Military Review

Additional payments for risk, complexity and responsibility for pilots, submariners, scouts, missilemen

49

“I would like to inform you that on July 17, I signed an order on the introduction from July 1, 2020 of a monthly allowance for certain categories of military personnel of the flight personnel, seafarers, the Main Directorate of the General Staff and the Strategic Missile Forces. ... the allowance is established from the salary for military positions: for officers - 100%, for warrant officers and sergeants - 110%, for soldiers - 120%. "


These words of Defense Minister Shoigu, said at a conference call on July 17 this year, have become a balm for almost 45 thousand servicemen. Indeed, there has not been such a significant increase in payments for a long time. In my opinion, this order is quite comparable with the famous 400 order No. 2007 of Minister Serdyukov.

Of course, Order 400 can be criticized for a lot. And for the fact that he led to corruption in the army, and for giving the commanders and chiefs a lever of pressure on obstinate officers and, conversely, a "carrot" to encourage those who are loyal to the commander. A wagon and a small cart are written on this topic. But in real life no one remembers this order today.

In fact, its operation ceased back in 2013. It was then that government financiers began to actively obstruct the allocation of additional funds to the Ministry of Defense for the implementation of this order. However, this order played its positive role. He pushed the reform in the Russian Armed Forces.

The first responses of officers and contractors have already appeared about some injustice of the order of Minister Shoigu. Why are only pilots, sailors, scouts and strategic missile officers entitled to surcharges? What's worse than the rest? I think the ministry foresaw such a reaction. But the order came out. An order that, according to some analysts, could "separate" the army (which is highly questionable).

What is the reason for the appearance of this order? Judging by the categories of servicemen whom it concerns, the order is forced. Especially for the pilots. How many times has the question of low salaries for this category even been raised on the pages of our publication? Whoever wrote that a military pilot in civilian life is a welcome frame for any airline, and the salary there is several times higher than in the army.

Servicemen of the categories listed in the order are really piece and expensive "goods". The training of such officers does not even cost hundreds of thousands of rubles, but millions. And service for many is associated with a constant risk to life. This is the real elite of the Russian Armed Forces.

An important question is also about the responsibility of military personnel. The topic is as old as talking about small salaries. In the hands of precisely these categories of officers and soldiers, there is equipment, the cost of which is no longer calculated in hundreds of thousands of rubles and not even in millions. The cost has long crossed the line of billions.

Agree, the cost of an error of even one serviceman in this case increases unreasonably.

Why did the Minister of Defense take such measures? It seems to me that this is a way to deal with the financial block in the government. Those ridiculous increases that have been widely advertised annually in recent years have not even led to the stabilization of the level of money content at some level relative to inflation. They led to a drop in the standard of living of servicemen. In October there will be another increase ... by 3%. But this does not cause much joy in the army.

It is quite possible that the ministry decided to raise the content not all at once, so as not to frighten the "accountants", but in parts. First, those categories that are critical for the army. Then another, a third, and so on. Well, this is also an option.

In general, the system of additional payments that existed in the Soviet Army must be revived. In recent years, our servicemen have been little in the garrisons. Business trips, not only to participate in hostilities, but also to exercises, to master new equipment and weapons, and so on, are common for most. The army is engaged in combat training. And how does the launch of a rocket with practical ammunition for missilemen differ from a combat launch? How does the combat duty of submariners in peacetime differ from the military (except for the use of combat weapons, of course)?

In general, the appearance of Shoigu's order on additional additional payments to certain categories of servicemen is a necessary, even necessary thing. But even this order will not solve the problem of personnel drain from the Armed Forces. You can't solve a problem in parts. It is more like patching holes in clothes. Where it breaks, we put a patch there.

The problems of the modern army have been known for a long time. This includes housing for families, and the improvement of military camps, and sanatorium and recreational activities, the opportunity to relax in the health resorts of the Moscow region. You can list a lot and still something will be forgotten. And the increase in the army became a problem. Many officer posts have appeared that simply did not exist before.

Only a comprehensive solution to the problems will leave young officers in the army. An officer came to a distant garrison with a young wife - get an apartment. Kindergarten nearby, shops nearby, club nearby, work for my wife nearby. He brought home his earned money with a proud air ... And you discuss your vacation not according to the principle "we won't go there - it's expensive, but at will:" Let's go to ... "

I am sure that objections will now follow. Well, of course, there are many allowances in the army, which in total reach 100%! I agree. But up to 100% of what? Oklada! For special conditions of service, for difficult climatic conditions, for class, for command, for work with secret documents. Yes, for passing physical training, finally. And also the 13th salary ...

And let's remember the service housing provided. Or about compensation for rental housing. And how much does the lieutenant get in total? According to the accounting report - up to 60 thousand per month. Is it real? About 21 thousand for the position and more than 10 thousand for the title. Oh yes, for achievements in the service - plus 25%.

And the last thing. Why do combatants have no additional payments? At least those who were awarded military orders and medals for courage and heroism? Today there are enough such people in the army. I, of course, understand that "this requires large expenditures of budgetary funds." But no more than training a new specialist to replace the one who went into the reserve. After all, this practice existed in the USSR.

One can argue about the amount of such payments, but the fact that they are necessary is already clear to everyone. Received a military order - 5000 rubles a salary supplement, a medal - 3000 rubles a month. Here is the incentive for database participants. By the way, the same additional payments must be preserved when paying pensions.

In general, the signed order, I think, will play a role in stabilizing the army personnel. It is not for nothing that I compared it to Order No. 400. An increase in the pay of servicemen will not only preserve the officer corps, but also increase the prestige of military service in the RF Armed Forces. The army must become attractive to young people. Moreover, the international situation is now forcing us to increase the strength of the Armed Forces.
Author:
Photos used:
Dmitriy Pichugin, airliners.net, commons.wikimedia.org
49 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must to register.

I have an account? Sign in

  1. Insurgent
    Insurgent 7 August 2020 10: 06 New
    +2
    Additional payments for risk, complexity and responsibility for pilots, submariners, scouts, missilemen

    Finally, "decrypted"! Otherwise, there was already this news on the VO, where it was written very vaguely about the allowances ...
    1. smel
      smel 7 August 2020 11: 51 New
      22
      This article did not decode anything. She's just about nothing. Just a clumsy attempt to pour oil on an eternal problem and brighten up not entirely correct salaries.
      Various kinds of payments, surcharges, allowances, bonuses, etc., etc. are just ways
      a) make the appearance of concern for the standard of living of military personnel
      b) increase the salary of a soldier in such a way that when a soldier is fired, nothing will be gained from this
      c) the military pensioners did not get anything from this
      d) keep specialists in this way.
      In the article, even the author is talking about some kind of increase in salaries by 3%. I dare to remind you that this is not a salary increase. Three percent is an indexation of salaries to the level of last year's inflation. That is, inflation was growing last year, but the military out of their pockets, together with military pensioners, paid for this flaw in the state financial policy. And this year they still pay and will pay until October 1. By the way, this year's inflation is already being paid for.
      But what surprises me most of all is the reasoning about the usefulness of such actions by Serdyukov. And the author hopes in vain that no one remembers this order of the 400th. Remember, many remember. They remember kickbacks, the broken lives of people in uniform, they remember the great corruption component of this masterpiece of military command. And I was especially touched by the thesis that this prompted the military reform. Author! Wake up !!! What are you talking about? About the collapse, which some not quite conscientious and competent people call reform ???
      It’s not bad that individual soldiers will receive more during their service. But who will answer my question, what is the difference between the Strategic Missile Forces and the Land Forces and the Navy's missilemen? What is the difference between the scouts of the bigads of the special forces and the intelligence battalions of the formations? I'll tell you. They differ. But not so much that one sandwich with caviar, and the other empty cabbage soup.
      You can talk a lot on this topic. But my opinion is precisely this: a harmful order that damages the military brotherhood. And I would not be surprised if someday this particular stratification will lead to the fact that the infantryman will not lend a helping hand to a more wealthy colleague who has now been warmed up by the military leadership.
      1. Stas Sv
        Stas Sv 7 August 2020 12: 51 New
        14
        I agree 100%, especially for military pensioners.
        1. Podvodnik
          Podvodnik 7 August 2020 15: 26 New
          +7
          especially for military pensioners


          We are already waste material.
          1. not main
            not main 7 August 2020 22: 45 New
            +1
            Quote: Podvodnik
            especially for military pensioners


            We are already waste material.

            As you do not want to feel like "waste material"! Although from the point of view of the state ...
        2. ancient
          ancient 7 August 2020 20: 57 New
          +4
          Quote: Stas Sv
          I agree 100%, especially for military pensioners.

          Upon retirement, upon dismissal on OSHM received a "lump sum" and + for each "Cactus" and for "Banner" 3 thousand and. All ..... ended ... "fly" recourse .... further pension + "Afagan" + "WBD".
          That is why they made .. an increase .. as .. a "bonus" .... pensioners ... "pass by ... do not linger" wassat
          1. Lucy
            Lucy 11 August 2020 20: 16 New
            0
            A + for class 7-10 thousand? Unlike ... submariners, scouts, missilemen ...
      2. vik669
        vik669 7 August 2020 13: 21 New
        +5
        Yes, nothing new is the next dance on the rake - at one time, the salaries of doctors - general practitioners, that is, general practice, were increased, and there were no narrow specialization doctors, and all patients with all sores were referred to professional therapists because of their increased salaries so far to get to a narrow a specialist needs to survive a visit to a therapist, but everything is simple - all kinds of people are needed, all kinds of people are important ...!
      3. Shkodnik65
        Shkodnik65 7 August 2020 13: 43 New
        12
        [iAnd I won't be surprised if someday this stratification will lead to the fact that the infantryman will not lend a helping hand to a more wealthy colleague,] [/ i]
        Well, what do you want? For one serviceman of the flight crew, there are, in different types of aviation, up to a hundred support specialists who, firstly, don’t drive a bald and, secondly, understand that without the collective work of ALL, the pilot will not fulfill his task. People know that it is not pilots who set salaries for themselves, but all the same, it is very offensive that you were initially identified as a second-class person, because the pilots already received a higher salary than the engineering and technical personnel and military personnel of the support units. This is division and it is only harmful! as well as the division of military pensioners into those who do not have a decreasing coefficient (military prosecutors and judges are cabinet laborers) and all the rest, with a decreasing one, including those who did not get out of combat. But who pays attention to this? What they have decided, they will do - plug the holes. As an "Uzbek": what I see is what I sing about.
      4. zenion
        zenion 7 August 2020 16: 59 New
        +2
        This is not an appearance of concern, but a way to protect yourself. Basically, these troops are not nobles and the sons of billionaires, but the children of those who have nothing to defend. Three hundred years ago, one Japanese emperor issued a decree that every Japanese family should have their own home. Some were surprised - why? The Amperator replied - they will have something to protect. Let it be made of bamboo and paper, but a roof over your head.
      5. sailor roman
        sailor roman 8 August 2020 11: 49 New
        +1
        You can talk a lot on this topic. But my opinion is precisely this: a harmful order that damages the military brotherhood. And I would not be surprised if someday this particular stratification will lead to the fact that the infantryman will not lend a helping hand to a more wealthy colleague who has now been warmed up by the military leadership.
        And this, in your note, is the most essential.
    2. Civil
      Civil 7 August 2020 12: 34 New
      0
      They always raise the leadership, the rest as an example.
      1. Ruswolf
        Ruswolf 8 August 2020 10: 53 New
        -3
        Quote: Civil
        They always raise the leadership, the rest as an example.

        Grandfather Lenin bequeathed: Learning Learning and Learning!
        Then you will have a lot of denashak! fellow
        Only he didn't say what he was studying ... bully
  2. Boris55
    Boris55 7 August 2020 10: 18 New
    +9
    for officers - 100%, for warrant officers and sergeants - 110%, for soldiers - 120%

    I like the differentiated approach. It does not increase the stratification of society, as it does with a dull percentage increase. Only these allowances will not be taken into account when assigning pensions ...
    1. dauria
      dauria 7 August 2020 19: 21 New
      +3
      I like the differentiated approach.


      This approach is fundamentally wrong. Not by profession, but at the place of service. In the USSR, there was an excellent sign - the number of posts filled by warrant officers. The reason is simple - they had freedom of choice. In general, in this regard, the officer was tied tightly - serve until retirement or leave to discredit. And it was necessary to get drunk really, and not "pretend". And if in the ZabVO, DalVO and others there was a replacement, then in the Volga region it was possible to fall into a hole and not crawl out until retirement.
      You just need to carry out a "differentiated" (in your opinion) accounting of all the "holes" and introduce markups there. All. And let the military representative sit in the city of Vladik and envy the summer from Sredne-Belaya.
  3. parusnik
    parusnik 7 August 2020 10: 27 New
    13
    And it is not easier to increase salaries, from him the pension comes ... And from the salary allowances ...
    1. Insurgent
      Insurgent 7 August 2020 10: 31 New
      +7
      Quote: parusnik
      And it is not easier to increase salaries, from him the pension comes ... And from the salary allowances ...

      So the costs will be, of a completely different order of numbers ...
      1. parusnik
        parusnik 7 August 2020 10: 38 New
        +4
        So the costs will be, of a completely different order of numbers ...
        ... and pension as well ..
        1. Insurgent
          Insurgent 7 August 2020 10: 51 New
          +9
          Quote: parusnik
          So the costs will be, of a completely different order of numbers ...
          ... and pension as well ..

          How can you not understand that the Ministry of Finance's main concern is not the size of pensions, but lowering the level of spending ...
        2. Cyril G ...
          Cyril G ... 7 August 2020 12: 02 New
          +5
          Exactly. When was there the last increase in the reduction coefficient for the pension?
    2. Prisoner
      Prisoner 7 August 2020 10: 48 New
      +5
      It's hardly likely. As long as you have strength and health, serve and get it. They'll write off, sorry, the treasury is not rubber. The usual thing. hi
    3. Lopatov
      Lopatov 7 August 2020 10: 58 New
      +4
      Quote: parusnik
      And it's not easier to increase salaries

      Simpler.
      But "the pension comes from him," as well as a bunch of other payments from lifting to funeral

      And therefore they are doing nonsense, often such increases are even harmful. As was the case with "complexity and tension" under Medvedev / Serdyukov, whose payments led to an avalanche growth of corruption.
    4. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 7 August 2020 11: 50 New
      +1
      Quote: parusnik
      And it is not easier to increase salaries, from him the pension comes ... And from the salary allowances ...

      This is the whole point, especially for divers.
  4. iouris
    iouris 7 August 2020 11: 14 New
    +6
    Old people among the people know: no matter how they pay extra for risk, additional payments for risk, the complexity and responsibility at headquarters of all levels will be higher.
    1. Berkut752
      Berkut752 7 August 2020 12: 02 New
      +4
      Compared, so in the headquarters of all levels, the risk is complexity and responsibility is the most difficult ...
      Already horrible, what a difficulty.
  5. Cyril G ...
    Cyril G ... 7 August 2020 12: 00 New
    10
    Received a military order - 5000 rubles a salary supplement, a medal - 3000 rubles a month. Here is the incentive for database participants.


    So then the reward system should be revised. There should be a category of combat awards that the rear services cannot receive by earning hemorrhoids from the rear. It should be clearly indicated in the award, for what exactly, etc., etc. And you go into the headquarters - the ranks of the orders shine, you got into a company that does not climb out of combat missions - at best, sand ...
    1. Sergey Valov
      Sergey Valov 7 August 2020 12: 21 New
      +9
      Personally, I think that there is no need to pay extra for the orders, then the meaning of the orders is lost. The orders must be given privileges. You have to pay for participation, for the conditions of service, for years of service, etc. And I absolutely agree with the thesis that a very clear status of the orders is needed, so that a person who has not been under fire could not receive military orders in principle. So for length of service, you cannot give orders, either a special medal or just a patch on the uniform is enough. As for the surcharges, it really is no accident that the pilots and submariners go for two years, plus the service in the "bear corners" does not add health.
      1. Cyril G ...
        Cyril G ... 7 August 2020 13: 00 New
        +6
        Quote: Sergey Valov
        plus service in "bear corners" does not add health.


        Doesn't add much. The entire service took place in the Arctic Circle. He retired cleanly for health reasons.
    2. yuratanja1950
      yuratanja1950 7 August 2020 17: 56 New
      +3
      Quote: Cyril G ...
      So then the reward system should be revised. There should be a category of combat awards that the rear services cannot receive by earning hemorrhoids from the rear. It should be clearly indicated in the award, for what exactly, etc., etc.


      Yes, in the statuses of awards, it is already described what - for what - is awarded ... However, this did not prevent Gorbachev from presenting the highest award of Russia - the Order of St. Andrew the First-Called ...
      Well, and accordingly, many bosses have awards that, according to their status, they could NOT HAVE IN ANY WAY !!! request
      So ... the system ... the reward system is rotten and corrupt through and through ... The phrase from Krylov's grandfather is very suitable here: "The cuckoo praises the rooster for praising the cuckoo" ... laughing hi
    3. ancient
      ancient 7 August 2020 21: 02 New
      +1
      Quote: Cyril G ...
      And you go into the headquarters - the ranks of the orders shine, got into a company that does not climb out of military missions - at best, sand ...

      Yeah ... there was such a "saying" ...... "and on his mighty chest, one medal hung in a bunch and ... not for" taking "cities, but for the length of service" years " sad
  6. sergo1914
    sergo1914 7 August 2020 12: 14 New
    +4
    I went into the jewelry one and went nuts. Stars for shoulder straps are on sale. Both large (well, it's understandable here) and small (!!!). Made of gold. Fuck. More snakeskin belts and harnesses to start making. With fashion brand logo.
    1. iouris
      iouris 7 August 2020 12: 55 New
      13
      Apparently, this is a consequence of the appearance in the ranks of the RF Ministry of Defense "girls-generals" and non-traditional ... social lifts.
    2. Captain45
      Captain45 8 August 2020 02: 18 New
      0
      Quote: sergo1914
      I went into the jewelry one and went nuts. Stars for shoulder straps are on sale. Both large (well, it's understandable here) and small (!!!). Made of gold. Fuck.

      So what do you want? Now colonels wear stars on their shoulder straps, which are equal in size to those of generals. And what is made of gold, well, whoever has what pocket, what will pull, is molded from that.
    3. Ruswolf
      Ruswolf 8 August 2020 11: 00 New
      0
      Quote: sergo1914
      I went into the jewelry one and went nuts. Stars for shoulder straps are on sale. Both large (well, it's understandable here) and small (!!!). Made of gold. Fuck. More snakeskin belts and harnesses to start making. With fashion brand logo.

      What? It is high time to dress the officers as a demobile. And then they all run around the city to the camouflage.
  7. The comment was deleted.
  8. BAI
    BAI 7 August 2020 16: 35 New
    +4
    Why do combatants have no additional payments?

    To fight is the military duty of a soldier. If the war is ordered, then what are the guilty of those who did not smile this "happiness"? If voluntarily - then why pay volunteers? It is necessary to pay to the participants in the hostilities who have suffered damage to their health (wounded), and necessarily - to the families of the victims. Over the past 30 years, many people have died in our war. But only the families of the Pskov paratroopers and sailors of the Kursk received payments (not counting insurance).
    Received a military order - 5000 rubles a salary supplement, a medal - 3000 rubles a month. Here is the incentive for database participants.

    1. We are awarded with military orders for the anniversary.
    2. Naryshkin has never fought. Absolutely. But she has ALL orders of the Russian Federation (except for the heroine mother).
    1. Ruswolf
      Ruswolf 8 August 2020 11: 02 New
      +1
      Quote: BAI
      Naryshkin never fought. Absolutely. But she has ALL orders of the Russian Federation (except for the heroine mother).

      This is a government oversight. He can't do it until Mother Heroine ... Works too well
  9. dauria
    dauria 7 August 2020 17: 08 New
    +6
    An officer came to a distant garrison with a young wife - get an apartment. Kindergarten nearby, shops nearby, club nearby, work for my wife nearby


    Thanks for the fun. In the picture is Dauria. On the left, the border with the Chinese is 5 km away. MSD, OVE, border guards and state farm. The apartment will be given, first with the addition, then separately. There is no hot water, but there is a sauna. Out of a hundred wives, 20 people will get a job. From entertainment - the Chita-Zabaikalsk train 2 times a day. You can also buy lemonade there. Fresh frozen lump beer is sometimes delivered. No forest, no river, no lake. Winter is from September to May, nowhere to give birth, even deserters don't run away - you won't live long in the steppe.
    Now the question is - the pilot will be lured there. And what about the deputy for IAS, the head of the TECH unit? Doctor? Meteorologist? A security company commander? And the same border guards and infantry, for whom these pilots are sitting here?
    What, gentlemen, bourgeoisie, sorry for the guards of the country and your palaces? laughing
    Survived.
    1. Cyril G ...
      Cyril G ... 7 August 2020 19: 49 New
      +1
      You were not in Chukotka wassat drinks
      1. dauria
        dauria 7 August 2020 19: 56 New
        +5
        You were not in Chukotka

        I was on Sakhalin - there is a lafa. Even warrant officers in the unit appeared laughing
        But I've seen enough holes from Khad Bulak to Smirnykh. drinks
        And what is surprising - one district, one perks. And there are holes - and next to a gorgeous place. Magdagachi and military representative in Vladik.
        1. Cyril G ...
          Cyril G ... 7 August 2020 20: 02 New
          +2
          In addition to POGO, our squadron was sitting there. sat and silently, hell who will kick out from there and in zero.
          The buns were also, uh, weighty in my opinion ... Pension coefficient 2.0, a year in two, etc.
          For at least 7.5 years of service in Chukotka and Kamchatka, an officer earned a minimum pension.
  10. Captain45
    Captain45 8 August 2020 00: 43 New
    +1
    Why do combatants have no additional payments? At least those who were awarded military orders and medals for courage and heroism? Today there are enough such people in the army. (C)
    To this, as a combatant with several business trips to the UK, I will say in the words of Trofim:
    I did not serve for titles and orders,
    I do not like the stars for pulling,
    But I have served the stars of the captain in full!
    So, as a participant in the database, I am also a little offended that the state treats us. like ....., but I was going there without thinking that I would be a member of the database and everything would be chocolate for me, it was just that someone had to go and I went.
    And the fact that the state treats us ... is not good, so let them ... and choke on this ... and
    My opinion - I have the right!
  11. Ersh
    Ersh 8 August 2020 10: 31 New
    -2
    Correct order! The worst thing is leveling! Yes, all specialties are important, yes, every screw is needed. But there are specialties on which victory in a possible, God forbid, war depends. I agree with the author, it is necessary to keep specialists from switching to civilian life.
  12. andrew42
    andrew42 8 August 2020 15: 10 New
    +2
    It would be better for Shoigu to gut the offices and personal accounts of "officers" of resource-producing corporations. There will be enough for allowances for all the branches of the RF Armed Forces, and there will be more.
  13. Doliva63
    Doliva63 8 August 2020 21: 41 New
    +1
    "Whoever wrote that a military pilot in civilian life is a welcome frame for any airline ..."
    Such only a complete goof can write. the author is not in the subject of what he writes about.
    1. Cyril G ...
      Cyril G ... 12 August 2020 23: 33 New
      0
      I don’t know about the pilots - for a naval sailor to be able to go to sea on civilian ships will cost a lot of money. Surely the pilot will cost more.
      1. Doliva63
        Doliva63 13 August 2020 07: 55 New
        0
        Quote: Cyril G ...
        I don’t know about the pilots - for a naval sailor to be able to go to sea on civilian ships will cost a lot of money. Surely the pilot will cost more.

        It's not about military sailors / pilots, but about how much they are expected there. Nobody is waiting for military pilots in GA.
        1. Cyril G ...
          Cyril G ... 13 August 2020 08: 35 New
          0
          The question is not whether they are waiting or not. I described to you what it looks like for the military. Expensive and long. Two years minimum. From my graduation, as far as I know, one comrade quit after serving as an SF officer for 5 years and went to work for international shipping. Now like the captain of a container ship. 1 out of 92 people.
          Again, the well-known PIC of the Superjet that burned in Sheremetyevo - the FSB military flight in the past.
  14. Doliva63
    Doliva63 8 August 2020 21: 52 New
    +4
    "Received a military order - 5000 rubles, a supplement to the salary, a medal - 3000 rubles a month."
    We still need to differentiate orders by price - from KZ to ..., so the staff will start trading! laughing Nonsense. I was a cadet, a cadet of another school came to us, a Hero of the Soviet Union, he got a little more in his arms than me, because was a sergeant. Are we going to fight for money now?
  15. trophy
    trophy 10 August 2020 09: 16 New
    +1
    The introduction of the allowance is actually a gray salary, like 1010 for civilians. Supplements do not in any way affect the size of the pension and severance pay upon dismissal. If you have already decided to do good to really valuable specialists, increase the SDK in these categories. But no, even so but to enclose.