Military Review

At the cutting edge of the underwater confrontation. Cold War Submarine

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At the cutting edge of the underwater confrontation. Cold War Submarine

The Americans are sincerely convinced that the success of their submarines in the confrontation with the USSR Navy became the determining factor in the success of the US Navy as a whole, and the success of the US Navy contributed to the surrender of Gorbachev to the West. According to John Lehman, US Secretary of Navy at Reagan, during a meeting in Malta, Gorbachev upset Reagan:


“We are surrounded by your fleet».

Here you need to understand that, through foreign intelligence, the highest political and military leadership received real and objective information on the superiority of the submarine forces of the United States Navy.

What is the saddest thing? The situation was not hopeless, we could effectively counteract the Americans (if we mean purely military considerations, and not the economy, which was the main problem).

As a result, the underwater confrontation of the USSR was lost, replacing real achievements with propaganda completely divorced from reality (for example, the alleged success of the search operation “Atrina”). And outright lies, not even to society, but to the highest political leadership in Atrin by the command of the Soviet Navy, is a clear example of this.

The beginning of confrontation


In the early years of the underwater confrontation, diesel-electric submarines played a key role in it (including for the US Navy). While the “military atom” was making its way into the submarine, I had to “fight on batteries”.

The Americans, fearing that German technology entering the USSR would allow increasing the number and quality of the submarine fleet, from the forties actively experimented with various types of sonar equipment that would allow anti-submarine forces to be sent to the enemy boat. It was mainly about stationary hydrophones. In the late forties in the Navy, it became clear that submarines can also act as carriers of effective sonar stations and can be used in PLO. The case was also widely known when the English submarine HMS Venturer destroyed from a submerged position the German U-864 submarine, which was also going under water, on February 9, 1945. The result of the realization of these things was the project "Cayo" - a program to create a submarine that can fight with submarines.


DEPL SSK-1 Barracuda

The Barracuda submarines created as a result of this project were unsuccessful. But understanding the failure with the Barracudas gave rise to a type of submarine that became the legend of the American non-nuclear submarine - submarines of the Teng type.


DEPL type "Teng"

It was the boats of this type that became the first that the Americans began to send en masse to Soviet territorial waters for reconnaissance. Prior to this, there were only one-time trips of the old Tenches without any arrogant antics.

While the atomic Nautilus was used in experimental exercises, the diesel-electric Tengi began to actively develop Soviet coastal waters. Sometimes this led to different incidents.

So, in August 1957, the USS Gudgeon, a boat of this type, was discovered by naval ships near Vladivostok. The result was a 30-hour chase with the use of real depth charges, the boat was not released: according to the results of the chase, she had to emerge.

In early 1958, a similar incident occurred with the USS Wahoo, which Soviet ships also forced to float.

It should be understood that there were much more cases when the Americans were undetected.

From the beginning of the forties to the time of the Caribbean crisis, the number of raids by American submarines to the shores of the USSR exceeded 2000. During one of them, the American diesel-electric submarine USS Harder, type “Teng”, entered Soviet tervodes in 1961, went unnoticed directly into Severomorsk harbor and completed photographing moorings and their ships. The boat went unnoticed.

In the early 60s, the atomic Skipjack entered the Severomorsk raid and half an hour later went unnoticed, and this was the decision of the boat commander, contrary to his orders (he simply “wanted to see” Severomorsk).

In 1975, during a hearing at the Intelligence Committee of the U.S. House of Representatives, it was announced that over the years, American submarines had participated in 110 incidents such as clashes with Soviet submarines or in clashes with USSR anti-submarine forces. As you can see, the statistics are very eloquent.


Figure Rear Admiral V. Lebedko (the collision of K-19 and Getau)

In the 60s, when the Soviet Navy acquired nuclear submarines in significant quantities, the American experience in operations in our waters proved to be very useful for them already in a completely underwater confrontation.

By themselves, the Teng boats belonged to the high-priority Navy programs, including so that future American submariners could train in underwater combat against truly quiet, secretive and effective diesel-electric submarines.

Although the decision that in the future all American submarines will be only atomic, the then commander Arly Burke made back in 1956, the Tengi served for dozens of years after that.

Then, in the fifties, the high noise of the Nautilus compared to the American diesel-electric submarines made the Americans solve another important issue.

Since the USSR Navy expected the widespread use of diesel-electric submarines and since they obviously would have had (in those years) an advantage in stealth over American nuclear submarines, the first torpedo salvo would have been behind them with a high degree of probability. This meant that for the American submarine, the battle would begin with a sudden aimed salvo with torpedoes on it.

In order not only to survive in such a situation, but also to win, it was necessary to avoid defeat. To do this, in the USA, from the beginning of the 50s, studies of unprecedented proportions (we haven’t even done anything close) and experimental exercises with the massive use of various sonar counters were conducted. In general, the problem of the first volley of the United States was completely solved by the end of the 50s and still hold an overwhelming advantage in SRP means.

Note: the advantage in SSPDs that actually existed on ships and submarines, in general, were effective and very worthy of SSPDs in the USSR Navy (for example, the MG-44 self-propelled simulator (SIPL) and the MG-104 self-propelled torpedo launch device), but on the Navy’s carriers there was just a scanty amount, and statistics on their use during combat training was simply insignificant.


SIPL MG-104

By the time Skipjack nuclear-powered submarines appeared, with which the submarine forces of the US Navy had reached a qualitatively new level, the American submarine already had very serious experience in working against submarines and in operations in the areas of domination of Soviet anti-submarine forces.

Soviet sailors had a lot more difficult. For many years, those tasks that were already solved in the USA by atomic submarines, our fleet continued to solve diesel-electric ones. This even applied to nuclear deterrence tasks, which partially solved the Project 629 submarines and their modifications. The conditions in which the sailors of the Soviet missile diesel-electric submarines had to serve directly off the American coast were extremely difficult and very dangerous.

It was during such military service that the K-129 missile submarine that sunk off the Hawaiian Islands died.


Project 629 diesel submarine with ballistic missiles

Nevertheless, these “suicide bombers” of Project 629 made a very big contribution to strategic deterrence, and in those years when the USSR was an order of magnitude behind delivery vehicles, and the US Navy was perceived as a very serious threat.

History with the campaign of diesel submarines to Cuba during the Caribbean crisis, it is also widely known and does not require retelling, as are the conclusions from it.

But still, the main content of the underwater (submarine versus submarine) confrontation was the operation of atomic submarines. And in them, the United States also had an initial technical superiority, largely due to the personality of a single person.

Hyman Rickover and his nuclear fleet


Admiral Hyman Rickover actually became the creator of the US nuclear submarine fleet. Having extensive connections in the political establishment, he actually had powers close to "dictatorial" in "his" submarine fleet.


Hyman Rickover and John Kennedy

According to the memoirs, Rickover was very difficult in character. However, this happens often with prominent people.

Hyperactive, politicized, harsh, poisonous, intolerant, unceremonious, incredible workaholic, prohibitively demanding boss, spitting on his official position and ranks, Rickover evoked mixed feelings among his valued and respected colleagues.
Even President Nixon, in a speech delivered in 1973 when Rickover was awarded the fourth admiral star, said bluntly: “I'm not trying to say that he is devoid of contradictions. He says what he thinks. He has opponents who disagree with him. At times they are right, and he is the first to admit that he was wrong. But today's ceremony symbolizes the greatness of the American military system, and the Navy in particular, because this controversial person, this person implementing innovative ideas, was not drowned by bureaucracy; for if the bureaucracy drowns genius, the nation is doomed to mediocrity. "
Rickover hated mediocrity to such an extent that he thought: it is better for a mediocre person to die.
...
In the early 1980s, it was revealed that falsified reports on defects in hull welding led to a delay in launching almost finished submarines. They were built at the Electric Boat shipyard ... The shipyard, of course, tried to blame the fleet for all the gigantic cost and time overruns, but Rickover put his teeth, claws and ties in motion so that the shipyard itself and at its own expense would correct what it messed up.
However, nothing came of it ... Rickover was furious: in fact, the fleet was forced to pay for the incompetence and lies of the shipyard!
Reagan with the resignation of Rickover agreed, but wanted a personal meeting. In the presence of President and Minister of Defense Caspar Weinberger, Rickover turned around in all its glory: right in the Oval Office he called Minister Lehman “an arrogant ant” who “understands nothing in the fleet,” and, turning to Lehman, shouted: “You want to push me to ruin the whole program? Yes, he lies, he lies, because he serves the contractors, and they want to get rid of me, because in the government I alone do not allow them to rob taxpayers! ” Then the riotous admiral attacked the president with the question: “Are you a man? Can you make your own decisions? ”
So January 31, 1982 ended the 63-year naval career of the 80-year-old Hyman Rickover.

(Tatyana Danilova. "Raging Admiral H. Rickover, Father of the US Navy".)

The result of Rickover’s efforts (with all its extravagance and ambiguity) is not just massive US Navy submarines, but massive low-noise submarines. The situation with the ratio of the noise level of domestic and submarines of the US Navy graphically shows:


Note: this graph shows the broadband levels of the primary acoustic field, taking into account narrow-band levels (discrete situations), the situation was even worse for us.

Given the fact that the key tactical property of submarines is stealth, the US Navy submarines had a significant advantage over the Navy submarines.

But the Americans did not stop at having superiority in stealth. The second step to gaining absolute dominance underwater was their approach to target detection. And here they made a real revolution, again demonstrating a much higher level of R&D organization and the use of new submarine search means in the fleet than their adversary - we.

Initially, the search for the goal was based on the fact that, having some preliminary data on the location of the target or even conducting a search in a given area without preliminary information, the target had to be heard. Given the large number of false contacts and difficult background conditions, then a very difficult stage of contact classification began. But later, the Americans made a breakthrough in the use of sonar systems, actually putting the classification stage ahead of the detection stage.

This was due to the targeted search and accumulation of databases of "acoustic portraits" and the characteristic discrete submarines. Before this “data bank” was created, there was a difficult and risky process of accumulating the necessary data, an example of which was the long-term tracking of the Lapton submarine (USS Lapon, Sturgeon submarine) for Project 667 SSBN in the Atlantic.

From the book of D. Sontag "The history of underwater espionage against the USSR":

On September 16, a submarine hydrophone system detected the passage of a Yankee-type submarine north of Norway ...
The Lepon arrived at the strait the next day and began to patrol ... off the coast of Iceland ... The Yankee noises were so weak that the hydroacoustics hardly heard them amid the noise of nearby fishing trawlers and swarming sea creatures ...
The Yankees appeared, but soon disappeared again ... Over the next few days, Lapon found and lost the Yankees more than once. ... Mack's disappointment was shared in Norfolk and in Washington by Capt. Bradley First Deputy Admiral Arnold Shade, still commander of the submarine forces in the Atlantic, and Admiral Murer, commander of the Navy in the North Atlantic. They were aware of the events, as Mack sent short messages on the course of the operation in the VHF band through the planes flying over him. In turn, the Navy timely informed the presidential aides, and Nixon was informed about the progress of the operation in real time.
Mack decided on a very risky maneuver. Inviting the navigators and other officers to the wardroom, he announced that ... we must try to guess where she went next to intercept her at her destination.
... after 12 hours, the Yankees appeared. This time, Mack was determined not to miss the Soviet boat ...
Mack began to map the area of ​​operation of the Soviet boat, perhaps one of the most important intelligence that he could bring home. The Soviet boat settled in an area spanning about 200 thousand square miles. She patrolled 1500 and 2000 miles from the US coast ... checking to see if she was being watched.


... The fifth week has arrived ... By this time, the three Lapon officers on duty realized that their watches coincided with those on the Yankees. Each American could now identify his Soviet “partner” by its characteristic features when performing one or another maneuver. They even gave nicknames to their “partners”: among themselves, American watch officers even began to bet on who would better predict the next Yankee maneuver ...
The Lapon pursued the Yankees throughout the entire period of its patrol and then for some time, when the Soviet boat went home, for 47 days.



Commander SSN-661 Lapon Chester M. "Whitey" Mack

For a long time, the US Navy (and our Navy - now) worked according to the following scheme: detecting a target or something similar to it, then classification, that is, identifying signs that characterize a particular type of submarine. Frightened by Soviet activity in the ocean and faced with constant contact breaks, the Americans changed their approach. At first, for several decades, they tried to get as close as possible to Soviet submarines and record their acoustic parameters close by.

The wave of clashes that took place between our and American submarines in past years was caused by this: the Americans' attempts to get on our boats literally tens of meters and write off the noise. From 1968 to 2000, there were 25 clashes, 12 of which occurred near our shores: the Americans took risks to get the necessary information.

Then these data, as well as the records collected earlier (for example, the aforementioned story with tracking of the SSBN), were used to create the so-called “hydroacoustic portraits” - a set of acoustic spectra characteristic of one type or another of our submarines recorded in this format, in which the computational subsystems of the hydroacoustic complexes (SAC) of the submarines could identify them and compare them with the spectra of noise of the aquatic environment obtained from the antennas around the boat.

And when that happened, a revolution happened. Now, from the acoustic chaos of the oceans, the computer singled out those “pieces” of the spectrum that were specific to the submarine. A computer could decompose a complex spectrum and find in it what was related specifically to the submarine and cut off everything else.

Now the situation has changed. It was no longer necessary to listen feverishly to the underwater world, now all the noise of the ocean was decomposed and analyzed automatically, and if the acoustics discovered that there were frequencies characteristic of the enemy submarine in the array of captured data, they determined (if possible) its type, and only then started to look for her. Classification and target detection now often changed places and at first from a great distance the American submarine detected specific discrete components of a particular submarine.

If the mutual detection ranges of domestic and American second-generation submarines were approximately 1,5: 2 in broadband levels, then when the acoustics of the U.S. Navy submarines were discrete, this ratio changed by almost an order of magnitude (not in our favor).

In this situation, success for our submariners could only be in unconventional decisive actions using the capabilities of their submarines (and their weapons) to "101% of the possible."

For a long time, our submariners were not able to use the same methods, both for reasons of greater noise and a long misunderstanding of its nature (in terms of discrete components), and for reasons of the outdated "ideology" of constructing hydroacoustic complexes, which did not have (up to “Skat-3”) standard means of narrow-band spectral analysis. “Efficiency” of full-time domestic SK74 spectral analyzers (attached to Rubikon and Skat) is characterized by the phrase: “Unsuitable for work on low-noise targets.”

In the overwhelming majority of cases, the tracking of our atomic submarines behind a "probable enemy" was undisguised, very often at high speeds, using active paths (sonar).

It is important to emphasize once again that one of the critical factors was the active use of sonar counters (SSA) of the US Navy submarine. Their efficiency, taking into account the low noise immunity of our analog SACs, was such that, under the conditions of the use of SRS, our SACs were practically “clogged with interference” and “did not see” just anything. Rescued high-frequency mine detection stations ("Radian", "Arfa" ...), which made it possible to efficiently classify GGPD and real targets and successfully maintain contact even at high speeds, ensuring accurate application weapons about the "probable enemy."

In fact, the “underwater fights” of the 70s often resembled the “dog fights” of World War II fighters. Moreover, the superiority in the speed and maneuverability of our submarines, before the appearance of the Mk48 torpedoes in the US Navy, gave us good chances of success in underwater combat. However, these conditions put very stringent requirements on the submarine commanders, which not all objectively complied with.

In a certain sense, all successful anti-submariners in our country were, let’s say, “hooligans”, “pirates” who acted skillfully, toughly and decisively. Knowing many of them, not one comes to mind who is “quiet”. Given the military-technical backlog, success in underwater battles could be wrested only by "violent" ones.

The discussion that has unfolded in the discussion of “some memoirs of retired Navy submarine commanders” on the Avtonomka website is indicative of this (subsequently, due to the severity of the discussion, this was deleted by the site owner, but saved in a copy). The bottom line is that the “polite and correct” ex-commander (nuclear submarines of projects 671B and 667BDR) told us what was “wrong” (and even wrote about the lag in low noise in the Central Committee of the CPSU), while personally not doing anything to to use his existing capabilities. During the discussion, he found out extremely poor knowledge of the characteristics and capabilities of his sonar and weapons (for example, active ASGs and a complex of remote control torpedoes), which he simply did not use, because allegedly "it did not work."

To the objection that “for some reason” all this (active search tools, telecontrol) successfully worked for other commanders of the 671B project of the same division with him and they toughly and skillfully “put in place” US Navy submarines, followed by “personal attacks” in against these commanders (in particular, A. Makarenko).

Yes, according to the story of colleagues, Makarenko was a very tough and “heavy” commander, not only for his subordinates, but also for his command. For example, after a serious conflict with the command of the squadron, he put on overalls and personally climbed into the sewer and shut off the heating (it was winter) and the hot water supply ... to the “admiral's house” (and so that the staffing department of the marine engineering service “could not solve the problem” , and the command had to "negotiate" with the commander).

However, everything worked for Makarenko in the sea, including active paths of the SAC, remote-controlled torpedoes were induced, and the “probable enemy” submarine he simply “flogged”:

In 1975, during the Ocean-75 exercises, the K-454 with the 89th crew (2nd-rank captain A.V. Makarenko) monitored a foreign submarine for 72 hours. Contact was interrupted only by order of a higher command, since the “adversary” on the run 28 knots, to which he was “dispersed” by K-454, “flew” to the area of ​​the military base, where the command did not have time to raise to the surface the diesel-electric submarine which was there underwater.

Subsequently, the above-mentioned commander (“opponent Makarenko”) was transferred from a multi-purpose nuclear submarine (project 671B) to a “strategist” (project 667BDR), and against his will ... With a high probability, the 45th division of multipurpose submarines simply got rid of the “passive” the commander, however, alas, he received the compound of the SSBN, with all the ensuing consequences in the event of war.

Another example is the commander of K-314 captain 1st rank V. Gontarev.


Commander K-314 Captain 1st Rank V. Gontarev

Captain 1st rank V.P. Gontarev, who was considered among the submariners of the division already a veteran of the submarine and had become a universal favorite by that time, intercepts the US Navy SSBN on its K-314 on the way to its deployment from the base on about. Guam and hard tracking forces her to stop deployment and return to base (the surfaced "adversary" was photographed in the water position through the periscope).


"The same picture in the periscope": 05:48 15.10.1976/XNUMX/XNUMX SSBN of the US Navy surfaced after a stiff pursuit of many hours

The indicated problem (the quality and conformity of command personnel: commanders "for peacetime" and "for war") is not unique to the Navy of the USSR and the Russian Federation. For those who are interested, Michael Abrasheff’s book “This is Your Ship” by the former USS Benfold destroyer commander (such as “Arly Burke”) of the US Navy, which brought its lagging ship to the best, is highly recommended. Despite the great successes achieved (and, in fact, precisely because of them), he did not become an admiral, had very "difficult" relations with some other commanders, and as a result was forced to leave the US Navy. Here is a fragment from his memoirs:

On the sixth day, we were tasked with discovering the U.S. Navy submarine, which served as the enemy, and hiding from it. The task of the submarine was to detect and sink the ship on which the commander was. The commander Gary was responsible for this training session, which was determined by his superiority in rank, but three days before the training, we all had not yet been informed of the action plan, and I realized that there was an opportunity to prove ourselves.
...
I called in my captain’s cabin the sailors serving the sonar installation, as well as the corresponding officers ... And I gave them the task to present my plan of action ...
To everyone’s surprise (and mine too), they developed such an ingenious plan that I had never met before. We left it to the discretion of the authorities, but both the commander and the commander of Gary rejected him ...
When I heard their decision, I could not restrain myself. Excitedly, almost insolently, I began to argue with them over the walkie-talkie connecting our ships. ... In unequivocal expressions, I was told that we will use the plan drawn up at Gary ... Tradition and obsolete orders won.
As a result, the boat destroyed all three ships, and her team did not even sweat!

By the beginning of the eighties, the USSR Navy also began to master the work with the analysis of acoustic spectra. And one of the most striking victories of the Soviet submarine during the Cold War belongs to those first attempts.

Raid K-492 to Bangor


With the advent of new, relatively low-noise submarines of Project 671RTM (and deliveries “from behind the curtain” of Western Bruhl & Kier Western civilian digital spectrum analyzers), the opportunity arose not only to change the tactics of our submarine, but already in a number of cases of anticipation in detection and long-term ( including covert) tracking, despite the continued lag in low noise and acoustics due to tactics and military cunning.

It should be noted that the effective use of these spectrum analyzers requires very high training of acoustics, commanders, watch officers and, given their single-channel nature, it was not “panoramic detection”, but a single narrow beam search for a controlled (manually) directivity pattern of the SAR submarine, to the listening path which was connected spectrum analyzer. Obviously, to search for a needle in a haystack (PLA in the ocean), such a “ray” needed to be very well able to use.

The most strikingly new tactics and capabilities were manifested by commander Dudko V. Ya., Who first worked out new tactical methods in defending his SSBNs in the Sea of ​​Okhotsk:

... favorable conditions for the search and tracking of our RPK SN in the Sea of ​​Okhotsk, and especially during the period of our planned military service. From the point of view of the General Staff, it was a protected area, because it seemed that it allowed deploying anti-aircraft defense forces in the shortest possible time, but from the point of view of the secrecy of the PKK SN from the detection by the boats of the enemy with more powerful energy, this is an open and very favorable area that allows for long and covert tracking of our ships over long distances ...
Our command and we, as we were taught and driven into the head, believed that the PKK CH was invulnerable. In this mood, we entered combat service.
... For the first time in the fleet, together with the commander of the BS-5, we changed the configuration of the operation of noise sources, which radically changed the acoustic field of the submarine ...
As a result, during the next check, by their own methods of lack of tracking, they discovered an American submarine ... They installed tracking and, on command from the fleet headquarters, drove it across the Sea of ​​Okhotsk for two days until it went into the ocean ...


Then he successfully applied the experience already on the Ohio SSBN, off the coast of a "probable enemy."

This story (with a number of defaults) is described in the book by V.Ya. Dudko (now Rear Rear Admiral) "Heroes of Bangor"freely available on the Internet. She deserves to retell her briefly.


SSBN “Ohio”, Project 671RTM nuclear submarine in the base, commander V. Dudko

During the provocative U.S. exercises NorPacFleetex Ops'82 in the fall of 1982, the Americans were able to replay Pacific Fleet reconnaissance, deploy an aircraft carrier strike force of more than a dozen ships near Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky, and work out a surprise attack on Kamchatka (with invasions of the Soviet airspace of the USSR over the Kuril Islands for several days later).

It was impossible to leave this unanswered, and the command of the Pacific Fleet decided on a return "courtesy visit" directly to the Americans home in Seattle.

By that time, the activity of the USSR Navy, on the one hand, and a sharp jump in the range of American SLBMs, on the other, allowed the Pacific SSBNs to be relocated to the United States, to Seattle, to the Bangor naval base. There, deep in the Gulf of Juan de Fuca, the exit from which was covered by numerous anti-submarine forces, they were completely safe until the moment they went out into the open ocean, but even there they could count on help.


Navy Bangor (now Navy Kitsap)


Base facilities - famous triangular berths for SSBNs

The Pacific Fleet command considered it necessary to show the Americans that their defense was not at all impenetrable and that, if necessary, Soviet submarines would be able to arrange a US Navy “slaughter” right at their bases.

This was done, and the details of that operation are very well described in The Heroes of Bangor. K-492 with a modified sonar portrait, which the American computers "did not see" ("missed"), slipped through the SOSUS system unnoticed and took a position off the coast of the United States. There she “took” the Ohio SSBN.

If there were a war, and its raid would cost the Americans a lot, and the destroyed SSBNs are just one line on this list of potential losses (including the launch of a “dagger” missile strike on the US Navy SSBN itself).

K-492 left this operation almost unnoticed, although the Americans fished for it desperately and repeatedly had contact with it.

Moreover, our attitude to everything new was, to put it mildly, “ambiguous”. Rear Admiral Dudko V.Ya .:

We received unique tools, methods and techniques for tracking submarines in the natural environment. A unique tracking experience, completely new ways of checking the lack of tracking of our missile carriers, which, unfortunately, didn’t interest anyone (either because of their employment, they either didn’t believe or didn’t want to acknowledge the low secrecy of the PKK SN in “protected” areas).
... the flotilla had only two spectral analysis instruments. One was always at headquarters, and the second I took ...

An interesting comment by an officer of the anti-submarine warfare department of the Kamchatka flotilla A. Semenov:

After Dudko "festered" at Bangor in 492, the Amers, along with the Canadians, quickly “plugged in” and Reagan made 1982 from 5 miles of territorial waters. As shown by the search operation "Mustachioed Tit" in 12.

Some details on the "Mustachioed Tit" are in the memoirs of Veryuzhsky N.: “The story of one photograph, or the fictional events of the period of the Cold War.”

The experience of Dudko was developed by other commanders. Quote from one of the submariners:

I asked ... about 360th and "Ohio" from Kulish, as agreed, from the second. Of course, he pecked, and at first almost killed me, because I immediately started talking about the discovery of the "Ohio" by the northerners. Pissed off terribly. Yes, they can’t do anything, they don’t know how, yes ... etc. etc. Still, I talked about 360. It seems like the truth. Then the same “Ohio” was caught by Oleg Lobanov on the 492nd. At the same time he told in detail how the RTMKs held the Moose’s tail, they didn’t even know that the time of covert tracking was many, many hours and that all this can be achieved, you just have to be a master of your business and not be afraid to violate the governing documents. In general, he also mentioned the anti-submarine operation, which at the Pacific Fleet was similar to the Northern Fleet Aport / Atrin, but it was very successful and secretive and therefore is still classified. And the “Aport” / “Atrina” were failed by the northerners and that they were driven there like kittens, but nevertheless they hung themselves with orders.

And this is the comment of the crew member of the mentioned submarine:

This is true, and Kulish is a truly unique commander, one of those who walk on intuition, “senses” how the target is going. Well, he drunk the crew mercilessly. For which now we can say thanks - there were no accidents, and rare creeps such as fires or water were instantly stopped by a trained l / s ... Lobanov, if my memory serves me, caught another “Ohio”.



It is especially necessary to emphasize here: you must be a master of your craft and not be afraid to violate the governing documents.

The guiding documents of the naval submarine forces are long outdated, to the extent that, as written in them, it is simply impossible to carry out: in battle it will be suicide. In practice, it comes to examples on the verge of idiocy when non-standard and successful actions of our submarines, including against the latest US Navy submarines, they are not researched or transferred as experience “simply because” because they are “castrated” in reporting documents to “fit” for provisions and paragraphs of long-outdated guidance documents ...

Nevertheless, initiative officers and commanders of the Navy did everything that was possible and that was impossible in an underwater confrontation.


Part of the work card of the officer of the anti-submarine warfare department of the Kamchatka flotilla A. Semenov with episodes of U.S. Navy submarine detection. Map source

Pocket card, so that you don’t bother with the secret part and think about it in your free time.
Foreign submarine blue. Inside - who discovered. If on the tracking check for SSBNs, the SSBN red sign is drawn next to it. And the "ray" of tracking. If in a yellow circle - probably we watched secretly. NS - not hidden tracking. The circle crossed out inside is the use of GPA by the enemy. Maneuvers of a foreign boat during tracking (evasion). Well, the whole map behind is full of thoughts, options, assumptions and forecast of enemy actions. And the conclusions - how to detect in the future ...

Someone may grin when they see how many times covert surveillance of the enemy was carried out, but here is what the Chicago Tribune wrote in electronic form in 1991 based on information from veterans of the US Navy and the Intelligence Committee of the House of Representatives. Available on the Daily Press website):

“Retired captain Henry Schweitzer, who from 1965 to 1967 was involved in almost all submarine reconnaissance campaigns in the Pacific, said that“ there could have been incidents when the submarine commanders under my command felt that they had been discovered. But people are people, and they did not include this in their reports on the results of military service. ”

In general, that was the result. The confrontation under water was not a one-goal game, and it was especially acute in the 80s in the Pacific Ocean, where in many cases the “game” was on the verge (or beyond) of a foul.

The map and what is depicted on it clearly shows that with non-standard and creative approaches to solving the assigned combat missions, it was possible to successfully detect foreign submarines even with our equipment. Yes, and now sometimes it turns out. Tactics and the ability to fight compensated (in part, at least) for the gap in technical capabilities, which was and remains significant. But a departure from the traditional principles of anti-submarine warfare, formally fixed, was necessary for success. And success was only there and only when and when the initiative defeated blindly following the letter of the charter.

However, this was not always the case. Often had to "freeze" and act literally on the brink of disaster.

One of these cases is described in one of the books of the American submariner, now a fighter writer Michael DeMercurio, and reflects his real official experience on a U.S. Navy submarine tracking our Project 671 submarine:

... the ship’s control team was on watch at the moment when the submarine was chasing a Soviet Victor class attacking submarine, moving quietly on its tail at a speed of 12 knots - the main cooling pumps were operating at low speed (these are giant car-sized pumps that pump water through the reactor, at a low speed they are quite quiet, but they rattle like a freight train at high speed).
The helmsman at that time wanted to cross his legs and touched the speed task device. The needle moved from the “forward 1/3” mark to the “full forward” mark. “Full forward” means 100% of the reactor’s power, speed of more than 30 knots and an automatic order to start the pumps at full power.
I was a shift engineer in the turbine compartment of the submarine that night. We "hung" on the tail of the Russians, and therefore were tense. And suddenly a bell with the order "full speed ahead."
Oh my God! Ivan rushes at us, or he fired a torpedo, or he heard us and turns around to ram us. It was an emergency. I jumped up and stood behind the reactor operator, who was about to switch the second cooling pump to high speed. The pump doubled in speed, causing the 30-centimeter non-return valve to shut off with a clatter to prevent backflow from the other pump. Hit! The non-return valve closed, the sound rang out in the surrounding water. A split second later, the reactor operator launched the third pump at high speed. Another hit! Pump 4, then 5, two more hits ...
The officer on duty, the navigator, hears the 4 check valves closing and he feels the deck shudder. He sees how the speed increases on the indicator. The helmsman was still not in the know.
The officer in charge grabs the phone to scream at me, just in time to hear my report: “Management, the reactor control team, all the main cooling pumps are working at full power!”
“Stop it all! - shouts the watch officer. “Switch the pumps to low speed!”
And then hell opens. The captain comes running from his cabin, the assistant captain appears, and we almost ram Ivan into the steering wheel from behind.
"5 degrees right steering!" - the officer in charge shouts, trying to prevent our submarine from flying onto the screw of the Victor submarine. We were side by side with a Victor submarine after closing 4 check valves and making a lot of noise due to the pumps running at full capacity. The next ten minutes were full of panic, expectations. We did not know if "Victor" had heard us.
The Russians have a terrible habit of turning around and ramming the submarines chasing them in order to scare them away. But Ivan added gas, not paying any attention. “Thank God that Dmitry was on guard!” - later said the officer on board the vessel. The officers on board the vessel gave each Russian officer on duty, knowing their habits and behavior. “If Sergey were on guard, then we would have sailed home with a Soviet torpedo in the ass.”

"A terrible habit" or, as the US Navy called it - "Crazy Ivan," - the Americans called a maneuver allowing "inspect" the aft sector, which the submarine's SAC did not listen to. The Americans, however, were convinced that this was such a crazy Russian maneuver to avoid tracking. From their side, it really looked like a ram. And it was experienced accordingly.

Many episodes have been and remain connected with torpedoes. And not everything is so simple with them.

Torpedoes on the "probable enemy"


Rear Admiral Lutsky A.N. in his memoirs, “For the Strength of a Durable Casing,” he wrote:

In the spring of 1974, he performed one of the tasks of combat training: a submarine counterattack. The goal is the SSBN of our division, the same as mine, of project 667A. As usual we agreed, came to the area, plunged, getting closer. Around the estimated time on the expected bearing, the acoustics discovered a low-noise target. By all indications, the target is underwater, the rotational speed of the screw is weak, but almost ours. Well, and fired! Behind the noise of the torpedo, the target, of course, was lost. When the noise of the torpedo died down, they surfaced and went to the calculated point of the ascent of the torpedo, pointed the torpedoes at the emerging torpedo. When they arrived at the base, the head of the ITC called:
- Your torpedo hit someone. The lower part of the practical charging compartment of the torpedo is damaged, caught some black pieces of unknown material, on the body of the battery compartment of the corrugation. The torpedo will have to write off. But the recorder worked, homing. There you go!


Considering that American submarines constantly patrolled near our bases in the naval training ranges, there are significant statistics not only of their detection, but of the use of practical weapons on them (with registrars instead of the warhead). However, there is nothing to be proud of, because there are good reasons to believe that the submarines of the so-called partners (as they began to be called in recent years) deliberately "took" our volleys of practical torpedoes for the purpose of reconnaissance.

And such examples, alas, are more than enough, for example, in the mid-90s, not far from Kamchatka, the “partner” submarine was between the “leopard” and the tactical group of the SSBN with the multi-purpose project 671RTM nuclear submarine under guard, “taking over” 3 two-torpedo volleys (most of the torpedoes were raised with guidance).


Rear Admiral Lutsky A.N.

It is worth noting that A.N. Lutsky is one of those submariners whose boat, at one time, "undetected passed through SOSUS," and he should be taken seriously.

RPKSN combat patrol under the command of A.N. Lutsk - on the site "Military Review".

One of the authors of the article had the experience of performing a combat exercise with the bilateral use of practical torpedoes (“leopards” against the BDR), and the torpedo with the BDR was aimed first at the “escaping” PLA of the “partners”, and in the secondary search - already at our “leopard” ( that is, the distances between the three submarines were “pistol”).

Very characteristic in that situation was the very fast Los Angeles Improved output at maximum power and acceleration - with a water reactor! Briefly: “Los (improved)” “escaped” from the 40-node torpedo SET-65.

And here one can’t get around another very “painful” and acute question: the facts of the use of “torpedoes” by our submarines of torpedoes (usually in a practical version) or simulators (with the noise of torpedoes). Such actions were undertaken by the US Navy submarine with the aim of revealing the tactics of the actions of our submarines, evaluating specific officers and commanders for actions in a critical situation, and developing tactics and organizing the sudden and secretive "shooting" of our submarines in the threatened period (immediately before the outbreak of hostilities).


One of the possible examples of such actions is the disruption by the Americans (a submarine of the type "Los Angeles") of the combat service of the SSBN K-500 Pacific Fleet.

This is something to tell us more.

In 1984, the submarine of project 667B K-500 from the 21st DIPL, 4th FLPL under the command of the captain of the 1st rank E.B. Kopeikin was tasked with patrolling in the area near the Aleutian Islands - this was due to the insufficient range of ballistic missiles with which the boat was armed.

During the combat service, the boat was discovered by the US anti-submarine forces, two Los Angeles-type submarines, guided by the base patrol, were sent to its area of ​​location aviation.

Subsequently, the "Los Angeles" conducted dangerous maneuvers near the SSBN, and then one of the American boats launched a pair of practical torpedoes or their simulators indistinguishable from real torpedoes.

A combat alert was announced on the K-500, the personnel put on individual life-saving equipment, the warhead-3 loaded torpedo tubes in readiness to counterattack an American boat.

To inform the General Staff about what was happening, the K-500 surfaced and transmitted a signal that it had been attacked and was accepting the battle.

However, an immediate order came from the General Staff to not counterattack.

After the loss of secrecy, the continuation of the military service turned out to be meaningless, and the boat returned home.

There is, however, a version that the K-500 ended up in the combat service area of ​​the American SSBNs, which take place in the Gulf of Alaska near the Aleutian Islands. And that the "Los Angeles" simply guarded "their" strategist, forcing the uninvited guest from the area of ​​their military service.

We are unlikely to find out the truth soon.


There really were quite a few such episodes, even today, after many years, the Internet is replete with photographs of Soviet atomic submarines taken through American periscopes.


Photo of the Soviet submarine in the periscope of the American nuclear submarine Haddo

Unfortunately, today the level of training of personnel from the "hot" times of confrontation has fallen significantly. The main thing is that the attitude to the matter has changed significantly ...

The film “The Battle of Submarine Fighters: Who Will Win the War” shows the “training element” of “working out evasion” from an enemy torpedo attack by the crew of the multipurpose nuclear submarine Cheetah.


Moment in time 30:22

Frankly speaking, he takes a rash from what he saw! The “consilium” of officers built in the central post (instead of their combat posts) instead of quick actions, completely ineffective methods of evasion (from long-outdated guidance documents) ...


The four-torpedo salvo shown in the film in this situation is just a dumb “dumping ammunition in the sea” ...

At the same time, the Cheetah guard commander in the film bravely declares his “readiness and ability to defeat Virginia in the battle ...”


I would like to ask: what ?! USET-80 torpedoes, the homing system of which is “reproduced on a domestic base” from the American46 Mk1961 torpedo?

In reality (according to the actual report of the acoustics about the dashboard) everything looks, to put it mildly, completely different. In the last case known to the author (the actual use of the US Navy’s PLA “something very similar to a torpedo”), the commander of the BS-5 was the first to leave the shock (!), The rest of the GKP “woke up” and began to control after the first “fur” commands ...

It is very important to understand that the issues of marine underwater weapons and countermeasures are the "spearhead" of underwater confrontation. And if the enemy, figuratively, has colt (and the necessary means of detection), and we have a rubber shot, then even excellent hand-to-hand training will be useless in a combat situation: the sad ending is predetermined.

But the importance of torpedoes in the confrontations between the times of the Cold War and after is a topic for a separate material.
Author:
Photos used:
Robert Stern's "Hunter Hunted" book cover
217 comments
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  1. Mavrikiy
    Mavrikiy 16 July 2020 05: 55
    -3
    The Americans are sincerely convinced that the success of their submarines in the confrontation with the USSR Navy became the determining factor in the success of the US Navy as a whole, and the success of the US Navy contributed to the surrender of Gorbachev to the West.
    Congratulations. repeat Macaques have more intelligence than American generals and admirals. Gorbachev would have surrendered us to an uninhabited island, only hesitated more sophisticatedly, and we would have been happier, longer, because we, too, have become peaceful and environmentally friendly. recourse
  2. And Makarov
    And Makarov 16 July 2020 06: 12
    26
    Eh, there were people ... Thanks for the article hi
    1. Podvodnik
      Podvodnik 16 July 2020 10: 27
      14
      Eh, there were people ... Thanks for the article


      I am joining. The article is excellent.

      About people ... Those who burn in soul and heart do not advance. They are inconvenient, they always want something, they are unhappy with the current state of affairs. They constantly want to improve something, go out to sea and do business. Always pay attention to jambs.
      Again we stumbled into personnel policy. How many times I remember "cadres decide everything" (c). Again we step on the old rake. Until we get a "handle" in the face, the approaches will remain old.

      It remains only to express gratitude to those who were passionate about their work and did not spare their strength in the military business.
    2. Subtext
      Subtext 16 July 2020 15: 51
      0
      Each American could now identify his Soviet “partner” by its characteristic features when performing one or another maneuver. They even gave nicknames to their “partners”: among themselves, American watch officers even began to bet on who would better predict the next Yankee maneuver ...

      So I'm wondering what kind of "characteristic features" our officers of the watch have, which the Yankees can clearly distinguish from a distance by the behavior of the ship during the watch, well, that's what? (despite the fact that in the CP the commander or the first mate is constantly in control of the ship. VO has been assigned a task on watch, and he clearly carries out it under the supervision of the senior) Was this rubbish to be inserted into the article?
      1. Nehist
        Nehist 16 July 2020 16: 09
        0
        The officer in charge has the right to make decisions himself, until the arrival of the same commander or chief officer
        1. K298rtm
          K298rtm 16 July 2020 23: 38
          +1
          In the central there is always a commander, a senior officer (authorized) or a senior on board.
      2. Fizik M
        Fizik M 16 July 2020 19: 53
        +2
        Quote: Subtext
        Should this rubbish be inserted into the article?

        necessary because it is not rubbish
        even in the "mode of a parrot on the shoulder of a one-eyed pirate", each VO has its own "handwriting" of submarine control (which is fully recorded by technical means of reconnaissance)
        1. Subtext
          Subtext 16 July 2020 20: 37
          +2
          I will add. The Yankees keep watch for 6 hours, i.e. their VO with ours intersect at different times and not systematically.
          None of the opponents gave an example of their "handwriting" or "characteristic". The commander or first mate does not arrive at the command post (CP), but are there permanently, or in turns, and often both.
          1. Fizik M
            Fizik M 16 July 2020 21: 45
            +4
            Quote: Subtext
            None of the opponents gave an example of their "handwriting" or "characteristic".

            brought
            but there will be no links (besides what Sontag Drew had)

            Quote: Subtext
            On the pl, the commander or the start-up does not arrive at the GKP (CPU), but are constantly there, or in turn, and often both.

            not always (although this is a violation of handdocks)
            I have the experience of PERSONAL (with free maneuvering) and successful search for IPL in the area I have
            with discovery - woke the Commander (once my first start-up, including who taught this all)
      3. Vladimir Mitin_2
        Vladimir Mitin_2 14 August 2020 23: 02
        0
        Of course, the Americans meant the ship's commanding officer or chief officer
    3. blackies
      blackies 18 July 2020 19: 35
      0
      thanks for that? article about those that "grandma said as it was." Klimov - either a good adventurer from the "writers", or a provocateur (employee) of the GRU, moonlighting on such articles in the internet (including about minesweepers, torpedoes, etc.)
  3. Baron pardus
    Baron pardus 16 July 2020 06: 25
    +6
    Great article - THANKS. More to such.
    1. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 16 July 2020 09: 02
      +7
      Quote: Baron Pardus
      Great article - THANKS. More to such.

      I support. The article is a specialist, a professional in his field, and not a Wikipedia supporter.
      Thank you for the article.
  4. 2 Level Advisor
    2 Level Advisor 16 July 2020 07: 00
    +3
    Interesting article! thanks to the author! it seems that the "physicist" has already been adopted, instead of USET-80
    1. Fizik M
      Fizik M 16 July 2020 09: 22
      +4
      Quote: Level 2 Advisor
      USET-80

      today not only 955 are dragged
      already if the "Boreev" BIUS did not "shmogli" to "Physics" translate, then what to say about "buses" of the 3rd generation
  5. tlauicol
    tlauicol 16 July 2020 07: 13
    +4
    Great job! Thanks to the authors
  6. NDR-791
    NDR-791 16 July 2020 08: 21
    +8
    Gorgeous article. Such information cannot be found among the "political officers" from literature
    1. pmkemcity
      pmkemcity 16 July 2020 11: 41
      -1
      Quote: NDR-791
      Gorgeous article. Such information cannot be found among the "political officers" from literature

      What is "smart" then? The authors have three postulates:
      1. Bad boats? No, normal boats, no worse than American ones. They are just different, with a different philosophy. And we did not lag behind in design decisions (that's for sure), but in production, the speed of construction of the series, and as a result of this, the need to constantly change the project.
      2. Bad hydroacoustics? Again, not true. We spent no less than Americans on science, and therefore, we knew much more of them, for they knew everything that they know, and were silent about what we know about. The architecture of GAS, GAKs, automation of processes, interfacing of all ship systems in BIUS - and here we are undoubted leaders, so to speak, "trendsetters". Was the element base lagging behind? No! Compare "peers". These comparisons are not in favor of the Americans, as is the comparison of the "Institute for Noble Maidens" with a numbered research institute. Just again, a different philosophy - on the part of the Americans, the use of mass, civilian technologies, universal processors, and on our part - a narrow specialization, often with wired brains, that is, with the impossibility of flexible response to constant changes. It seemed like a cheaper way (saving in performance), but in the end, mass production of universal components won out.
      3. Bad commanders? There were all sorts of ... The big fleet demanded many commanders, albeit not always of high quality, but I assure you that "their" situation is not better. And the fact that they grazed with us, and we did not graze with them, is not the fault of the commanders. The Motherland will order, the Komsomol will answer - there is!
      PS "Guiding documents" are written in blood, and it is a pity that not with the blood of the authors - otherwise, lying on the sofa and scratching their scratched forehead, they would not have written such nonsense.
      1. NDR-791
        NDR-791 16 July 2020 12: 19
        +3
        Bad boats, poor sonar, bad commanders ...
        I do not consider from this point of view. Namely, in terms of information about the historical facts of the confrontation in those days. He was not particularly interested in these topics, but read what came across. Cherkashin, Shigin, Mormul and several other authors. I just don’t know who to read for information, but not for patriotism. Here in the article the authors are named unknown to me earlier. I will search, read. For this and thanks to the author.
        1. pmkemcity
          pmkemcity 16 July 2020 12: 39
          +2
          You have forgotten about the "cabin boy of the Northern Fleet"! laughing Although, if I had not been a sailor, I would probably have lost my youth from Pikul. But youth passed without him, and in maturity, nothing but a smile "Cruiser" does not cause. I read with pleasure "Favorite" and, especially, "Three ages ...", but it has nothing to do with the fleet, like this article.
          1. timokhin-aa
            16 July 2020 13: 45
            +7
            Oh yes, the recollections of Rear Admiral Dudko about how he was waiting for a target 3 miles from some American town in the Seattle metropolitan area is the same as Pikul.

            I look you sickly so hooked. Are you in the underwater topic or something?
            1. pmkemcity
              pmkemcity 16 July 2020 13: 47
              -2
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              Are you in the underwater topic or something?

              Everything has already been "sawed" before us!
          2. Fizik M
            Fizik M 16 July 2020 19: 21
            -3
            Quote: pmkemcity
            Although, if I weren’t a sailor,

            YOU are not a sailor, but a stupid "political officer"
            "submariner" from the word PODVODA
            By the way, where did they take YOU to the "cart"? party recruitment from agriculture? lol
            Quote: pmkemcity
            it has nothing to do with the fleet, like this article.

            YOUR verbiage is not related to the fleet
            1. The comment was deleted.
            2. Moore
              Moore 17 July 2020 09: 52
              +4
              Quote: Fizik M
              YOU are not a sailor, but a stupid "zampolito" "submariner" from the word SUPPLY


              I recognize the old hydromayor mina laughing, fervently rude to anyone, even the most humble opponent. laughing
          3. timokhin-aa
            17 July 2020 23: 54
            +1
            Here you have Pikul instead. On the topic under discussion, so that arrogance flies a bit.






            This is the question of:

            2. Bad hydroacoustics? Again, not true. We spent no less than Americans on science, and therefore, we knew much more of them, because they knew everything that they know, and were silent about what we know. The architecture of GASs, GAKs, automation of processes, interfacing of all ship systems in BIUS - and here we are the undoubted leaders, so to speak, "trendsetters".


            1. pmkemcity
              pmkemcity 20 July 2020 11: 20
              -1
              What does hydroacoustics have to do with it? If you are talking about an element base or open architecture, then say so. I, as an electronics engineer, side with what is in the "black box", the main thing is that I know what gets there and what I want to get at its output (signal conversion).
              1. timokhin-aa
                20 July 2020 11: 29
                +1
                The open architecture and the use of an accessible electronic database allows the SJSC to be modernized every 3-4 years.
                Plus here is the fact that the enemy has superiority in the element base, and we get superiority in technology, despite the fact that massive components are really used there (and rightly so).
                1. pmkemcity
                  pmkemcity 21 July 2020 05: 00
                  -1
                  We do piece things. Why do we need continuous production? The Russian (Soviet) hydroacoustician has always been distinguished by an inquisitive mind and playful hands - so they will be flushed three or four times a year with the brains of the SAC laughing They have no superiority in the element base, they just have it, but we do not have it. This does not mean that we do not know, or do not know how, it means that we simply do not want to do something.
                  1. timokhin-aa
                    21 July 2020 09: 05
                    +3
                    This is the whole point, that we are doing piece production and the Americans have stuck to the stream of serial constantly updated products and they always have everything modern, and not so expensive.
                    And here if something is updated on a boat every 20 years, then it's already a miracle.
      2. Nehist
        Nehist 16 July 2020 16: 12
        +1
        Bad you hand-guided documents Analyze !!! At this time, even the charter of the guard duty must be changed !!! Which is written not just in blood but in great blood
      3. Fizik M
        Fizik M 16 July 2020 19: 18
        +4
        Quote: pmkemcity
        normal boats no worse than american

        Worse, and contrary to the "fables" about "the 3rd generation" YAKOBE "caught up with" the amers, on the 3rd knee the lag just INCREASED
        Quote: pmkemcity
        we are not in design decisions (that's for sure),

        just smile lol
        Quote: pmkemcity
        as a consequence of this, the need for constant change of the project.

        just one phrase from the "serious document":
        - Subjectively "Sturgeon-M" is perceived as a WELL NOISE RTM ...
        In fact, when The LATEST (at that time - 1992) Navy SSBN - K-407 was successfully tracked by an enemy submarine in 1967. - quite a clear and comprehensive fact
        Quote: pmkemcity
        Bad sonar? Again not true

        LIE
        Quote: pmkemcity
        We spent no less than Americans on science,

        that's for sure
        Quote: pmkemcity
        and therefore, they knew much more than they did, for they knew everything that they knew, and were silent about what we know.

        You are lying
        because we have learned a lot of questions on acoustics from our foreign intelligence
        sad joke in the fact that much in such reports our "science" denied
        As a matter of fact, after an obser with early detection of targets by DS in the early 70s, we have nothing to talk about further ...
        about the "creative methods" of our science such as "heavy screws" (not to remove the DS, but to "move" it outside of our measurement band (despite the fact that the frequency range of Western GAS took it normally)), I don't even mention
        Quote: pmkemcity
        The architecture of GAS, GAKs, automation of processes, interfacing of all ship systems in BIUS - and here we are the undoubted leaders, so to speak, "trendsetters".

        YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
        fool
        cm MGK-400M
        "there are facts on the face" (absolute rudimet in ideology and concept, with a very good technical level), I am not talking about interfacing with BIUS, the enemy has had INTEGRATED ASBUs for more than a quarter of a century, where targets communicate at the "noise-signal level "(and not" packs of Belomor "as we have)
        Quote: pmkemcity
        Was the element base lagging behind? No! Compare "peers".

        fool
        YOU stumble into the publications of the staff of "Oceanpribor" "???
        Yes, they are great, in the sense that technically perfect complexes are able to be made on our wretched and problematic ECB, but the problem of ECB lag is, and it is very acute
        Quote: pmkemcity
        Just again, a different philosophy - on the part of the Americans, the use of mass, civilian technologies, universal processors

        your next lie
        on the Courage forum, in hydroacoustics an article was posted by the former deputy of the State Duma "Oceanpribor" Smirnov S.A., there it is exhaustively about this, and from the Professional with a capital letter
        Quote: pmkemcity
        I assure you that "they" have no better situation

        taking into account YOUR systematic LIES, YOUR "assurer" has not yet grown (and is unlikely to grow)
        about the professional level of their commanders had the opportunity to judge PERSONALLY, in the ocean
        Quote: pmkemcity
        The motherland will order, the Komsomol will answer - yes!

        about "political-impotent" lol "blew" ...
        what will the "Komsomol answer"? BATTLE LIST COMPETITION? wassat
        Quote: pmkemcity
        PS "Guiding Papers" are written in blood,

        too often with us they are written in urine - the full diaper of who they were written ...
        see article TRPL on dodging torpedoes wassat
        if it could be laid out openly, the reaction of intelligent civilians would be - "are they in the navy, just cuckoo?"
        Quote: pmkemcity
        blood of authors

        "monsieur zampolito", these long-dead hands taught me how to violate experienced and worthy commanders
        including at sea and on real naval submarines
        1. The comment was deleted.
          1. timokhin-aa
            17 July 2020 23: 18
            +2
            They wrote to you about the MGK-400M sonar system - development already in the 2000s, and not about the old MGK-400.
            Literally, then:

            cm MGK-400M
            "there are facts on the face" (absolute rudimet in ideology and concept, with a very good technical level), I am not talking about interfacing with BIUS, the enemy has had INTEGRATED ASBUs for more than a quarter of a century, where targets communicate at the "noise-signal level "(and not" packs of Belomor "as we have)


            From narcissism you already have letters in your eyes blur. Return to reality or something.
            1. pmkemcity
              pmkemcity 18 July 2020 11: 32
              -1
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              They wrote to you about the MGK-400M sonar system - development already in the 2000s, and not about the old MGK-400.

              You will already decide on the dates. You wrote about 60-80 years. MGK-400m is a "rudiment" on a "rudiment" (Rubicon in Warsaw), like all "modern" weapons of Russia. This creation has nothing to do with hydroacoustics as a science.
              1. timokhin-aa
                18 July 2020 15: 31
                +2
                Article about 60-80. In the comments you were given an example of another complex. Take off the crown, otherwise it's funny.
              2. Fizik M
                Fizik M 18 August 2020 01: 11
                0
                Quote: pmkemcity
                This creation has nothing to do with hydroacoustics as a science.

                fool
        2. georg 2
          georg 2 3 August 2020 03: 20
          0
          Worse, and contrary to the "fables" about "the 3rd generation" YAKOBE "caught up with" the amers, on the 3rd knee the lag just INCREASED

          But all the responsible persons from the military and from science say that we have achieved parity with the Americans in terms of noise and detection range. Who to believe, the authors, who is lying?
  7. Hikaro
    Hikaro 16 July 2020 08: 59
    +5
    Great article !!!! Read in one go! I would like more such articles! The author has undoubted respect!
  8. tihonmarine
    tihonmarine 16 July 2020 09: 00
    +7
    According to John Lehman, US Secretary of Navy at Reagan, during a meeting in Malta, Gorbachev upset Reagan:
    "We are surrounded by your fleet."

    How can the fleet fight if the highest person of the state is an alarmist and traitor.
  9. rudolff
    rudolff 16 July 2020 09: 09
    +9
    Oh and the Pacific Northmen love ..!
    1. Fizik M
      Fizik M 16 July 2020 09: 20
      +3
      Quote: rudolff
      Oh and the Pacific Northmen love ..!

      "facts on the face"
      I'm talking about the 80s
      and against the "northerners" were obsolete SSBN "Madisson", and against the Pacific Fleet the newest "Ohio"
      as a result - in one case RESULTS, in another "Atrino-apporto SONGS AND DANCES" "Shevchenko and Co"
      in the "dog dump" mode from the 70s, the northerners were also worn (for example, I read Gavrilov's report)
      on research exercises on the use of hydroacoustic means at Chernov I will write in the article on the GAS (SAC) PL
      1. Vol4ara
        Vol4ara 16 July 2020 10: 22
        +1
        It is possible in more detail about atrin
        1. timokhin-aa
          16 July 2020 13: 33
          +1
          http://www.k-244.ru/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=174&Itemid=161
        2. Fizik M
          Fizik M 16 July 2020 19: 22
          -2
          will be in the sonar submarine
      2. timokhin-aa
        16 July 2020 11: 36
        +4
        It was much harder for them to go out, do not forget. Purely geographically.
    2. Bez 310
      Bez 310 16 July 2020 10: 07
      -3
      Severomors - "stooped dogs", braggart
      and fraudsters (whatever you want, so understand),
      and the Pacific are real unknown heroes.
      1. Fizik M
        Fizik M 16 July 2020 10: 15
        +2
        Quote: Bez 310
        fraudsters

        at the Pacific Fleet too
        especially when the question of "very desirable" by the chief of the contact is "personnel" (transfer to an "interesting place") to the commander of the KGAG;)
        "it will be, you have a" contact ", pulling the boss - you will lick your fingers"

        "contact" - "was" (moreover, "lick fingers" - KGAG and KGRR were sidekicks), and the film laboratory "confirmed everything";)

        only there was no SSBN belay

        PS: I emphasize that this case is not about those indicated in the article
        1. Bez 310
          Bez 310 16 July 2020 10: 17
          -1
          It was everywhere, but on the SF it was systematic.
          1. Fizik M
            Fizik M 16 July 2020 10: 23
            0
            Quote: Bez 310
            but on the SF it was systematic.

            not this way
            at the Federation Council, the adjustment of the "texture" was systematized by hand

            when I told the northerners about my "life hacks";) on catching "angels" - which was common in Kamchatka, the phrase sounded:
            - We have for this immediately ... and dismissal
            1. Bez 310
              Bez 310 16 July 2020 10: 30
              +4
              I will not talk about search and discovery
              IPL by SF helicopters at the request of naval commanders in
              Middle-earth.
              About our planned "feat" of detecting
              I already spoke about IPL.
              All "had", but on the Northern Fleet there were such "deflections"
              a lot of.
            2. K298rtm
              K298rtm 17 July 2020 00: 47
              +2
              1. Yes, there were amateurs on the Northern Fleet (not quite adequate - as it seemed to me when communicating in the control room) of "instrument contacts".
              2. Admiral Volobuev (the main proto-water boatman in the USSR Navy in the 80s) was quite adequate and quite knowledgeable in the field of g / a chief (this is my personal opinion based on communication after Aport).
              1. mik193
                mik193 17 July 2020 13: 17
                +3
                Well, as for the instrument contact. There was a case, in the autonomous system we have a couple of days on the recorder, the instrument contact on the left is 145 degrees, the shape is rounded, presumably submarine. The state joint-stock company is old (MGK-100), it is unrealistic to go out by ear, respectively. Unofficially reported to the commander. The wise old commander (I will remember for a century) listened to us, climbed into the navigator's cabin, appreciated all this disgrace. Then I remember the beginning of the commander's phrase on the evasion maneuver: "In order to preemptively break contact with a possibly tracking enemy submarine, I decided ...." A day later, there was silence, the recorder was clean. Then we get a radio - the US Navy PLA is searching for the restoration of contact in the area - our coordinates, days earlier. Well, that's how they came off or tried to come off. But you can't really report it - all require a three-minute recording in noise at least.
                1. timokhin-aa
                  19 July 2020 16: 35
                  +2
                  From Maxim a question:

                  Well, as for the instrument contact. It was the case, in the autonomous area we have a couple of days on the recorder instrument contact left 145 degrees, the shape is rounded, presumably submarine. The state joint-stock company is old (MGK-100);


                  Very interesting. Do I understand correctly that the contact was taken to the ONBOARD antenna "Kerch"? Was there a track on the recorder? In theory, this is the most "sensitive" instrument of the SAC ...
                  1. mik193
                    mik193 7 August 2020 11: 18
                    0
                    The MGK-100 onboard antenna was designed to detect high-noise targets. She could, for example, listen to transport in the Atlantic, sometimes implementing the 1st DZAO (far zone of acoustic illumination). On pl - very bad. We worked on the main cylindrical antenna (antenna 1-1 as described). Well, the recorder and the recorder - we call the same thing differently. Yes, first there is a mark on the recorder, then the target appears in the ear.
      2. timokhin-aa
        16 July 2020 11: 25
        +4
        Yes now already famous
      3. mik193
        mik193 17 July 2020 19: 26
        +1
        Do not hurt. Of course in the North there were much more warriors, but we, the most ordinary submarine officers, were also present.
    3. timokhin-aa
      16 July 2020 11: 26
      +4
      Do not take on your own account
      1. Nehist
        Nehist 16 July 2020 16: 17
        +2
        In fact, KTOF (why do you all call it Pacific Fleet?) Was not a beloved child and was supplied with a residual principle. Everything that has always been dealt with irreparable defects
        1. Cyril G ...
          Cyril G ... 16 July 2020 19: 54
          +4
          Yeah distribution on the issue in KVVMU.
          According to the results of the fight between the thieves - Baltiysk
          Less Thieves and Southerners - Sevastopol
          Then especially gifted or very smart in Kamchatka
          "Severe men" and future admirals went to the North.
          And the rest of the "losers" all in a crowd at the Pacific Fleet
          1. pmkemcity
            pmkemcity 17 July 2020 06: 23
            0
            Quote: Cyril G ...
            Yeah distribution on the issue in KVVMU.
            According to the results of the fight between the thieves - Baltiysk
            Less Thieves and Southerners - Sevastopol
            Then especially gifted or very smart in Kamchatka
            "Severe men" and future admirals went to the North.
            And the rest of the "losers" all in a crowd at the Pacific Fleet

            In TOOVMU it was about the same, only with a regional bias. Thieves Vladivostok (the most thieves polygon), future admirals to Kamchatka (usually, not the highest quality contingent), the rest of Primorye and the most "frostbitten" in terms of discipline, but as a rule not study, at 10 OpEsk. We have only one from the course in Kaliningrad (perceived as a link and a year later transferred) and one to the Black Sea Fleet (there was a completely incapacitated person, he left not in his specialty).
  10. Fizik M
    Fizik M 16 July 2020 09: 18
    +2
    “A terrible habit,” or, as the US Navy called “Crazy Ivan,” was one of the main maneuvers to evade tracking in those years — the superiority of the enemy in technology forced them to act in precisely these ways.
    this is "not quite true";)
    1. timokhin-aa
      16 July 2020 11: 23
      +4
      Then I watched a documentary about the American submarine, they confirmed "crazy Ivan", Clancy did not come up with it.
      1. Fizik M
        Fizik M 16 July 2020 19: 24
        +3
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Then I watched a documentary about the American submarine, they confirmed "crazy Ivan", Clancy did not come up with it.

        this is their INTERPRETATION (and the "curve") of our real maneuver for inspecting the feed sector
      2. Podvodnik
        Podvodnik 16 July 2020 21: 21
        +1
        there "crazy Ivan" was confirmed


        There is nothing crazy in the maneuver. In no other way can the feed be checked for lack of tracking. Turn around and listen. Well, if only the multi-purpose covers and is planned to check the absence of tracking with its help. Mirrors on the submarine is not provided.
        Surely about "crazy Ivan" just a "cinematic stamp".
        1. timokhin-aa
          16 July 2020 21: 23
          +3
          Well, here I bought for what, I sell it - they, apparently, perceived it precisely as a maneuver of separation, and the fear of a head-on collision there seemed quite real.
          1. mik193
            mik193 17 July 2020 08: 28
            0
            Well, here, most likely, the situation is like this. The tracking enemy simply "lost" the distance (this happens) and came close enough. And when, during our circulation, the bearing begins to change rapidly, you can already imagine anything you want. Hence the "crazy Ivan".
    2. mik193
      mik193 16 July 2020 11: 28
      +8
      The function of this turn is to listen to the "dull" aft sector. With weak acoustics, don't turn around - you can't pull up the foe to the range of your contact.
      1. Fizik M
        Fizik M 16 July 2020 19: 55
        0
        Quote: mik193
        listening to the "deaf" feed sector.

        which is more than overlapped by GPBA
        which we did not like very much and which are not even on the newest "Warsaw women" of the Navy
        (despite the fact that the MGK-400M (B) version with a very decent GPA is available)
        1. Podvodnik
          Podvodnik 16 July 2020 21: 15
          +4
          which is more than overlapped by GPBA


          Maybe I was winding up another GPBA from the "coil" (the beard was wound), but the antenna is linear, the "toroid" diagram, in the tail there is a "end body" for stabilization. How can GPBA listen to aft heading angles?
          Even after the circulation (change of course) it needs time to stabilize in order to position itself "along" the new course of the PL. Have you invented something new and appeared "on the back of your head"?
          1. Fizik M
            Fizik M 16 July 2020 21: 41
            +1
            Quote: Podvodnik
            toroid diagram,

            the fact that "straight nose" and in the "stern" she also "sees" (of course, with much worse efficiency)
            but the "forest discrete" torpedoes are quite detectable
            low-noise target "at the back of the head" - the same
            especially if you contribute
            but this is about the "80s"
            with 4 knee opponent "tail" is frankly small
          2. timokhin-aa
            17 July 2020 23: 00
            +4
            Maxim is banned, at his request, I post an artifact with a GPBA pattern

        2. mik193
          mik193 17 July 2020 08: 05
          0
          Well, we didn’t have a GPBA. There was an ancient MGK-100, and they did it. More advanced neighbors talked about various hemorrhoids (now I won’t say exactly which ones) with the setting and cleaning of the towed antenna, therefore they didn’t like it.
  11. Bez 310
    Bez 310 16 July 2020 10: 16
    +9
    Great article!
    Each bast is a line. Well done!
    And all of life, nothing was invented.
    Once I talked about the search and detection of IPL:
    "I gloomily look at the scout. He is also not happy - if we honestly tell in the report how it was, we will simply be shot, and the corpses will be put on display to the Air Force personnel. I think the same way. Here is a paradox - the boat was caught" outright ", but to speak the truth is impossible, because they did not catch the textbook.
    The commander timidly suggests portraying all this as a new tactical device. I have objections - first it was necessary to develop a reception on paper, confirm with the Commander, work on our boats, and only then work on the adversary. Warmed up even more.
    To sum up. In the report, we will blatantly lie according to the textbook. What, what, but we know how to lie, so we boldly develop an official version. I gather all the chiefs of services, I bring the official version, I give permission to make the necessary reports. "
    (https://vk.com/club189957947?w=wall-189957947_317%2Fall)
    1. timokhin-aa
      16 July 2020 11: 24
      +7
      This is terrible, yes.
    2. timokhin-aa
      16 July 2020 11: 37
      +7
      Can you start writing here?
      1. Bez 310
        Bez 310 16 July 2020 11: 50
        +4
        Yes, I already do not write "there", there is neither sense nor incentive.
        1. timokhin-aa
          16 July 2020 14: 00
          10


          Too bad people lost a lot
          1. Bez 310
            Bez 310 16 July 2020 14: 08
            11
            Yes, the current "people" will not lose anything from the fact that they do not know how
            served before. Different times, different people, different interests ...
            I am disgusted when I find out that the officer knows better the payment procedure
            incentive allowances than their immediate responsibilities.
            In general, I don't really like the "current" ones ... And in our time there were
            cases of appointment to positions "by pull", but it turned out that now
            all this is commercialized, there is a whole
            "industry" to move "in the right direction".
            Okay, let's not talk about sad things ...
            1. timokhin-aa
              16 July 2020 14: 16
              +7
              These are representatives of the older generation who often say, but honestly, what’s wrong with the allowances?
              After all, people still fight, they just get paid for it now.
              As for the "industry", there were such things before, just "unsystematic". Someone smeared a career with a red fish, someone "got" something, here in the comments above, fake contacts are mentioned as a "stimulus", etc.
              People are people.

              War will cure if we jump. And even without war, it is technically possible to "smooth out" all this. For example, if bonuses will fly for ignorance of their duties.

              But the example from the older generations is very useful, and very interesting, do not even hesitate.

              I do not think that our future will be very peaceful. And the memories of people like you can not be superfluous. At least not to step on the old rake.
              1. Bez 310
                Bez 310 16 July 2020 14: 25
                +5
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                ... what's wrong with the allowances?

                Remember the case at the Lipetsk Aviation Center.
                Something has changed? Yes, they have become better "encrypted".

                Quote: timokhin-aa
                People are still fighting, just
                they are now paid for it.

                I am ashamed to learn that in order to go to war,
                Now we need to give a bribe (they probably lie ...).
                1. timokhin-aa
                  16 July 2020 14: 41
                  +2
                  I can’t comment on Lipetsk, but in my opinion, with the appearance of political will, such things in the armed forces will be identified and eliminated.

                  I am ashamed to learn that in order to go to war,
                  Now we need to give a bribe (they probably lie ...).


                  The competition is big. Everyone wants to fight and everyone wants to warm their hands on this. The sign of time. This has already happened in the past more than once.
                  In a PMC, a fighter can mow money for an apartment in a city with a million inhabitants in five months, if he is not killed. In the Armed Forces, "combat" can be no less, and with less risk.
                  Now people have slightly different values, it just needs to be accepted.
                  Some then cause fire on themselves, even if they paid to get into the war.
                  1. Bez 310
                    Bez 310 16 July 2020 14: 52
                    +7
                    Quote: timokhin-aa
                    Now people have slightly different values, it just needs to be accepted.

                    Yes.
                    I have accepted this a long time ago, and just stating the facts.
                    Money, flattery, window dressing, fraud ....
                    But my personal opinion is the actual combat readiness,
                    and for this you have to pay money.
                    But the actual combat readiness has long been forgotten, the main thing
                    - a beautiful picture in the report.
                    It's time for the bosses to read the novel by A. Azolsky
                    "Lingering Shot", especially the section on Cap. II of Zhilkin.
                    1. timokhin-aa
                      16 July 2020 14: 55
                      +5
                      But my personal opinion is the actual combat readiness,
                      and for this you have to pay money.
                      But the actual combat readiness has long been forgotten, the main thing
                      - a beautiful picture in the report.


                      Yes, here I agree with you.
                    2. Fizik M
                      Fizik M 16 July 2020 20: 30
                      +1
                      Quote: Bez 310
                      "Lingering Shot", especially the section on Cap. II of Zhilkin.

                      in a three-day battle, walking the terminal ship of the squadron, he was forced to clearly and correctly record in the logbook the places of death of destroyers and transports.
                      https://www.rulit.me/books/zatyazhnoj-vystrel-read-138454-38.html
                      everything was much tougher in life ...

                      time 12:58, about Petrov ...
            2. Aag
              Aag 16 July 2020 17: 24
              +2
              Quote: Bez 310
              Yes, the current "people" will not lose anything from the fact that they do not know how
              served before. Different times, different people, different interests ...
              I am disgusted when I find out that the officer knows better the payment procedure
              incentive allowances than their immediate responsibilities.
              In general, I don't really like the "current" ones ... And in our time there were
              cases of appointment to positions "by pull", but it turned out that now
              all this is commercialized, there is a whole
              "industry" to move "in the right direction".
              Okay, let's not talk about sad things ...

              hi The same sadness takes over .. (((
    3. Podvodnik
      Podvodnik 16 July 2020 21: 25
      +2
      Warm up even more


      This is the most offensive thing. The main thing is to use a piece of paper. The result is not interesting. Moreover, some new tactical device.
      As the saying goes: "without a piece of paper you are kaka ... but with a piece of paper you are a man."
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  13. Aviator_
    Aviator_ 16 July 2020 10: 20
    +2
    Very thorough analysis, respect to the author. I didn’t know that analyzers "Bruel & Kjaer" were successfully used by us for this purpose as well. I dealt with them in another area.
  14. Fizik M
    Fizik M 16 July 2020 10: 20
    +9
    Quote: Bez 310
    if we honestly tell us how it was in the report, they will simply shoot us, and the corpses will be displayed to the Air Force personnel. I think the same way. Here’s the paradox - the boat is caught “clean”, but you can’t tell the truth, because you didn’t catch according to the textbook.

    The literal phrase of one of our best anti-submariners (Submarine Commander):
    I made a complete and objective report on my BS and detections in only one place - a special department.
  15. Doctor
    Doctor 16 July 2020 11: 03
    +6
    Yes, it is valid. As my brother, a submariner, said, we were in a real war, all that was left was to launch torpedoes.
    1. timokhin-aa
      16 July 2020 11: 24
      +6
      This was a real war.
  16. dgonni
    dgonni 16 July 2020 11: 07
    +5
    Respect. Excellent review and analysis of the current state.
    For the Admiral’s house I heard from a bull, I thought a bike. And that's how it is :).
    Well, the fact that the oil tank was the first to wake up is not surprising. Given the specifics of the service and constant monitoring of the reactor.
    Thanks again!
    1. Fizik M
      Fizik M 16 July 2020 19: 26
      +2
      Quote: dgonni
      For the Admiral’s house I heard from a bull, I thought a bike. And that's how it is :).

      Assistant Makarenko told me about this;)
  17. Ersh
    Ersh 16 July 2020 11: 40
    +2
    There is nothing wonderful in this article. The reference to the film as a fact is especially "admired"! Why long and tedious to describe the "legends of deep antiquity"? Already with the appearance of the 671RTM project, the situation has changed for the better. I had the honor to serve in the 45th division at that time, I personally know all the commanders mentioned in the article. Our "steamer" drove the Amer from the entrance to our bay to Japan for several days. How we swore that they cannot tear themselves away! The thing is that we were returning from the autonomous system, there were a day before surfacing, and then these! I had to spend an extra week at sea.
    With the advent of 971, the project became even better, but then - the restructuring and destruction of the fleet. I hope that all the same, Ash will be built in sufficient quantities.
    And finally. The author, obviously, does not realize that now there are means of detecting the plat on other physical fields, which have good efficiency. Let him take an interest.
    1. Bez 310
      Bez 310 16 July 2020 11: 54
      +1
      Quote: Ersh
      Now there are means of detecting the pla on other physical fields that have good efficiency.

      Who has it?
      1. Fizik M
        Fizik M 16 July 2020 19: 31
        -1
        Quote: Bez 310
        Who has it?

        yes there monsieur hike all head
        HZ maybe the volumes of the PSS VIL fell on his "political head" during the spell lol
    2. timokhin-aa
      16 July 2020 11: 59
      +7
      Some kind of strange comment. What exactly doesn’t suit you? Any facts incorrectly stated?
      I hope that all the same, Ash will be built in sufficient quantities.

      They won’t build it, it’s an incredibly expensive boat, which, according to the mind, went to replace the 949 project, and not Pike.
      And as a multi-purpose boat Ash is not optimal even once.

      And finally. The author, obviously, does not realize that now there are means of detecting the plat on other physical fields, which have good efficiency. Let him take an interest.


      There are two authors, one was once an assistant to the adviser to the Secretary of Defense on these issues, the second was engaged in the extraction of American documents on this subject.
      So we are in the know, thanks.
      1. pmkemcity
        pmkemcity 16 July 2020 12: 31
        -4
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        There are two authors, one was once an assistant to the adviser to the Secretary of Defense on these issues, the second was engaged in the extraction of American documents on this subject.
        So we are in the know, thanks.

        Laughing out loud! Usually my secretary deals with "these" questions! And documents on "this" subject ... and in "Soyuzpechat" are a dime a dozen!
        1. timokhin-aa
          16 July 2020 12: 32
          +7
          and in "Soyuzpechat" a dime a dozen!


          Well, get one out. By "other detection methods".
          1. pmkemcity
            pmkemcity 16 July 2020 12: 44
            -2
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            Well, get one out. By "other detection methods".

            And even thirty years ago, my classmate wrote a diploma, which was part of the teacher's dissertation, on radar methods. There was a blizzard of materials in the school! I refused to be "third" myself, because I hate three-story mathematics.
            1. timokhin-aa
              16 July 2020 12: 45
              +1
              So these are ours.
              And American?
              1. pmkemcity
                pmkemcity 16 July 2020 12: 49
                -3
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                So these are ours.
                And American?

                All "our" is the long-dangling "American". They scam at us, print at home, and we translate and keep secrets at home using google translator bully And so in a circle.
                1. timokhin-aa
                  16 July 2020 12: 53
                  +2
                  Fairy tales do not, please.
                  We went to this topic independently of them.
                  And they are independent of us.

                  For the time being.
                  1. pmkemcity
                    pmkemcity 16 July 2020 13: 06
                    -4
                    Quote: timokhin-aa
                    Fairy tales do not, please.


                    Why do I, as a composer oprenik, gravitate towards the classics? The fifth movement "Opera", watch from 11.30 sec.
                2. Fizik M
                  Fizik M 16 July 2020 19: 33
                  -1
                  Quote: pmkemcity
                  All "ours" are long-hanging "American". They scam at us, print at home, and we translate and secret with Google translator and so on in a circle.

                  fool
                  ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh lol
                  YOU this, do not postpone the visit to the narcologist wassat
                  1. pmkemcity
                    pmkemcity 17 July 2020 05: 03
                    +1
                    Quote: Fizik M
                    ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
                    YOU this, do not postpone the visit to the narcologist

                    Did it help you Tweet the phone.
            2. Nehist
              Nehist 16 July 2020 16: 31
              +4
              That's why I do not like highbrow with their dissertations ... You in practice try to apply your calculations !!! When time is limited !!! Complete improvisation and violation of all that is possible !!! Unfortunately you can’t file this in official reports if you don’t want to be kicked out of service
              1. pmkemcity
                pmkemcity 16 July 2020 17: 12
                +1
                Quote: Nehist
                That's why I do not like highbrow with their dissertations ... You in practice try to apply your calculations !!! When time is limited !!! Complete improvisation and violation of all that is possible !!! Unfortunately you can’t file this in official reports if you don’t want to be kicked out of service

                I do not consider myself a "highbrow", but my hat is size 63. "I am a rocket! I have not finished your bursa!" I think that the entire TOVVMukha of the 80s remembers this teacher, who walked on the parade ground as a combatant. And how right the Soviet government was when it made engineering specialties a command! For a person who believes that "time is limited" cannot command a modern ship, since his views contradict the basic postulates of physics. If you are in time trouble, then you have not finished working, did not finish your studies, could not predict the intentions of the enemy, did not prepare the material part.
                1. Nehist
                  Nehist 16 July 2020 17: 20
                  +5
                  I am a techie !!! Moreover, the practitioner !!! And he looked at the command staff from summer to flesh who, coming from the VVU, didn’t understand a damn and then they don’t know a damn !!! For this, stars with gaps get what beautiful reports they write! And don’t believe it! Even knowing the laws of physics, you don’t know when Newton will fall on you.
                  1. pmkemcity
                    pmkemcity 16 July 2020 18: 01
                    0
                    Quote: Nehist
                    Even knowing the laws of physics, you do not know when Newton will fall on you, however

                    Kipich scares - do not work on a construction site (this is physics). There are also legal laws, and brick levitation does not contradict them the same laughing
                    And all the same, the reports should be written, as without them? And orders. All these are legally significant documents, and someone's life can be behind every piece of paper.
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              1. pmkemcity
                pmkemcity 17 July 2020 06: 55
                -2
                Quote: Fizik M
                about the fact that the VVMU graduate could write a diploma NOT BY SPECIALTY


                He could, dear, because the faculty, although it was called "hydroacoustic", but first of all, it was "radiotechnical", and a diploma in DSP was written, with elements of the then fashionable theory of solitons. If you have exchanged your diploma in "Using flannel cloth for wiping a torpedo SET 65" in secret for fat, then this does not give you the right to insult forum readers with distrust.
                By the way, where did you get that I called myself a rocket launcher? Read carefully.
                1. Fizik M
                  Fizik M 18 August 2020 01: 09
                  0
                  Quote: pmkemcity
                  traded in secret for bacon

                  judging by YOUR "bubbles" YOU changed diploma for bacon
                  1. pmkemcity
                    pmkemcity 18 August 2020 04: 47
                    0
                    Quote: Fizik M
                    diploma on lard

                    You should not insult this worthy product with your ignorance.
                    1. Fizik M
                      Fizik M 18 August 2020 04: 56
                      0
                      Quote: pmkemcity
                      Not worth it

                      worth the monsieur of the supply, worth
                      YOU "took off your pants" by your specialty
                      so - "pick" the micro-assembly further, this is the maximum that YOU are capable of
                      1. pmkemcity
                        pmkemcity 18 August 2020 05: 03
                        0
                        Quote: Fizik M
                        worth the monsieur of the supply, worth


                        Where does so much evil and ignorance come from in you? If you have something to ask in essence - if you please. And so, let's end this pointless dialogue.
                      2. Fizik M
                        Fizik M 18 August 2020 05: 09
                        0
                        Quote: pmkemcity
                        If there is something to ask in essence

                        Monsieur, YOU are all over the place here, so go change your pants
                        your crazy tales about "HydroCaustic" lol you will tell your ducks in the bathroom laughing
      2. Fizik M
        Fizik M 16 July 2020 19: 32
        -1
        Quote: pmkemcity
        And as documents on "this" subject ...

        there is something
        including very serious statistics of the use at sea for real goals
  18. Fizik M
    Fizik M 16 July 2020 19: 29
    +1
    Quote: Ersh
    Our "steamer" drove the Amer from the entrance to our bay to Japan for several days

    lol
    Quote: Ersh
    in 45 divisions in those days, I personally know all the commanders mentioned in the article

    excuse me, but who did YOU have the honor there? "political officer"? - taking into account YOUR ... eeeee "cheap perception of reality" - suspicions seem to arise

    and yes, I personally and very well knew many commanders of the 45th division of the 80s

    Quote: Ersh
    The author, obviously, does not realize that now there are means of detecting the plat on other physical fields, which have good efficiency. Let him take an interest.


    Monsieur, before carrying your "popular pictures" YOU would at least read something on the topic lol
  19. Fizik M
    Fizik M 16 July 2020 20: 35
    +1
    Quote: Ersh
    Particularly "admired" is the reference to the film as a fact

    and what is not a FACT?
    there are more than such FACTS - see, for example, "report" from 1 to FGP
    few?
    see "Animal Division", "Airplane Evasion" belay
  • Devil13
    Devil13 16 July 2020 12: 07
    +1
    Wow, what an interesting article! thank
  • Glory1974
    Glory1974 16 July 2020 12: 21
    +8
    As a conclusion to the article: Despite the technical backwardness, outdated tactics and weapons, the lack of intelligent commanders in sufficient numbers, we could still do so that the enemy did not feel calm and treated us with apprehension. "
    But questions arise.
    1. Why, despite the huge money that the USSR poured into the defense, the submariners had equipment inferior to the enemy. Why, 50 years after 41 years, again, everything is not all right with us?
    2. Where is the training system for commanders? In the United States, during operations in Iraq, only one commander of the unit was removed from his post, as a failed one. And we have plenty of examples when commanders were sent to Chechnya according to the principle: "Either you go to Chechnya, or we will fire them out of conformity."
    What is it that, in case of war, again we will perform heroic deeds and throw on embrasures? Probably it will be so, but I would like it differently, smartly.
    The United States is great in terms of the fact that they can choose a systematic approach to solving the problem, bring the necessary theoretical base and achieve practical results.
    1. Fizik M
      Fizik M 16 July 2020 19: 39
      +1
      Quote: glory1974
      1. Why, despite the huge money that the USSR poured into the defense, the submariners had equipment inferior to the enemy. Why, 50 years after 41 years, again, everything is not all right with us?

      because the SYSTEM lost
      won - SEPARATE COMMANDERS
      Quote: glory1974
      2. Where is the training system for commanders?

      not included in this article by volume, will be in an article about crews
  • Orkraider
    Orkraider 16 July 2020 12: 37
    +1
    Author:
    Maxim Klimov, Alexander Timokhin

    Thank you, comrades, for the article!
    Sad to read, but ...

    Maxim, I heard that physicists are arriving, is this not true? I have little contact with the subfloor.

    And another question, is there currently no “harsh”? Indeed, at present, IPL is being scammed.
    1. timokhin-aa
      16 July 2020 12: 47
      +5
      Not Maxim, I will answer for him.

      Physicists go, but not to all boats and without normal telecontrol, which greatly reduces the effectiveness of the torpedo and its development l / s.

      Is there a sharp or not right now - state secrecy, like everything that relates to submarine operations (minus what the MO itself will make public).

      But in general, yes. laughing
      1. Orkraider
        Orkraider 16 July 2020 12: 58
        +2
        But in general, yes.


        I asked this question to show what is happening now, they show them ".. mother." Sometimes I drop by a couple of lawyers, then I hear news from friends, if they are on the beach.
        Thanks again for the article, comrades, and I am glad that Maxim is writing with you.

        I think interesting articles will be published soon.
      2. K298rtm
        K298rtm 17 July 2020 19: 46
        -1
        I have a simple question - Why, in general, is telecontrol necessary now?
        I will explain my amateurish opinion:
        1. A long time ago (until 1984) all strategists in the Soviet Navy were of the 2nd generation, and the USA already had Los Angeles. The ratio of detection ranges was not in our favor (and at times). Therefore, the covertly tracking PLA occupied a position in the stern KU (ours did not have GPBA). It was possible to calmly shoot from the TU, control the situation, launch a torpedo into the detection zone of the target's SAC on D, from which the target could no longer evade (you can only execute the command - "smoke in the compartments"). The attacked sub, after being found, still had a grave to shoot at the bearing at the torpedo (into milk, so there is no boat there and the TR cannot be disrupted) and start an evasion maneuver (already useless).
        2. In modern conditions, we have (judging by the official statements of the Supreme Commander and below, we and our "partners") comparable detection D (and Ash has more than Ohio), modern SAC has GPBA. Thus (even if, for example, Virginia secretly spies on the strategist, you can also flip it in a mirror - our plane is watching Ohio), a torpedo salvo should be detected immediately and measures should be taken to retaliate, which will lead to the failure of the TU and the need for the shooting plane to evade itself. And for the sake of 1 minute after which you have to give up TR, you need to build an expensive vegetable garden?
        3. Perhaps I do not have enough imagination, but I can not imagine how to apply the TU in modern conditions and for what purposes.
        4. Shooting with TU is associated with the hunt of the general secretaries for wild boars (documentary films with Khrushchev, Brezhnev, Castro are enough).
        5. Respected miners can explain on fingers for amateurs (who, by the way, pay taxes and want to understand "why we need these bells and whistles in the zoo").
        1. timokhin-aa
          17 July 2020 22: 22
          +4
          According to claim 1 - nothing has actually changed, now everything is the same. That is the problem.
          According to paragraph 2 - we have a gap with the Americans narrowed and very much, but it still exists. They hear us further than we do them.

          A simple question is a battle under ice, at shallow depths, a torpedo hitch catches a bunch of reflected false signals from ice, how will it be induced?
          The second question is shooting "for hindrance" - the TU makes it possible to bring the torpedo to the target's submarine hull even with the use of the last SGPD, but the SSN is not.
          A torpedo with SSN in a close-range battle, when the enemy uses GPA means, can go to his own boat.
          Options for TU sea.
          Therefore, Americans shoot almost 100% with TU. And therefore, it was often more difficult to distinguish between a volley of torpedoes with technical specifications on them from a volley of torpedoes without technical specifications (according to the characteristic or low-frequency sound when closing the covers of the technical specifications) to choose how to evade.
          1. georg 2
            georg 2 3 August 2020 02: 33
            0
            our gap with the Americans has narrowed and very much, but it still exists. They hear us further than we hear them.

            This is due to what they hear us further, can you explain?
        2. timokhin-aa
          18 July 2020 00: 04
          +2
          Here is a picture of a boat evading defeat, jamming with the help of VFO devices, which completely clog the torpedo's CLS, although the attack boat's SAC perfectly "guides" the target, due to the fact that it works at other frequencies.
          TU allows you to conduct a torpedo through interference to the target and switch to the CLS when the target is nearby and no SRS will help.
    2. Fizik M
      Fizik M 16 July 2020 19: 42
      +1
      Quote: Orkraider
      heard that physicists are coming in, is this not true?

      yes, the decision was made back in June 2012. (had a direct relationship to this), to which large grandmothers were thrown from the then nailed "Lomonos" and "Yama"
      Quote: Orkraider
      And another question, is there currently no “harsh”?

      A few years ago, there was a very sharp (and successful) Commander on the "Cheetah".
      Now he is "raising the national economy."
      1. Alceers
        Alceers 16 July 2020 20: 54
        -2
        Quote: Fizik M
        Quote: Orkraider
        And another question, is there currently no “harsh”?

        A few years ago, there was a very sharp (and successful) Commander on the "Cheetah".
        Now he "raises

        Heh. Do you know the paradox.? The fact is that as soon as such a commander goes a little higher, he starts mercilessly crushing everything that he allowed himself but already in his subordinates. And I have not seen exceptions ...
        1. Fizik M
          Fizik M 16 July 2020 21: 30
          0
          Quote: Alceers
          as soon as such a commander goes a little higher

          and higher went ANOTHER
          and there are a lot of paradoxes, incl. by "organs" (operating in the "parasite" mode)
      2. andreitk20
        andreitk20 17 July 2020 23: 26
        0
        A few years ago, there was a very sharp (and successful) Commander on the "Cheetah".
        Now he is "raising the national economy."
        Who is this?
  • Aag
    Aag 16 July 2020 13: 03
    +2
    Awesome article! Thanks to the authors.
    Still, it is necessary, as many have suggested, to introduce the ability to evaluate published articles ...
    Depressing the established practice of fraud, careerism ... Well, let's not talk about sad. Real submariners, glory and honor!
    Above in the comments already asked those who know in more detail about "Aport", "Atrina". I join.
    And another question: how on the attacked submarine distinguish a practical torpedo from a combat one?
    1. timokhin-aa
      16 July 2020 13: 29
      +5
      Above in the comments already asked those who know in more detail about "Aport", "Atrina". I join.


      For example.
      http://www.k-244.ru/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=174&Itemid=161

      And another question: how on the attacked submarine distinguish a practical torpedo from a combat one?


      No way. They are indistinguishable. You never know if the American is provoking you, or the war is already underway.
      1. Aag
        Aag 16 July 2020 17: 01
        -1
        "For instance.
        http://www.k-244.ru/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=174&Itemid=161"
        Thank you.
        "No way. They are indistinguishable. You never know if the American is provoking you, or the war is already going on for real."
        Tin! Well, then the Americans are also risky guys, catching blanks with their corps. It’s clear that when firing on their submarines, it’s not fatal to intervene between, it seems. But still ...
        And that from a legal point of view, this bespridel is not regulated in any way?! And if the Air Force, VKS begin to throw racquets? Is it just us (the Strategic Rocket Forces) who have infringed on our rights?)))
        1. timokhin-aa
          16 July 2020 17: 03
          +6
          And how to regulate what all parties unanimously deny? We also anneal. Without torpedoes, but in other ways.
          The underwater world is cruel.

          As for catching with hulls, they didn't plan. They had to "copy" the torpedo, work out the SGPD on it, fix the torpedo's departure to interference, and break away.

          The blank in the case was a failure with them.
          1. Aag
            Aag 16 July 2020 17: 09
            0
            "As for catching with hulls, they did not plan. They had to" copy "the torpedo, work out the SGPD on it, fix the departure of the torpedo to interference, break away."
            It’s clear. The captains of those submarines in childhood argued that they ran across the road before flying cars, someone closer ..)))
            1. Fizik M
              Fizik M 16 July 2020 20: 07
              0
              Quote: AAG
              The captains of those submarines in childhood argued that they ran across the road in front of flying cars, someone closer ..)))

              personally diverged from the submarine in a couple of hundred meters (and at that moment was in a sonar cabin)
              in the year 94, the submarine "collected" on itself THREE two-torpedo salvo of our nuclear submarines (971 - hunter, and the tactical group of the BDR and RTM in close protection), torpedoes came to it from three sides (and most were raised with guidance)
              1. andreitk20
                andreitk20 17 July 2020 23: 27
                +1
                personally diverged from the submarine in a couple of hundred meters (and at that moment was in a sonar cabin)
                distance as determined by ear?
                1. timokhin-aa
                  18 July 2020 00: 11
                  +2
                  Maxim's answer:

                  Target VIP was 36
                  further was the assessment of the navigator Temnikov ("this cannot be")
                  to which he wrote a malicious commentary in the BIP Tregub (Temnikov and Tregub in the subsequent KPL 971 pr)
          2. Fizik M
            Fizik M 16 July 2020 20: 08
            +1
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            As for catching the hulls - they didn’t plan it.

            they wouldn’t refuse to drag our torpedo into their hull
      2. Fizik M
        Fizik M 16 July 2020 21: 31
        +3
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        No way. They are indistinguishable. You never know if the American is provoking you, or the war is already underway.

        exactly
        including that's why anti torpedoes on our submarines are so important, especially NSNF
  • pmkemcity
    pmkemcity 16 July 2020 17: 00
    -3
    Quote: Nehist
    At this time, even the charter of the guard duty must be changed !!! Which is written not just in blood but in great blood

    There is nothing eternal in this world. Everything flows, everything changes. Don't consider me retrograde. But a commander, on whose conscience 150 souls (and millions of innocent African Americans) and more than one billion of the people's money, cannot be "harsh." The ship, and even more so the boat, creatures inert by nature, and "harshness" abhorrent to the entire fleet. The commander must be impudent, but impudent toward the enemy, not toward his superiors, and even more so, not in the "Golden Anchor" restaurant. And the audacity of a good commander is primarily based on knowledge and experience.
    1. Fizik M
      Fizik M 16 July 2020 19: 46
      0
      Quote: pmkemcity
      cannot be "sharp"

      Monsieur is political
      "moo-oink" (translated from 671V to BDR) who is not mentioned by his last name in the article - Khrapovich (the accident with KRO on BDR is his), "just a good person" (it's just a pity that there is no such position ...)
      "Not a good person" is Makarenko
      Only in the war Makarenko would have “filled” the enemy, and most likely would have returned home (with a crew).
      But the "kind" Khraptovich - and would have ruined himself mediocre, both the ship and the crew
      1. pmkemcity
        pmkemcity 17 July 2020 05: 13
        +1
        Quote: Fizik M
        Monsieur is political
        "moo-oink" (translated from 671V to BDR) who is not mentioned by his last name in the article - Khrapovich (the accident with KRO on BDR is his), "just a good person" (it's just a pity that there is no such position ...)
        "Not a good person" is Makarenko
        Only in the war Makarenko would have “filled” the enemy, and most likely would have returned home (with a crew).
        But the "kind" Khraptovich - and would have ruined himself mediocre, both the ship and the crew

        Guessing is not a thankful job. It happened the other way around, when the gorlopan and the bully showed miracles of cowardice, and the bespectacled assistant professor, gritting his teeth in silence, went on the attack.
        Before the battle on the Alme river (just north of Kachi), General Kiryakov promised Commander-in-Chief Menshikov: “Yes, we will throw their hats!” And Menshikov was so sure of the victory that he invited the Sevastopol team to look at the battle. Those settled on a hill, started a picnic. Well, what they had to see is well known to everyone. This was not an ordinary military fiasco, but the first Russian defeat in forty years! Kiryakov even moved a little with his mind - he was later found somewhere in the bushes of the completely lost, and he muttered all the same: “A horse was killed under me! A horse was killed under me! ”
  • bad
    bad 16 July 2020 17: 08
    15
    Thanks for the work and the article. Interestingly, in our Navy, are any steps being taken to catch up with the United States in sonar and the detection of underwater objects?
    1. Fizik M
      Fizik M 16 July 2020 20: 04
      -1
      Quote: malo
      Interestingly, in our Navy, are any steps being taken to catch up with the United States in sonar and the detection of underwater objects?

      yes, the work is very serious
      we are lagging behind, but not significantly (and this, given the technological lag, is our real achievement)
  • prodi
    prodi 16 July 2020 18: 08
    0
    It seems to me that kipesh with the sketched acoustic trail of submarines is exaggerated. Well, this could work as long as the enemy does not suspect anything and does not take countermeasures, however, it is possible to emit a "unmasking" signal in antiphase in almost any direction
    1. timokhin-aa
      16 July 2020 18: 58
      +3
      Which did the commander of the K-492 before the raid in Seattle.

      The article is written.

      The trouble is that some discretes cannot be removed.
      1. Fizik M
        Fizik M 16 July 2020 20: 03
        +1
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Which was done by the K-492 commander before the raid in Seattle. The article says.

        there he did something else
    2. Fizik M
      Fizik M 16 July 2020 19: 47
      +1
      Quote: prodi
      however, it is possible to emit a "unmasking" signal in antiphase in almost any direction

      theoretically
      almost extremely difficult (because the low range)
  • Alceers
    Alceers 16 July 2020 20: 26
    +1
    Well Again Klimov on Shevchenko and SF rolls a barrel. ... Although he was well done by the way, he had already thrashed ichthyosaurs ... And then Timokhin and Klimov Paralyzed all the work. Instead of preparing the crews and inventing new tactical ones, now all the flagships again, as according to their previous opuses, the special analysis officers will give birth to detailed analyzes, with analysis and comments on each item ... Let me feel Maxim.
    1. Fizik M
      Fizik M 16 July 2020 20: 51
      0
      something tells me wink that you will overwrite your posts again
      so screenshots, copies, are already made angry
      Quote: Alceers
      Well Again Klimov on Shevchenko and SF rolls a barrel

      Do you have a valid objection? especially on the facts of lies Shevchenko
      Quote: Alceers
      that by the way well done, already ichthyosaurs once more had killed

      I am aware, only this saboteur bought with giblets will end like Zhandarov
      By the way, don't be shy, and tell me that Shevchenko LOBBIES: "Cunt"
      Let me answer some very simple questions about Kant:
      1. Is there AT LEAST ONE SHOT in "combat configuration" (with AML)? Huh? 2009 not to offer, it was AT ALL "another Kant" (with "Ceramics", CA-28 ...)
      2. Why "Whist-2" was put "on the sidelines" during the FORGETTED "tests" - so as not to "interfere with Kant"? You have "Blow-1", so put it on!
      3. How many nuclear submarines of the Northern Fleet have already been visited by "Kants" with an EXPLOSIVE LITHIUM-ION BATTERY (having massive failures of the control and protection system)? Do you want a "losharika" on the torpedo deck?
      ...
      to be continued, there are still many points (including the frankly sloppy performance characteristics of "Kant")

      Quote: Alceers
      how, according to their past opuses, the special investigators will give birth to detailed analyzes, with analysis and comments on each item ... Let me feel like Maxim.

      Monsieur, only bad luck
      LIE "who wrote the comments", and oh, how they lied (and LIE to the Presidential Administration, and I don't think that the Deputy Head of the State Educational Institution (who therefore signed the final document, wants to be "extreme")
      and more problemsС - I have documents confirming this
      1. Alceers
        Alceers 16 July 2020 21: 11
        +3
        Maxim just needs to be adequate in everyday life and communication, you look, and people will stretch. Do you really believe that after your pearls and antics, at least someone takes you seriously? Not to mention the answers to questions for which you can sit down? Just for divulging something.
        That’s why you insert the stories of honored grandfathers with inflation of cheeks as evidence and hysteria here with questions for which you have no answer and apparently will no longer be. Since no one wants to have affairs with such an individual. Watering insults at once in a row, scribble complaints in Sportloto. You are even here in a permanent bath.

        And this is even with an initially friendly attitude towards your work.
        And about the "lied" you want to say that you read what they write about you and your opuses? Make me funny the right word ...
        1. Fizik M
          Fizik M 16 July 2020 21: 22
          0
          Quote: Alceers
          Do you really believe that after your pearls and antics, at least someone takes you seriously?

          I'm not interested in the opinions of RATS
          but the reaction of the old admirals, for example, at the conference on deck aviation on 30.10.19/XNUMX/XNUMX was very clear, and Vitka Chirkov was very concretely "undermined" by this (not even my presence and participation (who I said at once), namely the attitude to me and active communication with me from the admirals
          Quote: Alceers
          Not to mention the answers to questions for which you can sit down?

          say the right words
          we must try to make sure that for the LIE in the response to the Presidential Administration, the so-called "ohFissiers" would SIT down, or at least they would be kicked out of the fleet.
          Quote: Alceers
          hysteria

          hyster, monsieur "ohfysier" (by the grace of the payroll) here YOU
          from FACTS, to which YOU have nothing to object (all attempts thereof were uploaded for YOU by a "face about a table")
          Quote: Alceers
          And about the "lied" you want to say that you read what they write about you and your opuses?

          just put a smile
          laughing
          and "something" I have in copies, with SIGNATURES wink
        2. Fizik M
          Fizik M 16 July 2020 21: 35
          -1
          Quote: Alceers
          Make me funny the right word ...

          about "funny"
          a baaaaalshim fan of throwing BZ overboard in "the form of a 4 torpedo salvo" (as in the film) was "Comrade Zarenkov" wink
          ask him, on occasion, how the "stubs of the KBR-T" of his former crew BLOWED him and BLOWED him (with his "new" 4TZ) in the summer of 2018 laughing
          1. timokhin-aa
            18 July 2020 15: 34
            +1
            typo, not 2018, but 2008
  • Alien From
    Alien From 16 July 2020 20: 46
    +2
    Thanks a lot to the authors! I read the article in one go! And we bow to our submariners !!!
  • Fizik M
    Fizik M 16 July 2020 21: 04
    0
    Quote: Alceers
    Let’s feel Maxim.

    Zarenkov "heartfelt greetings" (I feel he will have to write a lot about my "next moves").
    For one, ask how the "imprisoning Klimov" which was with him ended wink
    Validolchik and a glass of water do not forget to have on hand laughing
  • Fizik M
    Fizik M 16 July 2020 21: 25
    +1
    Quote: Alceers
    You just need Maxim to be adequate

    if I were “adequate” (according to YOUR “rat logic”), then the APRK “Omsk” would leave “Zvezda” not in 2008, but in 4-5 years. And this is just one example.
    So I'd rather be a "thug" and a "fool".
    So you can convey to Zarenkov
  • Polar Bear
    Polar Bear 16 July 2020 21: 58
    0
    In the submarine war, alas, we lost as in the cold war, although we had every chance of turning the tide in ten fifteen years if we had not lost the country.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • K298rtm
    K298rtm 17 July 2020 00: 11
    +2
    1. Thanks to the authors for the article.
    2. Regarding detection-classification: first, the signal must be detected (seen, heard ...), and then analyzed - the primary classification, etc. (as M. Zhvanetsky said - "it must at least come").
    3. The lag behind the USA in computer technology did not allow the USSR to implement complex algorithms in the SAC (they are described in JASA). Americans increased Dobn due to processing, and in the USSR, antenna sizes increased.
    4. The spectral characteristics of the USSR plane (50 Hz discrete, 2-row propeller shafts for strategists) facilitated both detection and classification.
    5. I did not understand the K-500 episode: What did the miners charge there (were they on the BS with empty TAs)? What about those on duty?
    6. About the 4 torpedo salvo of the Cheetah. The fact is that with a 2 torpedo from a distance of more than 30 cabs, the target leaves the SSN range of the uset (you can check on Ш26).
    7. The fact that the US planes use GPA simulating torpedoes is a fact (there was such a case in the 80s in the North). It worked for about 20 seconds. (As I understand it, they know that ours took about a minute to answer, if everything is done quickly and correctly).
    1. timokhin-aa
      17 July 2020 22: 53
      +2
      Maxim asked to post the answer to you (he is banned):

      2. Regarding detection-classification: first, the signal must be detected (seen, heard ...), and then analyzed - the primary classification, etc. (as M. Zhvanetsky said - "it must at least come")


      the fact of the matter is that in the U.S. Navy, the classification stage often preempted detection (advance tuning of frequency filters for specific discrete of our nuclear submarines)

      5. I did not understand the K-500 episode: What did the miners charge there (were they on the BS with empty TAs)? What about those on duty?


      it was not the miners who wrote, most likely the TA was transferred to the attendants, it was unlikely that they went from the base with the "attendants" - because the corrosion resistance of SET-65 "left much to be desired"

      6. About the 4 torpedo salvo of the Cheetah. The fact is that with a 2 torpedo from a distance of more than 30 cabs, the target leaves the SSN range of the uset (you can check on Ш26).


      in the same way, the target departs from 4 torpedo salvos, maneuvering and moving
      even without gps
      Zarenkov (knowing his "love" for 4 torpedo tubes), his former KBR-T "caught"
      and with SGPD (in they will be in battle with a probability of 0,999) everything is generally "sour" - torpedoes will stupidly go to them
      for this reason, experienced commanders tried to approach a short distance and accurately and quickly shoot single shots
      in this film, Churilov, not knowing where the enemy was, shot at the noise of the torpedo hoping to "block the horizon" to the maximum with what he had in the TA (4 TA), but this is absolutely ineffective, and most likely the enemy's submarine after the volley of Churilov's torpedoes is NOT WILL BE

      how to act in such a situation was worked out in detail, and sent out by the "established order", incl. VMA (Klimov's document from Kamchatka 2006)

      7. The fact that the US planes use GPA simulating torpedoes is a fact (there was such a case in the 80s in the North). It worked for about 20 seconds. (As I understand it, they know that ours took about a minute to answer, if everything is done quickly and correctly).


      possible faster (much faster)
      1. K298rtm
        K298rtm 19 July 2020 08: 43
        0
        1. Thank you for your detailed answer.
        2. In my opinion, it was useless to send materials on this issue to the VMA. It was necessary, so to speak, on the floor below (to get into the right hands). Incidentally, this is not too late to do now (the problem has not gone anywhere).
        1. timokhin-aa
          19 July 2020 12: 02
          +1
          From Maxim


          It is a pity that he was banned, would add something to the papers. There really interesting things were offered.
          1. K298rtm
            K298rtm 19 July 2020 13: 10
            +1
            If it's not difficult, send me an email (what was posted here and what else is interesting for Maxim). Mail [email protected] (my curiosity is not idle).
          2. The comment was deleted.
      2. The comment was deleted.
        1. timokhin-aa
          21 July 2020 12: 41
          +2
          This is what it means a person does not speak English. the Americans do not hide it.
          Moreover, ours now also technically can (and some do).

          Stop signing incompetence, it's ridiculous.
          It's like a bum from a trash heap who walks openly and mocks a person in a BMW X5 because the latter does not know where to take aluminum cans from the trash heap. With scornful chuckles.

          The same feeling from you.
          Stop embarrassing yourself.
          1. The comment was deleted.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • TermNachTer
    TermNachTer 17 July 2020 11: 42
    +2
    Noisiness is of course a problem, but as a hydroacoustician, albeit a civilian, Kherson sailor of the Republic of Poland, I can say that not everything is as easy and simple as the author writes. Our teachers, retired sailors, incl. and divers, said that under water there are many interesting features that you can use wisely, or you can "burn out" on them. So, I think that at the end of the 80s the situation was by no means a loss. The country was sold by Humpbacked, I will not talk about the economy, I am not strong in it.
    1. timokhin-aa
      17 July 2020 13: 02
      -1
      What is the habit of speaking out just to speak out?
      1. TermNachTer
        TermNachTer 17 July 2020 13: 47
        +1
        Are you talking about yourself?
        1. timokhin-aa
          17 July 2020 22: 08
          +1
          No, it's me about you.
          1. TermNachTer
            TermNachTer 18 July 2020 16: 55
            +1
            Have you heard anything about hydrology? Do you understand what processes take place under water? How are high and low frequency sound waves propagated? Or so, just to blurt out something?))
            1. Storekeeper
              Storekeeper 19 July 2020 06: 26
              -1
              The author has an article on this site dedicated to hydroacoustics. https://topwar.ru/169164-protivolodochnaja-oborona-korabli-protiv-podlodok-chast-1-gidroakustika.html Read an interesting article for you as a specialist.
              1. TermNachTer
                TermNachTer 19 July 2020 14: 03
                0
                I think I understand a little more in hydroacoustics than the author of the article. All the same, I read smart books, studied technology, and put it into practice. The field sonar differs from the combat one only in details, the principle of operation is the same.
                1. timokhin-aa
                  19 July 2020 15: 57
                  -1
                  Thinking this is not yours at all, one of the authors, who is responsible for the hydroacoustic unit, is an anti-submarine officer by education, a submarine officer with an atomic submarine, with experience in catching Los Angeles, after retirement - a leading specialist in the development of marine underwater weapons, then - a high-ranking employee in the apparatus of the Minister of Defense S. Ivanov, while he was at his post.

                  So come back as you evolve from a field sonar to a submarine combat sonar.
                  1. TermNachTer
                    TermNachTer 19 July 2020 16: 55
                    +2
                    I’m smiling at you))) an anti-submarine officer, he could sit all his service in Moscow, at the General Staff Building. We also taught retired officers of the Navy, but not theorists, but practitioners. And the fact that he is a leading specialist in the development of underwater weapons may not mean his excellent knowledge in this area, but good connections in the right circles)))
                    I have a great opportunity to observe this up close and personally, only now it is connected with aviation.
                    1. Cyril G ...
                      Cyril G ... 19 July 2020 18: 10
                      0
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      he could have served his entire service in Moscow, in the General Staff Building.


                      Who told you that it is good for an officer to serve in Moscow?
                      1. TermNachTer
                        TermNachTer 19 July 2020 18: 11
                        0
                        I'm not saying that very well. In your opinion, is Novaya Zemlya better?
                      2. Cyril G ...
                        Cyril G ... 19 July 2020 18: 27
                        0
                        I can answer for Kamchatka, Chukotka and Magadan. I liked it there. Visiting institutions in Moscow felt like throwing up ...
                      3. TermNachTer
                        TermNachTer 19 July 2020 20: 44
                        0
                        I can only envy you. You are an endangered type of officer))))
                      4. Cyril G ...
                        Cyril G ... 19 July 2020 21: 24
                        0
                        At least I have something to remember ...
                  2. Cyril G ...
                    Cyril G ... 19 July 2020 21: 26
                    0
                    I personally now regret that I did not get on Shikotan as a lieutenant. But Novaya Zemlya has its own charm for sure.
                  3. timokhin-aa
                    19 July 2020 21: 44
                    +2
                    There are typhoons in the winter. Kamchatka is just that. Chukotka, I don't know, it's boring there. Empty. There, in comparison with Kamchatka and the shores of the Sea of ​​Okhotsk, there are simply no people, no one lives.
                  4. Cyril G ...
                    Cyril G ... 19 July 2020 21: 46
                    0
                    Quote: timokhin-aa
                    Chukotka, I don't know, it's boring there. Empty.


                    It's good there!
                  5. timokhin-aa
                    19 July 2020 21: 49
                    +2
                    Summer.!
                    And not in winter. And the winter there is clear how long. In winter there is only good that the authorities are far away and that's it.
        2. timokhin-aa
          19 July 2020 20: 45
          +1
          Specifically, this officer served in Kamchatka, first in the PLA, then a little at headquarters.
    2. timokhin-aa
      19 July 2020 16: 38
      +2
      Clarification - the leading designer of the State Scientific and Production Enterprise "Region", then as an assistant to Admiral Suchkov, who worked as an adviser to the Minister of Defense on the Navy.
      Serdyukov was already a minister then, I was mistaken.
  • SovAr238A
    SovAr238A 17 July 2020 21: 35
    +1
    Well cool.
    For several years I read the memoirs of our submarine and there was a lot of information, which the vast majority do not even guess about.
    You have accumulated everything that I once read.
    Thank you very much for the titanic work.
    1. timokhin-aa
      18 July 2020 00: 07
      +4
      You are welcome. They wrote for a long time, altered six times almost completely. But it seemed to work ...
      1. Storekeeper
        Storekeeper 19 July 2020 06: 14
        +1
        No wonder we tried, it turned out very interesting! Your style of one of the best authors on VO is visible. It is no less interesting to read your comments on the article. It's a pity Klimov was again banned, he should be calmer and not give in to provocations.
        1. timokhin-aa
          19 July 2020 12: 04
          +1
          Well, here is the main texture of Klimov, not mine. Although we ran into this article specifically, we rewrote it six times, from the source 40 percent remained.
  • Cyril G ...
    Cyril G ... 18 July 2020 13: 17
    0
    By the way, such a moment, and the PLUR are in constant readiness on our submarines in the TA?
  • blackies
    blackies 18 July 2020 19: 38
    -3
    nonsense and "blah blah" (in American). Authors - "experts" - provocateurs, on likes in the internet.
    1. timokhin-aa
      19 July 2020 12: 03
      +1
      And what is the provocation here?
      1. Svlad
        Svlad 19 July 2020 22: 57
        0
        Thank you for the article. The best this year for sure. Well done.
        1. timokhin-aa
          19 July 2020 23: 32
          +1
          You are welcome. We tried our best.
  • beeper
    beeper 19 July 2020 23: 24
    +1
    For a long time I have not read such interesting Articles on the Internet (even on the website "Autonomics" wink )! good

    And read in one breath
    (like the book, according to the link in the Article, about Admiral Rikoveri, I also read a good half in one breath! "Heroes of Bangor" will be next.) yes !

    Bravo and Thank you to the Dear Authors and VO for this! hi
    1. timokhin-aa
      19 July 2020 23: 32
      +1
      Heroes of Bangor highly recommend. The spirit of the age conveys like nothing. Especially details from a trip to America (no visa) laughing
      1. beeper
        beeper 19 July 2020 23: 36
        +1
        hi Thank you Huge-such Pleasure from reading your Article, straight is the culmination of the month (or even the year! winked )! good
        I will definitely read "Heroes of Bangor", like others following the links in the Article!
        Sincerely! soldier

        P.S. I didn't understand who so quickly slammed my Plus to you and why ?! what
        But nothing, no need to be sad, it will be in my opinion! wink
        1. Svlad
          Svlad 20 July 2020 01: 34
          +2
          Apparently cheers patriots slamzili. The article is even, you won’t get to the bottom, so they stuck their tongues in one place.
        2. timokhin-aa
          20 July 2020 07: 50
          +3
          Both me and Klimov have a "fan club" here. Run over, minus periodically. Fight enemies. Well, you got it, apparently.
          1. 41st region
            41st region 20 July 2020 14: 16
            +2
            The article is excellent, if only because few people remained indifferent.
            And, as always, you have to rely on people who use the entrusted technique by 101%. Very familiar. "Die, but do it. Better yet, do it and don't die."
            And Kamchatka ...
            As Yu.A. Senkevich, "I think Kamchatka is the most beautiful place on Earth ..."
            1. timokhin-aa
              20 July 2020 18: 46
              +1
              Only there the bear can eat. You will leave the need to celebrate and remember what your name was.
              This is a fat minus of Kamchatka in my opinion.
              1. Cyril G ...
                Cyril G ... 20 July 2020 20: 20
                0
                Schaub the bear ate you THERE you have to be an extremely unlucky type.
                1. timokhin-aa
                  20 July 2020 21: 19
                  +1
                  "A little further north" I was almost eaten by a bear. In the visual visibility from the village development, in the area of ​​intense visits by people, how intense it can be, when approximately 8000 people live on the square with Moscow.
                  But there are much less "bear-dangerous" regions.
                  1. Vladimir Mitin_2
                    Vladimir Mitin_2 14 August 2020 23: 16
                    0
                    At one time, the overhead watch on the square in Bichevinka used weapons against bears
                    1. timokhin-aa
                      15 August 2020 11: 04
                      0
                      Bechevinka is full of them.
          2. beeper
            beeper 20 July 2020 21: 23
            0
            hi For a long time already, I have such "fans" (of various ranks), not only in VO! smile

            I have already read half of the book "Heroes of Bangor", too, with the greatest pleasure, there are many interesting specifics in it, vividly described and sensibly illustrated! good
            From ships, I have always liked submarines and have always been keenly interested in everything connected with them. winked
            Favorite childhood books - "Heroes of the Deep Sea" and "20 Thousand Leagues Under the Sea".
            Yes, and with Plus I rehearsed in my own way, after all, too, "from violent". yes
  • Paratrooper
    Paratrooper 20 July 2020 15: 39
    +1
    Thanks, good article.
    1. timokhin-aa
      20 July 2020 18: 47
      +1
      Please, we tried.
  • pmkemcity
    pmkemcity 21 July 2020 10: 51
    0
    Quote: timokhin-aa
    This is the whole point, that we are doing piece production and the Americans have stuck to the stream of serial constantly updated products and they always have everything modern, and not so expensive.
    And here if something is updated on a boat every 20 years, then it's already a miracle.

    It only seems so. The Americans are not so stupid as to put a general civilian element base on a nuclear submarine. All the same goes in a special version. Another conversation is that they use "civil" architecture and algorithms, which simplifies the process of production and programming, and widens the circle of hardware specialists. But in Lenin's language, "they are far from the people", these universal specialists, and solve problems without steaming, "in large numbers."
  • pmkemcity
    pmkemcity 21 July 2020 11: 26
    -1
    Quote: K298rtm
    The lag behind the United States in computer technology did not allow the USSR to implement complex algorithms in the SAC (they are described in JASA). The Americans, due to processing, increased the Dobn, and in the USSR, the dimensions of the antennas were increased.

    The antennas were increased according to the size of the boats allowed, and this is good.
  • georg 2
    georg 2 29 July 2020 13: 29
    0
    For a long time, our submariners were not able to use the same methods, both for reasons of greater noise and a long misunderstanding of its nature (in terms of discrete components), and for reasons of the outdated "ideology" of constructing hydroacoustic complexes, which did not have (up to “Skat-3”) standard means of narrow-band spectral analysis. “Efficiency” of full-time domestic SK74 spectral analyzers (attached to Rubikon and Skat) is characterized by the phrase: “Unsuitable for work on low-noise targets.”
    .
    Why didn't the authors write anything about our developments in the mid-80s in Polyarny? Where is the objectivity?
    1. Fizik M
      Fizik M 18 August 2020 01: 02
      0
      Quote: georg 2
      Why didn't the authors write anything about our developments in the mid-80s in Polyarny? Where is the objectivity?

      will be written, and objectivity, YOU, Mr. Bukovsky will receive in full
  • xomaNN
    xomaNN 3 September 2020 16: 39
    0
    Curious opus crying
    It was interesting to study the fact of the war under water. No wonder the commanders of the submarine of the USSR Navy were given orders in the 70-80s
  • Ilya Vasilievich
    Ilya Vasilievich 8 September 2020 16: 31
    0
    Thank. To the point and interesting.
    Here is just a quote that Americans recognized by handwriting who steers the boat, raises some doubts.
  • George Davydov
    George Davydov 23 September 2020 23: 48
    +1
    The article can be viewed from both a professional point of view and a political one based on a class approach. The bottom line is quite simple: two worlds - socialist and capitalist. The world of socialism is a society of social equality and justice, the world of capitalism is a society with a hired form of slavery. Each world has its own ideology, and therefore ideological opponents, for whom: some - the capitalists encroach on their rights and freedoms, wanting to appropriate territory and natural resources, the people to optimize and force these riches to be extracted and supplied for them, etc. And the capitalists are looking for those who can help to implement all this. Now we see it with the naked eye. And since they found and did it, then from this point of view, the topic should be considered: some are looking for means and methods to actively resist the external enemy, and the internal enemy, using their official position, limits it, using old stuff, which led to defeat in cold war. And this, if we proceed from the publication, remember the Gorbachevs and Yakovlevs, became the reason for our current existence. Therefore, I agree with the quoted comment that the example of the older generations is not just useful, but very useful. It's time to draw conclusions!

    “… In practice, it comes to examples on the verge of idiocy, when non-standard and successful actions of our submarines, incl. against the latest submarines of the US Navy, are not investigated and passed on as experience "simply because" in the reporting documents they are "castrated" to "fit" the provisions and clauses of long-outdated guidelines ... do not be afraid to violate the guidelines. "

    “The governing documents of the naval submarine forces are outdated long ago, to the point that it is simply impossible to carry out the way it is written in them: in battle it would be suicide. In practice, it comes to examples on the verge of idiocy, when non-standard and successful actions of our submarines, incl. against the latest submarines of the US Navy, are not investigated or transmitted as experience "simply because" they are "castrated" in the reporting documents to "fit" for the provisions and clauses of long-outdated guidelines ... "

    “Nevertheless, the initiative officers and commanders of the Navy did everything possible and impossible in the underwater confrontation. However, this was not always the case. Often it was necessary to "freeze" and act literally on the brink of disaster. But the example from the older generations is very useful, and very interesting, don't even hesitate. "
  • Germanium
    Germanium 28 September 2020 17: 06
    0
    Very good article! The video of the escape from the torpedo attack was especially amusing: the target heading angle is 85.
    Trim 2 aft, turbine 40, and periscope. It is clear that ordinary teams were recorded on the video.