Military Review

"Rubicon" of underwater confrontation. Successes and problems of the MGK-400 hydroacoustic complex

26

Prologue. Late 80s, Northwest Pacific. Kuril straits region



Of memoriesofficer of the anti-submarine warfare department of Kamchatka flotilla on the actions of diesel submarines (diesel-electric submarines) of the project 877 of the Kamchatka flotilla on the Kuril border (the style is slightly changed):

... American boats became frequent guests in the Sea of ​​Okhotsk, so in 1986 it was decided to create the Kuril-Kamchatka anti-submarine line and attract submarines, project 877, Aviation...

The Rubicon hydroacoustic complex made it possible to detect Los Angeles-class submarines in the direction-finding mode at a distance of up to 80 cab. Sometimes there were detections in 200 cabins, but this was when its course was more than 10 knots. This is most typical during the passage of American boats through the strait zones of the Kuril border. The complexity and strength of the currents in the straits forced them to have a speed of 10 knots and above. Well, we naturally used it.

Objective: to close the straits of Kruzenshtern, Bussol and the Fourth Kuril straits. US boats could pass through them without violating the territorial waters of the USSR. Although I had information that sometimes they slipped through both the First Kuril and Severin Strait.




Kuril straits in the northern and central parts of the archipelago

In March 1988, a B-404 in the Fries Strait, thanks to its classy acoustics, detects a foreign boat at a long range and hits it with an active GAS transmission. The American performs a 180-degree lapel, due to the higher speed it comes off.

Upon arrival from the service, we torture the commander.

- Listen, what are they, these Americans, do you give a damn about your soup? With your Chapaev's antics, you have outdone all the raspberries for us. To hand over to the commander of the flotilla for experiments?

- Do not…

Well, then it started: B-405 in October 1988, B-439 in February 1988, B-404 in April 1989, and more and more.

Our gallant commanders, with the stubbornness of maniacs, continued to distribute sonar shells to all American boats that met on the way.

A quarter of a century before. Creation of SJSC "Rubicon"


In 1965, the Central Research Institute "Morfizpribor" completed the development of the MGK-300 "Rubicon" hydroacoustic complex (SAC) (for nuclear submarines of projects 661 and 671). At the same time, the Vodtranspribor plant was finishing the creation of the Kerch State Joint Stock Company for nuclear submarines, into which the huge Rubin antenna could not fit. Against this background, the Central Research Institute "Morfizpribor" (and, as will be shown below, with the active interest of the CDB "Rubin"), the idea of ​​creating a "reduced" "Rubin" with widespread use of the already created technical groundwork, incl. for use on diesel-electric submarines. Despite the ambiguous attitude to this initiative, the customer (Navy) opened the topic of creating a new SAC. Shelekhov S.M. was appointed the chief designer of the new SJSC, which received the name "Rubicon".

"Rubicon" of underwater confrontation. Successes and problems of the MGK-400 hydroacoustic complex

CM. Shelekhov

In view of the very strict requirements for weight and size characteristics and energy consumption (taking into account the "sight" for the installation of the first experimental SJSC on the Rubin Central Design Bureau, which is being modernized at that time, project 641B), the question of the fundamental appearance of the SJSC and technical solutions that ensured the maximum possible range target detection. The main way to achieve this at that time was considered the largest main antenna for noise direction finding.

Mikhailov Yu.A., First Deputy Chief Designer of the State Aviation Committee, recalled:

Coordination of the tactical and technical assignment (TTZ) was difficult. Customers put forward requirements that sometimes led away from the main goal, and their feasibility and usefulness were not always obvious. So, the requirement to include mine detecting equipment in the complex could torpedo the whole idea, since the problem of building well-functioning mine detectors at that time was not solved. The requirement to install onboard antennas did not make sense at all due to the high level of interference in the installation area. Only the eighth (!) Version of the TTZ was agreed and approved, when the development was already in full swing.


Thus, the industry has successfully “put the squeeze on” the fleet according to its vision of the issue, work on which has been in full swing for about a year.

The main idea of ​​the Rubicon concept was to reduce the hardware part of the complex as much as possible (from 55 equivalent racks to 7,5) while preserving the largest (according to the possibilities of installation on carriers) main antenna of the SAC (placed on the carrier in a place with minimal interference). Taking into account the restrictions on installation on the 641B project, the main antenna of the Rubicon was reduced by 1,5 times from "Ruby" to "truncated conical", with diameters of 4 and 3,5 m and a height of 2,4 m.


The main antenna of the SJSC "Rubicon" with a robust capsule (without a roof) and devices of the "capsule group")

Today it is clear that the rejection of the onboard antenna for the GAK version for diesel-electric submarines was a big mistake. The problem of interference was acute for noisy nuclear submarines, but on diesel-electric submarines (with little interference), the implementation of an effective on-board antenna was possible and expedient already in those years.

In conditions of massive hydroacoustic counteraction (during tracking and in battle), only active paths of analog SACs provided classification and generation of target data. However, with mine detection and sonar, everything was much more complicated ...

The fact that sonar can detect mines, and we knew abroad as early as the mid-40s. However, the problem was in the conditions and significantly increased requirements (of the customer) ... But with the implementation of the latter, during the 50s - early 60s, we had a breakdown after a breakdown (and with scandalous details such as dismissal and transfer to another organization of key specialists) ...

For example, the first sonar station (SRS) "Plutonium", developed with the task of mine detection, turned out to be of little use for this task. At the same time, it cannot be said that the Plutonium RTU was bad. For example, its real operating range on the 613 project in the Baltic reached 25 cab., And this is taking into account the fact that its "American competitor" SQS-4 had a close range (less than 30 cab.), While the operating frequency of the SQS-4 was twice as low (7 kHz instead of 15 for "Plutonium"). The surface version of "Plutonium" - GLS "Tamir-11", incl. in the course of long-term tracking of submarines of a potential enemy, actively using hydroacoustic countermeasures (SGPD). Cm.: Techniques for evading a nuclear submarine from ships of a search and strike group (PUG) (based on the experience of pursuing a foreign boat by the ships of the 114th brigade of the OVR ships of the Kamchatka military flotilla in 1964).

Mentioned in the article “At the forefront of underwater confrontation: submarine hydroacoustics. From the beginning of the Cold War to the 70s " the mine detection tract of the SJSC "Kerch", which perfectly "saw" not only submarines, but even torpedoes (!), failed tests for its main purpose (despite the fact that its initial technical messages were correct and later on this basis it was developed exclusively successful GAS mine detection "Harp").

The first GAS mine detecting, where the requirements of the Navy were met, was GAS "Olen". Its chief designer M.Sh. Shtremt (previously the developer of the extremely successful sound direction-finding GAS "Phoenix") carried out a large amount of experimental research in order to test real working and effective solutions at sea at the initial stages of development. This has become a key success factor. Subsequently, on the technical basis of the GAS "Olen", a more compact GAS mine detecting "Lan" was created, which became the first mass and effective GAS mine detecting for minesweepers.

For submarines, the first successful mine detector was the "Radian", which also turned out to be an extremely successful GAS for "duels" with enemy submarines. For the first time he showed himself in this way back in 1968, most likely, on the K-38 under the command of the future Vice-Admiral E.D. Chernov. The article “At the forefront of underwater confrontation: submarine hydroacoustics. From the beginning of the Cold War to the 70s " there is a mistake in the caption to the photo of the Rubin enclosure. The main antenna of the "Rubin" was reversible (it worked both in noise direction finding and in sonar), and under it was placed a large antenna of the GAS mine detection "Radian".


Large antenna of the GAS mine detection "Radian" under the main cylindrical antenna of the SJSC "Rubin"

However, these high characteristics and capabilities required significant hardware costs and the use of a very large antenna. Taking into account the fact that most of the mine detection topics were failed, a number of leading specialists left Morfizpribor, and Radian had just begun to show results, the Rubicon development managers pushed the customer to exclude the mine detection path from the SJSC.

It turned out differently with sonar. The navy demanded that this channel be provided with a long range (including for targeting missile arms). Shelekhov initially put the question bluntly: the idea of ​​a new SAC can be realized only on fixed antennas. Accordingly, "Rubicon" received a separate radiating antenna of the "distance measurement" (sonar) path with one stationary narrow (about 30 degrees strictly along the nose) directional pattern.


Fencing of retractable devices diesel-electric submarines of project 877 with the fairing removed and and the antenna tract ID SJSC "Rubicon"

For missile submarines of the 670M project, the ID tract was supplemented by two onboard radiating antennas with a very narrow beam pattern along the traverse, which turned out to be practically useless.

Features and composition of SJSC "Rubicon":

The noise control path (SHP) had three identical channels with all-round viewing modes (in one of the three frequency ranges) or automatic target tracking (2 ASTs are possible simultaneously while maintaining a circular view with one channel in one (selected) frequency range.

To increase the detection range of low-noise targets, it was possible to work with the accumulation of signals (capacitive storage in the corresponding frequency ranges). However, the greatest detection range was provided not by the standard indicator of the complex, but by the recorder (the SAC pen recorder on paper tape).

The Rubicon did not have the standard equipment for narrow-band (spectral) analysis, but the possibility of connecting it existed and was actively used later.

The distance measurement path (ID) had a separate emitting antenna; echo signals were received at the main antenna of the complex. Determination of the distance and the radial component of the target speed was provided.

The hydroacoustic signal detection path (OGS) had 4 separate frequency ranges with the ability to determine the frequency and direction to the detected signal. It should be noted that the accuracy of direction finding in the OGS was much worse than in the SHP (the use of torpedo weapons according to the OGS data was out of the question), and in the 4 frequency range (torpedo detection) only the quadrant was determined.

The communication path provided the modes of code (long-distance) communication, high- and low-frequency telegraphy and telephony.

SAC really turned out to be compact, easy to study and use. The large antenna provided a good potential of the complex and decent detection ranges (especially on diesel submarines of Project 877). Created in 1966-1973. SJSC still serves in the Russian Navy (diesel-electric submarines of project 877 and RPL SN "Ryazan") and a number of other countries, and practically unchanged.

Work on the "Rubicon" proceeded at a high pace, the production of a prototype began 17 months before the defense of the technical design (usual stages of development: preliminary design, technical design, development of working design documentation, production of a prototype, preliminary tests ("tests of the chief designer") , state tests). In 1970-1971. the stand was simultaneously testing two prototypes at once (for 641B and 670M projects). State tests "Rubicon" successfully passed in 1973, and by the end of the same year, two serial complexes were commissioned. The Rubicon was put into service in 1976 under the designation MGK-400.

The first carrier: diesel-electric submarines of project 641B


The development of a project for the modernization of the excellent ocean diesel-electric submarine of project 641 began at TsKB-18 in 1964, i.e. even earlier than the beginning of the development of "Rubicon". The key issue of this modernization was the new hydroacoustics, and it was for the 641B project that the Rubicon State Joint-Stock Company was optimized (primarily for the main antenna)


"Powerful" lower jaw "- baffle of the main antenna of SJSC" Rubicon "diesel-electric submarines of project 641B

The installation of the SJSC "Rubicon" dramatically increased the capabilities of diesel-electric submarines to detect low-noise targets, however, when the enemy used low-frequency SGPD, our diesel-electric submarine, which did not have a mine detection HAS, became practically "blind". But there was no place for an additional antenna for an effective high-frequency GAS on the 641B project, the dimensions of the main antenna of the "Rubicon" became the limiting ones even for large diesel-electric submarines. Because There was no SAC of a smaller dimension, and after 10-15 years this led to the "extinction" in the USSR Navy of the subclass of medium-sized diesel-electric submarines.

On nuclear ships


The first nuclear-powered ship to receive the Rubicon was the 670M project (developed by the Lazurit Design Bureau, the launch vehicle - Malakhit anti-ship missiles).


Placement of antennas of SJSC "Kerch" on project 670 (left) and SJSC "Rubikon" on project 670M (right)

For nuclear submarines, the problem was that the Rubicon was “insufficient”. And in terms of size, potential, and detection range, it was possible to have much more effective antennas. The development of such a complex was in full swing at the Research Institute "Morfizpribor", and the SJSC "Skat" had two modifications: small ("Skat-M") and large ("Skat-KS"). For nuclear submarines, the Skata-M installation was definitely preferable to the Rubicon. However, it turned out that the "Rubicon", "too large" for diesel-electric submarines, but "too small" for nuclear submarines, in the 70s "crossed the road" to the much more effective "Skat-M".

In addition to the 670M project, the Rubicon SJSC was installed on various ships of the 667 projects (as a regular SJC - on the 667BDR project, on others - during repairs and upgrades). On nuclear-powered ships of the 1st generation, "Rubicon" was massively installed (at the plant) on the 675 project and on one submarine of the 627A project (K-42).


Huge protruding radome of the antenna of the SJSC "Rubicon" K-42 (project 627A)

"Information" about the installation of "Rubicon" on multipurpose nuclear-powered ships of project 671, circulating "in the domestic" underwater literature "does not correspond to reality. Nobody was going to give up the huge main antenna of "Rubin" on 671 projects. The only exception is K-323, upgraded according to Project 671K with the installation of the Granat cruise missile complex. There was no other option for freeing up space and displacement to accommodate its firing system, except for replacing the Rubin with the Rubicon.

Already in the 80s it became clear that the installation of the Rubicon SJSC on the second generation nuclear-powered ships was a mistake, the SJSC was very harshly criticized in the Navy due to its insufficient capabilities and the availability of a real (and much more effective) alternative in the form of the Skata-M ...

"Main carrier": project 877


The main carrier of the "Rubicon" was the diesel-electric submarine of project 877, actually built "around" and "from" its large main antenna. At the same time, a set of measures was successfully implemented to de-noise the carrier and reduce the interference of the SAC.


Main antenna of SJSC "Rubicon" on diesel-electric submarines of project 636

Taking into account the very low noise level of diesel-electric submarines of project 877, the large potential of the antenna ensured anticipation in detection in most tactical situations with diesel-electric submarines of other countries, even those that had more modern digital SAC (for example, with the German project 209/1500 of the Indian Navy). In the book "Jump of a Whale" (about the creation of the BIUS "Knot"), an eyewitness account is given:

... witnessed the return of the Sindhugosh submarine from the campaign, in which a training encounter with the submarine of the 209th project took place, I guess it was just to assess their capabilities. It was in the waters of the Arabian Sea. Our lieutenant, a Hindu serving the "Knot", after this battle, in joyful excitement, with a gleam in his eyes, told me: "They did not even notice us and were sunk."



Diesel-electric submarines of project 209 with a much smaller main antenna SAC

It is worth dwelling separately on the thesis “size is of decisive importance” from the article by Yu.N. Kormilitsin, general designer of the Rubin Central Design Bureau. and vice-admiral M.K. Barskov, deputy head of the Navy for armaments and shipbuilding. ("Marine Collection" No. 6, 1999).


It is optimistic about a 6-fold lead in the detection range, primarily due to the large antenna. In reality, everything, to put it mildly, is somewhat different.


Source: http://www.oceanpribor.ru

From this graph (developed by SJSC - TsNII "Morfizpribor") it can be seen that SJSC "Rubikon" has 2,5 times more potential than SJSC "Rubin" (with a 1,5 times larger main antenna). Moreover, the digital SJC "Skat-3" has 2 times more potential than the analog "Skat-KS" (with similar sizes of the main antennas). Those. size certainly matters, but signal processing is just as important.

Accordingly, the very "technique" for comparing submarines in antenna size is highly controversial in terms of reliability.

On the 877 project, a new GAS mine detection "Arfa-M" was installed. Like Radian, it was often used as a GAS for lighting and classification. The operator of the "Uzel" BIUS recalls about firing remote-controlled (TU) torpedoes at low-noise diesel-electric submarines:

I did it personally, pressed the buttons of the TU with my gnarled fingers 3 times in my life. Moreover, twice "Rubicon" (two attacks in a row) did not see the target literally at point-blank range and went on the attack on the "Harp" exclusively. Another time they went out on the "Rubicon", but the "Harp" was turned on ... “Pli” sounded only when we were convinced of the accuracy of the data with the help of “Harp”.

This is a vivid example of how the Varshavyanka would have to fight in a real battle: the ShP tract is completely suppressed by interference and hears nothing, you can only count on the Arfa (working sector 90 degrees in the nose) and the ID tract (30 degrees in the nose) ...

"Warsaw" against "moose" and "rods"


The memories mentioned at the beginning of the article are interesting primarily because they are the view of an anti-submarine officer of a higher command body (Kamchatka flotilla) with a comprehensive and retrospective analysis of the use of Project 877 diesel-electric submarines with the Rubicon SJSC (using spectral analysis equipment).

The noise of the boat at 5 knots ... is less than on the US Sturgeon boats and comparable to the noise of the Los Angeles at their 6-7 knots. If the "Varshavyanka" was at 2-3 knots, it surpassed the American boats in the detection range by about 30%.

These figures depend on specific ships (years of construction), but are approximately correct. It is especially worth paying attention to the noticeable increase in the noise level of the 877 under the main propulsion motor, as a result of which a reliable lead in detection was achieved only on the economical drive motor (and the speed less than 3 knots).


Diesel-electric submarines of project 877 of the Kamchatka flotilla at the Bechevinka base

We began to draw up schedules for service entry, search speeds, search cycles and battery charging. They converged on "making noise" with diesels charging from the inner side of the islands, masking themselves with the noise of tidal currents. After that, go to the strait for 72 hours in 3-5 knots ... The main effort is on covert tracking, do not unmask yourself ... Objectives: to detect, classify, determine the EDC (elements of target movement). On the air, even SDB (ultra-high-speed communication), do not grind. We have long learned to detect and find this parcel. And if, according to the Americans, their boat is there, then the burst of our package from this area is definitely its detection.

Wait five or six hours, if necessary we will pull the aircraft, it will cover it. Moreover, it is difficult, if not simply impossible, to work in the strait zones with aviation buoys: a decent excitement, quickly blows away by the current.

A very competent solution with an emphasis on the use of aviation and achieving the maximum tracking time (covert!) By it.

Well, "go first." "Varshavyanka" B-404 in February 1986. In the Fourth Kuril Strait, he discovers an underwater target going into the strait. I determined everything, recorded the noises, classified, well, you will follow her and make sure that she slipped into the strait. Not a fig. By actively sending GUS to her lobster. Babakh !!!

That, of course, is shocked, the lapel is 180 degrees. and comes off. After a while, knowing that there is a boat, that she found it, she finds a way to slip somewhere else.

And immediately gives an alert about detection by the fleet.

Well, we didn't know that then. The team in Mongokhto, Tu-142 puts a field of buoys at the exit from the strait. Blowing you with poppy seeds.

Those. departure on call of aviation by. The enemy, realizing that he was discovered, dodged. The reaction of the "operators" and the command was "appropriate":

At the end of the combat service, we drive the boat to Novoye Zavoiko and the whole headquarters fall on it.

- And why did you iron it with acoustics?

- So confirm what exactly the underwater target. Noises are noises, and a mark is a thing!

- So the acoustics confirmed it in passive mode. What do you want, little merry?

“I was simulating a torpedo attack.

- Why did you give the notification immediately? They asked, wait a couple of hours.

- And stealth after my torpedo attack is still down the drain. And in general, do not hang around figs near our islands.

The logic is iron. One violation of the instructions serves to justify the second. Well, okay, the first detection, at long range, I myself did not expect this. Senior comrades brought up the commander a little.

The question was really very good, because the 877 project only had TEST-71M anti-submarine remote-controlled torpedoes with very low performance characteristics, easily removed by the SGPD. Our naval aviation at that time had excellent APR-2 anti-submarine missiles with anti-jamming homing systems, which the US Navy's submarines could not oppose. Those. "Varshavyanki" were good at detecting, but had serious problems with the destruction of submarines, while the aviation was poor with detection, but "lethal" APRs were in service.

... by 1990, covert detections were over. Even attempts to spy on secretly have led nowhere. The primary detection ranges suddenly leveled off. And now it happened that the Americans were the first to discover our super-low-noise "Varshavyanka" ...


Modern modernization


At the end of the 80s, the 877 project was already considered obsolete, and its analogue SJSC "Rubicon" was simply "antique". However, in the new economic situation of the 90s. simple mastered 877 project went very well for export. The question of moral and technical obsolescence of its hydroacoustics has become an edge. As a result, in the late 90s - early 2000s, the Central Research Institute "Morfizpribor" carried out a deep modernization (in fact, the development of a new SJSC) MGK-400EM at a very good technical level.

"Rubicon-M" has become fully digital, the detection range and noise immunity have sharply increased.

Interestingly, the Rubicon-M was viewed as a "modular SJC" with size options ranging from "small sizes" (MG-10M antennas) to a huge SJC for Project 971I. However, the main version was the SAC for the 877 (636) project.


Operator consoles SJSC MGK-400EM


SJSC MGK-400EM

Along with a very good technical level, decent detection ranges, high noise immunity of the Rubicon-M SJC, he also inherited the "birth defects" of the original Rubicon SJC:

- limited sector of the sonar tract (increased to 60 degrees on the nose);

- lack of on-board antennas;

- extremely low accuracy of direction finding of hydroacoustic signals (torpedoes) in the high-frequency range (the parameter of the old "Rubicon" is preserved).

Note: despite the fact that in the public domain there is a significant amount of information on modern domestic developments of on-board antennas, a detailed consideration of this issue publicly is inappropriate. In short: technically everything is ready, you need to immediately implement (including for the modernization of previously built submarines of their SAC).

The problem of using a flexible extended antenna is more complicated. SJSC MGK-400EM has a variant of MGK-400EM-04 with GPBA (and very good). For this reason, the supply of new SACs of the Navy without GPBA causes frank bewilderment. Saving? But this is saving on matches! GPBA dramatically increases the capabilities of diesel-electric submarines, providing not only an increase in detection ranges, classification capabilities due to the use of the infrasonic range, but also constant monitoring of the "blind" for the main antenna of the aft sector (including from a surprise attack by the enemy).

The passivity of the Navy (and Rosoboronexport) in this matter leads to the fact that foreign customers are beginning to install Western GPBA on our Varshavyanka.


Diesel-electric submarines of project 877EKM with non-Russian GPBA


Advertising of GPBA of THALES company on diesel-electric submarines of project 877EKM

Well, the most sore point is the preservation of submarines with the ancient original "Rubicon" in the combat composition of the Navy. Taking into account the fact that back in the mid-80s MGK-400 was not considered a modern SAC, nowadays the naval submarines with it (RPLSN Ryazan and diesel-electric submarines of project 877) have a combat value close to zero. The installation of modern digital processing equipment on the old SACs could have played a role here, however, this was also overlooked by the Navy (this issue, including dramas and comedy (simultaneously) with the prefix "Ritsa", will be discussed in detail in the next article) ... As a result, in 2016, in the Baltic Fleet TV series, we could observe the “highly professional” work of the Varshavyanka acoustics of the Northern Fleet, who “discovered” non-existent “turbines” near the project 20380 corvette on the ancient Rubicon State Joint Stock Company.


A shot from the television series "Baltic Fleet". Acoustic diesel-electric submarine during the search for corvette 20380 "Savvy" (completely diesel) heard turbines

As a matter of fact, this shows well the attitude towards anti-submarine warfare in the Russian Navy, and against this background, the absence of GPBA on the newest diesel-electric submarines of the Navy of project 06363 is no longer surprising.

To be continued ...
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Articles from this series:
At the forefront of the underwater confrontation: submarine hydroacoustics. From the beginning of the cold war to the 70s
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  1. pmkemcity
    pmkemcity 14 August 2020 10: 54 New
    +1
    in the series “Baltic Fleet” they could observe the “highly professional” work of the acoustics of the “Varshavyanka” of the Northern Fleet, who “discovered” the non-existent “turbines” of the corvette of Project 20380 on the ancient SJSC “Rubicon”.

    One blurted out - did not think, rather the scriptwriter wrote, and the second got to the bottom.
    1. timokhin-aa
      14 August 2020 16: 23 New
      +2
      This is actually a controversial issue. How would a screenwriter know such things?
      1. pmkemcity
        pmkemcity 14 August 2020 17: 57 New
        0
        I decided to get to the bottom of it somehow ... I cut the microassembly ...
      2. Alceers
        Alceers 14 August 2020 23: 23 New
        +1
        And this is elementary. .. Current directors and cameramen do not dive into the topic ... It looks like this. The deputy and the videographer come to the bushes and say, well, weaken us like you work. One of the typical training plans will rattle some kind of nonsense, they will film it and leave. And on the eve of the fighter, the first mate with the zgtshnik will intimidate the prey, he did not give any secrets. Then, too, at the navigator or at the calculators. And they can come on another day or to another boat. Then from these pieces they will cut the montage, add from last year's video frames and pofih that they are generally from some kind of corvette. here is the next training ground, or there I serve Russia. So it’s premature to draw at least some conclusions based on film agitations ...
        1. timokhin-aa
          16 August 2020 00: 13 New
          +4
          Answer from M. Klimov:
          Monsieur Alseers, last time (in "At the forefront of the underwater confrontation") YOU were pleased to admit a number of boorish statements, my address. The question is extremely simple (I am not interested in YOUR apologies), do YOU ​​have the courage to say how the "events" mentioned by YOU ended (I mean "Red";))? Or will YOU play a "virgin girl" again?
          What is the strength? IN TRUE! And not the nonsense of YOU and YOUR colleagues, who wrote false "reviews" to the "authorities" on the questions I raised.
          Well, "took place"?
          And many thanks to "VO", who were not afraid to write all this, for a very important role in what happened VERY GOOD for the Navy was played by VO articles, put on the table for VIPs!

          And as for the films "BF", do not talk nonsense, it hurts! The depth gauges in the film are also "turned on by the director"? As well as the data of the screen "fought" with the reports!
          1. Alceers
            Alceers 17 August 2020 10: 11 New
            -2
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            Answer from M. Klimov:
            Monsieur Alseers, last time (in "At the forefront of the underwater confrontation") YOU were pleased to admit a number of boorish statements, my address.

            Klimov accuses someone of rudeness! Nonsense. And for some reason he is constantly in the bath ...

            You know Alexander. I still cannot understand how you interact with this eagle? You seem to be an adequate person, how do you get along with him?
            Despite the fact that I fully share many of the conclusions and opinions of him as a specialist and have a positive attitude towards activities in the field of popularizing and shaping public opinion ... In some places, he certainly messes up due to the separation from reality and the lack of information.
            But ... after a stream of excrement in a personal, I have no desire to communicate with this character, even sympathetically referring to his activities
            1. Fizik M
              Fizik M 17 August 2020 10: 26 New
              +2
              Quote: Alceers
              In some places, of course, he messes up due to the separation from reality and the lack of information.

              Monsieur brehlo, "a disconnect from reality", or rather, the INSIDERAL nonsense was from YOU and YOU to similar individuals in the form of "otmaz" (including in the "organs") about a complete ass with a real combat capability of the submarine forces of the Navy.

              Quote: Alceers
              But ... after a stream of excrement in a PM,

              Monsieur, it will not bother me to do a DETAILED analysis of YOUR nonsense and diarrhea there (and PUNCH YOU "like a kitten")

              So what about Monsieur Alseers, according to "Red"? wink You dushenki Enough to say how it ended? Huh? Or will YOU continue to "fill the diaper"?

              YOU dushenki Enough to say how in the Navy (and the unit in the control body of which YOU are "sitting your pants") are things with "under-ice" shooting?
              And how many modern SGPDs were used during the "combat" (in quotation marks) "training", say, in a year and a half?
              And there is no need to hide behind a "fig leaf" of all the "secrecy", because this figure will be ZERO (several pieces of "Whist", which I POSSIBLY could use, I do not consider modern SGPD (for the reason I mentioned earlier))

              To be continued (and YOUR public SPACKING) follows
              1. Alceers
                Alceers 17 August 2020 10: 49 New
                -2
                Quote: Fizik M
                YOU have enough dushanki to say how in the Navy (and the unit in the control body of which YOU are "sitting your pants") are things with "under-ice" shooting?

                Maxim, I said everything. I will begin to communicate with you only after a public apology for rudeness.
                PS. And on topics that do not provide for criminal liability for their disclosure. And then the State Department with the ANB and the CIA in a crowd is probably already writing awards for you ...
                1. Fizik M
                  Fizik M 17 August 2020 10: 59 New
                  +2
                  Quote: Alceers
                  I will begin to communicate with you only after a public apology for rudeness.

                  Apologies greyhounds and arrogant LIARS like YOU don't interest me from the word at all.
                  But SPORKING - and them and YOU will be.
                  And about the fact that YOU are trying to "make big eyes" and hide behind the "regime", I will say myself:
                  1. NOT A SINGLE SHOT WITH TORPEDS WITH THE INCLUDED CLOSE ON ICE, AS IT WAS NOT, SO IS NOT
                  (below I will specially make a selection of how Alseers was crucified in fables as he and Co. "love the Motherland" (in the false reports of the BP), "develop new tactics" and are engaged in etc. RIPPING THE PANTS)
                  2. LIKE IT WAS NOT, SO AND THERE IS NO ONE, HOW MUCH REAL (CLOSE TO REAL BATTLE CONDITIONS) APPLICATION OF AHPD DURING TORPED SHOOTING!
                  But in the false reports of "Alseerzov and Co" everything is OK.

                  By the way, in the response (according to my "alarm") to the Presidential Administration, under the high ministry of defense signature (a copy of the document was organized by good people), it was stated that "Arctic" torpedo firing JACOBS "were"! Those. "Alseerzy & Co" LIES LIES incl. To the Supreme Commander-in-Chief!
                  Or you him "not to speak upsetting news" also "for regime" reasons?

                  "To be continued"
    2. SovAr238A
      SovAr238A 15 August 2020 18: 05 New
      +1
      Any film must have a consultant. Such bloopers are unacceptable even in soap operas.
    3. K298rtm
      K298rtm 16 August 2020 22: 20 New
      0
      1. If the hydroacoustic operator does not distinguish between knocking and whistling, then this is not a problem in the old GAK, but in the heads of those who taught it, appointed it, etc.
      2. It is possible that the creators of the series saved on consultants.
      1. Fizik M
        Fizik M 17 August 2020 07: 38 New
        +2
        Quote: K298rtm
        If the hydroacoustic operator does not distinguish between knocking and whistling, then this is not a problem in the old GAK, but in the heads of those who taught it, appointed it, etc.

        In general, there was a complete trash with the training of personnel ...
        In fairness, it should be noted that there were positive examples. For example, even in this clumsy film, the corvette commander Elephants looks very positive. And this is really so (he crossed paths with him on the case in some important issues) - an initiative officer who is not indifferent to the issues of real (!) Combat effectiveness.
        Quote: K298rtm
        It is possible that the creators of the series saved on consultants.

        rather, the Ministry of Defense saved on paper on a set of documents for dismissal, for example

        The first mate, having received a 3- for COLREGs, is on watch with a "cheat sheet" in the form of a "Officer's Handbook" !!! belay
        Read more:
        https://otvaga2004.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=1321&p=4#p714552
        After he said to the camera that now he would be replaced by a miner, who would "cheat" as well, but with a flashlight, I lay down with laughter.
        Only now this laugh is very sad ...
  2. Alien From
    Alien From 14 August 2020 11: 35 New
    +1
    Difficult to understand, but very interesting, thanks to the author !!!!
  3. dgonni
    dgonni 14 August 2020 17: 08 New
    +3
    Respect! Here is a really competent article, with real analysis and retrospective. Provides food for the mind. Unlike the articles of some Samsonov and Samokhon, where amateurism is simply rushing from all the cracks!
    There would be more of these on VO! ;)
    1. timokhin-aa
      14 August 2020 18: 06 New
      +4
      Klimov has already written a sequel, let's see how quickly he polishes.
      1. Orkraider
        Orkraider 14 August 2020 22: 54 New
        0
        hi
        Greetings!
        Thank you comrades, although the truth is bitter, if you don't hear it, honey will not appear.
  4. K298rtm
    K298rtm 15 August 2020 00: 00 New
    +5
    1. Thanks to the author for the interesting material.
    2. For its time, "Rubicon" was a really good complex. It was problematic to create a more efficient SAC based on that element base (analog).
    3. In terms of industry, it almost always "squeezed" the Navy (at least in the area of ​​RES). One of the problems (it still hasn't gone anywhere) is the notorious "conflict of interest" (those who coordinated (s) promises of TTZ, after being fired, sit (often, regularly, sometimes) in the management chairs of those same enterprises. ..).
    4. About D obn. The fact that the mark appeared on the recorder earlier (than on the IKO and by ear) is a fact. Just keep in mind that this is a SIGNAL, which became (or not) a PURPOSE only after classification (primary). Therefore, Dobn was recorded in the recorder reports. Personally, I have always been of the opinion that Dobn targets are D classification (you will not be able to shoot at the primary marks on the recorder and even on the indicator).
    5. D obn foreign plan for 80 kbt is great. Only now there is nothing to hit the (877th) with (this is a miscalculation of those who developed the TTZ on the square. They could have included a pair of 81s in the ammunition, only the "Node" could be finalized and data entry).
    6. A couple of words about "Harp" - in fact, it is a GAS for lighting the near situation in the bow sector.
    1. Fizik M
      Fizik M 17 August 2020 07: 55 New
      +1
      Quote: K298rtm
      4. About D obn. The fact that the mark appeared on the recorder earlier (than on the IKO and by ear) is a fact. Just keep in mind that this is a SIGNAL, which became (or not) a PURPOSE only after classification (primary). Therefore, Dobn was recorded in the recorder reports. Personally, I have always been of the opinion that Dobn targets are D classification (you will not be able to shoot at the primary marks on the recorder and even on the indicator).

      Depends on the tactical situation. In the open ocean, targets are, to put it mildly, "much less" than in the "near" ranges of the Barents Sea (I had to observe personally at the control exit at Spravtsev), and when "they are already waiting" and the mark appears "where it should be", at least , readiness can be increased immediately.
      Quote: K298rtm
      5. D obn foreign plan for 80 kbt is great. Only now there is nothing to hit the (877th) with (this is a miscalculation of those who developed the TTZ on the square. They could have included a pair of 81s in the ammunition, only the "Node" could be finalized and data entry).

      This is in the oceanic zone, and most likely in autumn or winter. It is clear that "normal ranges" are usually much shorter. In fact, I know of the case of the discovery of 877 IPL in the second RCAO (!), And a well-worked watch managed to "work out" on the target so that the contact was accepted by aviation.
      Quote: K298rtm
      6. A couple of words about "Harp" - in fact, it is a GAS for lighting the near situation in the bow sector.

      Yes, a very good station. I was taught on it at sea visually, right up to special maneuvering in order to show the young, still understudy of the watch officer how a rather stale wake of the boat looks on the "Harp" (etc.).
      There were technical and tactical ideas about "Harp", and in this connection in Obninsk I was "closely acquainted" with "Red Hans". His initial "violent reaction" ( "You… .l, you will" teach "the head how to use the" Harp ", despite the fact that the very first" Harp "in the Navy was on my" steamer "!!!! ) ended with the fact that "nadrinkavshis", volunteered to help him dig out the garage after a snowfall, where our dispute was resolved, as I understand it, the former F-RTS-33. AT my favor. laughing
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          2. Fizik M
            Fizik M 17 August 2020 07: 26 New
            +1
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            Assistant Adviser to the Minister of Defense, Admiral G. Suchkov.

            Alexander, let me tell you about myself.
            Apparatus (and staff assistants) at G.A. did not have.
            But the fact that I communicated with him very well (including because sometimes I harshly "hacked to death" with him on a number of issues) is a fact. As well as the fact that G.A. "loaded" (despite the fact that he himself "spun like a squirrel in a wheel") with many questions.
            1. timokhin-aa
              17 August 2020 09: 12 New
              0
              Who cares? Did he help? Yes. Who would be asked to help? Not.
              So in essence everything is correct, I remembered about "there was no apparatus and assistants" when I wrote that comment.
              1. Fizik M
                Fizik M 17 August 2020 11: 06 New
                +1
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                Who would be asked to help?

                before that there was a very tough check (by G.A. S himself)
                and knowledge, and analysis of information and documents,
                incl. from deliberate collision "head-on" with some VIP OPK laughing
                1. timokhin-aa
                  17 August 2020 11: 25 New
                  0
                  Well, all the more
  6. andrey-ivanov
    andrey-ivanov 16 August 2020 11: 51 New
    -1
    Thanks for the article and, in general, for the entire cycle. I read it with pleasure. But somehow all this is sad. One gets the impression that our leadership has the fleet as "not sewn to ... a sleeve" - ​​well, they do not know what it is for, what tasks it should perform and what to do with it in general. Except for parades, of course.
  7. Pamir
    Pamir 16 August 2020 16: 45 New
    0
    A very informative article from Klimov, the physicist said, learn physics, chemistry, algebra, geometry. You will be designers of ship-aircraft carriers and their weapons, and most importantly, methods and methods with the help of various scanning and transillumination modules in different environments will become, so no , courtyard running was more important. And here we have, point-blank from a five-barrel weapon. The author has no way to explain the basics of physical, chemical, algebraic laws, these are whole sections of textbooks, Aki and Buki, if we like. The axiom is that, any carrier weapons, blind and deaf, its power at the heart of the means of detecting-tracking-targeting means of destruction is the ability to see and hear, determine the exact geo-aero-hydro location of enemy targets and the point of finding oneself in relation to the targets, at a particular moment in time and when countering the means of detecting the enemy. Everything is very difficult here, on each parameter of any module, whole R&D teams are working. From here, we, mere mortal users, understand the importance of everything , very problematic. No, you have to read, read and study.
  8. Crabong
    Crabong 12 October 2020 12: 27 New
    -1
    In general, when one gets acquainted with this topic, one gets the feeling of some sort of organized sabotage. What are the requirements for the increased buoyancy of the submarine (leading to the creation of noisy "water carriers"), what is the requirement for the placement of TA devices in 1 compartment (leading to the impossibility of placing a full-fledged spherical antenna of the SAC). And in terms of the element base, it is a disaster! This is necessary - it was only in the 2000s that digital equipment was introduced! I generally keep quiet about torpedo weapons!
  9. Vale-90
    Vale-90 14 November 2020 00: 12 New
    0
    Wow! And parts of my article were planted on VO)))