Military Review

The victory over Japan was won not by the atomic bomb, but by the Red Army

262
The victory over Japan was won not by the atomic bomb, but by the Red Army

Aerial view of the burning Japanese city of Hiroshima after the atomic bombing


75 years ago, on August 6, 1945, the Americans dropped a 20-kiloton bomb on the Japanese city of Hiroshima. The explosion killed 70 thousand people, another 60 thousand died from wounds, burns and radiation sickness. On August 9, 1945, the second atomic attack on Japan took place: a 21-kiloton bomb was dropped on the city of Nagasaki. 39 thousand people died, 25 thousand people were injured.

The myth of Russian aggression


Nowadays there are several major myths about the atomic bombing. According to Western researchers, the entry of the Soviet Army into the war in the Far East did not play any role in the surrender of the Japanese Empire. She would still have fallen to the blows of the United States. Moscow took part in the war with Japan in order to be among its victors and to snatch its piece in the division of spheres of influence in the Asia-Pacific region. Because of the desire to be in time for this section, Moscow even violated the Non-Aggression Pact concluded between Russia and Japan. That is, the USSR "treacherously attacked Japan."

The decisive factor that forced Japan to lay down weapon, was the use of nuclear weapons by the Americans. At the same time, they close their eyes to the fact that the Japanese government and military command, despite the use of atomic weapons by the United States, were not going to surrender. The Japanese military-political leadership concealed from the people the fact that the Americans were using a new terrible weapon and continued to prepare the country for battle until the "last Japanese". The question of the bombing of Hiroshima was not even brought up to a meeting of the Supreme Council for War Leadership. Washington's warning of August 7, 1945, about its readiness to unleash new atomic strikes on Japan, was perceived as enemy propaganda.

The "party of war" was actively preparing for the enemy invasion of the Japanese islands. Throughout the country, women, children and the elderly were being trained to fight the enemy. Hidden partisan bases were being prepared in the mountains and forests. The creator of the kamikaze suicide squads, deputy chief of the main naval headquarters, Takajiro Onishi, strongly opposed the surrender of the country, declared at a government meeting: "By sacrificing the lives of 20 million Japanese in special attacks, we will achieve an unconditional victory." The main slogan in the empire was "One hundred million will die as one!" It should be noted that the mass casualties among the civilian population did not bother the top Japanese leadership. And the threshold of psychological tolerance for losses among the people themselves was very high. Japan did not surrender by the spring of 1945, although as a result of massive carpet bombing of cities it lost from 500 to 900 thousand people. American aviation simply burned out Japanese cities built mostly of wood. And the fear of atomic weapons took root in society (mainly in the West) later, under the influence of propaganda about the "Russian threat".

Japan had a powerful grouping of ground forces in China, including Manchuria, in Korea. The troops on the mainland retained their combat capability; there was a second military-economic base of the empire here. Therefore, in case of failure in the battle for the Japanese Islands, it was planned to evacuate the imperial family, the top leadership and part of the troops to the mainland and continue the war. In China, Japanese troops could hide behind the Chinese population. That is, atomic strikes against China were impossible.

Thus, atomic strikes fell on cities where there were no large military factories and formations of the Japanese army. Japan's military-industrial potential was not affected by these strikes. These attacks also had no psychological or propaganda significance. The people were loyal to the emperor, the army and the military-political elite were ready to fight to the last Japanese (a similar situation was in the Third Reich). According to the "war party", it is better for the Japanese nation to die with honor, choosing death instead of shameful peace and occupation.


Panorama of the destroyed Japanese city of Hiroshima after the atomic bombing


View of the cloud of the atomic explosion in Nagasaki from a distance of 15 km from Koyaji-Jima

The decisive contribution question


Of course, by the summer of 1945, the Empire of Japan was already doomed. Already in the summer of 1944, the situation had acquired the features of a systemic crisis. The United States and its allies had an overwhelming superiority in the Pacific Ocean and went directly to the Japanese shores (Okinawa). Germany fell, the United States and England could concentrate all their efforts on the Pacific Ocean. The Japanese fleet lost the bulk of its strike capabilities and could only defend limitedly the coast of the Japanese islands. The main personnel of the naval aviation was killed. American strategic aviation bombed the major cities of Japan with almost impunity. The country was cut off from a significant part of the previously occupied lands, deprived of sources of raw materials and food. The country could not protect the remaining communications of the metropolis and with the continent. There was no oil (fuel) for the troops and fleet... The civilian population was starving. The economy could no longer function normally, supply everything necessary for the army, navy and population. Human reserves were at the limit, and already in 1943 students were drafted into the armed forces. Japan could no longer end the war on acceptable terms. Her fall was a matter of time.

However, the struggle could continue for quite some time. The Americans managed to take Okinawa only in March 1945. The Americans planned to land on the island of Kyushu only for November 1945. The American command planned decisive operations for 1946-1947. At the same time, the possible losses in the battle for Japan were estimated quite high, up to a million people.

For the Japanese military and political leadership, the long, stubborn and bloody battle for Japan was the last chance to preserve the regime. It was hoped that Washington and London would not sacrifice hundreds of thousands of soldiers. And they will go to an agreement with Tokyo. As a result, Japan will be able to maintain its internal autonomy, albeit by abandoning all conquests on the mainland. There was a chance that the West would want to use Japan as an anti-Russian foothold (as before), and then some of the positions will be retained: the Kuriles, Sakhalin, Korea and Northeast China. It should be noted that in the conditions of the preparation of the United States and Britain for the third world war with the USSR ("cold war"), such options were quite possible. After all, the war with Japan worsened the military and political capabilities of the West, led by the United States, and Russia used this time to restore and strengthen its positions in the world.

And after the USSR entered the war and the complete defeat of the million-strong Kwantung Army in Manchuria, Japan lost all chances for a more or less favorable peace. Japan has lost a powerful grouping in Northeast China. Its positions were occupied by the Russians. The Japanese lost their sea communications with Korea and China. Our troops cut off the Japanese metropolis from the expeditionary forces in China and in the South Seas, communication with them was carried out through Korea and Manchuria. Only the troops in the metropolis remained under the control of the headquarters. Soviet troops occupied the territory that was the second economic base of the empire. Manchuria and Korea were the raw materials, resource and industrial bases of the empire. In particular, enterprises for the production of synthetic fuels were located in Manchuria. Combined with the energy dependence of the Japanese islands, it was a fatal blow to the military-industrial and energy base of the metropolis.

Japan also lost its "alternate airfield". Manchuria was seen as a place for the evacuation of the imperial family and headquarters. In addition, the entry into the war of the USSR and the rapid advance of the Russians into the depths of Manchuria deprived the Japanese military of the opportunity to use biological weapons against the United States and American troops that would have landed on the Japanese islands. Having received a nuclear strike, the Japanese prepared for a response: the use of weapons of mass destruction. We are talking about the "Unit 731", in which the Japanese military doctors under the command of General Shiro were engaged in the development of bacteriological weapons. The Japanese have made great strides in this area. The Japanese had advanced technology and a large number of ready-made ammunition. Their full-scale use at the front and in the United States itself (for the transfer of weapons of mass destruction there were large submarines - "submarine aircraft carriers") could lead to large losses. Only the rapid advance of Soviet troops to Pingfan County, where Detachment 731 was headquartered, ruined these plans. Most of the laboratories and documentation were destroyed. Most of the Japanese specialists committed suicide. Therefore, Japan was unable to use weapons of mass destruction.

Thus, the entry into the war of the USSR and the defeat of the Kwantung Army deprived Japan of its last chances to drag out the war and for peace without complete surrender. The Japanese empire was left without fuel, steel and rice. The united front of the allies destroyed the hope of playing on the contradictions between the USA and the USSR and concluding a separate peace. Russia's entry into the war in the Far East, which deprived the Japanese of their last means to continue the war, played a more important role than the use of atomic weapons by the United States.


The atomic bomb "Fat Man" dropped from an American B-29 bomber exploded 300 meters above the Nagasaki Valley. "Atomic mushroom" explosion - a column of smoke, hot particles, dust and debris, rose to a height of 20 kilometers
Author:
Photos used:
http://waralbum.ru/
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  1. The comment was deleted.
    1. Varyag_0711
      Varyag_0711 6 August 2020 07: 21 New
      +9
      Excuse me, but what did you want to say with your comment? Apparently the fact that you know how to use the Internet and Wikipedia? request
      1. Nikolai Miracles
        Nikolai Miracles 6 August 2020 18: 12 New
        -12
        The coalition defeated Japan. But each participant pulls the blanket over himself. The Imperial Japanese Army numbered 1945 million 6 thousand soldiers in 100. The Red Army did not even reach these forces, limiting itself to Manchuria with the Kwantung Army of 1 million 320 thousand soldiers.
    2. Bashkirkhan
      Bashkirkhan 6 August 2020 07: 26 New
      21
      The Manchurian offensive is a blitzkrieg in its purest form. Mudanjian, breakthrough of fortified areas on the Big Khingan, landing on Sakhalin, Kuril Islands, in the ports of Korea. The Japanese surrendered when they realized that their defenses were torn to pieces and any resistance was useless.
      Even the most powerful Japanese 47 mm PT gun is of little use against the T-34, only at the bottom of the side, only at a right angle and so that the roller is not hooked. And those with gulkin's nose. After breaking through the tactical defenses, Japan had no chance of stopping the tank armies. There was also no chance to prevent a breakthrough.
      The Soviet army trained on a tiger for 4 years, in this case it was sent to fight with a domestic cat. The fact that this cat had nightmares for the Anglo-Saxons for several years was their personal problems.
      1. NEXUS
        NEXUS 6 August 2020 08: 57 New
        14
        Quote: Bashkirkhan
        The Soviet army trained on a tiger for 4 years, in this case it was sent to fight with a domestic cat.

        That's right. And in the end, in two weeks, they rolled out the samurai, having lost 12 thousand fighters. Well, of course, mattresses on every corner squeal that they defeated the Japs, fighting on the islands. But I laughed for a long time when I read about Operation Cottage ... Yeah ..
      2. Courier
        Courier 6 August 2020 09: 54 New
        -20
        You do not compare land operations with sea operations.

        At sea, 1 on 1, Japan would smear the communists with a thin layer. No chance.
        1. Kronos
          Kronos 6 August 2020 13: 50 New
          +2
          When in 1944-1945? Not
        2. Dr. Frankenstucker
          Dr. Frankenstucker 6 August 2020 16: 36 New
          +7
          Quote: Courier
          On the sea, 1 on 1,

          funny fantasy. Hmm ... in view of the absence of an oceanic and aircraft carrier fleet as such, the USSR could not be a competitor to Japan in the Pacific Ocean. Therefore, to represent the battle for the Philippines in the performance of the Pacific Fleet, or, say, the duel of the cruiser "Kaganovich" with the battleship "Musai" in the Leyte Gulf ..... nuuu, this, damn it, requires a particularly perverse fantasy. wassat
          1. RUnnm
            RUnnm 7 August 2020 07: 43 New
            +2
            For those who like to dream up on the topic "what if ...", let me remind you about the project of ships of the "USSR" series)))) So, you can continue to dream up
        3. NEXUS
          NEXUS 6 August 2020 18: 52 New
          +8
          Quote: Courier
          At sea, 1 on 1, Japan would smear the communists with a thin layer. No chance.

          Exactly? In the ships of the USSR he lost to Japan, but in aviation the Japs at the time of 44-45 years old, smoked, and swallowed. And all their power of the fleet would be very successfully leveled by the aviation of the USSR, as well as by the work of submarines such as Malyutka, etc.
          1. Train
            Train 9 August 2020 20: 48 New
            -4
            If we say to take the fighter aircraft of Japan and the USSR, then we smoke on the sidelines nervously. It is not worth comparing the La-5 with the KI-84. Nakajima La will tear a hot-water bottle. Yes, other fighters could easily wrestle with ours.
            1. Sanichsan
              Sanichsan 13 August 2020 21: 59 New
              -1
              Quote: Zug
              Do not compare the La-5 with the KI-84. Nakajima La will tear like a heating pad. Yes, other fighters could easily fight ours

              dooo .. just something in 1945 Nakajima tore. yes not? didn't you learn history?
              1. Train
                Train 14 August 2020 07: 38 New
                0
                He did not break anywhere and quite flew for himself and they were in Manzhuria. It was lucky that they did not take off there for certain reasons. And so La, with its underpasses, against 4 chances, had zero, especially at 2 stages of the supercharger and with afterburner on methanol
                1. Sanichsan
                  Sanichsan 14 August 2020 19: 53 New
                  -1
                  Quote: Zug
                  He did not break anywhere and quite flew for himself and they were in Manzhuria.

                  right, uee ...
                  Quote: Zug
                  It was lucky that they did not take off there for certain reasons.

                  ha ha ha laughing "if they caught up with us, we would show them !!!" wassat
                  Quote: Zug
                  And so La with its nedopukshki, against 4 chances, had zero, especially at 2 stages of the supercharger and with afterburner on methanol

                  understandable .. one more expert from WWP bully
                  the result is known to all and history does not know the subjunctive mood. Yapas with nakajim were torn off in a month. request without any "would", exclusively in fact.
                  1. Train
                    Train 15 August 2020 08: 44 New
                    0
                    Check out the technical specifications and the opinion of those who flew on CI
                    1. Bad_gr
                      Bad_gr 15 August 2020 09: 44 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Zug
                      Check out the technical specifications and the opinion of those who flew on CI

                      Aren't you interested in the opinion of those who flew on La?
                      1. Train
                        Train 15 August 2020 10: 24 New
                        0
                        Of course, I read them too
                    2. Sanichsan
                      Sanichsan 15 August 2020 09: 54 New
                      -1
                      Quote: Zug
                      Check out the technical specifications and the opinion of those who flew on CI

                      read the history yes "La with its nedopukshki" rolled out not only the KI-84 but also the Me-262 with which this KI did not lie next to it.
                      the logic is striking ... just before the defeat of the Kwantung grouping, they defeated Germany with its Luftwafe armed with Fv-190, and then the Japophiles begin to fantasize about how the KI-84, a dull attempt to copy the Fv-190 within the framework of a weaker economy, would show something there ... not. were not shown. merged in a month like the Papuans. request
                      1. Train
                        Train 15 August 2020 10: 30 New
                        -1
                        The ME262 with this story is nothing more than nonsense. In no reports its destruction is noted. One, or rather there is. As the Me 262 was demolished and then on landing))) And they hammered our Air Force up to 45 years inclusive. Look at the gorbach at your leisure. Kursk how they fought ours and they could not do anything
                      2. Sanichsan
                        Sanichsan 15 August 2020 11: 01 New
                        -1
                        awesome!
                        Quote: Zug
                        And they hammered our Air Force up to the year 45 inclusive.

                        and the red flag for some reason over the Reichstag request
                        Quote: Zug
                        Look at Gorbach at your leisure.

                        in in. look. yes from many fantasies ...
                        Quote: Zug
                        Kursk, how our people were fought and they could not do anything

                        are you generally adequate? not? And what then did the Luftwaffe, together with the Panzerwafe, lose the Battle of Kursk? how did it happen? You won’t win solid victories right up to 45, and for some reason Berlin was taken by the Red Army. how so? belay
                        tore off at the end of yours, and ours fought and won yes
                      3. Train
                        Train 22 August 2020 09: 53 New
                        -1
                        And this is for people who have a head. Gorbach is a leading specialist in Kursk, by air. A man has been digging archives for more than 10 years. But where does he care about you. By the way, from 7 squadrons for 41 years, the Germans for some reason brought it to the west in 1943 3 of them, apparently four were enough
                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ASM61liS7M&t=2s
                        Study, ask.
                      4. Sanichsan
                        Sanichsan 22 August 2020 12: 17 New
                        0
                        Quote: Zug
                        And this is for people who have a head. Gorbach is a leading specialist in Kursk, by air. A man has been digging archives for more than 10 years. But where does he care about you ..

                        Are you planning to hide your own ignorance behind Gorbach's authority? he just tells why the USSR won. but you somehow ignore what he says ... request
                        Quote: Zug
                        By the way, out of 7 squadrons for 41 years, the Germans for some reason brought it to the west in 1943, 3 of them, apparently four were enough

                        and the Kursk Bulge is lost. what did you want to say? that the Germans are stupid? or is your primitive consciousness incapable of passing from fact to analysis of causes?
                      5. Train
                        Train 22 August 2020 12: 19 New
                        0
                        He does not tell why we won, he tells the chronology of events))) And I wanted to say that you are one of those who do not care, won anyway.
                      6. Sanichsan
                        Sanichsan 22 August 2020 12: 28 New
                        0
                        Quote: Zug
                        He does not tell why we won - he tells the chronology of events

                        understandable .. that is, we listen but do not hear.
                        Quote: Zug
                        And I wanted to say that you are one of those who do not care, won anyway.

                        uh not. do not shift your superficial perception and lack of education onto others yes
                      7. Train
                        Train 22 August 2020 12: 36 New
                        0
                        Well, if you have Gorbach, it's fantasies and a flag over the reistag, everything is clear here. Here's an example, a journalist turned to a newspaper near Moscow with her brother, the Germans took a small town from her, our stubbornly resisted, she collected data, who and how long ours put up fierce resistance. Well, just now, she bought a ZhBD of military operations of the German infantry division number N. You, forgive me, I will not voice the document and the division. Well, she asked me to translate it through a friend, my brother and I. Well, at 8 the Germans began to take it town and by 12 noon they took it and a lot of different buns including planes that were loaded on the railway. platforms, but they did not have time to take them out because, following the records of the ZhBD, the Germans simply cut it. There was no resistance, and the museum is awful. And this is me, don't believe everything that is poured on your ears)))
                      8. Sanichsan
                        Sanichsan 22 August 2020 12: 58 New
                        0
                        Quote: Zug
                        Well, if your Gorbach is a fantasy and a flag over the reistag, then everything is clear.

                        no need to misinterpret other people's words. fantasy you have.
                        Quote: Zug
                        And this I mean, don't believe everything that is poured on your ears)))

                        ha ha ha laughing awesome! on the way you decided not to believe Gorbach because noodles? laughing
                        I actually don't believe. I start from the obvious facts, such as the defeat of the Kwantung group in a month and the red flag over the Reichstag. You can talk as much as you like about how the Japanese and Germans had all the best, but this does not change the main historical fact. yes but how we won and why is already a question for study.
                      9. Train
                        Train 22 August 2020 13: 01 New
                        0
                        Well I say, the flag over the Reichstag is the measure of everything ... It's painful ... it's hard ... look at the video, however, Gennady Serov is about cannons. He worked at the Lavochkin plant. I knew the designers ... oh yes, the flag flies over Reichstag.We die Fanne ...
                      10. Sanichsan
                        Sanichsan 22 August 2020 13: 32 New
                        0
                        Quote: Zug
                        Well I say, the flag over the Reichstag is the yardstick for everything ... it's painful ... it's hard ...

                        in ov. very sick ...
                        the flag over the Reichstag is a logical result all the work done. How primitive do you need to be to not understand this? request
                        Quote: Zug
                        look at the video, man, however, Gennady Serov is about guns.

                        my grandfather went through the whole war as a fighter. managed to fly on all fighters used in the USSR during the Second World War. he claimed that the best fighter he flew was the P-39 due to the weight of the salvo. request I did not claim that the ShVAK is the best gun, but it was it that was accepted for production, and it was with the help of it and other Soviet weapons, maybe not the best, that the European and Japanese team was defeated, this is a fact. or have doubts?
    3. Train
      Train 15 August 2020 10: 31 New
      0
      Shvak cannon is not-before-cannon., She drank blood from ours and her lack of equipment is enough
    4. Sanichsan
      Sanichsan 15 August 2020 12: 39 New
      -1
      Quote: Zug
      Shvak cannon is not-before-cannon., She drank blood from ours and her lack of equipment is enough

      better than Japanese rubbish. yes not the best, but quite bearable. by the end of the war, they began to switch to VYa and NS, and they are no worse than the German ones.
      what's wrong with the shells then? I look forward to the bravura reports about German cucumbers bully
    5. Train
      Train 22 August 2020 09: 51 New
      -1
      The Japanese will get something, that's for sure. And the whole range of all calibers. I was too heavy ... The fighters did not pull it. Well, they put on Lagg even then ... a little ...
    6. Sanichsan
      Sanichsan 22 August 2020 12: 24 New
      0
      Quote: Zug
      The Japanese will get it, that's for sure.

      Are you seriously? belay Yapi received an analogue of ShVAK only by the end of the war. everything else is drum trash and copies of good foreign ones from available crappy resources. and cannons with manual loading are generally a masterpiece! wassat
    7. Train
      Train 22 August 2020 12: 28 New
      -1
      Analogue of SHVAK? A projectile weighing 96 grams? And disgusting ballistics?

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eamAga5MjGU&list=PL9ybxsKzafo2jZTK-X7ez8znyeLDAmtaJ

      There, a fighter specialist will tell everything in cycles about "awesome shvaki" and their designer. And how he pushed his useless documentary samples there, and the names are also voiced))) take the trouble to look
    8. Sanichsan
      Sanichsan 22 August 2020 12: 41 New
      0
      Quote: Zug
      Analogue of SHVAK? A projectile weighing 96 grams? And disgusting ballistics?

      Well, in comparison with the German MK 108 ballistics is simply divine. bully
      Quote: Zug
      There, a fighter specialist will tell everything in cycles about "awesome shvaki" and their designer. And how he pushed his useless documentary samples there, and the names are also voiced))) take the trouble to look

      olo boy! what is this stream of consciousness? that it was "pushing through his worthless sample documents"? don't you take on a lot, mommy expert? those people created and won, but you didn’t create anything, but undertook to scoff at Soviet designers. the navel will not come loose?
    9. Train
      Train 22 August 2020 12: 44 New
      0
      MK 108 was never intended for firing at fighters - a lot of honor for wooden rus-plywood. And I don't need to poke, I have such a poke, if I poke on it and die, like that Gogi
    10. Sanichsan
      Sanichsan 22 August 2020 13: 11 New
      0
      Quote: Zug
      MK 108 was never intended for firing at fighters - a lot of honor for a wooden rus-plywood.

      from this, the MK-108 has better ballistics?
      in order for Bf or FW to destroy ShVAK was enough. short queue if not in the know.
      Quote: Zug
      But I don't need to poke, I have such a poke, if I poke on it and die, like that Gogi

      communicate with the boor accordingly. behave yourself, watch what you write, and you will be treated with respect.
    11. Train
      Train 22 August 2020 14: 05 New
      0
      You raise your nose to the top and re-read your scribble, this is about rudeness
    12. Sanichsan
      Sanichsan 22 August 2020 14: 33 New
      0
      Quote: Zug
      And how he pushed his worthless samples-documents there are voiced and surnames too)))

      poke your nose like a kitten? completely lost the coast? if you suddenly forgot, you write about those who are directly related to the victory over fascism, but judging by the place where your "nose" got stuck, you have different heroes request
    13. Train
      Train 22 August 2020 14: 45 New
      0
      Hilariously, to inflate a large-caliber machine gun from a ShKAS, and then give birth to a ShVAK from it. He would have shoved 76 mm shells there. Although ... he wanted to shove a 23 mm shell into his brainchild, but he did not know even then-Shpitalny-that it is impossible to shove unstuffed and shoved unstuffed. But he ruined the life of other designers thoroughly.
    14. Sanichsan
      Sanichsan 22 August 2020 15: 18 New
      0
      Quote: Zug
      Scream-inflate from a ShKAS first a large-caliber machine gun and then give birth to a ShVAK from it.

      about the fact that the cannon, like any equipment, is not taken out of thin air, but produced at the enterprise, you probably do not know. request What is surprising you saw in the fact that the military adopted ShVAK knowing that there is already a waste production of ShKAS, and not some new weapon for which there is no production?
      your mockery looks stupid yes
      Quote: Zug
      But he ruined the life of other designers thoroughly.

      Well, this is what many designers have sinned, to the extent of the availability of the administrative resource. Let me remind you that the rest of the samples at the competition showed no better than ShVAK, so to say that Shpitalny only pushed his product through his connections is a distortion of facts. and then he himself got a hat for his paper art.
      PS
      I got the feeling that you see nothing except paper performance characteristics. such parameters as the complexity of production, the complexity of operation, maintainability, etc., you simply ignore.
    15. Train
      Train 23 August 2020 10: 29 New
      0
      Well, yes, yes, the fact that Shpitalny was throwing a line of paper to the right and left the structure of Volkov Yartsev and others, squealing that his "creations" were being clamped, even after the military wrote that "Your designs are not worked out and do not correspond" That Shvak's blunt-headed projectile could not to the mind until the end of the war with its 96 grams and an initial speed, this is all of course nonsense. The only thing that Shvak was good at was the manufacturability and sophistication of production. With any attempts to work out his gun chambered for 23 mm, he remained far from outsiders and did not Despite all the squeals and friendship with Ilyushin, Coy again scribbled letters to install an experimental batch of Shpitalny's guns on his plane (and knowing that the cannon was threshing floor), nothing came of it. The young masters won. Moreover, Ilyushin himself had "played around" with promises before, It’s surprising that he didn’t go to death. With his non-attack aircraft, which in 1942 the Air Force did not even come close to suit.
    16. Sanichsan
      Sanichsan 23 August 2020 16: 45 New
      0
      Quote: Zug
      Well, yes, yes, the fact that Shpitalny was throwing a line of paper to the right and to the left of the design of Volkov Yartsev and others, screeching that his "creations" were being clamped, even after the military wrote that "Your designs are not worked out and do not correspond"

      squeal here while you are. I already wrote above what kind of slander he got in the head.
      Quote: Zug
      The only thing that Shvak was good at was the manufacturability and sophistication of production.

      Do you know why the SVT was discontinued in 1942? a vivid example of the fact that ease of production was one of the main parameters, only then performance characteristics.
    17. Train
      Train 27 August 2020 14: 56 New
      -1
      Needless to say ... I laugh and cry ... SVT was produced and modernized throughout the war and was also manufactured in an automatic version at the request of the "workers"
    18. Sanichsan
      Sanichsan 27 August 2020 15: 00 New
      0
      and in 1942 it was withdrawn from service ... request causes?
    19. Train
      Train 28 August 2020 19: 05 New
      0
      It was produced until the end of the war or almost until the end.
    20. Sanichsan
      Sanichsan 28 August 2020 19: 24 New
      0
      Quote: Zug
      It was produced until the end of the war or almost until the end.

      are you having trouble reading or understanding? SVT-40 was removed from service in 1942.
      I see that it is useless to ask about the reasons for withdrawing from service ... are you unfamiliar with the fact itself, or are you trying to deny reality?
    21. Train
      Train 28 August 2020 19: 54 New
      0
      Removed but produced. Interesting
    22. Sanichsan
      Sanichsan 28 August 2020 20: 49 New
      0
      so look how much and where they produced after 1942 and what they began to produce where SVT was produced before 1942 request
    23. Train
      Train 28 August 2020 21: 04 New
      0
      Yes, the weapons were removed off. They were supplied to the troops only, it can be seen on requests.
    24. Sanichsan
      Sanichsan 28 August 2020 22: 21 New
      0
      Quote: Zug
      Supplied to the troops only, as seen on request.

      a small amount of. did you find the answer to the question why you did this?
  2. Train
    Train 23 August 2020 12: 03 New
    0
    By the way, the military adopted 20 mm ammunition with a cannon, taking into account that this is a "temporary" solution. And Shpitalny decided to inflate his Shkas first to 12.7 mm and then to 20 mm.
  3. Sanichsan
    Sanichsan 23 August 2020 16: 50 New
    0
    Quote: Zug
    By the way, the military adopted 20 mm ammunition with a gun, taking into account that this is a "temporary" solution.

    but in the end they entered the war with ShKAS and ShVAK. change weapons and upgrade production in the course of defeats at the front and the evacuation of industry? as Miliukov said, "is this stupidity or betrayal?"
  4. Train
    Train 27 August 2020 14: 53 New
    0
    Specify the year when Shvak entered service and when the military considered Shvak a temporary measure
  5. Train
    Train 22 August 2020 12: 29 New
    0
    Japanese trash! In Nakajima, there were 2 30 mm cannons with 60 rounds per barrel in the wings! and 2 20 mm cannons in the motor. Did we have something like that to help?
  • RUnnm
    RUnnm 7 August 2020 07: 37 New
    -4
    Yes, in history you should always operate with subjunctive moods - this is a sign of a professional, yeah, I will know.
  • boris epstein
    boris epstein 7 August 2020 14: 20 New
    +4
    It was precisely because of Japan's imperial greed that the 1-on-1 option was categorically ruled out. By 1945, Japan had already been at war with the United States for 4,5 years and suffered irreparable losses at sea after 1942. Almost the question of Japan's defeat in World War II. has already been filmed. The question was only in terms of surrender and losses of the countries of the anti-Japanese coalition. According to the American Committee of Chiefs of Staff, the defeat of the Japanese ground forces on the islands WITHOUT the participation of the USSR would cost the United States 1,2 million soldiers and officers, which is why Roosevelt asked Stalin to start military operations against Japan in Yalta. As a true ally (unlike the United States and Great Britain), Stalin promised to start hostilities three months after Germany's surrender, and he kept his word.
  • Engineer
    Engineer 6 August 2020 15: 32 New
    -2
    The fact that this cat had nightmares for the Anglo-Saxons for several years was their personal problems.

    This cat for 1941 was quite the size of a tiger. More precisely, even two cats. Sea cat with a tiger and land cat with a leopard. Under the kicks of the Americans, the second shrank to a cat. The Marine just drowned.
    1. Sanichsan
      Sanichsan 13 August 2020 22: 03 New
      0
      Quote: Engineer
      Under the kicks of the Americans, the second shrank to a cat.

      do not tell me about what such mighty kicks are we talking about? are you an hour not about victories over the island garrisons of 10-20 thousand?
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 13 August 2020 22: 40 New
        0
        New Guinea, Philippines, Okinawa
        1. Sanichsan
          Sanichsan 13 August 2020 22: 58 New
          0
          all together about 300k for the period from 1942 to 1945 with the most optimistic estimates and after that on the continent by 1945 more than 1.3 million. some sluggish kicks, especially considering that the navy and army in Japan were quite separate structures, and basically the United States dealt with the navy.
          1. Engineer
            Engineer 13 August 2020 23: 07 New
            0
            total at least 300 thousand irrevocable losses in battles with the Americans. Plus tens of thousands on the Indo-Burmese front. And tens of thousands to rub in China. Irrevocable.
            You recorded the entire Kwantung grouping (and according to the Soviet estimate of 1965) as losses from the actions of the Red Army. Although the vast majority surrendered after surrender. Do you even understand the scale of the lies that you broadcast? Then count one and a half million prisoners after the surrender in the Anglo-American areas. And the same amount in mainland China
            1. Sanichsan
              Sanichsan 13 August 2020 23: 27 New
              0
              Quote: Engineer
              in total at least 300 thousand irrevocable

              ummm .. I did not write about losses, but about the total number. well, OK. there really, the Japanese suffered up to 90% of personnel losses in the end ... for 42-45 ...
              Quote: Engineer
              You recorded the entire Kwantung grouping (and according to the Soviet estimate of 1965) as losses from the actions of the Red Army.

              no, I indicated the number of the defeated group.
              Quote: Engineer
              Although the vast majority surrendered after surrender

              what kind of surrender? The Kwantung faction has not received an order to surrender if you suddenly do not know. from the metropolis gave the order to destroy the documents and portraits of the emperor, and that's all. not a word about surrender. the surrender of units of the Kwantung grouping was an initiative of the army commanders on the spot.
              Quote: Engineer
              Do you even understand the scale of the lies that you broadcast?

              I perfectly understand what kind of lies you are broadcasting. 300000 in 3 years it's like "serious kicks", and 1300000 per month is bullshit. belay shame on you?
              1. Engineer
                Engineer 13 August 2020 23: 29 New
                -1
                The Kwantung faction has not received an order to surrender if you suddenly do not know. from the metropolis gave the order to destroy the documents and portraits of the emperor, and that's all. not a word about surrender. the surrender of units of the Kwantung grouping was an initiative of the army commanders on the spot.

                I have no more questions
  • Dr. Frankenstucker
    Dr. Frankenstucker 6 August 2020 12: 52 New
    +2
    Quote: Nikolai Chudov
    In Manchuria, the Kwantung Army 1 million 320 thousand soldiers (1945)

    what nonsense? Where does such a state come from in KwA? This is with the Korean 17th front and the 5th front on Sakhalin or what? In KVA there were no more than 700 thousand bayonets maximum.
    1. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 6 August 2020 13: 27 New
      +1
      Quote: Dr. Frankenstucker
      Quote: Nikolai Chudov
      In Manchuria, the Kwantung Army 1 million 320 thousand soldiers (1945)

      what nonsense? Where does such a state come from in KwA? This is with the Korean 17th front and the 5th front on Sakhalin or what? In KVA there were no more than 700 thousand bayonets maximum.

      Of these, 200 thousand Manchus - Chinese and representatives of other peoples who inhabited Manchukuo
    2. Nikolai Miracles
      Nikolai Miracles 6 August 2020 18: 48 New
      +3
      In 1941, after the start of the Great Patriotic War, the Kwantung Army, in accordance with the Kantokuen plan approved by the Japanese command, deployed on the Manchu border and in Korea, waiting for a convenient moment to start hostilities against the USSR, depending on the situation on the Soviet-German front. In 1941-1943, 15-16 Japanese divisions with a total strength of about 700 thousand were stationed in Manchuria and Korea. The grouping of Soviet troops opposing them ranged from 32 (703.714 people, 22.06.1941/49,5/1.446.012) to 01.07.1942 (XNUMX people, XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX) calculated divisions.

      By August 9, 1945, the Kwantung Army had in its composition: 1st Front (3rd and 5th Armies), 3rd Front (30th and 44th Armies), 17th Front (34th and the 59th Army), a separate 4th Army, the 2nd and 5th Air Armies, and the Sungarian Flotilla. In addition, the army of Manzhou-go, the army of Menjiang (under the command of Prince Dae Wang), and the Suiyuan Army Group were quickly subordinated to her.

      As part of the Kwantung Army and its subordinate troops, there were 37 infantry and 7 cavalry divisions, 22 infantry, 2 tank and 2 cavalry brigades (a total of 1 million 320 thousand people), 1155 tanks, 6260 guns, 1900 aircraft and 25 warships. The Kwantung Army also possessed bacteriological weapons prepared for use against Soviet troops (see Detachment 731).

      https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%82%D1%83%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%8F
    3. RUnnm
      RUnnm 7 August 2020 07: 40 New
      +3
      All open sources give a figure of 1.3 million. There is no need to talk about a clean state, no one has canceled operational subordination, plus Manchukuo, etc.
      1. Dr. Frankenstucker
        Dr. Frankenstucker 7 August 2020 08: 06 New
        -5
        Dear, he wrote:
        In Manchuria, the Kwantung Army 1 million 320 thousand soldiers (1945)


        let it be determined either with geography, or with the number of groups in Manchuria. Which side is the Garrison Army in Korea or the 5th Front on Karafuto to Manchuria? You will also call KvA "elite" and "the most powerful". About 1900 planes is especially funny, yes.
    4. Sanichsan
      Sanichsan 13 August 2020 22: 06 New
      -1
      Quote: Dr. Frankenstucker
      In KvA there were no more than 700 thousand bayonets maximum.

      Is it you, according to the memorial technique, gazing intently at the ceiling? laughing
      really, what nonsense?
      1. Dr. Frankenstucker
        Dr. Frankenstucker 14 August 2020 08: 55 New
        -1
        Quote: SanichSan
        really, what nonsense?

        glad you agree that the wikipedia numbers are bullshit.
        1. Sanichsan
          Sanichsan 14 August 2020 19: 44 New
          -1
          Quote: Dr. Frankenstucker
          glad you agree that the wikipedia numbers are bullshit.

          a finger stuck in the nose while contemplating the ceiling is an even less reliable source wink don't use it! laughing
          1. Dr. Frankenstucker
            Dr. Frankenstucker 14 August 2020 20: 06 New
            0
            I see, my dear, you broke more than one finger in this manner ... I need your advice unnecessarily, leave it to my classmates. Goodbye, dear.
            1. Sanichsan
              Sanichsan 14 August 2020 20: 10 New
              -1
              Quote: Dr. Frankenstucker
              Goodbye, dear.

              there are no facts, there is a lot of ambition ... well .. run request
  • Nehist
    Nehist 6 August 2020 13: 04 New
    +1
    Wikipedia is another source of information
  • Krasnodar
    Krasnodar 6 August 2020 05: 41 New
    20
    It wasn't the bomb that won. And the fact that the USSR entered the war. Prior to this, the Japanese hoped for Stalin's mediation in negotiations with the West, which would suffer too great losses when landing on the islands. The outbreak of hostilities put an end to these hopes - the Russians could take Japan - the loss of soldiers was not a serious political factor for Stalin, and Hirohito would simply be hanged
    1. Bashkirkhan
      Bashkirkhan 6 August 2020 07: 22 New
      13
      In my opinion, after the bombing of Japan, only 1 of atomic bombs remained :) For 1945, nuclear weapons would have played nothing in battles with Japan. There was simply no stock of it and there was still no capacity for the mass production of weapons-grade materials. I would have to fight with conventional weapons.
      1. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar 6 August 2020 10: 20 New
        +2
        Well, yes, with a nuclear explosion every half a year.
    2. Olgovich
      Olgovich 6 August 2020 07: 28 New
      11
      Quote: Krasnodar
      It wasn't the bomb that won. And the fact that the USSR entered the war

      Yes, the entry of the USSR was the last straw: 9 August Japan found out about this and already 10 August The Japanese government announced through the neutral countries - Sweden and Switzerland that it agrees to accept the terms of the Potsdam Declaration if the allies agree not to include in it a clause on depriving the emperor of sovereign rights.

      What was rejected: only Japan's unconditional surrender, which was done.
    3. Catfish
      Catfish 6 August 2020 14: 39 New
      +2
      Albert, hello and best wishes. hi
      I was always surprised that, despite the political orientations of the disputants, everything always rests only on Hiroshima and the Kwantung Army. As if until the forty-fifth year and there was no war, there was no Midway, no Iwo Jima, no battle in the Coral Sea and other things. Nothing happened until the staff threw a bomb, and ours walked through Manchuria with a steam roller.
      By the way, do you know what state this notorious Kwantung Army was in? After all, the best and efficient units were withdrawn from it during the war and sent to the defense of the islands. And about the Japanese tanks, probably, it's not worth talking about.
      I agree with your opinion on the reason that made Japan surrender - hope for negotiations has disappeared.
      1. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar 6 August 2020 14: 52 New
        -3
        Greetings, Constantine! hi Glad to see on the forum! The remnants of Cold War propaganda - both sides pulled the blanket over themselves in their successes, they did not spread about the contribution of potential opponents to the common Victory, the broad masses of the population were not told anything about it. Personally, I do not consider the bombing of Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki a war crime. Everything that saved the life of at least one Soviet soldier was justified.
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 6 August 2020 15: 01 New
          +1
          Everything that saved the life of at least one Soviet soldier was justified.

          Of course, and therefore it is ridiculous to blame someone for such actions. Just if you imagine for a second that if we had an atomic bomb and it was dropped on Berlin in 45, then how many lives of our soldiers who died during the assault, it would have saved. I would only welcome this, because the survivors would have children, and then these children have grandchildren ... So everything is clear here.
          1. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar 6 August 2020 15: 15 New
            +1
            It would have appeared before the Americans, most likely on some kind of RUR (industry) or Berlin, and they would have thrown it off. At the same time showing the Germans the real Vugderwaflu. wink
        2. not main
          not main 6 August 2020 23: 57 New
          +9
          Quote: Krasnodar
          Personally, I do not consider the bombing of Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki a war crime. Everything that saved the life of at least one Soviet soldier was justified.

          Yes, what are you talking about! And these are "God's chosen"! You should know that Soviet soldiers saved the lives of peaceful (and not so) residents even with their own lives! And Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki is a question for you! (you knowingly)! And compare these monstrous bombings with the Soviet Soldier? This is overly cynicism!
          1. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar 7 August 2020 00: 30 New
            -3
            The life of a Soviet soldier> the lives of all the inhabitants of Dresden during the Third Reich. hi
            1. Doliva63
              Doliva63 7 August 2020 19: 27 New
              +4
              Quote: Krasnodar
              The life of a Soviet soldier> the lives of all the inhabitants of Dresden during the Third Reich. hi

              Here I would argue with you, but, damn it, my father was in that war, I agree. As for Japan, he said it was like a promising first-class athlete and master of sports. Despite the fact that after Europe, deserts and mountains were unusual. But the Japanese had no chance against the Red Army. I think, like the others.
              1. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar 7 August 2020 19: 33 New
                +3
                My grandfather fought against Japan. Apparently, he treated the German soldiers with great respect. He spoke of the Japanese with contempt - they chained their soldiers with a chain by the leg to firing points, kamikaze, etc. Tanks are fig, they didn't know how to use them properly.
                1. Doliva63
                  Doliva63 8 August 2020 21: 16 New
                  +3
                  Quote: Krasnodar
                  My grandfather fought against Japan. Apparently, he treated the German soldiers with great respect. He spoke of the Japanese with contempt - they chained their soldiers with a chain by the leg to firing points, kamikaze, etc. Tanks are fig, they didn't know how to use them properly.

                  By the way, my father said the same thing. And about the attitude towards German soldiers too. And even to the "green SS", as he said. Like, the same soldiers, like us, did not guard the concentration camps. Well, here he had the right, he knew better. Then, when in the 60s he served in the GSVG, one day, at an intersection, a reconnaissance BRDM-2 column and a German column coming from the cemetery collided - his father ordered the machine guns to be covered and the Germans allowed to pass. Those appreciated. Since many Germans worked in the town, they quickly found out who he was. And my father and I once went to a hairdresser's - it was on the territory of the town, but private, German. The owner meets us, expresses happiness that we have come to him, pours cognac for father, for me - a bowl of fruit, suggests not to rush anywhere, to sit for a couple of minutes. They talked, remembered the war - without anger, but as soldiers. Then he asked about that case - why did he do that? My father said something like: we are 2 peoples who suffered in the same war, and I do not want the Germans to think that I threaten them with weapons (a free retelling, but close to the topic). For several years we went to that hairdresser, and every time - cognac, fruit, talk about life. And the same story with the gashtett "At Phillip's" - when the whole family came, we were escorted to the 2nd floor, where the family of the owner, a former Luftwaffe pilot lived, his wife brought dishes, and the owner drank beer with his father and about something talked (I did not listen laughing). When the generation of those veterans died out, the Germans again lost their "scent".
                  1. Krasnodar
                    Krasnodar 8 August 2020 22: 29 New
                    +2
                    They did not lose their scent, after the collapse of the USSR, the Americans stopped paying much attention to the Bundeswehr, the Germans themselves, as much as possible, demilitarized their army, they had only police units that were combat-ready. They are buzzing in unison with the EU against Russia, but within the framework of liberal condemnation ... a fighting spirit, like the Danes in the 40s.
        3. Kwas
          Kwas 8 August 2020 18: 52 New
          +2
          Quote: Krasnodar
          Personally, I do not consider the bombing of Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki a war crime. Everything that saved the life of at least one Soviet soldier was justified.

          There is such a thing - international law. And under international law, these are precisely war crimes.
          And your logic, which puts the life of one soldier at less than a thousand civilians, is a direct reference to the logic of shooting hostages, civilians, depriving the population of food and everything that the Nazis noted in our country. For which they are called non-humans, and punished (whoever they could) following the results of the Nuremberg Tribunal and subsequent trials.
          1. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar 8 August 2020 19: 15 New
            0
            I agree. With one amendment. The war was started not by the USSR or the Allies, therefore the life of an individual Soviet soldier is worth more than the life of the entire population of the city of the aggressor country, in which the power that started the war was chosen democratically yes
            1. Octopus
              Octopus 8 August 2020 20: 43 New
              +1
              Quote: Krasnodar
              The war was started not by the USSR or the Allies

              Do you even know who declared war on whom?
              1. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar 8 August 2020 21: 05 New
                +1
                Germany - the USSR and the States, Japan - the States, the USSR - Japan, 2x2 = 4)).
                1. Octopus
                  Octopus 8 August 2020 22: 47 New
                  0
                  Quote: Krasnodar
                  Germany - the USSR and the States, Japan - the States, the USSR - Japan

                  How interesting. And who bombed German cities?
                  1. Krasnodar
                    Krasnodar 8 August 2020 22: 53 New
                    +1
                    Brita, USA, USSR ... and?
                    1. Liam
                      Liam 8 August 2020 23: 48 New
                      0
                      Quote: Krasnodar
                      Brita, USA, USSR ... and?

                      England and France were the first to declare war on Germany. The US is formally not, but de facto too. hi
                      And the murder of thousands of peaceful people, justified by the life of a soldier, is a direct path to the dock
                      1. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 8 August 2020 23: 59 New
                        +2
                        1) Britain and France are their problems.
                        2) USA ... formally ... ??? Hitler declared war on them immediately after Pearl Harbor, hoping that the Japanese would attack the USSR in response
                        3) In the army, I saw it this way - I am ready to sacrifice my life for the sake of saving one peaceful person from the other side, I am ready to overwhelm a million enemy peacemen for the life of my subordinate / comrade / commander soldier
                      2. Liam
                        Liam 9 August 2020 00: 04 New
                        0
                        Quote: Krasnodar
                        1) Britain and France - their problems

                        And nevertheless, they are the aggressors)
                        Quote: Krasnodar
                        2) USA ... formally ... ??? Hitler declared war on them immediately after Pearl Harbor, hoping that the Japanese would attack the USSR in response

                        This is nothing more than a bearded anecdote from a sovagitprop. Don't put the Fuhrer in such an idiotic light.
                        Quote: Krasnodar
                        3)

                        I'm talking about laws, you are talking about concepts. When laws are replaced by concepts, various bad things happen in all spheres of life.
                      3. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 9 August 2020 00: 08 New
                        +2
                        1) I agree
                        2) So why did he declare war on the States precisely after Pearl Harbor? Was he getting bored with life? laughing
                        3) I agree. I have only the following to say in my defense - history is written by the winners and woe to the vanquished hi
                        PS What's with the Crown? Is there a second wave or calm?
                      4. Liam
                        Liam 9 August 2020 00: 17 New
                        0
                        And what was left for him. By that time, the United States had been waging an undeclared war against Germany for at least 6 months. He simply dotted Yu, using a good reason.
                        About the story that only the winners supposedly write is nothing more than a common stereotype that does not stand up to criticism. This could have been true 2000 years ago. Anyone who wants to can read the story written by the vindicated Napoleon or Manstein.
                        PySy.It seems to be quiet for now. Beach season)
                      5. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 9 August 2020 00: 29 New
                        +2
                        He brought his end closer - Roosevelt was able to calmly tell the Americans that they were fighting along with Germany (the largest ethnic group in the States is the Germans).
                        The history written by Manstein will not be taught in the schools of most of the countries of the former anti-Hitler coalition, which are today the backbone of the Western World. )) But, in my opinion, the Americans did the right thing - if, in order to save at least one of their own and allied citizens (soldiers), they were wiped off the face of the earth:
                        a) Mobilization resource;
                        b) lightly wounded and shell-shocked, ready to return to duty;
                        c) personnel of defense plants, incl. Celsius optics
                        d) railway node
                        P.S. well, glory to Gd
                      6. Liam
                        Liam 9 August 2020 00: 44 New
                        0
                        He did not bring anything closer. The Lend-Lease Law was adopted long before that and the convoys both went before and continued after. And their volume did not depend on German actions, but solely on the mobilization of the American economy. And the US DB against Germany began only a year and a half later if that this was also due exclusively to the mobilization capabilities of the United States itself and not to the actions of Germany. And by officially declaring war, Hitler was at least able to respond with military means to the openly hostile actions of the Americans.
                        By the way, what do you think triggered the war in the Pacific Ocean-PX or the previously imposed American oil embargo against Japan, which drove the latter into a corner and left no other options besides the war.
                        Railway junction, industrial enterprises, etc. are legitimate targets during the war.
                        The history written by Napoleon is studied in all countries - both the victors and the defeated. And the fact that he lost did not prevent him from being recognized as one of the greatest commanders and political figures of the whole world history. Who is Napoleon and what he did everyone knows. Few people remember the names of his winners. even in their own countries, and even more so none of them was even lying around in importance in the eyes of contemporaries and descendants.
                        The memoirs of the same Manstein are also available to everyone and are much better known and readable than the boring memoirs of the entire galaxy of Soviet marshals written by literary blacks from agitprop
                      7. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 9 August 2020 00: 54 New
                        +2
                        Once again - Hitler only made it easier for the leadership of the States - American society was extremely hostile to the Japanese who attacked them, but it was not eager to get into the European thresher. Hitler is a gambler. I decided to raise the stakes as much as possible while slipping near Moscow - this is the point of view not only of the Soviet agitation industry, but also of Western historians (Beaver, Hastings).
                        Pearl Harbor? The Japanese have long wanted to occupy the oil-rich Dutch Indonesia and the territories under French control. Amers' hostile reaction, including the embargo, made them think that the United States would interfere with them militarily. This is not my personal theory - these are the conclusions of British and American historians together with their Japanese colleagues.
                        That's right - but since high-precision weapons were not then, the allies smashed the entire city.
                        We are now talking not about historians, but about:
                        1) Public opinion and the primary education system;
                        2) Bench.
                        It is clear that even now I remember Hanibal, but I do not remember at close range who bent him out of the Romans (Julius Caesar, no?)
                      8. Liam
                        Liam 9 August 2020 01: 06 New
                        +1
                        My speech concerned this statement of yours
                        The war was started not by the USSR or the Allies

                        This is at least controversial, and this is not yet touching upon the exclusively peaceful policy of the USSR and its role in unleashing the war.
                        It's not just the lack of high-precision weapons. Attacking a hospital ship is a crime. Attacking a hospital ship with a machine gun on deck is legal. With cities it's about the same. There are anti-aircraft guns, airports with military aircraft, you can bomb
                      9. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 9 August 2020 01: 27 New
                        +1
                        If we consider the causes of WWII, then this is rather a continuation of the Great War, that is, the consequences of the Versailles Peace and the results of the Civil War in Russia, as well as an attempt to squeeze out Asian colonies by local (Japanese), African - by Italians. The role of the USSR is to wait and improve positions before a total batch. The role of Germany and Italy is the revision of the Versailles Treaty. The role of the old superpowers is to get involved in the war to a minimum and to solve new problems in Europe. The role of the States is to try to influence what is happening in the Pacific Region, keeping isolationism to the maximum. Japan's role is to try to dominate the region by providing itself with a resource base.
                        Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were legitimate targets.
                      10. Octopus
                        Octopus 9 August 2020 02: 37 New
                        +4
                        Quote: Liam
                        There are anti-aircraft guns, airports with military planes - you can bomb

                        Nonsense, and you know that very well. Harris and Churchill aimed neither anti-aircraft guns nor airfields. If LeMay's excuses about the destruction of artisanal workshops in residential buildings look ridiculous, then Harris does not have them either: he purposefully destroyed the peaceful people. That is, he practiced exactly the same principle of collective responsibility as that used in Liditsa, Khatyn, Oradour-sur-Glane. He had an excuse "they started the first", but after primary school age, such an excuse should not save. Especially from the gallows.
                      11. Liam
                        Liam 9 August 2020 08: 30 New
                        +1
                        You can try a comparative analysis. After the war, the Allies tried who was the Luftwaffe for a similar bombing of London from Coventry or Stalingrad?
                        Do not propose the trial of Hartmann)
                      12. Octopus
                        Octopus 9 August 2020 09: 42 New
                        0
                        Quote: Liam
                        who is the thread from the Luftwaffe

                        Goering will suit you?

                        Bad argument. You know that on the main Nuremberg of the backlashes there was one Goering (and an amateur pilot Rust Hess), and you also know that Dönitz and Raeder received terms for much less than the activities of the above-mentioned Victory Marshals. This is leaving out of brackets the activities of the Soviet government in general and the liberation army in particular.

                        And yes, one of the accusations:
                        The aimless destruction of large and small cities and villages, devastation, not justified by military necessity.
                      13. Liam
                        Liam 9 August 2020 10: 31 New
                        +1
                        Goering was tried as the number 2 politician in Germany. For all good things in general. He is taller and much higher than Harris in the hierarchy. I mean the generals and officers of the Luftwaffe who planned directly, determined the goals and methods. I do not remember any of them convicted for this. as if hints that from the point of view of the winners, their actions fit into the outline of the then concepts of admissibility and legality
                    2. Sanichsan
                      Sanichsan 13 August 2020 22: 22 New
                      -1
                      Quote: Liam
                      After the war, the Allies tried who was the Luftwaffe for the similar bombing of London from Coventry or Stalingrad?

                      tried and hanged by the way. have you heard of the fate of Hermann Goering?
                    3. Dr. Frankenstucker
                      Dr. Frankenstucker 14 August 2020 08: 59 New
                      0
                      Quote: SanichSan
                      tried and hanged by the way. have you heard of the fate of Hermann Goering?

                      Have you heard about his fate? Was he hanged in your parallel story?
                    4. Sanichsan
                      Sanichsan 14 August 2020 19: 41 New
                      -1
                      Quote: Dr. Frankenstucker
                      Have you heard about his fate? Was he hanged in your parallel story?

                      eksperd, and the verdict was not a hang-up? bully
                      the same to me experts in the exam laughing
                    5. Dr. Frankenstucker
                      Dr. Frankenstucker 14 August 2020 20: 05 New
                      -1
                      Quote: SanichSan
                      the same to me experts in the exam

                      You, my dear, mumbled here about Goering's "fate", no? Work on the education gaps, young man.
                    6. Sanichsan
                      Sanichsan 14 August 2020 20: 16 New
                      -1
                      Quote: Dr. Frankenstucker
                      You, my dear, mumbled here about Goering's "fate", no?

                      you mumbled here, and the gibenki puffed up laughing , I stated the fact that Goering was tried and sentenced to a noose request
                      Quote: Dr. Frankenstucker
                      Work on the education gaps, young man.

                      in in. it would be very helpful for you .. to work on the CSV again .. you will fall from it and crash yes your claims to maturity, and show off like a schoolboy request
  • Nikolai Miracles
    Nikolai Miracles 9 August 2020 06: 56 New
    0
    A Soviet soldier storms his hometown, his relatives and friends are hiding in the basements from his own shells, they are killed. It is a crime?
    1. Liam
      Liam 9 August 2020 08: 38 New
      0
      Quote: Nikolai Chudov
      A Soviet soldier storms his hometown, his relatives and friends are hiding in the basements from his own shells, they are killed. It is a crime?

      Or, Soviet troops retreat and, in accordance with the tactics of the scorched earth, so that the enemy does not get to blow up the entire infrastructure of the city - bridges, food and medical warehouses, sewers, heat and power plants, etc., etc. , hunger, disease, etc. Moreover, there are many more deaths than from the actions of the enemy.
      Such actions and their consequences should be properly qualified.
      1. Nikolai Miracles
        Nikolai Miracles 9 August 2020 08: 44 New
        +1
        Could the war be lost without these actions? Please clarify.
        1. Liam
          Liam 9 August 2020 08: 48 New
          0
          From the point of view of criminal law, it makes no difference
          1. Nikolai Miracles
            Nikolai Miracles 9 August 2020 09: 20 New
            0
            Art. 39 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation An urgent need. To put it briefly: any act provided for by the Criminal Code is not a crime if, as a result of causing harm, more serious harm was prevented, and it was not possible to prevent it in another way, without causing harm.
            Note that in a state of urgency, harm is done to third parties, not the invader, and harm to the invader is necessary defense.
            1. Liam
              Liam 9 August 2020 09: 29 New
              0
              You are clearly not a lawyer. Read the comments on this article.
              But the life of one person is not more valuable than the life of another person. Therefore, saving one's own life by inflicting death on another person cannot be considered as legitimate harm in case of emergency..
              1. Nikolai Miracles
                Nikolai Miracles 9 August 2020 09: 42 New
                +1
                You are clearly not a lawyer: the harm caused should be less than the harm prevented, and you gave an example of equal harm.
        2. Octopus
          Octopus 9 August 2020 09: 50 New
          0
          Quote: Nikolai Chudov
          Could the war be lost without these actions? Please clarify.

          Weird question. I understand correctly that you justify the destruction of thousands, if not millions of people by altistory?

          No, the consensus on the strategic loss of the war in the East by the Reich is usually the battle for Moscow, sometimes Guderian's turn to Kiev at the end of July. From this moment on, no actions of the Soviet side can be justified by military necessity at the strategic level, as you are trying to do.
          Quote: Nikolai Chudov
          To put it briefly: any act provided for by the Criminal Code is not a crime if, as a result of harm, more serious harm was prevented, and it was not possible to prevent it in another way, without causing harm.

          Try to expand this thesis on the example of Z.A. Kosmodemyanskaya.
          1. Nikolai Miracles
            Nikolai Miracles 9 August 2020 09: 56 New
            0
            I am not justifying anything, and this is not an altistory, but normal reasoning during any pre-investigation check.
            on the example of Z.A. Kosmodemyanskaya.
            --- is it before the battle for Moscow or after?
            1. Octopus
              Octopus 9 August 2020 10: 08 New
              0
              Quote: Nikolai Chudov
              but normal reasoning during any pre-investigation check.

              This is a viola story. It is impossible to link the outcome of the war with a specific act of terror (with a few exceptions, usually associated with the removal of the commander in chief). Therefore, when defining war crimes, the outcome of the war is not mentioned.
              Quote: Nikolai Chudov
              before the battle for Moscow or after?

              In time, November 41st.
              Quote: Nikolai Chudov
              Could the war have been lost without these actions?

              Could the war be lost without setting fire to Comrade Sidorov's hay barn?
              1. Nikolai Miracles
                Nikolai Miracles 9 August 2020 10: 20 New
                0
                Therefore, when defining war crimes, the outcome of the war is not mentioned.
                --- by default the winners are judged, and the winners are not judged.
                Do all the Ivanovs, Petrovs, Sidorovs have the right to kill or surrender to the Germans all the arsonists sent by Comrade. Stalin? Nobody thought about this question, and I do not undertake to answer it.
              2. Liam
                Liam 9 August 2020 10: 38 New
                0
                Quote: Nikolai Chudov
                war is not mentioned
                --- by default the winners are judged, and the winners are not judged

                Is Budanov a winner or a loser in the Chechen war?
              3. Nikolai Miracles
                Nikolai Miracles 9 August 2020 10: 43 New
                +1
                Budanov is the price for reconciliation, and the winner is Kadyrov.
              4. Liam
                Liam 9 August 2020 11: 10 New
                0
                On the list of cognitive biases, your theories are in the column:
                Deviation towards the resultthe tendency to judge decisions by their final results, instead of judging the quality of decisions by the circumstances of the moment in which they were made (“winners are not judged”).
              5. Nikolai Miracles
                Nikolai Miracles 9 August 2020 11: 22 New
                +1
                Not a deviation, but a statement of fact. This is the reality.
        3. Octopus
          Octopus 9 August 2020 10: 45 New
          0
          Quote: Nikolai Chudov
          Nobody thought about this question,

          Why do you think so? This issue in international and military law is comprehensively sanctified, including as of the 40s.
          Quote: Nikolai Chudov
          Do all the Ivanovs, Petrovs, Sidorovs have the right to kill or surrender to the Germans all the arsonists sent by Comrade. Stalin?

          Yes, absolutely. And not only comrade. Stalin, but also Mr. Churchill, for example. A saboteur, and especially a partisan, is a war criminal by definition.
        4. Nikolai Miracles
          Nikolai Miracles 9 August 2020 11: 28 New
          0
          Article 4
          A. Prisoners of war for the purposes of this Convention are persons who have fallen into the power of the enemy and who belong to one of the following categories:

          1) The personnel of the armed forces of a party to the conflict, as well as personnel of the militia and volunteer corps that make up these armed forces.

          2) Personnel of other militias and volunteer corps, including personnel of organized resistance movements belonging to a party to the conflict and operating on or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, if these militias and volunteer corps, including organized movements resistance, meet the following conditions:

          a) are headed by a person responsible for their subordinates,

          b) have a definite and clearly visible distinguishing mark from a distance,

          c) openly carry weapons,

          d) comply with the laws and customs of war in their actions.

          http://docs.cntd.ru/document/1901070
          Only spies and mercenaries are not eligible for prisoner of war status.
          Additional Protocol I to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949 and relating to victims of international armed conflicts (as amended on 30 November 1993)
          Article 44

          Combatants and prisoners of war

          1. Any combatant, as defined in article 43, who falls into the power of the opposing party is a prisoner of war.

          2. While all combatants are bound by the rules of international law applicable in times of armed conflict, violations of these rules do not deprive a combatant of his right to be considered a combatant or, if he falls into the power of an opposing party, his right to be considered a prisoner of war, except as provided in paragraphs 3 and 4.

          3. In order to help strengthen the protection of civilians from the effects of hostilities, combatants have a duty to distinguish themselves from the civilian population while they are engaged in an attack or in a military operation in preparation for an attack. However, due to the fact that during armed conflicts there are situations in which, due to the nature of the hostilities, an armed combatant cannot distinguish himself from the civilian population, he retains his status as a combatant, provided that in such situations he openly carries his weapon:

          a) during each military clash; and

          b) at a time when he is in sight of the enemy during the deployment in battle formations, preceding the start of the attack, in which he must take part.

          Actions that meet the requirements of this paragraph are not considered as treacherous within the meaning of Article 37, paragraph 1 c).

          http://docs.cntd.ru/document/901755843
        5. Octopus
          Octopus 9 August 2020 12: 14 New
          0
          Quote: Nikolai Chudov
          meet the following conditions:

          a) are headed by a person responsible for their subordinates,

          b) have a definite and clearly visible distinguishing mark from a distance,

          c) openly carry weapons,

          d) comply with the laws and customs of war in their actions.

          Yes, that's exactly what it says. But an explanation is needed here.

          At first glance, it seems that this text was written by late Soviet intellectuals, who know about the realities of partisan war from the books of Mine Reed.

          But no. This was written by lying scoundrels who knew everything and understood everything. So if you cut all this lace to fit the realities of military justice, then the quoted article sounds simple.

          Shoot guerrillas and saboteurs on the spot.
        6. Nikolai Miracles
          Nikolai Miracles 9 August 2020 12: 21 New
          0
          However, due to the fact that during armed conflicts there are situations where, due to the nature of the hostilities, an armed combatant cannot distinguish himself from the civilian population, he retains his status as a combatant, provided that in such situations he openly carries his weapon.
          --- This provision applies to guerrillas and saboteurs, if you haven't noticed. They say that the French judge at the Nuremberg Tribunal tried to refer to the lack of uniforms among the partisans and equate them with bandits, but the tribunal did not agree with him.
        7. Octopus
          Octopus 9 August 2020 12: 39 New
          0
          Quote: Nikolai Chudov
          this provision applies to guerrillas and saboteurs, if you haven't noticed.

          Quote: Octopus
          At first glance, it seems that this text was written by late Soviet intellectuals, who know about the realities of partisan war from the books of Mine Reed.

          But no. This was written by lying scoundrels who knew everything and understood everything.

          Four suspects in the preparation of a terrorist attack against law enforcement officers were killed in Kabardino-Balkaria.

          The killed were found in the mountainous and wooded area of ​​the Chegem region of the republic. “During the arrest, the terrorists put up armed resistance and received injuries incompatible with life,” the FSB quoted Interfax as saying. According to the ministry, they belonged to the Islamic State extremist group.
        8. Nikolai Miracles
          Nikolai Miracles 9 August 2020 12: 46 New
          0
          GENEVA CONVENTION
          on the Treatment of Prisoners of War of August 12, 1949 *

          Article 2
          In addition to the regulations that should enter into force in peacetime, this The Convention will apply in the event of a declared war or any other armed conflict arising between two or more High Contracting Parties., even if one of them does not recognize the state of war.

          http://docs.cntd.ru/document/1901070
        9. Octopus
          Octopus 9 August 2020 13: 01 New
          0
          I'm tired of writing the same thing for the third time.
        10. Nikolai Miracles
          Nikolai Miracles 9 August 2020 13: 05 New
          0
          Criminal Code Article 37. Necessary defense
          (in the edition of the Federal Law from 14.03.2002 N 29-FZ)

          1. It is not a crime to harm an infringing person in a state of necessary defense, that is, in the protection of the individual and the rights of the defending or other persons protected by law, the interests of society or the state from socially dangerous assault, if this encroachment was associated with violence dangerous to the life of the defending or other person , or with an immediate threat of such violence.

          http://www.consultant.ru/document/cons_doc_LAW_10699/77b14e07f04f185ae49db939c7d69b30b92f7715/#:~:text=%D0%9D%D0%B5%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%85%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%B0%D1%8F%20%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B0,-(%D0%B2%20%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B4.&text=%D0%9D%D0%B5%20%D1%8F%D0%B2%D0%BB%D1%8F%D1%8E%D1%82%D1%81%D1%8F%20%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B2%D1%8B%D1%88%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%BC%20%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B2%20%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%85%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%B9,%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BF%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%8C%20%D0%B8%20%D1%85%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BA%D1%82%D0%B5%D1%80%20%D0%BE%D0%BF%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8%20%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%BF%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F.
  • Liam
    Liam 9 August 2020 10: 37 New
    0
    Quote: Octopus
    by consensus

    According to my observations, if the sacred Winners are not judged-the discussion can be safely minimized)
  • Sanichsan
    Sanichsan 13 August 2020 22: 19 New
    -1
    Quote: Sea Cat
    By the way, do you know what state this notorious Kwantung Army was in? After all, the best and efficient units were withdrawn from it during the war and sent to the defense of the islands.

    do not tell me how much? If I am not mistaken, the garrisons of the islands averaged 15000, right? for example one of the biggest American victories is the capture of Iwo Jima. victory over a garrison of 22000. Are you seriously saying that those 22000 (according to the most optimistic estimates of the Japanese forces) bled the Kwantung Army Group of over 1.3 million?
    1. Dr. Frankenstucker
      Dr. Frankenstucker 14 August 2020 09: 01 New
      -1
      Quote: SanichSan
      over 1.3 million?

      Yes, make it up to one and a half million, what is there. Or is there a limit in the training manual?
      1. Sanichsan
        Sanichsan 14 August 2020 19: 39 New
        -1
        Quote: Dr. Frankenstucker
        Or is there a limit in the training manual?

        manuals are your path. pull serious study vryatli, so at least go to the wiki.
        1. Dr. Frankenstucker
          Dr. Frankenstucker 14 August 2020 20: 03 New
          0
          Quote: SanichSan
          so at least go to the wiki.

          ah, yes - wikis. it
          Quote: SanichSan
          vryatli
          1. Sanichsan
            Sanichsan 14 August 2020 20: 09 New
            -1
            Quote: Dr. Frankenstucker
            ah, yes - wikis. it

            this is the average. in different sources from 1 to 1.5.
            but yes, there are alternatively gifted ones who talk about 0.5-0.7.
            By the way, are your sources still a finger in your nose and a ceiling? laughing
  • parusnik
    parusnik 6 August 2020 06: 33 New
    +6
    If the atomic bomb won, then Japan, according to the logic of those who assert it, should have surrendered on August 8, 1945 ...
    1. Snail N9
      Snail N9 6 August 2020 07: 14 New
      +9
      Each "side" will have its own "winners" - and this can never be changed, even if you "write" such articles ...
      1. sav
        sav 6 August 2020 07: 25 New
        14
        All the same, more often the United States needs to poke its nose into nuclear bombings in order to remind the world of these mummers "saviors of mankind"
        1. major147
          major147 6 August 2020 10: 39 New
          +3
          Quote: sav
          All the same, more often the United States needs to poke its nose into nuclear bombings in order to remind the world of these mummers "saviors of mankind"

          "The most regrettable thing is that in modern Japan, among the nationalist-minded youth, you are spreading the rumor that the atomic bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki by the Russians, not the Americans." It is reported by Rambler.
          1. Dr. Frankenstucker
            Dr. Frankenstucker 6 August 2020 12: 57 New
            +3
            Well, if Rambler or Yandex-Zen said, then it is, yes.
      2. Dr. Frankenstucker
        Dr. Frankenstucker 6 August 2020 10: 55 New
        -2
        Quote: Snail N9
        Each "side" will have its own "winners" - and this can never be changed, even if you "write" such articles ...

        a very correct reaction to any Samsonov's writing. This miracle creep out of the Soviet agitprop, when all sources other than ideologically correct ones were closed. This pretender goes too far in his patriotic peremptoryness.
  • Avior
    Avior 6 August 2020 07: 34 New
    15
    Of course, I understand that the emperor could say one thing and think another, this happens all the time, especially among politicians, but out of simple respect for the readers, the author could cite an excerpt from the text of the emperor's only direct appeal to the Japanese nation, in which he , among other things, explains the reason for Japan's surrender and Japan's acceptance of the terms of the Potsdam Declaration
    ... at the disposal of the enemy is a terrible new weapon capable of taking many innocent lives and inflicting immeasurable material damage. If we continue to fight, it will not only lead to the collapse and destruction of the Japanese nation, but also to the complete extinction of human civilization.

    In such a situation, how can we save millions of our subjects or justify ourselves before the sacred spirit of our ancestors? For this reason, we ordered that the terms of the joint declaration of our opponents be accepted.

    Well, at least the author could just mention that this appeal was on August 14, although it obviously contradicts what he proves in the article. Just out of respect for the readers.
    The Americans did not, of course, have a large number of atomic bombs, but the Japanese did not know about this, their imagination drew massive bombings with such bombs.
    (The Japanese made the decision to surrender on the night from 9 to 10 on the day of the bombing of Nagasaki at 9 at 11 o'clock, while the damage in Hiroshima was caused by just one bomb, the Japanese simply did not believe, the effect of it was very different from all known weapons. in Nagasaki, they already believed. The USSR entered the war on August 8, but you need to take into account the time difference, so the information came with a short interval in time)
    Two days later, in an appeal not to the nation, but only to the army, the emperor named another reason - the entry into the war of the USSR, but the author did not mention this either.
    The emperor died only in 1989, by the way.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 6 August 2020 07: 59 New
      +9
      Quote: Avior
      Well, at least the author could just mention that this appeal was on August 14, although it obviously contradicts what he proves in the article.

      Not only is it contradicting, it is also wrong. The fact is that the Japanese were looking for peace long before nuclear weapons were used, and until recently they hoped that the USSR would act as an intermediary. When he entered the war, there was nothing to hope for, and they capitulated.
      And the reference to nuclear weapons is simply the preservation of a "good mine in a bad game", especially this
      Quote: Avior
      If we continue to fight, it will not only lead to the collapse and destruction of the Japanese nation, but also to the complete extinction of human civilization.

      The emperor had nowhere to know about nuclear weapons - all he could know about them was that it was a "very strong bomb"
      1. Avior
        Avior 6 August 2020 08: 13 New
        +2
        So he did not write about nuclear weapons, he probably did not know the words of this.
        After Nagasaki, he and others believed that it was a drop deadly powerful bomb, incomparably stronger than anything known so far, with which Japan could be razed to the ground.
        They didn’t know that it was piece.
        About the fact that I thought that the USSR would be a mediator, I do not argue, the Japanese wanted it.
        But the fact remains - on the fresh trail there was just such a statement.
      2. Engineer
        Engineer 6 August 2020 15: 25 New
        +2
        However, on August 7, the General Staff sent a commission of specialists to Hiroshima, headed by the head of the 2nd Directorate, Lieutenant General Arisue Seizo. The commission included a prominent specialist in atomic energy, Professor Nishina Yoshio, and relevant persons from the aviation headquarters and the military medical academy. Arriving in Hiroshima, the commission immediately established that the new type of bomb was undoubtedly atomic. This was reported in Tokyo

        Hattori Takushiro
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 6 August 2020 16: 15 New
          +3
          Quote: Engineer
          Arriving in Hiroshima, the commission immediately established that the new type of bomb was undoubtedly atomic. This was reported in Tokyo

          Denis, you are in such a hurry to oppose that you do not bother trying to understand what has been written :)))) Once again
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          The emperor had nowhere to know about nuclear weapons - all he could know about them was that it was a "very strong bomb"

          It seems to be quite clear from the phrase that the question is that the Japanese did not understand what exactly an atomic bomb was. That is, with obvious factors such as a shock wave, heat radiation, etc. they collided, but radiation, radiation contamination, etc. - they had nowhere to know. This, in fact, the Americans themselves did not yet understand, otherwise they would not have arranged exercises with the use of TNW in the 50s.
          Without knowing all the damaging factors of a nuclear explosion, it is impossible to seriously talk about
          Quote: Avior
          complete disappearance of human civilization

          Actually, even with today's nuclear arsenals, a full-scale nuclear war will not lead to the destruction of mankind, and even then ..
          In general, there is a pulling of the imperial owl on the globe
          1. Engineer
            Engineer 6 August 2020 19: 35 New
            +1
            It seems to be quite clear from the phrase that the question is that the Japanese did not understand what exactly an atomic bomb was. That is, with obvious factors such as a shock wave, heat radiation, etc. they collided, but radiation, radiation contamination, etc. - they had nowhere to know ...

            That's what I'm arguing with. The Japanese may not have known about radiation, but they felt the rest too well on their own skin. And Professor Yoshio probably explained to them what kind of abyss separates the Japanese from these weapons and the fact that there are no countermeasures from them. My opinion is that they understood very well what they were facing. And I agree with the thesis of Avior-Sergei that they were so impressed that the emperor clearly mentioned this factor in his address to the nation.
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 7 August 2020 07: 29 New
              +1
              Quote: Engineer
              That's what I'm arguing with. The Japanese may not have known about radiation, but they felt the rest too well on their own skin.

              What about everything else? The Americans burned Japanese cities without superbombs.
              Quote: Engineer
              And Professor Yoshio probably explained to them what kind of abyss separates the Japanese from these weapons and the fact that there are no countermeasures from them.

              So the United States had a mass of weapons, from which the Japanese did not have countermeasures. In 1944, they could not resist the Americans either at sea or in the air.
              Quote: Engineer
              And I agree with the thesis of Avior-Sergei that they were so impressed that the emperor clearly mentioned this factor in his address to the nation.

              This thesis is refuted by just one fact - the Japanese were looking for peace long before the use of nuclear weapons.
              1. Engineer
                Engineer 7 August 2020 09: 42 New
                +1
                What about everything else? The Americans burned Japanese cities without superbombs.

                And now cities were burning single planes.
                So the United States had a mass of weapons, from which the Japanese did not have countermeasures. In 1944, they could not resist the Americans either at sea or in the air.

                From a massive raid, you can sit out in shelters, significantly reducing casualties. In Nagoya, people just managed to escape the fires. Now even single planes, which were usually ignored in the past, were deadly.
                The horrific impact of AB, including moral, has been noted in many sources. The same Horikoshi has.
                This thesis is refuted by just one fact - the Japanese were looking for peace long before the use of nuclear weapons.

                Confirmed. Before AB, they searched hard World... After-agreed to capitulation
                1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                  Andrei from Chelyabinsk 7 August 2020 10: 31 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Engineer
                  And now cities were burning single planes.

                  Who cares? The effect is the same
                  Quote: Engineer
                  Confirmed. Before AB, they stubbornly sought peace. After-agreed to surrender

                  Not confirmed, because they agreed to surrender not after the atomic bomb, but after the USSR entered the war. The USSR remained the only country that, at least in theory, could act as an intermediary between Japan and the United States.
                  1. Engineer
                    Engineer 7 August 2020 12: 26 New
                    +1
                    The effect is primarily in the heads. I already wrote about the psychological aspect. Hiroshima alone is roughly equal to the bombing of Tokyo in March. Hiroshima alone is roughly equal to all other bombings without Tokyo. This is from the point of view of the victims.
                    Not confirmed, because they agreed to surrender not after the atomic bomb, but after the USSR entered the war.

                    Timing from 6 to 9 August is a separate issue. The question of the relationship between the various factors that led to surrender is another problem
                    The thesis that it was the entry into the war of the USSR that led to the surrender of Japan is even more distorted than the thesis "the atomic bomb has decided"
                    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 7 August 2020 15: 33 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Engineer
                      Timing from 6 to 9 August is a separate issue. The question of the relationship between the various factors that led to surrender is another problem

                      The operator, EMNIP, more or less correctly stated
                      6 - dropping the American atomic bomb on Hiroshima
                      8 - USSR declaration of war on Japan
                      9 - dropping the American atomic bomb on Nagasaki
                      10 - Japan's consent to surrender on Japanese terms
                      12 - breakthrough of all defense lines of the Kwantung Army in all directions
                      14 - the Japanese emperor announced unconditional surrender
                      What's the problem here?
                      1. Octopus
                        Octopus 7 August 2020 17: 27 New
                        +2
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        What's the problem here?

                        The problem here is that the Operator, like you, throws in the cards of a different deck. There was no question of any "all lines of defense" on August 12, Tokyo knew no more about the situation than in Moscow 26.06.41/XNUMX/XNUMX

                        1. Aug 6 Hiroshima.
                        2. On August 9 at night (not on the 8th, you need to take Tokyo time, not Moscow time) Molotov's statement and the Manchukuo attack.
                        3.Aug 9 in the morning of Nagasaki
                        4.Aug 9 14.30 Imperial Council. They beat each other with candelabra until late at night.
                        5. On August 10, the Ambassador in Sweden received consent to Potsdam with a reservation for the Emperor.
                        6. On August 11 in Tokyo (that is, practically immediately, they received this message through Sweden), the US refused.
                        7.August 14 attempted military coup.
                        8. August 15 Hirohito's address to the nation.

                        But there was no talk of any serious battles in Manchuria these days.
    2. parusnik
      parusnik 6 August 2020 08: 00 New
      +2
      And it is not embarrassing that although Japan surrendered on August 14, the fighting continued right up to September 5 ... The Kwantung Army was not going to surrender ... why its atomic bombings were not intimidated ...
      1. Blackmokona
        Blackmokona 6 August 2020 08: 16 New
        +7
        So in Japan there was an attempt at a coup. To put it mildly, not everyone agreed with the surrender. The entry into the war of the USSR, too, did not scare the millitarians in the least.
      2. Avior
        Avior 6 August 2020 08: 26 New
        +6
        The surrender order was issued on August 14, and the Kwantung Army surrendered on August 16 when the order came through.
        And that someone before August 5, as you write, fought, so some Japanese was caught from the jungle only recently, he still fought.
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 6 August 2020 10: 08 New
          +3
          Quote: Avior
          And that someone before August 5, as you write, fought, so some Japanese was caught from the jungle only recently, he still fought.

          In fact, the problem with command and control in the IJA was extremely serious. The General Staff officer who delivered the order to withdraw troops to Guadalcanal was seriously afraid that the local "field commanders" would immediately bury him and continue to fight. A classic "Japanese discipline" can be considered the Imphal operation, during which, for an excessively free interpretation of orders (for example, one Japanese divisional commander for a week refused to carry out an order of the army commander to launch an offensive in order to cut the only road for the British from the cauldron) lost their posts of divisional commander, EMNIP, all divisions that took part in it.
        2. parusnik
          parusnik 6 August 2020 14: 40 New
          +1
          The surrender order was issued on August 14
          .... On August 12, the Red Army broke through the Japanese front in all directions. On August 16, 1945, the commander of the Kwantung Army, General Yamada Otozo, ordered his army to surrender. Coincidence? And closely related to the atomic bombing of Japanese cities?
          some Japanese just recently fished out of the jungle, he still fought.
          ... In the jungles and mountains of Manchuria? smile
          1. Avior
            Avior 6 August 2020 15: 57 New
            0
            The surrender of Japan is associated with the bombing - Hirohito said about it himself - read above.
            And the surrender of the Kwantung Army is associated with the surrender of Japan. They surrendered as the order of surrender reached them.
            ... On August 16, 1945, the commander of the Kwantung Army, General Yamada Otozo, ordered his army to surrender after receiving an order from Emperor Hirohito, who announced the surrender of Japan on August 14, 1945. Some Japanese divisions refused to surrender, and fighting continued for the next few days.

            Everything seems to be clear.
      3. Dr. Frankenstucker
        Dr. Frankenstucker 6 August 2020 11: 23 New
        +3
        Quote: parusnik
        The Kwantung Army was not going to surrender ...

        nonsense. She capitulated upon receiving orders from the Mikado. Those who did not receive the order due to lack of communication, and not from some heroic initiative of the division commanders did not surrender. And when the Red Army reached the main units of the Kwantung Army, they had already laid down their arms. So no need to talk about "fanatics" who were going to fight to the last.
      4. Alex013
        Alex013 6 August 2020 12: 22 New
        +3
        I agree with you. And for some Japanese, the war lasted until the 70s and beyond. Hiroo Onoda, for example, only surrendered in 1974. And in 2005 in the Philippines there was the fact of the surrender of the Japanese. They were already under 90 years old.
      5. The comment was deleted.
  • Operator
    Operator 6 August 2020 08: 22 New
    0
    Timeline of August 1945:
    6 - dropping the American atomic bomb on Hiroshima
    8 - USSR declaration of war on Japan
    9 - dropping the American atomic bomb on Nagasaki
    10 - Japan's consent to surrender on Japanese terms
    12 - breakthrough of all defense lines of the Kwantung Army in all directions
    14 - the Japanese emperor announced unconditional surrender
    16 - the command of the Kwantung Army issued an order to surrender
    19 - the beginning of the implementation of the order of surrender by units of the Kwantung Army

    In other words, the Japanese regime ignored the fact of the atomic bombing of two cities on the territory of the metropolis and agreed to unconditional surrender only after the defense of the Kwantung Army in Manchuria collapsed.

    PS In principle, the USSR had every reason to shoot all 600 Japanese prisoners of the former Kwantung Army, from commander to privates, for refusing to end hostilities after the announcement of surrender by the head of the Japanese state (after which the belligerent Japanese soldiers automatically became members of illegal armed groups).
  • Octopus
    Octopus 6 August 2020 08: 31 New
    +8
    Yes, as soon as I praised the united Samsonov yesterday, instead of a new exciting fantasy about the struggle of the Anglo-Saxon orcs with the Russian elves, he issued some kind of reply to the date. It's bad to be like this.
    According to Western researchers, the entry of the Soviet Army into the war in the Far East did not play any role in the surrender of the Japanese Empire. She would still have fallen to the blows of the United States. Moscow took part in the war with Japan in order to be among its victors and to snatch its piece in the division of spheres of influence in the Asia-Pacific region. Because of the desire to be in time for this section, Moscow even violated the Non-Aggression Pact concluded between Russia and Japan. That is, the USSR "treacherously attacked Japan"

    It's like that. In this case, a piece of Comrade. Stalin snatched it back in Yalta, about which he waved the appropriate piece of paper. If you read this piece of paper, it is easy to see that for some reason, China, which was not present at this meeting, had to pay for Comrade Stalin's help in the embodiment of Roosevelt's crazy fantasies. Trading your allies is a completely American way of doing business, for which, in fact, they are not liked.
    The decisive factor that forced Japan to lay down arms was the use of nuclear weapons by the Americans

    This version was popular while the local Epishevs were responsible for history in the United States. Over time, the concept became basic that the reason for Japan's surrender was - suddenly! - lost in a splash back in the 44th year of the war. Who would have thought.
    At the same time, they close their eyes to the fact that the Japanese government and military command, despite the use of atomic weapons by the United States, did not intend to surrender.

    And this is just a lie. Japanese government И the military command is two different structures. If the "command" really wanted to fight until the last Japanese and in August tried to slaughter the Emperor on this issue, then the Emperor and the government (there were 3 of them) were much more sane. The situation is the opposite of the German one, when Hitler wanted to die with music, and everyone else, starting with Himmler and Goering, did not.
    The "party of war" was actively preparing for the enemy invasion

    Yes, I did. Actually, the victory happened when the "war party" was pushed aside.
    And the threshold of psychological tolerance for losses among the people themselves was very high.

    In reality, Japan has lost three times less than Germany with the same population.
    Therefore, in case of failure in the battle for the Japanese Islands, it was planned to evacuate the imperial family, the top leadership and part of the troops to the mainland and continue the war.

    How interesting. What did Mr. Nimitz think about this? Did someone ask him?
    At the same time, the possible losses in the battle for Japan were estimated quite high, up to a million people.

    )))
    General Douglas MacArthur knew how and loved to destroy his own soldiers and foreign civilians. Actually, this is the only thing he did well in his life. Therefore, the stories about a million Americans (by the way, shared, not killed, a couple of Berlin operations with Soviet money) are exclusively MacArthur's dreams of bloodshed, and not a realistic assessment of Downfall.

    And the main military secret of August, as already mentioned above, is that Japan sought peace for at least six months. The Americans beat the prone with great pleasure and skill.
    was the last chance to maintain the regime.

    Let me remind you that Hirohito was slightly under-emperor until the end of the USSR.
    It should be noted that in the conditions of the preparation of the United States and England for the third world war with the USSR

    Unfortunately no. The fact that the war was not over, Comrade Stalin reported to Mr. Truman only in 48. But even then Mr. Truman refused to do anything about it.
    the entry into the war of the USSR and the complete defeat of the million-strong Kwantung army in Manchuria Japan lost all chances for a more or less favorable peace

    )))
    The nuance is that defeat of the Kwantung Army took place after surrender, not before. That paints this operation in a slightly different color, both politically and militarily.
    Russia's entry into the war in the Far East, which deprived the Japanese of their last means to continue the war, played a more important role than the use of atomic weapons by the United States.

    ))
    The entry of the USSR.

    Oddly enough, this is not a complete lie.
    1. that deprived the Japanese of their last means to continue the war is a lie. The mainland was out of reach for the Metropolis. Yes, some schemes, escape to a submarine or by plane at night could still be considered, but from the point of view of uniting military forces, these are all tears.
    played a more important role than the use of atomic weapons by the United States
    2a. The Americans' note to AB had no military significance at all. End the war by applying weapons of retaliation - nothing more than a beautiful idea that the Americans were sorry to abandon. If AB had not been applied, it would have turned out to be greatest achievement of American engineering and economic power - nothing more than a waste of funds. It hurt the Americans to think about it. It hurt Americans in general to think. Americans didn't like hurting themselves.

    The invention and use of AB was a disaster for the American military. Like Gollum with the ring, since then they only thought about our beauty , completely useless in a real war, destroying as unnecessary everything that really constituted military power. This approach cost the Americans two lost wars, losses in which are comparable to the entire Western European WWII campaign.

    2b. In many ways, unexpectedly, AB became the most important political factor in the war. This fireworks allowed the Japanese national traitors, led by Hirohito, to finally gnaw at the patriots and did not allow the latter to exchange 100 million (mostly alien) lives for (their) honor. How much there was from AB, how much from the entry into the war of the USSR - a domestic Japanese question, which few people concern. The reasoning of Mr. Samsonov is nothing more than noise in the forest.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 6 August 2020 12: 27 New
      +2
      Quote: Octopus
      How interesting. What did Mr. Nimitz think about this? Did someone ask him?

      Yes, here and Mr. LeMay would be nice to hear. smile
      Quote: Octopus
      Therefore, stories about a million Americans (by the way, shared, not killed, a couple of Berlin operations with Soviet money) are exclusively MacArthur's dreams of bloodshed, and not a realistic assessment of Downfall.

      EMNIP, the estimated loss figures were still used in Washington as an argument in disputes about the financing of the Armed Forces in general and certain types of Armed Forces in particular.
      Quote: Octopus
      And the main military secret of August, as already mentioned above, is that Japan sought peace for at least six months.

      It depends on which part of Japan. The Japanese Foreign Ministry has been looking for peace since 1943, when it began to implement the concept of "double mediation" (Japan will mediate peace negotiations between the USSR and Germany, and the USSR will mediate between Japan and the Allies for this). And they were doing this even in July 1945, when the first part of the concept disappeared completely. for technical reasons.
      Is that what they had in their heads? what
      Quote: Octopus
      If AB had not been used, it would have turned out that this is the greatest achievement of American engineering thought and economic power - nothing more than a waste of funds.

      Plus, as Groves wrote, the developers needed to test against a real target - to understand the scale of the new bomb's impact. Polygon tests did not suit them.
      However, this also fell into the concept "money for the Manhattan project was well spent"- the city destroyed by one bomb could convince even a congressman of this.
      Quote: Octopus
      This fireworks allowed the Japanese national traitors, led by Hirohito, to finally gnaw at the patriots and did not allow the latter to exchange 100 million (mostly alien) lives for (their) honor.

      Well, yes, an excuse was needed to recognize the enemy as an irresistible force and bow before him.
      1. Octopus
        Octopus 6 August 2020 14: 32 New
        +3
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Mr. LeMay would be nice to hear

        It is a pity that we did not manage to hear the head of the transport department (s).
        Quote: Alexey RA
        loss figures were still used in Washington as an argument in disputes about the financing of the Armed Forces in general and certain types of Armed Forces in particular

        The Americans have expanded and deepened the idea of ​​"write more than them, bastard, pity".
        Quote: Alexey RA
        they were doing this even in July 1945, when the first part of the concept disappeared completely for technical reasons.
        Is that what they had in their heads?

        Like the Americans, the Japanese had a beautiful idea, which it was a pity to abandon)))
        Quote: Alexey RA
        as Groves wrote, the developers needed

        Groves and the developers didn't make that decision, not their level. This is pretty obvious.

        It sounds strange, but according to the materials it seems that no one took this decision at all. The decision was made back in 39, in different circumstances, and somehow it went by inertia: so much has been done, so much money invested, and what, to give up? This REFUSAL from CiN would have been a serious decision, but Truman initially avoided sharp turns. So another (alas, not the last) gift to the world from Roosevelt.
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Well yes, it needed a reason

        It wasn't necessary to kill all these people for a reason. They agreed to leave Hirohito (as it actually happened) - that's the reason.

        But no. I wanted to burn too much. Its cool! Have you seen the records from Beirut? So in 45 it was even cooler!
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 6 August 2020 15: 18 New
          0
          Quote: Octopus
          Groves and the developers didn't make that decision, not their level. This is pretty obvious.

          That's right - they didn't make a decision. They only chose the purpose and method of application.
          Regarding the decision to use Groves, it brings down everything on Truman (but then it is blurted out that in fact everything was decided under the FDR):
          After the war, the decision to drop a bomb on Japan was discussed many times. Decisions of this type are always made by one person, and in this case the full responsibility fell on President Truman. Under the Quebec Treaty, Churchill's consent was necessary, but the importance of the original decision and Truman's primary responsibility did not diminish from this.

          Quote: Octopus
          This REFUSAL from CiN would have been a serious decision, but Truman avoided sharp turns at first. So another (alas, not the last) gift to the world from Roosevelt.

          The fact that the decision to use nuclear weapons was actually made even under Roosevelt, Groves writes directly:
          When we just started work in the field of atomic energy, the United States of America had not yet planned the use of atomic weapons against any power. As the work of the project developed, the situation began to change. Our work turned out to be extremely costly, both in the literal sense and in their impact on other military efforts of the country. Over time, watching the project devour gigantic funds, the government was increasingly inclined to think about using the atomic bomb. And although it was always said that we did this work only in order to get ahead of Hitler, the fact remains: the decision to significantly increase the scale of work was made from the perspective of using a bomb. As Stimson put it in his usual laconic way: "The purpose of the Manhattan Project was to win the war faster than any other means, and to save the lives of thousands of Americans."

          Naturally, I, and also, as far as I could understand, Roosevelt and Truman never had any doubts that we were developing weapons for use against the enemies of the United States. The first doubt about the possibility of using the atomic bomb arose after the surrender of Germany. One day after this event, Deputy Secretary of War Paterson asked me if the surrender of Germany could affect our determination to use the bomb against Japan.
          At the time of organizing our grandiose work, I saw no reason for canceling the decision taken by Roosevelt, since the surrender of Germany did not in any way affect the hostile position of Japan ...

          Quote: Octopus
          It wasn't necessary to kill all these people for a reason. They agreed to leave Hirohito (as it actually happened) - that's the reason.

          I wrote about the occasion in relation to the Japanese. Leaving Tenno in office alone, I fear, would not be enough for the overwhelming majority to recognize the need for surrender. It would rather be:
          "“The Gaijins have agreed to leave the emperor for us!
          - Cool, let's fight on - maybe we'll knock something out of them.
          "
          For a turning point in favor of peace, something more significant was needed. Type:
          "- The Gaijins have come up with a new bomb - now they only need one bomber to destroy an entire city!
          - Kso, they have more bombers than our cities. And we cannot do anything to them. There is no point in fighting an earthquake or tsunami ... you have to end the war.
          "
          1. Octopus
            Octopus 6 August 2020 15: 48 New
            +1
            Quote: Alexey RA
            Groves throws everything on Truman (but then he blurts out that in fact everything was decided under the FDR)

            Roosevelt made his decision in different circumstances. Truman will not change him when circumstances have changed. This is the responsibility of the first person, nothing can be done about it.
            Quote: Alexey RA
            Groves writes directly that the decision to use nuclear weapons was actually made under Roosevelt.

            Yes, I am guided by it.
            Quote: Alexey RA
            For the turning point in favor of the world, something more significant was needed

            This is already an alternative history. But it is obvious to me that the person who should have done everything to prevent ChiN is James Byrnes, the 49th US Secretary of State. Alas, he did everything to make the CiN happen. Of the Americans - the second, and perhaps the first culprit in the death of all these people.

            In general, some kind of madhouse was going on among the Americans. The military hated war, and the diplomats hated the world.
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 6 August 2020 18: 24 New
              0
              Quote: Octopus
              In general, some kind of madhouse was going on among the Americans. The military hated war, and the diplomats hated the world.

              Yes, no, everything is fine - just by 1945 the military already understand what war is. And what about the politicians, they can't die there.
              Some folks inherit star spangled eyes
              Ooh, they send you down to war, Lord
              And when you ask 'em, "How much should we give?"
              Ooh, they only answer "More, more, more!"

              Although on the other side of the front, the situation was no better: politicians and the military, hovering in dreams of their plans, which have long had nothing to do with objective reality. And among this world of dreams, the only sane person is a mystical and spiritual figure, the sacred symbol of the nation. laughing
              1. Octopus
                Octopus 6 August 2020 19: 09 New
                +2
                Quote: Alexey RA
                the only sane person is a mystical and spiritual figure, the sacred symbol of the nation

                I remember that you are a secret Leningrad samurai devoted to the late Mikado.

                Still, it wasn’t that bad. The Japanese had some kind of strange potential military dictatorship, where civilians and the anointed one seem to be in command, but both of them are forced to look back at the samurai who from time to time rush them.

                And considering that there are two sets of samurai, land and sea, plus a strongly independent Yamamoto, plus a strongly independent Kwantung army, it is strange that the emperor did not kill up the wall by the 45th year. MacArthur was like a father to him, albeit a little sick, but at least one, not ten.
                1. Kwas
                  Kwas 8 August 2020 19: 21 New
                  0
                  Quote: Octopus
                  yes, plus a very independent Yamamoto,

                  Yamamoto died in 1943!
                  1. Octopus
                    Octopus 8 August 2020 20: 43 New
                    0
                    Quote: Kwas
                    Yamamoto died in 1943!

                    I'm aware, thanks.
  • Maks1995
    Maks1995 6 August 2020 09: 13 New
    +2
    Yes, I remembered the story, read the comments ...
    oh, not everything is written by the author, oh, he hides details for the sake of politics ...
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 6 August 2020 09: 59 New
    +3
    Japan had a powerful grouping of ground forces in China, including Manchuria, in Korea. The troops on the mainland retained their combat capability; there was a second military-economic base of the empire here.

    The interrogation record of 1st Front Commander General Seiichi paints a different picture:
    In 1944 and early 1945. from the Kwantung Army, many divisions were recalled to the mother country and to the southern fronts. In just 10 months, during which I commanded 1 front, 6 divisions were withdrawn from the front. Among them: 11, 25 infantry divisions and 1 tank division - to the metropolis, 111 and 120 infantry divisions - to Korea and 12 infantry divisions to FORMOZU.

    In July 1945, at the direction of the headquarters of the Kwantung Army, the 1st Front formed 134, 135 and 139 front and 132 mixed brigades. For the formation of these compounds, in addition to the called-up Japanese and Koreans living in MANCHURIA, various small detachments and units were used, including from border garrisons. We managed to finish the formation mainly by July 30, but not completely, because there were not enough people and weapons (guns and machine guns).

    In July 1945, the formation of new formations was also carried out in the districts of 3 fronts, which almost all were re-created during this period and in the districts of 4 armies. In early July 1945, 59 pd arrived from China to Korea.

    At the same time, the possible losses in the battle for Japan were estimated quite high, up to a million people.

    The range of estimates of losses was from 150 thousand to 4 million (of which 20% - no return).
    For the Japanese military and political leadership, the long, stubborn and bloody battle for Japan was the last chance to preserve the regime. It was hoped that Washington and London would not sacrifice hundreds of thousands of soldiers. And they will go to an agreement with Tokyo. As a result, Japan will be able to maintain its internal autonomy, albeit by abandoning all conquests on the mainland. There was a chance that the West would want to use Japan as an anti-Russian foothold (as before), and then some of the positions will be retained: the Kuriles, Sakhalin, Korea and Northeast China. It should be noted that in the conditions of the preparation of the United States and Britain for the third world war with the USSR ("cold war"), such options were quite possible. After all, the war with Japan worsened the military and political capabilities of the West, led by the United States, and Russia used this time to restore and strengthen its positions in the world.
    And after the USSR entered the war and the complete defeat of the million-strong Kwantung Army in Manchuria, Japan lost all chances for a more or less favorable peace.

    Mmmm ... that is, according to the author's logic, it turns out that the entry of the USSR into the war harmed the interests of the USSR: Japan's quick surrender and its "laying under the United States" were the result of the defeat of the Kwantung Army by the Soviet troops? That is, it turns out that the USSR "dragged chestnuts out of the fire for uncle."

    For, according to the same logic, if Soviet neutrality was preserved, the Allies got involved in a long and bloody campaign on the Japanese islands with a promising or Japanese surrender and a long struggle against the partisans ("We do not believe you - the Emperor was forced to write this piece of paper!"), Or a peaceful treaty - and the preservation of a hostile Japan.
  • A. Privalov
    A. Privalov 6 August 2020 10: 06 New
    +3
    Japan waged war from 1941 to 1945, and local wars since 1931.
    The hostilities took place in China, the Korean Peninsula, French Indochina, Thailand, Burma, Malaya, the Dutch East Indies, Papua New Guinea, the Philippines, the Solomon Islands, the Marshall Islands, the Mariana Islands, many Pacific islands, in the Pacific and Indian Oceans. .
    Of course, only weaklings who were part of the anti-Hitler coalition fought against it: the dystrophic USA, the tortured Great Britain and Canada, the weak Australia, New Zealand, China, not to mention some unknown Netherlands, Thailand and other France.

    Japan lost in these clashes, including nuclear and atomic bombing, 2 soldiers and about 000 civilians ...

    After the bombing of Hiroshima, the Japanese did not blink an eye. Moreover, "the issue of this bombing was not even brought up to the meeting of the Supreme Council for the leadership of the war," such scoundrels!

    Oh, you so ?, - said the USSR and two or three days after the atomic bombing of Hiroshima entered the war with the defeated and bombed Japan, starting the Yuzhno-Sakhalin operation.

    From the nuclear bombing of Nagasaki on August 9, 1945, the Japanese did not even scratch themselves, but, according to the author, began to prepare hidden partisan bases in some mountains and forests.
    Revealing the evil designs of the Japanese imperialists, the USSR developed its success by starting the Kuril airborne operation on August 18, 1945.

    In a word, debunking the myth of some kind of aggression, the USSR in just three weeks defeated the "invincible" Japanese, including their notorious Kwantung Army and, having seized the Southern Kuriles as a trophy of war, forced them to sign an act of surrender. Point.
    1. chenia
      chenia 7 August 2020 09: 39 New
      +1
      Quote: A. Privalov
      2 soldiers


      Right here. I doubt. The biggest "battles" in this theater of operations, these are army operations of 3-4 divisions on each side (and even then there are not many of them). And so on 5-8 thousand on the islands. Is this all the losses of the Navy? And there weren't so many ships for such losses.
      And where did such a decrease come from? We compare the losses in the European theater of operations (where multimillion-dollar groupings, fronts, and army groups were constantly butting), we get a discrepancy.
      It's impure in the calculations.
      1. A. Privalov
        A. Privalov 7 August 2020 11: 09 New
        -1
        Quote: chenia
        And where did such a decrease come from?

        Any publication about these events has numbers. They do not differ much from source to source. hi
        1. chenia
          chenia 7 August 2020 15: 24 New
          +1
          Quote: A. Privalov
          They do not differ much from source to source.


          Statistics1 Well, yes. A. If you think about it?
          !, 3 ml. Japanese versus 130 thousand Americans. (British, Dutch and other Australians are not included). These are military losses. There are no land battles. (Not what the open press offers, there were three times a day on the Soviet-German front.) Sea battles, so there were not so many seafarers in the Navy, even if the entire fleet went down, until the last midshipman.

          We ruined the Kwantung Army (from 1,5 to 0,9 million, although most likely the Japanese were up to 1,2 million of them, 160 thousand were sent to the Japanese gods at once, 250 thousand must be wounded and 600 thousand were sent on the construction site of communism. The wounded and some of the prisoners most likely went to the Chinese and ... ... evaporated in terrible agony). The Americans did not have anything similar even in the 1/10 version.

          The Kwantung Army is not even a front. this direction (group of fronts), and our three fronts acted against them incredible killing machine... And this is with our experience of the war (and we beat the Japanese before the war, in more significant (land) battles than that of the Yankees), and here the ratio of 8 thousand irrecoverables is understandable for us, and 160 for them.
          And the amers' losses in well-known (land) battles are usually comparable to those of the Japanese. And there weren't so many crew members.
          Well, where did the statistics come from?
          1. A. Privalov
            A. Privalov 7 August 2020 15: 39 New
            -1
            Quote: chenia
            Statistics1 Well, yes. A. If you think about it?

            In other words, are you claiming that we were deceived for 75 years? That all the many volumes and studies during this time are lies?
            Do you rely only on your own thoughts or on some kind of scientific research?
            1. chenia
              chenia 7 August 2020 16: 30 New
              +1
              Quote: A. Privalov
              In other words, are you claiming that we were deceived for 75 years?


              Yes, we are constantly being deceived. Or is this news to you?
              For example, we already have 3 or 4 calculations of losses in WWII. And completely different (three calculations were official). Not?
              Or
              For example, the loss of Germany in WWII - 6 million people.
              But Germany is now only 10 million more than in the days of the Reich (and this is with the Turks and all sorts of others), and Austria has not reached the pre-war level. Why is that? And the growth of the population of the Federal Republic of Germany was until the beginning of the 70s. (Before the recognition of the GDR and the annulment of German citizenship)

              Well, you are prone to analysis, but don't you really feel the discrepancy.

              What should the Japanese do? To tell. that raised their legs with a loss of 0,5 million people. And the spirit of the samurai and other crap. As it does not fit.

              And so, they say, they bombed us with terrible bombs, which (well, if we do not surrender) will destroy all of humanity (well, straight altruists), but the whole world has piled on, well, ir our losses are huge.

              But where these losses come from, you can't explain.
              1. A. Privalov
                A. Privalov 7 August 2020 17: 31 New
                -1
                Does / does not fit, I feel / I don’t feel ...
                Again. Is this your reasoning?
                6,8 million people lived in Austria before the war. Now it's almost 9. What's wrong?
                In Germany in 1939 lived 69 million, now 83. What confuses you? Growth is slow, as is the case throughout Europe. Now Muslims will help them.
                1. chenia
                  chenia 7 August 2020 18: 11 New
                  +1
                  Quote: A. Privalov
                  6,8 million people lived in Austria before the war.


                  That's it. And before WWI there were 11 million Austrians (not all of them lived in Austria). But after WWII, all Austrians and Germans (even from Luxembourg) rushed to their homeland. Isn't it strange to you that suddenly in 1946 there was an Austrian, even more so than before the war?
                  After the war, the expulsion of the Germans (and the Austrians too) began from all places that were not included not only in Germany and Austria, but even in the Reich (91 million people).

                  And about Japan, tell me the land "battles" where there were massive losses of the Japanese (well, so that would be more than three tens of thousands).
                  Although, you can not strain, it is no longer interesting.
                  1. A. Privalov
                    A. Privalov 7 August 2020 18: 31 New
                    -1
                    Before the First World War, there was no Austria. More than 50 million people lived in Austria-Hungary. I do not have statistics on the Austrians proper, but even before World War II, after the Anschluss and all sorts of Austrians' annexation, it is also not easy to count.
                    I'm not a connoisseur of Japan in the 30s - 40s. Can't name the battles. My specialization is the Middle East. But I do not believe in the conspiracies of the reptilians who concealed the truth and malicious statisticians who manipulate the numbers to please the World Government.
                    1. chenia
                      chenia 7 August 2020 19: 07 New
                      +1
                      Quote: A. Privalov
                      there was no Austria.


                      I know. In Israel, not only Jews live, but Jews live not only in Israel.
                      But after WWII from the Balkans, Italy and all sorts of Transylvania, the Austrians, even from western Ukraine (there were also Volksdeutsch there) rushed home (moreover, men could fight in the Wehrmacht).
                      Quote: A. Privalov
                      also not easy to count

                      In, which means you don't have to be so categorical.

                      Quote: A. Privalov
                      I'm not a connoisseur of Japan in the 30s - 40s. Can't name battles


                      I am also not a connoisseur of Japan, but in the past a professional military man. And I did not see the reason for the large losses of the Japanese from the Yankees.
                      Well, if you (this is not for you) give your wife money for a rabbit coat, and she buys a sable coat, you can certainly blunt it. Or are there certain questions?

                      Quote: A. Privalov
                      But also in the conspiracies of reptilians who concealed the truth and malicious statisticians manipulating numbers


                      Well, not as primitive.
                      The question here is how to go down in history and not get caught up in it. Japan's small losses after surrender is to admit that the samurai spirit is a scent. And how to live with it?
                      And you mean the reptilians.
                      .
                      1. A. Privalov
                        A. Privalov 7 August 2020 19: 57 New
                        -1
                        And the whole world is on the side of the valiant samurai, so as not to bring the Lord, no one doubted their bravery?
                        Again. Apart from your doubts, what sources do you rely on?
                2. chenia
                  chenia 7 August 2020 18: 16 New
                  +1
                  Quote: A. Privalov
                  It's almost 9 now.


                  Fixed, however!
            2. chenia
              chenia 7 August 2020 21: 15 New
              +4
              Quote: A. Privalov
              just for your thoughts or for some scientific research?


              Japanese losses.

              Guadalcanal - 20 thousand participated in 3-4 divisions.
              New Georgia - 1 thousand 300
              Tarawa - 4, 5 thousand (there were so many of them against 30 thousand)
              Marshall Islands-17 thousand
              Battle of Cochim - 6 thousand.
              Philippines 5 thousand
              Okinawa - 100 thousand (here, more than 150 thousand groups appear).

              Battalion group battles are no longer interesting.

              For comparison, the Battle of Kursk. - participation of the USSR-1,3 million, Germany (0,9-1 million)
              losses of the USSR - 190 thousand; Germany - more than 100 thousand (according to their data) and 400 thousand according to ours (well, this is also a clear exaggeration) ..

              Where did the Yankees fill 1 million Japanese people.?.
              1. Lontus
                Lontus 9 August 2020 15: 11 New
                +2
                Quote: chenia
                Where did the Yankees fill 1 million Japanese people.?.

                Maybe they consider, along with civilians, killed by bombing in cities?
  • prior
    prior 6 August 2020 11: 59 New
    +1
    It's simple. The Americans could not allow the creation, in addition to the Korean, the creation of the Japanese People's Democratic Republic.
  • Ruby
    Ruby 6 August 2020 13: 14 New
    +2
    Why are we actually surprised that the Americans generally think that it was they who defeated Hitler, and the USSR was on the dance floor. There are also quite a few "writers" who have been brainwashing them for 70 years.
    In any case, it was the Americans who broke the backbone of the Yapam. It was their war, and ours in Europe. What would be interesting for the Kuril airborne operation to end if the Yapas could even deploy those remnants of their fleet that they had by the end of the war.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 6 August 2020 15: 25 New
      +1
      Quote: Yakut
      What would be interesting for the Kuril airborne operation to end if the Yapas could even deploy those remnants of their fleet that they had by the end of the war.

      It just wouldn't start. For the Kuril MDO was carried out by the forces of the Petropavlovsk naval base and the Kamchatka OR - the main forces of the Pacific Fleet from its conduct shied away... For our minelay, a couple of PSKR and other little things, a couple of normal Japanese EVs would be enough.
      Taking into account what a mess was going on when planning and carrying out the operation (which is only worth unloading the paratroopers overboard to a depth of 2,5-3 m, so that these paratroopers in full combat reach the shore by swimming), it is not a fact that the Japanese would be found at all.
  • 5-9
    5-9 6 August 2020 14: 49 New
    -1
    The question of how (more precisely, how much - "how" it is clear, threw stones on the scales "surrender") influenced the USSR by crushing the Kwantung Army with lightning speed, this is a question of what was in the minds of the Japanese leadership (both civilian and military). The fact that X and H, after the March horror in Tokyo, they were not particularly impressed by this unequivocally. If the United States had put this case on stream, once a week washing nuclear weapons one city, then they would have surrendered ... and so ... they could have performed Okinawa for a year, or even two years ... until the last Nippon ... hoping how Hitler for a miracle (Stalin came, the People's Imperial Republic naveide for example) ... their head generally works differently than that of the Abrahamic peoples
    1. Simargl
      Simargl 7 August 2020 03: 41 New
      0
      Quote: 5-9
      If the United States had put this case on stream, once a week washing nuclear weapons one city
      The problem is that almost all major cities were burned out by conventional bombing. And the little ones would disappear entirely.
      1. 5-9
        5-9 7 August 2020 10: 22 New
        0
        Well, then there was no sense in nuclear weapons at all, would you think? Everything is burnt out already ...
        1. Simargl
          Simargl 7 August 2020 11: 04 New
          0
          It makes sense?
          Many people think that there was no point in using atomic bombs.
          By the way, if the Japanese had at least some air defense, the Americans would not bomb the nuclear weapons, because there would be a chance of losing the bomb carrier.
  • Engineer
    Engineer 6 August 2020 15: 17 New
    +1
    Samsonov lost his former form. "Not the same" (c)
    I used to sketch more fun.
    Well, everything is familiar. The bombing is nonsense, the loss of the fleet is nonsense, the threat of famine, the atomic bomb, the loss of conquest, the shattered perimeter, transport and industrial collapse are all nonsense.
    But the defeat of the Manchu army is that very decisive contribution. good
    1. RUnnm
      RUnnm 7 August 2020 07: 35 New
      -1
      Of course not. The loss of the resource base is a trifle. After all, Japan's industry is self-sufficient, right?
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 7 August 2020 09: 51 New
        -2
        Why resources if Japan's industry is not there by August 45? As well as logistics
        1. RUnnm
          RUnnm 7 August 2020 10: 21 New
          -1
          Why such a bold statement in the style of "tattered economy"?
          1. Engineer
            Engineer 7 August 2020 11: 17 New
            -1
            Due to the small, but nevertheless familiarity with the subject
            1. RUnnm
              RUnnm 7 August 2020 11: 44 New
              -1
              Can I ask you to disavow a little the level of this very acquaintance?
              1. Engineer
                Engineer 7 August 2020 12: 05 New
                -1
                Lockwood, Hattori, Fuchida, Horikoshi, EnglishVika
                1. RUnnm
                  RUnnm 7 August 2020 12: 20 New
                  -1
                  I don't even know what to say - Lockwood is a publisher, Hattori is from the 16th century, even the Internet does not know about Furikoshi ... sorry, but what do all these, no doubt, respected people have to do with the economic science of Japan during the Second World War? For comparison, without economists ... I read Sakai's memoirs, or Otohiki's novel, well, I just don't see a hint of confirmation of your statements. Yes, these are not historical documents, but they further refute your theory.
                  1. Engineer
                    Engineer 7 August 2020 12: 44 New
                    -1
                    Better then say nothing laughing
                    Lockwood writer and admiral who commanded submarine forces in the Pacific
                    http://militera.lib.ru/memo/usa/lockwood/pre3.html
                    Hattori is this gentleman from the General Staff
                    http://www.kuriles-history.ru/up/lib/Hattori%20Takusiro_Yaponiya%20v%20voine%201941-1945.pdf
                    Fuchida
                    http://militera.lib.ru/memo/other/fuchida_okumiya/index.html
                    Horikoshi-Horikoshi creator of Zero
                    http://militera.lib.ru/h/zero/index.html
                    If you also add EnglishWik, you can find out the following:
                    The aircraft industry collapsed - in the metropolis by August 5000 aircraft remained, including training
                    There is practically no fuel.
                    Shipbuilding collapsed.
                    The militia is planned to be armed with bamboo lances.
                    2/3 of the textile industry destroyed
                    The 1945 rice harvest is disrupted. The whole country is malnourished. Malnutrition is about to turn into hunger.
                    Pitiful scraps remained from the transport fleet. The ports are full of mines.
                    Aircraft carriers in the waters of the metropolis are dusting transport hubs and everything.
                    1. RUnnm
                      RUnnm 7 August 2020 12: 55 New
                      -1
                      Intrigued. No sarcasm .. very interesting .... the Internet does not know them, except for individual sites. I will definitely try to verify them and get acquainted with the works. But nevertheless, what does the US admiral have to do with describing Japan's ek. Potential? Is it like Kuznetsov describing the German industry? As well as the aircraft designer that you had Furikoshi, who became Horikoshi ... only interesting, but the conventional Petlyakov, knew the details of the ek. Potential of factories that did not work with his design bureau? But one way or another, no memoirs can be historical documents, only objective statistics, dry numbers ..
                      1. Engineer
                        Engineer 7 August 2020 13: 10 New
                        -1
                        the internet doesn't know them

                        You have a strange internet
                        "My" Horikoshi has evolved from your Furikoshi solely thanks to your reading skills.
                        You, not knowing the basic things, demand something like specialized monographs. Do you realize how ridiculous it looks?
                      2. RUnnm
                        RUnnm 7 August 2020 13: 13 New
                        -1
                        Indeed, what am I talking about ?! what monographs of historians, if there is a memoir of the admiral of the Stars and Stripes!
  • 7,62h54
    7,62h54 6 August 2020 15: 27 New
    +1
    The West lives in its own paradigm. And no matter how hard the Russian leadership tries, the guardians of democracy will never recognize Mother Russia as an equal partner.
  • smaug78
    smaug78 6 August 2020 15: 40 New
    0
    Samsonov's quote:
    The decisive factor that forced Japan to lay down arms was the use of nuclear weapons by the Americans.
    There is a bipolar woman.
    Japan's military-industrial potential was not affected by these strikes.
    Samsonov is lying.
    At the same time, they close their eyes to the fact that the Japanese government and military command, despite the use of atomic weapons by the United States, were not going to surrender.

    Emperor Hirohito in his address to the nation on August 15, 1945:
    In addition, the enemy began using new weapons of unprecedented power. This deadly bomb has caused irreparable damage to our land and claimed thousands of innocent lives. If we continue to fight, it will lead not only to the complete destruction of the Japanese nation, but also give a start to the eradication of all mankind. "
    Again the lie of the stupid propagandist Samsonov.
    1. RUnnm
      RUnnm 7 August 2020 07: 33 New
      -2
      Can you tell us about what was discussed at the meeting with the emperor, which preceded this appeal? Or not enough courage ...
      1. smaug78
        smaug78 7 August 2020 09: 56 New
        0
        Can you tell us about what was discussed at the meeting with the emperor, which preceded this address?
        you can talk about anything, the main thing is what the emperor saidhi
        1. RUnnm
          RUnnm 7 August 2020 10: 24 New
          -2
          Form is more important than content ?! Preelessstnoo!
          1. smaug78
            smaug78 7 August 2020 10: 33 New
            0
            I will be happy to read your version ...
            1. RUnnm
              RUnnm 7 August 2020 10: 38 New
              -2
              Nothing, that this discussion began with my "version"? Or do you just have an irrepressible desire to fall into sophistry?
              1. smaug78
                smaug78 7 August 2020 10: 59 New
                0
                Dear, you wrote an answer to my comment on Samsonov's article, there was no version of yours in the answer. So only you are engaged in demagoguery ...
                1. RUnnm
                  RUnnm 7 August 2020 11: 40 New
                  -2
                  Clear. Sometimes it's so convenient not to see anything other than your comments. It happens.
                  1. smaug78
                    smaug78 7 August 2020 11: 49 New
                    0
                    Of course, it's even more convenient to just be smart.
                    1. RUnnm
                      RUnnm 7 August 2020 11: 53 New
                      -2
                      Believe me, even that would be much better than talking nonsense, like you. Sorry, but somehow lost interest in meaningless dialogue. Good luck.
                      1. smaug78
                        smaug78 7 August 2020 12: 17 New
                        0
                        Yes, you are right, it is useless to have a conversation with a demagogue, and even with puffy cheeks. Goodbye smart guy ...
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 6 August 2020 16: 32 New
    +1
    Thus, atomic strikes fell on cities where there were no large military factories and formations of the Japanese army. Japan's military-industrial potential was not affected by these strikes.

    Apparently, the steel plant and the Mitsubishi shipyard in Nagasaki produced only irons and kettles. smile
  • Kwas
    Kwas 6 August 2020 18: 34 New
    +1
    Quote: Alexey RA
    That is, it turns out that the USSR "dragged chestnuts out of the fire for uncle."

    It is strange that no one talks about why we needed it at all. But everything is simple. Would stay aside - China would become pro-American. Well, the taken away was returned.
    1. Octopus
      Octopus 6 August 2020 18: 56 New
      +1
      Quote: Kwas

      It's strange that no one talks about why we needed it at all

      Also, as they say, just not here. But this fact does not fit well with the idea of ​​liberators.
      1. Kwas
        Kwas 6 August 2020 19: 42 New
        +1
        Well, yes, I also say that it is not here. By the way, I fully admit even a partial collusion between the USSR and Japan on this topic, despite the complete absence of facts. Let's just say there was a platform for possible negotiations.
        1. Octopus
          Octopus 6 August 2020 19: 44 New
          0
          Collusion about what? Give China to the Reds?
          1. Kwas
            Kwas 6 August 2020 19: 48 New
            +1
            Well, yes, something like this. You do not resist very much, and for this we will persuade the Americans to save the emperor for you, and by the way, we will not give your soldiers back to us.
            1. Octopus
              Octopus 6 August 2020 20: 16 New
              +1
              Why on earth? What can the Japanese offer to Comrade Stalin? Less losses? Comrade Stalin became famous for avoiding losses?

              What can Comrade Stalin offer the Japanese Foreign Ministry? With whom did the USSR have to agree on Hirohito, with MacArthur? Do you have a good idea of ​​MacArthur?
  • Nikolai Miracles
    Nikolai Miracles 6 August 2020 18: 58 New
    0
    Quote: Bashkirkhan
    In my opinion, after the bombing of Japan, only 1 of atomic bombs remained :) For 1945, nuclear weapons would have played nothing in battles with Japan. There was simply no stock of it and there was still no capacity for the mass production of weapons-grade materials. I would have to fight with conventional weapons.

    Yes, I would. The only question is: whose soldiers? The United States did not have the required number of troops near Japan. The American fleet would have had to land Soviet soldiers under Japanese machine guns and cannons, those who defeated the Kwantung Army.
  • Kwas
    Kwas 6 August 2020 20: 04 New
    +1
    Quote: Nikolai Chudov
    The American fleet would have to land Soviet soldiers under the Japanese machine guns and cannons, those who defeated the Kwantung Army.

    Well, that would only be if they were crazy, because after that Japan would be ours. But ours could have landed themselves, and wanted to, at least in Hokkaido, and it was the Americans who did not allow this.
    1. Nikolai Miracles
      Nikolai Miracles 7 August 2020 05: 16 New
      0
      Stalin wanted to go to Hokkaido after Japan's surrender, and you try before. The main island of Japan is called Honshu, on it too after surrender.
  • Kwas
    Kwas 6 August 2020 20: 36 New
    0
    Quote: Octopus
    What can the Japanese offer to Comrade Stalin?

    They could have done something wrong. Let's say to lie down immediately under the Americans and hand over China to them. By the way, Stalin knew how to count resources (including human resources), and did not like to squander them.
  • Kwas
    Kwas 6 August 2020 20: 44 New
    +1
    Quote: Octopus
    What can Comrade Stalin offer the Japanese Foreign Ministry? With whom did the USSR have to agree on Hirohito, with MacArthur? Do you have a good idea of ​​MacArthur?

    I understand that MacArthur did not make the final decisions of this level. Sometimes there is no need to negotiate with the president. USA is an oligarchic country ...
  • The comment was deleted.
  • RUnnm
    RUnnm 7 August 2020 07: 31 New
    -2
    It's strange. I thought this topic was closed for a long time. I will briefly retell the data from the TacticMedia project, and this is more than a serious resource for this section of history. The main source is the transcript of the meeting with the emperor, at which the issue of surrender was decided. The discussion of the poison bombings took literally the first few paragraphs of this document, and the rest of the time was the loss of Manchuria. But in the text of the appeal to the nation, yes, everything is issued precisely as surrender because of the wunderwaffe
    1. Octopus
      Octopus 7 August 2020 07: 47 New
      0
      Quote: RUnnm
      data from the TacticMedia project, and this more than a serious resource for this section of history

      Is this not the resource of comrade Goblin and Klim Zhukov for an hour?
      1. RUnnm
        RUnnm 7 August 2020 07: 52 New
        -1
        This is an hour, in this particular case, the speech of Doctor of Historical Sciences, military historian A. Isaev. In my opinion, the best modern specialist in this field. I do not like TacticMedia - can you raise his performances at other venues, what are the problems ?!
        1. Octopus
          Octopus 7 August 2020 08: 03 New
          +1
          Quote: RUnnm
          speech by Doctor of Historical Sciences, military historian A. Isaev

          And this is not an employee of the current GlavpUR, that is, excuse me, the Institute of Military History of the RF Ministry of Defense?
          Quote: RUnnm
          the best modern specialist in this field

          You see, I am quite familiar with the activities of Dr. Gilleten, including in those years when he was still working for the love of history, and not on state-owned grubs. In some other matters, his work may be interesting. But specifically on the Soviet-Japanese episode - he is lying. Consider this a value judgment, I will not justify it.
          1. RUnnm
            RUnnm 7 August 2020 08: 28 New
            -2
            Great approach! Please, draw analogies with Glavpur, while reducing your motivation to the favorite principle of the employees of this department - "I have not read, but I condemn!"))? Yes, and about his involvement, too, your hints are untenable - apparently, you did not even listen to his speeches on the Kursk Bulge, Rzhev, etc. So, let me doubt at least some sufficient motivation of your opinion ...
            1. Octopus
              Octopus 7 August 2020 11: 50 New
              +1
              Quote: RUnnm
              Great approach!

              Thank you.
              Quote: RUnnm
              did not read, but condemn

              Quote: RUnnm
              apparently, you did not even listen to his speeches on the Kursk Bulge, Rzhev

              Quote: Octopus
              You see, I am quite familiar with the activities of Dr. Gilleten.

              Quote: Octopus
              In some other matters, his work may be interesting

              Careful, please. If you do not know, in Isaev it is dr-guillotin, it would be fashionable to ask.

              I am not writing about Rzhev, but about specifically his position on Japan. For quite a long time she has been a variant of the tale about Churchill, who has gone mad with fear and the shifted Vistula-Oder. According to Isaev, Roosevelt and Truman, insane with fear, were ready to give anythingif only the valiant Red Army would help them cope with the terrible Japanese. At the same time, he demonstratively avoids the idea that American sources should be taken for Americans.
              1. RUnnm
                RUnnm 7 August 2020 11: 57 New
                -2
                Sorry, but you lied again! Not a single speech by Isaev was close to your statements. On the contrary, for example, in the matter of further advancement to the islands of Japan, he has an opinion opposite to your references to his statements. So, if you please stop broadcasting your conjectures, but if you please operate with facts
                1. Octopus
                  Octopus 7 August 2020 12: 43 New
                  +1
                  Quote: RUnnm
                  Sorry, but you lied again!

                  Will not forgive.
                  Quote: RUnnm
                  Not a single speech by Isaev and anyone close to your statements was

                  Yes, this is my own interpretation of his words. I do not forbid you to familiarize yourself with the original.
                  Quote: RUnnm
                  on the issue of further advancement to the islands of Japan, he is of the opposite opinion

                  Once again, be careful. I never said a word about the islands.
                  Quote: RUnnm
                  Excellent understanding of how modern historiography works !!!

                  Thank. Unfortunately, this idea is not obvious to everyone. You, for example, rely on Isaev in the war between America and Japan.
                  Quote: RUnnm
                  We take the sources of the USSR and we get the Wehrmacht destroyed three times

                  And here for some reason you take Soviet sources on German affairs.
                  Quote: RUnnm
                  Oh, yes ... I almost forgot - this is the USA, and they never embellished their actions ...

                  Not only did they decorate, they lied quite a lot.

                  Who didn't lie? RF Defense Ministry employees?
                  1. RUnnm
                    RUnnm 7 August 2020 13: 00 New
                    -2
                    Congratulations, you are like that old Kant who destroyed the previous grounds for refuting you and created a new one!)))
                    1. Octopus
                      Octopus 7 August 2020 17: 00 New
                      0
                      Quote: RUnnm
                      Congratulations, you are like that old Kant

                      Thank. It is always pleasant to communicate with a positive person.
              2. RUnnm
                RUnnm 7 August 2020 11: 59 New
                -2
                Bravo!! "... American sources should be taken for Americans. !!!" Excellent understanding of how modern historiography works !!! Cross data comparison ?! What are you talking about? We take the sources of the USSR and get the Wehrmacht destroyed three times .... Bravo !!!! Oh yes ... I almost forgot - this is the USA, and they never embellished their actions ...
  • Kwas
    Kwas 7 August 2020 07: 39 New
    +1
    Quote: Nikolai Chudov
    Stalin wanted to go to Hokkaido after Japan's surrender, and you try before.

    Where does the infa come from? I've read about the fact that the landing was prepared just before, counting on resistance.
    1. Nikolai Miracles
      Nikolai Miracles 7 August 2020 20: 38 New
      0
      The landing was prepared by the coalition forces: https://inosmi.ru/history/20180128/241272908.html

      On Soviet claims to Hokkaido. From the correspondence between Stalin and Truman

      Stalin to Truman. August 16, 1945

      “To include all the Kuril Islands in the area of ​​surrender of the Japanese armed forces to the Soviet troops ...

      Include the northern half of the island of Hokkaido, adjacent in the north to the La Perouse Strait, located between Karafuto and Hokkaido, in the area of ​​the surrender of the Japanese armed forces to the Soviet troops. Draw the demarcation line between the northern and southern half of Hokkaido Island along a line running from the mountains. Kushiro on the east coast of the island to the city of Rumoe on the west coast of the island, with the inclusion of these cities in the northern half of the island ...

      I would very much like my modest wishes set out above to be met with no objections. "

      Truman to Stalin. August 18, 1945.

      "With regard to your proposal for the surrender of the Japanese armed forces on the island of Hokkaido to the Soviet armed forces, then ... General MacArthur surrendered the Japanese armed forces on all the islands of Japan proper: Hokkaido, Honshu, Shikoku and Kyushu."



      Stalin to Truman. August 22, 1945.

      “I understand the content of your message in the sense that you refuse to satisfy the Soviet Union's request to include the northern half of Fr. Hokkaido in the area of ​​the surrender of the Japanese armed forces to the Soviet troops. I must say that my colleagues and I did not expect such an answer from you. "

      https://gorod-812.ru/stalin-byil-nedovolen-chto-sssr-ne-otdali-hokkaydo-i-ne-povesili-imperatora/
      Stalin's correspondence with Roosevelt and Truman
      :
      http://hrono.ru/libris/stalin/stalin1945_2.php
      1. Kwas
        Kwas 7 August 2020 21: 18 New
        +1
        But the correspondence does not at all refute the fact that preparations for the landing began earlier. And a reference to a Japanese tabloid source, well, somehow not very ...
        1. Nikolai Miracles
          Nikolai Miracles 8 August 2020 08: 05 New
          0
          The correspondence shows that Stalin asked Truman to go to Hokkaido after Hirohito's order to surrender.
          The "boulevard" source shows the scale of the planned amphibious operation, the USSR leased 145 American ships, but only 10 of them were actually used for the landing. This "hang up" was not required.
          1. Kwas
            Kwas 8 August 2020 11: 35 New
            0
            The correspondence shows that he wanted to agree on the zones of occupation, because in Yalta and Potsdam they did not stipulate, and without this he would still have to leave, as the Yankees had to leave from some parts of Germany. Truman sent him, and even the greyhound asked for a base in the Kuril Islands. At this point Stalin sent him, apparently at that very moment realizing that there would be no continuation of Roosevelt's policy. ...
            1. Nikolai Miracles
              Nikolai Miracles 8 August 2020 13: 51 New
              0
              The Yankees had to leave because they had agreed in advance.
              Stalin was late to negotiate Japan. It would be another matter if the landing operation had taken place.
  • Uncle Izya
    Uncle Izya 7 August 2020 07: 42 New
    -1
    Yes, really, the Red Army on the territory of Japan was not necessary to rewrite history.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Knell wardenheart
    Knell wardenheart 7 August 2020 12: 35 New
    +2
    The US Navy and Air Force played a key role in the victory over Japan. It was these guys who ground the most combat-ready and technologically equipped part of Japanese militarism, inflicted irreparable losses on Japanese industry in the metropolis and on the Japanese merchant and military fleet.

    I was always amazed by the dualism of our views - on the one hand, we say - aa, the second front in Europe was bullshit, because we ground most of the enemy's formations, on the other hand, we claim that we made a decisive contribution to the victory over Japan through the defeat of the Kwantung army.
    Thank God we did not have to face the Japanese fleet when we were conducting our brisk landing operations - because this fleet has long been feeding the fish.
    For those who like to tie the surrender to some kind of "red dates" - for many months before that, Japan had a severe shortage of fuel, metals, transport fleet, timber, there were interruptions in food even in large cities - these guys trained a militia of women with bamboo lances and Boys with dynamite bombs tied to their bodies sent thousands of balloons with incendiary bombs towards the United States, made disposable gliders filled with explosives from particle boards and charged suicide bombers there on a voluntary-compulsory basis. They do not fight in this "form", it is the quintessence of heroic impotence, and Japan came to this form not thanks to us or our actions - but thanks to the methodical pressure of the United States.
    Like Hitler, who hoped for the "Wenck army" there, especially killed samurai hoped for peace negotiations through the Soviet side - and when we "de facto" entered the war with Japan - this party was taken out with our feet and groaning about how bad it is to start slaughter in someone else's territory, and to end on their own - they handed over everything with giblets without reference to any dates. The Japanese take a long time to think and are very stubborn (if not worse).
    So let's have no illusions ..
  • iouris
    iouris 7 August 2020 13: 57 New
    0
    Too strong a statement, which, unfortunately, could not be substantiated. It is wrong to consider the issue in terms of "either the Red Army or the atomic bomb". In the end, Japan's surrender was inevitable. The brilliantly carried out operation against the puppet state of Manchukuo and the Kwantung Army allowed the US Army to avoid huge (by US standards) losses. However, the USA managed to "push back" the USSR from the victory over Japan. Formally (legally), only the United States won the victory over Japan.
  • BAI
    BAI 7 August 2020 16: 53 New
    +1
    This question is somewhat similar to the assessment of the role of Lend-Lease. As there are disputes about whether the USSR would have won without Lend-Lease, so this topic would have surrendered Japan without the USSR entering the war.
  • Tom Johnson
    Tom Johnson 14 August 2020 16: 07 New
    0
    The Pacific was "won" by the 6,000 warships built by the US.