Feat Marinesko and tragedy “Gustloffa”

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Feat Marinesko and tragedy “Gustloffa”


30 January 1945 year, the submarine "C-13" at the command of Alexander Marinesko sank the German ship "William Gustlov." According to various sources, from 4 to 8 thousand people died then. This is still the most terrible sea disaster. Why didn’t Marinesco be given the title Hero of the Soviet Union, and was the feat of his crew really a feat, or were German civilians on board?



We turn first to the official Soviet sources:

The C-13 submarine under the command of captain 3 rank A.I. Marinesko 30 on January 1945 sank to the north-west of Danzig Bay, the German airliner Wilhelm Gustlov displaced in 25 484 tons, on board which was over XNNX tons, on board which was over XNNX tons, onboard which was more than XNNX toned on 6 9 13 14 660 13. The Admiral Hipper cruiser, destroyers and minesweepers could no longer provide any assistance to the transport. Fearing the attacks of Soviet boats, they hurriedly retreated to the west. The same C-XNUMX submarine sank the ship "February." Steuben "with a displacement of XNUMX XNUMX tons. For military success in this campaign, the submarine C-XNUMX was awarded the Order of the Red Banner. "

That's all that is said about the achievements of Marinesko in "Stories Of the Great Patriotic War of the Soviet Union 1941-1945 ". You should pay attention to the words" 6 thousand people "and" ship ".
But he wrote in his opus "Sea Captain" (publishing house "Soviet Writer", 1984) politician A. Kron:

"On January 30, 1945, the S-13 submarine under the command of the 3rd rank captain A. I. Marinesko sank a giant fascist airliner in the Stolpmünde area fleet "William Gustlov" with a displacement of 25 tons, on board of which were more than seven thousand fascists evacuated from Danzig under the blows of the advancing Soviet troops: soldiers, officers and senior representatives of the Nazi elite, executioners and punishers. More than three thousand trained submariners — about seventy crews for new submarines of the Hitler fleet — were on Gustlova, which had served as a naval base for a diving school before going to sea. In the same campaign, Marinesco torpedoed a large military transport "General Steuben", 484 soldiers and officers of the Wehrmacht were transported from Koenigsberg on it. "

And now the "Big Encyclopedic Dictionary", 1997:

MARINESKO Al-dr Iv. (1913-63), submariner, captain of the 3 rank (1942), Hero of the Soviet Union (1990, see). In the Great Patriotic War, commanding the submarine "S- 13 "(1943-45), drowned in the district of Danzig Bay 30 Jan. 1945 is mute. Superliner" Wilhelm Gustlov "(who had on board St. 5 thousands of soldiers and officers, including approx. 1300 submariners) and February 10 - auxiliary cruiser "General Steuben" (St. 3 thousand soldiers and officers). After the war, he worked in Leningrad Shipping Company, then on s-de. "

There is a trend - first in Gustlov, according to official historiography, there were 6 thousand PEOPLE, then Krona 7 thousand FASCISTS, among which over 3 thousand submariners, and finally again in the official source - 5 thousand soldiers and officers, among which only 1300 submariners. As for the "Steuben", which is called the steamer, it is a major military transport, then the auxiliary cruiser (and Kron in his opus called it just a cruiser), the Germans called auxiliary cruisers civilians armed with 5-7 guns.

It is not known who first launched the bike about declaring Marinesko Hitler's personal enemy and about mourning after the sinking of “Gustlov”. According to Soviet sources, mourning was, according to German - no. However, there is no doubt that indeed no other such small unit destroyed such a large number of German citizens at one time. Even during the famous bombardment of Dresden, when the 250 of thousands of inhabitants were killed, several thousand pilots participated in it. However, neither then nor after the sinking of “Gustlov” was mourning declared - the Germans did not advertise these losses in order not to give cause for panic among the German population.

So who and how many drowned Marinesko? Several thousand people or fascist executioners or the military? In various sources, the composition of the passengers "Gustlova" varies greatly. By the number of drowned - from 4 to 8 thousands. In terms of composition, they simply say “refugees”, then “refugees and military”, then “refugees, military, wounded and imprisoned”.

The most detailed figures about the passengers "Gustlova" are as follows:

918 military sailors, 373 from the female auxiliary of the fleet, 162 wounded soldiers, 173 crew member (civilian seamen) and 4424 refugee. Total 6050. In addition to these, listed, on board the "Gustlov" managed to get even 2 thousands of refugees. A total of 876 people were saved. Killed 16 officers of the training division of the submarine forces, 390 cadets, 250 female military personnel, 90 crew members, as well as wounded military personnel. Such is the military damage caused by the sinking of the Gustlov.

As for those who drowned at the Steuben, it really (as it was written in Soviet sources) had more than 3 thousand soldiers and officers — 2680 wounded and 100 healthy military personnel, 270 medical personnel, as well as 285 crew members and about 900 refugees. A total of 659 people were saved. Some sources include the Stoiben sinking in the first line of the list of the largest by the number of victims of sea disasters. By the way, the sinking of "Gustlov" is always present on such lists - either in the first or second place in the number of deaths in the entire history of navigation. If in the second place they call "Gustlov", then in the first place they call either the sinking of "Goya" (Soviet submarine L-3 on April 17, 1945) - from 5 to 7 thousand refugees, or the sinking of the ship Cap Arkona (British aviation May 3, 1945), as a result of which 5 thousand prisoners drowned.

Now imagine how this event looked at the historical background.

Germany is irresistibly heading for the abyss. This is understood even by those who until recently shouted "Heil Hitler!" The flames of war are raging in the land of the Third Reich. Soviet Tanks rumble on the roads leading to Berlin, flying fortresses terrify the German soldiers retreating orderly.

In early February, the Heads of the Governments of the Allied Powers met in 1945 in Crimea to discuss measures to ensure the final defeat of fascist Germany and outline ways for a postwar world order.

At the very first meeting in the Livadia Palace in Yalta, Churchill asked Stalin: when would Soviet troops seize Danzig, where are a certain number of German submarines under construction and ready? He asked to speed up the seizure of this port.

The anxiety of the English premiere was understandable. The military efforts of Great Britain and the supply of its population largely depended on shipping. However, wolf packs of fascist submarines continued to rage on the sea lanes. Although, of course, their effectiveness was no longer the same as in the first years of the war, when it turned out that British ships were simply powerless against the threat of German U-shek. Danzig was one of the main nests of the fascist underwater pirates. Here was the German High School of Diving, the floating barracks for which was the liner "Wilhelm Gustlov".

But the English Prime Minister was late with his question. In Danzig, volleys of Soviet guns and Katyushas were already heard. Started a hasty escape the enemy. “Thousands of soldiers, sailors and civilians plunged into the" Wilhelm Gustlov. " Half of the passengers of the liner were highly qualified specialists - the color of the Nazi submarine fleet. Strong security at sea was to ensure the safety of their transition from Danzig to Kiel. The convoy included the cruiser Admiral Hipper, the destroyers and minesweepers. ” So follows from the Soviet post-war sources. In fact, among the 9000 refugees, the overwhelming majority were civilians, otherwise they would have been detained as deserters, or, conversely, reduced to some kind of team. In general, it is strange to assume among the 9000 refugees an absolute absence of some kind of military, for example, one-legged veterans of the Franco-Prussian war. All underwater German elite died 42-44's. And the whole convoy consisted of one (!) Minesweeper.

At the end of January 1945, the Soviet submarine "C-13" under the command of Alexander Marinesko entered the bay of Danzig.

30 January in the sea broke out a violent storm. The cabin of the boat, antennas and periscopes are quickly covered with a thick layer of ice. The commander and commissar peer into the darkness with pain in their eyes. And then the silhouette of a huge vessel appeared.

"C-13" and at about twenty-three o'clock on January 30 attacks the enemy vessel: several torpedoes one after another rush to the target. There is a strong explosion - and "Wilhelm Gustlov" goes to the bottom.

A Hitlerite officer Heinz Schön, who was aboard the liner, in his book "The Death of Wilhelm Gustlav", published in West Germany, confirms that 30 January 1945 was not torpedoed by a Soviet submarine near Danzig which killed more than five thousand people. “If this incident can be considered a catastrophe,” the author writes, “then it was undoubtedly the biggest catastrophe in the history of navigation, compared to which even the death of the“ Titanic ”facing the iceberg in 1913 year om - nothing.

On the Titanic, 1517 people died. This tragedy shook all humanity then. No one regretted about "Wilhelm Gustlov".

Heinz Shep describes in detail the story of the death of the liner:

"Wilhelm Gustloff was under double command - like a ship, the liner was headed by the captain of the merchant fleet Friedrich Petersen, and as a floating unit of the 2 training division of the submarine, the liner was led by a naval officer Wilhelm Zahn.

By the evening of January 22, 1945, the liner was prepared for the voyage and loading of passengers - thousands of exhausted, frostbitten, and injured refugees. The thermometer showed 14 degrees below zero, chaos and collapse reigned around.

In the harbor of Gotenhafn, there were about 60 thousands of refugees, and as soon as the gangways were installed, thousands of people rushed to the assault. During the landing, many children, in the resulting crush, were separated from their parents.

About 400 girls - employees of the women's auxiliary organization of the Navy, aged from 17 to 25 years, climbed on board the ship. They were placed in the swimming pool on the deck of E. Of course, the girls were more than happy, in view of the imminent Soviet occupation of East Prussia, to leave Gotenhafn. On the morning of January 29, another hospital train arrived in Gotenhafn, the wounded were placed on the sun deck.

Now on board was about 7-8 thousands of people, but how many of them were exactly, could not be established to this day. The liner was literally packed, and the cabins, and the corridors and aisles, were crowded.

As an air defense, a pair of anti-aircraft guns was installed on the upper deck. Rescue facilities were provided about 60% of passengers.

On Tuesday, 30 January, 12.30 local time, the 4 tugboat approached the liner and took it from the pier. The weather conditions were bad - wind with a force up to 7 points, temperature 10 degrees below zero, sludge (small loose ice - approx. M. Volchenkova).

I was appointed as an anti-aircraft crew chief. On the way out, icing started on the decks, and we had to constantly clear the tools from the ice. A minesweeper was ahead of the liner to search for and destroy mines. It got dark and it got even colder. Downstairs, the feelings of joy and relief were replaced by depression, because many refugees began to suffer from motion sickness. But the majority considered themselves completely safe, firmly believing that in a couple of days they would reach Stettin or Denmark.

My watch started at 21.00. Everything was quiet and peaceful. And suddenly, somewhere in 21.10, explosions rang out. At first, I thought that we had hit mines. But later he learned that we were struck by torpedoes, released by the Soviet submarine C-13, commanded by Alexander Marinesko. Thousands of people fell into a panic. Many began to jump overboard into the icy waters of the Baltic. First, the ship tilted to the starboard, but then straightened, and at this time another torpedo hit the liner, in the tank area. We were located on the coast of Stolpmünde, Pomerania. Immediately gave the signal SOS and began to release signal flares.

The impact of the second torpedo fell on the area of ​​the vessel on which the swimming pool was located. Almost all the girls died, they literally tore into pieces. I wanted to go back to my cabin and take a few personal items, but it was already impossible. Thousands of people burst from the lower decks to the top, driven from below by streams of water.

Climbing upstairs, people shouted and shoved incessantly and terribly, those who fell were doomed, they were trampled to death. No one could help the helpless - pregnant women and wounded soldiers. Crowds of people took the lifeboats by storm, and there was no question about the execution of the famous commandment “Women and children are the first!”. Nobody obeyed anyone; those who were physically stronger took the upper hand. Many boats covered with ice could not be lowered altogether, and I watched one of the phallines drop near a row of lowered boats, and the boat dumped all people in it down into icy hell. The liner continued to sink into the water with its nose, the tank rails were already under water, and the launch of the boats became even more difficult.

For a while I stood on the sun deck, watching this nightmare. Some families and individuals who have had personal weapon, they preferred to shoot themselves, rather than die a much more painful death in icy water and darkness. And thousands of others continued to cling to the liner, while he continued to dive.

I thought I could not get out. I jumped into the water and began to quickly sail off to the side so that I would not be dragged into the funnel. At first, the cold was not felt at all, and soon I was able to catch hold of the cram of the crowded lifeboat (special rescue lines were stretched along the sides of the lifeboats for this very purpose - auth.). The picture I discovered was truly awful. The children, who were wearing life jackets, turned upside down, and only their helplessly jerking legs stood out above the water. The dead were already swimming around. The air was filled with cries of the dying and calls for help. Two children clung to me, they shouted and called for their parents. I managed to lift them aboard the boat, but they were saved or not, I never found out.

Then I felt my weakness - hypothermia occurred. I was able to hook onto a metal rescue raft - at a distance of about 50 yards from the sinking liner. The nose almost completely plunged, the stern rose into the air, and hundreds of people were still there, screaming wildly. Immersion speed increased. Then, suddenly, there was a dead silence. Wilhelm Gustloff disappeared under the water, taking with them the lives of thousands of people. The largest disaster in the history of navigation lasted approximately 50 minutes.

For about 20 minutes, the scariest minutes of my life, I just swam somewhere. From time to time I was covered with ice slush. The screams around me grew quieter and more and more rare. Then something happened that I consider a miracle. I saw a shadow approaching me and shouted, gathering my last strength. I was noticed and raised on board.

Save me torpedo boat T-36. The crew of the boat helped us, saved, by all available means - hot tea, massage. But many of the rescued were dying on board, from hypothermia and shock. Among those rescued were pregnant women, and it just so happened that the crew members had to try themselves as midwives that night. Born three children. The T-36 was part of a squadron commanded by Lieutenant Herring, whose task was to escort the heavy cruiser Admiral Hipper. The cruiser also came from East Prussia, having refugees on board. Suddenly the boat abruptly changed course, howling cars. As I later found out, we noticed the trail of two torpedoes, one passed on the starboard side, from the other the boat was able to evade a sharp maneuver. The turn was so steep that part of the rescued on the upper deck fell overboard and sank. But the 550 man was saved. Due to the great danger of the submarine’s repeated attack, the boat departed from the crash site and in 02.00 on January 31 arrived in Sashstitz. The rescued were overloaded on board the Prinz Olaf Danish floating hospital, which was anchored there. Many were sent, on stretchers, to the shore. We, the sailors, were placed in the barracks. Lieutenant Herring was on the bridge all the time and saluted when the last rescued left the side of the boat. As I later learned, only 996 people of about 8000 aboard were saved.

We, escaped sailors, once again escaped death. As sailors of the German Navy, we were all comrades, we loved our homeland and believed that we were doing the right thing by protecting it. We did not consider ourselves heroes, and our death is heroic, we just did our duty. "

Ten days later, the boat of Marinesko sank another ship, the liner General von Steuben, 3500 people died ...

Why Marinesko did not give Hero, but almost at the first opportunity fired from the fleet? More than he, none of the Soviet submariners did not. Is it because of drunkenness? Or was it just an excuse, and the motives were different?

Perhaps there was an ordinary policy here. Let's count - a couple of volleys, in one campaign, Marinesko sent to the next world, according to the most conservative estimates, over 10 thousand people! The death of “Gustlova” was the largest sea catastrophe in the history of mankind, “Titanic”, compared with the victorious volleys of Marinesko, looks like a boat turned over on a pond with drunken vacationers. Steeper Marinesko were, perhaps, only the crews of those B-29 that tamed Japan - atomic bombs. But in general, the figures are comparable. Here and there - tens of thousands. Only, however, Marinesko did without atomic bombs, only two at that time on the entire planet. Marinesko and a dozen torpedoes was enough.

It is likely that the destruction of Gustlov was embarrassed, because for the occupied Germany they were preparing batches of bread, they wanted to win over the Germans, and then the death of such a large number of people, partly civil, from the torpedoes of one small submarine.

Finally - about the Marinesko. His mother was Ukrainian, and his father served in his youth as a fireman on a warship of the Royal Romanian Navy. After some quarrel with the authorities, my father fled to Russia and settled in Odessa. The growing up Alexander Marinesko graduated from school as a young man, and then in the thirties - and the Odessa Nautical School. Sailed on ships in the Black Sea. As a long-distance navigator Marinesko was drafted into the Navy and after studying he asked for a submarine.

Always calm, confident, he was very persistent in his skill in achieving his goals. In command of the ship, he never raised his voice, did not shout at his subordinates. All this created for him an unshakable authority, he deserved the love and respect of the sailors.

In contrast to all this, it remains to add that Marinesko was kicked out of the fleet for drunkenness and poor discipline. Marinesko got the job warehouse. They finally got drunk and began to drink drunk state property entrusted to him. He was caught and convicted in 1949 for 3 of the year.

As you can see, Alexander Marinesko is a rather controversial figure. And the feat can be interpreted differently ... Despite all the contradictions, the award nevertheless found a submariner: in 1990, he was posthumously awarded the golden star of the Hero of the Soviet Union.

http://renascentia.narod.ru/

Feat Marinesko and tragedy "Gustloff"

Alexander Marinesko is one of the most controversial figures of the Great Patriotic War, around which controversy has not yet subsided. A man covered with many myths and legends. Unjustly forgotten, and then returned from oblivion.

Today in Russia they are proud of him, perceived as a national hero. Last year a monument to Marinesko appeared in Kaliningrad, his name was entered in the Golden Book of St. Petersburg. Quite a few books have been published on his exploits, among them is the recently published Submariner Number 1 by Vladimir Borisov. And in Germany, he still can not forgive the death of the ship "Wilhelm Gustlof." We call this famous military episode "the attack of the century", while the Germans consider it to be the largest maritime disaster, perhaps even more terrible than the death of "Titanic."

It would not be an exaggeration to say that the name Marinesko in Germany is known to everyone, and the theme of "Gustloff" today, many years later, stirs the press and public opinion. Especially recently, after it came out in Germany and almost immediately became the best-selling novel The Trajectory of the Crab. Its author, a well-known German writer and Nobel Prize winner Günther Grass, opens unknown pages for East Germans to flee to the west, and the Gustloff catastrophe is in the center of events. For many Germans, the book has become a real revelation ...

It is not for nothing that the death of “Gustloff” is called “sheltered tragedy”, the truth about which both sides hid for a long time: we always said that the ship was the color of the German submarine fleet and never mentioned thousands of dead refugees, and the post-war Germans who grew up with a sense of repentance the crimes of the Nazis, silent about this story, because they feared accusations of revanchism. Those who tried to talk about the dead at Gustlof, about the horrors of the Germans fleeing from East Prussia, were immediately perceived as “far right”. It was only with the fall of the Berlin Wall and the entry into a united Europe that it became possible to more calmly look to the east and talk about a lot, which was not customary to recall for a long time ...

Price "attack of the century"

Whether we want it or not, we still don’t get around the question: what did Marinesko drown — the warship of the Hitlerite elite or the refugee ship? What happened in the Baltic Sea on the night of January 30 1945?

In those days, the Soviet army advanced rapidly to the West, in the direction of Koenigsberg and Danzig. Hundreds of thousands of Germans, fearing retribution for the atrocities of the Nazis, became refugees and moved to the port city of Gdynia - the Germans called him Gotenhafen. On January 21, grand-admiral Karl Doenitz issued an order: "All German ships that are available must save all that can be saved from the Soviets." The officers received an order to redeploy submariner cadets and their military property, and in any free box of their ships to accommodate refugees, and especially women and children. Operation Hannibal was the largest evacuation of the population in the history of navigation: over two million people were sent to the west.

Gotenhafen was the last hope for many refugees - there were not only large warships, but also large liners, each of which could take on board thousands of refugees. One of them was the "Wilhelm Gustlof", which seemed unsinkable to the Germans. Built in 1937 year, a magnificent cruise ship with a cinema and a swimming pool served as the pride of the Third Reich, it was intended to show the world the achievements of Nazi Germany. Hitler himself participated in the descent of the ship, which was his personal cabin. For Hitler’s Cultural Leisure Cultural Organization, the liner delivered holidaymakers to Norway and Sweden for a year and a half, and with the start of World War II, became the naval squadron of the 2 cadet training division and scuba diving.

30 January 1945 of the Year Gustlof went out on its last flight from Gotenhafen. About how many refugees and military were on board, data from German sources differ. As for the refugees, before 1990, the figure was almost constant, since many of the survivors of that tragedy lived in the GDR - and there this topic was not subject to discussion. Now they began to give testimony, and the number of refugees has grown to ten thousand people. In relation to the military, the figure almost did not change - it is within a thousand and a half people. Counting was done by “passenger assistants”, one of which was Heinz Schön, who became the chronicler of the death of Gustloff after the war and authored several documentary books on this subject, including The Catastrophe of Gustloff and SOS - Wilhelm Gustlof.

The submarine "C-13" under the command of Alexander Marinesko hit the liner with three torpedoes. The surviving passengers left terrible memories of the last minutes of the "Gustlofa". People tried to escape on rescue rafts, but most kept only a few minutes in icy water. Nine ships participated in the rescue of its passengers. The horrific paintings bump into the memory forever: children's heads are heavier than the legs, and therefore only the legs are visible on the surface. A lot of children's feet ...

So, how many managed to survive in this disaster? According to Shen, 1239 people survived, half of them, 528 people - personnel of German submariners, 123 man of auxiliary female navy, 86 injured, 83 crew member and only 419 refugees. These figures are well known in Germany and today it makes no sense to hide them here. Thus, 50% of submariners survived and only 5% of refugees survived. We have to admit that, basically, women and children died - they were completely unarmed before the war. Such was the price of the “attack of the century,” and this is why in Germany today many Germans consider Marinesko’s actions a war crime.

Refugees become hostages of a ruthless military machine

However, we will not rush to conclusions. The question here is much deeper - about the tragedy of war. Even the fairest war is inhuman, because civilians are the first to suffer from it. According to the inexorable laws of war, Marinesko sank a warship, and it is not his fault that he sank the ship with refugees. A huge fault in the tragedy lies with the German command, which was guided by military interests and did not think about civilians.

The fact is that "Gustlof" left Gotenhafen without proper escort and earlier than planned, without waiting for escort ships, since it was necessary to urgently transfer German submariners from the already surrounded East Prussia. The Germans knew that this area was especially dangerous for ships. The fateful lights included on the Gustlof after the message was received about the movement of a team of German minesweepers towards it played a fatal role - it was along these lights that Marinesko discovered the liner. And finally, on his last voyage, the ship did not leave as a hospital ship, but as a military vehicle, painted gray and equipped with anti-aircraft guns.

Until now, Schen’s figures are practically unknown to us, and data continues to be used that the Gustlof lost the color of the German submarine fleet - the 3700 sailors, which could be completed from 70 to 80 submarines. This figure, taken from the message of the Swedish newspaper "Aftonbladet" from February 2 1945, was considered indisputable in our country and was not questioned. Until now, unusually tenacious legends, created back in 1960-s from the light hand of the writer Sergey Sergeyevich Smirnov, who then raised the unknown pages of the war - Marinesko's feat and the defense of the Brest Fortress. But no, Marinesko was never "Hitler's personal enemy", and three-day mourning in Germany over the death of "Gustloff" was not declared. This was not done for the simple reason that thousands of people were waiting for the evacuation by sea, and the news of the disaster would have caused panic. Mourning was declared by Wilhelm Gustloff himself, the leader of the National Socialist Party in Switzerland, who was killed in 1936, and his murderer, student David Frankfurter, was named Hitler's personal enemy.

Why do we still do not dare to name the true scale of the tragedy? It is sad to admit it, but we are afraid that the Marinesko feat will fade. However, today even many Germans understand: the German side provoked Marinesco. “It was a brilliant military operation, thanks to which the initiative of domination in the naval war in the Baltic was firmly intercepted by the Soviet sailors,” said Yury Lebedev, deputy director of the A. Marinesko Museum of Submarine Forces of Russia. “With its actions, the C-13 submarine approached The end of the war. It was a strategic success of the Soviet navy, and for Germany it was the biggest maritime disaster. Marinesko’s feat is that he destroyed the seemingly unsinkable symbol of Nazism, a dream ship that propagates " The Third Reich ". And the civilians who were on the ship became hostages of the German military machine. Therefore, the tragedy of the death of" Gustloff "is not an accusation of Marinesko, but of Nazi Germany."

Recognizing that the sunk "Gustlof" were not only German submariners, but also refugees, we will take another step towards the recognition of the historical, though unfavorable fact for us. But it is necessary to get out of this situation, because in Germany "Gustlof" is a symbol of misfortune, and in Russia it is a symbol of our military victories. The issue of Gustlof and Marinesko is very complex and delicate, affecting the present and future of relations between Russia and Germany. It was not for nothing that the Consul General of Germany Ulrich Schening who recently visited the Museum of the Underwater Forces of Russia named after A.I. Marinesko left such an entry in the book of honorable guests: “In 60 years after the tragic events of World War II, the time finally arrived when Russians and Germans were building the future together. this calls for the death of the German airliner "Wilhelm Gustlof" in January 1945. "

Today we have the opportunity, even in such a difficult matter, to go to reconciliation - through historical authenticity. Indeed, in the history there is no black and white colors. And the uniqueness of Marinesko is that his personality does not leave anyone indifferent. His legendary personality may have been prepared for immortality. He became a human legend and will remain it ...
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  1. Dimani
    +54
    11 January 2013 08: 21
    Gustlof was armed and was without the identification marks of a hospital ship ... so the attack was justified .. And it would be naive to believe that if instead of Marinesco there was British aviation, they would not attack ... even as if they began ...
    1. +12
      11 January 2013 13: 35
      Quote: Dimani
      Gustlof was armed

      Exactly !
      The only thing that is significant in the article
      the ship left on its last voyage not as a hospital ship, but as a military vehicle, painted gray and equipped with anti-aircraft guns.

      In conclusion, I can only repeat
      Their feat is not forgotten, their glory is eternal!
    2. +18
      11 January 2013 14: 24
      Quote: Dimani
      Gustlof was armed and was without the identification marks of a hospital ship ... so the attack was justified .. And it would be naive to believe that if instead of Marinesco there was British aviation, they would not attack ... even as if they began ...


      Colleague all these Western attacks on ruthlessness, this is a typical double standard. If the little shaves drowned this galosh, then they would scream to the whole world about the heroic deed of their warriors, and since he was drowned from a Russian torpedo, this is not valor but the barbarism of wild Asians. Those who dare to scream about ruthlessness, let them first read how many ships with refugees the Nazis drowned during the Tallinn crossing. Let them read about the same Dresden 1945.
      1. +7
        11 January 2013 19: 59
        Quote: Sakhalininets
        Colleague all these Western attacks on ruthlessness, this is a typical double standard.

        That's right, but look what I still found.
        "In Yalta on November 7, a memorial service and a mourning ceremony will be held in memory of the motor ship" Armenia ", which died off the coast of Crimea on November 7, 1941. At 11.00, a civil meeting, a memorial service and descent from a boat into the water area of ​​the seaport of wreaths will take place near the chapel on the embankment. A memorial plaque was solemnly unveiled at the chapel on the Yalta embankment in memory of the sinking of the motor ship “Armenia.” The passenger-cargo ship “Armenia” left the port of Sevastopol on November 2009, 6, evacuating the military hospital and residents of the city. 1941 to 4,5 thousand people. On the night of November 7, the ship arrived in Yalta, where it took on board several hundred more. On the morning of November 7, "Armenia" left the Yalta port, and, having covered several tens of kilometers, It was attacked by the German Heinkel He-111 torpedo bomber, although the transport had the distinguishing marks of a medical vessel. As a result of a torpedo hit, the ship sank. Of all those on board, only eight were saved. The “Armenia” catastrophe in terms of the number of victims is one of the largest in world history
        1. mnn_12
          +3
          13 January 2013 17: 53
          People should know these facts. Other countries publicize their tragedies widely, but not so with Russia. For example, for the first time I read about this. How many people outside of Russia know about this tragedy and what are the Russians doing to make them public? It is also important that the Germans started with "Armenia" and "Gustlof" is a consequence. It is not necessary to supply at the same level the aggressor-invader and the defenders.
          1. +3
            13 January 2013 18: 29
            Quote: mnn_12
            People need to know these facts. Other countries widely publicize their tragedies, but not so with Russia. For example, for the first time I read about it.

            He who hears, let him hear, ”the sufferer, may he be satisfied, and the advanced may be saved.

            This is to
            other countries announce
            .
            All summer 1941 is a continuous tragedy. Not one post-war has grown with knowledge of this tragedy. Then later / now it has become fashionable to write / film on the theme of the Second World Type of Comedy, in fact, libel!
            Nobody kept this information secret, it’s just easier to treat someone else’s tragedy as a lie, propaganda they say! Why disturb peace!
            By the way, more about an event closer to you
            June 25, 1941 the commander of the Black Sea Fleet, Vice Admiral F.S. Oktyabrsky received permission from Moscow to carry out a raid operation on shelling Constanta, Romania’s main naval base and large oil storage facilities located there. The shelling was to be carried out by 2 leaders: Kharkov and Moscow. For cover from the sea, a detachment of ships was created consisting of: 2 EM Smyshlenny, Soobrazitelny and LKR Voroshilov. Rear Admiral T.A., commander of the light forces detachment, held his flag on Voroshilov Novikov.

            The leader "Moscow" in this campaign was killed.
            Didn’t know either?
            Their feat is not forgotten, their glory is eternal!
            1. mnn_12
              0
              13 January 2013 22: 17
              Comparison of "Armenia" and "Moscow" is inappropriate, these are incomparable situations. A civil ship with civilians and a military ship on a military raid ...
              And when people die, it is always a tragedy ...
              1. +4
                13 January 2013 22: 23
                I recommend "Ordinary Fascism." M. Romm should be reviewed more often. This film puts everything in its place. And in schools, I would have introduced mandatory viewing.
              2. +1
                14 January 2013 18: 21
                Quote: mnn_12
                Comparison of "Armenia" and "Moscow" is wrong

                And who compares?
                The conversation that, in fact, for Europe, as it is not strange, the Second War is the Unknown War!
      2. Denzel13
        +7
        12 January 2013 12: 07
        Drowned, so they need it. In the concentration camps, they did not particularly stand on ceremony against our women and children.

        The author is specifically wrong in trying to denigrate the actions of the Marinesco crew. What nafig "... an impartial fact for us"?

        This is a fact of heroism and professionalism.
        1. Misantrop
          +2
          27 February 2013 22: 08
          Quote: Denzel13
          The author is specifically wrong in trying to denigrate the actions of the Marinesco crew. What nafig "... an impartial fact for us"?

          And the most unpleasant (not for us, for them) fact is not in quantity and lists the dead, but ... in the list survivors with this torpedo strike. What the hell German citizens should have regretted at war with this country Marinesco, if they openly didn't give a damn their militarythrowing them away from the means of salvation? If these citizens were not needed by those who vowed to defend them by taking the oath, then what should the submariners of the other side require?
      3. +2
        10 February 2013 03: 49
        The West is silent about the tragedy of Armenia!
    3. Kortik
      +16
      11 January 2013 17: 54
      This article is what? An attempt to revise the history of the Second World War? The author th brain fucked? Who protects Such shit and rewrite history. After 10 years, this bastard will write that Marinesco was a villain and a war criminal. Yes, there can be no double interpretation. Marinesco is a hero, the fascists an anathema, and the author is a nerd!
      1. SASCHAmIXEEW
        +2
        12 January 2013 11: 02
        He not only made him a fool, but also a traitor to his Fatherland!
      2. +3
        12 January 2013 23: 56
        Quote: Kortik
        Marinesco is a hero, the fascists an anathema, and the author is a nerd!

        That's right!
    4. SASCHAmIXEEW
      +2
      12 January 2013 10: 58
      In war as in war, but did the Germans spare our people? There they cherished, for which they fought, they got it! Do not spare those who started all this! Zig heil they screamed!
      1. zh1
        +2
        12 January 2013 23: 52
        Denzel, Dirk and Sasha - Have you read the article at all? It says that Marinesco is a hero !!! And the fact that women and children died - he couldn’t find them in any way ... Which means that is not his fault.
        1. mnn_12
          +1
          13 January 2013 05: 01
          Indeed, this is not an ego of guilt. But all the same, it’s humanly good that the hero wasn’t made. You could have been a wonderful person, you couldn’t have been, the important thing here is that you don’t need to do a hero for such a thing. It’s impossible to blame but it’s also not necessary to reward.
          1. +3
            28 October 2013 19: 20
            Quote: mnn_12
            But all the same, it’s humanly good that the hero wasn’t made. You could have been a wonderful person, you couldn’t have been, the important thing here is that you don’t need to do a hero for such a thing. It’s impossible to blame but it’s not necessary to award.

            Then so.
            Otto Kretschmer, sunk of 40 merchant ships, 1 warship and 3 auxiliary warships - Cavalier of the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with oak leaves, swords and diamonds (equivalent to GSS).

            Reinhard Zuren, sunk by 18 merchant ships and 1 warship - Knight of the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with oak leaves, swords and diamonds (equivalent to GSS).

            Wolfgang Lute, sunk by 43 merchant ship and 1 submarine - Cavalier of the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with oak leaves, swords and diamonds (equivalent to GSS).

            Joachim Schepke, sunk of 36 merchant ships and NOT ONE warship - Cavalier of the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with oak leaves.

            This list can be continued for a long time, out of all this camarilla only Gunther Prin looks more dashing - on account of his battleship Royal Oak and the aircraft carrier Pegasus. And they ALL are heroes to the West, although they drowned practically defenseless "merchants". So, if they are heroes, then personally for me Marinesco is an idol!

            Glory to the heroes of that war !!!
        2. Denzel13
          +2
          14 January 2013 12: 03
          We just read that. The author's words "... an unpleasant fact for us" concerning the destruction of this vessel - this is the author's true attitude to this topic.
        3. Misantrop
          +1
          27 February 2013 22: 11
          Quote: zh1
          And the fact that women and children died - he couldn’t find them in any way ... Which means that is not his fault.
          And why the heck in general SO raise the question? A ship in war paint and with a weapon is by definition an enemy. Who is on board is not the attacker's concern
    5. +2
      18 January 2013 15: 54
      I agree completely. The ship was sailing without the identification marks of a hospital ship, moreover, most likely under the flag of the German Navy! Now, put yourself in the position of submarine commander. The commander of the boat correctly classified the target - Wilhelm Gustav, the crew ship of the Kriegsmarine submariners. This is the enemy. So to drown.
  2. itr
    +24
    11 January 2013 08: 26
    Marinesco is a great man!
    1. +10
      11 January 2013 16: 08
      itr"Marinesco is a great guy!"
      Plus, and it’s enough to justify ourselves to the liberals - submariners or refugees, what the hell ... p difference - people who have nothing to fear were not fleeing to the west, got on a military side - be prepared for everything, probably also in b / reflection calculations attacks and fire consisted.
  3. +38
    11 January 2013 08: 30
    Should we make excuses to the Germans? Yes, to hell with both hands!
    because in Germany "Gustlof" is a symbol of trouble,

    And for my homeland, a symbol of trouble June 22, 1941.
    Millions of our civilians died at the hands of the German invaders.
    1. +34
      11 January 2013 10: 32
      Quote: omsbon
      And for my homeland, a symbol of trouble June 22, 1941.
      Millions of our civilians died at the hands of German invaders


      Marinesko-war criminal, he sank a ship with refugees. This is a purely "de-schizoid" version, which simply does not stand up to criticism. The same that bloody Stalin was to blame for the death of thousands of people in besieged Leningrad, who did not want to surrender the city to "syphilized" fascists.

      But the tragedy for the Germans is that they first democratically elected Hitler, and secondly attacked the USSR. There is such a bike. Russian tourists with their children settled in a hotel room in Turkey, the next day at 6 am a cry was made, the children yelled and jumped joyfully, their parents tried to calm them down.
      As a result, an elderly German couple behind the wall was awakened. They make the remark, "Mine Goth! How can you make noise at 6 in the morning. To which ours answer them .. And you generally shut up, you attacked us at four in the morning .. smile

      "Eh, Captain Marinesco died, he would have had fun." (a photo)
      1. Beck
        +5
        11 January 2013 11: 44
        The author of the article is objective. Did not go about the pseudo-praise.

        "Gustlof" transported, in the absolute majority, refugees. It is a fact... And there were no 3000 submariners on board the Gustlof. (This is a communist excuse). Since in January 45 Germany did not have 30 new submarines to equip them with crews. And it is a fact.

        Marinesco sank the Gustloff. This is also a fact.

        Like the immutable FACTthat Marinesco, before launching the torpedoes, should not and was not obliged to board the Gustloff to make sure of the ship's passenger contingent.

        He saw Marinesco, in the periscope, the enemy transport - destroyed. The law of war. Tragedy - Yes. But the war itself is an incomparable tragedy.
        1. +4
          11 January 2013 13: 11
          Baltic Fleet in 1941 - 1942 lost more than 30 submarines, which amounted to about 50% of the combat strength of ships of this class in the Baltic. By the beginning of 1943, the underwater forces of the Baltic Fleet were reduced to 21 submarines. Marinesko was the commander of the ONLY submarine of the "Baby" class, who survived from the beginning of the war.
          Since 1939, he served as the commander of the M-96. In the 40th submarine crew took first place according to the results of combat training: the diving standard of 35 seconds was almost doubled - 19,5 seconds. The commander was awarded a nominal gold watch and awarded the rank of captain-lieutenant. In November, the 42nd M-96 went to Narva Bay to land a reconnaissance group in an operation to seize the Enigma cryptographic machine. There was no encryption machine at the German headquarters, the landing party returned with nothing. Marinesco managed to secretly approach the shore and without loss returned the landing to the base. A. I. Marinesko was awarded the Order of Lenin. Marinesco became the commander of the submarine S-13 in April 43
          According to modern data, 406 sailors and officers of the 2nd training division of the submarine forces, 90 members of their own crew, 250 female soldiers of the German fleet and 4600 refugees and wounded, including almost 3 thousand children, died with Gustloff. The liner was flying the Kriegsmarin flag and did not carry the Red Cross identification marks.
          Of the number of submariners, 16 officers died (including 8 medical services), the rest were cadets, i.e. the dead submariners could form only 7-8 submarine crews (the crew of the most common German type VII submarine was 44-56 people) .
          1. The comment was deleted.
        2. -1
          11 January 2013 13: 39
          Quote: Beck
          He saw Marinesco, in the periscope, the enemy transport - destroyed.

          It’s just interesting, but if the transport were painted white and had red crosses on board?
          Your honest reaction
          About the fact that at night all cats of sulfur will not be mentioned!
          1. Beck
            +1
            11 January 2013 15: 16
            ZINNIK - It’s just interesting, but what if the transport were painted white and had red crosses on board?
            Your honest reaction

            If the transport had the emblem of the red cross, then personally I would not attack.
            1. +7
              11 January 2013 16: 56
              Quote: Beck
              ZINNIK - It’s just interesting, but what if the transport were painted white and had red crosses on board? Your honest reaction? If the transport had the emblem of the red cross, then personally I would not attack.


              Well so you zhezh real zhintylmen ... all with a sword, hat and cloak ..
              And I would have planted torpedoes even in a white Nazi parachute, and I would have helped him dive from a cannon if the latter had been without a convoy. Ask why? Yes, because the Germans started the naval war on the principle of the swamp of all. The Germans without special ceremonies drowned hospital ships without regret, and there are more than enough examples of this. So what is pop such is the coming.
              1. Beck
                +3
                11 January 2013 20: 29
                Quote: Sakhalininets
                And I would have planted torpedoes even in a white Nazi parachute, and even from a cannon


                Quote: Uncle
                And I would attack.


                Quote: Garrin
                Did they look at our "red crosses" a lot? And the villages and residents were burned alive?


                Guys. It was not these refugees from the "Gustlof" who started the war. These women were not bombing our cities. It was not these children who burned villages. And it is not proper for a man to purposefully kill civilians. We must kill soldiers, punishers, Gestapo men. If they are animals, then all the more you should not be like beasts.

                And I repeat. Marinesco saw the transport passport, without identification marks and destroyed. That's the way it should be. And the fact that there were refugees is a tragedy of war.
                1. SASCHAmIXEEW
                  +4
                  12 January 2013 11: 24
                  And not Marinescu! He performed his duty to destroy the enemy and did an excellent job, and who was on the ship with a military flag is the second question!
                2. +7
                  12 January 2013 13: 41
                  Not women, not children, but their husbands and fathers. Above there is a post about the sinking of the hospital steamer "Armenia" by the Germans on November 7.11.1941, 7000 - 8 people. XNUMX people survived. The steamer was sailing under the red cross. Glory to the Hero of Marinesco, who took revenge on the aggressors.
                3. +3
                  12 January 2013 15: 03
                  Beck (1) "And I repeat. Marinesco saw the transport without identification marks and destroyed it. So it should be. And the fact that there were refugees there is a tragedy of war."
                  -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------
                  --
                  Here I completely agree with you too! Then all the more it is not clear what this article is about and why ?! What, Marinesco was supposed to first "inspect" the transport, and only after that decide what to do with it ?! I will repeat once again - the article is PROVOCATIVE! The goal is to slander our next HERO!
                4. Misantrop
                  +1
                  27 February 2013 22: 24
                  Quote: Beck
                  It was not these refugees from "Gustlof" who started the war. These women were not bombing our cities. It was not these children who burned villages. And it is not proper for a man to purposefully kill civilians.
                  Yes, they didn’t bomb or shoot. They are only they forced to work with kicks the hungry and poorly fed SLAVES, brought and sent by their husbands from the vastness of "wild Russia". And they handed over to concentration camps those who could not work more. And they are not guilty of anything else ... request wink
              2. SASCHAmIXEEW
                +3
                12 January 2013 11: 14
                The first are not the first, fascists are at the bottom! What did they do with us? And after all, feel sorry for them. Why are you guys bleached overeat.! An eye for an eye! The only way and ALWAYS !!!! Otherwise, they will always creep on us, and without looking back and beat to the blood !!!!
                1. lechatormosis
                  +5
                  12 January 2013 11: 19
                  I agree, FASCISTS CAN NOT BE GOOD BY DEFINITION
                  After themselves they leave mountains of corpses.
              3. +4
                12 January 2013 14: 54
                Sakhalinets RU "And I would have planted torpedoes even in a white fascist ship .."
                -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------

                --------------------
                I would do the same, here I fully agree with you! But back to the article itself. What is it about? Here the author writes: "Whether we like it or not, we still cannot get around the question: what did Marinesco drown" ... Maybe this question does not allow the author to sleep, but personally he does not interest me at all! Marinesco did everything RIGHT and therefore he is a HERO! Moreover, in one military campaign he managed to sink TWO enemy vehicles at once! Why is this article? Apparently again, one goal is "discrediting" our next HERO, built on sentimentality and the desire to squeeze out a tear when describing the terrible scenes of drowning!
                Another quote from the article: "The fact is that the" Gustlof "left Gotenhafen without proper escort and ahead of schedule, without waiting for the escort ships,"
                But for me personally, this phrase raises the following question: where did they come from again from the article: "Nine ships participated in the rescue of its passengers."?
                In a word - complete nonsense! I see no reason to believe what is written here and not to believe that I had to read about it in other sources! And Marinesco is a HERO without any talk, especially since indeed of all the boats of this type that were available on the BF only he survived!
                In conclusion, I will give a link to my poem dedicated to Marinesco:
                http://stihi.ru/2009/06/26/3796
            2. +5
              11 January 2013 18: 42
              Quote: Beck
              If the transport had the emblem of the red cross, then personally I would not attack.

              And I would attack. It was 45 years old, everyone already knew about the atrocities of the Nazis, I would not care, even refugees, even women, even children. War is war.
            3. +6
              11 January 2013 19: 22
              Quote: Beck

              If the transport had the emblem of the red cross, then personally I would not attack.

              Did they look at our "red crosses" a lot? And the villages and residents were burned alive? Remember the movie "Torpedo bombers". "PUNISH!!!" I completely agree with the hero. And Marinesco, in general, is beyond praise.
          2. +2
            28 October 2013 20: 52
            Quote: Cynic
            It’s just interesting, but if the transport were painted white and had red crosses on board?
            Your honest reaction

            Do not quite understand. If everything was so and Marinesko drowned? Then.
            If you didn’t drown, then three times a hero. This is MY honest talk on your gmpotetic situation.
          3. +1
            28 October 2013 20: 56
            Quote: Cynic
            About the fact that at night all cats of sulfur will not be mentioned!

            And about the fact that the "cross" and "flag" should be highlighted at night, we will mention ...
            "The specified objects must have distinctive signs and special flags;"
            1. +1
              29 October 2013 11: 22
              Quote: svp67
              about the fact that the "cross" and "flag" should be highlighted at night, we will mention ...

              Recently, one topic from the past will pop up, then another.
              Over time, this article seems to me more voluminous, although naturally you are absolutely right in your statement.
              Increasingly, based on
              History winners write

              embraces the feeling _ And who actually won? The vanquished behave with such spontaneity that, at best, we should be embraced by a sense of inferiority for the Victory, or even a sense of shame!
              If the Soviet people were to be a full-fledged cultural one, then a more highly developed state would never have won!
              Our Victory is used as evidence of the inferiority of our people!
              And the main trouble is not even this, but that among us there are those who share these views!
        3. SASCHAmIXEEW
          +1
          12 January 2013 11: 08
          You are right in my opinion, only in the last sentence! Marinescu is a hero!
      2. +5
        11 January 2013 20: 05
        As a result, an elderly German couple behind the wall was awakened. They make a remark to them, "Mine Goth! How can you make noise at 6 in the morning. To which our answer them .. And you generally shut up, you attacked us at four in the morning ...; IRON ARGUMENT!
        1. SASCHAmIXEEW
          +3
          12 January 2013 11: 26
          If not a joke, then 10000000000000000 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++
  4. +27
    11 January 2013 08: 34
    The author of the article writes: “It was not without reason that the Consul General of Germany Ulrich Schoening, who recently visited the Museum of the Submarine Forces of Russia named after A.I. Marinesco, left the following entry in the book of honorary visitors:“ 60 years after the tragic events of World War II, the time has finally come when the Russians and the Germans building the future together. The death of the German liner "Wilhelm Gustloff" in January 1945 calls for this "....... In this regard, the question arises: what does the death of thousands of wounded soldiers and refugees on unarmed transports in 41, during the Tallinn passage call for? when did Luftwaffe cadets practice bombing skills?
    1. +16
      11 January 2013 09: 58
      But what is the cause of the death of thousands of wounded soldiers and refugees in unarmed vehicles in the 41st during the Tallinn crossing, when Luftwaffe cadets practiced bombing skills?

      dozens of hospital trains shot by German under the red cross, tens of thousands of refugees shot from the air on the roads, etc. the list goes on and on.
      1. +3
        11 January 2013 18: 49
        Quote: PSih2097
        dozens of hospital trains shot by German under the red cross,

        We answered them in the same way, crushed sanitary carts with tanks, and direct fire at the hospital. And few reptiles crushed, in general, fighting with Russians is more expensive. At the beginning of the war, Manstein complained about the treachery of the Russians, like pretending to be dead, and then shoots in the back. The Russians did not commit atrocities with the civilian population, did not hang out exponentially, and did not burn whole villages in sheds. And whoever fell under the hot hand, do not be offended, you are citizens of a hostile state.
    2. vyatom
      +17
      11 January 2013 12: 02
      We did not start this war. How can you spare the chances when they destroyed our vehicles with civilians in the 41st? When German submariners fired torpedoes at our women and children who boarded boats in the Barents Sea. When they tested the gas chambers on our prisoners of war. Laughing and laughing, they bombed our peaceful cities.
      They must remember the attack of Marinesco for centuries, so that even their thoughts would not arise to begin a treacherous war with us.
      1. SASCHAmIXEEW
        +2
        12 January 2013 11: 35
        and not treacherous! in general about the war with RUSSIA, let them remember only 45 years and that's it !!!
  5. +26
    11 January 2013 08: 34
    The hero, to carry out such an attack, attacked from the side of the coast where the depths are minimal, a vessel going as part of a military convoy. And then, as far as memory does not change there, Gustlov had the highest ranks of the SS, the managers of the "eastern territories" and the teams of XXII series submarines ...
    When German pilots bombed trains carrying red crosses on the roofs, or the hospital, they did it right, from the point of view of the West.
    There was a war and we did not start it. but in war as in war.
  6. +21
    11 January 2013 08: 36
    Does it make sense now to go into the moral value of the issue? The war was going on and the Soviet submarine attacked the enemy object, just as German submarines had mercilessly sunk the ships of their opponents (and not only the military) before. And there will probably be more victims on their part than on "Gustlava".
  7. Pinochet000
    +11
    11 January 2013 08: 56
    Why is such a question asked? Some kind of nonsense .... IMHO For what they fought for it and ran into fish food. The title of the article is annoying .... very much.
  8. Vasily79
    +33
    11 January 2013 08: 58
    I am amazed at the Russian soul when our children were raped by girls, mothers, they were alive, they burned this is the norm of war, and we are still silent and hiding under the guise of reconciliation yap at us and we are too lazy with a fucking boot ........ in the face. For Marinesco you need a muzzle on the asphalt. Tomorrow I was going to church; I would definitely order a prayer for the repose of the hero’s soul (this is not pathos, not rude)
    1. +1
      11 January 2013 18: 50
      Quote: Vasily79
      Tomorrow I was going to church; I would definitely order a prayer for the repose of the hero’s soul (this is not pathos, not rude)

      Pay attention - no one is rude, not everything is lost !!!
  9. +11
    11 January 2013 09: 17
    Another opus on the topic "was there a feat", got it already. The headline of the article is what a catchy and a hint of the main thing is immediately visible to the criminals, the main thing is to adjust the numbers of proportions and it is ready, the Soviet "super cruel perfidy" over the defeated fascists. The ending is also good - "He became a man-legend and will remain one ..." a pretentious ellipsis, another hint at the revision of not only the feat of Marinesco, but also the results of the Second World War.
  10. +10
    11 January 2013 09: 33
    Or maybe stop trying to find shit in the actions of our ancestors. Sprinkle his head with ashes. I doubt that in the West they are just as conscientiously tormented, regarding their own. My opinion is Marinesco-hero and period. And at least do not dawn there.
  11. demon ada
    +6
    11 January 2013 09: 43
    definitely a hero.
    who is against that enemy.
    Well, something like this.
    1. SASCHAmIXEEW
      +1
      12 January 2013 11: 42
      not something like that, but unequivocally all sorts of equivocations will suffice, who is not against us! And don't bother with us with your charter!
  12. oper66
    +17
    11 January 2013 09: 50
    Yes, everything in this world is understood, you can cheat, a pigeon like a bird of the world nevermind who or what to shit !!!! Much has already been taken up by the wave of revisionists of history and A. Matrosov and the Young Guards from Kosmodemyanskaya. Films are shot about the good fascists and the disgusting Russian rapists and executioners of the good peaceful burgher and other fascist who killed our grandfathers and grandmothers who sought to destroy our entire people by making them a wordless slave below the level of cattle. Come on now and go around the DOVES OF THE WORLD and also Marinescu. I am annoyed by the phrase PEACEFUL RESIDENT - what kind of concept is this or are they not citizens of the country of the aggressor receiving benefits from the war or not their relatives and family members who killed our people or these civilians of Germany were embarrassed to scoff at women and children hijacked to work in Germany ???? ?? So whom do we regret and whom they want to nail to the pillory. The phrase civilians reminds me of Chechnya where there were peaceful people who shot at us and the fire was forbidden to open towards the village or not, the sons of these peaceful brothers raped and took away property from the Russian-speaking population of ACHISSR or didn’t they put landmines on the roads ????? Or how did people not take part in the war in Georgia ????? NO CAN NOT BE PEACEFUL CITIZENS CAN NOT BECAUSE these peaceful while the time is sent to the murder of their citizens support them and the moral and material tends to get GOOD DUE defeated and is a party to WAR TO THE FULLEST EXTENT AND MUST ALSO BE LIABLE par with his army, OR THE GANG IS SO AS THEY ARE THEIR PART AND THEREFORE I SPEAK OFF YOUR HANDS FROM THE MARINESC BAGS AND AWAY FROM YOUR DIRTY FEEDS OF INTELLIGENCE AND INTENTION FROM HEROES-PROTECTORS OF OUR FAMILY AND PEOPLE. and IF YOU DO NOT LIKE OUR COUNTRY AND PEOPLE - RIDE ON ALL THE FOUR PARTIES OF PEOPLE OF THE WORLD AND THE DOVE !!!!!
    1. SASCHAmIXEEW
      0
      12 January 2013 11: 44
      ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
      ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
      !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
      !!!!!!!!!!
  13. Beltar
    +16
    11 January 2013 09: 51
    Enough to write crap already, the debriefing has long been made in court, the vessel went without any sign that it was not comme il faut to drown it. Therefore, the fra is quite legal. The Germans did not hesitate to sink hospital ships and kill the civilian population, and on May 9 every German should go to the memory of a Soviet soldier and kneel before him because his Germany now exists at all. And what is one liner in front of 50-80% of cities destroyed by allied aviation?

    And the fact that the attack took place in near-polygon conditions, but Marinesco himself did things on the shore, has nothing to do with the matter. The war in general is such a thing that it loves the lucky and often one of many, far from the best fighters, in one single battle manages to take a bunch of frags, or one, but epic.
  14. +18
    11 January 2013 09: 52
    Alexander Ivanovich was a real soldier! He knew how to fight and walk like a real man. He respected subordinates and had the courage to send staff dishwashers, for which he was certainly not represented and dismissed.
    And those "peacekeepers" and "right and left defenders" could be driven into the trenches of the Great Patriotic War under bullets and explosives, or into compartments under depth charges, to show them the atrocities on our territory or in besieged Leningrad, I would see how much "courage" they have accumulated in the pants.
  15. +6
    11 January 2013 10: 08
    War is war, let the Germans do not forget how many civilians have killed us talking about their refugees, anyone on the spot would have done the same thing at that time, all the blame for this should lie only on the Nazis
  16. 0
    11 January 2013 10: 08
    By the way, remembering this story there is such a version
    That Stalin was very angry to learn that Marinescu drowned the submariners.
    After all, he understood that after Germany, which was already close to collapse, it would be necessary to fight with a high degree of probability with small-shavens and amerkashki. And the new German submarines XVII XXIII XXII would have drunk a lot of blood for the Omerikanegam and naglosaksam
    1. SASCHAmIXEEW
      +1
      12 January 2013 11: 53
      Leon, these submariners would have fought on the side of the Anglo-Saxons, that is, Stalin and us were unlikely to be happy about this!
    2. The comment was deleted.
  17. Fox
    +4
    11 January 2013 10: 11
    you can add about the female battalions of support, that is, prostitutes who worked of their own accord in the army and navy of Germany ... and the article is bold - another liberal lettering, pouring mud on the Hero. complexes, author?
    1. -11
      11 January 2013 10: 38
      Did he water someone with mud, just set out information on this case, without blaming anyone
      1. +5
        11 January 2013 20: 14
        This almost professional article of the provocateur has one goal - to sow doubts in young people about the role of the USSR in this war. "And his feat can be interpreted in different ways ..."
        This is a war, this is an attack by an enemy target.
        ? The next question will be- Maybe the USSR attacked Germany?
        ? Who ordered this article?
      2. +3
        29 October 2013 14: 13
        Quote: Slevinst
        Did he water someone with mud, just set out information on this case, without blaming anyone

        This is the most sophisticated way to cheat a person.
        Firstly, you can find the negative side in almost any act.
        Secondly, if these moments are absent, then it is possible to create the appearance of their presence, focusing attention on one and keeping silent about the other.
        Thirdly, the old polemical method: first, there is an unfounded accusation, and then an "objective" analysis of this accusation begins, involving the most varied verbiage.
        And, finally, fourthly, start shouting: in spite of ANYTHING, he is ANYTHING hero (with such accentualization). After that, somewhere in the depths of one’s soul a fetid ball of conviction begins to rise that OUR heroes are invented heroes, not real and to be proud of them is a shameful thing.

        As for the specific sinking of ships in submarine warfare: from the very beginning of the appearance of submarines, the problem of observing the rules of naval warfare has become generally unsolvable (it was already not always solvable before that). And if you add that the same Angles left and right violated all the written and unwritten canons, then there is nothing to talk about at all. Marinesco attacked military transports and the point. Filling these ships is the concern of the port commandant and the convoy commander. The wounded and the children are loaded onto military vehicles — their problem and their responsibility, which set their compatriots up under the torpedoes and bombs of the enemy, they must answer and make excuses for their deaths. In the end, no one is blaming for the encirclement and captivity of our fighters in the boilers of 1941, neither Guderian, nor Leeb, nor Bok, nor Kleist ...
  18. 8 company
    +15
    11 January 2013 10: 52
    How much can this garbage be placed? Someone pity the Germans who died from the bombing, then torpedoes. Nonsense.
    1. psdf
      +2
      12 January 2013 22: 48
      By the way, but shouldn't the moderators take this position into account?
      It seems to me that rarely what source in the West allows so openly pouring mud on their Heroes. The author in 99% of cases simply will not be published.
      Let's not let mud in our country of Heroes, even if we stop publishing these shameful, provocative articles.
  19. 0
    11 January 2013 11: 05
    And at school they said that the name Marinescu because father was Moldovan and not Ukrainian
    1. +2
      29 October 2013 14: 17
      Quote: Bruevich
      And at school they said that the name Marinescu because father was Moldovan and not Ukrainian

      Absolutely correct, but after he settled in Odessa, he wrote down the name of his son in Ukrainian.
  20. +10
    11 January 2013 11: 11
    Here stopudovo agree with Basil. This is war. The Nazis themselves did not really understand whom they drowned. And there was no time and opportunity to separate flies from cutlets. Enemy vehicles are sunk - the road is there. An article is a fat minus. Write better about the hundreds of our burned villages, raped women, murdered children and the elderly tortured in concentration camps, burned in furnace furnaces, human skin lampshades, millions of war-disfigured lives.
    Or did we attack fascist Germany?
    Do not put the above case on a par with the bombing of Cologne, Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
    Marinesco is definitely a Hero in that situation.
  21. The comment was deleted.
    1. 0
      11 January 2013 11: 50
      [media=<iframe%20width="960"%20height="720"%20src="h
      ttp://www.youtube.com/embed/QlAHU0Kk0vw"%20frameborder="0"%20allo
      wfullscreen> ]
    2. 0
      11 January 2013 11: 52
      [media = http: //youtu.be/QlAHU0Kk0vw]
    3. 0
      11 January 2013 11: 54
      [media=http://<iframe%20width="960"%20height="720"%20src=
      "http://www.youtube.com/embed/QlAHU0Kk0vw"%20frameborder="0"
      % 20allowfullscreen> ]
    4. +2
      11 January 2013 18: 55
      Quote: Asgard
      carved under Young

      Young, not Young. I live there, and by the way, it was there in the Temple that I heard about the Battle of Molody, which is the number of soldiers like Kulikovskaya.
    5. SASCHAmIXEEW
      +2
      12 January 2013 11: 57
      Asgard is 100% in agreement with you. I look forward to the distant future! And I think I'm not alone ..
  22. zambo
    +9
    11 January 2013 11: 36
    In war, as in war ... Glory to the heroes of Russia! Death to the enemies of Russia!
  23. patriot2
    +8
    11 January 2013 11: 44
    You need to talk about heroes like Marinesco in history lessons!
    Eternal memory to the Hero!
  24. AK-47
    +8
    11 January 2013 11: 47
    His legendary personality is destined for immortality. He became a human legend and will remain her..

    Monologue Marinesco
    I remember the day - I command: “For battle!”
    The crew in the compartments: "Ready!"
    At the periscope - a chain of convoys
    And water flows from the sides.
    Blond, impudent beasts,
    Be affirmed now:
    "God with us!"
    Holy Retribution is done
    A fair summary has been made.
    You don’t trade a second at Eternity -
    This is waiting for every Fuhrer,
    Who transgresses the Law of Man
    Who will encroach on the Russian Honor!
    The commander’s share is not mundane,
    A feat in her and suma, and prison.
    The Spanish coast is not for us,
    We are closer to the Kolyma River.
    There will be a day - I will command: “For battle!”
    Diesel will roar to the limit ...
    You can die us out of history,
    But you can’t quarrel with Russia.

    Monument to Marinesco in Kaliningrad.
  25. +4
    11 January 2013 12: 28
    Climbing upstairs, people were constantly shouting and pushing, those who fell were doomed, they were trampled to death. No one could help the helpless - pregnant women and wounded soldiers. Crowds of people stormed lifeboats, and there was no question of fulfilling the famous commandment “Women and children are the first!”. Nobody obeyed anyone; those who were physically stronger took the upper hand.


    Fascists they are fascists, what principles and commandments are there ...
  26. Misantrop
    +16
    11 January 2013 12: 48
    Let's look one more time at the numbers saved from Gustlov, by German same data. If the Democrats believe that Marinescu should have felt sorry for the refugees, then why didn’t they spare their own military in a fight for saving means? A combat trip is not a Christmas walk. No one calls (that's strange, why?) To condemn German pilots and sailors who drowned civil ships of the USSR during the evacuation of residents of Sevastopol. But our ready to pour mud for any reason
    1. +5
      12 January 2013 20: 01
      the figures of those who survived (according to German data) indicate that mainly those who had weapons with them ... sailors and other military personnel were able to escape ... What does this mean? And this suggests that the military, there on Gustlov killed their civilians and were able to get out of the ship ... Again, not a word about this "humanity" either in the article or in the west, respectively ... I consider the author of the article to be a DIRECT ENEMY of Russia and Russian people. He is even worse than the enemy - it seems that he is not an enemy, but sings songs to the accompaniment of the enemy's direction ... He fulfills the order of the West to destroy their heroes from the memory of Russians. Look over the past decades, which of the Russian defenders of the country at all times remained in Russian propaganda, I apologize not to both ... So I still don’t remember ... Maybe someone will remind you ... And Stalin and Zhukov and Brezhnev and even Matrosov - all are spoiled .... Eh Russian (?) People Well you allow your internal enemies to destroy you morally, but time will come and physically ...
  27. +7
    11 January 2013 13: 01
    This is called PAYMENT
  28. Dawd
    +1
    11 January 2013 13: 02
    All the same, it’s not our way somehow, only a democratic west can kill, we are in an honest and equal battle!
    1. +5
      12 January 2013 20: 11
      Well, it was a fair and equal battle, what's the problem? Nine (!) Military escort ships against one (!) Submarine! Where are the advantages or dishonesty of the battle? Do not weave nonsense to the German tune ... Having fooled another real hero of Russia for the sake of a momentary alleged benefit, you turn into "Ivanov who do not remember" ... and these are the first steps towards the disappearance of the people ...
  29. davoks
    0
    11 January 2013 13: 20
    anyone interested - http://rutracker.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3735989 wink
  30. +8
    11 January 2013 13: 39
    Something from the title of the article pulls rotten goat. Revision of the outcome of the war is unacceptable. And all who want to do this should be .... condemn. Marinesco is a professional and a hero. At that time, the Germans deserved this fate in full, that's all.
  31. +10
    11 January 2013 14: 09
    Currently in Russia there Museum of the Russian submarine forces. A. I. Marinesco(currently the only submarine museum in Russia.) Created in 1997 by order of the governor of St. Petersburg
    Located on the ground floor of a residential building at 83 Kondratyevsky Prospekt. The permanent exhibition is located in two rooms and in an open area near the museum. The museum funds contain about 17000 exhibits.
  32. davoks
    +2
    11 January 2013 14: 38
    The death of Laconia still remember. a similar case is a civilian ship, but with weapons and soldiers on board
  33. +11
    11 January 2013 14: 58
    A.I. Marinesko was an officer in the Navy of the USSR, and attacked a ship not with a red cross. Well done !!!! Eternal glory and memory to him !!!!!
  34. +5
    11 January 2013 16: 22
    Remember 1942 and the steamer "Lenin", which was also sunk, only 5 or 7 people were saved near the Crimea. The place of his death was found not long ago by diving enthusiasts. It was a violent war where the stake was the existence of slavs on earth soldier and we broke the ridge of these lovers to test us for strength. Now the Germans, like the Swedes, took up peaceful work and did not succeed in this weakly. angry
  35. PistonizaToR
    +2
    11 January 2013 16: 33
    vyatom,
    There’s nothing to add. Yes, and in general, such articles are enraged. Anyone want to get across. Better than a dozen photos from Auschwitz would have been posted so that they remembered what the brown infection did.


    .
  36. -27
    11 January 2013 16: 37
    Marinescu asshole semi-Romanian, a drunkard and a thief. Like him, cancer cells destroy a large, living organism. Only thanks to the liberals made an icon out of it. Sorry he did not have time to arrest in Finland. am
    1. SASCHAmIXEEW
      +3
      12 January 2013 12: 09
      wise guy 1970 you are the same, wacky as everyone, those who came to us with a sword and ran away with cots in full! You are only here to spray powerless saliva! Take away the ghoul !!
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. +1
          12 January 2013 16: 50
          Quote: ymNIK1970
          Great reaction!

          The most evil breed of enemies is those who praise. Tacitus.
    2. +2
      12 January 2013 16: 53
      ymNIK1970Do you dream of turtles on uniform?
      I think at such a pace you will soon be added to epaulettes.
  37. +7
    11 January 2013 16: 41
    All writers forget one simple thing - had Hitler not attacked the USSR and there would have been no attack of the century. And so get and sign!
    And Marinesco - eternal memory, honor and respect!
    If we all did our duty like him.
  38. +15
    11 January 2013 17: 14
    - When I hear talk about my luck, they don't make me angry, but make me laugh. I am not Suvorov, although I could also answer in Suvorov: if you are lucky, two are lucky, put something on the skill ... But when a whisper comes to me: is it not barbarism to sneak up on defenseless merchant ships and send them to the bottom? - This whisper insults me to the core. And they say this: whether it’s the proud falcons, our pilots, there is an honest duel, the strongest wins ... I respect the pilots, and in one respect I even envy them - they fight in front of the whole nation, any boy understands what air combat is. True, one shouldn't delude oneself about the "fair fight" either: if three of them happen to attack one, they will attack for a sweet soul ... For some reason, it is often forgotten that the main striking force of the air fleet is not fighters, but attack aircraft and bombers, and that, compared to a torpedo, an ordinary air bomb is a weapon much more dangerous for civilians. In wartime, the sea is not a place for walking, but a theater of operations. Every ship that goes to sea performs a military task, even if this ship is not military, but only paramilitary. Every person stepping on the deck of such a ship understands that he can become an object of attack - both from the air and from the depths of the sea. What unarmed adversary can we talk about? Before reaching the enemy, the submarine is hourly exposed to mortal danger from mines, nets, boats - submarine hunters, aircraft, coastal artillery ... Outlining a target for an attack, the commander knows for sure: the larger and larger the target, the stronger it will be protected by a convoy of warships. There is one defense against them - stealth, maneuver. I know what losses our aviation suffered during the war, but the losses of submariners are no less, remember that of all the "escorts" in the Baltic, only one survived to the Victory - our "thirteenth". And about the fact that people who are not involved in the war are killed in vehicles ... much less than when shelling or bombing cities. During the war, ships do not carry passengers, departing from the pier, they solve a specific military-strategic problem - to deliver troops, weapons, ammunition, raw materials for the military industry. Anyone who stepped onto the deck of such a vessel knows what he is going for. A real sailor understands this and will never talk about defenselessness. After the mobilization, in the forty-sixth, I sailed as assistant captain on a dry cargo transport vessel. Monotonous flights: Leningrad - Szczecin and vice versa. The cargoes were different, but coal was always taken by the return flight, captured Germans loaded coal, then there were many of them in Poland. I watched the loading myself. He went in a working tunic, but with the Order of Lenin. Before dinner, the boatswain came up to me and showed me one of the loaders - as if this German knew me and wanted to talk. It seemed strange to me - I know German acquaintances, I never had one. But the boatswain reiterates his point: I met, said, with Marinesco and I want to say two words to him. Okay, I say, invite him to my cabin. A man of medium height, a blond man, came up to me, his face was weathered. He stretched out in a military fashion, snapped his heels. Introduced: Chief Lieutenant such and such. "Is it true that you are Marinesco?" - "Yes," I say, "Marinesco." - "The same" Gustlov "kaput?" - "There was a case" - I say. "May I shake your hand?" We talked. It turned out that this German was a lieutenant, a submariner. He has never been a fascist. He served in a training submarine detachment in Pillau, was supposed to go with his squadron on "Gustlov", but in the last minutes before sailing he was ordered to transfer to the destroyer accompanying "Gustlov": the navigator fell ill there.
    1. SASCHAmIXEEW
      0
      12 January 2013 12: 17
      This is a worthy response to the article !! in war there are inhabitants of the warring countries!
    2. +3
      29 October 2013 14: 31
      Georges Bravo good ! You can’t say better. And this lieutenant is more honest than all those who try to cover up their own abominations with war and try to pass white over black. He knew perfectly well that in war, enemies confront each other, but after the war two HONEST soldiers can shake hands, even if they used to look at each other through the scope.

      And honesty is defined simply: never do lawlessness and violence, if you yourself know for sure that this is lawlessness and violence.

      Glory to the Soviet sailors!
  39. +11
    11 January 2013 17: 31
    After reading the article somewhere in the depths of consciousness there is a feeling that in us gradually, slowly, for the umpteenth time and for various reasons, they are trying to instill guilt for our victories in the Great Patriotic War!
    ... Ah, what unfortunate Germans suffered from the Russian barbarian Marinesco ...! Have pity on them and repent ...!

    Yes, I personally feel sorry for the civilians, children and women who, by the will of fate, ended up on "Gustlov", but head the ashes let the Germans sprinkle themselveswho started that war or indulged it!
    War is cruel in its essence, and sometimes does not understand where the civilian population is, and where is the military enemy. This is especially felt at sea! "Gustlov" walked with a blackout, without signs of the Red Cross, with weapons on board. Who could, in that situation, determine who and what was on board?
    Marinesco did as the oath demanded, a sense of duty and charters - he attacked the enemy, and did it skillfully! And neither he nor his crew, and even more so, we modern Russian people, should not feel any guilt. Let the Germans repent of their crimes, but Marinesco paid them for these crimes!
    1. +2
      11 January 2013 19: 06
      Quote: vadimN
      ..Ah, what unfortunate Germans suffered from the Russian barbarian Marinesco ...! Have pity on them and repent ...!

      They won’t wait, it will be necessary - we’ll break it down.
      Quote: vadimN
      "Gustlov" walked with blackout, without Red Cross insignia, with weapons on board.

      And even if with a cross and without a weapon. Russians and Germans have a special account. If the Germans and the British were catching downed pilots from the sea, they treated humanely, realizing that their compatriot would be shot down and caught tomorrow. Not with us! Barbaross’s plan was not canceled, and it was implemented. So drown everything that floats.
    2. +3
      11 January 2013 19: 37
      Quote: vadimN


      After reading the article somewhere in the depths of consciousness, there is a feeling that we are gradually, quietly, for the umpteenth time, for various reasons, trying to instill a sense of guilt for our victories in the Great Patriotic War!

      Yes, this is DAM, eccentric letter Мled such a policy. For all I wanted to be good - a bastard selling.
    3. SASCHAmIXEEW
      +2
      12 January 2013 12: 36
      When the parcels from the front, from Ukraine ate it was delicious, but now another parcel and it immediately became bad, "you love to ride, love to carry sledges!"
  40. +8
    11 January 2013 17: 59
    The author should remember that as a result of the German attack on the USSR, more than 15 million civilians of the USSR died, there is no family in which someone did not die during the war. There is nothing to dissolve the nurse for the killed Germans, they did not spare us. A.I. Marinesko was, is and will be for us a hero, eternal memory to him !!!!
  41. +5
    11 January 2013 18: 24
    How many of our CIVIL SHIPS WITH RED CROSSES ON THE DECK AND ON THE BOARDS were sunk by the Germans in 1941-42, at least on the Black Sea during the defense of Odessa and Sevastopol ??? !!! As the saying goes: "what we fought for, we ran into it!" There would not have been June 22, 1941, there would have been no January 30, 1945, and May 9, 1945, too! So let the Germans keep quiet in a rag! There were no peaceful markings on "Gustlov"! The Germans admit this too. But to shoot ships with "Red Crosses" on the sides and decks is a war crime.
    1. +3
      29 October 2013 14: 36
      Quote: nnz226
      How many of our CIVIL COURTS WITH RED CROSSES ON THE DECK AND ON BOARD

      And something is not visible to the crowd repenting for it. As not even one of their historians is visible who would ask questions: what feat did Otto Kretschmer perform?

      Something is wrong with the brains of our people ...
  42. cool.ya-nikola
    +3
    11 January 2013 18: 24
    Quote: Dimani
    And it would be naive to believe that if instead of Marinesco there was English aviation, they would not attack ... even as if they began ...

    And, they were not particularly shy!
    ... during the famous bombing of Dresden, when 250 thousand inhabitants were killed,

    So, then the same, they, "great humanists, liberals and democrats"! They can do anything, up to the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki! And few people remember that Hiroshima was chosen due to the fact that by that time Tokyo was almost completely burned down, and it was impossible to test the effectiveness of nuclear weapons on it. And, so, how many people died there ... According to some reports, the number of those killed in Tokyo is not inferior to the number of those killed in Hiroshima. And now the American ambassador to Estonia is hypocritically shedding crocodile tears over the "barbaric" Soviet bombing of Tallinn in 1944!
    And all this guys is called "information war"!
    I strongly advise you to read today's article on the VO website: "Russia in information wars"
    Quote:
    I must say that the information pressure on Russia, namely as Russia (not just as an Orthodox country, but as Russia) began in the 1820s after the end of the Napoleonic Wars. The British understood very well that their main adversary on the continent was Russia.

    Concerning the article, it’s better than what is said, perhaps!
    Quote: vadimN
    Let the Germans repent of their crimes, but Marinesco paid them for these crimes!
    1. mamba
      +3
      12 January 2013 00: 28
      Quote: cool.ya-nikola
      Hiroshima was chosen due to the fact that by that time Tokyo was almost completely burned, and it was impossible to verify the effectiveness of nuclear weapons on it.

      Hiroshima and Nagasaki were selected as targets for the atomic bombings long before the burning of Tokyo. Therefore, they were not bombed at all, including in order to "test the effectiveness of nuclear weapons." These were "control" targets.
      1. +1
        12 January 2013 20: 01
        > Hiroshima and Nagasaki were selected as targets for the atomic bombings long before the burning of Tokyo. Therefore, they were not bombed at all, including in order to "test the effectiveness of nuclear weapons." These were "control" targets.
        http://rocketpolk44.narod.ru/yas/a-bomb.htm
      2. +2
        12 January 2013 20: 35
        You wrote nonsense ... and asked Nagasaki for bombing almost a few days before ... And Nagasaki was bombed because of the weather instead of Kyoto ... Instead of being bombed by the p. these cities simply because there was NO military infrastructure at all ...
        1. mamba
          +1
          12 January 2013 21: 18
          Thank you Cosmos-1869 for an interesting link and put a plus. I read it with interest. hi
          I admit my mistake I think so and thank you for your comment. You are also a plus. hi
        2. +2
          12 January 2013 22: 45
          Quote: I think so
          You wrote nonsense ...

          For your information
          On May 10, a committee on the selection of targets for the atomic bombing met. On the recommendation of the committee, the Air Force leadership ordered four Japanese cities — Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Niigata, Kokura — to be excluded from the bombing schedule.

          This is from here http://rocketpolk44.narod.ru/yas/a-bomb.htm
          For thoughtfully studying the official documents of a potential enemy, the dumping of two nuclear bombs was not made for the Emperor of Japan, it was a sign to Uncle Joe that the world had changed again.
          Yes, there were three bombs, where is the third? I don’t believe in the philanthropy of the Yusovites!
          wink
          1. mamba
            0
            13 January 2013 00: 37
            Colleague I think sowithout quoting my post to the end, he allowed the ambiguity of the interpretation of his post already.
            I realized that he was arguing with me about what happened before, the burning of Tokyo or the choice of targets for atomic bombing. recourse And here I agreed with him.
            And you probably argue with him about when the decision was made on atomic bombings: May 10 or a few days before August 6.
            As for the third bomb, it was tested on July 16 in the state of New Mexico in the Death Valley. It was a Trinity with a plutonium-239 charge. soldier
            1. 0
              13 January 2013 17: 19
              Quote: mamba
              As for the third bomb, it was tested

              As an assumption.
              The starting position of the bombs is two, goals then? One main, the second spare and get three at a minimum. Well, the fourth, the stock pocket does not pull. Only three bombs are drawn more, four goals! Modestly and tastefully!
              Further ideas about the third dime a dozen, from voiced / official: What are you? There were two of them! Until it fell, it didn’t explode and (!) Then the Russians stole it!
              Few people strongly emphasize that one of the ships of the US Navy participating in the transportation of atomic bombs was sunk almost immediately after the completion of the mission! A little earlier and ... Accident? Or the project was not only in the USSR, but also in Japan! Or ours leaked Old?
              1. +3
                29 October 2013 14: 50
                Quote: Cynic
                As an assumption.
                The starting position of the bombs is two, goals then? One main, the second spare and get three at a minimum. Well, the fourth, the stock pocket does not pull. Only three bombs are drawn more, four goals! Modestly and tastefully!

                No, there were only two bombs for combat use. They tested several parameters at once: the method of creating a knitic mass (volume crimping by explosion or the combination of two parts of a critical mass), the type of fissile material (uranium-235 or plutonium-239), the height of the detonation of the ammunition, and some other points.
                As for the choice of goals, I heard that initially there were more of them (it seems that even eight, but I will not insist, I do not remember the source). This stock can be fully explained by purely technical problems, the most important of which was that the B-29 often experienced problems with normal take-off and emergency landing with SUCH ammunition on board. In short, they simply feared that a unique bomb might explode during an emergency during take-off (this happened several times during training flights with simulated flight). Then they decided to start with an unpowered bomb, and bring them into a combat situation immediately before reaching the target. Also not ideal, but still something. So it turns out that if it was impossible to bomb the intended target No. 1, it would be nice to have a couple located nearby, because few people were happy with returning home with a bomb ready for explosion.
                I do not insist on the correctness of my version, but this is not the fruit of my personal conclusions.
                1. 0
                  29 October 2013 18: 40
                  Quote: Alex
                  I do not insist on the correctness of my version, but this is not the fruit of my personal conclusions.

                  For this, a site has been created for the exchange of views / versions.
                  It’s a pity that we will never know the truth; as always, they will declassify something corresponding to the moment in time.
                  drinks
          2. Beck
            +1
            13 January 2013 20: 10
            Quote: Cynic
            the drop of two nuclear bombs was not made for the emperor of Japan, it was a sign to Uncle Joe that the world had changed again.


            You also wrote a frivolous thing.

            After the capture of Okinawa, and after the end of the war in Europe, Japan was offered to surrender. The Japanese government refused, claiming that on the islands of the metropolis, Japan would fight to the last soldier.

            The General Staff of the US Army began to prepare plans for invading the islands, given the fanaticism and combat qualities of the enemy. According to these plans, it turned out that the war could drag on by 1-1,5. The losses of the American army can reach up to 1 million soldiers, the Japanese army up to 3 million, plus 2-3 million civilians in Japan. By this time, atomic bombs were made and reported to the American government.

            The US government had a choice - Continue the war by conventional means, prolonging the war by 1-1,5 and killing a total of 6-7 million people or Demonstrate new weapons while destroying 200 thousand Japanese and get immediate surrender of Japan. The US government has chosen the second option.

            One more circumstance was applied here. Nuclear weapons sooner or later, but would be made public. And then the mothers and relatives of those million American soldiers who died during the occupation of Japan by conventional means would ask the government a question. - How so. You had the most powerful weapons, and you dragged on the war for 1,5 years. You had the most powerful weapon, and you sent 1 million American guys to death.

            Personally, I would not protest if in November 1941, when the German Aoysk were near Moscow, the Soviet aircraft would deliver two nuclear strikes on some German cities. Then Germany would capitulate in December 1945, and not in May 1945. And there would be no 50 million victims in Europe.
            1. Beck
              0
              13 January 2013 20: 30
              I made a little mistake. Read - Germany would capitulate in December 1941, and not in December 1945.
            2. 0
              13 January 2013 20: 50
              Quote: Beck
              The General Staff of the US Army began to prepare plans for invading the islands, given the fanaticism and combat qualities of the enemy. According to these plans, it turned out that the war could drag on by 1-1,5. The losses of the American army can reach up to 1 million soldiers, the Japanese army up to 3 million, plus 2-3 million civilians in Japan. By this time, atomic bombs were made and reported to the American government.

              You all believe in the humanity of the Yusovites.
              By the way, you brought the most optimistic forecast for the war and somehow forgot about the Kwantung Army.
              Pink glasses add a good mood, but do not contribute to health.
              wink
              1. Beck
                0
                13 January 2013 22: 00
                Quote: Cynic
                You all believe in the humanity of the Yusovites.


                What you twitch the meaning of which was not. First of all, the US government felt sorry for its soldiers.

                Quote: Cynic
                By the way, you brought the most optimistic forecast for the war and somehow forgot about the Kwantung Army


                What does the Kwantung army have to do with it. After the bombing of Hiroshima on August 6, the USSR declared a war on August 9, 1945 in violation of the neutrality treaty with Japan. (From a legal point of view, this is bad, but justified). The Neutrality Pact was valid until April 25, 1946, and automatically extended until 1951. On August 9th, a bomb was dropped on Nagasaki. On August 14, Japan accepted all conditions of surrender. On August 17, the commander of the Kwantung Army, General Yamada, ordered the army to cease hostilities and surrender weapons.

                So, in fact, there was no rout as such. Since August 17, the mass surrender of Japanese soldiers.
                1. 0
                  13 January 2013 22: 37
                  Quote: Beck
                  So, in fact, there was no rout as such. Since August 17, the mass surrender of Japanese soldiers.

                  And at the same time, the irretrievable losses of the Soviet troops amounted to 12031 people, sanitary 24425 people.

                  Especially liked
                  Quote: Beck
                  Quote: Cynic
                  You all believe in the humanity of the Yusovites.

                  What you pull the meaning of which was not.
                  1. Beck
                    -1
                    14 January 2013 09: 28
                    Quote: Cynic
                    And at the same time, the irretrievable losses of the Soviet troops amounted to 12031 people, sanitary 24425 people.


                    So after all, the Kwantung army fought for 8 days, from August 9 to 17. And then she just gave up. It is impossible to defeat an army of 1 million 200 thousand people (along with the co-creators) with losses of 12 thousand soldiers, if the millionth army fiercely resists.


                    Quote: Cynic
                    I especially liked Quote: Beck Quote: CynicYou all believe in the philanthropy of the Yusovites. What are you twitching the meaning of which was not there.


                    It’s like I’m not there and not here your taste predispositions. The question was about the atomic bombing. I answered as best I could. And you are not out of the blue about the humanity of Amers. I did not mention this. I made it clear that the United States did not want victory at all costs of human casualties, especially at the cost of its soldiers. And you tell me about humanity. Here the banal military calculation of the existing millennium is Victory with the most possible the smallest losses.
                    1. +2
                      29 October 2013 15: 24
                      All these songs about the frugality of their soldiers are just a later justification for all the same barbarism. If you want to intimidate the enemy, bomb STRATEGICALLY and POLITICALLY IMPORTANT OBJECTS, and not peaceful, specially chosen cities for slaughter, in one of which there was a camp for captive AMERICAN SOLDIERS, whose lives the American government allegedly worried about.

                      But this tale about the purely military significance of atomic bombings has become so firmly entrenched in many poorly developed brains that almost half of the grief "historians" with foam at the mouth (and other secretions from other organs) will prove that this particular barbarism was the reason for the surrender of Japan. But at the same time, even fish will be bypassed in the duration of silence, when the question is asked why the Americans with such humiliating insistence asked the USSR to enter the war with Japan? Did you also take care of the soldiers? Or was there a small intestine even with an atomic bomb?
            3. +2
              29 October 2013 15: 03
              Quote: Beck
              Demonstrate new weapons while killing 200 thousands of Japanese people and get an immediate surrender of Japan.

              Beck, you are always a finger to the sky. Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombed 6 and 9 on August; the surrender was signed by Japan only on 2 of September. And before that, from 9 to 19 on August, Soviet troops defeated the millionth Kwantung army - the only REALLY combat-ready reserve that the Japanese command could use against the Japanese (which explained their warlike rhetoric), even at the cost of losing China. And this despite the fact that the Japanese were confident in observing the USSR’s neutrality (by and large, the USSR did not have any reasons for its violation).
              To continue the war under such conditions simply meant a guaranteed suicide, and only AFTER THIS Japan began to bargain for surrender.
              No thoughts come up?
              1. Beck
                0
                29 October 2013 20: 42
                Quote: Alex
                Beck, you are always a finger to the sky.


                And you, as always, with your finger in ..., excuse me, but this is the answer to your illiterate shamelessness.

                Quote: Alex
                Hiroshima and Nagasaki were bombed on August 6 and 9, the surrender was signed by Japan only on September 2. And before that, from August 9 to 19, Soviet troops defeated the millionth Kwantung army


                After the bombing of Hiroshima, the Japanese government sent a special commission to the ruined city. The commission reported a disaster. The government was slow. After the bombing of Nagasaki on August 9, August 10, the Japanese government accepted all the Postdam conditions of surrender, except for the preservation of imperial power, the United States rejected this. On August 14, Japan accepted all conditions and On August 15, 1945, the entire imperial army was ordered to cease hostilities. It was an actual surrender. The formal signing took place on September 2. Just like in Berlin, hostilities were discontinued on May 2, and the surrender was signed on May 9.

                The United States, in response to the cessation of hostilities from Japan, at noon on August 15, ordered its troops on land, in the air and at sea to also cease all hostilities. The Soviet troops continued military operations, despite the fact that the Japanese troops surrendered without exception, as they were carrying out the order to end hostilities. And how can you think, after that, that the army of millions was outright defeated from Khingan to Port Arthur in 7 days, from August 9 to August 15. It just took 11 days, from August 9 to 22, for the Soviet troops to march from Khingan to Port Arthur in an accelerated march, without Japanese resistance, starting August 15. Give some examples of fierce battles between our troops and the Japanese, such as Operation Bagration, or the capture of Konigsberg.

                And private. My father ended the war as a captain, commander of a battery of 76 mm guns, in Port Arthur. It was he who walked from Khingan to the Pacific Ocean. Even before I got acquainted with the history of 2MB, I heard the stories of my father about the mass surrender, without resistance, of Japanese soldiers. And there was even a moment when the father, along with the orderly, escorted about 2 thousand Japanese prisoners of war. Fortunately, they were disciplined.
  43. +6
    11 January 2013 18: 30
    Plusanul vadimN because I support his point of view. Let's remember the roads of July-August 1941, thousands, tens of thousands of civilian refugees and Nazi aircraft, which for fun drives refugees through the fields and roads. Or maybe it wasn't? And "Armenia" is a hospital ship with clearly visible identification marks with a red cross on the decks and a flag on a flagpole. Sunk by Nazi dive bombers in September 1941, on a clear day, there were about 5000 wounded evacuated from Crimean hospitals to the Caucasus on the ship. This episode of the war is very well described in the book of the former chief of staff of the Yalta partisan region Ilya Vergasov "Crimean notebooks." So, as the saying goes, "there is no reason to blame the mirror, if the face is crooked." It was not the Soviet Union that crossed the German border on June 22, 1941, and we did not come up with To destroy the civilian population. Kohl got under the distribution there is nothing to whine. And Marinesco is great, in a storm, two large steamers to the bottom, taking into account the fact that the ammunition on Eskah is 12 torpedoes, a classic torpedo attack. The Germans themselves started with "Luisitania" in 1915.
  44. +1
    11 January 2013 18: 47
    maybe it’s enough to review the history of the war he and his team heroes they fulfilled their military duty and fulfilled it with honor or they all forgot how the Germans drowned our ships and with the wounded and with refugees and the Germans were enemies and for me personally a truce until I never come too many relatives died in the war
  45. +1
    11 January 2013 19: 14
    In contrast to all this, it remains to add that Marinesko was kicked out of the fleet for drunkenness and poor discipline. Marinesko got the job warehouse. They finally got drunk and began to drink drunk state property entrusted to him. He was caught and convicted in 1949 for 3 of the year. I heard that he was put behind a bucket of coal, which he took from a huge pile to heat the house. Who knows, give information, it is very important for what the legendary man was sitting. And then we loved the hero to roll on Kolyma, remember, at least Devyatayev ...
    It is not known who first launched the bike announcing Marinesco as Hitler's personal enemy Was Hitler's enemy or not? Does anyone know for sure? Answer me.
  46. +1
    11 January 2013 19: 26
    In Soviet times, in Liepaja, on the base of the submarine, there was also a bust of A. Marinesko, a hero was a man !!!
  47. -4
    11 January 2013 20: 44
    Article-reflection, and in everything. It is a difficult question whether to consider the "attack of the century" justified or not. Here many compare the similar actions of the German military. Right. But do not forget, the entire fascist ideology is built on the total destruction of the "lower races". In our ideology of that time, this, in my opinion, was not observed. What Marinesco was thinking at that hour: about the millions of Soviet people who died, about the atrocities of the Nazis, about his duty to the Motherland, about the professional duties of a military sailor-submariner, about the large tonnage of the sunk ship recorded at his expense, so as not to lag behind his fellow submariners and etc .... only God knows. One thing is non-negotiable - he did everything right from a professional and military point of view. Emotions ?? Morality concepts ?? If he saw at close range children, pregnant women and other civilians who were turned upside down with horror and pain, the consequences of the attack, so to speak, he might have shot himself ... And so - another warship with a Nazi flag at the bottom .. That's it. the rest is secondary.
    1. +2
      12 January 2013 17: 26
      Quote: Voodoo
      Here many compare the similar actions of the German military. Right. But do not forget, the entire fascist ideology is built on the total destruction of the "lower races".

      How beautifully said
      Quote: Voodoo
      similar actions by the German military

      Have you even understood that you have equalized the sinking of a hospital ship with all the decals and military vehicles!
      Despite the mixed opinions of the article, I find its appearance useful.
      It is very significant that a greater number of site visitors were in solidarity, despite the rating sign!
  48. +3
    11 January 2013 23: 03
    To the question of what is considered a crime during the Second World War? Here is the ambulance with big red crosses on the deck of the m / v "Armenia", which was sunk on the Black Sea in November 1941 by German aircraft, who saw perfectly well that this ambulance ship had more than 5000 people: wounded, refugees from besieged Sevastopol, women , incl. pregnant women, children ... and according to some sources, only 8 people were saved !!! And, unfortunately, there are no heartbreaking memories of the survivors of how these people died. Or another episode, which gentlemen from the Luftwaffe do not like to remember - with the aim of intimidating the CARPET Bombing of Stalingrad by German aircraft in 1942, which was downtrodden by refugees, which the Germans knew very well. Killed, according to some information, about 500 thousand people, civilians, old people, women, children. And the fact of the death of more than 27 MILLION Soviet people, of whom the overwhelming majority are civilians? How many stories, monstrous in cruelty and tragedy, can the survivors of this hell of war tell. So we didn’t start this war, we didn’t define the extremely cruel way of waging this war, violating all international norms. The Nazis began all this and themselves doomed their people to numerous sacrifices, incl. among the civilian population, (which, however, cannot be compared with the victims suffered by the USSR) There could be no other way in such a war!
  49. 0
    11 January 2013 23: 33
    The author of the article tries to focus on the quantitative ratio of combatants and non-combatants on board. And it seems - this is not in favor of the honor and courage of A. Marinesco - they say he drowned so many innocent souls. However, the ship belonged to the enemy's naval forces, the ship did not have special marks indicating its belonging to the civilian or "sanitary" fleet, but on the contrary was painted in the colors of the kingsmarine. On board the ship, there were a large number of so-called combatants (simpler military personnel), who could later use weapons against the USSR. The USSR and Germany were at war. As mentioned above, Marinesco should not have asked the passengers of the military (registered military) transport to present an identity document for the purpose of assessing the legality or unlawfulness of the use of weapons against this card. Since the refugees climbed on the same ship with the military men, that's where they go
  50. mamba
    +3
    12 January 2013 00: 49
    Before Marinesco was "kicked out of the fleet for drunkenness", our admirals actively persecuted him. Envy is a terrible thing that eats away at the soul, but it is a motivation for undercover games, as a result of which, some admirals, who did not participate in a single naval battle, were able to pave their tunics with orders, including military leaders, and peck and rot the hero-submariner ... The slogan "cadres decide everything" in the Admiralty means that it is its cadres who decide everything.
    For some reason, the names of these scoundrels are still not named. But they put so much effort to even bury the memory of Alexander Ivanovich. Shame on them in this and the next world. Glory to the hero-submariner Marinesco!
  51. Sovman
    +5
    12 January 2013 02: 53
    In October 41, in Odessa, the Nazis collected about 25000 TWENTY FIVE THOUSAND!!! residents of the city and the remaining wounded Red Army soldiers, drove them into warehouse barracks and burned them alive, without any torpedoes, bombs or gas chambers. The death of Gustloff ranks first among maritime tragedies, and the tragedy of 25000 is a lost, forgotten line in the long list of fascist crimes. Eternal glory to those who brought that Victory closer!
    http://odesskiy.com/chisto-fakti-iz-zhizni-i-istorii/pamjat-proshloe-okkupatsija
    .html
  52. Ratibor12
    +9
    12 January 2013 04: 47
    The article is false.
    First, about Gustloff.
    The British spent the entire war hunting for the Gustloff, which became a floating barracks for a submariner school. If they sank it, they would call it a feat. And the Russians finished it off - barbarity! The fascist thugs turned into refugees: 3700 non-commissioned officers - graduates of the diving school, 100 submarine commanders who completed a special advanced course in operating boats with a single Walther engine, a women's battalion of the Navy, a military unit of the 88th anti-aircraft regiment, Croatian volunteers. On board the Gustlof were 22 Gauleiters from the Polish and East Prussian lands, many Nazi leaders, senior Gestapo and SS officers, and female concentration camp supervisors. Should I feel sorry for them?

    "...The commandant of the Janow camp, Obersturmführer Wilhaus, for the sake of sport and for the pleasure of his wife and daughter, systematically fired from a machine gun from the balcony of the camp office at prisoners working in the workshops, then handed the machine gun to his wife, and she also shot. Sometimes, to please her 9 -year-old daughter, Vilgauz forced 2-4 year old children into the air and shot at them. The daughter applauded and shouted: “Daddy, more, daddy, more!” - and he shot..."

    After this, it’s hard for me to feel pity for the mythical German children
    "...who were wearing life jackets, turned upside down, and only their helplessly kicking legs protruded above the water..."

    What did the German submariners do? Doenitz's orders from 1940 ordered them to destroy the crews of sunken ships, even if there were children and women in the waves!

    Now about Marinesko.
    As for the fact that “...Marinesko was kicked out of the fleet for drunkenness and poor discipline...” What can you do? The life of a submariner is hard, and the nervous tension is monstrous. And it happened that the “People’s Commissar’s norm” was abused. For example, the commander of K-21 (on which N.A. Lunin then torpedoes the Tirpitz) A.A. Zhukov was written off as a minesweeper for this, but showed himself to be an excellent commander there. True, on the first exit during an attack by enemy aircraft, out of habit, he commanded “Everyone down! Urgent dive!”
    In general, it is not without reason that the old Russian proverb says: “A drunkard is in the navy. A cavalier is in the infantry. A clever woman is in the artillery. A fool is in the cavalry.”
    Marinesko did the most important thing - he fought with dignity and bravery throughout the war. And believe me, not only the Gustloff was sunk! Back in 1940, his boat was recognized as the best in the Baltic Fleet, and the People's Commissar of the Navy awarded Marinesko a gold watch. The commander of the submarine division, Captain 2nd Rank A. Orel, in his combat description indicates: “A combative and brave commander... He knows the underwater business very well... He is disciplined, but in everyday life he requires constant control...”
    Продолжение следует ...
  53. Ratibor12
    +8
    12 January 2013 05: 27
    Next:
    "...Marinesko got a job as a warehouse manager. There he finally became an alcoholic and began drinking away the government property entrusted to him. He was caught and sentenced in 1949 to 3 years..."
    Actually somewhat different.
    "...Since 1948, Marinesko worked at the Institute of Blood Transfusion as a deputy director. The director, a grabber, was building a dacha and wanted to get rid of a principled deputy. With the consent of the director, Alexander Ivanovich delivered the discarded peat briquettes lying in the yard to the homes of low-paid workers. Director V. Kuharchik himself and called the OBKhSS. The first composition of the court disintegrated. The prosecutor, a front-line soldier, seeing the linden, refused the charge, both people's assessors expressed a dissenting opinion. Only judge P. Varkhoeva did not give up. Marinesko was sentenced to 3 years in prison. This term is far from sent, but Marinesko was driven to Kolyma. He was very respected and in his own way “protected” in prison, although they did not know about the exploits of the submariner there. Once in his cell, a book was stolen from him - a gift from his wife. Having learned about this, the owner of the cell, the “godfather” , said: “In a minute you will have the book." But it turned out that the young thief had already cut the book into cards. By order of the “boss,” four lessons killed the guy...
    October 10, 1951 A.I. Marinesko was released early. Then he worked as a loader, topographer, and then came to the Mezon plant, earned many thanks, his portrait hung on the Board of Honor. After his release from prison, he was financially poor. In 1954, he worked in the carpentry workshop of the Higher Naval School of Weapons Engineers, and the cadets ran to sneak a look at the famous submariner. Then he again found himself on trial “allegedly” for falsifying a certificate allowing him to receive a larger pension. Until 1960, when A. Kron spoke in the newspaper, no one around knew about the military merits of Alexander Ivanovich. About two hundred officers, among them 20 admirals and generals, 6 Heroes of the Soviet Union, 45 commanders and commissars of submarines, appealed to the CPSU Central Committee: “Taking into account the exceptional services of A.I. Marinesko to our Motherland, we earnestly request and petition for Marinesko to be granted a personal pension "It cannot be considered fair that such a well-deserved submarine commander found himself in an immeasurably worse position in pension provision than officers who did not participate in the war." The request was initially refused, but then, following numerous requests, by order of the USSR Minister of Defense No. 600 A.I. Marinesko was reinstated to the rank of captain 3rd rank in the reserves with the assignment of an established pension based on length of service...
    ...Marinesko fell mortally ill - two cancers, of the throat and esophagus. He was in a very bad hospital; the hospital did not have enough experience. The veterans went to the commander of the Leningrad naval base, Baikov. The admiral was furious: “In our hospital, God knows who is being treated, but there is no place for Marinesko?” He immediately gave orders and gave me his car. On October 4, 1963, writer Sergei Smirnov said in a television program that the legendary submariner lived in almost poverty. Money poured into Leningrad from all over the country, including even from students and pensioners. Translations continued even when he died..."
    1. Pinochet000
      +2
      12 January 2013 06: 04
      Thank you Ratibor. I just imagined how this Man felt.... Eternal memory!
    2. 0
      26 February 2013 22: 58
      Our Motherland knows how to “worthy” thank its heroes
  54. +5
    12 January 2013 15: 37
    and for some reason I don’t feel sorry for the Germans in that situation, but for the residents of besieged Leningrad (old people, children), who were transported on barges around Ladoga and the Germans knew exactly who was there, and they bombed and sunk ships with children, here they are for me very sorry!!


    “When we left the hospital, my sister was told to either take me to an orphanage, or evacuate with two children. And in August 1942, we were evacuated along Ladoga, along the road of life, on barges. A lot of people died on these barges, before us several barges were bombed."
  55. +5
    12 January 2013 16: 02
    When the Germans sank our hospital ships with Red Crosses on board in 1941-42, no one came on board to make sure there were civilians on board. After all, they had an order to kill any Russian child, woman, or old man. Our civilians died more than soldiers. In concentration camps they took blood from children for their soldiers, carried out medical experiments on living people. Marinesko carried out the order to sink enemy ships and he sank them. Eternal Memory to the Hero.
  56. psdf
    +4
    12 January 2013 16: 43
    How long will the empty talk about “Gustlov”, etc. continue?
    Let's remember "Armenia" more often, find the name of the pilot who threw the torpedoes, discuss his biography, ask his compatriots a question - how can they destroy the transport under the red cross, which had all the signs of a SANITARY SHIP?
    Let us find and remember by name the pilots who bombed the “road of life”, ships sailing from besieged Leningrad.
    Who, I wonder, did they work after the war? How were they treated? How did you sleep at night?
    1. +1
      12 January 2013 17: 18
      By the way, yes, I don’t think it’s difficult.
      1. +1
        12 January 2013 21: 02
        that this is not just difficult - it is IMPOSSIBLE in principle... Do you understand who in Germany will let you delve into the archives if they find out what you are looking for? Who will give you money to travel there? Oligarchs? Rulers? Nonsense! All these brethren are pissing boiling water in front of the Germans or p.i.n.d.o.s.a.m.i. And you say “it’s not difficult.” I personally think that in modern times this is not only difficult, but even DANGEROUS...
      2. psdf
        0
        12 January 2013 22: 51
        And to top it off - a series of articles in the German press about the millions of Soviet citizens who died in the Second World War at the hands of the occupiers.
        It's interesting to see their reaction.
    2. 0
      29 October 2013 16: 07
      Quote: psdf
      Let us find and remember by name the pilots who bombed the “road of life”, ships sailing from besieged Leningrad.
      Who, I wonder, did they work after the war? How were they treated? How did you sleep at night?

      I think it's strong and calm. And many of the “aces of diamonds” later also taught the young shoots of the Budeswehr. And, I suspect, not only on technical issues, but also on their savage ideology. That is why no voices are heard from Germany about “fraternal reconciliation and the construction of a new world” near the ovens of Auschwitz, the shores of Ladoga, the slope of Babyn Yar... That is probably why Germany stubbornly remains silent in the dispute around Katyn, leaving Russia the opportunity to wallow in the crap that they themselves spread in front of two-faced representatives of the Red Cross.
  57. Ivanair
    +1
    12 January 2013 17: 10
    So-so. Yesterday I read about the “inhumane” bombings of the Allies, today - about the “inhumane” Marinesko.
    Question to the authors: what do you want to prove with this?
    "Gustlov" was a warship. German cities are centers of military industry (and they would have remained so for a very long time if not for these bombings).

    ONLY the German leadership is to blame for the deaths of German civilians. It started a war (the fact that someone incited them is not an argument, you had to think with your own head). If they cared about their population, they would behave differently.

    And I am strongly against it when they try to put the fascists and their opponents on the same level. Even if they are Anglo-Saxons. Yes, today many people will accept material with such a presentation, but tomorrow they will be just as “unobtrusively” convinced that the Russians were the same.

    No revision of the results of World War II!
    1. 0
      12 January 2013 17: 52
      Quote: Ivanair
      So-so. Yesterday I read about the “inhumane” bombings of the Allies, today - about the “inhumane” Marinesko.

      And here's Mr. Voodoo, easily equalized the sinking of Gustlov and Armenia.
      You are really right, it is not enough to move smoothly to a discussion of the results of World War II!
      But as for
      Quote: Ivanair
      German cities are centers of military industry (and they would have remained so for a very long time if not for these bombings).

      The conversation here is not about humanity/inhumanity, just read about it, it feels like this is not a very clear topic for you.
      Once again, the conversation is not about humanity. RESIDENTIAL neighborhoods were wiped off the face of the earth, and factories were destroyed mainly in the territory of the occupation zone of Russia.
      In relation to war, think about it: Who exactly, or rather whose planes, destroyed German cities?! Russian or English? Exactly . You will also explain the use of atomic weapons against Japan as an attempt to destroy its military potential!
      Are war crimes familiar words?
      So the gentlemen are trying to cast a shadow over the fence so that people will confuse where the war criminal acted and where the soldier acted!
      1. 0
        10 May 2021 04: 46
        Let's start from the end. In the USSR, stories about nuclear bombings were part of propaganda. And, of course, it was not said that Hiroshima was the location of the rear headquarters and the center of the military industry (read more in the book by Horikoshi/Okumiya, “The History of the Japanese Air Force in the Pacific”).
        And, like any such center, it was a legitimate military target, according to all the laws and customs of war. In any case, it is not for the Japanese, who carried out carpet bombings of Chinese cities, to complain about this.
        Next, about factories and residential areas. Here you are also repeating Soviet propaganda - moreover, propaganda from the time of Epishev. How was it known before the Potsdam Conference what kind of political system would be on German territory and how reparations would be withdrawn from Germany, huh? But in your opinion, it turns out that not only Roosevelt and Churchill, but also the entire strategic leadership of the USA and Great Britain knew this (even before Stalin).
  58. wax
    +2
    12 January 2013 22: 44
    Plus I put the article wrongly. The Soviet naval sailor Marinescu sank the largest warship of Nazi Germany. Glory to the hero!
  59. 0
    13 January 2013 00: 56
    And I personally think that Marinescu definitely had to surface on the boat with the transport_excuse me, they say, you should have checked what you were carrying? And to your German virgins, well, excuse me, have a good trip, fellow fascists. And the site also suggests an article about millions of unfortunate raped German women. However, the Germans suffered from us monsters!
    1. 0
      13 January 2013 16: 59
      Quote: jimm
      And the site also suggests an article about millions of unfortunate raped German women

      There was something similar, a very cool topic to dig into, though it was earlier. on the wave of condemnation of sex harassment: We were told earlier - I looked at how he gave me a ruble, they looked and they have an article ready, hmm, about attempted harassment of the same one, and if you said a compliment, then you may not get away with a fine, you will go to jail!
      Now we can most likely expect articles in a different vein; he’s the one who shouts loudest, catch the thief himself!
      Yes, even.
      Quote: jimm
      Marinescu definitely had to surface, on the boat with the transport_excuse me, they say, you should check what you are carrying?

      It was, but during the First World War. They were also allowed to lower lifeboats. Until the trap ships appeared.
      After several knight submariners were shot after surfacing (how much does that submarine need?), everyone who got into the periscope was drowned! They'll sort it out there!
  60. sailor76
    +2
    13 January 2013 02: 44
    Honor and glory to the heroic crew of submarine s13 and captain A.I. Marinesko! I tell my children, I hope they will tell their grandchildren. Welhelm Guslav was a symbol of Nazi Germany and at the same time a training base for German submariners, no matter what anyone said. None of the Germans pilots who bombed civilian barges and ships of the TALLINN CONVOY did not think about whether there were refugees on them? With German pedantry they bombed, dooming thousands of people to death, and the survivors and boats were shot from machine guns and cannons. They saw and knew who they were shooting at! Alexander Ivanovich shot at the enemy!
  61. Beck
    0
    13 January 2013 19: 37
    Here I was given minuses because I would not torpedo a ship with the Red Cross. (Marinesko torpedoed the transport, not the ambulance).

    And current forum members want to personally sink the ship with refugees themselves, justifying this as revenge for the atrocities of the Nazis. Atrocities are atrocities and must not be forgotten. But it was not the refugees who started the war and committed atrocities. You can’t be like the fascists, otherwise you yourself will become a fascist.

    If there are some who are ready to deliberately and purposefully kill women and children, then they are already internally ready to build crematoria and burn in them peoples whose individual representatives have committed evil.

    You need to think about it, within yourself, if you have such desires.
    1. +1
      13 January 2013 20: 28
      Quote: Beck
      Here I was given minuses because I would not torpedo a ship with the Red Cross.

      No, the question about this was essentially provocative.
      After all, it’s enough to remember the quote from the article
      30 January in the sea broke out a violent storm. The cabin of the boat, antennas and periscopes are quickly covered with a thick layer of ice. The commander and commissar peer into the darkness with pain in their eyes. And then the silhouette of a huge vessel appeared.

      What crosses, what white coloring?!
      Yes, let it be painted three times white and painted with red crosses!!!
      They would have drowned him in one fell swoop! Night !!! What will you see through the periscope!!!
      But medical ships don’t sail with such security!
      This is war! And then they started talking about legality!
      There are no two interpretations for the death of “Armenia”!

      The ship had all the required signs and flag! The sinking of the ship occurred during the day by aviation! Some sources mention the subsequent attack on those remaining on the water after the sinking of the ship!
      Hmm, I just went through the sites mentioning this tragedy and it turns out that it was classified and kept silent for 50 years!
      That is, the world learned about this tragedy in the early 90s thanks to victorious democracy?!
      But what to do with the fact that I came across references to this tragedy in literature when I was at school, and graduated in ’75!
      It turns out that the post-war history of the Great War is already being slowly rewritten?!
  62. 0
    14 January 2013 13: 43
    The last section of the article put everything in its place. Everything is summed up correctly. Alexander Marinesko fulfilled his duty and destroyed his enemies. He did everything right. The fact that there were civilians on the warship was a crime of the German commanders.
    But this is all dry reasoning. But bearing the cross of the death of several thousand people is a heavy burden. It is not surprising that after the war Aleksandr Ivanovich drank a lot.

    May your spirit rest in peace, glorious warrior. I bow to you low to the ground for our victory.
  63. i.xxx-1971
    0
    14 January 2013 15: 39
    This is what I read about him somewhere: he couldn’t stand inspectors, of whom there were plenty even then. When he learned about a possible inspection, he lay down on the ground right next to the pier and remained there until they left. When a patrol detained one of the crew members and he was placed in a guardhouse, Marinesko personally went to the military commandant and asked to release him, and when he refused, he threatened to shoot the commandant’s office from the boat’s gun. For some reason, the commandant believed that he would do this and released the sailor. For a successful operation, while the boat was based in Finland at the end of the war, the Finns gave him either a Ford or a Packard, which he brought to the base on the deck of the boat. The car, of course, was taken away by naval commanders; they always need such things more. During the same period of time he had a Finnish mistress. One night her husband unexpectedly returned home while Marinesko was visiting her, so to speak. When she asked what to do, he advised sending her husband, which she did. And when in the morning a messenger came for him with a combat order to urgently go to sea, this Finnish woman told him that he, in turn, should send the messenger to hell. In general, the woman turned out to be insidious. Further more. For this act he was threatened with a military summons, but the entire crew of the boat stood up for their commander, which testifies to his human qualities: in wartime, people would not take risks for a scumbag. He was lucky with his immediate superior, who gave him the opportunity to go to sea before the special officers arrived, and for one thing he ordered him to perform a feat. I think at the same time, Marinesko received advice based on naval intelligence data about where he should be at the right time. And then the professionalism of both the commander and the crew affected. On the question of the people who were on the Gustlof. The opinion of a non-professional on history: why were there only refugees on the Gustlof, and only military personnel on the Steuben, which was sunk a few days later?
  64. i.xxx-1971
    0
    14 January 2013 15: 55
    Why were there only refugees on the Gustlof, and only military personnel on the Steuben, which was sunk a few days later, as the Germans themselves admit? Or did something change in the German minds and they banned the evacuation of civilians, who were useless for the front, and began sending military units that were priceless at that moment for obvious drowning? It seems to me that the answer is obvious - they did not allow civilians onto the ships. The Germans are pragmatists, and in 1945 they were pragmatists in a cube. Those who were of value were rescued first, and women and children (with the exception of wives and prostitutes) were everywhere left to be torn to pieces by the advancing Red Army as objects for general rape. I believe that the sinking of the Gustlof is interesting only as a combat episode in the glorious history of the S-13 with an increase in the destroyed tonnage of the enemy fleet and nothing more. There were no refugees there, and whoever died was written in his German family. You had to be born Peruvian or Honduran.
  65. 0
    16 January 2013 15: 22
    One can argue for a long time what personal qualities A.I. possessed. Marinesko, but there is no doubt about his professionalism and enormous personal contribution to the Victory over Nazi Germany. Yesterday, January 15, 2013, was the 100th anniversary of the birth of Alexander Ivanovich. Thank you, Alexander Ivanovich, for your military work!
  66. +1
    26 February 2013 21: 49
    Marinesko's feat, but already in the air, on September 1, 1983, was repeated by the deputy commander of the 117th IAP, Lieutenant Colonel Gennady Osipovich, who, on his SU-15, shot down a South Korean Boeing that had invaded the airspace of the USSR, in the Kuril Islands region. He was also awarded by his Motherland " worthy,” as much as the Order of the Red Star, I don’t want to belittle this order, but in those days, in principle, many were awarded it, incl. for significant dates and for length of service. Perhaps Lieutenant Colonel Osipovich did not deserve the Hero of the Soviet Union (although who knows what was on board that Boeing? But it is definitely established that he was carrying out a reconnaissance flight on instructions from the CIA, over strategic areas of the USSR). But Osipovich definitely deserved the Order of the Red Banner of Battle (this order is much higher in status than the Red Star). Then he was quickly moved from the Far East to a similar position in the IAP, stationed in Maykop, and soon after the accident he was discharged from the Air Force into the reserve (the official version is due to received injuries from a plane accident, although he recovered quite quickly), he never received a colonel. Now he lives on a farm, in a small house, on the border of the Krasnodar Territory and the Republic of Adygea, helps his wife in the garden beds, grow carrots. Even if Lieutenant Colonel Osipovich, due to his condition health could not be admitted to flight service, was it really impossible to find a worthy use for a brave, combat pilot who fulfilled his military duty with honor?
    1. 0
      27 February 2013 10: 47
      Quote: voronov
      The same Motherland awarded him “worthy”, even with the Order of the Red Star

      Osipovich found himself, as if caught in a millstone, between two superpowers. The USSR Empire was already dying, but its pilots still carried out commands unquestioningly. And the Union still wanted to prove that it was cool. And the US empire then for the first time felt that it could rush to the political center of the world, and was stunned by the feeling of its own impunity. By and large, the US invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq began over Sakhalin. The same arrogant and reckless self-affirmation at the expense of other states, like the verification of the USSR in 1983 at the expense of Korea.
      1. +1
        27 February 2013 17: 45
        In 1983 The USSR was dying, what are you talking about, comrade? You were apparently born in the 90s and it is unknown from what sources you draw such conclusions. In those years, I, a recent graduate of the University, lieutenant, commander of the reconnaissance platoon of the DSB, like thousands of others like me across the river, did not feel the death of the USSR. The rest of the citizens in the Union did not have such a feeling. If Lieutenant Colonel Osipovich had been guided by your reasoning during the execution of a combat mission, then he probably would not have completed it. soldier
        1. 0
          27 February 2013 21: 36
          Everything about you is too abstruse, I still don’t understand what you wanted to say to everyone? wassat
    2. Misantrop
      0
      27 February 2013 22: 00
      A friend of mine was a ground guidance operator at that time and in that area. According to him, SUCH a mess was going on there on the air... And at the control center, bosses in high ranks pressed the operator with meager shoulder straps, provoking him to make a decision. And categorically not wanting to expose ourselves...
  67. +1
    27 February 2013 18: 15
    Quote: voronov
    In 1983 The USSR was dying, what are you talking about, comrade?

    Et from here
    http://www.kp.ru/daily/23104/22963
    I spent a long time looking for a source where the fulfillment of an order/military duty by an officer would not be shown at least more or less objectively.
    And I’ve long been accustomed to omitting such words ( wink ) past . Kicking an exhausted lion is an indescribable thrill for greyhound writers.
    drinks
    1. 0
      27 February 2013 21: 39
      Everything about you is too abstruse. I still don’t understand what you wanted to say to everyone? Probably you are the “lion” laughing
      1. 0
        27 February 2013 21: 52
        Quote: voronov
        Probably you are the "lion"

        Hmm.
        And a thrilling borzoscriber, this probably means you!!! laughing laughing laughing
        We had fun thanks! I haven't laughed so much in a long time!
        No, everything is strictly within the framework of the answer to your remark about the dying USSR _The Exhausted Lion!
  68. 0
    23 June 2015 15: 19
    Oh, there were children there... Oh, there were girls there... Who the hell was there. In the USSR there were also children and women whom the Germans killed in tens of thousands.
  69. 0
    April 10 2016 20: 46
    Marinescu Alexander - commander
    Dedicated to the S-13 submarine.
    ---------------------------------
    In Odessa, the southern sea city,
    A boy was born with a sea soul.
    He inherited his father's genes
    He took his facial features from his mother.
    Among the gang he grew up as a tomboy,
    He caught bulls and was the best swimmer,
    He was brave, dexterous, daring,
    Like all Gavroshi, he was sinful.
    No one oppressed him or spoiled him.
    He worked hard at the yacht club with his friends.
    He loved the corner and did not like the oval.
    He forged his own code of honor.
    When he was growing up, no one thought
    What is this young, simple hero,
    I planned to dedicate my feat
    The fight against the fascist horde.
    There was enough room in his character
    And mischief and feat for humanity.
    He was mixed from tough dough
    To exterminate the enemies of the Fatherland.
    His submarine is the liner "Gustlov"
    Sent to the next world with the Nazis.
    The path was paved with mines by his enemies,
    But he and the crew met the dawn.
    For heroism in battles in the Baltic Sea
    “Hitler's enemy” he deserved the title.
    He caused enormous grief to the Nazis.
    To his shame, he did not receive the “Hero Star”.
    He was envied, humiliated, forgotten,
    They were hastily demoted and transferred to the reserve.
    The merits of the entire team were forgotten,
    And even the fact that he saved many lives.
    There is no forgiveness for those who overlooked the hero,
    To those who broke his dream.
    To the detriment of the Fatherland, he was excommunicated from the sea,
    His experience and talent were ruined.
    His morals and code of honor
    Tormented by a plot of revenge,
    When I wrote to my family from Kolyma,
    Like the enemy, he too “sat” on the bench.
    We are erecting a monument to Prince Nevsky
    Through forgotten centuries later.
    To living heroes like Marinescu,
    Sometimes we take it lightly.
    Marinescu's path - stars pattern.
    Both Judgment and Glory intersected in him.
    To those who judged him - Shame!
    To those who raised the hero - Glory!
    ---------------------------------
    The story of A. Kron is instructive for everyone
    About the submarine commander thirteen.
    The hero's name will make a noise like a crown
    There are twenty generations on the tree of history.
    -------------------
    http://www.stihi.ru/2008/01/10/510
  70. 0
    April 26 2019 22: 45
    , they “forgot” to say that Marinesko was rehabilitated.
  71. 0
    10 May 2021 04: 33
    Propaganda. Moreover, the author does not hide the fact that he writes propaganda.
    1. Instead of examining in detail whether the Wilhelm Gustloff was a military ship or not (and since it was a floating barracks, it was), what weapons it had, what part was assigned to it, the author talks nonsense about the poor refugees of East Prussia . And instead of detailing what percentage of the passengers were military, the author lays out propaganda nonsense about “girls from the auxiliary personnel of the Navy” (that is, were they military? Were they combatants or were they not, for that matter? It seems to me , what were they?) and “one-legged veterans of the Franco-Prussian war.” Author, teach the materiel - these are NOT military, because they are NOT combatants!
    2. Referring to the book “Sea Captain” by A. Kron, the author does not miss the opportunity to kick A. Kron. But A. Kron did not write a historical study, but an artistic biography. Because he was a full-fledged writer, and not a propagandist, like an author. And at the same time, he examined in detail all the problematic areas of Marinesko’s biography, relying on available documents (his book was written in the 1980s).
    3. Marinesko was NOT a drunkard, no matter what the author claimed. Yes, he was imprisoned (by the way, the “story of his crime” is told in detail by Krohn), but he did not die from drunkenness. However, I think that the author has been given a grant to throw fertilizer on the fan in order to smear the Soviet past as thickly as possible, right?
    4. The elite of German submarines was NOT destroyed in 1942-44. Yes, German submarines suffered heavy losses at this time (by the way, the author, learn the materiel - not in 1942-44, but in 1944-45), but (as both German and Anglo-American naval historians unanimously agree) in 1945 they were full-fledged a combat element capable of performing any combat mission, and in 1945 they were on the verge of a technological breakthrough (submarines of the XXI and XXIII series), which would have eliminated Anglo-American superiority at sea (the capture of Berlin by the Soviet army prevented it).
    author, learn the materiel!!!
  72. 0
    31 December 2023 17: 23
    On the issue of “the delicacy and complexity of the issue of relations with Germany”...
    Well, what about the sinking of the ambulance transport "Armenia", or the death of almost all passenger ships of the Tallinn crossing!? There were also wounded, civilians and children - on the "Armenia" the majority of 7-10 thousand (there were three loadings in Sevastopol, Balaklava and Yalta and no one kept count), the Tallinn tragedy claimed the lives of more than 15.0 thousand people, of which 4,6 ,XNUMX thousand civilians.
    Why don't the authors of the article puzzle the German leadership about the "delicacy and complexity of the issue of relations with Russia."
    There were no inhumane actions in Marinesko’s actions, there are not and there should not be in the future. Germany waged a total war of “destruction” with the USSR, where “either you or you.” We must not forget about this, and also about the fact that Russia has no friends (Emperor Alexander III), and be less sentimental about various “Germanies and others.”

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