Russian UDCs will be built according to modified designs

The universal amphibious assault ships (UDC) laid down in Kerch will be built according to revised designs, their displacement will be more than 30 thousand tons. This is reported by TASS with reference to a source in the shipbuilding industry.

According to the source, according to the improved performance characteristics, each UDC will carry 16 heavy helicopters, and will also receive carrier-based attack unmanned aerial vehicles. About which drones the source did not explain. In addition, the UDC dock chamber will accommodate up to 4 landing craft.

The tactical and technical characteristics of the ships have changed markedly during the design process. Their displacement has increased to more than 30 thousand tons, they will carry 16 helicopters of the entire range, as well as deck attack and reconnaissance drones. The ships will be able to carry up to 1 marines

- quotes the agency of the source. Earlier it was reported that the ships' displacement will be within 25 thousand tons.

He also clarified that the transfer of the first helicopter carrier to the Russian Navy is expected in 2025, and the second in 2027.

Recall that the laying of two UDCs of project 23900 took place on July 20, 2020 at the Zaliv shipyard in Kerch. The ships were named "Ivan Rogov" and "Mitrofan Moskalenko". The UDC project was developed by Zelenodolsk Design Bureau.

Comments

[Uncle lee]

Russian UDCs will be built according to modified designs

"I love our plans huge!" - V. Mayakovsky.

[Civil]

Of course, I'm terribly sorry, but are there any babos for beautiful ships? And what about naval heavy transport and combat helicopters?

[Paranoid50]

Quote: Civil

are there babos for beautiful ships?

There is. And just try to say that Project 1144 is not beautiful. I mean that on Monday the "Admiral Nakhimov" will already stand at the quay wall for completion afloat - within two weeks an operation is being carried out to take this handsome man out of the dock, with all the accompanying events.

[Piramidon]

Quote: Civil

And what about naval heavy transport and combat helicopters?

It was during the repost that the local writers made them hard. There is no word "heavy" in the source.

they will carry 16 helicopters of the entire range

[Beregovic_1]

And we have no light and medium weapons in our fleet. They're all heavy by default ....

[Tiksi-3]

Quote: Civil

Of course, I'm terribly sorry, but are there any babos for beautiful ships?

Excuse me, but for what purpose are you interested?

[Zaurbek]

Ka27 and 29 - light?

[antivirus]

Bosphorus - ours will be ....... and Busan. and Hawaii and Senegal? ............................................. .................................................. ..............

[Serg65]

Quote: antivirus

and Hawaii and Senegal?

These will be yours!

[Uncle lee]

Quote from Uncle Lee

V. Mayakovsky.

Who doesn't like the construction of the UDC? - Only to enemies!
Even V.V. Mayakovsky. and they hate that .... What to take from them - ..........

[Mikhail m]

And what about their engines? What will they deliver?

[Paranoid50]

Quote: Mikhail M

how are they with the engines? What will they deliver?

DD 16D49 - marching (2 * 6000)
GTE M90FR - afterburner (2 * 27500)

[Mikhail m]

I am glad that its own, albeit with a Ukrainian accent.

[dvina71]

Quote: Mikhail M

I am glad that its own, albeit with a Ukrainian accent.

Name the design bureaus in Ukraine that developed these engines?

[Mikhail m]

https://lenta.ru/news/2020/05/30/engine/

[dvina71]

Quote: Mikhail M

https://lenta.ru/news/2020/05/30/engine/

Even in this garbage it is written ... Developed in 1985 ..
What does that Ukraine have to do with it?

[Kurare]

Quote: Mikhail M

... albeit with a Ukrainian accent.

You probably meant with an accent from the USSR

[Kurare]

Quote: Paranoid50

DD 16D49 - marching (2 * 6000)
GTE M90FR - afterburner (2 * 27500)

Can you tell me what the cruising will be on the cruise? And then, something too "little" 2 x 6000 hp. by 30 thousand tons.

[Paranoid50]

Declare a full 22 knots.

[Shadow041]

Most likely there will be new diesel engines DDA12000

[Cyril G ...]

DDA - 12000 is not a diesel, it is a diesel unit for 2 diesels of 6000 hp each, 2 DDA-12000 are on the corvettes of Project 20380

[bayard]

Quote: Kurare

Can you tell me what the cruising will be on the cruise? And then, something too "little" 2 x 6000 hp. by 30 thousand tons.

Judging by the above pictures (top view), these CDCs have gas ducts for 4 turbines (for diesel engines, such gas ducts are useless). Therefore, the power plant will most likely not be from frigate 22350, but from the upcoming 22350M on turbopairs M-70 (14 l / s) FRU and M-000FR (90 l / s). In this case, the power of the sustainer turbines (27 x 500 l / s) is quite enough for a stroke of 2-14 knots. On afterburner the speed can reach 000 - 16 knots.
But on two diesel engines with a total capacity of 12 hp, the speed will be completely sluggish.

[Kurare]

Quote: bayard

But on two diesel engines with a total capacity of 12 hp, the speed will be completely sluggish.

This is exactly what I meant. Those. verified information about the power plant, whether it will be CODAG or COGAG, will appear rather closer to the end of the UDC construction.

[shtraib]

Quote: Michael m

And what about their engines? What will they deliver?

judging by the fact that rudders are painted on the mortgage, it will most likely be electric propulsion powered by a gas turbine engine

[bayard]

Quote: shtraib

judging by the fact that rudders are painted on the mortgage,

And judging by the posters presented during the laying, there are classic shafts.
There is some kind of muddy scam with these UDCs - there is no project, not even a draft one, the mortgage sections are extremely suspicious and do not look like those for such large ships, they could not even imagine a general view of the sane - what was on the posters is the fruit of the creations of a second-year vocational school at an elective computer graphics.
Misery, ugliness, unrealism, stupidity ... forgery.
But the money has already been allocated - 100 billion rubles.
How money was allocated for the construction of a Leader-class icebreaker at the shipyard in Bolshoy Kamen ... despite the fact that the shipyard is NOT READY for such a difficult job, for such a difficult order.
Neither technically, nor personnel, nor experience in building anything like that.
The saws screamed merrily.
The caps of the enthusiastic plebs flew joyfully.
- So we will win! - said the Khazars.
And the Polovtsians.
And the Pechenegs.
And coronovirus.
... And common sense with the laws of physics ...

[Eldorado]

DD 16D49 (sustainer), GTE M90FR (afterburner).

[Pereira]

The shipyard, I hope, was modernized? If anyone knows, tell us.

[Eldorado]

Partially yes. New pipeline shop, new machines.
Plus, they replaced kilometers of wiring, fire extinguishing systems, since everything is there since the times of the USSR. The roof flew ...
The modernization of production continues.

[Vladimir61]

Good luck to the shipbuilders and as they say: - "God help"!

[Alex 2020]

16 heavy helicopters

... what is it? Mi-26? There seems to be no more heavy helicopters in Russia. The Mi-8 \ 17 \ 38 family is from another opera. Or I don’t know something. Who has the exact info, enlighten.

[Wedmak]

Well, since this is a ship, we are naturally talking about sea turntables. The Ka family is fine. Both 27,31 and 52K ... And they are quite heavy for themselves, because the light ones are like Robinsons ...

[Eldorado]

Another newest deck-based helicopter Ka-65 "Lamprey".

[Wedmak]

This is if it is finalized by that time. He has not yet passed the state tests?

[Eldorado]

There is a photo of him in the shop. By 2027, I think the tests will be completed and the batch will be delivered to the UDC.

[Grits]

Quote: El Dorado

Another newest deck-based helicopter Ka-65 "Lamprey".

Only no one has even seen him in the picture yet.

[Boa kaa]

Quote: Gritsa

no one has even seen him in the picture yet

Only for you!!!

[bayard]

And the fuselage and the cockpit from the Ka-29 ... And that's great.
Is it really being worked on, or is it just talk?

[donavi49]

The navy has its own division and it is very individual.

For example, China has this Super Frelon - Z8 in almost 15 tons on fresh modifications.

The USA has a Super / Royal stallion at 30t +. The heaviest shipborne helicopter in the world.

The Navy has a Ka29 in 11t.

The light class is all sorts of Z-9 / Ka-226, etc.

[sav]

I wonder if there are any plans to "spoil" the Ka-60? It's kind of lighter, though the engine needs to be finished for it.

[Cympak]

For the Ka-60, domestic engines first need to start production of domestic engines.

[Wedmak]

By the way, judging by the displacement, the Mi-26 may also land. Closer to the stern there is enough space for this. It is clear that not basing, you cannot lower it into the hold, but it will be able to deliver the cargo.

[donavi49]

The Mi-26 could land and take off on 2 positions on the Mistral if that.

[Wedmak]

Front and back of the "island"? It’s so wonderful.

[Liam]

Landing on the deck of a helicopter is not a buggy procedure. You need both specific helicopters and trained pilots. So the Mi-26 on the UDC is only a theory that cannot be realized in practice without major modifications.

[donavi49]

Quite a normal option. Which is constantly being worked out. Just the other day, overland Chinese from 73 air group worked with the landing ship group.

But on the Mistral, Greek (!!!) chinooks and land groups sit down, who have no experience with ships (and the Greeks do not have ships where to land such a whopper, even for training).

Also here. Just an example - Mi-26s sit down near Novorossiysk on the UDC deck, fasten them, covered with covers and go to Syria. There they take off and go to Khimki on their own. This allows you to avoid disassembly and transfer such heavy helicopters to virtually anywhere in the world where there is a sea.

It is quite possible to put pressure on the country. It will easily use its right (recognized by the UN and Russia) - not to let the letter board through its airspace. The ship will go anywhere, using the right of freedom of navigation (which is so championed by the United States).

[Liam]

Quote: donavi49

Just an example - Mi-26s land at Novorossiysk

I meant that land helicopters and crews cannot conduct operational activities from the UDC, but to sit on the deck in port A and take off in port B is yes.

[Grits]

Quote: Liam

So the Mi-26 on the UDC is only a theory that cannot be implemented in practice without major modifications.

But the Mi-38 is quite realizable. And according to the classification of the bourgeoisie, it is clearly heavy.

[leks]

5 years is not bad if so.

[Xnumx vis]

Fine ! So in the Crimea-Kerch people have a job. God grant everything will be done on time and the ships will be delivered perfectly!

[Insurgent]

Quote: 30 vis

Fine ! So in the Crimea-Kerch people have a job.

Crimea, in terms of development, one can only envy in a kind way In September, traffic on Tavrida is already opened there ...

[Xnumx vis]

Quote: Insurgent

Quote: 30 vis

Fine ! So in the Crimea-Kerch people have a job.

Crimea, in terms of development, one can only envy in a kind way In September, traffic on Tavrida is already opened there ...

And the heart of the Sevastopol residents still hurts for the Donbass !!

[Bear040]

The UDC needs escort ships, at least frigates, and preferably destroyers, while Russia has only 6 new frigates for 4 fleets and the Caspian Flotilla. 3 frigates 11356 in the Black Sea Fleet, 2 frigates 22350 in the Northern Fleet and 1 frigate in the Baltic Fleet, built according to the obsolete project 1154 by Yaroslav the Wise. Of these 6 frigates, with grief in half, you can create an escort for only 1 UDC, if you put them together. Soviet-built ships are badly worn out and outdated; stealth technologies were not used during their construction.

[Wedmak]

The Pacific Fleet seems to be ordering 6 pieces of Project 22350. If the series continues, there will be an escort.

[Bear040]

6 corvettes 20380 are being laid at the Pacific Fleet to ensure the operation of strategic nuclear submarines and the protection of their bases, and even those are not yet being built, only a contract has been signed, or its signing has been announced.

[Wedmak]

Yes, exactly, I messed up the project.

[Grits]

20380 can only be escorted near their base. Moving away from them is fraught with ...

[Serg65]

Quote: Bear040

UDC needs escort ships, at least frigates, and preferably destroyers. Russia has only 6 new frigates for 4 fleets in service

Have the frigates stopped building yet?

[Bear040]

Do you have a lot of money and you can ensure the simultaneous construction of 2 UDCs and the escort they need ?! If you have a lot of money, why are the ships being built so slowly, and those who have gone for repairs have been waiting for it for years, and often they do not wait and leave for write-off ?! We have one of these who built a beautiful stone fence around the old house and then the money ran out, there was not enough money for the house ... So here too ... First, you need to provide the fleet with new frigates and destroyers, in the proper quantity, and then stutter about the UDC and aircraft carriers. ..And you propose to put the cart in front of the horse ...

[Serg65]

Quote: Bear040

And you propose to put the cart in front of the horse ...

Here's to understand where you put your horse, you need to understand the topic of military shipbuilding, and not drive gag!

Quote: Bear040

Do you have a lot of money and you can ensure the simultaneous construction of 2 UDCs and the escort they need ?!

Well, yes, we now have every gopher-ADMIRAL !!!
First, Mr. Admiral, let's figure out what an escort is and what kind of outfit is needed for it? I will be very pleased to hear your thoughts on this topic!

Quote: Bear040

can you ensure the simultaneous construction of 2 UDCs and the escort they need ?!

If you strain your admiral's brain even a little, then to your surprise you will see that the ships of the so-called. escorts are not only partly already built, but are continuing to be built!

Quote: Bear040

If you have a lot of money, why are ships built so slowly?

Mr. Admiral, do you not know that not only a shipyard is involved in the construction of a warship, but hundreds of replacement factories, many of which had to be built from scratch. Therefore, Mr. Admiral, the catch is not in money, but in the technological and industrial platform, which was lost in connection with the surrender of our country by the communists to the bourgeoisie!

[Beregovic_1]

3 frigates 11356 in the Black Sea Fleet, 2 frigates 22350 in the Northern Fleet and 1 frigate in the Baltic Fleet, built according to the obsolete project 1154 by Yaroslav the Wise. Of these 6 frigates, with grief in half, you can create an escort for only 1 UDC, if you put them together. Soviet-built ships are badly worn out and outdated; stealth technologies were not used during their construction.

1. The UDC is not an aircraft carrier, and there is no need to attach a full-fledged escort group like the "partners" to it. A frigate +2 corvettes for peacetime is quite enough .... 2. By the time the UDC goes into operation, they promise 6-8 frigates of project 22350 in service. 3. Project 11540 we have 2 ships. And they are quite good for their tasks, and are not at all outdated. One of the best anti-submarine warriors. 4. You exaggerate the importance of stealth technology, it is not particularly needed in the Baltic, the entire sea is shone through and visible.

[Boa kaa]

Quote: Beregovyhok_1

You exaggerate the importance of stealth technology, it is not particularly needed in the Baltic Sea, the whole sea is transparent and visible.

1. Stealth will never hurt anyone in modern warfare:
- before you shoot, you need to find the target. (inconspicuous);
- after firing the seeker, the anti-ship missile system must find this target, covered with interference (EW) ... and it is hardly noticeable and does not differ from interference ...
therefore stealth is needed.
2. The Baltic, of course, is shot through, ... but "across", not along!
With the collapse of the Union, we actually lost the system of basing on this MTVD. At the entrance - Baltiysk, and in the appendix - Kronstadt. And that's it! The rest is NATO and pro-NATO "neutrals". And how are you going to "view" the Baltic water area in wartime if you do not have access to it? Aviation? Through the territory of the Tribalts? from the NATO IA sitting on its airfields?
3. We really need Belarus both as an ally and as the umbilical cord of the KOR with the mainland. 104 km of the "Suwalkovsky Corridor" is, of course, a difficult task, but not unsolvable. And with the loss of the KOR, we will get a situation when a plug will be knocked out of the Baltic Straits and the OBK and KUGs of the USA, England, Germany, the Netherlands (NigerGLANDS) and other Polish shushvali can easily enter it ... From the Riga / Tallinn raid it is already easier to shoot at Peter , Smolensk, Moscow ...
So, we need the Baltic, the Baltic is important to us. And you shouldn't talk about her high
For - the spool is small, but expensive!

[Beregovic_1]

And how are you going to "view" the Baltic water area in wartime if you do not have access to it? Aviation? Through the territory of the Tribalts? with a sitting

it meant not by us, but NATO. And if they want to drown the frigate, then STNLS will not help, although, you are right, it will not hurt.

[Shadow041]

Promising does not mean getting married, my friend. We build frigates for a very long time, and warships are built not for peacetime, but for time H, so you need to treat their operation from the point of view of wartime, and not peacetime, during which you can load girls with champagne instead ammunition.

[Beregovic_1]

it is necessary to treat their exploitation from the point of view of wartime, not peacetime

This does not mean that the UDC has to run everywhere and everywhere with a crowd of frigates, corvettes and nuclear submarines? the frigate has other tasks as well. And then, as I understood you, when the precious UDC comes out, the entire fleet abandons everything and provides it with cover from attacks from the air and from under the water? If the UDC is used in an operation like the Syrian one, and possible opposition is expected, then of course the IBM must be balanced. In general, there is such a thing as an outfit of forces to perform a specific task, and there are people (sitting in the UBP of the fleet) who will determine how many ships should be in the IBM. And our wishes for an UDC escort based on foreign experience are a conversation about nothing. Sincerely.

[Bat039]

If in wartime the UDC goes to sea without an escort, this will be its last exit, without options. The ship is large, cannot defend itself

[bayard]

Quote: Bear040

Russia has only 6 new frigates for 4 fleets in service

By the time the first UDC is delivered in 2025 (which I have serious doubts about), all 8 22350 frigates will already be in service and at least 3 BOD 1155 have been modernized, plus the ones listed above, plus a dozen or a half corvettes ... for an escort.
And if there is not enough, then both "Admiral Nakhimov" and "Admiral Kuznetsov" will also be in service for several years.
Cope.

[Bat039]

Interesting. This means that you doubt the timeliness of the construction of the UDC, but you have no doubts about the timeliness of the construction of frigates, the dates of delivery of which to the fleet have been postponed more than once. Where is the logic?!

[bayard]

The logic is simple and obvious. Project 22350 was frozen at first due to the unavailability of the polyment-Redut air defense system, which was developed for a long time, but it was brought up, then due to the absence of the power plant (Ukraine's refusal to deliver already paid and even manufactured ones at Zorya-Mashproekt). But Rybinsk has already manufactured, tested and handed over to the customer the first set of domestic power plant for 22350, tests of the first frigate with a domestic power plant should begin no later than the beginning of next year.
That is why (its own power plant has already appeared) and the laying and construction of a series of frigates 22350 was resumed. All 8 units have already been laid, now they are talking about the possibility of expanding this series to 12 units (not counting the plans for 22350M).
Now about the timing.
If all the necessary components for the construction of ships are there (and they already exist), then the construction cycle of a ship of such a displacement is 4 - 5 years (5 years after the resumption of construction and about 4 years, when the industry has already filled its hand and cooperation has been debugged) - as it should be with serial construction.
For comparison, I will point out the construction period of the Black Sea frigates of Project 11356 - 3,5 years! Which is not surprising, because the industry has long mastered this project and similar frigates were previously built for the Indian Navy.
The last pair of this (22350) series was laid down this year, and therefore in 5 years they should definitely be in service.
7th and 8th in the series.
Together with all the preceding sisterships.
The domestic power plant will be run-in and tested on the 3rd and 4th ships of the series, then everything should go like clockwork. There are NO more reasons for delays.

Quote: Bat039

Interesting. So you doubt the timeliness of the construction of the UDC

But I really doubt the timeliness of the construction of these particular ships - such ships were not even built in the USSR. This does not mean that they are somehow incredibly complex, but they do not even have a finished project on them.
Even a sketch!
And we have already LAYED / welded the embedded sections ...
Judging by the available pictures (top view), there will be four gas turbines as a power plant (four powerful gas ducts that are not needed by diesel engines), which suggests that the UDC power plant from the promising "frigate" 22350M on turbopairs M-70FRU and M -90FR (14 l / s and 000 l / s, respectively). But such a power plant is only being designed, and while it is not in the hardware, the technical design for the 27M has not even been ordered yet. There is only a sketch.
So it turns out that two ships were laid down, but there is NO project for it, GEM - NO ... a lot of things are not yet available.
This happened before, when the ship began to be built, and the drawings for the project were brought up as soon as they were ready.
BUT IT WAS IN THE USSR!
And now, such attempts to build without a project and ready-made components lead to long-term construction like frigates 22350, corvettes 20380 ...
That is precisely why I am confident that the UDC, which has no analogues in the Soviet and Russian navies, may not be built within the stated time frame.
Or they can perform a miracle ...
"Whatever the rake teaches
... But the heart believes in miracles ... "

[Bat039]

Look how many years 20380 corvettes have been built, and after all, no Ukraine interfered with their construction and does not interfere, everything is domestic. So I see no reason to be sure that the frigates will begin to hand over to the fleet quickly, efficiently and on time.

[bayard]

Quote: Bat039

Look how many years corvettes 20380 have been under construction, and after all, no Ukraine interfered with their construction

A crude project with a high coefficient of novelty, project revisions, fine-tuning. But problems with these corvettes are also in the past - Kolomna diesel engines have been mastered, with a complete set of weapons (SAM, RLK) have been decided. The Amur plant is already able to build them at a pace of 3,5 - 4 years - from laying to commission.
Do not confuse the construction of a SERIAL ship, and a lead ship with a very high coefficient of novelty, when at the time of laying the hull there are still no air defense systems or many other components. For 22350, all these problems are a thing of the past.
Therefore, it is now necessary to build ships of this particular project 22350 and 20380 - they have been worked out, childhood diseases have been cured.
And if you start new projects every time, then the fleet of ships will never wait and will be content with a zoo of semi-ready prototypes.

[Bat039]

Well, if so, only the pace of construction today is still low. Corvette 20380 Stable lead ship is not, but it was built for 8 years. A similar corvette Strogy is planned to be built in 7 years. This is a very long time, especially for such a relatively small ship. In the USSR, destroyers were built 2-3 times faster

[bayard]

As I say - a crude project, a high coefficient of novelty, constant changes in the project during construction, unsettled cooperation, delays of subcontractors.
They (the ships) were treated for "childhood diseases" for a very long time.
Such ships should be built (from bookmark to delivery) 2,5 - 3 years. The Amur plant is now ready to build them in 3,5 - 4 years.
I think he can do it.

[bayard]

That's right.
That is why it was then decided to lay a series of 6 export frigates for the Black Sea Fleet - 11356. But only 3 of these were built.
Fussing with the head, fine-tuning, testing, revision of the project is an indispensable headache with SUCH coefficient of novelty.
It was wiser to immediately lay the six 11356 and calmly engage in a new project without prejudice to the combat readiness of the fleet. Then the Black Sea Fleet would have received at least all 6 of its frigates before the Ukrainian coup.
But now at 22350 there are no critical technical problems left - only to test our own power plant and continue the series until the 22350M project is ready for laying.

[alex80]

Quote: Wedmak

The Pacific Fleet seems to be ordering 6 pieces of Project 22350. If the series continues, there will be an escort.

During Shoigu's visit, it was about 6 pieces of corvettes 20380, not frigates 22350.

[Comrade Michael]

Alla? The costs of education and medicine will be cut ... And then they write fairy tales. I will unsubscribe from this gibberish.

[dvina71]

Quote: Comrade Mikhail

The costs of education and medicine will be cut ...

And when did they cut it? Total expenses honey + arr = defense spending .. Even a little more.

[Ryaruav]

where are we going to land? we do not have a cmp like in the usa. these ships are very expensive and are designed for large fleets which the Russian navy is not

[Bear040]

Where to land there. BDK and UDC are needed to cover Kaliningrad and Sakhalin and the Kuriles and Crimea and Kamchatka. Another thing is that a good escort is needed for the UDC and BDK, and one should have thought about its construction before the start of the UDC construction.

[Wedmak]

The main word here is universal. The same supply of the base in Syria, one such for a flight can bring a lot of goodies.

[Bear040]

This is understandable, but any dry cargo ship will do for Syria today, since no one interferes with the delivery of goods from the Russian Federation to Syria.In case of opposition to the Syrian express at sea, from the military aviation and the military fleet of a potential enemy (Turkey, for example), an escort will be required from the Russian warships , otherwise not a single transport will reach Syria, they will either be captured or drowned.

[Wedmak]

since no one interferes with the delivery of goods from the Russian Federation to Syria

This is because they carry them on military large landing ships and those purchased on fast dry cargo ships. But our BDK has been for many years, the Grens have just entered service and there are only two of them. You can't get enough fuel for an escort to drive frigates. This large landing craft will be able to stand up for itself, and carry a large cargo. As you know, the more you carry by sea, the cheaper. Also, the benefit is important.

[Bear040]

BDK can be driven without an escort only as long as no one interferes with their passage, as you will not understand. In the event of an enemy attack by a BDK without an escort, this is an easy target. There is no anti-ship missile system on the BDK, there is no air defense missile system on the BDK, there is no PLUR on the BDK, it is almost defenseless. Yes, on the project 775 large landing craft, if the installation of the MLRS Grad, but this is to support the marines on the shore, and not for naval combat, on Grenah this is not.

[Wedmak]

In the event of an enemy attack by a large landing craft without an escort

In the event of such an attack, other types of weapons and power will talk. And for holding at distances, 16 turntables and two AK-630s are enough.

[Bear040]

Not everything is as straightforward as you think. The 20th century has become a clear example of the fact that local wars are possible without the use of nuclear weapons. The Turks in Syria shot down our Su-24, so what ?! The Turks, of course, washed away, they lost the helicopter, and the columns of trucks transporting Syrian oil to Turkey burned well, but no one fired nuclear warheads at Ankara.

[Wedmak]

Who said about nuclear warheads? Why go straight to dust? In fact, no one threatens us on the Syrian Express in peacetime. UDC is only cost savings when transporting goods. In the military, there will be an escort by itself.
And by the way, the very effect of the presence of a large warship with a landing force and a dozen and a half combat helicopters on board does not have a weak projection of force. It is even stupid to control the area of ​​responsibility with the help of helicopters. And if one of them goes to the Pacific Fleet, the Japanese will simply squeal with "delight."

[Bear040]

Now the UDC will not give any savings, the operation and construction of civilian dry cargo ships is cheaper. This is for civilians a large UDC without escort force, for the military it is an easy target

[Xnumx vis]

Quote: Bear040

Now the UDC will not give any savings, the operation and construction of civilian dry cargo ships is cheaper. This is for civilians a large UDC without escort force, for the military it is an easy target

Your advice is "to cancel the construction of the UDC"

[Bear040]

I am against not completing the construction of the ships, the construction of which has already begun. Money has been invested in them, and officials should be responsible for money down the drain not only with their posts, but also with freedom. But the untimely start of construction of the UDC is obvious to me. Now it would be more useful to build several frigates, and after saturating the fleet with frigates, think about the UDC. Yes, the amphibious forces of the fleet also need to be updated, but as for me, now it would be better to limit ourselves to the construction of large landing craft, smaller in size, but equipped with firing points to support the landing

[Alex777]

Argue, argue ... What's the point?
Target, not target, carry, do not carry ...
1) Nothing was said about the armament of this UDC.
2) The development of the UVVP aircraft is underway and included in the GPV.
3) A displacement of more than 30 tons "thickly hints" at what the ship may end up with.
And note that this UDC does not have a nasal ramp. Which is a bit strange for the Russian approach to the construction of landing ships.
The good news is that they work in silence. When done, we'll see what the result is.
Yapi also built helicopter carriers in 30 tons.
And now they are quickly being converted into light aircraft carriers. With the F-35B on board.
And no one was surprised by this. Everything was clear from the very beginning.
https://ria.ru/20180821/1526958518.html

[Grits]

Quote: Alex777

The development of the UVVP aircraft is underway and is included in the GPV.

Something is not heard in the blogosphere about this intelligible.

[Alex777]

That is why I attached the link at the end.
Let those who, I hope, develop them be silent. If only they did.
Opinions about the need for UVVP are polarized.
IMHO, a lightweight fighter with UVVP is what you need.
With the current level of technology, it can be done well.

[Wedmak]

Nothing has really been heard about the UVVP plane. Maybe it will be born, but whether it will go into series is also a question.
The UDC model shows at least two Marine Carapaces, most likely there are four of them. But they are unlikely to abandon the near-zone air defense system.
There is no bow ramp, but in the stern there is a large hangar, as they say, for 4 boats. What kind of boats is also in general a question.
A light aircraft carrier with an airborne air force on board ... well ... not that impossible, but also somehow doubtful.

[Alex777]

And we have neither the strength, nor the means, nor the organizational structure for the heavy AB.

[Bear040]

Even if you are right and these will be light aircraft carriers, they need a frigate escort, without it they will be floating graves of the marines and carrier-based aircraft. An aircraft carrier without an escort of warships is just a corpse!

[Alex777]

An aircraft carrier without an escort of warships is just a corpse!

Warships without an aircraft carrier are just corpses.

Even if you are right and it will be light aircraft carriers

I hope the truth is somewhere near.

[Bear040]

Combat ships with long-range and medium-range air defense systems for aviation are a hard nut to crack. Although, what you write is not about anything, since judging by what we see now, we may have aircraft carriers, but there is no escort for them.Without an escort, build at least a copy of the American Nimitz, it will be useless

[Alex777]

Combat ships with long-range and medium-range air defense systems for aviation is a tough nut to crack

Yes. Sure. And the States according to Zadornov - "well ...".
And along with them are the Britons, and the Franks, and the Spaniards, and the Turks, and the Japanese, and the Koreans, and the Indians, and the Chinese ...
And why are they building aircraft carriers?
As for the long-range air defense system.
How many such ships do we have? 3x1164 and 1x1144.
And modern aviation is able to launch weapons without entering the coverage area of ​​these air defense systems.

[Bear040]

Don't compare our fleet with the US fleet. The United States has more than 70 destroyers of the Arlie Burke class, we do not have a single destroyer of a new construction, and the Soviets can only scare the crows, their entire ammunition stock is 8 long ago not modern anti-ship missiles Mosquito, with a maximum range of 240 km along a high trajectory, where 100% of them will be shot down by air defense enemy, and launch on a low trajectory is possible only at 90 km, which is not relevant for a long time. And even this old thing in the Russian Federation the cat cried. Well, yes, you have aviation that can launch missiles without entering the coverage area of ​​the S-400 air defense system ?! This is only possible if you launch Tomahawk cruise missiles, or similar missiles, but not anti-ship missiles.

[Alex777]

Your knowledge level is impressive!
Successful weekend!

[Bear040]

Well, yes, looking at the disadvantages that they taught me here, you begin to understand how much office plankton is making generals here. My weekend is over. Was on a short vacation. Service tomorrow. I have the honor.

[Xscorpion]

The Americans have a little more than 50 destroyers in service. All those below the IIA series are written off. And on the entire IIA series and above, there are no anti-ship missiles from the word at all and in fact are defenseless even against our MRKs. And so far there are no plans to install them there, since Harpoons are removed with weapons, and new ones have not yet been developed, the Tomahawks in the anti-ship missile version are still not visible even on the horizon, they were promised by the 30th year only, but there is not a fact yet. And do not confuse our and Western classifications. Our frigates are quite a destroyer , and our corvettes are quite frigates by their standards. Do not forget that in the west almost all ships, proudly called corvettes, in fact boats, with a displacement of 300-600 tons. Even our MRKs are much larger in size and armed an order of magnitude higher than theirs corvettes.

[Alex777]

Well, let's go in order.

And on the entire series IIA and above, there are no anti-ship missiles from the word in general and in fact are defenseless even against our RTOs

About Tomahawks, which are modified for use as anti-ship missiles, have a range of 1800 km and can be retargeted from fighters in flight, and broadcasting a picture in real time, you must know?
All long-range air defense missiles on Berks can be used as hypersonic anti-ship missiles. Guidance is provided by carrier-based aircraft. You know that too?

Tomahawks in the anti-ship missile variant are still not visible even on the horizon.

The Tomahawk BGM-109 B / E anti-ship missile entered service as early as 1983.
https://missilery.info/missile/bgm109b-e
Of course, there are more modern modifications now.

On January 27, 2015, the Raytheon corporation conducted demonstration tests of a modification of the BGM-109E Tomahawk Block IV (TLAM-E) cruise missile, a ship-to-ground, dual-use class. As a result, a very impressive video was released in which a rocket launched from the destroyer Kidd (DDG 100), located near the island of San Nicholas off the coast of California, having covered tens, if not hundreds of miles above the sea, flooded with bright sunlight, in escorting the carrier-based fighter-attack aircraft F / A-18 Hornet in the final section hit the target vessel MST 9301, loaded with containers. Apparently, Hornet not only accompanied the Tomahawk, but corrected its flight and gave it target designation on the final segment of the trajectory. According to a Pentagon spokesman, this modification of the missile will be able to strike at sea targets at ranges of up to 1000 miles, that is, about 1852 km.

And finally.

Do not forget that in the west, almost all ships, proudly called corvettes, in fact boats, with a displacement of 300-600 tons

What exactly are you talking about the West? In Iran, yes, there is such a tendency ...
Well, maybe the Swedish "Visby" ....
And the program of the new European corvette is different:

According to the joint tactical and technical requirements of the Italian and French Navy, presented in June 2019, The EPC corvette must have an "open modular architecture", a standard displacement of no more than 3300 tons and a total displacement of no more than 3500 tons, a length of 100-110 meters and a draft of no more than 5-5,5 meters. The corvette is planned to be developed in three main versions:
- a multipurpose corvette with the priority tasks of countering surface targets and providing air defense, with the ability to conduct anti-aircraft missiles - it is reported that the requirements of the Italian Navy for this option include equipping medium-range air defense systems MBDA CAMM-ER and a towed GAS;
- "ocean" corvette with a long cruising range (requirement of 10 thousand miles at a speed of 14 knots) with mostly anti-ship missile weapons;
- patrol ship.

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4026612.html
https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4057092.html
https://topwar.ru/65551-korvety-vmesto-kreyserov.html

[Alex777]

I didn't have time to add that all of the above is a good incentive to actively develop our fleet. And there is a lot to do.

[Xscorpion]

Ask in what year the 109V / E were decommissioned, and I said that the tests of the new one promise to be completed by the year 30. While it is not even on the horizon, then they hit some kind of stationary sea target, this is not an indicator of anti-ship missiles They do not have anti-ship missiles from the word at all. Air defense missiles, although theoretically can be used as anti-ship missiles, at very short distances and in terms of firepower, they can only scare a few crew members, next to which it will explode. You can imagine a difference of several dozen a kilogram of a high-explosive fragmentation warhead of an air defense missile and a penetrating high-explosive warhead of hundreds of kilograms of anti-ship missiles? And I mean European corvettes. The fact that they are trying to develop something normal is not interesting to me yet. As long as they have these boats only, not corvettes. Most European countries have NATO. We are talking about the present time, not the distant future.

[Alex777]

Oh everyone ...

They have no RCC from the word at all.

Recall that in May 2018, the NSM anti-ship missile system presented by the consortium Raytheon and Kongsberg also won the US Navy's OTH WS (Over-the-Horizon Weapon Systems) tender to equip the "littoral" LCS warships of the American fleet. In addition to the LCS ships, the NSM missile selected under the OTH WS program should also be used to equip the promising American FFG (X) frigates, and, possibly, other surface ships of the US Navy.
https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3637489.html

[Xscorpion]

Are you serious? And when will the launch vehicles be built for it? At least one American ship, which is armed with it? After 2 years against this dubious statement? Well, of course, the achievement was chosen by the ancient Norwegian missile. To arm coastal defense ships. "Will they break everything to put this dubious anti-ship missile system? I say again, they do not have anti-ship missiles at the moment, there are only a few rusty harpoons left on a few rusty Ticonderogs."

[Beregovic_1]

Read about the radio horizon. "Partners" shoot at our KUG from 30-40 km. And at this distance, the "superhornets" will approach, hiding behind the horizon, make a hill, capture targets with the heads of "Harms" and "harpoons", after which the KUG has a couple of minutes to repulse a hundred missiles. And the cruisers you listed are absolutely defenseless against such an attack, since they are armed only with missiles with radio correction, that is, they cannot shoot beyond the horizon at the missile carrier. More or less, frigates of project 22350 can fight off an air attack, since they are armed with a 9M96 rocket with an active homing head capable of shooting beyond the radio horizon, radars that work not in a limited sector, like cruisers, but 360 degrees, BIUS, capable of distributing targets between the ships of the KUG and 16 target guidance channels. But these frigates also need an AWACS aircraft (helicopter) for early detection of enemy aircraft. On the UDC, such an aircraft will be in the subject ...

[Boa kaa]

Quote: Bear040

we may have aircraft carriers, but there is no escort for them

Did you look at the shipbuilding program until 2030 or did you go out to chat?

[Boa kaa]

Quote: Bear040

Now it would be more useful to build some frigates

1. Frigates are built by Peter, UDC - Crimea.
2. You are able to solve the problem of building a ship composition of the fleet only by a sequential method, does the parallel method shock you?
3. The tide is not yet able (yet!) To collect 22350 because of the logistics of supplying "minced meat" for such an engineering structure ... The time will come when it will forge Russia's naval sword. So far, only "armor".

[Boa kaa]

Quote: Bear040

for civilians a large UDC without an escort is force, for a military it is an easy target

A strange statement, however.
It is like comparing a cart to a war chariot: both are means of transporting riders, but in different conditions.
Then, one should not forget that the main weapon of the UDC / BDK is its DIRECTORIES! And he solves the main task on the enemy coast, not at sea.
Under certain conditions, the UDC / BDK has a much greater combat value than a missile cruiser (!), When it is necessary to solve the problem of "opening a second front", unblocking a land group pressed to the sea, etc.

[Grits]

Quote: Wedmak

And if one of them goes to the Pacific Fleet, the Japanese will simply squeal with "delight."

The Kurils are completely without troops, without protection. And no people at all. Therefore, there needs a base somewhere on Matua or, at worst, such a UDC ply along the islands

[Alex777]

The Kurils are completely without troops, without protection.

And there are Bastions in the Kuril Islands, and Balls cover them, and the air defense has been updated, and the Su-35s are on duty. That's it, for a minute ...

[Grits]

Quote: Alex777

And there are Bastions in the Kuril Islands, and Balls cover them, and the air defense has been updated, and the Su-35s are on duty.

And they are all located on the southern islands. I think you know the range of the bastion. Therefore, it is not surprising that American ships and planes calmly pass through the numerous straits between the deserted islands in the Sea of ​​Okhotsk. Which, by the way, on the coast also does not have a single base and not a single port with a warship at the pier.

[Alex777]

And they are all located on the southern islands. I think you know the range of the bastion.

I don’t know for sure. This information is under the heading. But various open sources claimed that up to 800 km.

[Wedmak]

The Kurils are completely without troops, without protection. And no people at all.

That is, what is there at least for the division of Bastions and Balov - is it without people and without protection? Even in my opinion there are more people there, it seems they were throwing something else.

[seregin-s1]

Kunashir, Lagunnoye lake. In Google the photo is fresher.

[Boa kaa]

Quote: Bear040

on the BDK project 775 if the installation of the MLRS Grad, but this is to support the marines on the shore, and not for naval combat, on Grenah this is not.

You are just a storehouse of ... absurdities for me!
1. Have you ever seen the A-215 shooting at the "buoy field"? across the water area. Yes, "not aiming", but 320 NURSs very high quality "foam water". Hitting a 122mm shell on the side of any NK is unlikely to please him.
2. About pr.1171.1. Gren has 2 helicopters: this is usually the Ka-29, but there can be Ka-52K as well. And this is very serious.
3. In wartime, in order to increase the combat stability of the BDK / UDC, amphibious assault weapons will be installed (mounted) on the upper deck. (Nona, Pine, etc.) We have already worked out such questions. Kitaisa, so they generally do not like this method!

[Bat039]

NURS is not an anti-ship missile and the range is not the same and the accuracy is not the same and there is no homing, from the word AT ALL.

[Vladimir Mashkov]

The ships are laid, under construction. And this is good. And for 5-7 years of construction, many adjustments will be made: life goes on and everything develops. We hope the construction time will not be too long.

[bars1]

It would be better to amphibious ships, such as those laid down in 2019. built in Kerch. They are lighter, simpler and more likely that the Gulf would handle them within a reasonable time frame. Would pump up muscles, so to speak. And then it could be for 30000 tons. take

[ccsr]

Quote: bars1

... Would pump up muscles, so to speak. And then it could be for 30000 tons. take

Yes, "Zaliv" seems to be in good condition now - not like under the Ukrainian government:

More than 140 hectares of the area occupied by the Zaliv shipyard includes an extensive production and auxiliary infrastructure. The enterprise is implementing a comprehensive program for its restoration and modernization, within the framework of which a large amount of work is being carried out.
The block of hull shops No. 1, restored after an emergency condition, is now an important production site of the plant, this year the administrative part of shops No. 6, 12, 32 has also undergone its repair transformations.
For two months, renovation work was underway at this facility, today the buildings, which have not been renovated since Soviet times, have noticeably changed. According to the chief engineer of the plant, Dmitry Kabirov, the glazing has been completely replaced, 210 windows have been installed, more than seven thousand square meters of facades have been repaired, and the administrative premises have been redecorated.
In parallel with these works, the enterprise is also restoring internal plant roads. At present, more than two kilometers have already been asphalted, and work in this direction will continue.
Also, during the preparation of the plant for the implementation of new promising projects, much attention was paid to the reconstruction of industrial communications: the power grids of the slipway, outfitting embankment No. 3 and BKTs-1 were restored. The work included a complete replacement of valves and defective sections of pipelines for industrial gases (oxygen, acetylene, compressed air). 1,5 km of power cables and 36 power supply cabinets were replaced.
The repair work also affected the crane equipment - 11 portal and 12 overhead cranes were painted according to the full scheme.

28.05.2020

https://bospor.com.ru/news/5824.shtml

[Wolf]

The construction period is 5-7 years? It's a lot . Probably someone did not complete the grid planning scheme for the building? The construction time depends on the quality of the project and the grid implementation planning. You will spend more time on design and less on project implementation. I’ll repeat it for 5-7 years.

[Wwk7260]

if they build it in 8-10, it will already be good, only this is hard to believe.

[IgorIP]

8-10 years old it will be an unprecedented success! With the construction time of corvettes in 6-7 years, 8-10 for a large UDC - a fairy tale ... unfortunately

[xomaNN]

The usual procedure in the ship industry on the lead ship of the project. Bookmarking takes place when the CD as a whole is almost 90% complete. The main thing is that the metal cutting of the body parts (it is now computerized) should be according to unchanged drawings. In Zelenodolsk KB, drawings are usually in computer form. And changes in the documentation for operations that will start in 2-3 years are quite acceptable.

[Al_lexx]

The project is impressive.
Here it would be necessary and to attach the data on the grouping of protection.
Let's see, we'll see.
By the way, it's not bad news for those who like to wail that we have all surface mosquitoes.
However, it is obvious that for such a scow, you need at least a couple of frigates and heels of corvettes. Support vessels - of course.

[Pavel57]

Will the project be finalized after the start of metal cutting?

[IC]

Those. solemnly laid down new ships without a final project. The planned construction period is 7 years. From the experience of projects in recent years, you can expect 10 years.

[shtraib]

Quote: bayard

Quote: shtraib

judging by the fact that rudders are painted on the mortgage,

And judging by the posters presented during the laying, there are classic shafts.
There is some kind of muddy scam with these UDCs - there is no project, not even a draft one, the mortgage sections are extremely suspicious and do not look like those for such large ships, they could not even imagine a general view of the sane - what was on the posters is the fruit of the creations of a second-year vocational school at an elective computer graphics.
Misery, ugliness, unrealism, stupidity ... forgery.
But the money has already been allocated - 100 billion rubles.
How money was allocated for the construction of a Leader-class icebreaker at the shipyard in Bolshoy Kamen ... despite the fact that the shipyard is NOT READY for such a difficult job, for such a difficult order.
Neither technically, nor personnel, nor experience in building anything like that.
The saws screamed merrily.
The caps of the enthusiastic plebs flew joyfully.
- So we will win! - said the Khazars.
And the Polovtsians.
And the Pechenegs.
And coronovirus.
... And common sense with the laws of physics ...