In Poland: the Warsaw battle with the Bolsheviks was of great importance for humanity

The Battle of Warsaw in 1920 is one of the key episodes of the Soviet-Polish war, which the Poles call the "Polish-Bolshevik". It was the largest war in a series of local conflicts that began after the end of the First World War and the collapse of four empires - Russian, Ottoman, German and Austro-Hungarian.

An interactive project is dedicated to this war and the battle of Warsaw bitwa1920.gov.pl., which was created jointly by Polskie Radio and Niepodległą.

The project tells about the Soviet-Polish war from the point of view, officially adopted today by Warsaw. In particular, it says that after the victory over internal opponents by the early 1920s, the Bolsheviks focused on Poland.

Soviet troops with the forces of two fronts attacked from Ukraine and Belarus in the direction of Warsaw. The offensive went so successfully that, according to Polish historians, Lenin decided to take the Polish capital with the forces of the Western Front alone, and then strike at Berlin. The task of the Southwestern Front included the capture of Lvov, followed by an exit to Budapest and Vienna.

Having occupied Poland, according to Polish researchers, the Red Army was supposed to make it another Soviet republic. For this, the puppet Provisional Revolutionary Committee of Poland (Polrevkom) was already formed, which included the Polish Bolsheviks.

Actually, the existence of not too peaceful plans in the Soviet government indirectly confirms the words of Marshal Tukhachevsky:

The road to the world conflagration leads through the corpse of White Poland. We will bring happiness and peace to the working people on our bayonets. To the west!

On the other hand, it is quite possible that the aspirations of the Red Army were limited to the liberation of Western Ukraine and Western Belarus, whose territory Poland inadvertently "grabbed" after gaining independence. Be that as it may, but the crushing defeat of the Soviet troops by the Poles did not allow these plans to come true.

British diplomat Edgar Vincent d'Abernon, who at that time was chairman of the Inter-Allied Mission to Poland, considered the Battle of Warsaw one of the main events of the world stories:

If the Battle of Warsaw ended in victory for the Bolsheviks, there would be a turning point in European history, for there is not the slightest doubt that with the fall of Warsaw, Central Europe would be open to communist propaganda and Soviet invasion.

Of course, the views of the Soviet military-political leadership were very far from pacifist, but at that time none of the countries of Central and Eastern Europe, including Poland, were distinguished by their peacefulness. After the collapse of four empires in this vast territory from the Arctic Circle to the Mediterranean Sea, a vacuum was formed in which each nation tried to realize its national interests at any cost, regardless of the interests of its neighbors.

Comments

[Ryaruav]

if not for Tukhachevsky, a little later, pulling up the reserves and the rear, they would have crushed as there was nothing to do, just as always they wanted to cheer almost blitz

[Same lech]

If it were not for the help of the French, they would have defeated Pilsudski for sure ... as always, the French slipped a pig into the Red Army.

The de facto commander of the Polish army was the French General Weygand, the head of the Anglo-French military mission in Warsaw. Several hundred French officers with extensive experience in World War II became advisers in the Polish army,

https://topwar.ru/82483-sovetsko-polskaya-voyna-1920-goda.html

[svp67]

Quote: Ryaruav

if not for tukhachevsky

Quote: The same LYOKHA

If not for the help of the French

If only ... a weak argument

[Pereira]

The reason for the defeat is not military, but ideological.
Tukhachevsky rushed forward also because the ideologists were waiting for the workers' communist uprising in Polish cities. And if so, why pull - it is necessary to attack.
And they waited because of the incorrectly interpreted phrase from the "Manifesto of the Communist Party" - "The proletarian has no fatherland." And it, as it turned out, is.
By the way, the commissars expected the same uprising in June 1941 from the German workers.

[Vasyan1971]

Quote: Pereira

By the way, the commissars expected the same uprising in June 1941 from the German workers.

And Hitler also hoped for a similar thing, but against Stalin. And he also miscalculated ...

[Pereira]

Professional ideologists are the scum of civilization.
And it doesn't matter what badges they wear on the lapels of lapserdaks - with a swastika, with a sickle and a hammer, three (hello, Nastenka) or with staples.
They are all liars by definition.

[Same lech]

If only ... a weak argument

What article is this and the argument ... The defeat of Tukhachevsky in Poland has been studied far and wide ... information and documents are enough to study this round of history.

in 1920 Charles de Gaulle, who turned 30, took part in the rank of major (on the Polish side, as a member of the French military mission) in the Soviet-Polish war, where the Red Army was commanded by 27-year-old commander Mikhail Tukhachevsky

The fate of these people in this campaign is interesting.
https://pikabu.ru/story/peripetii_sudbyi_de_goll_i_tukhachevskiy_5058734

[Terenin]

after the end of the First World War and the collapse of four empires - Russian, Ottoman, German and Austro-Hungarian.

And, the Russian empire was de facto restored. The rest are not.

[Dr. Frankenstucker]

well, yes, well, yes ... if not for Tukhachevsky, if not for the French, if not for typhus, if not for radio interception, if not for something else ... then, of course, they would have taken Warsaw.
The abundance of these "woulds" only confuses.

[Lopatov]

But in the end they took it, didn't they?
And the lands illegally taken from neighbors were returned.
So it goes...
How is Bismarck doing? "Russians always come for their money"

[Dr. Frankenstucker]

Quote: Spade

How is Bismarck doing? "Russians always come for their money"

Bismarck has no such thing, comrade Lopatov.
Poor chancellor, how many fake quotes have been denigrating his name. The trouble.

[Lopatov]

Quote: Dr. Frankenshtuzer

Bismarck has no such thing, comrade Lopatov

This is so far only your unsubstantiated statement.

And the Soviet troops in Warsaw and the return of the territories of Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine are a reinforced concrete fact.

[Liam]

Quote: Spade

Quote: Dr. Frankenshtuzer
Bismarck has no such thing, comrade Lopatov

This is so far only your unsubstantiated statement.

LOPATOV, unknowingly, you are trying to use a demagogic device, which educated people know as Argumentum ad ignorantiam.In your awkward performance, it looks funny.
PySy.This quote is a fake used by uneducated people.

[Lopatov]

Quote: Liam

LOPATOV, out of ignorance you are trying to use a demagogic technique, which educated people know as Argumentum ad ignorantiam. Your clumsy performance looks funny.
PySy.This quote is a fake used by uneducated people.

Can you confirm your words with something?
Or "gentlemen take their word for it .... and then the card went to me ..." (c)

So far from you, too, some unfounded statements.

[Dr. Frankenstucker]

This is so far only your unsubstantiated statement.

Enchanting. So bring a source, and then we will put an end to malicious slander against the Russophile Bismarck. Please, don't need a photo of a billboard from a Moscow street as proof - the focus group of the Ministry of Culture is clearly not aware of who Bismarck was in general. The image of a gray-haired old man in a Pickelhaub saying flattering things to Russia - ah! it's so romantic and uplifting)

[Lopatov]

Quote: Dr. Frankenshtuzer

Enchanting. So bring the source

It is you who say that "Bismarck has no such thing"
Why should I seek confirmation of your arguments?
Take the trouble to do it yourself

[2 Level Advisor]

Doing sophistry, Lopatov, how can you find something that is not? Show you emptiness? Well, imagine that you were shown it ..
But if there is, it's easy to find - just the text of the speech, an excerpt from a book, works, etc.
I searched last year and did not find confirmation of these "advertised" quotes ..

[Lopatov]

Quote: Level 2 Advisor

Doing sophistry,

No
There is a statement, it should be supported by facts. And not try to send your opponent to look for them himself.

[Catfish]

"If only mushrooms were growing in the mouth, it would be not a mouth, but a whole vegetable garden." (Russian folk proverb).

[Revolver]

Quote: Ryaruav

if not for Tukhachevsky, a little later, pulling up the reserves and the rear, they would have crushed as there was nothing to do, just as always they wanted to cheer almost blitz

Tukhachevsky about ... l the world revolution, at least the European one. And maybe it's for the best. Because if everything went according to plan, then the center of the USSR would not be Moscow, but either Berlin or Paris, and most likely German would become the state language. And Russia, accordingly, would be a bearish corner in this USSR.

[tihonmarine]

for there is not the slightest doubt that with the fall of Warsaw, Central Europe would have been open to communist propaganda and Soviet invasion.

Of course there is no doubt. And there is also little doubt that Hitler would then have attacked Poland.

[svp67]

Quote: tihonmarine

And there is also little doubt that Hitler would then have attacked Poland

So I imagine a retired "sergeant major" who decided to personally attack Poland ...
Have you been confused for a year?

[tihonmarine]

Quote: svp67

Have you been confused for a year?

And what to confuse, if they occupied Warsaw and Poland, it would become part of the USSR. So in 1939, Hitler could no longer attack Poland. If Edgar Vincent d'Abernon can say "if only it were," then I say the same.

[svp67]

Quote: tihonmarine

So in 1939, Hitler could no longer attack Poland.

In this case, Germany, with a high probability, would be a socialist and allied USSR

[tihonmarine]

Quote: svp67

In this case, Germany, with a high probability, would be a socialist and allied USSR

It would be nice, but the card is not on our side.

[svp67]

Quote: tihonmarine

It would be nice, but the card is not on our side.

Military happiness is changeable

[Lopatov]

Quote: svp67

Military happiness is changeable

It is not "military happiness" here, but militant incompetence.

[svp67]

Quote: Spade

It is not "military happiness" here, but militant incompetence.

There, both sides showed it, but this time happiness was on the side of the Poles.

[Lopatov]

Quote: svp67

There, both sides showed

It's just that the Bolsheviks had more incompetence.

Poles and French were aware that no conscience can replace knowledge

[boris epstein]

Moreover, a revolution took place in Germany itself in November 1918.

[Revolver]

Quote: svp67

So I imagine a retired "sergeant major",

In honor of what holiday did you raise Adolf in the rank? He was just a corporal. And finally, if the Red Army had captured Poland, then in Germany the local communists would have risen again, and with real military support from the east, they would have won. And then France, Italy, Spain, in general the USSR for the whole of Europe. England would probably have sat out on the islands, across the strait and the fleet, or maybe not. So Adolf would quietly and peacefully paint watercolors, or waving a pick in Siberia if he rock the boat with his National Socialism.

[Dr. Frankenstucker]

Recalls Comrade Bender's speech in Vasyuki) Intergalactic proletarian revolution under the banner of Marx's beard.

[svp67]

Quote: Nagan

In honor of what holiday did you raise Adolf in the rank?

To be honest, I lowered it great ...

The fact that Hitler was only a corporal at the end of the war is usually mentioned. Yes, it is, but this fact applies only to the period of the First World War.
And in 1919, the army command sent Adolf Hitler to a weeklong campaign of agitators to work against the communists, after which he was promoted to officer [lieutenant] of education. Adolf Hitler (1889-1945).

Quote: Nagan

So Adolf would quietly and peacefully paint watercolors, or waving a pick in Siberia if he rock the boat with his National Socialism.

I think that he could find himself in the world you painted

[AllBiBek]

And again Poland is trying to prove at least to itself its importance for something at least a hundred years ago.

It turns out - as always.

But the mice do not lose heart, and the number of cacti is not diminishing.

[svp67]

Quote: AllBiBek

And again Poland is trying to prove at least to itself its importance for something at least a hundred years ago.

And nevertheless, it is true, if the Red Army had not stopped near Warsaw, the corridor to Germany, seething with revolution, would have been hacked, which means that the chance that the communists would have won in it would have increased dramatically. And who knows how the history of the whole world would have gone then

[AllBiBek]

There, this "seething revolution in Germany" lasted for several weeks in several lands, and she was strangled by their own forces.

In the States, blacks with a large scale of casualties and destruction have been raging for twice as long.

Would move on - history, of course, does not tolerate personal inclinations, but - further France, which has not yet grown so fat from German reparations, and half of the male population of which has real combat experience, Britain is in the same state, and the USA with the economy is at a maximum production promotion of everything.

They would have strangled and not noticed. Even mobilization would not have to be announced.

[svp67]

Quote: AllBiBek

There, this "seething revolution in Germany" lasted for several weeks in several lands, and she was strangled by their own forces.

Back in 1933, the German Communist Party had more than a million members ...

[AllBiBek]

And how is it there when it comes to the early 20s?
There, on the territory of the former Republic of Ingushetia, in quantitative terms, the Social Revolutionaries rule. And on all the fragments.

[svp67]

Quote: AllBiBek

And how is it there when it comes to the early 20s?

And the fact that there were enough people of communist and pro-communist views there

[Roman_vh]

Here, after all, you would also be present. It turned out how it happened. And the fact that the Poles were lucky does not implore the significance of their victory. Both for Poland itself and for Europe as a whole.
So I'm not very Poles, but I will not argue against the facts.

[Thrifty]

I hope that conclusions should be drawn from history - in any war, Russia must defend only its lands and its people! Let the rest decide their own fate without us. You can't help them, nothing good will come of it!

[apro]

Quote: Thrifty

in any war, Russia must defend only its lands and its people!

And nothing that Poland at that time the aggressor in relation to Soviet Russia?

[AllBiBek]

You have too much in this phrase - "at that time" and "Soviet".

Poland is, in principle, an aggressor always and in all directions. This is the breed.

[Revolver]

Quote: AllBiBek

Poland is, in principle, an aggressor always and in all directions. This is the breed.

"Poland is a greedy hyena of Europe" - Winston Churchill

[svp67]

Quote: apro

And nothing that Poland at that time the aggressor in relation to Soviet Russia?

Not so much to Soviet Russia, as to the states allied with it, Soviet Ukraine and Soviet Belarus

[Pereira]

Well, Duc, Poland is our land. Her ancestors honestly conquered it.

[Dr. Frankenstucker]

Russia must defend only its lands and its people!

and how does this look geographically in relation to 1920? Do we consider "ours" based on the borders of the Republic of Ingushetia or the RSFSR?

[AllBiBek]

At that time, we consider territories with a predominance of the Russian-speaking population in cities to be "ours".

However, it is the same at the current time.

Well, whoever speaks Russian in the cities at home in the circle of household members is the second thing.

[Kostadinov]

If the Battle of Warsaw ended in victory for the Bolsheviks, there would be a turning point in European history, for there is not the slightest doubt that with the fall of Warsaw, Central Europe would be open to communist propaganda and Soviet invasion.

1. There is no doubt about it. The victory of the revolution in Germany meant that Hitler would not exist and the Second World War could be avoided (including the occupation of Poland and the death of 6 million Polish citizens). In addition, the "world merit" of the victory at Warsaw is that it turned history towards the victory of Hitler and the death of millions of Poles.
2. If the Bolshevik revolution did not win, then independent Poland could not be beaten. What the fate of the Polish people could have hit without the USSR and after the victory of Nazism in Germany is easy to foresee. So the victory of the Red Army near Kiev over the Polish aggression saved Poland itself from enslavement and death.

[boris epstein]

The Poles have forgotten that they started this war. They began with the defeat of the West Ukrainian Red Army and the occupation of the ZUNR-West Ukrainian People's Republic in early 1919. They continued in Belarus, and then in 1919 defeated the UPR army and occupied Kiev. Only after that the RSFSR began to transfer additional forces against the Poles. That is, the Poles were the aggressors. And they began to smash them quite successfully. But Great Britain and France urgently gave Poland a loan and delivered weapons, ammunition and uniforms to replace what was lost. Then MN Tukhachevsky launched an offensive on Warsaw without providing the left flank.To cover it, he demanded that the Southwestern Front under the command of Yegorov give him the First Horse. But she was involved in the Lvov operation. It was impossible to withdraw it from the battle and transfer it to the Western Front instantly. First, it was necessary to stop the offensive, replace the First Horse with infantry units, replenish it and transfer it to the Western Front by march. And this was not one day or one week. And there was no time. It was in this open flank that General Sikorsky struck. All the blame lies entirely with Tukhachevsky when developing the operation.

[Metallurg_2]

The defeat of Tukhachevsky was inflicted not by the Psheks, but by the French, who exercised real command of the Polish army. Psheki are not capable of inflicting defeat on anyone at all. Well, just your own country. It is not for nothing that they say that dark times come for Poland if a Pole is at the head of the country.

[AllBiBek]

Ie the French can only win when they command non-French? Am I getting the idea right?

[Metallurg_2]

No, the idea that Poles can only defeat someone when they are commanded by representatives of more advanced nations.

[AllBiBek]

And who and where did they defeat under the command of Napoleon's marshals?

[Metallurg_2]

Nobody. But under the command of the French General Weygand, Tukhachevsky was still given lula.

[AllBiBek]

In its original territory, please note.

But then what is the point of Poland in general?

[Metallurg_2]

The historical meaning of Poland, like that of Ukraine, is to prevent the Germans and Russians from visiting each other.

[AllBiBek]

When the Germans as a separate nation were born, Poland as a state did not exist for a hundred years.

[Nikolai Korovin]

The Germans appeared as a separate nation in 843, after the division of Charlemagne's empire between his sons. The date of the formation of the first Polish state is considered to be 966 - in significantly smaller borders than now. Oleg nailed the shield to the gates of Constantinople in 907. Therefore, it seems that Poland was formed with the goal indicated by Mikhail. The fact that feudal fragmentation lasted longer in Germany than anywhere else in Europe does not mean that the nation did not exist - all these dukes, princes and electors were related to each other. The emperor of the Holy Roman Empire of the German people formally possessed all power in a territory larger than today's Germany and Austria, sometimes up to and including Milan, which, it should be noted, was strongly hindered by the French kings, and also sometimes had a residence in Prague. Another thing is that the big feudal lords did not obey him well. After the third partition of Poland, with a short break for the period of Napoleon's rule, the ties between Russia and Germany for about a century were very strong, especially for some time after 1866, when Austria-Hungary practically became a protectorate of Germany. Dreikieserbund, so to speak. But some people, let's not point the finger, put a lot of effort into ruining this seemingly stable structure.

[Terenin]

Quote: Metallurg_2

The historical meaning of Poland, like that of Ukraine, is to prevent the Germans and Russians from visiting each other.

Exactly ... And, therefore, it is advisable, between Ukraine and Poland, to initiate the creation of some, albeit a small state.

[Metallurg_2]

Oops, do you want Ukrainians not to be able to go to Poland to pick strawberries and clean Polish toilets?

[Terenin]

Quote: AllBiBek

Ie the French can only win when they command non-French? Am I getting the idea right?

Yes ... So ... history shows.

[Cyril G ...]

The project tells about the Soviet-Polish war from the point of view, officially adopted today by Warsaw. In particular, it says that after the victory over internal opponents by the early 1920s, the Bolsheviks focused on Poland.

The authors of the project decided to forget that the Poles had captured Kiev and a bunch of territories by this time? Clearly taking advantage of the situation ..

[Pavel57]

Those who want to grab the territory of Russia have always been and are now.

[AllBiBek]

Khazars, Pechenegs, Polovtsians, Novgorodians, Vladimirs, Suzdals, Mongols, Tatars of a bunch of species, Poles, with the support of Hungarians, Austrians, someone else ... This I am listing only those who took Kiev over the last thousand years under their tribal or state name.
How many people participated in these processes and in between times - well, multiply by three.

[Journalist]

Read and remember men, for the sake of our grandfathers and great-grandfathers who fell (600 thousand) for the sake of the liberation and preservation of the cities of Poland! After all, they could have simply demolished all the artillery and the infantry went .. Here she is gratitude!
We even forgave them 100 thousand of Tukhachevsky's Red Army soldiers who were frozen in captivity ..
Don't do good, you won't get stabbed in the back ..
Well, now everything has been found out about everything .. Let's be cynical, as in the days of the Tsarist Empire in relation to Poland (the province of Russia) ..
It's a pity that the Poles have not learned anything in their history .. We wanted the best ..

[Klingon]

how these psheks got it already, everyone rummages in their burial ground, already the whole world stinks

[Viktor Sergeev]

Does humanity know?

[Pavel57]

Comrade Stalin understood the alienation of the Poles to proletarian unity, and Comrade Lenin agreed with him.

[iouris]

Exactly. Schicklgruber would not have become Hitler.

[Revolver]

Quote: iouris

Exactly. Schicklgruber would not have become Hitler.

Finally, he was born Hitler. It was his father Alois who was Schicklgruber in childhood, but became Hitler when his father (and, accordingly, Adolf's grandfather) married Adolf's grandmother Maria Schicklgruber and legitimized his biological son Alois, born before marriage.

[iouris]

Vashcheto, I am not an esthete (unlike you) and I spoke on the topic.

[Knell wardenheart]

In a sense, a truly epochal moment. If we were with our ideas at that time on the border with Germany, how to know how everything would turn out ... Although perhaps these events played into the hands of both us and Europe - after the revolutions and the General War of the RSFSR was not in the best shape, and harass our thoroughly beaten dem .the potential for a world revolution without end is such an idea .. so we at least focused on building and organizing within the country.

[Revolver]

Quote: Knell Wardenheart

The RSFSR was not in the best shape, and harassing our thoroughly beaten dem. Potential for a world revolution endlessly is such an idea ...

It was this idea that Lenin and Trotsky supported, and Stalin, at the first opportunity, poured it into the sewer, where it belongs.

[Kunica]

They did not answer us for the intervention of the 17th century and the time of troubles. False Dmitry in their mouth.

[Gloomy skeptic]

Do the Poles think? And who is interested in this their "accounting" opinion, except themselves? Poland is a misunderstanding that has arisen due to the sluggishness of Russia and Germany, and with the slightest tension between politicians in Europe, it will disappear just as it did - unexpectedly and quickly.

[Kuzmitsky]

The opinion of the Poles is interesting, at least to you, since you have not only read the note, but also left a comment. Usually, what is not interesting is not read. And to figure out which state by whose sluggishness arose is a task just as thankless as predicting the future.

Poland gained independence at a time when the citizens of the former Russian Empire were too busy exterminating each other. They had no time for the Poles. so it's not a matter of quickness. The defeated Germans, all the more, had no time for Poland ... That's what the gentlemen took advantage of the moment.

[Zhevlonenko]

Naive Polish boys, she / Europe was already open to propaganda, communist parties and cells were very popular before the Second World War.