Algeria was the first Chinese clone of the American ATGM Javelin

The first buyer of the Chinese "clone" of the American Javelin ATGM - the HJ-12 Red Arrow anti-tank complex - was the Algerian Ministry of Defense. TsAMTO reports about it with reference to publications of some world mass media.

According to the newspaper, the Algerian armed forces were the first to receive the HJ-12 Red Arrow anti-tank complex developed by the Chinese corporation NORINCO (China North Industries Group).

At the end of March this year, the corporation announced the start of export deliveries of ATGMs. Moreover, the first buyer of the complex was not named for certain reasons. The corporation said in a statement that this delivery is the first export delivery of an anti-tank weapons 3rd generation developed by a Chinese company. Only in July, China Defense Blog reported that the Algerian Armed Forces were the first to acquire the HJ-12 complex.

It should be noted that the complex HJ-12 Red Arrow even looks similar to the American ATGM FGM-148 Javelin. In an embodiment for use by infantry units, the Chinese-made system is a transport and launch container with characteristic large end caps and a unit of equipment for searching for targets and aiming. The rocket is launched from the shoulder, as when using anti-tank rocket launchers.

According to Jane's, the weight of the transport launch container (TPK) with the HJ-12 rocket is approximately 17 kilograms. The total weight of the complex (container and equipment block) is 22 kg. The length of the container is 1,25 m, the diameter is about 170-180 mm. The guidance system is automatic (fired - forgot). The defeat of the target can go along two trajectories: in the side (frontal) projection or from above. The missile of the HJ-12 complex carries a tandem cumulative warhead. Representatives of the NORINCO company claim that this product is capable of piercing up to 1100 mm of homogeneous steel armor, covered by dynamic protection.

Comments

[Reserve buildbat]

For some reason, in the photo I first read "Red Alert"
In general, it would be interesting to know the real characteristics of this product.

[Insurgent]

Quote: Stroibat stock

For some reason, in the photo I first read "Red Alert"

Well, this form of Western representation of power "late USSR", but in fact Russia, as it is done in the video based on the game" Red Alert 3 ", can probably be proud ...

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Stroibat stock

For some reason, in the photo I first read "Red Alert"

Correctly read, oh now in the west the screeching will rise.

[Livonetc]

"1100 mm of homogeneous armor covered with dynamic protection."
Is it really possible to penetrate such armor protection now?
And what about booking and dynamic protection?
Not in the subject in detail, but surprised however ...

[Kart]

The Chinese copy of the Javelin penetrates 1100 mm of the Chinese copy of the homogeneous armor.
Only so, and nothing else.

[donavi49]

Why not? 6 inch Cornet rocket:
Penetration for DZ:
Cornet-E - 1200 mm Homogeneous Armor
Cornet-D - 1300 mm Homogeneous Armor

And then there is practically another inch more - which means that a more powerful cumulative part can be shoved in.

[5-9]

170 mm is the outer diameter of the tube, not the caliber of the rocket ....

[donavi49]

Well, then the rocket is also 6-inch, again Cornet 1200-1300, while China has 1100. Nothing unusual.

[5-9]

Nuuuuu ... As a kuma, we were ahead of the rest of the world and we are ... At 1100 in 152 mm and the USA cannot. 950 at Tou2. Therefore, the fighters hit the roof ..

[mvg]

Therefore, the roof-breakers hit

Only fools break into a closed door if there is an open window.

[5-9]

Open ???? Therefore, they came up with 2 cores, but hitting in one place, in TOU-2?
The reserve action is small, more difficult ... this is only if you cannot in the warhead, which is full of holes ...

[Thrifty]

Livonian -In general, it is possible to pierce thicker armor, but it is doubtful that this would be within the capabilities of this Chinese ATGM. It has already happened that one country declared one meter of armor pierced, and as a result of the shelling, only 78 centimeters came out! And, the Chinese can write any number, then they will dump the shoals on the Algerians, in bad weather, or turn on the back "they misunderstood us" ...

[Senka naughty]

And what about booking and dynamic protection?
Not in the subject in detail, but surprised however ...

Tandem ammunition - the design of the striking element of a firearm, in which a projectile consists of two charges placed in series. The charge placed in the head is called the leading, and in the tail - the main.

When the target is hit, the leading charge is detonated first, providing penetration of the upper (outer) layer of the target's protection (in particular, the activation of dynamic protection). The main charge ensures the destruction of deep layers of armor and the direct destruction of equipment

Vicki works wonders however.

[Livonetc]

Thank you.
However, the next question.
What then is the armor, coupled with dynamic protection?
I know about the eternal confrontation between armor and a projectile.
It simply claims to have penetrated 1100 mm of armor covered with reactive armor.
Does the wiki answer this question (except for the thesis about the confrontation between projectile and armor)?

[Grazdanin]

Quote: Livonetc

It simply claims to have penetrated 1100 mm of armor covered with reactive armor.
Does the wiki answer this question (except for the thesis about the confrontation between projectile and armor)?

The answer was given. The lead charge destroys dynamic protection, the main charge penetrates armor.

[Livonetc]

You did not quote the question itself.
A question.
"Why then, the armor, coupled with dynamic protection."
And please do not offer an answer about the eternal confrontation between armor and a projectile.

[Thrifty]

Livonian -so it depends on the thickness of the armor, because the dynamic protection on the BMP is a type of complacency that the crew will have time to escape if they suddenly "arrive"! but also get out of fire, and probably even without significant damage to the tank.

[Livonetc]

Then let's take into consideration the Armata.
The armor is equivalent to 1000 mm of homogeneous armor and some kind of dynamic armor of a new generation.
How is it?
Javelin and the aforementioned Chinese item cope?
What am I really for.
Like a Javelin and even more so a Chinese product, they have a cost that allows serious countries to "saturate" their troops.
A modern tank is a very expensive product and, moreover, a crew.

[5-9]

You do not take into account that the resistance from OBPS and kuma of one obstacle is different, against kuma by 30 or 40 percent higher.
1000 or more for T-14 from OBPS, count one and a half meters from kuma
The reserve effect of kuma, especially at the limit of penetration, is low

[Thrifty]

Livonian, according to T14, the booking numbers, although secret, are higher than those given by you! Moreover, there is an additional armored capsule, the crew is placed in it, and all this is protected by both dynamic protection and KaZom - an active protection complex - that is, the probability of penetrating this "super sandwich" with modern weapons is scanty, almost zero. That is, not Spike, not Javelin, nor Chinese, not Indian paddle will not "take" it!

[The Word of the Word]

The cost of the Javelin launcher is $ 200, one rocket is $ 000. It was like this before, now it is probably even more expensive. Few countries can afford to saturate their troops with such "golden weapons")

[5-9]

In this size, the Chinese definitely do not ...
Hellfire 1100 will master. Cornet - 1400 for DZ. Whirlwind with Attack too.

[Thrifty]

5-9 armor T14, plus d / z and kaz to any modern anti-tank weapon does not give any chance of a through penetration of the tank.

[Mountain shooter]

Algerians will experience? And the real characteristics will be published? Then maybe we'll find out something ...

[Thrifty]

Mountain shooter - the Algerians will simply renounce Chinese military crafts, more precisely, fakes, to buy

[Vol4ara]

Quote: Thrifty

Mountain shooter - the Algerians will simply renounce Chinese military crafts, more precisely, fakes, to buy

Why?

[Thrifty]

Volçara -because cheap is not quality! One country in Latin America bought Chinese radars that were chronically blind, seeing nothing in the air, and then returned these radars to the Chinese. Yes, and we with their engines for our navy got burned, because in the end, almost all of them were out of order, in other words, they fell apart!

[donavi49]

Only they buy and buy, more and more. We started with the fleet, 3 patrol boats + a contract for the modernization of shipyards in Algeria + a contract for equipping an Algerian national corvette + a contract for developing an Algerian national corvette, equipping it and assisting in construction in Algeria (they say 056 will be modified)

Then the UAV

Then multi-caliber batch MLRS

Then the Chinese MSTY with a 155mm cannon and a bunch of all sorts of clones from Krasnopols to Excaliburs.

And now, the new leadership is generally in favor of all-round friendship with China, massive purchases of everything from there. A stream of 120mm mortars on an SM4 wheeled chassis, DWL 002 detection systems, Chinese Aroids for all kinds of specialists, Chinese wearable automatic grenade launchers.

[Vol4ara]

Quote: Thrifty

Volçara -because cheap is not quality! One country in Latin America bought Chinese radars that were chronically blind, seeing nothing in the air, and then returned these radars to the Chinese. Yes, and we with their engines for our navy got burned, because in the end, almost all of them were out of order, in other words, they fell apart!

What does the cheap have to do with it? Here I have a laptop from China, 3 years ago I took it for 54tr, a vacuum cleaner from China for 18. I can tell you a secret, but if you decide to buy a laptop for 14, and a vacuum cleaner for 3, it doesn't matter where you buy it, in China or in the USA, and there and there for this price the goods will be shit. It's time to move away from the prejudices that everything in China is cheap and everything is bullshit, bullshit is there only for the prices that you want to see

[Thrifty]

Volçara -After the Chinese smart went into himself forever, I gave up with their technique! Both smartphones are Korea, and the laptops are Malaysia! By the way, my vacuum cleaner is still native from a European company, and it still works great! !!

[Vol4ara]

Quote: Thrifty

Volçara -After the Chinese smart went into himself forever, I gave up with their technique! Both smartphones are Korea, and the laptops are Malaysia! By the way, my vacuum cleaner is still native from a European company, and it still works great! !!

I have a sony xperia x performans, it cost about 35 at the time of purchase. My father bought xiaomi about 4 months ago. My next phone will be xiaomi, the difference is 15 mowers, and the Chinese is better, the camera is just 54 megapixel, and the photo post-processing program is 100 times better

[gorecc]

because Russia doesn’t have such, so we need to shit the Chinese. It's just that someone is still stuck in the early 2000s, well, or either just spews bile out of envy, a typical picture for VO
there was recently news that the Serbs bought Chinese air defense systems, so how much bile was poured onto these complexes, and all because they did not buy from their brothers)

[Thrifty]

Highlander - how do you know if we have such complexes? Moreover, we are actively developing another direction, the so-called "roaming ammunition", which themselves can choose a target, or be easily re-aimed at a more dangerous object on the battlefield than a simple tank!

[gorecc]

do you have to be an expert to know that there is no 3rd generation ATGM in service with Russia?)

[Vol4ara]

Quote: Thrifty

Highlander - how do you know if we have such complexes? Moreover, we are actively developing another direction, the so-called "roaming ammunition", which themselves can choose a target, or be easily re-aimed at a more dangerous object on the battlefield than a simple tank!

Do the infantry launch barrage ammunition from the shoulder? ))

[Thrifty]

Volchars - they can be launched from a drone, fired from MLRS, launched like a regular drone. Perhaps, over time, they will launch from the shoulder, they are not much heavier than shots to the ATGM!

[The Word of the Word]

The Serbs stated that they did not have money for the S-400 and therefore they were forced to buy Chinese-made air defense systems with much more modest performance characteristics.
Javelin is not an anti-tank wunderwolf, in comparison with other ATGMs, it has not only advantages, but also serious disadvantages, but why should you study the performance characteristics and features of the use of weapons if you can tear your throat in the comments?}

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Thrifty

Mountain shooter - the Algerians will simply renounce Chinese military crafts, more precisely, fakes, to buy

Chinese rockets are no longer Chinese incandescent bulbs.

[svp67]

Quote: Mountain Shooter

Algerians will experience? And the real characteristics will be published? Then maybe we'll find out something ..

There are enough of our military experts ... so that we find out and quickly

[Kurare]

Quote: Mountain Shooter

Algerians will experience?

And you think that the Algerians did not test before buying, i.e. did you originally buy a pig in a poke?

[Magic archer]

Plus, the price tag for the Chinese clone is much lower. It would be interesting to compare him with the real Javelin.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Magic Archer

It would be interesting to compare him with the real Javelin.

Soon it will be possible to compare when non-brothers replace "Javelin" with vodka.

[gorecc]

it's not just the price tag. As far as I understand, the United States does not sell anything to Algeria. On the contrary, they supply their geopolitical enemy in the person of Morocco ..

[newcomer]

The declared characteristics are impressive. If the complex approached Algeria, then it was tried / tested.

[evgen1221]

I remember on the site moaning that we do not have an ATGM of the Jewelin class, let it go. An example was given to Jevu. And what appeared? If not, what would not ask the Chinese to share the assembly technology?

[donavi49]

So it is also necessary to share the spike, it also does not exist, but the Chinese are already in the army and even the Indians are scared.


And they are actively selling on different chassis.

[Conrad]

But this is not Spike! This is some kind of crap with TV guidance and control over the wires! The start-up frames clearly show the control wire! I will never believe that a wire-guided missile can have a range of 20 km!

[donavi49]

Spike is also on the wire. This is the basic section of the flight, it comes with a signal, and there is already a choice of radio or wire. For example, MR on a wire.

NLOS on the channel.

[APASUS]

I doubt that ours do not have Javelin ATGMs, but the release of 3rd generation ATGMs will not be established in any way. But China was able, like India.
Here is a question for you about import substitution, modernization, science and other other stuff in Russia

[Herman 4223]

Or maybe they didn’t do it because there was no order from the Ministry of Defense. That's why they didn't.

[APASUS]

Quote: Herman 4223

Or maybe they didn’t do it because there was no order from the Ministry of Defense. That's why they didn't.

Are you serious ?

[Herman 4223]

Are there any other options?
What's the problem with creating it?

[Grazdanin]

Quote: Herman 4223

What's the problem with creating it?

There is such magic, called microelectronics.

[Herman 4223]

Don't write, we're not that backward. We do things no less complicated than javelin.
There is no initiative to create it and no order from the army. There is no other reason.

[Thrifty]

Citizen - there is such a concept as a justified need, so we seemingly, and decided to prioritize barroding ammunition, because they are more "flexible" in use, they can be in the air for a long time, they can be easily re-targeted to another target. ..

[APASUS]

Quote: Herman 4223

What's the problem with creating it?

The problem is in creating an infrared homing head with a cooled matrix, we have not yet succeeded

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: APASUS

The problem is in creating an infrared homing head with a cooled matrix, we have not yet succeeded

Hmmm ... IC.GSN with cooled matrix ... yesterday! Now they are trying to make IK.GSN with an uncooled matrix!

[APASUS]

Quote: Nikolaevich I

Hmmm ... IC.GSN with cooled matrix ... yesterday! Now they are trying to make IK.GSN with an uncooled matrix!

I agree that yesterday, but we do not even produce GOS with a cooled matrix ..

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: APASUS

The problem is in creating an infrared homing head with a cooled matrix, we have not yet succeeded

The HJ-12 comes with a TV seeker too!

[APASUS]

Quote: Nikolaevich I

The HJ-12 comes with a TV seeker too!

And which of you is right?

The HJ-12 uses an infrared seeker. Before launch, the aiming equipment of the complex sends data about the target to the seeker and the autopilot, after which it is captured. The flight to the target takes place in a completely autonomous mode.

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: APASUS

The HJ-12 comes with a TV seeker too!

And which of you is right?
The HJ-12 uses an infrared seeker. Before launch, the aiming equipment of the complex sends data about the target to the seeker and the autopilot, after which it is captured. The flight to the target takes place in a completely autonomous mode.

Duc, I did not reject IK.GSN! The "emphasis", of course, is placed on the IK.GSN ... but the target acquisition range of the IK.GSN HJ-12 is 2 km, which is 0,5 km less than that of the "base" Javelin ... "Engine "the HJ-12 drives the ATGM up to 4 km ... In order to use the engine's capabilities to the fullest and not to give a" head start "to the javelin in terms of range, a television seeker with a capture range of up to 4 km has been developed ... These performance characteristics were given in the very first reports about the HJ-12 ...!

[Andrey.AN]

There are other options, for example, extraneous guidance, no problem, except that any rearmament picks up a capricious balance.

[donavi49]

This is a promising export direction. Can be sold to a bunch of countries. The number of potential buyers is under a hundred, especially those to whom the Americans do not sell.

If there was an opportunity to do it on time, for sane money, they would do it with their own or credit money.

[Herman 4223]

What is the financial situation of our enterprises that are engaged in such things, this is not a question for me. It's obvious to me that risking money and building a production line isn't cheap, they just don't want to. Perhaps the owner of these enterprises keeps money not in rubles and not in Russia, they keep someone tightly for their finances, and there is no initiative as a result.

[Grazdanin]

Quote: Herman 4223

Perhaps the owner of these enterprises keeps money not in rubles and not in Russia,

Does Rostec have money not in rubles?

[donavi49]

RPG-32 - in Russia 0 and MO are not particularly interesting, but in Jordan, production, Turkey, Egypt, the United Arab Emirates are bought.

Or another example, Mi-26T2, MO was satisfied with the old version, with easy modernization. But they spent, tortured T2, at the expense of their own funds, loans and investments + a start order from Algeria. As a result, the Ministry of Defense also ordered 10 helicopters in the T2 version modified to meet the requirements, it even gave money for revisions. And this is not just an index, but a major modernization, which was first bought by Algeria and Jordan, and then only by the Moscow Region.

[Herman 4223]

Somewhere they fuss, but somewhere a kick is needed, that's all.

[gorecc]

Indeed, why does the Russian anti-tank gun of the 3rd generation, but who needs it)
you can also write that this is not a problem, but it is simply financially unprofitable ... it is so fashionable here, to blame everything on finances, than to admit that in many regions Russia is very far behind the West, and now it is lagging behind China too ..

[sevryuk]

Quote: APASUS

Here is a question for you about import substitution, modernization, science and other other stuff in Russia

What's with the polymers? And why is there no Putin in the space between the boxes?

[Avior]

The main subtlety in the guidance system when hitting from above.
In fact, the system must hit an object that, when aiming, it sees only from the side, and which looks completely different from above in the IR range.
How much the Chinese did it, that's what's interesting.

[Thrifty]

Avior is the main thing, it is the protection of the seeker, and from above the tanks are simply the least protected.

[Avior]

That is why they shoot from above, but technically it is not easy.
And what kind of protection of the GOS, do not understand?

[Thrifty]

Avior is interference-proof, for, for example, the Israelis have a TV channel, unlike a dart, a spike gives the operator video information in real time, and a javelin is a shot, and then it depends only on the hsn whether the target will be hit! And suppressing it seems to be easy, and then the rocket will not restore the signal, unlike the spike, where the transmission channels of the signal are protected. If there is no signal at all, the missile will self-destruct!

[Avior]

Javelin autonomous after launch
It is not difficult to suppress anaccount - this is only verified by practice
It is not easy to suppress the matrix GOS.

[Thrifty]

Avior - only one thing but - it is cooling the gsn with liquid nitrogen, which takes 40 seconds, and during this time the target can leave the firing zone, and it will be impossible to retarget the missile, unlike the spike.

[Avior]

It is still impossible to retarget a few seconds after launch
The javelin is cooled before launch, so it can be re-aimed too, even easier.
But Spike is a separate topic.

[Andrey.AN]

Nothing interesting, on approach the rocket specifies the coordinates, then goes to the coordinates of the given tolerance without looking, according to inertial guidance.

[NF68]

The Chinese are not weak.

[Piramidon]

developed by the Chinese corporation NORINCO (China North Industries Group) anti-tank complex HJ-12 Red Arrow

How can a clone (copy) be DEVELOPED?

[Cristall]

Quote: Piramidon

How a clone (copy) can be DEVELOPED

even having complete information, you also need to "work"
and the Chinese have everything "developed" .. Even if an explicit copy.
They do not admit it. But this is the easiest path of development.
Copy, do as I do, repeat success (a common biological program for children and people as well)

[Viktor Sergeev]

1100 mm of what kind of armor? Ukrainian? Then it is quite possible. Jewelin is already outdated and so-so, and a degraded clone will clearly suck.

[Pavel57]

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