Military Review

Disputes about the loss of aircraft and pilots during the Great Patriotic War

Disputes about the loss of aircraft and pilots during the Great Patriotic War

Until now, heated disputes are going on about precisely the military losses during the Great Patriotic War. At the same time, such gentlemen who operate with myths from the category "The Red Army showered the enemy with the corpses of its soldiers, and therefore won, also make their contribution to these disputes." Such statements are still being seriously discussed in some well-known media outlets and even given priority.

It is much more important, when considering the ratio of losses, to operate with archival documents, including reports from the fronts, headquarters data, etc.

This story examines the issue of the ratio of losses in aircraft during the war. TacticMedia channel discusses the number of aircraft lost by the Luftwaffe and the Soviet air force fleet from 1941 to 1945. Discussed are the discrepancies that are associated, among other things, with the accounting difference aviation losses. And this difference between the methods and rules of accounting in the USSR and Nazi Germany was quite significant. The issue of the number of dead and missing aircraft crew members is also being discussed.

Plot on TacticMedia about estimated losses of aircraft and pilots:

Photos used:
Wikipedia / US Air Force photo (National Museum of the United States Air Force)
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  1. Grandfather
    Grandfather 30 July 2020 05: 35
    yes ... write fifteen lines, and insert a vidyahu from "youtube" ... cool topic ...
    1. Sling cutter
      Sling cutter 30 July 2020 07: 09
      Quote: Dead Day
      yes ... write fifteen lines, and insert a vidyahu from "youtube" ... cool topic ...

      Colleague hi drinks , make a discount for those who cannot read! Turn on the sound and listen! good
      1. Lexus
        Lexus 30 July 2020 14: 37
        discount for those who can't read!

        On them "litter-tv" pours "discount" in a continuous stream. wassat
    2. lucul
      lucul 30 July 2020 08: 41
      yes ... write fifteen lines, and insert a vidyahu from "youtube" ... cool topic ...

      The trend is now such))) Young people now rarely read something, everything that is more than one paragraph, for them - "a lot of bukaff")))
      Although the topic is complex and debatable, and one video will not get rid of here ...
      1. Igoresha
        Igoresha 30 July 2020 12: 24
        one plate would be enough)
        1. CALL.
          CALL. 26 August 2020 22: 11
          You are missing an important one. For those who are in the subject, one tablet would be enough. But people who have read about Hartmans and Barkhorns on some jellyfish need the most complete information. It is very good that they began to make such films.
  2. Pavel57
    Pavel57 30 July 2020 12: 26
    Who would have compiled an information model of war day after day, taking into account the contradictions of all sources of information.
  3. certero
    certero 30 July 2020 12: 27
    In short, our content had poor training and the technique was worse. Therefore, the ratio of 1 to 10 for downed aircraft was not uncommon. But the hostilities must be assessed as a whole, and after the Battle of Kursk, ours made serious conclusions.
    The conclusion is simple - the Germans in the air were still better than ours.
    1. lucul
      lucul 30 July 2020 12: 31
      The conclusion is simple - the Germans in the air were still better than ours.

      5-year pilot training versus 3-6 month courses for ours is quite expected. Only later, when the experienced pilots were knocked out, everything became equal.
    2. Nikolai Korovin
      Nikolai Korovin 30 July 2020 12: 59
      Yes, before Stalingrad. Under Stalingrad, the balance of power changed. Paulus requested 750 tons of cargo per day via the air bridge, Goering promised 500, about 100 tons were transferred - for the 300-strong group - a drop in the sea. Despite the fact that there were enough transport "Junkers" - only at the Tatsinskaya station, the tank corps - forgot, under whose command - captured 300 of them. German fighter aircraft were unable to provide sufficient cover for the air bridge.

      In the future, our advantage grew - though, it must be admitted, largely due to the numerical advantage, but also the quality of the aircraft. Both the Messerschmitts of the new modifications and the FV-190, having a fairly strong armament, nevertheless, were inferior to the Yak-3, Yak-9 and La-5 both on turns and in vertical maneuver. The quality of the personnel has also leveled off. Germany increased the production of aircraft, but could not keep up with the USSR, although in the first half of 1941 the production was approximately the same. In 1944, our industry - offhand, I don't remember the exact numbers, there is no time to look now - produced 2-2.5 times more aircraft. Not less than 30-35 thousand. Well, and + several thousand under Lend-Lease.

      In addition, the Germans were forced to keep a fairly significant part of their aviation in the west - the onslaught of 4-engine American and British bomb carriers, which were hardly vulnerable to German fighter aircraft, was growing. But most of it was still on our front, although the density of concentration of fighter aircraft in the west was, of course, higher at first. But not in 1945. Despite the rapid advance of the Anglo-Americans, the Germans removed all forces, including aircraft, from the west and threw them to the east. As for the 262 shot down Hartmann's planes against 68 Kozhedub - this is still, apparently, the peculiarities of the counting method. If Hartmann were counted according to the Soviet method, then he would hardly have scored significantly more than 100.

      It should be borne in mind that Hartmann was a free shooter, and Kozhedub was first a regiment commander, and then a division commander. The fact is that all German aviation was ground up - for the battle for Berlin the Germans, having exposed all other sections, assembled 1500 aircraft, and from our side, if I am not mistaken, about 8000, while other sections of the front were not completely exposed. A German plane that dared to appear in the sky over Berlin, as a rule, quickly went astray.

      It must, of course, be admitted that the Germans apparently shot down and destroyed more of our aircraft on the ground. But here it is difficult to overestimate the contribution of the first weeks of the war, and especially the first day, on which the officially recognized losses amounted to 1200 vehicles. Later, the ratio of losses leveled off.
    3. Bashibuzuk1
      Bashibuzuk1 1 August 2020 19: 08
      The outcome of the war showed who was better. I advise you to simply read once again "The Sky of War" by A. Pokryshkin. 1941-1943 (before the famous battle for the sky of the Kuban), the German Air Force was superior to the Red Army Air Force, but only at the expense of losses in June-July 1941.
      Nowadays it is fashionable to scoff at the dead pilots. But you need to understand - flying often in the minority - they won air battles or disrupted the fulfillment of the tasks of the Luftwaffe. And the calculations: there is an archive (how many pilots have prepared, how many of them are left, minus the wounded and the disabled). And to make up for an hour ..... German Air Force -30% non-combat losses. Why aren't they moaning?
  4. certero
    certero 30 July 2020 13: 22
    Quote: Nikolai Korovin
    Later, the ratio of losses leveled off.

    It seems like I made a short extract of the video especially for you. Look, though, because you are retelling common delusions. Tacticmedia is very well narrated on the basis of documents on both sides.
  5. Engineer
    Engineer 30 July 2020 23: 52
    From the 39th minute I experienced a slight shock
    Combat losses of the Luftwaffe in 1944 on the Votochny front - 2557 aircraft
    Combat losses of the USSR in 1944 8272
  6. Force multiplier
    Force multiplier 31 July 2020 00: 15
    Mikhail Timin has been dealing with the issue for more than a dozen years, writing books and articles, but it seems that he does not understand the subject. (In principle, like 99% of the authors of the site where he publishes his works, commentators there are often more knowledgeable than the authors). Although, most likely, this thesis about 1 in 10 is a deliberate provocation in order to stir up interest in your channel. It is hard to believe that a person, having studied such a number of documents for so many years, even in the absence of an analytical mindset, can come to such absurd conclusions.
    1. Stas57
      Stas57 31 July 2020 13: 29
      Well, of course, he warms up, especially Gorbach, talking about the losses of aviation on the Duga, reaching in some places up to 1k10, and Latkin, talking about the losses of naval aviation, and Miroslav Morozov about the same, and Kuznetsov and Rastrenin about the losses of aviation from anti-aircraft guns 2.0 and 3.7. Everyone is lying and slandering on purpose, and it is known that we took Berlin on July 5, 1941.
    2. Cartalon
      Cartalon 31 July 2020 13: 43
      Well, refute with something other than voice statements, tell Timin about his delusions
      1. Sergey Medvedev
        Sergey Medvedev 8 August 2020 15: 41
        Quote: Cartalon
        Well, refute with something other than voice statements, tell Timin about his delusions

        I say. Timin is lying. I counted our planes, 130. German ones - in passing, "more than a hundred thousand." And where is the registration of captured aircraft? French and others. Where are the Air Forces of Italy, Romania, Hungary, Finland, Slovakia and Croatia? Grants are fulfilled by Mr. Timin.
        1. Cartalon
          Cartalon 8 August 2020 15: 47
          The Italian Air Force over the Mediterranean Sea, the Romanian Air Force in Romania, the Finnish Air Force in Finland, it’s a stupid joke about captured aircraft, as I understand you were not given a grant.
          1. Sergey Medvedev
            Sergey Medvedev 8 August 2020 16: 33
            You also write that the Finnish Air Force in Finland is against Finland. Or who?
            Romanian Air Force against Chernomor (such a guy). And the Italian Air Force against the Mediterranean (FIG knows who he is). The Wehrmacht of French tanks delivered 4 units. Did you give the planes to the British? Not a joke at all.
  7. certero
    certero 2 August 2020 08: 25
    Quote: Bashibuzuk1
    I advise you to simply read once again "The Sky of War" by A. Pokryshkin. 1941-1943 (before the famous battle for the sky of the Kuban), the German Air Force was superior to the Red Army Air Force, but only at the expense of losses in June-July 1941.

    Advise yourself. I read these books back in the last century. These are memoirs, not documents, which are now available from both sides and show a sad picture for our air force.
  8. Force multiplier
    Force multiplier 8 August 2020 21: 32
    Since the topic is still alive, I will expand on my initial comment.
    The very approach to comparing losses in a video is fundamentally wrong and too superficial. In a similar way, one can compare the losses of the USSR Air Force during combat missions for all reasons with the losses of the Mujahideen Air Force (they had some kind of Cessna Cessna) for all reasons in Afghanistan (and even with deliberately incomplete data on both sides, as is the case with 1941-1945), get an even wilder ratio than 1d10, and based on the ratio obtained, draw any conclusions, including about the effectiveness of the Air Force of the opposing sides.
    Personnel losses. Obviously, in a long air campaign, the air force of the side leading the air offensive suffers more losses than the air force of the defending side. This happens because (simplifying) that the pilots of the defending side jump out with a parachute and make forced landings on their territory. they do not need to try to reach their bases tens and hundreds of kilometers from the target on damaged aircraft, etc. (An example is the ratio of the losses of the British Fighter Command and the Luftwaffe during the BZB and the same ratio from the second half 41) If both sides conduct offensive operations, then the side that makes more sorties and whose air force has a numerical superiority (example - ratio of all losses of RAF (not only fighters) and LW during BZB and Blitz)
  9. Dmitry PNR
    Dmitry PNR 17 August 2020 12: 31
    Interesting video. The calculation of military losses is still waiting for its researchers. In favor of Mikhail's opinion, I can cite one fact that for some reason I have never met in such discussions. The main combat unit of the Luftwaffe fighter aircraft was a group of 30-40 aircraft. On the Soviet-German front, there were 15-20 groups at the same time. Research on this topic ( In Soviet aviation, the main unit was a regiment, roughly corresponding to the Luftwaffe group. Here - Aces of Stalin / Thomas Polak and Christopher Shoura / - more than 230 Soviet air fighter regiments are mentioned. Yes, some of them belonged to the air defense or the Navy, and did not participate in hostilities throughout the war, others were deployed in the Far East. However, most of them fought on the Soviet-German front. It turns out that 15 Luftwaffe regiments in 1941-42 dominated the air, in 1943 they fought equal battles, and in 1944-45 they tried to resist 150 regiments of Soviet fighter aviation. Hence the phenomenon of low losses of German aviation, and the phenomenon of high combat scores of their "experts".