Military Review

Browser in China: AL-31F engines do not provide increased combat radius J-20

71
Browser in China: AL-31F engines do not provide increased combat radius J-20

In the Chinese thematic media, the theme is that the J-20 fighters lack truly powerful Chinese-made engines. Once again, it is noted that Chinese aircraft manufacturers have reached "heights" in the use of "stealth technologies", the creation of an airframe using modern composite materials, but there is still a problem with engines.


Chinese columnist Hu Mikai writes that the J-20 fighters were "diagnosed with heart failure." With this term, the Chinese author denotes problems with aircraft engines, which are characteristic of both the J-20 and the J-31 under development.

From the material of Hu Mikaya:

Now J-20s are equipped with Russian AL-31F engines or Chinese WS-10 engines. But their performance is still low for the tasks that are set before the fifth generation fighters. Russian engines of this model do not provide an increase in the combat radius of the J-20. According to the plans, the combat radius is over 2 thousand km, but in fact it does not exceed 1,5 thousand km.

Is it connected with Russian engines?

According to a Chinese observer, "the WS-15 engine is a big hope for Chinese aircraft manufacturers."

Target values ​​of thrust for this engine are not less than 18 tons. At the moment, it is said that it was possible to bring the thrust indicator of Chinese aircraft engines to 16 tons, but after that the developments "stalled". An increase in engine thrust leads to an abrupt increase in fuel consumption, which, of course, negatively affects the radius of combat use of a new generation of Chinese aircraft. As a result, instead of 2000 km, values ​​appear that are a quarter less than the declared indicators.

Hu Mikai hopes that when the WS-15 engines are refined, "the combat effectiveness of Chinese fighters will be revolutionized."
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  1. Lebed
    Lebed 20 July 2020 15: 45 New
    29
    Again they drive our engines ... Do your thing.
    1. NIKN
      NIKN 20 July 2020 15: 54 New
      12
      Quote: Lebed
      Again they drive our engines ... Do your thing.

      And what is there to drive? Did they design the airplane for a reason? We use other engines for the aircraft of the 5th generation, and we designed them for a specific engine. Our AL-31F, for what was designed and gives out, no more, no less. The way out, either the engine is different, or the design of the aircraft is to be improved, to lighten, but then you have to throw everything out of it ..., in general, there is always a choice. laughing
      1. hydrox
        hydrox 20 July 2020 19: 29 New
        +4
        Chinese comrades should be advised:
        If you don’t know how to build engines for airplanes - go to drones or MLRS ... there you don’t need such power and thrust. laughing yes good
      2. Bad_gr
        Bad_gr 20 July 2020 21: 17 New
        +4
        Now J-20s are equipped with Russian AL-31F engines or Chinese WS-10 engines. But their performance is still low for the tasks that are set before the fifth generation fighters.
        It is not a low-performance engine, but an aircraft too large for these engines. Among the aircraft claiming the fifth generation, the J-20 is the largest.

        1. Herman 4223
          Herman 4223 20 July 2020 23: 53 New
          +1
          After that, they will say that their plane is less visible on radars than ours? The greatest exposure is given by the glider, and the larger it is, the greater the exposure.
        2. paco.soto
          paco.soto 21 July 2020 00: 02 New
          0
          Thank you for the information.
    2. Vladimir16
      Vladimir16 20 July 2020 15: 54 New
      +3
      Russian engines of this model do not provide increased combat radius J-20

      And should have ?????
      A bad dancer is shaking his slippers.
      1. Orange bigg
        Orange bigg 20 July 2020 16: 01 New
        +5
        Does China hope to get product 30? Is this a hint from Chinese journalists? Product 30 will be ready in only two years.

        In the summer of 2022, the military will begin testing an improved version of the fifth-generation fighter of the fifth generation Su-57, which received the official name "Su-57 of the second stage" and the unofficial nickname "Super-Dry."

        Among the changes in the next version of the Su-57, one should expect a new engine and a package of modern avionics and airborne systems. The aircraft itself will become more maneuverable, tenacious and inconspicuous.

        Megapolis development work on the creation of the Su-57 of the second stage includes equipping the fighter with a high-power engine, which is now known as “Product 30”. The new engine will allow the aircraft to accelerate to supersonic speeds without afterburner. The engine will receive a modified nozzle shape, which will reduce the visibility of the radar apparatus. Also, electric motors will contribute to this, which will replace the hydraulic drives of the control surfaces.


        Pilots will be provided with new screens and a wide-angle collimator sight. In addition, the aircraft will expand its arsenal. The transition to the production of new aircraft will begin only after 2024.

        https://zen.yandex.ru/media/hi-tech.mail.ru/rasryta-sudba-supersuhogo-5ef783e4a543d97b7011c75e
        1. K-50
          K-50 20 July 2020 17: 03 New
          +8
          Quote: OrangeBigg
          Does China hope to get item 30?

          They wanted, at least, to buy AL-41s from the Su-35th, they were told only with the plane. So they wander, it’s not so and it’s not that. fellow lol
          1. Tcheluskin
            Tcheluskin 21 July 2020 08: 47 New
            0
            Why can't they buy AL-31F-M1, or we don't sell them? The thrust is ~ 1 tf higher, that is, plus 2 tf per aircraft.
            1. Cyril G ...
              Cyril G ... 21 July 2020 11: 15 New
              0
              There was a big contract for the supply of Al-31 engines to China, I don't remember the details. equipped with them mainly Jian-10
            2. sg7s
              sg7s 22 July 2020 14: 48 New
              -1
              emnip, they got the M1. The plug is in their shoulder blades, they cannot copy it in any way ... This is called - there is no academic school. American professors in China joke - "you can bring a few thousand more professors here - there will be sense only in three or four generations"
      2. Russian2020
        Russian2020 20 July 2020 17: 05 New
        +1
        And the bells are Chinese
      3. askort154
        askort154 20 July 2020 19: 10 New
        +3
        Vladimir16 ....A bad dancer is shaking his slippers.

        He doesn’t even pull on a dancer. He has a surname - Hu Makai. crying hi
    3. credo
      credo 20 July 2020 15: 58 New
      +4
      Quote: Lebed
      Again they drive our engines ... Do your thing.

      It is possible that the matter is not the engines, but the products themselves on which they are installed.
      And without knowing the level of the Chinese "expert" it makes no sense to discuss this topic at all.
      1. avg
        avg 20 July 2020 21: 33 New
        +4
        Quote: credo
        It is possible that the matter is not the engines, but the products themselves on which they are installed.

        The point is in school, in continuity. And if they, using our collapse and their spies around the world, sprinted in aircraft construction, then the story with engines is somewhat different, too versatile competencies are concentrated in them. We have also lost specialists and we cannot launch the Il-114.
    4. Mavrikiy
      Mavrikiy 20 July 2020 16: 01 New
      +1
      Quote: Lebed
      Again they drive our engines ... Do your thing.
      Have already done:
      At the moment, it is said that it was possible to bring the thrust index of Chinese aircraft engines to 16 tons, but after this development they “stalled”. An increase in engine thrust leads to an abrupt increase in fuel consumption, which, of course, negatively affects the radius of combat use of a Chinese aircraft generations. As a result, instead of 2000 km, values ​​appear that are a quarter less than the declared indicators.
      request recourse Nature laws. And we still do not offer them a new engine model. repeat
      1. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh 20 July 2020 16: 19 New
        -10 qualifying.
        We'll have to suggest. "Product 30" for the Su-57 will go to the Chinese.
        Like the Su-57. It's unavoidable.
        Russia is seriously tied to China with the export of raw materials. Europe is leaving
        gradually. Gazprom will have no one to sell except China.
        1. MMX
          MMX 20 July 2020 16: 58 New
          +8
          Quote: voyaka uh
          We'll have to suggest. "Product 30" for the Su-57 will go to the Chinese.
          Like the Su-57. It's unavoidable.
          Russia is seriously tied to China with the export of raw materials. Europe is leaving
          gradually. Gazprom will have no one to sell except China.


          Well, let’s say that Gazprom will even more or less survive without Europe. But Europe without Gazprom gas - no. There is simply no supplier in the world who could replace Gazprom in the European market. Every year this dependence is growing.

          But, just in case, put you a plus.
          1. voyaka uh
            voyaka uh 20 July 2020 17: 12 New
            -7
            The whole world is switching to liquefied natural gas.
            It is still, on average, more expensive than a gas pipeline, but this is only
            a matter of time. Terminals and storage facilities are being built throughout Europe.
            And on the Atlantic coast of the United States too. Gas is distilled there from Texas.
            For export to Europe.
            So far, Qatar rules in Europe, but the Americans are already squeezing it out.
            Turkey is trying to combat this expansion by creating a large hub,
            but it is unlikely to beat the liquefied gas.
            1. Mountain shooter
              Mountain shooter 20 July 2020 17: 54 New
              +4
              Quote: voyaka uh
              For export to Europe.
              While Qatar rules in Europe, the Americans are already pushing it

              Who is pushing Qatar in Europe? Americans? Aha! Russian LNG from Yamal.
            2. MMX
              MMX 20 July 2020 18: 57 New
              +5
              Quote: voyaka uh
              The whole world is switching to liquefied natural gas.
              It is still, on average, more expensive than a gas pipeline, but this is only
              a matter of time. Terminals and storage facilities are being built throughout Europe.
              And on the Atlantic coast of the United States too. Gas is distilled there from Texas.
              For export to Europe.
              So far, Qatar rules in Europe, but the Americans are already squeezing it out.
              Turkey is trying to combat this expansion by creating a large hub,
              but it is unlikely to beat the liquefied gas.


              Gazprom supplies the EU twice as much gas as all LNG producers combined (including the Russian Federation).
              As correctly noted, Qatar in the LNG market in the EU is more crowded than the Russian Federation, not the United States.
              Plus, the Chinese market, which seems to have already raised duties on American gas, respectively, of the Russian Federation, and here it becomes a major player.
            3. yfast
              yfast 20 July 2020 19: 32 New
              +2
              It is more expensive. He is more dangerous. Why don't Americans heat them at home?
            4. Cyril G ...
              Cyril G ... 20 July 2020 19: 51 New
              +3
              You feel like a "good gas specialist", not a word on the essence of the problem, however, this is your style so apparently.

              It is still, on average, more expensive than a gas pipeline, but this is only
              a matter of time.

              Well, yes you heard .... The dilemma of Ishak and the padishah ..

              They are building terminals and storage facilities throughout Europe.

              The economy is really nothing to do with ....
            5. Zaurbek
              Zaurbek 21 July 2020 07: 46 New
              -1
              Determines the entire distance from extraction / processing to the consumer. Up to several thousand kilometers a pipe is more profitable, more than liquefaction and a tanker. The main enemy of the Americans is Qatar, it is a competitor for liquefied gas. On the scale of the Russian Federation, where there is a lot of gas, but there is no access to the sea or to the ice-free sea .... but somewhere there is. The main thing is not to get hung up on the pipe. We wrote that we are starting to patent liquefaction and buy companies with patents and liquefaction technologies .... we were puzzled by tankers. This means that the main development will be in the area of ​​liquefaction.
        2. 5-9
          5-9 20 July 2020 18: 37 New
          +4
          Smishno ... we're like, with tears, will be forced to "give" the Chinese Su-57 so that they buy resources from us? Like Capitol Hill crying every new Penguin shipment?
          Yes, and get acquainted with the share of SOEs in the Europa gas market in absolute and dynamic over the past 15 years ...
          1. voyaka uh
            voyaka uh 20 July 2020 23: 21 New
            +2
            "... we will be forced to" give "the Su-57 to the Chinese
            so that they buy resources from us? "////
            ----
            Over the past decades, Russia has had two modern and complex
            military developments that went into the troops: Su-35 and S-400.
            And both of them were sold to China. Why ?: Your quote at the beginning of my post.
            Now China needs a Su-57 with a new engine.
            1. 5-9
              5-9 21 July 2020 16: 15 New
              0
              Far from being the most complex ... S-400 is just S-300 on a new element base, simply because Soviet S-300s simply cannot be produced ... S-300VM is no worse than, for example
        3. at84432384
          at84432384 20 July 2020 19: 11 New
          +3
          Gazprom has someone to sell gas to the Russian consumer. We have no end for our consumers, but how China will feel in six months or a year and whether it will have the resources to develop its aviation is a big question. The global economic crisis is just beginning.
    5. Bar1
      Bar1 20 July 2020 16: 42 New
      0
      and take more kerosene and you will fly away.
    6. Observer2014
      Observer2014 20 July 2020 18: 25 New
      -1
      Quote: Lebed
      Again they drive our engines ... Do your thing.

      Who drives? A browser from China? wassat laughing Yes, let the Chinese honor our observers with VO laughing
  2. iouris
    iouris 20 July 2020 15: 47 New
    +1
    As it is - so it is. You have to do yours.
  3. tralflot1832
    tralflot1832 20 July 2020 15: 48 New
    +1
    I have suspicions that our engine is being abused! Maybe an American one with an F 35 or 22 was stolen. They are the Chinese, they need an eye and an eye behind them.
  4. rotkiv04
    rotkiv04 20 July 2020 15: 49 New
    +1
    Well then talk
  5. Doccor18
    Doccor18 20 July 2020 15: 52 New
    0
    Hu Mikai hopes that when the WS-15 engines are refined, "the combat effectiveness of Chinese fighters will revolutionize

    It is logical, and we hope that the AL41 will increase the capabilities of SU57.
  6. exo
    exo 20 July 2020 15: 53 New
    +6
    They won’t do it. Westerners, in the light of what is happening, don’t shine. And copy at a decent level, stolen, not enough technological groundwork.
  7. bar
    bar 20 July 2020 16: 48 New
    +4
    Our AL-31F cannot disperse the brainchild of Chinese aircraft manufacturers who have reached "heights" in the use of "stealth technologies", in the creation of a glider using modern composite materials? It's sad. sad
    And these talented aircraft manufacturers under what engine did they sculpt their offspring? If it is for AL-31F, then apparently in their "stealth technologies" they miscalculated somewhere, since it does not fly. And if some other engine was meant, then what is our Russian to blame? Let them make their own, a flag in their hands and a drum around their neck.
    1. Russian2020
      Russian2020 20 July 2020 17: 04 New
      +1
      Was there a stealth
      1. bar
        bar 20 July 2020 17: 09 New
        +2
        Was there a stealth

        I would put the question more broadly - is there "stealth" in principle, or is it another "invisible dress" of the naked king? Until this is verified by a real war, it is difficult to answer this question. At least the F-117 shot down at one time in Yugoslavia is suggestive. what
        1. Revolver
          Revolver 20 July 2020 17: 44 New
          +4
          Quote: bar
          the F-117 shot down at one time in Yugoslavia is suggestive.

          They shot down the S-125, but they aimed at the TVK, since it is technically impossible to achieve invisibility in the optical range so far.
          1. Bad_gr
            Bad_gr 21 July 2020 09: 54 New
            0
            Quote: Nagan
            in the optical range, it is still technically impossible to achieve invisibility.

            ".... The extraordinary began as soon as the engine started. This was expected: the rumor that it was necessary to wait for the start of the engine had already passed through the base, so the audience remembered all the details. It came, as expected, weakened by the distance" From the screw! " and "There is from the propeller!", then blue jets of the first exhausts burst out of the pipes on the sides of the hood, and immediately, simultaneously with the increase in speed, the plane began to disappear from view.

            That it scatters, gains height, it was possible to determine already only by the movement of sound to the forest and above the forest. Following immediately both fighters rose: one began to catch up with the "invisible", and it was removed from the "twin". The survey was carried out from the ground, simultaneously from several points.

            The pursuit did not work. The fighters have lost their "invisibility". And the audience lost it. That is, several times over the field, over the town, in a completely empty sky, the close sound of his engine slowly rolled, and the fighters rushed about in a completely different direction at that time ... "

            Source: https://versia.ru/v-sovetskom-soyuze-pered-vojnoj-byl-sozdan-nevidimyj-samolet
      2. 5-9
        5-9 20 July 2020 18: 38 New
        +1
        There is no stealth with PGO ...
  8. Fedorov
    Fedorov 20 July 2020 17: 01 New
    -1
    To begin with, let them create a hlp klpia, the Kitaez could not.
  9. Russian2020
    Russian2020 20 July 2020 17: 03 New
    +1
    All the best made in Russia
  10. rocket757
    rocket757 20 July 2020 17: 04 New
    +1
    The engine is the "heart of the machine"! There is no subtracting or adding.
    Is it worth waiting for breakthrough achievements in this direction, is this a question?
  11. EnGenius
    EnGenius 20 July 2020 17: 12 New
    +2
    I don’t understand these Chinese people. First, they write that the Al-31f is not enough to achieve the desired range, then they write that there is not enough thrust ... Did the Chinese gentlemen try to do tanks anymore? And if they also need more thrust for speed, then fuel tanks are all the more necessary! Or maybe their airframe weight is too large for these engines? Projected - now they are surprised ?!
  12. Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 20 July 2020 17: 13 New
    0
    They are being sold Al41, what prevents them from delivering? For a transitional period.
  13. Ros 56
    Ros 56 20 July 2020 17: 26 New
    +1
    That's bad luck, well, a stone flower does not come out, let them call the mistress of the copper mountain. recourse
    1. Revolver
      Revolver 20 July 2020 17: 40 New
      +1
      Quote: Ros 56
      well, the stone flower does not come out

      And it was not easy to swallow it wassat
      1. kulinar
        kulinar 20 July 2020 18: 49 New
        0
        Quote: Nagan
        Quote: Ros 56
        well, the stone flower does not come out

        And it was not easy to swallow it wassat

        This is a masterpiece in one phrase! laughing
  14. Revolver
    Revolver 20 July 2020 17: 39 New
    +3
    Hu Mikai hopes that when the WS-15 engines are finalized
    Those. when they buy a SU-57 with a 2-stage dviglom, they will take it apart by a screw and start the copier. And after all, what a shame, there are "smart people" fool who will sell.
    1. Cyril G ...
      Cyril G ... 20 July 2020 19: 47 New
      +3
      Quote: Nagan
      they will take it apart by a screw and launch a photocopier.


      With engines, such a trick does not pass from the word at all. You need to know HOW EXACTLY and WHAT the engine was made of. That is, you need to have a full description of the manufacturing process ... And that is not a fact.
      1. dauria
        dauria 20 July 2020 20: 21 New
        0
        That is, you need to have a full description of the manufacturing process ... And that is not a fact.


        The British also thought so with "Nin" and "Derwent". Our copy was even better. Without a "complete description of the technical process". The general level is important - science, factories, engineers of all stripes ... and obstinacy. The Chinese have everything - they will do it. Actually, they fell in love with the American Pratt & Whitney F119 - 135. They've been poking around for a long time. Do the squeeze.
        Something arrogant to their techies. Do not forget that their lunar rover on the moon ride?
        1. Cyril G ...
          Cyril G ... 20 July 2020 20: 29 New
          +1
          So I don’t argue what the Al-41 analogue will do in terms of power, reliability and real resource. Someday ... In the far away light. Years of commercials in 10 if you're lucky.
          1. dauria
            dauria 20 July 2020 20: 45 New
            -1
            Years of commercials in 10 if you're lucky.


            A couple of years. Not more. And we will run to them for the engines. As we are now running after electronics. However, we are already buying electric motors and do not frown.
            1. Cyril G ...
              Cyril G ... 20 July 2020 21: 11 New
              +1
              This is what I have heard for at least 10 years. And things are still there. For some reason, it doesn't work with motors ...
      2. Revolver
        Revolver 20 July 2020 20: 31 New
        0
        Quote: Cyril G ...
        With engines, such a trick does not pass from the word at all.

        Yes and no. Well, the time between failures is many times less than the original. Well, fuel eats more. But better than nothing at all.
  15. Tugarin
    Tugarin 20 July 2020 18: 04 New
    14
    Do the Chinese bring down the price? Do not like it - do not take it.
  16. ZVS
    ZVS 20 July 2020 19: 17 New
    +1
    Do not like engines, then went on! Do your ... if you can.
  17. Cyril G ...
    Cyril G ... 20 July 2020 19: 44 New
    +2
    Hu Mikai hopes that when the WS-15 engines are refined, "the combat effectiveness of Chinese fighters will be revolutionized."


    In 10-15 years, WS-15 can and will reach the resource, level of reliability and power Al-41F1
    1. Zaurbek
      Zaurbek 20 July 2020 21: 31 New
      0
      Why not buy Al41 now? It is serial .... we already sold it. For us, he will soon be the last generation. And you can put on J10.
      1. Cyril G ...
        Cyril G ... 20 July 2020 21: 47 New
        +2
        Duc sold only motors with fighters. However, rumored to have sold a lot of motors. 24 Su-35 + 144 engines, rumored to be a fighter + 6 reserve engines. However, I repeat this rumor.
        1. Zaurbek
          Zaurbek 20 July 2020 22: 16 New
          +1
          Yes, I do not mind. Simply, if the problem is in the turbojet engine, then it is logical to install a more modern Russian turbojet engine. Maybe they can’t dock his UVT with J20 brains? So you can order without UVT.
  18. Cyril G ...
    Cyril G ... 20 July 2020 20: 02 New
    +1
    Quote: Nagan
    but guided by TCEs, b

    Not. This is nothing more than a version ...... In the presentation of the division commander Zoltan Dani there the range of detection and taking escort beats more or less with theory. F-117 was detected by P-18, taken to escort CHP-125 and shot down by a two-rocket salvo.
  19. Lord of the Sith
    Lord of the Sith 20 July 2020 21: 19 New
    +2
    Bad dancer shakes the balls
    Chinas in fact signed in their technical impotence. Well, they can't do it right and that's it!
  20. Herman 4223
    Herman 4223 20 July 2020 23: 38 New
    0
    A little more fuel to stuff into the plane so surely enough?
  21. paco.soto
    paco.soto 21 July 2020 00: 16 New
    -2
    We'll have to suggest. "Product 30" for the Su-57 will go to the Chinese.
    Like the Su-57. It's unavoidable.
    Russia is seriously tied to China with the export of raw materials. Europe is leaving
    gradually. Gazprom will have no one to sell but China. ©
    Neutral opinion: Maybe it will be so, because logical cooperation with Ukrainian engine builders will immediately cut off the United States.
  22. poquello
    poquello 21 July 2020 00: 26 New
    0
    Hu Mikai hopes

    Is this a new meme?
  23. Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 21 July 2020 07: 40 New
    0
    The Ministry of Defense ordered the UEC - Ufa Engine-Building Production Association (UEC-UMPO) a universal engine that could be installed on Su fighters of generations 4+ and 4 ++. This was stated by the general director of "UEC-UMPO" Evgeny Semivelichenko.

    “Every year the A. Lyulka experimental design bureau (a branch of UEC-UMPO. - RBK) receives 60–80 patents for something new. Moreover, today we are considering the possibility of creating a kind of universal engine using components of previous engines, ”he said.

    Semivelichenko said that this universal engine can be installed on the Su-27, Su-30 and Su-35 fighters. “There is such an order from the Ministry of Defense, we are carrying out this work,” he said.

    Read more at RBC:
    https://www.rbc.ru/business/21/07/2020/5f143e619a7947a9fd659e6c?from=from_main_3
  24. Max Lebedev
    Max Lebedev 21 July 2020 19: 10 New
    +6
    They are bad at bargaining.
  25. Yuriy Filatov
    Yuriy Filatov 22 July 2020 18: 51 New
    0
    And they should have increased the range ?!
    Physics is difficult to deceive, if the engine has high power, then it eats a little more, all other things being equal