Military Review

Tsushima. "Shell version": history of origin

328

Battleship "Emperor Nicholas I" after Tsushima


Dear readers, I am opening a series of articles devoted to the analysis of the "shell version" as the reason for the defeat of the Russian fleet in the Tsushima battle.

The "shell version" is one of those themes of the Russo-Japanese War that always causes heated debate. According to one side, the shortcomings of Russian shells became one of the most important reasons for the defeat at Tsushima, while the other side refutes this opinion.

The "shell version" itself first appeared in the statements of the participants in the Tsushima battle, describing the monstrous effect of the action of Japanese shells and very modest damage from the Russians against their background.

So, in the testimony of Rear Admiral N.I. Nebogatov, he said that he saw with his own eyes the battleships Mikasa and Fuji the next day after the battle with practically no damage: “... as if these ships had been on practice shooting the day before, and not participated in a fierce battle. " And he noticed one small, practically round hole in the Mikasa's side from our shell, which probably "split into large pieces without causing any damage around, except for a broken water pipe and damaged paint." And the admiral names the reasons for the unsatisfactory operation of our ammunition:

1. Unsuccessful design of fuses, as a result of which 75% of our shells did not explode.

2. A small explosive charge in the projectile.

Warrant officer G. Ungern-Sternberg, who participated in Tsushima on the same battleship "Emperor Nicholas I" as N. I. Nebogatov, noted that the effect of Russian shells was lower than that of Japanese shells, since ours did not cause large fires. but the enemy, although they did not pierce the armor, but "getting into the side, deployed everything in their path, breaking into small fragments."

Rear Admiral OA Enquist believed that the Japanese shells were more than twice as powerful as the Russian ones, since their walls are almost twice as thin and they contain almost twice as much explosive, which is more powerful than our pyroxylin. In addition, he noted the advantage of Japanese ammunition in detonation from the slightest obstacle, as opposed to the Russians, which explode with a long delay after impact or do not explode at all, as well as in the creation of a huge number of fragments "small, penetrating everywhere and destroying everything in their path" as opposed to Russians, who create a small number of fragments during the explosion.

Lieutenant Taube, who served on the coastal defense battleship General-Admiral Apraksin, estimated the Japanese shells much higher than the Russians, citing as an argument that they "burst into the water, when they explode, they apparently give a huge amount of fragments, heated to a very high temperature, the fragments have a huge destructive power. "

The senior officer of the cruiser "Oleg" Captain 2nd Rank Posokhov noted the advantage of Japanese shells in that their destructive power does not depend on speed and is the same at any distance. And even with close explosions, they hit the enemy with shrapnel, shock waves and splashes of water. "It is very insulting and bitter that we could not come up with such a simple idea." In his opinion, adopting landmines similar to Japanese ones would be much more useful than adopting armor-piercing shells with an armor-piercing (Makarov) cap.

The flagship navigator, Captain 2nd Rank De-Livron, who was on the battleship "Prince Suvorov", compares the nature of the holes from Russian and Japanese shells:

Japanese shells burst into countless pieces of various sizes, and the force of their breaking is such that these pieces not only knock out people in a large space, but spoil the guns and pierce the side, pipes, fans, making them like a sieve, and knock down masts, rigging , drives and wires ... Our shells pierce a smooth, round hole in the side, slightly larger than the diameter of the shell, which is easy to plug with a plug. Thinking that the Japanese shells are the same, our squadron has prepared a lot of various sizes of wooden plugs for hammering holes, meanwhile the Japanese shells act more like a mine, and not as live force, like ours; bursting from touching the board or some object, they pierce the board with the force of an explosion or gases and make a ragged hole: the board cracks and turns out in that place in pieces and a large irregular concavity is obtained around, making it difficult to patch up such a hole with anything. When comparing the hole in the Aurora from our 75-mm projectile, which hit the side in the German Sea during the Gul incident, with the hole in the 75-mm Japanese shell, a huge difference is visible ...

Artillery officer of the cruiser "Aurora" Lieutenant Losev is convinced of the superiority of the Japanese shells over the Russians due to the powerful high-explosive effect, while the Russian shells, in his opinion, almost did not cause any damage.

Battleship "Eagle" after Tsushima:


The opinion of numerous Tsushima veterans about the weakness of the action of domestic shells was supported by the results of tests of land mines, which were conducted by Rear Admiral K.P. Jessen.

However, the attentive reader may immediately be alerted by the fact that the "shell version" has arisen after Tsushima. But Tsushima was preceded by several major naval battles, in which both the Russians and the Japanese used the same shells!

Let's see how the effect of the Japanese shells on the ships of the 1st Pacific Squadron and the Vladivostok cruiser squadron was evaluated.

In a report on the results of the battle on January 27, 1904, Vice Admiral O. V. Stark wrote that the effect of the explosions of Japanese shells was weaker than expected, they created small fragments and did not cause fires. Even the thinnest armor was never pierced by either high-explosive or armor-piercing shells.

Senior officer of "Poltava" Captain 2nd Rank SI Lutonin was sure that our shells at distances of up to 20 cables penetrate the enemy's armor and hit vital parts of the ship. And during the battle, the Japanese, obviously, received great damage.

Japanese shells, either 80 or 20 cable, act the same way, break at the first touch to the casing and destroy 1/2-inch sheets, and where they meet a thickness of 2 inches, they are powerless.

Isn't that so, the picture is very different from the one painted by the veterans of Tsushima?

According to the results of the battle in the Yellow Sea, SI Lutonin added that hits on the armor led to very minor damage. Three 12 "shells left only imprints with radiance on the armor belt, and 6" shells hitting the armor did not even leave any cracks or potholes, but only a glow. The fragments from the Japanese shells were small and did not do much harm, their strength was barely enough to pierce thin unarmored bulkheads.

But "Poltava" was one of the most damaged of our ships in that battle! But in the description of the impact of Japanese shells, there is not even a tenth of the horror with which the memories of the Tsushima participants were filled.

Battleship "Poltava" after the battle in the Yellow Sea, photo taken from the battleship "Peresvet":


There was no doubt about the effectiveness of the Russian shells, and here again we see a sharp contrast with Tsushima. For example, the commander of Sevastopol, Captain 1st Rank N.O. Essen testified that many of the guns on Mikas were silent, in the middle of the ship there was a through hole from our 12 "shell," near the conning tower everything was torn apart, part of the ship is smoke. "

Now let's look at the impressions of the battle in the Korea Strait.

Captain 2nd Rank NL Klado, who personally saw the damaged "Russia" and "Thunderbolt", concluded that in 5 hours of battle, the Japanese, who had a triple superiority in artillery, were able to inflict only superficial damage without causing damage to the vital parts of our ships ... Only artillery, not protected by armor, suffered. And the huge damage to the unarmored parts of the ship, which made a strong impression on those who saw them, were all repaired in just a month by the very modest repair capabilities of Vladivostok.

Cruiser "Russia" after the battle in the Korean Strait:


And even K. P. Jessen, who after Tsushima spoke of "the complete invalidity of the high-explosive shells of our fleet in comparison with the Japanese", reported in a report on the battle in the Korean Strait that our shells "apparently produced considerable damage on enemy ships "And" it was clearly seen that the enemy ships suffered greatly. "

So why did the assessment of the impact of projectiles change so radically after Tsushima? (I remind you that there are no facts indicating the use of any different shells in Tsushima.)

There are two reasons for this.

The first reason is a consequence of the drowning of armored ships by the action of artillery, which had not happened before in this war (remember, "Rurik" was sunk by its own crew). And the impressions of the destructive action of the Japanese shells were inextricably linked with this fact. It turns out that this was a purely emotional reason, because from the point of view of formal logic, the sinking of ships does not at all prove the superiority of shells, if only because there was no sufficient data for analysis on the number of hits.

The second reason is that, while in captivity on Japanese ships, the Russians first saw the results of their own shells. And here it is worth noting that they could see only a very small part of the destruction, so this reason is very subjective.

As a result, it can be stated that the "shell version" arose on the basis of impressions from the external destruction of ships, which only very remotely reflected the effectiveness of Russian and Japanese shells.

Nevertheless, the explanation of the Tsushima catastrophe through the superiority of Japanese shells, 10-20 years after the battle, was firmly rooted in the scientific and journalistic literature.

In a 7-volume work historical The commission admitted that "the shells were very bad ... equipped with a microscopic charge of explosives, which has a small blasting force", and land mines equipped with armor-piercing tubes exploded only from hits in the armor.

Admiral A. V. Shatl in 1923 in an article for the "Marine collection" declared at least 150-fold fire superiority of the Japanese fleet, which predetermined the outcome of Tsushima.

V. Ye. Egoriev in the book "Operations of Vladivostok cruisers in the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-1905." (published in 1939) devoted a separate chapter to the problems of the materiel of the Russian fleet, including the problems with shells: "One of the most important direct causes that contributed to the defeat of the Russian fleet were shells."

Thus, the "shell version" was finally formed, explaining Tsushima by the huge superiority of the Japanese shells over the Russians. Our fleet could not oppose anything to "flying mines" and "liquid fire".
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  1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 August 2020 12: 11 New
    31
    Well, a very interesting start. I'll wait for the continuation while arguing ... let's say it's early.
    I will only point out some of the nuances
    There was no doubt about the effectiveness of Russian shells

    Did not have. Because both in the Yellow Sea and at Ulsan, our sailors believed that they had caused serious damage to the enemy. Alas, in practice this has not been confirmed ... Moreover, in Tsushima our, perhaps, also believed that they were able to pat the Japanese until they saw the entire Japanese fleet assembled on May 15.
    Let me remind you that there are no facts indicating the use of shells of different design in Tsushima.

    There are no facts, but there is evidence - remember the same Semenov. What is important - "other projectiles" could have turned out if, for example, the Japanese would shoot at the ZhM mainly with armor-piercing, with a smaller charge (but with the same Yichiuin fuse), and in Tsushima - more high-explosive. But this is all reasoning, let's wait for the version of the respected author.
    1. rytik32
      13 August 2020 12: 42 New
      13
      Andrei, good afternoon!
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      What is important - "other projectiles" could have turned out if, for example, the Japanese would shoot at the ZhM mainly with armor-piercing, with a smaller charge (but with the same Yichiuin fuse), and in Tsushima - more high-explosive

      You rightly noticed that the Japanese used armor-piercing in ZhM more often than in Tsushima.
      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 August 2020 12: 49 New
        +7
        Good afternoon! hi
        I really look forward to continuing. It will be interesting:)))) drinks
      2. Dr. Frankenstucker
        Dr. Frankenstucker 13 August 2020 13: 58 New
        +4
        Quote: rytik32
        You rightly noticed that the Japanese used armor-piercing in ZhM more often than in Tsushima.

        so, it seems, after Shantung, the Japanese introduced a ban on BB 12d. They believed they were the reason for the bursting of the guns.
        1. rytik32
          13 August 2020 14: 05 New
          +2
          That's right!
          And about this will be in the 3rd part
          1. Dr. Frankenstucker
            Dr. Frankenstucker 13 August 2020 14: 10 New
            +1
            got it. In general, on the periphery of the "projectile version" there is also, kmk, and the problem of fire control among the Japanese)
          2. Krasnoyarsk
            Krasnoyarsk 16 August 2020 13: 21 New
            0
            Quote: rytik32
            That's right!
            And about this will be in the 3rd part

            Will there be a comparative analysis of the effects of pyroxylin and shimose?
            The article interested me. We look forward to continuing.
            Auto RU hi
            1. rytik32
              16 August 2020 22: 29 New
              +1
              There will be a comparison of the characteristics of explosives in the next article, and then there will be a comparison of the action of shells.
    2. blackice
      blackice 14 August 2020 01: 53 New
      +3
      I don’t remember who I read it, but the book contained facts of penetration by Russian shells of Japanese ships without a subsequent explosion. And the blame was put on the detonators.
      Photos were presented in which holes from hits in Japanese ships were simply clogged with cuts of logs and painted over.
      Unfortunately, I read it for a long time, when I was young, so I don't remember either the book or the author.
      1. Snail N9
        Snail N9 14 August 2020 08: 04 New
        +7
        Lord, there is no "conspiracy" here, everything has already been chewed and more than once. The powerful explosives of Japanese shells led to strong fires during explosions, which there was nothing to extinguish due to the penetration of fragments of these shells into the fire lines and hoses, as well as to the concussion of mechanisms and equipment that disabled them (for example, sighting devices and rangefinders became unusable almost immediately , which most disastrously affected the shooting of Russian artillery). When powerful Japanese "suitcases" exploded, the armor plates loosened, retreated and fell off their mountings, causing overloaded Russian ships to water flows, leading to flooding of compartments, heels and death. the whole ship. Shrapnel from shells penetrated any cracks, incapacitating officers and professional service personnel of the first line, which had to be replaced by non-professional cooks, bilge, etc. The officers were not replaced by someone just a lower rank or not at all by someone, for example, officers who controlled rangefinders and sights, after they were knocked out by shrapnel and concussions, the surviving sailors and conductors aimed their guns "by sight", that is, they fired "in white light, like a pretty penny "..
        1. Trapperxnumx
          Trapperxnumx 14 August 2020 12: 04 New
          +3
          Quote: Snail N9
          The powerful explosives of Japanese shells led to strong fires during explosions, which there was nothing to extinguish due to the penetration of fragments of these shells into fire lines and hoses, as well as to the concussion of mechanisms and equipment, which disabled them

          Then why on the Russian ships of the 1st squadron was not even a small fraction of everything described by you observed?
          1. Alexandra
            Alexandra 15 August 2020 00: 38 New
            +3
            Because one explosion of a projectile gave one seat of fire (The thermal effect lasts a fraction of a second. High explosives create a higher temperature when exploded. The thermal effect is local in nature and does not exceed 10-30 diameters of the volume of the explosive charge in range... On objects, objects and materials located in the immediate vicinity of the explosion site, in the absence of subsequent open combustion, traces of trenching and melting are observed.), And at Tsushima due to the many times more frequent (than in the Yellow Sea) shells of medium caliber fires there was much more. More and more centers did not have time to extinguish. The fire that was not extinguished quickly turned into a serious fire. Moreover, the situation with combustible materials on the Russian battleships under Tsushima was "much better" than in the Yellow Sea.
      2. Vlad Vlad (Shimas)
        Vlad Vlad (Shimas) 16 August 2020 22: 32 New
        0
        at the pick. cruisers.
    3. Private-K
      Private-K 14 August 2020 20: 55 New
      -2
      Andrei, IMHO, no versions other than undercover sabotage, the explosion of Russian shells cannot be explained.
      1. rytik32
        15 August 2020 22: 21 New
        +2
        I beg your patience! The third part of the cycle will consider each not a gap rated by the Japanese at 203 mm or more.
        I am more than sure that your opinion will change.
  2. The leader of the Redskins
    The leader of the Redskins 13 August 2020 12: 13 New
    +8
    But what about the version mentioned by the participant in the battle Novikov-Priboy in the high humidity of pyroxylin, which was in the shells? Was it specially raised several times, because they were afraid of spontaneous combustion when crossing the equator and southern latitudes?
    1. Senior seaman
      Senior seaman 13 August 2020 12: 42 New
      11
      Quote: Leader of the Redskins
      What about

      No way. This is Novikov's invention.
      1. Andrey Shmelev
        Andrey Shmelev 15 August 2020 13: 23 New
        0
        No way. This is Novikov's invention.


        this, I understand, too?

        1. Senior seaman
          Senior seaman 15 August 2020 14: 31 New
          +2
          Apparently, yes. Firstly, do you see Alexey Nikolaevich's signature anywhere? Secondly, there on the first page I quote:
          during the seven-month campaign, there was no live fire

          Which is obviously not true. I doubt that an academician known for his adherence to principles would have stooped to this.
          Surely not from the "literary trial of Rozhdestvensky" this insert?
          1. Andrey Shmelev
            Andrey Shmelev 15 August 2020 14: 53 New
            +1
            about the signature - very controversial, typewritten copies were not always signed

            "- our ships were not fired upon in battle ... during the seven-month campaign, there were no COMBAT firing, because only five TRAINING shells were fired on a large gun"

            it is written very crookedly, there are still crooked places,
            I would assume it is a rough typewritten copy of a poorly parsed handwritten text,
            not necessarily properly structured
            I see no reason to assert about falsification, especially since Novikov and Larionov knew very well about the practice shooting and their results
            1. Senior seaman
              Senior seaman 15 August 2020 15: 04 New
              +2
              Quote: Andrey Shmelev
              I see no reason to assert about falsity, especially since Novikov and Larionov knew very well about the practice shooting and their results

              Don't you think that the first and second parts of this sentence directly contradict each other?
              it is written very crookedly, there are still crooked places,

              And now we recall Krylov's style in his works.
              Quote: Andrey Shmelev
              I would assume it is a rough typewritten copy of a poorly parsed handwritten text,

              To which the respected academician had nothing to do?

              P.S. Have you read two articles on AI (BB over a glass of tea or something like that)?
              1. Andrey Shmelev
                Andrey Shmelev 15 August 2020 15: 32 New
                0
                the first and second parts of this sentence directly contradict each other


                no, of course, since the likelihood of SUCH lies is extremely low, Novikov or Larionov would not lie like that, especially since Novikov himself wrote about shooting practice, we conclude: most likely, the primary text is crookedly parsed

                To which the respected academician had nothing to do?


                not a fact, if fake, then it is easier to refer to the deceased and a little less well-known
                reference to the living and famous, on the contrary, evidence that he had

                two articles on AI


                which ones? :)
                1. Senior seaman
                  Senior seaman 15 August 2020 15: 41 New
                  +4
                  http://alternathistory.com/vv-za-ryumkoj-chaya/
                  http://alternathistory.com/vv-za-ryumkoj-chaya-o-sravnenii-vzryvchatyh-veshhestv/
                  There, in the discussions, among other things, the author of the article writes that Alexei Nikolaevich, sometimes, did not carry such game. I say right away, I personally do not agree with this, but, as it were, there is such an opinion.
                  As for the fame and authority of Krylov ... You see, Krylov is one of the former, a tsarist general. And Novikov is a revolutionary, a member of the VKPB with pre-revolutionary experience. And the time is the middle of the 30s ...
                  1. Andrey Shmelev
                    Andrey Shmelev 15 August 2020 18: 58 New
                    +1
                    thank you very much, very interesting articles, but this is to continue the discussion

                    for now, I'm ready to say the following:

                    1. There was no reason to lie to Novikov, he could just go to the department at the Military Medical Academy or something like that, where he would be told about the softness of pure aluminum (the generally accepted version), it is much more likely that infa about wet pyroxylin came from Krylov to Novikov, only because there is a link to the academician, since it is possible to put a bolt on the published version of the professor of the Department of the Naval Academy, the developer of the course for pipes and fuses only by referring to the authority of the academician

                    2.The story about pyroxylin does not change anything in the concept of "Tsushima", including the political bias, therefore it was not necessary to specially invent it
                    1. Senior seaman
                      Senior seaman 16 August 2020 09: 01 New
                      +3
                      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                      to the published version

                      Sorry, but this scan does not pull for publication.
                      Krylov's bibliography is well known and I don't remember that he wrote about BB at all. However, I have not read all of them.
                      he could just go to the department at the VMA or something like that, where he would be told

                      for example, about the fact that the ZPR, with all its desire, would not have had time to deploy the battleships in front formation and rush to Togo during the execution of the loop. But Silych did not bother with such garbage, and even at meetings with the commanders of the RKKF continued to bend his line. He was not up to the little things.
                      Moreover, he is not the author of this "version", he simply replicated it.
                      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                      .the story about pyroxylin does not change anything in the concept of "Tsushima", including the political bias, therefore it was not necessary to specially invent it

                      And what in the concept of Tsushima changes the absence / presence of the fireman Baklanov?
                      1. Andrey Shmelev
                        Andrey Shmelev 16 August 2020 11: 08 New
                        +2
                        Sorry, but this scan does not pull for publication.


                        Dear colleague, you did not understand, in the 30s, at least three versions related to the tube were already published:
                        -broken glasses
                        - soft refined aluminum in the tip of the secondary striker
                        - too strong lugs of the load of the steel striker
                        all three versions can be briefly read in the work of Rdutlovsky, he drowns for the second, the third is somehow crookedly described there (professor of the Department of Military Medical Academy, author of the course on pipes and fuses) - this is 1940 release, but they were published earlier
                        therefore, putting a bolt on them needs serious authority, for example, academician Krylov

                        The moisture story can also have the following origins:
                        - overmoistening of the pyroxylin primer
                        - overmoistening of the powder firecracker of the secondary striker

                        I will wait for the respected author of the article :)


                        ZPR, with all the desire, would not have had time

                        this is a separate dispute) there will be a relevant article - ready to join
                  2. Saxahorse
                    Saxahorse 15 August 2020 20: 58 New
                    +3
                    Links to an alternative history site in serious discussion are a rare game in themselves. Do you really understand how stupid it looks? wassat
                    1. Andrey Shmelev
                      Andrey Shmelev 15 August 2020 21: 47 New
                      +1
                      I have a couple of questions regarding Rdutlovsky's conclusion on the double Brink tube, but I'll save them a little for discussion on further articles) so it's too early to write off the topic of pyroxylin
                    2. Senior seaman
                      Senior seaman 16 August 2020 09: 04 New
                      +2
                      If the multiplication table is published on the AI, will you begin to assert that 2x2 = 5?
                      Although, it will become of you.
                      In fact, there is a lot of reference material and serious articles on real history. And in its best years (alas, past) this site was head and shoulders above what the topvar has become now.
                      1. Andrey Shmelev
                        Andrey Shmelev 16 August 2020 11: 12 New
                        +1
                        Taking this opportunity, I really want to be curious, I can't figure out the Iziuin fuse, have you ever found a detailed description of it in old posts? - otherwise I did not really follow in the period 2005-2017
                      2. Senior seaman
                        Senior seaman 16 August 2020 11: 18 New
                        0
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        Have you ever found a detailed description of it in old posts?

                        Unfortunately no.
                    3. Comrade
                      Comrade 16 August 2020 20: 25 New
                      +6
                      Quote: Senior Sailor
                      in its best years (alas, past) this site was head and shoulders above what the topvar has become now.

                      Authors need to be respected, especially if you don't pay them for work that takes dozens of hours. I have posted an article here, it is not on the site yet, but I can read the text.
                      The text has been edited, hurts the eyes and is unpleasant to read. This angered me, and I firmly decided that more of my articles will not be here, this is the last one. I’ll start LJ and there will be no one to cripple my work for no reason.
                      By the way, the beard on AI, by the way, went so far that he even changed the headlines of my articles, not only without first asking my consent, but without even notifying me of his intention.
                    4. 27091965
                      27091965 16 August 2020 22: 16 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Comrade
                      I posted an article here, it is not on the site yet, but I can read the text.


                      I will read it with pleasure if you send it by mail.
                    5. Comrade
                      Comrade 16 August 2020 23: 13 New
                      +2
                      Quote: 27091965i
                      I will read it with pleasure if you send it by mail.

                      It should appear in the coming days, I sent it for moderation yesterday.
                  3. Andrey Shmelev
                    Andrey Shmelev 17 August 2020 07: 09 New
                    +2
                    good morning, of course, I strongly disagree with you on a number of fundamental points, but I think you are at least very erudite and extremely interesting, I would be grateful for a link to LJ
                  4. Comrade
                    Comrade 17 August 2020 17: 42 New
                    +3
                    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                    but I think you are at least very erudite and extremely interesting, I would be grateful for a link to LJ

                    Thanks for the compliment.
                    The password for your old LJ has been lost, we will create a new one. So far, there is nothing there, but after finishing the discussion of the above article, I will sit down for an article on the damage to the "Fuji" received in the Tsushima battle, where the emphasis will be on the aft tower. When it is ready, I ask all those interested to discuss it. I will post a link in a suitable topic.
                    It won't work out soon, the work is not easy, but it's worth it.
                  5. Andrey Shmelev
                    Andrey Shmelev 17 August 2020 18: 44 New
                    0
                    Thanks for the compliment.


                    this is not an "addition", it is a statement of fact

                    looking forward to the link)
  • Andrey152
    Andrey152 16 August 2020 21: 53 New
    0
    Andrey, could you please upload the first page of the document? And what is this document, from where?
    1. Senior seaman
      Senior seaman 18 August 2020 10: 06 New
      0
      http://expositions.nlr.ru/ex_manus/tsusima/poragenie.php
  • at84432384
    at84432384 17 August 2020 00: 01 New
    0
    This is not fiction. During the "debriefing" after the war, the Admiralty noted an error in the calculations of the moisture content of pyroxylin. The moisture content of pyroxylin in the Tsushima battle turned out to be overestimated. Well, there was no experience in world history to travel around the world and join the battle right away. Neither before nor after.
    1. Senior seaman
      Senior seaman 18 August 2020 10: 03 New
      0
      1) The fiction is that Krylov wrote it. There is no such thing in his works.
      2) There is no reason to believe that the moisture content of the VTE shells somehow differed from others.
      3) What is the world around the world to God? And what do you mean it was not? How do you think PTE ships got to Port Arthur?
      And by the way
      Quote: at84432384
      During the "debriefing" after the war, the Admiralty noted an error in the calculations of the moisture content of pyroxylin.

      Can you somehow confirm this?
      1. at84432384
        at84432384 26 August 2020 13: 46 New
        0
        I read it 40-45 years ago and I don't remember the source. But there is no doubt that the moisture content of pyroxylin will change when the squadron moves from the Baltka to Tsushima.
        1. Senior seaman
          Senior seaman 27 August 2020 09: 55 New
          0
          Quote: at84432384
          I read it 40-45 years ago and I don't remember the source.

          Tsushima Novikov-Priboy.
          Quote: at84432384
          But there is no doubt that the moisture content of pyroxylin will change when the squadron moves from the Baltka to Tsushima.

          Uh ... which one? The one in the mine cellars for equipping mines? Or what's in the artillery shells inside sealed brass containers?
          1. at84432384
            at84432384 29 August 2020 13: 23 New
            0
            Are there sealed brass containers? In general, making something hermetically sealed is a serious problem, and even with temperature drops of several tens of degrees ... Or were they sealed? I am afraid except for the gallant soldier Schweik to play with pyroxylin and no one will think of fire.
            1. Senior seaman
              Senior seaman 30 August 2020 13: 57 New
              0
              And you read the whole tape :)))
              There is a description of the process just a few comments down.
  • rytik32
    13 August 2020 12: 44 New
    16
    Pyroxylin should be moist, there is nothing to worry about. But why our shells did not explode in Tsushima, I will consider in the third article of the cycle with the analysis of each recorded case of non-rupture for calibers 3-305 mm.
    1. Senior seaman
      Senior seaman 13 August 2020 13: 08 New
      +7
      I am waiting with great interest.
      1. Pereira
        Pereira 14 August 2020 00: 37 New
        +1
        The main sea alternatives came together. I feel a storm is coming.
        Greetings Ivan, I owe you a favor. Defeated the last 4 books.
    2. Private-K
      Private-K 14 August 2020 20: 57 New
      +1
      Quote: rytik32
      why our shells didn't explode in Tsushima

      Will the possible sabotage actions of the famous admiral's tribe be considered?
  • Harry cuper
    Harry cuper 13 August 2020 13: 34 New
    +7
    Pyroxylin in Russian shells was hermetically packed in special brass containers (so as not to interact with the steel wall of the shell). I wonder how the artilleryman Novikov checked its humidity? wink
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 13 August 2020 13: 46 New
      12
      Novikov was a battalion soldier and had nothing to do with artillery.
      1. Harry cuper
        Harry cuper 13 August 2020 13: 52 New
        +5
        Oops ... it's true laughing batailleur let me down, in the truest sense of the word
      2. lelik613
        lelik613 15 August 2020 10: 52 New
        +2
        That is capter, in the place of money ... Questions arise about the studies of the venerable revolutionary.
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 13 August 2020 18: 39 New
      +7
      Quote: Harry Cuper
      Pyroxylin in Russian shells was hermetically packed in special brass containers (so as not to interact with the steel wall of the shell).

      At Tsushima, they even brought up the technology for making explosive charges:
      According to the 1894 “Instructions for equipping and storing pyroxylin projectiles”, a pyroxylin explosive charge was placed in a projectile in a charging case made in the shape of the projectile's internal cavity. The charging case consisted of a nickel-plated brass solid-drawn body and a stamped cover. The explosive charge consisted of blocks of wet pyroxylin, pressed together and turned into the shape of the internal void of the charging case. The checkers were placed in a vessel with distilled water and remained in it until full saturation, absorbing 20-25% moisture. After saturation, the checkers were removed from the vessel, charges were made from them, checked by templates, weighed and placed on the table with their head up. When excess water drained off, a cover was put on, and a lid was put on it, the joint was covered with a rubberized tape. The loaded case was weighed and placed in a sealed sealed box with the top down, and in this form was sent to ports for loading shells. This design of the charge made it possible to maintain the specified moisture content in pyroxylin, preventing it from drying out.
      © Andrey152
    3. Ryaruav
      Ryaruav 13 August 2020 18: 41 New
      +1
      Novikov was not an artilleryman, but a battalion
    4. Alexandra
      Alexandra 15 August 2020 00: 58 New
      +2


      Has the rubberized tape been completely sealed over many months at varying levels of temperature, humidity and atmospheric pressure?
      1. Andrey Shmelev
        Andrey Shmelev 15 August 2020 19: 02 New
        +1
        I may not be a great specialist in explosives, but I am plagued by vague doubts that 20% pyroskisilin GIVES moisture, and does not accept
        1. Saxahorse
          Saxahorse 15 August 2020 21: 02 New
          +1
          The control of humidity and temperature in the cellars was entrusted to the senior artillery officer. And yes, all this big hemorrhage with temperature / humidity was the reason for the abandonment of pyrokislin and the transition to trinitrotoluene. :)
  • certero
    certero 13 August 2020 12: 14 New
    +5
    I will add. There was also a version that pyroxylin in the second squadron was more humid because of this, the shells did not explode. Thus, the shells of the 1st squadron were better than the second.
  • fyvaprold
    fyvaprold 13 August 2020 12: 28 New
    13
    In fact, if my memory serves me, the "shell version" only referred to shells for the 2nd Pacific Squadron. It seems that the situation there was with increased to 30% humidity of pyroxylin, instead of the "normal" 9-12%. This theory is partly confirmed by the shelling of the battleship "Slava" at the fortress "Sveaborg", "Slava" did not manage to get into the 2nd TE, but was equipped with shells made for it. The authorship of this version is attributed to academician A.N. Krylov. hi
    The article is excellent, I look forward to continuing. hi
    1. Senior seaman
      Senior seaman 13 August 2020 12: 44 New
      11
      Quote: fyvaprold
      This theory is partly confirmed by the shelling of the battleship "Glory" of the fortress "Sveaborg"

      All would be fine, but "Glory" did not shoot at Sveaborg. See Melnikov's monograph.
      Quote: fyvaprold
      The authorship of this version is attributed to academician A.N. Krylov.

      Keyword - "ascribe"
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 13 August 2020 14: 10 New
        +5
        Hi Ivan. hi
        It's all under the impression of the movie "Sveaborg". The film was shot very well, but there is enough lies, and not only with the shelling of the fortress with battleships. What to do, unfortunately, the vast majority of the so-called. "Historical-revolutionary" films of that time were very far from showing real people and events.
      2. fyvaprold
        fyvaprold 13 August 2020 16: 55 New
        +1
        Quote: Senior Sailor
        Quote: fyvaprold
        This theory is partly confirmed by the shelling of the battleship "Glory" of the fortress "Sveaborg"

        All would be fine, but "Glory" did not shoot at Sveaborg. See Melnikov's monograph.
        Quote: fyvaprold
        The authorship of this version is attributed to academician A.N. Krylov.

        Keyword - "ascribe"

        I will not argue, I presented the version, as I remembered it, without any claims to authenticity, about the shelling of "Glory" Sveaborg, I also read somewhere (where, unfortunately, I do not remember), I did not watch the film. hi
        1. Senior seaman
          Senior seaman 13 August 2020 17: 34 New
          +3
          Let's just say that these are common misconceptions in which I once (in principle, not so long ago) also believed. This is treated by an in-depth study of the issue.
    2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 August 2020 12: 47 New
      +9
      Quote: fyvaprold
      It seems that the situation there was with increased to 30% humidity of pyroxylin,

      In fact, this is the natural moisture content of pyroxylin, with such a moisture content (25-30%) it was used everywhere. And about Glory, the respected senior sailor answered you :)
      1. Alexandra
        Alexandra 15 August 2020 01: 26 New
        +2
        "The life of a chemist. Memoirs. Volume 1 1867-1917" V.N. Ipatiev, New York, 1945, pp. 98

        https://vtoraya-literatura.com/pdf/ipatiev_zhizn_odnogo_khimika_vospominaniya_tom1_1945_text.pdf

        "In the Maritime Department, a detonator - dry pyroxylin was used to detonate blast pyroxylin (containing 22-24% moisture), which was filled with special zinc cases inserted into large-caliber sea shells."

        However, by the time of the RYAV, the case was brass.
        1. Saxahorse
          Saxahorse 15 August 2020 21: 05 New
          +1
          Quote: AlexanderA
          "In the Maritime Department, the detonator - dry pyroxylin was used to detonate the blast pyroxylin

          It is worth noting that it would be much more logical to use black powder for intermediate detonation, and not dry pyrokislin, as it was done in real life. And smoke will appear at the rupture, and black powder flares up much sharper than smokeless powder, which is very useful for detonating the main charge.
          1. Alexandra
            Alexandra 16 August 2020 21: 02 New
            +1
            In order to detonate wet pyroxylin, the explosive of the intermediate detonator must itself detonate. Black powder does not detonate - it burns. Dry pyroxylin with a density of 1,3 g / cm3 has a detonation velocity of about 6500 m / s.

            "At a moisture content of 5-7%, pyroxylin readily explodes from a standard detonator cap # 8; at 10-30%, an intermediate detonator is required for the explosion - a pyroxylin block with a moisture content of 5-7%."
            1. Saxahorse
              Saxahorse 16 August 2020 22: 49 New
              +1
              Quote: AlexanderA
              Black powder does not detonate - it burns.

              Black powder detonates perfectly. That is why they began to seed it. Just the reduced, in comparison with black powder, the tendency to detonation in smokeless powders, made it possible to lengthen the barrels of guns and increase the muzzle velocity of bullets and projectiles two to three times.
      2. Andrey Shmelev
        Andrey Shmelev 15 August 2020 19: 04 New
        +1
        In fact, this is the natural moisture content of pyroxylin, with such a moisture content (25-30%) it was used everywhere.


        Rdutlovsky:
        Both types of projectiles were loaded with wet pyroxylin, whose curvatures were placed in neatly crafted brass nickel-plated cases. Explosive charges ... had about 18% moisture.
    3. 27091965
      27091965 13 August 2020 18: 28 New
      +1
      Quote: fyvaprold
      This theory is partly confirmed by the shelling of the battleship "Slava" at the fortress "Sveaborg", "Slava" did not manage to get into the 2nd TE, but was equipped with shells made for it. The authorship of this version is attributed to academician A.N. Krylov.


      The battleship Slava did not fire at the Sveaborg. A small fragment from the report of I.O. the commandant of the Sveaborg fortress, Major General Lyming, on August 2, 1906;

      "........ despite heavy artillery fire, damage to the fortresses was insignificant for 2 1/2 days .......
      ....... such a small reality of fire can be explained by the fact that the shooting was mainly conducted from 9-pounder field guns, while the falling shells of large calibers, including up to 11 inch mortars, and falling into buildings fortunately did not explode, as a result of which did not do much harm.
      .. "
  • mark1
    mark1 13 August 2020 12: 29 New
    +3
    I wonder if by some miracle the Japanese and Russian squadrons would have exchanged shells (in terms of quality), the end result of the battle in the Tsushima Strait would have been different (or would there have been another objective reason)?
    1. rytik32
      13 August 2020 12: 50 New
      +4
      My opinion: the result would be about the same, but the Japanese would have achieved it in a different way and even faster than on May 14-15. The Japanese, taking advantage of their speed advantage, approached our outer ships and concentrated fire on them from close range. Naturally, they themselves would have suffered greater losses than in fact.
      1. Snail N9
        Snail N9 14 August 2020 08: 10 New
        +3
        I have already quoted Veselago's caustic phrase about the reasons for the defeat in Tsushima: "The fleet preparing for the" highest reviews "lost to the fleet preparing for war" ...
  • Pushkowed
    Pushkowed 13 August 2020 13: 02 New
    +6
    The TNT equivalent of trinitrophenol (aka melinite, shimose, liddite) is approximately 1,0. For pyroxylin, about 0,9. Not that much of a difference. Any ammonium nitrate surrogates (ammonal, ammonite, etc.) are even weaker - 0,7 ... 0,8. They were loaded with high-explosive shells in the Second World War (due to the shortage of TNT), while no one complained about their insufficient damaging effect when bursting.

    But if you use very old shells (filled with gunpowder), then for him this TNT equivalent cannot even be calculated correctly. If only because TNT is a blasting explosive, and gunpowder is a propellant. He has no blasting. He is only able to split the projectile into several large and low-speed (and therefore low-energy) fragments. In addition, their small number does not create a continuous field of destruction. Against undisguised manpower, this will still work, but against a steel warship (even if we are talking about internal bulkheads made of ordinary, non-armored steel), it is already ineffective. It seems that such shells were used by 2TOE. Moreover, for a 12-inch main battery. They were not only on "Nikolay", which is why it turned out to be the most effective of the Russian battleships. It is he who is credited with serious damage to "Fuji" and "Asama".
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 August 2020 13: 13 New
      +4
      Quote: Pushkowed
      The TNT equivalent of trinitrophenol (aka melinite, shimose, liddite) is approximately 1,0. For pyroxylin, about 0,9. Not that much of a difference.

      Uh-huh. Considering pure pyroxylin, dilute it with water to 25%, and the equivalent will be different. And if you also remember that pyroxylin had to be packed in special metal containers, excluding its contact with the walls of the projectile? Melinite made do with wax paper ...
      So it's not all easy with the TNT equivalent
      1. Pushkowed
        Pushkowed 13 August 2020 14: 36 New
        +5
        Considering pure pyroxylin, dilute it with water to 25%, and the equivalent will be different.
        0,9 is for already wet pyroxylin. Pure, undiluted - 1,1. But it was not used in its pure form, because it was dangerous.

        pyroxylin had to be packed in special metal containers, excluding its contact with the walls of the projectile
        But this is already the problem of the content of explosives in the mass of the projectile. More precisely, the problem of the design of the projectile. More precisely, the fact that old projectiles designed for gunpowder were reloaded with pyroxylin.
        But even that was better than gunpowder.

        Melinite made do with wax paper
        Only it was not very reliable, tightness was not always ensured. Trinitrophenol (aka picric acid), being still an acid, actively reacts with metals and forms salts - picrates. Iron picrate is sensitive as an initiating explosive in detonators. Melinitis itself is also very sensitive. The result of this practice is the regular bursting of shells in the barrels of Japanese ships. I don't remember anything like that on Russian ships in the whole RYAV.
        But as a result of the war, both sides drew conclusions and by the beginning of WWI switched to TNT.
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 August 2020 15: 05 New
          0
          Quote: Pushkowed
          0,9 is for already wet pyroxylin. Pure, undiluted - 1,1

          Sorry, but 25% of water can't cause a decrease from 1,1 to 0,9 :)))
          Quote: Pushkowed
          But this is already the problem of the content of explosives in the mass of the projectile.

          No :))) All other things being equal, the volume of the chamber for the explosives will be equal, but what we stuff there will depend, among other things, on the need for a brass cover.
          Quote: Pushkowed
          Only it was not very reliable, tightness was not always ensured.

          I totally agree, but it didn't bother the Japanese too much. Although the same Mikasa could well have exploded earlier even without our influence
          1. Pushkowed
            Pushkowed 13 August 2020 16: 07 New
            +4
            the volume of the chamber for explosives will be equal, but what we stuff there will depend, among other things, on the need for a brass cover
            And here I cannot agree with you.
            Even if the brass cover weighs more than the explosive charge (but in fact it weighed less), then this cover will take up a very small fraction of the chamber volume. Consequently - whether with a cover or without a cover, the volume of explosives will change slightly. And from this it follows that the mass of the explosive is the same. The density of brass is close to that of steel and cast iron, but it differs by an order of magnitude from the density of pyroxylin, melinite, TNT or gunpowder. So if you make the cover part of the projectile design (by slightly reducing the proportion of steel / cast iron), you can get a pyroxylin projectile with the same volume of explosives as a "coverless" gunpowder or TNT.

            In "Myths of Tsushima" you quoted this document:

            It can be seen from it that the 10-inch "pyroxylin" shells had a greater explosive weight (even without taking into account the cover) and bоa larger proportion of explosives in the mass of the charge than the "powder" 12-inch ones, although the latter should have a larger chamber volume. This is due to the fact that pyroxylin has a slightly higher density than gunpowder.

            So the cover is not essential. It has little effect on the explosive mass. Even the difference in the density of the explosive affects the mass of the explosive charge more strongly (moreover, in the case of gunpowder / pyroxylin, it affects the other direction, completely compensating for the mass of the case). Everything rests on the design of the projectile itself, the volume of its chamber.
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 August 2020 16: 15 New
              +1
              Quote: Pushkowed
              It can be seen from it that the 10-inch "pyroxylin" projectiles had a greater explosive weight (even without the cover) and a greater proportion of explosives in the charge mass than the "powder" 12-inch

              Why are you comparing 10 "and 12" shells, if there is data specifically for 10 "? 3,6% - total mass with a cover, 2,9% - explosive proper. The cover ate 19,4% of the total "payload" mass
              1. Pushkowed
                Pushkowed 13 August 2020 17: 46 New
                +4
                The cover ate 19,4% of the total "payload" mass
                ... which is 3,42 lb = 1,4 kg.
                The mass of the projectile is 225,2 kg, of which 6,7 kg is for pyroxylin, 1,4 kg for a brass cover and 217,1 kg for everything else. If the projectile was originally designed for pyroxylin, and the task would be to prevent this "eating away", then it would be possible to make "everything else" 1,4 kg (0,64%) lighter, leave the 1,4-kg cover, but have an 8,1 kg (6,7 + 1,4) charge of pyroxylin. Everything seems to be covered in chocolate: the mass of the projectile is the same, the structure is almost not weakened (the mass of steel has decreased by 0,64%, being replaced by brass), while the loss of the "payload" did not occur.

                But that was not the main problem with the Russian shells.
                And the fact that we are talking about 2,9-3,6% of the mass of the projectile, and not about 10%.
                We are talking about 6,7-8,1 kg of blasting explosives, and not about 20-25 kg.

                Russian land mines of that war had an explosive content on order less than was needed for effective combat work with such land mines. Unlike the Japanese land mines, which had everything in order with the filling.

                About 20% of the loss of the "payload" on the brass cover is an insignificant trifle in a situation where, even without it, about 200% of the required mass of explosives in the projectile is missing. And what kind of explosive it will be (TNT, melinite, and even pyroxylin - just not gunpowder) is not so important anymore.
          2. Andrey Shmelev
            Andrey Shmelev 15 August 2020 21: 57 New
            +2
            Sorry, but 25% of water can't cause a decrease from 1,1 to 0,9 :)))


            why exactly?
        2. Saxahorse
          Saxahorse 13 August 2020 23: 05 New
          +2
          Quote: Pushkowed
          0,9 is for already wet pyroxylin. Pure, undiluted - 1,1. But it was not used in its pure form, because it was dangerous.

          Excuse me, but where did you get all this? May I ask about the source?

          As far as I remember from the discussion on these issues, the reality is the opposite. Pyrokislin and Shimoza had about 1.15 TNT equivalent. Those. were definitely more powerful than TNT. And finally, dry pyrokislin does not explode at all, it burns like gunpowder. And of course, without detonation, it can in no way be more powerful than wet pyrokislin. And the difference is big, at times.
      2. Andrey Shmelev
        Andrey Shmelev 15 August 2020 19: 16 New
        +2
        Melinite made do with wax paper ...


        do you see some
        a) physical limitations
        b) chemical restrictions
        for equipping a 305-mm projectile with melenite?
        ;)))
    2. Senior seaman
      Senior seaman 13 August 2020 13: 16 New
      +7
      Quote: Pushkowed
      It is he who is credited with serious damage to "Fuji" and "Asama".

      And at least with Fuji, this is completely unfounded.
      If anything, the end Asama got hit at 14-27, and the fourth, Fuji, at 14-42. Do you seriously believe that one single tower of "Nikolai" could keep the entire Japanese line under fire at the same time?
    3. Victor Leningradets
      Victor Leningradets 14 August 2020 10: 41 New
      +3
      You are not right.
      Black powder in the form of porous grains is indeed a propelling explosive, but precisely in the form of grains. Compressed into a solid mass, reminiscent of fine emery, it detonates perfectly, crushing the steel substrate into small fragments. When metal filings are added during the pressing process, the detonation speed increases. However, when pressed, black powder is extremely prone to spontaneous detonation, and as a projectile equipment it is sensitive to impact.
      And most importantly, this explosive is much inferior in power to liddite, shellite and others.
  • Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 13 August 2020 13: 05 New
    +5
    The topic itself and the upcoming discussion cannot but welcome!
    + + + + +
    As for the theses ... well, firstly, not only shells, but also fuses could be modernized. In particular, in the direction of increasing sensitivity. For example, in the battle at Port Arthur there was a case when a 12 "shell hit the auxiliary cruiser Angara and did not explode.
    Secondly, Lutonin, to whom the author refers, is a very interesting person. To read it, "Poltava" pulled the brunt of the siege on itself. That is, it is possible and necessary to take into account his work, but we must remember that he did not have the opportunity to familiarize himself with the action of Russian shells and was firmly convinced that they had achieved great success in ZhM, and fired better than VTE.
    1. Nehist
      Nehist 13 August 2020 13: 53 New
      +1
      Hmm ... I also am of the opinion that 1TOE shot better than the second one, it can be seen simply by the consumption of ammunition, which everyone somehow forgets about, the second shot more intensively
      1. Senior seaman
        Senior seaman 13 August 2020 13: 56 New
        0
        I didn't quite understand your criterion.
        1. Nehist
          Nehist 13 August 2020 13: 57 New
          +1
          Ammo consumption per number of feeds
          1. Senior seaman
            Senior seaman 13 August 2020 13: 59 New
            +1
            This is just understandable :))) It is not very clear how you calculated the VTE ammunition consumption.
    2. rytik32
      14 August 2020 00: 39 New
      +3
      Quote: Senior Sailor
      In particular, in the direction of increasing sensitivity. For example, in the battle at Port Arthur there was a case when a 12 "shell hit the Angara auxiliary cruiser and did not explode.

      I looked for cases of non-explosions of Japanese shells. It turned out to be quite a lot, especially during shelling of the coast. In addition, armor-piercing shells flew to the shore after ricocheting against the water (high-explosive shells exploded when they hit the water). As regards ships, there are also: 254 mm for Diana, 305 mm and 254 mm for Poltava, 152 mm for Sevastopol, 203 mm for Sisoy Veliky.
    3. rytik32
      14 August 2020 12: 23 New
      +4
      Quote: Senior Sailor
      firstly, not only shells, but also fuses could be modernized. In particular, towards increasing the sensitivity

      I also read about this in the reports of the British. But here is a diagram of a Japanese fuse

      1 is the firing pin. In the normal position, the weight 2 prevents it from hitting the capsule 3. But after the shot, the weight from rotation makes 3,5 turns along the thread around the striker, moves back and at the moment of hitting the target does not prevent the striker from hitting the capsule. Next, the powder charge 4 detonates and from it the rest of the explosives in the projectile.

      And I don’t understand what can be adjusted there for sensitivity?
      1. Senior seaman
        Senior seaman 14 August 2020 13: 09 New
        0
        Colleague, to be honest: - fig knows him :)
        But ... maybe you played around with the thread pitch and the number of turns? Or parts materials?
        Or maybe this design is not the only one? (Although Lutonin described something like that)
        P.S. Are there any drawings of our pipes (Brink and Baranovsky), by any chance? repeat
        1. rytik32
          14 August 2020 15: 07 New
          +4
          There!
          Brink

          Baranowski
          1. Andrey152
            Andrey152 15 August 2020 08: 20 New
            +1
            In the diagram and photo, the head tube of Baranovsky, for large shells, a bottom sample was used. 1894 However, in terms of the principle of operation, it was similar.
        2. rytik32
          14 August 2020 22: 23 New
          +3
          Quote: Senior Sailor
          Colleague, to be honest: - fig knows him :)

          Everything, figured out, they played with the mass of the striker.
          1. Andrey Shmelev
            Andrey Shmelev 15 August 2020 21: 59 New
            0
            Everything, figured out, they played with the mass of the striker.


            I'm sorry, I don't understand
            1. rytik32
              15 August 2020 22: 30 New
              +3
              An increase in striker mass is an increase in the sensitivity of the projectile.
              1. Andrey Shmelev
                Andrey Shmelev 15 August 2020 22: 48 New
                0
                in the above diagram of the Japanese fuse, it is not shown due to what exactly the firing pin is kept in the rear position (it is unlikely that it dangled), it is obvious that it is somehow fixed to the body, right?
                1. rytik32
                  16 August 2020 00: 08 New
                  +2
                  As I understand it, the firing pin is spread between the weight and the back wall
                  1. Andrey Shmelev
                    Andrey Shmelev 16 August 2020 10: 53 New
                    0
                    then, the firing pin consists of a sting and a base that serves as a load and a spacer between the side walls, judging by the diagram, but this is wildly a little
                    maybe there were some ears that were not reflected in the diagram?

                    and I'm even more worried about how to make a BB projectile from this, since the delay is not realizable
                    1. rytik32
                      16 August 2020 11: 11 New
                      +4
                      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                      and I'm even more worried about how to make a BB projectile from this, since the delay is not realizable

                      No way! In addition, the Japanese still had to change the explosives, because the shimoza could detonate when it hit the target and without the participation of the fuse.
                      In order not to write a separate article on shimose, which will be stupid copy-paste, I will post the materials here:




                    2. rytik32
                      16 August 2020 11: 15 New
                      +3
                      I will continue




                      In addition, more information:
                      As shown by studies of the contents of high-explosive field artillery shells taken from the Japanese at Putilovskaya Sopka, as well as shells that fell into Russian military ships and did not explode, and caught Japanese mines, the so-called shimose in its chemical composition is no more, no less than fused picric acid and, therefore, in this respect, and therefore in its strength, is identical with melinite and liddite... The impurities of foreign substances found in it during the analysis, most likely and especially in view of their negligible amount, have a random character and are easily explained by the use of less pure varieties of phenol for the preparation of picric acid. Although similar in composition to melinite, shimosa differs from it in the physical structure of its mass, especially shimosa from field high-explosive garnets. Namely, the mass of the latter is finely crystalline and very dense (up to 1,68), which is achieved, as shown by the corresponding experiments, with the help of a special casting technique, which is practically very convenient and simple. The mass of shimosa from other shells is coarse-crystalline, but unlike melinite, the location of the crystals in it is incorrect. Case equipment. Cast shimosa blanks are then wrapped in tin foil and waxed paper, and in some types of shells, moreover, they are dressed with a cover made of soft paper fabric, similar in appearance to flannel. The explosion of the charge is carried out using a capsule with explosive mercury through a detonator made of powdered picric acid, in field grenades, simply poured into a long cardboard tube, and in shells of naval artillery, a shock tube is pressed into a brass cup.
                      1. Saxahorse
                        Saxahorse 16 August 2020 23: 22 New
                        +3
                        The Japanese article is not perfect to say the least. Dedicated mainly to the history of the introduction of shimosa and even then incomplete. Neither the composition and methods of equipment are practically affected in it. It is interesting that different shimosa were used in field artillery and in the sea.
                      2. rytik32
                        18 August 2020 21: 40 New
                        +1
                        I beg your pardon, I skipped the penultimate page
    4. Alexandra
      Alexandra 15 August 2020 02: 02 New
      0
      I suspect that after the battle in the Yellow Sea, the Japanese modernized the fuses for the detonator, excluding cases of incomplete detonation of the explosive charge of trinitrophenol that pursued the British liddite shells of that time.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_(projectile)

      Proper detonation of a lyddite shell would show black to gray smoke, or white from the steam of a water detonation. Yellow smoke indicated simple explosion rather than detonation, and failure to reliably detonate was a problem with lyddite, especially in its earlier usage. To improve the detonation "exploders" with a small quantity of picric powder or even of TNT (in smaller shells, 3 pdr, 12 pdr - 4.7 inch) was loaded between the fuze and the main lyddite filling or in a thin tube running through most of the shell's length.

      Translation:

      “Correct detonation of the liddite projectile produced black to gray smoke, or white vapor when detonated in water. Yellow smoke indicated a simple explosion, not detonation, and the inability to reliably detonate was a problem with liddite projectiles, especially early in use. to improve detonation, an intermediate detonator with a small amount of powdered picric acid or even TNT (in smaller projectiles, 3 lb, 12 lb - 4,7 in) was placed between the fuse and the main charge of liddite in a thin tube running through most of the main charge. "

      It is necessary to look at how many explosions of Japanese shells with yellow smoke (almost a pun) of incomplete detonation of the explosive charge were in the Yellow Sea.
  • Undecim
    Undecim 13 August 2020 13: 24 New
    +8
    Dear readers, I am opening a series of articles devoted to the analysis of the "shell version" as the reason for the defeat of the Russian fleet in the Battle of Tsushima.
    Dear readers are intrigued, but they are interested in what sources the author will build his cycle on, informational, so to speak, foundation.
    1. pmkemcity
      pmkemcity 13 August 2020 13: 42 New
      +2
      Quote: Undecim
      on the basis of what sources the author will build his cycle, information, so to speak, foundation.

      Until they dive to the bottom of Tsushima, they make a movie about "Our Titanics", all this will remain speculation. Although, the Japanese will rather do it ...
    2. rytik32
      13 August 2020 14: 20 New
      +8
      The very juice is the assessment of damage to Japanese ships according to Japanese sources, something that became available relatively "recently" by historical standards, starting with Campbell's article.
      And I have already learned how to download pictures from the jakar. Who cares, I can upload a file from the Kure shipyard. There are schemes for damage to many ships. Incl. the answer to the question in what position was the Fuji tower at the time of the famous hit.
      1. Senior seaman
        Senior seaman 13 August 2020 14: 30 New
        +3
        Quote: rytik32
        Incl. the answer to the question in what position was the Fuji tower at the time of the famous hit.

        Want! yes
        1. rytik32
          13 August 2020 14: 41 New
          +5
          You are welcome!
          https://yadi.sk/d/MBIPNcCepButtQ
          Fuji on page 82, but there is still a lot more interesting
          1. Harry cuper
            Harry cuper 13 August 2020 14: 54 New
            +1
            Here is a great human Merci beaucoup for you! hi
            1. Harry cuper
              Harry cuper 13 August 2020 15: 09 New
              0
              After downloading: why didn't I learn Japanese? There was a time ... laughing But thanks anyway!
      2. Comrade
        Comrade 13 August 2020 19: 13 New
        +2
        Quote: rytik32
        There are schemes for damage to many ships. Incl. the answer to the question in what position was the Fuji tower at the time of the famous hit.

        Sorry, colleague, but this scheme is not only conditional, it is also is wrong.
        Look carefully, at the top of the photo we see that over left gun armor plate not damaged.
        Look carefully, below in the diagram we see that over left gun armor plate damaged.

        If it's hard to see, write, I'll post an even larger image of the damaged area.
        The diagram from this document is just a diagram showing the place where the Russian shell hit and where it is shown full-time position of the gun mount. The arrow is just a pointer to the place where the projectile hit, but not the trajectory of its flight.

        I hope that in a few days we will be able to discuss the issue of the position of the artillery mount relative to the axis of symmetry of the ship in the topic that will be posted for moderation today or tomorrow. Would have done it last week, but circumstances interfered.
        1. rytik32
          13 August 2020 20: 56 New
          +1
          Quote: Comrade
          Look carefully, at the top of the photo we see that the armor plate above the left gun is not damaged.

          Here you need a photo from above. Perhaps damage is simply not visible.
          Quote: Comrade
          the standard position of the artillery mount is shown

          However, for some reason the position on the "Nissin" scheme is not regular, and on all two towers.
          1. Comrade
            Comrade 13 August 2020 21: 42 New
            +2
            Quote: rytik32
            Here you need a photo from above.

            Do not. The damage over the right gun is already visible.
            Quote: rytik32
            Perhaps damage is simply not visible.

            Time over the right apparently, there must be over the left it is seen.
            But you can't see.
            Take a look at the photo impartially, you see, the armor above the left gun not damaged, and above the right one is damaged.

            Now look at the diagram, I painted in red there the sections that, according to the schemedemolished by a shell.
            The area above the right gun is damaged, and the photo proves it. Above the left gun area allegedly also damaged, but the photo is disproves.
            1. rytik32
              13 August 2020 22: 04 New
              +2
              Now I see. There are discrepancies between the diagram and the photo. Most likely, the projectile flew a little to the left than the arrow on the diagram.
              But this does not negate the rotation of the towers on those schemes where there were hits (see "Nissin", Azuma "...)
              1. The comment was deleted.
              2. Comrade
                Comrade 14 August 2020 04: 36 New
                +2
                Quote: rytik32
                this does not cancel the rotation of the towers on those schemes where there were hits (see "Nissin", Azuma "...)

                Did my comments talk about them?
                We say that the trajectory of the projectile is incorrectly indicated in the document you posted and that damage to the front plate is depicted in a place where there was actually no damage.
                1. rytik32
                  14 August 2020 09: 28 New
                  +2
                  Well, it's still a scheme! I believe that the inaccuracies are within acceptable limits.
  • certero
    certero 13 August 2020 13: 28 New
    +5
    Quote: Bruce Norris
    Far from being the most advanced society degraded even more

    You should go somewhere far away with your propaganda.
    1. bk0010
      bk0010 13 August 2020 14: 53 New
      +4
      This is not propaganda, this is schizophrenia. The object has invented its own world and scolds everyone who disagrees with it or will remain proof. A very unpleasant type.
  • Harry cuper
    Harry cuper 13 August 2020 13: 42 New
    +3
    I am very pleased with the appearance of this article on VO. Firstly, the discussion will help to get rid of some of the established myths of the RYAV, and secondly, it is pleasant to meet with the few competent and sane people who have remained on the site. hi
  • Nehist
    Nehist 13 August 2020 13: 54 New
    +2
    Dear author !!! I'm waiting for the continuation and I'm not the only one !!! And ready for tons of different opinions and criticism)))
  • Pavel73
    Pavel73 13 August 2020 13: 55 New
    +6
    The reason is the combat experience gained by the Japanese after Port Arthur. Experience both in the used shells and in the skill of the personnel. Our second squadron, which died at Tsushima, had neither one nor the other.
    1. rytik32
      13 August 2020 14: 21 New
      +2
      Also correctly noted, although this is not the topic of the cycle. Among the Japanese, accuracy grew from battle to battle.
      1. Harry cuper
        Harry cuper 13 August 2020 15: 18 New
        +2
        The distance of the battles also mattered. EMNIP Russians at Tsushima also shot the best
  • andrew42
    andrew42 13 August 2020 14: 11 New
    +3
    A very interesting topic. We look forward to continuing with interest. Although I suppose that the "shell version" will not be debunked to the end, it will remain corroded, but incomplete. Here, only 100% modeling can dot the i's. Unfortunately this is not possible.
    1. Trapperxnumx
      Trapperxnumx 14 August 2020 12: 28 New
      0
      And even better - a complete reconstruction of ammunition and their full-scale tests
  • parusnik
    parusnik 13 August 2020 15: 33 New
    +2
    In the 7-volume work of the historical commission, it was admitted that "the shells were extremely bad ... supplied with a microscopic charge of explosives with a small blasting force", and land mines equipped with armor-piercing tubes exploded only when they hit the armor.
    .... And then the question, knowing about the quality of the shells, how they were adopted? ..
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 13 August 2020 18: 11 New
      +6
      Quote: parusnik
      .... And then the question, knowing about the quality of the shells, how they were adopted? ..

      On the history of the deterioration of the characteristics of high-explosive projectiles, you can see "The attitude of the Marine Technical Committee to the Chairman of the Investigative Commission in the case of the Tsushima battle. February 1, 1907 No. 234. On No. 34.":
      The test carried out at the same time on steel 6 dm. bombs of the Rudyitsky plant, who had the opportunity to study the production of shells of this kind abroad, showed that for the indicated purposes it is possible to have thin-walled shells sufficiently safe from breaking and breaking in the gun, with good accuracy and a very large explosive charge weight - from 18% to 22½% of the full weight of the loaded projectile.
      Note. Rudnitsky's shells were not tested for destructive action when firing, both because of the small number of them in the delivered batch and because the usefulness of such a large explosive charge was considered undoubted.
      Such shells, called "high-explosive", the Committee thought to introduce for the supply of ships. But in the further development of the case, it turned out that our factories, both state-owned and private, due to the state of their shell equipment, made it difficult to manufacture steel of such high qualities as in Rudnitsky's shells, and it was not imagined to limit ourselves to this one plant, due to its low productivity , from the economic side, possible, in view of the large number of shells to be prepared. At the same time, after considering the calculation of the cost of combat supplies for ships under construction, the Manager of the Maritime Ministry, Admiral Chikhachev, ordered to attend to the cheapening of shells and decided to order the required high quality shells exclusively from state-owned factories. until the private ones lower prices.
      The only way out was to sacrifice the qualities of steel and, so that the shells would not break in the gun, to thicken their walls, reducing the explosive charge. On this basis, the Committee designed high-explosive projectiles with an explosive charge of 7,7% of the total weight of the projectile, while the metal of the projectiles required an elastic limit of 3800 atmospheres with an elongation of 20%.
      But even this requirement turned out to be beyond the strength of our factories, which declared extremely high prices and uncertainty about the possibility of making shells without a big marriage. Therefore, the drawings of the projectiles were again revised, with a decrease in the weight of the explosive charge to 3½% and a decrease in the elastic limit of the metal to 2700 atm., With an elongation of 8%. Shells of this kind were prepared for the supply of ships, later arriving at the 2nd squadron of the Pacific Ocean.
      1. Saxahorse
        Saxahorse 13 August 2020 22: 57 New
        +2
        But there were also cast-iron shells.
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 13 August 2020 18: 12 New
      +5
      In addition, no tests of new high-explosive projectiles were carried out - from the notorious economy:
      ... in 1896, it was planned, according to the idea of ​​the Head of the Ministry, Adjutant General Chikhachev, to carry out extensive experiments in the presence of admirals, flagships and other representatives of the fleet, over all kinds of shells we received, including high-explosive, to determine their destructive actions and clarification of the question: is it possible to reduce the variety of types of shells, and before that - to conduct preliminary experiments of this kind on the Okhtensky field.
      The program of preliminary experiments was presented by the magazine of the Committee on Artillery on March 4, 1897 No. 24, the Head of the Ministry of the Sea, Vice Admiral Tyrtov, who put forward the resolution: “I agree, but in accordance with the funds available for this. Report to the General Directorate. ”
      By relationship No. 9 of April 1897, 6812, the General Directorate of Shipbuilding and Supply informed the Committee that the alleged preliminary experiments would cause an expense of up to 70000 rubles; that on the economic side, the very experiments are no longer of great importance, since the shells required for the ships were made or ordered almost to the full combat set; that it considers it possible to allow the production of experiments only in passing when testing shells, plates, etc. on current gross orders, and that these considerations are approved by the Managing Ministry.
      In a report to the Head of the Marine Ministry, June 20, 1900, No. 2350, the Committee applied for permission to experiment without delay on the installation of tubes of segment projectiles and mentioned that the experiments on all kinds of projectiles supposed in 1897 had not yet been carried out. Adjutant General Avelan issued a resolution: “Such experiments are desirable. Report to the Main Directorate of Shipbuilding and Supplies. " The permission of experiments with tubes for segment projectiles was obtained, while the question of other types of projectiles did not receive any movement.
      No further submissions were made by the Marine Technical Committee about the high-explosive shells.
      © ibid.
    3. Alexandra
      Alexandra 15 August 2020 02: 13 New
      +1
      Quote: parusnik
      And immediately the question, knowing about the quality of the shells, how they were adopted?


      Such high-explosive shells were adopted temporarily, until new ones were developed. But they did not have time to develop and launch new ones.



      For armor-piercing shells, on the one hand, they did not have time to find a phlegmatized explosive that did not explode during penetration of an armor plate with a thickness of the order of the caliber of the projectile.

      https://vtoraya-literatura.com/pdf/ipatiev_zhizn_odnogo_khimika_vospominaniya_tom1_1945_text.pdf
      "Cap. Maksimov ... He was the first to have the idea to introduce such compounds for equipping projectiles that, having sufficient detonating properties, would not explode when passing through solid barriers. So, for example, an armor-piercing projectile equipped with such an explosive should pass through the armor and then explode from the action of the detonator in the shock tube. He shared this idea with me and offered to work with him to implement it. I willingly agreed to this joint work, and began to investigate various combinations of aromatic nitro compounds with picric acid in the laboratory tri-nitrocresol and not only to study their suitability from a physicochemical point of view, but also to investigate their explosive properties in the explosions in the Sarro and Viell bomb.After a year's work, the data obtained were reported to the Commission, and it was decided to carry out experiments on filling the projectiles with the intended explosives . Already after the death of Maksimov, which followed at the beginning le 1898, such combinations of nitro compounds found themselves a great use in the equipment of shells, and my student at the Academy cap. AA Dzerzhkovich, who took the place of Maksimov, successfully continued to develop this issue. "

      On the other hand, they did not manage to develop for armor-piercing projectiles a reliable detonator of delayed (or variable deceleration) action to destroy vital parts of enemy ships.
  • zenion
    zenion 13 August 2020 18: 01 New
    +1
    I read "Tsushima" by Novikov. The book was published in 1912. It was difficult to read because they used letters with which he was little familiar. Then I read what was already published in Soviet times, some words were removed, which changed the concept. But both then and after it was written that the Japanese used a different explosive, and not the one that was used in battles before Tsushima. He writes that Russian shells pierced both sides of Japanese ships and flew over the horizon. If they hit the bridge, or the cannon destroyed it, but there was no explosion. There were many killed and maimed on Russian ships. There were not enough medicines and doctors. Novikov, who took part in all the battles, what's the point in lying? I forgot the name of the explosive used by the Japanese, it seems Shimoza.
    1. Kayuk
      Kayuk 13 August 2020 23: 49 New
      +1
      the Japanese used a different explosive than the one used in the battles before Tsushima.

      I agree with you here.
      Novikov, who participated in all the battles, what's the point in lying

      But not here! He took part in only one battle - Tsushima! And according to the combat schedule, the battalion Novikov was at the infirmary. And he could not see the whole battle from the word - not at all!
      1. Saxahorse
        Saxahorse 14 August 2020 22: 18 New
        +5
        Quote: Kayuk
        And he could not see the whole battle from the word - not at all!

        And who could have seen everything in that battle? Admirals crouched behind the armored parapet from a barrage of shrapnel? Gunners frantically looking for a target in an approximately indicated direction? No one there saw the whole picture. Hot on the heels, immediately after the battle, Novikov began to collect grains of memories and impressions of people who actually participated in the battle and collected from these grains a more or less complete picture of the battle from the point of view of Russian sailors.

        The book of Novikov-Priboy - Tsushima is precisely a set of testimonies of individuals from different ships at different combat posts. If you haven't noticed, it looks like you haven't just read it.
        1. Kayuk
          Kayuk 15 August 2020 02: 22 New
          +3
          If you haven't noticed, it looks like you haven't read it just

          Your Saxahorse logic is strange! If you haven't noticed this, as I understand it, when you read the book, then you haven't read it! I read it, and even several times, especially reread the chapter "BATTLE", when I was still a boy. But then, after reading other books and articles, I became more critical of the author's conclusions, since almost the entire book, especially the chapter "Campaign", is replete with all sorts of exclamations like "We do not want to fight!"
          And the comment could refer to the words that he could not lie. Yes, he did not lie, but only he did not describe everything in the novel, so to speak - correctly.
          You rightly noticed that he began to collect grains of memories and impressions of people who actually participated in the battle and collected from these grains a more or less complete a picture of the battle from the point of view of Russian sailors... But the first edition of this novel was one-sided, or rather a propaganda book. Only sailors fought bravely, but the officers-goldsmiths were not heroes at all, all as one - tyrants, cowards and not positive characters. Alexandrovsky G.B. it is mentioned that the first Soviet editions of the book were very different from the subsequent ones, and subsequently Tsushima was heavily edited towards patriotism ... “Finally, there is a detailed account of the Tsushima battle, made by the former underground revolutionary and sailor Novikov-Priboy, who participated in the battle as a medical orderly and was in the interior of the battleship Orel. The battle itself took place outside of his field of vision, but the Soviet government gave him the opportunity to get acquainted with archival materials and personally interview many participants in the battle who lived in the USSR. Several experienced naval officers were called to help him with their advice. Novikov collected a wealth of material, but what did he do with it? In the first edition of his book, there were almost no positive reviews of his officers. Even Soviet critics were horrified, and in the newspaper "Red Fleet" the novel was severely criticized, demanding that the book be revised and introduced into it, in addition to favorable reviews about the sailors, also positive characteristics of naval officers who participated in the battle. In the second edition, this deficiency was partially eliminated, but by party order, all the dirt collected and invented by Novikov in relation to Admiral Rozhestvensky, whose moral image was supposed to serve to discredit the old regime in the eyes of Soviet readers, was preserved by party orders. For some reason, the heroic deeds of some other worthy officers are ridiculed. Probably, these shortcomings will be partially corrected in subsequent editions. But it is impossible to correct the spirit of the book, filled with defeatism in relation to his homeland, when it was ruled by the historical Russian power, the psychology of philistine cowardice and the physiological hatred of a semi-intellectual for everything that reminds him of his mental inferiority. Is this book, which has received the so-called Stalin Prize and translated into many foreign languages, should remain the only monument in the eyes of the whole world and our posterity about the exceptional upsurge of the national spirit shown by Russian sailors in the battle off the island of Tsushima? " Or another: “In his book, Novikov does his best to discredit Admiral Rozhestvensky and the officers who participated in the battle, whose heroic deeds he ridicules. As a result, the book, translated into many foreign languages, leaves a false and outrageous impression, leading to unfavorable conclusions. "
          And here is an excerpt from another book by the author B.G. Galenin, and please note that Novikov does not even have anything like this in his novel: “There were testimonies from ordinary sailors, where it was said about“ our hero admiral ”. How he bravely on "Suvorov" "went ahead of everyone and sank many Japanese ships." And if it had not been seriously wounded, then the Japanese would have been a khan. And when the respected members of the Investigative Commission tried to these sailors, who had gone through the battle and the Japanese captivity, to open their eyes to the historical truth that the Japanese fleet in Tsushima did not suffer any losses at all, except for three tiny destroyers during night attacks, these sailors laughed and repeated stubbornly: “ We were there, not you, your excellencies and honors. "
          1. Saxahorse
            Saxahorse 15 August 2020 20: 52 New
            +2
            Quote: Kayuk
            but by party order, all the dirt collected and invented by Novikov in relation to Admiral Rozhdestvensky was preserved,

            All the so-called "dirt" addressed to Admiral Rozhdestvensky is quotes from the letters of junior and senior officers of the squadron to their relatives. Most of these officers died under Tsushima through the efforts of the same mediocre admiral Rozhestvensky.

            Of course I read Aleksandrovsky, but I have no kind words for him. His mockery of the memory of the officers who honestly died in battle cannot be called anything but an abomination solely because of the stupidity and mediocrity of his court admiral.

            I recommend once again carefully re-read the references and appendices to the book, where the attitude of ALL squadron officers, both junior and senior, to their commander is explicitly stated. It is not easy to find analogues of such a shocking picture. It is well known that ZPR did not have the slightest experience in managing the unit, and was promoted thanks to an exceptionally loud voice and his famous yell at subordinates. He also knew how to lick the boots of the emperor remarkably and received his court knowledge of the admiral much earlier than the real command post.

            Reread the reviews of his subordinates. There is no doubt that there are clear signs of frank schizophrenia in many of his actions and deeds. Remind me what the witnesses wrote? "He grabbed the officer by the collar and pulled him to him and barely just stopped so as not to bite .." Wild mood swings from black melancholy to violent activity and a stream of orders .. The commander could not even be worse ..

            I will repeat it again. Any of the squadron's junior flagships, and even just commanders, would have fought the Tsushima battle ten times better than the stupid tyrant Rozhdestvensky did!
            1. rytik32
              15 August 2020 22: 36 New
              +1
              It also came to mind how Rozhdestvensky wanted to discharge the guns into the British cruisers following the Hull incident ...
            2. Andrey Shmelev
              Andrey Shmelev 17 August 2020 21: 28 New
              +3
              All the so-called "dirt" addressed to Admiral Rozhdestvensky


              can be as two fingers collected from the materials of the commission of inquiry, starting from the testimony of the torch itself, so that Novikov still writes neatly
            3. Kayuk
              Kayuk 18 August 2020 10: 20 New
              +1
              called "dirt" addressed to Admiral Rozhdestvensky, these are quotes from letters from junior and senior officers of the squadron to their relatives

              Quotes from whom? Lieutenant Vyrubov? To whom Klado, with his articles, liked him very much, but in the active army they met with indignation, and many hotheads called these articles treason to Russia and the Fatherland. And about his letters to his father ... “At the beginning of the exercises conducted at the squadron in Nossi-Be in the combat unit, which was in charge of Lieutenant Vyrubov, there were unpleasant overlaps - such as mines do not fly out of the vehicles, which caused, and possibly more than once, admiral philippics addressed to the junior miner. poured out in letters to his father: "We are completely disappointed in our admiral," he writes on January 22. "This is a man who accidentally earned such a good reputation. In fact, he is a tyrant, devoid of any talents. He has already done and continues make a number of gross mistakes. One hope for his personal courage, thanks to which we will at least have the opportunity to fight well ""
              The senior artilleryman of the "Suvorov" Lieutenant Vladimirsky in his letters to his wife expresses clear dissatisfaction with the Commander: “The Admiral seems to be completely asleep soon. At night, he all fancies rockets, that is, that destroyers are attacking, but in dealing with subordinates he got to the point that he grabbed one destroyer commander, a captain of the 2nd rank, by the collar. "
              So, on the destroyer "Brilliant" because of the drunkenness of the sailors, the boat capsized and three of them drowned, he most likely knew this. What should the Admiral, who had about twenty similar cases a day, with the commander of the "Shiny" Captain 2nd Rank Shamov, who allowed drunkenness, aggravated by the indicated consequences, on board the destroyer?
              And here are the letters of Lieutenant G.G. Gagarin: “December 31, 1904. Madagascar. Nossi-Be. Let's hope that the New Year will bring us more happiness and good luck ... The French assure us that the Japanese squadron is in the Chagos archipelago, 1500 miles away. We will certainly pass these islands; and it would be nice if we met with them; I really believe in our squadron and especially in Rozhdestvensky. It will be terrible if we lose it. The other two admirals do not look like him at all and do not inspire much confidence ... "
              “March 2, 1905. Nossi-Be. Our departure was suddenly decided, and tomorrow at noon we are going, as they say, to the East, but I don’t know where ... Of course, it will not be easy for us now that the Japanese fleet has rested after the Arthur blockade, has again brought ourselves into combat shape and now he was fully prepared to meet us. We will need a lot of happiness and good luck to achieve good results. All faith in the energy, perseverance and ability of Rozhdestvensky ... "
              “April 1, 1905. Kamrang Bay. We safely reached Annam, making 4500 miles in one passage and without going anywhere ..... I am very pleased with our affairs and delighted with the Admiral. If we get to Vladivostok, which I believe, it will be thanks to him. It's amazing how everything is organized and provided for. He himself works terribly hard and never seems to sleep. "
              “April 5, 1905. Kamrang Bay. Lieutenant Kedrov, flag officer of Makarov and Vitgeft, came to our squadron from Kiao-Chao. He tells a lot of interesting things about the fight on July 28 .... It's terribly annoying to hear such stories. What would happen now if the First Squadron was in Vladivostok! You can be sure that nothing like this will happen to our Admiral "...

              From a letter from Lieutenant Sventorzhetsky: “No report, no brightest description is able to depict the whole gravity of the situation at the transitions of the Second Squadron. For the first time in the history of the fleet of the whole world, you have seen a large squadron, which, having no naval bases or coal stations, consisting of ships of all types and ages, dared to move on such a long journey. The political and strategic environment of the voyage is well known, but one had to personally experience the full brunt of these diplomatic negotiations with various administrations in Spain and in the African colonies in order to feel what the Admiral felt. Any Spanish gendarme could humiliate our pride, any commander of an old dilapidated European station with a sense of his own dignity and rightness could make us think about it, not to mention the various demands and hints of the colonial governors. It was necessary to have only tact, restraint and intelligence of Zinovy ​​Petrovich in order to get around all these difficulties without losing the dignity of the squadron entrusted to him. In such a situation, the squadron moved first together, and then in detachments to the destination. "
              From a letter from a sailor of the cruiser "Svetlana" from Japanese captivity: “Dear brother, I inform you about the battle, although you know which ships were killed in the battle, which themselves sunk, and which surrendered. On May 14, the battle began at 10 minutes to 2 in the afternoon, and ended at half an hour on 9 pm. The battle was unbreakable and unquenchable; there were three times more enemy ships than ours. Our new battleships fought well and took on unquenchable fire. Our heroic battleship "Prince Suvorov" was the leader all the time and fought at close range. He drowned many enemy ships here, but he was very beaten here; the entire top of the ship was completely demolished, the masts, pipes were knocked down, as well as small guns completely knocked down, and in addition the entire upper deck was burned down. It was very scary to look at him. Our valiant Admiral Rozhdestvensky was badly wounded, he immediately transferred the squadron under the command of Nebogatov, and he himself moved with his Headquarters to the destroyer "Bedovy". The battle continued all the time, ships died on both sides, but there was no salvation from anywhere ...
              The same, I think, applies to other commanders and ordinary sailors. In general, how many people, so many opinions!
              Of course I read Aleksandrovsky, but I have no kind words for him.

              Naturally, you see only "kind words" from Novikov-Priboy.
              But G.B. Aleksandrovsky was familiar with many participants in the Tsushima battle, whose memoirs, recorded in exile or told to the author and little known in Russia, are included in the book. Aleksandrovsky calls the Tsushima by Frank Tissa, which he repeatedly cites, as a monumental work, noting with bitter regret that over the past 50 years, only a German writer was able to adequately appreciate the greatness of the feat of Admiral Rozhdestvensky and his squadron. In 1943, when the scales in the war in the Pacific swung sharply towards the Americans, and the terrible word “defeat” wafted in the air, it was Frank Tissa’s “Tsushima” that was translated and published in Japan. This heroic-Nordic saga about the adamant Russian admiral was, according to the opinion of the publishers, to serve as an example to the subjects of Mikado, how to stand up to the end for their Empire and their Emperor in hopeless conditions. Still, it is amazing that the spirit of the samurai and kamikaze strengthened the image of our "iron admiral" in the most terrible hours of their unequal struggle! On my own I will say here that "Tsushima" by F. Tissa in Russia has never been translated, let alone published. Very sorry!
              It is well known that ZPR did not have the slightest experience in managing the connection

              he received his court knowledge of the admiral much earlier than the real command post

              Since 1898 - Rear Admiral, Commander of the Training and Artillery Detachment of the Baltic Fleet. In 1900 he gained all-Russian fame thanks to the exceptionally clear organization of work to rescue the battleship "General-Admiral Apraksin", which flew out on the stones near about. Gogland. It is noteworthy that when, after three months of work, the battleship returned to Kronstadt on its own, Rozhestvensky insisted on encouraging and rewarding the officers who distinguished themselves in the operation in strict accordance with the list presented to him.
              I just took it from Vicki ...
              1. Saxahorse
                Saxahorse 18 August 2020 21: 58 New
                0
                Quote: Kayuk
                It was necessary to have only tact, restraint and mind of Zinovy ​​Petrovich in order to get around all these difficulties

                With your permission, I will probably keep this stunning pearl along with some of the best statements of your adherent Andrey from Chelyabinsk. laughing

                The complete absence of common sense and even hints of reality, otherwise it is impossible to call this new fashion for inventing this "New History" for the people. and the dumb working cattle obliged to obediently listen to the supposedly higher birthright.

                Yes .. many more enemy ships will sink "Prince Suvorov" in your fairy tales until your beloved Admiral Rozhestvensky finally surrenders, of course in the most heroic way, to the first Japanese destroyer on the way ..
                1. Andrey Shmelev
                  Andrey Shmelev 19 August 2020 07: 20 New
                  0
                  we just do not understand that in the "Case on the delivery of the destroyer" Bedovy "", when, for example, Lieutenant Leontyev is written "drove the command away from the guns" I mean "jumped on the" Sazanami "and there drove the squint-eyed dirk"
                  (I threw the AiCh idea for a new historical discovery)
                  1. Kayuk
                    Kayuk 19 August 2020 10: 24 New
                    0
                    it was me who gave the AiCh idea for a new historical discovery

                    I looked at what you have here on the site, almost 2000 comments. It was already possible to write an article here myself.
                2. Kayuk
                  Kayuk 19 August 2020 09: 59 New
                  +1
                  A complete lack of common sense and even hints of reality, otherwise this new fashion for inventing this "New History" for the people cannot be called.

                  Saxahorse, I understand that it is difficult for you to get out of the Tsushima complex of Novikov-Priboy, where people are driven to slaughter like cattle, the commanders are not professionals, and the best way to get out of this situation is to throw up your hands! But there are still many other works, including foreign authors, in which this episode of Russian history is told in a completely different way.
                  1. Andrey Shmelev
                    Andrey Shmelev 19 August 2020 18: 34 New
                    +2
                    but it seemed to me that Novikov admires both the "young courage of the old cruiser" and "one against three" and "Wild" and "IA3"
                    very much a patriotic book, IMHO
                  2. Saxahorse
                    Saxahorse 19 August 2020 23: 14 New
                    0
                    Quote: Kayuk
                    But there are still many other works, including foreign authors, in which this episode of Russian history is told in a completely different way.

                    Just a careful study of other materials over and over again confirms the correctness of the first authors and the validity of their conclusions. Moreover, by materials, I still mean neither the ingenious phrases of the Semyonovs, Aleksandorovskys and others who shine except for their successes in pure sophistry.

                    Real works are technical and scientific materials that have appeared in the last couple of decades. And delving into the meaning of the events of the RJV that took place a hundred years ago, you involuntarily understand that most of what was happening was immediately realized in the books of Kostenko and Novikov.

                    The deeper we understand the events of the RJV today, the more obvious is the deeply subjective nature of the defeat that happened. The Russian empire, many times superior to Japan, both economically and militarily, lost due to gross mistakes made both in planning and in direct control of both the country and the fleet specifically.

                    You are trying to invent some incredible reasons that remove responsibility from completely specific individuals and shift it onto abstract "irresistible circumstances." Very convenient for all past and all future rulers. "Grenades of the wrong system" as a universal answer to all failures.
                3. Kayuk
                  Kayuk 19 August 2020 10: 16 New
                  +1
                  I think I'll keep this amazing pearl

                  Be sure to save! Not all the time to quote Silych's quotes from Tsushima. You don't have to stand still, you have to develop, expand your horizons, so to speak!
                  1. Saxahorse
                    Saxahorse 19 August 2020 23: 24 New
                    +1
                    Quote: Kayuk
                    Be sure to save!

                    Of course! With his statement about:
                    .. tact, restraint and intelligence of Zinovy ​​Petrovich ..

                    You just surpassed everyone! wassat

                    The opinion of the mechanical engineer PS Fedyushin, who sailed on the Suvorov: "This is a very stern and ferocious gentleman. Every day, there is a new arrest for one of the officers, and for the most insignificant actions. His name is not good here."


                    opinion of mechanical engineer A.N. Mikhailov, who sailed on the battleship Navarin: "Rozhdestvensky's embitteredness was indescribable. When this happens to him, he jumps out onto the deck, and at first wild sounds erupt from his chest, like an animal;" oo-oo-oo ... . "or" oh-oh-oh- ". It seems to those present that this roar should be heard throughout the squadron. And then selective abuse begins."


                    This is not an invention of the Bolsheviks, these are reviews of officers who have the misfortune to serve under the command of this "admiral". It seems that they know more about the "tact and restraint" of the ZPR. Well, you can put an end to the words of Rozhdestvensky himself:

                    ..Admiral Rozhdestvensky, in a letter from Nossi-Be on March 31, confessed to his wife: "I have completely exhausted the Kolonga, it happens to cry" ("Sea" magazine, 1911, No. 6, p. 64.)


                    Unfortunately for the RI fleet, this admiral was not only pretty stupid, but also extremely disgusting in communication.
                    1. Kayuk
                      Kayuk 20 August 2020 17: 11 New
                      0
                      You just surpassed everyone!

                      Don't lump everything together. I gave you some examples from letters, you gave others. Everyone remained unconvinced. An article about shells, not about an admiral. We are waiting for the continuation from the author.
              2. Andrey Shmelev
                Andrey Shmelev 19 August 2020 07: 06 New
                0
                Rozhestvensky insisted on encouraging and rewarding the officers who distinguished themselves in the operation in strict accordance with the list presented to him.


                here "Andrey Shmelev", for example, all his life insisted that his subordinates should be encouraged not less than what he wrote in the presentation, I think this is a sign of a good leader and a decent person

                I correctly understood that ZPR insisted not only on NOT LESS, but also NOT MORE as well? then this is a characteristic of a dishonest tyrant
                1. Kayuk
                  Kayuk 19 August 2020 10: 09 New
                  +1
                  NOT LESS than what he wrote in the view

                  No need to suck from your finger and guess on the coffee grounds - NOT LESS or NOT MORE. This is not a money issue. Here it is written about the exact correspondence of the list of submissions to the promotion, which could be trimmed until the document reached the top!
                  1. Andrey Shmelev
                    Andrey Shmelev 19 August 2020 18: 27 New
                    +1
                    which could be cut


                    but they could have expanded) it happened to me so regularly
                    why not money? bonuses also happened in addition to my request
                    1. Kayuk
                      Kayuk 19 August 2020 18: 50 New
                      0
                      and could expand

                      It is noteworthy that when, after three months of work, the battleship returned to Kronstadt on its own, Rozhestvensky insisted on encouraging and rewarding the officers who distinguished themselves in the operation in strict accordance with the list presented to him.

                      The list is mentioned here. And the word - remarkable, suggests that most likely BEFORE THIS these lists were cut ...
                      1. Andrey Shmelev
                        Andrey Shmelev 19 August 2020 18: 56 New
                        +1
                        well, who knows that he was stubborn - no doubt about it), and with awards I will tell you a simple example:
                        I personally had to resign in connection with one very interesting story, and then central TV came to shoot a documentary about a small feat - they showed those who were available, but it was not possible to find the hero of the occasion in time. In general, everything happens
            4. Kayuk
              Kayuk 18 August 2020 10: 32 New
              +1
              boots to the emperor, he also knew how

              Do not write nonsense about a person who no longer exists. Here are quotes from the same A.S. Novikov-Priboya ... “The ships of the training artillery detachment, waving their battle flags, made evolutions. They presented a beautiful picture when they made all sorts of turns, taking either the formation of the wake column or the formation of the front. These grand floating fortresses marched on the water as easily as a platoon of soldiers on land. The guns thundered. First, they fired at the shields placed on the island of Carlos, and then at the shields towed by the destroyers. Rozhestvensky, it seemed, did not notice either the Tsar or the Kaiser, and only watched his ships tensely. Sometimes he shouted: - Shoot more often! The maneuvers and shooting continued for three hours. This time they hit the target better than usual. At least all the shields were knocked down, which surprised me greatly. At the end of the maneuvers and firing, Wilhelm, congratulating his colleague, said: I would be happy if I had such talented admirals as your Rozhdestvensky in my fleet. " Novikov was even surprised !!!
              advanced thanks to an exceptionally loud voice and his famous yell at subordinates

              And also throwing government property (binoculars, telescope) from the bridge into the sea ...
              From an interview with Z.D. Spechinsky (great-grandson of Z.P. Rozhdestvensky)
              - Zinovy ​​Dmitrievich, have you read Novikov-Surf's Tsushima? - Sure. - Rozhdestvensky was bred there ... not very ... - Mom said that she first read Tsushima in exile, in the thirties. Then she cried all night: why does the author write about her grandfather with such anger? It seems to me that there was something personal in Novikov's dislike for the admiral. My aunt Olya, her surname Pavlovskaya (she is also mentioned in the book, went through the entire trip on the hospital ship "Oryol", because Rozhdestvensky often visited the "Orel" - and not because, as Novikov-Priboy hints, the aunt's boss was his mistress , this is all sailor gossip), and so, Aunt Olya told me: one of the sailors who served on the quartermaster line committed a serious offense - either stealing or not providing something ... Rozhestvensky ordered this sailor to be flogged in front of everyone crew. Is Novikov just one of the quartermasters? I do not know whether he then fell under the hot hand of Rozhdestvensky or one of his comrades, only this story could affect the attitude. - But many people write that Rozhdestvensky was a complex figure. On the one hand, there is personal courage, the talent of a sailor, the gift of an organizer. On the other - despotism, imbalance, tyranny. They talk about his fatal miscalculations as commander ... - Imagine that Marshal Zhukov won twenty battles, and the twenty-first - decisive - for some reason lost. I think that then, too, the first thing they would have remembered would be: tyrant, unbalanced, despotic. And they would also look for miscalculations, mistakes. It's easy to judge in hindsight. Rozhestvensky went on a campaign with a hastily assembled squadron, where the crews of the ships were not prepared, without close people in the officer corps. We studied on the go, in such a situation, breakdowns are inevitable ...
              Any of the squadron's junior flagships, and even just commanders, would have fought the Tsushima battle ten times better than the stupid tyrant Rozhdestvensky did!

              But what a "smart girl" Nebogatov was! Novikov-Priboy writes in his book Tsushima: “Only due to the fact that he (Nebogatov) knew how to deal humanly with the sailors, in his detachment during the journey everything was settled and there were not only riots, but disciplinary offenses have been gradually reduced... Rozhdestvensky's ships could not boast of this.
              And as a result - delaying at the beginning of the battle of his detachment (Probably the sailors again felt sorry for); not accepting the command of the squadron during the battle with the main forces, after a clear order from EM "Impeccable" (the ship, I feel sorry for myself and the sailors, look like the heads are on fire); violations in the evening of the order on the united movement of the squadron to Vladivostok (Save yourself, who can), well, and the result: - shameful surrender of ships and crews! At the trial, he explained that, since on the morning of May 15, he could no longer cause the enemy any harm, he could only sink the ships and, if possible, save the team. “But I was sure, the admiral said, that at least 75 percent would die and did not dare to sink one and a half thousand of my subordinates with my own hands ... I didn’t have enough spirit! this is my fault ... I was not worried for myself. "
              Vyatka Bogatyr - machine non-commissioned officer Vasily Fedorovich Babushkin, a full Georgievsky cavalier, who received eighteen wounds near Port Arthur and voluntarily transferred to the battleship "Emperor Nicholas I" in Singapore from our consul in Singapore), in order to go on it again into battle, then shouted: "Brothers, what is this going on !? You need to feel sorry for the Motherland, not the soldiers and sailors! The Admiral is not a sister of mercy" ... You couldn't say better! I would also like to note that the essence of the "Packinham Report", if we throw off the duty compliments to the Japanese commander-in-chief, will be as follows: The Russian commander may even have won the Tsushima battle strategically, as a naval commander, but this did not play any role against the firepower, the intensity of fire that the Japanese fleet brought down on him.
              And we are waiting for new publications by the author of the article, it will be interesting to know his opinion about artillery in this battle ...
              1. Andrey Shmelev
                Andrey Shmelev 18 August 2020 19: 06 New
                0
                Do not write nonsense about a person who no longer exists.


                "22) Entering the battle, the ships of the second squadron had from 50 to 70 percent of the normal supply of coal and almost a full set of ammunition. For example, the new battleships, leaving Annam on May 1, 1905, took up to 1600 tons of coal; for two loading in the sea could take about 400, and spent in 13 days, not less than 1400, so that they could have on the morning of May 14 no more than 600 tons. " (from)

                Tell me honestly, do you really believe that on the morning of May 14 there were no more than 600 tons of coal on board the Orel, as shown by the ZPR investigation?

                1. Kayuk
                  Kayuk 19 August 2020 10: 35 New
                  0
                  I responded to Saxahorse's ugly remark about licking boots to the emperor. The article we are commenting on here relates to the artillery in Tsushima. Therefore, we will not mix everything here yet. There will be a continuation of the article about transshipment (including coal), and we will discuss it there. Not ready to discuss it yet!
                  1. Andrey Shmelev
                    Andrey Shmelev 19 August 2020 18: 16 New
                    +1
                    ok, don't believe in coal, and that's okay,
                    let's discuss the human qualities of CRA in a relevant article with links to specific facts and documents
              2. Andrey Shmelev
                Andrey Shmelev 18 August 2020 19: 09 New
                0
                Do not write nonsense about a person who no longer exists.


                "19) The squadron was not painted gray because matte black better hides ships at night from mine attacks." (from)

                Tell me honestly, do you seriously believe that bright yellow pipes are invisible at night, and not specially made for better identification?
                1. Kayuk
                  Kayuk 19 August 2020 10: 27 New
                  0
                  bright yellow pipes are invisible at night

                  The third detachment of Nebogatov was not detected by the Japanese destroyers at night.
                  1. Andrey Shmelev
                    Andrey Shmelev 19 August 2020 18: 18 New
                    0
                    so it is not for, but in spite of)
              3. Andrey Shmelev
                Andrey Shmelev 18 August 2020 19: 16 New
                0
                Do not write nonsense about a person who no longer exists.


                "So, for example, in my squadron, an instruction was developed for the verification of rangefinders, and the very verification was practiced already from the very entry into the Indian Ocean, while this issue was not even raised at the squadron of Admiral Rozhestvensky, and only after getting acquainted with the formulation of this case on the ships of my detachment, Admiral Rozhdestvensky issued instructions - a damaged copy of mine, and began checking the rangefinders a few days before the battle.No instructions were developed for preparing ships for battle, in a word, in tactical and combat terms, Rozhdestvensky's squadron represented itself some rabble of ships, having nothing in common with each other, not guided by any principles, but only absorbed in worries about loading coal and rehearsing extremely complex signals of the most peaceful content.
                But an even more depressing impression on all of us, new arrivals, was made by the moral state of all the personnel of Admiral Rozhestvensky's squadron.
                Commanders of ships and officers of Rozhdestvensky's squadron were outraged and deeply offended by his rude, arrogant and contemptuous treatment of them; such an appeal lowered their prestige in the eyes of their subordinates ...
                It is clear that with such an appeal, the admiral generated among the commanders and officers an oppressed, embittered state of mind and everyone was impatiently and submissively waiting for some kind of end, safe or not, just to get out of such an inhuman situation as soon as possible.
                The moral state of the lower ranks was also no better: exhausted by a long, difficult campaign, meaningless, often completely useless, reloading coal from one transport to another, dejected by idle, clearly not having any military value, exercises (for example, boat exercises were carried out in Madagascar, landing, catching mines - and combat firing, although it was carried out, but very rarely, and moreover in some naively childish conditions), the admiral's little concern for the preservation of their forces, the rude treatment of the admiral himself, who did not hesitate to beat the signalmen, messengers with his own hands and others - all this instilled in them a spirit of discontent, expressed in repeated riots on the ships of the squadron. "

                from the testimony of Nebogatov
                1. Kayuk
                  Kayuk 19 August 2020 00: 38 New
                  +1
                  by such an appeal, the admiral created among the commanders and officers, an oppressed, embittered state of mind

                  By this you mean to say that the testimony of Rear Admiral Nebogatov, who lost his honor with the descent of the Andreevsky flag on the ships of the squadron entrusted to him, can counter my answer?
                  1. Andrey Shmelev
                    Andrey Shmelev 19 August 2020 06: 51 New
                    0
                    I want to say that ZPR is regularly caught on lies, which is at the same time
                    1. unscrupulous
                    2. stupid
                    How shameless and stupid it is to lie about no more than 600 tons of coal on the morning of May 14 and think that he will not be caught by the hand right there?
                    I think that the issue of professionalism of "ZPR and his team" can be closed

                    can parry my answer?


                    and in fact, with all due respect to the leader of the "Sudden Owl" group, I believe that the materials of the investigation commission are a more convincing source of information

                    with a human? well, as it were, the ground for thought has already appeared, despite the fact that the characteristics of the ZPR coincide almost literally with Nebogatov and Novikov (in itself says a lot) - here I am ready to discuss

                    just let's be constructive, otherwise:

                    Imagine that Marshal Zhukov won twenty battles, and the twenty-first - the decisive one - for some reason lost

                    Please read the TWENTY battles won by ZPR
                    1. Kayuk
                      Kayuk 19 August 2020 09: 47 New
                      +1
                      the characteristic of ZPR coincides almost literally with Nebogatov and Novikov

                      When almost half of the squadron bravely died in battle, those who lost heart and surrendered, inevitably begin to look for an excuse for their deed, often betraying those with whom they just went into battle! There are a lot of examples of such actions.
                      1. Andrey Shmelev
                        Andrey Shmelev 19 August 2020 18: 23 New
                        0
                        those who lost heart and gave up


                        Are you talking about the ZPR and its headquarters?

                        involuntarily begin to look for an excuse for their act


                        Are you talking about the shameless and stupid lie of the ZPR?

                        sorry for the harshness, but it is not at all worthwhile to expose the ZPR and its headquarters as a collective Gastello
                      2. Kayuk
                        Kayuk 19 August 2020 19: 42 New
                        0
                        Are you talking about the ZPR and its headquarters?

                        I'm talking about Nebogatov and the hedgehog with him ..... Rozhdestvensky and his headquarters, this is a separate conversation. And not in this article ...
                      3. Andrey Shmelev
                        Andrey Shmelev 19 August 2020 19: 44 New
                        +2
                        accepted) waiting for a relevant article
          2. Andrey Shmelev
            Andrey Shmelev 18 August 2020 19: 40 New
            0
            Do not write nonsense about a person who no longer exists.


            “On the very first shooting, it became clear that the readings of the Barr and Stroud rangefinders were completely fantastic and inconsistent; in order to put them in order, in the morning of the next day, a whole series of mutual checks of distance determination was undertaken. columns and, according to the developed scheme, measured the distance in order to all ships, and these ships simultaneously showed each other the distances with signals, so that, by the end of the measurements, the flagship already had a table of all measured distances, which made it possible to judge the results achieved. The admiral insistently demanded daily checks on the luminaries and, in the end, achieved a more or less plausible determination of the distances.
            When the detachment joined the 2nd squadron and our orders were read there, then, on the transition from Annam, an order appeared to check the rangefinders, in relation to the method we practiced, but with an addition that destroyed all its significance. Namely: the distances from the Zhemchug and Izumrud, which departed to the traverse, were shown only to the head ones - Suvorov and Oslyabya, and the rest of the ships had to, while measuring the distances to the cruiser, take into account their place for verification, i.e. That is, the distance to the head in the column and divide the traverse distance from "Suvorov" or "Oslyabya" (in the left column) to the cruiser by the sine of the course angle, under which the cruiser was visible. Since the distances in the column were not observed accurately and were also measured by a rangefinder, it is clear that the whole operation did not reach the goal at all. It was conducted randomly and was not checked by anyone, the signals on the heads were often obscured by smoke from bad Westphalian coal and it was necessary to read distances from rehearsal ships; I, personally, have not seen a single valid check in this complicated way. "

            from the testimony of Cross
            1. Kayuk
              Kayuk 19 August 2020 11: 01 New
              0
              personally, I have not seen a single valid check in this complicated way

              How wonderful it was while we were walking in a separate detachment ..... Flag-Captain Cross, whom you cite here as an example, he PERSONALLY rushed to the box with flags and dialed a signal. He sent not the sailor, but himself. The conclusions are clear.
              Flag-Captain Cross immediately found the book of the international code and, looking at the right page, rushed to the box with the flags. He himself dialed a three-flag signal: "ShZhD", which meant "surrender", "surrender." The signal was immediately attached to the halyard, and all that remained was to hoist it onto the mast. This is from "Tsushima" Novikov-Priboy.
              1. Andrey Shmelev
                Andrey Shmelev 19 August 2020 18: 15 New
                +1
                1.Kross gave up because he and a bunch of people were framed by ZPR
                2. from the "drove away from the guns" we hear)
  • Constanty
    Constanty 13 August 2020 18: 17 New
    +1
    Flagship navigator Captain 2nd Rank De-Livron, who was on the battleship "Prince Suvorov", compares the nature of the holes from Russian and Japanese shells


    In the Tsushima battle, the entire crew of the battleship "Prince Suvorov" died, not counting 20 people who, together with the adm. Roestvensky went over to the destroyer "Buiny".
    As far as I understand, Sergei Rudolfovich de Livron (Delivron) was among them?
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 13 August 2020 18: 51 New
      +4
      Quote: Constanty
      As far as I understand, Sergei Rudolfovich de Livron (Delivron) was among them?

      Hmmm ... there were two navigators De-Livronov (Delivronov) for 2 TOE.
      Konstantin Rudolfovich De-Livron - appointed junior navigational officer on the battleship Borodino, on which he died during the battle.
      Sergei Rudolfovich de Livron (Delivron) - appointed flagship navigator of the marching headquarters of the junior flagship of the 2nd Pacific squadron of Rear Admiral OA Enquist. And together with the headquarters after the battle he came to Manila on "Oleg".
      1. Constanty
        Constanty 13 August 2020 18: 55 New
        +1
        So why did the author put it on the battleship "Prince Suvorov"? I didn't like it right away, because the Tsushima battle had interested me for several years.
        Therefore, it did not suit me right away, because it seemed to me that Suvorov was no longer alive.
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 13 August 2020 18: 56 New
          0
          Quote: Constanty
          So why did the author put it on the battleship "Prince Suvorov"? I didn't like it right away, because the Tsushima battle had interested me for several years.

          Well, yes, it's kind of strange. Yes and thirteenth strike rule nobody canceled.
          1. sevtrash
            sevtrash 13 August 2020 21: 15 New
            0
            Quote: Alexey RA
            And nobody canceled the rule of thirteenth strike.

            And since everyone is wrong sooner or later, total distrust will turn out))
        2. rytik32
          13 August 2020 21: 08 New
          +8
          I was wrong, I confess. on "Oleg" he was
  • nnz226
    nnz226 13 August 2020 21: 33 New
    +1
    Well, according to eyewitnesses, the 2nd Pacific Squadron, moving through the tropics, received an order to increase the moisture content of pyroxylin in the shells in order to avoid their spontaneous combustion, which in battle gave a bunch of refusals in the explosion ... And the fact of the sinking of a heap of the newest battleships as a result of artillery fire Japanese (after all, they were not flooded by their teams, like the "Varyag"), speaks of the effectiveness and advantage of Japanese fire. The Japanese battleships, having suffered perhaps, all remained afloat ...
    1. Kayuk
      Kayuk 13 August 2020 23: 26 New
      +2
      nnz226 (Nikolay)
      Today, 21: 33
      Well, according to eyewitnesses, the 2nd Pacific Squadron, moving through the tropics, was ordered to increase the humidity of pyroxylin in the shells in order to avoid their spontaneous combustion

      I would like to hear specifics on this score! This is not the first time I have met such an OBS, such as: "from the words of a famous academician", "and they also say that they brought the shells on a sleigh and threw them right into the snow", "if you believe eyewitnesses," "I heard that there was a sabotage, and instead of 10% water, 80% was poured "...... Reminds Russian folk tales, such as" The earth is filled with hearing ... "And nothing that the RIF before that went to the Far East also THROUGH THE TROPICALS (the Suez Canal belongs to them) SevmorPuti not yet! And no emergency was recorded in the shell cellars. And only before the 2nd TOE campaign, it was suddenly decided to increase the moisture content of pyroxylin !!! So here I want to say in the words of K.S. Stanislavsky - "I DO NOT BELIEVE!"
      The commentator gave a plus for something else. On the "efficiency and advantage of Japanese fire." Here, I think the dog is buried! I believe the eyewitness Semenov V.I. and his "Reckoning", which mentions new and strange Japanese shells-mines. The Japanese burned our ships and sailors in the prototype of napalm!
      Thanks to the author for this thread! We look forward to continuing! The article promises to be interesting, but the first part is about nothing yet. It seems to me that it would be intriguing if the author mentioned the outline of his future articles or points. And yet I put a plus!
    2. Harry cuper
      Harry cuper 14 August 2020 11: 47 New
      +3
      I apologize, but nowhere have I seen descriptions of how the shells were disassembled during the campaign, removed from the SEALED containers of explosives, moistened with distilled water, sealed again in a brass container and returned to the shell.
  • Yuriy Nikolaev
    Yuriy Nikolaev 13 August 2020 21: 40 New
    -3
    The Japanese used Shimozu in the form of explosives, the Russian Navy used moistened pyroxylin. During the campaign of the Russian squadron to Tsushima, knowing that they would have to go in the subtropics and tropics, the pyroxylin was additionally moistened in case of moisture evaporation, but they overdid it and overmoistened, as a result of which the effectiveness of the shells was reduced.
    1. Kayuk
      Kayuk 14 August 2020 00: 22 New
      +2
      pyroxylin was additionally moistened in case of moisture evaporation, but overdone and overmoistened

      Can you confirm this with facts? After all, this is a whole operation with the unloading of the entire ammunition load, loading into trains, delivery to the plant, etc. And then, how did it become known that they were overmoistened? Did the Japanese write to our Naval Department after examining the ammunition of the captured ships?
      1. Andrey Shmelev
        Andrey Shmelev 15 August 2020 15: 37 New
        0
        Is it possible to overmoisten not wet pyroxylin in the projectile equipment, but dry pyroxylin - a primer?
        1. Kayuk
          Kayuk 15 August 2020 17: 19 New
          0
          Let's wait for the next article by the author. The questions are very interesting here.
  • Peter Shmakov
    Peter Shmakov 13 August 2020 21: 45 New
    +2
    As my uncle (by the way, the former commander of the nuclear submarine) says: "The score is on the scoreboard!" There is a fact; the Japanese squadron melted the Russian and did it with the help of the fire of their guns. The conclusion suggests itself - their shells were effective, but the Russians (if they hit the target at all) were not.
    If you want to refute this version, then you will have to present your explanation of what happened and nothing else!
    1. rytik32
      13 August 2020 23: 21 New
      +2
      My version: this is the low quality of ship building and overload. But this is beyond the scope of this cycle. In the next article, I will describe how the outdated battleship did not drown on tests from about 420 shell hits (in Tsushima, not a single ship ever got so much), and there was no struggle for its survivability.
  • Saxahorse
    Saxahorse 13 August 2020 23: 16 New
    +6
    Thanks for the interesting article! The topic is interesting, I will look forward to the continuation.

    I would like to add a small detail. Reading the testimony of the gunners to the investigative committee, I noticed that the gunners at that time were not complaining about pipes and pyrokislin. First of all, they complained about the complete absence of a projectile burst marker. The projectile did not explode when hitting the water, it gave only a small splash. Unlike the huge fountain of Japanese shells. If during short distances there is a chance to see something, then during flights the place of fall is not visible at all. The problem even if it hits, the flash inside the case is not visible and pyrokislin almost does not smoke. After Tsushima, the gunners suggested adding a portion of black powder to the charge, and even painted specifically for sighting shells, and making more sensitive tubes for them.

    In general, the RI fleet had a huge problem with zeroing. In practice, they could not adjust their fire. Which, of course, had an extremely sad effect on the total number of hits.
    1. rytik32
      13 August 2020 23: 32 New
      +7
      Greetings!
      Here are just Cherkasov, an artillery officer from "Peresvet", wrote:
      10-dm:
      a) Zeroing. Cast iron, equipped with black powder - clearly visible.
      b) On armored ships. From 100 to 60 cables - cast iron; from 60 to 35 cables: the right gun - high-explosive, and the left one - armor-piercing; with 35 cables and less - armor-piercing.
      c) By non-armored ships. From 100 to 35 cables - cast iron; with 35 cables and less - high-explosive.
      d) On destroyers. If possible, do not shoot, and if it is very clearly visible - cast iron or what the gun is loaded with.

      For some reason, he had no problems with zeroing)))
      1. Saxahorse
        Saxahorse 13 August 2020 23: 41 New
        +4
        Quote: rytik32
        For some reason, he had no problems with zeroing

        Probably because there was no black powder in cast-iron shells. It is curious that they were also apparently torn. Those. and he apparently had no problems with pipes.

        But in general, these are not Cherkasov's experiments, but an excerpt from the artillery instruction of that time. You can find it in other sources as well. So it is quite possible that this "clearly visible" is only a good wish of theorists. Not the fact that it was confirmed in practice.
      2. Alexandra
        Alexandra 15 August 2020 02: 33 New
        +1
        Rozhestvensky ordered the use of large-caliber armor-piercing shells at a distance of 20 cables or less, medium calibers, 15 cables and less.

        In the 2nd TOE, zeroing in with single medium-caliber fire was practiced. The Japanese also practiced sighting with medium-caliber volleys.

        The percentage of hits by ships of the 1st TOE during the battle in the Yellow Sea was actually not high, which means there were problems with zeroing.
        1. Andrey152
          Andrey152 15 August 2020 08: 26 New
          +1
          According to official instructions, it was supposed to fire with armor-piercing shells at distances up to 20 cab
        2. rytik32
          15 August 2020 22: 14 New
          +3
          Quote: AlexanderA
          The percentage of hits by ships of the 1st TOE during the battle in the Yellow Sea was actually not high, which means there were problems with zeroing.

          So the distance was greater than under Tsushima. And the problem with hitting Mikasa was that you couldn't see your own bursts among the others. But "Poltava" with 80 cables effectively got into "Yakumo" - somehow they were able to shoot!
          1. Saxahorse
            Saxahorse 16 August 2020 23: 28 New
            +2
            Quote: rytik32
            But the "Poltava" with 80 cables effectively hit the "Yakumo" - somehow they were able to shoot!

            Once they could have accidentally hit. :) Someone posted on the topvar a photo of a splash from the fall of a Russian shell near Mikasa. Frankly speaking, it is not impressive, and the height is much lower than the side and such a splash settles very quickly. Compare with the fountain in the photo in the Japanese article you posted. Twice as high as the pipes! And fine water dust from the explosion settles for a long time.
  • Comrade
    Comrade 14 August 2020 02: 21 New
    +5
    In the testimony of Rear Admiral N.I. Nebogatov, he said that he saw with his own eyes the battleships Mikasa and Fuji the day after the battle with practically no damage: “... as if these ships had been on practice shooting the day before, and did not participate in fierce battle. " And he noticed one small, practically round hole in the Mikasa's side from our shell, which probably "split into large pieces, without causing any damage around, except for a broken water pipe and damaged paint"

    Here is a fragment of the plating of the battleship "Mikasa", which Nebogatov chose to "overlook".

    And, of course, it wasn't profitable for him to see "Nisshin" either.

    the admiral names the reasons for the unsatisfactory operation of our ammunition:
    1. Unsuccessful design of fuses, as a result of which 75% of our shells did not explode.

    How could he know that, the Japanese allowed him to survey the entire United Fleet and make a statistical study?

    By the way, Nebogatov, apparently, felt something like shame in captivity in front of the Japanese for surrendering. One of the British attachés wrote that Nebogatov told Togo that he had surrendered because there were not enough shells left. And then the Englishman adds that Japanese officers went to the battleships, looked at the remains of the shells and exposed Nebogatov's lies.
    When I read this episode, I really wanted to spit, it became so disgusting. In Russia, he rubbed in on the court, as if he wanted to save the lives of the young, and not about the alleged lack of shells.
    1. Graz
      Graz 14 August 2020 04: 38 New
      +3
      Tsushima campaign was lost not by Nebogatov, but by Rozhdestvensky
      1. Trapperxnumx
        Trapperxnumx 14 August 2020 12: 38 New
        +2
        Nebogatov took over the squadron, in which 8 of the 12 ships of the line still remained in service and did nothing to protect the remaining ones from mine attacks.
        1. Andrey Shmelev
          Andrey Shmelev 15 August 2020 22: 18 New
          0
          Nebogatov took over a squadron in which 8 of the 12 ships of the line were still in service and did nothing


          announce the victory plan for Nebogatov, psta
          1. Harry cuper
            Harry cuper 19 August 2020 11: 16 New
            +2
            only The Thin Red Line plan is visible. At one time, under similar circumstances, Major General Campbell told his soldiers: “There will be no order to withdraw, boys. You must die where you stand "
            1. Andrey Shmelev
              Andrey Shmelev 19 August 2020 18: 14 New
              0
              At one time in similar circumstances


              it is difficult to think of a more stupid comment

              I personally haven’t seen many verbal heroes, everyone turned out to be tested by cowardly vile scum, excuse me, a brave and decent person knows the price of self-sacrifice, therefore he will not be scattered with lives, neither in words nor in deeds
              1. Harry cuper
                Harry cuper 19 August 2020 19: 32 New
                0
                Maybe it's enough to flood?
    2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 14 August 2020 08: 22 New
      +5
      Quote: Comrade
      Here is a fragment of the plating of the battleship "Mikasa", which Nebogatov chose to "overlook".

      Dear colleague, isn't it after the explosion of Mikasa?
      1. Comrade
        Comrade 14 August 2020 16: 02 New
        +2
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Dear colleague, isn't it after the explosion of Mikasa?

        No, dear colleague, this is the result of the hits of Russian shells in the Tsushima battle.
        wink
        This fragment was installed in the mountains near the temple to Admiral Togo.
    3. rytik32
      14 August 2020 14: 30 New
      +3
      And the aft tower "Fuji" also did not look "like an exercise")))
      1. Comrade
        Comrade 14 August 2020 16: 06 New
        +3
        Quote: rytik32
        And the aft tower "Fuji" also did not look "like on the exercises"

        Yes, Nebogatov saw everything, he just lied, saving his skin in court.
        1. rytik32
          15 August 2020 10: 58 New
          +4
          A thought flashed through my mind that all information about the horrors of schizoma comes only from those who had something to justify themselves for (surrender or flight to Manila). But in the testimony of those who fought heroically to the end, there is no miracle shimosa.
          Please support or deny.
          1. Comrade
            Comrade 15 August 2020 16: 07 New
            +1
            Quote: rytik32
            A thought flashed through my mind that all information about the horrors of schizoma comes only from those who had something to justify themselves for (surrender or flight to Manila). But in the testimony of those who fought heroically to the end, there is no miracle shimosa.
            Please support or deny.

            Something that is, in a few days should appear on the site in a small opus on the shooting in Tsushima. She is also Shimoza at Cape Shantung Shimoza, but last night I came across a nuance.
            1. Saxahorse
              Saxahorse 15 August 2020 21: 11 New
              0
              Quote: Comrade
              She is also Shimoza at Cape Shantung Shimoza, but last night I came across a nuance.

              The question is interesting by definition. :) Will you post this in a separate article or will there be comments on the author's next article?
            2. rytik32
              15 August 2020 21: 12 New
              +1
              I look forward to!
              1. Comrade
                Comrade 15 August 2020 21: 29 New
                +2
                Quote: rytik32
                I look forward to!

                Right now I'm working on the last paragraphs, I'll send them for moderation in about six hours. Among other things, I will present my reasonable version of the number of medium-caliber shells hit by Oslyaby.
                Yes, you have "Emperor Nicholas I" after Tsushima in the article, here is a close-up of the damage to his pipe.
                1. Kayuk
                  Kayuk 19 August 2020 12: 39 New
                  0
                  Dear "Comrade"! Can I link to your article?
        2. Andrey Shmelev
          Andrey Shmelev 15 August 2020 22: 17 New
          0
          Yes, Nebogatov saw everything, he just lied, saving his skin in court.


          Would you have kicked macaques in Nebogatov's place?
          1. Comrade
            Comrade 15 August 2020 22: 22 New
            +3
            Quote: Andrey Shmelev
            Would you have kicked macaques in Nebogatov's place?

            If I were Nebogatov, I would try to behave the way Captain 1st Rank V.N. Miklukh behaved.
            1. Andrey Shmelev
              Andrey Shmelev 15 August 2020 23: 03 New
              -1
              I would be in Nebogatov's place


              and your whole life is a continuous self-sacrifice for the sake of the Motherland?
              1. Harry cuper
                Harry cuper 19 August 2020 11: 18 New
                +1
                It's hard to think of a more stupid question
    4. Andrey Shmelev
      Andrey Shmelev 15 August 2020 23: 06 New
      +1
      And, of course, it wasn't profitable for him to see "Nisshin" either.


      it is much more like two facts of detonation of shells in the barrels + ineffective hit of the shell in the armor
      1. Senior seaman
        Senior seaman 16 August 2020 09: 10 New
        +2
        Apparently, it was so. Thank God, at least Misa was wounded by our shell.
  • Graz
    Graz 14 August 2020 04: 37 New
    +4
    well, past the shells. there are many other factors
    this is the general training of the crews, so to speak, flying off, better technical condition and quality of ships, better management, better supply and repair (availability), as far as read the best Japanese gunners were specially transferred from the entire fleet to class 1 ships battleships and armored cruisers of the line, the best nutrition.
    As for me, it was not worth fighting with the navy in this war, because Japan had too great a general advantage in this, here's another disadvantage to our intelligence, and in fact most of this could be analyzed after the Japanese-Chinese naval confrontation. Plus support for Japan. by the British and in many respects Americans
  • Andrey152
    Andrey152 14 August 2020 06: 50 New
    +2
    A very interesting article, I look forward to continuing!
    "Slava" did not shoot at Sveaborg, here Novikov was mistaken. Shot "Tsesarevich" and problems with the explosions of 12-inch shells are described in Melnikov. As a matter of fact, the statement of Nebogatov about the small charge of the explosives and low-sensitivity tubes is confirmed. In addition, the tubes clearly had a weak intermediate detonator, so that the pyroxylin gave an incomplete break.
    1. Kuzmich Sibiryakov
      Kuzmich Sibiryakov 14 August 2020 22: 19 New
      +1
      Quote: Andrey152
      A very interesting article, I look forward to continuing!
      "Slava" did not shoot at Sveaborg, here Novikov was mistaken. Shot "Tsesarevich" and problems with the explosions of 12-inch shells are described in Melnikov. As a matter of fact, the statement of Nebogatov about the small charge of the explosives and low-sensitivity tubes is confirmed. In addition, the tubes clearly had a weak intermediate detonator, so that the pyroxylin gave an incomplete break.

      The weakness of pyroxylin was also affected by its ability to absorb moisture from the air. Having passed the equator, he was well fed.
      1. Andrey152
        Andrey152 15 August 2020 08: 29 New
        +4
        No, the charge of pyroxylin received its percentage of moisture during manufacture. Then it was placed in a sealed brass case and installed in the projectile, the bottom of the projectile was screwed, instead of the tube, the bottom screw was screwed in. There was nowhere to get extra moisture
  • Andrey Popov
    Andrey Popov 14 August 2020 10: 42 New
    -2
    The author is not aware that shimgoza was first used in Tsushima? Before this battle, the Japanese, like the Russians, used pyroxylin and melinite.
    1. rytik32
      14 August 2020 12: 01 New
      +4
      I'm curious. And what is the difference between melinitis and shimosa?
      1. Saxahorse
        Saxahorse 14 August 2020 22: 27 New
        +1
        Quote: rytik32
        And what is the difference between melinitis and shimosa?

        By the way, there are differences. For example, aluminum was added, which increased the flash point and, as a result, high explosiveness.
        1. rytik32
          14 August 2020 23: 47 New
          +1
          But I've just spent a couple of hours figuring out this issue and I got the impression that adding aluminum is a bike. At least not a single serious source writes this. But I found confirmation that shimosa is 1 to 1 melinitis. Just our research on captured Japanese munitions.
          1. Senior seaman
            Senior seaman 15 August 2020 15: 09 New
            +2
            As far as I understand, Shimose did not invent explosives (he was known for a long time), but a method of equipping projectiles, which, by the way, is not at all simple.
            1. Saxahorse
              Saxahorse 15 August 2020 21: 15 New
              0
              I agree that it is not easy. But ensuring quality control when investing is in itself a feat of Hercules. It is easy to guess that the slightest weakening of the charge will lead to friction of the shell of the charge against the metal of the inner surface of the projectile. Which can lead to the formation of scuffs and contact of picric acid with steel. (hello Mikase!)
              1. Senior seaman
                Senior seaman 16 August 2020 08: 47 New
                +1
                See on AI two articles from the cycle "BB over a glass of tea", there is a description of the methods of equipping the shells with picric acid. Just Shimose and the French.
                I don't remember which one. But they are small and generally interesting.
  • Trapperxnumx
    Trapperxnumx 14 August 2020 12: 19 New
    0
    Hooray! Another great topic!
  • Kuzmich Sibiryakov
    Kuzmich Sibiryakov 14 August 2020 22: 17 New
    -2
    https://www.litmir.me/br/?b=98503&p=1

    Kostenko Vladimir Polievktovich.
    On the "Eagle" in Tsushima: Memoirs of a participant in the Russian-Japanese war at sea in 1904-1905.
    The book is incredibly interesting because it was written by the shipbuilder, the creator of the Russian battleship "Eagle". Developed its design from the very beginning. He quite objectively describes the events, especially since he was not a naval officer by profession (he received a uniform just before the campaign), he is free from the heat of a warrior who received a strong insult from defeat. The description is replete with photographs, descriptions of defeats from Japanese shells, draws conclusions about the successful and not successful design features of the Russian ships of that time.
    And here are the photos:
    http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/kostenko_vp/ill.html
    1. rytik32
      14 August 2020 22: 27 New
      +5
      Is Kostenko the creator of "Eagle" ???
      1. Kuzmich Sibiryakov
        Kuzmich Sibiryakov 14 August 2020 22: 32 New
        -2
        Quote: rytik32
        Is Kostenko the creator of "Eagle" ???

        .... "But the interest in the important historical stages lived in the past by our Motherland among the new, Soviet generations does not wane. The themes of the heroic defense of the Port Arthur fortress, the circumstances of naval battles in the Yellow and Japan Seas, the death in the waters of the Pacific Ocean, first , and then the second Russian squadron, as before, arouses wide interest among the Soviet reader.This circumstance prompts me to share my memories, which to some extent will help to more specifically illuminate the history of the largest naval operation of the Russian fleet in the war of 1904-1905, which ended in a tragic battle in the Tsushima Strait.

        After graduating from the Naval Engineering School in Kronstadt in the year the Russian-Japanese war began, I was immediately assigned from school to complete the construction and armament of the battleship "Eagle", included in the 2nd Pacific Squadron, which during the war was sent to the Pacific Ocean under the command of Admiral Rozhdestvensky.

        Upon the readiness of the "Eagle" I was enlisted on this battleship as a ship ship engineer and on it I made the entire trip across three oceans to the Tsushima Strait ... "
        This is an excerpt from his book.
        Yes, I looked at Vicki now. My memory let me down, of course, I was a participant in the construction. I will clarify.
  • Alexandra
    Alexandra 15 August 2020 01: 31 New
    +2
    Quote: Pushkowed
    The TNT equivalent of trinitrophenol (aka melinite, shimose, liddite) is approximately 1,0. For pyroxylin, about 0,9.


    http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/Gun_Data_p2.php

    Bursting Charge Power - The following approximations of explosive power may be used using TNT = 1.00 as a reference point. Before and during World War I

    Black powder = 0.33 to 0.50
    Guncotton = 0.50
    Picric Acid = about 1.05 to 1.10
    USA Explosive D = 0.95

    Guncotton is pyroxylin. Picric Acid is Trinitrophenol.
    1. Saxahorse
      Saxahorse 15 August 2020 21: 20 New
      0
      Quote: AlexanderA
      Picric Acid = about 1.05 to 1.10

      And there is. Moreover, there were numbers that were not even 1.1 but even 1.15 :)
      1. Alexandra
        Alexandra 16 August 2020 20: 50 New
        0
        A little clarification ... We're interested in our 12 "Tsushima projectiles with a bursting charge of smokeless powder? Guncotton = 0.50 is clearly the TNT equivalent of a bursting charge of smokeless pyroxylin powder. Pressed wet pyroxylin still has a TNT equivalent higher, albeit below one. If the total charge detonation of course.
        1. Saxahorse
          Saxahorse 16 August 2020 23: 38 New
          +1
          Quote: AlexanderA
          The TNT equivalent of pressed wet pyroxylin is still higher, albeit below unity

          Still above one. Wet pyrokislin is similar to melinite, but requires a fair amount of fiddling with temperature and humidity control in cellars.
          1. Alexandra
            Alexandra 17 August 2020 23: 53 New
            +1
            "To recalculate the TNT equivalent into the mass of a specific explosive charge, the charge power, expressed in TNT equivalent, must be multiplied by a factor h equal to the ratio Qtnt / QBV. Where: Qtnt = 4240 kJ / kg"

            TNT "The velocity of detonation is 6900 m / s at a density of 1.6 g / cm3. High explosiveness is 285 ± 7 ml. The volume of products is 730 l / kg."

            Nitrocellulose, nitrocellulose: "In terms of the force of the explosion, it is somewhat inferior to TNT. Heat of explosion 3.2 - 4.0 MJ / kg depending on the degree of nitration. For NC with 13.1% N, the detonation speed is 6500 m / s at a density. 1.3 g / cm3. High explosiveness 375 ml. Efficiency in a ballistic mortar 118% of TNT. The volume of explosion products is 765 ml. For water containing 16% - 6800 m / s, explosiveness 280 ml. Explosion volume 720 l / kg. "
            1. Andrey Shmelev
              Andrey Shmelev 18 August 2020 00: 14 New
              0
              TNT:
              Heat of explosion - from 4,103 MJ / kg to 4,605 MJ / kg
              https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Тринитротолуол

              when compared with
              Heat of explosion 3.2 - 4.0 MJ / kg

              then it is NOT a little bit less
              1. Alexandra
                Alexandra 18 August 2020 01: 12 New
                0
                Water in wet pyroxylin (in comparison with dry pyroxylin) reduces the heat of explosion and high explosiveness, increasing the detonation velocity and blasting.
                1. Andrey Shmelev
                  Andrey Shmelev 18 August 2020 07: 22 New
                  0
                  so here I am about it

                  you have not specified
                  For NC with 13.1% N, the detonation speed is 6500 m / s at a density. 1.3 g / cm3.

                  at what water content, as I understand it, H = 20 - 1,3N (the formula of natural hygroscopicity), while?
                  heat of explosion at 4,0 MJ / kg for what degree of nitration and what humidity?

                  Can we say with confidence that pyroxylin NTs 13% N with 18% moisture will have a heat of explosion of about 3,7 MJ / kg against TNT with that of about 4,2 MJ / kg, that is, a ratio of about 0,9?

                  the density of the equipment is 2% pyroxylin 1,15-1,25, which means that with the addition of water up to about 18% it will be up to 1,4, that is, the heat of explosion will be about 0,75 of TNT in terms of an equal volume?

                  and shimosa, I understand correctly that it has 5,3 MJ at a density of 1,75?
        2. rytik32
          18 August 2020 14: 26 New
          +4
          For the next article, I pulled data from various sources into such a table. Unfortunately, the data differs in different sources, in these cases I indicate the range of values.

          Special thanks to you for your help!
          1. Andrey Shmelev
            Andrey Shmelev 18 August 2020 19: 11 New
            0
            I don't really agree with the numbers
            1. rytik32
              18 August 2020 21: 12 New
              0
              what and where to fix?
              1. Andrey Shmelev
                Andrey Shmelev 18 August 2020 21: 15 New
                0
                I had a question above:

                Can we say with confidence that pyroxylin NTs 13% N with 18% moisture will have a heat of explosion of about 3,7 MJ / kg against TNT with that of about 4,2 MJ / kg, that is, a ratio of about 0,9?
                the density of the equipment is 2% pyroxylin 1,15-1,25, which means that with the addition of water up to about 18% it will be up to 1,4, that is, the heat of explosion will be about 0,75 of TNT in terms of an equal volume?
                and shimosa, I understand correctly that it has 5,3 MJ at a density of 1,75?


                and below question:

                Design characteristics for different densities:
                Indicator At a density of 1,76 g / cm³ / 1,00 g / cm³
                Detonation velocity, m / s 7680/5545
                Detonation pressure, kbar 265/88
                Heat of explosion, kcal / g 1,27 / 1,02
                Explosion products volume, cm³ / g 0,423 / 0,714
                Detonation velocity depends on density:
                Density, g / cm³ Detonation velocity, m / s
                0,97-4965
                1,32-6190
                1,41-6510
                1,62-7200
                1,70-7480



                I'm not an expert to rule, but it's worth talking, IMHO
                1. rytik32
                  18 August 2020 21: 25 New
                  +1
                  I understand your question. As far as I know, the pyroxylin in our shells had a density of 1,27.
                  Further, from the addition of moisture, the density almost does not increase, the density increases from pressing. 30% humidity does not mean that there is 1 g of water in 300 kg of pyroxylin. There will be 30-50 grams of water)))
                  1. Andrey Shmelev
                    Andrey Shmelev 18 August 2020 21: 49 New
                    0
                    Further, from the addition of moisture, the density almost does not increase

                    I do not agree here, since either the density increases proportionally, or the volume increases proportionally, but since the volume is constant and limited by the cavity of the projectile, the density increases proportionally

                    As far as I know, the pyroxylin in our shells had a density of 1,27.

                    let's say
                    18% water and a density of 1,27 correspond to a density of 1,105 for 3% pyroxylin of natural moisture, this is slightly less than my statement, but quite realistic

                    There will be 30-50 grams of water)))

                    I did not understand this thought at all, I'm sorry
                  2. Saxahorse
                    Saxahorse 18 August 2020 22: 20 New
                    0
                    By the way, as far as I remember, the decrease in the heat of the explosion should be compensated by the increase in the detonation velocity. By releasing energy in less time.

                    But there is a feeling that the discussion goes a little to one side. As I understand it, no one argues that these three explosives are quite close in power.
                    1. Andrey Shmelev
                      Andrey Shmelev 19 August 2020 00: 04 New
                      0
                      no one disputes that these three explosives are quite close in power


                      I'm not sure about this, but it's too early to say otherwise

                      theoretically, one can imagine that per unit of VOLUME pyroxylin is in fact only 0,75 TNT in power, and melenite up to 1,40 TNT can be crammed by power
          2. rytik32
            18 August 2020 22: 50 New
            +1
            Found a mistake in the explosiveness of black powder
            Here's the data from Horst:

            And I got the volume of emitted gases - this is another parameter
      2. Andrey Shmelev
        Andrey Shmelev 17 August 2020 21: 33 New
        0
        small clarification: TNT equivalent is taken in kilograms or cubic decimeters? ;) since the density of the equipment with the same picric acid can differ very much
        1. Saxahorse
          Saxahorse 17 August 2020 22: 21 New
          0
          Usually compared by weight. For the power depends on the detonation velocity and that is related to the density. By the way, the density of all three is approximately the same: 1.55 / 1.65 / 1.75 g / cm3. We are talking about a chemically pure substance, of course, but the packaging is different. Melinite and pyrokislin, for example, were pressed.
          1. Andrey Shmelev
            Andrey Shmelev 17 August 2020 22: 39 New
            0
            Usually compared by weight.


            But I understand correctly that the density of the equipment with pyroxylin is about 1,2?

            while for TNT 1,6, and for melenite from 0,95 to 1,75?
            1. Saxahorse
              Saxahorse 17 August 2020 22: 53 New
              0
              Quote: Andrey Shmelev
              But I understand correctly that the density of the equipment with pyroxylin is about 1,2?

              I will not tell you about pyroxylin as a keepsake. In theory, pressed, moist pyroxylin should be similar in packaging to pressed melinite. But 0,95-1,2 is similar to the gravimetric density of the bulk material. Gunpowder for example.
              1. Andrey Shmelev
                Andrey Shmelev 17 August 2020 23: 52 New
                0
                for some reason, pyroxylin is described with a density of 1,12-1,25, for example, here:
                http://samlib.ru/t/tonina_o_i/te_piroksilin.shtml
                I can't find anything about its density standards in reference books, for example, in Horst this is not
                1. rytik32
                  18 August 2020 00: 52 New
                  +2
                  all correctly indicate that pyroxylin has a lower density than melinite
                  1. Saxahorse
                    Saxahorse 18 August 2020 22: 43 New
                    0
                    Quote: rytik32
                    all correctly indicate that pyroxylin has a lower density than melinite

                    Less, but how much? 1.25 g / cm3 is dry 2.5% and wet then how much?

                    Melinite is also different, cast 1.58-1.61 and pressed 1.63-1.74 g / cm3 depending on pressure.
                2. Saxahorse
                  Saxahorse 18 August 2020 22: 36 New
                  0
                  The same article indicates that 1.12-1.25 with a moisture content of 2-2.5%. It is essentially dry pyroxylin. But even lower they remind that the shells need a moisture content of 10-25% and in addition they are pressed. Those. wet and pressed, the density should still be higher.
                  1. Andrey Shmelev
                    Andrey Shmelev 18 August 2020 23: 46 New
                    0
                    1.12-1.25 at 2-2.5% humidity


                    and how long is it pressed?
                    1. Saxahorse
                      Saxahorse 19 August 2020 23: 42 New
                      0
                      But it is not clear. In theory, the stronger the better, but there are also limitations for security reasons. But logically, the "wet and pressed" density should be somewhat higher than 1.25
                      1. Andrey Shmelev
                        Andrey Shmelev 20 August 2020 06: 48 New
                        0
                        so it turned out that up to about 1,4
  • Alexandra
    Alexandra 15 August 2020 02: 37 New
    +1
    Quote: Comrade
    Here is a fragment of the plating of the battleship "Mikasa", which Nebogatov chose to "overlook".


    And this is how, by the time of the RYAV, an American 12 "armor-piercing projectile equipped with a blasting explosive maximit exploded:

    7000 shards
    1. Comrade
      Comrade 15 August 2020 04: 14 New
      +4
      Quote: AlexanderA
      And this is how, by the time of the RYAV, an American 12 "armor-piercing projectile equipped with a blasting explosive with a maximum of 7000 fragments exploded.

      The casket just opens. The weight of the warhead of such an armor-piercing projectile is 31,75 kg against 19,3 kg from the armor-piercing English, used by the Japanese in the Russian-Japanese.
      The heavier the charge, the thinner the shell walls. The thinner the walls of the projectile, the higher quality the steel should be. The more expensive the steel, the more expensive the shell.
      This also explains the fact that these shells did not go into mass production. The US Navy preferred to buy 12 "shells from the British at the beginning of the last century. Theirs cost so much that it was cheaper to carry them from overseas.
      If I am not mistaken, the projectile shown in the photograph was tested in 1901.
      1. Alexandra
        Alexandra 15 August 2020 08: 37 New
        +1
        Quote: Comrade
        The American Navy preferred to buy 12 "shells at the beginning of the last century from the British. Theirs cost so much that it was cheaper to carry from overseas. If I am not mistaken, the shell shown in the photograph was tested in 1901.


        "Picatinny: The First Century" by Patrick J. Owens

        https://books.google.ru/books?id=ectfmfLmCJMC&pg=PA23&lpg=PA23#v=onepage&q&f=false

        Page 23-25
        1. Saxahorse
          Saxahorse 15 August 2020 21: 27 New
          +2
          Once I came across a plate where the weight and percentage of fragments of a 6 "projectile were compared, depending on the loaded explosive. The worst result was expected for melinite, more than 60% of the weight of the shell loaded with melinite turned into metal dust. This does not mean that there were no large fragments at all. , but a projectile equipped with TNT or pyrokisline has ten times more large fragments, and most (> 80%) of the shell of the projectile is used to form serious fragments with significant kinetic energy.
          1. rytik32
            17 August 2020 01: 26 New
            +2
            This sign? 64% in dust)))
            1. Andrey Shmelev
              Andrey Shmelev 17 August 2020 21: 42 New
              -1
              64% in dust)))


              under what conditions, for example:

              Design characteristics for different densities:
              Indicator At a density of 1,76 g / cm³ / 1,00 g / cm³
              Detonation velocity, m / s 7680/5545
              Detonation pressure, kbar 265/88
              Heat of explosion, kcal / g 1,27 / 1,02
              Explosion products volume, cm³ / g 0,423 / 0,714
              Detonation velocity depends on density:
              Density, g / cm³ Detonation velocity, m / s
              0,97 - 4965
              1,32 - 6190
              1,41 - 6510
              1,62 - 7200
              1,70 - 7480
            2. Saxahorse
              Saxahorse 17 August 2020 22: 27 New
              0
              She is the most! Thank!
              1. Andrey Shmelev
                Andrey Shmelev 17 August 2020 23: 28 New
                -1
                what is dust? - fraction of ten? so then it won't seem a little
  • swzero
    swzero 15 August 2020 12: 29 New
    +1
    Japanese landmines, without even penetrating armor, quite successfully destroyed / damaged suo, guns and personnel, which led to a significant decrease in firepower. By the end of the battle, the ships could not really return fire. The Japanese, on the other hand, retained the ability to conduct effective fire throughout the battle, up to the use of ammunition. As a result, the superiority in artillery increased even more, becoming completely deplorable. Even though our ships did not receive fatal damage from fire, they lost their combat effectiveness, turning in fact into targets, which they then achieved with mines or concentrated fire.
  • Alexandra
    Alexandra 16 August 2020 01: 53 New
    0
    Quote: Saxahorse
    Once I came across a plate where the weight and percentage of fragments of a 6 "projectile were compared, depending on the loaded explosive. The worst result was expected for melinitis, more than 60%


    The outlook on what counts as a lethal shard has changed significantly over 100 years. What is a "large shard"? What are the requirements for it? In the photo above there are 7 thousand fragments of an American 12 "armor-piercing (actually semi-armor-piercing) projectile equipped with maximite (90% trinitrophenol + phlegmatizer). Many of them are large. The speed of the fragments is estimated to be up to 3000 fps. And what was the speed of the fragments in the Russian 12 "high-explosive (in fact, semi-armor-piercing) projectile equipped with smokeless powder?"

    What can I note? Armor-piercing shells have long ceased to be equipped with black or smokeless gunpowder, from the weak armor-piercing action of shells with such an explosive charge. Separate large fragments of a modern 152-155 mm HE shell with such a coefficient of explosive filling that even the Japanese in the years of the RYA could only dream of, are able to penetrate modern 25 mm homogeneous bulletproof armor.

    STANAG 4569 armor protection level 1 - protection of 5,56 mm and 7,62 mm ordinary bullets from 10 meters and from large fragments of 155 mm HE shells at a distance of 100 mm, level 2 - protection against 7,62x39 mm armor-piercing bullets and large fragments 155 mm shells at a distance of 80 meters, level 3 - protection against 7,62x51 mm armor-piercing bullets and large fragments of 155 mm shells at a distance of 60 meters, level 4 - protection against 14,5x114 mm armor-piercing bullets (from 200 meters) and 155 mm fragments shells from 25 meters. Something tells me that at the time of the RYAV, steel was used on sea armor-piercing projectiles, according to its characteristics, no worse than today it is 152-155 mm gross high-explosive fragmentation projectiles.
    1. Saxahorse
      Saxahorse 16 August 2020 23: 47 New
      -1
      Quote: AlexanderA
      Something tells me that at the time of the RYAV, steel was used on sea armor-piercing projectiles, according to its characteristics, no worse than today it is 152-155 mm gross high-explosive fragmentation projectiles.

      Specifically, the Russian shells were much worse and they wrote about this above, in the comments. And the Japanese steel of that time did not shine with quality. However, the size of the fragments is more dependent on explosives. Shimoza had a high explosiveness for a combat explosive.
      1. rytik32
        17 August 2020 09: 35 New
        +2
        Quote: Saxahorse
        However, the size of the fragments is more dependent on explosives. Shimoza had a high explosiveness for a combat explosive.

        I totally agree.
        And the plate above confirms this.
        If 2/3 of the metal turns into dust, then this can in no way be called effective formation of fragments))) And after all, the explosion energy is spent on crushing the shell of the projectile!
        1. Alexandra
          Alexandra 21 August 2020 00: 26 New
          +2
          The question is what kind of fragments they "could not collect". If the fractions are 1-10 grams, then today it is this fraction that is considered optimal for action on non-armored vehicles.

          http://www.baumanpress.ru/books/663/663.pdf
          Стр. 18
          "The specialized anti-personnel missile defense systems for the destruction of unprotected and weakly protected manpower (conditional PE mass range 0,1 ... 1 g), anti-vehicle to destroy unarmored vehicles (1 ... 10 g) and anti-armored to defeat lightly armored targets with a steel equivalent of up to 20 mm (10 ... 100 g). "
          Стр. 14
          "Work on equipping high-explosive grenades with melinite, begun by S.V. Panpushko in the early 1890s and interrupted due to his death during testing, allowed the famous Russian artilleryman
          IN AND. Rdultovsky in 1904 to develop the first sample of a fragmentation projectile with a high explosive - a three-inch melinite grenade of the 1904 sample. Rdultovsky, gave about 350 lethal fragments weighing 0,5 ... 30 gflying away at a speed of 600 m / s "
  • Alexandra
    Alexandra 17 August 2020 22: 53 New
    +1
    Quote: Saxahorse
    Black powder detonates perfectly.


    "In terms of its explosive and deflagration properties, black powder is strikingly different from modern propellants and compositions based on ammonium nitrate or perchlorate. Possessing good flammability, black powder is able to maintain stable combustion at high speeds in a wide variety of casings, be it strong steel casings or thin-walled tubes made of plastic, while combustion does not turn into detonation.It is very difficult to cause detonation of black powder in any other way, even using a powerful intermediate detonator ... Even in long durable pipes, the combustion wave velocity, reaching a level of 400-440 m / s, no longer increases. "
  • Alexandra
    Alexandra 18 August 2020 00: 21 New
    +1
    Quote: Saxahorse
    Specifically, Russian shells were much worse and they wrote about this above, in the comments.

    1. Saxahorse
      Saxahorse 18 August 2020 22: 49 New
      -1
      Well, yes, what they ordered, as always cheaper, they got it. However, the small charge in the Russian shells was due to the poor quality of the steel. And they could have done better, but decided that it was expensive. In modern shells, the quality of steel is no longer saved so frankly. Especially in the states.
      1. Alexandra
        Alexandra 20 August 2020 18: 49 New
        +1
        There obviously the quality of the steel improved over time, as did the purity of the aluminum in the firing pin of the brink fuse.

        http://istmat.info/node/24974

        "The production of shells in our country can be done well, because in the former test it turned out that our shells are 40% better than the English ones from the Hatfield plant, and in comparison with the German shells, the shells of the Obukhov plant without tips turned out to be better, and with tips no worse. only that, repeats Lieutenant General Krotkov, there are few of them. " November 1903, XNUMX

        And the drawings of the shells, as they appeared in the early 1890s, were made on them until the very end of the RYAV. Shells are corny outdated. Those high-explosive that were supposed to contain more than 7% of explosives from the mass of the projectile, at the Obukhov plant, in the 1903 edition book, they promised to start producing. But never.
  • Alexandra
    Alexandra 18 August 2020 00: 36 New
    +1
    Quote: Saxahorse
    Shimoza had a high explosiveness for a combat explosive.


    TNT has a blasting rate that is unsatisfactory for a combat explosive. A-IX-2 is superior to TNT in this characteristic.

    "... The main domestic shell steel S-60, in chemical composition corresponding to structural steel st.60, but having extended limits for phosphorus and sulfur, has unsatisfactory fragmentation characteristics ... according to US Pat. No. 2025646 RF it follows that the combination of C- 60 / TNT falls into the area of ​​unsatisfactory fragmentation (class IV) ("Explosion physics". Vol. 2, third edition, revised. / Edited by L.P. Orlenko. M .: Fizmatlit, 2004, p. 151, fig. .16.59), and the main standard combination C-60 / A-IX-2 (A-IX-2 - aluminized RDX) is located near the lower limits of satisfactory crushing (class III). The relative masses of the coarse fraction m> 4 g (for TNT and A-IX-2, respectively 0,59 and 0,47) ... "
  • misti1973
    misti1973 18 August 2020 18: 37 New
    +1
    I highly recommend reading Kostenko's book "On the Orel in Tsushima". Then you will get a better understanding of what happened there and what the real reasons are. There are many of them.
    1. Andrey Shmelev
      Andrey Shmelev 19 August 2020 00: 09 New
      -1
      Kostenko "On the Eagle in Tsushima"


      Is this a Ferrari?
      - "Bentley".
      -I've never heard.
      (C)
  • Alexandra
    Alexandra 20 August 2020 18: 35 New
    0
    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
    Can we say with confidence that pyroxylin NTs 13% N with 18% moisture will have a heat of explosion of about 3,7 MJ / kg against TNT with that of about 4,2 MJ / kg, that is, a ratio of about 0,9?

    the density of the equipment is 2% pyroxylin 1,15-1,25, which means that with the addition of water up to about 18% it will be up to 1,4, that is, the heat of explosion will be about 0,75 of TNT in terms of an equal volume?


    By the warmth of the explosion, I suppose we can. Let's figure out the density of loading and the speed of detonation (blasting).

    Stettbacher A. Gunpowder and explosives - M .: Chemical literature, 1936
    http://pirochem.net/books/azgotov-prim-vv/shtetbaher-a/1936/files/porohaivzrivvesh1936.djvu
    "The detonation velocity depends to a large extent on the density, as well as on the moisture content, which increases the detonation velocity (table on page 105). The technically achievable highest detonation velocity of pyroxylin is about 6900 m / s. Wet pyroxylin detonates at a content of 20 percent or more water; however, the energy effect is accordingly reduced.
    Despite the high "crystalline" density of pyroxylin fibers, pressing can practically achieve a density of no higher than 1,3. Such a low loading density is the main reason that such a powerful explosive as pyroxylin had to give way when firing torpedoes and mines or large-caliber shells (last time in Russia at the beginning of the World War) to less powerful, but denser aromatic nitro compounds. meltable... Another possibility - to transform pyroxylin by mixing with nitroglycerin into an explosive of great strength and density - turned out to be hopeless from the very beginning, because all highly swelling mixtures, as well as military explosive jelly, completely lose their ability to detonate after a short time. "


    and shimosa, I understand correctly that it has 5,3 MJ at a density of 1,75?


    The charges were cast, with a density of ~ 1,6 g / cm3 (1,58-1,63 g / cm3). The detonation velocity according to different sources is 7220-7350 m / s (with a density of 1,6 g / cm3). Heat of explosion 4,02-4.40 MJ / kg.
  • Andrey sh
    Andrey sh 7 September 2020 01: 52 New
    0
    And the main caliber of the Russian ships did not have time to transfer to pyroxylin at all. So he was on gunpowder. And the firing distance at Tsushima was on average higher than during the battles of 1904. So other shells were used in the yellow sea, the main caliber was noted to a minimum ... And I heard this version, along with damp pyroxylin on a long march.