Military Review

The death of the cavalry group Rednecks

234
The death of the cavalry group Rednecks

Drawing of a cadet-Alekseev, which shows a squadron of Wrangel's Russian army in June 1920. White aviation played an important role in the outcome of the operation to defeat the cavalry group of the Rednecks


Pursued by planes, rushing between the shock groups of the White Guards, the Redneck's cavalry group was completely defeated. Red units, suffering heavy losses and having lost most of their material, fled in small groups to the east and northeast.

Counteroffensive of the 13th Soviet Army


After the successful breakthrough of Wrangel's Russian army from the Crimea to Tavria, the fighting continued practically without pauses. White still tried to attack, but their attack was exhausted. By June 19, 1920, Wrangel's army reached the Dnieper - Orekhov - Berdyansk line. On June 24, a White Guard landing force captured Berdyansk for two days. From the Sea of ​​Azov to the village of Gnadenfeld, the Don corps was located: the 2nd division (mounted on horses) and the 3rd division (foot). Further, the honor of the 2nd corps of Slashchev was located: the 34th and 13th divisions, the 1st corps of Kutepov and the Barbovich Horse Corps. In the area of ​​the village of Mikhailovka, there was the Drozdovskaya division of General Vitkovsky and the 2nd cavalry of General Morozov, in the area of ​​the village of Bolshaya Belozerka - the Kuban division. To the left of the Kuban was a native brigade, with a base in Verkhniy Rogachik. Markov and Kornilov divisions were located opposite Kakhovka in the Dmitrovka-Natalino area. The front line of Kakhovka to the mouth of the Dnieper was occupied by the 1st Cavalry Division. On this line, the Whites pulled up the rear, replenished the units that had suffered heavy losses and strengthened themselves.

Meanwhile, the Soviet command was preparing a counteroffensive. The defeated 13th Soviet army was hastily restored, reinforcements were transferred, three rifle divisions and two brigades were sent. The 1st Separate Cavalry Corps of the Rednecks (created on the basis of Dumenko's corps) was transferred from the North Caucasus. Reorganized and replenished, the cavalry corps had 12 thousand sabers and bayonets, 6 armored cars and artillery. Eideman was appointed commander of the 13th Army instead of the disgraced commander Pauki.

Taking into account the experience of battles with Denikin by breaking through the front with powerful mobile formations, the Soviet command planned to cut off the enemy from the Crimea with converging strikes, dismember and destroy the White Army in Tavria. After the death of the army, the white Crimea was doomed. The command of the 13th Army formed two shock groups: 1) Fedko's group (30th, 46th and 15th rifle divisions, the 2nd brigade and two brigades of the 23rd division); 2) the cavalry group of Zhloba (1st cavalry corps, 2nd cavalry division Dydenko, 40th rifle division and an air group - 9 aircraft). Fedko's group was supposed to strike from the north, from the Aleksandrovsk region, to forge Kutepov's 1st army corps and break through to Melitopol. The Redneck's group with a blow from the east was supposed to crush Abramov's Don corps and go to the rear of the main forces of the whites, cutting off their escape routes to the Crimea. In addition, in the west, from the Berislav area, the Latvian and 52nd divisions went on the offensive, which received the task of crossing the Dnieper at Kakhovka and advancing on Perekop.


Soviet military leader, hero of the Civil War Dmitry Petrovich Zhloba (1887-1938)

Goons group blow


On June 27, 1920, the offensive of the 13th Soviet Army began. Fedka's group acted unsuccessfully. Here, the Reds, who had just recovered from a heavy defeat, were opposed by selected White Guard units. There were no powerful equestrian formations capable of finding the enemy's weak spot and breaking through to the rear. As a result, White not only repulsed the attack, but launched a counteroffensive and moved to Aleksandrovsk. The failure of Fedko's group, as well as of the red divisions in the Kakhovka area, predetermined the defeat of the Redneck's corps. Moreover, the Reds' strike was not sudden. On June 25-26, intelligence informed Wrangel about the approach of the Redneck's cavalry corps. It was not possible to strike a sudden blow. There was only tactical surprise, the white command did not expect the red cavalry to attack so soon. As a result, Wrangel began regrouping troops and forming two shock groups with the aim of taking the Reds in ticks.

On June 27, the red cavalry was concentrated in the Belmanka-Tsare-Konstantinovka area in the Melitopol direction. On June 28, the Redneck's troops launched an offensive. In the area of ​​the Verkhn. The Tokmak Reds attacked the 2nd Don Division of the Whites. Near the village of Chernigovka, a rare battle of armored cars took place at this time. White and red cars rammed. They tried to kick in the side to overturn the enemy. The White Guards in this battle lost 4 armored vehicles, red - 3. Behind the armored cars was the lava of the red cavalry. The Cossacks, who were several times inferior in strength, were defeated. The famous Gundorovsky regiment was cut down almost entirely. The other Don units, which went to the rescue of their own, were discarded by the Reds. The numerical inequality was aggravated by the fact that part of the bottom was still horseless, which sharply worsened the ability to maneuver. By evening, the Reds occupied the area with. Tokmak and Chernigovka. On the southern flank, the 40th Infantry Division, after a stubborn battle, occupied the villages of Andreevka and Sofievka, defeated the 3rd Don Division and reached the Sea of ​​Azov in the Nogaysk region. The front of the White Army was broken through.

On July 29, the red cavalry entered the Yushanli River. Wrangel pushed all free forces into the area of ​​the breakthrough: the remaining regiments of the Don, armored cars and an air squadron. White Guards force up to a cavalry division, supported by armored cars and an air squadron (12 vehicles), inflict a counterstrike from the Mikhailovka area. White pushed the red left flank. After regrouping, the cavalry group again went on the offensive and again threw the enemy back to the Yushanly River. June 30 - July 2, the fighting continued with varying success. The Goons group had little progress.

There were battles on the western flank, in the Kakhovka area. The Reds crossed the Dnieper and, after fierce fighting, occupied Kakhovka. However, they could not go further. The White Guards counterattacked and forced the enemy to go on the defensive. Then they recaptured Kakhovka.


The defeat of the red cavalry


The White Command actively used aviation. White had no advantage in strength. However, Soviet aviation was divided into different sectors of the front. And the Wrangelites were able to concentrate almost all of their aviation against the Redneck divisions - 20 vehicles led by General Tkachev. The Whites defeated the Red Air Group, which covered the Redneck's corps. Then they began to bomb the cavalry, fire at it from machine guns. Having used up the ammunition, they simply scared off the horses, sweeping over the ground. The red cavalry, not being able to fight the enemy aircraft, was dispersed. This was used by the white foot units. They launched counterattacks. They clung to individual settlements, held back the onslaught of the enemy with machine-gun and artillery fire. The Red Command switched to night marches, but summer nights are short. Therefore, the pace of the offensive dropped sharply. In four days, the Zhloba's cavalry advanced only 30-40 km.

Thus, having broken through the enemy's front on the very first day, then the Redneck's group was carried away by small fights and victories over individual units of the Whites, in fact, it was tied up and stamped on the spot. The cavalry had to quickly break through to the deep rear of the enemy, avoid unnecessary battles. The 40th Rifle Division, operating on the southern flank, practically did not interact with the Redneck's group and advanced sluggishly. This allowed the white command to complete the regrouping of forces. This was also facilitated by the unsuccessful offensive of the Fedko group, its low combat effectiveness, the passivity of the Berislav group, which could not expand the bridgehead at Kakhovka. As a result, the command of the 13th Army did not use the success of the Goons group at the beginning of the operation and missed the chance to win.

In the meantime, the white command pulled everything that was possible from the passive sectors of the front. Three infantry and one cavalry divisions were concentrated. A total of about 11 thousand bayonets and sabers with armored vehicles and armored trains. They tried to overlay the Reds from all sides. By the evening of July 2, 1920, on the southern flank, in the area of ​​the villages of Orekhovka and Astrakhanka, the 2nd and 3rd Don divisions (3,5-4,5 thousand bayonets and sabers) were located. The Kornilov division (1800 bayonets), the Drozdovskaya division (2,5 bayonets) and the 2nd Cavalry Division (1,5 sabers) were advancing from the west. From the northern direction, from the area of ​​Big Tokmak, the 13th Infantry Division was to strike. The Wrangelites surrounded the enemy in a half-ring and took them in pincers. The Red cavalry, not knowing about the concentration of large enemy forces (reconnaissance failure), on July 3 was going to resume the offensive.

On the morning of July 3, in the area of ​​the village of Klefeld, a counter battle between the 3rd Don Division and the Reds began. Troops of the Goons pushed the Donets in the direction of Melitopol. The Red cavalry was 15 km from the city. A fierce battle raged north of the city. The Kornilovites, supported by armored cars, began an offensive behind enemy lines. Dybenko's 2nd cavalry division first repelled the onslaught of the Kornilov division. But the dashing onslaught of the red cavalry was repulsed by strong machine-gun and artillery fire, a blow from the air group. The Reds attacked from different directions mixed and began to withdraw. Troop control was lost. Part retreated to the east, and the main forces went north - to Big Tokmak. But there they ran into parts of the 13th division and came under fire from armored trains plying on the railroad. The cavalry group retreats to the south and falls under the blow of the Drozdovites.

Pursued by planes, rushing between the shock groups of the White Guards, the Redneck's cavalry group was completely defeated. Red units, suffering heavy losses and having lost much of the material part, fled in small groups to the east and northeast. Only a quarter of the original composition reached its own, thousands of Red Army men were captured, the Whites captured 60 guns, 200 machine guns and other trophies.

However, Wrangel's troops were unable to develop their success. The White army was drained of blood, tired of continuous fighting, the transfer of units from one sector of the front to another. There were no fresh units and reserves for an immediate offensive. And the units participating in the defeat of the Redneck's group had to be again thrown into dangerous areas. The Whites did not have the opportunity, unlike the Reds, to quickly replenish their ranks. It was difficult to make up for the losses. The Red Army, despite high losses, was able to continue the onslaught. Already on July 2-3, the Reds again crossed the Dnieper, captured Kakhovka. At the same time, Fedko's group began to move again, somewhat recovered from the previous failure. On July 4, the Reds even temporarily occupy Bolshoi Tokmak, on the 5th - Mikhailovka. However, these attacks were already late. White, having eliminated the breakthrough of the Redneck's group, quickly managed to regain positions in the northwestern sector.


General P.N. Wrangel accepts the report of the pilot of the 5th squadron

The defeat of the Don landing


With the defeat of the Polish army in the Kiev region, hopes of joining with them became unrealistic. Therefore, the white command decided to break through to the Don. Hoping that the Don Cossacks will rise up against the Bolsheviks again. Wrangel decided to send an airborne detachment to the Don and rouse the Cossacks to a large-scale uprising in the rear of the Reds. The Don uprising would have improved the position of Wrangel's army. Diverting enemy forces. The opportunity arose to break through to the Don and obtain new human resources.

On July 9, 1920, a detachment under the command of Colonel Nazarov (800 people) was landed east of Mariupol. Nazarov's Cossacks captured the village of Novonikolaevskaya (now Novoazovsk) and fortified there. But the red command, taking into account the experience of previous operations of the white fleet, formed its Azov flotilla of 13 ships (gunboats, patrol boats and armed steamers). The red ships met white ships at sea, which were carrying the second echelon of Nazarov's detachment. The Whites were forced to retreat. On July 11, the Azov flotilla began bombing the village and suppressed the enemy's battery. On July 13, the Red Army led an attack from land and blocked the Whites. The strength and significance of the enemy landing by the Reds was greatly exaggerated. Therefore, against the Nazarov detachment, a powerful group was created consisting of two brigades (several thousand fighters, an armored detachment), as well as a significant number of separate garrison units, detachments and subunits of cadets, workers, militia, labor army and the Cheka. Plus the Azov flotilla.

On July 14, the Reds launched an assault from the land, from the sea, the Whites fired at the floating batteries. Taking advantage of the enemy's mistakes, on July 15, Nazarov managed to break through to the east and move in a raid along the villages. Due to the insurgent Cossacks, his detachment grew to 1,5 thousand people. But a large-scale uprising did not happen. Don was drained of blood. The combat-ready core of the Cossacks perished on the fronts of the First World War and the Civil War, died out of typhus, left with the Whites, or joined the Reds. The villages were half empty. On the other hand, there was a mental break. The Cossacks are tired of the war. There were almost no "irreconcilable" ones, and the rest accepted Soviet power.

The Reds pursued Nazarov's detachment on the heels, and on July 25, in the area of ​​the village of Konstantinovskaya, the Whites were blocked and pressed to the Don. Here the White Cossacks were attacked by two Red brigades. The detachment was destroyed. Some perished, some scattered, fled to the Salsk steppes. On July 28, the Reds settled the last group under the leadership of Bazilevich. The captured Cossacks were mobilized into the Red Army. Nazarov himself was captured, mistaken for a Red Army deserter and mobilized. Waiting for an opportunity, he fled to the whites in Northern Tavria. As a result, Don could not be raised.
Author:
Photos used:
https://ru.wikipedia.org/
Articles from this series:
Smoot. 1920 year

Battle of Rostov
The disaster of white Odessa
How Slashchev Crimea defended
Dono-Manych battle
The death of the Northern Army Miller
Why Western agent Kolchak is turned into a hero and martyr of Russia
The defeat of the army of Denikin in the battle of Tikhorets
How did the Ice Siberian campaign end
The fall of the White Kuban
Agony of White Novorossiysk
The death of the Kuban army
Denikin's resignation
Far Eastern Republic and the Japanese threat
Polish "liberation" campaign in Kiev
Baku “Blitzkrieg” of the Red Army
The battle for Belarus. May operation of the Red Army
War of the Russian Army Wrangel
The first victories of the Wrangel army
The defeat of the 13th Soviet Army in Northern Tavria
Our Kiev!
The battle for Rivne. How Budyonnovtsy smashed the Polish defense
Minsk is ours! The defeat of the Polish army in Belarus
Battle for Lviv. The failure of the Red Army in Galicia
234 comments
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  1. Mavrikiy
    Mavrikiy 7 August 2020 05: 41 New
    +2
    With the defeat of the Polish army in the Kiev region, hopes of joining with them became unrealistic.
    Yes, the Monarchy and the Constituent Assembly united with the Polish self-styledists, in hatred of the Reds. Is it adherence to principles? request
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 7 August 2020 06: 24 New
      -20
      Quote: Mavrikiy
      Yes, the Monarchy and the Constituent Assembly united with the Polish self-styledists, in hatred of the Reds. Is it adherence to principles?

      TwiceIn the decisive days of 1919 and 1920, in a united hatred of Russia and the Russians, Polish Russophobes united with the Bolsheviks, concluding an armistice and allowing the transfer of Latvian, Estonian mercenaries from the Polish front to the front with Russia.

      The skilful and excellent work of the Russian aviation in crushing the huge mass of enemy cavalry at the mentioned battle is admirable.

      And the mentioned Redneck and Dybenko were soon shot by their own comradesredatelsvto, treason and conspiracy (see decisions of the VK of the USSR Armed Forces).
      1. Bashkirkhan
        Bashkirkhan 7 August 2020 06: 32 New
        18
        Quote: Olgovich
        The skilful and excellent work of the Russian aviation in crushing the huge mass of enemy cavalry at the mentioned battle is admirable.

        This is a civil war, when Russian aircraft kill Russian soldiers. There is not much to admire here.
        1. DrEng527
          DrEng527 7 August 2020 21: 17 New
          -4
          Quote: Bashkirkhan
          when Russian aircraft kill Russian soldiers.

          Russian aviation, but Soviet soldiers - request
          Quote: Bashkirkhan
          There is not much to admire here.

          why? the reds had superiority in strength, but they were beaten ... alas, but then we saw it in the Finnish and the beginning of the Second World War hi
          1. IS-80_RVGK2
            IS-80_RVGK2 13 August 2020 12: 39 New
            -1
            Another background of the fabulous lost Russia?
            1. DrEng527
              DrEng527 13 August 2020 17: 56 New
              0
              Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
              Another background of the fabulous lost Russia?

              Sorry for you, you do not know the history of Russia and live with the tales of Agitprop ... request
              1. IS-80_RVGK2
                IS-80_RVGK2 14 August 2020 07: 58 New
                -2
                I know her quite well and not only from history books. The tales of agitprop are better than the filthy tales of the apologists of capitalism.
                1. DrEng527
                  DrEng527 16 August 2020 16: 23 New
                  +1
                  Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
                  Better tales of agitprop,

                  it is noticeable, so live in them bully
                  1. IS-80_RVGK2
                    IS-80_RVGK2 16 August 2020 19: 49 New
                    -3
                    And you are in yours with an invisible hand and other fabulous wonders. Until your fairy tale runs over you.
                    1. DrEng527
                      DrEng527 17 August 2020 15: 04 New
                      +2
                      Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
                      And you are in yours with an invisible hand

                      1) this is not my hand, I am not Gaidar / Chubais
                      2) It looks like you did not go to shops in the USSR, so it is stupid to discuss with you - you are not educated ignoramus request
                      1. IS-80_RVGK2
                        IS-80_RVGK2 17 August 2020 21: 52 New
                        -2
                        Quote: DrEng527
                        It looks like you did not go to shops in the USSR, so it is stupid to discuss with you - you are not a well-mannered ignoramus

                        What can we know about the USSR shkolotron?
                      2. DrEng527
                        DrEng527 18 August 2020 22: 58 New
                        +2
                        Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
                        What can we know about the USSR shkolotron?

                        1) you are a commonplace plagiarist request
                        2) in 1991 I was 31 years old, and you were not born yet, demagogue wink
      2. IS-80_RVGK2
        IS-80_RVGK2 13 August 2020 12: 38 New
        -1
        Quote: Bashkirkhan
        There is not much to admire here.

        What do you want from him. Well this is a petty-bourgeois Nazi.
        1. Bashkirkhan
          Bashkirkhan 13 August 2020 13: 07 New
          -1
          Yes, his admiration jarred me.
          1. DrEng527
            DrEng527 13 August 2020 17: 57 New
            +1
            Quote: Bashkirkhan
            Yes, his admiration jarred me.

            and then you were not conquered by the mass executions of prisoners and civilians in the Crimea?
        2. DrEng527
          DrEng527 13 August 2020 17: 58 New
          0
          Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
          Well this is a petty-bourgeois Nazi.

          so you are a proletarian? commie? bully Learn Marxism to get started!
          1. IS-80_RVGK2
            IS-80_RVGK2 14 August 2020 07: 47 New
            -1
            Come on, you fascist go with your advice to hell. And it's better to go straight to where you belong. To the gallows.
            1. DrEng527
              DrEng527 16 August 2020 16: 23 New
              0
              Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
              Come on, you're a fascinator

              you are ill-mannered and ignorant request
              1. IS-80_RVGK2
                IS-80_RVGK2 16 August 2020 19: 45 New
                -2
                Let's say? And how does this relate to the fact that you are a fascist?
                1. DrEng527
                  DrEng527 17 August 2020 15: 02 New
                  +1
                  Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
                  And how does this relate to the fact that you are a fascist?

                  trite, you do not understand the meaning of words! request
                  1. IS-80_RVGK2
                    IS-80_RVGK2 17 August 2020 21: 51 New
                    -2
                    It's trite, you're fabulously stupid.
    2. Mavrikiy
      Mavrikiy 7 August 2020 06: 44 New
      +7
      Quote: Olgovich
      And the aforementioned Redneck and Dybenko were soon shot by their own comrades for betraying,
      They shot for the cause. Soon - in 20 years! fool Hatred obscures your eyes?
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 7 August 2020 07: 05 New
        -15
        Quote: Mavrikiy
        They shot for the cause.

        rehabilitated.
        Quote: Mavrikiy
        Coming soon - in 20 years!

        They obviously thought it was too soon and would have lived for another 20 years.
        Quote: Mavrikiy
        Hatred obscures your eyes?

        belay
        They were not just shot, they were trampled, broken and humiliated - as, by the way, their family members.
        It's time to pity these unfortunates.
        Although, of course, what they fought for and yes
        1. Mavrikiy
          Mavrikiy 7 August 2020 07: 40 New
          +6
          Quote: Olgovich
          rehabilitated.

          You can join Gorbachev and Yeltsin. negative
          Quote: Olgovich
          They were not just shot, they were trampled, broken and humiliated-

          For the cause!
          Quote: Olgovich
          It's time to pity these unfortunates.
          Like any liberal and Russophobe, you can shed your crocodile tears for anyone. request
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 7 August 2020 08: 49 New
            -10
            Quote: Mavrikiy
            You can join Gorbachev and Yeltsin

            belay
            Rehabilitated by Stalin, Khrushchev, and Brezhnev
            Quote: Mavrikiy
            For the cause!

            Please declare, following the VK of the USSR Armed Forces, that: "Dybenko-American spy" yes

            I will be grateful yes
            1. Mavrikiy
              Mavrikiy 7 August 2020 08: 55 New
              +8
              Quote: Olgovich
              Rehabilitated and Stalin, and Khrushchev, and Brezhnev
              fool
              Rehabilitated posthumously in 1956.
              "Something has become with my memory,
              I don't remember what happened to me "
              This is not about you. This happens if you really want to. repeat
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 7 August 2020 09: 14 New
                -11
                Quote: Mavrikiy
                Rehabilitated posthumously in 1956.

                people were rehabilitated by Stalin (Rokossovsky, Gorbatov, etc.), and Khrushchev, and Brezhnev.

                You do not support yourself for something: I asked you: "Please declare, following the VK of the USSR Armed Forces, that: "Dybenko is an American spy!" "

                And you ... shy away. But what about your "For the cause? belay lol
                1. Mavrikiy
                  Mavrikiy 7 August 2020 09: 32 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  rehabilitated people and Stalin (Rokossovsky, Gorbatov, etc.)

                  Stalin rehabilitated people. And Khrushchev, Gorbachev, EBN - b .... dey. The difference is however.
                  Dybenko is an American spy! ""What's the difference under which article? fool
                  The main thing for the cause!
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 7 August 2020 10: 00 New
                    -9
                    Quote: Mavrikiy
                    Dybenko is an American spy! "

                    In! good

                    Now let EVERYONE have fun yes lol

                    To you + from me
                  2. Astra wild
                    Astra wild 7 August 2020 16: 40 New
                    0
                    Mauritius, in fairness, Dybenko, Redneck were rehabilitated in 1956.
                    Gorbachev 1956 was a PESHKA, however, he is a PESHKA with not smart thoughts
                  3. Astra wild
                    Astra wild 7 August 2020 16: 44 New
                    0
                    "American spy" is of course nonsense, but if you believe the facts, then he is cattle, but not an ideological Bolshevik
                    1. Aviator_
                      Aviator_ 7 August 2020 20: 18 New
                      +1
                      I accidentally talked on the Internet with a Russian German woman, whose 37 relative in the Orenburg region was repressed under Article 58. I asked if she had seen the case, direct relatives have the right to get acquainted with it. She wrote that she saw - one of the charges was something religious, clearly far-fetched. But there were several charges, including those for anti-Soviet agitation. I was not told anything specifically about this and about other charges. Probably nothing good was there. Maybe the relative did not deserve to be shot, but he had something to punish for.
                    2. DrEng527
                      DrEng527 7 August 2020 21: 20 New
                      -1
                      Quote: Aviator_
                      but he had something to punish for.

                      just understand - in your coordinates you have now written to be shot according to those laws hi
                    3. Aviator_
                      Aviator_ 7 August 2020 21: 33 New
                      -1
                      Naturally, under those laws, this is a very serious accusation. There are a lot of different punishments, not only the military. But for this, the court exists, so that within the framework of the fork, which always exists, to appoint an adequate punishment, taking into account the social danger of the act at a particular moment in time.
                    4. DrEng527
                      DrEng527 7 August 2020 23: 13 New
                      -2
                      Quote: Aviator_
                      But that's why there is a court,

                      you're funny, in the 30s these cases were considered 3ki, usually lists ... request
                      Quote: Aviator_
                      taking into account the social danger of the act at a particular point in time.

                      experience has shown that the social danger posed by SV hi
                    5. Aviator_
                      Aviator_ 7 August 2020 23: 36 New
                      +2
                      you're funny, in the 30s these cases were considered 3ki, usually lists ...

                      It’s interesting for you. Especially about lists of triplets. Here was such a figure of the early EBN, the prosecutor Kazannik. When the EBN did not have enough votes to enter the RSFSR Supreme Soviet, he (a Democrat from the Democrats) offered his place in the RSFSR Supreme Soviet for the EBN. And this Kazannik said that in his student years, after Khrushchev's indiscriminate rehabilitation of the "innocently repressed", they, the students of the law faculty, were given these cases so that they could find the reasons for the rehabilitation. And Kazannik told with horror that the absolute majority of cases had no reasons for rehabilitation. Here they began to consider lists, only lists for rehabilitation, without consideration.
                      experience has shown that the social danger posed by SV

                      Estessno, represented a tremendous danger to the bourgeoisie, criminals and traitors.
                      And you read less "Ogonyok" 1988, more than 30 years have passed! hi
                    6. DrEng527
                      DrEng527 8 August 2020 09: 18 New
                      -5
                      Quote: Aviator_
                      only lists for rehabilitation, without consideration.

                      The funny thing is that you do not understand that this is an argument against the SV - repression and rehabilitation was not according to the law - this is the essence of this power - lawlessness ... request
                      Quote: Aviator_
                      that the vast majority of cases had no reasons for rehabilitation.

                      leaders - of course, criminals and bandits were at the head hi so about the Red Army - Mishka Yaponchik - the regiment commander, Kotovsky or Kochubei - brigade commander, etc. angry
                      Quote: Aviator_
                      a great danger to the bourgeoisie, criminals and traitors.

                      here - here - we divide people in the country ... bully
                      Let me remind you that the IVS led the racketeering and robbery of banks, the VIL gave independence to Finland with the Vyborg province, then slaughtered the lands of the Balts, concluded a "obscene" peace, etc. etc. - i.e. criminals and traitors request
                      Quote: Aviator_
                      You read "Ogonyok" of 1988 less,

                      1) do not give advice and you will not be sent hi
                      2) you about yourself - noticeably, also voted for EBN - forgot? bully
                    7. Aviator_
                      Aviator_ 8 August 2020 11: 45 New
                      +3
                      1) About voting for EBN - well, you shouldn't be so substituted, if he ran for the USSR Armed Forces with his populism against Gorby, it still made sense, and he climbed into a subordinate structure - the RSFSR Armed Forces, which then contributed to the collapse of the country. But there were more housewives who voted not with their heads, but with other parts of their bodies.
                      2) Throw out the "Spark" of the times of Korotich, do not make readers laugh.
                      3) I wanted to send you - yes, I see that you never left there.
                    8. DrEng527
                      DrEng527 8 August 2020 18: 15 New
                      0
                      Quote: Aviator_
                      About voting for EBNa - well, you shouldn't be so substituted,

                      if wrong - sorry, but very similar in thoughts hi
                      Quote: Aviator_
                      if he ran for the USSR Armed Forces with his populism against Gorby,

                      so you were a teenager then? - "On March 26, 1989, Yeltsin was elected People's Deputy of the USSR in the national-territorial district No. 1" ... now you know hi
                      Quote: Aviator_
                      2) Throw out the "Spark" of the times of Korotich, do not make readers laugh.

                      I understand that in fact you have nothing to say? switched to sketches? bully
                      Quote: Aviator_
                      3) I wanted to send you - yes, I see that you never left there.

                      you are illiterate for a discussion with me, see. about EBN bully
                2. georgiigennadievitch
                  georgiigennadievitch 8 August 2020 15: 09 New
                  +2
                  How smart you are ... It happened in different ways. My grandfather was imprisoned in 1937, all the acquaintances immediately turned away. The family had nothing to live on; they were interrupted by odd jobs. A year later, he was released with the wording “in view of the lack of evidence.” And his biography and further life was ruined. Well, there would be no innocent, otherwise no evidence was found. Some kind of ambiguity. Like that there would be a person, but there is an article. The fact that you are still not convicted and at large is not your merit, but our flaw. And what did he do for a year?
                3. IS-80_RVGK2
                  IS-80_RVGK2 14 August 2020 08: 05 New
                  -1
                  And on this basis, we can immediately conclude that everything is wrong and the government is shit and the people are shit and the country is shit. She does not follow the logic.
            2. Alexander Greene
              Alexander Greene 8 August 2020 11: 25 New
              0
              Quote: DrEng527
              you are funny, in the 30s these cases were considered 3, usually in lists

              Troikas had the right to give a term of no more than 5 years.
            3. DrEng527
              DrEng527 8 August 2020 18: 21 New
              +1
              Quote: Alexander Green
              Troikas had the right to give a term of no more than 5 years.

              you are mistaken: "Troikas of the NKVD of the USSR carried out their activities in accordance with the Operational Order of the People's Commissar of Internal Affairs of the USSR No. 30 dated July 1937, 00447" On the operation to repress former kulaks, criminals and other anti-Soviet elements "as part of the head of the NKVD of the USSR for the republic (region , region), the secretary of the regional committee of the CPSU (b) and the prosecutor of the republic (region, region); had the right to sentence arrested persons to execution, as well as imprisonment in camps or prisons for a term of 8 to 10 years. " and confused with the Special Meeting under the NKVD, hi
            4. Alexander Greene
              Alexander Greene 9 August 2020 15: 40 New
              -2
              Quote: DrEng527
              "Troikas of the NKVD of the USSR carried out their activities in accordance with the Operational Order of the People's Commissar of Internal Affairs of the USSR dated July 30, 1937 No. 00447" On the operation to repress former kulaks, criminals and other anti-Soviet elements "

              This is an elementary fake.
            5. DrEng527
              DrEng527 9 August 2020 15: 50 New
              -1
              Quote: Alexander Green
              This is an elementary fake.

              can you believe request
            6. Alexander Greene
              Alexander Greene 9 August 2020 15: 56 New
              -1
              After what the Khrushchevs, Gobapchovs, and Yakovlevs threw in the enemies of the Soviet power, I no longer believe our archives. Already so many fakes by Ilyukhin, Mukhin and Balaev have been exposed, including this one.
            7. Alexander Greene
              Alexander Greene 9 August 2020 17: 31 New
              -2
              About what triplets are.
              “On May 27, 1935, an order of the leadership of the NKVD of the USSR No. 00192 appeared on the organization of“ troikas ”as part of territorial directorates to consider cases“ on criminal and declassified elements and on persistent violators of the provisions on passports. ” "Troikas" could make decisions on exile, expulsion from the USSR and imprisonment in forced labor camps for up to 5 years. The order prescribed: "The removal of the criminal and declassified element should be carried out on a daily basis and thoroughly, but without unnecessary haste, carefully studying all the circumstances of each case under consideration." (Party organizations and organs of the NKVD during the period of mass political repressions of the 1930s: On materials from the regions of the Upper Volga region. Dissertation. S.V. Kudryavtsev, Candidate of Historical Sciences)
    3. DrEng527
      DrEng527 8 August 2020 18: 23 New
      +1
      So for information: "From October 1, 1936 to November 1, 1938, the organs of the NKVD of the USSR arrested 1 people. Including 565 people were arrested by order of the NKVD No. 041. During this time, 00447 people were convicted, of which 702 656 people, that is - 1%, were shot ["
  • DrEng527
    DrEng527 7 August 2020 21: 18 New
    -5
    Quote: Mavrikiy
    and Russophobe

    Russophobes are Bolsheviks, however K. Marx too request
    1. IS-80_RVGK2
      IS-80_RVGK2 14 August 2020 08: 08 New
      -2
      Kaneshna. We trust you. The filthy non-Polzhivtsy who drove the country into the holy 90s cannot lie to us.
      1. DrEng527
        DrEng527 16 August 2020 16: 24 New
        +1
        Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
        Can't the filthy non-Polzhivtsy who drove the country into the holy 90s

        the country was driven there by the communists, just like in 1917 request
        1. IS-80_RVGK2
          IS-80_RVGK2 16 August 2020 19: 50 New
          -2
          And you say you know history? You do not know nichrome snotty fascist.
          1. DrEng527
            DrEng527 17 August 2020 15: 05 New
            +1
            Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
            And you say you know history? You do not know nichrome snotty fascist.

            I do not speak, but I know! You are an ignoramus and a demagogue! And it looks like a teenager bully
            1. IS-80_RVGK2
              IS-80_RVGK2 17 August 2020 22: 00 New
              -2
              What can you know? You don’t know or understand shit. All your supposed knowledge of history is a fabulous interpretation of the facts of a lousy ambitious worthless cattle intellectual. The one who is not the brain of the nation.
            2. DrEng527
              DrEng527 18 August 2020 23: 01 New
              0
              Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
              lousy ambitious worthless cattle. The one who is not the brain of the nation.

              I am not an intellectual, I have a profession ... bully and you are no one to call you ... boring and stupid request
            3. IS-80_RVGK2
              IS-80_RVGK2 19 August 2020 15: 00 New
              -2
              Quote: DrEng527
              I am not an intellectual, I have a profession ...

              Is it such a profession to write all sorts of nonsense in the comments?
            4. DrEng527
              DrEng527 19 August 2020 15: 17 New
              +2
              Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
              Is it such a profession to write all sorts of nonsense in the comments?

              this is your path, you have neither knowledge nor convictions ... so a scoop without the experience of life in the USSR bully
            5. IS-80_RVGK2
              IS-80_RVGK2 19 August 2020 18: 27 New
              -3
              Knowledge of what? What is considered knowledge in your sect of lop-eared schoolotrons?
            6. DrEng527
              DrEng527 20 August 2020 16: 37 New
              +1
              Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
              Knowledge of what? What is considered knowledge in your sect of lop-eared schoolotrons?

              flood and insults went - it means that pride was hurt ... request calm down, against my background you will always be an illiterate demagogue, this is a given ... bully good luck!
            7. IS-80_RVGK2
              IS-80_RVGK2 20 August 2020 23: 45 New
              -3
              More pathos. She is so shkolota. You can pout further. Until you burst. laughing
  • Astra wild
    Astra wild 7 August 2020 16: 29 New
    +4
    Olgovich, you contradict yourself: Redneck and Dybenko are bad, you must declare that you must believe the court's verdict, and now you say that they have been rehabilitated. So they are white and fluffy?
    Please make up your mind, but until you decide, then shut up
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 8 August 2020 09: 20 New
      -6
      Quote: Astra wild
      Olgovich, you contradict yourself: Redneck and Dybenko are bad, you must declare that you must believe the court's verdict, and now you say that they have been rehabilitated. So they are white and fluffy?
      Please make up your mind, but until you decide, then shut up

      Shirshe, shirshe need to look at things, uv. Astra: the aforementioned persons and the so-called decisions of the "court" of 1937-38 are disgusting, and there are no contradictions here: the bad ones created, of course, bad things, the victims of which they themselves fell.

      But even within the framework of that bad, those wild accusations were too much, which was recognized by rehabilitation.

      Everything is logical
  • Free wind
    Free wind 7 August 2020 07: 04 New
    +6
    Causes hatred, the striving of the whites to destroy the working people at any cost. Excellent Russian aviation, almost entirely consisted of English, French and you will not believe, German pilots. German pilots captured on the western front, white emissaries, were asked to fight in Russia. Pay attention to the tunic and shorts with knee-highs, the valiant Russian pilot. The white reptile had to be destroyed, and our great-grandfathers did it.
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 7 August 2020 08: 12 New
      -7
      Quote: Free Wind
      Causes hatred, the striving of the whites to destroy the working people at any cost.

      belay And who will be exploited and who will profit from if it is destroyed? Where is the logic? request
      Quote: Free Wind
      Excellent Russian aviation, almost entirely consisted of English, French and you will not believe, German pilots.

      Show the English, French and you will not believe, German pilots from General Tkachev in the events mentioned, and not empty chatter lol
      Quote: Free Wind
      the reptile had to be destroyed, and our great-grandfathers did it.

      Nope herself rotted and exhausted itself very quickly (by historical standards) without any effort from the outside - with the complete indifference of her admirers.
      1. Free wind
        Free wind 7 August 2020 08: 47 New
        0
        Where will the pilots come from if the majority were knocked out in the fire of the First World War, and the rest went over to the side of the Red Army. Okay, teaching to fly is not a big problem, but where is it? And on what, how many training plans were purchased? And who will service and repair? For all the simplicity and absurdity of the designs, after all, they crumbled at once. Look at the pilot's uniform, in any case, the Russian military will not wear it. Pilots and personnel were hired abroad. Maybe they were called instructors, but in history there were many advisers and instructors ... The fuel for the planes was gasoline mixed with castor oil lol , Imagine if the technician goes too far with the oil then? The pilot will shit so much in flight that the plane will crash from overload. wassat .
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 7 August 2020 09: 07 New
          -7
          Quote: Free Wind
          Where will the pilots come from if the majority were knocked out in the fire of the First World War, and the rest went over to the side of the Red Army.

          1. Nonsense. Russian ASY Tkachev, Kazakov, S.A. Boyno-Rodzevich, Sergievsky, Shebalin, Kovanko, Hartman, etc., etc. to help you.

          2. Proofs of the participation of the English, French and German pilots with General Tkachev in the mentioned events (and not empty chatter) -You could not present.
          As expected, and so on.
          1. Free wind
            Free wind 7 August 2020 09: 54 New
            0
            Naturally, I cannot imagine the French flyers, for some reason they died before they reached today. Evidence, read only. I have not heard of this Tkachev. I suppose he might be standing in knee-highs and a tunic in front of the Wrangel.
            1. Ryazan87
              Ryazan87 7 August 2020 11: 54 New
              +5
              Why do you write something that you do not understand at all?
              It's just a shame not to know about Tkachev - one of the most prominent Russian pilots of the Great War. Or the same Alexander Kazakov - the best Russian ace of the First World War (17 personal victories), also fought with whites.
              1. Dr. Frankenstucker
                Dr. Frankenstucker 7 August 2020 12: 50 New
                +3
                Why do you write something that you do not understand at all?


                Moreover, he, flaunting his ignorance, will be strenuously plus for pathos. You, who dared to treat Tkachev, Kazakov and others like that with reverence, will actively minus. What is the root of this paradox? Atavism?
            2. Dr. Frankenstucker
              Dr. Frankenstucker 7 August 2020 12: 17 New
              +2
              Quote: Free Wind
              I have not heard of this Tkachev. I suppose maybe he is standing in knee-highs and a tunic in front of the Wrangel.

              I wonder how
              Quote: Free Wind
              Evidence, read only.

              Interesting reading, in which about "entirely English, French and German pilots", and not a word about Tkachev. What an ideologically correct literature) And meanwhile it was precisely the weavers at 13 De Havilands D.9 who fought the Redneck's cavalry three times.
              The white reptile had to be destroyed, and our great-grandfathers did it.

              and this is absolutely extravaganza - some "our grandfathers" enthusiastically slaughtered other "our grandfathers", and the granddaughter of this massacre happily applauds. At the same time, he has a passport with a two-headed eagle and a tricolor on the license plate. Funny sur.
              By the way - here is a memorial plaque in Krasnodar in memory of Tkachev.
          2. Free wind
            Free wind 7 August 2020 15: 28 New
            0
            Honestly, thanks to you, I read about the last years of Wrangel's life. Well, the guy is of course dodgy, here and there, he will live. I was struck by the congratulations - a message from Wrangel to the Russian officers, January 1, 1928. Excerpts. Russia has been replaced by a tri-series, but Russia is alive and it will not die, WHILE THE FIGHT WITH THE BOLSHEVIKS IN THE HOMELAND CONTINUES, WHILE THERE ARE ARMY ABROAD READY TO HELP US. Here is such a patriot, stake in his mouth.
            1. Dr. Frankenstucker
              Dr. Frankenstucker 7 August 2020 16: 32 New
              +2
              Well, Tkachev was tied by SMERSH in Yugoslavia, and he chopped off his ten, if that would console you.
            2. Astra wild
              Astra wild 7 August 2020 18: 57 New
              +1
              I'll tell you more: Tkachev is an honorary resident of Krasnodar.
              As one of the first Russian pilots, he was given a separate apartment. It happened 60 years ago!
              A convinced enemy of Soviet power gets a separate apartment, and the people who built the Soviet Union lived in barracks!
              When I found out about it, I was shocked: how is it possible!
              1. Ryazan87
                Ryazan87 7 August 2020 19: 53 New
                +2
                I'll tell you more: Tkachev is an honorary resident of Krasnodar.
                As one of the first Russian pilots, he was given a separate apartment. It happened 60 years ago!

                Tkachev was given 10 years in the camps, and not a separate apartment:
                "Convicted by the CCO at the USSR Ministry of State Security, as a former white general, an active participant in the White movement in the south of Soviet Russia, an enemy of the people and a German spy for 10 years in the labor camp (08.1945).: He served his term in SibLag, OzerLag, and the camp branch of the Mordovian SSR.
                05.02.1955/XNUMX/XNUMX was released without the right to reside in major cities of the USSR.
                He lived in the Krasnodar Territory, in the city of Krasnodar, with his niece. He worked in an artel of disabled people named after IN AND. Chapaeva as a bookbinder. "
                The memorial plaque was opened only on September 23, 1995 ...
                1. Astra wild
                  Astra wild 7 August 2020 20: 08 New
                  +1
                  I know about the board. He was given a separate room after 1955. I can't say more precisely.
                  I learned that he was an enemy of the Soviet regime relatively recently, and that he, as one of the first pilots of WWII, was given a room. I read it back in the late 80s. It seems at Bardadim
          3. Aviator_
            Aviator_ 7 August 2020 20: 30 New
            +2
            I forgot the ace of the PMV Efimov Mikhail Nikiforovich, the first Russian aviator who received a pilot's certificate from the hands of Farman himself in 1909, from the very beginning of the Civil War, fought on the side of the Reds and was killed by the Whites in Odessa on August 11, 1919.
            1. Ryazan87
              Ryazan87 10 August 2020 11: 14 New
              0
              As regards Efimov, the situation with the number of aerial victories is unclear. If you have data, please share.
        2. Ryazan87
          Ryazan87 7 August 2020 12: 37 New
          +6
          Where will the pilots come from if the majority were knocked out in the fire of the First World War, and the rest went over to the side of the Red Army.

          Ok, let's go, at least for the most effective Russian pilots of the First World War:
          1. Alexander Kazakov, from the nobility (17 victories) - fought in the Northern White Army;
          2. Vasily Yanchenko, from the bourgeoisie (16 victories) - aviation of the Armed Forces of South Russia;
          3. Pavel Argeev, from the family of a steamship mechanic (15 victories) - did not participate in the Civil War (emigrated);
          4. Ivan Smirnov, from the peasants (12 victories) - Aviation of the Armed Forces of South Russia.
          5. Grigory Suk, an honorary citizen (12 victories) - died in November 1917.
          6. Boris Sergievsky, from the nobility (11 victories) - aviation of the North-Western Army.
          7. Ivan Loiko, from the peasants (10 victories) - aviation of the Armed Forces of South Russia (by the way, he personally participated in the defeat of the Redneck's group);
          8. Evgraf Kruten, of the nobility (10 victories), died in June 1917.
          9. Donat Makiyonok, and the peasants (9 victories) - in 1920 in the ranks of the Polish army.
          10. Vladimir Strzhizhevsky, from the nobility (9 victories) - deserted from the Red Army, served in the aviation of the AFYUR (participated in the defeat of the Redneck corps);
          11. Ivan Orlov, nobleman (7 victories) - died in June 1917.
          12. Alexander Pishvanov, from the Cossacks (6 victories) - Aviation of the Armed Forces of South Russia.
          Okay, teaching to fly is not a big problem, but where is it? And on what, how many training plans were purchased? And who will service and repair?

          So you realized that you have absolutely not read anything on the topic and are engaged in class-correct fantasies?
          Airplanes were mainly purchased abroad (the main centers of aircraft production were in the hands of the Reds) + the use of trophies.

          Next:
          "... In the Armed Forces of the South of Russia there was one Sevastopol Military Aviation School (VAS) for training pilots and aviation-motor courses for observer pilots, the aviation of the Siberian armies had two VASs (Kurgan and Spasskaya). They graduated 41 pilots and 19 pilot-observers. Aviation technical personnel were trained at the courses of the Higher Aviation School and in training teams of aircraft fleets. The Don Army had a specialized aviation school for mechanics. "
          As for the allies, they occasionally supported the whites with aviation, mainly in the North. There was also a mixed formation - the Slavic-British Aviation Corps.
          PC There is a good book - Khairulin MA, Kondratyev VI Voenlets of the lost Empire. Aviation in the Civil War., 2008
          It will be much more useful to read it than to engage in fantasy.
          1. Dr. Frankenstucker
            Dr. Frankenstucker 7 August 2020 12: 57 New
            +2
            empty, you will not convince him. If I read it, I wouldn't carry such a blizzard.
          2. Dr. Frankenstucker
            Dr. Frankenstucker 7 August 2020 14: 08 New
            +4
            There are lists of pilots of the Armed Forces of South Russia as of 1918-1919, collected and compiled by the test pilot and part-time historian of domestic aviation Makhalin. Painstaking work, I must say.
            There are 307 names of Russian pilots.
            If this passionate dreamer had bothered to read at least the flight sheets of, say, the 1st squadron, he would be convinced that he was wrong. However, he could make a stand, for example, on the surname Dessino..... ah, bummer - Boris Nikolayevich ... the lieutenant ... arrived from the Arkhangelsk front ... assigned by order 247 to UNAVI ... laughing
          3. BAI
            BAI 7 August 2020 17: 53 New
            +3
            PC There is a good book - Khairulin MA, Kondratyev VI Voenlets of the lost Empire. Aviation in the Civil War., 2008
            It will be much more useful to read it than to engage in fantasy.

            According to V. Kondratyev and M. Khairullin, only 1918 air battles took place in 10, 1919 in 46, and 1920 in 113. 1918 and 1919 the Reds shot down 1920 planes each (that is, only 4 during the entire war), and the White ones - 9 planes (a total of 2 airplanes during the war, and 3 more Soviet balloons). Two more Red planes were shot down by British interventionists.
            9: 3 in favor of the Red Army.
            1. Dr. Frankenstucker
              Dr. Frankenstucker 7 August 2020 18: 23 New
              0
              Well, by definition, there could not be dog dumps in the spirit of the Western Front. Even during the Great War, they were not in the east, which is already there. Aerial duels were rare and more often ended in "shoot-disperse". The main work is observation, bombing, fighting balloons.
              1. Dr. Frankenstucker
                Dr. Frankenstucker 7 August 2020 18: 48 New
                0
                and, well, communication, of course, and delivery of goods.
          4. BAI
            BAI 7 August 2020 18: 10 New
            +3
            .In the Armed Forces of the South of Russia there was one Sevastopol Military Aviation School (VAS) for training pilots and aviation-motor courses for observer pilots, the aviation of the Siberian armies had two VASs (Kurgan and Spasskaya). They fired 41 pilots and 19 observer pilots. Aviation technical personnel were trained at the HAS courses and in training teams of aircraft fleets. The Don Army had a specialized aviation school for mechanics. "

            This quote, yes the table, from here:
            https://smolbattle.ru/threads/Воздушный-флот-Гражданской-войны.53257/
            Moreover, this article states:
            As a result of these battles, white aviation on all fronts lost 20 aircraft (one in 1918, seven in 1919, 12 in 1920), and shot down only two.

            And Kondratyev and Khairulin have different numbers.
            And why did not the conclusion from this article lead to the above 12 ?:
            Participation in the civil war on the side of the white movement and the subsequent emigration did not reduce the merits of these people to the national aviation.

            And this applies to all White Guards. Only "domestic aviation" should be replaced by "Russia".
            1. Ryazan87
              Ryazan87 7 August 2020 20: 00 New
              +1
              Well, well, next time I will write to you personally in accordance with all the rules of the VAK articles, no question. Samsonov has written an article over there, scrapping pieces from a Shambarov book, I will not become like.
              And why did not the conclusion from this article lead to the above 12 ?:

              Why did you cut the conclusion to match your ideological views? After the sentence you quoted, it also says:
              "..The restoration of our spiritual connection has become the moral duty of descendants today. with compatriots who, as a result of the "great upheavals" of 1917 and the merciless civil war, were forced to seek salvation in a foreign land. The debt of memory requires the return of forgotten names."
              And the conclusion, by the way, in the article is completely different:
              "There are no winners or losers in a civil war. The experience of the participation of the personnel of the air fleet of the Russian army in it is a serious warning to those forces that today are trying to plunge Russia into a civil war."
              Why are you twisting?
          5. Astra wild
            Astra wild 7 August 2020 19: 42 New
            +2
            I will add to your list of famous pilots: Pokrovsky Viktor Loginov in 1916 with Plonsky captured a working Austrian airplane. Perhaps the most bloodthirsty general in the white army
          6. andrew42
            andrew42 8 August 2020 14: 15 New
            +1
            Ryazanets87, Very tasty information. Thank. I just did not understand how the professionalism of the Russian aviators correlates with the "correctness" of the cause of the White Guard groups. Well, they fought, well, for the whites, and? White from this became even whiter and fluffier, and red even redder and meaner?
            1. Ryazan87
              Ryazan87 10 August 2020 11: 20 New
              +2
              This ratio does not exist. My posts related to the Free Wind statement:
              ".. Where will the pilots come from, if the majority were knocked out in the fire of the First World War, and the rest went over to the side of the Red Army. Okay, teaching to fly is not a big problem, but this is where? And on what, how many training aircraft were purchased? And who will serve - repair?"
              This, in my opinion, is an erroneous point of view. Why - he gave arguments.
              I do not enter into political discussions about the correctness of anyone, because I consider it a pointless exercise. I myself have a very clear position in terms of assessing the events of the Civil War, this is enough for me.
          7. Sasha_rulevoy
            Sasha_rulevoy 10 August 2020 07: 42 New
            0
            Quote: Ryazanets87
            Ivan Loiko, from the peasants (10 wins)


            I once knew his grandson Sergei, we sat side by side in neighboring cubes at an engineering firm in Vancouver.
        3. Dr. Frankenstucker
          Dr. Frankenstucker 7 August 2020 12: 44 New
          +4
          Quote: Free Wind
          Pilots and personnel were hired abroad.

          what nonsense to write, they would have read, perhaps, about the actions of the white aviation in the Crimea and Tavria in 1920.
          What charming "English, French and German" surnames:
          captain Bordovsky
          Lieutenant Kudinov
          second lieutenant Ivanov
          Lieutenant Plonsky
          Lieutenant Dobrovolsky
          Second Lieutenant Grechishkin
          Second Lieutenant Shtyrmer ...

          oh yes, if the last surname is embarrassing, then I will note that Vsevolod Ivanovich was a summer man of the Reds, but in 1918 he moved to the Whites and rose to the rank of captain.

          This is only the 1st squadron

          continue lists?

          Give names / ranks for the Don aircraft divisions?
          1. Ryazan87
            Ryazan87 7 August 2020 13: 04 New
            +5
            By the way, Mstislav Plonsky is a famous person. Together with Viktor Pokrovsky (future lieutenant general of the Armed Forces of South Russia), they did the following during the First World War:
            “... on July 15, 1915, while making reconnaissance on an airplane and seeing an Austrian airplane from afar, they caught up with it and, having risen above it, began to fire from Mauser, gradually pressing it to the ground. In turn, our pilots landed next to the enemy, after which, with Mausers in their hands, rushed at the Austrians, who were taken prisoner among two people together with a completely new apparatus of 120 forces of the Aviatic type, with a full equipment. "
            R.S. I don't care about the minuses from all kinds of "ideological" from the high bell tower))
            1. Astra wild
              Astra wild 7 August 2020 20: 12 New
              +2
              I talked about this moment above
          2. rich
            rich 7 August 2020 15: 24 New
            +2
            Alexander Mikhailovich Pishvanov
            a photo.Russian aces of the 1st MV Captain A.A. Kazakov and warrant officer A.M. Pishvanov (right)

            Ensign (Lieutenant VSYUR) Alexander Mikhailovich Pishvanov - Russian military pilot, ace fighter aircraft of the First World War. In the period from March 21 to July 7, 1917, Alexander Pishvanov shot down five enemy aircraft on the Nieuport-21, in the period from 1918 to 1920 - six enemy aircraft. Member of the white movement. \
            Alexander Mikhailovich Pishvanov was born on October 21, 1893 in Novocherkassk. The family, where in addition to Alexander there were 10 children, was engaged in the supply of horses for the cavalry and wheat. Alexander did not want to engage in horse breeding, but he loved to deal with the agricultural machines that were on their farm. As a result, he entered a technical school, where he received the specialty of an engineer. During his studies, Pishvanov became interested in aviation. He made his first flight in 1912, later he was trained at the Odessa Aviation School and in October 1913 received a pilot's diploma, number 190
            Alexander Pishvanov was enlisted immediately after the outbreak of hostilities. As a private in the cavalry, by the summer of 1915, Pishvanov was awarded the St.George Cross of all four degrees. Then he was transferred to aviation and in the fall of 1915 he began his studies at the aviation school in Sevastopol, where he trained on aircraft of the French company "Farman" (French Avions Farman), and from January 28, 1916 on "Voisin" (French Voisin Frères) ... Alexander Pishvanov completed his studies in April 1916 with the rank of non-commissioned officer.
            In early May 1916, Alexander Pishvanov was sent to the 27th Corps Aviation Detachment, where he flew in a two-seater reconnaissance aircraft. On June 11, Pishvanov collided with the German Albatros Flugzeugwerke at an altitude of 2000 meters, and although the victory is unconfirmed, it is believed that this was Alexander's first aerial victory. Two months later, he was sent to Moscow, where he was retrained as a fighter pilot at the flight school. On July 9, Pishvanov qualified to fly on the Nieupora, and on August 7 he was sent to the 10th Fighter Squadron, concentrated at that time near Volyn, the southwestern end of the Eastern Front. Alexander made his first sortie in a Nieuport-9 biplane equipped with a Lewis machine gun on October 2, 1916. In December, the detachment was redeployed to Romania, where it was engaged in patrolling and guarding pontoon bridges across the Danube. By early March 1917, Pishvanov had flown about 50 sorties and had more than 80 flight hours
            On March 21 and 28, 1917, not far from Galati, Alexander shot down two enemy transport planes, after which he was awarded the rank of ensign and awarded the Order of St. Anna, 4th degree. On April 15, Pishvanov, together with a Romanian pilot, shot down another enemy aircraft. On June 26, in a heavy battle with four enemy aircraft, despite a machine gun jammed at the beginning of the battle and grenades thrown from nearby enemy vehicles, Alexander was able to reload the machine gun and, together with two French fighters who arrived in time to help, win another victory, for which he received the Order of St. Stanislaus 3 -th degree. On July 4, Pishvanov took part in five military clashes along the Siret River, and in the last one he shot down the Austro-Hungarian reconnaissance plane "Hansa-Brandenburg CI". Alexander won the last confirmed victory on July 7, when, despite being wounded in the leg, he shot down an enemy reconnaissance aircraft over the river. For this battle he was awarded the Orders of the Officer Order of St. George, 4th degree and St. Vladimir, 4th degree with swords and bow. In addition, on July 9, Pishvanov was awarded the title of military pilot by order of the Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces of Yugoslavia under number 599
            On July 11, 1917, Pishvanov was again wounded: he lost two fingers of his right hand. On September 5, Alexander transferred to the Nieuport-17, which he flew until October. In December, Pishvanov received the rank of lieutenant and was sent to his native Novocherkassk, where he joined the Volunteer Army created as a result of the October Revolution.
            During the summer of 1917, Pishvanov flew a British one-seat fighter "Sopwith Camel", participated in the operations of the 6th Aviation Detachment against the Red Army, and was mentioned in the orders of Lieutenant General Alexander Kutepov. In connection with the beginning of the retreat of the Volunteer Army, by 1920 the 6th Aviation Detachment was redeployed to Grozny, from where Pishvanov and several of his comrades, in order not to be captured by the Bolsheviks, fly to the newly formed independent Georgia, where they join the Georgian army and receive enrollment of the Tiflis automobile company. When the Sovietization of Georgia began in early 1921, Pishvanov fled to Great Britain through Iran. There Alexander briefly works for the Royal Air Force as an instructor pilot.
            In 1926, Alexander Pishvanov emigrated to the United States of America, where he got a job as an aircraft test engineer at the Sikorsky Aircraft Corporation. In 1928, Pishvanov received American citizenship. In 1931 he went to work with his friend, also an emigrant, Alexander Seversky in the Seversky Aircraft Company as a chief pilot. In 1942, Pishvanov helped as a pilot for the Walt Disney Company in the creation of the propaganda film "Victory Through Air Power".
            Alexander Pishvanov died in 1964 in New York.According to the Underhill Society of America, Alexander was married to Thelma Weeks Powell (January 19, 1915 - July 1979), and the wedding took place on October 4, 1963 (in 1975 Thelma Powell became the second woman to serve as President of the Underhill Society of America)
            Awards:
            George cross of all four degrees. with medals (full St George bow)
            Officer's Order of Saint George, 4th degree
            Order of St. Stanislaus 3rd degree.
            Order of St. Stanislaus 4rd degree.
            Order of St. Vladimir, 4th degree with swords and bow.
            Order of St. Anne 4th class with the inscription "For Bravery"
            Golden Georgievsk weapon
            Legion of Honor France
            Knight of the British Empire
            1. Dr. Frankenstucker
              Dr. Frankenstucker 7 August 2020 16: 10 New
              +2
              Quote: Rich
              In December, Pishvanov received the rank of lieutenant and was sent to his native Novocherkassk, where he joined the Volunteer Army created as a result of the October Revolution.

              According to my information, in December 1918, after the Germans left Kharkov, Pishvanov flew to the Dobrarmia, where he was enrolled in the 5th squadron.
              On July 9, Pishvanov was awarded the rank of military pilot by order of the Supreme Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of Yugoslavia under number 599
              On July 11, 1917, Pishvanov was wounded again

              I'm embarrassed to ask: VSYUR in July 1917? What is it like?
              1. rich
                rich 7 August 2020 16: 32 New
                +1
                I'm embarrassed to ask: VSYUR in July 1917? What is it like?

                Thank you for noticing the error. This is a mistake. It's a pity I can't fix it anymore
            2. BAI
              BAI 7 August 2020 18: 14 New
              0
              in the period from 1918 to 1920 - six enemy aircraft.

              False. During the years of the Civil War, the Reds lost only 3 aircraft in air battles.
              1. Dr. Frankenstucker
                Dr. Frankenstucker 7 August 2020 19: 00 New
                0
                Air combat was the exception, not the rule. General Baranov, for example, was very sorry when his Don air unit received from the British mission the Sopvichi Camels (which he called "Kemmels")) - he wrote that they were USELESS for the civil war, tk. single, and therefore not adapted to reconnaissance and bombing. Air battles are not included in the command plans at all. So, I think it is incorrect to apply the measures of the classic air here.
            3. DrEng527
              DrEng527 7 August 2020 22: 30 New
              -1
              not a biography, but an adventure novel hi that's who you need to shoot movies or TV shows
            4. Stirbjorn
              Stirbjorn 8 August 2020 13: 03 New
              -1
              Quote: Rich
              in the period from 1918 to 1920 - six enemy aircraft. Member of the white movement.
              And whom did he shoot down during this time? The first part of his combat path is described in such detail, and why is the second missing?
        4. Dr. Frankenstucker
          Dr. Frankenstucker 7 August 2020 14: 13 New
          +1
          Quote: Free Wind
          Where will the pilots come from if the majority were knocked out in the fire of the First World War, and the rest went over to the side of the Red Army.

          Stop being stupid, dear. There are lists of pilots VSYUR. There are lists of defectors from the RKVVF to whites. There are flight sheets of squadrons. Seek and find.
          1. Free wind
            Free wind 7 August 2020 15: 15 New
            +1
            Explain to me please, be so kind, do not refuse the courtesy, what kind of pilot is reporting to Wrangel? And if not for this photo, I assure you, I would not have looked for anything, but the photo is colorful, I randomly typed in a search engine, "foreign pilots at Wrangel," well, and began to climb out here and there. And so dear, what kind of a pilot in a foreign uniform? ... And the Russian will not wear it.
            1. Dr. Frankenstucker
              Dr. Frankenstucker 7 August 2020 15: 38 New
              +2
              Quote: Free Wind
              And so dear, what kind of a pilot in a foreign uniform? ...

              Englishman. And what is so excited? His shorts? You seem to have been told that in the south there were stationed two KVVS air groups subordinate to the command of the Entente.
              In June 1919, British pilots - Captains Burney, Anderson, Thomson, Smith, Lieutenants Brandon, Bursley, Vaucard, Reynolds, Peiner, Smiss and Morfeld were assigned directly to the squadrons of the ARSUR. And a certain "Mr. Dunkley" (possibly a technical consultant). True, until September 1919, everyone left the active units.
              No one denies the presence in the White Army of flight instructors and pilots from the Entente, in which the White aviators had a fatal shortage. But, however, your statement that the flight personnel of the Armed Forces of South Russia consisted "entirely" of foreigners is, I repeat, complete nonsense. 12 Englishmen out of 307 aviators are far from being "all". It's about nothing at all.
              1. Free wind
                Free wind 7 August 2020 16: 09 New
                -3
                Thank you, just the recognition of this fact that the English were still there is enough for me. And then he is such a saint, a guardian for the king and the fatherland. It is interesting that France, the only country in the world, recognized the white "government" of southern Russia as legitimate. And she supplied the white men with weapons regularly, naturally, and planes. Between the British and the French, there have always been tense relations, to put it mildly. I do not think that an Englishman will teach someone to fly a French plane, his sirish essence will not allow this, even though his allies. Probably the French also sent their instructors, do you agree with me?
                1. Dr. Frankenstucker
                  Dr. Frankenstucker 7 August 2020 16: 20 New
                  +1
                  I don't think an Englishman will teach someone to fly a French plane

                  The 5th squadron of the ARSUR flew to De Haviland DH.9, which the military called "gavilen".
                  And he's quite English.
                2. Dr. Frankenstucker
                  Dr. Frankenstucker 7 August 2020 16: 27 New
                  +3
                  Quote: Free Wind
                  that the British were still

                  and someone said the opposite? To me, too, an open secret. It's weird to read this stuff:
                  Excellent Russian aviation, almost entirely consisted of English, French and you will not believe, German pilots.

                  Your words?
            2. VIP
              VIP 7 August 2020 18: 22 New
              +5
              "Russian will not wear it", in conditions of devastation, so as not to remain naked, put on and not like that.
              And the English uniforms were widespread among both white and red
              1. Dr. Frankenstucker
                Dr. Frankenstucker 7 August 2020 19: 08 New
                +2
                Quote: VIP
                And the English uniforms were widespread among both white and red

                Quite fair.
                Here are the military flights of the Don aircraft detachment Veselovsky and Tikhanovich in the form of an English sample.
                1. Astra wild
                  Astra wild 7 August 2020 20: 33 New
                  +4
                  I remember from school these lines:
                  The uniform is English.
                  Russian shoulder strap
                  Japanese tobacco
                  Ruler of Omsk.
                  I think Japanese tobacco is inserted for rhyme. Tobacco growing in Japan is generally fantastic. Possibly ersatz tobacco made from some dried herbs
                  1. Dr. Frankenstucker
                    Dr. Frankenstucker 7 August 2020 20: 39 New
                    0
                    Yes, I remember this ditty)
                    Fair enough.
    2. BAI
      BAI 7 August 2020 18: 59 New
      +4
      Pay attention to the tunic and shorts with knee-highs, the valiant Russian pilot.

      We have already discussed all this.
  • Stirbjorn
    Stirbjorn 7 August 2020 08: 28 New
    -2
    Quote: Olgovich
    allowing the transfer of Latvian, Estonian mercenaries from the Polish front to the front with Russia.

    Would you like to announce the size of the mercenaries' pay?
    1. Ryazan87
      Ryazan87 7 August 2020 12: 58 New
      +6
      Well, for example, in April-May 1918 an ordinary soldier of the Red International Detachment in Siberia received a salary of 250-300 rubles. a month in gold. Although in the conditions of the Civil War, natural rations were often much more important, and payments were, um, often "spontaneous" in nature.
      However, Latvians and Estonians stand apart - these are regular units of the Red Army, and even with a personnel base from the imperial army. In terms of numbers, they are inferior to the same Hungarians (who fought in the red formations of about 80 thousand people), they were strong precisely because of their "regularity" and national rallying - they could not surrender to captivity, there was nowhere to desert too ..
      1. BAI
        BAI 8 August 2020 00: 26 New
        +1
        Well, for example, in April-May 1918 an ordinary soldier of the red international detachment in Siberia received a salary of 250-300 rubles. a month in gold.

        Well, where did this research come from?
        A.A. Shuvalov Material support of the command staff of the Red Army during the Civil War.

        And if you consider the opinion of another scientist:
        N.I. Shatagin. Organization and construction of the Soviet army in 1918-1920 Ed. USSR Ministry of Defense, M., 1954
        - the payroll of the Red Army on May 20, 1918 (with the sick, wounded, non-combatants, etc.) - 263.000 people;
        - in the semi-spontaneous Red Guard units scattered throughout the country and often without communication with each other - 37.950 people (this includes the first internationalists);
        - in the red partisan detachments of approximately (well, very approximately) 54.000 people. The figure was given for July 1918, and in May it was, for obvious reasons, much different in the smaller direction;
        - 25.000 people in food detachments and in prototypes of CHON.
        Total: 380.730 people. The figure is given without taking into account the units of the veil on the demacration line with the Germans.

        then we see that the internationalists were in semi-spontaneous detachments that had no connection with the central government. What are the salaries there?
        1. BAI
          BAI 8 August 2020 00: 30 New
          +2
          In order not to lose the drawings, I will continue.
          Moreover, if we look at the article "The first Soviet money"
          https://www.monetnik.ru/obuchenie/bonistika/sovznaki-1918-1919/
          then we will see that in 1918 there were officially:

          The May decree of the Council of People's Commissars launched a new line of banknotes in denominations of 1, 3, 5, 10, 25, 50, 100, 250, 500 and 1000 rubles.
          In this case,
          there was an inscription “Credit tickets are exchanged by the State Bank for a gold coin without limiting the amount and are provided with all the property of the State”. And naturally it was the same slyness: private transactions in precious metals were prohibited... All banknotes had a watermark in the form of stripes of denomination numbers.

          What are the rubles in gold? How could the state pay with what it did not have?
  • Astra wild
    Astra wild 7 August 2020 16: 18 New
    +2
    "soon shot" Olgovich, let's be precise: Redneck was shot on July 10, 1938, so it is far from soon.
    Dybenko on July 29, 1938, which again is not soon.
    Now about Dybenko. The site already had material that it was far from "white and fluffy". Please follow the chronology
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 8 August 2020 09: 36 New
      -5
      Quote: Astra wild
      far from soon.
      Dybenko on July 29, 1938, which again is not soon.
      Now about Dybenko. The site already had material that it was far from "white and fluffy". Please follow the chronology

      Are you 20 years less to live - how do you think - too soon or not?

      What is wrong with the chronology-show.
  • BAI
    BAI 7 August 2020 17: 24 New
    -1
    The skillful and beautiful work of the Russian aviation admires

    It has already been discussed - these are the French for hire from Wrangel against the Russian people. A photo with shorts is proof of this.
    1. Ryazan87
      Ryazan87 7 August 2020 20: 14 New
      0
      But Comrade Lenin in a British soldier's uniform:


      It's embarrassing to think that this photo can "confirm".
    2. Dr. Frankenstucker
      Dr. Frankenstucker 7 August 2020 21: 35 New
      0
      Quote: BAI
      It has already been discussed - these are the French for hire from Wrangel against the Russian people.


      there were no "French for hire" among Wrangel's aviators. The only "Frenchman" was Captain E.A. Zmunchilla from the 8th squadron, who arrived in the AFSR after the DMB from the French army in August 1919.
    3. Olgovich
      Olgovich 8 August 2020 09: 35 New
      -5
      Quote: BAI
      It has already been discussed - these are the French for hire from Wrangel against the Russian people.

      the names of the French in the events mentioned, liar-on the table!
  • Bogatyrev
    Bogatyrev 8 August 2020 22: 35 New
    0
    Redneck was shot at 37
  • IS-80_RVGK2
    IS-80_RVGK2 13 August 2020 12: 43 New
    -1
    Clear. That is, the Bolsheviks cannot, but the white ghouls can. Well Olgovich there will never be any reconciliation. Until we multiply you whites by zero. And then so be reconciled. Having drunk to your ghouls rest.
  • azkolt
    azkolt 24 August 2020 22: 41 New
    0
    It's strange that you got minus, but no, not strange. These people are really in the throat, they have stamps in their heads imposed in the Soviet school and they are tenacious. And to read something yourself, neither the strength nor the mind is enough. An interesting fact is when, after another note by Lord Curzon, the Reds, defeated by the Poles, were forced to negotiate in order to drag out time and regroup. And Lenin accepted Litvinov's advice throughout the war of one of the interventionist countries, peacefully living in London, to ask on one condition that ANY English officer be invited to the negotiating table between the Reds and Wrangel, pointing out that NOT A SINGLE WHITE GUARD WILL BEGIN TO DISCUSS THE PROBLEMS OF THE COUNTRY IN THE PRESENCE OF A FOREIGNER. which, however, came true. That is where adherence to principles, comrades sovkodrochery, is not in your leaders, ready for the sake of their power to negotiate even with the devil, and bargaining in the territories of the country and its interests!
  • apro
    apro 7 August 2020 08: 49 New
    0
    Quote: Mavrikiy
    With the defeat of the Polish army in the Kiev region, hopes of joining with them became unrealistic.
    Yes, the Monarchy and the Constituent Assembly united with the Polish self-styledists, in hatred of the Reds. Is it adherence to principles? request

    Let's be honest. It didn't smell like a civil monarchy ... it looked more like military dictatorships.
    The Russians couldn't come to an agreement with the Poles .. their appetites are different.
    1. APIS
      APIS 8 August 2020 17: 50 New
      +1
      In the film "State Border" a detachment of Savinkovites in a Red Army uniform sings "The rumor went around Russia: Nikolai went crazy ..." I did not know earlier that this was a song of the Socialist-Revolutionaries, and it was invented during the 1905 revolution. And with such a song, oddly enough, they would give themselves away.
      They sang the same songs when they served the invaders. And you say Impertsy ...
      1. your1970
        your1970 11 August 2020 06: 34 New
        0
        Songs in the army are sooooo ...
        I was in training in 1988 sang "Soar the falcons with eagles ..." - also the political officer was an imperial when a combatant from collection chose?

        Loyal words
        Quote: APIS
        sings "In Russia, the rumor has gone: Nikolai has gone mad
        - that was enough, the pace was normal, marching ...
  • The leader of the Redskins
    The leader of the Redskins 7 August 2020 06: 59 New
    +1
    Thanks to the author. I have not heard of this page of history. It was interesting to read.
    1. Sergey Oreshin
      Sergey Oreshin 7 August 2020 15: 43 New
      +4
      The author essentially copied and pasted Wikipedia and passed it off as his article. During it, for such, ahem, "scientific creativity", "deuces" were put and nafig kicked out of decent universities, and now they put "likes".
  • svp67
    svp67 7 August 2020 07: 48 New
    +7
    Thank you, I wonder ... It's a pity that yesterday no one remembered about the "attack of the dead" near Osovets ... well, only 105 years have passed ...
    The Cossacks, who were several times inferior in strength, were defeated. The famous Gundorovsky regiment was cut down almost entirely.

    1. Bashkirkhan
      Bashkirkhan 7 August 2020 08: 15 New
      +3
      Quote: svp67
      It's a pity that yesterday no one remembered about the "attack of the dead" near Osovets ... well, only 105 years have passed ...
      The tsar did not provide the soldiers with gas masks.

    2. Varyag_0711
      Varyag_0711 7 August 2020 09: 16 New
      +8
      Especially "touches" the words in the song to Lyuba "Russians are chopping Russians":
      - grandfather, but what did you fight for, what was not in the huts?
      - these so that there are no poor, those so that there are no rich ...

      Was it the whites who fought so that there were no poor ?! What a disgusting lie, the whites fought just so that the poor would never become rich and for the opportunity to continue exploiting these poor.
      In general, Lyuba got sick and became the mouthpiece of the modern government, especially after Rastorguev came to power.
      1. Free wind
        Free wind 7 August 2020 10: 00 New
        -2
        And what did you want from bandos and reketers. Of course they are not, but they diligently classify themselves among all rabble.
      2. Stirbjorn
        Stirbjorn 7 August 2020 10: 54 New
        -5
        Quote: Varyag_0711
        In general, Lyuba got sick and became the mouthpiece of the modern government, especially after Rastorguev came to power.

        well, Putin's favorite band
      3. DrEng527
        DrEng527 7 August 2020 22: 40 New
        -1
        Quote: Varyag_0711
        What a disgusting lie, whites fought so that the poor would never become rich and for the opportunity to continue to exploit these poor.

        Reds won, and then what? Let me remind you - shootings in Crimea, then in Kronstadt, then gases in the Bryansk region, then industrialization, the Industrial Party and Vesna, then collectivization, then famine, then the Great Terror, ... the result is the defeat of 1941 request
        1. Dr. Frankenstucker
          Dr. Frankenstucker 8 August 2020 08: 54 New
          +2
          ... , then gases in the Bryansk region

          In the Tambov region.
          1. DrEng527
            DrEng527 8 August 2020 09: 19 New
            0
            Quote: Dr. Frankenstucker
            In the Tambov region.

            thank you - blundered hi
        2. VIP
          VIP 8 August 2020 12: 30 New
          0
          And after 1941 it was 1945
          1. DrEng527
            DrEng527 8 August 2020 18: 25 New
            +1
            Quote: VIP
            And after 1941 it was 1945

            re-read the IVS toast after the Victory Parade - maybe you will understand ... hi
    3. andrew42
      andrew42 8 August 2020 14: 35 New
      0
      This tragedy has not been eliminated to this day. The point is not set. There is no reconciliation. Conclusions have not been made, and have not been driven into granite for centuries. On the one hand, the elite of tsarist Russia, snickering and divorced from the people, on the other, cunning boys in leather jackets, took 2 parts of the single Russian people to slaughter with each other. This is the essence of the "civil war". And the fault of the first, that is, "different whites" - more. The latter only straddled the "trend". An elite that regards the people only as "grazing cattle" and not as "little brothers" - such a divorced elite is doomed. Sooner or later, "uncles" with "cookies" will come, and this elite will be swept away by the type of "the righteous anger of the people" (well, the people will think so, until a new yoke has settled on their necks). The era of Putin and zaputintsy - we are approaching the new 1905. Almost approached.
      1. Astra wild
        Astra wild 9 August 2020 14: 19 New
        +1
        "The era of Putin and zaputintsy, - approaches the new 1905" a small clarification: among the peasants the tsar's authority remained high in 1914, but is it now too?
        The era of revolution was preceded by the 300-year rule of the Romanovs. And "Putinism" was preceded by the era of socialism, and these are different categories. So your analogy is not entirely appropriate
  • Herman 4223
    Herman 4223 7 August 2020 10: 55 New
    +2
    There is no war worse than civil war.
    Let's hope that such episodes will not be repeated in the future.
    1. apro
      apro 7 August 2020 11: 42 New
      +2
      Quote: Herman 4223
      There is no war worse than civil war.
      Let's hope that such episodes will not be repeated in the future.

      But for some reason they are pushing hard ... and there is no one to stop this process.
      1. Herman 4223
        Herman 4223 7 August 2020 12: 17 New
        +2
        At all times they pushed hard, so it was and so it will be. The main thing is that everything is quiet and peaceful here.
      2. VIP
        VIP 7 August 2020 17: 52 New
        +2
        That's the trouble, that some scum time after time push to civil war
        The civil war is not necessary for the people. ALWAYS and EVERYWHERE THE CIVIL WAR is arranged by the scum who sold their people !!!
  • Operator
    Operator 7 August 2020 12: 30 New
    -2
    The captured Red Army men were recruited into the White Army, the captured Donets and Red Army deserters - into the Red Army. Civil war, however.

    What was Wrangel hoping for after the defeat of his Polish allies and the refusal of the Don Cossacks to raise another uprising against Soviet power (it was obviously incredible to win the war against the RSFSR with scanty forces in Crimea)? So why didn't he immediately capitulate, but pulled the tires until the very storming of the Crimea - fulfilling a foreign order?
    1. Sergey Oreshin
      Sergey Oreshin 7 August 2020 15: 38 New
      0
      Judging by his memoirs, Wrangel hoped for massive peasant-Cossack uprisings in the rear of the Reds, mass desertion from the Red Army, and that the flow of volunteers into the ranks of the Russian Army would grow every month. Actually, Kolchak hoped for the same, starting the offensive in March 19, and Denikin in July 19, and Yudenich and Miller in the fall of 19. However, their hopes were not realized: the scale of the strength of the RFSR was much greater than the white generals imagined.
      1. Operator
        Operator 7 August 2020 19: 50 New
        -1
        Quote: Sergey Oreshin
        Judging by his memoirs, Wrangel hoped for massive peasant-Cossack uprisings in the rear of the Reds, mass desertion from the Red Army

        With such hopes (I would still remember about the Martians) of the 1920 sample, you can safely get a referral to a psychiatric hospital - a complete separation from the reality of the RSFSR.
        1. Ryazan87
          Ryazan87 7 August 2020 20: 21 New
          +2
          Tambov uprising (1920-1921)
          Kronstadt mutiny (1921)
          West Siberian uprising (1921-1922)
          That's right, the largest ...
          Krivosheev, it seems, counted 800 thousand deserters in the Red Army (these are those who could be detained).
          1. Operator
            Operator 7 August 2020 20: 51 New
            -1
            The scale of the uprisings is not the same, and the deserters are pouring from empty to empty (deserter / recruit / deserter / recruit ...)
        2. Sergey Oreshin
          Sergey Oreshin 7 August 2020 23: 07 New
          +2
          How to say. In 1920, anti-Bolshevik peasant uprisings did break out in the RSFSR (in the Tambov province - Antonov, in the Volga region - the "fork uprising", then the Sapozhkov uprising in the summer), in the summer Altai flared up with peasant uprisings. Yes, and the desertion was quite decent: after the Civil War it was established (according to the military prosecutor of the Moscow Military District, Sergei Orlovsky) that in July 1920 alone, 773 Red Army men deserted from the Red Army. These figures were confirmed by S. Olikov, a former employee of the Commission for Combating Desertion. According to him, in July 1920, 444 deserters were detained, and 876 deserters voluntarily returned to service. The fugitives who were caught and who appeared, if they were not classified as malicious and were not sent to the tribunal, were sent to reserve regiments, where replenishment for the front units was formed. And from there, as Olikov reported, in the same July 328, 421 Red Army soldiers deserted again.

          So Wrangel's calculations were not so groundless as it might seem at first glance.
          1. Operator
            Operator 8 August 2020 03: 33 New
            -2
            By 1920, the Red Army and the All-Russian Cheka had accumulated a lot of positive experience in suppressing anti-Bolshevik uprisings (such as hostages), plus the number of participants in the uprisings was several orders of magnitude smaller than the number of loyalists.

            The rank and file of Kolchak's army deserted several times and was recruited again - a standard situation in the Civil War.
            1. Dr. Frankenstucker
              Dr. Frankenstucker 8 August 2020 09: 33 New
              +1
              That is, do you consider hostage and decimation a 'positive experience'? Lord, what can you not hear today from the enlightened adepts of the red terror. As, however, from Bulkokhrust.
              1. Operator
                Operator 8 August 2020 14: 25 New
                -1
                I'm just saying that Wrangel knew a set of effective measures by the Soviet government in wartime against uprisings in the rear and desertion at the front.
            2. Sergey Oreshin
              Sergey Oreshin 8 August 2020 11: 37 New
              +1
              Well, this is how Wrangel reasoned in the spring of the 20th: as the Russian Army advances to the North, the uprisings against the Bolsheviks will intensify, the rebels and deserters will join the ranks of his troops, and at some stage the number of the RA will exceed the number of the Red Army, and then you can go to Moscow.
              We now know that his prediction did not come true, but 100 years ago no one had an afterthought.
              1. Operator
                Operator 8 August 2020 14: 35 New
                -1
                Over the two years of its existence, the Red Army rolled to zero the much larger forces of Kolchak, Denikin, Yudenich, Czechs, Poles and other foreign invaders.

                What kind of astral knowledge was Wrangel guided by when he decided that it would be different with him, and even after two years of military rallying of the Red Army and the mass mobilization of the rank and file and command personnel of the Russian Army (which has three years of WWI experience) in the RSFSR?

                Plus the frenzied popularity of the slogan of Wrangel's opponents "land to the peasants without any ransom" among the overwhelming population / mob reserve of the RSFSR model of 1920.
              2. your1970
                your1970 11 August 2020 08: 25 New
                0
                Quote: Sergey Oreshin
                rebels and deserters will join the ranks of his troops and at some stage the number of the RA will exceed the number of the Red Army

                That is what replenishment HIM army is practically absent and HIS peasants have to mobilize - he did not feel ??? Here and now? How did he decide that something will change?
                1. Sergey Oreshin
                  Sergey Oreshin 12 August 2020 13: 50 New
                  0
                  I felt it, naturally. Therefore, he went to Northern Tavria and the Yekaterinoslav region, because in Crimea he, in fact, could not mobilize anyone, the resource there was exhausted
    2. VIP
      VIP 7 August 2020 17: 45 New
      0
      Hoped at random. Maybe it will carry it, maybe it will dissolve itself.
      1. Sergey Oreshin
        Sergey Oreshin 7 August 2020 19: 30 New
        0
        Not that at random, of course, but all the white generals greatly underestimated both the combat power of the Red Army and the internal reserves of the RSFSR.
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 8 August 2020 10: 48 New
          -3
          Quote: Sergey Oreshin
          the combat power of the Red Army and the internal reserves of the RSFSR.

          What "combat power" (the defeat of small Poland), what "reserves in a COMPLETELY ruined country with MULTI-MILLION deaths from hunger (21-22 g) ?!"
          1. Sergey Oreshin
            Sergey Oreshin 8 August 2020 11: 39 New
            0
            Whatever it was, but the combat power of the Red Army was still enough to utterly defeat the RA. And the RSFSR, after the severe defeats suffered by the Poles and Wrangel in August-September 20th, did not collapse.
            So, as we see, Wrangel was wrong in his predictions.
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 8 August 2020 12: 33 New
              -1
              Quote: Sergey Oreshin
              Whatever it was, but the combat power of the Red Army was still enough to utterly defeat the RA.

              PA-IS and will be, but the opponent is not and will not be.

              So, as we see, Wrangel was NOT mistaken in his predictions.

              And there was no "power" and "reserves" even then, as shown.
  • Dr. Frankenstucker
    Dr. Frankenstucker 7 August 2020 13: 49 New
    +2
    July 10, 1920 Order No. 128 of the Chief of Aviation of the Armed Forces of South Korea:
    “In the period from 15 to 21 June with. The cavalry group of Zhloba, which had broken through our front, was completely eliminated.
    On June 15, Second Lieutenant Baidak with Letnab Captain Baranovsky discovered a large Red Horse group moving towards V. Tokmak. On June 16, several columns of up to 3000 checkers were seen between Chernigovka and Shparrau and attacked by a group of 6 aircraft led by V. l. Colonel Antonov (on this day, the loss of the Reds amounted to 300 horses). On June 18, the squadron under the command of staff captain Shebalin attacked the Red cavalry group near V. Tokmak and Shardau, forcing it to retreat. On June 19, a squadron of aircraft attacked the Red cavalry in the village. Apexandrokron and forced her to flee north. Then, under my command, an air operation was carried out with the aim of assisting our troops in the attack of the Red infantry in the DD. Manuilovka and Nikolaevka. The enemy's infantry group near the village of Manuilovka was completely defeated by reduction, bombing and machine-gun fire and forced to clear this village.
    The panic and frustration of the Reds were so great that the enemy battery, which was trying to hold on to new positions, was knocked off them by one plane drop, and the infantry fled even when signal flares were dropped from the planes. On June 20, after being discovered by air reconnaissance under my leadership, one of the Zhloba cavalry columns near the village of Waldheim was attacked. After the bombing, the Reds rushed into the field in panic. The pilots, having dropped to 50 m, completely defeated this group of Reds with machine-gun fire and bombing, who fled to the east and northeast, often abandoning their horses due to fatigue and running on foot. The whole field was covered with black spots of killed people and horses. Many Reds fled to the houses of the surrounding villages. Almost all of their machine-gun carts and carts were abandoned by the Reds.
    This battle inflicted the final defeat on the cavalry group of the Redneck, which ended up in our deep rear and in this situation - a small number of our cavalry - which could have the most decisive influence on the outcome of the struggle for the possession of Northern Tavria.
    Head of Aviation VSYUR V.L. Major General Tkachev, Sevastopol "

    (note: old style dates)
  • sanya
    sanya 7 August 2020 14: 58 New
    0
    Slashchev was right
    It was necessary to step on Ukraine
    1. Sergey Oreshin
      Sergey Oreshin 7 August 2020 15: 40 New
      -1
      Well, in June-July, the Russian Army just attacked in the Tauride and Yekaterinoslav provinces.
      A fatal mistake, IMHO, was the campaign to the Kuban in August. Here it would really be better to go to the Kherson province, to Odessa and further to the Podolsk province. Although it seems that this plan could only delay the defeat of Wrangel
      1. sanya
        sanya 7 August 2020 16: 46 New
        -3
        Road spoon for dinner
        And a lot depends on the personality of the commander ...
        The main mistake was to give power to Wrangel altogether
        As I understand it, even in 1920 the fate of the Civil War was not yet sealed.
        1. Sergey Oreshin
          Sergey Oreshin 7 August 2020 19: 27 New
          -2
          And who, if not Wrangel, could lead the Armed Forces of South Russia after Denikin's resignation? IMHO, he was one of the most authoritative white generals at the time.
          1. sanya
            sanya 8 August 2020 07: 16 New
            -2
            The one who led in fact - Slashchev
            1. Sergey Oreshin
              Sergey Oreshin 8 August 2020 11: 46 New
              +1
              Slashchev - Are you serious ?? Well, as a divisional, maximum corps commander in the local theater of operations, he was not bad. But, firstly, he did not have experience in commanding large formations (as shown by the summer battles near Kakhovka, when he failed), secondly, he did not have managerial and political experience, and thirdly, he was, hmm, mildly speaking, a very eccentric personality and how he would manage and fight there - who knows.
              My opinion - would have failed much earlier.
              Actually, no one seriously considered Slashchev.
              1. sanya
                sanya 8 August 2020 13: 36 New
                0
                What are you saying?
                In fact, everything was held except for Slashchev in the Crimea
                Near Kakhovka, just Wrangel fell through Slashchev would not go there
                1. azkolt
                  azkolt 25 August 2020 19: 53 New
                  +1
                  At Kakhovka, dear, it was Slashchev, who was there who failed, who was a great specialist in semi-partisan tactics, but he was not ready for trench warfare. He did not conduct reconnaissance, he believed that if the Reds crossed over, he would easily knock them out, how could it be once done in the Crimea. And the Reds took him by surprise, besides, at the headquarters that night they celebrated someone's birthday!
            2. Sasha_rulevoy
              Sasha_rulevoy 10 August 2020 07: 36 New
              +1
              Quote: sanya
              Slashchev


              Trust the army and government to a 30-year-old drug addict?

              In general, the role of the supreme commander is misunderstood. The combat operations were led by Shatilov and the corps commanders on the spot. Wrangel devoted 90% of his official time to land reform, internal political reform, establishing relations with allies, with Poles and Georgians, obtaining military supplies and army logistics. On all four points, Wrangel has solid fives.
        2. Jünger
          Jünger 7 August 2020 21: 37 New
          0
          Quote: sanya
          The main mistake was to give power to Wrangel altogether

          And what was wrong with Wrangel and who could be in his place? The most authoritative general in the Russian army at that time and a politician is not like Denikin.
          1. Sergey Oreshin
            Sergey Oreshin 7 August 2020 23: 13 New
            0
            In rank formally above him was the general from the cavalry Abram Dragomirov, who was known both before WWI, and during WWII, a full general, however. But he still was not a commander in the years of the Civil War, rather, more an administrator.
            Kutepov, of course, had a very good reputation in the VSYUR. But again, IMHO, Wrangel was better known and more authoritative than both Kutepov and Dragomirov. Therefore, in principle, there was nothing strange in the fact that it was he who became Denikin's successor.
            1. sanya
              sanya 8 August 2020 07: 21 New
              -2
              There were no more VSYUR
              They all suffered empty and, at best, sat on ships
              The only thing that was Slashchev's building in Crimea ...
              Well, why was it necessary to give power to Wrangel ?!
          2. sanya
            sanya 8 August 2020 07: 18 New
            0
            Yes, everyone was bad
            Sagged under the allies and as a military leader was bad
            In the end I lost
            1. Sergey Oreshin
              Sergey Oreshin 8 August 2020 11: 49 New
              0
              In fact, on account of Wrangel in the 18-19th years. a bunch of successful operations. From brigade commander to army commander in less than a year - very, very good. His popularity in the AFSR was due precisely to his victories.
              And power was handed over to Wrangel after the arrival of units of the Armed Forces of South Russia in Crimea from Novorossiysk at a meeting of the Military Council of White Commanders.
              Well, there was no alternative to him, objectively. Kutepov was still inferior to him both in popularity and in general talent, and Dragomirov did not claim the supreme power.
            2. Jünger
              Jünger 8 August 2020 20: 22 New
              -2
              Quote: sanya
              Sagged under the allies

              Some kind of nonsense. The allies and their resources were the only guarantee of the victory of the White movement. Naturally, they should have been maximally gratified and promised mountains of gold.
              The alternative is just to get a revolver and put a bullet in your mouth right away.
              1. sanya
                sanya 8 August 2020 21: 28 New
                -1
                Where is the victory ?!
                He sagged, sagged and lost in the end ...
                If you are a military and political leader, you must make the right decisions in a critical situation, and your allies must support you at the same time.
                And if you want to be a prostitute and satisfy clients on whom you "depend" go to Turkey to the panel and do not substitute people
                Therefore, Slashchev, as a successful military leader, should not have transferred power to anyone.
                Because he had the most correct views on how the war should be continued.
                1. Jünger
                  Jünger 8 August 2020 22: 50 New
                  -2
                  Quote: sanya
                  Where is the victory ?!

                  So this is a question for the Entente, not for Wrangel. Once again, it was the allies who could ensure victory. If they decided that the Bolsheviks should be thrown out of the Kremlin, they would have been thrown out in no time. But they decided the opposite and Wrangel could not do anything about it.
                  Nobody could. Both Denikin and Wrangel were not even rooks on the board.
                  Quote: sanya
                  Therefore, Slashchev, as a successful military leader, should not have transferred power to anyone.

                  Well, he was a successful military leader, but ... that's all. And this is not enough. And there is no reason to say that Slashchev would have done better than Wrangel. What kind of a drug addict who as a result passed to the Bolsheviks can be a sane politician?
                  None.
                  1. sanya
                    sanya 8 August 2020 23: 49 New
                    0
                    And why then under the allies sagged if and so and so nothing can be done?
                    Slashchev later went on to cooperate with the Germans who led the Bolsheviks.
                    When in Moscow the British agents began to clean up the German Slashchev was one of the first
                    This is nonsense about a drug addict
                    the Germans fought the entire war on drugs from privates to generals and fought well ...
    2. VIP
      VIP 7 August 2020 17: 20 New
      +3
      Guys, don't you think that after 100 years we are all DOUBLE SMART, and then both paths were seductive and dangerous
  • Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 7 August 2020 15: 30 New
    +4
    Another weak article, in fact an abstract, suitable only for high school.
    It is evident that the author did not work in the archives, did not study the monographs.
    In fact, I just copied and pasted Wikipedia and a couple of popular brochures.
    That's why such articles should be scribbled and published ???!
    1. VIP
      VIP 7 August 2020 17: 16 New
      +2
      There is probably no better author
      1. Sergey Oreshin
        Sergey Oreshin 8 August 2020 11: 50 New
        0
        Or they simply do not print here, because you will look at the degree of hatred and inadequacy of many commentators - and you will decide to publish something on this site
  • VIP
    VIP 7 August 2020 17: 08 New
    +1
    That the Redneck was defeated is nothing surprising: "forewarned - armed" white intelligence found that the cavalry corps was moving. Then you have to be a complete idiot not to prepare
    "They began to bomb the cavalry, Shoot them with pulimet" in the same way, the Germans drove our cavalry in 1941
  • BAI
    BAI 7 August 2020 17: 22 New
    0
    Pursued by planes, rushing between the shock groups of the White Guards, the Redneck's cavalry group was completely defeated. Red units, suffering heavy losses and having lost most of their material, fled in small groups to the east and northeast.

    This text at the beginning of the article is a technical error.
  • BAI
    BAI 7 August 2020 18: 51 New
    +2
    The entire "patriotism" of the White Guard elite is well reflected in Denikin's memoirs:
    1. Kwas
      Kwas 8 August 2020 11: 23 New
      +2
      Exactly! And further. For some reason, foreign troops and instructors fought only on the side of the whites. The people saw this and went to fight against foreign invaders and their accomplices.
      1. Sergey Oreshin
        Sergey Oreshin 8 August 2020 11: 51 New
        0
        For the sake of objectivity, we note that many citizens of foreign states also fought on the side of the Reds - the so-called. "internationalists": from Hungarians and Austrians to Chinese and Indians
        1. Kwas
          Kwas 8 August 2020 12: 10 New
          0
          I agree. But volunteers are one thing, and regular army servicemen, instructors and direct military supplies are quite another.
          1. Sergey Oreshin
            Sergey Oreshin 8 August 2020 21: 11 New
            0
            So after all, many internationalists were servicemen of the regular armies of Germany and Austria-Hungary, who were captured during WWI. And among them there were many qualified soldiers and commanders who became instructors and advisers in parts of the Red Guard and the nascent Red Army.
  • Kwas
    Kwas 7 August 2020 20: 06 New
    +2
    I wonder why people don't ask themselves a question, why did Wrangel get out of the Crimea at all? It's already 1920, Kolchak, Denikin, Yudenich are already in deep ass. There are no hopes of taking Moscow. Raising the Cossacks is a fairy tale for children, even their general uprising (which never happened) will not change the situation. The Poles are in a sense rationalists, their dream is to bite off more from Russia, and it could work out. And who is Wrangel in this situation? Polish servant or Anglo-French puppet. For both, the main thing at that moment was the maximum weakening of Russia. If he were even a little patriot, he would not have put Russian people on both sides of the front, but simply would have established himself in the Crimea, which was possible with his forces. And he would have sent peace proposals to the Reds, trying to organize "Another Russia" in Crimea. And it is very likely, in the midst of the Polish-Soviet war, the Reds would gladly go for it, and in the future they respected the agreements. At the same time, at least some kind of normalization of relations between red and white would significantly reduce future sacrifices. But no, Wrangel and others like him could not even imagine sitting down at the negotiating table with Lenin and the company. Simply because they were not considered human. Apparently, some individual commentators of this site still do not consider the Bolsheviks as people.
    1. Jünger
      Jünger 7 August 2020 21: 35 New
      0
      Quote: Kwas
      And it is very likely, in the midst of the Polish-Soviet war, the Reds would gladly go for it, and in the future they respected the agreements.

      They would not go anywhere and would not observe anything. They would have let them go for a while, perhaps, and then devoured them, as they tried to devour Finland or devoured the Baltic states, which they themselves had previously set free.
      And Wrangel was not a fool to conclude something with the scumbags.
      1. Sergey Oreshin
        Sergey Oreshin 7 August 2020 23: 20 New
        +1
        They wouldn't even be released for a while. Primary sources say eloquently: Wrangel was an infernal evil for Lenin (just like Lenin for Wrangel), with whom no negotiations are possible and one must fight until complete destruction. So even a temporary truce was impossible between them
      2. Kwas
        Kwas 8 August 2020 11: 12 New
        0
        The Reds can be blamed for anything, but not for lack of intelligence. Why fight on two fronts when one can be negotiated? It was then that peace treaties were concluded with Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and then Finland. And these agreements have been fully observed for 20 years. The term "gobble up" about the events of 1940 is incorrect, but this is generally a separate conversation.
        Quote: Junger
        And Wrangel was not a fool to conclude something with the scumbags.

        Which confirms precisely my words that Wrangel did not consider them to be people, like you!
        1. Sergey Oreshin
          Sergey Oreshin 8 August 2020 12: 01 New
          +1
          So I say: read the primary sources, since everything is published. In short, at the end of the 17th year, Lenin unequivocally took a position: with the national separatists (Balts, Finns, Poles, Ukrainians, Georgians, etc.) negotiations and even temporary alliances are possible, with Russian whites (Kaledin, Alekseev , Dutov, Kornilov, Kolchak, Denikin, Yudenich, Miller, Wrangel) - never, only war until they are completely destroyed.
          Whites thought similarly: negotiations and even temporary alliances are possible with national separatists, never with Lenin and Co., only war until they are completely destroyed.

          And Wrangel's summer offensive was simply explained: he simply had nothing to feed the army and civilian refugees with, the resources of Crimea are extremely limited. And the campaign to Northern Tavria and Yekaterinoslavshchina was primarily a campaign for bread, meat, fodder.
          1. azkolt
            azkolt 25 August 2020 20: 02 New
            0
            But the whites never traded in the interests of Russia, unlike the Reds, and they did not go to any alliance with the separatists, even with the Poles, offering to discuss the independence of Poland after the victory. This was one of the reasons why the Poles did not agree to an alliance with Wrangel, and even a lieutenant was their representative at Wrangel's headquarters!
            1. Sergey Oreshin
              Sergey Oreshin 26 August 2020 15: 19 New
              +1
              About "not a single alliance with separatists" I do not agree. They quite cooperated with the Estonians in 1919 against the Reds.
              And Alekseev offered the Georgians an alliance against the Bolsheviks in August 18
        2. Jünger
          Jünger 8 August 2020 20: 16 New
          -2
          Quote: Kwas
          The Reds can be blamed for anything, but not for lack of intelligence.

          They just did not have reason. People professing such a wild ideology and conducting reckless experiments on living people clearly did not rely on reason. We saddled the wave of success and flew on it.
          There was will and determination, but there was no reason. Hence the dreams of a world revolution and the slogans - "Give Warsaw", "Give Berlin".
          Quote: Kwas
          Which confirms precisely my words that Wrangel did not consider them to be people, like you!

          Absolutely.
          1. Sergey Oreshin
            Sergey Oreshin 8 August 2020 21: 15 New
            0
            Well, here I must say that Lenin still understood the obvious truth that socialism in a separate peasant Russia is impossible (October was started in the hope that in a few weeks, at most months, it would receive support from the proletariat of the West) and the only condition for survival RSFSR in a capitalist environment - the creation of "subsidiary" Soviet republics in the developed industrial countries of the West. So the trip to Berlin was strategically justified. Another thing is that due to a number of objective and subjective blunders, even Poland, the Baltic States and Finland could not be Sovietized at that time, not to mention Germany
            1. Jünger
              Jünger 8 August 2020 22: 57 New
              -2
              Quote: Sergey Oreshin
              Well, here I must say that Lenin still understood the obvious truth,

              Ilyich even understood that there would be no revolution during his lifetime, which he was talking about. But fate gave him a gift, gave him a chance. And the Bolsheviks did not miss it - they seized their luck by the tail and firmly believed in themselves, forgetting about the absence of prerequisites.
              Mind aside and flew.
    2. Sergey Oreshin
      Sergey Oreshin 7 August 2020 23: 18 New
      +1
      Have you read any sources on the history of GW? Well, read the memoirs of Wrangel and his associates (from venerable generals to beardless cadets - fortunately, in our time they are published and available for study) - for them the Bolsheviks were an infernal evil, occupiers, traitors to Russia, with whom, in principle, no negotiations are possible. And they all believed that they were saving Russia from the Bolshevik tyranny and occupation and were confident that the people would support them.

      Well, Lenin and Co., essno, would not have concluded any agreements with Wrangel. Again - read the primary sources - Lenin's telegrams to the command of the red units that fought in March-April 20 on the Crimean sector of the front (especially since they were published in Soviet times). There are endless calls to finish off the whites as soon as possible and take Crimea.
      1. Kwas
        Kwas 8 August 2020 11: 19 New
        0
        Quote: Sergey Oreshin
        Well, Lenin and Co., essno, would not have concluded any agreements with Wrangel. Again - read the primary sources - Lenin's telegrams to the command of the red units that fought in March-April 20 on the Crimean sector of the front (especially since they were published in Soviet times). There are endless calls to finish off the whites as soon as possible and take Crimea.

        There the situation is different - the pursuit of Denikin's defeated army. And Lenin and co were fully negotiable. Who, if not Lenin, agreed to direct negotiations with whites on neutral territory (Princes' Islands)? And who refused?
        1. Sergey Oreshin
          Sergey Oreshin 8 August 2020 12: 03 New
          +1
          With the Princes' Islands, everything was simple: Lenin thought like this: the whites would not agree to negotiations, which our propaganda uses. And if they suddenly agree, then we will use the conference to discredit the White movement and the Entente as much as possible and to promote our ideas "to hail and peace." No agreements, essno, the Bolsheviks would not sign
    3. Olgovich
      Olgovich 8 August 2020 11: 00 New
      -4
      Quote: Kwas
      Wrangel and others like him could not even imagine sitting down at the negotiating table with Lenin and company. Just because they were not considered people

      And, as History has shown, they did not believe correctly: there was nothing human in them.
      1. Kwas
        Kwas 8 August 2020 11: 43 New
        0
        So your place is with the "human" Wrangel, who shed rivers of Russian blood for nothing without any benefit to Russia. You know, psychology is very well noted in the film "Two Comrades Served" - kill the Russian (red) so that the bullet does not go to waste.
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 8 August 2020 12: 55 New
          -2
          Quote: Kwas
          So your place is with the "human" Wrangel, who shed rivers of Russian blood for nothing without any benefit to Russia.

          What's wrong with you? belay

          Wrangel, who defended his homeland from the invaders in 1917, mercilessly shed Russian blood already in October 1917 d with a criminal seizure of power, WITHOUT any benefit for Russia. This was done by nonhumans, who flooded Russia with Russian blood for decades.

          You know the Russian Cross, as well as its creators, yes: tens of millions of Ivanovs, Petrovs, Silorovs do not live in this world because of them
          Quote: Kwas
          You know, psychology is very well noted in the film "Two Comrades Served" - kill the Russian (red) so that the bullet does not go to waste.

          belay The Bolsheviks did not associate themselves with the Russians: bring Lenin with the expressions "Russian-Bolshevik"
        2. Jünger
          Jünger 8 August 2020 20: 10 New
          -1
          Quote: Kwas
          You know, psychology is very correctly noted in the film "Two Comrades Served" - kill the Russian (red

          Who is Russian there - Dzhugashvili with Bronstein and their last descendants? These are Mankurt, not Russian.
    4. andrew42
      andrew42 8 August 2020 14: 45 New
      -1
      Great question! - It is obvious that the attack of the Wrangelites from the Crimea is an initial gamble. But ... sponsors are demanding, however. And some of the especially stubborn generals / colonels are not able to accept the obvious - the Russian people have already thrown them into the dustbin of history. The same Denikin bitterly, but realized this in the end. But many in anger, they were not able to realize it.
  • alexey alexeyev_2
    alexey alexeyev_2 7 August 2020 22: 32 New
    -1
    Gospidya !! Well, it’s not clear to all. Everything that Trotsky created was incapable of fighting. Although our most liberal bastard is considered as a model
  • Molot1979
    Molot1979 8 August 2020 08: 06 New
    +3
    The Reds reproach the Latvians and the Chinese, while the Whites can lick with the Polish separatists. Double standarts.
    But this is not the main point. The main thing is the fact that the whites did not manage to replenish the army. Even Don could not be lifted. The people were against them. And the red forces had significantly more, even in spite of the losses.
    1. Sergey Oreshin
      Sergey Oreshin 8 August 2020 12: 06 New
      0
      Rather, the people in Novorossia, on the Don and Kuban are corny tired of the endless war that swept through the villages, villages and towns since the end of the 17th year and did not want to fight. Yes, and there was a lot of male population killed.
      And the Reds drew their resources from Central Great Russia, where there were no hostilities, their mobility resources were immeasurably higher, and the administrative apparatus was more efficient.
  • businessv
    businessv 8 August 2020 20: 29 New
    0
    As a result, Don could not be raised.
    Alexander, thanks for the interesting article! You need to know such pages of the history of our country! smile
    1. Sergey Oreshin
      Sergey Oreshin 8 August 2020 21: 22 New
      +1
      What article is that ?? A couple of paragraphs about Nazarov's landing, which the author simply copied and pasted from Wikipedia (and for some reason added to his essay on the defeat of the Redneck) - an article ?? Yes, for such an "article" during it Mr. Samsonov would have flown out from any decent research institute or university
  • Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 8 August 2020 21: 03 New
    0
    Quote: Operator
    What kind of astral knowledge was Wrangel guided by when he decided that it would be different with him?

    It's hard to say, but he really believed in the spring and summer of the 20th that he could still outplay GV
  • Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 8 August 2020 21: 05 New
    -1
    Quote: Olgovich
    So, as we see, Wrangel was NOT mistaken in his predictions.

    But Wrangel was utterly defeated in November 20th! A well-known fact)) And the Red Army broke it. So your comment is strange
  • Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 8 August 2020 21: 08 New
    0
    Quote: sanya
    Near Kakhovka, just Wrangel fell through Slashchev would not go there

    Exactly exactly 100 years ago, on August 8-9 on the 20th, the Red Army notably piled Slashchev near Kakhovka and created a strategic bridgehead there, for which Wrangel then inserted bream into Slashchev. Slashchev, in fact, did not really organize reconnaissance, did not prepare the proper defense - as a result, he could not fend off a counterattack of the Reds and throw them into the Dnieper, until they had taken a foothold on the bridgehead.
  • Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 8 August 2020 21: 19 New
    +1
    Quote: andrew42
    But ... sponsors are demanding, however.

    It is immediately evident: we have never worked with the primary sources !! In fact, the representatives of Great Britain in the spring of the 20th directly stated to Wrangel that they would NOT support him, recommended starting negotiations with the Bolsheviks and signing an armistice (because British big business wanted to trade with the RSFSR and dreamed of opening the Russian market. And Wrangel had nothing to do with it) that to blame the British for the desire to make profits). And when Wrangel announced that he would nevertheless launch an offensive in Northern Tavria, the British said that they would not provide any assistance to him.
    The French at that time silently shrugged their shoulders and did not incite Wrangel to go to Tavria. They recognized him only at the beginning of August 20, against the background of the RA victories.

    And the campaign, as I have already noted, was due to a simple circumstance: the resources of the Crimea could not feed the army and the civilian refugees who had accumulated in the Crimea. Without Novorossiya, its bread, fodder and meat, Crimea would simply starve to death before the end of summer.
    1. azkolt
      azkolt 25 August 2020 20: 15 New
      0
      But it’s a strange thing, while in the Center of Bolshevik Russia they were dying of hunger and in Moscow and St. Petersburg they were given ration cards for practically blockade rations, and this was for the working people, and there were many who could not find a job because there was no job. And at this time in "Crimea dying of hunger", the price of bread really reached 40-50 thousand rubles, and lard -120 thousand per kilogram, but the average daily wage of a worker was 250 thousand rubles! By Soviet standards, such a life was a fantastic luxury. So there was no smell of hunger, although the region was not really rich. That's just why in rich regions with advice EVERYWHERE, EVERYWHERE! there was hunger!))))))
      1. Sergey Oreshin
        Sergey Oreshin 26 August 2020 15: 21 New
        +1
        But in the spring of 1920, in addition to the troops that crossed from Novorossiysk (and partly from Sochi), quite a lot of civilian refugees from the southern provinces of Great Russia, Little Russia and Novorossia accumulated in Crimea. And the resources of Crimea would not be enough for a long time to feed them all. Therefore, Wrangel began a campaign to Northern Tavria and Yekaterinoslavshchina for bread and meat
  • Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 8 August 2020 23: 43 New
    +1
    Quote: Junger
    And the Bolsheviks did not miss it - they seized their luck by the tail and firmly believed in themselves, forgetting about the absence of prerequisites.

    Yes, but they really counted on a revolution in Germany and Austria-Hungary, and then in France, Great Britain, Italy. In the works of the same Lenin, Bukharin and others in 16-17, there are frequent passages: the Western world is engulfed in a systemic crisis, capitalism will not get out of it, Europe is on the eve of the revolution, etc.
    And they believed that, relatively speaking, "the Russian proletarian will start, the German will support, and the American will finish."
    When it turned out that the communists in 19 could not come to power in Europe (except Hungary, but they could not resist there either), they decided in 20 to push the revolution with the help of the Red Army: they say, as soon as the Red Army enters to Europe - the local proletarians will start the revolution.
    The reality did not confirm their calculations, as we know.
  • Astra wild
    Astra wild 9 August 2020 14: 28 New
    0
    Quote: Sergey Oreshin
    Not that at random, of course, but all the white generals greatly underestimated both the combat power of the Red Army and the internal reserves of the RSFSR.

    Were glad to be deceived. Probably, some of them were well aware when they were younger, but they tried not to think about it.
  • Time traveller
    Time traveller 16 August 2020 10: 57 New
    +1
    Quote: Free Wind
    ... The German pilots captured on the western front, white emissaries, were asked to fight in Russia ...
    As for the German pilots who fought for the white, I would be grateful for the information. But the one-legged Austrian ace, who was captured by the Russian army, was actively used by the Reds in 1920 on the Southern Front. His name is Hans Kish. He was Hungarian by nationality. Among other things, Kish conducted aerial reconnaissance of the White's fortifications on Perekop, so it was possible that he was the prototype of the Red Warlet from "Two Comrades Served". Only then he did not die, but was shot in 1938.
    For some reason, today in Russia they remember and curse only the Hungarians who fought in the Great Patriotic War for Hitler, and they forget about those who fought in the Civil War for Trotsky. And they, very likely, were no less than the British and French who fought for the whites.