Military Review

Great extinction. Why can certain types of weapons disappear?

93

There is such a concept - "closing technology". It is a technology (or product) that in many ways nullifies the value of technologies previously used to solve similar problems. For example, the appearance of electric bulbs has led to the almost complete rejection of candles and kerosene lamps, cars have replaced horses, and someday electric cars will replace cars with internal combustion engines.


In the field of weapons, development proceeded in a similar way: firearms weapon displaced bows and arrows, artillery replaced ballistae and catapults, armored vehicles replaced horses. Sometimes the technology "covers" another type of weapon. For example, the emergence of anti-aircraft missile systems (SAM) and intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBMs) jointly effectively buried the projects of high-speed high-altitude bombers developed in the USA and the USSR at the height of the Cold War.


Closed projects of supersonic high-altitude bombers: American B-70 Valkyrie (left) and Soviet T-4 / "Product-100" (right)

Meanwhile, progress is not standing still, rather, it is even gaining momentum. New technologies appear and improve, which then come to the battlefield. One of these technologies is directed energy weapons - laser weapons (LW). The technologies for creating lasers, which first appeared in the middle of the XNUMXth century, have now reached sufficient perfection to make laser weapons a real and integral element of the battlefield.

Speaking of laser weapons, one cannot fail to note a certain skepticism inherent in the weapons community. Some talk about the imaginary "weatherproof" of laser weapons, others about the significantly lower levels of energy that LO can transfer to targets, compared to kinetic weapons and explosives, and others about the simplicity of protection from laser weapons using smoke and silver.

These statements are only partially true. Indeed, laser weapons cannot replace missiles and shells, cannot burn through tank armor in the foreseeable future, protection from it will be created, although it is not as easy as it seems... But just as air defense systems and ICBMs "ousted" high-altitude high-speed bombers, laser weapons will completely "close" or significantly reduce the effectiveness of a number of weapons used on the ground, on water and in the air. And we are not talking about lasers with a power of megawatts and gigawatts, but about relatively low-power, but rather compact LR samples (with a power of about 5-50 kW).


American combat vehicle Stryker MEHEL, equipped with laser weapons with a power of 5-18 kW

The thing is that one of the main trends in the development of the armed forces of the leading countries of the world in recent decades has been equipping them with high-precision weapons (WTO), and one of the most effective ways to ensure "high-precision" is the use of homing heads (GOS), functioning in the optical and thermal wavelength ranges. Currently, they are counteracted by masking and / or setting up various interference: smoke, heat traps, stroboscopes and low-power laser emitters. All this, although it reduces the effectiveness of the WTO with thermal / optical seeker, but not so significant that the armed forces of the leading countries of the world refuse them. But the appearance of a relatively powerful laser weapon is quite capable of changing the situation.

Let us consider what types of weapons can significantly lose their effectiveness or even become completely unusable as a result of the widespread use of laser weapons on the battlefield.

On the ground


The use of optical seeker in armaments operating against ground targets makes it possible to hit both stationary and moving targets with high accuracy. Optical seeker has advantages in target recognition in comparison with ARLGSN (active radar homing head), operating in the radar wavelength range, which are also subject to the effects of electronic warfare (EW) systems. In turn, seeker guided by reflected laser radiation require target illumination immediately before hitting, which complicates the tactics of using such weapons and endangers the target illumination equipment carrier.

An example is the relatively widespread American anti-tank guided complex (ATGM) FGM-148 Javelin ("Javelin"), equipped with an infrared homing head (IR seeker), allowing to implement the principle of homing "fire - forget".


ATGM FGM-148 Javelin

Attacking armored vehicles in the upper, most vulnerable part of the hull, the Javelin ATGM is able to overcome most of the existing active protection systems (KAZ), but its IR seeker should be extremely vulnerable to the effects of powerful laser radiation. Thus, the introduction of armored vehicles and anti-aircraft missile systems (SAM) of short / short range into the KAZ promising small-sized lasers with a power of 5-15 kW can completely neutralize the value of this type of ATGM.

A similar situation is developing with missiles of the AGM-179 JAGM type. The difference is that the multi-mode seeker AGM-179 JAGM includes not only the IR seeker, but also the ARLGSN, as well as a semi-active laser homing head. As in the case of the Javelin ATGM, powerful laser radiation can hit the IR seeker, and, most likely, the semi-active laser homing head will be disabled, and the ARLGSN, in turn, can be suppressed by electronic warfare systems.


AGM-179 JAGM

It can be assumed that the resistance to laser weapons of the "Gran" complex and the "Krasnopol" artillery shell, equipped with a semi-active laser homing head, will be called into question. It is quite difficult to intercept them with anti-aircraft weapons, but, having lost the seeker, they will turn into ordinary unguided ammunition with even worse characteristics than ordinary unguided mines and shells.


The Krasnopol guided artillery shell and the Gran 'guided mine equipped with semi-active laser homing heads

Another type of weapon, the survival of which will be in question, will be self-targeting combat elements (SPBE), which can be delivered by cluster bombs, cruise missiles or multiple launch rocket systems. Equipped with an IR seeker, they will also be exposed to powerful laser radiation. It is possible that parachutes providing controlled descent of SPBE will also be vulnerable to the impact of aircraft.


Self-aiming combat element

All small unmanned aerial vehicles, which are now used for reconnaissance, adjusting fire, targeting a WTO and even for delivering WTO strikes, will be under threat, provided that they have only optical detection equipment.

Great extinction. Why can certain types of weapons disappear?

UAV Hermes 90 of Elbit Systems is equipped only with optical reconnaissance means

All of the above applies to other weapon systems with similar operating principles and applied technical solutions, the production of military-industrial complexes (MIC) around the world.

Where will all this lead? If missiles with multi-mode seeker continue, then the widespread use of LOs with a power of 5-50 kW may well lead to the almost complete disappearance of homing ATGMs with optical and thermal seeker, as well as other weapons of a similar type. The future of weapon systems with semi-active laser homing heads is in question. Sad prospects for SPBE and small UAVs.

Most likely, there will be a return to ATGMs and missiles of other classes, the guidance of which is carried out by wires, radio commands or along the "laser path". It is theoretically possible that ATGMs will appear in which ARLGSN will be used, but their price will be very high, which will prevent their widespread use, and exposure to electronic warfare means will reduce their effectiveness in comparison with existing solutions, with multi-mode GOS.

On the water


On the one hand, the value of optical and thermal seeker for anti-ship missiles (ASM) designed to destroy surface ships (NK) is small: most of the modern anti-ship missiles are equipped with ARLGSN, on the other hand, there is an opinion about a significant decrease in the effectiveness of anti-ship missiles with ARLGSN with active use ships of electronic warfare equipment and masking curtains.


Setting up a cloaking curtain by a surface ship and a surface ship covered by a cloaking curtain in the visible and thermal range

In this regard, the value of multi-mode seeker may increase, which will make it possible to defeat surface ships with a higher probability. However, the introduction of laser weapons could put an end to this undertaking.

Dimensions and power-to-weight ratio of surface ships allow them to be laser weapons of greater power, size and power consumption. Therefore, despite the fact that, on the whole, an anti-ship missile system for a laser is a more complex target due to its size and the effect on the laser radiation of the drive layer of the atmosphere, the probability of disabling the optical and / or infrared seeker will be quite high, which will return the anti-ship missile developers to the problem of countering surface ships through the use of electronic warfare equipment and the setting of masking curtains.

In turn, missiles equipped with only optical / IR seeker, can become completely useless in the foreseeable future.


Norwegian anti-ship missile Naval Strike Missile (NSM) is equipped only with IR seeker, which makes it a candidate for "extinction" in the event of widespread proliferation of laser weapons on surface ships

In the air


Leading countries of the world, primarily the United States, equipping aviation with defensive laser weapons is being considered. In particular, lasers with a power of 100-150 kW are planned to be installed on transport aircraft. aviation, tactical fighters F-35, combat helicopters AH-64E / F "Apache", as well as medium-sized UAVs. It is highly probable that laser weapons will be part of the promising bomber B-21 Raider, or a place will be reserved on it for the subsequent installation of the LO. How will this affect the “extinction” of weapons?

The most vulnerable are anti-aircraft guided missiles (SAM) of portable anti-aircraft missile systems (MANPADS) with IR seeker. As in the case of the Javelin ATGM, they can be effectively disabled by powerful laser radiation, even without the need to destroy the SAM structure.


MANPADS with IR seeker will cease to be a threat to combat aviation

As in the case of ATGMs, other methods of targeting can be used in MANPADS: ARLGSN or guidance along the "laser path". In the first case, MANPADS will become much more expensive and more massive, and in the second, its effectiveness will decrease: the operator will need to monitor the target until it is destroyed.

The same applies to other missiles with optical / thermal guidance, for example, the 9M100 short-range missiles from the S-350 Vityaz air defense system.


SAM 9M100 with IR seeker (located under the discarded fairing)

Another candidate for screening is short-range air-to-air missiles, which are most often also equipped with IR seeker.


Short-range air-to-air missile

As we said earlier, the installation of a different type of guidance systems on these weapons either increases the cost of the listed weapon systems or reduces their characteristics.

Protection technology


Is it possible to protect optical / thermal seeker from powerful laser radiation? Mechanical shutters are not suitable here: their response inertia is too great. So-called optical shutters with different operating principles are considered as a solution.

One of them is the use of limiting substances with nonlinear radiation transmission. At low powers of the incident (passing through) radiation, they are transparent, and with an increase in power, their transparency exponentially deteriorates up to complete opacity. It is believed that the inertia of their actuation is also too great, and it is impossible to overcome this for fundamental reasons. In addition, they can only protect against radiation of limited power and duration of exposure due to thermal destruction of limiter devices, since the accumulation of thermal energy of absorbed laser radiation in the limiter medium during its operation is fundamentally unavoidable.

A more promising option is the use of thermo-optical shutters, in which the incident light is reflected from a thin-film mirror onto the sensitive matrix of the receiver. When laser radiation hits, the power of which exceeds the permissible threshold, it burns into the film and goes into the storage device, while the receiver remains intact. Variants are considered when the mirror layer can be restored in vacuum due to the deposition of the material previously evaporated by the laser (after the cessation of exposure to high-power laser radiation).


Images from RF patent No. 2509323 for an optical passive shutter: 1 - metal mirror film melting and evaporating under the action of radiation, 2 - transparent substrate, 3 - parabolic mirror, 4 and 5 - input and output apertures of an optical device with a shutter, 6 - region c film 1 exposed to laser heating, g is the focal length of the parabolic mirror, L is the lens

Will optical shutters save the above types of weapons from "extinction"? The question is controversial, and in many ways the answer will depend on the power of the aircraft deployed on land, sea and air platforms.

It is one thing for a second to withstand a pulse or a series of laser pulses with a power of 50-100 W, focused to a point with a diameter of 0,1 mm, another thing is the effect of continuous or quasi-continuous laser radiation with a power of 5-50 kW or more, focused into a point with a diameter of about 1 cm, within 3-5 seconds. Such a lesion area, power and duration of exposure is likely to lead to irreversible destruction of the optical shutter. Even if the sensitive element survives, the area of ​​destruction of the reflecting mirror will not allow the formation of an image of the target with an acceptable quality, which will lead to failure of the capture.

Radiation of 10-15 kW can directly destroy ammunition bodies (albeit with insufficient efficiency), and its effect on the optical / IR seeker, most likely, will lead to its irreversible destruction: it is enough thermal effect to "lead" the attachment of optical elements, and the image is no longer will fall on the sensitive matrix.

But the United States and other developed countries are trying to ensure the power of defensive laser weapons at the level of 150 kW with the prospect of increasing it to 300-500 kW or more. However, the consequences of the appearance of laser weapons of such power are already completely different. история.

conclusions


Compact laser weapons with a power of 5-50 kW or more can have a significant impact on the appearance of promising weapons and the battlefield as a whole. Laser weapons will not be able to replace "classical" weapons, but, by complementing defensive and offensive systems, lead to a significant decrease in efficiency or even the rejection of a significant number of existing weapons models using homing heads in the optical and / or thermal wavelength ranges, which, in its turn, will lead to the emergence of new types of weapons and a change in the tactics of armed struggle.
Author:
Photos used:
vpk.name, nevskii-bastion.ru, topwar.ru, fizmathim.com, freepatent.ru
Articles from this series:
Laser weapons: technology, history, status, prospects. Part of 1
Laser weapons: prospects in the air force. Part of 2
Laser weapons: ground forces and air defense. Part of 3
Laser weapons: navy. Part of 4
Resist light: protection from laser weapons. Part of 5
Laser weapons on combat aircraft. Is it possible to resist him?
2050 year combat aircraft concept and weapons based on new physical principles
Secrets of the Peresvet complex: how the Russian laser sword works?
Aviation performance of the Peresvet combat laser system: carriers, targets, tactics of application
At the border of two environments. Why is the US Navy a combat laser for a Virginia-type nuclear submarine and is Peresvet needed for a Laika project nuclear submarine?
93 comments
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  1. Alexey Sommer
    Alexey Sommer 21 July 2020 05: 17 New
    22
    Hi!
    Good article ... could be. But only instead of really analyzing the emerging and dying types of weapons in the near future, as the author stated at the beginning of the article, he slipped to the issue of today's and maybe even yesterday's confrontation between the laser and the homing heads.
    An article on this turned out, as they say, "swing for 100 rubles, blow for 3 kopecks."
    1. Ka-52
      Ka-52 21 July 2020 09: 07 New
      +3
      Good article ... could be.

      you know ... I am grateful to Andrey at least for an attempt at a balanced analysis of the capabilities of combat laser systems. And then it became fashionable about them to write such nonsense that J. Lucas is resting.
    2. Private-K
      Private-K 22 July 2020 09: 58 New
      0
      Quote: Alexey Sommer
      as they say "swing for 100 rubles, blow for 3 kopecks."

      The author just hit another ball. hi
  2. Thrifty
    Thrifty 21 July 2020 05: 27 New
    +7
    And I plan to put a laser with a pulse output of 30 megawatts on my starship, as soon as I have my own starship, and a laser of the power I need is created. ... lol As in my pioneer detachment there was a motto, "romantic, dreamer, science fiction writer, he will not be offended"! By the way, to this mmmmm. ... the article is also acceptable! A laser with a power of 150 kW, how easy it is to scatter figures, and beyond fifty kW many large companies cannot go, because there are a lot of unresolved problems! But, most importantly, to dream, this is not forbidden. ..
    1. The leader of the Redskins
      The leader of the Redskins 21 July 2020 06: 39 New
      +3
      I will outbid your technology for a few cosmoshillings ... I just lack such a laser on my battle couch! Tired, do you know, to maneuver on it when evil minusers are pressing!))) laughing
      Good morning)
    2. Doctor
      Doctor 21 July 2020 07: 00 New
      14
      As in my pioneer detachment there was a motto, "romantic, dreamer, science fiction writer, he will not be offended"!

      What would you say to your pioneer leader if he said that in 40 years you will have a phone in your pocket by which you could contact a person anywhere in the world from anywhere in the world and not only by voice, but also by video and just typing letters?
      And this phone would also have a camera more abruptly than Zenit, a movie camera, several tens of thousands of programs from a calculator and a book reader, to a mobile bank and a navigator.
      And this phone can also connect you to the worldwide information network, and there it is ... fellow
      That the pioneer only dreamed at night. laughing
      1. KCA
        KCA 21 July 2020 07: 42 New
        +6
        Please name a phone with a camera abruptly than "Zenith", never a camera in a mobile will be comparable to a camera with optics, physics can not be fooled, and with lasers, the IL-76 APU produces 235kW, which generator will give out almost 10 times more? And the efficiency of the laser is not 100% at all, no more than 30, which means that a 2mW generator is needed to obtain 6mW radiation.
        1. Doctor
          Doctor 21 July 2020 07: 54 New
          +4
          Please name a phone with a camera abruptly than "Zenith", never a camera in a mobile will be comparable to a camera with optics, physics can not be fooled, and with lasers, the IL-76 APU produces 235kW, which generator will give out almost 10 times more? And the efficiency of the laser is not 100% at all, no more than 30, which means that a 2mW generator is needed to obtain 6mW radiation.

          In physics I agree completely, in the photo - in part. The smartphone solves the majority of household photo tasks, many models of cameras have already died out, although the long-focus lens is still indispensable. But who knows, suddenly magnetic lenses will appear? wink
          About kilowatts not special, here you have the cards in hand

          However, the question is more global. While Izhmash is designing body kits for AK, the Black Hornet 3 mini-drone is being discussed in the next branch.
          1. Aviator_
            Aviator_ 21 July 2020 08: 36 New
            +6
            But who knows, suddenly magnetic lenses will appear?

            Magnetic lenses are 100 years old at lunchtime - a magnetic focusing system was used in television picture tubes, I'm not talking about electron microscopes.
        2. Shopping
          21 July 2020 08: 30 New
          +7
          Quote: KCA
          Please name a phone with a camera more abruptly than "Zenith", never a camera in a mobile will be comparable to a camera with optics, physics cannot be fooled,


          Almost any modern from the top segment. I found both the period of photography on film and modern digital cameras. So, all the photos taken in the USSR on amateur cameras are inferior to modern ones taken on smartphones.

          And physics should not be deceived, it is necessary to study, then technologies change - flat lenses with better characteristics than ordinary ones, substances with a negative angle of refraction, supersensitive matrices and much more that was previously considered impossible.

          Quote: KCA
          so with lasers, the APU on the IL-76 produces 235kW, which generator will give out almost 10 times more?


          1 MW - https://www.jcbgenerators.ru/catalog/dizelnyy-generator-1000-kvt-g1380spe5.html
          Dimensions 5178 x 2080 x 2569 mm, weight 10 tons

          1,8 MW - https://www.jcbgenerators.ru/catalog/dizelnyy-generator-1800-kvt-g2500scu5.html
          Dimensions 5931 x 2168 x 2917 mm, weight 15 tons

          Will it fit into the IL-76? And these are civilian products for free sale.

          The military can put a generator to drive a turbine, just as long as there was no need for such power.

          In addition, it is not necessary to carry the generator at full power, there may be a buffer for 5 minutes of laser operation, then it must be recharged.

          Quote: KCA
          And the efficiency of the laser is not 100% at all, no more than 30, which means that a 2mW generator is needed to obtain 6mW radiation.


          Basically, for now, yes, but they come out by 40-50%, presumably up to 70% can be obtained with disk solid-state lasers.
          1. rocket757
            rocket757 21 July 2020 08: 57 New
            +1
            Quote: AVM
            In addition, it is not necessary to carry the generator at full power, there may be a buffer for 5 minutes of laser operation, then it must be recharged.

            You were in a hurry. Any POWERFUL buffer for 5 minutes of operation is WEIGHT, DIMENSIONS, more than a generator .... so far. It is easier to generate energy than to store it.
            1. Shopping
              21 July 2020 09: 06 New
              +1
              Quote: rocket757
              Quote: AVM
              In addition, it is not necessary to carry the generator at full power, there may be a buffer for 5 minutes of laser operation, then it must be recharged.

              You were in a hurry. Any POWERFUL buffer for 5 minutes of operation is WEIGHT, DIMENSIONS, more than a generator .... so far. It is easier to generate energy than to store it.


              Tesla Model S has an 85 kWh battery. it weighs about 540 kg, and its parameters are 210 cm long, 150 cm wide and 15 cm thick.



              Ten of these are 0,85 MW * h - 5,4 tons, package 2100 * 1500 * 1500 twenty - 1,7 MW * h - 10,8 tons, package 2100 * 1500 * 3000. This, of course, is approximately, but it gives an idea of ​​the dimensions and orders of power.
              1. KCA
                KCA 21 July 2020 09: 17 New
                +4
                The power delivered is not at all equal to the capacity of the batteries, if a mobile phone has a capacity of 2000mAh, this does not mean that it can give 2 amperes, well, if with a goat only
                1. Shopping
                  21 July 2020 09: 39 New
                  +1
                  Quote: KCA
                  The power delivered is not at all equal to the capacity of the batteries, if a mobile phone has a capacity of 2000mAh, this does not mean that it can give 2 amperes, well, if with a goat only


                  It is clear that there is a certain efficiency, but it is somewhere between 0,7-0,9.
                  1. rocket757
                    rocket757 21 July 2020 10: 33 New
                    +4
                    What efficiency do you indicate? How much energy was spent on a charge, and then "extracted from the battery" ???
                    And what does it give you?
                    You need to "INSTANTLY" get awesome power from an energy source, and here the efficiency of the entire system matters, in total and most importantly, the permissible values ​​of CURRENTS, LOSSES, in various nodes of the entire device ...
                    In general, somewhere in the wrong place ...
                    Are you familiar with energy, electronics, AT ALL, or only TESLA ...
                2. vadimtt
                  vadimtt 21 July 2020 09: 53 New
                  +2
                  Modern lithium batteries give a current of 18C and these are far from record figures.
                  The problem, as always, is in the cooling and the area of ​​the conductors.
                  With megawatts and less than a kilovolt, without superconductivity it is already difficult.
                  1. KCA
                    KCA 21 July 2020 10: 14 New
                    +3
                    Where are they modern lithium batteries? Even super-duper Musk uses 18650 fingers, which are definitely 20 years old, some super-powerful, maybe there is an acc, but no one does them, and the bad experience of "Losharik" hints
                3. Shopping
                  21 July 2020 10: 06 New
                  +2
                  Quote: KCA
                  The power delivered is not at all equal to the capacity of the batteries, if a mobile phone has a capacity of 2000mAh, this does not mean that it can give 2 amperes, well, if with a goat only


                  And in terms of the output power per unit of time, it depends on the assembly of batteries into packages. I am impressed by LiFePo4 batteries - explosion-proof, not afraid of negative temperatures, high charging and discharging currents. There are also supercapacitors.

                  Perhaps the best solution would be some kind of hybrid assembly - a diesel generator + battery + supercapacitor.
                  1. vadimtt
                    vadimtt 21 July 2020 10: 27 New
                    +4
                    Supercapacitors are generally the most promising option. It remains only to increase the energy density by a factor of 100 and the batteries "will become unnecessary." Yes, and the internal combustion engine in transport there too laughing
                  2. VIP
                    VIP 21 July 2020 10: 55 New
                    0
                    Dreaming is not harmful, but useful
                  3. Vadim237
                    Vadim237 24 July 2020 23: 30 New
                    0
                    It is better for superionistors to use one shot, one superionistor recharge per charged one.
                4. rocket757
                  rocket757 21 July 2020 10: 24 New
                  +2
                  A bit wrong. Let's take the standard - 5V, 2000mA hour. For a load of 5 Ohm-1A, 2,5 Ohm-2A, 1 Ohm-5 A .... you can get more current, the so-called. short-circuit current, but there is a limitation, Ohm's law for a complete circuit!
                  From a short circuit, the battery can cuckoo, at a time! Even overload togas, more permissible, will not benefit him!
                  Moreover, for starter batteries, which is typical, very THICK internal jumpers and the same weighted platinum inside !!!
                  THE LAW, the more instant energy it is necessary to receive from a battery, any storage device, the BIGGER and HEAVIER it is!
                5. NIKN
                  NIKN 21 July 2020 12: 16 New
                  +2
                  Supercapacitors can give, and by the way, are lighter than batteries, and are more adapted to fast charging and discharging.
              2. rocket757
                rocket757 21 July 2020 10: 14 New
                0
                Purely MATHEMATICS, PHYSICS, ELECTRICS !!!
                Why is high voltage used everywhere where it is necessary to obtain high power from electrical devices, motors and other things ???
                A simple example .... There is a source of accumulated energy, a battery, you need to get effective power from it, for example, connect a converter to record an electric motor.
                How to connect the batteries to get maximum efficiency, efficiency ???
                Sequential or parallel?
                And try to figure out what problems arise in this or that case ...
                And p.zh.s.t. do not bring in TESLA, there is naked ... consumer goods, design solutions, an order of magnitude lower than in any modern INDUSTRIAL installation.
                1. KCA
                  KCA 21 July 2020 10: 43 New
                  +1
                  I had to deal with industrial UPS, for some reason LiOn was not there, lead-zinc with gel, it would be funny to see an 80 amp UPS with LiOn
                  1. rocket757
                    rocket757 21 July 2020 11: 00 New
                    +1
                    New types of batteries are used where it is justified ...
                    The service life of old, classic batteries reaches 10 - 15 - 20 years !!! The capacity decreases smoothly when used correctly.
                    We have an industrial design UPS with a capacity of up to 12 mW. There are many smaller ones and there are different batteries .... but all POWERFUL, only on "lead"!
                2. Shopping
                  21 July 2020 11: 38 New
                  0
                  Quote: rocket757
                  .
                  And try to figure out what problems arise in this or that case ...
                  And p.zh.s.t. do not bring in TESLA, there is naked ... consumer goods, design solutions, an order of magnitude lower than in any modern INDUSTRIAL installation.


                  That's the point that it is consumer goods, but it is produced in huge quantities and works. When developing military equipment that does not cost consumer goods, the solutions will be different. Somewhere in the articles on the topic (links at the bottom of this article), I threw links to hybrid power supplies the size of a couple of refrigerators specially developed for powering lasers.
                  1. rocket757
                    rocket757 21 July 2020 11: 50 New
                    +1
                    Electro transport is a very likely future!
                    The snag in a single, efficient energy source. Working out or storing accumulated, it doesn't matter, the main thing is EVERYONE is waiting for him!
                    Lasers are also a possible future and the problem is the same, EFFECTIVE, POWERFUL, TRANSPORTABLE energy source.
                    With the increase in the power of the storage ring, the source ... the power and efficiency of the lasers themselves will increase.
                    WAITING FOR WITH !!! scientists, designers work, invent!
          2. KCA
            KCA 21 July 2020 09: 46 New
            +1
            You've probably seen the photos taken only at Smena? Try to enlarge the frames taken on the coolest smartphone, and compare with the frames on the same "Zenith", well, or with a digital SLR, for some reason professional photographers use film and not smartphones, fools, right?
            1. Shopping
              21 July 2020 11: 31 New
              +3
              Quote: KCA
              You've probably seen the photos taken only at Smena? Try to enlarge the frames taken on the coolest smartphone, and compare with the frames on the same "Zenith", well, or with a digital SLR, for some reason professional photographers use film and not smartphones, fools, right?


              So a smartphone and a replacement for "Change". And very few photographers now use film.
              1. Katanikotael
                Katanikotael 21 July 2020 16: 36 New
                0
                not much because the number of users has increased significantly, but at conferences the characteristic clicks do not decrease.
                1. Shopping
                  21 July 2020 16: 38 New
                  +2
                  Quote: Katanikotael
                  ... but at conferences, there are no fewer clicks.


                  Is this not an imitation of sound?
                2. Mirabo
                  Mirabo 21 July 2020 23: 38 New
                  +1
                  Journalists with film cameras? Tell this to any of them - they will start coughing with laughter.
              2. Pavel57
                Pavel57 22 July 2020 13: 58 New
                +2
                The film corresponds to, well, a maximum of 20 mega pixels.
    3. Alekseev
      Alekseev 21 July 2020 07: 08 New
      0
      'The main thing is to dream'
      But when dreaming, the military and designers need to remember that modern effective high-precision weapons are themselves targets, their control systems are very vulnerable to electronic warfare, interference on the battlefield (fires, smoke, dust, etc.), and from conventional weapons, such as damage sights, antennas with shrapnel and small arms
      This means that duplication is urgently needed. Hope for the camera, but don't talk about a simple optical device, strive for "network centrism", but be ready to transmit a signal with Morse code, etc.
    4. VIP
      VIP 21 July 2020 10: 52 New
      +1
      My link was called: "Romantics" and the division: "We were born to make a fairy tale come true"
      To all "cats" 1979 Ardent hello
    5. Private-K
      Private-K 22 July 2020 10: 00 New
      0
      Quote: Thrifty
      and beyond fifty kW many large companies cannot go, because there are a lot of unresolved problems

      Plus, there are problems in extremely high-precision and high-speed (in a limited time) aiming the laser beam at the target.
      IMHO, KAZ for BTT and ships, this is so far the most obvious place for the application of laser combat protective systems.
  3. Tugarin
    Tugarin 21 July 2020 05: 44 New
    24
    Don't cling to the author. Andrey suggested the expected difficulties for the developers of weapons with infrared guidance. Not everyone can look ahead either. Wait and see.
    Thank you for the article.
    1. Alexey Sommer
      Alexey Sommer 21 July 2020 06: 11 New
      +6
      Quote: Tugarin
      Not everyone can look ahead either.

      Here I completely agree with you. Klitschko spoke about this.
      In fact, the article should be called whatever it may be: "Some issues of confrontation between lasers and homing heads." By age, these technologies are approximately equal and in no way are they closing for each other.
      But the question from the title of the article about closing technologies and those technologies that will eventually die out because of this is practically not disclosed in the article.
      ps "Suggest when criticizing." I will try to consider my proposal. hi
  4. Indifferent
    Indifferent 21 July 2020 07: 32 New
    +1
    I don't like this type of article. When there are many words like "apparently", "most likely", "probably" and others are the same, it does not mean that the topic has been worked out. War is a complex and unpredictable thing. But kilowatt lasers are also very expensive and vulnerable. So until there are real clashes between the two sides with high-tech weapons, all these assumptions are fortune-telling on the coffee grounds.
  5. Avior
    Avior 21 July 2020 07: 40 New
    +2
    The idea of ​​energy weapons looks attractive since the War of the Worlds by H.G. Wells.
    Then there was engineer Garin with his hyperboloid
    Then the actual laser was created.
    And to this day, it still turns out to be a real weapon in the troops.
    Now they seem to have found a way out - to combine several beams into one beam, let's see what happens in a real weapon.
    But there is no need to exaggerate the capabilities of the laser in real combat.
    I'm not talking about smoke or fog, although this is an important nuance.
    This means the possibility of his defeat on the battlefield by unmasking signs.
    For example, high power presupposes a large current pulse, which is unmasked by an accompanying powerful emission of an electromagnetic field, which will be determined by the RTP stations.
    Powerful laser radiation is also a unmasking feature.
    Much has been written about the vulnerability of otic and IR seeker to the laser beam.
    But so far, just no one has made rockets that are resistant to laser beams. Take, for example, Harm and replace the GOS with an optical one with a deliberately low-sensitive element - either Initially, or in the form of an additional curtain during laser irradiation, add a heat-resistant refractory body - get a weapon that will be aimed strictly at powerful laser installations, being more protected to their impact than other missiles
    The laser, of course, will have its own areas of application, but, in my opinion, this is not some kind of absolute weapon that covers other technologies.
    1. Shopping
      21 July 2020 08: 18 New
      0
      Quote: Avior
      The idea of ​​energy weapons looks attractive since the War of the Worlds by H.G. Wells.
      Then there was engineer Garin with his hyperboloid
      Then the actual laser was created.
      And to this day, it still turns out to be a real weapon in the troops.


      There is a time for everything, PMSM is just approaching - the next 5-10 years will begin to saturate the battlefield with lasers.

      Quote: Avior
      Now they seem to have found a way out - to combine several beams into one beam, let's see what happens in a real weapon.


      This is not the only point, although it is very important, they learned how to effectively compensate for nonlinear distortions introduced by the atmosphere, high-precision and high-speed drives, powerful computers appeared.

      Quote: Avior
      I'm not talking about smoke or fog, although this is an important nuance.


      Their value is minimal - losses of 15-30% of power are maximum in the worst conditions. Understand that just because something is opaque to your eyes does not mean that it is opaque to a 10-100 kW IR laser.

      Quote: Avior
      This means the possibility of his defeat on the battlefield by unmasking signs.
      For example, high power presupposes a large current pulse, which is unmasked by an accompanying powerful emission of an electromagnetic field, which will be determined by the RTP stations.


      There are no special pulses there, except for a free electron laser. And power sources of such power are actively used (especially when it comes to 10-15 kW, but people in the country have generators for 20-30 kW). On ground and surface equipment, all this is grounded perfectly + Faraday cage, even if there is EM radiation. And in any case, any radar and electronic warfare equipment will give the laser a head start by several orders of magnitude in terms of unmasking radiation.

      Quote: Avior
      Powerful laser radiation is also a unmasking feature.


      Again, not as strong as the EM radiation of radar or electronic warfare equipment with their side lobes. Everything that is actively working is unmasked - the machine gun is tracked by sound, thermal heating, the route can be tracked by the radar, etc. Rocket launch - UV direction finders.

      Quote: Avior
      Much has been written about the vulnerability of otic and IR seeker to the laser beam.
      But so far, just no one has made rockets that are resistant to laser beams. Take, for example, Harm and replace the GOS in it with an optical one with a deliberately unresponsive element-


      Is this even possible? If the 15 kW laser is already the metal of the mine body in flight, it begins to melt. If you make an insensitive GOS, then it will not see anything, they are just made sensitive, this is a fundamental contradiction.

      Quote: Avior
      or Initially, or as an additional shutter during laser irradiation,


      The mechanics do not have time to work, as at the end of the article. Optical shutters have their drawbacks.

      Quote: Avior
      add a heat-resistant refractory body - get a weapon that will be aimed strictly at powerful laser installations, being more protected against their effects than other missiles


      Anti-laser weapons are possible, but this task will not be trivial. The rocket itself must be very stable, which means increased dimensions, reduced maneuverability. And this makes it a simplified target for the air defense system - no one says that there should be one laser in the field, war is a team sport.



      Quote: Avior
      The laser, of course, will have its own areas of application, but, in my opinion, this is not some kind of absolute weapon that covers other technologies.


      I do not claim that lasers are a panacea for everything, but I am sure that they will radically change the appearance of the battlefield.
      1. Avior
        Avior 21 July 2020 08: 45 New
        +2
        There is no problem in knowingly roughening up the GOS, making it sensitive only to powerful laser radiation - by reducing the inlet cross section and filters. The case can also be made refractory and with thermal protection with the same ceramics is technically feasible at today's level. It's just that no one did it, so what was the need. The rocket will be in the irradiation zone for a very limited time
        And you very easily vary the power - 10-100 kW
        Between 10 and 100 is a huge difference, especially considering the input or output.
        1. Shopping
          21 July 2020 08: 55 New
          0
          Quote: Avior
          There is no problem in knowingly roughening up the GOS, making it sensitive only to powerful laser radiation - by reducing the inlet cross section and filters. The case is also made refractory and with thermal protection with the same ceramics is technically solvable at today's level. It's just that no one did it, so what was the need. The rocket will be in the irradiation zone for a very limited time


          If the air defense works in a team, then such a missile will be immediately detected along the trajectory. If a conventional missile either continues its flight along its trajectory or gets lost from it, the anti-laser missile will change its course to the radiation source, which will make it a priority target for the air defense system.

          For aviation, this method is not suitable at all - I discovered the "anti-laser" direction of the missile, turned off the laser and the missile would immediately lose its target. For the fleet, it is possible too (ships are moving).

          Quote: Avior
          And you very easily vary the power - 10-100 kW
          Between 10 and 100 is a huge difference, especially considering the input or output.


          The Americans are already putting 10-18 kW on the armored personnel carrier, but this is rather a "test of the pen". PMSM, given the cost of lasers, they want to go through the 100 kW line and install more universal models with 150 or more kW, which not only the seeker, but also the hull can damage, shoot down missiles and projectiles with all types of seeker and without them. In the previous articles, there is more detail about what capacities have been achieved and are planned.
          1. Avior
            Avior 21 July 2020 09: 10 New
            +2
            The laser seems to be air defense.
            And you need air defense to protect air defense.
            As for the increase in power, there is the problem of focusing the beam of rays
            1. Shopping
              21 July 2020 09: 37 New
              0
              Quote: Avior
              The laser seems to be air defense.
              And you need air defense to protect air defense.


              Air defense is not one complex, in an echeloned air defense system there are short-range, short-range, medium-range, long-range complexes (all this with a bunch of vehicles - communications, loading, radars of different types, control, etc.), electronic warfare, false targets and ... laser.

              As practice shows, non-echeloned air defense is practically useless. The laser is an important element that will help reduce the load on the air defense missile system by screening out ammunition with optical / IR seeker.

              Quote: Avior
              As for the increase in power, there is the problem of focusing the beam of rays


              They are deciding, or have already decided. By the way, for burning out the GOS, it is even better if there is a certain pulsation in the focusing of radiation, then the mirror of the optical filter will be damaged more - over a larger area.

              After all, what's the point so that the powerful radiation does not pass the reflecting mirror must quickly collapse, otherwise the radiation will have time to reach the GOS, and since it quickly collapses, then you can slightly defocus the radiation so that the burn-through area is larger, and after the cessation of exposure, the matrix would not have enough information for re-acquisition of the target.
              1. Avior
                Avior 21 July 2020 10: 04 New
                0
                Everything has been invented for a long time and is done very simply - in an opaque and heat-resistant material, make a tiny hole and then the lens - the luminous flux per unit area decreases to the required value. This is how the lens in the camera and the human pupil work.
                So, technically, it is not difficult to make an anti-laser seeker, just no one did it.
                It is also possible to protect the seeker from the laser by reducing the field of view - to put it into the pipe simply.
                Nobody did anything like that, because there are simply no laser weapons yet
      2. KCA
        KCA 21 July 2020 10: 07 New
        0
        In the distant Soviet childhood, I read Leonov's book, so back in those years there were helmets with light protection, which instantly reduced the light flux, I think progress since then has slightly advanced light protection
        1. Avior
          Avior 21 July 2020 11: 35 New
          +1
          Now this is on inexpensive Shirpotrebovsky welding masks.
        2. Shopping
          22 July 2020 07: 54 New
          0
          Quote: KCA
          In the distant Soviet childhood, I read Leonov's book, so back in those years there were helmets with light protection, which instantly reduced the light flux, I think progress since then has slightly advanced light protection


          If you mean substances with nonlinear transmission of radiation from power, then about them is written at the end of the article. The disadvantage - a large response inertia and limited heat capacity - quickly fail when overheated. For protection against weak powers only.
  6. 2 Level Advisor
    2 Level Advisor 21 July 2020 07: 46 New
    +1
    no one argues .. someday powerful combat lasers will appear .. if something else is not invented faster .. but, for example, the oppressive influence of the atmosphere, fog or smoke on them, you can't solve it .. with a projectile this does not happen, the projectile is reliable ) so that, in the foreseeable future, these will be additional systems and most likely defensive ones, no more, and in no way a replacement for classic modern weapons ..
  7. silberwolf88
    silberwolf88 21 July 2020 08: 09 New
    0
    article well, so an attempt to talk about the topic ... with an unpleasant aftertaste from the thought that it is dedicated (conceived) exclusively to reduce the market potential of Russian weapons)))
    if it's really serious ... striking energy facilities of a potential enemy will make you remember about candles ... and leave fuel only for engines (well, God forbid, there will only be an electric tank) and kinetic weapons will be quite appropriate for themselves ... for now ... energy does not appear in large quantities and anywhere it is the most vulnerable part on it and you need to beat ... and all innovations will end ... let's move on to the slogan ... laser is a fool ... bayonet is great))
    1. Shopping
      21 July 2020 08: 45 New
      0
      Quote: silberwolf88
      article well, so an attempt to talk about the topic ... with an unpleasant aftertaste from the thought that it is dedicated (conceived) exclusively to reduce the market potential of Russian weapons)))


      Unfortunately, Russia is in many ways lagging behind in armaments with the IC GOS. We do not have such perfect matrices as the United States.

      The article is rather about the fact that in the near future it may not be as critical as it is now. The main thing is that such lasers, for defense against ammunition with optical / IR seeker, appeared with us, and it did not work out that the enemy had a lot of missiles with optical / IR seeker, and lasers, and we have very few of the former (and the enemy knocks them down with lasers , and the second is not, since the development of tactical lasers in the Russian Federation is not yet particularly heard.
  8. Clueless
    Clueless 21 July 2020 08: 10 New
    +1
    Forget about lasers already, because as soon as there are a lot of them being introduced, the countermeasures will appear instantly. For calculating where the laser beam is coming from is elementary, and this "beam carrier" will receive a projectile or a rocket.
    If lasers will be used, then only as sets of various air defense systems, but not as offensive weapons.
    1. Shopping
      21 July 2020 08: 41 New
      0
      Quote: Bad
      Forget about lasers already, because as soon as there are a lot of them being introduced, the countermeasures will appear instantly. For calculating where the laser beam is coming from is elementary, and this "beam carrier" will receive a projectile or a rocket.


      No easier than radar or electronic warfare.

      Quote: Bad
      If lasers will be used, then only as sets of various air defense systems, but not as offensive weapons.


      And what did I write about?
  9. Hey
    Hey 21 July 2020 09: 00 New
    +1
    And how will the laser fight over-the-horizon targets, in ravines, forests, mountains?
    Throw from behind a hillock or a hole to him various simple cast iron with TNT and then let him puff.
    1. Shopping
      22 July 2020 07: 52 New
      0
      Quote: MUD
      And how will the laser fight over-the-horizon targets, in ravines, forests, mountains?
      Throw from behind a hillock or a hole to him various simple cast iron with TNT and then let him puff.


      And how do tanks, machine guns, ATGMs fight over-the-horizon targets? Each type of weapon has its own purpose.
      1. Vadim237
        Vadim237 24 July 2020 23: 35 New
        0
        Somehow you will make an article about beam weapons.
  10. Operator
    Operator 21 July 2020 10: 29 New
    0
    Laser weapons in the conditions of ground / surface combat operations are applicable only to intercept UAVs in good weather conditions. For other weather conditions, radar-guided anti-aircraft missiles are needed.

    The priority area of ​​application of lasers is airless space. That is why the world's most powerful combat laser "Peresvet" is sharpened to illuminate / burn out the sensors of enemy optical reconnaissance satellites over the basing areas of Russian PGRK.
    1. agond
      agond 21 July 2020 10: 51 New
      0
      But what if the optical homing head has a very narrow field of view, for example, a long obscura camera in the form of a pipe, a small matrix is ​​installed on the far end of the pipe and on the long one, to hit the matrix it is necessary to fulfill the laser condition, the hole in the obscura and the matrix are on the same line, error in degree and ...?.
      1. Operator
        Operator 21 July 2020 11: 03 New
        -1
        No problem: the observation spot of the optical reconnaissance satellite behind the PGRK is about 50 km, we put Peresvet on the Il-76, we fly into the observation spot at the moment the satellite passes over our territory and voila - we burn out the optical matrix, and the satellite optics will only help in this operation ...
        1. Avior
          Avior 21 July 2020 11: 37 New
          +1
          How do you define this spot? And if it is directed slightly to the side?
          1. Operator
            Operator 21 July 2020 12: 41 New
            -2
            The slick moves exactly along the projection of the flight path of the optical reconnaissance satellite on the earth's surface. The spot size of 50 km allows you not to bother too much with the positioning of the Il-76.
            1. Avior
              Avior 21 July 2020 12: 50 New
              +1
              And if the enemies change, so it will not be exactly perpendicular?
              1. Operator
                Operator 21 July 2020 12: 54 New
                -2
                When optical scanning of the earth's surface with forest cover (the area where the PGRK is based) at an oblique angle, the PGRK is not visible.
                1. Avior
                  Avior 21 July 2020 13: 07 New
                  0
                  Crowns of trees, camouflage nets ...
                  1. Operator
                    Operator 21 July 2020 13: 59 New
                    -1
                    ... laser illumination.
                    1. Avior
                      Avior 21 July 2020 14: 26 New
                      0
                      Filters ...
                      1. Operator
                        Operator 21 July 2020 16: 50 New
                        0
                        And what, there are such filters through which the PGRK is visible, but the laser does not pierce them? laughing

                        That is the meaning of "Peresvet" - or the optical reconnaissance satellite self-blinds (closes the lens) on approach to the PGRK positioning area or the satellite forcibly burn the matrix with a laser.
  11. Lynx2000
    Lynx2000 21 July 2020 11: 27 New
    0
    what
    I studied the article, the subconscious conclusion: humanity is developing exponentially objects and methods of destroying their own kind.
    Of course, not trade is the engine of progress, but war.
    What did Einstein say there? I don't know how and with what weapon the third world war will be fought, but I can say for sure that in the fourth world war, people will fight with sticks and stones.
  12. pytar
    pytar 21 July 2020 12: 22 New
    -1
    Good stat! good Affects a little-known topic! Respect to the author! hi
  13. Nikolaevich I
    Nikolaevich I 21 July 2020 12: 32 New
    +1
    Author-LittleDets! TrenDets, how little he left time for the optical seeker to "live"! And one more beauty - the conclusion in the article, like a pile of "Old Mariinsk" balm in a cup of mediocre coffee ... (!) - this is the slogan: "Back to the future!" ... This is a "call" (or, a promise ... ) to the return of the "2nd generation"! Guidance by wires, radio commands, laser and radio beams! How happy the dudes protesting against the "3rd generation" and clinging to the already existing "2nd generation" will be delighted! Russia will not even need to rearm! Yeeeessss! Of course, some boring and harmful in nature, tovarischi will hastily remind you that "every creature has a pair!" ... that is, for every "cunning" nut there is, nevertheless, a "universal" bolt! And the Author rightly showed us "Lenin's theses" on overcoming problems! For which he is greatly grateful from all progressive humanity! And in fact ... "to trend - not to load bags ..."! It's easy to say that lasers will burn everything ... harder to do! For example, I have long been advocating for a new COEC with a laser emitter against the "javelins", but so far there is no such COEC! It can be the same with other promises ...! Yes, and there are countermeasures, and new ones will be found (!): Heat-resistant coatings, rotating ammunition, aerosol generators, a sharp increase in flight speed, vigorously maneuvering ammunition. Distributed (!) Guidance systems can be attributed to relatively new methods! This is when there are different types, for example, seeker, but not in one unit, but distributed throughout the body. Ammunition! In this case, there may be only an infrared or semi-active laser seeker, but at three points of the rocket body ... ("head", middle, "tail" parts of the body ...) ..... plus a high flight speed of the ammunition! To disable such a homing system "at once", you will need up to 3 lasers! And so that the thief is not tempted by the "sequential method", then for this, a high flight speed + maneuvering with the help of the DPU! It is possible to overload the enemy "laser" air defense with a swarm of missiles, when a "real" missile is hidden among simple and cheap satellite missiles, guided by a leader missile (a "real" missile ...) Such guidance systems (homing) are little "covered" in print, as radiometric ...
    But the guidance systems "2 generations" can give "the last hundredth concert of Alla Pugacheva"! Here to the Author a hot kiss from Brezhnev! You can recall the American experience! After all, the Americans, before acquiring GPS systems, seriously considered others! For example, "differential rangefinder" (radio command ...)! The advantage of such systems is acceptable guidance accuracy + low cost (relative ...) performance! "Automatism" of guidance was carried out according to the Russian concept of "3 generations ... (the concept of" technical vision ")! Therefore, if the Americans had not thought of GPS, then it is possible that now the US bombs and missiles would be massively equipped ... or active millimeter-wave radar seeker (they had such an intention ...), or "differential rangefinder" guidance systems! In such a situation, the Russian idea of ​​"technical vision" ("homing") for laser-beam and radio command (such as "Storm" ...) guidance systems ...
    In general, the Author ..... "Write, sir ... write! We are bored without you!" Seriously, no fools! yes hi
    1. Shopping
      21 July 2020 16: 51 New
      +1
      Quote: Nikolaevich I
      Author-LittleDets! TrenDets, how little he left time for the optical seeker to "live"! And one more beauty - the conclusion in the article, like a pile of "Old Mariinsk" balm in a cup of mediocre coffee ... (!) - this is the slogan: "Back to the future!" ... This is a "call" (or, a promise ... ) to the return of the "2nd generation"! Guidance by wires, radio commands, laser and radio beams!


      Not really, there are simply other solutions for ATGMs, we will talk about them sometime.

      Quote: Nikolaevich I
      It's easy to say that lasers will burn everything ... harder to do! For example, I have long been advocating for a new COEC with a laser emitter against the "javelins", but so far there is no such COEC! It can be the same with other promises ...!


      Apparently, we do not have any special advances in the class of tactical lasers, and Peresvet is so mysterious that either it is a breakthrough technology, for example, a nuclear-pumped laser, or a gas-dynamic / chemical laser that is ancient like mammoth shit.

      Quote: Nikolaevich I
      Yes, and there are countermeasures, and new ones will be found (!): Heat-resistant coatings, rotating ammunition, aerosol generators, a sharp increase in flight speed, vigorously maneuvering ammunition. Distributed (!) Guidance systems can be attributed to relatively new methods! This is when there are different types, for example, seeker, but not in one unit, but distributed throughout the body. Ammunition! In this case, there may be only an infrared or semi-active laser seeker, but at three points of the rocket body ... ("head", middle, "tail" parts of the body ...) ..... plus a high flight speed of the ammunition! :


      - heat-resistant coatings - everything is not easy there, you need a package made of a combination of materials or an ablative coating - all this is weight, volume and price;
      - rotating ammunition - won't help;
      - aerosol generators - not for protection from a laser, especially on a small-sized high-speed object - everything will blow away at the moment;
      - a sharp increase in flight speed will help, but go ahead and implement it, so everyone would do it;
      - vigorously maneuvering ammunition - will not help, it will always be easier to follow the laser beam than to maneuver a "material" object + loss of speed when maneuvering.
      - distributed (!) guidance systems, yes, but this is not for Javelin-type ATGMs, and their communication can be jammed with electronic warfare.

      Quote: Nikolaevich I
      It is possible to overload the enemy "laser" air defense with a swarm of missiles, when a "real" missile is hidden among simple and cheap satellite missiles, guided by a leader missile (a "real" missile ...)


      They won't be cheap if they have control and communication. Well, electronic warfare.
      1. Nikolaevich I
        Nikolaevich I 21 July 2020 23: 32 New
        0
        Hello, Andrey! hi Well, let's start point by point?
        Quote: AVM
        Not really, there are simply other solutions for ATGMs, we will talk about them sometime.

        I have no doubt that there are others ... A well-known ATGM designer, Nadiradze, in my opinion, thought so too .... he even tried to use telepathy!
        Quote: AVM
        Apparently, we do not have any special advances in the class of tactical lasers, and Peresvet is so mysterious that either it is a breakthrough technology, for example, a nuclear-pumped laser, or a gas-dynamic / chemical laser that is ancient like mammoth shit.

        But where can we take mastodons as an example !? Not until "Peresvet"! Well, we don't have tactical "laser guns", but not without lasers in Russia! Rangefinders, target designators, even locators in the "space sphere" ...! Something can be built on this "base"! Moreover, the task can be formulated in such a way that it is not necessary to shoot down, it is not necessary to burn the GOS, but it is enough to "blind" the GOS! You can create a COEP with a laser emitter in 2 stages ... At the first stage, in the COEP, use imported laser emitters (yes, at least, Chinese!) ... (Many countries that have any kind of military production use imported components in their products! This is world practice!) At the second stage, start producing your own emitters! Not by washing, so by rolling, but problems can be solved!

        Quote: AVM
        aerosol generators - not for protection from a laser, especially on a small-sized high-speed facility - everything will blow away at the moment;

        - vigorously maneuvering ammunition will not help, it will always be easier to follow a laser beam than to maneuver a "material" object + loss of speed when maneuvering ..

        Well, heat-resistant coatings and rotating ammunition are mentioned "to the pile", as they are often used in various articles ... As for "aerosol generators" and maneuvering, the question may be more difficult than you might think "in the first second"! Maneuvering with the aid of the DPU (DPT) is a different story compared to maneuvering with aerodynamic rudders! The "aerosol generator" can be a jet "leader" separating from the launch vehicle and exploding at some distance from the launch vehicle! At the moment of explosion of the aerosol-forming "leader" there is a "jump-like" maneuvering of the ammunition! It should not be forgotten that the laser "gun" is guided (!) By another device ...: a radar, a thermal imager, a UV detector ... you can influence them and take into account their "inertia"!

        Quote: AVM
        They won't be cheap if they have control and communication. Well, electronic warfare.

        And what is: expensive, cheap? Everything is comparative, relative! Well, for a "penny", you probably won't be able to do it ... but if the "defender" will cost an order of magnitude cheaper than his "master", then you should think about it!
  14. Knell wardenheart
    Knell wardenheart 21 July 2020 12: 49 New
    0
    Wouldn't deepening the sensing element into a heat-resistant tube of ten to fifteen centimeters solve the problem, at least partially? As far as I understand now, all these LR-elements are located on the equipment piece by piece in the upper part, which allows work only at certain angles - in turn, reducing the likelihood of hitting the sensitive element at these angles (until the moment of a single-point approach to the target along the edge) - we would reduce the risks indicated in the article.
    It is also possible to partially solve the problem at the software level (as far as I understand) - by working with the algorithms of such ammunition, and asking them, in case of sensor blinding, to continue flying in the desired direction, taking into account the data on the target speed available at that time.
    1. Shopping
      22 July 2020 07: 59 New
      +2
      Quote: Knell Wardenheart
      Wouldn't deepening the sensing element into a heat-resistant tube of ten to fifteen centimeters solve the problem, at least partially? As far as I understand now, all these LR-elements are located on the equipment piece by piece in the upper part, which allows work only at certain angles - in turn, reducing the likelihood of hitting the sensitive element at these angles (until the moment of a single-point approach to the target along the edge) - we would reduce the risks indicated in the article.


      By installing the seeker into the tube, we will greatly reduce the field of view, the probability of target detection will decrease, and the probability of loss during maneuvers will increase.

      Quote: Knell Wardenheart
      It is also possible to partially solve the problem at the software level (as far as I understand) - by working with the algorithms of such ammunition, and asking them, in case of sensor blinding, to continue flying in the desired direction, taking into account the data on the target speed available at that time.


      Only if the target is stationary. Optical / IR seeker is best against moving targets. Immobile ones can be "finished off" with an inertial guidance system, or GLONASS with guidance, if not muffled.
  15. ycuce234-san
    ycuce234-san 21 July 2020 16: 48 New
    0
    It is one thing for a second to withstand a pulse or a series of laser pulses with a power of 50-100 W, focused to a point with a diameter of 0,1 mm, another thing is the effect of continuous or quasi-continuous laser radiation with a power of 5-50 kW or more, focused into a point with a diameter of about 1 cm, within 3-5 seconds.


    You do not need to withstand anything, but you need to let the optosensor burn through, which must be rough and clumsy enough to work for a long time before burning. A powerful laser will itself bring the ammunition to itself - it is enough to simply measure the gradients of directions and changes in the temperature fields on a pack of ceramic thermistors behind a burnt-out optosensor - for the car this is all a "signal". If the rough optosensor is burned out, it means that the laser is close, and therefore the required targeting accuracy to hit it is low - turn the projectile a little.
    1. Shopping
      27 July 2020 09: 31 New
      0
      Quote: ycuce234-san
      It is one thing for a second to withstand a pulse or a series of laser pulses with a power of 50-100 W, focused to a point with a diameter of 0,1 mm, another thing is the effect of continuous or quasi-continuous laser radiation with a power of 5-50 kW or more, focused into a point with a diameter of about 1 cm, within 3-5 seconds.


      You do not need to withstand anything, but you need to let the optosensor burn through, which must be rough and clumsy enough to work for a long time before burning. A powerful laser will itself bring the ammunition to itself - it is enough to simply measure the gradients of directions and changes in the temperature fields on a pack of ceramic thermistors behind a burnt-out optosensor - for the car this is all a "signal". If the rough optosensor is burned out, it means that the laser is close, and therefore the required targeting accuracy to hit it is low - turn the projectile a little.


      If the optosensor is "rough", it will not see anything. The whole point of a sensitive sensor is in its "sensitivity". It is for her that the developers are fighting, so that the probability of target detection and recognition can be increased. Try to "coarse" the human eye - here either see, but they can blind, or they cannot blind, but you will not see anything either.

      As for aiming at a powerful laser beam, then in theory such a sensor can probably be made. But here's the question:
      If the optosensor burns out, and it definitely burns out from lasers with a power of 5-15 kW, then there will be no point in "heating" the target with a laser, and the laser will be transferred to another target - for example, 5 seconds per ammunition. Having neither an optosensor, nor a laser to aim at the radiation source, the target will fly into the "milk". Of course, you can fly by inertia or by GPS, but this is only for stationary objects, and for them the optosensor is not critical anyway. We are talking about moving objects.
      1. ycuce234-san
        ycuce234-san 27 July 2020 11: 19 New
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        Having neither an optosensor, nor a laser to aim at the radiation source, the target will fly into the "milk". Of course, you can fly by inertia or by GPS

        No need to suffer, you can make the sensor "three-stage" - the first stage is an ordinary inexpensive CCD-matrix for a target without a laser, the second is a coarse optical sensor and the third is thermistors.
        The brightness of ordinary low-power lasers is very high, military lasers are even higher ("Verification of the brightness of lasers" T.H. Braid, A De Volpu, KL Hercegtberg ~ JR Ringo, JS Stanford). They are so bright that even photoresistors will do for the second stage. Just in case, you can put a little more smoke-forming agent together with the sensors - for example, polyethylene, to form soot and soot - to reduce the effects of radiation and an evaporating agent for heat transfer, such as paraffin, which is also an electrical insulator and does not allow excessive overheating of the second and third stage - heat until the metal of the conductors softens. The insulation should be heat-resistant - various enamels, silicone coatings and fiberglass braids.
        In an extreme case, you can make the sensor completely different in design - make the head of the rocket from a ceramic container (literally, a Babylonian pot) filled with glass wool impregnated with a combination of a smoke generator and a heat-carrying agent, and pass a series of heat-resistant optical fibers through it, supplying light to the sensors in the stern ... No matter how hard the laser tries, too much light will still not get into the thin, high-temperature, heat-resistant fiber.
  16. Basarev
    Basarev 21 July 2020 19: 05 New
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    It will be especially noticeable on ships: missiles will drastically lose their effectiveness and even the most drunken leavened ones will understand that the anti-ship missiles are no longer a wunderwaffe. I foresee that large caliber guns may be reborn as the main weapon of ships and, as a response to their prohibitive penetration, armor. The battleships will return.
  17. BAI
    BAI 21 July 2020 21: 34 New
    +1
    actually buried the projects of high-speed high-altitude bombers developed in the United States and the USSR at the height of the Cold War.

    Does the Tu-160 know about this?
    And in principle, so on any question (any topic). A new weapon appears - the old one is being improved to take compensatory measures. Are the bows gone? In a number of limited, specialized cases, they are used. The dagger has mutated into a bayonet-knife and is not going to disappear.
    1. Shopping
      22 July 2020 07: 50 New
      0
      Quote: BAI
      actually buried the projects of high-speed high-altitude bombers developed in the United States and the USSR at the height of the Cold War.

      Does the Tu-160 know about this?


      Don't compare Tu-160 and T-4 or Valkyrie. These were the projects of ultimatum bombers - titanium, speed above 3M.

      Quote: BAI
      And in principle, so on any question (any topic). A new weapon appears - the old one is being improved to take compensatory measures. Are the bows gone? In a number of limited, specialized cases, they are used. The dagger has mutated into a bayonet-knife and is not going to disappear.


      Well, there are bayonet knives, but how often are they used? I generally keep quiet about bows. We are talking about what they are really fighting with, which affects the nature of hostilities.
      1. agond
        agond 22 July 2020 14: 49 New
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        However, if the laser installation has mirrors inside it, because it is necessary to somehow deflect the beam and these mirrors can withstand heating, then obviously the mirror at the other end of the beam can withstand heating and in the shadow of such a mirror there can be a matrix, of course the mirror will shorten the view, but the matrix will intact.
        1. Shopping
          22 July 2020 15: 19 New
          0
          Quote: agond
          However, if the laser installation has mirrors inside it, because it is necessary to somehow deflect the beam and these mirrors can withstand heating, then obviously the mirror at the other end of the beam can withstand heating and in the shadow of such a mirror there can be a matrix, of course the mirror will shorten the view, but the matrix will intact.


          In the sense of "in the shade"? Light falls on the optical / IR seeker, from which it receives an image of the target. If you close it with a mirror, then the light will not fall. If the mirror is made semitransparent, then the matrix will not see anything, and such a mirror will not save from a powerful laser.
  18. Pavel Patrashov
    Pavel Patrashov 24 July 2020 12: 51 New
    0
    everything mixed ..., horses, people, guns, laser, ...
  19. Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 26 July 2020 09: 21 New
    0
    In order for the Laser to become such a total threat, the Laser itself and its guidance systems have to go a long way and it is not known when this will happen and whether it will happen so totally at all! It's one thing to protect a ship, another to defend a tank, a third plane .... everywhere there are a lot of difficult obstacles to overcome.
  20. shinobi
    shinobi 27 July 2020 01: 30 New
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    The disadvantage of lasers lies in their own merits. Beam narrowness. Each ammunition must be guided personally, in fact, the laser itself can become a guidance source, as is the case in anti-radar missiles.
    1. Shopping
      27 July 2020 09: 37 New
      0
      Quote: shinobi
      The disadvantage of lasers lies in their own merits. Beam narrowness. Each ammunition must be guided personally, in fact, the laser itself can become a guidance source, as is the case in anti-radar missiles.


      We consider moving targets, after practicing the attacking ammunition, they will turn off the laser or transfer it to another attacking ammunition, and the "blinded" projectile will not hit the target that has changed its location.
      1. shinobi
        shinobi 27 July 2020 10: 50 New
        0
        It's that simple? Fiber-optic lasers for 0,1-1 kW (enough to burn the matrix for the eyes) the size of a laptop have a place to be about 30 years ago. Where are they? Diode lasers, industrial power (10-100 kW) will be larger and younger, are actively exploited Since the mid-90s. And they eat not to say that much. The standard factory network for 380 V is enough for the eyes. Where is all this abundance? The inertness of the military? I don't think so.
        1. Shopping
          27 July 2020 16: 47 New
          0
          Quote: shinobi
          It's that simple? Fiber-optic lasers for 0,1-1 kW (enough to burn the matrix for the eyes) the size of a laptop have a place to be about 30 years ago. Where are they? Diode lasers, industrial power (10-100 kW) will be larger and younger, are actively exploited Since the mid-90s. And they eat not to say that much. The standard factory network for 380 V is enough for the eyes. Where is all this abundance? The inertness of the military? I don't think so.


          There is a big difference between an industrial laser and a military one. Industrial ones work at a distance of several centimeters, while the military needs kilometers, and this imposes requirements on the beam and on the compensation of nonlinear distortions. And the dimensions of industrial lasers of the 90s were still too big.

          Diode lasers of such power (10-100 kSt) did not exist then, and they still do not. But now there are solid-state ones, incl. fiber, diode-pumped.
          1. agond
            agond 27 July 2020 21: 23 New
            0
            You can roughly estimate if the head of the rocket is made in the form of a cone with a diameter of 50 cm and there is a 1 mm hole in the tip of the cone, and inside the cone at a distance of 50 cm from the hole 10 pieces of matrices measuring 10x10 mm are staggered at a distance of 10 cm from each other, then for the laser beam to hit one of the matrices, at least the cone must be precisely oriented to the light source, but the rocket does not have to hit the laser itself, which can stand on a ship 150 m long, then more than one laser will have to be put on the ship.
            1. shinobi
              shinobi 29 July 2020 06: 41 New
              0
              Exactly, comrade. They pointed to the very point. If everything were simple, they would have been running across Mars with laser trellises for a long time.
  21. Maks1995
    Maks1995 26 August 2020 09: 16 New
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    In principle, it is clear that weapons are gradually being modernized and changed all the time.
    Well, they will shoot at the tank not with one jewel, but 2-3. And they will write it down in the instructions.

    So it has been prescribed to shoot more than one missile at ships, allegedly, for a long time, one of them gets lost for sure ...