Military Review

Assembly of the world's first international thermonuclear reactor begins in France: Russia participates

121
Assembly of the world's first international thermonuclear reactor begins in France: Russia participates

In political and military-political terms, the world is experiencing obvious turbulence. And at this moment, a truly significant event, which shows the possibility of productive cooperation even between geopolitical opponents, was the start of work on assembling the world's first thermonuclear reactor.


The fusion reactor ITER is being assembled in France. The work involves specialists from France itself, other EU countries, as well as from Russia, the USA, Japan, China, South Korea, Kazakhstan, India. Many companies from other countries of the world are involved in the project.

Preparations for construction in the French town of Cadarache began back in 2007. And the original agreement itself was signed back in 1992. We are talking about work on the creation of an experimental international thermonuclear reactor.

French President Emmanuel Macron attended the ceremony to start assembling the TNR (thermonuclear reactor). According to him, the reactor is planned to be put into operation in 2025. Then a series of scientific and practical experiments with deuterium-tritium plasma will begin.



The planned volume of capacity is 700 MW (it is quite comparable with operating "conventional" reactors at nuclear power plants). However, the value of ITER is not in its power, but in the fact that it can be used to study physical processes occurring under conditions that will be created inside the TNR.

Reactor video from 2015:



Video from 2020 year:



The Kurchatov Institute, the Institute of Nuclear Physics, and others are participating in the work on the part of Russia.
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  1. Mavrikiy
    Mavrikiy 30 July 2020 07: 11 New
    -32
    The work involves specialists from France itself, other EU countries, as well as from Russia, the USA, Japan, China, South Korea, Kazakhstan, India. Many companies from other countries of the world are involved in the project.
    Do we need it? We ourselves can do everything, only money here ....... request
    1. Flamberg
      Flamberg 30 July 2020 07: 16 New
      19
      On what basis do you state this?
      1. Mavrikiy
        Mavrikiy 30 July 2020 07: 18 New
        -18
        Quote: Flamberg
        On what basis do you state this?

        And on what grounds do you doubt?
        1. Flamberg
          Flamberg 30 July 2020 07: 21 New
          26
          On the basis of what many want but cannot do. For the task is not trivial, to keep a plasma with a temperature of 10 ^ 9 K.
          1. Mavrikiy
            Mavrikiy 30 July 2020 07: 24 New
            -23
            Quote: Flamberg
            On the basis of what many want but cannot do.

            We are not many, there are no more like us. request
            The tavern.
            Cavalier of the Red Banner №3: - There are two more like me.
            Mayakovsky: - I am alone.
            Khlebnikov: There are no others like me.
            1. Flamberg
              Flamberg 30 July 2020 07: 27 New
              23
              In my opinion, the crown presses on you.
              1. Mavrikiy
                Mavrikiy 30 July 2020 07: 32 New
                -26
                Quote: Flamberg
                In my opinion, the crown presses on you.

                negative I'm sure your horns are growing, file regularly. request
                1. military_cat
                  military_cat 30 July 2020 09: 04 New
                  -2
                  And at this moment, a truly significant event, which shows the possibility of productive cooperation even between geopolitical opponents, was the start of work on the assembly of the world's first thermonuclear reactor.

                  the original agreement itself was signed back in 1992

                  This is a landmark event from the 90s, as is Russia's participation in the ISS. A significant event of the current years is the program of the lunar station Gateway with international participation, but without Russia.
          2. Ded_Mazay
            Ded_Mazay 30 July 2020 07: 32 New
            -18
            This problem has long been solved on the basis of our tokomak technology.
            1. Flamberg
              Flamberg 30 July 2020 07: 43 New
              20
              Yeah, and a nuclear reactor is as simple as two kopecks - a piece of uranium into which a graphite rod is poked. And a nuclear bomb is even simpler - we combine two pieces of uranium to a supercritical mass and broads. But in reality, everything is very, very difficult ...
              1. Ded_Mazay
                Ded_Mazay 30 July 2020 07: 49 New
                -14
                So, why is your "dissenting opinion"? Do you disagree that this reactor is "tokamak" or that this is Soviet technology?
                1. Flamberg
                  Flamberg 30 July 2020 07: 57 New
                  13
                  This is to ensure that it is difficult to implement these principles and technologies that as much as PPC.
                  1. Ded_Mazay
                    Ded_Mazay 30 July 2020 15: 20 New
                    -6
                    The principle has been worked out for a long time, there is no need to "reinvent the wheel" You just need to design a device with the specified characteristics. And these are tasks of a purely engineering plan.
                    1. Alex823
                      Alex823 30 July 2020 23: 39 New
                      -1
                      Now theoretical physics is in principle at an impasse. The problem is with an unsuitable theory, but one cannot even argue with it officially, any apostasy is anathema or hushed up. There are a lot of people who have made a name for themselves sitting on this, a lot of money is spinning there. After all, almost any government wants to keep up with science, but it itself understands little in it, and these pundits will explain how to spend this money. They have been trying to make a thermonuclear fusion according to such a design for a long time, but there is no sense, but we will make the design even larger, as in that anecdote about a weevil. But, and it will not work, because the trailer has problems in theory.
                2. Bashkirkhan
                  Bashkirkhan 30 July 2020 08: 07 New
                  +5
                  First, the USSR invented a tokamak - a closed trap. The international community took the tokamak as the basis for the development of controlled thermonuclear fusion, and began funding ITER.
                3. Vadim237
                  Vadim237 30 July 2020 14: 03 New
                  +1
                  In Russia, their thermonuclear reactor is being built on the principle of fuel compression with 192 lasers, the installation is the most powerful in the world, the first launch in 2022.
            2. your1970
              your1970 30 July 2020 10: 50 New
              +5
              Alas, it has not yet been resolved on anybody's technology. The Soviet Tokamak is the basis, the idea. But workers of technologies no so far
              1. Ded_Mazay
                Ded_Mazay 30 July 2020 15: 39 New
                +1
                Quote: your1970
                But there are still no working technologies

                I hesitate to ask, but the developers of ITER are completely yours fool ? Designed and began construction in the center of Europe of a thermonuclear reactor without a "working technology" for keeping high-temperature plasma in the reactor core. So it turns out, did I understand you correctly?
                About the British "Joint European Torus" in Culham, operating since 1984, I generally keep quiet ...
            3. orionvitt
              orionvitt 30 July 2020 14: 27 New
              0
              Quote: Ded_Mazay
              This problem has long been solved on the basis of our tokomak technology

              Yeah, solvable, I would even say long ago. That's just purely in the form of theory and in the quiet of academic classrooms. And also in the form of a certain number of experimental installations, which have not advanced much to breakthroughs in this area. So far, the prototypes of "thermonuclear reactors" consume energy exclusively (and in gigantic quantities), not give it out. Well, okay, the road will be mastered by the walker, let's see what happens.
    2. Viktor Sergeev
      Viktor Sergeev 30 July 2020 07: 57 New
      10
      You still don't understand that this is just an experiment so far, an attempt to understand what and how will happen inside, like a collider. Now, if everything goes well, you can do it at home.
      1. forest1
        forest1 30 July 2020 08: 05 New
        11
        Not. According to calculations. It should work. The calculations most likely do not lie - they are well worked out. If there is no accident, a stable thermonuclear reaction will be achieved. If everything works out, they will begin to make a thermonuclear industrial reactor from which it will be possible to remove the useful power. Nothing is supposed to be removed from this. Its task is to demonstrate the possibility of achieving a stable long-term thermonuclear reaction under terrestrial conditions. So far, no one has succeeded.
        1. Viktor Sergeev
          Viktor Sergeev 30 July 2020 08: 07 New
          +5
          Often, the calculations turn out to be not entirely correct, simply because we still do not know and do not understand much. Often, theory follows practice, after its mistakes.
          1. forest1
            forest1 30 July 2020 08: 08 New
            -3
            Everything is very well known there. This is physics. The problem is solely in materials (both quantity and quality) and high cost
        2. halpat
          halpat 30 July 2020 08: 50 New
          0
          Quote: forest1
          Not. According to calculations. It should work. The calculations most likely do not lie - they are well worked out. If there is no accident, a stable thermonuclear reaction will be achieved. If everything works out, they will begin to make a thermonuclear industrial reactor from which it will be possible to remove the useful power. Nothing is supposed to be removed from this. Its task is to demonstrate the possibility of achieving a stable long-term thermonuclear reaction under terrestrial conditions. So far, no one has succeeded.

          All clear.
          The question is different. Why are all such things done in the West and not in Russia?
          At present, after the construction of this facility, Russia may well be denied access to it, to the results of research, to conduct scientific experiments. Easy and relaxed, like with the Mistrals. And do not tell me about the fact that you cannot compare hard with cold.
          In Russia, of course, only the PIK in Gatchina was "put on the squeeze", as far as I know, VVR, the project "from the times of the Ochakovskys and the conquest of the Crimea." The construction was furious.
          But now it seems like "the suit has changed."
          1. forest1
            forest1 30 July 2020 08: 56 New
            +2
            One country alone cannot handle this. It is very expensive and time consuming. And if one country does, it will be much more expensive and longer. There are no special scientific experiments there, the reactor itself is an experiment designed to confirm the theoretical calculation and check the designed structure for the possibility of accident-free operation. Nobody was denied access to basic research. The Russian physicists at the collider worked like everyone else. Russia has been building ships for 10 years. Such a reactor could be built in 50 years, and even money will not help to reduce the time. The problem is in the production base, organization and so on.
          2. Nastia makarova
            Nastia makarova 30 July 2020 09: 03 New
            -7
            let's say ours are kicked out of there, so what? all studies are transmitted online and we will not suffer, but they are definitely without our specialists
            1. halpat
              halpat 30 July 2020 09: 18 New
              +5
              Quote: Nastia Makarova
              let's say ours are kicked out of there, so what? all studies are transmitted online and we will not suffer, but they are definitely without our specialists

              Something I have not heard about the transfer of research in the field of hypersonic weapons, for example, with all the calculations, online.
              Moreover, even the development of a vaccine against coronavirus is being hidden, kept secret, periodically accusing each other of stealing the developments.
              and then thermonuclear fusion and put on an industrial basis ... a task.
              this (for Russia) may lead to the fact that some of the most gifted Russian scientists will remain in the West and Russia will be cut off from all developments as soon as the light appears at the end of the tunnel.
              In my opinion, it is clear as a white day. Not?
              1. Nastia makarova
                Nastia makarova 30 July 2020 09: 58 New
                -2
                so this is an international project that lasts 20 years, then we will cut it off according to the knowledge gained
    3. EvilLion
      EvilLion 30 July 2020 08: 21 New
      +8
      I would at least study the state of research in the field of thermonuclear energy in the world. Everything is so complicated there that in fact the whole world has been doing it for decades.
      1. halpat
        halpat 30 July 2020 09: 02 New
        0
        Quote: EvilLion
        I would at least study the state of research in the field of thermonuclear energy in the world. Everything is so complicated there that in fact the whole world has been doing it for decades.

        Colleagues, do you understand the question?
        I repeat: Why is IT being built in France, and not in Russia?
        Let everyone go to the site in Russia, not to France.
        Here in Russia, thanks to the efforts of scientists from all over the world, this sophisticated technology would have been worked out.
        Why not?
        1. EvilLion
          EvilLion 30 July 2020 10: 16 New
          +1
          Why not in the United States, or not in India?
        2. A.TOR
          A.TOR 30 July 2020 10: 38 New
          +5
          Because it is more comfortable to live and work in Europe.
          Because it is easier, easier and faster to bring parts and components from contractors.
          Because there are skilled builders in France.
          Just because
          It's good to wave flags in Russia
          1. snucerist
            snucerist 30 July 2020 11: 22 New
            +1
            Add.
            Because not in Russia, perhaps, they steal less.
        3. your1970
          your1970 30 July 2020 10: 57 New
          +2
          Out of sports interest - read about JINR - when people come to our accelerators and reactors from all over the world. And not sickly money invest in this opportunity ...
        4. Al_lexx
          Al_lexx 30 July 2020 12: 07 New
          0
          Quote: Halpat
          Why not?

          What would you get the answer to your question, answer yourself to the question - "What would that?"
          What will change if the assembly site of such a complex object is transferred from Europe, with its excellent logistics and living conditions, where is the thread beyond the Urals? And in general, how do scientific and technological preferences depend on the place of assembly of a purely experimental installation? ))
          1. halpat
            halpat 30 July 2020 13: 03 New
            0
            Quote: Al_lexx
            Quote: Halpat
            Why not?

            What would you get the answer to your question, answer yourself to the question - "What would that?"
            What will change if the assembly site of such a complex object is transferred from Europe, with its excellent logistics and living conditions, where is the thread beyond the Urals? And in general, how do scientific and technological preferences depend on the place of assembly of a purely experimental installation? ))

            My answer is short: they directly depend.
            And I will ask: Why for the Urals? It is quite possible to build in the European part of Russia. And if only for the Urals :))
            remember the movie "Formula of Love"
            1. Al_lexx
              Al_lexx 31 July 2020 02: 02 New
              0
              Quote: Halpat
              My answer is short: they directly depend.

              Бггг ...)))))
              It's like, "My teaching is true because it is true." )))
    4. jekasimf
      jekasimf 30 July 2020 09: 08 New
      +1
      Better to experiment in France, further away from us ...
    5. NEXUS
      NEXUS 30 July 2020 09: 46 New
      +3
      Quote: Mavrikiy
      We can do everything ourselves, just the money ...

      We can't, and it's not only about money, but also about the technical base. But on the basis of the results and experience, after that, it will be possible to try to bungle something of your own.
      As an example ... the Russian collider NIKA.
      The collider created in Novosibirsk will be twice as compact as planned: its length will be only 470 m. Scientists have figured out how to make the accelerator smaller and cheaper, but more powerful.



      Typically, such plants have impressive dimensions to achieve the required energy values, such as, for example, the Large Hadron Collider, whose length is 27 km.

      However, Russian scientists have proposed a different approach - the use of greater intensity, rather than energy, due to which the accelerator will occupy a relatively small area. The new tool will ensure the global priority of domestic science for 10 years.
    6. bar
      bar 30 July 2020 10: 30 New
      0
      We can do everything ourselves, just the money ...

      That's it. And the paddling pool has money. So it is not a sin for us to take part and learn for other people's money.
  2. Ros 56
    Ros 56 30 July 2020 07: 13 New
    +7
    Russia is one of the leading countries in the world in atomic energy and it would seem strange if it did not participate in this project.
    1. Kisa
      Kisa 30 July 2020 07: 55 New
      0
      so the problem is that all leading technologies are used in competing countries to destroy the population of a neighbor. exceptions, perhaps a kolaider, but this artificial sun
    2. alma
      alma 30 July 2020 08: 43 New
      14
      The only pity is that Science is often held hostage by Politics. After all, a situation may arise when Russia will want to restrict access to this project, despite its participation.
      1. Nastia makarova
        Nastia makarova 30 July 2020 09: 04 New
        -2
        it is to cut off one's arms and legs, all research is transferred to our institutes
      2. military_cat
        military_cat 30 July 2020 09: 42 New
        0
        Quote: alma
        After all, a situation may arise when Russia will want to restrict access to this project
        That is unlikely. Rather, the next project (DEMO) may not be accepted for political reasons.
    3. A.TOR
      A.TOR 30 July 2020 16: 46 New
      +1
      Russia is one of the leading countries in the world in astronautics ...
      It would have looked strange if she did not participate in the Gateway project.
  3. Flamberg
    Flamberg 30 July 2020 07: 13 New
    10
    However, the value of ITER is not in its power, but in the fact that it can be used to study physical processes occurring under conditions that will be created inside the TNR.

    Come on?
    The value will already be in the fact that it will work corny. This will be an event comparable to the first manned flight into space.
    1. NDR-791
      NDR-791 30 July 2020 07: 23 New
      -4
      The value will already be in the fact that it will work corny.
      We made the Hadron Collider, we participated. And where is that collider now? After the emergency first start, you will not hear anything. Not the fact that this one will work. Yes, and he is far away ... we definitely cannot get energy from France. And our TOKOMAK worked for many years. Yes, I worked for experiments, not for energy, but at least I had my own !!!
      1. Mik13
        Mik13 30 July 2020 07: 40 New
        +9
        Quote: NDR-791
        We made the Hadron Collider, we participated. And where is that collider now? After the emergency first start, you will not hear anything.

        So it is YOU personally not to hear anything. This is how the collider worked very effectively until 2018. And the list of discoveries is quite impressive. Recommend: https://old.elementy.ru/LHC/LHC_results

        Quote: NDR-791
        Not the fact that this one will work. Yes, and he is far away ... we definitely cannot get energy from France.
        В This In the reactor, the power part is completely absent. Precisely because the setup is experimental. The environment will be heated with a positive energy output instead of generating electricity)

        Quote: NDR-791
        And our TOKOMAK worked for many years. Yes, I worked for experiments, not for energy, but at least I had my own !!!
        The difference in the scale of these programs is like between a holiday fireworks display and a satellite navigation system.
      2. K-612-O
        K-612-O 30 July 2020 07: 43 New
        +3
        UVL has been operating for a long time and a new one is being built, and this is a completely different principle, on the compression of a fuel target with lasers.
        Nuclear physics is a very delicate thing, there is no need to jump for once or twice. And this will really be a breakthrough, the construction of the first safe industrial fusion.
      3. military_cat
        military_cat 30 July 2020 09: 32 New
        +2
        Quote: NDR-791
        And where is that collider now? Hear nothing after the emergency first start
        The Higgs boson was actually found. Completed the Standard Model.
    2. BARKAS
      BARKAS 30 July 2020 07: 26 New
      +6
      Rather, the value of such an event will be comparable to the invention of the steam engine and the internal combustion engine, it will be a new industrial revolution.
      1. Flamberg
        Flamberg 30 July 2020 07: 32 New
        0
        wink I think that at the time of its creation, the steam engine was as fantastic as manned space flight.
      2. forest1
        forest1 30 July 2020 08: 15 New
        0
        There will be no revolution. Due to the high cost of thermonuclear installations. There are not many of them on the horizon of our life for economic reasons. The transition to fusion can hardly be called a revolution, which, even if it does happen, will obviously stretch for centuries.
        1. BARKAS
          BARKAS 30 July 2020 08: 29 New
          +1
          it will obviously stretch for centuries.

          As the creators of this reactor declare, industrial use will not begin until the end of this early next century.
    3. K-612-O
      K-612-O 30 July 2020 07: 26 New
      0
      The value of this reactor is that it is the first reactor in the world that will supply energy to the grid, i.e., an industrial one.
      1. forest1
        forest1 30 July 2020 08: 18 New
        +3
        He's experimental. Its value is that it must be the first to achieve a stable and controlled response.
        1. military_cat
          military_cat 30 July 2020 09: 15 New
          -1
          A stable controlled response has long been achieved. The value of ITER is that for the first time it is planned to obtain an energy output in relation to energy consumption> 1.
          1. forest1
            forest1 30 July 2020 09: 18 New
            +2
            It is not stable if it does not pass at least a minute. These are all marketing and journalistic moves. They can't just keep her
            1. military_cat
              military_cat 30 July 2020 09: 21 New
              -1
              The KSTAR was held for 70 seconds.
              1. forest1
                forest1 30 July 2020 09: 54 New
                +1
                Clear. Well, they write that in Germany they managed to get a positive cost output. Wiki writes that the reactor should demonstrate the feasibility of industrial use. Probably it is worth dwelling on this for non-specialists.
                1. military_cat
                  military_cat 30 July 2020 10: 07 New
                  -1
                  Quote: forest1
                  Well, they write that in Germany they managed to get a positive cost output.
                  Where do they write?
                  1. forest1
                    forest1 31 July 2020 09: 04 New
                    0
                    In the media.
                    I watched an article about Germaniyu at work, right now I can't find it. Here they write about Russia, for example
                    https://rg.ru/2014/02/19/reakciya.html
                    1. military_cat
                      military_cat 31 July 2020 09: 43 New
                      -1
                      Quote: forest1
                      Here they write about Russia, for example

                      First:
                      success of scientists American Livermore Laboratory

                      Secondly, they were caught in fraud. Links:
                      1) https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2013/10/fusion-breakthrough-nif-uh-not-really
                      2) https://fire.pppl.gov/ICF_Scientific_Breakeven_LLNL2.pdf

                      This is why you need to know the source. Even in academic science, frauds appear, and in some murzilkas they can say anything at all.
                      1. forest1
                        forest1 31 July 2020 10: 08 New
                        0
                        Good. If this problem is really not solved. It really becomes clear how big the problem of positive energy yield is.
  4. Thrifty
    Thrifty 30 July 2020 07: 14 New
    +1
    But we could have built our own thermonuclear reactor on our own, otherwise we help them, and we get sanctions for that! Why did you climb? From the mind of abundance, or its obvious lack? For many years, we have been leading the world in this matter - TOKAMAK is our solution for studying thermonuclear reactions! And now, in third roles, are we giving bolts to the Europeans?
    1. K-612-O
      K-612-O 30 July 2020 07: 29 New
      +5
      There are a lot of experimental reactors, different ones, with laser crimping, tokomaks, etc., and the industrial one will be the first in the world and no country alone can handle it.
    2. EvilLion
      EvilLion 30 July 2020 08: 25 New
      +4
      Then, for several decades, the whole world has been doing this together. They just don't tweet about such things.
    3. Nastia makarova
      Nastia makarova 30 July 2020 09: 07 New
      -5
      and now we are leading otherwise no one would have called there
  5. tralflot1832
    tralflot1832 30 July 2020 07: 17 New
    0
    Something our key will deliver, without which this "shaitan" will not work. I remember an anecdote about the Vietnamese cosmonaut. On the control panels there will be signs "Don't touch with your hands."
  6. Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 30 July 2020 07: 20 New
    -5
    Huge costs ... unfortunately, so far no practical solution is foreseen. The deuterium-tritium reactor during operation generates neutron fluxes of fast neutrons of enormous density. Which create induced radiation in all materials of the reactor. Until it is turned on, it is safe. But as the operating hours increase, it will become more and more dangerous to work with this reactor. Physicists know this. But the locomotive was launched already in 92, how to stop it? The second generation of physicists has grown up around this topic. Grants, awards, degrees ...
    1. K-612-O
      K-612-O 30 July 2020 07: 38 New
      +5
      You can't do that! I almost choked on my tea! What a flux of fast neutrons, what induced radiation !!! In BNakh then they are where they go, and these reactors have been operating for more than a dozen years.
      The main yield of a controlled D-T reaction is X-ray, there is a yield of neutrons, but these are secondary fission neutrons with energies from 5 to 8 MeV, which are rapidly decelerated. And then the main share in general is thermal with an energy of 0,7-1,5 MeV, and not 10-15, as fast.
      1. Mountain shooter
        Mountain shooter 30 July 2020 07: 45 New
        0
        Quote: K-612-O
        The main yield of a controlled D-T reaction is X-ray, there is a yield of neutrons, but these are secondary fission neutrons with energies from 5 to 8 MeV, which are rapidly decelerated. And then the main share in general is thermal with an energy of 0,7-1,5 MeV, and not 10-15, as fast.

        There cannot be slow neutrons. The deuterium-tritium reaction has an alpha particle, a fast neutron and a neutrino at the output.
        The most promising are the so-called "neutron-free" reactions, since the neutron flux generated by thermonuclear fusion (for example, in the deuterium-tritium reaction) takes away a significant part of the power and generates induced radioactivity in the reactor design. The deuterium + helium-3 reaction is
        1. K-612-O
          K-612-O 30 July 2020 07: 49 New
          +4
          Don't confuse a bomb with a reactor, please!
          I participated, at least in one, but still an experiment with plasma and saw what was recorded at the output.
          1. Mountain shooter
            Mountain shooter 30 July 2020 07: 56 New
            +1
            Quote: K-612-O
            Don't confuse a bomb with a reactor, please!
            I participated, at least in one, but still an experiment with plasma and saw what was recorded at the output.

            Sorry ... well, that's the basics. 17 meV neutrons are the product of the deuterium-tritium reaction. I cited a quote ... and reactions in plasma with the release of neutrons
            can only be obtained in a very limited number of installations. And not all of our installations can boast of this. Could watch the "confinement" experiment ... with pure deuterium plasma. There is no provision for neutrons.
            1. K-612-O
              K-612-O 30 July 2020 08: 29 New
              0
              The neutron yield is not provided only for D-He3 and He3-B11. Here the share in the output and fluence is important, the energy spectrum in a real experiment and in the theory of textbooks of the 70s is different, but I do not argue there are 17,8, and 15, and 12 and 10 MeV, but the fractions are different, and again the fluence is all it is not very large and the share of secondary and thermal neutrons is greater.
        2. K-612-O
          K-612-O 30 July 2020 07: 53 New
          0
          So what is the energy fluence in the final construct?
          1. Mountain shooter
            Mountain shooter 30 July 2020 08: 09 New
            +1
            Quote: K-612-O
            So what is the energy fluence in the final construct?

            10 to 14 neutrons per cm2 / sec. With a thermonuclear power of 500 MW. So what? This is not a nuclear reactor, but the induced radiation will suffice. To make this whole economy dangerously radioactive in 10 years.
            And 500 MW of thermonuclear power is not much at all.
            1. K-612-O
              K-612-O 30 July 2020 08: 22 New
              +2
              Where did they get it from? In Dubna on BN up to 10 * 18-10 * 20, in VNIIFTRI on NG-150 practically the same, and everything is quite safe. And with such a fluence, my enterprise makes plasma-focus cameras and conventional generators. Neutron radiation interacts with matter in a completely different way than gamma.
              Even in conventional VVER reactors, both the output and the fluence are comparable, what does the whole world live on?
              RBMK is a dangerous thing, and in thermonuclear fusion the most important problem that must be solved is the stable long-term confinement of plasma.
              1. Mountain shooter
                Mountain shooter 30 July 2020 08: 58 New
                0
                Quote: K-612-O
                practically the same, and everything is quite safe. And with such a fluence, my enterprise makes plasma-focus cameras and conventional generators. Neutron radiation at all

                I can even "guess" your business. wink In a nuclear reactor around him - protection. And in thermonuclear there are many complex devices. Superconducting magnets, for example. This problem in ITER, with induced radiation, was identified by the head of this construction, at a conference in Baumanovka (invited) ... Probably, he was "not in the know" ... Recently at MEPhI "at school" they also discussed this ... A lot of energy is carried away by these neutrons. How would you use them? Blankets from 238 uranium were discussed. With all that it implies.
                1. K-612-O
                  K-612-O 30 July 2020 09: 46 New
                  +2
                  And what to guess, we are monopolists so to speak.
                  These discussions come from Mokojima yet, the French have a different point of view, they tend to slow down the netrons, rather than complete absorption. And now Bigo is in charge of the project. And Krasilnikov also did not express himself unequivocally on this matter. NIIKET manufactured and shipped beryllium-coated blankets.
    2. Doctor
      Doctor 30 July 2020 08: 43 New
      +2
      Huge costs ... unfortunately, so far no practical solution is foreseen.

      Here's the LJ of a specialist in thermonuclear medicine in general and ITER in particular

      https://tnenergy.livejournal.com/
  7. Ka-52
    Ka-52 30 July 2020 07: 24 New
    15
    for some reason, everyone began to arrange a bird noise for an international project and Russia's participation in it, having missed the very fact of a significant event - construction fusion reactor! After all, this is really a revolution, and not a joke about what the F-35 is worth and whether Lukashenka will win the elections
    1. Thrifty
      Thrifty 30 July 2020 07: 38 New
      -2
      Ka52 is a reactor, like many before it, EXPERIMENTAL, not INDUSTRIAL! So, this is a continuation of pushing water in a mortar, and not an exit to launch an INDUSTRIAL reactor!
      1. K-612-O
        K-612-O 30 July 2020 08: 11 New
        +2
        This is precisely the first experimental industrial reactor, as in its time in Obninsk.
      2. Ka-52
        Ka-52 30 July 2020 10: 23 New
        +1
        EXPERIMENTAL

        when I see a prototype or prototype, then I already understand that the technology for its creation exists. Back in 1960, Fedya Maimann created a ruby ​​laser on his knee. "Pushing water in a mortar" before him lasted about 50 years, starting with the work of A. Einstein. And now the laser is an ordinary thing, like a microwave
  8. GELEZNII_KAPUT
    GELEZNII_KAPUT 30 July 2020 07: 38 New
    +4
    The assembly of the world's largest thermonuclear experimental reactor ITER has begun in the south of France. It is planned to launch it and get the first plasma already in 2025. The project was created on the basis of an international agreement between the EU countries, China, Russia, India, the Republic of Korea, Japan and the United States. Its goal is to demonstrate that thermonuclear energy can be used on an industrial scale, according to The Guardian.

    The cost of the project is estimated at € 20 billion. The reactor will weigh 23 tons and will consist of millions of different components, including almost 000 tons of superconducting magnets and 3000 km of superconducting cables.

    The thermonuclear reactor project should allow demonstrating and researching thermonuclear technologies for their further use for peaceful and commercial purposes along with renewable energy sources. The head of ITER Bernard Bigot compared the assembly of the reactor with solving a three-dimensional puzzle and noted that this requires "the precision of a Swiss watch."
  9. gridasov
    gridasov 30 July 2020 07: 42 New
    0
    Lack of depth of knowledge is costly for a person!
    1. Dym71
      Dym71 30 July 2020 09: 01 New
      +1
      Quote: gridasov
      Lack of depth of knowledge is costly for a person!

      About how many wonderful discoveries
      Prepare the spirit of enlightenment
      And experience is the son of difficult mistakes,
      And genius is a friend of paradoxes,
      And chance is God the inventor.
      yes
      1. gridasov
        gridasov 30 July 2020 09: 49 New
        -2
        There is a methodology for working with big data based on variable and algorithmically related data. In simple terms, this means that there is a complex of other variations in the construction of a physical process in which the energy of elementary particles can be used. Therefore, the problem of all Tokomaks and accelerators is the impossibility of obtaining a direct process of obtaining the consumed energy, i.e. we have the collision energy, and we cannot obtain the potential difference in the form of electric magnetic energy by this method. Therefore, the problem is primarily in the technologies of consciousness and rational problem solving.
  10. Shkworen
    Shkworen 30 July 2020 07: 50 New
    +6
    ITER has more energy generation as a side activity, because its main task is to develop the technology of plasma confinement, the task of generating electricity is not there.

    Here the task is not just to hold the plasma for a long time, but to make the reaction self-sustained. A thermonuclear reactor is essentially a miniature sun that cannot be turned on / off so easily. If we cope with this, then we are guaranteed a source of unlimited energy.

    After ITER, they will already start building a prototype of a commercial thermonuclear reactor, in which the technologies worked out in ITER will be applied, according to plans, construction should begin after 2050, and the launch is approximately 2070 :)

    And so, ITER is now the main engine of science on the planet, because many technologies and materials have to be created from scratch and this is a rare case when humanity is able to unite to solve such a large-scale task :)
    1. EvilLion
      EvilLion 30 July 2020 08: 28 New
      0
      The sun burns ordinary hydrogen, it is normal, on Earth you cannot create such pressures, so that with ordinary hydrogen at some 15 million degrees, a reaction can be carried out.
    2. gridasov
      gridasov 30 July 2020 09: 54 New
      -1
      You can create reversible flows of matter from which you can extract potential energy. But stability cannot be obtained in the forced process of generating energy for the plasma. In general, one must understand what plasma is. Moreover, gentlemen do not realize that there is a limiting energy level when a breakdown to the ground occurs. This requires fundamentally different induction devices.
      1. Shkworen
        Shkworen 30 July 2020 10: 13 New
        +1
        For this, a reactor is being built, in order to work out the technologies, as they work out, then it is already possible to think about commercial applications, many technologies are created here from scratch :)

        But in general, in the field of thermonuclear energy, a rather tight competition has already formed, and competition is already an engine of progress :)
        Habré had a series of articles on this topic :)

        In particular, for example, in the United States since 2013, there is a startup called Tri Alpha Energy, which is considered to be the closest to the creation of a full-fledged thermonuclear reactor. They hire the best of the best in plasma physics. Any requests and wishes without restriction, but there is a strict condition to make a breakthrough in this area every 3 years. In addition, there are many startups in different countries, even we have one startup in Novosibirsk, unfortunately I don’t remember the name, but nevertheless, they also have their own original idea of ​​the reactor prototype.

        So the race has begun, whoever is the first to succeed will collect all the cream, some experts already predict the appearance of the first commercial thermonuclear reactors in the 2040 - 2050 region.
        1. gridasov
          gridasov 30 July 2020 10: 22 New
          -2
          The race dragged on and smoothly turned into an ineffective investment of money
          1. Shkworen
            Shkworen 30 July 2020 10: 24 New
            0
            in this area too much haste, because this is an unexplored area, much remains to be discovered and invented :)
            1. gridasov
              gridasov 30 July 2020 10: 30 New
              -1
              The question is not in a rush, but in the fact that all options for the development of technology for obtaining energy and creating devices have not been considered. The very ideology of the decisions made can be said to be futile
  11. Indifferent
    Indifferent 30 July 2020 08: 06 New
    -4
    Clever nuclear scientists of the old, Kurchatov generation, argue that the theory of nuclear fusion is such that it does not allow the installation of controlled thermonuclear fusion on Earth. The future belongs to BN reactors. The facts are also very stubborn. They have been building for 70 years and will never be built. The installation does not want to work. So another "dough sawing"! As in the joke:
    - Dad, I solved the equation that no one could solve for so long!
    - What have you done, son? How will you support your family? Your grandfather has been solving this equation all his life. I've been solving this equation all my life. And you ruined everything.
    1. gridasov
      gridasov 30 July 2020 10: 06 New
      0
      And Kurchatov scientists think correctly! Therefore, I repeat once again that the solutions are in the use of banal Water. It is the carrier of a stream from which thermonuclear energy can be extracted.
  12. Ross xnumx
    Ross xnumx 30 July 2020 08: 46 New
    +4
    The fusion reactor ITER is being assembled in France. The work involves specialists from France itself, other EU countries, as well as from Russia, the USA, Japan, China, South Korea, Kazakhstan, India. Many companies from other countries of the world are involved in the project.

    When there is a common goal, it cannot be otherwise,

    Here's an example. The technology of manufacturing and installation of self-supporting insulated wire (self-supporting insulated wire) has been known since the late 70s of the last century. Thanks to France, which is tired of repairing overhead lines in the colonial countries where there are "many, many wild monkeys", a wire appeared that excludes breaks and "short circuit".
    In the early 2000s, this installation technology came to the great expanses of Russia and gained such popularity that the domestic industry itself switched to the manufacture of wires and accessories for installation. Needless to say, not everything worked out right away. "Piercing" - did not pierce, the "fuses" did not have tightness and broke during the "crimping", the insulation (cross-linked polyethylene) was "dull" or did not hold onto the aluminum conductor. But gradually everything worked out.
    I think that the construction of a thermonuclear reactor by joint efforts will make it possible to reduce the negative, those disadvantages that are inherent in thermonuclear energy.
    https://plusiminusi.ru/plyusy-i-minusy-termoyadernoj-energetiki/
    1. your1970
      your1970 30 July 2020 11: 07 New
      +1
      Our electricians' night shifts have become relaxed. Previously, every night from cliff to cliff non-stop, but now they even manage to sleep at night
    2. Lexus
      Lexus 30 July 2020 22: 15 New
      +3
      I think that the construction of a thermonuclear reactor by joint efforts will make it possible to reduce the negative, those disadvantages that are inherent in thermonuclear energy.

      hi In principle, there is nothing wrong with international cooperation. Provided that it is mutually beneficial and will give Russia full access to research results and technologies in demand. Everything should be wisely and in moderation, and not the way it happened with the ISS - our American modules are not allowed into the American modules, leaving behind them only the functionality of the servants, or rather plumbers, before they were taxi drivers.
  13. Ilshat
    Ilshat 30 July 2020 08: 48 New
    +1
    Russia, among other things, will supply 8 gyrotrons - 170 GHz with a power of 1 MW, a pulse duration of up to 1000 seconds, an almost continuous mode ...
    The most cutting edge ...

    PS: And also busbars, resistors, etc.
    But this is closer to the general industrial ...
  14. Hog
    Hog 30 July 2020 08: 48 New
    0
    I hope everything will work out and after the 25th year they will begin to create industrial versions of the reactor.
  15. sergo1914
    sergo1914 30 July 2020 08: 54 New
    +3
    It is necessary to consecrate. Just in case. Add the ROC to the list of participants.
  16. APASUS
    APASUS 30 July 2020 09: 08 New
    -6
    When the West cannot live without the Russians, they perfectly remove sanctions, turn a blind eye to Putin, can negotiate and get along !!
  17. Gate68
    Gate68 30 July 2020 09: 41 New
    -1
    It will be a very expensive laboratory at best. At worst, France will have a nuclear test site
  18. Mikhail3
    Mikhail3 30 July 2020 09: 44 New
    0
    Interesting. At the moment, the magnetic ring scheme is not popular, to put it mildly. Because of its colossal danger. Now, they seem to have come to the conclusion that it is necessary to ignite the reaction in a magnetic bottle, so that if the reaction goes out of control, the monstrously hot working medium would be extinguished from contact with the cold environment. If this is a classic ring, then the stake is again on a large mass of plasma (however, at operating temperatures it will no longer be plasma, but the devil knows what, I don't know the name), and in case of problems the broads will be simply indescribable. The French are at risk ...
    1. EvilLion
      EvilLion 30 July 2020 10: 19 New
      +2
      I understand everything, of course, but in a thermonuclear reactor there is no constant presence of hundreds of tons of fuel, as at a nuclear power plant.
      1. Mikhail3
        Mikhail3 30 July 2020 12: 08 New
        -2
        Fuel at a nuclear power plant is just a mass of "dirty" uranium, all it can do is heat up. All accidents at the nuclear power plant are steam pops and dust emissions. With proper organization, all this can be easily localized and extinguished. Can you imagine what a mass of several hundred kilograms of a substance heated to several MILLION degrees can do? That's what bahn, then bahn ...
        1. EvilLion
          EvilLion 30 July 2020 12: 22 New
          0
          Fuel at nuclear power plants contains a huge amount of fission products. But what nafig hundreds of kilograms of matter heated to millions of degrees, if some drop of fuel is used there, which is heated by a laser, I do not understand.
          1. Mikhail3
            Mikhail3 30 July 2020 12: 31 New
            -1
            Yes, not a drop) A drop is in the TOKAMAK demonstrators, which were built before, for pure research. And now they will spin large masses in order to reach the required temperatures and pressures, purely with lasers, this cannot be done, you need to use movement and impact. The output power will be enormous. So is the risk. High energy energy is a constant risk. And then the energy of ultra-high energies ...
            1. Ilshat
              Ilshat 30 July 2020 13: 06 New
              0
              And now they will spin large masses
              These "large" masses are no more than 1 (one) gram.
              Reading at least something kind of breaks, right?
              which is heated by a laser
              The laser does not heat anything up.
              Two RF heating systems are used, separate for electrons and ions, and a neutral atom injector.
              1. Mikhail3
                Mikhail3 31 July 2020 12: 16 New
                -1
                God ... you read anything other than "ten interesting facts" ...
        2. military_cat
          military_cat 31 July 2020 12: 35 New
          0
          Quote: Mikhail3
          All accidents at the nuclear power plant are steam pops and dust emissions.

          And also smoke power unit, underflooding cooling circuit and negative growth the reactivity margin is below the psychologically important mark.
  19. rocket757
    rocket757 30 July 2020 09: 47 New
    +2
    They say about a bad world, not without reason, that it is better than war !!!
    Cooperation in such a complex area is worth a lot. It is not worth while to divide, sort, who and how .... there are still many things to do, the results will show.
  20. Jurkovs
    Jurkovs 30 July 2020 10: 17 New
    -2
    Judging by the obvious acceleration of work on fast neutrons, a closed fuel cycle, and the beginning of talks about a thorium reactor, no one believes in controlled thermonuclear fusion. Therefore, they have been building this reactor for more than 15 years and cannot complete it in any way.
    1. EvilLion
      EvilLion 30 July 2020 12: 24 New
      +1
      Believe it or not, they were already engaged in fusion in the 70s. This does not interfere with nuclear power plants with a closed cycle, they have a lot of fuel, and still dozens of years of operation.
  21. awdrgy
    awdrgy 30 July 2020 21: 07 New
    0
    I hope our specialists will lay a four-thread there, just in case
  22. Chever
    Chever 30 July 2020 21: 37 New
    +1
    What can I say, cool. Good luck to the specialists
  23. Alex823
    Alex823 30 July 2020 23: 44 New
    0
    For the Russian Federation, this is wasted money, this installation will not work as it should. The calculations are based on theory, which itself is based on a bunch of tolerances, stretches, renormalizations, paradoxes, and the like. Maybe within its framework, on its principles, they are true, but she herself is not true.