General Director of Russian Helicopters explained the meaning of the unification of KB Mil and Kamov

The creation of the National Center for Helicopter Engineering (NCV), which includes the Mil and Kamov Design Bureau, is aimed at rebalancing capacities and improving the quality of design documentation. This was stated by Andrey Boginsky, general director of the Russian Helicopters holding.

According to Boginsky, the main goal of uniting the two design bureaus at NCV is to develop uniform requirements for personnel and rebalancing of capacities, the second goal is to improve the quality of design documentation for delivery to a serial plant the first time.

It used to be like: they ordered work on the specifics of "Mily", then "Kamov", but it happened that "Mil" had work, but "Kamov" did not, and vice versa. Let's say the R&D "Speed" is developing, but there is no order yet. While work continues on a new coaxial vehicle, on the Ka-52M, plus the Ka-52K for our helicopter carriers. That is, the Kamovites are loaded today

- declared Boginsky.

Another goal of creating the NCV, he said, is to attract young specialists to serious work from the "earlier stages".

We are currently solving these tasks so that employees at different levels feel the support of the management and their involvement in the processes. In return, we demand qualifications and high quality of work performed

- added the general director of the holding.

Recall that the decision to merge Mil Moscow Helicopter Plant JSC and Kamov JSC and create on their basis JSC Mil Mil and NI Kamov National Helicopter Engineering Center was made in October 2019 by the board of directors of the Russian Helicopters holding.

Comments

[svp67]

Yes, everything is fine, but there will be competition between them? This is very important ... A monopolist, in any field, will ruin the business very quickly

[Vladimir16]

The creation of the National Center for Helicopter Engineering (NCV), which includes the Mil and Kamov Design Bureau, is aimed at

Life shows once again that the planned economy is more efficient.

This association is just an attempt to maintain a reasonable economy. Not to sculpt a hunchback against a wall, but to set tasks for each team and demand the solution of these tasks.

What the hell is the competition if these design bureaus have been creating different machines all their lives?

Each design bureau did what they were instructed from above.

What was PLANNED from above.

Rubbish called "competition" was stuck in everyone's brain when the country was being destroyed. We destroyed production.

Our trakotra could not stand the competition with the West and had to close the factories.
Do they still believe in this hat?

Caliber was created in a tough competition with whom? In what markets was this "fight"?

[svp67]

Quote: Vladimir16

What the hell is the competition if these design bureaus have been creating different machines all their lives?

But somehow it is not always ... There are many examples of their competition when creating helicopters of the same purpose.

[Pavel57]

svp67, the competition between the Ka-50/52 and the Mi-28 showed that there is no real competition. As a result, all the sisters received, and earrings, and the country, 2 combat helicopters instead of one.

And taking into account the Mi-24/35 - three.

[svp67]

Quote: Pavel57

svp67, the competition between the Ka-50/51 and the Mi-28 showed that there is no real competition. As a result, all the sisters received earrings, and the country received 2 combat helicopters instead of one.

And what about the Ka-60 and Ka-226 projects? These projects have supplanted the Mil on its site.
And you are in vain that there is no competition between the Ka-50/52 and the Mi-28, it is there and there is a lot ... The state simply does not have money, to give up cheaper and weaker helicopters ..

[Vladimir16]

Quote: svp67

The state simply has no money

No planning for your needs.
A whole generation of people have been raised who choose from the proposed.
These are not statesmen. These are the women in the jewelry store.

Because of this approach, design bureaus are forced to do all kinds of rubbish. Namely, to solve the same problem.

Wash the washed dishes. And everyone has the right to demand money.

Otherwise, KB will die.

It is necessary to drive market leaders in the neck. Along with the competition.

[Malyuta]

Quote: Vladimir16

It is necessary to drive market leaders in the neck. Along with the competition.

I am very sorry, but you are too emotionally confusing something with the neck of a goose, namely, there is a competition of design ideas, and there is a market “competition” of the market.
in this case, the competition between the two directions in the helicopter industry will be destroyed, and, accordingly, the helicopter industry itself.
Shl. The board of directors of the holding 2 helicopters of russia "includes exclusively hucksters, including Boginsky and the notorious, but amnestied by ssar, furniture maker-thief Serdyukov!

[Vladimir16]

Quote: Malyuta

I am very sorry, but you are too emotionally confusing something with the neck of a goose

No, sir.
In a planned state economy, any thought of an engineer becomes PUBLIC !!!
Available for engineers of other design bureaus.
Little of. Engineering solutions are taught in universities.

Do not trade in patents !!!

Engineers are motivated not by the belonging of the enterprise in which he works to this or that owner.


So, I do not confuse a bolt with a gooseneck ..
But it really looks like emotion-

Quote: Malyuta

in this case, the competition between the two directions in the helicopter industry will be destroyed, and, accordingly, the helicopter industry itself

The factories in the country closed exactly at the moment when the state decided to play the market and competition.

[Malyuta]

Quote: Vladimir16

Engineers are motivated not by the belonging of the enterprise in which he works to this or that owner.

Oh-oh! In fact, it was like this, a few design bureaus are issued TK with the necessary performance characteristics, at the output we get, for example. 3-4 products from which the best is selected and put into production. At the same time, the developments of other design bureaus do not "crap", and the most promising design solutions are used in new developments.
This is how the shooter, MLRS, aviation were created, in general, I’m tired of listing everything.
I repeat once again, without competition or, if you like, the competitiveness of the design thought, there will be NO movement forward!
Therefore, I consider the merger of two design bureaus under the roof of a commercial structure the murder of the helicopter industry !!!

[ancient]

Quote: Vladimir16

It is necessary to drive market leaders in the neck. Along with the competition.

What are you ... proposing to expel .. "all friends"? ... On .. "sacred" .. encroaching on?

[Pavel57]

svp67 (Sergey), everything happens in the real world and the factor of limiting resources, including money, is a reality. Ka-60 - how many years they have not been able to finish it, and is there a demand for it?
Ka-226, if not for the Indian contract, would there be a demand for it?

[svp67]

Quote: Pavel57

Ka-60 - how many years they have not been able to finish it, and is there a demand for it?
Ka-226, if not for the Indian contract, would there be a demand for it?

Ka-62 went. And nevertheless, the machines of the competitor Mil, who previously controlled this sector in our country completely ...
The same story was with the Mi-14, when Mil had already "climbed" into the "Kamov territory"
And if you remember their confrontation in the creation of super-heavy helicopters

[Malyuta]

Quote: svp67

And if you remember their confrontation in the creation of super-heavy helicopters

That's right, in the competition of design ideas masterpieces are born, and now all the few achievements of the Russian Helicopters holding are a banal assembly of what was designed in the last years of the USSR. Soviet designers did not have time to develop a civilian helicopter, so it still does not exist. Long-term promises to create a high-speed civilian helicopter were ground from fantastic speeds to real ones, but they remained on paper. The current head of JSC Russian Helicopters closed the project, but in the absence of other air locks in stock, he returned to a promising high-speed helicopter. The fairy tale about the white bull began all over again.
You don't even need to wang, the merger of two KB is the end of the domestic helicopter industry.It should also be borne in mind that BP is closely related to Leonardo Helicopters.
I also want to add that the staff of "BP" is about 650 people, there are commercial directors and marketing and other rubbish, there are practically no designers from aviation, but there is a furniture maker Serdyukov, an experienced thief. All this horde with millions of salaries and golden parachutes will have to be fed.
So there will be one with a bipod, and seven with a spoon.

[K-612-O]

The Mi-14 is not a deck helicopter, it can land on the deck, but the propeller does not fold. Their basing is purely onshore.

[Uncle Izya]

K-50 won the competition in the USSR

[K-612-O]

He did not win, the Mi-28 was not yet ready, and later it was removed from service in favor of a normal 2-local version with enhanced capabilities.

[Seba]

Quote: Pavel57

svp67, the competition between the Ka-50/52 and the Mi-28 showed that there is no real competition. As a result, all the sisters received, and earrings, and the country, 2 combat helicopters instead of one.

And taking into account the Mi-24/35 - three.

Ka 50/52; mi 28; mi24 are three different helicopters with 3 different concepts. Here the global problem of the Ministry of Defense is that they cannot choose one thing and in total take everything that they offer, which is not very good

[Pavel57]

seba, is the country so rich that it can afford to have three helicopters for each concept?

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: Pavel57

that there is really no competition

The same can be said about the competition between Shpagin and Sudaev, and Degtyarev. all gave similar results, but each had its own flavor.

[Vladimir16]

If you have children, is it always the child who does it better?
Or do you approach it differently?

I got this stereotype "MARKET".

There is no market in the defense of the country. Another approach.
There are state tasks.

Insanity with auctions in defense orders it's time to end

[svp67]

Quote: Vladimir16

There is no market in the defense of the country. Another approach.

Yes, you "tortured" with this "market" ... You have already turned it into a "bazaar". Do you generally understand what a COMPETITION or COMPETITION is, which would be more understandable for you?

[K-612-O]

These are machines that are different in their missions, but the Ka52 is primarily a reconnaissance attack helicopter and controls the same 28

[svp67]

Quote: K-612-O

but the Ka52 is primarily a reconnaissance attack helicopter and controls the same 28

These are fairy tales ... Ka-52 is just a helicopter with great capabilities and it was not designed for the Mi-28, for the Ka-50

[Fmax]

Only mi 28 was lobbied, and ka 52 is a good combat helicopter.

[bayard]

Quote: svp67

But somehow it is not always ... There are many examples of their competition when creating helicopters of the same purpose.

And this is not only the Mi-28 / Ka-50/52, there was intense competition between the Mi-24 and the Ka-29, moreover, precisely as a flying BMP Ka-29 was better - much more troops in an armored cabin, a higher carrying capacity and, accordingly, more weapons able to take. But the Mi-24 was more customary in the management of army helicopter pilots + the war in Afghanistan demanded to hurry with such helicopters into series.
If the pro-Mile lobby kicks in again, they will begin to "optimize" to the detriment of the Kamov design bureau, closing their factories and production sites, which have only begun to revive in recent years, in contrast to the Mil design bureau, which is always full of orders.
New helicopter carriers need NEW helicopters.
What kind of helicopters will they be?
All surviving and repaired Ka-29s will hardly be enough, and for how long?
It's time to think about resuming the construction of the Ka-29 in an updated look - it's hard to come up with the best landing helicopter, because in addition to good capacity and armament, it is also well armored. And compact for ease of deployment on landing craft.
We will hardly see the Ka-60, which was planned as an amphibious assault for the Mistrals. Its civilian version still cannot be started - there are no engines.
There are engines for the Ka-29.
And it can be largely unified with the Ka-52, because when designing the Ka-50, the Ka-29 was taken as a basis - its propeller-driven group.
The Kamov Design Bureau is being optimized - we will be left without deck helicopters.

[volodimer]

So far, the result is not visible from the "merger" of the Sukhoi and Mikoyan Design Bureau, and there will be no sense from this merger either ...

[Vladimir16]

Quote: svp67

A monopolist, in any field, will ruin the business very quickly

For example, is Rosatom quickly ruining the business?

Did you buy turbines from Siemens and General because of competition? Or was it just that human beings were sucked by these manufacturers?

Competition is important in the vegetable market. There you can see who has better and cheaper tomatoes.

[svp67]

Quote: Vladimir16

Competition is important in the vegetable market.

Don't tell fairy tales, the best was always chosen in confrontation ...

Quote: Vladimir16

For example, is Rosatom quickly ruining the business?

Quite quickly, judging by how orders for the construction of nuclear power plants are being taken away from him on the world stage and, most importantly, for the maintenance of nuclear power plants "Soviet-built"

[Vladimir16]

I am not telling you fairy tales.

Stalin built two car factories AMO-ZIS and NAZ-GAZ. On one, the three-ton was done. On the second lorry.
The troops were approximately equally divided.

There was a need - they built factories.

Comrade Stalin did not sit and did not choose from what the market in the USSR had created. Who will win the tender for the purchase of vehicles by the army.
Leaders with such an approach in an instant participated in social competitions for felling trees.
He set the task - to create.

Tupolev was ordered by the same guy from the Kremlin to COPY the American.
Not to play with competition, but to organize the production of a copy. For the defense of the country requires the solution of specific tasks in specific terms.

This is planning! Five-year plans. Planned economy.

And he won the war in the end.

[Vladimir16]

But in shops and hairdressing salons there should be entrepreneurial freedom.

[svp67]

Quote: Vladimir16

Tupolev was ordered by the same guy from the Kremlin to COPY the American.

And Myasishchev proposed to Stalin to do this, but in the competition of Soviet designers, Stalin chose another ... You need to know a little history.

[ancient]

Quote: svp67

You need to know a little history.

And why know it ... the main thing is to "drown" and "support" all areas of activity of the current leaders with the slogan .. "You are going the right way ... tovarizchi"

[ancient]

Quote: Vladimir16

Tupolev was ordered by the same guy from the Kremlin to COPY the American.

Because on that moment they didn’t know how, so they copied it (as well as with engines and rockets and ... etc. or as they say .. took as a basis for our own development

[bayard]

Quote: ancient

Because at that time they did not know how, therefore they copied

The deadlines were running out, and that is why the "Father of Nations" said: "Don't be better than the Americans, make the same plane."
But at the same time, work began on two strategic bombers "Bizon" and "Bear" - COMPETITION!
And the Sukhoi Design Bureau was revived precisely for the sake of COMPETITION when creating fighters, because without it - competition, the MiG began to stagnate in thought.

And now, how the Milians are upgrading their Mi-28 vigorously - against the background of the Ka-52, their offspring looks ... pale.
Maybe that's why you got so excited about optimization?
By the way, with Colonel you.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: Vladimir16

What the hell is the competition if these design bureaus have been creating different machines all their lives?

Just - no, not always. Only this was not called competition, but socialist competition. Which was between Mil and Kamov, and between MiG, Su and Yak ...

[K-612-O]

It's funny, since the 60s there was practically no competition in aviation. All were divided according to the best competencies and instructed to develop what they do best.

[svp67]

Quote: K-612-O

It's funny, since the 60s there has been practically no competition in aviation

It's funny to read it. just then, we had the highest competition in aircraft construction, for each competition several aircraft designs from different design bureaus were proposed and we tried to choose the best one.
Name any type of aircraft created at that time and it is easy to find competing aircraft created in other design bureaus

[DenZ]

Quote: svp67

for each competition, several aircraft designs from different design bureaus were proposed and they tried to choose the best one.

In the USA, by the way, it was done the same way. And the current association, in my opinion, has its ultimate goal to turn our helicopter industry into a swamp, well, to cut money for the merger procedure, because everything that is stated as the reasons for the merger can be done without the merger as such, it is enough to correctly distribute the work (that is, plan). Well, about the quality of the design documentation, it's funny, what was meant is not clear (computers for designers are rather weak or something), but as a reason, apparently it should be weighty ... IMHO all this is a storm in a glass of muddy water where someone wants to catch a fish.

[K-612-O]

What competitor did the MiG-19/21 have? Su-17/24? The Ka-25/27? Mi-8/24?

[bayard]

Quote: K-612-O

What competitor did the MiG-19/21 have?

It was just after the MiG-19 that it became clear that the creative thought of the Mikoyanites was sour. And urgently (!) They revived the Sukhoi Design Bureau. And two aircraft have already entered the competition for the new fighter:
MiG-21
Su-7
Then they chose the MiG-21 as the main fighter ... but HOW then the Mikoyanites DROWNED THE EARTH, trying to win this competition.
The Su-7 had greater speed and range, and could take more weapons. This was a big plus.
But the MiG-21 had a delta wing, which was considered (and rightly) more progressive than the swept wing.
But the Su-7 was SO good that they also decided not to abandon it, but to turn it into a fighter-bomber and a carrier of tactical nuclear warheads.
If the Su-7 did not compete, we would not have received such a masterpiece of fighter aviation as the MiG-21.
And the legend of the fighter-bomber aircraft Su-7, which distinguished itself in air battles with enemy fighters!
Genes!
Fighter.
There was a case when the Indian Su-7 received a rocket in the engine, and with a torn nozzle, making a combat turn, entered into an air battle with two (!) Pakistani clones of the MiG-19.
He shot down one of them and put the other to flight.

Quote: K-612-O

Su-17/24?

Well, let's go in order.
The Su-17 was the result of a competition for an URGENT submission to the COMPETITION of fighters with variable wing sweep.
The order was URGENT, so the following were taken as a basis:
- an experienced MiG-23 with a delta wing (at that time it was still muddied with it for a long time - the air intake under the fuselage (as later in the F-16) or on the sides) of the Mikoyan Design Bureau.
- improved Su7V Sukhoi Design Bureau.
As a result, in the competition, the choice fell as a fighter - the MiG-23, because it could have a powerful radar under the fairing, and the Su-17, due to its limitations in radar capabilities, continued the glorious path of its predecessor in fighter-bomber aviation.

The history of the Su-24 is difficult and tragic in the throes of its birth. After all, at first they wanted to make it ... an aircraft with vertical / short take-off and, accordingly, landing. To be able to take off from taxiways and surviving sections of bombed runways.
During the tests and refinement of this whim of the leadership (including Khrushchev), 17 test pilots were killed.
Among pilots and aircraft technicians, this plane was considered "damned" for a very long time and many refused to fly it (already in its classic form). Bad reputation ...
But then the debris of the F-111 from Vietnam fell into the hands of the USSR ... and it was decided to do ... EXACTLY LIKE.
And they did.
But to maintain competition, a similar task was given to the Mikoyan Design Bureau. This is how the MiG-27 appeared.

And the Su-27 had a competitor, of course, the MiG-29, although they were given the terms of reference for heavy and light fighters, respectively ... the competition was VERY fierce.
And both worked.

I will not write to you about competition and competitions in helicopter engineering. It is better to read about it yourself.
But I will give one example - Mi-24 and Ka-29.
Read it yourself, it will be interesting.

[K-612-O]

The Su-7 and Su-15 are heavy clean interceptors, they are not even close to competing with the front-line fighter, the Su 17, a pure tactical bomber that the MiG did not design. The MiG29 is not nearly a competitor to the 27mu, which could not work on the ground.
And the Mi-24 is a carrier-based helicopter ?!

[bayard]

Quote: K-612-O

Su-7 and Su-15 are heavy clean interceptors, they are not even close to competing with a front-line fighter

The MiG-21 was originally also ordered as an INTERCEPTOR armed with ONLY two missiles. The cannon and the possibility of suspending 2 more missiles appeared later. A close maneuvering battle was not envisaged by the then (!) Military thought. Only interception by V-V missiles.
The phantom, by the way, was also originally created as an "all-weather high-altitude interceptor", without a cannon. A cannon, maneuverable close combat, and even bomb and assault strikes are already a Vietnamese impromptu. By the way, very successful.
Su-7 and MiG-21 - aircraft of the same competition ...
This is a REVOLUTIONARY CLASSICS, it is a sin not to know this.
The Su-15 was created already as a pure interceptor, and was in service ONLY with air defense.
For the sake of perspective, let me remind you that in the USSR the air defense had its own fighter aircraft, which was not related to the Air Force.

Quote: K-612-O

Su 17, pure tactical bomber, which MiG did not design

And if you think about it?
MiG-27?
MiG-25RB (reconnaissance bomber)?
And the Su-17 is an excellent fighter-bomber, a worthy successor to the glory of the Su-7B.

Quote: K-612-O

The MiG29 is not nearly a competitor to the 27mu, which could not work on the ground.

Well, how are you not attentive, and not well-read ...
The MiG-27 is a tactical attack bomber. It was created, among other things, to secure the Su-24 project, and as its possible analogue.
How (!) Can you read so inattentively?
Or are you a writer?
Who is not a reader?

Quote: K-612-O

And the Mi-24 is a carrier-based helicopter ?!

YOUNG!
The Mi-24 and Ka-29 were created according to one order of the Ministry of Defense and participated in one competition for the creation of an armored assault landing helicopter - a variant of a flying infantry fighting vehicle.
The Ka-29 won the competition for most parameters.
It was better armored, could carry twice as many paratroopers in an armored cockpit, and with greater comfort, could carry more weapons on the external sling, and was more maneuverable.
But they still chose the Mi-24.
It had a high speed and did not require any special / specific skills for piloting a helicopter with coaxial propellers. The Mi-8 pilot could easily master piloting the Mi-24.
In addition, the Mi-24 used a propeller-driven group from the Mi-8, although the blades were shorter to achieve a higher speed ... But at the same time, it could no longer take off vertically with a full standard load and required a short run - "on an airplane".
The outbreak of the war in Afghanistan also made its contribution, an URGENTLY armored helicopter was required, and at that time only the Mi-24 of the first version with a veranda cabin was ready. And there was no time to retrain the pilots ...
The finest hour has come for the Mi-24.

But the competition lasted for some time and if there was no war, the choice could fall on the Ka-29.

And good advice, before engaging in controversy on a specialized (any) site, take the trouble to expand your horizons by reading.
The history of Soviet aviation is very interesting and instructive.

[not main]

Quote: bayard

The Mi-24 and Ka-29 were created according to one order of the Ministry of Defense and participated in one competition for the creation of an armored assault landing helicopter - a variant of a flying infantry fighting vehicle.

After that, it became not interesting to read! For information, the Mi-24 went into production in the early 70s, and the Ka-29 after 10 years! And the Mi-24A was never called a VERANDA! The Veranda was called the Mi-8t, and the Mi-24a was nicknamed the glass! If at least you understand something in aviation (which I strongly doubt), tell me why?

[bayard]

Andrey, I wrote my commentary in response to a complete layman who wrote outright stupidity out of ignorance. You, judging by the pursuit of aviation, have an attitude and I would communicate with you in a slightly different language.
This is not an article or an essay on the history of aviation, this is a post.
The Mi-24, of course, appeared earlier and Mil has been running around with his idea since the 60s, when he worked on the Mi-8. He offered three helicopters made on the same rotor group:
- Mi-8 - transport / landing.
- Mi-24 - a flying infantry fighting vehicle with a troop compartment for one compartment.
- The Mi-28 is a flying tank, two crew members are a pure shock one.
But for a long time he did not receive approval from the Ministry of Defense for his ideas.
When the Mi-24 was approved, it was initially conceived as a narrowed and armored Mi-8, with tandem crew accommodation. The cockpit was single with solid glazing. Here it is - the Mi-24A cockpit and was called mainly "veranda". The nickname "glass" was also encountered, but in most sources and memoirs of aviators, it is the "veranda" that is still mentioned. And the last time this nickname sounded in the comments on VO was quite recently - when photos of helicopters captured by LNA militants and Turkish proxies in Libya were published (the same photos in the hangar / caponier, several pieces). And these were the words and emotions of the aviators who flew in these machines.
So "veranda", it is also in Libya (Africa) - "veranda".
And the essence of the nickname is obvious. And the fact that the Mi-8 cockpit was also called this word ... that's how it is - that's the type of glazing.

Quote: non-primary

If at least you understand something in aviation (which I strongly doubt),

At least I understand something - "I fought with her all my life," as one old friend of mine says. I am in the past an officer of the combat directorate of the air defense formation - RIC ... if this tells you something. And our compound had its own aviation in the face of a fighter regiment on the MiG-25 and a squadron of Mi-24 (12 helicopters withdrawn from Afghanistan were added to our compound to intercept light intruder aircraft - a reaction to the incident with Rust).
So I was associated with aviation as a combat command and control and combat interaction.
And why they called it a glass ... on the one hand, this is obvious, but the military with a sense of humor always had no problems ... During my service, the Mi-24A in the army ... at least by me, was no longer observed. But it was full of its subsequent modifications.

... And yes, the Ka-29 and Mi-24 (later than the Mi-24A, modifications) did participate in the competition, because the Ka-29 was offered for army aviation, and for the Border Troops, and for landing ships of the marines.
Why did he appear so late?
Because Mil had conceived his Mi-24 much earlier - when he was working on the Mi-8 and his design bureau had a good start on this topic. KB Kamov had to work almost from scratch. And the coaxial machine is technically more complicated.

I like both and each could have its own niche.
The Ka-29 would have taken root well in the border troops, in the airborne assault brigades. It is better armored and takes much more troops ... Mi-24 with a combat load does not take troops at all - or-or, it does not pull everything together, even 8 fighters.
And the maneuverability of the Ka-29 is better.
In the end, the magnificent "Black Shark" and Ka-29 appeared from the reserve for the Ka-52.
... But I also know the opinion of army aviation pilots - better than the Mi-24 and Mi-28, you don't need to retrain them.
Well, who wants to retrain in adulthood?

[not main]

Quote: bayard

bayard Yesterday, 23:55

Thanks for the answer! (But I also know the opinion of army aviation pilots - better than the Mi-24 and Mi-28, you don't need to retrain them.
Well, who wants to retrain at a mature age?) My answer is simply that I graduated from the school on the Mi-8t, RECOGNIZED in the part on the Mi-24V, then RE-LEARNED on the MI-8mt in Torzhok! And you say that there is no need to retrain from the Mi-24 to the Mi-28? Of course, on a coaxial scheme ... this is a different algorithm, but it's not as critical as from a fighter to a "helicopter pilot", by the way I know those who have become excellent "helicopter pilots" starting their service in the IBA and air defense!

[bayard]

Quote: non-primary

You say that there is no need to retrain from the Mi-24 to the Mi-28? Of course, for a coaxial scheme ... this is a different algorithm, but it's not as critical as from a fighter to "helicopter pilots"

It was from personal communication with helicopter pilots, pilots of the Mi-24V (already retired) somewhere in 2005. They discussed the advantages of the Mi-28 and Ka-50 (the Ka-52 had not yet revealed itself) - which is better to take into service. ..
In one voice - the Mi-28, it is easier and faster to transfer to it from the Mi-24 ... It looks like they were just afraid of a coaxial scheme, as if they were unfamiliar. And the service, the retraining of aircraft technicians for the coaxial ... was scary.
But now the Ka-52 has taken root in the troops ... It would be nice to return the Ka-29 to production - a very interesting and useful machine. Moreover, the propeller can be taken from the Ka-52.

[svp67]

Quote: K-612-O

What competitor was the MiG-19/21

Su-7, Yak-140, Yak-50.

Quote: K-612-O

Su-17/24?

MiG-27

Quote: K-612-O

Mi-8

Yak-24

Quote: K-612-O

Mi-24?

Ka-25F

[K-612-O]

Alas, the MiG-27 is an unsuccessful attempt to make a tactical bomber from the MiG-23 underdeveloped, which, again, did not work. Therefore, the Rasp still rules. Mi-24 is not a deck! And it cannot become one.
Yakovlev's helicopters are generally monstrous economically disastrous projects even for the USSR.
Su-7 interceptor, and Yakovlev's machines did not reach the MiGs close

[svp67]

Quote: K-612-O

Alas, the MiG-27 is an unsuccessful attempt from the MiG-23 underdeveloped.

The MiG-27 is the best tactical strike aircraft in the Union, thanks to its sighting systems

Quote: K-612-O

Su-7 interceptor, and Yakovlev's machines did not reach the MiGs close

You read the history of the creation of these aircraft, and right there the main thing is that there was competition and there was a choice.
By the way, Yakovlev's car, especially the Yak-140, "twisted" the MiG-21 on bends at once and left it, thanks to the higher speed

[bayard]

Quote: svp67

By the way, Yakovlev's car, especially the Yak-140, "twisted" the MiG-21 on bends at once and left it, thanks to the higher speed

On bends, the Yak-140 would twist the MiG-21, it was created with an emphasis on maneuverability, and its thrust-to-weight ratio was higher, jerks / accelerations were more effective ... But these are purely speculative conclusions - the Yak-140 never flew. And its speed was lower - just over 1700 km / h, due to the large area of ​​the swept wing.
But he was removed from the competition ... or rather, Yakovlev was hinted that a fighter of another design bureau would still be chosen ... and the work was stopped, and did not start test flights.
Based on the afterthought effect, we can say that such an aircraft would perform very well in Vietnam and on the BV ... but only when used together with a faster aircraft.
On the other hand, if then the concept of a heavy + light fighter was allowed and the Su-7 and Yak-140 were chosen, we would not have seen the legend of world aviation - the MiG-21.
But we chose a TRIANGULAR WING.
... And the air intake cone, as far as I remember, was uncontrollable, which apparently did not allow the 2 Machs ordered by the Air Force to be achieved with a fantastic thrust-to-weight ratio just above one.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: K-612-O

It's funny, since the 60s there was practically no competition in aviation.

I join Sergei - it's really funny to read.

[Malyuta]

Quote: Vladimir16

Our trakotra could not stand the competition with the West and had to close the factories.

What are you talking about, colleague? Tarktors are produced in the Republic of Belarus, but we have closed them for the sake of Western manufacturers, as well as curtailed the domestic civil aviation. Everything was done from above and for considerable bribes. All Russian industry and science was killed by eboputinism, not competition!

[ancient]

Quote: Vladimir16

Life shows once again that the planned economy is more efficient.

Write complete nonsense ... what do you get ... an airplane and a helicopter structure is ..... a free "economy"?

Quote: Vladimir16

Not to sculpt a hunchback against a wall, but to set tasks for each team and demand the solution of these tasks.

Yeah .. this means the main customer in the person of MO ... sculpts .. "hunchback" ... something does not fit with your position .. "loyal subject".

Quote: Vladimir16

What the hell is the competition if these design bureaus have been creating different machines all their lives?

Be surprised, but KB data has always created the same machine, called the HELICOPTER
But they are different in type, structure and layout.
In aircraft design bureaus, everything is the same.

Quote: Vladimir16

Each design bureau did what they were instructed from above.
What was PLANNED from above.

Write yourself opposites in the comment - you assert that which has long existed.

Quote: Vladimir16

Rubbish called "competition" was stuck in everyone's brain when the country was being destroyed. We destroyed production.

The entire aviation world works only on the principles of "competition" ... only with you ... all through one place
And then you do ... "Ostap .. it has gone"

[L-39NG]

Each manufacturer must plan his production himself and only deduct the taxes established by law to the state. With a monopoly of planning and production, it turns out like this - the buyer wants to buy the offered product, which he needs and in the form and quality that he needs, but he is told no, you will take what you will be given, because we have planned it for you and for you. As a result, the monopolist, the planner and the manufacturer, can raise prices and reduce quality. The buyer will still take it, there is no other product. Such a planned economy leads to collapse. We have already gone through this.

[ultra]

Quote: L-39NG

Each manufacturer must plan his production himself and only deduct the taxes established by law to the state

Sorry, but this does not apply to the military-industrial complex.

[Malyuta]

Quote: L-39NG

As a result, the monopolist, the planner and the manufacturer, can raise prices and reduce quality. The buyer will still take it, there is no other product. Such a planned economy leads to collapse.

Everything is simpler, "BP" will straddle all the financial flows in the helicopter industry, first they will cut the money, and then the property of the factories, declaring their infrastructure to be unprofitable.

[L-39NG]

An example of competition from the old days. If there was a bad blacksmith in the village - a nonsense, the peasants traveled to neighboring villages and villages or to fairs in search of the best product, even then people could choose from a wide range of goods from different manufacturers. This is not a "planned" take what is.
Well, that bad blacksmith became a beggar with the whole family. Everyone is the creator of his own happiness. And there is nothing to spend money on idlers and inept. Natural choice - the best remained on the market.

[orionvitt]

Quote: Vladimir16

The rubbish called "competition" was stuck in everyone's brain when the country was being destroyed

Well, don't tell me. There is competition and competition. Under the Union, there was healthy competition between design bureaus. And in rocketry, and in tank building, and even in aviation, so in general. There was, of course, a financial component, but the emphasis was more on prestige. On the other hand, what are the Russian helicopter design bureaus doing? They are engaged in the modernization of developments of the 70s and 80s. Where are the new models and types of helicopters? Where is the return? If they have not invented anything new for more than thirty years separately, then let them unite, maybe at least something will come out together. By the way, this also applies to aircraft design bureaus. In "stagnant" times, each design bureau, new types of aircraft, issued "to the mountain", regularly, with an intensity of every two, three years. And many still fly.

[Malyuta]

Quote: Vladimir16

Caliber was created in a tough competition with whom? In what markets was this "fight"?

Have you ever worked in the KB? If not, then you had better keep quiet, otherwise you are carrying some kind of game.

[at84432384]

Competition is when one kills the other using, as a rule, the dirtiest methods, because they are the cheapest and most effective. The most efficient is corruption. With regard to the aviation industry, the history of "competition" between the Sukhov and Tupolev Design Bureau (Superjet versus Tu-334) is very indicative. Now there is no Tupolev Design Bureau or Superjet.

[CSKA]

Quote: Vladimir16

Life shows once again that the planned economy is more efficient.

))))))) Where does it show? On the example of the USSR?)))))) Or now on the example of the DPRK and Cuba?

Quote: Vladimir16

Our trakotra could not stand the competition with the West and had to close the factories.
Do they still believe in this hat?

In all civilized economically developed countries.

Quote: Vladimir16

Caliber was created in a tough competition with whom?

With competitors from abroad.

[Vlad T]

You are wrong about one thing, even Stalin always had several design bureaus (Lavochkin, Tupolev, Petlyakov, Ilyushin ...) and in one direction. We have created one ROSCOSMOS, they are slowly sawing, there is no competition, the results are deplorable ... You always need to have several manufacturers, otherwise stagnation ...

[Uncle lee]

Quote: svp67

will ruin the case very quickly

Su and Mig are also piled up ...

[svp67]

Quote from Uncle Lee

Su and Mig are also piled up ...

While this idea was abandoned ...

[Uncle lee]

Quote: svp67

While

The premise was! And the helicopter pilots there too!

[tank64rus]

Especially when there is Mr. Serdyukov "optimizer" of everything and everyone.

[prior]

Why suffer. Close and KB Kamov and KB Mil nafig all at once. Sell ​​energy and buy American helicopters.
That's the goal of these fucking SEOs and efficient managers.
Or did I not understand something ?!

[K-612-O]

So nth has no competition for 60 years. They design and develop niche machines for completely different purposes. God forbid, the Milians will climb onto the deck yet. Mascara light.

[ancient]

Quote: svp67

A monopolist, in any field, will ruin the business very quickly

But Vladimr Vladimirovich does not think so

[ancient]

Quote: svp67

Yes everything is nothing

Yes, everything is bad, because ... here is a quote from the article - ".... According to Boginsky, the main goal of uniting two design bureaus at NCV is development of uniform requirements for personnel and rebalancing of capacities, the second goal is improving the quality of design documentation for delivery to a serial plant the first time."
Those. a person to aviation is not ... "centimeter" ... read the biography ... economist banker, .. "merchant" ... well, just like ... "Tolya mepbelshchik"
1. What are his .. "uniform requirements" more
2. The quality of CD quality ... is generally ... beyond reason (this is in the sense ... do not wipe with an elastic, but only white?)
And about STATE MILITARY STANDARD OF THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION and about TECHNIQUES FOR DEVELOPING TACTICAL AND TECHNICAL TASKS FOR CONDUCTING R&D did he even hear? .. I'm not saying ..... what did he see
3. Well, about CD .. "high quality" ... it's generally ... something
Those. a person does not know how to justify another "hapok", whatever ..... "it seemed to be decent"

[AUL]

Quote: svp67

the second goal is to improve the quality of design documentation for delivery to a serial plant the first time.

Is it necessary to unite for this?

Another goal of creating the NCV, he said, is to attract young specialists to serious work from the "earlier stages".

And without unification - no way?

[ficus2003]

Quote: svp67

A monopolist, in any field, will ruin the business very quickly

Riley? And what about Rosatom?

[Vlad T]

You noticed correctly. Even Stalin always had several design bureaus (Lavochkin, Tupolev, Petlyakov, Ilyushin ...) and in one direction. We have created one ROSCOSMOS, they are slowly sawing, there is no competition, the results are deplorable ... You always need to have several manufacturers, otherwise stagnation ...

[Marconi41]

This is not good. So at least there was some kind of competition, but now only its illusion.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Rave. And rebalancing of capacity and quality of design documentation can be accomplished without merging. Another "fig leaf" for "optimization with acquisitions" could not come up with even a plausible excuse

[Svarog]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

Another "fig leaf" for "optimization with acquisitions" could not come up with even a plausible excuse

The reformer Serdyukov can be seen there and the style is similar ..

[Pavel57]

Andrey from Chelyabinsk (Andrey), have you heard about the debts of KB Kamov?

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: Pavel57

Have you heard about the debts of KB Kamov?

One might ask - what does the debt have to do with it?

[Pavel57]

Andrey is from Chelyabinsk (Andrey), debts are one of the factors that forced us to reform the industry. No, well, if you or I were a director, then of course you would cover the debts from your own pocket.))))

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: Pavel57

debts are one of the factors that forced to reform the industry

Pavel, firstly, after the merger, the debts do not disappear anywhere - the merged company becomes the legal successor. Secondly, for the state, having 2 such design bureaus is a matter of strategic importance, so it could help with debts.

[Pavel57]

Andrey is from Chelyabinsk (Andrey), I think in our difficult world for the state there are now hundreds of such issues of strategic importance. The unification decision is not the worst.

The debts will have to be covered, but the main thing is not to create new debts.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: Pavel57

I think in our difficult world for the state now there are hundreds of such issues of strategic importance

Right. But leading industries such as aviation-ship-atom and others like them should be a priority.

[ancient]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

Brad.

Andrey, bravo ... I completely agree with you ... and those who "drown" for the merger of the design bureaus will pursue other goals, but the forum users on .... "not knowing"
Nobody has ever CANCELED
STATE MILITARY STANDARD OF THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION
(. System of product development and launching)

Section .... MILITARY EQUIPMENT.

Chapter .... PROCEDURE FOR PERFORMANCE OF EXPERIMENTAL AND DESIGN WORKS ON CREATION OF PRODUCTS AND THEIR COMPONENTS

1 DEVELOPED by the All-Russian Scientific Research Institute for Standardization (VNIIstandard) of the Gosstandart of Russia INTRODUCED by the Department of Mechanical Engineering of the Gosstandart of Russia

2 ACCEPTED AND INTRODUCED BY Decree of the State Standard of Russia dated 01.01.01.

3 REPLACE GOST B 15.203-79, GOST B 15.204-79 on the territory of the Russian Federation

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

How glad I am to see you again!

[ancient]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

How glad I am to see you again!

Mutually when the opportunity arose, I always "read" you
True, I'm no longer .. "trotter" .. but something else .. "there" .. so .. let's try ... "get lost"

[ultra]

Today's Russia will not "pull" the Soviet legacy into the military-industrial complex.

[Mountain shooter]

This is bad. Someone will "eat" someone ... With such mergers, there is no other way. Alas.

[Blue fox]

But won't it turn out that the attitude will change to "And so it will do!" (from)? Will they take it anyway?

[Alex66]

And Serdyukov has nothing to do with helicopters, would that clarify a lot?

[Svarog]

Quote: Alex66

And Serdyukov has nothing to do with helicopters, would that clarify a lot?

On May 8, 2019, he was elected Chairman of the Board of Directors of PJSC United Aircraft Corporation.

[Pavel57]

Svarog, and when did Russian Helicopters enter the UAC?

[Svarog]

Quote: Pavel57

Svarog, and when did Russian Helicopters enter the UAC?

We haven’t entered yet, but we must enter it in the plans ..

[Pavel57]

We haven’t entered yet, but we must enter it in the plans ..

Then why talk about it as a fait accompli?

[Svarog]

Quote: Pavel57

Then why talk about it as a fait accompli?

Where did I say this as a fait accompli? Take a closer look before asking questions.

[Pavel57]

So I did not understand in the jumble of your facts - Serdyukov, UAC and Kamov.

[Whirlwind]

In the Soviet Union, there was a practice of combining a lagging collective farm with an advanced one to improve the performance in the region as a whole. It looks like the Kamovites were forced to lend a helping hand to the Milians to improve the performance of the Russian Helicopters holding ...

[tank64rus]

In the USSR, competition between design bureaus has always been supported.

[ultra]

So it was in the USSR, we are far from the USSR in terms of science and industry.

[Pavel57]

Quote: tank64rus

In the USSR, competition between design bureaus has always been supported.

Yeah, but do you know the stories of how Tupolev squeezed projects from Ilyushin, Myasishchev and Sukhov?
Conversely, there were also such examples. This competition is not at the technical level, but at the level of lobbying in the defense department of the Central Committee.

[Pavel57]

Quote: Vladimir16

There is no market in the defense of the country. Another approach.
There are state tasks.

There is always a market, it was in the USSR, and in Russia, at the level of ministries and the Central Committee.
Examples - 3 main tanks, 3 combat helicopters. You can recall the number of ballistic missiles.

[rotkiv04]

The experience of such associations already exists - Su and MIG, the result is also there - MIG was almost killed, the history of Russian optimizers does not teach anything, only Comrade Mauser can heal them

[tihonmarine]

Andrey Boginsky - candidate of economic sciences, has the title of "Honorary Aircraft Builder". Member of the Board of Directors of JSC Russian Helicopters since June 30, 2015.

Journalists, economists, lawyers manage space, aircraft construction, motor construction, etc. But why do rocket scientists, aircraft builders, designers not run banks, do not work as lawyers?

[Yarik]

Because his task is not helicopter construction as such, but control of the movement of the dough. They realized that they could not create something worthwhile, breakthrough, and decided, and we spend money on it. Let's combine and the costs will be lower. And this clown with savings will also receive a prize

[senima56]

But what about "healthy, fair competition" ?! Based on the article - it is necessary to combine the Kalashnikov concern with the ZID (Degtyarev plant) too ?!

[Dikson]

Optimization and staff reduction coming? The creation of Corporations in our country gives rise to sluggish, slow, money-guzzling monsters, in which design thought dies.

[Alien From]

Cut! -That's the only goal they pursue! Parasites!

[Pavel57]

Quote: Whirlwind

It looks like the Kamovites were forced to lend a helping hand to the Milians to improve the performance of the Russian Helicopters holding ...

I have already mentioned Kamov's debts, so if debts are considered a helping hand ...

[Cyril G ...]

Quote: svp67

Ka-60 and Ka-226? These projects have supplanted the Mil on its site.

Does Mile have aircraft of the appropriate class?

[7,62x54]

What else could you expect from an AvtoVAZ manager?

[alex aircraft]

There was more competition in the Union than now. Each design bureau proposed its ideas, its vision (what is in the plane, what is in the helicopter building) now this damn optimization. Fie on it !! let's optimize the AP, the State Duma, the sovfred.

[Radical]

From Wikipedia -

Andrey Ivanovich Boginsky
Date of birth August 11, 1974 (age 45)
Place of birth Bryansk
Citizenship Russia
Occupation Economist, industrial organizer

This last (funny) phrase says everything. You do not need to have a specialized, or even just engineering education to become an "organizer of industry." Curiously, is there one in the list of professions and specialties?
"We all learned a little,
Something, and somehow .... "
The poet-writer, of course, had in mind something somewhat different, but in relation to the current "organizers" not only of industry, but of everything else, the word "somehow" is very appropriate ....

[Drugov]

Instead of setting specific tasks for the design bureau and motivating them to get results in fair competition, these modernizers kill the desire for creativity and in every possible way condone the emergence of another stillborn, ineffective corporation.

[standan]

Quote: svp67

Quite quickly, judging by how orders for the construction of nuclear power plants are being taken away from him on the world stage and, most importantly, for the maintenance of nuclear power plants "Soviet-built"

Will there be proofs or are they also fairy tales?

[Charik]

the decision to merge Mil Moscow Helicopter Plant JSC and Kamov JSC and create on their basis JSC Mil Mil and Nikolai Kamov National Helicopter Engineering Center was made in October 2019 by the Council directors of the holding "Helicopters of Russia". - this is where the serpent is the heroine of the series - steal with your mistress and become a hero

[Yarik]

Who needs it? This is necessary for those who have no longer enough money for yachts, foreign football clubs. Those who are least interested in the country's defense. And from the words of this glaring helicopter pilot: about competition, workload, etc., etc., this is the same nonsense like Rogozinovsky about trampolines.

[Pavel57]

Quote: rotkiv04

The experience of such associations already exists - Su and MIG, the result is also there - MIG was almost killed, the history of Russian optimizers does not teach anything, only Comrade Mauser can heal them

MiG almost killed Poghosyan, but on the other hand, Belyakov created the prerequisites for this.

[standan]

Quote: svp67

Quote: Vladimir16

For example, is Rosatom quickly ruining the business?

Quite quickly, judging by how orders for the construction of nuclear power plants are being taken away from him on the world stage and, most importantly, for the maintenance of nuclear power plants "Soviet-built"

https://yandex.ru/turbo/s/ng.ru/economics/2019-07-15/4_7623_1507191447.html

[iouris]

Optimization was also carried out before the onset of the medical pandemic.

[APASUS]

It is necessary to unite all aviation in a huge holding and create another clumsy monster, like Rusnano!

[iouris]

They won't dare to raise their hand at Rusnano, but the rest of the "monsters" will be disposed of.
At the "All-Russian" dictation, a fragment of the text "Ruslan and Lyudmila" was recognized by many examinees as "Rusnano and Lyudmila", and instead of "sports equipment" they heard "sport and amber".
Kamov and Mil will now be Kamila.

[Garant_Solntselikij]

Well, if they unite, they will devour kamov for a couple of years, then don't go to the grandmother

[Ros 56]

Who is this Boginsky, if he gives out such crap for arguments. Create uniform documentation requirements and that's it.

[Evil 55]

Red will never tell the truth ...

[NordUral]

I see all of them that there is a split consciousness. Recently I just read that they decided not to unite. And here, it was not even once, but again again.

[fa2998]

We read the news from Moscow, and the rulers from Washington decided to connect Northrop + Boeing + General Electric. They want to overtake Moscow