Military Review

On the unity of the Russian world on the example of the grandchildren of Mstislav Udatny

80

Unfortunately, in the course of numerous discussions about the unity of the Russian world, I have never heard of the fact given below, namely: Prince of Novgorod and Vladimir-Suzdal Alexander Yaroslavich Nevsky and Prince of Galicia and Volyn Lev Danilovich (the one whose name the city of Lviv is named after) - cousins: their grandfather, Prince of Novgorod and Galicia Mstislav Udatny, - the father of their mothers, Theodosius Mstislavna and Anna Mstislavna, respectively. I called Alexander Yaroslavich the first because he was born in 1220, and Lev Danilovich - in 1228. It is interesting to note that Alexander Nevsky from 1248 was the last titled Grand Duke of Kiev, but he himself never visited Kiev and was not involved in Kiev affairs.


To identify family and hereditary relationships, it is advisable to trace the genealogy of Mstislav Udatny and his famous grandchildren a little deeper. Mstislav Udatny himself on the paternal side:
- the son of Mstislav Rostislavich the Brave, Prince of Smolensk and Novgorod; grandson of Rostislav Mstislavich, prince of Smolensk, Novgorod and Kiev;
- the great-grandson of Mstislav Vladimirovich the Great, Prince of Novgorod, Rostov and Kiev;
- great-great-grandson of Vladimir Vsevolodovich Monomakh, prince of Smolensk, Chernihiv, Pereyaslavsky and Kiev;
- great-great-great-grandson of Vsevolod Yaroslavich, prince of Pereyaslavsky, Chernihiv and Kiev;
- great-great-great-great-grandson of Yaroslav Vladimirovich the Wise, the last ruler of a unified Kievan Rus.

Mother of Mstislav Udatny, Theodosius Glebovna:
- daughter of Gleb Rostislavich, Prince of Ryazan;
- the granddaughter of Rostislav Yaroslavich, prince of Pronsk, Ryazan and Murom;
- great-granddaughter of Yaroslav Svyatoslavich, prince of Murom and Chernigov;
- great-great-granddaughter of Prince Svyatoslav Yaroslavich, Prince of Volyn, Chernihiv and Kiev;
- great-great-great-granddaughter of the aforementioned Yaroslav the Wise.

Mstislav married the baptized daughter of the Polovtsian khan Maria Kotyanovna. Thus, Alexander Nevsky and Lev Galitsky for a quarter were Polovtsy.

Alexander Nevsky on the paternal side:
- the son of Yaroslav Vsevolodovich, Prince of Pereyaslavl, Pereyaslavl-Zalessky, Novgorod, Kiev and Vladimir-Suzdal;
- the grandson of Vsevolod Yuryevich the Big Nest, Prince of Kiev, Pereyaslavl-Zalessky and Vladimir-Suzdal;
- great-grandson of Yuri Vladimirovich Dolgoruky, Prince of Rostov-Suzdal and Kiev;
- great-great-grandson of the aforementioned Vladimir Monomakh.

Leo Galitsky on the paternal side:
- the son of Daniel Romanovich, prince of Galicia, Volyn and Kiev;
- the grandson of Roman Mstislavich, prince of Novgorod, Volyn, Galician and Kiev;
- the great-grandson of Mstislav Izyaslavich, prince of Pereyaslavsky, Volyn and Kiev;
- great-great-grandson of Izyaslav Mstislavich, prince of Kursk, Polotsk and Pereyaslav;
- great-great-great-grandson of the aforementioned Mstislav the Great;
- great-great-great-great-grandson of the aforementioned Vladimir Monomakh.

Thus, Alexander and Leo are cousins ​​of their mothers, and of their fathers they are cousins ​​of their grandfather and grandson, respectively.

From Alexander Nevsky come the princes of the Principality of Moscow.

From Leo of Galicia come the single princes of the Galicia-Volyn principality, who ruled until 1325, when they were first replaced by the Polish Piast dynasty, and from 1340 - the Lithuanian Gediminovich dynasty. The principality itself ceased to exist in 1392 as a result of its division between Poland (Galicia) and Lithuania (Volhynia). In 1452, Volyn was also incorporated into Poland.
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  1. Finches
    Finches 14 July 2020 05: 47 New
    +1
    In Ukrainian textbooks it is written a little differently - "Mikola begat Abraham; Abraham begat Isaac; Isaac begat Jacob; Jacob begat Judas and his brothers; Judas begat Phares and Zarah from Tamar; Phares begat Esrom; Esrom begat Aram; Aram begat Aminadab ...." etc., but there are no Russians in this list at all! laughing

    And from the article, I recalled the lessons of history - this is class 6, probably a good, classic, Soviet school!
    1. Pavel Gusterin
      14 July 2020 06: 56 New
      +7
      Eugene, I don’t know how now, but in the Soviet school it was 7th grade.
      1. Finches
        Finches 14 July 2020 07: 01 New
        +8
        Thank you! hi It has been a long time - but the 6th or 7th grade, the essence does not change from this ... Having removed objective knowledge from school, at the exit we get narrow-minded marginals - that is in Ukraine, that in Russia!
    2. Civil
      Civil 14 July 2020 09: 09 New
      -5
      Author, what conclusion? Does this give rise to rights to these lands with the eviction of others?
      1. Pavel Gusterin
        14 July 2020 09: 58 New
        +2
        Sapienti sat - thinking enough.
      2. Boris ⁣ Shaver
        Boris ⁣ Shaver 20 July 2020 23: 13 New
        +1
        Quote: Civil
        Does this give rise to rights to these lands with the eviction of others?

        What does "others" mean and why with eviction? We need our people, not just land. Blood, you won't understand. And those who are not ours are already cleaning toilets in Poland and are not going to "go home".
  2. parusnik
    parusnik 14 July 2020 06: 25 New
    +2
    Facts, facts ... and what conclusion ...
    1. dvina71
      dvina71 14 July 2020 08: 28 New
      +6
      Quote: parusnik
      and what conclusion ...

      Ukraine is no more than 100 years old as a term .., and we don’t have to talk about the existence of such a state at all ..
      1. parusnik
        parusnik 14 July 2020 08: 56 New
        -1
        You made this conclusion ... And where is the author’s conclusion about the unity of the Russian world?
        1. dvina71
          dvina71 14 July 2020 09: 00 New
          +3
          Quote: parusnik
          You made that conclusion.

          This is not a conclusion, but a historical fact that you need to know.
          1. ZAV69
            ZAV69 14 July 2020 10: 43 New
            +1
            Quote: dvina71
            This is not a conclusion, but a historical fact.

            Partners in this fact scored a wedge. Oak.
        2. Pavel Gusterin
          14 July 2020 09: 59 New
          -2
          Alex, sapienti sat - thinking enough.
        3. Sanichsan
          Sanichsan 14 July 2020 13: 18 New
          +1
          Quote: parusnik
          And where is the author’s conclusion about the unity of the Russian world?

          and then trifle then? the kings won in kinship with all of Europe were in kinship, and indeed with England, as a result. wink
        4. sevryuk
          sevryuk 15 July 2020 21: 01 New
          +1
          In fact, this is also the northern, and continental, and forest, and agricultural (rye), and Slavic, and Orthodox, and Russian-imperial and Soviet worlds ...
    2. Nikolai Korovin
      Nikolai Korovin 14 July 2020 08: 36 New
      +4
      The conclusion is this. The Galician land is originally Russian, and Poland’s claims to Lviv, which is located significantly west of Przemysl, are unfounded. It was founded by Daniil Galitsky, however, the versions of the founding date diverge somewhat, but he did not enter Poland for the first half century.
      1. parusnik
        parusnik 14 July 2020 08: 53 New
        -2
        And where is it written by the author?
      2. Nikolai Korovin
        Nikolai Korovin 14 July 2020 19: 44 New
        +2
        Typo. Of course, Przemysl is significantly west of Lviv. Przemysl is ancient and it can be clearly seen from the map that it was part of the Principality of Galicia.
    3. Pavel Gusterin
      14 July 2020 09: 59 New
      -5
      Sapienti sat - thinking enough.
    4. The comment was deleted.
  3. Jünger
    Jünger 14 July 2020 08: 17 New
    -1
    Very "rich" article. What's the point of her, she's about nothing ..
    1. Pavel Gusterin
      14 July 2020 09: 58 New
      -8
      Sapienti sat - thinking enough.
      1. snake
        snake 14 July 2020 11: 25 New
        -2
        Quote: Pavel Gusterin
        Sapienti sat - thinking enough.

        Not "thinking", but "smart". A foolish person can think. Only to the point ...
        And one could also write: "who did not understand - he will understand" or "because - gladiolus".
        1. Pavel Gusterin
          14 July 2020 13: 53 New
          -4
          One of the meanings of the word sapiens - "judicious" (Dvoretsky I.Kh. Latin-Russian dictionary. M., 1986, p. 685). "Reasonable" = "thinking", because it is impossible to reason without thinking. Want to argue?
          1. snake
            snake 14 July 2020 16: 20 New
            -1
            Quote: Pavel Gusterin
            "Prudent" = "thinking"

            All judicious - thinking, but not all thinking - judicious. Conditional Napoleon from House No. 6 also thinks a lot of things. Is he reasonable?
            guided in his actions by the requirements of reason, common sense; prudently prudent

            And in general, the sacrament and the adjective, as parts of speech, cannot equal.
            Quote: Pavel Gusterin
            One of the meanings of the word sapiens is "judicious"

            Comes from lat. sapio "to be wise," goes back to the great Indo-world. language.
        2. Pavel Gusterin
          14 July 2020 14: 03 New
          -2
          Quote: serpent
          And one could also write: "who did not understand - he will understand" or "because - gladiolus".

          I have no doubt that you write like that ...
  4. Cristall
    Cristall 14 July 2020 08: 33 New
    -5
    Quote: Finches
    In Ukrainian textbooks it is written a little differently - "Mykola begat Abraham; Abraham begat Isaac; Isaac begat Jacob; Jacob begat Judas and his brothers; Judas begat Phares and Zarah from Tamar; Phares begat Esrom; Esrom begat Aram; Aram begat Aminadav ... .. ", etc., but there are no Russians in this list at all!

    TA-dah! Jesus we are. and 40 years we too ..
    we are the same apple and we plowed for 7 days too. laughing
    1. Finches
      Finches 14 July 2020 09: 19 New
      +2
      Yes, you are well done! laughing
  5. Undecim
    Undecim 14 July 2020 08: 42 New
    +1
    The author clearly took up the impossible task, because of the well-known to anyone who is even a little interested in the history of facts, he did not even try to draw any conclusions in accordance with the title.
    I offer the author a second attempt on the example of the grandchildren of Peter the Great.
    1. Pavel Gusterin
      14 July 2020 09: 59 New
      -8
      Sapienti sat - thinking enough.
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 14 July 2020 10: 15 New
        0
        To the thinker, yes. But on the site of such - the vast majority. And the article is just not for them.
      2. Bashkirkhan
        Bashkirkhan 14 July 2020 13: 08 New
        -1
        Quote: Pavel Gusterin
        Sapienti sat - thinking enough.

        There are few such readers at VO; your publication will not be accepted by the audience. You have to be simpler, put everything on the shelves, chew.
      3. Tank hard
        Tank hard 14 July 2020 13: 36 New
        -1
        Quote: Pavel Gusterin
        Sapienti sat - thinking enough.

        Concise and correct answer. I would not translate. And cons like litmus paper are very revealing. Plus, definitely. hi
      4. Ilya Nikitich
        Ilya Nikitich 15 July 2020 08: 20 New
        +2
        Comrade Gusterin, stop! Everyone already understood that you still managed to learn two words in Latin. Congratulations on your gigantic success!
        But, as the Latins used to say "Modus in rebus", because omne nimium nocet.
        1. Pavel Gusterin
          15 July 2020 09: 53 New
          0
          Ilya Nikitich, the main thing is that you finally understood this!

          Quote: Ilya Nikitich
          But, as the Latins used to say "Modus in rebus", because omne nimium nocet.


          Not Latins, but Romans. The word "Latins" has a different meaning.
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. The comment was deleted.
  6. cniza
    cniza 14 July 2020 09: 19 New
    +4
    Prince of Novgorod and Vladimir-Suzdal Alexander Yaroslavich Nevsky and Prince of Galicia and Volyn Lev Danilovich (the one whose name the city of Lviv is named) are cousins


    This once again says that there was never Ukraine, Belarus and Russia, but there were principalities, which then united into a single State, it doesn’t matter voluntarily or by force and the kingdom appeared, then the empire Rus - Russia, and it’s mixed in with blood the Orthodox faith didn’t count it all together, growing with lands and nations to the Pacific Ocean. From the West we have a constant threat and continue to this day ...
    1. Krasnoyarsk
      Krasnoyarsk 14 July 2020 10: 11 New
      -2
      Quote: cniza
      , and it’s not enough to count blood in us

      How did you come to this conclusion? That in princes and kings blood is mixed, I do not argue. And in the common people, why would it be? They found a mate, at best, in a neighboring village, and usually in a nearby street. And the fact that people lived in different "lands" and principalities does not mean anything. The Russians lived there. It's just that our "science" is bashfully silent about it.
      There were no, there were no Russians, and then suddenly appeared out of nowhere? So what?
      1. cniza
        cniza 14 July 2020 10: 21 New
        +1
        I didn’t write about Russians anywhere, they really lived on all these lands, and then they settled in the East and incest went on ...
        1. Krasnoyarsk
          Krasnoyarsk 14 July 2020 10: 39 New
          0
          Quote: cniza
          I didn’t write about Russians anywhere, they really lived on all these lands, and then they settled in the East and incest went on ...

          How strong was this incest, you know? For a hundred years, how many Russian girls out of 1000 married foreigners. Do you know? Not. So what kind of incest you are talking about here? Yes, there were mixed marriages. But how common was this? Rather, it was an exception to the rule.
          1. Kronos
            Kronos 14 July 2020 11: 01 New
            0
            Hello - Tatars, Mongols and other peoples neighboring or inhabiting Russia
  7. iouris
    iouris 14 July 2020 10: 08 New
    -1
    The unity of the "Russian world" is possible only in a single state. If there is no single state, then under the "Russian world" everyone will understand something close to him to the extent of his depravity, for example, "blood unity" ("gene code", etc., that is, nothing good). A single state on such a vast territory is a heavy burden. But there was no other option, and there never will be.
    1. Krasnoyarsk
      Krasnoyarsk 14 July 2020 10: 29 New
      +2
      Quote: iouris
      for example, "blood unity" ("genocode", etc., ie nothing good).

      I don’t understand, but what's wrong? What is wrong with my blood being Russian? And this makes me related to other Russians. What's bad about it?
      1. iouris
        iouris 14 July 2020 11: 23 New
        +2
        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
        What is wrong with my blood being Russian?

        Nothing. It’s just your personal business, and not a necessary or necessary condition for belonging to any world.
        1. Krasnoyarsk
          Krasnoyarsk 14 July 2020 11: 31 New
          -1
          Still I did not understand - "nothing good" or simply - "nothing"
          Quote: iouris
          , and not a necessary or necessary condition for belonging to any world.

          So I don’t argue with that.
  8. Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 14 July 2020 11: 16 New
    +8
    Mstislav married the baptized daughter of the Polovtsian khan Maria Kotyanovna. Thus, Alexander Nevsky and Lev Galitsky for a quarter were Polovtsy.

    Something the author is clearly modest, sorting out who was who. I don't want to go deep into the dispute about Rurik and his ethnicity, let's start with Yaroslav the Wise - let him be a "pure Russian".
    So, Yaroslav is married to Ingigerda of Sweden - all his children are half Swedes.
    Vsevolod Yaroslavich is married to a Greek woman from the Monomakh family. Children are half Greeks, a quarter Swedes, a quarter Russian.
    Vladimir Monomakh is married to the Wessex Guide - his children are half Saxons, a quarter Greeks, one-eighth Swedes and Russians.
    Further, the branches diverge - the Galitsky branch of the Rurikovich descended from Mstislav the Great, Suzdal - from Yuri Dolgoruky.
    Mstislav Vladimirovich the Great is married to Christina of Sweden.
    Izyaslav Mstislavich - on Agness Hohenstaufen (German, if that)
    Mstislav Izyaslavich - on Agnieszka Boleslavovna (polka)
    Roman Mstislavich - on Anna Angelina (Greek)
    Daniil Romanovich - on Anna Mstislavna, granddaughter of the Polovtsian Khan Kotyan
    Back to Yuri Dolgoruky.
    Yuri Vladimirovich was married to Polovka, the daughter of Khan Aepa.
    Vsevolod Yuryevich The Big Nest on Maria Shvarnovna, who is considered an Ossetian. According to another version - Czech.
    Yaroslav Vsevolodovich - on Feodosia Mstislavna, also the granddaughter of Kotyan.
    Well, I added information to the thought? laughing
    Author,
    Quote: Pavel Gusterin
    Sapienti sat - thinking enough.

    this is, of course, so, but ... not always. For example, here I consider myself a thinking person and I know much more on the topic raised than is stated in the article, but the information I have is completely "insufficient" for me to understand what you, as an author, wanted to say. Not enough even to understand which thesis you were trying to confirm or deny.
    Are the named Russian princes representatives of the "Russian world" and to what extent, what is this "Russian world" and what does the XNUMXth century have to do with it? Is your creation a clear illustration of the thesis about the "alienness of the elite" and the lack of "patriotism" in it, or, on the contrary, the thesis about the "internationalism" of Ancient Russia? And is there any thought behind the facts listed in the article?
    I’ll tell you something too.
    Ulf Fase Karlsson and Birger Magnusson were cousins, grandchildren of Bengt Snilwil from Bjelbu's house, and both were Swedish swarves in turn, and in 1240, during the campaign on the Novgorod lands that ended in the Neva battle, it was Ulf, not Birger, .
    Why am I? Well, "enough for the thinker." smile
    1. anzar
      anzar 14 July 2020 11: 54 New
      +2
      Vladimir Monomakh is married to the Wessex Guide - his children are half Saxon, a quarter ...

      Yeah, it’s not like that! Why do not you consider the percentage of wives? Are there no dynastic marriages there?
      Your creation is a vivid illustration of the thesis about the "foreignness of the elite" and its lack of "patriotism" ...

      Elite always foreign (socially))) and "patriotism" is the interests of the owner.
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 14 July 2020 12: 32 New
        +7
        Quote: anzar
        Why do not you consider the percentage of wives?

        You don’t have enough percent of husbands, do you want to calculate everything up to hundredths of these percent? smile
        Quote: anzar
        Elite is always foreign

        Russian princes were exactly Russian from the time of Svyatoslav, and certainly from the time of Vladimir, although they might not have Slavic genes at all. The only place they could come from is Malusha, Vladimir’s mother, and some consider her almost Jewish. laughing
        But it was these Russian princes who spoke Russian, lived according to Russian customs, and were part of their people. No foreignness.
        1. Tuzik
          Tuzik 14 July 2020 12: 50 New
          0
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          Russian princes were exactly Russian from the time of Svyatoslav, and certainly from the time of Vladimir, although they might not have Slavic genes at all.

          Michael, how do you feel about the version that the Russians conquered the Slavs?
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 14 July 2020 12: 57 New
            +4
            Quote: Tuzik
            Russ conquered the Slavs

            Stupidity.
            In my opinion, the Slavs, the Scandinavians and the Finno-Ugrians, united, were the substrate from which Russia was formed. Before the formation of Russia, there were no Russians.
            1. forest1
              forest1 15 July 2020 08: 05 New
              +2
              Quote: Trilobite Master
              Russia. Before the formation of Russia, there were no Russians.


              still not. they were

              "When, according to the chronicle version, the union of Slavic and Finno-Ugric tribes decided to invite a prince, they began to look for him among the Varangians:

              “In the year 6370 [862 in modern chronology] ... They went overseas to the Varangians, to Russia. Those Varangians were called Rus, as the others are called Swedes, and others - Normans and Angles, and also other Goths - like these. Chud, the Slavs, Krivichi and the whole, said to Russia: “Our land is great and plentiful, but there is no order in it. Come reign and own us. " And three brothers with their clans were chosen, and took all Russia with them, and came primarily to the Slavs. And they put the city of Ladoga. And the eldest, Rurik, sat in Ladoga, and the other, Sineus, on the White Lake, and the third, Truvor, in Izborsk. And from those Varangians the Russian land was nicknamed ”[3]. (A Tale of Bygone Years)

              A whole series of words of the Old Russian language has a proven Old Norse origin. It is significant that not only the words of commercial vocabulary penetrated into the Slavic language, but also marine terms, everyday words and terms of power and management, proper names. So, the names Gleb, Igor, Ingvar, Oleg, Olga, Rogvolod, Rogneda, Rurik, words [24]: Varangians, kolyabi, gridi, tyun, vira, flag, pood, anchor, yabednik (the old meaning is an official), whip, stringer, etc.

              According to A. A. Zaliznyak, the modern scientific consensus most likely suggests that, regardless of how the word "Rus" was formed, at first it denoted only the Normans and came to the Russian language from the Old Norse language (dr. Scand. rōþr “rower” and “cruise on rowing vessels”, transformed through Fin. ruotsi “Swedish, Swede” into other Russian “Rus” [25]), and then gradually from the Norman elite began to “glide” over the whole people of the Ancient Rus [26].

              The structure of the word Rus allows us to conclude that the name of the non-Slavic tribe, like the names Chud, All, Vod, Perm, Sum, etc. The historian A. A. Shakhmatov noted:
              The form of Rus ... relates to Ruotsi like the old Russian Sumy ... to Finnish Suomi. It seems to me that elementary methodological considerations do not allow us to separate the modern Finnish Ruotsi on behalf of Russia.

              The Old Russian word rous etymologically exactly corresponds to the Baltic-Finnish name for Sweden and the Swedes - * rōtsi (Fin. Ruotsi “Sweden”, ruotsalainen “Swede”, Est. Rootsi “Sweden, Swedish”). The transformation of -ts- into -s'- happened according to the law of the open syllable, due to which the closing sound -t- disappeared. The sound -i changed to -ь as a result of the fall of the reduced ones. "
              1. Trilobite Master
                Trilobite Master 15 July 2020 10: 15 New
                0
                I agree that I myself adhere to exactly this point of view on the question of the origin of the term "rus". However, I want to draw your attention to the fact that the word "Rus" was formed precisely as a result of contacts between the Slavs, Finns and Scandinavians, and in fact, Russia, as a state, began to take shape precisely with the beginning of these contacts, the process of folding itself lasted about a century, the Finno-Slavic - the Scandinavian states or proto-states arose here and there. So your arguments do not contradict my thesis in any way.
                However, it doesn’t matter.
                1. forest1
                  forest1 15 July 2020 11: 20 New
                  0
                  Russia as a state - of course. Just before this event, a word very similar to the word rus was called one of the Scandinavian tribes. And Russia as a state got its name from the self-name of this tribe of Varangians. Zaliznyak in his lecture specifically says that initially the state of Rurik was not called Rus. They said that "Russia has come." Then it (EMNIP from the 10th or 11th century only) transferred to the name of the state founded by the Rurikavichs.
              2. Tuzik
                Tuzik 15 July 2020 12: 25 New
                +1
                Quote: forest1
                Come reign and own us

                Doesn't this phrase surprise you? After all, winners write history. It seems to me there are 50 to 50. In addition to this chronicle, are there other references to the arrival of the Varangians-Rus?
                1. forest1
                  forest1 15 July 2020 13: 13 New
                  +1
                  A lot of historical and linguistic data. this is indicated. You just think the name of Russia and the name of Sweden coincides in the Baltic and Finnish languages. The Baltic states still by the way call Russia a curve. Because of the Krivichi tribe.
                  1. Tuzik
                    Tuzik 15 July 2020 14: 12 New
                    +1
                    That I am not for the name, but for their coming. Then the Trilobite Master said that there were no Russians (Rus) before Russia. Which version are you leaning towards, did they come and begin to command, or how was it written that they were invited?
                    1. forest1
                      forest1 15 July 2020 14: 18 New
                      +1
                      They could have invited. You cannot judge that time from the standpoint of the present. But those were the Vikings. Very belligerent. Maybe they did not conquer the Slavs. For example, Normandy is the same part of Britain. But the Slavs apparently saw that they were first-class warriors and were familiar with state construction. Most likely this was the reason for the "invitation", again they sold ordinary Slavs into slavery to Byzantium. The invitation apparently came from local elites. Who decided to live under the Vikings. For example, the Kurgan and Medvedkovskaya organized crime groups voluntarily merged with Orekhovskaya as a stronger one. I understand that the example is not correct. But at least somehow illustrate
                      1. Tuzik
                        Tuzik 15 July 2020 14: 26 New
                        0
                        Thanks for the interesting answer. Probably never know for sure.
                        What do you think about the Volga Bulgars? Are they connected with the current Bulgarians? Could it be such that bo (y) liars called those who lived on the edge of an ancient country? And why were they Jews, alone for many kilometers?
                      2. forest1
                        forest1 15 July 2020 14: 35 New
                        +1
                        Yes related. Bulgars came to the territory of Bulgaria (their name is from the Bulgars) just the same. from the territory in my Ukraine. Part went east and became Volga. And some went to the balconies. The elite was Turkic in the first Bulgarian kingdom, but then completely assimilated by the Slavs. In general, the ancestral home of all Indo-Europeans. This is the Black Sea. The truth is unclear where. Slavs are the northern Black Sea coast. All Türks come from Altai. They came from there to Europe and Asia Minor. Finno-Ugric peoples including Hungarians (genetically true they are already almost Slavs, but assimilated the Slavic majority being in the minority), descendants of protofinogors come from the Ural mountains. It was not just moving. Residents of the same Taimyr and Yakutia are very close to the American Indians genetically - they got there through the Bering glacier. During the ice age. In general, everything is quite complicated and interesting.
                        I won’t say anything about Judaism among the Volga Bulgars. Only that comes to mind because of ties with the Khazar Khaganate.
                      3. Tuzik
                        Tuzik 16 July 2020 09: 11 New
                        0
                        Yesterday I confused the Bulgars with Judaism, then yes, I don’t understand the Khazar Khaganate. As you say correctly, everything is quite complicated and interesting.
                        In the Slavs, this version hit me in the head:
                        There was a country of Slavia, those who lived on the borders were called Bulgars, civilians began there, and the fighting Vyaryag-Rus took advantage of this to capture the central part (they were invited to help one of the parties, or they took advantage of the opportunity).
                        The languages ​​Bulgarian, Polish .. are very similar with ours. Plus, the two stories that came up above.
          2. sevryuk
            sevryuk 15 July 2020 21: 11 New
            0
            "at first it meant only the Normans and came into the Russian language from the Old Norse language (Old Scandinavian r гребr" rower "and" sailing on rowing boats ", transformed through Finnish ruotsi" Swedish, Swede "into Old Russian" Rus ""
            Why did the Normans call themselves what the Finns called the Swedes? Chud was such an important nation for them? Well, Estonians still call Russians "Krivichi", Germans are not called as soon as neighbors, and they are all "Deutsche", yes "Deutsche" ... Nipanyatno ...
            1. forest1
              forest1 16 July 2020 00: 08 New
              0
              The Finns called them that because the Rus tribe most likely called itself so. The Germans are called differently simply because of confusion. For example, the British Dutch call dutch that is German. We also call them Germans, and not Deutsch. The word dutch refers specifically to Deutsch. From there Teuton goes, a change in pronunciation in different languages. Germany almost until the very end of the 19th century was a very fragmented state. With different languages ​​and ethnic self-determination. There are still different languages ​​and dialects in different lands. Normans are not understood as Normans as a tribe, but as a whole the Scandinavians - Nord Mans - northern people.
          3. MstislavHrabr
            MstislavHrabr 17 July 2020 02: 35 New
            0
            If "Rus" were Swedes, then there would be no need to write in the annals: "Those Varangians were called Rus, as others are called Swedes." We read for sure that Russia is not Swedes, not Normans, not Angles, and not Goths ... Varangians are people (groups of people) expelled from the country for non-compliance with the laws of the tribe. These are people who have lost their homeland and are looking for or conquering another. From where Russia was expelled, we do not know. But we know for sure that there was no conquest. There was an invitation to rule fairly observing our customs ("otherwise we have no order"). So the prince was called as a judge for the conclusion of the SERIES. "Row" and "order" among the Slavs was associated with the word CONTRACT.
            1. forest1
              forest1 17 July 2020 05: 27 New
              0
              Where did you get that the Vikings are some kind of expelled? The fact that they are not Swedes is understandable. It was simply a tribe related to the Swedes, which many confused with the Swedes. The British also confused the Dutch and Germans at the time (despite the fact that they are all kindred Germanic peoples), which I already mentioned, in fact they call the Dutch Germans, and for the Germans they adopted the Latin term German. But that doesn’t really change anything. Previously, people were not very well versed in ethnic and other aspects.
              1. MstislavHrabr
                MstislavHrabr 29 July 2020 01: 51 New
                0
                And on what basis do you conclude that it is related to the Swedes? And even so. This small tribe came to the Slavs at their request (in the role of mercenaries or arbitrators), gave them their name and completely dissolved in them ... So Russia and the Slavs are the same thing ... (By the way, there are many reasons to consider the book Igor is not the son or grandson of Rurik, but a Slav, who thus justified his right to reign ...)
                1. forest1
                  forest1 29 July 2020 05: 51 New
                  0
                  I left a bunch of proofs, see above. Both historians and philologists speak about this.
        2. Krasnoyarsk
          Krasnoyarsk 15 July 2020 21: 01 New
          0
          Quote: Trilobite Master

          In my opinion, the Slavs, the Scandinavians and the Finno-Ugrians, united, were the substrate from which Russia was formed.

          laughing
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          Before the formation of Russia, there were no Russians.

          laughing laughing
    2. anzar
      anzar 14 July 2020 12: 59 New
      +1
      The Russian princes were exactly Russian ... although they might not have Slavic genes at all ... But it was these Russian princes who spoke Russian, lived by ...

      I agree completely. Even (in other cases), if not quite, but in this the advantage of the monarchy (hereditary) over the elected authorities - they want to leave their heirs (in good condition)) But there is no "protection from the fool" ...
      Therefore, the modern ideal is a constitutional monarchy. Subject to the availability of enough citizens, not just tributaries)))
  • Pavel Gusterin
    14 July 2020 12: 25 New
    -1
    Michael, please read the title of the article.
    1. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 14 July 2020 12: 50 New
      +4
      I read it. "On the unity of the Russian world ..."
      On the example of Alexander Yaroslavich and Lev Danilovich, we see that the Russian princes were relatives of varying degrees of proximity along different lines, and also had a significant share of non-Slavic blood, not only from Polovtsian, but also from anyone. If we look at the pedigrees of other princes from other branches, we will see exactly the same picture: kinship of varying degrees along different lines and permanent marriages with representatives of other nations.
      The question is: how do these circumstances affect their belonging to the "Russian world" and to its unity?
      1. Pavel Gusterin
        14 July 2020 12: 57 New
        -6
        Sapienti sat - thinking enough.
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 14 July 2020 13: 00 New
          +4
          Quote: Pavel Gusterin
          Sapienti sat - thinking enough.

          I don’t.
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          Ulf Fase Karlsson and Birger Magnusson were cousins

          Are you enough?
          1. Pavel Gusterin
            14 July 2020 13: 34 New
            -4
            Sapienti sat - thinking enough.
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            I don’t.

            Can you conclude?
            1. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 14 July 2020 13: 36 New
              +5
              Quote: Pavel Gusterin
              Can you conclude?

              Several, and mutually exclusive of each other.
      2. Nemchinov Vl
        Nemchinov Vl 15 July 2020 00: 02 New
        +1
        Quote: Pavel Gusterin
        Michael, please read the title of the article.

        Quote: Trilobite Master
        I read it. "On the unity of the Russian world ..."
        On the example of Alexander Yaroslavich and Lev Danilovich, we see that the Russian princes were relatives ... Question: how do these circumstances affect their belonging to the "Russian world" and to its unity?

        Quote: Pavel Gusterin
        Sapienti sat - thinking enough.

        Broke ?! Or like in a game "sea battle"- wounded ?!
        Quote: Pavel Gusterin
        Can you conclude?

        Quote: Trilobite Master
        Several, and mutually exclusive of each other.

        belay as they say - upon repeated hit, - killed !!
  • MstislavHrabr
    MstislavHrabr 17 July 2020 02: 22 New
    -3
    Well, let’s add that Ivan the Terrible is a Mongol and a Tatar by mother ...
    1. Pavel Gusterin
      17 July 2020 10: 11 New
      0
      And what does Ivan the Terrible have to do with it? Please read the title of the article!

      You also forgot to say: Chinese, Korean, Japanese, Buryat, Yakut, etc.
    2. Pavel Gusterin
      17 July 2020 10: 31 New
      0
      Elena Glinskaya - Mongolian and Tatar ...

      Anthropological reconstruction of the skull.
      1. MstislavHrabr
        MstislavHrabr 29 July 2020 01: 24 New
        0
        Genghis Khan also looks like a Russian, and she is Chingizid ...
  • Andrey Vasilievich
    Andrey Vasilievich 18 July 2020 17: 27 New
    -2
    What is the relationship of the princes to us ordinary people?
  • Andrey Vasilievich
    Andrey Vasilievich 18 July 2020 17: 29 New
    -1
    Quote: MstislavHrabr
    Well, let’s add that Ivan the Terrible is a Mongol and a Tatar by mother ...

    That is, according to your version, there were two mothers, one - a Mongol, the other Tatar ... Hmm ... belay
    1. Procopius Nesterov
      Procopius Nesterov 19 July 2020 20: 20 New
      0
      I very much doubt that in the time of Ivan the Terrible it was possible to meet a living Mongol. They made up a small part of Batu’s troops (according to Rashid ad-Din, Batu had two thousand Mongol warriors under the command), the rest were recruited from conquered peoples, and since then 300 years have passed. If we even consider the age of a generation of 20 years (from the birth of a child and the birth of a new one), then it has passed 15 generations and they have disappeared into the steppes of the Golden Horde among the local population.
    2. MstislavHrabr
      MstislavHrabr 29 July 2020 01: 28 New
      -1
      No son of Khan Mamai (Emir of Crimea Tatar) from his wife Tulunbek-khanum Chingizidka, daughter of Berdibek i.e. Mongol women (1371 Tulunbek-khanum solemnly proclaimed "queen", after the death of Mamai she was the wife of Tokhtamysh for some time, but was executed for participating in a conspiracy) - the ancestor of Elena Glinskaya, and she is the mother of Ivan the Terrible ...