How the USSR was killed. The Greatest Geopolitical Disaster

M. S. Gorbachev. 1986

What Gorbachev and his entourage did to the USSR, Soviet foreign and domestic policy, national security and the national economy, culture and people cannot be called anything other than high treason.

"Perestroika"

In 1987, when the program of "remaking" the Soviet state entered a decisive phase, Mikhail Gorbachev defined this program:

“Perestroika is a polysemous, extremely capacious word. But if from its many possible synonyms we choose the key one that most closely expresses its very essence, then we can say this: perestroika is a revolution. "

In essence, "perestroika" was a creeping counter-revolution. The elimination of Soviet civilization and the state, the victory of the "white" liberal-bourgeois pro-Western project in Russia-USSR. A "revolution from above" took place, when, in the conditions of a maturing systemic crisis, a crisis of the legitimacy of power that occurred after the liquidation of the Stalinist project (the party's departure from real power, the preservation of only ideological power, its transfer to the people's councils of all levels), which threatened with the loss and redistribution of power and wealth , it was decided to "rebuild" the USSR. In fact, the Gorbachev elite organized "self-overthrow" through the complete ideological, informational, political, social, national and economic destabilization of the country.

At the same time, "perestroika-counterrevolution" in Russia-USSR had global ideological, informational, cultural, political, socio-economic and national consequences. There has been a fundamental change in the geopolitical structure of the world. It was a global geopolitical catastrophe. It gave rise to world processes that have not yet been completed. The world from bipolar first became unipolar with total domination of the American empire. Then the system was finally destabilized. The United States did not play the role of "world gendarme". Now there is a fragmentation of the world into new empire-powers - "game of thrones". Backtracking, but with new technologies. In turn, the elimination of the socialist camp led to the complete victory of capitalism and consumer society on the planet, which became the basis of the world systemic crisis and catastrophe. A new stabilization is possible only through several tough waves of crisis (like a "virus"), a series of disasters and wars. The current wars in Syria, Libya, Yemen, the creation of a new Turkish empire, the conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan, the collapse and extinction of Ukraine and Georgia, etc. - all these are long-term consequences of the "restructuring" of the USSR. As a result, the winners will lead a new Crimea-Potsdam and create a new world order.

Also, "perestroika" was part of the world confrontation - the "cold war". In fact, the third world war. Conceptual-ideological, informational, political-diplomatic wars, wars of special services and economic formations. "Hot" confrontation in third world countries. Foreign political forces and organizations played an active and important role in the collapse of the USSR. The completion of "perestroika" led to the liquidation of the Warsaw Pact and the CMEA, the withdrawal of Russian troops from Eastern Europe, Afghanistan, and the dissolution of the USSR. What the West sees as Russia's defeat in the world war. With all the tragic consequences: the collapse of Great Russia-USSR, territorial and demographic losses, indemnity (withdrawal of capital and strategic resources), etc.

The driving force behind "perestroika" was the union of various social and ethnocultural groups: a part of the degenerated Soviet party, state and economic nomenklatura, which wanted to overcome the imminent crisis of legitimacy through the division of property and wealth while maintaining its position in the new "democratic" Russia, on its ruins; the liberal pro-Western intelligentsia, who demanded "freedom" and "democracy"; ethnocracy and regional elites; "Shadow", criminal layers.

As a result, all active participants in "perestroika" got what they wanted. The nomenklatura and the "shadow" got power and divided the property; ethnocracy - their principalities and khanates (power and property); the intelligentsia - complete freedom of self-expression (which immediately led to the degradation of culture and art), freedom to travel abroad, "full counters" (consumer society). The people have lost everything, however, this realization will come much later, when the synthesis of peripheral, semi-colonial capitalism, caste neo-feudalism will crush the main achievements of developed socialism (general external and internal security, a high level of education and science, health care, morality and culture, technological and economic self-sufficiency ). It will take more than 20 years to eliminate the achievements of socialism (created with a multiple reserve). At first, however, the silent majority will be blinded by the "full counters" of sausage, gum and jeans. Only a few will immediately realize that this apparent "prosperity" will be paid for by millions of lives and the future of entire generations.

A revolution in consciousness

To implement the counter-revolution, it was necessary to "exclude" from the process, to neutralize most of the people. The first part of "perestroika" was carried out by Khrushchev: de-Stalinization, refusal to radically change the role of the party in society, equalization, a number of "mines" in foreign, economic and national policy. Khrushchevschina undermined the progressive development of Soviet civilization (“Betrayal of the USSR. Perestroika Khrushchev "; "Khrushchevschina" as the first perestroika "). The USSR, by inertia, went into the future for some time. However, “stagnation” soon began with the creation of the Soviet consumer society, when development was exchanged for consumer abundance and an “oil needle” was created (a consumer model of the economy that reached its peak in the Russian Federation).

Under Gorbachev, the time has come to complete the process of transforming Soviet civilization into a handful of "independent" banana-oil republics. But for this a revolution in consciousness was needed so that the remaining front-line soldiers and the working class would not raise the future “new Russians” and “nobles” to the pitchfork. This period was called "glasnost". It was a large-scale program to destroy images, symbols and ideas, “spiritual bonds” that united Soviet civilization and society. The publicity was carried out with the full power of the state media with the participation of reputable scientists, artists and public figures. That is, everything happened with the permission and with the full support of the higher authorities. There were no independent media in the USSR.

The success of glasnost was ensured by the preliminary processing of the population (de-Stalinization, the GULAG, Solzhenitsyn, etc.) and the complete blockade of the conservative, patriotic part of the intelligentsia. All attempts to appeal to common sense and truth were blocked. There was no public dialogue. The "reactionary majority" was simply not given the floor. An important role was played by discrediting and denigrating the historical past of the USSR and Russia (these programs are still in operation). From Stalin, Zhukov and Matrosov to Kutuzov, Zhukov, Ivan the Terrible and Alexander Nevsky. The blows were dealt to the historical consciousness, the Russians were turned into "Ivanov who do not remember kinship."

In the information war, various natural, man-made disasters and accidents were actively used. Chernobyl, motor ship "Admiral Nakhimov", Spitak. Various incidents and conflicts: the flight to Moscow of Rust's plane, the massacre in Tbilisi and Vilnius. A large role was played by the so-called. ecological (green) movement. Environmental activists, with the help of the media, sometimes brought the public to hysteria and psychosis. For example, the so-called. nitrate boom with the creation of invented fears of "poisoned" vegetables. They closed the enterprises under construction necessary for the country and the people, for which they had already spent a lot of resources and funds. People were intimidated by new Chernobyls. In the republics, environmental problems were given a national color (Ignalina NPP in Lithuania and the Armenian NPP). It is worth noting that these methods are valid up to the present time. They took the form of "green madness".

Another type of ideological and information warfare was public opinion polls. It was artificially formed. They created the image of an "evil empire", a "prison of nations", a "scoop", a country that produces nothing but tanks, “Russia, which we have lost”, “white noble knights and red commissars-ghouls”, etc., etc. The pressure on public consciousness was very effective. In particular, in 1989, an all-Union opinion poll was conducted on the level of nutrition. The average consumption of milk and dairy products in the Union was 358 kg per person per year (in the USA - 263). But in the survey, 44% answered that they do not consume enough. So, in the Armenian SSR 62% of the population were dissatisfied with their level of milk consumption (in 1989 - 480 kg). For example, in "developed" Spain - 140 kg. As a result, public opinion was created by "talking heads" and the media.

The ideology of "perestroika" was based on Eurocentrism - the theory of the existence of a single world civilization on the basis of European (Western). Only this path was “correct”. Russia, in the opinion of Westernizers and liberals, has deviated from this path. Especially under Stalin and during the period of Brezhnev's "stagnation". Therefore, Russia must be "returned to civilization", to the "world community". Russians should live guided by "universal human values", although they were in conflict with common sense, historical and cultural development. Values ​​as a product of culture and history cannot be universal (only instincts are common to people). The main obstacle on the way to this was the Soviet state, the way out was seen in "denationalization".

Thus, during the period of glasnost, "perestroika" vilified almost everything. All state institutions. History and culture. The army and the management system. School and health care system. All braces and bases.

To be continued ...

Comments

[Same lech]

And who was the driving force behind Gorbachev's perestroika ... it was the party nomenclature of the union level ... the former party leaders of the CPSU quickly began to pick up everything that was bad for themselves and reclassify themselves as businessmen and bankers ... this struck me most of all ... such a mutation of the communists did not fit into my head.

[kalibr]

Alexey! The fish swim to where it is deeper, and people row to where it is better. That's all. All sorts of "isms" are worth nothing if you have the opportunity to take, but your neighbor does not. You don't want to share with him or wait until he has such an opportunity, do you? For some years this natural tendency of man was artificially restrained by "isms". And then I got tired of ... "holding back." I wanted a natural state and this is the result. Ostrovsky wrote that there are people, wolves and sheep. So the wolves ate the sheep.

[Same lech]

All sorts of "isms" are worth nothing if you have the opportunity to take, but your neighbor does not.

This means that over the 70 years of the power of the communists of the USSR, they have not been able to create a new person free of base vices ... lies, hatred, rudeness, arrogance, etc.
It is a pity that the idea of ​​freedom, equality and brotherhood has again failed to justify itself.

[kalibr]

Quote: The same LYOKHA

This means that over the 70 years of the power of the communists of the USSR, they have not been able to create a new person free of base vices ... lies, hatred, rudeness, arrogance, etc.
It is a pity that the idea of ​​freedom, equality and brotherhood has not justified itself again

Yes exactly. Although they tried. And equality ... so people are different from birth and, naturally, take advantage of it.

[Tugarin]

Quote: kalibr

Quote: The same LYOKHA

This means that over the 70 years of the power of the communists of the USSR, they have not been able to create a new person free of base vices ... lies, hatred, rudeness, arrogance, etc.
It is a pity that the idea of ​​freedom, equality and brotherhood has not justified itself again

Yes exactly. Although they tried. And equality ... so people are different from birth and, naturally, take advantage of it.

It's just that people brought up in a socialist society were not ready for the "Market", unlike those living in capital countries, where people from birth knew and saw all the "rules of the game." As either Medvedev or Chubais said: "They simply did not fit into the new realities."

[Pardus]

Quote: Tugarin

people brought up in a socialist society were not ready for the "Market"

We do not have a "market". We have a "flea market" with all the ensuing consequences.

[Svarog]

Quote: kalibr

And equality ... so people are different from birth and, naturally, take advantage of it.

People are different from birth, it's true .. But you've probably heard about Mowgli .. And if Mowgli is brought up in the environment of animals, then it imitates them. This suggests that upbringing and the environment play a huge role. And he managed to make a person different in the Union. That man was better, but now yes, everything is divided into wolves and sheep.
The union was destroyed deliberately and out of a thirst for a beautiful life for themselves and for the children, indeed the collapse of that, organized the top. There was no need for the collapse of the Union among the peoples, there was a need for renewal and movement forward ..

[kalibr]

Quote: Svarog

And he managed to make a person different in the Union. That man was better, but now yes, everything is divided into wolves and sheep.
The union was destroyed deliberately and out of a thirst for a beautiful life for themselves and for the children, indeed the collapse of that, organized the top.

That is, they made the person "below" better? And how did a person from the "bottom" get "up" so he spoiled at once? So it turns out from your text.

[dzvero]

"Below" - yes. But the path to the "top leadership" was essentially ordered - "comfortable" people of a certain mentality (opportunists) were promoted. "Inconvenient", defending their opinion, pushed. And, if they did, then in general they "spoiled" - the adage "to live with wolves like a wolf howl" did not arise from scratch.

[kalibr]

Quote: dzvero

"Inconvenient", defending their opinion, pushed.

But what about the party adherence to principles of the "lower level"? It should have nominated the best ...

[unaha]

And in fact, they nominated not the best, but the useless, so as not to interfere. But the reason is not in people as such, this is how the system was built. Like any system, over time, it begins to try to preserve itself and reproduce itself. We get complete "stability" and lack of development, the accumulation of social and economic discontent, a public demand for change, an attempt to paint the facade instead of real changes and collapse as a result of the collapsed foundation.

[dzvero]

But what about the party adherence to principles of the "lower level"? It should have nominated the best ...

It works if "vertical from bottom to top". But when the direction changed (officially or unofficially), then "from below" began to "waver along with the party line." With all that it implies ...

[BAI]

And how did a person from the "bottom" get "up" so he spoiled at once?

This is still the case. If from the "bottom" gets "up". Not a single person will remain decent in power. Either it will get sick, or it will be rejected by the system. Power corrupts. Everyone and always.

[Pardus]

Quote: kalibr

And how did a person from the "bottom" get "up" so he spoiled at once?

Power spoils almost any person ...

[Krasnodar]

Quote: Svarog

And he managed to make a person different in the Union. That man was better, but now yes, everything is divided into wolves and sheep.
The union was destroyed deliberately and out of a thirst for a beautiful life for themselves and for the children, indeed the collapse of that, organized the top. There was no need for the collapse of the Union among the peoples, there was a need for renewal and movement forward ..

Greetings!
Judging by such a phenomenon as "snowdrops" near women's hostels and the overwhelming number of orphanages compared to the spiritless West, I would not say that a Soviet person was better. The fact that the priorities were different - erudition, achievements in sports, professional implementation - yes. Not everything, though much, was measured by money.

[kalibr]

We were also in first place in terms of the number of abortions. Including the "criminal" ones! High morality, so to speak, is nowhere higher. Or elementary illiteracy? Well, at least what poster would be released? And that was a poster: "Did you take care of the breasts ?!", and the poster "Get on the side!" did not have.

[Krasnodar]

Che, was the poster about breasts serious?

[kalibr]

Yes, there was such a completely poster, where it was advised to wash them before feeding the baby. Released in 1930.

[Krasnodar]

Science to the masses

[Reptiloid]

What's so funny about a poster? That's how they explained about hygiene. So they fought to reduce child mortality. When most of the children under one year old died. According to the 1898 census, the average age of life was 30 years.
And I find something else funny, how in the 60s a boy climbed his hands into a saucepan and got better from there .. And then the food sour. Ha ha ha! ,

[kalibr]

Quote: Reptiloid

And I find something else funny, how in the 60s a boy climbed his hands into a saucepan and got better from there .. And then the food sour. Ha ha ha!

I find it funny too, Dmitry, especially since it happened in a family of teachers. But make the simplest logical conclusion from this. What then happened in the families of the village? However, I just saw this in 1977-80. You ask to give water to drink - a dirty finger in a mug and scooped from a bucket. At best, the woman will wipe her hands on a rag, for some reason called an apron. Culture for 60 years of Soviet power has not advanced a single step!

[Reptiloid]

........output.......

the conclusion is ------ in the family of these people there were products ----additional! They were not taken care of, treated spoilage easily, did not think!
How else to explain the lack of correct conclusions when the experiment is repeated many times? In a family where higher education? Now I would say --- purchased diplomas. But this was impossible under the USSR.
Aaaaaaa, yeah! You've given explanations somewhere, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
Type ----

...someone drank, someone dropped their head ......

That's why it turned out 80%.

[Pardus]

Quote: Krasnodar

an overwhelming number of orphanages compared to the spiritless West

But in comparison with the "spiritual and enlightened" West, in the USSR, there was no homelessness and homeless people

[Krasnodar]

Yes, abandoned children were in orphanages, and in the west, where there were fewer of them, under the supervision and subsidies of social services in foster families. ))
I wrote about homeless people above

[Svarog]

Quote: Krasnodar

Greetings!
Judging by such a phenomenon as "snowdrops" near the women's hostel and off scale

Welcome I just got to the computer .. We need to measure the average temperature in the hospital .. And she was definitely closer to normal .. As for women, now there will be more "unhealthy"

[Krasnodar]

Well ... you are most likely older than me (I'm 43), you know better. From what I saw and heard - now everything is somehow more normal. Without burying babies in the snow, with two or more children in the family. Now it is difficult to run into gonorrhea or syphilis. HIV is yes, you need to dress uniquely

[Svarog]

Peers.

Without burying babies in the snow, with two or more children in the family. Now it is difficult to run into gonorrhea or syphilis. HIV is yes, you need to dress definitely laughing

Almost a month later they tell on TV how babies are found in garbage cans .. Well, about gonorrhea and syphilis, so we are no longer at the age to poke around I don’t know how young people are ... but the problem with HIV is bad, especially in some regions ..

[Krasnodar]

Well, if they are of the same age, I will say right away - in Chisinau, in a dumped garbage chute (remember such smelly mountains in 9-storey buildings, where garbage was thrown down along them), they found one of these in my house. About age - well, yes. Although, wait another 7 years - at fifty dollars, they say, the second youth begins

[Svarog]

Although, wait another 7 years - fifty dollars, they say, begins the second youth laughing drinks

I doubt it But the prospect is pleasant

[Malyuta]

Quote: kalibr

Yes exactly

I would like to add the word "MANUAL" to the title of the article.

[depressant]

Kalibr, Vyacheslav Olegovich, do you think you shouldn't try? It turns out, you want to see a mass person in the form of an animal flock? Where does the one who is physically stronger, more impudent, more cunning and completely devoid of any moral values ​​get more? In your opinion, is this a decent state of society? But even animals come to the rescue of fellows of a different breed in trouble - the Internet will help you! It turns out that wild animals are gradually evolving, acquiring the traits of humanity, and for people it is natural, it means that the right thing is to roll back into the worst manifestations of animal instincts - so that is it? ))

[kalibr]

Quote: depressant

Where does the one who is physically stronger, more impudent, more cunning and completely devoid of any moral values ​​get more?

Why do you think so? I would write like this: "the one who is smarter, more decent and shows more positive moral qualities." I have not met too many of these, either then or now.

[IS-80_RVGK2]

Quote: kalibr

Yes exactly. Although they tried. And equality ... so people are different from birth and, naturally, take advantage of it.

Equality of opportunity does not mean equality of ability. Don't talk nonsense Vyacheslav Olegovich.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: The same LYOKHA

It is a pity that the idea of ​​freedom, equality and brotherhood has again failed to justify itself.

It is a pity, it seems, they came close to this idea of ​​equality, brotherhood, but the base instincts inherent in a person - "Freebie, if I don't eat, I'll take a bite" well promoted by Western adherents, worked 100%. Western propaganda under the USSR passed through hard censorship, all media were controlled by the state. The notorious glasnost, it was an undisguised ideological sabotage, independent media (more precisely, independent of the state, but dependent and paid by Western masters) led to a shift in our heads, as in the song "The coup happened in the city of Kakhovka, the coup happened in Mike's head." For some 5-7 years we all became anti-communists, evil, greedy, envious, with twisted brains. Or maybe someone will deny it, and deny how 200 people at the stadium in Luzhniki were thrilled by Kashpirovsky, and the TV was charging cans of water from Chumak (see the name is very interesting), like with a bundle of rolls of toilet paper around the neck, with two nets of sausages ran to his "Zhiguli". The country, the people, it faded into the background, the main thing is that I got mine. And what a blessing when I bought a vidyak and a dozen dudes tapes, rewritten so many times that you don't understand what is shown there. And it was all WE. Now they have begun to grow wiser in hindsight, and the train is already over the horizon, and you can't even hear the whistle.

[Boris55]

Quote: The same LYOKHA

This means that over the 70 years of power of the communists of the USSR, they have not been able to create a new person free of base vices ... lies

"Frames decide everything".
By 1917, there were only 46 Bolsheviks. The Bolsheviks critically lacked personnel, so they were forced to unite with the Trotskyists and other parties. After the revolution, the total number of the party increased to 350 thousand - almost 8 times - only every 8th was a Bolshevik. Let me remind you that all party decisions were made by a majority vote. Under Stalin, the Trotskyists sat under the plinth and dreamed of their revenge.

During the Second World War, the Bolsheviks left to defend the country, while the Trotskyists began to defend the Stalinist cadres inside the country.

Quote: The same LYOKHA

It is a pity that the idea of ​​freedom, equality and brotherhood has again failed to justify itself.

It was not the idea that did not justify itself, but the performers who purposefully perverted it.

[kalibr]

Yes, we have no luck with the people of the advanced ideas!

[Boris55]

Quote: kalibr

Yes, we have no luck with the people of the advanced ideas!

As Mao said: "The people are a blank sheet of paper on which you can write any hieroglyphs." So it's not the people who are to blame, but the scribblers with crooked hands.

[kalibr]

That is, stupid people are not to blame for their stupidity? Oh, how wonderful! And then ... the Chinese are not a decree to us. Other genetics, mentality, psychology.

[Boris55]

Quote: kalibr

That is, stupid people are not to blame for their stupidity?

There are no stupid people, there is a leader who has failed to reveal God's gift in everyone. Wouldn't it be foolish to say that a classy archaeologist is smarter than a classy tractor driver?

ps
For example, do you know what to do when the radiator gets into the carburetor?

[unaha]

So this is called "negative selection" and here it is already necessary to change something in the "conservatory".

[kalibr]

Quote: Boris55

For example, do you know what to do when the radiator gets into the carburetor?

I know where to call so that a person can come and do everything to me quickly and efficiently.

[Boris55]

Quote: kalibr

I know where to call so that a person can come and do everything to me quickly and efficiently.

So you agreed that every profession is important and the protrusion of one of them does not make sense - we all, each in its own time, need each other's help.

[kalibr]

Mayakovsky also wrote about this, right? But real life is not so ...

[Boris55]

Quote: kalibr

But real life is not so ...

The very formulation of the question of who is smarter and who is dumber is Jesuitical.
It's all from the same opera: "Divide, bleed and conquer."

When the prince of Kiev with the Roman envoys got into the boat and the prince sat down at the oars, and the helmsman began to urge them on, the envoy asked the prince why he allowed it. To which the prince replied: "I am a prince there, and here he is a prince."

The country should work as a single mechanism and no matter which gear takes what place in this mechanism - we are all doing one thing together. The performance of this mechanism depends on all of us.

[novel66]

intelligentsia - complete freedom of self-expression (which immediately led to the degradation of culture and art),

this phrase ... wild delight, thanks!

[Sklendarka]

Quote: Boris55

Quote: kalibr

That is, stupid people are not to blame for their stupidity?

There are no stupid people, there is a leader who has failed to reveal God's gift in everyone. Wouldn't it be foolish to say that a classy archaeologist is smarter than a classy tractor driver?

ps
For example, do you know what to do when the radiator gets into the carburetor?

Change the gasket between the steering wheel and the seat ...

[Serg65]

Quote: Boris55

scribblers with crooked hands.

How interesting it turned out, the corpse of Stalin had not yet cooled down, and the loyal Stalinists had already clashed in the struggle for power! Those. Malenkov, Molotov, Kaganovich, Beria, Khrushchev, Voroshilov, Budyonny can be called scribblers with crooked hands ... practically the entire Stalinist inner circle consisted of Trotskyists? If this is so, then questions arise for Comrade Stalin .... were they shot in 37-38? And how so comrade. Stalin it turned out that your loyal comrades-in-arms turned out to be the beaten Trotskyists ???

[VIP]

Something similar happened in reality: if you read Martirosyan, there is no point in lying to him.
At 56, when Nikita Stalin lowered him into the slop, what they did: Voroshilov, Kaganovich and others, but did nothing.

[Serg65]

Quote: Boris55

not the people are to blame, but the hackers with crooked hands.

Those. my grandmother was right when she said ... folks that drawbar, where to turn there and it came out?

[VIP]

So the people are a herd of sheep? Then is it significant down with Lenin and will we live according to Mao? I do not want it so

[Serg65]

Quote: V I P

So the people are a herd of sheep?

The people want to believe in the best, whoever tells the most beautiful fairy tale rules the people ...

[place]

Quote: Serg65

The people want to believe in the best, whoever tells the most beautiful fairy tale rules the people ..

---------------
Really? As far as I noticed, our people usually follow the strong .. This is called "authority". The people do not believe in anything other than strength, and have never believed.

And about the "fairy tale", I will tell you frankly, do not lie! USSR legislation was not a fairy tale... And it contained a lot, a lot that was beneficial to the workers. It is another matter that in a society of thieves, hereditary serfs, "laws do not work." Especially the Soviet ones, because their slaves never took justice seriously either, even when it was prescribed by law- did not want to defend.

[Mikhail Ya2]

And do not people from the same people write?

[voyaka uh]

Yes, the leaders are trying, pulling the strap.
And the people only think about themselves

[place]

Quote: voyaka uh

Yes, the leaders are trying, pulling the strap.
And the people only think about themselves

-------------------

Quote: ort

As far as I noticed, our people usually follow the strong ..

And you first wash your face, and then read once more what was written ... Our people are also very fond of lying. That is why the fate is like that.

[IS-80_RVGK2]

Quote: kalibr

Yes, we have no luck with the people of the advanced ideas!

And then. Already 30 years have passed, and still you cannot stifle the communist idea.

[andrew42]

Boris65, I completely agree with you. The idea fully justified itself, but could not protect itself from the penetration of shape-shifters to the level of "Idea keepers".

[Serg65]

Quote: andrew42

The idea was fully justified

How did it justify itself? And was there an idea?

Quote: andrew42

could not protect herself from the penetration of shape-shifters to the level of "Idea keepers".

And who of the ideological tried to protect from penetration? For all 74 years of the existence of the world's first "socialist" state, I have not found more than one attempt to defend the idea. Moreover, when the idea became higher than personal welfare, even Lenin chose welfare from the two!

[place]

Quote: Serg65

And who of the ideological tried to protect against penetration?

You and your ancestors had to defend an idea that was beneficial to you. Most of the population. But the whole trick is that, according to you, the "ideological good master" should defend justice, and the serfs are not responsible for the history of their own country. Therefore, we got what we deserved. A kick in the ass and extinction amid the migration of other peoples.

The times of the "good master" are over, because they realized: "ideological": to defend the "bright future" of lackeys and slaves - one must be fools themselves.

[Vend]

Quote: The same Lech

All sorts of "isms" are worth nothing if you have the opportunity to take, but your neighbor does not.

This means that over the 70 years of the power of the communists of the USSR, they have not been able to create a new person free of base vices ... lies, hatred, rudeness, arrogance, etc.
It is a pity that the idea of ​​freedom, equality and brotherhood has again failed to justify itself.

For this idea to win, equality must be at all levels, which is impossible. There is always someone who considers himself superior to everyone.

[kalibr]

"All animals are equal. But some are more equal than others." J. Orwell

[VIP]

Ideas of Equality, Freedom and Brotherhood - comes from Christ. Guys who read the Bible, specify ..
Perhaps this has passed with us, but some of the backward people, from the people, either "brushwood for the world revolution" or some other nasty thing invented. Dont and overtake Iowa

[bober1982]

Quote: V I P

Ideas of Equality, Freedom and Brotherhood - comes from Christ

This is the motto of the French Revolution, which was cleverly and successfully thrown into the crowd and, if at first these three words were just the motto of crazy people, then later it turned into a kind of "religion" of the crowd.
This slogan had no relation to biblical times and Christianity and has nothing to do with it.

[VIP]

It is based on early Christian teachings about social justice. I don't really go into the Scripture, but there is something like that

[bober1982]

Quote: V I P

but something like that is there

I strongly doubt it, shall we say, delicately.

[zenion]

It just has. You have not read the Gospel. Jesus said that only the righteous will go to Paradise. And the unrighteous one, he scattered the merchants near the temple of God, will never get into Paradise, it is easier for a camel to crawl through the eye of a needle than for an unrighteous one to get into Paradise. And Jesus did not mean to pray to God, but to act according to God's commandments, which are written in the Torah. To live according to God's commandments is to be human. Do not kill, do not steal, do not covet someone else's property, if your eye fell on your neighbor's wife - pluck out this eye. It was later that churches appeared that, for those who could not read, they reposted everything, for the good of those who had these benefits. As one writer of the Middle Ages wrote that the people are very pious, before cutting the traveler's throat, they kneel down and ask God for help. In general, now a lot in life reminds me as in one joke: a man is walking through the desert, and a lion is meeting him. The man fell to his knees and asked God to save him. At the same time, the lion raised his head to the sky and said - thank you God for the food sent down to me.

[bober1982]

And what does equality, brotherhood, freedom have to do with it?
This slogan is anti-Christian, it was invented by the Freemasons.

[andrew42]

But no. The New Man was created, perhaps not polished, and created in a very decent amount. The referendum for the preservation of the USSR cannot be removed from the song. And they missed the penetration of shape-shifters into the team of "creators". So Nya got into not "Astra", but into the clutches of Turanchoks (film "Through Thorns to the Stars").

[Mikhail Ya2]

It's just that people are used to voting "FOR". If they changed the question and in order to preserve the USSR it was necessary to choose "NO", say "Do you agree with the abolition of the USSR, and in its place the creation of 15 independent states", then the majority would have chosen "FOR"

[andrew42]

Vraki it. Maybe in the 70s you can kick for the "unchanging FOR". But in the case of the referendum on the preservation of the Union, this is not the case at all: the same Gorbachev, already since 1985, has been bugging "reforms / glasnost / openness / acceleration / perestroika" for several years. The overwhelming majority of people voted FOR with their eyes and deliberately. The Soviet people were naive, but intellectually developed, the then low-skilled workers will give odds to the current gadget users.

[mister-red]

I want to remind you of a very old story. In one of the Greek philosophers (Plato?), Some rich man took away a student and made him a drunkard and a burner of life. When he pointed out to the philosopher that he allegedly put so much effort into his education, and at the moment he lowered it to the very bottom, the philosopher replied: it is difficult to lift a stone uphill, but he will roll down himself.

[place]

Quote: The same LYOKHA

So for 70 years of the power of the communists of the USSR, they could not create

Quote: The same LYOKHA

It is a pity that the idea of ​​freedom, equality and brotherhood has not justified itself again

-------------

1 .. Heh-heh .... from the point of view of the serf of the 18th century, this is so: "the red master also cheated." The "communists" are simply nobles of a new type.

2 .. And from the point of view of this very "idea"? Marx's idea was to substantiate scientifically the emergence of a powerful labor movement in 19th century Europe.
In the beginning there is always a spontaneous mass social movement, which then receives a scientific basis and a political party.

3. In the 19th century, the workers who seized power in Paris in 1871 established a new type of democracy: "All Power to the Council" where the legislative and executive branches were unified, elected and accountable. This was the essence of the new idea,
and not at all in some obscure "equality and brotherhood"

4. If in the West, at least in the 20th century, workers were able to squeeze out of the owners considerable social guarantees even under capitalism, then in a country where there has never been a mass labor movement until now, nothing like this has happened at all. Lenin's hopes that having received the theory and state legislation, beneficial to the workers - workers will develop their own political activity - were not justified. Serfs are serfs and will remain.

[zenion]

So Hitler literally in a few years made a non-human out of enlightened Germany. Let in the USSR, they did not manage to achieve everything, that is a lie. They achieved so much that Europe was split. But Germany has boasted for 200 years of its writers, poets, scientists and philosophers. And Hitler crossed out all this in a few years.

[place]

Quote: zenion

So Hitler literally in a few years made a non-human out of enlightened Germany.

Hitler made beasts that threatened to destroy everyone in a row, and Yeltsin made idiots who ruined his country in peacetime, and they followed him and went and elected President 2 times. The more he trampled on the people, the more they licked everything. what can and cannot and there were no protests ....... So the Germans still turned out to be not so idiots ..... everything is learned by comparison.

[IS-80_RVGK2]

Quote: The same LYOKHA

This means that over the 70 years of the power of the communists of the USSR, they have not been able to create a new person free of base vices ... lies, hatred, rudeness, arrogance, etc.
It is a pity that the idea of ​​freedom, equality and brotherhood has again failed to justify itself.

Tweedleda blabalabla. Again this pretentious nonsense. Communists are not angels. The communists are a new public consciousness, a new approach to economics. But that doesn't make them angels. And at the heart of everything is an economic basis. There will be no basis, there will be no new person.

[Arman Abilsiitov]

Lies, hatred (to a lesser extent), rudeness, arrogance are integral to the Soviet system. They flourish in today's Russia, but they got it from the USSR. Together with the Soviet regime based on the principles of autocracy.

[Esoteric]

It's simple. The highest party and Komsomol bosses still visited the West, they had an idea of ​​how millionaires who hold power live there. And they? In fact, they are the masters of the country. And what do they have? Well, an apartment, a dacha, and even then not in the property, well, "black Volga" is not theirs. Well, special food, clothes, well, not everything. You can't buy a house in France, and you can't play in Monte Carlo. So they decided to arrange feudalism, where are all of them.

[kalibr]

Quote: Ezoterik

So they decided to arrange feudalism, where are all of them.

But they were raised by the pioneers, the Komsomol, the party ... Or ... not raised? How did you go to Zada ​​and rotted?

[unaha]

No one will clearly answer this simple question)))
And they will not want to admit that negative selection occurs not because of specific individuals, but because of the curve of the system.

[andrew42]

Well, yes, for that now in our country the selection is just class! All highly spiritual personalities ascend to the Russian "elita". , which are "nothing for themselves, everything for society." Straight old men are saints! And the guarantor is generally the second Sergius of Radonezh, and Mishustin is apparently the new John of Kronstadt. It is ridiculous to hear arguments about the curvature of the Soviet system from the Russian oligarchy living on the territory. Any "system" is dead without being filled with content, that is, people with certain moral principles and ideals in leadership positions. What is the inner quality of these guys - such is the system, regardless of the structure and parameters.

[kalibr]

Quote: andrew42

What is the internal quality of these guys - such is the system - regardless of the structure and parameters.

Yezhov, Beria, Khrushchev, Chernenko ... and .. and ... and ... many different "leaders" ...

[andrew42]

Caliber, what is this Fibbonacci series? Beria is Yezhov's enemy and gravedigger. Chernenko is a devoted friend of Brezhnev, both anti-Khrushchevites. Why did they end up in the same boat? And by the way, why did Chernenko not please you? He did not have time to do anything until that very "fish presentation", after which he went to the next world. But party control seemed to work well.

[unaha]

"Well, yes, for that now in our country the selection is just class!" - so nothing has changed))). The selection remained on the principle: "we do not need the smart ones, we need the faithful." Well, even "nepotism" and clannishness became more pronounced.
With outward signs of democracy and Western principles for the formation of branches of power, in our country, in fact, nothing has changed, it seems to me, since the times of the Moscow princes ((

[kalibr]

Quote: unaha

negative selection occurs not because of specific individuals, but because of the curve of the system - they do not want to.

That's bad!

[aakvit]

How to say!
I had an acquaintance in my childhood and youth, and so his and his dad's dream is to join the regional committee of the Komsomol party, at least somehow, but to settle down! There, they say, is a feeder, there are people, a gompoda, and not simple ones ...
And, you know, the dream came true, but only late, 93-95. And he just didn't have time to integrate into the system!
So everyone was raised by "pioneers, Komsomol, party", but we all grew up different! Apparently, the parents also somehow participated ?!

[mister-red]

Yes, I remember Basayev was also a Komsomol leader. The only question is that there were few ideological ones, they mostly made a career.

[passerby]

Quote: Ezoterik

It's simple. The highest party and Komsomol bosses still visited the West, they had an idea of ​​how millionaires who hold power live there. And they? In fact, they are the masters of the country. And what do they have? Well, an apartment, a dacha, and even then not in the property, well, "black Volga" is not theirs. Well, special food, clothes, well, not everything. You can't buy a house in France, and you can't play in Monte Carlo. So they decided to arrange feudalism, where are all of them.

The funny thing is that you do not even suspect that you are now citing one of the arguments of Trotsky, who was killed on the orders of Stalin, in essence, quoting excerpts from his theory of a deformed workers' state about the Soviet bureaucracy. But as you remember, Comrade Stalin did not appreciate these arguments and Comrade Trotsky was hit on the head with an ice pick.

[andrew42]

This "innocently crushed" Trotsky with his sidekicks was precisely creating the "new red bureaucracy", and was crying just because it was not possible to become the "new red nobility" around the neck of the Russian people, instead of the kicked out old Russian elite.

[passerby]

I'm not saying that he was "innocent" killed, I'm talking about the fact that he was killed by order of Stalin, including for his theory of a deformed workers' state, which very accurately predicted the fate of the USSR, which was destroyed by the Soviet bureaucracy, which wanted to become the owners of property belonging to the USSR.

[valerij zviozdkin]

nikakie bonzi, lideri, prezidenti do caria batiuski Nikolaja ne dotiagivali i vriad li kogda dotianut.tak slabaki.

[Bar1]

Quote: kalibr

The fish swim to where it is deeper, and people row to where it is better. That's all.

This is everything for you and still for fish, such a policy to snatch for yourself personally, this is capitalist and eager relations. Stalin left this, but after his death his successors lost to representatives of another Trotskyist-opportunist line, when the collective was pushed aside by voluntarism from above the placed individual.

[kalibr]

Quote: Bar1

Stalin left this

And gone far?

[Serg65]

Quote: Bar1

but after his death his successors lost to representatives of another Trotskyist-opportunist line

And who are these receivers ?????

[Bar1]

Quote: Serg65

Quote: Bar1

but after his death his successors lost to representatives of another Trotskyist-opportunist line

And who are these receivers ?????

Khrushchev is those who were in his team, mainly from the Ukrainian party organization.

[Serg65]

Quote: Bar1

Khrushchev is those who were in his team, mainly from the Ukrainian party organization.

Hmm ... who then ..

Quote: Bar1

representatives of another Trotskyist-opportunist line

??

[Ros 56]

Are you proposing to become a pack of animals, since this is a natural state? Forward and with a song.

[Glory1974]

Ostrovsky wrote that there are people, wolves and sheep. So the wolves ate the sheep.

And this expression is familiar to me from Dudaev. He told the Chechens: "If you are a sheep - endure, if you are a wolf - go and take it," All the people associating themselves with a wolf went to take.

[andrew42]

Ostrovsky screwed up here, sucking on his ingenious idea. At least there are wolfhounds and shepherds. And this is about the flock. In humans, everything is much more complicated. Sometimes celebrities give out such pearls, which are then glued in bus salons.

[AllBiBek]

I disagree on both points.
Firstly, the fish swims not where it is deeper, but where it is warmer and more satisfying. For in the depths there are completely different orders, and any eloks who are dissatisfied with their elokishness are met there not even by the Morlocks of their environment, but by the Morlocks of their Environment.
Secondly, at all times people have rowed not where it is better, but from where conditions are created for them - it never gets worse, and what is there at the end of the route - time will tell.

[Dimy4]

such a mutation of the communists did not fit into my head.

Yes, yes, yesterday at a party meeting with faces full of ideological zeal, they scolded you for some trifle. And a day later, feeling the opportunity to grab well and get rid of the interfering ideology, they abruptly stopped being communists. I've seen them.

[kalibr]

- If a person is morally
decomposed about it should be straight
say, not laugh, you know! ..
And then, this is a kind of
you do not understand ..
So that means, with all
severity, comrades,
come out like people and abruptly
so straight
pose a question, here! Well,
let's comrades, otherwise have
I don't have much time.

[tatra]

Everything fits perfectly into the head, knowing what the enemies of the communists are on the territory of the USSR, who always pretend to be those who are beneficial to them at the moment. And there is no difference between those of you who, under communist rule, pretended to be communists and their supporters for the sake of profit, and immediately proved their fierce hatred of the communists, as soon as one of you, Gorbachev, seized power and launched anti-communist Perestroika, and all of you the rest, who for the sake of profit in slandering the communists pretend to be "great philanthropists", and when there is no benefit - in relation to the people in the Russian Empire, and the republics of the USSR that you captured - show their real inhuman essence.

[Same lech]

I wonder if you will catch up to the highest power ... how your current philosophy will change ... whether you will shoot and imprison people for thoughts you dislike. ?
Will you begin to divide people into ideological and non-ideological ... maybe you will register the other half in concentration camps?
But what to guess .... Thank God that you are not the president of Russia.

[tatra]

You do not "translate the arrows", but answer in essence my comment, if there is anything to refute - go ahead, no - go by. No matter how the enemies of the communists may otkish their benefactor Gorbachev, none of you is able to prove how without him the USSR could have been destroyed, and you got this life, in which you have been proving the supporters of the communists for 30 years, like all of you, "but now it's better than in the USSR "because you HAVE GOT a lot.

[Same lech]

Personally, I only had a headache from Gorbachev's activities ...
As for the communists ... I was offered to join the Communist Party of the USSR ... but I refused, but not because I allegedly hated the communists ... but because I did not believe in the viability of their ideology.
Moreover, I consider many ordinary communists to be honest and decent people and have seen how they experienced the collapse of the CPSU.
I never wanted the life of the gangster 90s, but I also never wanted egalitarianism under the USSR.
You communists could not catch the changes in society in time and lead these changes while remaining on your dogmas of faith ... there is nothing permanent in the world ... perhaps you stubborn communists will never understand this.

[tatra]

Everything is in the classical style of the enemies of the communists, including their benefactors Gorbachev, Yeltsin, Putin - "loyal communists" who "got their sight" exactly when the communists ceased to be profitable, "and we have nothing to do with it, and I have nothing to do with it", and maniacal criticism communists.

[Same lech]

and manic criticism of the communists.

And the same maniacal criticism of the opponents of the communists ... eternal battle ... we only dream of peace.
Have you ever tried to come to an agreement of society at the negotiating table?

[IS-80_RVGK2]

Quote: The same LYOKHA

Have you ever tried to come to an agreement of society at the negotiating table?

I don’t want to upset you, but apparently I have to. It doesn't work that way. The progressive always cuts out the reactionary in the struggle. Because otherwise the reactionary will cut out the progressive and progress will multiply by zero.

[unaha]

"You communists could not catch the changes in society in time and lead these changes while remaining on your dogmas of faith" - if reality does not correspond to dogma, so much the worse for reality)))

[IS-80_RVGK2]

Yeah, this is especially clearly seen on the adherents of the market economy.

[unaha]

If this is the answer to me, then please open your thought. I cannot answer otherwise)
What exactly is visible?

[andrew42]

The same LYOKHA, Wow! We have a third ideological force! This means that the communist ideology is not viable, the capitalist-gangster (and gangsterism and usury is the first phase of capital accumulation) also did not fit. Share what is this new mega-concept that is both viable and not killing. Do you have it?

[fif21]

Quote: andrew42

The same LYOKHA, Wow! We have a third ideological force!

And I agree with Lehoy! Capitalism is now with a communist grin. Enough to powder the brains of people with all sorts of ideologies. There should be one "ideology" - if a person works, then he should live with dignity and die too. And those handouts that the rulers throw from the lord's table to the people, these people only humiliate and embitter.

[andrew42]

"Capitalism with a communist grin" is a diagnosis, sorry. I'm not a blind fan of K. Marx and Ulyanov-Blanc, but you need to know the basics! I don't even know what to compare your oxymoron with. Even a "killer-savior" doesn't fit (maybe the point of getting rid of the torment). Further, I see no reason to expand into a discussion of such nonsense.

[fif21]

Quote: andrew42

I don't even know what to compare your oxymoron with. Even a "killer savior" doesn't fit

And free medicine, free education, public servants ... under capitalism, how is it? And the capital of Karl Marx is a textbook on capitalist economics, relevant now, this is the alphabet! But my friend Lenin is not to know, well, just a shame! - a textbook on the revolution - how to make private property public. So, we have a topic for discussion with you!

[andrew42]

fif21, you read somewhere from me that I did not study the works of Lenin and Marx? Where does the conclusion come from? At least during my youth, Lenin's Teradi from the 8th grade were forced to take notes, and even the History of the CPSU was an obligation in the university. As for CAPITAL, it can be called a textbook only in the second place. It's political economy, not HSE economics.

[andrew42]

"And free medicine, free education, public servants ... under capitalism, how is it?" - What are you talking about? There is no "free" thing in the economy. There are government support or private services. But what is the political formation of the state, so is the provision. In the USSR, they paid for it with labor and returned it to everyone, in Germany they pay taxes, and not everyone is returned, and in different ways. Moreover, after the fall of the USSR, the Western bourgeoisie did not have an opponent system, and since the 90s these "capitalist services" of yours have been emasculated on the increase.

[fif21]

Quote: andrew42

during my youth, Lenin's Teradi from the 8th grade were forced to take notes, and even the history of the CPSU was a duty in the university.

Forced! That is, under duress. And what conclusion have you come to? What really happened in the USSR - corresponded to the teachings of Lenin?

Quote: andrew42

There is no "free" thing in the economy. There are government support or private services.

And this is true! A woman cannot be half pregnant! Therefore, in power now, well, not as servants of the people, we can also say that if they are servants, then servants are not of the Russian people. If there is capitalism in the Russian Federation, then why did the state leave education and health care free for citizens? Why does the state have a share of ownership in natural monopolies and commercial structures? And this gives reason to say that in the Russian Federation the power of one party and the Leninist NEP. Which gives me the right to assert that the Russian capitalism is with a communist grin. (censorship, repression, persecution of dissidents, purges) Or are my conclusions not correct?

[mister-red]

My aunt worked as a printer in a printing house and was a communist. There was only one privilege - to work the best.
I never wanted to be a communist, although to be honest, I accept the ideology even now, only realizing that this is not exactly a utopia, but not actual. Not then and not now.
Back in school, I thought that communism would come when robots would do all the dirty work. Well, a person will not voluntarily dive into a sewer well with shit to honor something there. This is figuratively, such works are a dime a dozen, including in a beautiful modern office.

[Serg65]

Quote: tatra

No matter how the enemies of the communists may discourage their benefactor Gorbachev

And if I tell you that Stalin laid the seeds of the collapse, you won't have a heart attack? I can easily prove it!

[tatra]

Ha, surprised. So according to your "ideology", the enemies of the communists, and your Yeltsin-Putin government, it is Lenin's fault in general that YOU seized the USSR, YOU divided it into your evil anti-Soviet-Russophobic "independence", YOU imposed YOUR power on them and their peoples YOUR System with a huge income gap between YOU and the people, YOUR capitalist economy, YOUR ideology is an evil and cowardly anti-Sovietism. And all of you are "not at all worthy".

[Esoteric]

I would like to answer you. I really like the ideas of communism, where there is no state at all, where there is no oppression, where there is no such thing as money, where all people are brothers. Where everyone's needs are satisfied, where crime is completely absent. Show me a person who would not want to live in such conditions. I think there are few of them, right?
But we do not live in a fairy tale, such a life is the destiny of an extremely distant future, when completely, pardon the computer terminology, the brain, soul, and desires of a person are reformatted. A person must become different. But while he is like that, with all his weaknesses and desires, he wants to be better than others, he professes the principle of "push the falling one", and in this historical period your theory is not viable. I like the ideas of communism, but I really do not like the communists.

[Serg65]

Quote: tatra

So according to your "ideology", the enemies of the communists, and your Yeltsin-Putin government, it is Lenin's fault in general that YOU have seized the USSR

And when Stalin destroyed the Bolshevik-Leninists, what did he seize?

[Ross xnumx]

Quote: The same LYOKHA

. will you shoot and imprison people for thoughts you dislike.

Now you want to tell us about the fate of A. Politkovskaya, L. Rokhlin, General Petrov K.P., Platoshkin N.N., Grudinin P.N.? Are you completely overeating your fish soup?
What do you order us to do? Give Chubais coupons for enhanced nutrition? Or assign the second brother Rottenberg a Hero of Labor?

[Bar1]

relations - you to me, I to you, I am on my own, and you on my own, individualism against collectivism - such an order was unfortunately grown in the USSR. Trade-money relations against the declared communist relations, from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs probably stopped after Stalin's death.
In the post-war years, people lived poorly and hungry, but the principle of socialist equality was observed sacredly, therefore, Stalin's sons were lieutenant pilots and ordinary military men, and Stalin himself was modest in everyday life, he himself, like everyone else, did not allow him to get rich beyond measure. You can remember how Stalin took the loot in Germany from Zhukov. And it was right, the country of the Soviets in which the people were the leader, and not a bunch of billionaires, as now this is exactly what Stalin was leading the country to. Unfortunately, there were imbalances with collectivization, there was simply not enough food for everyone, and the agriculture inherited from RI was in In its infancy, and not even just in its infancy, but in a skewed principle. Monocultures that require plowing the land did not give the necessary crops, which led to hunger, and the annual use of the same land for monocultures depletes the land - this is not the correct way of farming on earth in principle.
There were distortions with national relations, when the Russian people, who were most susceptible to collectivism, were pushed into the background wherever possible, but national representatives who had no idea of ​​collectivism at all, and also created national republics on lands not owned by these peoples. It was Stalin's mistake as a nationalist.
The collectivism that Stalin instilled was not to the liking of some of the Nazis.
Yes, and not all processes in the country were directed by Stalin, he could not afford to cover everything.
After Stalin, the principle of socialist equality was violated by Khrushchev, the party members became not subject to jurisdiction and could do anything.
Brezhnev generally launched the entire economy, which the people noted immediately calling this time an era of stagnation. Well, after Brezhnev, it is not clear at all, the people of the USSR were given, as a given, a DEFICIENCY OF EVERYTHING, from meat and sausage to clothing. Mass housing construction started under Stalin was involuntary. continued by the rest of the general secretaries. This was one of the few real achievements of socialism.
At some point, people who no longer wanted to build socialism came to rule the country, had completely different tasks - to expand the movement of the Soviet country on the capitalist path. They nod at Gorbachev, but I think it is necessary to start the investigation with Khrushchev and Brezhnev.
For example Brezhnev agreed with the Americans to refuse to develop space and close the manhole to the Lunar scam in return? well, like for all sorts of deliveries of bread at low prices and for this false detente.
There were Peter's, and Dnepropetrovsk's, as Professor Pyzhikov said, they achieved what they wanted - all life is one continuous feast, to eat and drink and throw bottles at the window.

[tatra]

I don’t need to answer according to the ideology of the enemies of the communists and your Yeltsin-Putin regime, "and we have nothing to do with it, it's all the communists are to blame." In very rare cases, even for the sake of profit, the enemies of the communists are able to discuss - as normal people, including the fact that both the Bolshevik communists and their supporters, and their enemies, discuss the October Revolution according to what the Bolshevik communists and their supporters did , and not because of what those from whom they took the country did.
ALWAYS in world history the responsibility for the seizure of their country was borne not by those from whom the country was taken away, but by those who seized the country. But the enemies of the communists on the territory of the USSR are in everything an anomaly of humanity, including the fact that they are not guilty of those who betrayed, but those who were betrayed.

[BAI]

ALWAYS in world history, the responsibility for the capture of their country was borne not by those who were robbed of the country, but by those who captured the country

Nothing like this. Those who were captured are primarily to blame, because:
1. Either they had an inept foreign policy (Switzerland is small and weak, but it was not captured either in WWI or WWII).
2. Either they did not have the strength to defend (the DPRK successfully opposes the USA, Iraq, Yugoslavia - they were blown away, because they did not have nuclear weapons).

[fif21]

Quote: tatra

it is in all an anomaly of humanity, including the fact that they are not guilty of those who betrayed, but those who were betrayed.

The hair is long, the mind is short, and the memory is maiden! Sorry! They asked for it.

[unaha]

“The driving force of“ perestroika ”was the union of various social and ethnocultural groups: part of the degenerated Soviet party, state and economic nomenklatura, which wanted to overcome the imminent crisis of legitimacy through the division of property and wealth while preserving its position in the new“ democratic ”Russia, on its ruins; liberal pro-Western intelligentsia, who demanded "freedom" and "democracy"; ethnocracy and regional elites; "shadow people", criminals. " - in the articles of the author, the feeling is created that all these personalities "planted enemies" ... well, or they flew from Mars, and did not "mature" as a result of natural socio-economic and political processes.

[Ross xnumx]

Quote: The same LYOKHA

And who was the driving force behind Gorbachev's perestroika ... just the party nomenclature of the union level ...

Can you suggest the three letters that denote the abbreviation of the committee that "allowed" the USSR party nomenclature to take these steps towards liberal values ​​and market relations?

[kalibr]

And there, it means, they made their way and destroyed ... And our "there" for some reason did not get anywhere, although the "commies" were fed all over the world.

[Serg65]

Quote: ROSS 42

Can you suggest the three letters that denote the abbreviation of the committee that "allowed" the USSR party nomenclature to take these steps towards liberal values ​​and market relations?

By itself, the committee could not strike a finger, the curator from the Central Committee would immediately howl like a gray! And who was the curator?

[fif21]

Quote: The same LYOKHA

such a mutation of the communists did not fit into my head.

Many henpecked "combiners" had their own Raisa Maksimovna! The country was ruled not by communists, but by party officials (as now) in this you are right.

[valerij zviozdkin]

privet aleksej.sovetskij sojuz razvalilsia ot coca-koli.ocen prosto.a do etogo vo 2-oj mirovoj adolf bil prosto kokainovim narkomanom.tak izvinite.spasibo.

[passerby]

There are a lot of empty words and no specifics. The fact that the economic system built in the USSR turned out to be ineffective, inoperable and did not provide rates of economic growth that would allow fighting the West on an equal footing was evident in the 80s and now. The question was how to reform this system. It was this question that the USSR could not solve and the result of this failure was the collapse of the country. Why they could not solve the problem of reforming is actually an interesting question. In my opinion, they could not decide because they tried to cross a snake with a hedgehog and did not understand that it was impossible, that it would not work. Without a market and free pricing, all attempts to reform the economy were meaningless, and the market and free pricing are incompatible with the command-administrative system, which normatively sets plans and prices for everything. This is a utopia, it is impossible. And the scientists economists of the USSR, headed by Abalkin, based on the analysis of the 500-day program, simply could not understand this.

[Same lech]

.

In my opinion, they could not decide because they tried to cross a snake with a hedgehog and did not understand that it was impossible, that it would not work.

For some reason, the Chinese succeeded ... though they saw from our experience how not to do perestroika.

[kalibr]

Quote: The same LYOKHA

For some reason, the Chinese succeeded ...

And the Chinese did not succeed; they were just not 70 years old, but less. Therefore, it did not collapse so loudly. But everything is different there now. And the PDA ... that's one name. A tribute to tradition, nothing more.

[Same lech]

And the PDA ... that's one name. A tribute to tradition, nothing more.

So our current communists are no better ... do not hesitate to work in the State Duma with the damned capitalists.

[kalibr]

Quote: The same LYOKHA

So our current communists are no better ... do not hesitate to work in the State Duma with the damned capitalists.

What did you want? For them to go to the barricades? For whom?

[unaha]

Not really, they shared the economy and ideology. And it is the economy that prevails. Ideology does not climb into the economy and only "spud" citizens from the position of loyalty to the political elite.

[Serg65]

Quote: kalibr

And the Chinese failed

Well, why, as soon as Mao turned away from the west and turned his gaze to the east, the process of crossing began so immediately!

[passerby]

The Chinese did not abandon the market, in fact they built state capitalism. The market economy balances price and demand, and it does not matter who owns the enterprise, the state or an individual. In the USSR, however, they built a command-administrative system in which prices and production volumes were set in a normative way. And who needs volumes without quality and at prices taken from the ceiling. So it turned out that when you look at the statistics, it seems that everything is good, the Soviet economy is growing, everyone should live better and better, but in fact, the permanent deficit of everything, plus the quality of Soviet goods, does not suit anyone, everyone wants German shoes, Romanian furniture, French perfume, etc. by the list. And when, in the late 80s, Soviet scientists recalculated this very statistics based on natural, not cost indicators, it turned out that Soviet economic growth was overstated 13 times and in the 11th five-year period it generally turned into a fall, and then everything fell into place. places.

[Varyag_0711]

random passerby (Igor)
The Chinese did not abandon the market, in fact they built state capitalism. The market economy balances price and demand, and it does not matter who owns the enterprise, the state or an individual. In the USSR, however, they built a command-administrative system in which prices and production volumes were set in a normative way.

Let's do it, the USSR was different, there was NEP even under Lenin, there were also private cooperatives under Stalin, and there was also a famine under the stsuk-khreshche-maize-worker.
In fact, the collapse of the USSR occurred immediately after Khrushchev came to power.
Under Stalin, a new person was actually created, well, almost created. They created a creator person, not a consumer, but a creator. But apparently you can't kill human nature, which is true, the shpakovsky in all its wretched "beauty" is frolicking at full speed ... Why, not spit once again in the USSR, it won't be him.

[kalibr]

Quote: Varyag_0711

well, almost created

This "well" is simply delightful ... Khrushchev is a "new man", Brezhnev is a "new man", Shepilov ... is also a new one. And Gorbachev ... at the same time was born ... a pioneer, Komsomol member, member of the CPSU, order bearer ...

[Varyag_0711]

kalibr (Vyacheslav)
This "well" is simply delightful ... Khrushchev is a "new man", Brezhnev is a "new man", Shepilov ... is also a new one. And Gorbachev ... at the same time was born ... a pioneer, Komsomol member, member of the CPSU, order bearer ...

To our great regret, a MAN has never been created from you, moreover, you seem to be by education and were the one who was OBLIGED to create a new Soviet man. Not?!
It was people like you who were part of that system for creating a new person, but it was precisely such shape-shifters as you, deeply disrespectful Mr. Shpakovsky, who perverted this system to complete degradation. The idea itself was great, but with performers like you, it turned into squalor.
On good terms, people like you should have been strangled in diapers, you look and society would be cleaner and more beautiful.

[passerby]

The idea itself was useless and it could not end with anything but failure and the performers had nothing to do with it. It's like blaming the Wolves for devouring the trainer who wanted to make them vegans. Like, the idea itself was a good one. To make Wolves vegans is so wonderful and the wolves, as they say, are full and the sheep are safe, but the wolves of the reptiles of the wrong system turned out to be, did not appreciate the noble impulse and ate the benefactor.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Varyag_0711

To our great regret, a MAN was never created from you,

Your comment: "Not in the eyebrow, but in the eye!" 100% agree!

[Mikhail Ya2]

What is this wonderful system, if to preserve it, you need to strangle someone in diapers?

[passerby]

Under Stalin, by the Decree of 26.061940/XNUMX/XNUMX, workers in the USSR, following the peasants, were turned into serfs, who could not even quit their jobs without the permission of their boss and were obliged to work under the threat of criminal liability, since not going to work again was a criminal offense, and you are talking about "Creator man".

[Varyag_0711]

random passerby (Igor)
Under Stalin, by a decree of 26.061940, workers in the USSR, following the peasants, were turned into serfs, who could not even quit their jobs without the permission of their boss and were obliged to work under the threat of criminal liability

There is no need to pull the owl onto the globe and shift the realities of that time to the present. Then the country was on the verge of war and the time itself demanded tough, and sometimes brutal actions.
As for the enslavement of peasants and workers, modern serf owners have long surpassed Stalin, Stolypin, and even Catherine the Great. Or are you a free star now ?!

[passerby]

In 1940, there was no global war, just the workers from the conditions and the amount of wages began to scatter them into serfs and turned them so that it was discouraging, i.e. drove into much worse conditions than they were before the revolution. And yes, now I am much freer than then, now I have written a letter of resignation and after 2 weeks I am free and I do not need anyone's permission and no one will throw me in prison for repeated absenteeism. These are facts, and your only fairy tales are empty and attempts to justify the regime that exploited the workers and peasants so mercilessly, as it was not in tsarist Russia not now.

[unaha]

Well, in fairness for the sake of the workers, the "regime" exploited far less mercilessly than the peasants. And definitely much less than in RI.
Here the peasants were "mercilessly" exploited, perhaps until the 60s. Then the village felt very much better.
The social achievements of socialism should not be underestimated. It is another matter that, based on an abnormal economic and political foundation, the final that happened was probably inevitable.

[passerby]

I would argue about "much less than in RI", about the rest I completely agree.

[unaha]

"As for" much less than in Ingushetia, "I would argue" - here it is probably worth separating skilled workers of high ranks whose conditions in Ingushetia could be better than in the USSR from all others.

[Varyag_0711]

random passerby (Igor)
There was no global war in 1940

Excuse me, are you generally sane? How was it that there was no war in 1940? And WWII did not start in 1939? Or in the leadership of the USSR, everyone is the same as you de Neraths sat and did not see what was going on?

[passerby]

Quote: Varyag_0711

random passerby (Igor)
There was no global war in 1940

Excuse me, are you generally sane? How was it that there was no war in 1940? And WWII did not start in 1939? Or in the leadership of the USSR, everyone is the same as you de Neraths sat and did not see what was going on?

You have already been answered below. I will only add that the decree of 26.06.1940/1940/1956 applied to all workers, and not only to those who produced strategically important goods necessary for the war, but also to janitors, pastry chefs, etc. What kind of times were these, from XNUMX to XNUMX, that people of purely peaceful professions could not voluntarily quit their jobs? Apparently it is you who cannot be changed, if you justify such measures by the war in which the USSR did not even participate, moreover, you justify these measures even when the war ended long ago.

[strannik1985]

measures of a war in which the USSR did not even participate

I didn’t participate, but I was preparing. Since June 1940, the only serious enemy left for the Reich in Europe is the USSR.
And after 1945 there was a restoration of the country against the background of the emergence of a new confrontation, now with NATO.

[passerby]

Quote: strannik1985

measures of a war in which the USSR did not even participate

I didn’t participate, but I was preparing. Since June 1940, the only serious enemy left for the Reich in Europe is the USSR.
And after 1945 there was a restoration of the country against the background of the emergence of a new confrontation, now with NATO.

Now we, too, are opposing NATO, and before that there was a war of 1914, and in 1905 there was a war with Japan, but neither then nor now did they make serfs from the citizens of our country, and the communists in 1940 turned the workers after the peasants into serfs, and you are also trying to justify them, I must say a pathetic attempt.

[strannik1985]

Now we also confront NATO

Now there is a strategic nuclear forces, there is no need to maintain a large land army, for example, the number of SA in 1953 was 5 396 thousand people.

[passerby]

In 1905 and 1914 there was no strategic nuclear forces, but no one was made serfs

[strannik1985]

Oh yes, only both wars were lost, and the last one turned into a partial collapse of the country and a civil war. And in this war, Russia had allies in Europe.

[passerby]

Of course, it was necessary to make serfs out of the citizens of Russia, then we would have won both wars. You cannot turn your fellow citizens into slaves and exploit them mercilessly, and when they begin to scatter from such treatment, throw them into camps. This cannot be done and there can be no justification for this.

[Aviator_]

There was no global war in 1940

Did you go to school? Since September 1939, World War II was already underway.

[passerby]

Quote: Aviator_

There was no global war in 1940

Did you go to school? Since September 1939, World War II was already underway.

You can see how many wars are going on in the world now, but nobody turns you into a serf slave. Why is this so?

[IS-80_RVGK2]

Quote: bystander

Why so?

The question is not of the husband, but of the student.

[IS-80_RVGK2]

I wonder if you really believe in this nonsense that you write? By 1940, it had long been clear that a big war was coming and therefore the industry had to be driven in an emergency mode. Which was done. By the way, now we are going to the same. One hope for nuclear weapons. We inherited from the wrong planned economy.

[BAI]

Under Stalin, a new person was actually created, well, almost created.

Forget about creating a "new" person. All psychologists unanimously argue that if a wife (husband) tries to remake her husband (wife) against his (her) will, this will inevitably lead to divorce. And then whole peoples were trying to remake. This is the main reason for the collapse of the USSR (the collapse of the idea of ​​socialism) - an attempt to mold a new person against his will. As in marriage - for many years everything is fine (outwardly), and then - once and divorce, for no apparent reason. Why? And it has accumulated.
You cannot be happy under a stick.

[kalibr]

Quote: BAI

You cannot be happy under a stick.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++

[BAI]

Have you noticed how the people react to the same words uttered by different people? This is for you for the new edition of the textbook on PR technologies.

[kalibr]

Quote: BAI

Have you noticed how the people react to the same words uttered by different people? This is for you for the new edition of the textbook on PR technologies.

This is because I am personally better known than you and I represent, so to speak, just a "visible public evil". There is even a photo, there is a biography on the Internet. You're just anonymous. But it was noticed very correctly, which once again speaks of your intelligence and observation!

[Pravodel]

Dear strange wanderer, we heard enough of such liberal nonsense, nonsense, Anglo-Saxon nonsense already in the 90s, stop lying, presenting a lie for the truth. During the period of its development, the USSR developed at a rate exceeding the global rate !!! This is the truth.
Let me remind you, a passionate defender of liberalism, that during the period of the 30s before the start of the war, 9000 enterprises were built in the USSR, whole sectors of the national economy were created: petrochemistry, aircraft construction, mechanical engineering, engine construction, construction of steam locomotives, carriages, etc., and etc., and this is during the global crisis. As a result of the war, the USSR suffered colossal human and economic losses, but managed to recover by the end of the 50s, by 1950 the volume of industrial production exceeded the pre-war level by 73%. Therefore, your main thesis about the insignificant, if not negative, rates of development of the USSR is the purest liberal lie that does not withstand any, even insignificant, criticism of a schoolchild who is familiar with illiberal stories of the USSR.
As the article correctly points out, the reason for the collapse of the USSR lies not in the economic, but in the political, ideological plane, in the struggle for power, which began after the death of the leader of the peoples of I.V. Stalin. After the XX Congress, the destruction and collapse of the USSR was already inevitable, it could not be prevented, because that thread was destroyed, pulled out of the people, that fundamental idea for which the people worked and went to hardship and suffering: faith in a bright future, in a better life for children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren. Yes, it was “faith in a bright future,” no matter how you, liberals, screeched, grunt and splattered saliva from this, moved, lifted our people to all those feats that they performed during the construction of a new country. Precisely because the main idea was destroyed, the people did not come out to defend the USSR during the collapse of the country. The idea was gone, and the country was gone.
That is why China, after looking at what you liberals did with the country in the 90s, came to the conclusion: China will not go this way. The result is known. China is the world's 2nd economy.
PS
Look back and see what you liberals have done to the country: how many enterprises have been destroyed, destroyed, how many branches of the national economy have been liquidated, to what degradation and poverty have the army and the people brought, and compare with what Stalin did during his reign: how many enterprises He built how many new industries he created, how he strengthened and re-equipped the army, which crushed fascism and hoisted the banner of Victory over the Reichstag, mobilized the people to win and restore the economy destroyed by the war. Therefore, the people remember and honor Stalin, but they spit on you, the liberals, as on the filthy creatures and traitors who stuck to the state in the 90s and do not let it out of their filthy clutches, which do not allow it to develop at Stalin's pace.

[Krasnodar]

1) So the economic growth of the USSR was caused by the world crisis - equipment and technologies were bought for a cap of crackers
2) The collapse of the USSR was due to inept management - they missed the electronic boom of the 70s, investing in the development of expensive (then) oil fields, clogging up other areas of the petrochemical industry, except for the military-industrial complex. As a result, when oil was expensive and wheat was cheap, everything was ok. When it became the other way around, bankruptcy came.
3) China is a capitalist country with a bad social system and oligarchs in the CCP. A third of pensioners do not receive a pension at all, about 40% - around 3000 rubles a month. The social sector is improving little by little, the vector of development is Singaporean, but by no means Soviet.
4) Under Stalin, upon the arrival of trains, the clocks were checked)). For development at a Stalinist pace, it is necessary to imprison for theft, and everyone - from a worker to the head of state corporations. It is necessary to jail for being late for work, etc. The people will roar, first of all, the common people who have been weaned from working since Khrushchev will roar from these rates.

[strannik1985]

So the economic growth of the USSR

Only by the structure of the economy and the financial system, the crisis affected the Soviet economy in the same way, for example, grain prices fell.

The collapse of the USSR is due to

The coup has nothing to do with the economy.

China is

FDI in the economy of the PRC has long been over a hundred billion dollars annually. In a similar situation (the 30s, with the difference that the USSR BUY technology), the Soviet economy grew by leaps and bounds.

It is necessary to plant

Distorted or ignorance of the subject. Labor legislation was tightened just before the war, at the same time, tuition fees and other, not popular, measures were introduced.

[Krasnodar]

1) Grain prices fell - but the Union bought technology not only for Grain - values, incl. cultural and historical, went to pay for the cheaper Equipment
2) What coup? The economy was inefficient due to leftist governance
3) I did not understand the connection with foreign investment in the PRC and the Soviet economy
4) I'm talking about what is needed now for development at a Stalinist pace

[strannik1985]

Grain prices fell

And everything that you have listed has dropped in price.

What coup?

The most ordinary, the power has nothing to do with the economy, otherwise the DPRK would have changed the regime long ago.

I do not understand

And it is direct - they invest in China and therefore it is successful, the USSR, in similar conditions (30s), demonstrated an explosive economic growth.

I say

The first five-year plan began in 1929, the ban on unauthorized leaving work came out on June 26, 1940.

[Krasnodar]

1) Gained in volumes, the price ratio due to the crisis became in favor of the Union, as well as access to these very technologies
2) So Gorbachev went to democratization for economic reasons, the Kims did not want to lose power, and at the cost of starvation (the population, they themselves lived well) preserved it
3) So China created the conditions for FDI and did it not to the detriment of agriculture, unlike the USSR. As a result, oil for food was not there. There were other stupid experiments, but still 40% of Chinese people are rural
4) Yes, but many were imprisoned "for sabotage" due to systematic delays))

[strannik1985]

Collected in volumes

In 1930 (4,8 million tons) -1931 (5,6 million), 1932 - 1,8 million, 1933 - 1,69. In total, for the period 1929-1933, they sold 14,8 million tons of grain, receiving 444,5 ~ 500 million rubles, or about 222 million dollars in 5 years. After 1933, the export of grain declined sharply, its share in the structure is 8-10%. What else did you add in volumes?

So Gorbachev

In the sense of conscience entered?

This is how China created the conditions for FDI

Those. The Cold War has nothing to do with it?

Yes, but many

How many? Article 58-14 (counter-revolutionary sabotage) provides for a punishment of 1 year in prison with confiscation of property

[Krasnodar]

1) As I wrote - values, incl. cultural and historical)) Read about Hammer's activities - the volumes are painted
2) No idea, conscientiously or not, dumber - for sure. But more humane - in the short term.
3) Yes, of course, I forgot - the Cold War! Plus an annual harvest battle China until the end of the 60s was at the forefront of the Cold War, Korea and support for Vietnam.
4) The grandmothers told me about the divisions - they weren't late for work under Stalin - they imprisoned me for sabotage from the third time

[strannik1985]

As I wrote

Have you written statements, will there be numbers?

But more humane

Oh yes, 5 million unemployed by 1995, rampant banditry, ethnic conflicts - Karabakh, Chechnya, Transnistria, Tajikistan It was a great time, the very peak of "humanity".

China until the late 60s

But then the miracles of "ping-pong" diplomacy, and in the 80s, China supported the United States. Where is the logic? Against whom should the Union support America? Against the Martians?

I have money

They were imprisoned so that they had to introduce corrective labor for up to six months for absenteeism

[Krasnodar]

1) The most important source of financing for industrialization was the "pumping" of funds from agriculture - the export of grain abroad increased to obtain foreign exchange for the purchase of equipment. They also exported oil, gold, and other minerals, the production of which was increasing. If in the period 1924-1928 the average annual export of goods from the USSR in physical terms was 7,86 million tons, then in 1930 it increased to 21,3 million tons, and in 1931 - to 21,8 million tons. Even cultural values ​​from museums were sold abroad. In addition, domestic government loans were made, monetary emission increased, which caused inflation [29].
https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Индустриализация_в_СССР
2) How many starved to death in the DPRK at 90? This is better?
3) By the end of the 70s, detente began, the Jackson-Vanik amendment had to be canceled, etc. But - they entered Afghanistan and everything was covered with a copper basin. Including the USSR.
4) I'm writing about being late)).

[strannik1985]

The most important source of funding

Dear opponent, we have received 5 million rubles from the sale of grain in 444,5 years, expenses on the national economy for the same period 50,2 billion (billion) rubles. It remains to find out a mere trifle - where did they get another 49,7 billion.

How many died of hunger

Do you know a future that has not come? Has Gorbachev stopped a natural cataclysm?

By the end of the 70s, detente began

You can guess as much as you like, the real detente occurred when the Union abandoned all its allies in Europe.

I'm writing about being late))

And I'm talking about unauthorized leaving work, there is no one to make a plan, qualified workers changed their place of work as they wanted, they issued official papers retroactively. Therefore, in the 40s, they began to tighten the nuts.

[Krasnodar]

1) Well, not only grain was sold there - oil, gold, valuables.
2) A cataclysm for the DPRK was the sale of coal and oil at general market prices without subsidies
3) This is not a real detente, but a mediocre and free surrender to the West - my opinion, I do not impose.
4) For what I bought - for what I sell. although my grandmother was 39 years old at 14, maybe she was talking about the post-war period, or she knew from the words of her parents

[strannik1985]

Well, there is not only Grain

So I'm asking - will there be numbers? Or do you write at random?

Cataclysm

A cataclysm was the flood in 1994, as a result of the loss of 1,5 million tons of grain, destruction of 330 thousand hectares of the fertile layer, loss of housing for 5,4 million people.

It was not a real release

You can treat the phenomenon as you like, it does not change the situation.

What bought

http://militera.lib.ru/h/muhin_mu01/index.html

[unaha]

"For development at a Stalinist pace, it is necessary to jail for theft, and everyone - from a worker to the head of state corporations. It is necessary to jail for being late for work, etc." - will not help at any long distance. The administrative-command system "kills" the initiative and, as a result, stagnation is inevitable.

[Krasnodar]

I agree - that's why I'm a supporter of capitalism with a good social system - a la FRG

[strannik1985]

Can you remind me what the level of the Federal Republic of Germany has?

[Krasnodar]

: Plus to you - what average Russian or Soviet family has / was concerned about the state debt of the Federal Republic of Germany, which is 71% of its GDP, when 80% of the population of the Russian Federation or 95% of the population of the USSR is / was very far from the standard of living and medical care of a German cleaning lady or cashier in a supermarket ? ))

[strannik1985]

The most direct, because the USSR / RF cannot support the economy by non-economic methods, simply by printing unsecured money And so I completely agree with you, printing money is always more profitable!

[Krasnodar]

EURO? How not provided? Backed by 80 rubles
Germany's GDP last year exceeded 4 trillion, compared with Russia's 1,7 EMNIP. Mercedes, Audi, Bauer, Bosch, Siemens, etc. - high-quality production in all spheres of life - auto, medicine, industrial and construction and household appliances. Adidas, Hugo Boss and other little things.

[strannik1985]

Foreign exchange reserves are not provided in any way, except that the Germans will voluntarily deduct part of their income in favor of paying the state debt.
Therefore, someone can have a national debt of over 50, or even 100% of GDP, and someone 4.

[unaha]

“It’s not backed by foreign exchange reserves” - they don’t need it. The debt is provided with the ability to pay it off. And this opportunity is guaranteed by income from commodity production and export.

[BAI]

But there was a great economy,
That is, he knew how to judge,
How the state is getting richer
And why does he not need gold,
When a simple product has.
(Someone A.S. Pushkin)

[Krasnodar]

Why do they need foreign exchange reserves? They have exports of 1 trillion 370 million a year, slightly less than Russia's GDP with oil and gas, with a much higher purchasing power in general.

[strannik1985]

Why do they need foreign exchange reserves?

There is no need, moreover, even 100% of GDP is not the limit, without considering the United States - Japan, England, Italy, Belgium, Singapore, Luxembourg, Australia, Austria, Norway, Finland, Denmark, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Latvia, Estonia ... Hypothetically, these countries are ready-made bankrupts, in a crisis, as now, they cannot pay off their debts with all the consequences - default, etc. However, this does not happen, everyone should each other and everything is in order. What is the problem to be a successful country in such conditions?

[Krasnodar]

Here we have to make a little division - USA - Japan, England, Italy, Belgium, Singapore, Luxembourg, Australia, Austria, Norway, Finland, Denmark, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Latvia, Iceland - this is one thing. The EU pays debts for Greece, Hungary and Latvia with Estonia - I just don't know.
And the first countries are independent of resource prices - so they can borrow the same amount and not go bankrupt. They produce goods for more money (USA, VK, Japan, Italy) than the Russian Federation produces oil and gas.

[strannik1985]

They produce goods for more money

Hungary, Latvia, Estonia are EU members.
In the United States, the budget has been in deficit since the 60s, it was in surplus in 1999-2000, the rest also have deficit budgets. They spend more than they earn, and since the dollar exchange rate is not tied to anything, this is considered normal. The most striking example is Japan, with a deficit of $ 297 billion. So what? And nothing

[Krasnodar]

So at the end of WWII, the Americans had a national debt of 150% of GDP))
And with Japan, there really is nothing - a large, independent from resource extraction, manufacturer of everything - from mobile phones and televisions to cars and airplanes. And the fact that the EU members do not mean anything - they got such a hodgepodge there ... for complete harmony it is not enough to accept Morocco and Belarus, for example

[strannik1985]

So at the end of WWII

Namely, if "ordinary" countries cannot do this - inflation, of course, special requirements of the IMF, etc., then the United States can, since 1960, the budget deficit is 3 billion annually, in 1967 9 billion, in 1968 (the peak of the Vietnam War ) 25 billion dollars.

And with Japan really

Japan is an island, almost all resources must be brought from abroad
Belarus and Kazakhstan finance the Russian Federation, Morocco, the monarchy of the Persian Gulf directly and through the Islamic Bank.

[Krasnodar]

I agree - only the resources are now cheap, they are sold with joy, but only the Germans and the Britons are competing with all Lexus - therefore they absolutely do not care (until the introduction of a complete economic blockade).

[strannik1985]

I agree - only the resources are cheap now

It's not about the price of resources, but about the money. The science of economics dictates to us that the injection of money into the economy will only accelerate inflation, and this is quite fair in relation to some Zimbabwe, but a selected ten countries does not concern, they just agreed, and a long time ago.

[Krasnodar]

The point is not in the agreement between the ten most developed (economically) countries, but in the volume of their production of competitive and demanded products. Amazon, Intel, Microsoft, Apple, Ford, Boeing, McDonald's and others from Amers, Daimler, BMW, Renault, Airbus, clothing brands, pharmaceuticals and household appliances of Europeans. Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Sony from the Japanese. Samsung, Hyundai, Daewoo and Kiyanki from South Koreans. Money is brought by profitable production, how they throw money into social services is another question.
Russia has no external debt, but apart from raw materials, titanium, aluminum and the military-industrial complex, we have nothing to offer the world. The absence of monetary injection into the social sphere - with minor ones, according to the parity between income and the amount of money of the population - is the correct policy. We earn too little, so there is no confidence in the ability to repay debts. And the standard of living of the bulk of the population is appropriate.

[strannik1985]

It's not about the contract

It is in it, because without the printing press there will be no competitive economy, there simply will not be enough money for everyone. How will the United States cover the budget deficit without the ability to print an additional trillion dollars this year? Not at all, but not a single rating agency / exchange / bank will talk about it.

Russia has no external debt

Features of the market economy, the volume of money supply is tied to the volume of the domestic market. The planned economy and finance do not have such a link.

[Krasnodar]

But what does the printing press have to do with the fact that the above companies produce products that are in demand, including in Russia? The printing press works for the social and defense industries and infrastructure - in part. A planned economy is the same as a conventional one. Only calculations are carried out without added value and planning requires very good, even talented specialists.

[strannik1985]

The printing press works for social and defense

Government orders will be reduced, from direct payment to a bunch of programs on which various subcontractors feed.

A planned economy is the same as a conventional one.

Yes, 01.12.1932/8/217,2 cash in the economy 30 million rubles, budget revenues 623,4 million. A year earlier, 5 in cash and 435,6 million in the budget. Between state-owned enterprises, cash turnover is only for salary and similar needs, the rest is only in the form of numbers on paper.

[Krasnodar]

1) It will not drop production monsters - except for those who work, incl. with the military-industrial complex. Cadillac and BMW will remain in demand without government orders, demand for them from reduced incomes of subcontractors in the country-the manufacturer will shrink, this is definitely. But - not critical.
2) Perhaps - a client told me about the planned economy, who did not work in this direction for a long time under the apparatus of the President of the USSR. He graduated from work together with a short-lived position

[strannik1985]

Production monsters will not be dropped

What does the military-industrial complex and real production in general have to do with it? How is public debt monetized in the US? The Treasury issues government loan bonds, the Fed. Reserve prints dollars and buys these bonds, the Treasury sends the acquired dollars to the budget. In times of crisis, the Fed buys out the assets of municipalities, states, "bad" (mortgage, for example) assets of private banks. The redeemed ones are placed on the Fed's balance sheet and the government then pays off. So The money supply grows in proportion to the number of "goods", only these are quasi - goods - mortgage derivatives, futures, stocks, etc. It is good for ordinary goods and services in this turnover if 1% is collected. In addition to the FRS, bonds are bought by other countries, as well as domestic investors - private and state pension funds, state social assistance funds, insurance companies. A lot of money - bonds are falling in price, low income, funds have nothing to pay for pensions and insurance (the so-called "Quantitative easing", launched in 2008, had to be stopped by 2014, now they are reintroduced), little money - a bubble of quasi - money collapse, GDP will fall to its real values, I will not even write about the social sector, which accounts for up to 50% of the budget, what is happening now is childish talk compared to when without or income will be greatly reduced for ~ 109 million (as of 2012 year) people, including veterans, unemployed people receiving non-state financial benefits, participants in the free medical assistance program - 153 million people.

[Krasnodar]

I know all this. The next question is - why are foreign investors happy to buy American Treasuries?

[strannik1985]

The question is next

Because after the United States in terms of debt comes the EU, the third - Japan, China is interested in foreign investment. They support each other, but while the system works and the rest is profitable.

[Krasnodar]

Australia, Singapore, New Zealand, individuals from all over the world?

[strannik1985]

Singapore is the world settlement center of the Asia-Pacific region, the national debt is 364% of GDP, and also one of the allies of the United States (like Australia and New Zealand) against China. Australia's public debt is 151% of GDP. They support each other and the system holds on.

[Krasnodar]

Ok, individuals?

[strannik1985]

As I wrote, while the wheels are spinning on this, in particular, pension funds (including private), insurance companies, etc.

[Krasnodar]

And numerous individuals who profitably place their savings

[strannik1985]

Well, yes, it is true that the policy of quantitative easing kills the profitability of securities, but not the point, we were talking about the Russian Federation. This method is not suitable for Russia, p ... We must develop for our own people, and for this the Soviet method is suitable.

[Krasnodar]

We must develop for our own - I agree completely, but the Soviet method brought the country to collapse - following the economic collapse.

[strannik1985]

The situation of the population of the Russian Federation 5 years after the collapse of the USSR was much worse, but still there was no collapse.

[Krasnodar]

Quote: strannik1985

The situation of the population of the Russian Federation 5 years after the collapse of the USSR was much worse, but still there was no collapse.

How was it not? Why did Gorby make concessions to the West?

[strannik1985]

Why did Gorby make concessions to the West?

It doesn't matter, he could have any motives, he could be wrong, used in the dark, etc. The fact is that the medicine turned out to be worse than the disease, already in 1992 49,5 million people were below the poverty line in the Russian Federation (RSFSR) alone, despite the reduction in defense spending and other items.

[passerby]

Quote: Krasnodar

A planned economy is the same as a conventional one. Only calculations are made without added value, and planning requires very good, even talented specialists.

You are wrong here. There is a surplus value in a planned economy. Only it is formed not on the basis of the really necessary costs for the production of a unit of production for the minimization of which the manufacturer himself is struggling to increase the competitiveness of his products, but on the basis of the maximum possible amount of costs for which it will be possible to "spin up" the ministry and the committee on prices, because in a planned economy the well-being of the manufacturer does not depend on whether it will be possible to sell the produced product (it will be possible to sell it in any case), but on the fulfillment of planned targets in terms of volume, profitability, and in order to fulfill them there is no need to minimize costs. It is much easier to lift these costs up to the skies, and get a wholesale price that has been lifted up to the skies, covering the costs and ensuring profit, and then, if necessary, engage in "rationalization", gradually reducing costs, thereby increasing profitability and profit growth and getting different kind of buns for the "exemplary organization of production." So, without straining, but only by agreeing with the right people the "correct" amount of production costs and, as a consequence, the "correct" wholesale prices, it was possible to receive awards and awards in the USSR. And most importantly, it is almost impossible to double-check this, because there were simply no other arbitrators in terms of prices and costs, except for those people with whom you had already agreed them, just as there was no competition that could bury this scheme in an instant.

[Krasnodar]

Then everything is much weirder than I thought - thanks for the clarification!

[strannik1985]

Like this, without straining

Tell this tale to those who produced Chinese consumer goods. Has the Chinese industry won with quality? No, just crushed with a mass. Chinese consumer goods were of inferior quality, but there were much more of them and they were cheaper.
There is no concept of equal competition at the level of the country and international trade, the Russian economy cannot be on an equal footing with the American (they have drawn about 900 billion dollars in these six months alone to cover the budget deficit) or the Chinese. Therefore, on the site of a factory in Russia, there are ruins or a shopping center, and money for goods goes to China. You can talk as much as you like about the "horrors" of industrial production in the Soviet Union, but these are children's fairy tales compared to the 90s. No factories - no problem

[passerby]

Quote: strannik1985

Tell this tale to those who produced Chinese consumer goods.

What does Chinese consumer goods have to do with it?

Quote: strannik1985

(they have drawn about 900 billion dollars in these six months alone to cover the budget deficit)

What does the US printing press have to do with it?
I wrote about a fundamental flaw in the Soviet planned command economy. If you do not agree with this, you can essentially write with what you disagree with from what I have written. I have not written a word about China and the United States. If you would like to discuss the United States and China, you can chat with other commentators who discuss the economies of these countries.

[strannik1985]

What does Chinese consumer goods have to do with it?

An example of competition.

Is the US printing press here?

An example of the advantages of a single country in a market economy.

I wrote about a fundamental flaw

This shortcoming is a trifle compared to the lack of money or the volume of the domestic market.

[passerby]

Quote: strannik1985

What does Chinese consumer goods have to do with it?

An example of competition.

Is the US printing press here?

An example of the advantages of a single country in a market economy.

I wrote about a fundamental flaw

This shortcoming is a trifle compared to the lack of money or the volume of the domestic market.

You are just doing some kind of verbiage. I don't understand what you want to prove to me?

[strannik1985]

You are just doing some kind of verbiage.

This is your reasoning on an abstract topic. At the level of a single country or international trade, there is no such thing as free competition, there are a million examples of this.

I don't understand what you want to tell me?

Sadly, I write in Russian letters for the third time - this is a trifle, a speck in comparison with a log

[passerby]

Quote: strannik1985

You are just doing some kind of verbiage.

This is your reasoning on an abstract topic. At the level of a single country or international trade, there is no such thing as free competition, there are a million examples of this.
I don't understand what you want to tell me?

Sadly, I write in Russian letters for the third time - this is a trifle, a speck in comparison with a log

Believe in your health, I don't argue with believers. I don’t just need to broadcast your "revelations". They are not interesting to me.

[strannik1985]

The inability to argue your own point of view is your problem, not mine. This is an open forum for discussion.

[passerby]

Quote: strannik1985

The inability to argue your own point of view is your problem, not mine. This is an open forum for discussion.

So discuss your beliefs with someone else, and I will prove to you that the earth is round and does not intend. I'm not interested in this, sorry.

[strannik1985]

But the inability to explain your point of view in relation to the facts is a matter of faith.
Did someone make you write here? So why are you crying?

[passerby]

So believe yourself in health.

[IS-80_RVGK2]

Quote: Krasnodar

I agree - that's why I'm a supporter of capitalism with a good social system - a la FRG

It doesn't work that way either. That is why everything is now heading towards another big war.

[IS-80_RVGK2]

Quote: Krasnodar

So the economic growth of the USSR was due to the world crisis - equipment and technologies were bought for a cap of crackers

It certainly helped. But this is not the main reason.

Quote: Krasnodar

For development at a Stalinist pace, it is necessary to imprison for theft, and everyone - from a worker to the head of state corporations. It is necessary to jail for being late for work, etc. People will howl, first of all from this pace

It doesn't quite work that way. Therefore, it will not work at all.

[passerby]

Don't live in a fairy tale world. Back in 1987, Grigory Khanin and his colleagues convincingly proved that Soviet statistics on economic growth were overstated 13 times, and in the 11th five-year period, growth gave way to a collapse of the economy. The economic growth of the USSR turned out to be a soap bubble consisting of postscripts and overstatement of the value of goods produced.

[Pravodel]

Of course, of course ... All the achievements of the USSR are a fairy tale created by Stalin and his henchmen to mislead the people ... Of course, the victory of our people in the war is also a fairy tale that we invented for ourselves and in which we invariably believe, in fact, we lost the war, the restoration of the national economy of the USSR after the war is in general a pre-indispensable fairy tale.
Don't make people laugh, a casual wanderer, he has been making fun of you, liberals, for so long, taunts and spits on you. Liberal lies about the decay and collapse of the USSR due to the growth rate of minus 100, 200%, about the power humiliating and destroying its own people - this is Goebel's propaganda, fully accepted and supported by you - the liberals .. You could, in support of your thesis about "insignificance "The USSR would bring the opinion of an author more respected by the liberals and the Anglo-Saxons, for example, Solzhenitsyn, or traitors who fled over the hill and throw mud at Russia, and would not powder their brains with the calculations of a supernumerary economist who calculated and rewrote everything ...
You, the liberals, will not defeat us and our people, you will perish like all others like you in the dustbin of history ...

[passerby]

Quote: The Truth

Of course, of course ... All the achievements of the USSR are a fairy tale created by Stalin and his henchmen to mislead the people ... Of course, the victory of our people in the war is also a fairy tale that we invented for ourselves and in which we invariably believe, in fact, we lost the war, the restoration of the national economy of the USSR after the war is in general a pre-indispensable fairy tale.
Don't make people laugh, a casual wanderer, he has been making fun of you, liberals, for so long, taunts and spits on you. Liberal lies about the decay and collapse of the USSR due to the growth rate of minus 100, 200%, about the power humiliating and destroying its own people - this is Goebel's propaganda, fully accepted and supported by you - the liberals .. You could, in support of your thesis about "insignificance "The USSR would bring the opinion of an author more respected by the liberals and the Anglo-Saxons, for example, Solzhenitsyn, or traitors who fled over the hill and throw mud at Russia, and would not powder their brains with the calculations of a supernumerary economist who calculated and rewrote everything ...
You, the liberals, will not defeat us and our people, you will perish like all others like you in the dustbin of history ...

Then answer a number of simple questions, if there was a fairy tale in the USSR, why the citizens of the USSR were not allowed into the cap. countries and why people sought to leave the USSR, and not come to live in this fairy tale. Why did the citizens of the USSR seek to buy German shoes, Romanian furniture, Japanese electronics, etc. according to the list, and not Soviet goods, if our enterprises were working normally? Why was there a permanent deficit of everything in the USSR?

[Pravodel]

Indeed, these are extremely simple questions, and if you think about them, then they are still the same liberal ... a stinky smell is heard: the USSR starved its people with hunger, cold, gave nothing to the people, etc.
Everything is much simpler, during the period of its existence the USSR had to constantly fight for its existence with your friends - our enemies: the Anglo-Saxons and the bourgeois ... Let me remind you that sanctions are not today's invention. The USSR was constantly under sanctions, and that there were even sanctions when the bourgeois refused to accept gold as payment for goods, and only demanded payment in bread.
Therefore, in the USSR, the part of the national economy was oversized, ensuring the country's defense capability, to the detriment of the part producing consumer goods. But, I will emphasize again, this is a forced measure of economic development in conditions of constant threat from the west and east.
Moreover, this disproportion increased even more when Khrushchev liquidated his personal subsidiary plots and private traders supplying products to the market. If we add here the development of virgin lands, which finally ruined the village, then the answer generally becomes obvious, as I pointed out to you above, even to a schoolboy who studies the correct history of the USSR, and not written by liberals ...
I stay on this. I have nothing more to discuss with you. I do not conduct conversations with the trolls who rot Russia and its history. The people have already said everything about you.

[passerby]

Such simple questions, and instead of answering them, look for an excuse for the USSR's inability to provide people with basic things in the "intrigues of enemies", now there are also sanctions, but there are no problems with toilet paper, sausage, sheepskin coats, shoes, and there is no shortage. You have no answers to these questions and the USSR was not a fabulous paradise. Paradise is not locked so that the inhabitants do not scatter from it, and the USSR was locked so that citizens do not scatter from it. In general, you have nothing but slogans.

[Krasnodar]

And what did you expect from this denouncer of the bourgeoisie and liberals? They all dream of the CCP's laurels - to become dollar billionaires with a membership (you can't put it better) membership card ... some kind of, without paying pensions for 1/3 of the elderly and paying 40% of pennies. All under beautiful slogans.

[Pravodel]

I do not conduct conversations with trolls, rotting Russia and its history, with fakes, liberals ... stas, traitors, Vlasovites, Banderlogists and other vermin. The people have already said everything about you.

There is nothing more to add....

[voyaka uh]

"The Chinese did not give up the market, in fact they built state capitalism" ///
----
State capitalism was in the USSR.
In China, there is a mixture of state and private capitalism. And the share of private
has already exceeded 50% and continues to grow. The PDA is gradually becoming simple
to the "ruling party".
China follows the path of Japan and South Korea.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: The same LYOKHA

For some reason, the Chinese succeeded ... though they saw from our experience how not to do perestroika.

The Chinese began reforms earlier than in the USSR. Deng Xiaoping's reforms, in contrast to the Soviet reforms, when directives came down from the top and were the initiative of the higher authorities, Xiaoping himself almost did not invent anything and was careful, and he simply allowed regional leaders to make any investments in any production at their discretion, and also widely experiment with economic innovations. Then, if the experiment or reform turned out to be successful, they were implemented on a wider scale and, finally, on a national scale. I remember there was a TV program with a Chinese economist, where he described all this and compared it with our "pelestroyka". Our opponent, of course, poured slops on him, and he grinned and said, we'll see in 20 years.

[BAI]

The USSR started from scratch in a completely hostile environment. No experience, all by trial and error. China started with the help of the USSR and taking into account the experience of the USSR. Completely different starting conditions.

[andrew42]

What did the Chinese do there? Are you serious7 The Chinese have abandoned the socialist model of society. Retaining red banners and party chatter, China reverted to its old model of Imperial China, only as CCP officials instead of medieval mandarins. So it's not over yet, and what China will end up with is still unknown, 30 years is not a period. China needed a socialist course to operate a mobilization model during the period of restoration and strengthening of its own national Han state. In modern China, there is no trace of socialism, I lived and worked there for 3 years.

[IS-80_RVGK2]

Quote: andrew42

In modern China, there is no trace of socialism, I lived and worked there for 3 years.

China is slipping slowly into National Socialism. As a matter of fact, the rest of the world and ourselves. While preserving some vestiges of socialism. History teaches that history teaches nothing.

[carstorm 11]

The Chinese succeeded because back in 78 they began to build a socialist but market economy. step by step. we would not have been able to do this in view of one very important reason - for two or two people would agree to endure 20 years while everything gradually changes. we are not Chinese. here 99 percent of people still think that the change of the president and we will live) right the next day. and if this does not happen, then the new president will begin to spread rot in a few years. the Chinese first started from the village. liquidation of communes. this alone took 7 years. then 7 years later, the transition to a planned commodity economy and the urban environment in general. introduced market pricing, etc. then 7 years under the slogan of the socialist market economy there was a change in the economy as such. These 21 years China lived, to put it mildly, not very well, but then everything went as it should at stage 4. Is anyone here ready to endure 21 years for a brighter future? yeah. shchaz. and there people supported the leadership. they have such a mentality. that's what happened. that's all, if you explain it simply)

[qQQQ]

Quote: bystander

The fact that the economic system built in the USSR turned out to be ineffective, inoperable and did not provide the rates of economic growth allowing to fight on equal terms with the West, was obvious both in the 80s and now.

That's not a fact at all, if you look closely, until the 70s we went exactly with the West, sometimes losing, somewhere on the contrary, ahead of it, and this despite the colossal costs of restoring the country after the Second World War. They began to lag behind when the United States untied the dollar from gold and started printing it uncontrollably. In fact, we were beaten by the sharper, but why they could not oppose anything to this is a separate question.

[passerby]

Quote: qqqq

Quote: bystander

The fact that the economic system built in the USSR turned out to be ineffective, inoperable and did not provide the rates of economic growth allowing to fight on equal terms with the West, was obvious both in the 80s and now.

That's not a fact at all, if you look closely, until the 70s we went exactly with the West, sometimes losing, somewhere on the contrary, ahead of it, and this despite the colossal costs of restoring the country after the Second World War. They began to lag behind when the United States untied the dollar from gold and started printing it uncontrollably. In fact, we were beaten by the sharper, but why they could not oppose anything to this is a separate question.

Let me disagree with you. The point is still in the bad system, which offered only fear as an incentive to work, as soon as the fear disappeared, serious problems began. In general, fear in itself is not a very good incentive to work, and sooner or later the one who inspires this fear is destroyed, which, in fact, happened to Stalin, who died in a pool of his urine when no one wanted to help him. The problem of the Soviet system was that it could not give an answer to one simple question, in general it sounds like this - how much is the work of one academician? It is equal to the cost of labor of 1 worker, 1 workers, or maybe 10 workers, or vice versa, the labor of 100 academicians should be paid as the labor of one worker? Here, instead of the cost of labor, the value of any commodity can appear. So the economic thought in the USSR did not find an answer to this question. As a result, as G. Khanin established in Soviet times, the rates of economic growth in the USSR were overstated 100 times due to the overestimated value of goods. As an example, he cited the following fact. In the USSR, a lathe was produced at a cost of 13 rubles. The plant mastered a new CNC machine and set a price of 5000 rubles for it, justifying it with its own costs for the production of new equipment, but the productivity of this machine was only 40000 times higher than that of the old machine. And this applied to everything, including the capital investment. He compared the capital expenditures with the commissioning of new capacities in industry and found that, despite the growth of capital investments by a factor of ten, the capacities of production facilities commissioned in the USSR in a number of industries did not even compensate for the retirement of old capacities. Although the picture was formally beautiful - growth was shown everywhere in rubles. Increase in capital expenditures, growth in the cost of fixed assets. This is a flaw of the system, which they have not figured out how to solve.

[andrew42]

What does the "flaw of the system" have to do with it? And what kind of system - economic, political, ideological, all together? You might think that in the capital system, managers do not inflate, and do not create fictitious assets, do not burst soap bubbles.

[passerby]

The flaw of the system is that in a market economy no one would buy a machine from you for a price 8 times more expensive than the previous one, but only 1,5 times more productive than the previous machine. When there is no objective mechanism for determining the price of labor, the price of goods and the price of services, then such "miracles" occur, in which the growth of capital investments by 10 times is accompanied by a decrease in the capacity of fixed assets. In the capitalist economy there is a consensus between managers and buyers in which some agree to sell an asset at a certain price, while others agree to buy it at this price.In the Soviet system, there was no such mechanism, as a result of which the economic system became extremely ineffective, and the indicators of the economy reflected a false picture her condition.

[qQQQ]

Quote: bystander

The point is still in the bad system, which offered only fear as an incentive to work, as soon as the fear disappeared, serious problems began.

How is fear different from responsibility? Maybe all the same, the basis was the demand for not done business? In any case, if we take the Stalinist model as a basis, the incentive was material encouragement.

[passerby]

Quote: qqqq

Quote: bystander

The point is still in the bad system, which offered only fear as an incentive to work, as soon as the fear disappeared, serious problems began.

How is fear different from responsibility? Maybe all the same, the basis was the demand for not done business? In any case, if we take the Stalinist model as a basis, the incentive was material encouragement.

The demand for a job not done can be different, it can be a dismissal, or it can be a prison, you must agree these are different things. So in the USSR under Stalin, the result of demand was exactly a prison, not a dismissal. Moreover, I have already cited a link to the decree of 26.06.1940/XNUMX/XNUMX, which prohibited dismissal without the permission of the boss, and the existence of this decree just refutes your thesis that in the Stalinist model the incentive was material incentives. Otherwise, people would not have had to be forcibly kept at work, and they would not have a desire to quit, moreover, such a desire that they even deliberately admitted truancy so that they would be fired under the article for absenteeism, as a result of which even a special norm was introduced providing that the punishment for absenteeism should not be dismissal, but forced labor at the enterprise where this person worked, and in case of repeated absenteeism, he was subject to criminal liability. It was simply the most natural slavery.

[Foul skeptic]

You are prolific for pearls. There are so many of them in each message that you can write a sheet for each.
Especially insistent - "but read Khanin" is especially amusing. I can send you to Khanin too. Only a sample of the late 90s. When he shouted - return everything to the ass, otherwise Russia will be bent. Regarding his "newspaper and magazine" publication, it seems 86 years old, the example of a machine tool, masterpiece in terms of competence, demonstrates the principle that Shpakovsky likes to refer to about "20 and 80".
1) I cannot ask Monsieur Khanin in which "parrots" he measured the "productivity" of the machines. Can you answer me? I will even help you, add specifics. We are talking about machines 16k20 and 16k20fzs.
2)

justifying it with their own costs for the production of new equipment, but the productivity of this machine was only 1,5 times higher than that of the old machine.

Are you and Monsieur Hanina surprised at this pricing? This speaks of Monsieur Hanin, as a manipulator, and of you, as a "typical modern forum" expert in all matters. " I explain on fingers and primitively. A PVC boat with a carrying capacity of 300 kg should, according to Khanin, cost the same as an aluminum boat with a locker, windproof glass and an echo sounder in addition, only because it also has a carrying capacity of 300 kg, which means that the first, that the second from point A to point B per trip deliver the same number of people and cargo. You can take any heading and transpose a similar approach. And delirium will go everywhere. Show me where in the world the pricing is structured the way Khanin suggests, rather than summing production costs with a rate of return?
In his article, his surprise at natural, logical things causes bewilderment. Like:

Machine-building production in 1956-1975 in value terms increased by 9.36 times. But if we take the output in pieces or in other natural measures, then the growth averaged 4,24 times.

Where, by the way, the thirteen-fold ratio came from, I still did not understand, in his article I do not remember such numbers. But these are the little things of manipulation. Let's go back to the passage. Tell me why should it be different? If this is the law. Didn't you know? So why did you decide you could teach something to others?
PS

The point is still in the bad system that offered only fear as an incentive to work

I could not pass by. Fear as a stimulus is a feature of a system in which there is such a phenomenon as unemployment. Without unemployment, there is no fear of losing your job. Is this conclusion applicable to the USSR? Well, let everyone decide for himself.
PP, S
The verdict on the Soviet economic model was passed in the West. Only not publicists for the masses, albeit with academic degrees. And Sovietologists who worked, for example, for the British Foreign Office or the US CIA. And works that were not in print until the end of the Cold War or that came to us through intelligence channels, and then were published with the stamp "On a special list."

[passerby]

We have already discussed with you, dear, and you have neatly merged and never answered the question about economic modeling and natural experiments in economics. Given the above, I do not intend to enter into a discussion with you, nor do I intend to read your posts.

[Foul skeptic]

Should I be upset? ))
Oh, were you in that wonderful conversation?

You can send answers on the NEP and Japan, with which the conversation began, but was diverted to a different direction in order to avoid these answers.

This is the finale of that correspondence on my part. You did not see a new message from me only because you continued the "no-reply policy" with a subsequent message. Was there any point in continuing that conversation if you did not answer any of the questions posed to you? Instead, for some reason they began to demand from me the provision of non-existent things that are not related to the subject of the conversation.
PS By the way, the "research" from the last conversation, surprisingly, has to do with the current comment. In this topic, I mentioned the presence of a certain group of people who did not tell fables for ordinary people, but for serious uncles who, on the basis of this, built a policy towards our country. One of them, Alec Nove, it seems in 1959 (I can be wrong for a couple of years) on a Rockefeller Foundation subsidy for the National Planning Association of the United States made a report on the possibilities of the USSR economy and on ways to discredit it (because the biggest threat for the United States is, I quote from memory - "the psychological impact of Soviet achievements on the public opinion of underdeveloped countries.", an example of a country that emerged from the influence of the West). Can you guess from three times what was one of Monsieur Nouve's advice? Introduce the example of Japan into propaganda. And what do we see after the "recommendation"? University of Cambridge (to which Nouve is related, well, coincidentally, as they say) gave birth to "research". For the consuming masses. It was about him in my last conversation that I wanted to talk to you, for which purpose I pointed out the distortions encountered in it and asked you to explain them. But since the literature for the masses does not encounter such manifestations of curiosity and does not involve questions from readers, a problem arose with the answers.

[Bar1]

Quote: bystander

The fact that the economic system built in the USSR turned out to be ineffective, inoperable and did not provide the rates of economic growth allowing to fight on equal terms with the West, it was obvious both in the 80s and now

this false understanding of the era of the USSR It was certainly not at all true.
Firstly, Lenin's economy was one, Stalin's economy was different, Khrushchev's was third, Brezhnev's was fourth. And to say that the economy of socialism is worse and more ineffective than that of capitalism is to mislead people.
The most effective productive relations were under Stalin, when the economy of the WINNERS was rebuilt, when one state was able to utterly defeat the entire hostile Europe with its huge economy.
Under Stalin, the nuclear industry was laid, which the rich and prosperous countries of Europe did not have, the chemical industry, which was not in the Republic of Ingushetia in principle, the massive housing construction under Stalin / Khrushchev. The space industry was founded under Stalin and continued by Khrushchev for a long time divorced from the universal and still since then we are ahead in some areas of space production.
The USSR produced up to a THIRD world production of aircraft and helicopters.
It built its own defense industry, which provided the army with EVERYTHING it needed, but now what? All electronics are not ours, when a button is pressed, all computers stand up and the army becomes uncontrollable and dead, and at the same time these authorities stubbornly do not develop their electronics, and at first they ruined the electronics industry, and now they do not want to revive it.
And under the USSR? Their factories were immediately built, which provided the army with everything necessary. Unfortunately, they did not provide everything the people needed, but this is for other reasons.

Quote: bystander

Without the market and free pricing, all attempts to reform the economy were meaningless, and the market and free pricing are incompatible with the command-administrative system, which normatively sets plans and prices for everything.

But this is delusion. The market is opposed to the planned economy. The market is the element, and the plan is the calculation.
Hundreds of varieties of sausages in our stores do not provide the QUALITY of sausages. The sausage is made from any fillers and chemicals and the quantity, i.e. Your notorious market cannot achieve satisfactory taste of the product. This requires control over the product by planned actions, and not the elements of the market.
Therefore, the hope that spontaneous multidirectional actions will lead to the right direction is an old and harmful delusion introduced into the minds.

[passerby]

Why are these slogans? You have no numbers or specifics other than emotions. There are serious scientific studies that have proven that Soviet statistics were unreliable and exaggerated. Read G. Khanin at least.

Quote: Bar1

Quote: bystander

The fact that the economic system built in the USSR turned out to be ineffective, inoperable and did not provide the rates of economic growth allowing to fight on equal terms with the West, it was obvious both in the 80s and now

this false understanding of the era of the USSR It was certainly not at all true.
Firstly, Lenin's economy was one, Stalin's economy was different, Khrushchev's was third, Brezhnev's was fourth. And to say that the economy of socialism is worse and more ineffective than that of capitalism is to mislead people.
The most effective productive relations were under Stalin, when the economy of the WINNERS was rebuilt, when one state was able to utterly defeat the entire hostile Europe with its huge economy.
Under Stalin, the nuclear industry was laid, which the rich and prosperous countries of Europe did not have, the chemical industry, which was not in the Republic of Ingushetia in principle, the massive housing construction under Stalin / Khrushchev. The space industry was founded under Stalin and continued by Khrushchev for a long time divorced from the universal and still since then we are ahead in some areas of space production.
The USSR produced up to a THIRD world production of aircraft and helicopters.
It built its own defense industry, which provided the army with EVERYTHING it needed, but now what? All electronics are not ours, when a button is pressed, all computers stand up and the army becomes uncontrollable and dead, and at the same time these authorities stubbornly do not develop their electronics, and at first they ruined the electronics industry, and now they do not want to revive it.
And under the USSR? Their factories were immediately built, which provided the army with everything necessary. Unfortunately, they did not provide everything the people needed, but this is for other reasons.

Quote: bystander

Without the market and free pricing, all attempts to reform the economy were meaningless, and the market and free pricing are incompatible with the command-administrative system, which normatively sets plans and prices for everything.

But this is delusion. The market is opposed to the planned economy. The market is the element, and the plan is the calculation.
Hundreds of varieties of sausages in our stores do not provide the QUALITY of sausages. The sausage is made from any fillers and chemicals and the quantity, i.e. Your notorious market cannot achieve satisfactory taste of the product. This requires control over the product by planned actions, and not the elements of the market.
Therefore, the hope that spontaneous multidirectional actions will lead to the right direction is an old and harmful delusion introduced into the minds.

[andrew42]

And what is the use of juggling "numbers and specifics"? Well, "read", and fed the numbers to someone? Have children been attached to kindergarten? Did you teach them at school? Sent to a free health camp? Did you make a hard worker a salary of at least 3 "living wages"? Did you make housing and communal services in 1/10 of the salary? The birth rate has been raised, are the "numbers" yours? Nothing is interesting to anyone except noodles. A quality result is important.

[passerby]

If you don't need numbers, then here's the result. The result of the work of the Soma of the advanced Soviet economic model was the closure of the borders so that the citizens of the USSR would not scatter to the capital of the country. This is a concrete result for you without numbers.

[Bar1]

Quote: passerby

If you don't need numbers, then here's the result. The result of the work of the Soma of the advanced Soviet economic model was the closure of the borders so that the citizens of the USSR would not scatter to the capital of the country. This is a concrete result for you without numbers.

Well, this is a lie. There is no dependence between these facts.
The USSR was a closed state due to the fact that it was surrounded by enemy capitalist countries, which did their best to harm, therefore the most effective means of protecting your people from enemy ideology was to fence off from enemies with a reliable border.
But at the time of Khrushchev / Brezhnev, when distortions began in the economy and a deficit developed, the lack of jeans and other goods desired by the people in stores became an ideological weapon against the Soviet regime. it was the political leadership of the USSR that stood in the way of the development of socialism. The USSR could produce good clothes and plenty of food for the population, but the Trotskyist-opportunist elite did not allow the country to live normally.

[andrew42]

There was a certain overkill with the closure of the borders. But in general there is a reasonable justification for this. First, we are talking about the carriers of secrets and holders of permits. Did you want to work as such, to work tasty and interesting? - Then there is no need to whine that you are "not allowed". Secondly, a specialist raised and trained at public expense, and from an early age, from a kindergarten, we count, from a children's clinic and up to graduate school - why the hell did he want to do that and jumped onto someone else's steam locomotive? - let's count the money, gentlemen, free market apologists. But what about the workers, collective farmers, doctors, teachers who hunchbacked to grow the "umgnyk" -? - So pay "tribute for 12 years" and go, if there are no restrictions on secrecy. But no, "smart guys" they are such lovers of freebies, to fuck here - to rip there. and for such a scam at the household level, the chip is cleaned, not to mention the state one. This means that your runners with their "Wishlist" are usually from the intellectual elite. So in the notorious "border closure" of the pseudo-communist foolishness (as if the image is not eroded) 25 percent. The rest is quite justified economically and socially. The capitalist system is the enemy of socialist society, and it does not hide it and trumpets at every step: , red ... Well, why the devil should I help the defectors to the enemy, who steal away the intellectual and "prosperous" capital accumulated here? I had to do this, 50 thousand bucks per barrel, and a kick in the ass without the right to return to the Union. But what kind of freebie seeker would lay out the compensation? - Well, if only an Orthodox Jew, eager for permanent residence, and then the toad strangles.

[Mikhail Ya2]

So if the borders were open, in the USSR, specialists grown up in the West would rush. But for some reason this did not happen, and even you cannot imagine such a thing ... a lot of bad

[passerby]

Quote: Bar1

Quote: bystander

The fact that the economic system built in the USSR turned out to be ineffective, inoperable and did not provide the rates of economic growth allowing to fight on equal terms with the West, it was obvious both in the 80s and now

this false understanding of the era of the USSR It was certainly not at all true.
Firstly, Lenin's economy was one, Stalin's economy was different, Khrushchev's was third, Brezhnev's was fourth. And to say that the economy of socialism is worse and more ineffective than that of capitalism is to mislead people.
The most effective productive relations were under Stalin, when the economy of the WINNERS was rebuilt, when one state was able to utterly defeat the entire hostile Europe with its huge economy.
Under Stalin, the nuclear industry was laid, which the rich and prosperous countries of Europe did not have, the chemical industry, which was not in the Republic of Ingushetia in principle, the massive housing construction under Stalin / Khrushchev. The space industry was founded under Stalin and continued by Khrushchev for a long time divorced from the universal and still since then we are ahead in some areas of space production.
The USSR produced up to a THIRD world production of aircraft and helicopters.
It built its own defense industry, which provided the army with EVERYTHING it needed, but now what? All electronics are not ours, when a button is pressed, all computers stand up and the army becomes uncontrollable and dead, and at the same time these authorities stubbornly do not develop their electronics, and at first they ruined the electronics industry, and now they do not want to revive it.
And under the USSR? Their factories were immediately built, which provided the army with everything necessary. Unfortunately, they did not provide everything the people needed, but this is for other reasons.

Quote: bystander

Without the market and free pricing, all attempts to reform the economy were meaningless, and the market and free pricing are incompatible with the command-administrative system, which normatively sets plans and prices for everything.

But this is delusion. The market is opposed to the planned economy. The market is the element, and the plan is the calculation.
Hundreds of varieties of sausages in our stores do not provide the QUALITY of sausages. The sausage is made from any fillers and chemicals and the quantity, i.e. Your notorious market cannot achieve satisfactory taste of the product. This requires control over the product by planned actions, and not the elements of the market.
Therefore, the hope that spontaneous multidirectional actions will lead to the right direction is an old and harmful delusion introduced into the minds.

Read Paul Goregory, he has a very good study of the "planned" economy of the USSR, based on archival documents, where he clearly shows that only an insignificant number of indicators were planned and even Alans were approved for these indicators in the middle of the year for which the plan was drawn up. This is the question of "scientific planning". And as for why it happened, and it happened not because the Soviet planners were idiots, but for the reason that these indicators could not be planned for a huge number of reasons, in the end, the plan was simply adjusted to the fact.

[Bar1]

Quote: bystander

Read Paul Goregory, at

into the furnace of your Kautsky ...

Quote: bystander

and even the Alans on these indicators were approved in the middle of the year for which the plan was drawn up.

what kind of Alans?
Gosplan was the flesh of the flesh of the state in which he found himself and was engaged in what was required of him from above. I remember in those days there was an article about Gosplan in which they ridiculed the calculation of the number of toilet bowls for 2000, but this was already a PLANNED bias, but in general for that. to open a new enterprise and ensure sales, an accurate calculation is always required to every little detail, then the plant will work, therefore the plan is first of all, and the market is always secondary.

[passerby]

It was a typo, it was about plans. As for the "secondary" nature of the market, they thought in the same way in the USSR, as a result, they produced what was unnecessary to anyone. As a result, the USSR was gone.

[andrew42]

Bystander, I will probably reveal a big secret with my next statement. If you knew how much money is spent in modern "capitalist" companies and corporations ... because of marketing mistakes (bought / produced - not sold), because of the simplest mistakes of lazy and well-fed managers who did not allocate penny funds in time and flew into multimillion-dollar inventories (inventiories), lying dead weight and consuming money from the current turnover, and many more "permanent systemic" flaws. Then they would not extol the "undeniable advantages" of capitalism.

[Foul skeptic]

into the furnace of your Kautsky ...

Comrade loves to put pressure on "the authority of well-known authors", not particularly bothering with the content. Either he slips the "graduate student" Aglitsky, now Khanin or Gregory. He asked simple questions about Khanin - he was offended, did not want to talk. It is more comfortable. Everything sends you to Gregory. Perhaps the phrase "perfect storm" is pleasant to the youthful soul. Only with Gregory, everything is a little more interesting than a passer-by wants to imagine. In this notorious "storm", he identifies two components that led to the collapse:
1) negative economic conditions in the country and in the world as a whole
2) a leader who wants to change the system.
It seems that everything is fair and correct, when he later says that two factors are needed for the collapse at once, one will not work. But here he is not being cunning, because in addition to such conclusions, Gregory also has

she committed systemic suicide rather than dying as a result of pressure from public opinion or poor economic performance.

So, of the two "mandatory" items he indicated, only item 2 remains.
Until the 90s, all experts unanimously argued that the economic system of the USSR was efficient, all pointed to its weak points, but no one considered them fatal (only incapable of surpassing the Western model in a number of provisions). It was after the 90s that everyone became "prophets and seers." Because there was no longer a state that could answer the "prophecies". I don't know if you remember it or not, but I remember the periodical publication in the USSR of books and brochures, where they analyzed materials from the Western press about the spheres of life in the USSR (such is counter-propaganda), indicating manipulations and weaknesses. With the collapse of the country, there was no one to expose this, the trend is not the same.
But this is a lyrical digression. Let's go back to Gregory. The words of this citizen cited in the quotation were in his answer to the journalist, where he expressed his opinion that the West did not have a hand in the events in the USSR. True, by the end of the interview, he apparently forgot what he said earlier. Once he gave such an example in the question of the personality of Chubais:

American advisers also shared the opinion that if the privatization was not carried out quickly, the communists would come to power again in the next elections.

I think the comments are superfluous.
PS
Well, I also want to end with Gregory's words about why the planning system is harmful:

this is my personal ideology.

[andrew42]

Yeah, tell the board of directors of some more or less large company about the uselessness of planning. Say, Financial plan, Production plan, Supply plan - are not needed! Let's see with what a bang such a "manager" will be kicked out into the street. There is nothing to tell about fairy tales about the "original sin of planning".

[ANB]

... The fact that the economic system built in the USSR turned out to be ineffective, inoperable and did not provide rates of economic growth that would allow fighting the West on an equal footing was evident in the 80s and now.

Or maybe the other way around? And that is precisely why Gorbachev, the law on cooperation, the rejection of socialism and the collapse of the USSR?
Just because the West got scared and has already taken drastic measures?
Something I did not observe a sharp economic growth in the 90s. But everything was done according to the instructions of the IMF and American advisers.

[passerby]

Quote: ANB

... The fact that the economic system built in the USSR turned out to be ineffective, inoperable and did not provide rates of economic growth that would allow fighting the West on an equal footing was evident in the 80s and now.

Or maybe the other way around? And that is precisely why Gorbachev, the law on cooperation, the rejection of socialism and the collapse of the USSR?
Just because the West got scared and has already taken drastic measures?
Something I did not observe a sharp economic growth in the 90s. But everything was done according to the instructions of the IMF and American advisers.

Everything was done according to the Abalkin-Ryzhkov program, which under no circumstances could give the desired result, because those who wrote it did not understand how the economy works. Western economists also spoke about this later. On YouTube there is a Recording of a lecture by Paul Gregory, a well-known economist and researcher of the Soviet economy, he was the Chairman of the Commission of the US Congress, which was created to investigate the causes of the collapse of the USSR and why the CIA did not predict this, because the collapse of the USSR came as a surprise to the United States. So, in his opinion, with which I completely agree, the reason for the collapse of the USSR was the "perfect storm", when a lot of factors coincided. At the same time, he just notes that the attempts of economic reform by Abalkin-Ryzhkov were doomed because what they were doing just could not work, which actually happened in the end. Therefore, do not look for conspiratorial reasons for the collapse of the USSR, everything is trite, an ineffective economic model, a lack of competent specialists capable of reforming it, citizens' dissatisfaction with failures in the economy, falling prices for Soviet export goods, a weak general secretary who provoked a struggle for power in the party elites and failed to to win this struggle and, as a result of all this, the collapse of a great country. "The perfect storm" as Paul Gregory called it, if at least one of these components would have been different the USSR could have survived and it was this reason that was reflected in his report to the US Congress.

[ANB]

... At the same time, he just notes that the attempts of economic reform by Abalkin-Ryzhkov were doomed because what they were doing just could not work, which actually happened in the end.

I don’t believe that the leadership of the USSR had such stupid people that they didn’t see or understand this.

[passerby]

Quote: ANB

I don’t believe that the leadership of the USSR had such stupid people that they didn’t see or understand this.

Unfortunately, it was so. To understand this, it is enough to read the epic law on state enterprises. which was adopted as part of the Abalkin-Ryzhkov reform.

[IS-80_RVGK2]

Quote: bystander

So, in his opinion, with which I completely agree, the cause of the collapse of the USSR was the "perfect storm"

And also the reptilians from Nibiru. What would not occur to the adherents of the market economy, whose flight of thought is in no way limited by vile historical materialism.

[Comrade]

As you look at today's realities, you just want to shout: "GLORY to the Communist Party!"
We lived in paradise, but did not understand this, they wanted the best. And now they realized that they had lost, and the train had already left.
Annoyed by special distributors with rations for responsible comrades? Got oligarchs on yachts.

[kalibr]

Quote: Comrade

Annoyed by special distributors with rations for responsible comrades

But it was the same ?! This is how it began! And then - the logical result!

[tihonmarine]

Quote: kalibr

But it was the same ?! This is how it began! And then - the logical result!

For this, everything was done so that the people would begin to grumble against the authorities, and especially against the CPSU. Have achieved, destroyed. It hurts, but a fact that we have only now comprehended.

[Same lech]

We lived in paradise, but did not understand this, they wanted the best.

An interesting paradise turns out ... on a personal level, most of the citizens of the USSR were below the blacks in the United States in terms of living standards ...
Yes, there were social benefits, but the state was limited to only this ... that's why people saw a break in patterns.

[Comrade]

Regarding the fact that we allegedly lived worse than American blacks, this topic deserves a separate and detailed discussion, but for now I ask you to take my word for it, this is a myth.
I assure you with good reason as a person looking at a painting with his own eyes.
There are, of course, Negroes who, according to a quota, got a job in bread jobs, but there were enough people in the Union who earned 500 rubles in factories.
Well, let's say Negroes cannot afford to send their children to camp, since a two-week stay there costs almost two thousand dollars.
And I rested in a pioneer camp for ten rubles, and not 14 days, but forty-five days.
And I can cite dozens of such examples. In the Soviet Union, we lived in the autumn quite well by modern Western standards.
Post-Soviet youth do not even know about it.
Yes, there were no cool jeans in the store, but an institute graduate left the walls of an educational institution without a debt, amounting to hundreds of thousands of dollars,
Have you heard of textbooks for five thousand dollars? And I did not hear until my daughter told me about such miracles in American universities.
In our universities, textbooks were free, they gave a hostel and a scholarship, and in Shtatpkh, either borrow from the bank for study, or ask your parents, or take them out on the street.

[Same lech]

In the Soviet Union, we lived in the autumn quite well by modern Western standards.
Post-Soviet youth do not even know about it.

He himself grew up in the USSR ... I went through all the stages from October to the Komsomol and I know very well what advantages the USSR had ... the trouble is that the country's enormous resources were ineptly wasted on secondary goals and not on raising the living standards of the country's citizens ...
Our ordinary citizen must live, then and now, richer than any citizen of the most advanced state ... and the state must make every effort to this.
Only then will we have the moral right to teach and advise anyone.

[Tugarin]

Quote: The same LYOKHA

the trouble is that the country's enormous resources were wasted on secondary goals and not on raising the living standards of the country's citizens.

That's right, they said. Instead of developing their own industry and infrastructure, they kept half the world of savages in exchange for promises.

[kalibr]

Quote: The same LYOKHA

Our ordinary citizen must live, then and now, richer than any citizen of the most advanced state ... and the state must make every effort to this.
Only then will we have the moral right to teach and advise anyone.

Words are not a boy, but a husband!

[unaha]

"Our ordinary citizen must live both then and now richer than any citizen of the most advanced state ... and the state must make every effort to this." - impossible, since it enters into an irreparable contradiction with ideological postulates.

[Krasnodar]

Quote: Comrade

Regarding the fact that we allegedly lived worse than American blacks, this topic deserves a separate and detailed discussion, but for now I ask you to take my word for it, this is a myth.
I assure you with good reason as a person looking at a painting with his own eyes.
There are, of course, Negroes who, according to a quota, got a job in bread jobs, but there were enough people in the Union who earned 500 rubles in factories.
Well, let's say Negroes cannot afford to send their children to camp, since a two-week stay there costs almost two thousand dollars.
And I rested in a pioneer camp for ten rubles, and not 14 days, but forty-five days.
And I can cite dozens of such examples. In the Soviet Union, we lived in the autumn quite well by modern Western standards.
Post-Soviet youth do not even know about it.
Yes, there were no cool jeans in the store, but an institute graduate left the walls of an educational institution without a debt, amounting to hundreds of thousands of dollars,
Have you heard of textbooks for five thousand dollars? And I did not hear until my daughter told me about such miracles in American universities.
In our universities, textbooks were free, they gave a hostel and a scholarship, and in Shtatpkh, either borrow from the bank for study, or ask your parents, or take them out on the street.

1) Average salary of an African American in the USA 2500 - may
2) By what standards did they live well? Poor medicine, less living space per person, less assortment of goods, etc.?
3) Do not compare the income of a University graduate in the States and in the USSR - after the return of the monthly loan, he had more in his hands, in terms of PPP, than a Soviet engineer 10 years after graduation
4) Textbooks for 5 thousand tanks - can you give more details?
5) And in Western Europe, study cost a penny and now it costs a penny

[kalibr]

Quote: Comrade

but a graduate of the institute left the walls of an educational institution without a debt, amounting to hundreds of thousands of dollars,

And he went to "work off his diploma" where Makar did not drive calves!
We graduate from high school and in deaf villages
Scatter to distant lands.
You will go to the reindeer,
I'll leave for hot Turkestan.
I will see the blue river
And, yielding to the requirement of years,
I will love a beautiful Uzbek,
And you will love Samoyed.

[Comrade]

Quote: kalibr

And he went to "work off his diploma" where Makar did not drive calves!

Vyacheslav, you are probably just not in the subject.
It's great to be able to get a job guaranteed after graduation. Here in the States most college and university graduates are not going anywhere, because there is nowhere to go. There is no work. And if there is, then first of all they take blacks, invalids and homosexuals, normal, ordinary - in the last place.
The debt of former students for studies is estimated at trillions of dollars, and they cannot be returned due to lack of work.
Along the way, one of the main advantages of the Union was that it was hired on the basis of business qualities, and not belonging to the "oppressed" or "minorities", as it is in the West.

[Aviator_]

Vyacheslav, you are probably just not in the subject.

In the subject Shpakovsky, in the subject. He went to teach in the village on assignment solely in order to get away from the army. He hated her even then.

[kalibr]

Sergei! He did not hate, but simply believed that one should live according to the law, and not according to concepts. According to the law, a graduate of a teacher training college had to go in a direction, and if he went to a village, then ... he could not go to the army. Are you proposing to break one law in order to fulfill another? But this is wrong, the laws work on the basis of the priority of the sequence, the citizen does not choose it. And when the law was fulfilled, I was already 27 years old ... Explained to your intellect?

[Aviator_]

Vyacheslav, during the described period was the priority of military service over distribution work. Even from full-time postgraduate studies, they were taken if there was no military department at the university. There was nothing wrong with that - leadership experience was gained (after university, they were usually sent to training and released as a sergeant - the squad leader). The experience is very rewarding. Is it clear to your intellect?

[kalibr]

No, Sergei, it is not available, because if it were as you say, then they would have taken it from the village, but that was not the case. They sent me to the village. You arrived there, noted at the military registration and enlistment office that you arrived by distribution, and ... work further - no one will call you. So do not be offended, but I am right, not you. The law is strong, but it's law! Remember. So it was under the Soviets, if not always, then at least it was declared. As well as now. But we must strive for this, right? The rule of law in all cases ... And rural teachers did not pay rent and had electricity and firewood for free. Apparently, the severity of their labor and moral damage were taken into account.

[Aviator_]

My school friend, a red-diploma student, who graduated from the faculty of industrial and civil construction of the Orenburg Polytechnic and studied at the Leningrad target graduate school, was pulled out of it for military service in 1979. Law is law. So do not be offended, then graduate school did not give deferrals from the army, only universities did. Well, what happened to you there, why they didn't take you out of the village, I don't know. Probably, a very pitiful letter came from the village school to the Moscow Region that there was no teacher.

[kalibr]

Quote: Aviator_

Well, what happened to you there, why they didn't take you out of the village, I don't know.

I am writing to you in Russian more than once. A LAW was passed, according to which rural male teachers were not subject to conscription. A letter is not a document, pitiful or not. Law is law. It is not difficult to check this on the legislative basis of the USSR, when what laws were adopted. I am sure that among the readers of VO there will be people with legal education who will confirm this to you.

[kalibr]

Here's what I found: The postponement was canceled on January 1, 2008 (Federal Law of July 6, 2006 No. 104-FZ "On Amendments to Certain Legislative Acts of the Russian Federation in Connection with the Reduction of the Draft Military Service"). This decision was due to the fact that the service life was reduced from two years to one year. Now they are trying to get her back. The law on education and by-laws on which it operated was adopted in 1976.

[Reptiloid]

Quote: Aviator_

Vyacheslav, you are probably just not in the subject.

In the subject Shpakovsky, in the subject. He went to teach in the village on assignment solely in order to get away from the army. He hated her even then.

There was a long time ago a comment ((conversation with stepfather)) that this happened earlier. Good day, Sergey

[Aviator_]

Good afternoon, Dmitry. The conversation with this professional "Marxist-Leninist" is already pretty boring to me. In our office, they are gradually moving away from quarantine, if an agreement with Peter goes, then you may have to go to you, you can meet.

[Reptiloid]

.......conversation....

I recently got something unusual, a young proletarian, knows little about the post-Soviet era, but I know about the revolution of 1917 and the Bolsheviks. He praised them. In their own way, of course.

[Aviator_]

That is, the purely academic conversation was on historical topics. It is good that young proletarians have their heads working in this direction.

[Reptiloid]

Quote: Aviator_

That is, a purely academic conversation was on historical topics. It is good that young proletarians have their heads working in this direction.

But how to say ... about purely academic ... it turns out that the young do not like everything in the current situation ...

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Comrade

In the Soviet Union, we lived in the autumn quite well by modern Western standards.

As Yegor Ligachev said, "We did not live richly, but well." Earlier, birthdays, holidays, summer trips to barbecue and "fishing" with songs and dances were common, and let each of us remember the last time he went out with friends to nature.

[Esoteric]

I'm glad for Ligachev. And my grandmother, the wife of a deceased officer, mother of two daughters, earned herself a pension of 45 rubles. Moreover, she was a drummer in the weaving industry, then fate brought her to the collective farm, where she plowed like a damn, and thanked Brezhnev very much that at least some kind of pension was given, and even a passport was provided. Not without humor was a person, called the CPSU (b) - the Second serfdom (Bolsheviks).

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Ezoterik

Not without humor was a person, called the CPSU (b) - the Second serfdom (Bolsheviks).

I wonder what your grandmother would say with humor about the present tense.

[apro]

Quote: The same LYOKHA

personally, most of the citizens of the USSR were below the blacks in the United States in terms of living standards ...

Give the details !!!! on what specific parameters?

[BAI]

I just want to shout: "GLORY to the Communist Party!"

Since the collapse of the USSR, I have always been tormented by one question: "Why were bananas in the Soviet Union once a year (1-2 weeks in early July), but under capitalism they are all year round, constantly?"

[A. Privalov]

Quote: BAI

Since the collapse of the USSR, I have always been tormented by one question: "Why were bananas in the Soviet Union once a year (1-2 weeks in early July), but under capitalism they are all year round, constantly?"

For some reason, under the USSR, bananas were straight, but under capitalism they were curves.

[BAI]

Under capitalism, even curves are yellow, under the USSR they are straight but green. Although now there are red (burgundy)

[Aviator_]

Green bananas were not only in the USSR, but all over the world (except for their places of growth) until the mid-70s, until the procedure for their transportation in an ethylene environment was developed, where they matured and did not rot. After that, yellow bananas became everywhere, capitalism and socialism have nothing to do with it.

[Comrade]

Quote: BAI

Since the collapse of the USSR, I have always been tormented by one question: "Why were bananas in the Soviet Union once a year (1-2 weeks in early July), but under capitalism they are all year round, constantly?"

And I am tormented by other questions.
Why, under capitalism, palm oil is put everywhere, after all, it is not excreted from the body, and why is genetically modified food everywhere, it was not there under socialism.

[BAI]

Why under capitalism they put palm oil everywhere, after all, it is not excreted from the body,

But because under capitalism, everywhere they put edible red, expensive palm oil, and in our food they use technical, yellow-white (I bought a 200-liter barrel with about 10 kg of such oil for a summer residence), at a cheaper price, which is not is displayed. And genetically modified products went on sale in 1994. They really did not exist under socialism.

[Roman1970_1]

From Stalin, Zhukov and Matrosov to Kutuzov, Zhukov, Ivan the Terrible and Alexander Nevsky. The blows were struck at the historical consciousness,

Where is Pavlik Morozov on the list?
At our school there was a pioneer squad named after Pavlik Morozov. It was a blow to my historical consciousness to learn that he killed his own father

[Same lech]

It was a blow to my historical consciousness to learn that he killed his own father

Lies in the name of noble goals ... as they say, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

[passerby]

Quote: Roman1970_1

From Stalin, Zhukov and Matrosov to Kutuzov, Zhukov, Ivan the Terrible and Alexander Nevsky. The blows were struck at the historical consciousness,

Where is Pavlik Morozov on the list?
At our school there was a pioneer squad named after Pavlik Morozov. It was a blow to my historical consciousness to learn that he killed his own father

Didn't he kill his own father?

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Roman1970_1

At our school there was a pioneer squad named after Pavlik Morozov.

An interesting coincidence, but my school also had exactly Pavlik Morozov's squad. But a lie in the name of the truth, and we believed it.

[Esoteric]

I always wondered why in all "socialisms" it is impossible to freely travel abroad? Why were they afraid? After all, the most advanced system ..

[Same lech]

I always wondered why in all "socialisms" it is impossible to freely travel abroad? What were they afraid of?

How what? ... Imagine Our man arrives in the USA and there the Negro has his own car, all sorts of clothes, his own villa ... sunny Florida ... beaches, beauties and after all this he goes back to Siberia in 30 degrees of frost to his communal apartment ... where on TV they broadcast to him about the successful completion of the next five-year plan. ... that's just vodka and pour it all.

[Doctor]

How what? ... Imagine Our man comes to the USA and there the Negro has his own car, all sorts of clothes, his own villa ...

Yes, even a member of the Supreme Council was stunned by an ordinary Houston supermarket.
Quite mediocre, as we now understand from the photograph.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Arzt

Yes, even a member of the Supreme Council was stunned by an ordinary Houston supermarket.
Quite mediocre, as we now understand from the photograph.

He possessed this from the bright packaging, he did not yet know that under the packaging everything was from one barrel, only seasoned with different poisons.

[ANB]

... Imagine Our man arrives in the USA and there a Negro has his own car, all sorts of clothes, his own villa ... sunny Florida ... beaches, beauties, and after all this he goes back to Siberia in 30 degrees below zero to his communal apartment ..

Is it written about the present times? True, now "our" man has no money to go to Florida.
Well and villas each Negro straight?

[passerby]

Quote: Ezoterik

I always wondered why in all "socialisms" it is impossible to freely travel abroad? Why were they afraid? After all, the most advanced system ..

Why do you just come in with your trump cards? Usually, this question baffles all the adepts who glorify the paradise life in the USSR. Indeed, if there was a paradise in the USSR, why was it so difficult, practically impossible, to leave this paradise for the hell of capitalism, while crowds of the unfortunate and oppressed did not rush from the hell of capitalism in the USSR?

[unaha]

"do not lead these little ones into temptation" - the people consume the goods through their representatives)))

[Pessimist22]

The title is not correct, "How the Communists killed the USSR" is more accurate.

[hagen]

Quote: Pessimist22

The title is not correct, "How the Communists killed the USSR" is more accurate.

In fact, no one killed anyone. It was just that what was built crookedly fell apart over time. And the "chief architects" did not notice the cracks, which had to be reinforced in time. Somewhere there was not enough knowledge, somewhere they were busy with internal "undercover" intrigues ... By tradition, this defeat turned out to be an "orphan".

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Pessimist22

The title is not correct, "How the Communists killed the USSR" is more accurate.

The top of the party killed, and we are communists, in this performance we were just extras.

[Unknown]

,, a troika, a bear, a district, perestroika rolls through the union, there was a saying in those days ... yes, we skated before ... nothing to say., glasnost, new thinking, the process has begun, etc. all the verbal husk of the humpback. At first, I got mad at first, because he himself, and many acquaintances at work, believed in this rubbish, I remember all the conversations, in cabins, smoking rooms. And so, after two years, it began to reach that this was not so. The smoke was gone, I didn't even talk about vodka I will . If you want to wave at the end of the working week, there were battles in wine and vodka stores, worse than fights without rules. coupons, some kind of nonsense. the union republics rushed in different directions. went complete collapse, everything, everything. armed clashes on the outskirts of the union, and it went off. but still, in March 91, the inhabitants of the union voted for the preservation of the USSR - 76 and a half percent in favor. and still destroyed. I can't believe it, in all sorts of conspiracies, plans, but it turned out because the whole collapse was well planned, and the opinion of the people did not give a damn, right? Do I have the same impression, or is it all my imagination?

[Same lech]

the whole collapse was well planned, and the opinion of the people didn't give a damn, right? Do I have the same impression, or is it all my imagination?

I'm afraid it's not your imagination somewhere in the Internet, 15 years ago, I read an interesting document with a link to the KGB archives (I don’t remember exactly) where the entire further scenario of the development of Russia after perestroika was described in detail ... and much is confirmed one to one.

[Unknown]

Well, you are of that opinion too. After all, the people's discontent was artificially inflated. At first, he was a hunchback in the role of the culprit, and then, smoothly, everything was transferred to the party itself. no smoke, damn the humpback is to blame, and of course the party, soap and detergents according to coupons, of course the paprtia is to blame, during the years of Soviet power they did not stock up on soap, commies, and stuff like that. At the same time, the memory of our people is very short, that then, what was now, so five years ago, completely flies out of the head, and that at the moment, the ultimate truth. If now there is no means, and always was not. you answered, well, what about the men, that was lying on the shelves, no one took it, right? and in response to you that you understand, you are a rookie, and you dreamed everything, but he himself, having served urgently, saw something, and you don’t consider yourself a rookie. After all, the first cooperative stores are the current boutiques of all kinds. I remember you come in, your eyes run up. here you, and imported clothes, at exorbitant prices, color TVs, ours there, birch, and others, Japanese, sleepyheads, cigarettes for every taste, imported, and I will accept ours. paradise. lo and behold, a pancake and a mouth opened. how so, a birch, in the store cost somewhere over 300 rubles, and there 700-800, and I won't even say about Japanese. but there is a queue in the store, and then take it and go away, just so that there is money, but there’s no money. okay with televisions I then smoked the Belomor 30-kopeck for a pack of St. There is always a ruble for a pack .. thoughts come to my mind why there are no state stores, but in those there are. Who is to blame for this, of course, commies are supplied to the side. and so in all their troubles. so that was the plan.

[samarin1969]

The naive belief in the "objective laws" of historical development turned out to be nonsense, both in 1917 and in 1991. Only Russia brought this sacrifice and disintegration. Both empires were destroyed by specific people with their own national interests. And all sorts of "... isms" have no meaning. If patriots remained in the elite of the state over the past 103 years, it would be wiser to let the "proud" figures from Amangeldy Imanov to Zviad Gamsakhurdia go on their "free voyage". Central Asia and the Caucasus are absolutely alien civilizations. The USSR was ruined by the national question, not by the "reforms" of Khrushchev-Gorbachev. The modern world is full of countries with a worse "socio-economic" situation than the Republic of Ingushetia or the USSR. And gray personalities steadily rule there. But only Sudan collapsed. For strangers in power, Russia remains just a "springboard" for experiments. In this regard, nothing changed in 1991.

[bober1982]

The author of the article does not quite correctly understand what the term itself means - counter-revolution. Perestroika could not be as he is trying to convince.
Counter-revolution is a struggle for the previous order and foundations.
And when M.S. Gorbachev defined perestroika as a revolution, he was right.

[Gardamir]

How interesting it is to discuss this article, the fans of clothes and "car drivers" gathered. If it was so bad in the Soviet Union, then why now there are homeless homeless and unemployed. Forgot the coronavirus? Where is our medicine? There was mutual assistance in the Union, and now sms for help. If so zealously rushed to discuss the shortcomings of the Union, then share the advantages of the Federation. Could anyone in the Union have suggested that they distribute territories, that defense ministers are builders, and a journalist is in charge of space. Either guards or athletes are sent to governors ...

[Krasnodar]

In the Soviet Union, medicine was good only in one direction - traumatological orthopedics. More or less, with reservations - cardiac surgery. The Russian Federation copes with the Crown no worse than others. The rest is tens of years behind the West. Mutual assistance - to bail the drunk, until the last one does not fire him from work - great. Only production was ineffective. And now they are homeless.

[Bar1]

Quote: Krasnodar

The rest is decades behind the West.

and what is there a lag of "tens of years"?
Maybe the production of penicillin, when Yermolyeva surpassed Fleming in the quality of the medicine, which saved thousands of lives of the Red Army during the war.
Or were there no medicines in Soviet pharmacies? Medicines were all their own, and not imported at 500 rubles per pack.
Demonstrative scarcity became the norm under Brezhnev, but Brezhnev and socialism are different categories.

[Krasnodar]

Backlog? In particular in oncology. In diagnostic methods for 20 years, in methods of radiotherapy for about the same, in surgery for 15 years, in chemotherapy - it is difficult to say, because no one in the world uses Soviet protocols, it can be limited in the countries of the former USSR

[Bar1]

Quote: Krasnodar

Backlog? In particular in oncology.

Cancer problems are problems of the new capitalist era. Was there a spread of cancer during the RI and early socialism, when nature was not yet polluted, and people ate food without chemicals? There was no such spread of this disease. But after the arrival of capitalism and chemical products, the disease came to us. It is necessary to monitor the products and correct the ecology and there will be no mass diseases and the need to fight them.

[Krasnodar]

With the development of diagnostics, they began to distinguish between heart attack and “died of grief”, colon cancer and “acute abdomen”, stroke and “paralysis”. The spread of cancer has always been critical in Russia and Northern Europe due to high alcohol consumption (liver cancer), unhealthy food (pies with meat and potatoes, widespread consumption of "vegetable oil", etc. - stomach and intestinal cancer), and Soviet industrialization added a smoothed environment, tobacco (lung cancer), and harmful production.

[passerby]

If it was so good in the USSR, why was it so difficult to leave it for a major country, and there were no queues of “oppressed” people from the capital countries who wanted to move to the Soviet paradise?

[BAI]

Could anyone in the Union have suggested that territories were distributed

1. 1944, a number of regions of Ukraine were given to Poland.
2. 1990 50 sq. Km of water area was given to the USA.
Well, on the little things - where they could have been for decades under contracts, they left and gave (returned) the territory ahead of schedule. And they could renew lease agreements.

[ViKLeV]

What is not yet mentioned in the article.
First. This is the seizure of the highest echelon of power by a pro-Andropov-minded group of individuals. It is possible that this was carried out out of good intentions by Andropov himself, who was clearing his way to power. Perhaps out of good intentions that he himself will do better.
Rumors about the imperial service at the wedding of Romanov's daughter.
Poisoning of Kulakov. The wife of a colonel of the KGB border troops, who was Brezhnev's nurse. Excessive outpouring of alcohol in combination with medications.

Well, Andropov came to power. I decided to tighten up my discipline. Checks began in cinemas and shops. They were looking for those who were supposed to be at work. At that time I returned from the army. I had to go with a military ID. Once I showed the senior lieutenant of the KGB that he had returned from the army a little over two weeks ...
The KGB men had nothing else to do with the abundance of a huge number of guild workers in the south. Later they wrote that the largest number of them was in Georgia (Shevardnadze) and in the region near Gorbachev. But these two are from Andropov's group ...

In June, an extraordinary Plenum on ideology had to be convened. It turns out that we had a very bad production discipline ... What kind of development is this forward? Mass registration of cotton in Azerbaijan and Uzbekistan ...

Andropov quickly left and people from his team ended up in power, some of whom, as it turned out later, collaborated with the Americans ... Maybe Andropov tovo, like Kulakova?

Gorbachev's business trip to England with his wife. Buying her jewelry. The ears of the British special services appeared ...
We chose Gorbachev after Chernenko. Here the confrontation between the Center and a number of republics, the Transcaucasian and Central Asian, has already manifested itself. These republics did not want to leave the USSR at all. They were in favor of being in the Union. And ordinary collective farmers worked there like slaves. And there were no nurseries and kindergartens. Children were taken to the field for the whole day and worked, worked ...
Only these republics had their own fad. These are gifts and money as gifts at all levels.
Specific example. A patient with appendicitis is brought to the Surakhani hospital. The surgeon says 50 rubles, otherwise I will not operate. A friend of the patient's father arrived - the head of the 1st department of the NORD NORD - an acting lieutenant colonel of the KGB. The operation was done, but a doctor was not even brought in ... Every 1 secretary of the republic was essentially a specific prince and on this condition zealously served (as he understood it) the Union.

To destroy the Union it was necessary to put the idea of ​​secession in the heads of the leaders of the southern republics. How to do it?
They did the same. Gljana Group in Uzbekistan. They showed a video about them. The Palace of Culture MPEI had a program "Lefortovo Saturdays". He was present when Glian and Ivanov were there. They were already in disgrace, but they showed a video of how they loaded gold jewelry into milk cans and sealed them. I could not imagine this when gold in cans was carried in the compartments of two BMP-2. There were also cars in the convoy. And the convoy was covered by two Mi-24s.

Then this team of investigators was divided into two and came to Azerbaijan and Armenia. It is clear that big business and plantings have begun there too. Naturally, they got into national ideas there. Pogrom in Stepanokert. Among the criminals were Azerbaijanis, Russians and one Armenians.
The center suddenly or expectedly faced problems of a national nature. But even in this case, the southern republics did not break away from the USSR. The gravediggers of this country were Ukraine (it was said everywhere that Ukraine feeds everyone and will be able to live well with its industry), Belarus (in a similar state) and the RSFSR, which alone did not have republican departments. On this in the republic they played that the new country from the RSFSR would live well.
After the three republics left the country, the rest also ended up outside the country ...
And this despite the fact that as a result of the March referendum, the overwhelming majority of ordinary citizens of the USSR spoke in favor of preserving our great country ...

After the collapse of the country, all ordinary citizens were in a poor condition, tk. those who came to power only needed to profit ...

[hhhhhhh]

The collapse of the USSR is a tragedy that saved Russia.
The need to spend money on the Asian republics, on the Ukraine, on the Baltic states, and on Georgia has disappeared.

[apro]

Quote: hhhhhhh

The collapse of the USSR is a tragedy that saved Russia.

I am happy for Russia ... along with the need to spend money on all kinds of hangers-on ... the need to take care of our people has also disappeared ...

[hhhhhhh]

I repeat, we ourselves wanted capitalism. Today we do not know what we want tomorrow: capitalism. socialism, anarchy ...

[Astra wild]

Cruel but true

[Boris55]

What Gorbachev and his entourage did to the USSR

The hunchback and Yeltsin hammered the last nail into the lid of the USSR coffin, and it all started with Khrushchev (initially he was in Trotsky's pariah and remained so, pretending to be a Bolshevik) and continued under Brezhnev and subsequent ones. Perestroika would not have been possible without the preparatory work of these "comrades".

Khrushchev tried to sharply change the course of the country - to join the tail of capitalism and start catching up and overtaking it - it did not work, the people did not accept. After the execution of the workers, they removed it and decided to take a longer route. Brezhnev gave the people a drink and finally discouraged any desire for initiative. At the same time, work was underway to train and replace Stalin's cadres with our own.

Perestroika - the return of the country to capitalism, began in 1952, when Stalin practically did not lead the country and it was marked by its beginning, expressed in the change of the name of the party - from the CPSU (b) to the CPSU. In the name of the CPSU there was no longer (b) - the Bolsheviks. Thus, they showed that the restoration of capitalism began in the USSR.

To blame everything on Humpbacked means not understanding all the deep processes that took place in the country.

[Ross xnumx]

Quote: Boris55

To blame everything on Humpbacked means not understanding all the deep processes that took place in the country.

And to tell people that in the USSR a company of two men operated in the leadership, this is meanness. To talk about the lack of initiative in the USSR from 1964 to 1982 is simply disgusting. You flip through the files of the magazines Tekhnika Molodyozhi, Nauka i Tekhnika, Novye Tovary ... Look at the samples of new Soviet weapons that "shook" the army of the country, on whose territory the foot of an enemy soldier has not set foot for hundreds of years ...
The replacement of business executives and industrialists with the party nomenklatura — this was precisely what killed the industry and the national economy of the USSR. Our party bosses puffed up and puffed out living outside of real life. At a time when the world (and in our country too) was developing and assimilating the latest technologies, the party leadership finished off the principle of democratic centralism and with persistent stupidity considered the study of the materials of the congresses to be the first task of the Soviet people ...
In your ode, it is only true that under the NHS, the very revisionism began, which threw the PRC and the USSR on different sides, that period of the frenzied dull imposition of the party will in all the institutions of Soviet society. But thinking people cannot live by the patterns of an incubator. That is why the party pyramid of the CPSU collapsed.
As for the drinking of the people, a bottle of vodka in the USSR of Brezhnev times cost 2 (87) at the cost of a kilogram of "Doktorskaya" - 3,12, ice cream - from 2,20 kopecks per glass, cinema tickets from 10 to 10 kopecks (25 , 50 kopecks - evening session). Among other things, they did not pay a dime for classes in the judo section (and after that too), technical circles and other DOSAAFs. You will compare the prices for today's products of distillery and the tariffs in different sports clubs, and then tell us when people were getting drunk.

[Boris55]

Quote: ROSS 42

And to tell people that in the USSR a company of two men was operating in the leadership, this is meanness

No, they were not Losers, just their idea of ​​the structure of the USSR was different from what Stalin built.

Quote: ROSS 42

about the lack of initiative in the USSR from 1964 to 1982 ...
The replacement of business executives and industrialists with the party nomenklatura — this was precisely what killed the industry and the national economy of the USSR.

When under Khrushchev (before Brezhnev) the practice of holding closed party meetings began, the party nomenclature stopped hearing the people.

Quote: ROSS 42

The replacement of business executives and industrialists with the party nomenklatura — this was precisely what killed the industry and the national economy of the USSR.

When Khrushchev removed Malinkov and took over his post, the power of the Soviets in the country ended. The power of the party nomenclature came, which was enshrined in the Brezhnev Constitution of Article 6 - the governing and guiding ...
It took them 40 years to reformat Stalin's society.

About Brezhnev soldering:

[Ross xnumx]

Quote: Boris55

When Khrushchev removed Malinkov and took over his post, the power of the Soviets in the country ended.

Do you want me to open a new history of the USSR? There was such Malenkov, there was a poem:

Cherry blossoms in Tbilisi
Not for Lavrenty Palych!
And for Kliment Efremich
And Vyacheslav Mikhalycha!
Lavrenty Palych Beria
Out of confidence
And comrade Malenkov
Kicked him.

I do not like it when people start telling me their theory of my practical life. I have read both about the guideline and about the Brezhnev constitution and have sufficient knowledge and understanding.

[Boris55]

Quote: ROSS 42

I do not like it when people start telling me their theory of my practical life.

Practical life is such that thanks to them all the USSR was destroyed. It was they who brought the first economy of the World to empty shelves. Compare what country Stalin "handed over" to them and what they turned it into.

If you think that only one Humpbacked Soviet Union collapsed, then you are deeply mistaken.

[Astra wild]

"To blame everything on Hunchback" means to cover up traitors and accomplices of traitors. After all, besides Gorbachev there was a Politburo, there was a Central Committee, and if they showed PARTY CONSCIOUSNESS, Gorbachev would capitulate. He's a chatterbox and a coward!

[nikvic46]

After some comments, you understand, the ideology of 90 worked wonderfully well. The Dagestanis have a proverb - "Knowledge is guests. The mind is the owner." A good owner knows who to welcome and who is not. Semi-feudal capitalism has no future. There are two havens here, either classical capitalism with its strict rules, or to look back. But since the abundance of goods is more important for us, we do not want to go back. As if under hypnosis, we look at full shelves, and think all this forever. Export, as we are. have already seen, a rather shaky thing. But there are simply no plans for internal construction. Export is good at the initial stage. And then you have to build for yourself. If someone thinks that the unemployed are not dangerous, he is mistaken. The state has given too much into the hands of private owners. It is clear if this is a small and medium business, but big business is not half of ours.

[tatra]

When I came to VO, I hoped that the military enemies of the communists would be bolder than the other enemies of the communists, but no, everything is the same as all of them - cowardice, fear of the slightest hint of responsibility for what they did, and all their comments in this topic in full accordance with the "policy of the party and government" - "and we have nothing to do with it, it's all the communists are to blame." In October 1917, some people, and at the end of the 80s, other people equally seized the country, equally imposed themselves on the country and the people in power, their System, economy, ideology, but what a cardinal difference in everything else, including what if the former have always been proud of what they have done since the October Revolution, while the latter cowardly blame the former on the responsibility for what they did, including for their anti-Soviet counter-revolution in Perestroika.

[Same lech]

Well, not everyone is so radical ... it is very wrong to accuse people of cowardice ... you cannot see the world only within the framework of your worldview.

[tatra]

Well, refute the exchange, tell us, for WHAT of what you, the enemies of the Bolshevik-Communists, DID in the Soviet and post-Soviet periods, you took responsibility, and did not cowardly dump the responsibility for what you did-on the Bolshevik-Communists?

[Same lech]

you, the enemies of the Bolshevik communists, DID during the Soviet and post-Soviet periods

I am not an enemy of the Bolshevik communists I just don't share their beliefs.
Oh Irina Irina well, why are you so primitive looking at the society of people.
Well, explain to me, for example, how is it that the convinced communist Vlasov, invested with the confidence of Comrade Stalin himself, surrendered to the Germans and went to their service.
Why did many Red Army soldiers who were not in the ranks of the Communist Party of the USSR go and die for their country at the most difficult moment for it?

[tatra]

HERE, and this is the fundamental difference between the real, by convictions, Bolshevik-Communists and their supporters, and you, their enemies. The communists executed a member of the Communist Party and an officer of the Red Army General Vlasov for betrayal, and the enemies of the communists, starting with their anti-Soviet Perestroika, praise Vlasov for his betrayal, justify and praise the collaborators of the Civil and Great Patriotic War, justify the crimes of the invaders of Russia and the USSR, the interventionists and Nazis.

[Same lech]

But Irina if a person is not a communist then he is an enemy of the communists ... if you follow your logic who is not with us is against us .... so what?

[tatra]

Yes, on the territory of the USSR, and all 70 years under Soviet rule, and 30 years under your anti-Soviet, the people are divided into Soviet and ANTI-Soviet, into "red" and "white" - cardinally different both in work and in mentality, intellect, priorities , attitude towards their country and people, history and culture of their country.And if the Soviet people always had and have ideological / political convictions, then the anti-Soviet people do not have them, only the benefit is always and in everything Here, put here 10 articles about hunger, of those who died of hunger in the Russian Empire - representatives of the anti-Soviet people will not care about all this, but post one article about the same, but in the USSR, they will immediately run to portray "philanthropy" to the hungry and starved to death, because it is PROFITABLE for them. ...

[Ross xnumx]

Quote: tatra

and put one article about the same, but in the USSR, they will immediately run to portray "philanthropy" to the starving and starving, because it is PROFITABLE for them. ..

I’ll tell you more, put here an article about the genocide of the people during the EBN, when people simply disappeared in dozens and hundreds without a trace, when the same “pestilence” began, which reduced the population of the country by millions in 30 years ... and here they will immediately run over “ bots ”, which with foam at the mouth will convince us that life has never been better than now, that only now people have felt the taste of real life ...

[Ross xnumx]

Quote: The same LYOKHA

I am not an enemy of the Communist Bolsheviks, I just do not share their beliefs.

When I read such sentences, I start to itch in the most immodest places ...
I do not like bombastic phrases and pro-government pathos. Tell us, a staunch anti-communist, how do you feel about the Victory of the USSR (the Communists in particular - leading and guiding ...) of 1945 over Nazi Germany? In your convictions, it was necessary to do as France did or follow the example of Poland?
And I do not share the views of people who used their party membership card as a mandate for the right to receive benefits, positions and dividends.
Let it be known to you that not all the people who carried membership cards in their pockets were communists in conviction. Accommodation, groveling, mimicry and other "high" qualities of body and soul did not pass these double-dealers and helped them become what today they swear by everything that they used to worship and before whom they lifted their fifths.
And don't tell us about your anti-Bolshevik beliefs from birth. We are aware of all this "circus" ...

[kalibr]

Quote: Varyag_0711

On good terms, people like you should have been strangled in diapers, you look and society would be cleaner and more beautiful.

The most active fighter for communism from 1982 to 1991? Are you nuts? How long can you write that "someone" was not hired as a teacher of the history of the CPSU, that in this post it was not just a joke to tell, it was impossible to smile wryly ... For this we were paid and given benefits and there was honor. Who could have slaughtered the chicken that laid such eggs? What are you ... And then, then what did you want me to praise the rotten corpse? It's funny!

[CBR600]

Bad, dangerous article. Not a word about sovereignty, neither geopolitical nor state. How ?!
Ideological work. Do you believe it yourself? Propagation of clothes, loss of the goal of a "bright future". hand face.
Here are the comments about the same. Transfer of power into the hands of the people (mother dear), are you talking about democracy? So they would say.
For me, a technocrat is closer to dates, numbers, conclusions of academics, formulas and calculations. Project is a word.
It smelled like an old-worm-headed "boot". I am ashamed for the article and for my comments - continuous EMO.
Something tells me to delete the comment with a ban.

[Same lech]

It smelled like an old-worm-headed "boot". I am ashamed for the article and for my comments - continuous EMO.
Something tells me to delete the comment with a ban.

Don't be afraid of it ...

[Ross xnumx]

How the USSR was killed. The Greatest Geopolitical Disaster

Why waste time there? How they killed, who killed, who drove the knife deeper ... Suffice it to say that some of the murderers live well, are kept at the expense of the people of the killed country, houses of memory are erected for them. and (again) they support and protect family members of murderers with budget funds ...
Abomination of the highest standard ...

[CBR600]

So that's what we are talking about ... In the article I did not see anything hidden, but in fact I sold the country, the same Central Committee of the CPSU. And after stagnation, they sold it with the theme "continuity". Is that what you need to stop it? Here's the question.

[Astra wild]

Of course, the Central Committee betrayed: we are used to scolding Gorbachev, but they forget that the Central Committee of the CPSU still existed and if they had shown PARTY CONSCIOUSNESS Gorbachev COULD NOT DO ANYTHING

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Astra wild

Of course, the Central Committee betrayed: we are used to scolding

Watch the video on the link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHp9Ji3BDf8&t=29sе

[Pardus]

Quote: ROSS 42

some of the murderers live well, are supported by the people of the killed country

Still, they also came to power in the dashing 90s

[Abrosimov Sergey Olegovich]

Maybe I'm wrong, but the article, at least in its published part (to be continued), is bright, biting and ... absolutely meaningless. Nothing more than a set of slogans. A kind of agitation.

[Pardus]

Quote: Sergey Olegovich Abrosimov

Nothing more than a set of slogans. A kind of agitation.

I agree 100%. Ordinary anti-Soviet propaganda.

[Astra wild]

Sergey Ol ,,, yegovich, you correctly noticed that this is a "set of slogans." Biting, emotional and NOTHING NEW. Except that I forgot the "evil matrix"

[pleschakovai]

The party nomenklatura supported Gorbachev, and also the Komsomol "drivers by hand" of all levels became piznesmen, bankers !!! We have got our hands on the natural resources of the country, factories and plants for not smelling tobacco !!! These parasites plundered everything that the Soviet people had been building for decades !!!

[Astra wild]

The partog of the plant lived on our street, he kept his nose to the wind and the next day after the fall of the State Emergency Committee, he healed party contributions, and then with that money he opened a copyright

[Operator]

By the end of the 1980s, the social composition of the population in the USSR had changed in comparison with 1922:
- the vast majority have received secondary education and, in terms of their cultural level, are on par with Europeans and North Americans;
- the overwhelming majority began to live in cities, i.e. has ceased to be associated with the idiocy of rural life;
- a middle class was formed in the person of those with higher and special secondary education.

On the other hand, the economy of the USSR began to lose its pace of development and lag more and more behind Western Europe and the United States (including in scientific and technical terms) due to the refusal of the Soviet leadership to invest in science and education - the senile leadership continued to increase the production of "cast iron "tanks, aircraft and ships instead of electronic equipment and computers.

The share of "pig-iron" products of the military-industrial complex in the gross domestic product of the USSR was several times higher than the level of the USA and Western Europe and was increasing every year - the standard of living of the Soviet population naturally fell, especially in relation to the West.

In addition, the marasmic leadership of the USSR, represented by Brezhnev, Ustinov and Andropov, also opened funding for the Afghan war, which was a bottomless barrel for burning resources. A coalition from the USA (coordinator), China (supplier of 90% of weapons) and oil-producing Arab countries (financial sponsors) fought against the USSR in the Afghan war.

An attempt by the leadership of the CPSU in the person of Andropov to change the situation by rejuvenating the leadership led to the coming to power of anti-communists in the person of Gorbachev and the company, who were distinguished by their careerism and low intellectual level (the redneck Gorbachev was chosen by Andropov on the basis of personal loyalty).

Seeing the inability of the union leadership to find a way out of the deepening economic crisis, the republics, one after another, began to adopt declarations of their sovereignty in order to exercise their constitutional right to secede from the confederation - the USSR. The most economically profitable way out was for the RSFSR, which subsidized all other republics (except Azerbaijan).

Gorbachev's attempt to destroy the RSFSR by signing a new union treaty in which the autonomous republics of Russia would have the rights of union republics with the right to secede from the RSFSR and the USSR ended with an attempt at a coup d'etat by the State Emergency Committee and a counter-coup by the leadership of the RSFSR.

The result of the latter was the withdrawal of Russia from the confederation - the USSR, with the collapse of the latter into separate states. In the newly formed RF, the national issue (cultural autonomy for small peoples without the right to secede from the federation), the economic issue (creation of an effective economy based on the principles of public-private partnership), the issue of re-profiling the military-industrial complex for the production of the most advanced weapons in the world (primarily strategic) and raising the level of culture and life of the population (by refusing to subsidize the Union republics and reducing the share of the military-industrial complex in GDP).

The territorial issue (returning to the borders of the state of 1945) will be resolved as Russia's military-economic potential grows and its geopolitical opponents weaken (the process in the form of Crimea, the collapse of the EU, the social crisis in Arab oil-producing countries and African-American restructuring has already begun).

[Astra wild]

Are you going to call VV "the savior of Russia"?

[Operator]

The process is an objective reality, GDP or someone else can only speed up / slow it down.

[Astra wild]

As soon as the party forgot or betrayed the covenants of Vladimir Ilyich and this was the beginning of the end of the Soviet Union

[Yuri Nemov]

Everything according to Darwin! The strongest survives, and if he bent down, then he was weak and not viable. This is not a counter-revolution! This is Evolution. Now the commies will start screaming that the whole thing is a betrayal. But traitors appear like maggots on a dead body. The USSR was already dead when it was attached.

[Astra wild]

Quote: passerby

If it was so good in the USSR, why was it so difficult to leave it for a major country, and there were no queues of “oppressed” people from the capital countries who wanted to move to the Soviet paradise?

How can you explain this yourself?

[kalibr]

Everything is relative. Here the leadership of the CPSU did not want a mass comparison. There would be a lot of awkward questions to answer.

[Astra wild]

Quote: Pessimist22

The title is not correct, "How the Communists killed the USSR" is more accurate.

It would be more correct to say: "how they betrayed Lenin's behests" when the party leadership forgot Lenin - the party degenerated

[iouris]

Quote: Astra wild

when the party leadership forgot Lenin - the party degenerated

The facts show that after the overthrow of the "Kerensky type of government" the state is controlled by the Cheka, the KGB (or as it was called after the KGB), and not by the party. The CPSU is not a party, but an organization. Not the fact that Brezhnev carefully read and deeply knew the teachings of Marx and Lenin. I'm not even talking about ordinary members of the organization. Many of their members run the modern anti-Soviet state, and therefore the height of the theoretical level of their communist consciousness and the depth of their communist consciousness are known to the masses of former members of the CPSU. Nothing outstanding.

[evgen1221]

Under Lenin and Stalin, Capital Marx and the ideas of communism were not dogmas and axioms, Stalin wrote about changing the concept of communism based on realities and challenges, which he instilled in the elite. But under the late Brezhnev, Suslov, realizing that one of the Mohicans remained and that Brezhnev scored on theory and much more, began to elevate the idiology of communism to the rank of holy scripture and dogmatism, which put a sickly face on Soviet society under Stalin, which was developing and being brought up in a very correct way ... And in general, they did not call that time stagnation, the country was actively developing, in domestic politics and stagnation, but from 2010 to our time, if this is not stagnation, then something is already worse.

[Astra wild]

Quote: tihonmarine

Quote: Roman1970_1

At our school there was a pioneer squad named after Pavlik Morozov.

An interesting coincidence, but my school also had exactly Pavlik Morozov's squad. But a lie in the name of the truth, and we believed it.

I had it after Zina Portnova

[iouris]

"To be continued ..." But there was no need to start.
The history of the counter-revolution and its driving forces has long been published by experts. Based on the opinions of experts, one can foresee the near future of the state, the "elite" (or elite) of which has set the goals that it has set.
The author of this publication is not an expert and is more of a writer than a reader. Well, everyone who still thinks (or thinks what he thinks) has certain thoughts on these issues. It is not a fact that all of them must be brought out to the public, because the public may not be able to stand it.

[Astra wild]

The author, in and of themselves, Glasnost and Democratization are good and necessary things.
Vladimir Ilyich also said that the Soviet government has nothing to hide from the people, when they begin to hide the truth from the people - the path to abuse.
Democratization is also necessary. Remember, "Lenin's walkers" - I understand the leader's democracy. Lenin had many more worries than ours, but he listened to the common people. Try now in a "democratic society" to get an appointment with your mayor. At best, the secretary will be supportive to you, otherwise they may not be allowed into the reception

[Kwas]

Quote: The same LYOKHA

This means that over the 70 years of the power of the communists of the USSR, they have not been able to create a new person free of base vices ... lies, hatred, rudeness, arrogance, etc.

It should be borne in mind that by no means all 70 years the communists who wanted this were in power.

[Kwas]

Quote: Krasnodar

Only production was ineffective.

Capitalist adherents like to exaggerate the legend about the "high cost of production of consumer goods." But the details are missing. Unlike the capitalist countries, the production was subject to the requirements of the state standard in relation to quality, and an all-Union network of repair shops was created. Naturally, this increased the cost of industrial products, but at the same time lengthened its service life several times. In practice, this means that if the final service life of a bourgeois product is 5 times less, then the price should be considered 5 times more. And if 10 - then 10 times! And this is not an exaggeration at all. I wash on a Vyatka washing machine, automatic 12, produced in 1984, with one cheap repair. There are two refrigerators in the kitchen (it happened so) - "Minsk15m", also from the 80s, and "Sviyaga", which I remember from childhood, only changed a penny relay once or twice. My Chaika vacuum cleaner has been operating since 1957 without any repairs at all. And that's okay! A technique that can serve for a long time, fulfilling its functions, must be durable. And what is the average service life of similar bourgeois equipment? And this is no coincidence. The more often a consumer changes equipment, the poorer he will live, the more difficult it is to pay off loans. But the more profits the capitalists will receive. Because of this, the household appliance repair sector was deliberately killed. Instead of buying all the new equipment, I spent money on what I personally wanted, and not for manufacturers and advertisers. And at the same time, for some reason, I always had enough money, and there was no need to get into debt, called loans.

[evgen1221]

I agree with you, it's scary to live in the world of marketing. And even worse is the fact that with these changes in branded trendy knick-knacks and handicrafts, people carelessly spend resources and time in the direction of the waste dump, littering everything around.

[Kwas]

Quote: bystander

There was no global war in 1940

Only the Second World War! There are already millions of victims in China. And only a complete idiot could think that it would not touch us!

[passerby]

Quote: Kwas

Quote: bystander

There was no global war in 1940

Only the Second World War! There are already millions of victims in China. And only a complete idiot could think that it would not touch us!

How many wars are going on now? There was a war of 1914, there was a war of 1905, but no one except the communists turned the workers into serfs, and is not transforming them. A pitiful excuse for a future war. Moreover, this provision from the decree was in effect until 1956 and applied not only to workers at defense plants, but in general to everyone. It's just that Comrade Stalin saw that people were beginning to flee from merciless exploitation and decided to make them serfs. Moreover, there was a separate rule abolishing dismissal for absenteeism and replacing this dismissal with compulsory work at the place of work. Those. people were ready to be fired under the article, just to quit, can you imagine what inhuman conditions were created for them.

[Kwas]

Quote: bystander

Without a market and free pricing, all attempts to reform the economy were pointless,

Well, here you are wrong. "Free pricing", which by the way is not found anywhere in nature, is not a synonym for economics, but a propaganda cliché. Hostile, of course. The creators of Western "macroeconomics" do not understand the difference between a real economy, which is engaged in production, and a financial system, which is engaged in making a profit.

[passerby]

Quote: Kwas

Quote: bystander

Without a market and free pricing, all attempts to reform the economy were pointless,

Well, here you are wrong. "Free pricing", which by the way is not found anywhere in nature, is not a synonym for economics, but a propaganda cliché. Hostile, of course. The creators of Western "macroeconomics" do not understand the difference between a real economy, which is engaged in production, and a financial system, which is engaged in making a profit.

Do you know that you essentially quoted the arguments of Abalkin and Ryzhkov, who implemented their failed reform in the USSR, when they left control over pricing in the hands of the state, as a result of which, by 1990, they completely ruined the Soviet economy? :)

[Andobor]

There is nothing to blame on the mirror if the face is crooked,
If the traitors made their way to the very top, then the system is rotten through and through.
We still got off easy at its collapse, and got out relatively quickly.

[valton]

Quote: kalibr

And then I got tired of ... "holding back." I wanted a natural state and this is the result.

And then there is such a word - Judas.

[Kwas]

Quote: tihonmarine

For some 5-7 years, we all became anti-communists, evil, greedy, envious, with twisted brains.

And the preparatory work for this had been going on for 30 years already. At first, they believed Khrushch, they began to listen to different voices and trust them, laugh at the anecdotes they composed, absorbed selfishness ... And our propaganda went into a puddle of the village, because it was no longer ours ...

[Alexander Greene]

I recommend everyone to watch the video "The Workers' Party of Russia. Part 1. Prerequisites for the creation of a party of the working class in Russia. M.V. Popov"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHp9Ji3BDf8&t=29s

There Professor Popov explains very well how they destroyed the USSR, who destroyed them, who and how they opposed them.

[Kwas]

Quote: kalibr

The fish swim to where it is deeper, and people row to where it is better. That's all. All sorts of "isms" are worth nothing if you have the opportunity to take, but your neighbor does not. You don't want to share with him or wait until he has such an opportunity, do you?

Among humans, selection operates at the group level. When there are too many of these fish, and they end up in the leadership, the society (company, ethnic group, country) loses wars and ultimately dies.

[Oberleutnant]

Hello. Everything went according to the "Gavard Project". The new general secretary of the CPSU, the collapse of the USSR with the help of color revolutions and then point 3 did not work: the division of Russia into small spheres of influence of other powers. Putin has come.
Yes, you can consider it a counter-revolution. Among the Germans in the eastern part of Germany, we see Mr. (comrade) Gorbachev as a traitor.

[Operator]

Declare yourself Vendians and secede from the FRG on the basis of the right to self-determination of nations - we will support

[VIP]

Quote: Serg65

Quote: Bar1

but after his death his successors lost to representatives of another Trotskyist-opportunist line

And who are these receivers ?????

An interesting question, but the answer?

[evgen1221]

The strongest blow to the state was struck by the practice of postscripts and kickbacks to the top of gigantic sums (Cotton Business, Medunov and others like that), then the desire to save and spend these millions in style. There is a conspiracy theory that Gorby received some left-handed sums and when he tried to attach them in the west he was taken by the gills there, and then the execution of (mutually beneficial) promises and tyranny on his own, plus the general attitude of that elite, to clean up everything for himself (what happened to many).

[Astra wild]

Quote: abriv

Quote: Astra wild

As soon as the party forgot or betrayed the covenants of Vladimir Ilyich and this was the beginning of the end of the Soviet Union

In fact, "the party forgot or betrayed the covenants of Vladimir Ilyich" in December 1927. After that, the USSR survived for another 64 of its 69 years.
Lord, how uneducated you are.

I say that it was the beginning, and 1991 the end

[Astra wild]

Quote: Oberleutnant

Hello. Everything went according to the "Gavard Project". The new general secretary of the CPSU, the collapse of the USSR with the help of color revolutions and then point 3 did not work: the division of Russia into small spheres of influence of other powers. Putin has come.
Yes, you can consider it a counter-revolution. Among the Germans in the eastern part of Germany, we see Mr. (comrade) Gorbachev as a traitor.

By himself, Gorbachev could not do ANYTHING, but the Central Committee forgot the party CONSCIOUSNESS

[Reverend]

They began to kill the USSR much earlier. 1986, I am working on the creation of a domestic local network, suddenly the order is to drop everything and go to mow hay, moreover, with a scythe which was invented 500 years ago. We come, we see a picture of a silo pit they are raking out the grass mowed last year, the smell is terrible, the view is terrible. To the laughter of drunken collective farmers, we begin to mow the grass and put it back in the pits ... ... The collective farmer foreman says that he does not understand the essence of our work, everything that we do in a month he will do in a week, but the order to provide us with a front of work. Moreover, everyone was sent, from workers from factories to KGB officers (they quarreled with them because of the convenient field). So, to sum up, the development team has been preparing feed for 30 days, using technology from about the 14th century (which will then be thrown away). Eats food 10 times more than earned money. The team does not work for about 90 days (30 days mows and drinks, 30 days off and 30 days of vacation, and all this is paid) And so throughout the country, starting in 1980, what kind of economy will survive. This is sabotage ... ...

[place]

Deuteronomy - CH 28

If you do not listen to the voice of the Lord your God and do not try to fulfill all His commandments and His decrees that I command you today, then all these curses will come on you and will overtake you. Cursed you will be in the city and cursed you will be on the field. ... ... You will be cursed at your entrance and cursed at your exit.
...... You will be betrothed to a wife, and another will sleep with her; you will build a house, and you will not live in it; You will plant a vineyard, and you will not use it ....... Your sons and your daughters will be given to another people; .... and there will be no power in your hands. The fruits of your land and all your labors will be eaten by a people you did not know; and you will only be oppressed and tormented all the days ... And you will lose your mind from what your eyes will see.

.... You will bear sons and daughters, but you will not have them, because they will go into captivity. All your trees and the fruits of your land will be destroyed by rust.

The stranger who is among you will rise above you higher and higher, and you will sink lower and lower; he will lend to you and you will not lend to him; he will be the head and you will be the tail. And all these curses will come on you, and they will persecute you and overtake you, until you are destroyed, because you did not listen to the voice of the Lord your God and did not keep the commandments

[place]

And the point here is not in the USSR, but in the fact that under any power and economic order, some are better at observing at least one or two Commandments, while others do not follow a damn thing, including the fair laws that were in the USSR. What you sow, you reap.

[Barmal]

and not a word about Andropov, well = well. As if KaGeBe is out of business at all. From the NKVD only shoulder straps remained there. Lavochka Andropova directed the staging of the demolition of Soviet power, and the communist elite ordered the coup. Gorbachev was gearing as best he could. The GKChP showed precisely his cowardice and lack of will. The GKchepists themselves were more desperate people. The old men tried as best they could, but the younger communists were so confident in themselves that the idea of ​​high-ranking protection of Chubais and Gaidar was common throughout the country.

[sanya]

Great happiness for the Russian people!
And then he was now the general secretary of some Berdymmurlozhopzadeyan and the end of the Russian people ...

[depressant]

The article from July 22 appeared on my phone only on the 24th. But yesterday I looked through all the sections up to weapons. Someone am I in the throat? Well, I'll read the forum today and wait for the next article. Hopefully it will be as strong as this one.

[kalibr]

Quote: depressant

Hopefully it will be as strong as this one.

Did you accidentally make a mistake with the adjective?

[depressant]

Vyacheslav Olegovich, what a bad guy you are! )))

[kalibr]

No, dear Lyudmila Yakovlevna Kuznetsova, not at all. It's just that I have developed a team spirit and I am pleased when my colleague's article collects a lot of clicks and comments. This increases the investment attractiveness of the site, and what is written in them specifically ... does not play a special role. The main thing is that one comment causes many other comments. Apparently, this has not occurred to you?

[depressant]

Are you serious? But if we proceed from your message, then this article has already received a large number of comments and clicks. However, perhaps you are just kidding me. In addition, I am not ready to speak on the topic of the article now. The mood is not right. It happens.
And ... please. Please do not call me by my last name. It feels like the investigator is talking to me.

[kalibr]

Quote: depressant

so I got a lot of comments and clicks.

Not without my very active and also your participation. And calling a person by their full name is, alas, a long-standing teaching habit. "You can't teach an old dog new tricks." And mock a woman? Fi, how did it occur to you. What a woman wants - what God wants - this is my holiest rule.

[nnz226]

Or maybe it's good that Russia got rid of the ballast, consisting of the republics of Central Asia and Transcaucasia ?! We got rid of the parasites, who were getting too much of the state budget, into which money was torn from Russia (RSFSR). Sprat limitrophes themselves fell off, they were also sticking fish, even if now juices from the EU! And the "fraternal republics" turned out to be a haven for "scorpions and echidnas" - ukrobabuinia is an example of this! If the second secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine, ideologist Kravchuk turned out to be an unfinished Bandera member (a lamp post has been crying for him since 1991), then why do we need this ?! So that in 1941 they shot in the back and staged executions (a la Babi Yar) ?! As the saying goes: "Deliver me, O God, from such friends, and from enemies I will correct myself!"

[DPN]

nnz226 (Nikolay) Yesterday, 21:54 NEW
0
Or maybe it's good that Russia got rid of the ballast of the republics of Central Asia and Transcaucasia ?!
Think a little, YOU are ballast yourself or you are not someone else: look at the map of the country.

[DPN]

Man is the same predator, only more sophisticated, in the USSR they tried to make a man out of this predator. At that time it was said, "Man is a FRIEND to man, or else Man sounds Proud." and TV replicates and amplifies it, so it is mostly written correctly.

[Griol]

Almost 30 years have passed since the collapse of the USSR and the neo-communists are still looking for reasons why the largest nuclear power in the world collapsed, descended into muddy waves of bandit lawlessness. For 73 years, the leaders of the CPSU led the people to happiness - through the civil war, which claimed tens of millions of lives, surplus appropriation and dispossession, repression and millstones of the Second World War, post-war devastation, state loans, which remained on paper, the era of massive deficits, and finally, robbing the people of frantic inflation, plundering everything that belonged to the state, giving away, plundering, giving birth to a new "class" - the oligarchs. And now their followers of the "struggle for the people's happiness" are looking for the "guilty" with the stubbornness of idiots in the fact that the country then suddenly became poor and wretched. There is a frenzied propaganda of the repressions of Soviet people by the Stalinist regime, and "the best friend of athletes" is seen as an angel in the flesh, that inhuman exploitation of people in the pre-war period, especially collective farmers, the slave labor of the multi-million Gulag is presented as a miracle of the "Stalinist economy." And the most offensive thing is that the numerous "defenders" of socialism of that time do not get it, that the economy and the collective farm economy were doomed to perish from the very beginning of their existence. IN ONE YEAR OF THE EXISTENCE OF THE SOVIET POWER COLLECTIVE FACILITIES COULD NOT SUPPLY THE COUNTRY. And if N. Khrushchev had not concluded an agreement with the United States and Europe on the purchase of grain and meat in 1961, the country could have expected a famine. Over the past century, the communists destroyed the state twice, as a result of which the state lost the territories that had been collected by the Romanov centuries. The first time - by destroying the front and making a coup in the First World War, the second time - by bringing the economy to collapse, the people in 1991. And this is not about Gorbachev. Had someone in his place been harsher, the collapse would still have occurred, only with a lot of blood.

[place]

Quote: Griol

IN ONE YEAR OF THE EXISTENCE OF THE SOVIET POWER COLLECTIVE FACILITIES COULD NOT SUPPLY THE COUNTRY.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

For meat production, for example, the Russian Federation reached the level of the RSFSR in 1989 only in 2016.
Moreover, this is Rosstat data, which must be trusted "with restraint." In 1989, the production of wheat, milk, butter, eggs in the USSR was greater than in the United States.

Even more curious is the story of the disappearance of the "Soviet deficit". He disappeared, "the market was saturated" and "Gaidar saved the country from hunger" - in a week - after Yeltsin's January (1992) decree on the transition to market prices. Where did all this come from with a deficit? This is a miracle, like the biblical

But just as a person. who lived in the USSR, I will say that even when there was a "shortage of food" in stores (at least until 1987), it was not in the collective farm markets and was not in the refrigerators of citizens.
Learn the materiel, and you will understand that, in addition to facts, you also need to understand their meaning, logic.

[place]

Quote: ort

besides the facts, and to understand their meaning, logic.

-----------------

Let's continue ... and try to understand... In 2013, Academician Shirokorad published a very interesting book: "The Great Contribution". In it, he tells that in the post-war years the occupation zone in Germany was robbed to the skin. This fact is undoubted and just as undoubtedly silenced with us. A gigantic stream of values ​​went from Germany to the USSR. Thanks to this, the USSR quickly recovered after the war. The great commander Zhukov, who was then commander of the Western Group of Forces, was in charge of this process.

Let us ask ourselves the question: "What values ​​stuck to the hands of the fathers-commanders"?
I think they are quite large. And above their heads the sword of retribution was already rising, many were threatened by the prospect of execution. This is a hypothesis. but very, very likely, if anyone is familiar with the history of Russia. And then an alternative is inevitable: Either HSE, or a coup d'etat. This was brilliantly organized by the Khrushchev-Zhukov group in 1953.

What happened next was known - then there was a "thaw" - the steepest turn of the state policy of the USSR. I believe it was a consequence of blackmail by the Western special services, which were undoubtedly in the know. The result is quite logical, this is the coming to power of "Gorby", whom Margaret Thatcher pointed out as a desirable leader, and of course -1991

[andrew42]

“If there is capitalism in the Russian Federation, then why did the state leave education and healthcare free for citizens?” - this is a sham, step by step state funding is being emasculated, de facto giving way to “forced” payments from non-settlers.
"Why does the state have an ownership interest in natural monopolies and commercial structures?" - because the state itself is privatized by several clans and the supreme “arbiter”. This is THEIR state, and this “state within a state” is more real than ever. In contrast to the state “for all”, written down on paper. There is no NEP, there is a New Russian Nobility, and the Oligarchy is the top of its pyramid.

[Sokol_2]

It all started with Khrushchev. The United States created Dulles's scheme for the collapse of the USSR using the Trotskyists Khrushchev, Brezhnev, and Gorbachev. Thaw, Stagnation, and Perestroika were the development of Dulles' technologies.

[place]

Quote: Sokol_2

Perestroika was the development of Dulles technologies

-------------------------------------------

Yes... Dulles is responsible for the history of the USSR and Russia, well, there are also Jews in charge, the Bolsheviks of 1917, the Tatars, the Caucasus......

The Russian people do not bear any responsibility for Russia. He is simply present as long as he is allowed to live here. It usually happens that popular movements appear among the people, which make the history of the country. But Russia is unique. Of course, there is a “popular movement” in it such as organized crime groups or AUE, but they don’t seem to be making history, but making money. Her story is being made by Dulles, Reagan and others. The Russian people very much condemn all this and are waiting for the arrival of the “good master” who will fix everything.

[Valery Smirnov_2]

I would not blame all the troubles on Gorbachev. Yeltsin put an end to the existence of the USSR with the full connivance of the KGB. What is now called “color revolutions” in our country is attributed by Russian propaganda to the activities of the United States, although under the leadership of the same United States, Yeltsin carried out an armed seizure of power in October 1993, which was received with approval in the United States. And further. I don’t think it’s entirely true to say that as a result of Gorbachev’s “perestroika” capitalism won as something unacceptable. Capitalism has a different face in different countries and in different countries, under capitalism, people live differently. .Take the Scandinavian countries. Capitalism, but they live better than any country from the so-called social. camps in the “era of developed socialism.” Look at Finland, there is no gas or oil, but they live in the top places in terms of living standards in all sorts of world rankings. Under capitalism. What prevents us from living like this, given the presence of gas, oil, timber, diamonds and other riches that are stored in our bowels? "Perestroika" has sunk into oblivion. If we look for those to blame for our current troubles, we will not advance one step towards well-being and prosperity. We will only have the chance to begin a progressive movement towards development in all spheres of life in our society when we have the courage to call a spade a spade. Half-truths and outright lies that flow from the screens of federal channels, seasoned with comments from various kinds of “experts” - this is what is bringing the Russian Maidan closer. But the people don’t need this. The people need peace of mind and confidence in the future. Is this a lot?

[Vit43]

This is what it means when people who are weak by nature come to power, even if they are placed in the chair of the head of a state that, by its power, controls the entire World, which everyone is afraid of, without the consent of which no one has the right to do anything, Instead of using these opportunities to continue to bend competitors with the aim of redistributing all the world's wealth in his favor, a weak person, on a reflexive level, will definitely try to give in to someone, to obey, even if he sees that he is under whomever he wants to bend, he himself is afraid of.
Alas, this is the nature of weakness - it is structured this way, therefore the human factor is the main and decisive condition in determining the goals and objectives that this or that state will set for itself.

[DPN]

they didn’t put him up against the wall, but made him a hero, gave him a Nobel Prize, made him the best German, VVP awarded him an order, immunity and others. From here the conclusion means the people. Or maybe the population needs such Judases.

[Ivan Ivanov_27]

Why does Gorbachev receive a Russian pension? Are they entitled to a pension?

[Vitaly Utkin]

What was the reason for M.S. Gorbachev's failure? The fact that he, having received the absolute power of the secretary general in the country, immediately began to introduce democratic principles into the environment of degenerates, primitives.

Democracy is the rule of the people. But in order to exercise reasonable government, the mentality of this people must be true morality. The majority of the Russian people professed drunkenness and fascism.

Gorbachev, possessing very many positive features, could do much more good for the people of the country if he carried out the reforms he had outlined, using the fullness of his secretary general power. Only by “cultivating” the people over several decades of wise and strict (!) Government, it would be possible to transfer democracy to such a people.

If we continue to indulge the dominant mass form in our country - with its evil, aggressive, devoid of Love and stuffed with psychopathology mentality, with its nothing-understanding of religion - then no other positive state reforms will help to prevent further decay and decay of souls on the territory our country.

***

It is necessary to educate the spiritual and moral principles of humanism.

Why in the “calm” countries of the “East” friendliness, cordiality, disinterestedness, hospitality are characteristic national features - in contrast to Russia, where you can hardly find this now? The reason ... In those countries, this is how the education of many generations of people went. And in Russia, the “masses of the people” have been educated for almost an infinitely long time on the ideas of aggressive intolerance and fear; as well as drunkenness.

Spiritual culture on Earth is close to decay.

***
Many bright minds in human history have sought to create models of society that can be united under a single term. But real attempts to get closer to this ideal did not always have a positive effect, which is what we observe.

And the basis of social harmony should not be the structure of the economy and the method of distribution of material goods, but the psychological state of members of society. Namely, there must be sincere goodwill between people in their relationships with each other.

The greatest importance should be given to the ethical values ​​that have been proposed by great thinkers as the basis of morality.

[weddu]

You see, for a major “perestroika” in the country, a clown is needed, a bargaining chip who can be easily removed without consequences. Such clowns were Khrushchev, displaced after the coup, and Gorbachev, displaced after the coup... In the USA, apparently, they appointed Trump as a clown... Yes, it must be said that it was not without reason that the Democrats nominated a black man for president.

[obratov]

What happened to Vavilov? What about Tupolev? What about Korolev?
There was also this Sakharov...
Who destroyed the temples? Americans?
Why was agriculture destroyed?
We were only able to provide ourselves with bread now (before the Gorbachev era, we bought it in Canada).
Do we continue to chew snot?

[BOPOH50]

Can anyone answer why Gorbachev receives a pension from the country he destroyed, and why Russia is paying for it? I heard a lot in programs about Gorbachev’s “activities”, why Russia pays him a pension for the USSR, but he didn’t even blather for Russia anywhere. Why? Not a single public institution is seeking a trial of Gorbachev.

[valerij zviozdkin]

Communism could not be built, but I think a normal economy can be built. There was a lot of work.