Military Review

Feat Marinesko and tragedy “Gustloffa”

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Feat Marinesko and tragedy “Gustloffa”



30 January 1945 year, the submarine "C-13" at the command of Alexander Marinesko sank the German ship "William Gustlov." According to various sources, from 4 to 8 thousand people died then. This is still the most terrible sea disaster. Why didn’t Marinesco be given the title Hero of the Soviet Union, and was the feat of his crew really a feat, or were German civilians on board?

We turn first to the official Soviet sources:

The C-13 submarine under the command of captain 3 rank A.I. Marinesko 30 on January 1945 sank to the north-west of Danzig Bay, the German airliner Wilhelm Gustlov displaced in 25 484 tons, on board which was over XNNX tons, on board which was over XNNX tons, onboard which was more than XNNX toned on 6 9 13 14 660 13. The Admiral Hipper cruiser, destroyers and minesweepers could no longer provide any assistance to the transport. Fearing the attacks of Soviet boats, they hurriedly retreated to the west. The same C-XNUMX submarine sank the ship "February." Steuben "with a displacement of XNUMX XNUMX tons. For military success in this campaign, the submarine C-XNUMX was awarded the Order of the Red Banner. "

That's all that is said about the achievements of Marinesko in "Stories Of the Great Patriotic War of the Soviet Union 1941-1945 ". You should pay attention to the words" 6 thousand people "and" ship ".
But he wrote in his opus "Sea Captain" (publishing house "Soviet Writer", 1984) politician A. Kron:

"On January 30, 1945, the S-13 submarine under the command of the 3rd rank captain A. I. Marinesko sank a giant fascist airliner in the Stolpmünde area fleet "William Gustlov" with a displacement of 25 tons, on board of which were more than seven thousand fascists evacuated from Danzig under the blows of the advancing Soviet troops: soldiers, officers and senior representatives of the Nazi elite, executioners and punishers. More than three thousand trained submariners — about seventy crews for new submarines of the Hitler fleet — were on Gustlova, which had served as a naval base for a diving school before going to sea. In the same campaign, Marinesco torpedoed a large military transport "General Steuben", 484 soldiers and officers of the Wehrmacht were transported from Koenigsberg on it. "

And now the "Big Encyclopedic Dictionary", 1997:

MARINESKO Al-dr Iv. (1913-63), submariner, captain of the 3 rank (1942), Hero of the Soviet Union (1990, see). In the Great Patriotic War, commanding the submarine "S- 13 "(1943-45), drowned in the district of Danzig Bay 30 Jan. 1945 is mute. Superliner" Wilhelm Gustlov "(who had on board St. 5 thousands of soldiers and officers, including approx. 1300 submariners) and February 10 - auxiliary cruiser "General Steuben" (St. 3 thousand soldiers and officers). After the war, he worked in Leningrad Shipping Company, then on s-de. "

There is a trend - first in Gustlov, according to official historiography, there were 6 thousand PEOPLE, then Krona 7 thousand FASCISTS, among which over 3 thousand submariners, and finally again in the official source - 5 thousand soldiers and officers, among which only 1300 submariners. As for the "Steuben", which is called the steamer, it is a major military transport, then the auxiliary cruiser (and Kron in his opus called it just a cruiser), the Germans called auxiliary cruisers civilians armed with 5-7 guns.

It is not known who first launched the bike about declaring Marinesko Hitler's personal enemy and about mourning after the sinking of “Gustlov”. According to Soviet sources, mourning was, according to German - no. However, there is no doubt that indeed no other such small unit destroyed such a large number of German citizens at one time. Even during the famous bombardment of Dresden, when the 250 of thousands of inhabitants were killed, several thousand pilots participated in it. However, neither then nor after the sinking of “Gustlov” was mourning declared - the Germans did not advertise these losses in order not to give cause for panic among the German population.

So who and how many drowned Marinesko? Several thousand people or fascist executioners or the military? In various sources, the composition of the passengers "Gustlova" varies greatly. By the number of drowned - from 4 to 8 thousands. In terms of composition, they simply say “refugees”, then “refugees and military”, then “refugees, military, wounded and imprisoned”.

The most detailed figures about the passengers "Gustlova" are as follows:

918 military sailors, 373 from the female auxiliary of the fleet, 162 wounded soldiers, 173 crew member (civilian seamen) and 4424 refugee. Total 6050. In addition to these, listed, on board the "Gustlov" managed to get even 2 thousands of refugees. A total of 876 people were saved. Killed 16 officers of the training division of the submarine forces, 390 cadets, 250 female military personnel, 90 crew members, as well as wounded military personnel. Such is the military damage caused by the sinking of the Gustlov.

As for those who drowned at the Steuben, it really (as it was written in Soviet sources) had more than 3 thousand soldiers and officers — 2680 wounded and 100 healthy military personnel, 270 medical personnel, as well as 285 crew members and about 900 refugees. A total of 659 people were saved. Some sources include the Stoiben sinking in the first line of the list of the largest by the number of victims of sea disasters. By the way, the sinking of "Gustlov" is always present on such lists - either in the first or second place in the number of deaths in the entire history of navigation. If in the second place they call "Gustlov", then in the first place they call either the sinking of "Goya" (Soviet submarine L-3 on April 17, 1945) - from 5 to 7 thousand refugees, or the sinking of the ship Cap Arkona (British aviation May 3, 1945), as a result of which 5 thousand prisoners drowned.

Now imagine how this event looked at the historical background.

Germany is irresistibly heading for the abyss. This is understood even by those who until recently shouted "Heil Hitler!" The flames of war are raging in the land of the Third Reich. Soviet Tanks rumble on the roads leading to Berlin, flying fortresses terrify the German soldiers retreating orderly.

In early February, the Heads of the Governments of the Allied Powers met in 1945 in Crimea to discuss measures to ensure the final defeat of fascist Germany and outline ways for a postwar world order.

At the very first meeting in the Livadia Palace in Yalta, Churchill asked Stalin: when would Soviet troops seize Danzig, where are a certain number of German submarines under construction and ready? He asked to speed up the seizure of this port.

The anxiety of the English premiere was understandable. The military efforts of Great Britain and the supply of its population largely depended on shipping. However, wolf packs of fascist submarines continued to rage on the sea lanes. Although, of course, their effectiveness was no longer the same as in the first years of the war, when it turned out that British ships were simply powerless against the threat of German U-shek. Danzig was one of the main nests of the fascist underwater pirates. Here was the German High School of Diving, the floating barracks for which was the liner "Wilhelm Gustlov".

But the English Prime Minister was late with his question. In Danzig, volleys of Soviet guns and Katyushas were already heard. Started a hasty escape the enemy. “Thousands of soldiers, sailors and civilians plunged into the" Wilhelm Gustlov. " Half of the passengers of the liner were highly qualified specialists - the color of the Nazi submarine fleet. Strong security at sea was to ensure the safety of their transition from Danzig to Kiel. The convoy included the cruiser Admiral Hipper, the destroyers and minesweepers. ” So follows from the Soviet post-war sources. In fact, among the 9000 refugees, the overwhelming majority were civilians, otherwise they would have been detained as deserters, or, conversely, reduced to some kind of team. In general, it is strange to assume among the 9000 refugees an absolute absence of some kind of military, for example, one-legged veterans of the Franco-Prussian war. All underwater German elite died 42-44's. And the whole convoy consisted of one (!) Minesweeper.

At the end of January 1945, the Soviet submarine "C-13" under the command of Alexander Marinesko entered the bay of Danzig.

30 January in the sea broke out a violent storm. The cabin of the boat, antennas and periscopes are quickly covered with a thick layer of ice. The commander and commissar peer into the darkness with pain in their eyes. And then the silhouette of a huge vessel appeared.

"C-13" and at about twenty-three o'clock on January 30 attacks the enemy vessel: several torpedoes one after another rush to the target. There is a strong explosion - and "Wilhelm Gustlov" goes to the bottom.

A Hitlerite officer Heinz Schön, who was aboard the liner, in his book "The Death of Wilhelm Gustlav", published in West Germany, confirms that 30 January 1945 was not torpedoed by a Soviet submarine near Danzig which killed more than five thousand people. “If this incident can be considered a catastrophe,” the author writes, “then it was undoubtedly the biggest catastrophe in the history of navigation, compared to which even the death of the“ Titanic ”facing the iceberg in 1913 year om - nothing.

On the Titanic, 1517 people died. This tragedy shook all humanity then. No one regretted about "Wilhelm Gustlov".

Heinz Shep describes in detail the story of the death of the liner:

"Wilhelm Gustloff was under double command - like a ship, the liner was headed by the captain of the merchant fleet Friedrich Petersen, and as a floating unit of the 2 training division of the submarine, the liner was led by a naval officer Wilhelm Zahn.

By the evening of January 22, 1945, the liner was prepared for the voyage and loading of passengers - thousands of exhausted, frostbitten, and injured refugees. The thermometer showed 14 degrees below zero, chaos and collapse reigned around.

In the harbor of Gotenhafn, there were about 60 thousands of refugees, and as soon as the gangways were installed, thousands of people rushed to the assault. During the landing, many children, in the resulting crush, were separated from their parents.

About 400 girls - employees of the women's auxiliary organization of the Navy, aged from 17 to 25 years, climbed on board the ship. They were placed in the swimming pool on the deck of E. Of course, the girls were more than happy, in view of the imminent Soviet occupation of East Prussia, to leave Gotenhafn. On the morning of January 29, another hospital train arrived in Gotenhafn, the wounded were placed on the sun deck.

Now on board was about 7-8 thousands of people, but how many of them were exactly, could not be established to this day. The liner was literally packed, and the cabins, and the corridors and aisles, were crowded.

As an air defense, a pair of anti-aircraft guns was installed on the upper deck. Rescue facilities were provided about 60% of passengers.

On Tuesday, 30 January, 12.30 local time, the 4 tugboat approached the liner and took it from the pier. The weather conditions were bad - wind with a force up to 7 points, temperature 10 degrees below zero, sludge (small loose ice - approx. M. Volchenkova).

I was appointed as an anti-aircraft crew chief. On the way out, icing started on the decks, and we had to constantly clear the tools from the ice. A minesweeper was ahead of the liner to search for and destroy mines. It got dark and it got even colder. Downstairs, the feelings of joy and relief were replaced by depression, because many refugees began to suffer from motion sickness. But the majority considered themselves completely safe, firmly believing that in a couple of days they would reach Stettin or Denmark.

My watch started at 21.00. Everything was quiet and peaceful. And suddenly, somewhere in 21.10, explosions rang out. At first, I thought that we had hit mines. But later he learned that we were struck by torpedoes, released by the Soviet submarine C-13, commanded by Alexander Marinesko. Thousands of people fell into a panic. Many began to jump overboard into the icy waters of the Baltic. First, the ship tilted to the starboard, but then straightened, and at this time another torpedo hit the liner, in the tank area. We were located on the coast of Stolpmünde, Pomerania. Immediately gave the signal SOS and began to release signal flares.

The impact of the second torpedo fell on the area of ​​the vessel on which the swimming pool was located. Almost all the girls died, they literally tore into pieces. I wanted to go back to my cabin and take a few personal items, but it was already impossible. Thousands of people burst from the lower decks to the top, driven from below by streams of water.

Climbing upstairs, people shouted and shoved incessantly and terribly, those who fell were doomed, they were trampled to death. No one could help the helpless - pregnant women and wounded soldiers. Crowds of people took the lifeboats by storm, and there was no question about the execution of the famous commandment “Women and children are the first!”. Nobody obeyed anyone; those who were physically stronger took the upper hand. Many boats covered with ice could not be lowered altogether, and I watched one of the phallines drop near a row of lowered boats, and the boat dumped all people in it down into icy hell. The liner continued to sink into the water with its nose, the tank rails were already under water, and the launch of the boats became even more difficult.

For a while I stood on the sun deck, watching this nightmare. Some families and individuals who have had personal weapon, they preferred to shoot themselves, rather than die a much more painful death in icy water and darkness. And thousands of others continued to cling to the liner, while he continued to dive.

I thought I could not get out. I jumped into the water and began to quickly sail off to the side so that I would not be dragged into the funnel. At first, the cold was not felt at all, and soon I was able to catch hold of the cram of the crowded lifeboat (special rescue lines were stretched along the sides of the lifeboats for this very purpose - auth.). The picture I discovered was truly awful. The children, who were wearing life jackets, turned upside down, and only their helplessly jerking legs stood out above the water. The dead were already swimming around. The air was filled with cries of the dying and calls for help. Two children clung to me, they shouted and called for their parents. I managed to lift them aboard the boat, but they were saved or not, I never found out.

Then I felt my weakness - hypothermia occurred. I was able to hook onto a metal rescue raft - at a distance of about 50 yards from the sinking liner. The nose almost completely plunged, the stern rose into the air, and hundreds of people were still there, screaming wildly. Immersion speed increased. Then, suddenly, there was a dead silence. Wilhelm Gustloff disappeared under the water, taking with them the lives of thousands of people. The largest disaster in the history of navigation lasted approximately 50 minutes.

For about 20 minutes, the scariest minutes of my life, I just swam somewhere. From time to time I was covered with ice slush. The screams around me grew quieter and more and more rare. Then something happened that I consider a miracle. I saw a shadow approaching me and shouted, gathering my last strength. I was noticed and raised on board.

Save me torpedo boat T-36. The crew of the boat helped us, saved, by all available means - hot tea, massage. But many of the rescued were dying on board, from hypothermia and shock. Among those rescued were pregnant women, and it just so happened that the crew members had to try themselves as midwives that night. Born three children. The T-36 was part of a squadron commanded by Lieutenant Herring, whose task was to escort the heavy cruiser Admiral Hipper. The cruiser also came from East Prussia, having refugees on board. Suddenly the boat abruptly changed course, howling cars. As I later found out, we noticed the trail of two torpedoes, one passed on the starboard side, from the other the boat was able to evade a sharp maneuver. The turn was so steep that part of the rescued on the upper deck fell overboard and sank. But the 550 man was saved. Due to the great danger of the submarine’s repeated attack, the boat departed from the crash site and in 02.00 on January 31 arrived in Sashstitz. The rescued were overloaded on board the Prinz Olaf Danish floating hospital, which was anchored there. Many were sent, on stretchers, to the shore. We, the sailors, were placed in the barracks. Lieutenant Herring was on the bridge all the time and saluted when the last rescued left the side of the boat. As I later learned, only 996 people of about 8000 aboard were saved.

We, escaped sailors, once again escaped death. As sailors of the German Navy, we were all comrades, we loved our homeland and believed that we were doing the right thing by protecting it. We did not consider ourselves heroes, and our death is heroic, we just did our duty. "

Ten days later, the boat of Marinesko sank another ship, the liner General von Steuben, 3500 people died ...

Why Marinesko did not give Hero, but almost at the first opportunity fired from the fleet? More than he, none of the Soviet submariners did not. Is it because of drunkenness? Or was it just an excuse, and the motives were different?

Perhaps there was an ordinary policy here. Let's count - a couple of volleys, in one campaign, Marinesko sent to the next world, according to the most conservative estimates, over 10 thousand people! The death of “Gustlova” was the largest sea catastrophe in the history of mankind, “Titanic”, compared with the victorious volleys of Marinesko, looks like a boat turned over on a pond with drunken vacationers. Steeper Marinesko were, perhaps, only the crews of those B-29 that tamed Japan - atomic bombs. But in general, the figures are comparable. Here and there - tens of thousands. Only, however, Marinesko did without atomic bombs, only two at that time on the entire planet. Marinesko and a dozen torpedoes was enough.

It is likely that the destruction of Gustlov was embarrassed, because for the occupied Germany they were preparing batches of bread, they wanted to win over the Germans, and then the death of such a large number of people, partly civil, from the torpedoes of one small submarine.

Finally - about the Marinesko. His mother was Ukrainian, and his father served in his youth as a fireman on a warship of the Royal Romanian Navy. After some quarrel with the authorities, my father fled to Russia and settled in Odessa. The growing up Alexander Marinesko graduated from school as a young man, and then in the thirties - and the Odessa Nautical School. Sailed on ships in the Black Sea. As a long-distance navigator Marinesko was drafted into the Navy and after studying he asked for a submarine.

Always calm, confident, he was very persistent in his skill in achieving his goals. In command of the ship, he never raised his voice, did not shout at his subordinates. All this created for him an unshakable authority, he deserved the love and respect of the sailors.

In contrast to all this, it remains to add that Marinesko was kicked out of the fleet for drunkenness and poor discipline. Marinesko got the job warehouse. They finally got drunk and began to drink drunk state property entrusted to him. He was caught and convicted in 1949 for 3 of the year.

As you can see, Alexander Marinesko is a rather controversial figure. And the feat can be interpreted differently ... Despite all the contradictions, the award nevertheless found a submariner: in 1990, he was posthumously awarded the golden star of the Hero of the Soviet Union.

http://renascentia.narod.ru/

Feat Marinesko and tragedy "Gustloff"

Alexander Marinesko is one of the most controversial figures of the Great Patriotic War, around which controversy has not yet subsided. A man covered with many myths and legends. Unjustly forgotten, and then returned from oblivion.

Today in Russia they are proud of him, perceived as a national hero. Last year a monument to Marinesko appeared in Kaliningrad, his name was entered in the Golden Book of St. Petersburg. Quite a few books have been published on his exploits, among them is the recently published Submariner Number 1 by Vladimir Borisov. And in Germany, he still can not forgive the death of the ship "Wilhelm Gustlof." We call this famous military episode "the attack of the century", while the Germans consider it to be the largest maritime disaster, perhaps even more terrible than the death of "Titanic."

It would not be an exaggeration to say that the name Marinesko in Germany is known to everyone, and the theme of "Gustloff" today, many years later, stirs the press and public opinion. Especially recently, after it came out in Germany and almost immediately became the best-selling novel The Trajectory of the Crab. Its author, a well-known German writer and Nobel Prize winner Günther Grass, opens unknown pages for East Germans to flee to the west, and the Gustloff catastrophe is in the center of events. For many Germans, the book has become a real revelation ...

It is not for nothing that the death of “Gustloff” is called “sheltered tragedy”, the truth about which both sides hid for a long time: we always said that the ship was the color of the German submarine fleet and never mentioned thousands of dead refugees, and the post-war Germans who grew up with a sense of repentance the crimes of the Nazis, silent about this story, because they feared accusations of revanchism. Those who tried to talk about the dead at Gustlof, about the horrors of the Germans fleeing from East Prussia, were immediately perceived as “far right”. It was only with the fall of the Berlin Wall and the entry into a united Europe that it became possible to more calmly look to the east and talk about a lot, which was not customary to recall for a long time ...

Price "attack of the century"

Whether we want it or not, we still don’t get around the question: what did Marinesko drown — the warship of the Hitlerite elite or the refugee ship? What happened in the Baltic Sea on the night of January 30 1945?

In those days, the Soviet army advanced rapidly to the West, in the direction of Koenigsberg and Danzig. Hundreds of thousands of Germans, fearing retribution for the atrocities of the Nazis, became refugees and moved to the port city of Gdynia - the Germans called him Gotenhafen. On January 21, grand-admiral Karl Doenitz issued an order: "All German ships that are available must save all that can be saved from the Soviets." The officers received an order to redeploy submariner cadets and their military property, and in any free box of their ships to accommodate refugees, and especially women and children. Operation Hannibal was the largest evacuation of the population in the history of navigation: over two million people were sent to the west.

Gotenhafen was the last hope for many refugees - there were not only large warships, but also large liners, each of which could take on board thousands of refugees. One of them was the "Wilhelm Gustlof", which seemed unsinkable to the Germans. Built in 1937 year, a magnificent cruise ship with a cinema and a swimming pool served as the pride of the Third Reich, it was intended to show the world the achievements of Nazi Germany. Hitler himself participated in the descent of the ship, which was his personal cabin. For Hitler’s Cultural Leisure Cultural Organization, the liner delivered holidaymakers to Norway and Sweden for a year and a half, and with the start of World War II, became the naval squadron of the 2 cadet training division and scuba diving.

30 January 1945 of the Year Gustlof went out on its last flight from Gotenhafen. About how many refugees and military were on board, data from German sources differ. As for the refugees, before 1990, the figure was almost constant, since many of the survivors of that tragedy lived in the GDR - and there this topic was not subject to discussion. Now they began to give testimony, and the number of refugees has grown to ten thousand people. In relation to the military, the figure almost did not change - it is within a thousand and a half people. Counting was done by “passenger assistants”, one of which was Heinz Schön, who became the chronicler of the death of Gustloff after the war and authored several documentary books on this subject, including The Catastrophe of Gustloff and SOS - Wilhelm Gustlof.

The submarine "C-13" under the command of Alexander Marinesko hit the liner with three torpedoes. The surviving passengers left terrible memories of the last minutes of the "Gustlofa". People tried to escape on rescue rafts, but most kept only a few minutes in icy water. Nine ships participated in the rescue of its passengers. The horrific paintings bump into the memory forever: children's heads are heavier than the legs, and therefore only the legs are visible on the surface. A lot of children's feet ...

So, how many managed to survive in this disaster? According to Shen, 1239 people survived, half of them, 528 people - personnel of German submariners, 123 man of auxiliary female navy, 86 injured, 83 crew member and only 419 refugees. These figures are well known in Germany and today it makes no sense to hide them here. Thus, 50% of submariners survived and only 5% of refugees survived. We have to admit that, basically, women and children died - they were completely unarmed before the war. Such was the price of the “attack of the century,” and this is why in Germany today many Germans consider Marinesko’s actions a war crime.

Refugees become hostages of a ruthless military machine

However, we will not rush to conclusions. The question here is much deeper - about the tragedy of war. Even the fairest war is inhuman, because civilians are the first to suffer from it. According to the inexorable laws of war, Marinesko sank a warship, and it is not his fault that he sank the ship with refugees. A huge fault in the tragedy lies with the German command, which was guided by military interests and did not think about civilians.

The fact is that "Gustlof" left Gotenhafen without proper escort and earlier than planned, without waiting for escort ships, since it was necessary to urgently transfer German submariners from the already surrounded East Prussia. The Germans knew that this area was especially dangerous for ships. The fateful lights included on the Gustlof after the message was received about the movement of a team of German minesweepers towards it played a fatal role - it was along these lights that Marinesko discovered the liner. And finally, on his last voyage, the ship did not leave as a hospital ship, but as a military vehicle, painted gray and equipped with anti-aircraft guns.

Until now, Schen’s figures are practically unknown to us, and data continues to be used that the Gustlof lost the color of the German submarine fleet - the 3700 sailors, which could be completed from 70 to 80 submarines. This figure, taken from the message of the Swedish newspaper "Aftonbladet" from February 2 1945, was considered indisputable in our country and was not questioned. Until now, unusually tenacious legends, created back in 1960-s from the light hand of the writer Sergey Sergeyevich Smirnov, who then raised the unknown pages of the war - Marinesko's feat and the defense of the Brest Fortress. But no, Marinesko was never "Hitler's personal enemy", and three-day mourning in Germany over the death of "Gustloff" was not declared. This was not done for the simple reason that thousands of people were waiting for the evacuation by sea, and the news of the disaster would have caused panic. Mourning was declared by Wilhelm Gustloff himself, the leader of the National Socialist Party in Switzerland, who was killed in 1936, and his murderer, student David Frankfurter, was named Hitler's personal enemy.

Why do we still do not dare to name the true scale of the tragedy? It is sad to admit it, but we are afraid that the Marinesko feat will fade. However, today even many Germans understand: the German side provoked Marinesco. “It was a brilliant military operation, thanks to which the initiative of domination in the naval war in the Baltic was firmly intercepted by the Soviet sailors,” said Yury Lebedev, deputy director of the A. Marinesko Museum of Submarine Forces of Russia. “With its actions, the C-13 submarine approached The end of the war. It was a strategic success of the Soviet navy, and for Germany it was the biggest maritime disaster. Marinesko’s feat is that he destroyed the seemingly unsinkable symbol of Nazism, a dream ship that propagates " The Third Reich ". And the civilians who were on the ship became hostages of the German military machine. Therefore, the tragedy of the death of" Gustloff "is not an accusation of Marinesko, but of Nazi Germany."

Recognizing that the sunk "Gustlof" were not only German submariners, but also refugees, we will take another step towards the recognition of the historical, though unfavorable fact for us. But it is necessary to get out of this situation, because in Germany "Gustlof" is a symbol of misfortune, and in Russia it is a symbol of our military victories. The issue of Gustlof and Marinesko is very complex and delicate, affecting the present and future of relations between Russia and Germany. It was not for nothing that the Consul General of Germany Ulrich Schening who recently visited the Museum of the Underwater Forces of Russia named after A.I. Marinesko left such an entry in the book of honorable guests: “In 60 years after the tragic events of World War II, the time finally arrived when Russians and Germans were building the future together. this calls for the death of the German airliner "Wilhelm Gustlof" in January 1945. "

Today we have the opportunity, even in such a difficult matter, to go to reconciliation - through historical authenticity. Indeed, in the history there is no black and white colors. And the uniqueness of Marinesko is that his personality does not leave anyone indifferent. His legendary personality may have been prepared for immortality. He became a human legend and will remain it ...
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  1. Dimani
    Dimani 11 January 2013 08: 21 New
    54
    Gustlof was armed and was without the identification marks of a hospital ship ... so the attack was justified .. And it would be naive to believe that if instead of Marinesco there was British aviation, they would not attack ... even as if they began ...
    1. Cynic
      Cynic 11 January 2013 13: 35 New
      12
      Quote: Dimani
      Gustlof was armed

      Exactly !
      The only thing that is significant in the article
      the ship left on its last voyage not as a hospital ship, but as a military vehicle, painted gray and equipped with anti-aircraft guns.

      In conclusion, I can only repeat
      Their feat is not forgotten, their glory is eternal!
    2. Sakhalininsk
      Sakhalininsk 11 January 2013 14: 24 New
      18
      Quote: Dimani
      Gustlof was armed and was without the identification marks of a hospital ship ... so the attack was justified .. And it would be naive to believe that if instead of Marinesco there was British aviation, they would not attack ... even as if they began ...


      Colleague all these Western attacks on ruthlessness, this is a typical double standard. If the little shaves drowned this galosh, then they would scream to the whole world about the heroic deed of their warriors, and since he was drowned from a Russian torpedo, this is not valor but the barbarism of wild Asians. Those who dare to scream about ruthlessness, let them first read how many ships with refugees the Nazis drowned during the Tallinn crossing. Let them read about the same Dresden 1945.
      1. revnagan
        revnagan 11 January 2013 19: 59 New
        +7
        Quote: Sakhalininets
        Colleague all these Western attacks on ruthlessness, this is a typical double standard.

        That's right, but look what I still found.
        "In Yalta on November 7, a memorial service and a mourning ceremony will be held in memory of the motor ship" Armenia ", which died off the coast of Crimea on November 7, 1941. At 11.00, a civil meeting, a memorial service and descent from a boat into the water area of ​​the seaport of wreaths will take place near the chapel on the embankment. A memorial plaque was solemnly unveiled at the chapel on the Yalta embankment in memory of the sinking of the motor ship “Armenia.” The passenger-cargo ship “Armenia” left the port of Sevastopol on November 2009, 6, evacuating the military hospital and residents of the city. 1941 to 4,5 thousand people. On the night of November 7, the ship arrived in Yalta, where it took on board several hundred more. On the morning of November 7, "Armenia" left the Yalta port, and, having covered several tens of kilometers, It was attacked by the German Heinkel He-111 torpedo bomber, although the transport had the distinguishing marks of a medical vessel. As a result of a torpedo hit, the ship sank. Of all those on board, only eight were saved. The “Armenia” catastrophe in terms of the number of victims is one of the largest in world history
        1. mnn_12
          mnn_12 13 January 2013 17: 53 New
          +3
          People should know these facts. Other countries publicize their tragedies widely, but not so with Russia. For example, for the first time I read about this. How many people outside of Russia know about this tragedy and what are the Russians doing to make them public? It is also important that the Germans started with "Armenia" and "Gustlof" is a consequence. It is not necessary to supply at the same level the aggressor-invader and the defenders.
          1. Cynic
            Cynic 13 January 2013 18: 29 New
            +3
            Quote: mnn_12
            People need to know these facts. Other countries widely publicize their tragedies, but not so with Russia. For example, for the first time I read about it.

            He who hears, let him hear, ”the sufferer, may he be satisfied, and the advanced may be saved.

            This is to
            other countries announce
            .
            All summer 1941 is a continuous tragedy. Not one post-war has grown with knowledge of this tragedy. Then later / now it has become fashionable to write / film on the theme of the Second World Type of Comedy, in fact, libel!
            Nobody kept this information secret, it’s just easier to treat someone else’s tragedy as a lie, propaganda they say! Why disturb peace!
            By the way, more about an event closer to you
            June 25, 1941 the commander of the Black Sea Fleet, Vice Admiral F.S. Oktyabrsky received permission from Moscow to carry out a raid operation on shelling Constanta, Romania’s main naval base and large oil storage facilities located there. The shelling was to be carried out by 2 leaders: Kharkov and Moscow. For cover from the sea, a detachment of ships was created consisting of: 2 EM Smyshlenny, Soobrazitelny and LKR Voroshilov. Rear Admiral T.A., commander of the light forces detachment, held his flag on Voroshilov Novikov.

            The leader "Moscow" in this campaign was killed.
            Didn’t know either?
            Their feat is not forgotten, their glory is eternal!
            1. mnn_12
              mnn_12 13 January 2013 22: 17 New
              0
              Comparison of "Armenia" and "Moscow" is inappropriate, these are incomparable situations. A civil ship with civilians and a military ship on a military raid ...
              And when people die, it is always a tragedy ...
              1. Garrin
                Garrin 13 January 2013 22: 23 New
                +4
                I recommend "Ordinary Fascism." M. Romm should be reviewed more often. This film puts everything in its place. And in schools, I would have introduced mandatory viewing.
              2. Cynic
                Cynic 14 January 2013 18: 21 New
                +1
                Quote: mnn_12
                Comparison of "Armenia" and "Moscow" is wrong

                And who compares?
                The conversation that, in fact, for Europe, as it is not strange, the Second War is the Unknown War!
      2. Denzel13
        Denzel13 12 January 2013 12: 07 New
        +7
        Drowned, so they need it. In the concentration camps, they did not particularly stand on ceremony against our women and children.

        The author is specifically wrong in trying to denigrate the actions of the Marinesco crew. What nafig "... an impartial fact for us"?

        This is a fact of heroism and professionalism.
        1. Misantrop
          Misantrop 27 February 2013 22: 08 New
          +2
          Quote: Denzel13
          The author is specifically wrong in trying to denigrate the actions of the Marinesco crew. What nafig "... an impartial fact for us"?

          And the most unpleasant (not for us, for them) fact is not in quantity and lists the dead, but ... in the list survivors with this torpedo strike. What the hell German citizens should have regretted at war with this country Marinesco, if they openly didn't give a damn their militarythrowing them away from the means of salvation? If these citizens were not needed by those who vowed to defend them by taking the oath, then what should the submariners of the other side require?
      3. Corsair
        Corsair 10 February 2013 03: 49 New
        +2
        The West is silent about the tragedy of Armenia!
    3. Kortik
      Kortik 11 January 2013 17: 54 New
      16
      This article is what? An attempt to revise the history of the Second World War? The author th brain fucked? Who protects Such shit and rewrite history. After 10 years, this bastard will write that Marinesco was a villain and a war criminal. Yes, there can be no double interpretation. Marinesco is a hero, the fascists an anathema, and the author is a nerd!
      1. SASCHAmIXEEW
        SASCHAmIXEEW 12 January 2013 11: 02 New
        +2
        He not only made him a fool, but also a traitor to his Fatherland!
      2. bistrov.
        bistrov. 12 January 2013 23: 56 New
        +3
        Quote: Kortik
        Marinesco is a hero, the fascists an anathema, and the author is a nerd!

        That's right!
    4. SASCHAmIXEEW
      SASCHAmIXEEW 12 January 2013 10: 58 New
      +2
      In war as in war, but did the Germans spare our people? There they cherished, for which they fought, they got it! Do not spare those who started all this! Zig heil they screamed!
      1. zh1
        zh1 12 January 2013 23: 52 New
        +2
        Denzel, Dirk and Sasha - Have you read the article at all? It says that Marinesco is a hero !!! And the fact that women and children died - he couldn’t find them in any way ... Which means that is not his fault.
        1. mnn_12
          mnn_12 13 January 2013 05: 01 New
          +1
          Indeed, this is not an ego of guilt. But all the same, it’s humanly good that the hero wasn’t made. You could have been a wonderful person, you couldn’t have been, the important thing here is that you don’t need to do a hero for such a thing. It’s impossible to blame but it’s also not necessary to reward.
          1. Alex
            Alex 28 October 2013 19: 20 New
            +3
            Quote: mnn_12
            But all the same, it’s humanly good that the hero wasn’t made. You could have been a wonderful person, you couldn’t have been, the important thing here is that you don’t need to do a hero for such a thing. It’s impossible to blame but it’s not necessary to award.

            Then so.
            Otto Kretschmer, sunk of 40 merchant ships, 1 warship and 3 auxiliary warships - Cavalier of the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with oak leaves, swords and diamonds (equivalent to GSS).

            Reinhard Zuren, sunk by 18 merchant ships and 1 warship - Knight of the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with oak leaves, swords and diamonds (equivalent to GSS).

            Wolfgang Lute, sunk by 43 merchant ship and 1 submarine - Cavalier of the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with oak leaves, swords and diamonds (equivalent to GSS).

            Joachim Schepke, sunk of 36 merchant ships and NOT ONE warship - Cavalier of the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with oak leaves.

            This list can be continued for a long time, out of all this camarilla only Gunther Prin looks more dashing - on account of his battleship Royal Oak and the aircraft carrier Pegasus. And they ALL are heroes to the West, although they drowned practically defenseless "merchants". So, if they are heroes, then personally for me Marinesco is an idol!

            Glory to the heroes of that war !!!
        2. Denzel13
          Denzel13 14 January 2013 12: 03 New
          +2
          We just read that. The author's words "... an unpleasant fact for us" concerning the destruction of this vessel - this is the author's true attitude to this topic.
        3. Misantrop
          Misantrop 27 February 2013 22: 11 New
          +1
          Quote: zh1
          And the fact that women and children died - he couldn’t find them in any way ... Which means that is not his fault.
          And why the heck in general SO raise the question? A ship in war paint and with a weapon is by definition an enemy. Who is on board is not the attacker's concern
    5. Andrey77
      Andrey77 18 January 2013 15: 54 New
      +2
      I agree completely. The ship was sailing without the identification marks of a hospital ship, moreover, most likely under the flag of the German Navy! Now, put yourself in the position of submarine commander. The commander of the boat correctly classified the target - Wilhelm Gustav, the crew ship of the Kriegsmarine submariners. This is the enemy. So to drown.
  2. itr
    itr 11 January 2013 08: 26 New
    24
    Marinesco is a great man!
    1. Ghenxnumx
      Ghenxnumx 11 January 2013 16: 08 New
      10
      itr"Marinesco is a great guy!"
      Plus, and it’s enough to justify ourselves to the liberals - submariners or refugees, what the hell ... p difference - people who have nothing to fear were not fleeing to the west, got on a military side - be prepared for everything, probably also in b / reflection calculations attacks and fire consisted.
  3. omsbon
    omsbon 11 January 2013 08: 30 New
    38
    Should we make excuses to the Germans? Yes, to hell with both hands!
    because in Germany "Gustlof" is a symbol of trouble,

    And for my homeland, a symbol of trouble June 22, 1941.
    Millions of our civilians died at the hands of the German invaders.
    1. Ascetic
      Ascetic 11 January 2013 10: 32 New
      34
      Quote: omsbon
      And for my homeland, a symbol of trouble June 22, 1941.
      Millions of our civilians died at the hands of German invaders


      Marinesko-war criminal, he sank a ship with refugees. This is a purely "de-schizoid" version, which simply does not stand up to criticism. The same that bloody Stalin was to blame for the death of thousands of people in besieged Leningrad, who did not want to surrender the city to "syphilized" fascists.

      But the tragedy for the Germans is that they first democratically elected Hitler, and secondly attacked the USSR. There is such a bike. Russian tourists with their children settled in a hotel room in Turkey, the next day at 6 am a cry was made, the children yelled and jumped joyfully, their parents tried to calm them down.
      As a result, an elderly German couple behind the wall was awakened. They make the remark, "Mine Goth! How can you make noise at 6 in the morning. To which ours answer them .. And you generally shut up, you attacked us at four in the morning .. smile

      "Eh, Captain Marinesco died, he would have had fun." (a photo)
      1. Beck
        Beck 11 January 2013 11: 44 New
        +5
        The author of the article is objective. Did not go about the pseudo-praise.

        "Gustlof" transported, in the absolute majority, refugees. It is a fact... And there were no 3000 submariners on board the Gustlof. (This is a communist excuse). Since in January 45 Germany did not have 30 new submarines to equip them with crews. And it is a fact.

        Marinesco sank the Gustloff. This is also a fact.

        Like the immutable FACTthat Marinesco, before launching the torpedoes, should not and was not obliged to board the Gustloff to make sure of the ship's passenger contingent.

        He saw Marinesco, in the periscope, the enemy transport - destroyed. The law of war. Tragedy - Yes. But the war itself is an incomparable tragedy.
        1. knn54
          knn54 11 January 2013 13: 11 New
          +4
          Baltic Fleet in 1941 - 1942 lost more than 30 submarines, which amounted to about 50% of the combat strength of ships of this class in the Baltic. By the beginning of 1943, the underwater forces of the Baltic Fleet were reduced to 21 submarines. Marinesko was the commander of the ONLY submarine of the "Baby" class, who survived from the beginning of the war.
          Since 1939, he served as the commander of the M-96. In the 40th submarine crew took first place according to the results of combat training: the diving standard of 35 seconds was almost doubled - 19,5 seconds. The commander was awarded a nominal gold watch and awarded the rank of captain-lieutenant. In November, the 42nd M-96 went to Narva Bay to land a reconnaissance group in an operation to seize the Enigma cryptographic machine. There was no encryption machine at the German headquarters, the landing party returned with nothing. Marinesco managed to secretly approach the shore and without loss returned the landing to the base. A. I. Marinesko was awarded the Order of Lenin. Marinesco became the commander of the submarine S-13 in April 43
          According to modern data, 406 sailors and officers of the 2nd training division of the submarine forces, 90 members of their own crew, 250 female soldiers of the German fleet and 4600 refugees and wounded, including almost 3 thousand children, died with Gustloff. The liner was flying the Kriegsmarin flag and did not carry the Red Cross identification marks.
          Of the number of submariners, 16 officers died (including 8 medical services), the rest were cadets, i.e. the dead submariners could form only 7-8 submarine crews (the crew of the most common German type VII submarine was 44-56 people) .
          1. The comment was deleted.
        2. Cynic
          Cynic 11 January 2013 13: 39 New
          -1
          Quote: Beck
          He saw Marinesco, in the periscope, the enemy transport - destroyed.

          It’s just interesting, but if the transport were painted white and had red crosses on board?
          Your honest reaction
          About the fact that at night all cats of sulfur will not be mentioned!
          1. Beck
            Beck 11 January 2013 15: 16 New
            +1
            ZINNIK - It’s just interesting, but what if the transport were painted white and had red crosses on board?
            Your honest reaction

            If the transport had the emblem of the red cross, then personally I would not attack.
            1. Sakhalininsk
              Sakhalininsk 11 January 2013 16: 56 New
              +7
              Quote: Beck
              ZINNIK - It’s just interesting, but what if the transport were painted white and had red crosses on board? Your honest reaction? If the transport had the emblem of the red cross, then personally I would not attack.


              Well so you zhezh real zhintylmen ... all with a sword, hat and cloak ..
              And I would have planted torpedoes even in a white Nazi parachute, and I would have helped him dive from a cannon if the latter had been without a convoy. Ask why? Yes, because the Germans started the naval war on the principle of the swamp of all. The Germans without special ceremonies drowned hospital ships without regret, and there are more than enough examples of this. So what is pop such is the coming.
              1. Beck
                Beck 11 January 2013 20: 29 New
                +3
                Quote: Sakhalininets
                And I would have planted torpedoes even in a white Nazi parachute, and even from a cannon


                Quote: Uncle
                And I would attack.


                Quote: Garrin
                Did they look at our "red crosses" a lot? And the villages and residents were burned alive?


                Guys. It was not these refugees from the "Gustlof" who started the war. These women were not bombing our cities. It was not these children who burned villages. And it is not proper for a man to purposefully kill civilians. We must kill soldiers, punishers, Gestapo men. If they are animals, then all the more you should not be like beasts.

                And I repeat. Marinesco saw the transport passport, without identification marks and destroyed. That's the way it should be. And the fact that there were refugees is a tragedy of war.
                1. SASCHAmIXEEW
                  SASCHAmIXEEW 12 January 2013 11: 24 New
                  +4
                  And not Marinescu! He performed his duty to destroy the enemy and did an excellent job, and who was on the ship with a military flag is the second question!
                2. Pushkar
                  Pushkar 12 January 2013 13: 41 New
                  +7
                  Not women, not children, but their husbands and fathers. Above there is a post about the sinking of the hospital steamer "Armenia" by the Germans on November 7.11.1941, 7000 - 8 people. XNUMX people survived. The steamer was sailing under the red cross. Glory to the Hero of Marinesco, who took revenge on the aggressors.
                3. alexdol
                  alexdol 12 January 2013 15: 03 New
                  +3
                  Beck (1) "And I repeat. Marinesco saw the transport without identification marks and destroyed it. So it should be. And the fact that there were refugees there is a tragedy of war."
                  -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------
                  --
                  Here I completely agree with you too! Then all the more it is not clear what this article is about and why ?! What, Marinesco was supposed to first "inspect" the transport, and only after that decide what to do with it ?! I will repeat once again - the article is PROVOCATIVE! The goal is to slander our next HERO!
                4. Misantrop
                  Misantrop 27 February 2013 22: 24 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Beck
                  It was not these refugees from "Gustlof" who started the war. These women were not bombing our cities. It was not these children who burned villages. And it is not proper for a man to purposefully kill civilians.
                  Yes, they didn’t bomb or shoot. They are only they forced to work with kicks the hungry and poorly fed SLAVES, brought and sent by their husbands from the vastness of "wild Russia". And they handed over to concentration camps those who could not work more. And they are not guilty of anything else ... request wink
              2. SASCHAmIXEEW
                SASCHAmIXEEW 12 January 2013 11: 14 New
                +3
                The first are not the first, fascists are at the bottom! What did they do with us? And after all, feel sorry for them. Why are you guys bleached overeat.! An eye for an eye! The only way and ALWAYS !!!! Otherwise, they will always creep on us, and without looking back and beat to the blood !!!!
                1. lechatormosis
                  lechatormosis 12 January 2013 11: 19 New
                  +5
                  I agree, FASCISTS CAN NOT BE GOOD BY DEFINITION
                  After themselves they leave mountains of corpses.
              3. alexdol
                alexdol 12 January 2013 14: 54 New
                +4
                Sakhalinets RU "And I would have planted torpedoes even in a white fascist ship .."
                -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------

                --------------------
                I would do the same, here I fully agree with you! But back to the article itself. What is it about? Here the author writes: "Whether we like it or not, we still cannot get around the question: what did Marinesco drown" ... Maybe this question does not allow the author to sleep, but personally he does not interest me at all! Marinesco did everything RIGHT and therefore he is a HERO! Moreover, in one military campaign he managed to sink TWO enemy vehicles at once! Why is this article? Apparently again, one goal is "discrediting" our next HERO, built on sentimentality and the desire to squeeze out a tear when describing the terrible scenes of drowning!
                Another quote from the article: "The fact is that the" Gustlof "left Gotenhafen without proper escort and ahead of schedule, without waiting for the escort ships,"
                But for me personally, this phrase raises the following question: where did they come from again from the article: "Nine ships participated in the rescue of its passengers."?
                In a word - complete nonsense! I see no reason to believe what is written here and not to believe that I had to read about it in other sources! And Marinesco is a HERO without any talk, especially since indeed of all the boats of this type that were available on the BF only he survived!
                In conclusion, I will give a link to my poem dedicated to Marinesco:
                http://stihi.ru/2009/06/26/3796
            2. Uncle
              Uncle 11 January 2013 18: 42 New
              +5
              Quote: Beck
              If the transport had the emblem of the red cross, then personally I would not attack.

              And I would attack. It was 45 years old, everyone already knew about the atrocities of the Nazis, I would not care, even refugees, even women, even children. War is war.
            3. Garrin
              Garrin 11 January 2013 19: 22 New
              +6
              Quote: Beck

              If the transport had the emblem of the red cross, then personally I would not attack.

              Did they look at our "red crosses" a lot? And the villages and residents were burned alive? Remember the movie "Torpedo bombers". "PUNISH!!!" I completely agree with the hero. And Marinesco, in general, is beyond praise.
          2. Alex
            Alex 28 October 2013 20: 52 New
            +2
            Quote: Cynic
            It’s just interesting, but if the transport were painted white and had red crosses on board?
            Your honest reaction

            Do not quite understand. If everything was so and Marinesko drowned? Then.
            If you didn’t drown, then three times a hero. This is MY honest talk on your gmpotetic situation.
          3. svp67
            svp67 28 October 2013 20: 56 New
            +1
            Quote: Cynic
            About the fact that at night all cats of sulfur will not be mentioned!

            And about the fact that the "cross" and "flag" should be highlighted at night, we will mention ...
            "The specified objects must have distinctive signs and special flags;"
            1. Cynic
              Cynic 29 October 2013 11: 22 New
              +1
              Quote: svp67
              about the fact that the "cross" and "flag" should be highlighted at night, we will mention ...

              Recently, one topic from the past will pop up, then another.
              Over time, this article seems to me more voluminous, although naturally you are absolutely right in your statement.
              Increasingly, based on
              History winners write

              embraces the feeling _ And who actually won? The vanquished behave with such spontaneity that, at best, we should be embraced by a sense of inferiority for the Victory, or even a sense of shame!
              If the Soviet people were to be a full-fledged cultural one, then a more highly developed state would never have won!
              Our Victory is used as evidence of the inferiority of our people!
              And the main trouble is not even this, but that among us there are those who share these views!
        3. SASCHAmIXEEW
          SASCHAmIXEEW 12 January 2013 11: 08 New
          +1
          You are right in my opinion, only in the last sentence! Marinescu is a hero!
      2. does it
        does it 11 January 2013 20: 05 New
        +5
        As a result, an elderly German couple behind the wall was awakened. They make a remark to them, "Mine Goth! How can you make noise at 6 in the morning. To which our answer them .. And you generally shut up, you attacked us at four in the morning ...; IRON ARGUMENT!
        1. SASCHAmIXEEW
          SASCHAmIXEEW 12 January 2013 11: 26 New
          +3
          If not a joke, then 10000000000000000 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++
  4. max73
    max73 11 January 2013 08: 34 New
    27
    The author of the article writes: “It was not without reason that the Consul General of Germany Ulrich Schoening, who recently visited the Museum of the Submarine Forces of Russia named after A.I. Marinesco, left the following entry in the book of honorary visitors:“ 60 years after the tragic events of World War II, the time has finally come when the Russians and the Germans building the future together. The death of the German liner "Wilhelm Gustloff" in January 1945 calls for this "....... In this regard, the question arises: what does the death of thousands of wounded soldiers and refugees on unarmed transports in 41, during the Tallinn passage call for? when did Luftwaffe cadets practice bombing skills?
    1. PSih2097
      PSih2097 11 January 2013 09: 58 New
      16
      But what is the cause of the death of thousands of wounded soldiers and refugees in unarmed vehicles in the 41st during the Tallinn crossing, when Luftwaffe cadets practiced bombing skills?

      dozens of hospital trains shot by German under the red cross, tens of thousands of refugees shot from the air on the roads, etc. the list goes on and on.
      1. Uncle
        Uncle 11 January 2013 18: 49 New
        +3
        Quote: PSih2097
        dozens of hospital trains shot by German under the red cross,

        We answered them in the same way, crushed sanitary carts with tanks, and direct fire at the hospital. And few reptiles crushed, in general, fighting with Russians is more expensive. At the beginning of the war, Manstein complained about the treachery of the Russians, like pretending to be dead, and then shoots in the back. The Russians did not commit atrocities with the civilian population, did not hang out exponentially, and did not burn whole villages in sheds. And whoever fell under the hot hand, do not be offended, you are citizens of a hostile state.
    2. vyatom
      vyatom 11 January 2013 12: 02 New
      17
      We did not start this war. How can you spare the chances when they destroyed our vehicles with civilians in the 41st? When German submariners fired torpedoes at our women and children who boarded boats in the Barents Sea. When they tested the gas chambers on our prisoners of war. Laughing and laughing, they bombed our peaceful cities.
      They must remember the attack of Marinesco for centuries, so that even their thoughts would not arise to begin a treacherous war with us.
      1. SASCHAmIXEEW
        SASCHAmIXEEW 12 January 2013 11: 35 New
        +2
        and not treacherous! in general about the war with RUSSIA, let them remember only 45 years and that's it !!!
  5. Narkom
    Narkom 11 January 2013 08: 34 New
    26
    The hero, to carry out such an attack, attacked from the side of the coast where the depths are minimal, a vessel going as part of a military convoy. And then, as far as memory does not change there, Gustlov had the highest ranks of the SS, the managers of the "eastern territories" and the teams of XXII series submarines ...
    When German pilots bombed trains carrying red crosses on the roofs, or the hospital, they did it right, from the point of view of the West.
    There was a war and we did not start it. but in war as in war.
  6. Prometey
    Prometey 11 January 2013 08: 36 New
    21
    Does it make sense now to go into the moral value of the issue? The war was going on and the Soviet submarine attacked the enemy object, just as German submarines had mercilessly sunk the ships of their opponents (and not only the military) before. And there will probably be more victims on their part than on "Gustlava".
  7. Pinochet000
    Pinochet000 11 January 2013 08: 56 New
    11
    Why is such a question asked? Some kind of nonsense .... IMHO For what they fought for it and ran into fish food. The title of the article is annoying .... very much.
  8. Vasily79
    Vasily79 11 January 2013 08: 58 New
    33
    I am amazed at the Russian soul when our children were raped by girls, mothers, they were alive, they burned this is the norm of war, and we are still silent and hiding under the guise of reconciliation yap at us and we are too lazy with a fucking boot ........ in the face. For Marinesco you need a muzzle on the asphalt. Tomorrow I was going to church; I would definitely order a prayer for the repose of the hero’s soul (this is not pathos, not rude)
    1. Uncle
      Uncle 11 January 2013 18: 50 New
      +1
      Quote: Vasily79
      Tomorrow I was going to church; I would definitely order a prayer for the repose of the hero’s soul (this is not pathos, not rude)

      Pay attention - no one is rude, not everything is lost !!!
  9. Prorox
    Prorox 11 January 2013 09: 17 New
    11
    Another opus on the topic "was there a feat", got it already. The headline of the article is what a catchy and a hint of the main thing is immediately visible to the criminals, the main thing is to adjust the numbers of proportions and it is ready, the Soviet "super cruel perfidy" over the defeated fascists. The ending is also good - "He became a man-legend and will remain one ..." a pretentious ellipsis, another hint at the revision of not only the feat of Marinesco, but also the results of the Second World War.
  10. Nagaibak
    Nagaibak 11 January 2013 09: 33 New
    10
    Or maybe stop trying to find shit in the actions of our ancestors. Sprinkle his head with ashes. I doubt that in the West they are just as conscientiously tormented, regarding their own. My opinion is Marinesco-hero and period. And at least do not dawn there.
  11. demon ada
    demon ada 11 January 2013 09: 43 New
    +6
    definitely a hero.
    who is against that enemy.
    Well, something like this.
    1. SASCHAmIXEEW
      SASCHAmIXEEW 12 January 2013 11: 42 New
      +1
      not something like that, but unequivocally all sorts of equivocations will suffice, who is not against us! And don't bother with us with your charter!
  12. oper66
    oper66 11 January 2013 09: 50 New
    17
    Yes, everything in this world is understood, you can cheat, a pigeon like a bird of the world nevermind who or what to shit !!!! Much has already been taken up by the wave of revisionists of history and A. Matrosov and the Young Guards from Kosmodemyanskaya. Films are shot about the good fascists and the disgusting Russian rapists and executioners of the good peaceful burgher and other fascist who killed our grandfathers and grandmothers who sought to destroy our entire people by making them a wordless slave below the level of cattle. Come on now and go around the DOVES OF THE WORLD and also Marinescu. I am annoyed by the phrase PEACEFUL RESIDENT - what kind of concept is this or are they not citizens of the country of the aggressor receiving benefits from the war or not their relatives and family members who killed our people or these civilians of Germany were embarrassed to scoff at women and children hijacked to work in Germany ???? ?? So whom do we regret and whom they want to nail to the pillory. The phrase civilians reminds me of Chechnya where there were peaceful people who shot at us and the fire was forbidden to open towards the village or not, the sons of these peaceful brothers raped and took away property from the Russian-speaking population of ACHISSR or didn’t they put landmines on the roads ????? Or how did people not take part in the war in Georgia ????? NO CAN NOT BE PEACEFUL CITIZENS CAN NOT BECAUSE these peaceful while the time is sent to the murder of their citizens support them and the moral and material tends to get GOOD DUE defeated and is a party to WAR TO THE FULLEST EXTENT AND MUST ALSO BE LIABLE par with his army, OR THE GANG IS SO AS THEY ARE THEIR PART AND THEREFORE I SPEAK OFF YOUR HANDS FROM THE MARINESC BAGS AND AWAY FROM YOUR DIRTY FEEDS OF INTELLIGENCE AND INTENTION FROM HEROES-PROTECTORS OF OUR FAMILY AND PEOPLE. and IF YOU DO NOT LIKE OUR COUNTRY AND PEOPLE - RIDE ON ALL THE FOUR PARTIES OF PEOPLE OF THE WORLD AND THE DOVE !!!!!
    1. SASCHAmIXEEW
      SASCHAmIXEEW 12 January 2013 11: 44 New
      0
      ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
      ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
      !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
      !!!!!!!!!!
  13. Beltar
    Beltar 11 January 2013 09: 51 New
    16
    Enough to write crap already, the debriefing has long been made in court, the vessel went without any sign that it was not comme il faut to drown it. Therefore, the fra is quite legal. The Germans did not hesitate to sink hospital ships and kill the civilian population, and on May 9 every German should go to the memory of a Soviet soldier and kneel before him because his Germany now exists at all. And what is one liner in front of 50-80% of cities destroyed by allied aviation?

    And the fact that the attack took place in near-polygon conditions, but Marinesco himself did things on the shore, has nothing to do with the matter. The war in general is such a thing that it loves the lucky and often one of many, far from the best fighters, in one single battle manages to take a bunch of frags, or one, but epic.
  14. sso-xnumx
    sso-xnumx 11 January 2013 09: 52 New
    18
    Alexander Ivanovich was a real soldier! He knew how to fight and walk like a real man. He respected subordinates and had the courage to send staff dishwashers, for which he was certainly not represented and dismissed.
    And those "peacekeepers" and "right and left defenders" could be driven into the trenches of the Great Patriotic War under bullets and explosives, or into compartments under depth charges, to show them the atrocities on our territory or in besieged Leningrad, I would see how much "courage" they have accumulated in the pants.
  15. Slevinst
    Slevinst 11 January 2013 10: 08 New
    +6
    War is war, let the Germans do not forget how many civilians have killed us talking about their refugees, anyone on the spot would have done the same thing at that time, all the blame for this should lie only on the Nazis
  16. leon-iv
    leon-iv 11 January 2013 10: 08 New
    0
    By the way, remembering this story there is such a version
    That Stalin was very angry to learn that Marinescu drowned the submariners.
    After all, he understood that after Germany, which was already close to collapse, it would be necessary to fight with a high degree of probability with small-shavens and amerkashki. And the new German submarines XVII XXIII XXII would have drunk a lot of blood for the Omerikanegam and naglosaksam
    1. SASCHAmIXEEW
      SASCHAmIXEEW 12 January 2013 11: 53 New
      +1
      Leon, these submariners would have fought on the side of the Anglo-Saxons, that is, Stalin and us were unlikely to be happy about this!
    2. The comment was deleted.
  17. Fox
    Fox 11 January 2013 10: 11 New
    +4
    you can add about the female battalions of support, that is, prostitutes who worked of their own accord in the army and navy of Germany ... and the article is bold - another liberal lettering, pouring mud on the Hero. complexes, author?
    1. Slevinst
      Slevinst 11 January 2013 10: 38 New
      -11
      Did he water someone with mud, just set out information on this case, without blaming anyone
      1. rapid1934
        rapid1934 11 January 2013 20: 14 New
        +5
        This almost professional article of the provocateur has one goal - to sow doubts in young people about the role of the USSR in this war. "And his feat can be interpreted in different ways ..."
        This is a war, this is an attack by an enemy target.
        ? The next question will be- Maybe the USSR attacked Germany?
        ? Who ordered this article?
      2. Alex
        Alex 29 October 2013 14: 13 New
        +3
        Quote: Slevinst
        Did he water someone with mud, just set out information on this case, without blaming anyone

        This is the most sophisticated way to cheat a person.
        Firstly, you can find the negative side in almost any act.
        Secondly, if these moments are absent, then it is possible to create the appearance of their presence, focusing attention on one and keeping silent about the other.
        Thirdly, the old polemical method: first, there is an unfounded accusation, and then an "objective" analysis of this accusation begins, involving the most varied verbiage.
        And, finally, fourthly, start shouting: in spite of ANYTHING, he is ANYTHING hero (with such accentualization). After that, somewhere in the depths of one’s soul a fetid ball of conviction begins to rise that OUR heroes are invented heroes, not real and to be proud of them is a shameful thing.

        As for the specific sinking of ships in submarine warfare: from the very beginning of the appearance of submarines, the problem of observing the rules of naval warfare has become generally unsolvable (it was already not always solvable before that). And if you add that the same Angles left and right violated all the written and unwritten canons, then there is nothing to talk about at all. Marinesco attacked military transports and the point. Filling these ships is the concern of the port commandant and the convoy commander. The wounded and the children are loaded onto military vehicles — their problem and their responsibility, which set their compatriots up under the torpedoes and bombs of the enemy, they must answer and make excuses for their deaths. In the end, no one is blaming for the encirclement and captivity of our fighters in the boilers of 1941, neither Guderian, nor Leeb, nor Bok, nor Kleist ...
  18. 8 company
    8 company 11 January 2013 10: 52 New
    15
    How much can this garbage be placed? Someone pity the Germans who died from the bombing, then torpedoes. Nonsense.
    1. psdf
      psdf 12 January 2013 22: 48 New
      +2
      By the way, but shouldn't the moderators take this position into account?
      It seems to me that rarely what source in the West allows so openly pouring mud on their Heroes. The author in 99% of cases simply will not be published.
      Let's not let mud in our country of Heroes, even if we stop publishing these shameful, provocative articles.
  19. Bruevich
    Bruevich 11 January 2013 11: 05 New
    0
    And at school they said that the name Marinescu because father was Moldovan and not Ukrainian
    1. Alex
      Alex 29 October 2013 14: 17 New
      +2
      Quote: Bruevich
      And at school they said that the name Marinescu because father was Moldovan and not Ukrainian

      Absolutely correct, but after he settled in Odessa, he wrote down the name of his son in Ukrainian.
  20. Stiletto
    Stiletto 11 January 2013 11: 11 New
    10
    Here stopudovo agree with Basil. This is war. The Nazis themselves did not really understand whom they drowned. And there was no time and opportunity to separate flies from cutlets. Enemy vehicles are sunk - the road is there. An article is a fat minus. Write better about the hundreds of our burned villages, raped women, murdered children and the elderly tortured in concentration camps, burned in furnace furnaces, human skin lampshades, millions of war-disfigured lives.
    Or did we attack fascist Germany?
    Do not put the above case on a par with the bombing of Cologne, Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
    Marinesco is definitely a Hero in that situation.
  21. The comment was deleted.
    1. Asgard
      Asgard 11 January 2013 11: 50 New
      0
      [media=<iframe%20width="960"%20height="720"%20src="h
      ttp://www.youtube.com/embed/QlAHU0Kk0vw"%20frameborder="0"%20allo
      wfullscreen> ]
    2. Asgard
      Asgard 11 January 2013 11: 52 New
      0
      [media = http: //youtu.be/QlAHU0Kk0vw]
    3. Asgard
      Asgard 11 January 2013 11: 54 New
      0
      [media=http://<iframe%20width="960"%20height="720"%20src=
      "http://www.youtube.com/embed/QlAHU0Kk0vw"%20frameborder="0"
      % 20allowfullscreen> ]
    4. Uncle
      Uncle 11 January 2013 18: 55 New
      +2
      Quote: Asgard
      carved under Young

      Young, not Young. I live there, and by the way, it was there in the Temple that I heard about the Battle of Molody, which is the number of soldiers like Kulikovskaya.
    5. SASCHAmIXEEW
      SASCHAmIXEEW 12 January 2013 11: 57 New
      +2
      Asgard is 100% in agreement with you. I look forward to the distant future! And I think I'm not alone ..
  22. zambo
    zambo 11 January 2013 11: 36 New
    +9
    In war, as in war ... Glory to the heroes of Russia! Death to the enemies of Russia!
  23. patriot2
    patriot2 11 January 2013 11: 44 New
    +8
    You need to talk about heroes like Marinesco in history lessons!
    Eternal memory to the Hero!
  24. AK-47
    AK-47 11 January 2013 11: 47 New
    +8
    His legendary personality is destined for immortality. He became a human legend and will remain her..

    Monologue Marinesco
    I remember the day - I command: “For battle!”
    The crew in the compartments: "Ready!"
    At the periscope - a chain of convoys
    And water flows from the sides.
    Blond, impudent beasts,
    Be affirmed now:
    "God with us!"
    Holy Retribution is done
    A fair summary has been made.
    You don’t trade a second at Eternity -
    This is waiting for every Fuhrer,
    Who transgresses the Law of Man
    Who will encroach on the Russian Honor!
    The commander’s share is not mundane,
    A feat in her and suma, and prison.
    The Spanish coast is not for us,
    We are closer to the Kolyma River.
    There will be a day - I will command: “For battle!”
    Diesel will roar to the limit ...
    You can die us out of history,
    But you can’t quarrel with Russia.

    Monument to Marinesco in Kaliningrad.
  25. Rus_87
    Rus_87 11 January 2013 12: 28 New
    +4
    Climbing upstairs, people were constantly shouting and pushing, those who fell were doomed, they were trampled to death. No one could help the helpless - pregnant women and wounded soldiers. Crowds of people stormed lifeboats, and there was no question of fulfilling the famous commandment “Women and children are the first!”. Nobody obeyed anyone; those who were physically stronger took the upper hand.


    Fascists they are fascists, what principles and commandments are there ...
  26. Misantrop
    Misantrop 11 January 2013 12: 48 New
    16
    Let's look one more time at the numbers saved from Gustlov, by German same data. If the Democrats believe that Marinescu should have felt sorry for the refugees, then why didn’t they spare their own military in a fight for saving means? A combat trip is not a Christmas walk. No one calls (that's strange, why?) To condemn German pilots and sailors who drowned civil ships of the USSR during the evacuation of residents of Sevastopol. But our ready to pour mud for any reason
    1. I think so
      I think so 12 January 2013 20: 01 New
      +5
      the figures of those who survived (according to German data) indicate that mainly those who had weapons with them ... sailors and other military personnel were able to escape ... What does this mean? And this suggests that the military, there on Gustlov killed their civilians and were able to get out of the ship ... Again, not a word about this "humanity" either in the article or in the west, respectively ... I consider the author of the article to be a DIRECT ENEMY of Russia and Russian people. He is even worse than the enemy - it seems that he is not an enemy, but sings songs to the accompaniment of the enemy's direction ... He fulfills the order of the West to destroy their heroes from the memory of Russians. Look over the past decades, which of the Russian defenders of the country at all times remained in Russian propaganda, I apologize not to both ... So I still don’t remember ... Maybe someone will remind you ... And Stalin and Zhukov and Brezhnev and even Matrosov - all are spoiled .... Eh Russian (?) People Well you allow your internal enemies to destroy you morally, but time will come and physically ...
  27. lewerlin53rus
    lewerlin53rus 11 January 2013 13: 01 New
    +7
    This is called PAYMENT
  28. Dawd
    Dawd 11 January 2013 13: 02 New
    +1
    All the same, it’s not our way somehow, only a democratic west can kill, we are in an honest and equal battle!
    1. I think so
      I think so 12 January 2013 20: 11 New
      +5
      Well, it was a fair and equal battle, what's the problem? Nine (!) Military escort ships against one (!) Submarine! Where are the advantages or dishonesty of the battle? Do not weave nonsense to the German tune ... Having fooled another real hero of Russia for the sake of a momentary alleged benefit, you turn into "Ivanov who do not remember" ... and these are the first steps towards the disappearance of the people ...
  29. davoks
    davoks 11 January 2013 13: 20 New
    0
    anyone interested - http://rutracker.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3735989 wink
  30. xoma58
    xoma58 11 January 2013 13: 39 New
    +8
    Something from the title of the article pulls rotten goat. Revision of the outcome of the war is unacceptable. And all who want to do this should be .... condemn. Marinesco is a professional and a hero. At that time, the Germans deserved this fate in full, that's all.
  31. Ascetic
    Ascetic 11 January 2013 14: 09 New
    10
    Currently in Russia there Museum of the Russian submarine forces. A. I. Marinesco(currently the only submarine museum in Russia.) Created in 1997 by order of the governor of St. Petersburg
    Located on the ground floor of a residential building at 83 Kondratyevsky Prospekt. The permanent exhibition is located in two rooms and in an open area near the museum. The museum funds contain about 17000 exhibits.
  32. davoks
    davoks 11 January 2013 14: 38 New
    +2
    The death of Laconia still remember. a similar case is a civilian ship, but with weapons and soldiers on board
  33. vik71
    vik71 11 January 2013 14: 58 New
    11
    A.I. Marinesko was an officer in the Navy of the USSR, and attacked a ship not with a red cross. Well done !!!! Eternal glory and memory to him !!!!!
  34. patrianostra
    patrianostra 11 January 2013 16: 22 New
    +5
    Remember 1942 and the steamer "Lenin", which was also sunk, only 5 or 7 people were saved near the Crimea. The place of his death was found not long ago by diving enthusiasts. It was a violent war where the stake was the existence of slavs on earth soldier and we broke the ridge of these lovers to test us for strength. Now the Germans, like the Swedes, took up peaceful work and did not succeed in this weakly. angry
  35. PistonizaToR
    PistonizaToR 11 January 2013 16: 33 New
    +2
    vyatom,
    There’s nothing to add. Yes, and in general, such articles are enraged. Anyone want to get across. Better than a dozen photos from Auschwitz would have been posted so that they remembered what the brown infection did.


    .
  36. ymNIK1970
    ymNIK1970 11 January 2013 16: 37 New
    -27
    Marinescu asshole semi-Romanian, a drunkard and a thief. Like him, cancer cells destroy a large, living organism. Only thanks to the liberals made an icon out of it. Sorry he did not have time to arrest in Finland. am
    1. SASCHAmIXEEW
      SASCHAmIXEEW 12 January 2013 12: 09 New
      +3
      wise guy 1970 you are the same, wacky as everyone, those who came to us with a sword and ran away with cots in full! You are only here to spray powerless saliva! Take away the ghoul !!
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. Cynic
          Cynic 12 January 2013 16: 50 New
          +1
          Quote: ymNIK1970
          Great reaction!

          The most evil breed of enemies is those who praise. Tacitus.
    2. Cynic
      Cynic 12 January 2013 16: 53 New
      +2
      ymNIK1970Do you dream of turtles on uniform?
      I think at such a pace you will soon be added to epaulettes.
  37. akm8226
    akm8226 11 January 2013 16: 41 New
    +7
    All writers forget one simple thing - had Hitler not attacked the USSR and there would have been no attack of the century. And so get and sign!
    And Marinesco - eternal memory, honor and respect!
    If we all did our duty like him.
  38. George
    George 11 January 2013 17: 14 New
    15
    - When I hear talk about my luck, they don't make me angry, but make me laugh. I am not Suvorov, although I could also answer in Suvorov: if you are lucky, two are lucky, put something on the skill ... But when a whisper comes to me: is it not barbarism to sneak up on defenseless merchant ships and send them to the bottom? - This whisper insults me to the core. And they say this: whether it’s the proud falcons, our pilots, there is an honest duel, the strongest wins ... I respect the pilots, and in one respect I even envy them - they fight in front of the whole nation, any boy understands what air combat is. True, one shouldn't delude oneself about the "fair fight" either: if three of them happen to attack one, they will attack for a sweet soul ... For some reason, it is often forgotten that the main striking force of the air fleet is not fighters, but attack aircraft and bombers, and that, compared to a torpedo, an ordinary air bomb is a weapon much more dangerous for civilians. In wartime, the sea is not a place for walking, but a theater of operations. Every ship that goes to sea performs a military task, even if this ship is not military, but only paramilitary. Every person stepping on the deck of such a ship understands that he can become an object of attack - both from the air and from the depths of the sea. What unarmed adversary can we talk about? Before reaching the enemy, the submarine is hourly exposed to mortal danger from mines, nets, boats - submarine hunters, aircraft, coastal artillery ... Outlining a target for an attack, the commander knows for sure: the larger and larger the target, the stronger it will be protected by a convoy of warships. There is one defense against them - stealth, maneuver. I know what losses our aviation suffered during the war, but the losses of submariners are no less, remember that of all the "escorts" in the Baltic, only one survived to the Victory - our "thirteenth". And about the fact that people who are not involved in the war are killed in vehicles ... much less than when shelling or bombing cities. During the war, ships do not carry passengers, departing from the pier, they solve a specific military-strategic problem - to deliver troops, weapons, ammunition, raw materials for the military industry. Anyone who stepped onto the deck of such a vessel knows what he is going for. A real sailor understands this and will never talk about defenselessness. After the mobilization, in the forty-sixth, I sailed as assistant captain on a dry cargo transport vessel. Monotonous flights: Leningrad - Szczecin and vice versa. The cargoes were different, but coal was always taken by the return flight, captured Germans loaded coal, then there were many of them in Poland. I watched the loading myself. He went in a working tunic, but with the Order of Lenin. Before dinner, the boatswain came up to me and showed me one of the loaders - as if this German knew me and wanted to talk. It seemed strange to me - I know German acquaintances, I never had one. But the boatswain reiterates his point: I met, said, with Marinesco and I want to say two words to him. Okay, I say, invite him to my cabin. A man of medium height, a blond man, came up to me, his face was weathered. He stretched out in a military fashion, snapped his heels. Introduced: Chief Lieutenant such and such. "Is it true that you are Marinesco?" - "Yes," I say, "Marinesco." - "The same" Gustlov "kaput?" - "There was a case" - I say. "May I shake your hand?" We talked. It turned out that this German was a lieutenant, a submariner. He has never been a fascist. He served in a training submarine detachment in Pillau, was supposed to go with his squadron on "Gustlov", but in the last minutes before sailing he was ordered to transfer to the destroyer accompanying "Gustlov": the navigator fell ill there.
    1. SASCHAmIXEEW
      SASCHAmIXEEW 12 January 2013 12: 17 New
      0
      This is a worthy response to the article !! in war there are inhabitants of the warring countries!
    2. Alex
      Alex 29 October 2013 14: 31 New
      +3
      Georges Bravo good ! You can’t say better. And this lieutenant is more honest than all those who try to cover up their own abominations with war and try to pass white over black. He knew perfectly well that in war, enemies confront each other, but after the war two HONEST soldiers can shake hands, even if they used to look at each other through the scope.

      And honesty is defined simply: never do lawlessness and violence, if you yourself know for sure that this is lawlessness and violence.

      Glory to the Soviet sailors!
  39. vadimN
    vadimN 11 January 2013 17: 31 New
    11
    After reading the article somewhere in the depths of consciousness there is a feeling that in us gradually, slowly, for the umpteenth time and for various reasons, they are trying to instill guilt for our victories in the Great Patriotic War!
    ... Ah, what unfortunate Germans suffered from the Russian barbarian Marinesco ...! Have pity on them and repent ...!

    Yes, I personally feel sorry for the civilians, children and women who, by the will of fate, ended up on "Gustlov", but head the ashes let the Germans sprinkle themselveswho started that war or indulged it!
    War is cruel in its essence, and sometimes does not understand where the civilian population is, and where is the military enemy. This is especially felt at sea! "Gustlov" walked with a blackout, without signs of the Red Cross, with weapons on board. Who could, in that situation, determine who and what was on board?
    Marinesco did as the oath demanded, a sense of duty and charters - he attacked the enemy, and did it skillfully! And neither he nor his crew, and even more so, we modern Russian people, should not feel any guilt. Let the Germans repent of their crimes, but Marinesco paid them for these crimes!
    1. Uncle
      Uncle 11 January 2013 19: 06 New
      +2
      Quote: vadimN
      ..Ah, what unfortunate Germans suffered from the Russian barbarian Marinesco ...! Have pity on them and repent ...!

      They won’t wait, it will be necessary - we’ll break it down.
      Quote: vadimN
      "Gustlov" walked with blackout, without Red Cross insignia, with weapons on board.

      And even if with a cross and without a weapon. Russians and Germans have a special account. If the Germans and the British were catching downed pilots from the sea, they treated humanely, realizing that their compatriot would be shot down and caught tomorrow. Not with us! Barbaross’s plan was not canceled, and it was implemented. So drown everything that floats.
    2. Garrin
      Garrin 11 January 2013 19: 37 New
      +3
      Quote: vadimN


      After reading the article somewhere in the depths of consciousness, there is a feeling that we are gradually, quietly, for the umpteenth time, for various reasons, trying to instill a sense of guilt for our victories in the Great Patriotic War!

      Yes, this is DAM, eccentric letter Мled such a policy. For all I wanted to be good - a bastard selling.
    3. SASCHAmIXEEW
      SASCHAmIXEEW 12 January 2013 12: 36 New
      +2
      When the parcels from the front, from Ukraine ate it was delicious, but now another parcel and it immediately became bad, "you love to ride, love to carry sledges!"
  40. Garysit
    Garysit 11 January 2013 17: 59 New
    +8
    The author should remember that as a result of the German attack on the USSR, more than 15 million civilians of the USSR died, there is no family in which someone did not die during the war. There is nothing to dissolve the nurse for the killed Germans, they did not spare us. A.I. Marinesko was, is and will be for us a hero, eternal memory to him !!!!
  41. nnz226
    nnz226 11 January 2013 18: 24 New
    +5
    How many of our CIVIL SHIPS WITH RED CROSSES ON THE DECK AND ON THE BOARDS were sunk by the Germans in 1941-42, at least on the Black Sea during the defense of Odessa and Sevastopol ??? !!! As the saying goes: "what we fought for, we ran into it!" There would not have been June 22, 1941, there would have been no January 30, 1945, and May 9, 1945, too! So let the Germans keep quiet in a rag! There were no peaceful markings on "Gustlov"! The Germans admit this too. But to shoot ships with "Red Crosses" on the sides and decks is a war crime.
    1. Alex
      Alex 29 October 2013 14: 36 New
      +3
      Quote: nnz226
      How many of our CIVIL COURTS WITH RED CROSSES ON THE DECK AND ON BOARD

      And something is not visible to the crowd repenting for it. As not even one of their historians is visible who would ask questions: what feat did Otto Kretschmer perform?

      Something is wrong with the brains of our people ...
  42. cool.ya-nikola
    cool.ya-nikola 11 January 2013 18: 24 New
    +3
    Quote: Dimani
    And it would be naive to believe that if instead of Marinesco there was English aviation, they would not attack ... even as if they began ...

    And, they were not particularly shy!
    ... during the famous bombing of Dresden, when 250 thousand inhabitants were killed,

    So, then the same, they, "great humanists, liberals and democrats"! They can do anything, up to the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki! And few people remember that Hiroshima was chosen due to the fact that by that time Tokyo was almost completely burned down, and it was impossible to test the effectiveness of nuclear weapons on it. And, so, how many people died there ... According to some reports, the number of those killed in Tokyo is not inferior to the number of those killed in Hiroshima. And now the American ambassador to Estonia is hypocritically shedding crocodile tears over the "barbaric" Soviet bombing of Tallinn in 1944!
    And all this guys is called "information war"!
    I strongly advise you to read today's article on the VO website: "Russia in information wars"
    Quote:
    I must say that the information pressure on Russia, namely as Russia (not just as an Orthodox country, but as Russia) began in the 1820s after the end of the Napoleonic Wars. The British understood very well that their main adversary on the continent was Russia.

    Concerning the article, it’s better than what is said, perhaps!
    Quote: vadimN
    Let the Germans repent of their crimes, but Marinesco paid them for these crimes!
    1. mamba
      mamba 12 January 2013 00: 28 New
      +3
      Quote: cool.ya-nikola
      Hiroshima was chosen due to the fact that by that time Tokyo was almost completely burned, and it was impossible to verify the effectiveness of nuclear weapons on it.

      Hiroshima and Nagasaki were selected as targets for the atomic bombings long before the burning of Tokyo. Therefore, they were not bombed at all, including in order to "test the effectiveness of nuclear weapons." These were "control" targets.
      1. Cosmos-1869
        Cosmos-1869 12 January 2013 20: 01 New
        +1
        > Hiroshima and Nagasaki were selected as targets for the atomic bombings long before the burning of Tokyo. Therefore, they were not bombed at all, including in order to "test the effectiveness of nuclear weapons." These were "control" targets.
        http://rocketpolk44.narod.ru/yas/a-bomb.htm
      2. I think so
        I think so 12 January 2013 20: 35 New
        +2
        You wrote nonsense ... and asked Nagasaki for bombing almost a few days before ... And Nagasaki was bombed because of the weather instead of Kyoto ... Instead of being bombed by the p. these cities simply because there was NO military infrastructure at all ...
        1. mamba
          mamba 12 January 2013 21: 18 New
          +1
          Thank you Cosmos-1869 for an interesting link and put a plus. I read it with interest. hi
          I admit my mistake I think so and thank you for your comment. You are also a plus. hi
        2. Cynic
          Cynic 12 January 2013 22: 45 New
          +2
          Quote: I think so
          You wrote nonsense ...

          For your information
          On May 10, a committee on the selection of targets for the atomic bombing met. On the recommendation of the committee, the Air Force leadership ordered four Japanese cities — Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Niigata, Kokura — to be excluded from the bombing schedule.

          This is from here http://rocketpolk44.narod.ru/yas/a-bomb.htm
          For thoughtfully studying the official documents of a potential enemy, the dumping of two nuclear bombs was not made for the Emperor of Japan, it was a sign to Uncle Joe that the world had changed again.
          Yes, there were three bombs, where is the third? I don’t believe in the philanthropy of the Yusovites!
          wink
          1. mamba
            mamba 13 January 2013 00: 37 New
            0
            Colleague I think sowithout quoting my post to the end, he allowed the ambiguity of the interpretation of his post already.
            I realized that he was arguing with me about what happened before, the burning of Tokyo or the choice of targets for atomic bombing. recourse And here I agreed with him.
            And you probably argue with him about when the decision was made on atomic bombings: May 10 or a few days before August 6.
            As for the third bomb, it was tested on July 16 in the state of New Mexico in the Death Valley. It was a Trinity with a plutonium-239 charge. soldier
            1. Cynic
              Cynic 13 January 2013 17: 19 New
              0
              Quote: mamba
              As for the third bomb, it was tested

              As an assumption.
              The starting position of the bombs is two, goals then? One main, the second spare and get three at a minimum. Well, the fourth, the stock pocket does not pull. Only three bombs are drawn more, four goals! Modestly and tastefully!
              Further ideas about the third dime a dozen, from voiced / official: What are you? There were two of them! Until it fell, it didn’t explode and (!) Then the Russians stole it!
              Few people strongly emphasize that one of the ships of the US Navy participating in the transportation of atomic bombs was sunk almost immediately after the completion of the mission! A little earlier and ... Accident? Or the project was not only in the USSR, but also in Japan! Or ours leaked Old?
              1. Alex
                Alex 29 October 2013 14: 50 New
                +3
                Quote: Cynic
                As an assumption.
                The starting position of the bombs is two, goals then? One main, the second spare and get three at a minimum. Well, the fourth, the stock pocket does not pull. Only three bombs are drawn more, four goals! Modestly and tastefully!

                No, there were only two bombs for combat use. They tested several parameters at once: the method of creating a knitic mass (volume crimping by explosion or the combination of two parts of a critical mass), the type of fissile material (uranium-235 or plutonium-239), the height of the detonation of the ammunition, and some other points.
                As for the choice of goals, I heard that initially there were more of them (it seems that even eight, but I will not insist, I do not remember the source). This stock can be fully explained by purely technical problems, the most important of which was that the B-29 often experienced problems with normal take-off and emergency landing with SUCH ammunition on board. In short, they simply feared that a unique bomb might explode during an emergency during take-off (this happened several times during training flights with simulated flight). Then they decided to start with an unpowered bomb, and bring them into a combat situation immediately before reaching the target. Also not ideal, but still something. So it turns out that if it was impossible to bomb the intended target No. 1, it would be nice to have a couple located nearby, because few people were happy with returning home with a bomb ready for explosion.
                I do not insist on the correctness of my version, but this is not the fruit of my personal conclusions.
                1. Cynic
                  Cynic 29 October 2013 18: 40 New
                  0
                  Quote: Alex
                  I do not insist on the correctness of my version, but this is not the fruit of my personal conclusions.

                  For this, a site has been created for the exchange of views / versions.
                  It’s a pity that we will never know the truth; as always, they will declassify something corresponding to the moment in time.
                  drinks
          2. Beck
            Beck 13 January 2013 20: 10 New
            +1
            Quote: Cynic
            the drop of two nuclear bombs was not made for the emperor of Japan, it was a sign to Uncle Joe that the world had changed again.


            You also wrote a frivolous thing.

            After the capture of Okinawa, and after the end of the war in Europe, Japan was offered to surrender. The Japanese government refused, claiming that on the islands of the metropolis, Japan would fight to the last soldier.

            The General Staff of the US Army began to prepare plans for invading the islands, given the fanaticism and combat qualities of the enemy. According to these plans, it turned out that the war could drag on by 1-1,5. The losses of the American army can reach up to 1 million soldiers, the Japanese army up to 3 million, plus 2-3 million civilians in Japan. By this time, atomic bombs were made and reported to the American government.

            The US government had a choice - Continue the war by conventional means, prolonging the war by 1-1,5 and killing a total of 6-7 million people or Demonstrate new weapons while destroying 200 thousand Japanese and get immediate surrender of Japan. The US government has chosen the second option.

            One more circumstance was applied here. Nuclear weapons sooner or later, but would be made public. And then the mothers and relatives of those million American soldiers who died during the occupation of Japan by conventional means would ask the government a question. - How so. You had the most powerful weapons, and you dragged on the war for 1,5 years. You had the most powerful weapon, and you sent 1 million American guys to death.

            Personally, I would not protest if in November 1941, when the German Aoysk were near Moscow, the Soviet aircraft would deliver two nuclear strikes on some German cities. Then Germany would capitulate in December 1945, and not in May 1945. And there would be no 50 million victims in Europe.
            1. Beck
              Beck 13 January 2013 20: 30 New
              0
              I made a little mistake. Read - Germany would capitulate in December 1941, and not in December 1945.
            2. Cynic
              Cynic 13 January 2013 20: 50 New
              0
              Quote: Beck
              The General Staff of the US Army began to prepare plans for invading the islands, given the fanaticism and combat qualities of the enemy. According to these plans, it turned out that the war could drag on by 1-1,5. The losses of the American army can reach up to 1 million soldiers, the Japanese army up to 3 million, plus 2-3 million civilians in Japan. By this time, atomic bombs were made and reported to the American government.

              You all believe in the humanity of the Yusovites.
              By the way, you brought the most optimistic forecast for the war and somehow forgot about the Kwantung Army.
              Pink glasses add a good mood, but do not contribute to health.
              wink
              1. Beck
                Beck 13 January 2013 22: 00 New
                0
                Quote: Cynic
                You all believe in the humanity of the Yusovites.


                What you twitch the meaning of which was not. First of all, the US government felt sorry for its soldiers.

                Quote: Cynic
                By the way, you brought the most optimistic forecast for the war and somehow forgot about the Kwantung Army


                What does the Kwantung army have to do with it. After the bombing of Hiroshima on August 6, the USSR declared a war on August 9, 1945 in violation of the neutrality treaty with Japan. (From a legal point of view, this is bad, but justified). The Neutrality Pact was valid until April 25, 1946, and automatically extended until 1951. On August 9th, a bomb was dropped on Nagasaki. On August 14, Japan accepted all conditions of surrender. On August 17, the commander of the Kwantung Army, General Yamada, ordered the army to cease hostilities and surrender weapons.

                So, in fact, there was no rout as such. Since August 17, the mass surrender of Japanese soldiers.
                1. Cynic
                  Cynic 13 January 2013 22: 37 New
                  0
                  Quote: Beck
                  So, in fact, there was no rout as such. Since August 17, the mass surrender of Japanese soldiers.

                  And at the same time, the irretrievable losses of the Soviet troops amounted to 12031 people, sanitary 24425 people.

                  Especially liked
                  Quote: Beck
                  Quote: Cynic
                  You all believe in the humanity of the Yusovites.

                  What you pull the meaning of which was not.
                  1. Beck
                    Beck 14 January 2013 09: 28 New
                    -1
                    Quote: Cynic
                    And at the same time, the irretrievable losses of the Soviet troops amounted to 12031 people, sanitary 24425 people.


                    So after all, the Kwantung army fought for 8 days, from August 9 to 17. And then she just gave up. It is impossible to defeat an army of 1 million 200 thousand people (along with the co-creators) with losses of 12 thousand soldiers, if the millionth army fiercely resists.


                    Quote: Cynic
                    I especially liked Quote: Beck Quote: CynicYou all believe in the philanthropy of the Yusovites. What are you twitching the meaning of which was not there.


                    It’s like I’m not there and not here your taste predispositions. The question was about the atomic bombing. I answered as best I could. And you are not out of the blue about the humanity of Amers. I did not mention this. I made it clear that the United States did not want victory at all costs of human casualties, especially at the cost of its soldiers. And you tell me about humanity. Here the banal military calculation of the existing millennium is Victory with the most possible the smallest losses.
                    1. Alex
                      Alex 29 October 2013 15: 24 New
                      +2
                      All these songs about the frugality of their soldiers are just a later justification for all the same barbarism. If you want to intimidate the enemy, bomb STRATEGICALLY and POLITICALLY IMPORTANT OBJECTS, and not peaceful, specially chosen cities for slaughter, in one of which there was a camp for captive AMERICAN SOLDIERS, whose lives the American government allegedly worried about.

                      But this tale about the purely military significance of atomic bombings has become so firmly entrenched in many poorly developed brains that almost half of the grief "historians" with foam at the mouth (and other secretions from other organs) will prove that this particular barbarism was the reason for the surrender of Japan. But at the same time, even fish will be bypassed in the duration of silence, when the question is asked why the Americans with such humiliating insistence asked the USSR to enter the war with Japan? Did you also take care of the soldiers? Or was there a small intestine even with an atomic bomb?
            3. Alex
              Alex 29 October 2013 15: 03 New
              +2
              Quote: Beck
              Demonstrate new weapons while killing 200 thousands of Japanese people and get an immediate surrender of Japan.

              Beck, you are always a finger to the sky. Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombed 6 and 9 on August; the surrender was signed by Japan only on 2 of September. And before that, from 9 to 19 on August, Soviet troops defeated the millionth Kwantung army - the only REALLY combat-ready reserve that the Japanese command could use against the Japanese (which explained their warlike rhetoric), even at the cost of losing China. And this despite the fact that the Japanese were confident in observing the USSR’s neutrality (by and large, the USSR did not have any reasons for its violation).
              To continue the war under such conditions simply meant a guaranteed suicide, and only AFTER THIS Japan began to bargain for surrender.
              No thoughts come up?
              1. Beck
                Beck 29 October 2013 20: 42 New
                0
                Quote: Alex
                Beck, you are always a finger to the sky.


                And you, as always, with your finger in ..., excuse me, but this is the answer to your illiterate shamelessness.

                Quote: Alex
                Hiroshima and Nagasaki were bombed on August 6 and 9, the surrender was signed by Japan only on September 2. And before that, from August 9 to 19, Soviet troops defeated the millionth Kwantung army


                After the bombing of Hiroshima, the Japanese government sent a special commission to the ruined city. The commission reported a disaster. The government was slow. After the bombing of Nagasaki on August 9, August 10, the Japanese government accepted all the Postdam conditions of surrender, except for the preservation of imperial power, the United States rejected this. On August 14, Japan accepted all conditions and On August 15, 1945, the entire imperial army was ordered to cease hostilities. It was an actual surrender. The formal signing took place on September 2. Just like in Berlin, hostilities were discontinued on May 2, and the surrender was signed on May 9.

                The United States, in response to the cessation of hostilities from Japan, at noon on August 15, ordered its troops on land, in the air and at sea to also cease all hostilities. The Soviet troops continued military operations, despite the fact that the Japanese troops surrendered without exception, as they were carrying out the order to end hostilities. And how can you think, after that, that the army of millions was outright defeated from Khingan to Port Arthur in 7 days, from August 9 to August 15. It just took 11 days, from August 9 to 22, for the Soviet troops to march from Khingan to Port Arthur in an accelerated march, without Japanese resistance, starting August 15. Give some examples of fierce battles between our troops and the Japanese, such as Operation Bagration, or the capture of Konigsberg.

                And private. My father ended the war as a captain, commander of a battery of 76 mm guns, in Port Arthur. It was he who walked from Khingan to the Pacific Ocean. Even before I got acquainted with the history of 2MB, I heard the stories of my father about the mass surrender, without resistance, of Japanese soldiers. And there was even a moment when the father, along with the orderly, escorted about 2 thousand Japanese prisoners of war. Fortunately, they were disciplined.
  43. Captain45
    Captain45 11 January 2013 18: 30 New
    +6
    Plusanul vadimN because I support his point of view. Let's remember the roads of July-August 1941, thousands, tens of thousands of civilian refugees and Nazi aircraft, which for fun drives refugees through the fields and roads. Or maybe it wasn't? And "Armenia" is a hospital ship with clearly visible identification marks with a red cross on the decks and a flag on a flagpole. Sunk by Nazi dive bombers in September 1941, on a clear day, there were about 5000 wounded evacuated from Crimean hospitals to the Caucasus on the ship. This episode of the war is very well described in the book of the former chief of staff of the Yalta partisan region Ilya Vergasov "Crimean notebooks." So, as the saying goes, "there is no reason to blame the mirror, if the face is crooked." It was not the Soviet Union that crossed the German border on June 22, 1941, and we did not come up with To destroy the civilian population. Kohl got under the distribution there is nothing to whine. And Marinesco is great, in a storm, two large steamers to the bottom, taking into account the fact that the ammunition on Eskah is 12 torpedoes, a classic torpedo attack. The Germans themselves started with "Luisitania" in 1915.
  44. deman73
    deman73 11 January 2013 18: 47 New
    +1
    maybe it’s enough to review the history of the war he and his team heroes they fulfilled their military duty and fulfilled it with honor or they all forgot how the Germans drowned our ships and with the wounded and with refugees and the Germans were enemies and for me personally a truce until I never come too many relatives died in the war
  45. Uncle
    Uncle 11 January 2013 19: 14 New
    +1
    In contrast to all this, it remains to add that Marinesko was kicked out of the fleet for drunkenness and poor discipline. Marinesko got the job warehouse. They finally got drunk and began to drink drunk state property entrusted to him. He was caught and convicted in 1949 for 3 of the year. I heard that he was put behind a bucket of coal, which he took from a huge pile to heat the house. Who knows, give information, it is very important for what the legendary man was sitting. And then we loved the hero to roll on Kolyma, remember, at least Devyatayev ...
    It is not known who first launched the bike announcing Marinesco as Hitler's personal enemy Was Hitler's enemy or not? Does anyone know for sure? Answer me.
  46. Kibl
    Kibl 11 January 2013 19: 26 New
    +1
    In Soviet times, in Liepaja, on the base of the submarine, there was also a bust of A. Marinesko, a hero was a man !!!
  47. Voodoo
    Voodoo 11 January 2013 20: 44 New
    -4
    Article-reflection, and in everything. It is a difficult question whether to consider the "attack of the century" justified or not. Here many compare the similar actions of the German military. Right. But do not forget, the entire fascist ideology is built on the total destruction of the "lower races". In our ideology of that time, this, in my opinion, was not observed. What Marinesco was thinking at that hour: about the millions of Soviet people who died, about the atrocities of the Nazis, about his duty to the Motherland, about the professional duties of a military sailor-submariner, about the large tonnage of the sunk ship recorded at his expense, so as not to lag behind his fellow submariners and etc .... only God knows. One thing is non-negotiable - he did everything right from a professional and military point of view. Emotions ?? Morality concepts ?? If he saw at close range children, pregnant women and other civilians who were turned upside down with horror and pain, the consequences of the attack, so to speak, he might have shot himself ... And so - another warship with a Nazi flag at the bottom .. That's it. the rest is secondary.
    1. Cynic
      Cynic 12 January 2013 17: 26 New
      +2
      Quote: Voodoo
      Here many compare the similar actions of the German military. Right. But do not forget, the entire fascist ideology is built on the total destruction of the "lower races".

      How beautifully said
      Quote: Voodoo
      similar actions by the German military

      Have you even understood that you have equalized the sinking of a hospital ship with all the decals and military vehicles!
      Despite the mixed opinions of the article, I find its appearance useful.
      It is very significant that a greater number of site visitors were in solidarity, despite the rating sign!
  48. Goldmitro
    Goldmitro 11 January 2013 23: 03 New
    +3
    To the question of what is considered a crime during the Second World War? Here is the ambulance with big red crosses on the deck of the m / v "Armenia", which was sunk on the Black Sea in November 1941 by German aircraft, who saw perfectly well that this ambulance ship had more than 5000 people: wounded, refugees from besieged Sevastopol, women , incl. pregnant women, children ... and according to some sources, only 8 people were saved !!! And, unfortunately, there are no heartbreaking memories of the survivors of how these people died. Or another episode, which gentlemen from the Luftwaffe do not like to remember - with the aim of intimidating the CARPET Bombing of Stalingrad by German aircraft in 1942, which was downtrodden by refugees, which the Germans knew very well. Killed, according to some information, about 500 thousand people, civilians, old people, women, children. And the fact of the death of more than 27 MILLION Soviet people, of whom the overwhelming majority are civilians? How many stories, monstrous in cruelty and tragedy, can the survivors of this hell of war tell. So we didn’t start this war, we didn’t define the extremely cruel way of waging this war, violating all international norms. The Nazis began all this and themselves doomed their people to numerous sacrifices, incl. among the civilian population, (which, however, cannot be compared with the victims suffered by the USSR) There could be no other way in such a war!
  49. lBEARl
    lBEARl 11 January 2013 23: 33 New
    0
    The author of the article tries to focus on the quantitative ratio of combatants and non-combatants on board. And it seems - this is not in favor of the honor and courage of A. Marinesco - they say he drowned so many innocent souls. However, the ship belonged to the enemy's naval forces, the ship did not have special marks indicating its belonging to the civilian or "sanitary" fleet, but on the contrary was painted in the colors of the kingsmarine. On board the ship, there were a large number of so-called combatants (simpler military personnel), who could later use weapons against the USSR. The USSR and Germany were at war. As mentioned above, Marinesco should not have asked the passengers of the military (registered military) transport to present an identity document for the purpose of assessing the legality or unlawfulness of the use of weapons against this card. Since the refugees climbed on the same ship with the military men, that's where they go
  50. mamba
    mamba 12 January 2013 00: 49 New
    +3
    Before Marinesco was "kicked out of the fleet for drunkenness", our admirals actively persecuted him. Envy is a terrible thing that eats away at the soul, but it is a motivation for undercover games, as a result of which, some admirals, who did not participate in a single naval battle, were able to pave their tunics with orders, including military leaders, and peck and rot the hero-submariner ... The slogan "cadres decide everything" in the Admiralty means that it is its cadres who decide everything.
    For some reason, the names of these scoundrels are still not named. But they put so much effort to even bury the memory of Alexander Ivanovich. Shame on them in this and the next world. Glory to the hero-submariner Marinesco!