Sohu: Russian theory of super maneuverability is not suitable for future air combat

The Chinese media are trying to figure out what concept a fifth-generation fighter is being created in Russia. The author on the pages of the Sohu portal writes that this concept is significantly different from that implemented in the United States on F-22 fighter jets.

From an article on a Chinese resource:

The difference between Russian fighters and American fighters lies in two completely different theories of air combat and an understanding of the future of such a battle. Compared to American fighters, Russian fighters usually have a higher traction coefficient and excellent maneuverability.

The author writes the following:

Russians still consider air combat at short and medium distances relevant. That is why the Russian concept is based mainly on super-maneuverability.

According to the author in Sohu, in an environment where airplanes have similar electronic warfare capabilities and weaponsover-maneuverability can indeed play an important role, but this role, according to the author, is not too great:

Outside of line of sight, use over-maneuverability to avoid an attack from the enemy, and then take countermeasures. Russia has always believed that it has an advantage in the field of aerodynamics of fighters, and it continues to go the same way.

It is precisely on this theory and on this concept that the new-generation Russian fighter Su-57 appeared, according to the author of the Chinese resource.

At the same time, it is stated that if the Russian Su-57 is detected by American radars before the pilot understands this, "super-maneuverability will not help him anymore."

From the article - peremptorily:

The Russian theory of super-maneuverability is not suitable for future air combat.

According to him, the American F-22 is “completely different,” since the American concept of the development of combat aviation based on stealth technology and early detection.

Comments

[501 Legion]

Time will tell, and now these are the next empty words from the Chinese

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: 501Legion

Time will tell, and now these are the next empty words from the Chinese

They are not so empty. It’s time for us psychologically to switch from Suvorovsky - a bullet-fool, a bayonet-well done, i.e. melee, to combat at great distances. And this applies to all military branches. If at the adversary an on-board locator detects our Sushka for 500 km. and his long-range missile went to the target, it is very rare for anyone to save over-maneuverability.
The Germans during the Second World War even put optics on their MG. We tried to fight in the distance. Therefore, we have more losses.
So, relying on over-maneuverability is stupid. The fact that she is is good. But she still needs a powerful locator and long-range weapons of high accuracy.

[KCA]

Missile defense maneuvers, especially when the enemy launches a long-range missile, are not needed at all, the rocket has infinite fuel and a handbrake, flew past the plane, missed, police turn and attack

[Avior]

Are needed. Only the launch of two missiles in one gulp sharply reduces the capabilities of the anti-ballistic maneuver.

[KCA]

Reduces, but not sharply, because the second rocket will fly to the point where the plane is no longer there, the range of the seeker hardly exceeds 30-40 km, which means either it will go wrong, or you can forget about the principle of "let it go and forget" (oops) and stealth will need to conduct RVVBD until it captures a target, the SU-57, as recently shown, can launch missiles during a maneuver, at least during vertical flight, but during a maneuver of avoiding the first missile, if the second missile is escorted, the response will fly

[Avior]

If the missiles are launched in one gulp with a certain delay in time, the second will hit the plane at the exit of the anti-missile maneuver against the first, when the aircraft’s energy is lost. At that moment, the second one will capture the goal of the GOS for a long time.
And with a missile defense there will be no time for return fire.

[Thunderbringer]

If the computer is engaged in shooting, then he does not care what kind of maneuver there is, it will just be taken into account.

[Afotin]

This is true when the thrust ratio is less than unity. The Su-57 imposes limitations on maneuverability in the first place, what kind of overload the pilot can withstand. And with existing missiles of a likely enemy of a long-range air-to-air class with agility, on the contrary, things are quite sad.

[3danimal]

Launch missiles with infrared seeker?
Maybe, like many others.
Already being attacked, it will be forced to “twist” maneuvers (when it receives a warning) and will be limited in its response against the opponent (inconspicuous) at a long / medium distance.

[user1212]

Quote: Avior

Only the launch of two missiles in one gulp sharply reduces the capabilities of the anti-ballistic maneuver.

Generally not affected

[Romario_R]

I am also for ours, but the fact that we have su35 and su57 are "blind" is a fact ...

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: KCA

Missile defense maneuvers, especially when the enemy launches a long-range missile, are not needed at all,

I understood your irony. Those. Do you continue to rely on our all-super-maneuverability?

Quote: KCA

the rocket has the same fuel infinite and the handbrake, flew past the plane, rrraz, police U-turn and attack

A bit wrong. The missile seeker begins to react simultaneously with the change in the aircraft's motion vector. So, no "ppraz and police turn".
And also, do not forget that the time of aerial combat is seconds.
The I-16, at one time, possessed super-maneuverability, and what, did it help him greatly?

[poquello]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

The I-16, at one time, possessed super-maneuverability, and what, did it help him greatly?

and what is wrong with the I-16?

Today it’s worth finally declaring the opposite, for it was the I-16 fighters, together with Polikarpov’s other brainchild, the I-153 biplane, that defended their native country in the early days of the war. Despite the surprise of the attack and heavy losses on the ground, the pilots of these aircraft had the most severe resistance to German aviation on the first day of the summer crash. Already at 3.30 in the morning of I-16 of the 33rd IAP of the Western Military Intelligence Directorate based in Pruzhany they shot down the first German aircraft over Brest. After about an hour, another five enemy vehicles attacking the airfield of this regiment fall to the ground. In the Baltic Military District, under similar circumstances, I-16 of the 21st IAP killed 9 Germans, the same victories in the 15th IAP and 7 shot down in the 10th IAP. In the Odessa military district, the 55th IAP, based in Balti, had 10 victories by the end of the day, the 67th IAP in Belgrade had even more victories - 15. In general, the first day of the war was not so simple for the German Air Force - on this day they lost 300 aircraft.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: poquello

In general, the first day of the war was not so simple for the German Air Force - on this day they lost 300 aircraft.

Only the Germans for some reason did not know.
If the I-16 mod.24 is so good, why is it discontinued? Because besides maneuverability, he had nothing more to boast about.

[poquello]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

If the I-16 mod.24 is so good, why is it discontinued?

then first you need to clarify the first question

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

The I-16, at one time, possessed super-maneuverability, and what, did it help him greatly?

what helped? Germans didn’t take heaven because I-16

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: poquello

what helped? Germans didn’t take heaven because I-16

But because ME-109

[poquello]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

Quote: poquello

what helped? Germans didn’t take heaven because I-16

But because ME-109

not tired of stupidity to write? Messer did not have serious superiority to clearly influence the position in the sky

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: poquello

Messer did not have serious superiority to clearly influence the position in the sky

Do not languish the soul, discover the secret of German supremacy in the sky of 41, 42 and 43

[poquello]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

Quote: poquello

Messer did not have serious superiority to clearly influence the position in the sky

Do not languish the soul, discover the secret of German supremacy in the sky of 41, 42 and 43

what 41,42,43? 41 years old, everything, further variable ownership of quantity (well, if you still haven’t guessed repeat - from quantity)

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: poquello

what 41,42,43? 41 years old, everything, further variable ownership of quantity (well, if you still haven’t guessed repeat - from quantity)

= Thus, by the beginning of the war, the combat aircraft of the new type were not 2739 units, as it is "officially" considered, but 706 units, which is 3,8 times less. And in the five Western border districts there were only 377 of them, and not 1540, as it is also "officially" considered, that is, 4 times less, which is only 5,5% of the total number of combat aircraft of these districts (6781 units), and not 20% is considered "officially" now. =
The number of Wehrmacht aircraft in June 41g on the eastern front - 3909
Based on your logic, we always had an advantage in the sky.
But in reality, everything was exactly the opposite. Until the middle of 43 years.

[poquello]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

of the total number of combat aircraft in these districts (6781 units),

) But what is so small? in the Soviet Union type 17tysch was, all on a call from a cell border guards as one rose to smash the enemy

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: poquello

) But what is so small?

The question is not for me. For what I bought, for what I sold.
So Cho from the topic then sailed away?

[poquello]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

For what I bought, for what I sold

where did you buy? )))))))

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

The number of Wehrmacht aircraft in June 41g on the eastern front - 3909

))
the advantage in the sky is in the sky, in view of the sudden thoughtful attack of the Germans and its consequences, the USSR was not able to provide a sufficient number of sorties

[Miron]

Quote: poquello

Quote: Krasnoyarsk
For what I bought, for what I sold

where did you buy? )))))))
Quote: Krasnoyarsk
The number of Wehrmacht aircraft in June 41g on the eastern front - 3909
))
the advantage in the sky is in the sky, in view of the sudden thoughtful attack of the Germans and its consequences, the USSR was not able to provide a sufficient number of sorties

You are right in everything. In almost everything.
But, besides the shots that were, and which were a terrible war, there were other components of the global strategy. Which, like a gun, hung on the wall. And in their own way they shot, only very quietly, with very powerful silencers.
***
Take a look around. The mind of the collective West, if you allow an artistic metaphor, is now engulfed in flames. He is looking for any clue to accuse the USSR of unleashing the war of 1941 against the USSR. In which the whole of today's European Union fought, and if you move away the screen of words, the United States and England, and with them their African and Asian colonies.
They are ready to disguise themselves as communists and friends of the USSR. Anything, just to find at least one shot in the direction of Germany to justify not only the war, but also the genocide, which was diligently dealt with by the billion people allegedly brought up on the ideals of Beethoven and Goethe.
I don’t think that the people of today's Russia will like what I say. This is a very difficult thing, which will require them to also believe that the war was the result of bestial hatred brought up not by Hitler and not Himmler, but by the mothers of the West, who nurtured their children with hatred of Russian people. Not Germans and not some not too socially secure young people who walked the streets with swastikas.
The war with the Russians is their hope of capturing the treasures of the Russian land into undivided and complete plunder, the wild hope with which they are born and die.
Stalin made it impossible for them to find a rational reason to start a war. The country paid for this decision with huge sacrifices.
But if the Russian people had heard this, if he had given them a reason, they would have destroyed our country.
If not in a war, then in the wild judges that today's life is so full of, where they cover up the same acts of destruction of our country with a fig leaf of laws. Only now the guns of the police apparatus. In which all their residents take part, from the janitor to the president.

[poquello]

Quote: Miron

Stalin made it impossible for them to find a rational reason to start a war. The country paid for this decision with huge sacrifices.
But if the Russian people had heard this, if he had given them a reason, they would have destroyed our country.

You heroize him too much, the Germans were well aware of the structure of the armed forces of the USSR and they played it corny.

[Miron]

Quote: poquello

Quote: Miron

Stalin made it impossible for them to find a rational reason to start a war. The country paid for this decision with huge sacrifices.
But if the Russian people had heard this, if he had given them a reason, they would have destroyed our country.

You heroize him too much, the Germans were well aware of the structure of the armed forces of the USSR and they played it corny.

Is Stalin the case.
I am trying to say that, in the language of those who hated Stalin, he is the cause of great losses, because he tied his own hands from inflicting deep wounds on the peoples of the West at the moment when the war began.
Indeed, in order to immediately stop it, the USSR had to strike at Poland, Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania, Norway, Sweden, Finland, and if the wagon train was destroyed, all other European countries.
Forget about the world that we love, and are used to evaluating from the standpoint of the common good, and think about the gigantic provocation of the Western countries against the USSR on June 22, 1941.
After all, today, even after everything, they no longer hesitate to accuse the USSR of aggression and the seizure of their countries.
Can you imagine what would have happened if retaliatory strikes had been inflicted on June 22, 1941.
Today everyone called the USSR an aggressor. And our country would have been destroyed long ago by the fosterlings of the very United States back in 1953, when they managed to somehow bribe the scum Zhukov.

[poquello]

Quote: Miron

Can you imagine what would have happened if retaliatory strikes had been inflicted on June 22, 1941.

) Can you imagine, retaliatory strikes were delivered where they could inflict them, but the speed of advance of the German columns was high.
Tch blame Stalin, and she really was, let's leave it on some other time.

[Miron]

The USSR did not deliver a single oncoming strike on the territory of the above-named countries, this is the greatest lie.
The USSR regarded the first hours of strikes against the USSR as a massive provocation, and took a wait and see attitude.
Only at 6 am, 4 hours after the start of massive attacks on their country, Soviet aviation received the order to destroy the enemy on the spot.
You are already lying about this little thing.
Until the last moment, the USSR and Stalin personally gave Western countries a chance to abandon the horrors of war and stop aggression. They didn't just choose war. They deliberately went to the genocide of our people using the army of their united Western countries. Destroying a country that, in the first hours of their bloody horror, abandoned counter-fatal blows in the hope that the peoples of the West would come to their senses and prefer peace to the horrors of war. Already experiencing bloody wounds.
Why dare you lie about it !?
And having already lied about this, you immediately spit the poison of lies at Stalin, in his non-existent guilt for something else.
Who are you and who gave you the right to slander our country and its leaders?

[poquello]

Quote: Miron

and the USSR did not deliver one counter strike on the territory of the above-named countries, this is the greatest lie.

), Danube landing

Quote: Miron

The USSR regarded the first hours of strikes against the USSR as a massive provocation, and took a wait and see attitude.

"first" two, three, four? ))))))))))))))))
uhahatal
"5:30. On German radio, the Reich propaganda minister Goebbels reads out Adolf Hitler's appeal to the German people in connection with the outbreak of the war against the Soviet Union: Moscow ... At the moment, the greatest in its length and volume of military action that the world has ever seen ... The task of this front is no longer to protect individual countries, but to ensure the security of Europe and thereby save everyone. "

7:00. Reich Foreign Minister Ribbentrop begins a press conference at which he announces the start of hostilities against the USSR: "The German army has invaded the territory of Bolshevik Russia!"
oh, this unknown))))))))))))))))))))))))))

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: poquello

where did you buy? )))))))

In google, where else.
https://rg.ru/2016/06/16/rodina-sssr-germaniya.html

Quote: poquello

ensure a sufficient number of sorties

Because there was nothing to provide.

[poquello]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

In google, where else.
https://rg.ru/2016/06/16/rodina-sssr-germaniya.html

As of June 22, 1941, the Air Force of the Western border districts totaled 4226 fighter aircraft. There were 16 I-1635 fighters of all types along the border line.
https://airpages.ru/ru/i16bp.shtml

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

Because there was nothing to provide.

As a result of the stubborn and active struggle that has been waged in the Moscow direction for more than three months, the German air forces lost about 1600 aircraft in the air and at airfields. The activity of enemy aircraft decreased sharply. By the end of November 1941, our Air Force gained operational air supremacy in this most important area and held it until the end of the battle of Moscow.

Timokhovich I.V. Operational art of the Soviet Air Force in the Great Patriotic War. - M., Military Publishing, 1976.

[poquello]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

Here are just other authors claim that air supremacy passed to the Soviet Air Force only after the most difficult battles for the Kuban. And this is the second half of 43 years.

43 year is the final stage of strategic domination, i.e. the Germans have not recovered

[Yuriy Filatov]

In fact, the Germans not only knew about the advantages of the I-16, but also suffered rather large losses in Spain. Ishaki entered the battle with the Mesers a little earlier than in the confrontation between Germany and the USSR. And the first Mesers didn’t put much of a moth against Ishak, but Meser had a reserve for modernization, and having received new engines and weapons he was able to get indisputable advantages, but the design of the biplane does not allow to boil the high speeds characteristic of combat aviation of the 40s

[kzgobi]

Well, yes ... Goebbels didn’t tell you about this either ...

[Bogatyrev]

But Yak helped and how. So, it was not a matter of super-maneuverability))

[VyacheSeymour]

.... the rocket has the same fuel infinite and the handbrake, flew past the plane, rrraz, police U-turn and attack

... and overloading air-to-air missiles in 70G is not a handbrake And a police U-turn? And not a contact fuse will allow you to fly past an airplane?

[Charik]

maneuvering horizontally and sucking rocket energy

[Saxahorse]

Quote: KCA

Missile defense maneuvers, especially when the enemy launches a long-range missile, are not needed at all, the rocket has infinite fuel and a handbrake, flew past the plane, missed, police turn and attack

Especially smart, hoping for the benefit of missile defense maneuvers, I really want to advise you to check it for yourself. In attack. A bullet is slower than a rocket, so try it, dodge bullets while running

And for those who are not shy to watch the numbers, let me remind you that the rocket is three to five times stronger in the turn to overload. Do not dodge without scattering ...

[poquello]

Quote: Saxahorse

Especially smart, hoping for the benefit of missile defense maneuvers, I really want to advise you to check it for yourself.

especially gifted I highly recommend smoking what is a Morshevsky pendulum

Quote: Saxahorse

And for those who are not shy to watch the numbers, let me remind you that the rocket is three to five times stronger in the turn to overload.

you need to look not at numbers, but about the results, about brakes, drift, skidding, do not forget to write

[Galiets]

For a rocket with a speed of 3-4M, the plane is a standing target.

[Bad_gr]

Quote: GALliets

For a rocket with a speed of 3-4M, the plane is a standing target.

A target with electronic warfare equipment, heat traps, a pulsed infrared noise generator (the probability of disruption of an MANPADS missile attack when using pulsed infrared jammers is from 0,5 to 0,7-0,8). On some aircraft, they also put on-board laser jamming station.
Here is such a target.

[Hermit21]

The launch range of the URVV on a highly maneuverable target is 40-50 km due to the need to preserve the rocket with a sufficient supply of energy. And there it is a stone's throw from close combat. The exception is ramjet missiles, but they have their drawbacks. For some reason, the theses “Since the missile's range is 150 kilometers, you can launch it for 150 kilometers for any target” and “Let it go - flew away on business” took root in the minds of the average man. But far from it

[Avior]

When paired starts, this distance is much greater

[NEXUS]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

It’s time for us psychologically to switch from Suvorovsky - a bullet-fool, a bayonet-well done, i.e. melee, to combat at great distances.

Dear, in order to no longer write such a game, take a look at what missiles are in the arsenal of the SU-57. By the way, the fact that the mattress is a long-range missile is, according to our classification, just a medium-range missile.
Now, regarding super-maneuverability ... super-maneuverability gives increased fighter stability in transcendent flight modes. This is what gives an undeniable advantage in the dog dump. And on the opposite courses, the battle very easily passes into the stage of a close duel, where our fighters have no equal.

[NIKN]

It’s just that the Chinese have no opportunities to create a super-maneuverable apparatus, and the thesis that it is not needed appears, otherwise they would have pushed super-maneuverability as the only one necessary for the 5th generation.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: NEXUS

Dear, in order to no longer write such a game, take a look at what missiles are in the arsenal of the SU-57.

Dear, the SU-59 missiles are even cooler. So what?
How many 57s are in the IAP?
This is where we start.

Quote: NEXUS

By the way, the fact that the mattress is a long-range missile is, according to our classification, just a medium-range missile.

Come on.

Quote: NEXUS

This is what gives an undeniable advantage in the dog dump.

There will be no "dog dumps". Forget it.
A "dog dump" is possible only with mutual desire. Will mattresses go for it having the best radar and the best seeker of the V-V missiles? Don't forget that AWACS are there to help them. How many mattresses have? And we have?
Throw out the tactics of air battles of the past war.
On the opposite courses, the Su-35 and F-22 approach speed at 5000 km / h. add the speed of the mattress rocket 4M (4200 km / h) (AIM-120D) launch range of 180 km.
The speed of approach of the mattress rocket and SU-35 = 9000 km / h.
How many seconds does our pilot have to react? Well, to "wag the tail" in front of the nose of the rocket? That's your whole "dog dump".
In the air battle, the one who first noticed wins, and this is the radar, who has a long-range V-V missile, and who has the best seeker.

[poquello]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

Do not forget that to help them AWACS.

But what about Avaxs? - a good goal, big)))))

[Herman 4223]

Everything is beautifully written but not correct. There is an article on the Internet about an American lieutenant colonel on the account of long-range combat beyond visual visibility. It addresses three Cold War conflicts and a desert storm operation. In the three Cold War conflicts, nearly 700 medium and long-range missiles were fired, and only 61 of them were outside visual visibility and only four aircraft were shot down.
During the operation, a desert storm as many as 16, the farthest from a distance of as much as 20 miles. The downed Iraqi pilots did not react when their planes took to escort, did not take evasion maneuvers. The author concluded either about the malfunction of warning systems or the poor training of Iraqi pilots.
Long-range combat does not work in practice.

[Cyril G ...]

Higby author.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Herman 4223

Long-range combat does not work in practice.

I'm trying to imagine close combat, a "dog dump" at speeds of 2000 km / h for both.

[Herman 4223]

At this speed, planes do not fly for long, and some do not fly at all. Rapprochement can occur at high speed, but rockets are launched already at subsonic speed, only fifth-generation aircraft and our mig25 / 31 can do launch at supersonic. After several evolutions in the air, aircraft speeds fall even more strongly, and here the super-maneuverability of our machines is manifested. As it turns out the main problem of long-range combat is an unreliable friend or foe system. For fifth-generation aircraft, this will generally be a problem, as soon as the defendant begins to send signals that he is his own, this signal will almost immediately give out the aircraft. Therefore, the identification system is sometimes turned off, sometimes it may not work, and planes are afraid to bring down their own. By the way, one of four Americans shot down outside of visual visibility was his plane.
The Syrians during the war in Lebanon, their air defense counted as many as 12 of their machines.

[Nosgoth]

Track the speed of the vaunted F-35 at least on the fly if it doesn’t fall apart (and you don’t need a rocket for it)

[Yuriy Filatov]

And what bothers you at such speeds ?! The autopilot itself will drive the car to the target and open fire from the cannon at the fleeing target

[chingachguc]

laugh, thanks)))

[BLOND]

The first time the attendants noticed Rust on the radar screen at about 14:10. On-duty duty units Mig-23. Then one of the Soviet pilots discovered a "sports plane like the Yak-12" in the lumen of the clouds and asked what to do with it, but did not receive a clear answer from the ground. Soviet pilots could not accompany Rust's small plane on fighters due to the difference in speed

Need over maneuverability

[KCA]

And the fact that he was leading, again without an order, to shoot down MI-24, you did not hear? Have you isolated one part of the MiG-23 epic, and the rest? "Crocodile", without using weapons, could simply blow off Tsesna, flying about 20 meters, or flying from above, press it to the ground

[chingachguc]

dear, have you heard of such a thing as a missile defense maneuver? looks like no.

[inpu]

EW both sides will apply. From afar, you still need to aim. I admit that both sides will be guided to a greater extent by visual contact in such conditions.

[Magog_]

The WWII experience is, of course, important. Although, losses in aerial battles are determined, first of all, by the experience of the pilots: at the beginning of the war, the lack of training of our airborne fighters affected - in the end, on the contrary, the Germans had problems with training new fighters to replace the dead and lost, and the statistics of losses changed. Another example is clearer about maneuverability. During the Vietnam War, the Americans largely bet on their Phantoms, ... as a result, they urgently began to develop the F-16 - this is the answer to the question: who was right?

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

it's time to move from Suvorov - bullet-fool, bayonet-well done, i.e. melee, to combat at great distances.

And the option that our Su-57, due to the complex of locators, will see the F-22 earlier, and launch a long-range missile before the Su-57 is detected, do you not allow in principle?

[Narak-zempo]

Especially when we have locators with ROFAR. Mattresses and similar technologies do not have.

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Narak-zempo

Especially when we have locators with ROFAR

I don’t know about ROFAR, but from what they’re putting now:

But with the hanging container, there were some problems. I wonder at what stage this business is, does anyone know?

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Bad_gr

You do not admit in principle?

So what am I writing about?

Quote: Bad_gr

Quote: Krasnoyarsk
it's time to move from Suvorov - bullet-fool, bayonet-well done, i.e. melee, to combat at great distances.

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

So what am I writing about?

I apologize if I did not understand correctly. For some, the axiom is that the F-22 is invisible, and he sees far and shoots first. But this is not a fact: we do not know the true capabilities of the F-22 and Su-57, and the true picture can be completely opposite.

[Subtext]

But she still needs a powerful locator and long-range weapons of high accuracy.

Support.
I recall an old article on this topic (perhaps relevant today). Complicated jamming conditions, detection ranges are reduced, airplanes fly quickly to meet them, and here they are

[3danimal]

Still to drive stealth ..
Radar power has limits, and RP coverage and glider geometry will always work.
In addition, the number of modern aircraft and the training of pilots is important (“raid” and tactical features).

[post]

glider geometry also has its limitations

[3danimal]

And the optimal compromise in geometry is in F-22/35 (from serial aircraft).

[BastaKarapuzik And]

You can detect someone at a great distance with the help of a locator, only, oops, the included locator with a stealth does not harmonize, as well as outboard fuel tanks and weapons on the external suspension. America does not need stealth for air combat, but for the first strike on ground targets, sneak up on foreign borders and so on. We do not seem to have a preemptive strike in the concept, hence the defensive tactics and obviously a slightly different approach to the design of aviation and air defense.

[3danimal]

You are mistaken: for an air battle there is an LPI mode. With the range of modern missiles, there is no need to creep up to the borders.

[post]

For example, according to the military reference book "Jane", the "Raptor" radar has an operational detection range of 193 km, which provides 86% of the probability of detecting a target with RCS = 1 sq. m. on one pass of the antenna beam.
Emnip, the quiet mode of operation of the radar scout of the Danish frigate Absalon provided a detection range for sea targets at a distance of only 40 km.

[3danimal]

It's time to give developers bonuses

[post]

It’s not clear why

[3danimal]

For his age, a completely unique and unparalleled technique

[VyacheSeymour]

Krasnoyarsk, I will put you a well-deserved minus ... - because you apparently have never tried to fight on computer simulators of air combat. I read your comment and understood, - You are out of unwillingness to clog the expanses of the degraded VO with your "stupidity"
(pluses are all) did not openly deny the teleportation of the fighter during a dodge.

If at the adversary an on-board locator detects our Sushka for 500 km. and his long-range missile went to the target, it is very rare for anyone to save over-maneuverability.

You dare to claim that the kinetic energy of the apparatus cannot instantly go into potential (and in fact it
more - who weighs more) and vice versa ...? You affirm (this is clear from the meaning of your comment) that a 30-ton, twin-engine fighter with a deflected thrust vector will not be able to evade a single-engine fighter with a controlled thrust vector, with aerodynamic and gas-dynamic rudders rockets? - having only (at least) 30G overloads? - weighed down by the same non-contact fuse? ...- Well, you obviously didn’t take the exam, but gave just some kind of "EXAMINATIONS" in PHYSICS !!!
Minus for some reason the hand did not rise to put? - Strange ... No?

[muham]

Quote: VyacheSeymour

Well, you obviously didn’t take the exam, but you just passed some "EXAMINATIONS" in PHYSICS !!!

Don’t worry, it won’t last long, because if the star has already started talking about the dominance of the Russian Academy of Sciences, then the polar fox runs around.
https://zvezdaweekly.ru/news/t/2020731321-PlBFs.html

[VyacheSeymour]

I completely agree with you ...- the search for the philosopher's stone has long been recognized as pseudoscience (this is today from our educated bell tower) ...- But, to how many side-effect, great discoveries this search
brought ...

[KCA]

I remember the simulators at the dawn of their appearance, the F-19, always knocked down the Foxhounds, Comanche - the hinds, but the M1 Abrams in general is everything that moves, both on the earth and in the sky

[Egorovich_2]

Passing the exam in physics, rather than classical exams, did not prevent us from finding out that physics is an empirical science in which experience rules, not reasoning.
American experiments https://defenseissues.net/2013/04/27/usefulness-of-bvr-combat/ showed that firing at long range (outside the visual definition) was not effective enough.

[VyacheSeymour]

American experiments https://defenseissues.net/2013/04/27/usefulness-of-bvr-combat/ showed that firing at long range (outside the visual definition) was not effective enough.

That's right, but the range of the same "Meteor" is indicated at 100 km + (according to engine operation) with the possibility of hitting up to 150 km.
At high altitudes, not only missiles lose their maneuverability, only the difference is that the inefficiency of aerodynamic rudders is covered by gas-dynamic ones. Like it or not, but a body with a larger mass and dimensions, albeit at a lower speed, has a longer reaction time and turning radii.
Air-to-air missiles were discussed here .... But therefore, everything is true for ground-to-air .. - what is the point of producing S-300, S-400, S-500 ???
Your link (based on outdated samples) proves the superiority of melee missiles over long-range missiles ... And so everyone knows that firing at short range is more effective than long-range, but the ability to start defeating the enemy at long-range (albeit not so efficient) distance allows achieve advantages already in close combat - the enemy’s strength and fuel reserves for maneuverable combat are reduced.
In addition, the author gives calculations without taking into account the actions of the ground air defense forces of opponents - after all, they will converge in no ring.

Passing the exam in physics, rather than classical exams, did not prevent us from finding out that physics is an empirical science in which experience rules, not reasoning.

The fact that physics is an applied science is known oh how long before the appearance of the exam ...

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: VyacheSeymour

For some reason, the hand didn’t rise.

And they were going! But in general - thanks.

[VyacheSeymour]

And they were going!

Initially, it was marked with a plus, But ... - well, I could not resist and not play on the feelings of advanced "gamers", advanced so much that, disdaining all the laws of materialism, they evade everything and everyone, fighters who religiously believe in the existence of a secret technique for dodging bullets ... Why secret? - Because apparently there is no one (from those who tested it on themselves) to tell about its effectiveness ... ⚰

[AndreyM]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

If at the adversary an on-board locator detects our Sushka for 500 km. and his long-range missile went toward the target,

Does the adversary have such missiles?
In the F-35 arsenal, the most long-range air-to-air missile is the AIM-120D AMRAAM with a launch range of 180 km and an RGSN target acquisition range of 16 km. Moreover, this rocket is very old (developed in 1988) and well-known to the designers of the Su-57

[Charik]

yes, some pray on super120

[Herman 4223]

Yes, for it to fly 180 km, it must be launched from a height of 17 km and a speed of 1,5 m. This range is achieved from the board f22. At the 35th range will immediately subside. And if the plane cannot make supersonic launches, and these are all fourth-generation fighters in the USA, then there will be little left of the range.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: AndreyM

Moreover, this rocket is very old (developed in 1988) and well known to the designers of the Su-57

So who will tell you something new? Or is the privacy mode only with us?

[Egorovich_2]

The Americans, relying on the statistics of their air battles https://defenseissues.net/2013/04/27/usefulness-of-bvr-combat/, believe that long-range shooting is not effective - 25% of hits, up to 50% of misses associated with maneuvering the target.

[Herman 4223]

6% efficiency during the Cold War.

[Archon]

we shifted long distances to air defense

[Shurik_2]

And the planes and tanks they had better optics and communications. And we won anyway. Remember once and for all, it is not technology that wins, but the person and the main struggle if it is 4 generation aircraft. And invisible, they are that capricious young lady, do not give them what they want and this pepelats will not fly up. It is enough to break the preparation support hangar, and this "wonderful" bird will be frozen. Well, then, as always in war, losses, experienced and prepared for the expense, but ignorant, to replace them. And you won't be able to master this bird quickly. I do not call for throwing hats, but they are also afraid of them.

[Willywonka]

Because, "the side with large human and economic resources wins the war" (Clausewitz). The resources of the AGC countries were more than those of the OSI countries.

[mister-red]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

If at the adversary an on-board locator detects our Drying for 500 km.

And where are such radars? Well, except for AWACS of course.

[A1845]

The difference between Russian fighters and American fighters lies in two completely different theories of air combat and an understanding of the future of such a battle

it's not new
even in WWII, they were not fond of maneuverable battles, they preferred "hit and run"

[starley.ura]

What do you have to do with aviation? Any working radar is detected at a distance greater than it sees. Everything is quite simple: you spotted the fu-22 radar, move towards it in the "passive", an alert is triggered that he saw you, passive interference + electronic warfare + maneuver (you can approach, you can leave the visibility zone) and he loses me, su -57 all-aspect passive antenna integrated into the glider, and there are blind spots on the fu-22. Plus, an ultra-long-range rocket with an active seeker, that with an IR is very "myopic" and most of the trajectory is guided from the plane and, when the capture is disrupted, flies to the intended point, three times ha, well guess the point at which the super-maneuverable aircraft will be.

[Thrifty]

Admins, you quote better Bulletin of Mordovia, otherwise the Chinese are raving, it is clear that there are their experts there, their number of primary school students!

[Cyril G ...]

I support - idiocy is tiresome.

[iouris]

Quote: 501Legion

Time will tell

"Time is an unusually long thing" ... (In Mayakovsky)
Over-maneuverability is perfectly visible in demonstrations to any layman, and the magnitude of the EPR is not visible to a layman, he does not know what it is and for what. Strategy.

[3danimal]

Question: But can there be empty words from our officials (with the usual cut of eyes)?

[iouris]

Quote: 3danimal

But can there be empty words from our officials (with the usual cut of eyes)?

The eye is narrow, the nose is plushy, and itself is Russian. There are still other "Russians", but they do not live in the Russian Federation.

[3danimal]

So is the fault of the wrong racial correspondence?

[iouris]

Che'et for "racial conformity" and "wrong"? Russian is destiny (not race).

[3danimal]

But what about the "narrow eye"? Russian - nationality, as well as German, hollow, Chinese. At various times, everyone was told that it was fate

[the Saint]

Will show the number of aircraft, and not the time, also working on the quantity with quality.
The US Air Force in March received the 500th fifth-generation fighter F-35 Lightning II.
December 13, 2011 the assembly shop left the last serial F-22A fighter with tail number 10-4195. He became the 195th F-22A, launched since 1997, and became the last, 187th serial fighter, handed over to the US Air Force.

[post]

According to the Australian analytical center Air Power Australia, the F-35 does not meet the requirements for a fifth-generation fighter due to the inability to fly at supersonic speed without the use of afterburner, low thrust ratio, relatively high ESR, as well as low survivability and maneuverability

[3danimal]

EPR is high, 10 times more than that of F-22
Australians are picky, they want to get the 22nd, which the Americans do not sell to anyone.
But the Israelis (with extensive experience in air battles and the use of aviation) F-35 are quite satisfied.

[post]

But in Australia there is no saving ridge of antilivan

[3danimal]

The Israelis and the F-16mi coped.

[post]

Antilivan - a mountain range stretching from southwest to northeast between Lebanon and Syria. The border of Syria and Lebanon runs mainly along the top of the mountain range. The southern tip of the mountains is located in the Golan Heights

[post]

there you can on the old airship - no one will notice

[3danimal]

The F-35 has more features, much.
By the way, it has a shorter flight range than the 22nd, Perhaps this is the case.

[Willywonka]

You still could not find button accordion from Kopp?

[Revolver]

Quote: 501Legion

another empty words from the Chinese

SchA kitophiles attack. Well, offended China, our main ally! Not an ally? Well, companion. Ah, and not a fellow traveler? Anyway, they are against amers, and this is important. As the saying goes, let my pig die, if only with a neighbor through the street puddle house burned down.

[Galiets]

And if you are right? Then we’ll quickly redo everything, right?

[shonsu]

exactly!
But still it seems to me that our theory is more correct. Let's just say that they fly towards f-22 and Su-57. Let's say f-22 was the first to be discovered and, at a distance of 120 km, it was fired from a maximum distance, turned and flew away. What are the chances of rockets knocking out a su-57, super maneuverable, with electronic warfare and electronic warfare systems, and various traps? Moreover, having a small area of ​​reflective surface. No matter how you twist the radar, the GOS missiles are orders of magnitude less powerful than the radar of an airplane. I think that the probability of hitting is not great. Moreover, the su-57 has a meter range radar, which means that it will be aware of the presence of the f-22, and will expect an attack. We get the result, f-22 firing off empty to the base and, with a high degree of probability, hanging on its tail Su-57 with full ammunition. Even if another plane rises towards the base, close combat cannot be avoided.
I deliberately do not mention Avax and other radars, a purely duel.

[Indifferent]

I agree! All the same they wrote in the era of the Vietnam War. “Long-range” missiles decide everything. Then the Americans developed the Sidewinder missiles. And all the same, "dog dumps" were not uncommon and the weak Vietnamese won.

[Mwg]

Truly, only aerial combat can show who was right and who was wrong in their concepts.
So far, behind the words of the Chinese is their desire to justify the slowness of their technology

[The leader of the Redskins]

And what about the Chinese "agility" according to ancient manuscripts? Wait for the corpse of the enemy to fly by along the river (in this case, heavenly)?

[Narak-zempo]

Quote: Leader of the Redskins

And what about the Chinese "agility" according to ancient manuscripts? Wait for the corpse of the enemy to fly by along the river (in this case, heavenly)?

They so bequeathed to Sasun-in-Laozi

[Poetry]

How would they know? Also for me, there were "warriors". Have you forgotten how the Japanese cut them with katanas so as not to waste the bullets?

[Alexey Sommer]

Quote: Poetiszaugla

Was it like the Japanese cut them with katanas so as not to waste bullets?

What does it have to do with it?

[Poetry]

This despite the fact that combat experience is different. It would be better if they tried to develop something of their own, and not repeat it like monkeys.

[Alexey Sommer]

Have you at least developed a potty of the night to express opinions on serious issues?
Or just go into it?

[Poetry]

I go to the toilet designed before me.

[Alexey Sommer]

So you haven’t developed anything at all?
And why then such conceit? Once you allow yourself to judge serious things, and even with sadistic inclinations?

[Poetry]

Calm down, otherwise the pressure will rise.

[snake]

Quote: Alexey Sommer

Have you ever developed a pot at night?

He's not a techie to design something. He is a "poet"! The intelligentsia shuffle ... Loves to compose poems about excrement. He did not invent the pot, but the pot is inspired by this.

[Piramidon]

Quote: Alexey Sommer

What does it have to do with it?

Remind significant victories in the history of the Chinese armed forces. Basically, they defeated them.

[poquello]

Quote: Piramidon

Quote: Alexey Sommer

What does it have to do with it?

Remind significant victories in the history of the Chinese armed forces. Basically, they defeated them.

if the air force wrote, and the sun please - korean, drove the Americans with a speed of run

[Piramidon]

Quote: poquello

drove the Americans with running speed

If the Soviet Union did not support equipment, weapons and specialists, then where would this Chinese army be?

[poquello]

Quote: Piramidon

Quote: poquello

drove the Americans with running speed

If the Soviet Union did not support equipment, weapons and specialists, then where would this Chinese army be?

would the Chinese be?

[VyacheSeymour]

Remind significant victories in the history of the Chinese armed forces. Basically, they defeated them.

Why remind victory? ...- It is enough to compare the number of losers and winners of all taken together ...

[the Saint]

Well, like, the Japanese with katanas are now for us and against NATO and China. )

[snake]

Quote: Poetiszaugla

Forgot how Japanese cut them with katanas so as not to spend bullets?

This is where and when it happened?

[Poetry]

In Nanjing, for example. Half a million.

[snake]

Mirnyak and unarmed soldiers were slaughtered. This does not say anything about the "fighting" of the Chinese soldiers. This speaks of the cruelty of the Japanese. Serbs, for example, the Ustashi were also massively killed with cold. Will anyone say that Serbs are bad warriors?

[Poetry]

They do not have the combat experience of victorious wars, which I spoke of. And they also have warriors. Jackie Chan, for example.

[snake]

Quote: Poetiszaugla

They have no combat experience of victorious wars.

Did the experience of the victorious wars of the Russian army in Chechnya really help? Any experience can be nullified if the commanders are traitors and fools, and the soldiers are intimidated and not motivated.

[Poetry]

It was not a good war (First). Our "tsar" was drunk, and there was a war on the streets of our cities. And there were killed more than in Afghanistan.

[snake]

Well, what am I talking about? But after Afghanistan only 5 years have passed. Do not underestimate the Chinese and throw their hats. And experience in military affairs tends to quickly become obsolete and lose relevance.

[Poetry]

No, their drill training is on the level. Now they, for the first time in many years, have had enough of their fill and armed themselves well. But they are not friends to us. Therefore, we do not need to relax.
By the way, I’m writing for some 5 years since Mom left the world of living people. And so, an ordinary person. He was wounded, that is, he will kill.
Peace to you.

[Charik]

Would read the article, it was about amerskie aviki not far from China, there "warriors" tore the Chinese tightly

[poquello]

Quote: serpent

Quote: Poetiszaugla

They have no combat experience of victorious wars.

Did the experience of the victorious wars of the Russian army in Chechnya really help? Any experience can be nullified if the commanders are traitors and fools, and the soldiers are intimidated and not motivated.

Well, firstly, the terrorists were destroyed there, and secondly, this bastard was not without experience

[snake]

Quote: poquello

Well, firstly, the terrorists were destroyed there

They destroyed it, but it turns out that they began to comprehend the art of war as if from scratch. Paying for it with a lot of blood, health and lives ...

[poquello]

Quote: serpent

They destroyed it, but it turns out that they began to comprehend the art of war as if from scratch.

) ISIS also from scratch?

[snake]

From scratch, not from scratch, but there was also something to learn. After all:

Not a single plan can withstand a meeting with an adversary. (from)

[Revolver]

Quote: poquello

Well, firstly, the terrorists were destroyed there

Rather bought off, and continue to pay. Does the name "Kadyrov" say anything? Not that elbow-deep in Russian blood, Ober-terrorist. For the loot that suits him, all of Chechnya could have been resettled to the Kazakh steppes many times, Stalin coped with it in a matter of days.

[poquello]

Quote: Nagan

Quote: poquello

Well, firstly, the terrorists were destroyed there

Rather bought off, and continue to pay. Does the name "Kadyrov" say anything? Not that elbow-deep in Russian blood, Ober-terrorist. For the loot that suits him, all of Chechnya could have been resettled to the Kazakh steppes many times, Stalin coped with it in a matter of days.

Yes, Akhmad Kadyrov, the Mufti of Ichkeria, that is, bandits came to the federal TV channel and said that all this struggle for the independence of the crap organized by bandits and terrorists, from the inside it turned out to be more visible. On October 5, 2003, Akhmat Kadyrov was elected president of the Chechen Republic. 80,84% ​​of the total number of registered voters voted for him. On May 9, 2004, Akhmat Kadyrov died as a result of a terrorist act.
The names "Khattab, Abu al-Walid, Abu Dzeit" do not say anything?

our American partners are verbally speaking about Russia's support, they are talking about their willingness to cooperate, including in the fight against terrorism, but in fact they are using these terrorists to rock the domestic political situation in Russia, ”Vladimir Putin said. - Speaking of political support, this does not need proof. This was done publicly, openly. As for operational support, financial support, we have such evidence and, moreover, we even presented some of it to our American colleagues

[Revolver]

Quote: poquello

The names "Khattab, Abu al-Walid, Abu Dzeit" do not say anything?

Representatives of the very fraternal Arab people that you so sincerely support against the "Zionist aggressors."

[Svarog]

It’s just that both Americans and Chinese do not possess super-maneuverable fighters and are trying to convince themselves that this option is not needed. But this is just one of the options that is an advantage.

[SAG]

Russian theory of super maneuverability is not suitable for future air combat

Translation from Chinese: "We are not able to make such fighters even in 50-70 years. Therefore, we choose tyranny and self-persuasion."

[Simargl]

Quote: Svarog

trying to convince themselves that this option is not needed.

So she is not needed until they noticed

[Observer2014]

According to him, the American F-22 is “completely different,” since the American concept of the development of combat aircraft is based on stealth technologies and early detection.

And what makes it difficult to make the plane inconspicuous. And super maneuverable with the same concept of early detection? Do super-maneuverable that there absorbing paint flies off or what? And who prevents modern sensors and radars from being super-maneuverable for early detection? But it will reach small and medium distances and super-maneuverable will be happiness. And just "stealth" as it flew like a "log", so it will continue to be a log

[Alexey Sommer]

Quote: Observer2014

But it will reach small and medium distances and happiness will be super-maneuverable

That's just the point that will not reach.

[Klingon]

their paint on the F-22 just flies off and even without super maneuverability

[wowka]

Quote: Observer2014

Who prevents modern sensors in the ultra-maneuverable set for early detection?

Uncle! If everything was so simple - to instruct sensors and radars - then everyone would always be in chocolate and no one would have advantages in weapons. They made fun, however .. although your epaulettes are cooler than those of Shoigu, have they served on "patriotism"? (nothing personal, but write about what you understand)

Quote: Observer2014

what makes it difficult to make the plane invisible. And super maneuverable with the same concept of early detection

Well, if you understand the philosophy of your question, then the answer suggests itself: it interferes to different degrees at different stages:
1. lack of finance
2. lack of technology
3. lack of brains
and to some extent the lack of time sometimes interferes (for example, as it was in Nazi Germany).
I will simply keep silent about the "log".
Otherwise you are right

[VO3A]

You are right in many ways ... A lot of things are connected with technologies, access to which we will be limited and will be limited ... For the radar of light we need energy on board and highly efficient equipment .. We lose in the dimensions and energy efficiency of the equipment ... We have generators and electronic components are almost 2 times larger than theirs .. and yet, in power they are almost 2 times inferior ... Do you think why foreign equipment is being put on our civilian aircraft? Forced !!! And shouting about yours, about import substitution is easy ... It’s good that everything is in order with our brains, and we have money ... We need to use these brains and money more efficiently ... Fat-faced problems with this ... But it’s easy to praise maneuverability ... only until close combat, which the pyndos are trying to eliminate, still need to fly ...

[voyaka uh]

"And what prevents to make the plane and unobtrusive.
And super-maneuverable with the same early detection concept? "////
----
Design features interfere:
full angle rotary nozzles fully
open and worsen stealth.
Direct air intakes that increase traction also greatly reduce stealth.

[NEXUS]

Quote: voyaka uh

full angle rotary nozzles fully
open and worsen stealth.

And in the opposite direction, how sideways will this help the enemy’s radar?

Quote: voyaka uh

Direct air intakes that increase traction also greatly reduce stealth.

You yourself are not tired of this mantra about stealth technology then? Stealth technology is not a panacea in real air combat from the word at all. This technology may and partly works against weak radars, but for 50 years everything has been known about it. And do you really get the idea that this is not taken into account when creating new radars?

[voyaka uh]

Is there a mysterious Rofar?

[NEXUS]

Quote: voyaka uh

Is there a mysterious Rofar?

Can you talk about the possibilities of Squirrel?

[Alex777]

Rofar on the way.
Tell me, what are the nozzles of the Su-57 on the engines of the second stage?
And the Hunter in the second stage? It's definitely flat here.
And what is stopping you?

[3danimal]

Rofar will appear in a year on all Russian fighters! The main thing is to believe ..

[Alex777]

The man had fun, I supported ..

[Cyril G ...]

And why then on the F-35 is not flat? How so!?

[Alex777]

Goodbye forever.

[3danimal]

Stealth technology works against all centimeter and decimeter radars, reducing the detection range by several times. The strong, the weak, 2-4-8 times, depends on the EPR in this perspective.
Which gives a noticeable tactical advantage.
With a “meter” radar (against which the radio-absorbing COATINGS are ineffective, but special geometry still works), you will not be able to direct a rocket, only airplanes. And you can’t put such a fighter.

[A. Privalov]

Air combat tactics have changed significantly over the past 40 years. Especially, this became evident with the appearance in the mid-70s of air-to-air missiles of the "fire and forget" type, serious homing systems with object recognition, etc.

[Cyril G ...]

Quote: A. Privalov

Especially, this became evident with the appearance in the mid-70s of air-to-air missiles of the "fire and forget" type, serious homing systems with object recognition, etc.

No, it’s just that the fights are much smaller. Yes, but I shot and forgot that it doesn’t work as a rule, well, except for melee missiles like R-73, American Sidewinder and Israeli Python .. For an AiM-120 missile to hit at least somewhere it needs to be pulled to the target by radio correction and figuratively poked at her nose.

[A. Privalov]

Quote: Cyril G ...

No, it’s just that the fights are much smaller. Yes, but I shot and forgot that it doesn’t work as a rule, well, except for melee missiles like R-73, American Sidewinder and Israeli Python .. For an AiM-120 missile to hit at least somewhere it needs to be pulled to the target by radio correction and figuratively poked at her nose.

In the 1960s and 80s, fighter tactics were built on the desire to detect the enemy as early as possible and launch missiles before enemy aircraft could do this. The determining factors in this case were the capabilities of the on-board electronic complex of the fighter, its interaction with other ground and air means of long-range detection and control, as well as the presence of long-range missiles in the arsenal of the fighter. However, the appearance of stealth combat aircraft shifted emphasis.

Up to this point, everything seems to be normal.
But in the following quote, contains a system error.

If both warring parties use stealth fighters, long-range aerial combat may become impossible in principle. The supersonic cruising speed of fifth-generation fighters combined with reduced radar visibility will make long-range combat too transient and ineffective, opponents simply will not have time to use medium-range missiles. The only form of armed confrontation in the air will remain close air combat.

[GELEZNII_KAPUT]

The most sensible thought!

[Dali]

Quote: A. Privalov

But in the following quote, contains a system error.

Without a specific analysis, these are just your words ...

Although what I ... think so on ...

[Cyril G ...]

Tell me, where do you see a system error?

If, for example, both of our opponents already have stealth fighters, how do you imagine the Far Eastern Military District?

[A. Privalov]

Quote: Cyril G ...

Tell me, where do you see a system error?

The mistake is that most of those present imagine an invisible plane like this:

[Cyril G ...]

You are self-critical today ....

[3danimal]

Captures the target from 20-30km.

[Cyril G ...]

In the absence of interference, and for the MiG-31 type target

[3danimal]

No, for a 4+ fighter with an ESR of 1m2. The "mastodon" of the 31st will see yeshe sooner.
In the presence of interference, it is induced at their source. Am I right here too lazy to shovel technical literature? Is it easier for you to use stamps?

[Cyril G ...]

Quote: 3danimal

In the presence of interference, it is induced at their source.

Disturbances are different.

Quote: 3danimal

No, for a 4+ fighter with an ESR of 1m2.

Link will be?

[Herman 4223]

A little more modest
The radiation power is 0,5 square meters. X range. 16 km on target 3m2.
https://missilery.info/missile/aim120

[Cyril G ...]

So I saw about the same figure. If there was a real figure of 30 km / 1 sq.m., there it would be possible even for the Republic of Kazakhstan to not particularly bother ..

[3danimal]

The MiG-31 EPR 20-25m2, about 8 times more than the "standard" 3m2. So the GOS will see him just from 30km. A very convenient, low-maneuverable target.

[Cyril G ...]

Quote: 3danimal

EPR 20-25m2,

And who told you that there is such a figure?

[3danimal]

Found such data. In general - look at its huge .. air intakes with open compressor blades

[Cyril G ...]

And where? It makes no sense to peer anywhere. They have been sitting at our airport for a long time.

[3danimal]

Good sit
Aircraft of large size, larger than F-15 (it has about 15 m2, without RPM)

[3danimal]

Wrong: 16-18km for 3m2 EPR, which, however, also applies to the generation of 4+ fighters
https://missilery.info/missile/aim120

[maksbazhin]

So far, as I understand it, there are no ways to counter a missile attacking you, but sooner or later there will be, for example, missiles or something like that. And then super-maneuverability will come in handy - turned to the side of the rocket, fired at it, blinded it, whatever it was and dumped to the side. Is such a battle scenario possible?

[qQQQ]

Quote: maksbazhin

Is such a battle scenario possible?

It is possible only while you are dancing with a tambourine, moving away from the rocket, while spending fuel and doing only your own survival, there is no longer any talk about the implementation of the task. Well, then there are even more options, either the enemy will take a more advantageous position and finish off, or he will go to the object you are guarding, etc. In general, in this vein, I see American tactics as more productive and correct. Our concept of super-maneuverability, in my opinion, is a necessary measure because of the lag in electronics. And you do not forget that in order to conduct a BVB, the desire of both parties is nevertheless necessary, and with DVB no one will ask permission.

[maksbazhin]

So I write, first of all, about a counterattack, and not about evasion.

[qQQQ]

Quote: maksbazhin

So I write, first of all, about a counterattack, and not about evasion.

Your scenario, all the same, foresees, first of all, a maneuver for a turn in the direction of the rocket, and this is almost the scenario described above, with the only difference being that you launch missile defense.

[Cyril G ...]

So with DVB and the enemy it’s easier to break the contact ... Yes, and judging by the real battles during the Storm in the Desert, they were hit by medium-range missiles uhhh.

[Klingon]

why complicate things, make a U-turn to launch anti-missiles against missiles, ... a rotary turret laser will work against missiles in the foreseeable future and will work like: as soon as the sensors detect radar irradiation, the shutters open, the turret extends and laser shoots at the approaching missiles , that’s all that a garden to fence,

[maksbazhin]

The laser then needs to be aimed at the target, and here the narrowly focused AFAR is good.

[Klingon]

and how do rockets aim at an airplane? the rocket either has its own radar or IR head or a combination is illuminated with a laser or more often. So, can't a laser be guided by a missile radar? it seems to me that the future aircraft coverage will be "smart" and will determine many parameters. A sort of "skin". and these parameters are transmitted to the OMS with AI, which will analyze the information and aim the laser ...
In addition, you can equip all aircraft with an additional radar in the tail as on the Su-34

[Grazdanin]

Currently, UAV escorts are being tested, XQ58 for example. Three UAVs fly with one F35 manned aircraft. One has a radar to detect enemy aircraft, if an attack is launched on it, 3 other UAVs open fire on the attackers. F2, as it flew in stealth mode, so it flies, it only controls the UAV, as a result, relatively cheap pieces of iron are lost on the one hand, and expensive fighters and people on the other.

[Klingon]

Urikaly with this concept will not agree. they all think that airplane battles will happen as in War Thunder

[Cyril G ...]

Quote: Grazdanin

relatively cheap pieces of iron,

Such pieces of iron will cost more than a manned fighter ...

[Grazdanin]

No, of course, at times they will be cheaper than existing 4oks. I’m talking about the Low Cost Attritable Aviation Technologies program, they want to achieve a product price of $ 2-3 million in mass production. What of course I doubt But UTAP-22 Mako can come close to this figure, without additional equipment.
In this concept, all the main equipment remains in the fighter, on the UAV weapons and auxiliary. In the example, I indicated the radar, but it is enough to install the emitter, and not a full-fledged radar.

[Cyril G ...]

Let's see how it ends

[Charik]

then Dryings operate under the cover of S400 air defense and radar Sky, in the end someone lost expensive glands, and the planes and pilots are intact

[Piramidon]

Quote: maksbazhin

there is no way to counter a rocket attacking you

There are many examples of avoiding an attacking rocket, even before the advent of engines with high-voltage weapons and the presence of super-maneuverability.

[maksbazhin]

They write a lot about good things and not much good, it is necessary to counterattack.

[Dali]

Quote: maksbazhin

They write a lot about good things and not much good, it is necessary to counterattack.

Care is needed to effectively counterattack!

[Piramidon]

Quote: maksbazhin

They write a lot about good things and not much good, it is necessary to counterattack.

Before counterattacking, you need to get out of the attack on yourself. Or do you think that it is necessary, in spite of the rockets flying at you, to shove on them for the sake of a counterattack?

[3danimal]

For super-maneuvers, you will have to slow down and lose energy.

[3danimal]

When the lasers become powerful enough and compact, it will be possible to defend and attack them (from fighters).
And now options are being worked out for intercepting missiles using modern short-range missile systems.

[3danimal]

You can shoot (with a rocket at a rocket) without over maneuverability. Blind (with the help of a jamming protection station) - too. But ARL GOS have a pointing mode at the source of interference.

[Eug]

In addition to evasion opportunities, over-maneuverability gives the pilot confidence in any mode that the pilot will apply in battle. In addition, as I understand it, no one is going to deprive the Su-57 of the ability to detect an enemy sufficiently early, at least by the radiation of an enemy radar. There is probably an SPO-cabinet on the Su-57, and direct radiation in any case (even from AFAR in LPI mode, at least in any other version) is easier to detect and isolate than reflected.

[3danimal]

How do you get such confidence that a plane with a radar in LPI mode is easy to detect? In addition, the Su-35/57 will fly blindly, with the radar turned off?

[Charik]

Open source software and OLS-suitable?

[3danimal]

The range is many times less. You are attacked from a distance of 100 kilometers (with a maximum range of AIM-120 d7 - 180 km). And the OLS sees a maximum of 50 km .. And the STR will warn you after the capture of the GOS, when the missiles are 20 km from you.
(The detection range in LPI mode is 160-190 km).

[Charik]

Max range is at what altitude -km 20? And doesn’t it inherit at this altitude — the inversion there or the afterburner to keep it — but where are the ranges of the 180-yas from? 100km doesn’t sit in place - and isn’t there any means of detecting missile launch? As long as 20 km before the operation of the target, the missile flies, you can turn it away?

[3danimal]

There are launch detection tools (may try to detect an OLS with an appropriate range).
All explosive missiles with solid propellant rocket engines first gain altitude of the order of 30 + km, where there is minimal air resistance and fly most of the route there. Hence, such a range (180km maximum).
Starting from 100km - for energy reserves in case of protective maneuvers.
You will not see the inversion at such a range.
Fighters of 4-5 generations do not need the fast and the furious to fly 20km.
Optimal for counteraction - to have low visibility like an opponent and radar with LPI mode.
Otherwise - multiple superior losses, with equal strengths of the parties.

[Charik]

30 km? Dagger or SM-? One-on-one and ols and super-maneuvers and stealth cover-rolls-well, and the outcome of the battle will be decided, as always, by the training of the pilot, and if the UAV is screwed to the F35 like some, then under the cover of air defense and will defend and not attack mindlessly the technique 'invisible' with supersuper rockets

[3danimal]

In the considered embodiment, the collision occurs without covering ground-based radars / AWACS aircraft. Who have the same problems against inconspicuous targets.
At 30 km, the same Amraam takes off (all modern explosive missiles with long-range solid propellant rocket engines), when launched over a long distance.
OLS-35 sees the target at a maximum of 40km in the teaching staff. You will have to turn on your radars and look for the enemy, which will interfere with the implementation of protective maneuvers. (Which do not give any guarantees, especially when launching 2 missiles at a target. Let me remind you, it’s enough to fly 5-7 meters to successfully defeat.)

[Charik]

But the enemy will not turn on the radar - do you need to escort the missile? Until the capture of the GSN-if for PMV and hide-and-seek behind the terrain, what is the chance of a sso 100km to hit

[3danimal]

The rocket is escorted without any illumination, it is not possible to detect this (as well as with our P-77 counterpart). For hide and seek behind the relief you need to know that you are attacked and the direction of the attack.
In this case, the range is half less than the maximum and the rocket has a lot of energy left for maneuvers. As I said, it’s enough to blow up 5-7 meters (the laser proximity sensor is triggered) to damage / remove the fighter from the battle.
Such opportunities and the tactics used are extremely dangerous, you can try to “shove the numbers”, but the ranks of the attackers will be greatly thinned out. We need a reduction in visibility and equipping AFAR radars with LPI mode, we need purchases (to replace old missiles with a semi-active seeker and the first modifications of the R-77) of a significant number of AIM-120D analogs.

[Cyril G ...]

Quote: 3danimal

The rocket is escorted without any illumination, it is not possible to detect this (as well as with our P-77 counterpart).

Again crap, a colleague, study the materiel. If you are irradiating your enemy with your radar no matter how, then the target is identified by the STR with a high probability

[3danimal]

STR reliably detects operation in LPI mode? It does not even stand next to the backlight power of the RVV with a semi-active GOS. And the distance is great, in the region of 100km (in this example)

[Cyril G ...]

Of course, this mode is being discovered.

[Cyril G ...]

I repeat - it doesn’t matter anymore that you are irradiated with EPI or in normal mode - after the 14th year, Pastel finds this mode without problems.

[telobezumnoe]

both dlro and others can irradiate and direct missiles into the proposed square .. the plane just goes to the launch site and that’s all, it doesn’t need to turn on even lpi .. and it sees well everything that any other plane sees in the common information space

[Cyril G ...]

Quote: telobezumnoe

both dlro and others can irradiate and induce missiles into the proposed square.

Cannot from the word at all

[telobezumnoe]

our a50 can give target designation, as well as provide illumination for guiding the rocket, and in this regard, we can modestly keep silent about their dlro f35 capabilities in this regard, we will not have such a thing soon. in general, such non-peremptory statements ..

[Cyril G ...]

What are you talking about now? Be so kind as to explain what you wanted to say on each item, otherwise you somehow mixed everything together.

[Eug]

I have no such confidence. I’m saying that a DIRECT signal is easier to distinguish because it is much more powerful than the reflected one. But the radar of the irradiated plane is turned off or on, and it’s all the same if I’m not talking about the range of mutual detection, but only about highlighting a direct signal.

[Cyril G ...]

Quote: 3danimal

t with radar in lpi mode easy to detect?

From the age of 14, we learned how to recognize LPI, since there’s nothing supernatural there,

[3danimal]

Interestingly, this miracle open source system is on all aircraft? I doubt it. Again, LPI settings could tweak.

[Cyril G ...]

Pastel .... And there was a question not in hardware, even software. You dear would have figured it out before making statements about the miracle radar working on the study, but for some reason it is "invisible" for RTR stations, As an entot most ElPiAi works and at the same time about the essence of the radar equation. And twisting is useless.

[3danimal]

At present, the scenario I have proposed is more than realistic. The “appearance” of STRs perceiving radiation in the LPI mode in 2014 does not mean their spread. We presented KAZ for tanks in general 20 years ago, and where are they? The Israelis developed and used in the army for 10+ years, and we only have conversations.
Similarly, on how many fighters (in%) are the same P-77s (at least), instead of the obsolete P-27s? (About the distribution of new systems)

[Cyril G ...]

Quote: 3danimal

The “appearance” of STRs perceiving radiation in the LPI mode in 2014 does not mean their spread.

Once again, you do not understand how it works. You do not want to understand how the radar equation works. There was no new iron there. Enough software refinement.

Quote: 3danimal

in%) are the same R-77s (at least), instead of the obsolete R-27s?

Also a Newton’s binom for me - About 20-25 Su-27S / P naval and 12 Su-33 can not use the R-77 and the old MiG-29 in Eribuni. The R-77s are capable of being used and recorded in the photo with the AKU-170 MiG-31BSM (approx. 120-130 units), Su-34 (approx. 120 units), Su-27cm / cm3 (approx. 70 units), Su- 35 (approx. 100 units) Su-30cm (approx. 100 units), MiG-29SMT (approx. 50), MiG-29K (22 units)
And another moment, the target illumination for the R-27R / ER is needed at the final stage of the flight, before that it is also pulled by radio corrections

[3danimal]

Su-57 needs LPI mode and a greater reduction in ESR. By the way, the declared target tracking characteristics n036 are inferior to AN / APG-77 and APG-82: 64 targets versus 100.

[Cyril G ...]

Quote: 3danimal

64 goals against 100.

This is scholasticism

[3danimal]

On the contrary, the specifics. Data claimed by manufacturers.

[Cyril G ...]

Scholasticism. What will this figure give you? what's the difference 100 goals followed or 30 for your pathetic 8 missiles?

[3danimal]

The ability for the aircraft to direct allies and control a large area of ​​the sky.

[SVD68]

Maybe it's time to stop retelling Chinese articles? They carry nothing but rampant fantasies.

[GELEZNII_KAPUT]

Quote: SVD68

Maybe it's time to stop retelling Chinese articles? They carry nothing but rampant fantasies.

But what a massive srach in the comments!

[sleeve]

In some way it resembles the ship ideology. The "fast" ships were less armed and weaker armored, but possessed distance and battlefield. And the heavy turtles remained so and the artillery adapted and eventually pierced them.
The "miracle" of stealth is a matter of technological development of the already launched standard line of detection tools.

[3danimal]

So you can not do without the use of centimeter and decimeter frequencies. They give both range and accuracy. And against them, the most effective measures to reduce visibility.

[Junior Warrant Officer]

And why are articles being discussed all the time from the Chinese counterpart of Yandex Zen? In the Russian segment of the Internet, you can’t read anything like that. We can say that the land of Russia has not yet become idiotic, it is not necessary to feed nonsense in China.

[Private-K]

This apparently very young Chinese "expert" did not even bother with a superficial study of American publications in those years when F22 was being created and built. And there it is that "super-maneuverability" (tm), "cruising supersonic without afterburner" (tm) in combination with a reduced radar signature.
F22 was created in order to guaranteefully surpass the performance characteristics of the Su-27 - precisely and, above all, the performance characteristics.
Those. "young Chinese expert" - hit the sky with his finger.

[Kapkan]

As soon as the "specialists" stop considering the Su-57 in isolation from the ground-based air defense with the doctrine of "denial of access", new horizons of knowledge will immediately open for them.
Well, as my friend, a pilot, said, "We will always impose close combat on them. They just don't understand it yet."

[3danimal]

Ok, but you have to live to close combat. And if the enemy is training hard and hard to avoid close combat, then such a “breakthrough” will certainly not be simple, as well as the number of losses will increase.

[Kapkan]

Yes, here you are right. Very few of them will survive. And as regards melee, as such, it is not meant over the territory of Russia. Well it is, note.

[3danimal]

I did not consider such an option (over the territory).
But listen, if from the initial 10 to 10 2-4 to 10 will remain - this is a loss. Maneuvers against melee missiles with UVT will not help much when they shoot at you from different directions. Then what's the point?
Let me remind you that the number of pilots and planes is limited, the ability to reproduce them is inferior to the conditional enemy. Su-30/35 do not “rivet” fast.
I wonder what territories you mean melee fights over.

[Alexey Sommer]

The Chinese, of course, are still experts. But there is some truth in the words of this Ketai expert.

[alstr]

In fact, at least one aerobatics figure can drop missile guidance - this is a bell.

[3danimal]

Against modern GOS missiles will no longer work. The target has lost energy and is inactive - everything is only being simplified.

[alstr]

Actually, on the contrary. All GOS and even radar air defense systems are based on extrapolation of the trajectory based on previous data. Plus a time lag between sensor polls.
And the bell is such a not so pleasant figure for the radar and the seeker. Because extrapolation of the trajectory goes up, and the plane itself moves down (after the highest point). And it is at this moment that a breakdown of escort can occur. Moreover, if the radar uses only the Doppler effect, then the tracking failure can occur for reasons of speed 0.
And if the radar has the opportunity to work out such a maneuver by the operator (and even with appropriate training), then such a zigzag is hardly registered in the GOS.

[jovanni]

No, well, if the Chinese say, then of course! These are famous masters of air combat! They have repeatedly shown the superiority of their strategy in severe air battles. True, speculatively basically ...

[Free wind]

Subtle planes, they are frontal and smaller in lateral projection, when maneuvering, it will sparkle with the entire plane on any radar. Therefore, he noticed the enemy’s plane, launched a rocket, and carefully, gas to the floor, ditch everyone from the traffic light.

[3danimal]

So the fact of the matter is that the inconspicuous you will see (and attack) earlier. Just out of the blue, you will find out that 2 missiles are flying at you from the ARL GSN ..

[Mountain shooter]

The "stealth" that has turned on the locator is no longer stealth, but a clearly distinguishable target. He is invisible as long as he does not see anything himself, but only receives information via communication channels from any AWACS and ground posts ... Through a satellite or something else ... This is a complicated thing - modern air combat ... with the use of everything and everything ... and the suppression of everything and everyone, the massive use of electronic warfare, the suppression or destruction of satellites, and AWACS are generally the most delicious targets! For long-range air defense missiles. How can you protect the huge planes from them, shining like a Christmas tree in the radio range!

[Grazdanin]

Quote: Mountain Shooter

"Stealth" that has turned on the locator, is no longer stealth, but a clearly distinguishable target

He does not have to turn on the radar himself. In the near future, the radar will use an accompanying UAV.

Quote: Mountain Shooter

AWACs are generally the most delicious goals! For long-range air defense missiles

In advance, you do not need to enter the air defense zone. To bring him down need fighters.

[Catsoi]

Quote: Grazdanin

In advance, you do not need to enter the air defense zone. To bring him down need fighters.

Any ground-based air defense is an order of magnitude POWERFUL, FAREST, WIDE-RANGE :), and besides, it is geographically more distributed. To shoot down an advance, you just need a ground or air launcher, not necessarily the nearest one. Avax will be spotted even at the start from airfields, and they can be shot down there already ...

[telobezumnoe]

you probably don’t know what a radio horizon is and why do the Avaks still see further, and how were you going to shoot it down and generally see the starts from airfields?

[Avior]

They limit the ability to detect
On f-22 is a very developed RTR intelligence station with 30 sensors.
The radar turns on only for a short time before launch, using the lpi mode.
On f-35 in addition there is also a full-sphere viewing system

[Catsoi]

Quote: Avior

The radar turns on only for a short time before launch, using the lpi mode.

As soon as the AFAR turned towards the front, and not towards the ground - consider it INCLUDED !!! And do not care what kind of regimes this MIRROR uses with a 0,8m diameter, covered by a radio-transparent cap.

[Avior]

It does not turn at all, it has electronic control.
And he has no mirror, only PMM, which have a very low reflectivity.

[Dali]

Quote: Avior

It does not turn at all, it has electronic control.

And how does this electronic control work ... haven't the radio waves taught the teams how to perform?

[3danimal]

Learn materiel

[Catsoi]

Quote: Avior

And he has no mirror, only PMM, which have a very low reflectivity.

Yeah, each APM with its own antenna is just a black hole

[3danimal]

Forget about LPI mode (which is the highlight of AFAR). Nothing “glows”, all within the background.

[telobezumnoe]

glowing .. this is an analogue of PPCh in a wide range, hence the difficulty to notice, since the power is spread out over the range and you need sensitive equipment to distinguish these bursts from white noise, and mathematically attach them to the course, there is more mathematics of signal processing.

[Cyril G ...]

Crap. Alpai does not work like that. And you will not deceive the basic equation of radar with this spell.

[Doccor18]

Better to be super-manoeuvrable stelss than awkward ..

[Sergey Valov]

Better not to fight.

[Mavrikiy]

Quote: Sergey Valov

Better not to fight.

Nah, it's better not to write stupidity.

[rocket757]

The theory should be confirmed by practice, that's right, but who said / came up with that our air systems are designed only to dodge ???
Some kind of amateurish statement.

[Mavrikiy]

According to him, the American F-22 is “completely different,” since the American concept of the development of combat aircraft is based on stealth technologies and early detection.

-Dear Chinese! You are so smart. Stomp along the path you have drawn. You won’t be able to come up with anything yourself Or are you again, as the Indians fell into a stupor, and you can’t make a choice yourself? Need to drag us into controversy? Go through the forest, wise guys.

[Sergey Valov]

Over-maneuverability is possible only at low speeds, I think it’s not necessary to explain why. This is no longer a fountain. Second, the use of super-maneuverability leads to an additional loss of speed, which is also critical for aerial combat - while the super-maneuverable aircraft will spin at a scanty speed in the dog dump, the enemy will either easily knock it down.
Another caveat - our aircraft with super-maneuverability are heavy fighters, clearly losing the light in maneuverable combat.
The cruising speed of fighters in principle does not allow the use of super-maneuverability, what is the tactics of the combat use of aircraft with this possibility is a mystery to me.

[voyaka uh]

It's right. To use the maneuver with rotary nozzles, Dryers must be reset
speed up to 0.5-0.6 MAX. Americans know that. And in their tactics planes are provided -
beaters and arrow planes. Some twist loops with the enemy, forcing them to maneuver,
while others are looking from favorable angles to slow down before or after a sharp maneuver with nozzles
Dry and shoot them at these moments.
Tactics were tested in the Red Flag exercises against the Indian Su-30.

[Charik]

I think the Americans there made a blowjob to the Indians -and back in the last century, people flew to America in the 27th, so compete, and some not-so-small American aviator himself spoke to the camera but not much but oh-oh-ah

[sp77ark]

I agree. Plus, a side-view radar with a helmet-mounted target designation system for an all-perspective rocket withstanding 40G or more can negate all the advantage of super maneuverability in the BVB. And all this is already there.

[bars1]

Yeah, the Americans so "rely" on long-range air combat that they paint their "aggressors" like Russian fighters - recently they began to paint in the colors of the Su-57 F-16. Explicitly practicing close combat

[Whirlwind]

That's right, right ... Why do you need this super-maneuverability and finally maneuverability ... The main thing is that the locator would early, early detect a target for 500, or better for 1000 km. and to him still in excess of super long-range missiles for the same 500-1000 km. battlefield. Why then can I fly somewhere? As a result, the locator and missiles will be grounded and the S-400 will turn out, and soon the S-500 (only for some reason not in the USA ...), then you can safely save on fighter interceptors.
Now it’s clear why the Americans have a tendency to not have Mig-31 type interceptors, which haven't existed for a long time, and C-400 type systems are still missing.
However, the trend according to Zadornov ...

[Mikle2000]

And what would they intercept with their interceptors and shoot down their S-500 in this of their America? What rare bird will fly there and where?

[Vestovo]

Russians still consider air combat at short and medium distances relevant.

That's right, we prefer to see the enemy, rather than quietly bomb and shoot ..

[JD1979]

It seems that either the Chinese write specifically for VO, or someone specifically selects such articles)). For they cause the effect of yeast in one place in the comments among the adherents of super-maneuverability and long-range combat, and 99% are a little better versed in this topic than the theory of relativity)

[Aleks2000]

Ah, what a dispute over the Chinese.
But in fact - already discussed earlier - over-maneuverability works up to 800 km an hour, best - 400 km an hour, that is, it’s the most for parades, and for pointing a rocket so that it doesn’t take a steam ....
Above - with sharp maneuvers, everything will supposedly be demolished by the air and fall off ...

At high speed, they wrote, the most ordinary things are important - the speed of rotation and rotation. And this is better for light single-engine aircraft ... by appearances at an air show it is clearly visible ...

[Dali]

Quote: Alex2000

At high speed, they wrote, the most ordinary things are important - the speed of rotation and rotation. And this is better for light single-engine aircraft ... by appearances at an air show it is clearly visible ...

Interesting, interesting, and what do you think affects the speed of a turn, etc. Or do you think the swivel nozzle does not affect the turning speed ?!

Well, and links to the studio where it is clearly visible that "And this is better for light single-engine aircraft ... you can clearly see from the performances at the air show ..." Yes, yes - bring a video. Where is the NATO single-engine fighter deployed faster at a speed of say 1700 km / h?

[Aleks2000]

And at a speed of 2500 you can not bring? ))) Lip no fool)))
You need, you are looking for))).

[storm]

And how much are the Chinese great experts ???
If not for the USSR and Russia, they would still fly kites ...

[Fedorovich]

Disruption of capture? No, not heard ...

[Desert Battleship]

It may very well happen that EW means will leave opponents without missiles, here super-maneuverability with guns will come in handy!

[Catsoi]

Yes, and rockets in this stealth breaks with Uglkin nose :)

[pepel]

Their fifth generation does not exist, so someone else's and hayut. The J20 is not the fifth generation in 4+ engines. They are worn with this inconspicuousness like Americans, although this concept has not shown itself in reality, but only in advertising brochures. It's like children who close their eyes: "I don't see, so they don't see me either."

[Knell wardenheart]

We probably assume that advances in radar and detection are easier to achieve than advances in coatings and an effective compromise between aerodynamics and stealth design.

[chingachguc]

over-maneuverability requires, on the one hand, outstanding engines, and, on the other, excellent aerodynamics and materials. If you have neither one nor the other, you can simply declare the super maneuverability obsolete. Neither China nor the United States have this, so they rely on stealth, which in fact can realize its advantages in certain ideal conditions: 1. the enemy does not have space reconnaissance equipment. 2. the enemy does not have means of a long-range meter radar and a centimeter-range radar, there are no quantum radars. 3. The enemy does not have EW facilities 4. The weather should be cloudy 5. The enemy has no advantage in speed or maneuverability 6. The enemy is not able to conduct a network-centric war and exchange data in real time 7. The enemy has only weak air defense means 8 The first attack with long-range missiles should destroy the enemy, because if it fails, the stealth loses all the advantages

[Crash]

That's what they are designed for. Slowly shoot on the ground and quickly wash off. On the enemy’s plane is fraught - God forbid you miss, but at subsonic speed (they are no longer allowed) and with little maneuverability try still to escape

[Catsoi]

No, well, the USA, why did you fasten to China? :)
They do not have outstanding engines, excellent aerodynamics (we are not talking about F22 / 35 in principle) and materials? Outdated, the United States declared them to everyone else, so as not to rock the boat to pump them :)

[chingachguc]

Yes, the USA has composite materials. On engines they lag behind. Aerodynamics has never been a strong point of US aviation, and now they have also sacrificed it to stealth (these are mutually exclusive concepts). What the US has always surpassed us in is avionics. Here we are forever catching up.

[Avior]

. no quantum radars.

You are intrigued
Can you name a couple of models?

[chingachguc]

Now promising models, but five years later they will be put into service. Or are you in doubt?

[Avior]

Visit the site in five years, write models, discuss

[Bez 310]

The article has reasons.
It's time to make our planes inconspicuous, give them
Long Range Radar and Long Range Missiles
launch range. Then super-maneuverability will be in a row.
And on this super-maneuverability alone you will not go far ...

[evgen1221]

Think logically and correctly, but the elephant can eat it and give it to him. I’m thinking that invisibility for modern radars is fake and PR, and if that were the case, then nobody would shine with such shorts (in the sense of PR).

[Bez 310]

I didn't write anything about "invisibility".

[Andrey.AN]

Over-maneuverability will never be superfluous, takeoff - landing is shorter, in defense there is a bonus to dodge or missile defense, there is nothing to say about close combat, for stealth it gives an obvious plus to the mode of envelope relief. Wherever you spit, you need it.

[Dali]

Quote: Andrey.AN

Over-maneuverability will never be superfluous, takeoff - landing is shorter, in defense there is a bonus to dodge or missile defense, there is nothing to say about close combat, for stealth it gives an obvious plus to the mode of envelope relief. Wherever you spit, you need it.

I see specific arguments for oververting ...
But I don’t see any arguments against two citizens who put a minus ... awww nothing to say - all we can do is click on the left mouse button

[Andrey.AN]

These are adherents of a flat earth, or the water world, in which no one will ever meet from around the corner.

[evgen1221]

The USSR had a big war and it was a massive war, the Americans in the masses remotely bombed the masses, hence the difference in the concepts of fighters. The secret of the official report is for a normal analyst, for newspapermen there is a reason to embed an article.

[polikutin.e]

Sohu is who or what, since he saw the post that these are Chinese, and also that Koreans, and now again Chinese. Is it time to decide these super connoisseurs?

[Inspector]

It has long been obvious. Shunting against a trucker - karate against a Makarov pistol. And do not care that the gun does not know how to fight - the karate’s chances are zero. Is there someone who doesn't understand this? Even in the rank they write already !!!

[Prisoner]

Do the Chinese imagine themselves as theorists of air war? You cannot create a maneuverable apparatus, so say "excuse me, I can not", and do not spread along the tree.

[HMR333]

Maneuverability is always + especially from missiles!

[Fantazer911]

Well, yes, yes, the Chinese specialists are also envious, especially their opinion, well, the defense ministers and designers are sure to take their opinion into account when building new aircraft, a paradox, in a word!

[Nikolaevich I]

Well, here, as in a split personality, or ... or ... 2 opinions in one ,, bottle ,,! Opinion # 1. : Is it because there are so many adherents of close air combat that long-term air-to-air missiles of short and medium range have prevailed in the arsenal of the airborne forces since long ago! Due to the lack of fifth-generation fighters in the arsenal of the aerospace forces, there, “dominates,” a misunderstanding of how to effectively use

[Whale]

It is very important to take into account the opinion of the people who never participated in significant air battles.

[Charik]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=xX6nDShCqOs&feature=emb_logo- а российские летчики такой дозаправкой занимаются или лучше сразу от Ильюши?А в видео еще похожий на Е2 дрлошник палубный-он то как интегрирован с истребителями российского производства?

[AndreyM]

The F-35 is not intended for air combat at all - stealth is needed in order to avoid this battle, to sneak unnoticed to the target. And if the air battle has already begun, then stealth will not help much, it will hurt more. Yes, and "the first to see - the first to fire" does not mean "the first to hit" - the enemy's powerful electronic warfare and super-maneuverability allows him to dodge the missile, and the F-35 is already at the time of preparation for the shot (it switched to the active mode of the radar, the covers opened missile bay) ceases to be stealth

[Aviationism]

Russia is the only country that has effectively mastered 3D thrust vector control. I remember the Eurofighter pilots literally a poster with delight when it was planned to equip it with UVT. Did not work out! The Chinese were soaked with Chengdu J-10B. Did not work out. Both now claim that UVT is useless. Sour grapes?
And if it is useless, why are the latest Japanese and South Korean projected sixth generation fighter jets incorporating UVT?

The Americans designed the F-22 as the best fighter for air supremacy until 2050. To do this, it was equipped with UVT. After the emergence of Russian superiority in the UVP, especially promising Su-57 with product 30, the F-22 will soon lose dominance. Therefore, now they feed on convincing everyone that “close air combat” (BVB) is out of date.
This lie once worked. In Vietnam, Phantoms and MiG-21s did not successfully feed themselves fighting only with long-range missiles. A complete failure!
Modern missiles are 400% more effective than then. Ho missile defense is also better by 400%; so the statistics will not move very much.

If two 100% stealth fighter are in the space itself, they will not see each other until their long-range missiles can be used. Then a maneuvering battle is inevitable, or both run to their own.

UVT is here for a long time, unless the Americans succeed.

[Aviationism]

(Correct original)

Russia is the only country that has effectively mastered 3D thrust vector control (UHT). I remember the Eurofighter pilots literally cried with delight when it was planned to equip it with UVT. Did not work out! The Chinese were fed with Chengdu J-10B. Did not work out. Both now claim that UVT is useless. Sour grapes?
And if it is useless, why are the latest Japanese and South Korean projected sixth generation fighter jets incorporating UVT?

The Americans designed the F-22 as the best fighter for air supremacy until 2050. To do this, it was equipped with UVT. After the emergence of Russian superiority in the UVP, especially promising Su-57 with product 30, the F-22 will soon lose dominance. Therefore, now they feed on convincing everyone that “close air combat” (BVB) is out of date.
This lie once worked. In Vietnam, Phantoms and MiG-21s did not successfully feed themselves fighting only with long-range missiles. A complete failure! I had to resort to guns.
Modern missiles are 400% more effective than then. Ho missile defense is also better by 400%; so the statistics will not move very much.

If two 100% stealth fighter are in the space itself, they will not see each other until their long-range missiles can be used. Then a maneuvering battle is inevitable, or both run to their own.

UVT is here for a long time, unless the Americans succeed in fooling the Russians again.

[Vivan]

That's just funny! What kind of combat experiments does the Chinese Air Force have in order to wedge themselves into the conversation of adults and talk about air battles?

[Bibabo]

It seems to me important that the possibilities of development in the direction of super-maneuverability are limited (at least - by the g-forces permissible for the pilot) and are close to exhaustion, but not by "early detection". Even if now the chances of collisions are equal, tomorrow there will be lagging behind, and then "they" will take the next step, and "we" will be at the level of "their yesterday." It seems that further development requires those things in which Russia is traditionally weak (and weak due to tradition).

By the way, I think this is "stealth": the development of detection capabilities is less limited than of concealment.

And the future is drones, and the one who can stick more will win. And that means the USA, because the economy is stronger.

[krokus]

and the ability to massively knock them down by means of a strong electromagnetic pulse will nullify all conceivable possibilities for their over-mass release. Plus, they can interrupt control and + can also intercept ... and bring these gifts back. With drones, not everything is so rosy, their era is just beginning and the era of serious confrontation with small aircraft is also in its infancy. You can do it ... the question is not to harm yourself.

[Aviationism]

The more efficient the UVT, the lower the normal overload due to the quick repayment of speed. A new problem is the combined 3D overload. Gymnastics will help.

Super-maneuverable missiles are capable of overloading up to 35+, but they are difficult to slow down and accelerate again.

[Yuriy Filatov]

in general, the rocket cannot slow down. Moreover, almost all DVB missiles have fuel for only half the flight, after which they fly by inertia and each maneuver of their rudders sharply reduces their speed and range. And at the end, the plane can fly away from them turning on the afterburner. Recently there was a video how the Syrian MiG-21 escaped from two Turkish missiles, using a dodge maneuver and they could not catch it

[Vladimir Emelyanov]

Long-range launch of a rocket is an opportunity to destroy it with protective equipment. To develop the detection of unobtrusive targets, that is, to reduce their invisibility to 0 + their long-range missiles (they are already the most long-range ones) and to develop beyond maneuverability further, this is an undeniable trump card when transferred to the 6th generation where aircraft will not need a person

[1536]

In Chinese it turns out that it is best to fight on airships. You fly yourself and shoot rockets at the highly maneuverable Russian fighters that wind around a solid airship "sausage", but cannot shoot it down. What is not the concept of a "new air battle" in the style of the movie "Star Wars"?

[loaln]

Yes, only battle will judge speculation.

[lubesky]

Please tell me, I just don’t know where and when the Chinese managed to become experts in military tactics and strategy, especially in the future and long term? The air combat maneuverability strategy is dictated by the vast territory of our country and the potential scope of possible theaters of operations, where a specific link in a specific task can solve an important combat mission under suitable circumstances. However, let them think as they want. The Chinese have become victims of the advertising of drones and their future, and we are too mature in military terms, where even in the robotic war of the future there will be a place for a corn crop and a three-ruler.

[av58]

The Chinese forgot that in order to detect the Su-57, the American F-22/35 needs to do a little thing: turn on the radar. One must assume that the Chinese think that Russian pilots will not react to radiation exposure
Moreover, the flashed message about a fundamentally new Russian method of detecting “invisibility” completely nullifies stealth technologies, along with the multi-billion dollar US spending on these technologies. What remains after this? That's right - super maneuverability. So who is more far-sighted?

[krokus]

There are a lot of comments about some kind of one-sided pretentious strategy... well, the Chinese sohu has its own cockroaches about strategies. And how do all the local people see a modern clash between two planes?...like this...in the whole world...there are two planes left and absolutely no military equipment! And in this ideal utopian world there is...a duel?!!! like that?! or the detection stations were bombed a long time ago... the air defense was completely destroyed, etc., etc.?! or as in that joke... what if two planes attack you... what if 5... what if 10?! Am I going to fight alone?!
Does anyone know what the cost of 1 French Leclerc tank was, 6 euros? As far as I remember, half of the cost is just the tank itself... the rest of the cost is in the system of interaction with other branches of the military. The German doctrine was built in the same way - where tanks could not do anything, artillery and aviation were used from afar. And now you have completely decided to forget about ground-based radars and their support for your aircraft?! However!!! Hello indeed! Americans, under the auspices of the “philanthropic” mask, are going to entangle the whole world with satellites for “free” Internet, probably because the F22 has an awesome locator and will notice everyone earlier? and the military there at the project are also working hard with nothing to do... Well, why should they do that... the locator on the plane is Akhovsky... no problems!

[Shurik_2]

And their planes were better and their tanks were better and optics and radios, but we still won. Remember once and for all, only a nuclear war can end quickly. All other wars last a long time. There are not so many fifth-generation aircraft, and aircraft of the 4th and 4+ generations will remain the workhorses. And on the fifth, it’s enough to smash the aircraft support and preparation hangar and that’s it, they fly off.

[Aviationism]

It seems Sohu is mocking us.
China has just begun production of the J-20B with UHT.

https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/introducing-the-j-20b-china-reportedly-puts-advanced-new-stealth-fighter-variant-into-mass-production

[Alexander Dubinin]

The Chinese in their repertoire say: “We’re not smart enough to do it ourselves, let’s just mess it up!”

[Dzafdet]

Only military action will show who is right. while the Americans do not risk engaging in military clashes with ours in Syria.

[Kapkan]

Quote: 3danimal

I wonder what territories you mean melee fights over.

I don't comment on that.
However, the most advanced, deeply echeloned air defense in the world is in Russia. Muscovites are especially lucky in general.
Regarding the operating range (non-detection) of our air defenses, there are many “pleasant” surprises for partners.

[Antonov Sergey]

All this is bullshit, our approach is more correct. The Americans are preparing for a local conflict, quickly achieving superiority on land and in the air, and accepting surrender. This is a strategy to defeat the Papuans with bow and spear. The war with Russia will be one of destruction. Even if we exclude nuclear weapons, in conditions when satellite constellations, bases and logistics centers will be mutually destroyed in the first days of the Internet, the complexity of production and the cost of reproducing weapons of destruction will be at the forefront, and then the simplicity and cheapness of Russian weapons, as well as their survivability in battle will play its role.

[Yuriy Filatov]

I wonder what if the idiots from the automotive industry actually look at the ground and develop KAZ suspended containers for airplanes. Which would include optics, a radar detector and 6-10 short-range missiles, designed to intercept enemy missiles at a distance of 1-2 kilometers from the aircraft. I hung such a container instead of one of the missiles on the MiG-21 and some F-22 will fly around it 30 kilometers away

[Berg berg]

They said so because they lost in all virtual battles! The explanation was that it is not fair to fight with airplanes like this; he should not dodge a salvo of missiles and, when maneuvering, get behind the enemy. As their experts stated, the plane that is being shot at must withstand the blow without subterfuge, but only if it is an enemy plane and not one’s own!

[Ilya_Nsk]

Yes, these bright-eyed clairvoyants are sick of them. They already crap their pants, thinking that in World War II planes would fight at an altitude of 5..8 km, they did the MiG-3, and 90% of the battles were up to 3 km, or in Vietnam - to hell with the guns of the planes, they have missiles! But no, and even the vaunted F-22 and F-35 have Gatling systems with very decent ammunition, which is three times more than that of the Su-57. And where there is a cannon, super-maneuverability is only a plus. The ambush will also be that the radars can be suppressed on both sides and only eyes and hands will remain.

[Ersh]

Judging by the comments, the authors are all fighter pilots and know everything thoroughly :)

[BOPOH50]

What do you mean he won’t notice that he has been discovered? Stealth radars have not yet been invented.