The Russian Navy begins testing container-type combat modules

By the end of the summer, the Russian Navy will begin testing new combat modules based on conventional sea containers. This was reported by Izvestia with reference to the RF Ministry of Defense.

Tests of combat modules based on conventional 20- and 40-foot sea containers will take place at the sea ranges of the North fleet and should be completed by the end of this year. Details of the upcoming tests were not disclosed.

According to the results of the tests, a decision will be made to install weapons systems and special equipment assembled inside conventional sea containers on various types of ships, the design of which provides for this. First of all, we are talking about patrol ships of project 22160 "Vasily Bykov", corvettes of project 20386 "Daring", as well as patrol icebreakers of project 23550 of the "Ivan Papanin" type. It is possible to install such combat modules on other types of ships and vessels, the design of which allows it.

Such containers, carrying various "stuffing", ranging from anti-ship missiles and cruise missiles to air defense systems and torpedo tubes, are mounted on the deck or in the underdeck space, connected to the ship's power supply system and integrated into a single control system. If necessary, they can work autonomously, without being connected to the ship's power grids.

According to military experts, modular ships, whose armament composition can change depending on the tasks being performed at the moment, will soon replace "classic" ships designed to solve any one combat mission. The use of container combat modules will significantly expand the range of tasks performed by a combat ship, depending on the current operational situation.

Comments

[Orange bigg]

Tests of combat models based on conventional 20- and 40-foot sea containers will take place at the Northern Fleet's maritime ranges and should be completed by the end of this year. Details of the upcoming tests were not disclosed.

According to the results of the tests, a decision will be made to install weapons systems and special equipment assembled inside conventional sea containers on various types of ships, the design of which provides for this.

Such containers can be placed on a truck or hidden somewhere on land, which is important in connection with the end of the INF Treaty, especially if Caliber and Zircon can fit there.

[Orkraider]

Interesting news.
If they really test and start buying, this will greatly bring down the position of the opinion that many units of our fleet are under-equipped and were built in vain. Plus good opportunities open up.

Hope for positive test results!

[Orange bigg]

The main thing is to start, and then everyone else will eventually catch up and start cramming their RSDs into containers. Essentially, a Pandora's box opens. Try it all later. So this is a double-edged sword.

[NordUral]

Tryndet about this was not necessary. Silently do and apply. There is nothing to test in tandem with the container, except for the lid mechanism.

[orionvitt]

Quote: OrangeBigg

And there, all the rest will eventually catch up and begin to cram their RSD into containers

Well, let them try. It seems to me that it is not so simple.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: Orkraider

If they really test and start purchasing, this will greatly bring down the position of the opinion that many units of our fleet are under-equipped and were built in vain.

No, it won't. The problem is that modular armament is extremely suboptimal even with functional modules. Only one preparation l / s is worth it.

[novel66]

and they tried somewhere, not the Norwegians, and it didn't work out

[Sanichsan]

Quote: novel xnumx

and they tried somewhere, not the Norwegians, and it didn't work out

not at all. they made specialized modules. yes, the idea turned out to be "not really" ...
here we are talking about standard shipping containers. this is very promising

[NOMADE]

I agree that this topic is interesting, but with maximum automation in terms of maintenance and weapons control. Ie, just with minimization of interaction with l / s.
Otherwise, it may turn out like in the USA with their LMS coastal modular vessel program

[Orkraider]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

Quote: Orkraider

If they really test and start purchasing, this will greatly bring down the position of the opinion that many units of our fleet are under-equipped and were built in vain.

No, it won't. The problem is that modular armament is extremely suboptimal even with functional modules. Only one preparation l / s is worth it.

Greetings Andrew!

We discussed this with you in due time, and I agree with the opinion that modularity in the form in which it is presented is “evil”. I, as well as you, consider it wrong to stop bookmarks 20380/385 and target 386 with its modules. Modules on main warships of the fleet IMHO - "evil" and "error".
But for arming auxiliary units and ships in a "dangerous" period - it is better to have than not to have. For example, put the module on an icebreaker and have a relative and conventional combat unit, which the enemy will have to take into account (And this is already a plus), or place the same module on a patrol ship. And at normal times, these modules are not needed, and ships run quietly without them and unnecessary load.
I accept and agree that issues with l / s, logistics, storage warehouses and bases where you can install, connect and test containers are not taken into account and will cost a pretty penny, but ..
In this case, when platforms for these modules are built and are being built, it is imprudent and wasteful not to have these modules. And for the auxiliary fleet, the variant of the modules is, in my opinion, preferable than, as in the good old days, preparation for the installation of art. systems and storage of those in warehouses, even if the modules are more diverse and variable.

Based on this, I am glad about this news. And in fact, the under-equipping of the misunderstanding in the form of project 22160 will be resolved. Even if this module will stand on them on a permanent basis - as not removable))))

[mehan]

During the "dangerous period" the storage locations of the modules will be covered preventively. And that's all.

[Piramidon]

Quote: mehan

During the "dangerous period" the storage locations of the modules will be covered preventively. And that's all.

In case of a "dangerous period", there are dispersion schemes.

[Orkraider]

Quote: mehan

During the "dangerous period" the storage locations of the modules will be covered preventively. And that's all.

Greetings!
Then it will no longer be a "dangerous period", but directly "the beginning of the end." Preventively cover the military bases, and everything, the power with nuclear weapons is equivalent to the third world war.

And I meant by the "dangerous period", the moment of aggravation of the situation in a limited conflict, when just the auxiliary fleet with weapons may be in demand, and there will be time to install these modules. The tension and conflict of the all-food grows and is felt, and intelligence is revealed.

[orionvitt]

Quote: Orkraider

And for the auxiliary fleet, the option of modules is in my opinion preferable

In which case, it is possible to turn ordinary civilian ships into combat units, without special costs.

[Mikhail m]

And in case of nothing, the Navy can offer ordinary containers to transport.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: Orkraider

I, as well as you, consider it wrong to stop bookmarks 20380/385 and target 386 with its modules. Modules on the main warships of the fleet are IMHO - "evil" and "error".

sorry, did you read the article for sure? how do your theses relate to this:

Tests of combat modules based on conventional 20- and 40-foot sea containers will be held at the sea ranges of the Northern Fleet and should be completed by the end of this year.

[Orkraider]

Welcome.

sorry, you read the article for sure

Exactly.
And if you also read the entire dialogue: my initial comment, Andrey's answer and my answer to his comment, you will understand the essence of this answer.

[Sanichsan]

that is, your dialogue is offtopic, not related to the article, right?
it's just that you are discussing something completely different from what the article is written about

[Orkraider]

Didn't read it all the same Exactly what the article is about.
But these wonderful standard containers inside hmm ... a corvette))

And about the attitude of both mine and Andrei to them, to them and the modularity system.

[Sanichsan]

received
good luck to you

[Orkraider]

Thank you and have a nice evening.
And we will believe in successful tests, and I personally hope that, in addition to successful tests, they will also be accepted into service.

[Denimax]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

Quote: Orkraider

If they really test and start purchasing, this will greatly bring down the position of the opinion that many units of our fleet are under-equipped and were built in vain.

No, it won't. The problem is that modular armament is extremely suboptimal even with functional modules. Only one preparation l / s is worth it.

Trained personnel will come with the module itself. Just connect the module to the radar and computer. They will explain the chain of command, well, and show the place of residence with allowance.

[Cyril G ...]

So where do you get the staff? The personnel should be included in the crew, be ready to act on alarms, etc. etc.

[stalki]

No, it won't. The problem is that modular armament is extremely suboptimal even with functional modules. Only one preparation l / s is worth it.

And if a full automatic machine? With such modern technologies of robotics and automation, of which there are more and more, all this may well become a reality. Sooner or later, fully autonomous, network-centric systems will occupy most of the military sphere.

[SHOPPING MALL]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

Quote: Orkraider

If they really test and start purchasing, this will greatly bring down the position of the opinion that many units of our fleet are under-equipped and were built in vain.

No, it won't. The problem is that modular armament is extremely suboptimal even with functional modules. Only one preparation l / s is worth it.

It depends on how these modules are viewed. If, like the Americans at LSC, when modules are assigned to different tasks, then it is not effective. Another option is the staged commissioning of ships. For example, a new ship is being built, ZRPK Pantsir-M is not ready. We do not wait for the completion of its development, but put the ship into operation without air defense missile systems, and then, in 2-3 years, we simply retrofit it, and "modularity" will simplify the task.

Another option is when ships, for example frigates, were released for four fleets, and the release of ZRPK or "Caliber" launchers is delayed. We can install them evenly across all fleets (existing), evenly understaffing the ships of all fleets, but in the event of a threat in one of the directions, transfer the weapons modules to the threatened direction.

+ simplified upgradeability (no need to cut the body).
+ it is possible to provide seats on other ships, including auxiliary ones, which can solve combat missions to a limited extent.

I considered this issue in the article:
Universal modules: solving the problem of disunity of the four fleets of Russia
https://topwar.ru/156005-universalnye-moduli-reshenie-problemy-razobschennosti-chetyreh-flotov-rossii.html

[Sanichsan]

Quote: AVM

It depends on how these modules are viewed. If, like the Americans at LSC, when modules are assigned to different tasks, then this is not effective. Another option is the staged commissioning of ships.

ummm .. and if you reread the article?

Tests of combat modules based on conventional 20- and 40-foot sea containers will be held at the sea ranges of the Northern Fleet and should be completed by the end of this year.

[bayard]

Well, it will not be tested on ... combat (by and large) ships, but on a patrolman and later on an icebreaker.
The first thing that came to my mind was when I read about universal containers, and did they decide to test a towed GAS in a container? For this patrolman, just such was ordered.
And rockets in a container are good, only this patrolman has poor seaworthiness. So you can't use it on a wave when rolling.
But on an icebreaker, container ship or large landing ship - it is quite.

[Phoenix040]

Modules make up the bulk of the cost of the ship, and at sea the ship can meet any enemy, for which one cannot be prepared in advance. So your dubious idea does not cancel universal ships in any way.

[IL-18]

Quote: Orkraider

Hope for positive test results!

There is a paradox here. It may turn out that according to the test results everything will be "better than already nenad". But for the daily work of crews, the creation of new logistics and training systems, difficulties will appear unambiguously. Who, for example, will be the operator of this container with tz. coverage l / s? Where is his place of permanent service (deployment)? What is the hierarchy in the structure of the chain of command (who is in charge on the ship if there is a container that determines the execution of the task)? And away we go ...
So the system is complex in terms of organization, but the fact that it will solve all the tasks facing the fleet is for sure. But I would test the system in the place of the military leadership. And there, as he experienced, he made a decision: from what and to what displacement, the range of tasks, and what to remove or add.

[Finches]

The container layout is pretty daunting! For example, Denmark has not been able to bring it to mind in the complex ... That is, a ship is a kind of platform on which containers with various weapons are strung! The containers can be transported by air and quickly enough to create a strike group anywhere in the world ocean and sharpened for a specific task - and it is very economical! But we need to test it in real conditions, I want to say a little that there were certain problems with container-type tropospheric stations in the Arctic ...

[Nehist]

The same Danes recognized modular construction as too expensive

[Finches]

On a Danish scale, this really did not justify itself, but on a Russian scale (I mean geography) there are a large number of hard-to-reach places ... Everything must be checked very well in practice and improved to the maximum - there is a sense in this!

[Nehist]

The difficulty is that for one ship you need to make several different sets with one or another equipment. It's easier to build several ships, it's oddly cheaper.

[Finches]

A specific ship is a specific ship, and a transforming ship is already misleading the enemy, at least.

[Nehist]

This is not utter nonsense. You are a career soldier, haven’t you forgotten why there are different types of troops? It's the same with ships.

[Finches]

The world is changing and approaches are changing! Weapons and principles of its use are changing! When tanks came to replace the horse, some also considered it utter stupidity!

[Nehist]

Can you see the signalman? Well, let's teach you about rocket launches, how to control a tank, an airplane and a submarine !!! And at the same time, deviation operations. How much of all this will you know perfectly? A sort of modular military

[Finches]

It's like a Swiss knife, you know! Not a man - a know-it-all

[Nehist]

This is how the PLO ship differs from the missile cruiser. And no modular containers will help here, too different tasks, and the composition of the crew. Or do you also propose to cook several crews for the same modular ship?

[Finches]

But for this test and will be carried out! To understand how and how deeply to expand the platform vessel layout!
The ship can be configured for a specific task that occurs at a given time. That is, you do not need to hold the shock and anti-submarine ships at the same time! We need a shock - containers with the appropriate set If it is necessary to organize anti-submarine defense, we change the container and change the team ... But practical tests are needed - this is natural!

[Nehist]

The team must be prepared this time, the team must be well-coordinated and constantly work with the entrusted technique. To prepare, for example, two full-fledged crews is not incredibly expensive, and changing only any warhead is not effective, since the crew will not be well-coordinated. You will not be a communications company to break through the defenses, you need tanks. Why give you tanks, you put your signalmen there and go ahead. Do you fight a lot?

[Finches]

Dear, why did you disperse - the concept has been developed, the industry is producing the appropriate products, the Navy is going to tests ... And about tanks - I personally have a corresponding VUS - a gunner operator for a T-72 tank, so I can get into a tank!

[Nehist]

Because to hammer nails with a microscope is not utter nonsense. Another cut of the budget. Offer the next universal freaks. And as you know, lack of versatility does not lead to anything good

[Finches]

I will once again hint to you - perhaps you do not notice - the world does not stand still!

[keleg]

Airplanes fly with different rockets on the suspension. And bombs. And hanging tanks. All this has features of application - but for some reason the pilots cope. Starting with some degree of automation, sailors will also cope.

[mehan]

And the Shvets and the reaper?))))
Imagine an Il-2, with air-to-air missiles. What do you think he collects a Fokker?

[bayard]

I know one such person - he shot down eight enemy aircraft on the Il-2, with 288 sorties - Ivan Ivanovich Zinoviev, Hero of the Soviet Union, finished his colonel service, and commanded a squadron in WWII by the end of the war.
And these modules are justified only for this amazing patrolman and, of course, icebreakers - as standard weapons.
Well, as an option for the militarization of mobilized ships in a threatened and war period. In case of lack of demand on the ship - shoot from the parking / storage area.

[mehan]

One such.

[bayard]

There were others, but I personally know the descendants of this very thing.
But an attack aircraft is an attack aircraft, it is for assault and bomb strikes, and air combat ... is not the most desirable option.
As for the topic of modularity itself, modularity is useful for convenience during modernization, and not for the regular change of modules for a specific knowledge base. For this ship - a forced measure, because in its initial state it is not suitable for anything except patrolling in peacetime.

[mehan]

I do not deny modularity, a useful feature.
But these containers ... zilch

[Nehist]

Uh-huh, that's just for an attack, as a rule, an attack aircraft is attracted and not a strategic bomber

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Finches

Dear, why did you disagree - the concept has been developed, the industry is producing appropriate products, the Fleet is going to tests ..

And we will get the same results as in Denmark: a ship with replaceable modules is too expensive, a "multifunctional" crew is impossible, different modules have different numbers of calculations. As a result, the StanFlex concept turned out to be stillborn: each ship is given its own set of modules, which is screwed on tightly and changes only when upgraded to more modern ones.

[Finches]

During its development, StanFlex errors were also analyzed, I would not rush to conclusions ahead of time!

[Tusv]

Quote: Alexey RA

each ship is given its own set of modules, which is screwed on tightly

And you look from the point of view of BDK or UDC. The Marines are simply seconded and the equipment is not screwed. Or look at an anti-submarine turntable. No one is screwed to the deck and the helicopter crew can change, like the helicopter itself. It's the same here. The crew of the container was seconded, the required container was loaded and set sail

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Tusv

The crew of the container was seconded, the required container was loaded and set sail

That is, we will need to have ashore a set of modules, a set of calculations for them and a couple of ships, where these calculations will be trained and "maintain the class". Actually, after realizing all this, the Danes were blown away.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: Alexey RA

That is, we will need to have ashore a set of modules, a set of calculations for them and a couple of ships, where these calculations will be trained and "maintain the class".

right. what is the difficulty? what's the difference between an Iskander and a container with calibers? a container launcher is an independent combat unit and its crew can maintain its combat readiness both at sea and on land.

Quote: Alexey RA

Actually, after realizing all this, the Danes were blown away.

not. the Danes were blown away when it became clear to them that most of the modules lay dead weight in the warehouse and, due to the lack of constant operation, did not have constant calculations.
modules in standard shipping containers do not have such problems. they do not need a specialized ship to apply and train calculations. they don't need a ship at all

[Cympak]

This is already a plus: you can drive a large series of ships of the same type, with the possibility of their further rapid upgrade without re-laying cable routes for new equipment.
Those. we need a project like the German MEKO, not American LCS. And throw out the containers, replacing them with standard foundations, to which power cables, VVD and water with standard connectors are connected.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: Cympak

Those. we need a project like the German MEKO, not American LCS.

not. we just need an ordinary container ship or a tractor to transport standard 20 and 40 foot containers. feel the difference!

[strannik1985]

Dear, why did you disperse - the concept is developed

The fact of the matter is that the concept in the specific conditions of the Danish KVMS during the Cold War, when all Danish ships had two main tasks - target designation and lifting / laying mines. In such conditions, containers may and are needed, and then we use large landing ships for setting mines.

[sg7s]

not sea, land, I can be wrong. Is it a large number of the warhead team? Why should the rest of the team learn to launch just a different class of rockets?

[sir.jonn]

Quote: Nehist

The team must be prepared this time, the team must be well-coordinated and constantly work with the entrusted technique. To prepare, for example, two full-fledged crews is not incredibly expensive, and changing only any warhead is not effective, since the crew will not be well-coordinated. You will not be a communications company to break through the defenses, you need tanks.

Rave! Civilian shipowners (commercial, fishing, and scientific) have long mastered the substitution of certain groups of crew members depending on the work performed and the equipment involved. Modular ships will simply not carry a bunch of unused equipment and feed unused crew members, which will increase autonomy. And what about coherence, to crush a bubble or sharpen the fringes with a loafer who wanders around the ship and distracts busy crew members, this is not coherence, but sloppiness and regardless of the direction of the ship's activities.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Nehist

And no modular containers will help here, too different tasks, and the composition of the crew.

What's wrong with the crew? What can you offer.

[Phoenix040]

The Swiss knife has the entire set with him, it can be compared with a universal frigate, and not with modular stupidity, the lion's share of the modules of which will lie on the shore all the time, and service personnel will loiter around them, who will have to pay for idle time

[d ^ Amir]

something after the "Horizon-M" ???? I served on it

[Finches]

You are a little confused - you served in the "Sever" communications system on the first-generation "Gorizont-M" stationary TRS, in our school a whole platoon in the company was assigned to train officers of this system! And I'm talking about modern TRS modular type on the basis of P-423 ... But not the point! As a communications operator, respect and respect

[d ^ Amir]

thanks, it means the topic is not dead, Amur-1 station

[d ^ Amir]

and yes, I just remembered, we were told about the analogue of "Horizon-M" on the same principle, but fully automatic, without people, White Alice seems to be, it turns out ours did the same, well, that's logical and that's ... I'm a plumber there served ...

[Sanichsan]

Quote: Finches

For example, Denmark has not been able to bring it to mind in the complex ... That is, a ship is a kind of platform on which containers with various weapons are strung!

Can't you see the difference between the Danish concept of a ship with a modular weapon system and the idea of ​​placing weapons in standard cargo containers?

[Zeev zeev]

Has the Geneva Convention prohibiting camouflaging weapons against civilian objects already been canceled?

[Finches]

And you write to the League of Sexual Minorities - it can help!

[Zeev zeev]

Do you understand that a violation of a convention by you will lead to a violation of the conventions and against you?

[Finches]

These rules are constantly being violated against us, so this is a weak argument!

[Zeev zeev]

What rules of the Geneva Convention are violated in relation to Russia? American civilian planes bombed Russian cities? Have rockets been fired at Russian ships from British cargo terminals? Soldiers of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in civilian clothes stormed Russian bases? How exactly was the convention violated against you?

[Klingon]

Quote: ZeevZeev

What rules of the Geneva Convention are violated in relation to Russia? American civilian planes bombed Russian cities? Have rockets been fired at Russian ships from British cargo terminals? Soldiers of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in civilian clothes stormed Russian bases? How exactly was the convention violated against you?

I'll tell you: the striped ones disguise their biochemical laboratories developing biological weapons as "health facilities", "research centers" and so on. and the admission of any control commissions from WHO is prohibited. Everywhere we have already stumbled across, in Georgia, Kazakhstan, Banderlogia, so there is no need to make holy angels out of striped snakes here. By the way, are there any angels in Judaism?

[Zeev zeev]

If these are biochemical laboratories for the development of bacteriological weapons, then why build them in Georgia, Kazakhstan or Ukraine? For drunken Mykola to demolish the fence at KrAZ and climb into the storage? To transport specialists with high security clearance to Kostanay, where Chinese intelligence can catch them right on the street? Is there a lack of biomaterial? So in any New York shelter in bulk, and from all over the world. Or is the air in Rustavi so healthy that only there the necessary bacteria will grow?
And about the angels. What does the word "seraphim" (this is one of the types of angels, if that) mean in Russian?

[Finches]

You don't make yourself a clown - in my memory there are two Chechen companies, Yugoslavia, Georgia and Ukraine ... I will pardon you - I taught my soldiers, cadets, and now I teach students - Anglo-Saxons, this is from the devil! And here are thousands of examples from history - and not your provocative snot here! And there is exhaust! Just don't tear your shirt here now for racism and all sorts of nonsense - otherwise I will remember eugenics and remember where this science was born, together with racism ... These are God's tricks - if there is a chosen nation of God, then there is also a devil's chosen nation! And under it lies the entire West today - because the temptation of the devil is always easier to give in than to be imbued with faith in God - that the Anglo-Saxons did not bother! What is the Geneva Convention - it is interpreted this way - in its favor all the time ... If Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Belgrade, Tripoli ... bomb or water Vietnam with orange - this is always correct according to your Geneva concepts, and if Russia responds to the death of their soldiers from multiple launch rocket launchers answers - as in Georgia - this is already a violation of international law!

[Zeev zeev]

Well, I also remember your two putsches, your two Chechen wars, Yugoslavia (from Vukovar to Kosovo), Karabakh, Abkhazia, Georgia ... Fir-trees, I even remember Afghan. But that's not the point. Have you signed the convention? Do it. Not doing it? Don't be surprised at the consequences.

[Finches]

I didn’t mention Afghanistan, Transnistria - because I didn’t participate! We don’t owe anyone anything - remember this for the rest of your life! But no - you are welcome to visit, like the Turks, Swedes, Napoleon, Hitler ... Do not be offended - we will kill like your ancestors! And if in peace - then we ask for a visit! And if with rudeness, do not be offended - we will kill! We will die ourselves, but you will not live! Do not be offended by me, please - but we will kill for an adult - we will burn Moscow again, but we will not surrender to the adversary!

[Zeev zeev]

My ancestors were killed only by the Nazis during the Second World War, some at the front, some in the ghetto. Are you one of these? Are you going to kill us again? I VERY advise not.

[Finches]

And my ancestors, your ancestors, at the cost of their lives - from the stoves of the Nazis and pulled them out - apparently so that you would be here today as a gratitude and mock!

[Finches]

That is, you are a Jew - just write that God's chosen one - I respect your people, even though you fell under the Anglo-Saxons, but still! Otherwise, it’s not clear at all - but it’s clear - lie under the Anglo-Saxons and swamp them for them, but all the same - I, personally, respect the Jews!

[Zeev zeev]

My ancestors fought in the same way as yours. And in the same way, they dragged the Nazis and Russians, and Poles, and Belarusians, and gypsies, and so on and so forth from the ovens. The same ancestors and relatives of mine, who did not manage to escape to evacuation or were not in the army (or partisans), were killed in the ghetto.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: ZeevZeev

The same ancestors and relatives of mine, who did not manage to escape to evacuation or were not in the army (or partisans), were killed in the ghetto.

and now you're in Israel, right? and bomb the Hezbollah on the territory of sovereign neighboring states without asking their permission, right? and put a big cut bolt on the resolutions of some conferences and leagues, right?

[3danimal]

This is how Rogozin proposed to blow up rockets in mines?
Let me remind you that Hitler believed that the German people should die with him, but not surrender. Those who thought otherwise were called traitors. But now, years later, let's answer the question: who really cared about the Germans?

[Finches]

You, I beg your pardon, who? Anglo-Saxon, Jew, Ukrainian ... Russian, but sold to the Anglo-Saxons, who are you? I commanded a platoon, a company, a battalion ... no complaints for 25 years! However, I formulated it a little incorrectly, I asked the question incorrectly - what did you want to clarify with me specifically? Forgive me generously if I am a little wrong, I am already tired of pseudo-fighters and liberals today! More and more I understand Iosif Vissarionovich ... With every minute of dialogue on the site, I confirm the correctness of the sentences to a couple of tens of thousands of repressed ...

[3danimal]

Let me remind you that there were millions of repressed. Are they chopping the forest - do the chips fly? That's just the way it always happens.
At first, Stalin was not satisfied with the "bourgeois" (not only the manufacturers, but in general everyone who had some kind of independence and means of production), then the peasants, then the prisoners, then many Red Army men in general, who decided that after all the tests, internal The "vice" can be weakened. You don't know much about the atmosphere of fear in those years, it seems.
I just do not like this kind of reasoning, with disdain for millions of my (remember) people.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

Let me remind you that there were millions of repressed.

so badly repressed that under Stalin there were fewer people in prisons than under Yeltsin.

Quote: 3danimal

At first, Stalin was not satisfied with the "bourgeois" (not only the manufacturers, but in general everyone with some kind of independence and means of production)

if they suddenly forgot, then the figures you listed did not suit the workers and peasants, in fact, those who were exploited by these very owners of the means of production using the property of the instruments of production and land. Let me remind you that those same workers and peasants were 90% of the country's population and it ended with the 1917 revolution.

Quote: 3danimal

then - the peasants,

fists? rural usurers who enslaved the peasantry through loans at 50% and ordinary banditry when knocking out debts, these are real angels and saints for modern liberoids

Quote: 3danimal

then prisoners

collaborators? you didn’t manage to rehabilitate them even under Yeltsin, as well as Kolchak. and! not! The SS member Pantsia were able to but was soon convicted again.

Quote: 3danimal

then, and many Red Army men in general, who decided that after all the tests, the internal "vice" could be weakened

"unfair" charges for rape and looting? terrible Stalin imprisoned marauders and rapists and this is unfair? Seriously?
somewhere I've already heard it ... hmmm .. ah! remembered! this is a lie!

Quote: 3danimal

You don't know much about the atmosphere of fear in those years, it seems.

well from what. your authority Solzhenitsen writes about this quite well. still writes that they lived well and did not know anything about it. he himself writes that he learned about the arrests and the activities of the NKVD only after he wrote a denunciation against himself in order to fade from the front, and before that everything was fine with him and was not afraid of anyone. this scum from the heart took advantage of its official position and did not blow a mustache.

Quote: 3danimal

I just do not like this kind of reasoning, with disdain for millions of my (remember) people.

your own?!? is it your "own" factory owners who kept the workers for livestock and forced them to work for 14-16 hours without days off and holidays? it is the landowners you have "their" who traded the peasants? Is it your "own" fists, who were engaged in banditry? it is Bandera you have "svoi" who were engaged in mass murders? eot maraders and rapists you have "your own" ???
this is how much you need to be a moral monster to have such "friends"? apparently you need to be a Russian liberal intellectual to have such (!!!) "friends"

[Cyril G ...]

Quote: ZeevZeev

your two Chechen wars,

Did we organize them?

Quote: ZeevZeev

Yugoslavia (from Vukovar to Kosovo),

Are we there too?

[Zeev zeev]

And who organized it for you? Dastardly Anglo-Saxons? Oh really? Was it Roosevelt or Churchill who deported Chechens and Ingush from their native villages to the Kazakh steppes? And Grozny and Bamut were bombed by the aircraft of the US Marine Corps? Or maybe it's enough to blame others for everything?

[Cyril G ...]

Quote: ZeevZeev

Or maybe it's enough to blame others for everything?

Good advice. Just start with yourself. Show an example so to speak .. And what's not news, Israel is bombing someone ... Well, well. Only I speak here in such cases. Well, they are bombing. So this is their problem. They have such a hobby. But you have itching all the time. Why would it suddenly?

Quote: ZeevZeev

deported Chechens and Ingush from their native villages to the Kazakh steppes?

You have multiple sclerosis. Forgot why it was done. Well, what would you not jump too much, I will remind, for example, about the internment of American citizens of Japanese origin, just because they have yellow muzzles ...

[3danimal]

Did the Chechens and Crimeans return home immediately after the end of the war? (Compared with Japanese emigrants in the United States of those years).

[Cyril G ...]

We must compare my dear. The Nipponians were thrown into the camps just in case, but we got to work. Have you already decided to forget what happened in the USSR at the end of the 40s?

[Zeev zeev]

Why were women, children and old people thrown into the bare steppe?

[Sanichsan]

Quote: ZeevZeev

Why were women, children and old people thrown into the bare steppe?

don't be shy! burn to the fullest! declare that they planted and drowned on the barge, no less!

[Zeev zeev]

You have multiple sclerosis. Forgot why it was done. Well, what would you not jump too much, I will remind, for example, about the internment of American citizens of Japanese origin, just because they have yellow muzzles ...

The excuse for the deportation was a type of punishment of the people (the whole people) for cooperation with the Germans. In this regard, a couple of questions arise:
A) Why not deported Georgians, Armenians, Azerbaijanis, who had a whole SS legion.
Q) And why were Koreans, Kurds, Pontic Greeks and others deported who did not cooperate with the Nazis?
C) There were deportations in the USSR even before the war. Semirechye and Terek Cossacks, who were expelled from their native villages by Stalin's order or were the Ingres of the Leningrad Region sold to Mannerheim in 1937?
And since we are talking about the Japanese in the United States, I advise you to carefully study the topic before declaring an outright lie.
For instance. As far as I remember, naturalized Japanese were interned in special camps, that is, without full-fledged American citizenship, but only with a residence permit. Only the Japanese of the West Coast of the United States were interned, that is, the same "yellow-faced" from Kansas or Pennsylvania continued to live a normal life, had all the same rights, and was even drafted into the ranks of the American army on a general basis. The decision to internment could be challenged in court. And they challenged and received an exemption from internment. Compensation was paid for the lost property, and the houses and businesses owned by the Japanese returned to their owners. Are we going to continue or that's enough? Or can we compare it with the fate of the Volga Germans?

[Cyril G ...]

Quote: ZeevZeev

And since we are talking about the Japanese in the United States, I advise you to carefully study the topic before declaring an outright lie.
For example. As far as I remember, naturalized Japanese were interned in special camps, that is, without full American citizenship, but only with a residence permit.

Oh, those storytellers. Why are you lying? 62 percent were US citizens.

Quote: ZeevZeev

Are we going to continue or that's enough?

It will be necessary and we will continue.

then - the prisoners, then - and many Red Army men in general, who decided that after all the tests, the internal "vice" could be weakened. You don't know much about the atmosphere of fear in those years, it seems.

About the atmosphere just do not know nifiga personally, you probably don't want to .... As for the prisoners? And the problem is what? Yes, everyone went through the filtration. And most of them are quite successful. You have stamps in your head from Ogorkovsky. Although it seems like take and read the documents. But you are not above that. To loosen up the inner grip is it synonymous with banditry? It was so. You can't get out the words from the song.

[3danimal]

A picture from the past: my mother, at the age of 7, wrote a letter to Khrushchev (with criticism), the letter was seen by her grandfather, a teacher. I was very scared. Said: “Do you understand what could have happened? We could all get hurt. " I suspect these are the times of a "carefree and happy" life under the rule of a former underground fighter and a criminal.
Much effort is now being made to whitewash Stalin. Based on the "blank slate" of those living today relative to those times. But in some places the "connection of generations" remains. If she's wrong

[Sanichsan]

Quote: ZeevZeev

The excuse for the deportation was a type of punishment of the people (the whole people) for cooperation with the Germans. In this regard, a couple of questions arise:
A) Why not deported Georgians, Armenians, Azerbaijanis, who had a whole SS legion.
Q) And why were Koreans, Kurds, Pontic Greeks and others deported who did not cooperate with the Nazis?

it looks like you have some kind of dissonance on the national-Zionist soil. relax, take a deep breath and try to abstract from the national reason for the deportation. just imagine that you were not deported for nationality
for example the Cossacks, who are not even a nationality, but estate, deported for fierce counter-revolutionary sentiments, Germans due to the proximity of the border and unreliability, Crimean Tatars for cooperation with the Nazis.
PS
Let me remind you that it was the "bloody Bolsheviks" who equated Jews in rights with the rest of the citizens of the RSFSR, abolished the Pale of Settlement and supported the creation of Israel ... and now you are trying hard to draw analogies between the deportations of Stalin and Nazism ...
what does it look like? in my opinion, an abomination ...

[3danimal]

So you did not answer: what kind of US troops turned Grozny into ruins 20 years ago?

[Finches]

It was a fairly humane action - not a total destruction of the people, which was transferred by 70% to the Germans - as others did, including the Anglo-Saxons, but a humane action! Here you, God's chosen ones, beloved Germans (relatives of the Anglo-Saxons simply burned hundreds of thousands in ovens), at that time there was no time for sentimentality, when there was a war with the aim of total destruction of the Russian people and the entire Slavic civilization - and this was the only way out - not to destroy people lost in their betrayal, but save the people! But the Anglo-Saxons were not steaming - Free wind in India, a nuclear bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki ... Feel the difference? Once I asked a Chechen - what would you choose deportation to Kazakhstan or execution? He thought ... But the fact remains - more than half of the Chechens went over to the side of the Wehrmacht! And at that time there was no time for spillikins and no time for slobbering human rights!

[3danimal]

So the Nazis burned the filth. Do you justify forced resettlement (in which at least 10% died) on the grounds that the Nazis were even more cruel?

[Zeev zeev]

That is, you again equate yourself with the Nazis? They say, we didn’t shoot, but they did?

[Sanichsan]

Quote: Finches

Germans (relatives of the Anglo-Saxons

not just relatives! Angles are Germans, and Saxons are Germans. Anglo-Saxons are Germans

[mmaxx]

And they were deported for charity work. Yeah.

[aszzz888]

Zyablitsev (Eugene) Yesterday, 20:00
+10
Do not make yourself a clown ... -

Eugene, this is his -ZeevZeev (Zeev) Yesterday, 18:27 - "crown". When he has nothing to answer, he leaves the topic, stupid, and asks a lot of questions not related to the topic.

[Zeev zeev]

That's it, Mikhalych. That is, it was me who went from topic to politot, and not you. Well, okay, whatever you say.

[3danimal]

And what is the source of this conspiracy?

[Galleon]

It is said in the article: they do not have their own power supply and reception devices. The control system must be connected to them. What will you connect on the truck?

[The popuas]

If necessary, they can work autonomously, without being connected to the ship's power grids. Did you ignore the last paragraph?

[Galleon]

You know, yes, I decided to ignore it. Missile or torpedo weapons without a central control unit are not used. For 57mm art, full autonomy will still come off, but this is a self-defense weapon, close combat. That's why I ignored

[Cyril G ...]

Quote: Galleon

For 57mm art, full autonomy will still come off, but this is a self-defense weapon, close combat.

Here's another solution that is quite adequate as a means of air defense for mobilized ships and weapons for auxiliary ships of the fleet, and at the same time, it can be used as a means of air defense for basing areas. The maximum requires connecting the ship's network, and that's not a fact ..

[Sanichsan]

Quote: Cyril G ...

Here's another solution for you, which is quite adequate as a means of air defense of mobilized vessels and weapons of the auxiliaries.

actually an article about this

read about the club. article about him. perhaps already about further development ...

[Klingon]

there is also a container version of the Caliber Club-K. it is in ordinary railway / sea containers that the installation for 4 missiles is mounted

[Sanichsan]

Quote: Klingon

there is also a container version of the Caliber Club-K.

they write about them in the article
it's strange that for such a bunch of comments, no one understood what it was about

[Alexander X]

That's right! Will not track the adversary. And our otvetka will always be at their side.

[Victor_B]

Tests of combat models based on conventional 20- and 40-foot sea containers will take place at the Northern Fleet's maritime ranges and should be completed by the end of this year.

Finally!
And then cartoons drew 10 years ago.
Models were even taken to exhibitions.

[Mountain shooter]

What is this? Any dry cargo ship anywhere in the world can turn into a missile carrier? Can autonomous ones even stand on the pier? Anywhere in the port in Cuba or Nicaragua?

[Marconi41]

Quote: Mountain Shooter

Can autonomous ones even stand on the pier? Anywhere in the port in Cuba or Nicaragua?

Autonomous ones are best sent by third-party transports from one point of the world to another. You never know where it comes in handy.

[smaug78]

Any dry cargo ship anywhere in the world can turn into a missile carrier?

As soon as radars of various types are installed, target designation systems, etc.

[Brylevsky]

Any dry cargo ship anywhere in the world can turn into a missile carrier?

Of course not. Any sea container, like a ship, has an owner; the position of any vessel, as well as the container on it, can be tracked, and for this you do not need to use any extraordinary means: the positions of all cargo ships are practically on-line, and the movement of containers is tracked according to the corresponding databases of their carriers; it is theoretically possible to stuff something into a container that is not in the Cargo Declaration for it, but ... if the cargo is customs, then it is inspected by customs in 100% of cases; and if the container is coaster, what's the point of shoving missiles into it? I personally witnessed when American SVRs (border guards + customs in one person) came to us on board in the United States and simply opened several containers that seemed to them "suspicious" ... I repeat that almost every container involved in international multimodal transportation has its own owner, who is personally interested in ensuring that his property is not used unauthorized: do you always know who lives in your house and drives your car? Good: let's say a container "with a surprise" is put on a container ship somewhere. Who will press the "start" button? Is the captain a Croat? Filipino sailor or ukroinets mechanic? And if someone from the ship's crew "leaks" information about a difficult container, who needs it? Can you imagine the consequences? For the country whose flag the ship is carrying. And for the operator of this ill-fated container.
The article dealt with something else. Namely, the use of standard containers will significantly simplify their placement on ships and vessels, as well as greatly simplify transport logistics.

[Nastia makarova]

loaded 10 containers on a Russian ship and sent them to Cuba, the ship's crew, disguised as military, indicated that they were carrying cranberries, these containers will also be welcomed in a special order in Cuba

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Nastia Makarova

loaded onto a Russian ship

Already funny.
The times of huge shipping companies remained in the USSR. Now the Navy could not find ships flying the Russian flag and with a Russian home port even for mobilization in the Syrian Express - they had to buy from the Turks.

[Nastia makarova]

well, I think the ship will be found if it is necessary to use these containers

[Brylevsky]

It is not a problem to find a vessel for the transportation of containers. It is even possible under the Russian flag ... in the Far East there are still a couple of shipping companies that have a small fleet of universal dry cargo vessels and small container ships for 150-350 TEU, you just pay them money and they will be happy to rent out their ships to anyone. ..the problem will begin when military crews begin to land on these ships. Because no one will entrust military weapons to a civilian sailor in peacetime ... therefore, the military will appear on the ships. From this moment on, the secrecy of the "operation" can be forgotten. Please read my comment above about maritime working documents, as well as counterintelligence, which works in any self-respecting country. A ship with such a "crew" will simply not be allowed into any port (well, who needs problems at home?); therefore, it will need to bunker, supply it with provisions, spare parts and the like somewhere far out to sea, outside the 12-mile zone, and who and what will do this? You don't need to be an intelligence genius to understand that if a container ship does not enter the port (!), Then something is wrong with it, to put it mildly ... By the way, what flag will the container ship carry? Hopefully not the Russian Navy? But what about the military crew on it and the weapons? And how can all this be linked to the secrecy of the event?

[Brylevsky]

This was possible in the middle of the last century, but not now, unfortunately. And that's why. Each seafarer has a so-called SID, "Seafarer's Identity Card", it is international, that is, its owner goes through all the world's databases of competent authorities; it is impossible to get it without completing training at an accredited institution. The educational institution itself is also "whitewashed" wherever possible, and passes through all conceivable and inconceivable world registers; most seafarers are required to have international visas ... have you ever received an American C1D visa, have you been in a conversation at the US Embassy? Yes, of course, the military man, behind whom the State will stand, will be equipped with all conceivable and inconceivable documents, and there will be an appropriate place for him on the ship, but this man will no longer be just a military man, but, most likely, a scout - a non-ligal, because otherwise it is impossible to legally obtain all maritime working documents that will pass through all instances. How do you imagine an officer who studies in absentia as a sailor? Well, how can you clearly explain, for example, to the Americans, something like this biographical fact: "I was a soldier for ten years, then suddenly I quit and became a sailor." Overseas, too, are not fools working and counterintelligence also works for them.

[Zeev zeev]

And as soon as this is revealed, all ships flying the Russian flag or with a Russian home port will be considered a legitimate military target, and all Russian civilian sailors will be automatically deprived of international certification and they will not go beyond Kaliningrad.

[Deck]

Any dry cargo ship anywhere in the world can turn into a missile carrier?

Of course it will! Into the target. Any vessel flying the Russian flag will be a target.

[Senka naughty]

What is this? Any dry cargo ship anywhere in the world can turn into a missile carrier? wassat And autonomous ones can stand on the pier at all? Anywhere in the port in Cuba or Nicaragua?

I suppose they have been on dry-cargo ships for a long time, containers on train trains, they were practiced even in the USSR.

[Zeev zeev]

In the USSR, there were such developments, but no further projects were made in the drawings.

[Cyril G ...]

Quote: ZeevZeev

In the USSR, there were such developments, but no further projects were made in the drawings.

On the ships of the MMF, Atomflot and the Ministry of Fishery, mobile sets of weapons were prepared in case of a special period. Mobile kits were tested on the main ship, dismantled and stored .. They were prepared on the basis of having kits for 50 percent of the ships.

[Brylevsky]

I suppose they have been on dry cargo ships for a long time,

You are mistaken, there is nothing like that on our container ships and dry cargo vessels. On ours, I mean vessels flying the Russian flag. I have been working for several years on our container ships as a senior officer, that is, all the cargo passes through me: I assure you, I have not seen any "special" containers in all the years of work. He transported military cargo, equipment and ammunition, but all these were completely open transportation, that is, with all the accompanying documents on them. What is the point of "making a fence" when everything can be transported quite officially and without problems? And it will never be like that ... a ship with such a "secret cargo" immediately becomes an enemy "combat unit", with all the consequences for it.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: Mountain Shooter

Can autonomous ones even stand on the pier? Anywhere in the port in Cuba or Nicaragua?

take it cooler! can drive a truck somewhere on the road to the EU

[Nehist]

We discussed not so long ago the notorious modules. As a result, countries where modular ships are used recognized them as ineffective and unnecessarily expensive. We also decided to step on the same rake?

[Mountain shooter]

Quote: Nehist

modular design found them ineffective and unnecessarily expensive

It was about warships. These are standard size containers. Floats to itself ... to the address. Many containers for frozen food are equipped with self-contained power plants.

[Nehist]

You hear the ringing, but you don't know where it is. Packaging does not matter. Moreover, they are not sabirated to be installed on any ships other than military ones.

[Mountain shooter]

Quote: Nehist

You hear the ringing but don't know where it is

Rudeness is not an argument in a dispute. The article clearly states, not only military, and possibly autonomous.

[Nehist]

Reread the article carefully, especially the last paragraph.

[DenZ]

Quote: Nehist

You hear the ringing, but you don't know where it is. Packaging does not matter. Moreover, they are not sabirated to be installed on any ships other than military ones.

Apparently, you heard the ringing. Container systems can be installed on ANY vehicles. http://bastion-karpenko.narod.ru/CLUB-K.html

[Nehist]

Did you read the article carefully?

[3danimal]

What do you think about the transformation of civilian ships into targets, after the first fact of using such "containers" in any conflict?

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

What do you think about the transformation of civilian ships into targets, after the first fact of using such "containers" in any conflict?

hmmm .. and civilian ships once did not turn into targets during wars? Let me remind you that without any containers with missiles.

[3danimal]

All ships? In the last 50 years, please give examples

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

In the last 50 years, give examples

why not 1 year? over the past 50 years have there been wars between maritime powers that have had the ability to affect shipping? not.
and when did the powers that had the opportunity to influence shipping fought? 80 years ago. the second world, and the first. no one bothered about the civilians and the military, they drowned what they could reach

but my question remained valid. you never answered. Do you have an example of a war in which the parties have the ability to sink other people's ships and they do not sink civil ships of the hostile party?
PS
answering a question with a question is vulgar

[3danimal]

Examples in wars from the 2nd half of the 20th century to the present day.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

Examples in wars from the 2nd half of the 20th century to the present day.

this is your answer to my question "do you have an example of a war in which the parties have the ability to sink foreign ships and they do not sink the enemy's civil ships?"
you do not find that this is a very strange answer.
Or is it you again trying to evade the question with a question?
that is, the period of world wars does not suit you due to the fact that it contradicts your absurd assumptions that during the war they will not shoot at civilian ships? during the last world war 1936-1945 they shot and in a new war there will be.
well, in principle, with your funny wagging, you already confirm my case

[3danimal]

The WWII was attended by the Nazis, whom the frostbitten leadership freed from conscience and any restrictions imposed by conventions. Throwing back into wilder times. Many of those war criminals justified themselves with orders before "trying on" the noose (the court was not convinced by the excuses).
Besides, the war was about attrition. These 2 facts gave the mentioned events.
But as for threatening military targets, the hunt for "passengers" was not conducted. Here, their obligatory destruction / seizure (and in a threatening situation there will be the first option) is assumed as they pose a threat to "ours". The difference is in priorities.
Isn't that so obvious?

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

The WWII was attended by the Nazis, whom the frostbitten leadership freed from conscience and any restrictions imposed by conventions.

how interesting .. and in the 1st world, too, "frostbitten leadership"? have you heard about Emden?
tell me, and in the USA, which drowned Japanese and German transports, also "frostbitten leadership"? and in Britain that drowned Japanese and Italian transports, too, "frostbitten leadership"? well, in the USSR, which drowned the Norwegian Finnish, German and Turkish transports, it was definitely a "frostbitten leadership"!
you are so confused in your liberal attempts that you do not see the obvious. in the event of war, the transport fleet is an important element of the enemy's economic base and will be destroyed in any case, regardless of whether these ships have weapons or not it has always been, is and will be.

Quote: 3danimal

But as for threatening military targets, the hunt for "passengers" was not conducted. Here, their obligatory destruction / seizure (and in a threatening situation there will be the first option) is assumed as they pose a threat to "ours".

containers are carried by transport ships, not passenger ships. Well, for the record ... transport ships are subject to a mandatory attack because it causes direct economic damage to the enemy. haven't you thought about it? but the military have long thought about this and transports for them are the same primary goals as military ships. Or what do you think, in the event of a war between China and the United States, the Chinese will not heat American transports and vice versa? Or maybe we, in the event of a war with the United States, will wait while the United States will deliver troops and ammunition from the United States to Europe?
liberals are so funny in their naivety

[3danimal]

Installing weapons on transports will make them a higher priority target. With great vulnerability in comparison with the military.
Do you think a war with the United States is necessary and possible? For what purposes? (The victory of communism in the world?) And the war of attrition?
I love the audience, which is in a hurry to "identify" the opponent by sticking a label dear to his heart

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

Installing weapons on transports will make them a higher priority target.

once again ... obvious fact. during the war, transport under the flag of a hostile country will be drowned by definition, regardless of whether it is armed or not. if there is no weapon on the transport, then he carries ammunition or enemy equipment, if the transport carries materials, then in a few days these materials will become weapons, ammunition or uniforms and it again needs to be drowned. this has been known for over 100 years, but it seems not to everyone
what do you mean by a higher priority goal? under what conditions do you think the transport will not be attacked?

Quote: 3danimal

Do you consider a war with the United States necessary and possible?

I think this scenario is quite possible. You are not?

Quote: 3danimal

For what purpose?

The United States is losing world domination and can no longer regain control by economic means, which means sooner or later they will switch to forceful methods

Quote: 3danimal

And the war of attrition?

What else could there be between the superpowers? small victorious? if the strongest grapple, the war will be fought until unconditional surrender.

Quote: 3danimal

I love the audience, which is in a hurry to "identify" the opponent by sticking a label dear to his heart

everything is very simple, do not write nonsense and you will not be identified as a carrier of nonsense
your label you honestly deserve

[3danimal]

What else could there be between the superpowers?

Are you talking about the US war with China? (There are two of them now).
Most likely, everything will be limited to maritime conflicts. Both have something to lose, so that the finger will not reach for the "button".

The United States is losing world domination and can no longer regain control by economic means, which means sooner or later they will switch to forceful methods of request

Iron logic. And the only true one, I suppose? What works have influenced its formation?

I think this scenario is quite possible. You are not? laughing

I believe that they will not start the conflict first. (Please do not remember Iraq and Libya, it is somewhat offensive to compare the Russian Federation with this trifle)
If we do not attack them, or do not try to "incorporate" Poland or the Baltic states, everything will be smooth. Unless the sanctions will remain.

I think this scenario is quite possible. You are not? laughing

One collective farmer liked to say: "There are two opinions: one is mine, the other is stupid." Your idol?

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

Iron logic. And the only true one, I suppose? What works have influenced its formation?

work? hmm .. unlike you, I assess the situation in the world on the basis of facts, not manuals
failure in Venezuela. in Syria, the "Assad must leave" plan failed miserably, and all this was accompanied by minor screwups with "smart missiles" that did not cause any significant damage. the failure of the coup in Turkey and, as a result, the conflict with the country that controls the straits. a failure in North Korea and a demonstration of the futility of the latest American missile defense system in front of not the most advanced missiles of Eun. complete failure in the economy. it was not possible to return production from Asia and, as a result of illiterate actions, another part of production migrated to Asia. loss of control over European colonies. Back in 2000, all European countries were saluting the United States at the click of their fingers, and now even Croatia is declaring “its own interests, and Germany is already saying in plain text“ don’t dare to tell us. ”China and Russia are already actively working on leaving the dollar and The EU also took care of creating its own electronic payment system so as not to depend on SWIFT, all this is the loss of the last leverage.
To summarize, they are no longer competitive in the commodity market, in the financial market all major players are taking measures to get out of American dependence. political authority is extremely dubious, there is someone to go to besides the United States. the last chance is war.

Quote: 3danimal

I believe that they will not start the conflict first. (Please do not remember Iraq and Libya, it is somewhat offensive to compare the Russian Federation with this trifle)
If we do not attack them, or do not try to "incorporate" Poland or the Baltic states, everything will be smooth. Unless the sanctions will remain.

Let me remind you of 1914. trade relations between Britain, France and Germany were very large-scale, but this did not prevent the outbreak of the First World War. try to think not tactically but strategically and look beyond your own nose the sale of goods to China for 300 billion is nothing compared to the prospect of becoming a bunch of third world countries that will be plundered into colonies by their recent vassals from the EU and Russia and China.
about the conflict, they may or may not. it is up to them to decide, but you need to be prepared for what they start.

Quote: 3danimal

One collective farmer liked to say: "There are two opinions: one is mine, the other is stupid." Your idol?

and I somewhere claimed that my opinion is the only correct one? present convincing arguments and I will reconsider my opinion. your disputable weakness is your problem, not mine

[3danimal]

present convincing arguments and I will reconsider my opinion. your debate infirmity is your problem, not my request

But it was you who immediately began to call my opinion a priori incorrect. You should be the first to justify.

the sale of goods to China for 300 billion is nothing compared to the prospect of becoming a bunch of third world countries that will be plundered into colonies by their recent vassals from the EU and Russia and China.

Strange logic. How to turn the country with the largest economy, 300 million population and one of the largest nuclear arsenals, into a bunch of colonies? (I'm not talking about NATO and other allies). Convince the Americans of the need for this?
About 1914. Let's remember the Hundred Years War and speculate about the inevitability of its repetition

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

But it was you who immediately began to call my opinion a priori incorrect. You should be the first to justify.

not a priori, but for objective reasons about which I wrote to you. you are wrong, not because you are wrong, but because "you are wrong in this and in this" ... re-read our correspondence. everything is written there.

Quote: 3danimal

Strange logic. How to turn the country with the largest economy, 300 million population and one of the largest nuclear arsenals, into a bunch of colonies? (I'm not talking about NATO and other allies). Convince the Americans of the need for this?

you may not know, but the United States is essentially a federation and all states have a high degree of independence. US unity was based on a strong economy, a strong financial system, and a strong army. a strong economy left for Asia, a strong financial system was provided by the largest army. over the past 50 years, this army has invaded everywhere to support the American economy and financial system, but in the past 6 years the situation has changed a lot. the US financial system is under constant pressure and dominant positions are lost, while the US army has not been able to take any effective action to rectify the situation for 6 years I already wrote to you about failures in Venezuela and impotence in Iran. there are prerequisites for squeezing the United States out of Syria. if the situation continues to develop in the same direction, the US financial system will be suffocated. after the fall of the financial system, the United States will be left with colossal debts and no way to pay them back. in such a situation, the already fairly independent states will simply withdraw from this federation. no US, no debt.
Actually, based on the above, I assume that the likelihood of a large-scale war between the United States and China or Russia (rather, with China) is large enough.

Quote: 3danimal

About 1914. Let's remember the Hundred Years War and speculate about the inevitability of its repetition

but let's re-read what I wrote I gave you an example of how countries that had close economic ties all the same began to fight. the redistribution of spheres of influence in the world is something for which they don’t hesitate to sacrifice the current trade, regardless of whether it is 1914 or 2020 ...
by the way, your example of the Hundred Years War also fits

[3danimal]

Oil in Venezuela? Heavy bitumen that can only be processed in the USA?
Compare the revenues of their oil / gas companies and all others. Boeing, Google, Apple, Intel, Coca Cola and others. (Take the trouble to find information). Let me remind you that countries from the top ten economies do not make money by selling resources (if there is such income, their share is extremely small).
In 1914, the world was not as open and "small" as it is now.
Sales markets do not need to be conquered with weapons. They give huge profits. But Venezuela is bankrupt, what can you sell her?

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

Oil in Venezuela? Heavy bitumen that can only be processed in the USA?

gee gee this is a hit of pro-American propaganda! at first they screwed up with the coup in Venezuela, having received the clown Guaido instead of "heavy bitumen oil", and now everyone is told that "I didn't really want to" have you heard the expression "a good mine with a bad game"?

Quote: 3danimal

Let me remind you that countries from the top ten economies do not make money by selling resources (if there is such income, their share is extremely small).

true? exactly? but the main US export is oil and petroleum products. did you know?

Quote: 3danimal

Boeing, Google, Apple, Intel, Coca Cola

if I am not mistaken, only Boeing of these companies kept some production in the USA. at least an assembly shop. Google is all outside the United States and does not pay taxes meanly. from Google in the USA only the headquarters remained, which in the declarations they estimated at $ 200 Apple brought all its production to China. Intel is also in China. AMD is generally bought by China. I was not interested in Coca-Cola, but I suspect that, like other companies, they also went offshore and were no longer registered in the United States.

Quote: 3danimal

In 1914, the world was not as open and "small" as it is now.
Sales markets do not need to be conquered with weapons. They give huge profits.

you want to say that in 1914 you fought for markets?
the war was about the redistribution of the colonies, and the colonies are not a sales market, but a source of raw materials.
but in any case, outside of your zone of influence, you will not have a sales market losing influence and losing markets.

Quote: 3danimal

But Venezuela is bankrupt, what can you sell her?

do you have something to burn from the fact that the United States lost Venezuela? Do you seriously believe that the country with the largest oil reserves has nothing to take? of course Venezuela has problems now. there is a change of mining companies. add to this the country's budget stolen by the United States and the gold reserve stolen by the brits. but Russia and China have proposed options for resolving the crisis, and judging by the fact that Venezuela does not capitulate, this proposal suits them perfectly.
by the way, there is not far from Panama. do you know what is remarkable about this country? Venezuela is not only about oil but also about traffic control through the Panama Canal.

[3danimal]

but the main US export is oil and petroleum products. did you know? laughing

"Export items
agricultural products (soybeans, fruits, corn) 9,2%, industrial products (organic chemicals) 26,8%, machinery (transistors, aircraft, computers, telecommunications equipment) 49,0%, consumer goods (cars, medicines) 15,0 , XNUMX% "
27% somehow do not pull on the "main article". Substitution of the concepts of "significant" and "basic", we like it on TV

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

27% somehow do not pull on the "main article". Substitution of the concepts of "significant" and "basic", we like it on TV

"12,1% (199 billion USD): 27 - Mineral fuels, oil and products of their distillation; bituminous substances; mineral waxes
11,9% (196 billion USD): 84 - Nuclear reactors, boilers, equipment and mechanical devices; parts thereof
10,4% (171 billion USD): 85 - Electric machinery and equipment, parts thereof; sound recording and reproducing equipment, equipment for recording and reproducing television images and sound, their parts and accessories
8,27% (136 billion US $): 88 - Aircraft, spacecraft, and parts thereof
8,09% (USD 133 billion): 87 - Means of land transport, except for railway or tram rolling stock, and their parts and accessories
6,13% (100 billion USD): 90 - Optical, photographic, cinematographic, measuring, control, precision, medical, or surgical instruments and apparatus; parts and accessories thereof
3,97% (USD 65 billion): 39 - Plastics and articles thereof
3,57% (58 billion US $): 71 - Natural or cultured pearls, precious or semi-precious stones, precious metals, metals clad with precious metal and articles thereof; bijouterie; coins
3,24% (53 billion US $): 30 - Pharmaceutical products
2,94% (48 billion US $): 99 - Commodities not specified by type "

[3danimal]

Even in your distribution of articles, it can be seen that organic chemistry products are not drawn to the main article. It is necessary to group only airplanes and cars - and they will become number 1 on your list. In general, we are talking about the fact that industrial products still prevail in US exports. These are reactors (they sell for 4/5 of our budget!), And "electric cars ...", and planes, and vehicles.
And again I ask the question: what is more important for a country with a similar export structure - to take a gas field in Syria or maintain and increase sales of high-tech products.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

It is necessary to group only planes and cars - and they will become number 1 on your list.

the main thing is not to take into account that they are produced in China

Quote: 3danimal

And again I ask the question: what is more important for a country with a similar export structure - to take a gas field in Syria or maintain and increase sales of high-tech products.

just not gas but oil. and what do you want to say? that the Americans violate all international norms, invade Iraq, Syria, cling to them with claws and teeth, sacrifice their soldiers, already thousands of soldiers, just to continue to steal oil there that they do not need?
maybe it's not the Americans who are fools, but you are missing something and your ideas about the world economy are very far from reality?

[3danimal]

you want to say that in 1914 you fought for markets? belay

No, but in the 21st century, it is they that are important for developed countries, whose main export is highly processed products and technologies.

Venezuela is not only about oil but also about traffic control through the Panama Canal.

You can also recall the important role in the control of drug trafficking
But they are unlikely to risk restricting shipping. There will be another Panamanian scenario.
P.S. I don't care about Venezuela. The devil knows where is, does not produce anything and does not affect life in Russia.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

No, but in the 21st century, it is they that are important for developed countries, whose main export is highly processed products and technologies.

nothing has changed in the 21st century. all the same bickering for oil. all the same attempts to crush the resources of the third world countries, including cheap labor.

Quote: 3danimal

You can also recall the important role in the control of drug trafficking

well, here with Colombia they are not competitors

Quote: 3danimal

But they are unlikely to risk restricting shipping.

Venezuela will certainly not risk it, but China or Russia will risk it if necessary.

Quote: 3danimal

There will be another Panamanian scenario.

such a scenario is possible in a small country without serious external support. at an attempt Panamanian organizations will immediately run into the Caribbean scenario and in a square, from Russia and China

Quote: 3danimal

P.S. I don't care about Venezuela. The devil knows where is, does not produce anything and does not affect life in Russia.

if it does not make big macs, then it is not necessary!

[3danimal]

Cuban Missile Crisis 2? Venezuela can be taken to restrain the neighbors, with the full support of the United States.
And it will only play into their hands if the Russian Federation gets bogged down in a conflict at such a distance. And it is possible to introduce a number of sanctions (up to the embargo on the purchase of oil and gas). Let me remind you that our share in exports is 60% + from the sale of hydrocarbons.
China is not equal to us (more precisely, we are to it), and it will never count as equals until it reaches at least 2/3 of its economic level.
In the event of an embargo, he will buy oil and gas, of course, but through “third parties” and with a “discount” of more than 50%. There is no doubt about their entrepreneurial spirit, right?
As a result, there will be a severe blow to the economy. And what to do with it? Threaten the Germans to buy our gas? (And the EU is systematically following the path of diversifying fuel sources).
In reality, apart from the desire to remember "how we arranged for them in 1961", this will not give us any advantages. And let me remind you that the confrontation with the United States then revolved around the ideology and the desire of the Union to plant it in the maximum number of countries by all means. What is our ideology now? - "Victory of World Communism" is no longer relevant.
A separate topic will be the pronounced disparity of nuclear weapons in 1962. Start then using it - the United States would have suffered colossal losses. And we would be in the past (or in paradise, as you like), in ashes. This is often not understood in our country.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

Cuban Missile Crisis 2? Venezuela can be taken to restrain the neighbors, with the full support of the United States.

have already been taken. crumpled together with the USA. instead of Venisuela, they received the clown Guaido, who appoints himself either the president or the emperor of the galaxy or have you already forgotten?

Quote: 3danimal

And it will only play into their hands if the Russian Federation gets bogged down in a conflict at such a distance.

something the US doesn't share your enthusiasm. do not share at all.

Quote: 3danimal

And it is possible to introduce a number of sanctions (up to the embargo on the purchase of oil and gas). Let me remind you that our share in exports is 60% + from the sale of hydrocarbons.

embargo??? for oil from Russia ??? I suspected that you are slightly out of touch with reality, but you seem to be in an alternate dimension ... The US cannot even force its "allies" to abandon the SP2 project! what is the embargo ??? I have not seen this even in the inflamed dreams of Ukrainian pytsriots

Quote: 3danimal

In the event of an embargo, he will buy oil and gas, of course, but through rubbing his hands and at a "discount" of more than 50%.

with what overwhelming China will comply with any US embargo? if forgotten, then China itself threatens the US with sanctions.

Quote: 3danimal

As a result, there will be a severe blow to the economy. And what to do with it?

in in. if China starts a sanctions war against the United States, then it will indeed be a severe blow to the American economy, and then the buck will fall, the basis of the United States
what to do about it? I already wrote to you. will fall apart into separate states and the second wave of colonization of America will begin

Quote: 3danimal

Threaten the Germans to buy our gas? (And the EU is systematically following the path of diversifying fuel sources).

Let me remind you that this is exactly what the United States is doing now, and I also remind you that it is very unsuccessful

Quote: 3danimal

In reality, apart from the desire to remember "how we arranged for them in 1961", this will not give us any advantages. And let me remind you that the confrontation with the United States then revolved around the ideology and the desire of the Union to plant it in the maximum number of countries by all means. What is our ideology now? - "Victory of World Communism" is no longer relevant.

hmm ... the first time I come across such political myopia ...
firstly, control over the largest oil reserves, and secondly, a springboard for influence in the region.
or do you think that the Americans are completely fools that climbed into Poland, Ukraine and the Baltic countries? as there on Zadornov, "in stupid!"
it also has military significance. When Russia has the ability to deploy its offensive weapons in close proximity to US borders, the US will have to think ten times before deploying its offensive weapons near Russian borders. if we do not have such an opportunity, then the United States will not have obstacles. everyone knows that the US spat on treaties and international norms.
and now to cock what is worse, the hypothetical possibility of Iskander's appearance in Cuba and Venezuela, or to burn out Poland and the Baltic states when American cruise missiles appear there?

[3danimal]

Venezuelan oil is difficult to recover and difficult to process. Why is it needed when there is Saudi or Siberian deposits?
Poland? But it was she (and also the Balts) who asked to join NATO. Obviously, as a guarantee of a repetition of "incorporation". Or do you think these countries are completely non-subject?
I repeat: all these rantings about “resources” are directly related to the resource model of the economy, chosen and supported by the Russian authorities. With formal rhetoric (for domestic consumption) about the importance of "getting off the oil needle".

if it does not make big macs, then it is not necessary

And again: this country is not interesting, from the point of view of influence, life in the Russian Federation. China, USA, Japan, Korea, Germany, Vietnam, Taiwan and a number of others. They produce (including development) the goods we need. Unlike Venezuela.

Let me remind you that this is exactly what the United States is doing now, and I also remind you that it is very unsuccessful

So the tools are not all involved yet.

with what overwhelming China will comply with any US embargo?

Will not, but will take advantage of the situation. As a National Guard in recent history with a colleague
After all, demand will fall dramatically, in any case.
About SP-2: here in the fall of 2019, many laughed and boasted that they were about to finish building the Stream and that Ukraine would be in ... trouble. As a result: the "flow" "hangs", and a new contract was concluded with the latter on favorable terms for it. So even the threat of sanctions works. For the same insurers. (Or our Sberbank, which is afraid to work in Crimea.)

I already wrote to you. will fall apart into separate states and the second wave of colonization of America will begin

The main thing is to believe. You have already said above that "it is not known in terms of time, but one day it will happen"
Take the responsibility to clarify: in the first or second half of the 21st century, or is it in the 22nd century?

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

I repeat: all these rantings about "resources" are directly related to the resource model of the economy, chosen and supported by the Russian authorities.

hmm .. a hard case .. well, what production do you think does not depend on resources? from the same oil. oil is control over everything.

Quote: 3danimal

With formal rhetoric (for domestic consumption) about the importance of "getting off the oil needle".

the level of raw material exports declines annually. you don't even know that? export of hydrocarbons provides funds for the development of other industries, why should Russia give up this item of income? Let me remind you once again that non-commodity exports are constantly growing.

Quote: 3danimal

So the tools are not all involved yet.

military power is the last tool and has already been screwed up with it. what other options? will summon aliens from Nibiru?

Quote: 3danimal

And again: this country is not interesting, from the point of view of influence, life in the Russian Federation. China, USA, Japan, Korea, Germany, Vietnam, Taiwan and a number of others. They produce (including development) the goods we need. Unlike Venezuela.

once again, for those living in an alternate reality, oil is the lifeblood of the economy. control over oil is control over the economy, and not just your own. none of the countries you listed will ever transfer any valuable technology to Russia. only in exchange for something. for example, for the goods that they will buy from us or as part of cooperation, and this is possible only if these countries are in the Russian zone of influence. while these countries are in the American zone of influence, they will work for the United States
Venezuela has the largest oil reserves. control of these reserves, even without active production, is control over oil prices and hence control over the world economy. these obvious things are not clear only to individuals whose horizons are limited by the refrigerator

Quote: 3danimal

Will not, but will take advantage of the situation. As a National Guard in recent history with a colleague

Ltd... it says a lot about your range of interests ...

Quote: 3danimal

After all, demand will fall dramatically, in any case.

it says a lot about the level of your economic education ...
demand will fall? as a result of the embargo? an embargo is when it is forbidden to buy oil from someone. if one of the exporters stops buying oil, the volume of oil on the market decreases. if there is less goods on the market, then demand exceeds supply and, accordingly, demand grows, which means that prices rise. learn materiel

Quote: 3danimal

About SP-2: here in the fall of 2019, many laughed and boasted that they were about to finish building the Stream and that Ukraine would be in ... trouble. As a result: the "flow" "hangs", and a new contract was concluded with the latter on favorable terms for it.

With SP2, our EU partners really did not expect the US to interfere so brazenly in their economic activities ... but there are positive aspects to all this. such actions by the US force the creation of structures and financial mechanisms that work independently of the US.
about the benefits of Ukraine, you about the fact that they still got gas? remind, which of the officials spoke about the termination of transit? Or do you refer to the sling cutter as an authoritative source?

Quote: 3danimal

So even the threat of sanctions works. For the same insurers. (Or our Sberbank, which is afraid to work in Crimea.)

and what did you want to say? the fact that account blocking is a problem for a financial institution is obvious. the fact that our western partners did not take into account such risks is their problem and they are solving this problem. by the way, this is not the first time they decide
the fact that Sberbank uses international settlements, which are controlled to some extent by the United States, is no secret. it is also obvious that all these instruments cannot be instantly replaced by those not controlled by the United States. that it is easier to create third-party structures that will carry out banking activities in Crimea, in my opinion, an obvious solution

Quote: 3danimal

Take the responsibility to clarify: in the first or second half of the 21st century, or is it in the 22nd century?

Considering the inspiration with which the United States is destroying the soy system of influence with its own sanctions and how actively they stimulate the development of financial instruments not controlled by the United States, the Duma is the beginning of the second half of the 21st century. maybe earlier, if they try to use the military option to restore their positions.

[3danimal]

oil is control over everything

Tell this to countries from the top five economies in the world. (Where someone, once promised everything, by some miracle, bring the Russian Federation)

military power is the last tool and has already been screwed up with it. request what other options?

The military force was in Iraq in 1991 and 2003. Zhirinovsky threatened that the fortitude of the Husseinites would sweep away the Yankees

it says a lot about the level of your economic education ... request
demand will fall? as a result of the embargo? an embargo is when it is forbidden to buy oil from someone. if one of the exporters stops buying oil, the volume of oil on the market decreases. if there is less goods on the market, then demand exceeds supply and, accordingly, demand grows, which means that prices rise. learn materiel

Still, your desire here and there to make judgments about the opponent in the dispute says that the mentioned position of Nikita Sergeich is close to you
An example of a ban on trading RusAl shares on the London Stock Exchange. Supply also dropped. And the price did not rise, but collapsed 2 times. And oil is not a unique resource, many have it, and many will gladly increase production, they have taken a place in the market.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

Tell this to countries from the top five economies in the world.

what a kindergarten ... who do you think is engaged in mining? who owns the mining concessions?
By the way, what is this "top five"? what is your favorite GDP bullshit?

[3danimal]

I like comparing budgets better. Let's say Japan - 1500 billion, Germany - 1250 billion, Britain - 900 billion, China - 2500 billion.
Are German and Japanese companies producing oil all over the world?
No, they produce a sea of ​​competitive products with high added value. And with the proceeds they buy all the necessary raw materials (which are sold without problems in the modern world) with low added value. Profit.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

No, they produce a sea of ​​competitive products with high added value.

naive childish simplicity in fact, they are doing what they have always done. rob those who can be robbed. Germany ruins the economy of some sort of Romania (as a condition for joining the EU), then receives from there cheap raw materials and labor force that works for a pittance in Germany or at German enterprises in Romania the rest is the same except for Japan. a good song about them is "the island of bad luck" the guys are very hardworking but completely without resources and almost under external control. talking about Japan's outstanding budget, apart from the double the national debt that exceeds this budget, this is so .. according to the liberal
of the countries you listed Japan is a colony that is actually being robbed, guess who? if you believe that it is wonderful to live there then try to work for a couple of 12x7 years without vacations ...
Germany and Britain are colonial countries and do not know how to live except for plunder. Britain has always plundered the colonies. the colonies fell off and now we are switching from tanks to BMPs and looking for someone to lease the unfinished second aircraft carrier, and in order to rein in the arrogant Iranians, we no longer send more than 1 destroyer. no money. for reference, in Britain itself, British-made products are considered the standard of trash and all sorts of Poles do this trash
Germany robbed a little colony and to fix it they got involved in the First World War. further fiasco and crisis. then the rise of the economy when the Jews were robbed. Jews are over .. hmm what's next? Czechs, Poles, French .. but it ended badly too. now robbing neighbors again but without shooting.
Until recently, China was a colony plundered by Britain and the United States. thanks to the will of the Communist Party, this situation was changed and control over the production base created by Western countries for the exploitation of cheap slave power was established. Well, well done! but they are still resource-dependent. less than Japan but still ... solved the problem by cooperating with Russia. Japan won't do it

Which of these options for well-being are you going to apply in Russia, given the fact that the "good neighbors" in Russia are only interested in the subsoil and the removal of competitors (we already saw this in 1990-2000)? and most importantly how ???

Quote: 3danimal

No, they produce a sea of ​​competitive products with high added value. And with the proceeds they buy all the necessary raw materials (which are sold without problems in the modern world) with low added value. Profit.

in what "modern world"? with unicorns and a rainbow? what kind of infantilism is that again? bought by those who were allowed from those who were allowed. the markets have long been divided and when someone starts to change something, what happens to SP2 begins to happen. Germany should not buy gas from Russia, otherwise there will be problems. Yes, earlier it was even easier to resolve issues with those who did not understand what and where to sell and at what prices ... there is a relatively recent story with Iraq and Libya. the same thing with Serbia ... now they can't do that and that's good. but they can still control the finances .. like Venezuela steal the budget stored in US banks and the gold reserves stored in British banks. By the way, even Guaido was not given gold
remember, the self-regulating market and market prices are idiots' fairy tale.

[3danimal]

Germany is ruining the economy of some sort of Romania (as a condition for joining the EU)

There is a lot of ideology. So it is possible to return before the exploitation of workers and peasants by world imperialism (new concepts about the "plunder of Romania" fit perfectly into this soil prepared from preschool years). And unjustifiably a lot of conceit. (Based on what, age?)
See the numbers. Here are even those cited by you in the USA. About 1,5 trillion non-resource exports. With a high share of added value.
And about 2 trillion in total. Why would they? Themselves would be imported for "pieces of paper".
Here, the competitiveness of products, the groundwork for technologies, registration of patents per year and sales markets (where no one forces them to buy their products, they are simply present there) are important.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

There is a lot of ideology.

how interesting .. and Karl Marx is also your ideology or is it the economy?

Quote: 3danimal

So it is possible to return before the exploitation of workers and peasants by world imperialism

cool .. and you call it something else to take away added value from workers? Or do you, by childish naivety, believe that the stratification of society into incredibly rich and poor is due to the fact that the rich work very hard? works millions of times more than his employees to whom he pays a salary?

Quote: 3danimal

And unjustifiably a lot of conceit. (Based on what, age?)

based on the fact that you write naive childish nonsense your ideas about the economy are enchanting. more on that below ....

Quote: 3danimal

Here, the competitiveness of products, the groundwork for technologies, registration of patents per year and sales markets (where no one forces them to buy their products, they are simply present there) are important.

Are you not familiar with the protectionism of Boeing and Airbus that constantly clash the EU and the US? have you heard about the US sanctions on SP2 and the direct threats that the US ambassador to Germany spread trying to force the Germans to buy liquefied American gas? Are you not familiar with the NATO structure within which the United States sets standards and conducts certification by imposing American weapons? Do you seriously believe that Israel buys American weapons because they are better than Israeli ones, and not because they receive 2.5 lard of military aid from the United States with the condition of purchasing 75% of the amount of American weapons? Do you seriously believe that if you produce the best turbines, for example, in Russia or China, you will be able to sell them in Japan? all the news is now filled with examples of direct sanctions and political pressure to sell your goods, how do you manage to ignore all this? Well, you at least read how the United States is trying to squeeze Huawei out of the market ...
it's tough!

[3danimal]

and taking away value added from workers

The USSR was also engaged in this (what funds were used to support the party apparatus, did the social system exist?), This is what they are doing in Russia now.
It is only in the West that they seriously succeeded in increasing production efficiency, which made it possible to increase income for workers with engineers. Inquire about the number of industrial robots per 10000 workers in different countries (our data is somewhat discouraging).

direct threats spread by the US ambassador to Germany trying to force the Germans to buy liquefied American gas?

The states told them: "you are afraid of the Russian Federation, you want guarantees of your protection, but you buy its gas, giving funds to strengthen the offensive potential?"
Objectively, SP-2 will be buried, liquefied gas will take market share. Ours, accordingly, will decrease in the EU. Russia cannot threaten European insurers with sanctions ...

do you seriously believe that Israel buys American weapons because they are better than Israeli

They buy weapons because they are almost free, with good (no dispute: sufficient) quality.
But why buy Intel processors and so on? What are the numbers in your calculations earlier?

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

The USSR was also engaged in this (what funds were used to support the party apparatus, did the social system exist?), This is what they are doing in Russia now.

hmm .. that is, you do not see the difference between the USSR, where the added value went to the country's budget, for the development of production and raising the standard of living of the population, and a private person who spends the seized added value to buy real estate, whores and coke for himself ???

Quote: 3danimal

It is only in the West that they seriously succeeded in increasing production efficiency, which made it possible to increase income for workers with engineers. Inquire about the number of industrial robots per 10000 workers in different countries (our data is somewhat discouraging).

again you can not resist falsification and fraud? Or just do not see beyond the nose?
the fact that in 1990-2000 the economy of our country was practically destroyed and thousands of enterprises were closed, you do not know? the fact that during the period when the Western countries carried out that very industrial revolution in our country "effective managers" bankrupted several thousand factories, and there was no way to talk about modernization, you again don’t know?
Have you ever asked yourself the question "why did this happen?", or did you have enough gruel for idiots that "the USSR collapsed because it was not economically efficient"?

Quote: 3danimal

The states told them: "you are afraid of the Russian Federation, you want guarantees of your protection, but you buy its gas, giving funds to strengthen the offensive potential?"

and again you distort the facts. it is not "you are afraid", but the United States has been saying for many years that Russia poses a danger and uses this propaganda as a basis for direct interference in the internal affairs of other countries, for example Germany, and to apply this thesis in the competition.

Quote: 3danimal

Objectively, SP-2 will be buried, liquefied gas will take market share. Ours, accordingly, will decrease in the EU.

And if not? if it is completed and it will work successfully, which will most likely happen, what will you do? change your nickname?

Quote: 3danimal

Russia cannot threaten European insurers with sanctions ...

Are you serious now or is this just another example of your shortsightedness? while the United States was the only pole of power, their master-slave concept worked, but now there are several poles of power. there are alternative options for cooperation and the world has not converged on the United States. the fact that the US has the only method of influence remained direct blackmail is also indicative. further only the use of armed forces. and note, blackmailing those whom they call allies. and most importantly, it doesn't help yes, it creates difficulties, but at the same time it forces the creation of institutions and mechanisms not controlled by the United States for the development of cooperation without the participation of the United States.

Quote: 3danimal

But why buy Intel processors and so on? What are the numbers in your calculations earlier?

read above about 1990-2000. now the industry is being created from scratch and is primarily focused on strategic directions, that is, the military-industrial complex, then industry, and only then the consumer market. Elbrus at prices comparable to Intel for another 5 years we will not see and there already quantum ones will go, and this is a new start on which it will be possible to level the situation ...

[3danimal]

The USSR, where the added value went to the country's budget, for the development of production and raising the standard of living of the population and an individual who spends the seized added value on the purchase of real estate, whores and coke for himself ???

We can recall the amazing efficiency of production, where innovations were changed by a decree of the Council of Ministers (at Ford or GE the message would have understood the essence of the phenomenon).
In a competitive environment, the added value will have to be spent on modernizing production and increasing efficiency, developing new models. Or you lose the market, and perhaps the business.
Shareholder return is paid out of the remaining funds (after salaries, taxes, production costs mentioned and more).

Elbrus at prices comparable to Intel for another 5 years we will not see

We will never see. Due to the incomparable sizes of the series. Namely, the mass character is the key to reducing the cost. And the cost of the equipment is enormous.

And if not? if it is completed and it will work successfully, which will most likely happen, what will you do? change your nickname?

It will surprise you, but in this case, I admit my mistake.
However, now these are just your wishes. Time after time the deadlines are missed. We don't have our own technologies, and now it is impossible to insure. The influence from the "other" side is greater

there are alternative options for cooperation and the world has not come to grips with the United States.

Offer options to circumvent the threat of sanctions to insurers. There seems to be only one: the company will lose clients and incur losses of $ 1 billion a year for several years. Offer her to compensate them. We have a lot of money, we can easily find the extra 5-6 billion

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

We can recall the amazing efficiency of production, where innovations were changed by the decree of the Council of Ministers (at Ford or GE the message would have understood the essence of the phenomenon).

not offset. two. history two. read about the T-34, about the production of trucks in the USSR. examples abound. if you suddenly forgot, let me remind you that the USSR recovered the economy much faster than Britain and, unlike Britain, without American loans.
I have a feeling that you got acquainted with the Soviet economy from the literature written in the 90s ...

Quote: 3danimal

In a competitive environment, the added value will have to be spent on modernizing production and increasing efficiency, developing new models. Or you lose the market, and perhaps the business.

ha ha ha thank! great anecdote!
I will remind you what a "competitive environment" in the real world is, using some simple and obvious example. in! Ukrainians for example.
not so long ago, Ukraine happily integrated into the European economy. joyful Ukrainian farmers have already lost their hands imagining how they are now flooding the EU with their cheap products and enriching themselves in space, but suddenly it turned out that, within the framework of the agreement, Ukrainian products go to the EU in quota, while to Ukraine itself from the EU without restrictions. the quotas themselves end in a couple of months. and now a miracle happens! Ukraine turns from an exporter of lard into an importer of lard
do you think this akazia happened due to inefficiency of production or the Ukrainian pigs are of the wrong system?

Quote: 3danimal

We will never see. Due to the incomparable sizes of the series. Namely, the mass character is the key to reducing the cost. And the cost of the equipment is enormous.

could have simply written "I am not familiar with the development trends of Russian microelectronics and have never been interested in this" ... somehow they flashed ignorance shamefully

Quote: 3danimal

It will surprise you, but in this case, I admit my mistake.
However, now these are just your wishes. Time after time the deadlines are missed. We don't have our own technologies, and now it is impossible to insure. The influence from the "other" side is greater

that is, you know that this is not the first problem created by the United States to stop the project? if so, you should know that the previous problems have been resolved. these are not my wishes. this is already an objective reality. a fait accompli. I have two questions for you about this.
1) if the previous problems could be solved, in this connection they will not be able to solve the problems with insurance?
2) I see that you really want SP2 not to be implemented ... tell me, are you Russian and live in Russia? no details are needed .. I just want to understand what caused such a desperate desire for the Russian project to end in failure?

Quote: 3danimal

Offer options to circumvent the threat of sanctions to insurers. There seems to be only one: the company will lose clients and incur losses of $ 1 billion a year for several years. Offer her to compensate them. We have a lot of money, we can easily find the extra 5-6 billion

ummm .. with us? we just have no problems. the EU has problems. sanctions against them how can they solve this problem? they will create a separate legal entity for the project, transfer the necessary capital there and there will be an insurance company with 1 client. is it something unique? of course not the practice of creating legal entities not controlled by the United States to circumvent sanctions has been developing for 6 years, and is developing so successfully that the United States itself admits that sanctions do not work

PS
about your example with the insurance company ... are you a masochist? Or have you simply never thought about how the EU, under sanctions, continues to trade with Russia and participate in joint projects?

[3danimal]

on some simple and obvious example. wink in! Ukrainians for example.

Ukraine is just an unobvious example. But convenient for you

read about the T-34, about the production of trucks in the USSR. examples abound. if you suddenly forgot, then let me remind you that the USSR restored the economy much faster than Britain

Examples, once again, are NOT enough. Wartime is not suitable for this (where is the competition? There was a war of attrition, they accepted any suitable equipment). We can compare it with the American factories that produced bombers.
The USSR restored the economy .. Remind me, did famine happen in the late 40s, with coupons formally canceled (we cannot overtake, we will pretend) and how many millions died then?

could just write "I am not familiar with the development trends of Russian microelectronics and have never been interested in this"

I am familiar with the cost of a modern chip production line. For prices comparable to Intel, an appropriate series scale is required, period. How will you recoup the equipment? Is it so hard to imagine?

1) if the previous problems could be solved, in this connection they will not be able to solve the problems with insurance?

Previous problems: lack of technology - contracts with foreign firms that have them (and trained personnel). Which stopped work after threats of sanctions (again, Russia could offer to compensate for ALL possible losses). Then they re-equipped the "Chersky" in order to lay the remaining pipes by ourselves (perhaps under the guidance of the re-employed personnel). But problems arose in the very possibility of further work (including because of the insurers).
They really wanted to be in time in order to resolve the political issue and impose an unprofitable transit agreement on Ukraine. The United States, accordingly, took steps so that the deadlines did not come up and achieved results. Ukraine has received a favorable agreement for itself.
It is obvious that a course has been taken to curb construction. The United States has strong levers in its hands; Gazprom was only trying to dodge. Initially a losing position.
Again, what prevented companies and insurers from spending several billion dollars to compensate for possible losses? Take them for maintenance? (By a volitional decision, because we are talking about politics).

2) I see that you really want SP2 not to be implemented ... tell me, are you Russian and live in Russia? no details are needed .. I just want to understand what caused such a desperate desire for the Russian project to end in failure?

Mom is Russian, Dad is Russian What a strange thinking: in your opinion, the same Lefty was a subversive element
Realism, only. Analysis of events. Wishlist has nothing to do with it.
Plus, I do not understand the tendencies of the last decade for a cardinal deterioration in relations with the same Ukraine (and other countries). After all, it is obvious that the SP-2 is a political project to "punish" them. As a result, a normal agreement was concluded, the minus of which is only for the leadership of the Russian Federation - that they could not reduce the income of the former Soviet republic from transit. It didn't affect my life or yours.

they will create a separate legal entity for the project, transfer the necessary capital there and there will be an insurance company with 1 client. is it something unique?

Remembering the practice of cutting off financial flows in the USA (you, your relatives, friends have ALL suspicious funds frozen), nothing prevents you from tracking down and punishing the Firm of the "organizer". Let me remind you, it is not Russian. I suggested a way out: to take on the content, regardless of any costs. Undesirable, of course, because it will affect our life (we will pay by lowering its level, not our politicians).

the practice of creating legal entities not controlled by the United States to circumvent sanctions has been developing for 6 years

You can recall the history of Siemens turbines. When conditions are initially written in the contract, WHERE they cannot be established. Siemens is afraid for their earnings. Obviously, Russia is not ready to compensate their losses for large sums. (By the way, the turbines were bought not because of a good life. Obviously, there is not enough technology to create an analogue, and the capacity for its production.)
Problems with obtaining electronic components remain.
It is good that there is an opportunity to purchase medical equipment, the same tomographs from Siemens. (Still, the sanctions are not so bloodthirsty).

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

Ukraine is just an unobvious example. But convenient for you

interesting approach. if the example does not fit into your template, then it is not obvious ... Airbus sales in America is also not an obvious example?
your problem is narrow thinking, superficial glance and disconnection from reality. the market relations you admire are possible only at the stage of market formation... these processes ended several centuries ago. now the markets are divided and controlled by monopolies and cartels. now there is no competition, there are mutually beneficial agreements with those who already occupy the market or the market is closed for you. for example, in Venice you will not be able to open a cafe that is open during the day in order to compare favorably with the locals closed for a siesta. it is not prohibited by law, but all local cafes are closed for siesta and if you trade at this time, you will be closed. that's the kind of competition. all trade relations are limited by quotas and protectionist laws. you can sell the manufactured products only if you agree with the owners of the market or in the controlled territory where you decide what and who is selling. hence the geopolitical struggle for spheres of influence.

Quote: 3danimal

Examples, once again, are NOT enough. Wartime is not suitable for this (where is the competition? There was a war of attrition, they accepted any suitable technique)

competition? in the USSR??? for reference, in the USSR there was no competition, in the USSR there was socialist competition.
As far as I can see, the example with trucks again did not fit into your template and you decided to pretend that it does not exist to state that there are few examples? aircraft industry in the USSR, too, will not notice? and the release of agricultural machinery?
well that basically explains your logic. if you ignore all the examples that do not fit your template, then in the USSR there really was no science, no industry, no agriculture. a nuclear bomb was accidentally made, and Gagarin flew into space by mistake

Quote: 3danimal

The USSR restored the economy .. Remind me if there was a famine at the end of the 40s, with formally canceled coupons (we cannot overtake, we will pretend)

of course happened. drought of 1946 plus serious damage to agriculture. it is a fact.

Quote: 3danimal

and how many millions died then?

well, well, well shine! I'm just wondering how neglected everything is. how much do you think? 1.5 or 0.2?
and since they hinted at that, please explain the reasons for the famine in the United States in 30 years. there is "the best" capitalism, they were not bombed, they did not have a civil war, there was no war at all. factories are intact, no one has burned farms ... where is the famine? and how many millions have died?

Quote: 3danimal

I am familiar with the cost of a modern chip production line. For prices comparable to Intel, an appropriate series scale is required, period. How will you recoup the equipment? Is it so hard to imagine?

it is difficult to understand the logic of a student .. in Russia, the microelectronics industry was practically destroyed in 1990-2000. now rebuilding from scratch. already have their own, Russian, production of processors, chips, substrates. there are design bureaus that create processor architecture. in terms of technical processes, the lag has been reduced to 1 generation. and it's from scratch !!! and this despite the fact that the same USA made a lot of efforts to prevent the development of the industry. the base has already been created and now the volumes are increasing ... but schoolchildren continue to carry on the nonsense that there will never be domestic processors. but probably for small and stupid schoolchildren this is normal try not to be like that

Quote: 3danimal

Then they re-equipped the "Chersky" in order to lay the remaining pipes by ourselves (perhaps under the guidance of the re-employed personnel).

you wrote below that Russian .. tell me, do you personally drink vodka all day, play the balalaika and dance with a bear? and you can’t do anything else? Why did you decide that at a Russian pipelayer, which has been laying pipes for several years, you need to change the team to foreign specialists? small but revealing detail ...

Quote: 3danimal

It is obvious that a course has been taken to curb construction. The United States has strong levers in its hands; Gazprom was only trying to dodge. Initially a losing position.

Well, Christmas tree sticks .. is it really so difficult to go into a search engine and read what is SP2? it is a joint project. yes, the United States has leverage over Gazprom's partners, but not Gazprom. however, these levers fail. if there were no problems with Bulgaria (they ordered to refuse and the colony fulfilled the requirements. What is there about competition? ), then Germany is not going to refuse.

Quote: 3danimal

Again, what prevented companies and insurers from spending several billion dollars to compensate for possible losses? Take them for maintenance? (By a volitional decision, because we are talking about politics).

probably European antitrust law? read why the project is joint.

Quote: 3danimal

Remembering the practice of cutting off financial flows in the United States (you, your relatives, friends have ALL suspicious funds frozen), nothing prevents you from tracking down and punishing the “organizer” firm.

ohh, how it gets in the way! this focus works with a fully dependent third world country. from such a country, the United States can simply steal the budget, as it did with Venezuela. but if we are talking about Germany, then there are many American assets, and if the United States begins to block the accounts of German firms, then Germany will begin to confiscate American assets. Threats are one thing, and action is quite another. Yes, Germany prefers not to escalate the situation, but if the US starts a real blockade, Germany has something to answer, unlike Bulgaria.

[3danimal]

from such a country, the United States can simply steal the budget, as it did with Venezuela.

This Venezuela was given to you .. Compare its budget and the USA. How many days will the "stolen" last be enough?
And your idea of ​​\ u7,7b \ uXNUMXbfix that the States lives only at the expense of looting someone smaller does not fit with the data you have given on the composition (and generally the presence on such a scale) of US exports. XNUMX times our budget. Here are stupid , they would not care about the ceiling, but they work.

but if we are talking about Germany, then there are many American assets, and if the United States begins to block the accounts of German firms, then Germany will begin to confiscate American assets

Interesting train of thought, deep and wide Just straight.
We are not talking about any seizure of assets. It is enough to restrict the access of the respective companies to the American market. He, you see, is very large (more than German). And when companies say: choose - 500 million with Russia, or 5 billion with us, there is no particular doubt. Business. And ours only say, "Well, what are you doing." Give money (not to the general director, but drop in income - to the company) and all the rules.

the United States has leverage over Gazprom's partners, but not Gazprom. however, these levers fail.

So the point is that without partners, Gazprom cannot build a pipeline. And the consent of countries through ter. the waters of which it stretches, and the assistance of firms with the appropriate technologies.

at a Russian pipelayer, which has been laying pipes for several years, is it necessary to change the team to foreign specialists?

Remind me, where was it built and how long has this ship been Russian? The use of "Varangians" has long been the norm in large companies, did you know?
The same Nor Nikel hired Norwegians to connect, configure and monitor the operation of separation plants in Norilsk (in fact, the plants are also Norwegian). Why? There were no “friends” with the required characteristics.

already have their own, Russian, production of processors, chips, substrates. there are design bureaus that create processor architecture. in terms of technical processes, the lag has been reduced to 1 generation. and it's from scratch !!!

Emotions again. This is all great and causes pride, but how can you reduce the price to Intel's, having a smaller series? The cost of the production line, UV lithography units is extremely high. Single law prom. production: more series, lower product cost.

now the markets are divided and controlled by monopolies and cartels. now there is no competition, there are mutually beneficial agreements

Then how to explain the emergence of new companies? Embraer and Bombardier in civil aviation, for example. New industries and new companies appear in them: Microsoft (say, you have Linux ), Google. When did Qualcomm appear? And most of the android flagships (and not only) work on their chips.
Yes, it is extremely difficult for a small company to enter a market occupied by mastodons. But new markets and new ideas are emerging.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

And your idea of ​​\ u7,7b \ uXNUMXbfix that the States lives only at the expense of robbery of someone smaller does not fit with the data you have given on the composition (and generally the presence on such a scale) of US exports. XNUMX times our budget.

so you get to know who creates these exports, cheap slave power from South America, and outright robbery of the Middle East. robbery without any "how", with the military seizure of territory and the siphoning of resources Are you ready to ignore it so as not to muddy your bright image of the United States?

Quote: 3danimal

We are not talking about any seizure of assets.

yes you! exactly? and if you read?

Quote: 3danimal

It is enough to restrict the access of the respective companies to the American market.

none of these companies operate in the US market. where to close access? Americans don't let anyone in their market so easily.
we are talking about blocking finance.

Quote: 3danimal

The cost of the production line, UV lithography units is extremely high. Single law prom. production: more series, lower product cost.

stop You wrote that we will never see domestic processors of domestic production, I replied that there is already a base for production, for which you continue something about mass character. Do you understand that a full-cycle base is needed for mass production? Do you understand that mass production doesn't work at the snap of your fingers? yes, it will take time, but it is definitely not "never".
Do you plan to continue lying to yourself and others so that your template does not suffer?

[3danimal]

stop stop you wrote that we will never see domestic processors of domestic production

I wrote that we will not see them at prices comparable to those of Intel, and, therefore, in home and office computers (if state employees are not forced to buy). I recently watched a review - the Baikal processor (developed in Russia, assembled in China, remember the hairpin addressed to the United States). Cost with motherboard - 40-43 thousand rubles

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

I wrote that we will not see them at prices comparable to those of Intel, and, therefore, in home and office computers (if state employees are not forced to buy). I recently watched a review - the Baikal processor (developed in Russia, assembled in China, remember the hairpin addressed to the United States). Cost with motherboard - 40-43 thousand rubles

it feels like you're trying to move out
I never dispute that the price depends on the volume, but I argue that the production of processors in Russia will grow, and you, in fact, declare that it does not.

[3danimal]

it feels like you're trying to move out wink

And I have - what are you trying to change.
The processor market in Russia is incomparably small in comparison with the world market (which Intel works for). To bring prices down to their level, a comparable series is needed. Who are you going to sell it to?
Compatibility, quality and reliability are a separate issue.
Now it is a "miracle of technology" comparable to an office Celeron and a budget mat. fee, costs 5 times more. And it only supports DDR 3, no more than 3 GB (32 bit).

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

The processor market in Russia is incomparably small in comparison with the world market (which Intel works for). To bring prices down to their level, a comparable series is needed. Who are you going to sell it to?

to the same person and intel Russian cars are excellent for export and are sold inside Russia, despite the fact that there are Man and BMW. by the way, to Germany for example. why did you decide that you cannot sell processors?

[3danimal]

Russian cars are excellent for export and are sold within Russia

The devil ... in the details. 30% of passenger cars in Russia are of Russian brands.

[3danimal]

Even 20-26%. In the presence of BMW and MAN. The most dominant brand is Hyundai. Say, motorists are not patriotic enough?
Question: to whom are you going to sell processors in the world market that are worse / equal in performance to Intel, but at a price 5 times more expensive? You can, of course, try to dump at a budgetary expense
Again, Intel has much larger manufacturing fashions of both processors and motherboards, there are no spare parts outages (which turn off customers). (Example - foreign experience of operating SSJ-100)

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

Even 20-26%. In the presence of BMW and MAN. The most dominant brand is Hyundai. Say, motorists are not patriotic enough?

stop you really decide, 20-26, or "never see"?
you cannot deny what we do and sell, and abroad, right? so why would it be different with processors?
some thing is expensive until it is mass-produced. the product is expensive early on, while the product is being developed and production is organized. as soon as mass production begins, the price of the product falls due to the reduction in production costs. while you manually cut the thread on the screw, it is expensive, as soon as the machine starts making it for you, the screw becomes cheap, and exactly as cheap as a screw from a factory on which there are a thousand of such machines.
I wrote to you that the base for production already exists, there are already specialists, for the military-industrial complex and industry they are already producing on a massive scale. why did you decide that there will be no mass production for the citizen? just "fucking !!"

[3danimal]

you already decide, 20-26, or "never see"

The percentage changed over the years, O - objectivity.
2013 -21%
2014 - 20%
2015 - 23%
2016 - 26%

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

The percentage changed over the years, O - objectivity.

what did you want to say? by the way, for reference, now is not 2016, now it is already 2020. what about objectivity?

[3danimal]

It's simple: he gave the data that he found. Do you have any reason to believe that the numbers have magically doubled?

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

Do you have any reason to believe that the numbers have magically doubled?

why magical? even the blind can see that there is constant growth. you don `t see? even in this short interval that you have given, it can be seen. you hate to see it?
have you used domestic machines in recent years? for example, my sister changed the peugeot to a fret and is very happy

[3danimal]

why did you decide that there will be no mass production for the citizen?

There is simply no reason for a massive transition from PC (Windows) and Mac (Mac Os) to a new standard and operating system. Most applications for professionals (graphics, photos, videos, music) are presented for the poppy. Windows is a kind of all-rounder.
The market is occupied by huge volumes of 2 companies with delayed logistics, customer feedback, huge production capacities. Even Apple eventually switched to Intel processors, being a pretty strong player in the late 00s.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

There is simply no reason for a massive transition from PC (Windows) and Mac (Mac Os) to the new standard and operating system.

still as it is. these operating systems are produced by the open enemy of our country. there are no guarantees that these OS will not be included in the sanctions practice.

Quote: 3danimal

The market is occupied with huge volumes of 2 companies with delayed logistics, customer feedback, huge production capacity.

than?? what is busy ??? you go to the Internet and see the difference in price between Intel's xeon and exactly the same Chinese one. the difference is more than 10 times.
read about what makes up the price of a product, think about why Chinese processors are 10 times cheaper than Intel processors with the same capabilities and despite the fact that the production base that makes Chinese processors is much smaller than that of Intel, and the volumes cannot even satisfy the domestic market.
if you can figure it out, you will probably understand why Russian processors cost such exorbitant money I suggest, look who the buyer is
Now Russian companies prefer to work with government orders, but as they grow, they will inevitably enter the civilian market.

[3danimal]

still as it is. these operating systems are produced by the open enemy of our country. there are no guarantees that these OS will not be included in the sanctions practice. request

Who are you going to sell it to?

for those who and intel wink Russian cars are excellent for export and are sold inside Russia, despite the fact that there are Man and BMW. by the way, to Germany for example. why did you decide that you cannot sell processors? request

So you were going to sell Baikals and Elbrus to the "opponents of our country". There are many of them, they have a large market. We are ... smaller and the market is small. It will not be enough to produce a large enough series, to equal the price of Intel (AMD) and to persuade Russians en masse (with advertising? Or threats?) To switch to ideally working hardware (developed in Russia, produced in China), with excellent technical support (hardly ) and a non-buggy operating system.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

So you were going to sell Baikals and Elbrus to the "opponents of our country".

besides the USA there is the EU Germany will buy it, as well as cars.

Quote: 3danimal

We are ... smaller and the market is small. It will not be enough to produce a large enough series, to equal the price of Intel (AMD) and to persuade Russians en masse (with advertising? Or threats?) To switch to ideally working hardware (developed in Russia, produced in China), with excellent technical support (hardly ) and a non-buggy operating system.

production volumes are as much a consequence of the optimization of the production process as the actual price reduction. and the increase in production and the decrease in price are consequences, not cause and effect.
production processes have long been optimized. the cost of a processor manufactured on a production line in the USA is higher than that of a processor manufactured in Russia due to the fact that labor in Russia is cheaper. the production lines are identical. the company's pricing policy is a separate process.
firms develop and expand production and the state market is not unlimited. sooner or later they will have to enter the civilian market.

[3danimal]

Germany will buy it, as well as cars.

You are trying to replace qualitative characteristics (they will buy how much) and quantitative (they will buy so much that you can launch a huge series, like Intel). Unsuccessful
Similarly, we look at the car market in Germany and find out the share of Russian cars.
https://m.autostat.ru/analytics/42365/
We have an honorable 35th place - 2162 cars, against 618000 for Volkswagen (1st place).

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

You are trying to replace qualitative characteristics (they will buy how much) and quantitative (they will buy so much that you can launch a huge series, like Intel). Unsuccessful

oops .. that is, claims that tomorrow we will not be able to produce the same volume as Intel, which has been developing this production for decades? well, okay ... but vyalenko
there is a developing production base, there are resources, there is a scientific potential, there are no obstacles to the production of civilian microelectronics.
what changes from the fact that fewer processors will be produced in Russia than Intel? Let me remind you once again that China produces significantly fewer processors than Intel and, at the same time, not only competes successfully, but completely destroys them in price.
again, volumes from China are lower and the price is significantly lower than that of Intel.
think carefully about what you went wrong.

Quote: 3danimal

Likewise, the history of the car market in Germany and find out the share of Russian cars.

and then what do you want to prove? that Russia will not capture the entire German market?

[3danimal]

what do you want to prove? that Russia will not capture the entire German market?

I didn't expect to admit a mistake (although, if it was not a mistake, you should make excuses )
Only that which will not occupy Intel's equal market share, world, and Germany, in particular.
You have not given an example of "Chinese" processors, the level of, say, Core i5 9600k, but much cheaper

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

Just what will not take Intel's market share.

where and when?

Quote: 3danimal

You have not given an example of "Chinese" processors, the level of, say, Core i5 9600k, but much cheaper

so go to Ali Express and see for yourself there Intel's 100k and Chinese 7k. for reference, China bought AMD. if you see AMD it is 100% China.

[3danimal]

where and when?

Read carefully.

will not occupy an equal share of the market Intel, world, and Germany, in particular.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

Read carefully.

in in. so read it. when they talked about Germany, talked about machines, where does intel? your thought is too spread along the tree

[3danimal]

So you were going to sell Baikals and Elbrus to the "opponents of our country".

except for the US there is an EU wink the same Germany will buy it, as well as cars.

when we talked about the global processor market, you cited Germany as an example and the success of our car industry products in it. On the question of spreading thoughts

[3danimal]

think about why Chinese processors are 10 times cheaper than Intel ones

I would very much like to know which Chinese processors are in the same line with Intel's? For PC and Mac: Intel and AMD are available. Have you found someone else?

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

I would very much like to know which Chinese processors are in the same line with Intel's? For PC and Mac: Intel and AMD are available. Have you found someone else?

the AMD brand was bought by China together with the production and they need it for the foreign market. internally, they just make copies of the xeons with minor changes. all Chinese supercomputers have been built on Chinese processors for several years. since the US banned Intel from selling processors for Chinese supercomputers. the same goes for consumer processors.

[3danimal]

think why the Chinese processors are 10 times

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/TSMC
Taiwanese (this is not the PRC) TSMC produces most of the processors in the world.

As of the end of 2017, according to TrendForce, TSMC is the largest contract manufacturer of semiconductor chips with a market share of 55,9%. The second place is taken by GlobalFoundries (USA, 9,4%), the third - United Microelectronics Corporation (Taiwan, 8,5%)

[Sanichsan]

what year is this? wake up, no longer 2016

[3danimal]

just "fucking !!"

On the contrary, I can say that you put your own Wishlist at the forefront. And you don't want to accept criticism that breaks them.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

On the contrary, I can say that you put your own Wishlist at the forefront. And you don't want to accept criticism that breaks them.

this is written to me by a person who does not know how the price of a product is formed ... funny

[3danimal]

What are you talking about? Don't enlighten me ??

[Sanichsan]

with all the pleasure
https://maed.ru/formirovanie-tsen-v-zavisimosti-ot-struktury-rynka/
enlighten.

[3danimal]

Your article is just general information and no methodology. Where will the costs be entered?
https://www.profiz.ru/se/12_2005/formir_cen/
https://www.lokad.com/ru/расценки-учет-расходов

[Sanichsan]

Well, read the links that you yourself found. Where did you get the nonsense about the fact that large production volumes can reduce the price? your initial resources will become cheaper from large volumes of production? or maybe labor? not.
unlike the USA, we have our own resources for production. labor is cheaper. the equipment is similar. after the start of mass production, the cost of the Russian processor is lower than the cost of the American one.
Interestingly, ask why the price of Russian is higher, or can you guess?

[3danimal]

your input resources will become cheaper from large volumes of production? or maybe labor? not.

Large volumes make it possible to recoup a very expensive (more expensive than petrochemical units) equipment.
We have our own production lines with 7nm process technology like TSMC ?? It would be a breakthrough! How long ago?

after the start of serial production, the cost of the Russian processor is lower than the cost of the American

Again, you don't see the difference between the 100 and 000 series.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

Large volumes make it possible to recoup a very expensive (more expensive than petrochemical units) equipment.

in short, no.
high volumes = high resource costs and high labor costs.
let's say the payback of one machine = 1 year based on the cost of the part being produced. are you seriously wanting to say that the payback of 1000 machines will be a week ???

Quote: 3danimal

We have our own production lines with 7nm process technology like TSMC ?? It would be a breakthrough! How long ago?

well to go nuts! Intel for 63 years went to 7nm, in 10 years we went to 16nm. You again decided to show off nonsense that nothing appeared at the click of your fingers?

Quote: 3danimal

Again, you don't see the difference between the 100 and 000 series.

in this context it is not. you have a production line producing a part with a cost price of X, if you supply 100 such production lines, then the cost price of the part will remain X.

[3danimal]

we have reached 10nm in 16 years

By purchasing ready-made developments This is not a shame, a reasonable move, but be realistic.

in this context it is not. you have a production line producing a part with a cost price of X, if you supply 100 such production lines, then the cost price of the part will remain X.

No, you WANT it not to be. The reality is that your production line costs 100X. And for its payback a huge series is needed.
(So ​​this is the point, you decided that an inexpensive, conventionally, a machine "grinds" several chips a day, like bolts? Experience in a metalworking plant will not help in such a topic.)

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

No, you WANT it not to be. The reality is that your production line costs 100X. And for its payback a huge series is needed.

Ie you want to say that in Russia there is not enough market capacity to recoup the line ??? seriously .. well, I see ... Hard case...

Quote: 3danimal

So here's the thing, you decided that an inexpensive, conventionally, machine "grinds" several chips a day, like bolts? Experience in a metalworking plant will not help with such a topic.

go and read about how processors are made. it's 2020.not 1980, and not even 2016, 2020!

[3danimal]

that is, you want to say that in Russia there is not enough market capacity to recoup the line ??? seriously .. well, I see ... request is a hard case ...

Emotions and no specifics. “You don’t think that there will not be enough capacity in Russia (!)”. We have a large population, huge GDP and budget like in China? Not. Maybe we can compare with the EU in terms of volumes? Also no. Wishlist

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

Emotions and no specifics.

facts, facts only
"According to IDC, 2019 million computers were delivered to the Russian market in 5,34 (-7,8% compared to 2018). According to her report, the brands Lenovo, HP, Acer, Asus and Dell were in the highest demand in Russia. At the same time, shipments of laptops decreased by 9% to 1,1 million units."1.1 million in just a year, and only computers excluding components.
but you only have Wishlist, and openly hostile towards the country of residence

[3danimal]

Firstly - 5,34 million. Do not get confused in your own numbers.
Next: were you going to impress me with "huge" numbers?

PC shipments for the whole of 2019 reached 266,69 million units. According to IDC analysts. In 2018, 259,58 million PCs were shipped, which indicates a 2,7 percent increase in sales.

That is, you tried to amaze the imagination ... 2% of the world market?

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

That is, you tried to amaze the imagination ... 2% of the world market?

of course not. just to bring to the notice that this is more than enough for the development of your own industry, which by the way you just recently denied

[3danimal]

which by the way you just recently denied

Elbrus at prices comparable to Intel for another 5 years we will not see

We will never see. Due to incomparable batch sizes

Let me remind you again if you are so forgetful
Elbrus will be, will lag one or two + generation behind the advanced developments of the leaders, will be more expensive than the corresponding performance chips from Intel and AMD, IMHO.
They will occupy a narrow niche among Russian state employees (primarily the military and special services), where they will be bought at any price.
Wangyu for 5-10 years.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

Elbrus will be, will lag one or two + generations behind the advanced developments of the leaders in the process technology, will be more expensive than the corresponding performance chips from Intel and AMD, IMHO.

Are you sure "Lefty" or a dull Western propagandist like Solzh? more like the second.
it is not the first time in our country that the economy has been restored from ruins, and we have repeatedly proved that they can and also better than in the west
the fact that you personally cannot do anything like that, let alone do something, but even imagine, this is your personal problem there are those who can and do.

Quote: 3danimal

Wangyu for 5-10 years.

already better. no longer "never" Let me remind you that I also predicted about 5 years, but if the diversification of the military-industrial complex begins earlier, then KRET comes into play, and these are no longer small private traders.

[3danimal]

Are you sure "Lefty" or a dull Western propagandist like Solzh?

I'm a realist, and this hits the pink glasses of some, causing annoyance

it is not the first time in our country that the economy has been restored from ruins, and we have repeatedly proved that they can and also better than in the west

Not in all areas at once. More people live in the West, there are more scientists and more research budget. More market (much), which is important, acquiring innovative products.

already better. no longer "never" laughing

I prefer not to make radical predictions.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

Not in all areas at once. More people live in the West, there are more scientists and more research budget.

yes, but for some reason the first Russian thermonuclear reactor did not hear? now in france they have begun assembly on a joint project. our reactor.
meanwhile, British scientists are asking the US to develop a new nuclear warhead for them at the expense of the US

Quote: 3danimal

I prefer not to make radical predictions.

Well, that's nice. our conversation went completely offtopic, and my Canadian woke up on NI there ... I'll go troll him
success and more objectivity

[3danimal]

yes, but for some reason the first Russian thermonuclear reactor

This is cause for pride, but it confirms my words:

Quote: 3danimal
Not in all areas at once.

P.S. I couldn't troll There is not enough consistency, memory (you partially forget what was written above, including yourself), the desire to look for information (some kind of lazy trolling). Good luck

[3danimal]

By the way, I found data on PC sales for 2019:

Results of 2019 on the Russian PC market (market share by piece)
1st place HP Inc. (22,8%)
2nd place Lenovo (18,8%)
3rd place Acer (17,0%)
4th place Asus (11,4%)
5th place Apple (5,3%)

[3danimal]

in short, no.
high volumes = high resource costs and high labor costs.
let's say the payback of one machine = 1 year based on the cost of the part being produced. are you seriously wanting to say that the payback of 1000 machines will be a week ???

Ничего подобного.
It costs less than 100 Machines to build a box for 10 Machines (per one machine-space). Resources are not that expensive, moreover, the more you buy ... the more discount you get. In larger production, you will be able to more efficiently distribute workers. Damn it, this is a universal principle. And the cost of a processor line is very high.
Payback. Who taught you to count ?? In a larger series, there will be a LESS share of the equipment cost in each product. This is exactly one "machine" (no, not a metal-working ), and it is important to load it to the maximum, not 10-20%.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

It costs less than 100 Machines to build a box for 10 Machines (per one machine-space). Resources are not that expensive, moreover, the more you buy ... the more discount you get. In larger production, you will be able to more efficiently distribute workers. Damn it, this is a universal principle. And the cost of a processor line is very high.

this is + -5% in the cost price. the total price is formed from the prime cost.

Quote: 3danimal

Payback. Who taught you to count ??

I was taught, but you are not, so you should read what they write to you.

Quote: 3danimal

In a larger series, there will be a LESS share of the equipment cost in each product.

where does the payback ??? payback is how much the equipment will pay off. it is a fixed amount. the volume of the batch, the final price of the product is just a consequence of the calculation of payback. if the market capacity in Russia were insufficient, then in Russia there would not be a single company producing processors and microelectronics, but they are.
competition with Intel? once again, Intel processors are overpriced more than 10 times! it is a fact. look at the prices of microelectronics in China, where local manufacturers have already entered the civilian market. everything is ten times cheaper. Are you seriously wanting to say that the Russian market will not be able to accept 1-2 million processors per year?!? and at a price 10 times cheaper than intel? when the state market is exhausted, companies will be forced to enter the civilian market. and then a large batch will be needed.
you are definitely confusing a price cut by cost cutting and a price cut by market saturation. Do you know what supply and demand are? apparently not. remember I asked you about the US famine? go read about the US famine in the 30s, defarming and the Great Depression to understand how the scale of the series affects production.

[3danimal]

Russia would not have a single company producing processors and microelectronics, but they are.

They exist and they are outside the competitive field, they are on a budget.

again, Intel processors are overpriced by more than 10 times!

Following your logic, how many times are the prices for MCST products overstated?
About the Chinese counterparts: a big question about performance and reliability. Xiaomi flagship (smartphones) differ little from those of Samsung in terms of price. Good hardware also costs more.
About cheap: I remember how in 2015-2016 there were victorious reports that Chinese analogues of MTU marine diesel engines were found, and even cheaper, noticeably. The outcome of the story was sad.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

About the Chinese counterparts: a big question about performance and reliability.

I already wrote to you about this. these are copies of Intel's xeons with a slight difference for copyright circumvention. I told you to go to Alik and see. they even have similar markings, but the price is 10 times lower.

Quote: 3danimal

Following your logic, how many times are the prices for MCST products overstated?

a lot. a little more and you will grasp the essence MCST has buyers who are ready to take this money. Intel, as a monopolist, also sets prices based on how much they charge. this will continue until China officially begins to enter the foreign market with its processors .. or Russia

Quote: 3danimal

About cheap: I remember how in 2015-2016 there were victorious reports that Chinese analogues of MTU marine diesel engines were found, and even cheaper, noticeably. The outcome of the story was sad.

example off topic. processors are made using the same technology as Intel, on the same equipment and from the same materials, the same workers as Intel processors. this is a copy of xeon

[3danimal]

I already wrote to you about this. these are copies of Intel's xeons with a slight difference for copyright circumvention. I told you to go to Alik and see. they even have similar markings, but the price is 10 times lower.

That is, the great secret is the theft of technology and copyright? Let's rise to the banner!
I agree that without R&D costs, the cost of the product will decrease.

a lot. a little more and you will grasp the essence of wink MCST has buyers who are ready to take for this money. Intel, as a monopolist, also sets prices based on how much they charge.

Obviously, bad Intel is less "greedy" (or rather limited by the market, it is not a complete monopolist, unlike ours) than MCST. The state employees will take it at any price they are ordered, the people are forced. And the money is not taxpayers at all and there is no responsibility to them.
But private (conditionally) companies will not take it. Why do they need extra costs? And, as I indicated above, the market share is too small.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

That is, the great secret is the theft of technology and copyright? Let's rise to the banner!
I agree that without R&D costs, the cost of the product will decrease.

Well, this does not compensate for a thousandth part of the damage from the plunder of China for several hundred years. my conscience does not allow me to reproach China.
as for us, in fact, why not? Have you heard anything about compensation or scientific and economic aid after the destruction of the Soviet microelectronics industry? The United States is directly related to this. so this is also the minimum compensation for damage

Quote: 3danimal

Obviously, bad Intel is less "greedy" (or rather limited by the market, it is not a complete monopolist, unlike ours) than MCST.

Obviously only for children who do not see beyond the nose. such prices as in the Pentagon contracts MCST only dream of.

Quote: 3danimal

The state employees will take it at any price they are ordered, the people are forced. And money is not taxpayers at all and there is no responsibility to them.

right. but you probably think that in other countries, in the same USA, everything is wrong? and a toilet seat for 10k bucks and a hammer for 5k bucks do you want? by the way, no one was imprisoned there for this. simple practice if you want more examples of effective budget drinking, study Musk's activities. that's really a saw cut guru! our small children in the east are next to him and by the way, too, does not sit.

Quote: 3danimal

But private (conditionally) companies will not take it. Why do they need extra costs?

how they will take it. the state market is not unlimited.
If you have forgotten, in 2016 the presidential decree on the preparation of civil programs for enterprises of the military-industrial complex, including KRET. one of two things, or you are ignoring reality, or not sufficiently aware.

Quote: 3danimal

And, as I indicated above, the market share is too small.

what?!? 2% of the world market is "too small" ??? are you out of your mind? and this is only the domestic market that you can just pick up!

[3danimal]

a thousandth of the damage from the plunder of China over several hundred years. request

We should probably demand compensation from Mongolia. Over centuries of plunder Let me tell you a secret: the Chinese do it only because they can and it is profitable. All. There is no historical background, these are outsiders trying to adjust the historical justification.

Have you heard anything about compensation or scientific and economic aid after the destruction of the Soviet microelectronics industry? The United States is directly related to this. so this is also the minimum compensation for damage request

The industry was liquidated without budgetary infusions. They could not compete with the same Apple computers - the price came out several times higher.
And what about the ominous hand of the United States everywhere visible?

such prices as in the Pentagon contracts MCST only dream of. bully

More specifically: Does the Pentagon buy civilian chips of comparable performance (Intel) at a significantly higher price? ; Do not depart from the original topic)

study the activities of the Mask. that's really a saw cut guru! our small children in the east are next to him

I noticed that the main denunciators of "Musk's cuts" are all kinds of yellow pages. Rogozin went there, lost a large share of commercial launches, did not create anything comparable to keep it. It remains only to engage in conspiracy theories ..

how they will take it. the state market is not unlimited.
If you have forgotten, in 2016 the presidential decree on the preparation of civil programs for enterprises of the military-industrial complex, including KRET. one of two things, or you ignore reality,

And our military-industrial complex enterprises are not controlled by the state ??
Private traders - Nor Nickel, Lukoil. Although in our country they "can be ordered." That does not mean the victory of the product and its competitiveness, including the price. And you can ban the sale of Intel chips in the Russian Federation, after saying that the Russians have chosen Elbrus. They just take big doubts about the quality, support and volumes of components. How would not have to wait when somewhere "thrown out". And the purchase of computers by the poorer population will decline.

2% of the world market is "too small" ??? are you out of your mind? and this is only the domestic market that you can just pick up!

Not enough to launch a series comparable to Intel, since it's 20 more. Are you trying to count though?
The way to take the market I described to you above, it is the only "realistic" (mind me ). You can pay another 80-90% of the cost from the budget, dumping. But such a program will not last long.
Without an admin resource, it will not work to oust Intel, honestly competing, this is an objective reality.
And as a result, the citizens of the Russian Federation will have less opportunity to buy a PC.
In addition, there are also laptops that are now fully compatible with PCs (similar chips, mostly a single operating system).

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

We should probably demand compensation from Mongolia.

tell the Jews and the French that they have been ripping off Germany for the last 70 years

Quote: 3danimal

the Chinese do this only because they can and it is beneficial. All. There is no historical background, it is already outside people who are trying to adjust the historical justification.

right. and I cannot blame them for this.

Quote: 3danimal

The industry was liquidated without budgetary infusions. They could not compete with the same Apple computers - the price came out several times higher.

interesting .. are you sure? be so kind as the rates of domestic and epla in 1990.

Quote: 3danimal

And what about the ominous hand of the United States everywhere visible?

do you know this? what is hanging on his belly? where is this happening and who is around? or is it all coincidence?

Quote: 3danimal

More specifically: Does the Pentagon buy civilian chips of comparable performance (Intel) at a significantly higher price? ; Do not depart from the original topic)

is this news to you? did you think everything about the health of ordinary Americans is baked?
it takes you somewhere else in the GTS. we started with container weapons

Quote: 3danimal

I noticed that the main denunciators of "Musk's cuts" are all kinds of yellow pages. Rogozin went there, lost a large share of commercial launches, did not create anything comparable to keep it. It remains only to engage in conspiracy theories ..

OU. are you also a maskophile? where does the conspiracy theories, only facts. but the maskophile sect is simply ignoring these facts this is normal, these are sectarians Are you personally a sectarian or an adequate person? personally, you are ready to ignore the saws on the poverval, the tesla, which miraculously didn’t grow thin despite the fact that it was exempted from taxes and is free for another 5 years, the most environmentally friendly gigafactory that has not been overgrown with wind turbines and solar panels and continues to work from the nearest power plant, of course with modern equipment "removed from the Panasonic factory in China during the modernization 5 years ago, the hyperloop for which they raised quite a lot of money and eventually got a cart with a jet engine, electrification of Tau and Northern Australia, a spaceX which is the cheapest and most profitable type, but it cannot get out from the US domestic market and of course a personal invention Mask Pai fell and with such a gorgeous track record, he is still at large and even a millionaire! Chubais is far from him ...
believers believe

Quote: 3danimal

And our military-industrial complex enterprises are not controlled by the state ??

and? What does it change?

Quote: 3danimal

Private traders - Nor Nickel, Lukoil. Although in our country they "can be ordered."

very much I doubt their "particular". most likely already belong to the state.

Quote: 3danimal

And you can ban the sale of Intel chips in the Russian Federation, after stating that the Russians have chosen Elbrus. They just take big doubts about the quality, support and volumes of components.

to start a trade war with China? this is definitely absurd. state organizations can be transplanted into domestic ones by order, and an ordinary consumer can only be dumped.

Quote: 3danimal

Not enough to launch a series comparable to Intel, since it's 20 more. Are you trying to count though?

I see you are firm in your heresy and the facts that in the same China coped well without a series comparable to Intel did not shake you. you chose to ignore so as not to fall out of the pattern ...

Quote: 3danimal

Another 80-90% of the cost can be paid from the budget by dumping. But such a program will not last long.

oh well you! the falcons have been flying on state dumping and niche for many years now, maskophiles rejoice
I have already given you an example of the automobile market, and microelectronics will also be pushed through.

Quote: 3danimal

In addition, there are also laptops that are now fully compatible with PCs (similar chips, mostly a single operating system).

Russian-made laptops are already on sale at an affordable price. will receive a domestic set, will be completely domestic.

[3danimal]

Having seen the prospect in time, one could try to enter the ARM processor market (Qualcomm appeared not so long ago), but now, IMHO, time is lost.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

but now, IMHO, time is lost.

now there is active work on quantum computers, perhaps this is not a fuss.

[3danimal]

now there is active work on quantum computers, perhaps there is no fuss about this

Perhaps this would be a chance. But this is not very fast, and the question arises about financing, as well as its effectiveness. Example: the shell for Baikal (based on Linux!) Looks damp and crooked. It cost 160 million rubles, it is being sold (!) For 7000 rubles. Like Windows.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

Example: the shell for Baikal (based on Linux!) Looks damp and crooked. It cost 160 million rubles, it is being sold (!) For 7000 rubles. Like Windows.

damp ??? this is part of the program for import substitution in government agencies, hence the prices. it's strange that you still don't understand this Won Aurora costs 35k, but on the manufacturer's website you can download it for free and for ordinary users it is generally free normal office system. admin's dream a strict set of components and you can't install too much, in fact, for what it was created ...

[3danimal]

this is part of the program for import substitution in government agencies, hence the prices.

This is a very serious problem of ours: if we are talking about a state order (money is nobody's, citizens do not count), no one counts the funds. The Accounts Chamber revealed not so long ago, after all, astronomical abuses ..

[Sanichsan]

speaking of competition ..
a great example of competition right now!
the tik tok company is forced to sell its assets to microsoft and they do it at the state level. K - competition
well, they themselves are to blame ... keeping their assets on the territory of such a "reliable" business partner as the United States was not the most reasonable decision.

[3danimal]

the tik tok company is forced to sell its assets to microsoft and they do it at the state level. K - competition

I haven’t heard about it, beforehand it’s no good.
Our nails are not better: we can recall the "spin" of VKontakte and a number of applications by media groups belonging to oligarchs.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

Our nails are not better: we can recall the "spin" of VKontakte and a number of applications by media groups belonging to oligarchs.

Yes we also know how. I didn’t write this in order to tell how evil Americans are. this is an example of what competition looks like in reality.

[3danimal]

not to tell how bad Americans are. this is an example of what competition looks like in reality.

But from them, citizens can sue millions and billions from corporations (remember the lawsuits against tobacco producers). With us - never, alas. Caste, sort of. A commoner cannot sue the prince.
And this is not competition, but deviation.
Competition, when there is Intel and AMD in the store, and everyone is engaged in R&D, to create an attractive product. When there are 10 types of vacuum cleaners from several manufacturers and you choose what suits you, rewarding one of them.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

But from them, citizens can sue millions and billions from corporations (remember the lawsuits against tobacco producers).

what do you mean? advertising campaigns "scandal with an aunt drenched in hot coffee"? do not make me laugh try to file a claim on some kind of google and go to the forest.
if you are robbed and maimed by a negro in the central park, you will have no chance of justice now. black life matters!

Quote: 3danimal

With us - never, alas. Caste, sort of. A commoner cannot sue the prince.

if you do not have a liberal brain injury, then look at what "injury at work" is and how it threatens the employer. but if you personally want to live according to the principle of "master / slave", then I cannot stop you

Quote: 3danimal

Competition, when there is Intel and AMD in the store, and everyone is engaged in R&D, to create an attractive product. When there are 10 types of vacuum cleaners from several manufacturers and you choose what suits you, rewarding one of them.

Doesn't it bother you that you give diametrically opposite things in one example?
Intel and AMD are an example of cartel collusion, vacuum cleaners are an example of competition.

[3danimal]

advertising campaigns "scandal with an aunt drenched in hot coffee

Ah, you probably don't know. Google to help, read about the claims of citizens against the American tobacco companies and about their size.

injury at work "and how it threatens the employer

Are you deliberately taking you the other way? We are talking about a citizen's claim against, say, a cigarette manufacturer and the peculiarities of our courts to release such cases on the brakes, less often to radically reduce the amount of compensation.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

Ah, you probably don't know. Google to help, read about the claims of citizens against the American tobacco companies and about their size.

and? what's next? Was this your business plan? he failed and is Putin personally to blame?
for reference, we, in contrast to your example, are prohibited from advertising of cigarettes. we have on each pack it is written that cigarettes are harmful to health, again, unlike the USA. what and from whom you were going to get when no one forced you to smoke, and moreover, the manufacturer himself warned about the dangers of smoking. in such conditions you will not get anything in any legal country. including in the USA.
if the instructions for the chainsaw say that you cannot brake the chain with your genitals, but you still sawed off your penis, then you will not be paid anything in the USA.

Quote: 3danimal

Are you deliberately taking you the other way?

I gave you an example of the real responsibility of corporations to citizens. prefer to ignore?

Quote: 3danimal

We are talking about a citizen's claim against, say, a cigarette manufacturer and the peculiarities of our courts to release such cases on the brakes, less often - to radically reduce the amount of compensation.

more like an attempt, by means of manipulation and tearing out of context, to come up with some ridiculous accusation against the judicial system of the Russian Federation. what the hell? There is enough of the obvious, such as corruption. Why compose nonsense?

[3danimal]

and? what's next? Was this your business plan? he failed and is Putin personally to blame?

Demagogy

I gave you an example of the real responsibility of corporations to citizens. prefer to ignore?

While working in one of them, I know of many cases when an employee is pressured to admit a household injury.

we have on each pack it is written that cigarettes are harmful to health, again, unlike the USA.

After lawsuits for tens (!) Billions of dollars, American companies were among the first to write warnings on the pack.

come up with some ridiculous accusation against the judicial system of the Russian Federation

Offhand: a negligible percentage of acquittals, which gives grounds to consider the court an appendage of the investigation, in which the winner is predetermined.

There is enough of the obvious, such as corruption.

We can recall the ushatanny (and continuing to fall apart) infrastructure and the “pops” (already an anecdote about our media) of gas.
Don't translate the topic.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

While working in one of them, I know of many cases when an employee is pressured to admit a household injury.

well to go nuts .. and the employee agrees? and where does the "unfair" courts? that is, dark workers, not familiar with their rights, themselves refuse to make a legal solution to the situation, and the courts are to blame? P - logic ...
if a person does not know his rights and does not use them, then this is his personal problem.
For reference, in the United States, more than 80% of cases are resolved by pre-trial agreement under pressure from the investigating authorities, including criminal cases. did you know?

Quote: 3danimal

After lawsuits for tens (!) Billions of dollars, American companies were among the first to write warnings on the pack.

we have no claims under the state program. So what?

Quote: 3danimal

Offhand: a negligible percentage of acquittals, which gives grounds to consider the court an appendage of the investigation, in which the winner is predetermined.

what is this nonsense? what a tiny percentage? what acquittals? what business? as you wrote there above? demagogy!

Quote: 3danimal

We can recall the ushatanny (and continuing to fall apart) infrastructure and the “pops” (already an anecdote about our media) of gas.
Don't translate the topic.

and I do not translate. it is you here for some reason dragged the GTS. I'm talking about how another Furgal, becoming a governor, appoints his own judge and begins to rob the region, and naturally, the judge appointed by the governor will cover this robbery in court.

[3danimal]

Elbrus at prices comparable to Intel for another 5 years we will not see

We will never see. Due to the incomparable sizes of the series. Namely, the mass character is the key to reducing the cost. And the cost of the equipment is enormous.

So what was it about?

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

Mom is Russian, Dad is Russian What a strange thinking: in your opinion, the same Lefty was a subversive element
Realism, only. Analysis of events. Wishlist has nothing to do with it.

I'm sorry, but Lefty was worried about the fact that the guns were cleaned with bricks and lobbied for cleaning with a brush, and you are hoping for the failure of the Russian project. The left-hander wanted the guns to shoot for sure, and you want them all to break nafig. what for? I'm just trying to figure out the logic. you are talking about realism, but in 2000 the GDP (PPP) was about 10000, now it is more than 30000, and this does not prevent you from arguing that everything is bad in Russia. how to deal with it? where is the realism then?

Quote: 3danimal

Plus, I do not understand the tendencies of the last decade for a cardinal deterioration in relations with the same Ukraine (and other countries).

what do you not understand? The United States explicitly declares that Russia is their enemy. The United States controls countries such as Poland, the Baltic states, Ukraine (I do not consider it a country), and these countries broadcast US policy. if Ukraine goes into the Russian zone of influence, then the policy of Ukraine turns 180 degrees. they are hostile in that they must be hostile.

Quote: 3danimal

After all, it is obvious that the SP-2 is a political project to "punish" them.

rather geopolitical. the territory of Ukraine is controlled by the enemy of Russia, the United States. transit through the territory controlled by a geopolitical enemy is very shortsighted and stupid. Ukraine's problems are the last thing that worries Gazprom. we need reliable supply channels that will not steal gas and which will not be able to block under the next sanctions. Ukraine is simply not a reliable transit country. prolongation of transit can be a victory or a tragedy only for those who do not understand what is happening. for Gazprom it is simply a reserve channel for the period when the construction of the new route is completed. and no pink snot only business

Quote: 3danimal

You can recall the history of Siemens turbines.

great story! thanks for reminding

Quote: 3danimal

When conditions are initially written in the contract, WHERE they cannot be established. Siemens is afraid for their earnings. Obviously, Russia is not ready to compensate their losses for large sums. (By the way, the turbines were bought not because of a good life. Obviously, there is not enough technology to create an analogue, and the capacity for its production.)

everything is fine here! the contract for the turbines purchased from Siemens may contain something, but the turbines produced at the enterprise in Russia, where Siemens is a joint venture participant, have nothing to say. here they are just shareholders and without a controlling stake, that is, they are simply recipients of dividends. what are the results? turbines are working in the Crimea, Siemens ached and shut up ... that's all. zilch! By the way, who immediately loomed on the horizon with a proposal for excellent turbines for Crimea? of course Americans K - competition

Quote: 3danimal

It is good that there is an opportunity to purchase medical equipment, the same tomographs from Siemens. (Still, the sanctions are not so bloodthirsty).

here again ... sorry, but it seems that the licking of the overseas boot is fixed at the reflex level.
production in Tula not? nizya remember, need to praise Siemens?

PS
let's cut it down .. it doesn't fit anymore ...

[3danimal]

and you are hoping for the failure of the Russian project. The left-hander wanted the guns to shoot for sure, and you want them all to break nafig. what for?

I don't see any real value for myself and my fellow citizens. It is based on a political goal to deprive Ukraine of income from the operation of the GTS. As a result, we signed a new contract with them. Are we getting worse? Not. If only those who wanted to make things worse for the Ukrainians. But I have no such goals and desires.

if Ukraine goes into the Russian zone of influence, then the policy of Ukraine turns 180 degrees. they are hostile in that they must be hostile.

Because you miss the former greatness, and in those days there were hostile relations with the United States and a number of Western European countries? And renewed animosity gives you back a grain of greatness? Didn't you think that it is possible to bring the budget to the level of Germany, at least (without going for "oil for $ 300")? To raise the standard of living of the MOST citizens (and not a handful of the elite)? So that the Russian veteran (the winner, sort of like), of whom there are LESS than in the USA, have a pension comparable to their colleagues in the same USA and Britain? And on the "brain drain" map, our country at least ceased to be an obvious donor (and this is not a reason for pride)?

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

I don't see any real value for myself and my fellow citizens.

exactly? at all? And if you look at what taxes Gazprom pays to the budget?

Quote: 3danimal

It is based on a political goal to deprive Ukraine of income from the operation of the GTS.

it smacks of sectarianism. to repeat the same nonsense against the background of obvious facts is somehow .. well, okay .. otherwise we will approach the question.
if you think that this is a political step please submit at least one public announcement of these goals. any political step is made publicly and everyone is informed about it. find a statement by the president or the leadership of Gazprom that all this is being done to punish the Ukrainians. after you can't find anything like it, and I'm sure you can't, please let us know where you got this nonsense about political goals from. compare this source with official sources and I hope you feel ashamed ...

Quote: 3danimal

Because you miss the former greatness, and in those days there were hostile relations with the United States and a number of Western European countries? And renewed animosity gives you back a grain of greatness?

Are you seriously? do you really think in similar categories ???

Quote: 3danimal

Didn't you think that it is possible to bring the budget to the level of Germany, at least (without going for "oil for $ 300")? To raise the standard of living of the MOST citizens (and not a handful of the elite)? So that the Russian veteran (the winner, sort of like), of whom there are LESS than in the USA, have a pension comparable to their colleagues in the same USA and Britain? And on the “brain drain” map, our country at least ceased to be an obvious donor (and this is not a reason for pride)?

that's what I think about. no sarcasm. and I know for sure that all this has already been and worked. learn history yes, I regret that the political system described to you was destroyed for the profit of a bunch of scoundrels, but this is already the past ... you need to live in the present and plan for the future.
unlike you, I am worried about my country, and you are mired in admiration for someone else's, and directly hostile

[3danimal]

production in Tula is not

Rather in Tver. Low power 0,15-0,4 Tl. In most standards, centers stand with a capacity of 1 Tl. Because the resolution is appropriate.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

Rather in Tver.

Yes. ochipyatka

Quote: 3danimal

In most standards, centers stand with a capacity of 1 Tl. Because the resolution is appropriate.

if you do nothing, then nothing will happen. the issue of medical equipment and medicines has already been taken care of at the state level. food security has been and will be dealt with.

[3danimal]

the territory of Ukraine is controlled by the enemy of Russia, the USA

Rave. What elections are held there ?? Example: we were shouted so much about the dominance of "nationalists" there, but they remain marginalized, with the support of 2%.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

Rave. What elections are held there ??

elections are held in Belarus and even in the USA

Quote: 3danimal

Example: we were shouted so much about the dominance of "nationalists" there, but they remain marginalized, with the support of 2%.

why are you? exactly? why then the law on language has not been canceled yet? strange ...

[3danimal]

and even in the USA

What's wrong with the US elections? There, politicians courting voters, participating in debates, seeking votes.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

What's wrong with the US elections?

what's wrong? Let's start with the electoral system itself, in which citizens elect electors who openly admit they are lobbyists. there is no control over polling stations in the electoral process. you don't even need a passport to vote. read American sites. there they directly wrote that the Clinton campaign headquarters was dragging roundabouts around the states and nothing. no courts on this matter .. this is the norm for the states elections are much more fictitious than ours
although, elections for any fiction and fraud

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

The military force was in Iraq in 1991 and 2003. Zhirinovsky threatened that the fortitude of the Husseinites would sweep away the Yankees

well, you remember that Zhilinovsky's fortitude does not work then the use of military force is still the last measure with which it has already failed

Quote: 3danimal

An example of a ban on trading RusAl shares on the London Stock Exchange. Supply also dropped. And the price did not rise, but collapsed 2 times.

the price of what has collapsed? for aluminum? or all the same on RusAl shares? then somehow you are different things ...

Quote: 3danimal

And oil is not a unique resource, many have it, and many will gladly increase production, they have taken a place in the market.

oga .. that something Iranian oil finally replaced Let me remind you that Iran has already fired missiles at American bases So what? The USA cannot even impose an embargo on Iran

[3danimal]

then the use of military force is still the last measure with which request

Inquire about the scale of the 1991 and 2003 military campaigns. And compare with "trying to try on strength" in Syria. With the analogue of "Freedom for Iraq" - the Assadites would have poured in, forces (including their quality) are incomparable.

the price of what has collapsed? for aluminum?

For Urals oil. Which is traded on stock exchanges, and, obviously, may disappear from trading on the largest of them, in the event of an embargo (remember, it was about open hostilities with the United States). The Saudis and others are happy to compensate for the decline in traded volumes.
In such a situation, China will buy, but will dictate the size of the "discount".

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

Inquire about the scale of the 1991 and 2003 military campaigns. And compare with "trying to try on strength" in Syria. With the analogue of "Freedom for Iraq" - the Assadites would have poured in, forces (including their quality) are incomparable.

I wrote to you about this above. the USA can no longer afford such a scale as in 1991 and 2003

Quote: 3danimal

For Urals oil.

what is this porridge!?! What are you about??? you answered a comment about RusAl. it is an aluminum manufacturer. forgot? how did you get oil?

Quote: 3danimal

Which is traded on stock exchanges, and, obviously, may disappear from trading on the largest of them, in the event of an embargo (remember, it was about open hostilities with the United States).

in the event of open hostilities with the United States, for example, without the use of nuclear weapons, serious problems will begin with sea trade traffic.

Quote: 3danimal

The Saudis and others are happy to compensate for the decline in traded volumes.

as? tankers are sinking, how can they compensate for something to the detriment of a country that can sink their tankers and destroy the entire oil refinery? Let me remind you that you yourself set the condition that the war is already underway ...

Quote: 3danimal

In such a situation, China will buy, but will dictate the size of the "discount".

provided that he himself does not take part in the conflict, which is very unlikely ..

[3danimal]

it is an aluminum producer. forgot? how did you get oil?

Because initially it was about an embargo on the purchase of oil.

in the event of open hostilities with the United States, for example, without the use of nuclear weapons, serious problems will begin with sea trade traffic.

As with the size of our navy. Which is significantly less. Can you guess who will compensate the losses faster?

as? tankers are sinking, how can they compensate for something to the detriment of a country that can sink their tankers and destroy the entire oil refinery? Let me remind you that you yourself set the condition that the war is already underway ...

Strikes are also possible on our ships and complexes. As well as the fleet is poorly adapted for long voyages (few ships are adapted for this).
In the ocean - it will be very difficult.

provided that he himself does not take part in the conflict, which is very unlikely.

Why would he? Will see who is winning and will support the winner. Confucianism .. Let me remind you that they have a parable when a sage waits and watches the corpses of enemies floating along the river.

[3danimal]

Considering the inspiration with which the United States is destroying the soy system of influence with its own sanctions and how actively they stimulate the development of financial instruments not controlled by the United States, the Duma is the beginning of the second half of the 21st century.

The convenience of this position is that the predicted event may occur after an indefinite time. In any case, it will be enough until the Sun turns into a new one.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

The convenience of this position is that the predicted event may occur after an indefinite time. In any case, it will be enough until the Sun turns into a new one.

it is obvious that this will not happen tomorrow or the day after tomorrow. Why ask a stupid question?

[3danimal]

If you don't see the irony ..

[3danimal]

quote] China and Russia are already actively working to move away from the dollar and have made significant progress.
[/ Quote]
In many similar posts, one can trace a certain ingratiation, the pride of turning into a vassal of an opponent of the United States (which are bad, the Union still had disagreements with them).
The "terrible defeats" cited by you are such only for you (so successfully presented by the main propagandists of the central channels, hurrying after the broadcasts to the "west" dear to their hearts).
Even now Russia may refuse to sell hydrocarbons for dollars. And lose a huge market share. Companies from the same USA will only say thank you.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

Even now Russia may refuse to sell hydrocarbons for dollars. And lose a huge market share. Companies from the same USA will only say thank you.

OU! But don't you know that settlements are already being carried out with many countries in national currencies? for example with China. with the EU, too, it seems like we trade for the euro, and not for the bucks. for example, with Poland, settlements in zlotys and rubles. did you know?
apparently carried away by exposing propaganda

[3danimal]

OU! But don't you know that settlements are already being carried out with many countries in national currencies?

"In 2019, the trade turnover of Russia with partner countries in dollars decreased, in comparison with 2013, by about 12% (from 64,2 to 52,3%)"
It is important to know the real share of these calculations, for a more complete picture. And then these vague phrases that our (and not only) propagandists love so much ...

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

It is important to know the real share of these calculations, for a more complete picture.

Yeah..
"The share of the dollar in settlements between Russia and the BRICS countries (Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa) decreased from 79,9% to 50,4%, or by $ 17,45 billion. structure of the RF foreign trade turnover"
this is for the first half of 2019.

[3danimal]

It is important to take a convenient part of the statistics
However, BRICS are only a part of the trade partners of the Russian Federation.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

It is important to take a convenient part of the statistics

Why not? you are not shy

Quote: 3danimal

However, BRICS are only a part of the trade partners of the Russian Federation.

and? the process is going on and this is a fact. now the EU is concerned about the problem of dependence on the dollar, which means that the process will go more actively.

[3danimal]

The process goes by 12% in 6 years. Perhaps, by the year 25, it will decrease by the same amount.
In general, it sounds like an attempt to cover up an initially weak and unverified statement.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

In general, it sounds like an attempt to cover up an initially weak and unverified statement.

really? but in my opinion it sounds like an obvious fact of the global trend
but personally you can believe that you won it doesn't change the essence of the matter

[3danimal]

The global trend is measured in terms of percentage. The share of the Russian Federation in the world economy is small.

[3danimal]

Look at the world map, with the capitalization of companies by country. The USA is the most noticeable there, China is not far behind, and we are almost invisible. What "terrible" problems are we talking about?
Which planes do you (and about half of the world's people) fly more often, which processors (Intel, AMD, Qualcomm or Apple) work in your beech, PC or phone?
And only the mentioned firms have huge profits and pay equally huge taxes to the US budget. Amazon, Google? You can list for a long time.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

Look at the world map, with the capitalization of companies by country. USA is the most visible there.

what will overshadow that? Google that has already moved to Ireland? Or maybe an eplom that is all in China?

Quote: 3danimal

And only the mentioned firms have huge profits and pay equally huge taxes to the US budget. Amazon, Google? You can list for a long time.

psss .. I will reveal a terrible secret! all these companies have long been registered in offshore companies and pay symbolic pennies to the US budget and the king is naked
Trump has been trying for several years with threats and persuasion to force these companies to pay taxes in the United States, but nothing comes of it. even Harley Davidson left for China

[3danimal]

You are wrong. The same Apple, having production in China and Taiwan, remains registered in the United States and pays taxes there (not the plant, but the entire company).
Trump is trying to move PRODUCTION back to the United States, for less technology leakage and the creation of additional. work places.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: 3danimal

You are wrong. The same Apple, having production in China and Taiwan, remains registered in the United States and pays taxes there (not the plant, but the entire company).

I see that you are far from taxation
check out:
https://www.vedomosti.ru/library/articles/2013/05/27/uklonenie_poamerikanski

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: Nehist

We also decided to step on the same rake?

And what are we worse?

[JD1979]

According to military experts, modular ships, whose armament composition may change depending on the tasks being performed at the moment, will soon replace "classic" ships.

In my opinion, experts with education have long been supplanted by the "experts" of the furniture factory of squeezed sofas.

[Emperor of the galaxy]

Quote: Nehist

countries where modular ships are used have found them ineffective and unnecessarily expensive. We also decided to step on the same rake?

I am, of course, a delitant, but = a container, for example, with an anti-ship missile system, before launch, the starting data for the flight task is entered = south-west course, point coordinates taketo, launch ... AWACS or someone else who corrects in flight
option two, the same BAL does not have a very long range and it is quite possible that the IAC detection and target designation systems are sufficient for launch, again if we get data on the enemy's speed and course from a drone or coastal stations, pushing the pasudin by 50-80 km we have an increase in the range defeat without mega-costs for sawing the entire complex.
Well, and most importantly, you can put different things in a container ... for example, 2 containers, one with a product, the second with a tripe that ensures a true launch.
Conclusion, under our tasks in our geographically important water areas, this idea looks extremely promising. IMHO.

[3danimal]

Such actions will lead to more casualties of our people in civilian courts. Or are they not people, but just a (consumable) resource? О - responsibility

[7,62x54]

I will lease 1 acres of land for such a container. I guarantee confidentiality.

[Journalist]

Quote: 7,62x54

I will lease 1 acres of land for such a container. I guarantee confidentiality.

Yes, half of Russia would not refuse this, especially in the provinces!

[7,62x54]

I was the first to suggest. And not every province can be reached with a missile from a container to an opponent.

[Journalist]

Quote: 7,62x54

I was the first to suggest.

Well yes

Quote: 7,62x54

And not every province can be reached with a missile from a container to an opponent.

Well, what if you squeeze the minimized S-500 into a container? You can shoot down satellites)))))

[Thrifty]

The topvar had already a dozen articles showing the futility, high cost and complexity of creating "modular" warships! It is not for nothing that many countries of the world have at least postponed the creation of such modules, and some have decided to abandon them altogether! And we decided to arrange a rake marathon?

[Kart]

Quote: Thrifty

On topvar there were already a dozen articles showing the futility, high cost and complexity of creating "modular" warships!

Oh, who determines the direction of development of technology in the world?
You guys are dashing internet experts. Either you arrange revolutions in a fictitious country, or you lead the world's technical thought. There.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Carte

Oh, who determines the direction of development of technology in the world?
You guys are dashing internet experts. Either you arrange revolutions in a fictitious country, or you lead the world's technical thought. There.

Right. There is no need to listen to any experts writing about some kind of world experience and about the refusal of the founders of modular ships from the StanFlex concept.
It is imperative to jump on this rake ourselves in order to understand that something is wrong here.

[Nehist]

This is a national Russian sport !!! Give me a rake !!! And as much as possible !!!

[Nastia makarova]

will install a truck on a truck and secretly send

[Galleon]

Quote: Nastia Makarova

will install a truck on a truck and secretly send

And on a wagon a carriage, and on a carriage a barge with a trailer ... And all this is hidden, at night, necessarily, in an unknown direction with no one knows what is inside. That will be fear.

[Senka naughty]

And we decided to arrange a rake marathon?

"Container" weapons were developed back in the USSR in the distant 80s, the base for them was railway trains. So one can argue who started this relay.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: Thrifty

On topvar there were already a dozen articles showing the futility, high cost and complexity of creating "modular" warships!

what is the connection between modular ships and cargo containers? did you read the article or only comments?

[Earthshaker]

According to military experts, modular ships, whose armament composition can change depending on the tasks being performed at the moment, will soon replace "classic" ships designed to solve any one combat mission. The use of container combat modules will significantly expand the range of tasks performed by a combat ship, depending on the current operational situation.

Are these experts living in an isolated world? They do not know the bad experience of operating modular corvettes by the Danes? Have they not heard that well-fed Americans refuse to continue construction and write off the first production LCS ahead of schedule? Because LCS did not justify the big money spent on them. With all due respect to the experts, in their opinion, I should start. The future belongs to the carriers of unmanned detection and destruction means, this applies to all environments in the air, on water and under water.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: Earthshaker

Are these experts living in an isolated world? They do not know the bad experience of operating modular corvettes by the Danes?

no, these experts, unlike you, are able to distinguish a standard 20 and 40 foot transport container from a modular ship

[Wedmak]

Modular ships came out expensive. But ours decided to try a little differently: not to develop a module for the ship, but to make a place on the ship for a ready-made module - a standard sea container. And already into it to cram the necessary devices and weapons.
I think this is more correct. If such containers are also self-contained, even if one with weapons, and the other with power and control equipment, they will be easily transported by ordinary trucks, trains or ships.
It is unlikely that they will be put on large container ships, but it will obviously be more convenient to load them on chartered ships than other wheeled or tracked similar equipment.
In general, why not: a pair of such containers with 57 mm rapid-fire machine guns, placed on top of a container ship, will easily discourage any pirates.

[Journalist]

The use of container combat modules will significantly expand the range of missions performed by a combat ship, depending on the evolving operational situation

Well, that's not a bad idea, considering that our fleet is still small in Russia ..

[Galleon]

If you install such containers on civil, and even more so on chartered ships, many international laws and regulations will fly upside down. Nobody will go to this crime. Dear commentators, please temper your fantasies.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: Galleon

If you install such containers on civil, and even more so on chartered ships, many international laws and regulations will fly upside down.

oh well you! exactly will fly straight ???
hmm .. well, so you can probably give examples of such flights? for example during the Falklands War when a container ship was converted into an aircraft carrier while continuing to disguise it as a container ship. Or maybe all the norms went upside down when a civilian transporter bombed British ships?
for a start, you remember at least one war during which civilian ships were not sunk

[Warrior MorePhoto]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

Quote: Orkraider

If they really test and start purchasing, this will greatly bring down the position of the opinion that many units of our fleet are under-equipped and were built in vain.

No, it won't. The problem is that modular armament is extremely suboptimal even with functional modules. Only one preparation l / s is worth it.

Personnel training can be carried out both onshore and at sea. The best of the best will be at sea, the rest will hone their skills. A quick change of modules can give advantages within a day - for example, the transfer of air defense modules and personnel by a transport aircraft, a change on the ship and we get several protection ships - and suddenly they destroyed in Khmeimim C 400, there is an urgent replacement or shock reinforcement.
A trained l / s can be sent on a civilian container ship and wait for the command (hidden application), loaded onto a car and the same ...
The storage of modules is cheap at naval bases, and even from 20-30 places in any large port you won't even notice.
Any auxiliary ship of the Navy can become a combat one without losing its immediate qualities and purposes.
Write what exactly is wrong?

[Cyril G ...]

Quote: Warrior StillTot

Write what exactly is wrong?

In the "crews" of containers. There are a lot of problems here.

[keleg]

Yes. But starting with some degree of automation, these problems can be solved. Pilots are able to handle various types of missiles, bombs, hanging tanks and target designation containers (not counting more highly specialized items).

[Brylevsky]

Yes. But starting with some degree of automation, these problems can be solved.

The bottom line is quite different ... It's not a problem to put a container with combat contents inside a container ship. The problem is to legalize weapons and military crew on board a civilian ship. This is where the International Maritime Law comes into force, which will conflict with such a "substitution", and if so, the ship will lose its previous legal status and turn into a warship, which has a completely different legal status. Let's start with the fact that the ship comes under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, that is, they change its flag - instead of a commercial one, a military one is embroidered. That's it, the story can end on this: all foreign "voyages" of such a ship will become possible only within the framework of official calls, and if so, then its most important tactical advantage is lost - stealth. Ships - "decoys" existed before, but it was during the wars, in peacetime such a hocus-pocus will be equated to an act of piracy. Legally, this is a completely stillborn scheme: in peacetime, try to secretly place weapons and a military crew on a civilian ship. In the military - please ... nevertheless, it is better to use cargo ships for military cargo transportation, and leave the battle for warships. Although everything has happened in world history ... and gold was transported on cruisers, and a Japanese "kamikaze" Soviet tanker shot down ...

[Sanichsan]

Quote: Cyril G ...

In the "crews" of containers. There are a lot of problems here.

what? there are no problems in the D-30 crews, there are no problems in the T-90 crews, there are no problems in the C400 crews, there are no problems in the Iskander crews, but then where will they be?

[Escobar]

If only the old developments were completed. And then at first they talked about the calibers from the containers, (I did not see the information that they were accepted into service) right now they want to cram torpedoes with air defense.

[Cyril G ...]

So far, I see for modules the use of either a specialized type of punishment cell, a diving container, an additional spare parts store, a warehouse or a container packed in a module with an MD air defense system, which requires only electricity to connect and that's it.
An air defense module with a crew either serves in the defense of the base or it can reinforce the air defense of any combat ship or mobilized container intended for installation.
The same solution can be applied to the SCRC Uranus.

[Brylevsky]

You can also place a hydroacoustic station in a container; convert an average fishing freezer trawler for its installation, and turn the trawler into a sonar patrol ship. The military just has such cunning ships. I will not say where they are, but in Russia they are: a small number of old STR-503s have been converted into electronic intelligence ships. The main thing is that in this case no legal "collisions" arise: their flag is already military; the crew is completely military; and they never enter international ports - they hang out at sea or stand in the base. And "re-bridging", it is loudly said: even container fittings on the deck will not need to be welded on, a twenty-foot container can be fastened on the deck with chains, lanyards and rods, there is enough space and attachment points there. Set up quickly and take off quickly ... the only thing that might be required in this case is a port crane ... or a suitable truck crane.

[mehan]

I read the arguments for and against.
Well, there, legal, military ... all sorts.
But, as a techie, I note: crap.
The idea is interesting, though ancient, but the implementation .......
A simple example. Close in a concrete garage for a year or two, beloved by someone Lada Kalina. Filled, connected to the preventive battery charging.
Try to jerk open the gate, jump behind the wheel and quickly drive away.
What do you think will work out?
Mears instead of Kalina - I do not suggest.

[And Makarov]

Advertised for a long time, finally brought to the test.

[Andrew_A]

This is reported by Izvestia with reference to the RF Ministry of Defense

Believing Izvestia means not respecting yourself. News agency "OBS"

[Imperial Technocrat]

Think, load such containers with Zircons, and merchant ships with these containers will constantly scurry back and forth near the Pundoc coast

[3danimal]

They will be intercepted and arrested. For violation of maritime law. And everyone will condemn the use of such ships.
You can drown (if you resist), for example, submarines.

[aszzz888]

3danimal Yesterday, 23:27
-1
They will be intercepted and arrested. For violation of maritime law. And everyone will condemn the use of such ships.
You can drown (if you resist), for example, submarines.

Drink validola and be happy. Lost in dreams.

[3danimal]

The boorish manner of speech says a lot about the person who wrote
Is there anything in essence to object, or was it an intellectual maximum?

[Castro Ruiz]

Nevitesniat.

[123456789]

Rows of stools and boxes were replenished with container

[Warrior MorePhoto]

Quote: Cyril G ...

Quote: Warrior StillTot

Write what exactly is wrong?

In the "crews" of containers. There are a lot of problems here.

exhausting ...
specifically in what? Write 5 theses point by point

[Sergey Kulikov_3]

A tank is, roughly speaking, a modular platform, a tractor + a gun, a tractor driver, a gunner and a commander get along in it. Any military aircraft or ship is also a modular platform. Let's imagine, instead of a containerized version, a launcher on a wheeled or tracked chassis, does anyone have anything against the self-sufficiency of such a "module"?

[keleg]

The most interesting thing here is logistics. We have four (counting the Caspian - five) loosely connected fleets. Keeping a lot of highly specialized ships for everyone is prohibitively expensive. Inter-fleet crossings are long.
And if all fleets have at least a minimum (for example, six each) of combat container-carrying platforms, then there will be an opportunity to maneuver with the help of the IL-76. At the same time, no warehouses and "land" crews of containers are needed - everyone can be on ships - in their own fleet. But, at the same time, they can literally within one day be transferred to another fleet and to another ship, together with the "container crew"
This will allow you to very quickly strengthen the required fleet. The simplest example is a sea disaster, where a lot of diving vessels are needed - we collect containers with teams from all fleets, transfer them with transport aircraft, load them onto platform ships - we get a massive diving fleet in the right place in a minimum time.
"Professionals study logistics".

[Cyril G ...]

Quote: sir.jonn

substitution of certain groups of crew members depending on the work performed and the equipment involved.

Based on the staffing table, which is standardized to the limit. Everyone knows there is, for example, 3 assistant, what are his duties and what he does according to this or that schedule. The Navy won't do that.

[Ngauro]

The experience of all other countries, that all this modularity is not needed by anyone in fact, is it not a decree?

[keleg]

"Everyone else" is an exaggeration. The same Dutch and Germans are building their OPV with a transformable space for containers.

[Mechanic]

Given the situation, containers with PLO will now be most in demand, and with calibers they will sit more on the pier