Military Review

Indian tanks in Ladakh: the sad experience of using USSR tanks in the mountains of Afghanistan is not taken into account

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Indian tanks in Ladakh: the sad experience of using USSR tanks in the mountains of Afghanistan is not taken into account

For several days after a cross-border clash with the Chinese, Indian forces were pulling heavy armored vehicles into the Ladakh region. Among other things, this and Tanks.


Tanks were transferred, despite the sad experience of using, for example, Soviet armored vehicles in the highlands of Afghanistan. What is it - a misunderstanding of the basics of military tactics or is it still "rattling" weapons in order to sober up China?

According to all classical textbooks on military training, the use of armored troops is possible only between the mountains and in the foothills with wide roads. Gorges and narrow serpentines - certain death for heavy equipment. Especially if the enemy is holding such areas under fire. The Soviet troops in Afghanistan fully felt this on themselves when Mujahideen using portable weapons destroyed entire columns of armored vehicles. And Ladakh is precisely a difficult mountain range.

Do not neglect the complexity of operating armored vehicles in the mountains. This is the rapid wear of the material part due to rocky terrain, engine overheating and a drop in speed when climbing to heights, one and a half times greater fuel consumption compared to flat terrain. All this inevitably leads to the need to accompany the tanks with a large number of engineering divisions.

Moreover, Ladakh, located at the junction of lithospheric plates, is seismically active. The desire to fight with China in the region with elevations from 2750 m above sea level in Kargil to 7672 m in Sasir Kangri is crazy. So why should India get into such a military adventure? The answer is obvious: it’s just a “rattling” of weapons in order to prevent war.

The political circles of India amid a border conflict in the Ladakh zone are seriously discussing the need to strengthen their military potential not only with the help of BrahMos supersonic missiles and aviation, but also through the purchase of the latest tanks. Previously, there was no doubt the superiority of India with its T-90MS over Chinese tanks. But after the Chinese introduced their new Type99A and sold a number of upgraded cars to Pakistan, India lost its edge. In light of this, as well as the lack of effectiveness of the Arjun tank program, India has shown considerable interest in the new generation T-14 Armata Russian tank. The adoption of this machine will give India an undeniable advantage over China - at least, as they say in India itself. It is this advantage, and not combat use, that plays a crucial role in the modern world. In a specific case, a role in keeping China from territorial claims in the Ladakh region.
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  1. Lebed
    Lebed 8 July 2020 06: 52
    11
    Where will experience come from if they have never really fought?
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 8 July 2020 07: 42
      30
      In the mountains they fought very actively. With Pakistan. So they have experience, and experience that is being studied in other countries. For example, the experience of using artillery in a war in the mountains.

      And the author exaggerates everything too much about tanks. The use of tanks in the mountains is very, there are many features. But it is definitely not worth calling an attempt to use them "misunderstanding the basics".
      1. venik
        venik 8 July 2020 13: 09
        +1
        Quote: Spade
        In the mountains they fought very actively. With Pakistan.

        =======
        Well, in the mountains (in the highlands) they fought most actively with China (in 1962). They fought with Pakistan not so much in the mountains as in the foothills and on the plain (in all three conflicts).
        Although this is not of fundamental importance. Both sides (both China and India) have no experience. alpine the war have!
        ------
        Quote: Spade
        The use of tanks in the mountains is very, there are many features. But it is definitely not worth calling an attempt to use them "misunderstanding the basics".

        =======
        good drinks

      2. TermNachTer
        TermNachTer 8 July 2020 19: 16
        +1
        What kind of fights were there? Company to company, maximum battalion per battalion. Panjshir operation they did not even dream
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 9 July 2020 09: 39
          0
          Quote: TermNachTER
          What kind of fights were there? Company to company, maximum battalion per battalion.

          Was there just a lot of mouth and battalions? laughing
          For example, the Kargil war is from 30 thousand people from India

          In general, a war in the mountains is often not even battalion companies, but platoons and squads
          1. TermNachTer
            TermNachTer 9 July 2020 19: 02
            0
            I had in mind the forces involved, and not every specific case.
    2. NF68
      NF68 8 July 2020 16: 18
      0
      Quote: Lebed
      Where will experience come from if they have never really fought?


      They compensate for this by dancing.
    3. SARANCHA1976
      SARANCHA1976 9 July 2020 07: 28
      0
      India did not fight? Seriously?
  2. Siberian 66
    Siberian 66 8 July 2020 07: 00
    27
    The difficulties of using tanks in the mountains are very significant. Both technical and tactical. Even shooting uphill is difficult due to the low elevation angle of the barrel. But I never heard from the Afghans that the tanks were redundant there. On the contrary, with proper use, especially as part of strong points with appropriate reconnaissance and surveillance, they were very effective.
    1. Alekseev
      Alekseev 8 July 2020 07: 22
      33
      Quote: Sibiryak 66
      I have never heard from the Afghans that tanks were redundant there.

      That's right!
      And the experience of the combat use of tanks in Afghanistan is not sad, but quite normal. They were used there not "in columns on serpentines", but as means of reinforcement and at checkpoints (strongholds), modifications with enhanced armor protection were developed, no one was going to use TD in the mountains.
      About "whole columns" of armored vehicles, destroyed from RPGs, etc. - an invention of the author for the "catchphrase".
    2. venik
      venik 8 July 2020 13: 18
      +5
      Quote: Sibiryak 66
      On the contrary, with proper use, especially as part of strong points with appropriate reconnaissance and surveillance, they were very effective.

      =========
      good Put a tank on a high-rise tower, build something like a caponier (or a normal caponier) - here’s an almost perfect, perfectly protected firing point, which can only be suppressed from the air or with a heavy, adjustable / guided projectile (conventional ATGM system - it’s very difficult, especially if such point on a hill). drinks
      PS The authors have done something or just "not in the subject"!
      1. _Ugene_
        _Ugene_ 8 July 2020 17: 05
        -3
        it used to be, but now a kamikaze drone flies into the roof and there is no tank, even though it was being dug and enclosed, the Azerbaijanis demonstrated this when they burnt all buried Armenian tanks in Karabakh
        1. nedgen
          nedgen 8 July 2020 20: 51
          0
          Quote: _Ugene_
          it used to be, but now a kamikaze drone flies into the roof and there is no tank, even though it was being dug and enclosed, the Azerbaijanis demonstrated this when they burnt all buried Armenian tanks in Karabakh

          Well, as far as I know, drones were not used and Israeli long-range anti-tank anti-tank missiles for shooting out of direct view and if the Armenians had Tor-s, nothing would happen to their tanks. But if the drones were used, it would be even easier to cope with it. they have lower speeds and more anti-tank missiles. Even an armor would have been enough.
        2. venik
          venik 9 July 2020 08: 09
          0
          Quote: _Ugene_
          it used to be so, but now a kamikaze drone flies into the roof and there is no tank, at least how to dig it and enclose it

          ========
          Have you read the comment ATTENTIVELY?
          Quote: venik
          protected firing point, which can be suppressed air only or. A heavy, adjustable / guided projectile.
          .....
          Or do you think a kamikaze drone attack is NOT an "air attack" ??? request
          1. _Ugene_
            _Ugene_ 9 July 2020 16: 46
            -2
            I meant that your statement about tanks
            here's an almost perfect, perfectly protected firing point
            too outdated, now even Azerbaijan has every opportunity to smash such "well-protected firing points" to smithereens, not to mention more serious armies
  3. Hwostatij
    Hwostatij 8 July 2020 07: 17
    -1
    I heard that in the mountains, cumulative shells are more effective than high-explosive shells - when it hits a stone with gravel, it mows everything around.
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 8 July 2020 07: 37
      10
      Quote: Hwostatij
      I heard that in the mountains, cumulative shells are more effective than high-explosive shells - when it hits a stone with gravel, it mows everything around.

      High-explosive give no less than secondary fragments
    2. mojohed2012
      mojohed2012 8 July 2020 07: 44
      16
      The Afghan and Chechen experience of the Argun operation showed that everything in the mountains is effective in the mountains, if only it was in the infantry order. It is difficult to deliver any vehicles to the mountains, infantry usually carries everything, therefore the banal BMP-1 will decide there if it is used correctly from ambushes and the enemy does not immediately calculate and destroy it.
  4. Ravil_Asnafovich
    Ravil_Asnafovich 8 July 2020 07: 29
    +1
    At parades, they decorate their Arjuns as at a wedding.
  5. Thrifty
    Thrifty 8 July 2020 07: 33
    21
    I have not read more nonsense yet! fool And how many T90MS tanks were burned by Chinese T99A tanks? What is the author’s fantasy about the loss of advantage, since these tanks have never been seen anywhere in person? If only to create an intrigue, wrote without thinking? ?? China as if not puffed up, but all of its tanks are only COPIES! There may be a different gun, but even artillery for tanks based on Soviet ideas and principles! China has only the Chinese, and everything else from around the world, counterfeit! !!!
    1. VyacheSeymour
      VyacheSeymour 8 July 2020 12: 51
      -2
      I have not read more nonsense yet! And how many T90MS tanks were burned by Chinese T99A tanks? What is the author’s fantasy about the loss of advantage, since these tanks have never been seen anywhere in person? If only to create an intrigue, wrote without thinking? ?? China as if not puffed up, but all of its tanks are only COPIES!

      The author writes:

      Previously, there was no doubt the superiority of India with its T-90MS over Chinese tanks. But after the Chinese introduced their new Type99A and sold a number of upgraded cars to Pakistan, India lost its edge.

      The main armored forces of China were Type 59,69,79 ... and yes with 1000+ T90x India had an undeniable advantage over
      By China. But with the advent of 1000+ Chinese Type 99s in service, this advantage is completely unlearned, and adjusted for the industrial capabilities of the Chinese (which is completely absent from the Indians), riveting them like pies is a loss by the Indians
      advantages - this is still put it mildly! ...
      And what is the author wrong about? ...
      And even more so, the duel ala Kursk is here by no means.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  6. Mavrikiy
    Mavrikiy 8 July 2020 07: 37
    +2
    India has shown considerable interest in the new generation T-14 Armata Russian tank.
    It's good. The car is very expensive and a wealthy buyer is useful to us, but .... The use of a tank on a theater of operations in sky-high heights can lead to a negative in military cooperation with India. For she will not get the effect from their use that she expects. And the second, negative advertising of the tank in the arms market. request But you need to sell. recourse
  7. mojohed2012
    mojohed2012 8 July 2020 07: 41
    +7
    The Chinese T99A has not yet been used in any theater for its intended purpose. But why does the author of the article write only about the side of India? China is also strengthening the grouping of troops in Ladakh. Moreover, the tanks are not shy about delivering, and, just, they strengthen the strong points, and the Indians reduce the units, as if they will have to advance across the fields.
  8. Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 8 July 2020 07: 46
    +6
    Previously, there was no doubt the superiority of India with its T-90MS over Chinese tanks.

    Where did the T90MS come from?
    1. Thrifty
      Thrifty 8 July 2020 08: 30
      +1
      Zaurbek hi - the author bought at his own expense a couple of hundred T90MS tanks to Indians lol .
    2. Revolver
      Revolver 8 July 2020 08: 32
      -2
      Quote: Zaurbek
      over the Chinese tanks.

      It is correct to read "The Superiority of India over Chinese Dances". In turkeys, dancing is "our everything."
  9. Revolver
    Revolver 8 July 2020 08: 28
    -1
    Indeed, the indisputable advantage of India is in dancing.
  10. Larch
    Larch 8 July 2020 08: 34
    +8
    Previously, there was no doubt the superiority of India with its T-90MS over Chinese tanks. But after the Chinese introduced their new Type99A and sold a number of upgraded cars to Pakistan, India lost its edge.

    Author, do you really know about the presence of T90MS in India, what exactly is the advantage of Type99A in question ??! (Chaotic thoughts in the article)
    India has shown considerable interest in the new generation T-14 Armata Russian tank. The adoption of this machine will give India an undeniable advantage over China - at least, as they say in India itself. It is this advantage, and not combat use, that plays a crucial role in the modern world.

    A logical masterpiece! )))
    1. NDR-791
      NDR-791 8 July 2020 08: 48
      +4
      India has shown considerable interest in the new generation T-14 Armata Russian tank. The adoption of this machine will give India an undeniable advantage over China - at least, as they say in India itself. It is this advantage, and not combat use, that plays a crucial role in the modern world.
      A logical masterpiece! )))
      It seems to me that the whole article is written precisely because of this paragraph. Yesterday's throw-in about the possibility of exporting Almaty begins to grow into rumors (I will not say that information). In the article above, deliberate nonsense is only for volume.
  11. d4rkmesa
    d4rkmesa 8 July 2020 09: 09
    +7
    As I understand it, this is a reprint of the next "Chinese news"? "Ladakh" is a high-mountainous plateau. Well that is at least there are not continuous passes and gorges between 8-thousanders. Significant passes there right on the border, well, I think the Indians are unlikely to storm Tibet through the Himalayas. As for Afghanistan, something like one and a half hundred tanks were lost in 10 years, mainly T-55 and as a result of breakdowns for non-combat reasons (i.e., something about 10% was lost from enemy fire). Those. the tank broke down, it is expensive to evacuate - in the homeland tens of thousands are in storage and so on. The nuances of high-altitude maintenance of equipment were clarified back in the 50s, modern equipment must cope. Calling losses a "sad experience" is too strong. In Chechnya, for example, up to a hundred tanks were lost, but in completely different conditions, and it was a really sad experience that was taken into account.
  12. Andrey VOV
    Andrey VOV 8 July 2020 09: 24
    +6
    Author, what "whole columns" of armored vehicles were destroyed in Afghanistan? Maybe you confused them with nalivnya? Outside the same ... our army quickly understood how to use tanks in Afghanistan and what was left there after the withdrawal of most of the equipment was used effectively ..
  13. Maks1995
    Maks1995 8 July 2020 10: 42
    +2
    True in the comments they write.
    The Indians have not yet begun to shoot, and the author is already curing them "the sad experience of using USSR tanks in the mountains of Afghanistan has not been taken into account"

    What if it’s taken into account? Suddenly Indian generals are better than some versed in the localities and conditions?
  14. Nikolai Kotsofana
    Nikolai Kotsofana 8 July 2020 18: 05
    +1
    In nearly 10 years of fighting in Afghanistan, 147 tanks were lost. He was in Afghanistan in 1987-1988, in a tank battalion in the province of Badakhshan, this is the foothills of the Pamirs. The battalion stood on the Kunduz-Fayzabad road, at 7 outposts (as they were called.) So that I don’t know about the actions of tanks in the mountains of the OSCE (one grandmother said).
  15. chingachguc
    chingachguc 8 July 2020 20: 53
    +1
    You can use tanks in the mountains - just like in cities. This is a matter of tactics. Competent tactics make tanks justified in any conditions. Another thing is that in the mountains a massive use of tanks is impossible. As a fire support tool - yes
  16. IC
    IC 8 July 2020 21: 55
    +1
    The policy of India in the framework of import substitution of military equipment seems to have come to a standstill. There is a lot of noise, but there is really no result.
  17. sen
    sen 9 July 2020 05: 42
    +1
    Probably need to think about a specialized machine for action in the mountains. Relatively small, can be three-link, able to move at large angles.
  18. demchuk.ig
    demchuk.ig 9 July 2020 13: 36
    +1
    It will take five years to conclude a contract for the purchase of "Armat". And all this will be accompanied by lamentations about what a bad and expensive tank it is, they will run to the custodians, buy a batch of three and will come running to us again.
  19. k_ply
    k_ply 12 July 2020 07: 43
    0
    Mujahideen destroyed entire columns of armored vehicles? It was thought that these were supply columns consisting of vehicles and lightly armored escort vehicles (armored personnel carriers, infantry fighting vehicles, armored personnel carriers), I can’t argue about shelling and losses, but certainly not the destruction of entire convoys of motorized rifle units or tank units.
    In D.S. we are not talking about actions on foreign territory (China, and about the supply columns of the Indians here and does not go at all).
    Tanks are good in defense, for this they are pulled up to the borders - to take important heights, for example, often with burying in the ground along the tower. Imagine a large sniper rifle controlling the area within a ~ 2 km radius. Storm such a task. When escorting the convoys, the tanks were also effective (ISAF experience - "Leopards" of the Dutch and Canadian armies, and Afghan mujahideen ATGMs are not spoiled), the only thing, the child can hide behind insufficient vertical guidance angles (SA tanks in Afghanistan).
  20. Alex1949
    Alex1949 12 July 2020 17: 27
    0
    How Indians and Chinese are fighting is a question for historians. In my opinion, both of them fight very poorly, otherwise it would have been according to the classical scheme - he came, saw, won. Therefore, China still has not attacked Russia. China remembers how the USSR liberated China from Japan’s most powerful army. And he remembers all the fire contacts on the borders with the USSR and how it all ended for China. China at one time was not able to conquer South Korea, could not, in fact, resist the American troops, which were very limited in armaments due to the issue of transporting troops, ammunition and arms across the ocean.
    In short, the military spirit of the Chinese is not very strong. And taking in quantity is not always possible.
    My father, who fought in China, told me that all Chinese are robbers. And robbers do not know how to globally, strategically fight. Therefore, they can’t see Taiwan as their ears until the end of time. And Russia is for them a sweet pipe dream.
  21. av58
    av58 12 July 2020 22: 23
    0
    It's not about the T-90, it's about the rains in the mountains, and the Indians managed to flood all the electronics of the tank. Known thing: a computer in the hands of a savage is a piece of iron.
  22. Russian Central Asian
    Russian Central Asian 7 August 2020 01: 31
    0
    I don’t want to offend the author, but the article is bullshit. It looks very much like a reprint of some imported article. I don't see much sense in writing an analysis in detail, they have already written everything before me, why repeat themselves. The only request is to stop calling the Afghan soul (spirits, dushman) Mujahideen fighters for the faith. This term was introduced into circulation by the Americans in negotiations with the hump that was not mentioned at night, but our journalists, democrats, liberal traitors, picked it up. Now times seem to have changed (at least that's what they say on TV), so it might be time to end up licking the anus of a potential adversary.