Talk about fighters? Today at 20:00

Talk about fighters? Today at 20:00

We decided to make this picture permanent when it comes to the ethers in our "Dugout". So to whom this topic is interesting - be aware that either a topic for conversation or an announcement of some broadcast will be hidden under the picture.

We are now continuing test streams in which we are debugging equipment. If the first pancake / stream really came out lumpy in the quality of the picture, then the second was already quite decent.

Now we will test the inclusion of broadcast calls of listeners / viewers. And so that it does not look boring, we suggest talking about the fighters of World War II. Discussion-conversation, on the basis of which we plan to make an article-rating.


Typically, ratings such as "Best Fighter" or "Best Bomber" are compiled by the authors, and then among the readers, there is a fuss in discussions about where the author was wrong.

This time we want to propose to arrange everything a little differently.

A certain outline will be proposed for discussion, and we will provide an opportunity for those wishing to speak both in writing in chat and on the air. And based on the results of the discussion, we will make a joint rating and publish it for further discussion.

We will offer original conditions for discussion.

The broadcast will be held on Wednesday, July 8, at 20 o’clock in Moscow here:

https://youtu.be/bJFzNuA9__g

Skype Call Channel: fing_vrn

We are waiting for everyone to talk about combat aircraft of the Second World War.
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133 comments
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  1. Rusticolus 6 July 2020 14: 59 New
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    Wang. Crowds of snoops and potatoes are now running. laughing
  2. Marconi41 6 July 2020 15: 15 New
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    In my subjective opinion, the best Soviet aircraft of that war was La-5 and its followers. Yak-3, although it was considered the best, but took too little fuel on board, and therefore left less time for battle. Maybe due to weight and was more maneuverable.
    1. orionvitt 6 July 2020 21: 20 New
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      Quote: Marconi41
      the best Soviet aircraft of that war was La-5 and its followers

      Then say so, LA-7. With what, in fact, many agree .. German, this is the Focke-Wulf Fw 190. And from the American, probably the Mustang. But that's my personal opinion.
      1. Marconi41 6 July 2020 22: 59 New
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        Quote: orionvitt
        German, this is the Focke-Wulf Fw 190

        Also air-cooled, but for some reason our pilots considered fighting with them easier than against the Me-109.
      2. Alex777 7 July 2020 10: 11 New
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        And from the American, probably the Mustang.

        But what about the Bell P-39 Aerocobra?
        The most productive aces flew on the P-39, such as Alexander Pokryshkin, Grigory Rechkalov, Alexander Clubs, Nikolai Gulaev, brothers Dmitry and Boris Glinka.
        1. orionvitt 7 July 2020 11: 22 New
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          Quote: Alex777
          But what about the Bell P-39 Aerocobra?

          So-so fighter. The main difference is a powerful weapon. But constantly strove to break into a tailspin and designed for high-class pilots. Note that the P-39 was exported only. The Americans themselves, it was not in service.
          1. Alf
            Alf 7 July 2020 17: 50 New
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            Quote: orionvitt
            Note that the P-39 was exported only. The Americans themselves, it was not in service.

            The cobra was good up to 4 thousand, Americans considered such heights frivolous.
          2. Alexander Drobyshev 8 July 2020 13: 34 New
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            There were, they mainly fought with the Japanese in New Guinea
        2. Lt. Air Force stock 8 July 2020 17: 33 New
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          Quote: Alex777
          But what about the Bell P-39 Aerocobra?

          Also, because of the lateral landing it was difficult to leave the plane in the air.
      3. NF68 7 July 2020 16: 19 New
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        Focke-Wulf Fw 190


        The Focke-Wulf Fw 190s aren't all the same either. Among the mass-produced, the best flight performance was the Focke-Wulf Fw 190 D-9-
  3. Marconi41 6 July 2020 15: 21 New
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    Of the imported would choose English Supermarine Spitfire.
    1. AUL
      AUL 6 July 2020 16: 39 New
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      There were several modifications. Which one impressed you?
      1. Marconi41 6 July 2020 16: 46 New
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        La-5FN of course. Anyway, I consider the whole family with an air-cooled engine to be more tenacious.
        1. Vlad.by 8 July 2020 20: 06 New
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          The five still had enough flaws. One high temperature in the cockpit is worth it.
          Then La-7. And managed to fight, and most of the diseases Five cured.
      2. Marconi41 6 July 2020 16: 59 New
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        Quote: AUL
        There were several modifications. Which one impressed you?

        Or are you talking about Supermarine Spitfire? Then Mk5. Maybe I didn’t understand you.
      3. Alf
        Alf 6 July 2020 18: 40 New
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        Quote: AUL
        There were several modifications. Which one impressed you?

        Personally, Mk-14E or Mk-18.
        1. seregatara1969 6 July 2020 23: 53 New
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          So you can’t easily judge. There are many nuances. Different fighter planes have their strengths and weaknesses. If you know how to use them, then victory is guaranteed. Some aircraft in the air defense are strong, while others in the Caucasus, the studs were exposed to the Germans, although they were beaten in a level field. There were cases and attack aircraft drove fighters. It is necessary to disassemble and discuss
          1. Alf
            Alf 7 July 2020 17: 48 New
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            Quote: seregatara1969
            So you can’t easily judge.

            And no one judges. The question is formulated very clearly to whom which fighters LIKE. Everyone has their own idea of ​​the beautiful.
  4. As for me, even a year plays a big role. Well, you can not compare the Yak-1, which in 1941 was considered new and the Yak-3, which ended the battles over Berlin! And the “Messer” of 1939 cannot be compared with “Gustav!” But both this and that aircraft of one “company”.
    1. ltc35 6 July 2020 17: 13 New
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      Years of war advanced aircraft of all sides. Pah-pah, of course, but a year or two different after the 45th and jet war would end the war.
    2. dauria 6 July 2020 19: 54 New
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      And the Messer of 1939 cannot be compared with Gustav!


      And the situation of the country and its industry. The last messenger “K” had a wooden tail. laughing And the reactive He-162 was with a plywood wing, nose and tail. And how well they started - solid luminium with magnesium.
      Well, without jokes - the Germans asked fashion. Half a step ahead of everyone. And with Messer, and with a two-row star and the automation of the propeller group on the FW-190 and with jet aircraft. And even with tactics. The gut is thin - they ran into the Russians. There, everything praised by the Luftwaffe died by the middle of the 43rd. That "historians" did not compose there - almost 70% of losses on the Eastern Front. From plywood Yak and La. wink
      So my vote is for La-5, which in Gorky gathered aunts and kids, wrapping steel tubes with kipers tape, and plywood tails and wings were assembled and glued. The plane is a soldier.
      1. Elena Zakharova 6 July 2020 22: 52 New
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        You forgot about another important player in World War II in terms of fighters.
        About Japan.
        I’ll just remind you that until 1943, the Japanese Air Force drove the American type of aces in the tail and mane as schoolboys on all fronts where they had to face in aerial combat.
        1. Marconi41 6 July 2020 23: 09 New
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          Quote: Elena Zakharova
          You forgot about another important player in World War II in terms of fighters.
          About Japan.

          Their Mitsubishi A6M Zero was lightweight and maneuverable, but what got it all? Airplane for Kamikaze.
        2. Crimean partisan 1974 7 July 2020 11: 27 New
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          that until the 43rd year in the tail and in the mane ....... where did such nonsense read ?????? a raid on Pearl was the only epoch-making for Japanese aviation. and then truncated. kina did not happen. battle of about. Midway tightly buried naval aviation. and Japanese aviation in the southeast of Asia had only one amereskadrily nightmare ... so not a single tail and mane. ... there were random clashes in the air where the Japanese pilots really showed skill, but overall losing. and especially then when they missed the superforces and stratofortes raids on their cities .... to remind about the carpet bombing of major cities in Japan ....... who stirs from fighter aircraft ..... read at a leisure Japs Okumiya and everything will fall into place place what yes how
          1. Narak-zempo 8 July 2020 14: 08 New
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            Quote: Crimean partisan 1974
            when missed superfortes and stratofortes raids on their cities

            Stratofortres is the B-52, or what? laughing
            1. Crimean partisan 1974 8 July 2020 17: 27 New
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              it’s B-52 .... but what do you want to argue about what goes on in hokaido and guame ????
              1. Narak-zempo 8 July 2020 17: 28 New
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                Quote: Crimean partisan 1974
                it’s B-52 .... but what do you want to argue about what goes on in hokaido and guame ????

                And why did they raid Japanese cities? wassat
                1. Crimean partisan 1974 8 July 2020 17: 32 New
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                  I doubt that someone will interfere with them, ..... so they fly the same ... without fear and reproach for the purpose, God forbid that nedosamurai recovered ....... well, except perhaps comrade Y. know it is not yet possible
        3. Alf
          Alf 7 July 2020 17: 55 New
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          Quote: Elena Zakharova
          I’ll just remind you that until 1943, the Japanese Air Force drove American type aces in the tail and mane as schoolchildren on all fronts

          And as soon as the pre-war elite was over, so the sides changed. And then it immediately became clear that Zero, of course, is an excellent fighter, but he does not really dance against the Witch and the Pirate. It was not so much the plane as the quality and number of pilots that the Japanese did not fail against the American "conveyor".
    3. sg7s 8 July 2020 13: 05 New
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      You are absolutely right. And you can also take into account (and it is necessary) that between the “Emiles” Bf-109 E-3 (39th year) and Gustav (at least G-2 (42nd) there were also Friedrich F-2 and F -4, and you also need to consider that there were EIGHT modifications of the same Emily. The war between the engineers went for every kilogram, hp, km / h or g / s (power of a volley of airborne weapons). If you take into account their production, yes war conditions, technologies, personnel, raw materials and so on (and only then - tactics, theater of operations, combat comment, personnel), then the argument - "which fighter" is better - is an argument, which is better - a vacuum cleaner or a washing machine, which you like best ? "... so for every taste - ... to whom a watermelon, and to whom - a pig cartilage" (c)
  5. Lipchanin 6 July 2020 15: 36 New
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    Tempting ...
    But since I am not a connoisseur of aviation, not a complete ignoramus, but compared to forum users aviators, a kettle is a teapot. So I would very much like to participate in this event as a spectator
  6. iouris 6 July 2020 15: 55 New
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    On which front?
    Talk. Some will say that it is long, others that it is green. And the noise will be ...
    1. dauria 6 July 2020 16: 31 New
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      On which front?


      What year ? In what battle with what task? At what altitude and range? What is the wear of the airframe and motor? Who was holding the handle? laughing
  7. Jack O'Neill 6 July 2020 16: 14 New
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    If there is a stream with Tarkov, then I will be with you.)
    And so, I will give my vote for the P-51D Mustang. Very beautiful and graceful fighter! Although the P-40 is also handsome. LaGG-3 is pretty too. But the LA-5 even absolutely does not go outside. However, the taste and color of the fighters are different.
    In short - Mustang (D) Van Lava!
    1. forpost 6 July 2020 16: 30 New
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      IMHO, beauty in battle is not important
      1. ltc35 6 July 2020 17: 15 New
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        I don’t remember who said it, but a good plane should be beautiful. For me, this is how La-5 looks graceful.
        1. Cap.nemo58rus 6 July 2020 19: 24 New
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          "Only beautiful planes fly well!" A.N. Tupolev.
    2. Elena Zakharova 6 July 2020 22: 53 New
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      The Mustang cardan was crooked, often out of order.
      1. Alf
        Alf 7 July 2020 17: 55 New
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        Quote: Elena Zakharova
        The Mustang cardan was crooked, often out of order.

        What was the curve?
    3. dauria 7 July 2020 01: 07 New
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      And so, I will give my vote for the P-51D Mustang. Very beautiful and graceful fighter!

      Pregnant aquarium guppy fish with a huge belly swollen from caviar. This is even in the 45th. And until the 43rd, a generally oversized floppy iron with a huge wing and four machine guns. He was lucky that he was late for a real war with the Germans. But the Americans have done well - advertising will make candy out of manure. laughing
      1. Sahalinets 7 July 2020 04: 31 New
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        This is a specialized escort fighter! Yes, at a low altitude, he was outright losing even to our yaks (there were training fights). But at the height he was king, and even the Germans recognized that they should copy the Mustang.
        1. sg7s 8 July 2020 13: 25 New
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          Yes, if you podrazodnit .... Six machine guns - weak, thrust-weight ratio - below the lag, came at the end of the war, accompanied by "fortresses". Fokkers last frolic in full swing. In Korea, Mustangs immediately filled up something about 330 pieces. But the Americans consider him the winner of the Second World War, and with us many people think only how Hollywood will show ... (by the way, before the Rolls-Royce engine P-51C was generally prepared to be discontinued due to low performance characteristics).
          1. Alf
            Alf 8 July 2020 19: 14 New
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            Quote: sg7s
            Six machine guns are weak,

            Messers and Fokkers lacked "at the most I can not." But the interception of the Yu-88 Mustang was not laid.
            Quote: sg7s
            In Korea, Mustangs immediately filled up something about 330 pieces.

            Evidence in the studio. And also remind you of which aircraft Mustang fought in Korea.
            Quote: sg7s
            to Rolls-Royce engine P-51C

            Before the Rolls-Royce engine, the P-51C could not get ready for withdrawal from the series, because option C appeared only with this very Merlin. Up to C in the series was only option A with Allison. And about the decommissioning of the Mustang P-51A no one stuttered.
            Quote: sg7s
            thrust ratio - below the lagga,

            Mustang has 2,6 kg / hp, and LAGG has the same 2,6.
            1. sg7s 9 July 2020 13: 44 New
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              I will not argue, read our aces, the history of the war in the air of WWII, Korea, everything is written there. If it’s really interesting, and not “proofs” - shmufs (just to poke), I recommend the simulators - IL-2 and BzS (in the latter, by the way, a qualified TsAGI engineer is responsible for AD and flight dynamics ("blows through" models on the comp version of AD pipes in Zhukovsky), everything is serious there .... P.S. (about Korea, specified - 337 pieces).
              1. Alf
                Alf 9 July 2020 17: 33 New
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                Quote: sg7s
                I recommend simulators - IL-2 and BZS

                Another computer victim ...
                Quote: sg7s
                about Korea, specified - 337 pieces).

                For what period? US Air Force or South Korea? Who shot down? What plane did Mustang have to fight with?
                Quote: sg7s
                I won’t argue

                But do not argue, it is enough to cite the facts.
      2. Alf
        Alf 7 July 2020 17: 56 New
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        Quote: dauria
        And until the 43rd, a generally oversized floppy iron with a huge wing and four machine guns.

        Is this about the P-47?
        1. dauria 7 July 2020 19: 54 New
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          Is this about the P-47?

          No, about the Mustang of the first series. Engine power like a Messer, and even a carburetor. And the wing is already 22 sq. M instead of 15-17 as in normal "war veterans". And heavier by half a ton. Where is he going? Only the convoy bombers graze. .
          1. Alf
            Alf 7 July 2020 21: 15 New
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            Quote: dauria
            Is this about the P-47?

            No, about the Mustang of the first series. Engine power like a Messer, and even a carburetor. And the wing is already 22 sq. M instead of 15-17 as in normal "war veterans". And heavier by half a ton. Where is he going? Only the convoy bombers graze. .

            Well, yes, no arguing against the facts.
            Although, on the other hand, what could be done on North American if there was no other motor in the states at that time? And he was ordered not as an escort, but as an ordinary front-line fighter a la P-40.
            1. Alf
              Alf 8 July 2020 18: 53 New
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              Quote: Alf
              Although, on the other hand, what could be done on North American if there was no other motor in the states at that time? And he was ordered not as an escort, but as an ordinary front-line fighter a la P-40.

              Interestingly, can the minuser name another water-cooled engine in the USA at that time?
              And also to refute the fact that the Mare was commissioned by the British as a regular fighter, and not as an escort?
    4. Crimean partisan 1974 7 July 2020 11: 36 New
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      I will give for Mustang ...... yes the rules. ... these are the two that Kozhedub on his La-7 fought in five minutes !!!!!! happy for you
      1. Jack O'Neill 7 July 2020 12: 53 New
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        I will give for Mustang ...... yes the rules. ... these are the two that Kozhedub on his La-7 fought in five minutes !!!!!! happy for you

        Again a bike about Kozhedub.
        1. Crimean partisan 1974 7 July 2020 22: 34 New
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          bike again ... this bike has names and surnames, unlike western stories ... remember this
          1. Jack O'Neill 7 July 2020 23: 07 New
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            bike again ... this bike has names and surnames, unlike western stories ... remember this

            What's next? Does it change anything?
      2. Alf
        Alf 7 July 2020 17: 59 New
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        Quote: Crimean partisan 1974
        I will give for Mustang ...... yes the rules. ... these are the two that Kozhedub on his La-7 fought in five minutes !!!!!! happy for you

        Golubev in the 43rd on Ishak Fokker failed, but this does not mean that the I-16 exceeded the 190th.
        1. Crimean partisan 1974 7 July 2020 22: 39 New
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          in the 43rd Golubev drove on the Tomahawk, it was on it that he filled up the focus with a battering ram. Well, if more specific. then he failed on a Russified Tom, that is, a modification of Tom-C, that is, with a slider 105, a characteristic feature is a more voluminous radiator cooling system
          1. The comment was deleted.
            1. Crimean partisan 1974 7 July 2020 23: 01 New
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              hear a little. it’s necessary to read, moreover, carefully ..... the 190th at the Baltic Fleet appeared in the 43rd when the 4th Fighter Aviation Regiment was seated from Tomov-S to La 5, which in Ishaki FIG !!!!!! there are girls who sing literally "oh, how unlucky. there is no voice not hearing" ... maybe the hearing failed?
          2. Alf
            Alf 7 July 2020 22: 49 New
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            Quote: Crimean partisan 1974
            in the 43rd Golubev drove on Tomahawk,

            4 GIAP KBF never flew on the P-40, first on the I-16, then on the LA-5.

            1. Crimean partisan 1974 7 July 2020 23: 28 New
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              compare the facts and everything will fall into place, no more ..... and so on a note ..... put yourself a wonderful toy "IL-2 forgotten battles" option "as in life" and you will understand everything .... not think that I'm joking ... it’s just interesting to talk to people who are not indifferent to the war as such
              1. sg7s 8 July 2020 13: 28 New
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                Hello comrade, online? from which squad? It was a good toy ...
                1. Crimean partisan 1974 8 July 2020 13: 43 New
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                  Good day ... with us they are all different ... IL-2 began to drive back in the distant 98th. then bought bells and whistles. The Western Front (for some reason, it’s not completed yet on the German ruler. The Pacific Ocean. I didn’t like it. But the topic is cool. Somewhere in the zeros I started to drive the options “like in life” .. and I had comments on the IL-2 developers, namely 1 C, .... why it is necessary to control the rotor-motor group and to level the planes on the FV-190 line., As far as is known, the 190th was optimally automated and there were no trimers at all, well, and in general the toy is cool ... though I am tight now tied up with toys
              2. Alf
                Alf 8 July 2020 18: 58 New
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                Quote: Crimean partisan 1974
                .Put yourself a wonderful toy "IL-2 forgotten battles"

                Well, in this case, you can take Call of Duty as a model of war. Maybe enough toys to cite as evidence?
                Quote: Crimean partisan 1974
                don’t think that I’m joking ... it’s just interesting to talk to people who are not indifferent to the war as such

                Or maybe you just have to admit that he's wrong? There is nothing wrong with this.
                Give at least one proof that 4 GIAP fought on the P-40.
                1. Crimean partisan 1974 8 July 2020 19: 38 New
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                  or maybe it's worth ..... no it's not. in the battle for the road of life in the 42nd 13th Baltic Fleet fighter regiment due to the wear and tear of the regular I-16s and due to losses, they received a link from the Tomahawk fighters but modifications K. That is, the Soviet VK-105 engine was installed ... the tail number of Tom Golubev 23, and in March of the 43rd regiment was sent to switch to another type of fighter and became known (or rather assigned the name) 4-GvIAP. something like that. ... yes it’s worth reading memoirs, it’s like that. no no yes how .....
                  1. Alf
                    Alf 8 July 2020 20: 00 New
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                    Quote: Crimean partisan 1974
                    а

                    There is not a single mention that P-4s were part of 40 GIAPs.


                    Give your source of information.
                    Quote: Crimean partisan 1974
                    .board number of Tom Golubev 23,


                    Our documents do not have any special lettering P-40 with M-105.
                    1. Aag
                      Aag 8 July 2020 22: 42 New
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                      Probably, it’s good when the “toys” supplement reality, history already (although how can it be supplemented?) Arouse interest in it .. Bad, when they substitute, distort it ... Probably so.
                    2. Crimean partisan 1974 8 July 2020 22: 43 New
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                      In our documents .... well, since the documents do not have it, Vadim Borisovich Shavrov has it .... the letter designation P-40 K means that he was equipped with the Klimov M-105 motor, he is also VK-105, ..that was the simple reason is fuel, alisson did not keep detonations on a surrogate, and there simply wasn’t another. so it was decided
                      now about the fighter pilots .... they often and densely redirected to other regiments and units .... a vivid example is my fellow countryman Amet Khan Sultan, started at 4 IAP on I-153. then in the area of ​​Stalingrad in the special unit of Dodonov (this is the curtain. in fact, Denisov), where the La-5 and Yak-7K (future Yak-9) circled, and then at the 9th Guards and Aviation Administration and in the nine that just did not fly ... like this
                      and another interesting fact .... there was such a female fighter regiment of the 589th, so here ... this regiment shot down only 35 self-opponents, losing 63 of its aircraft. Yak-1 and Yak-3, ..but the thing is .... of the 35 shot down sp. accounted for two girls, Kati Budanova -10 shot down. perished, eternal memory. and Lilia Litvyak-11 shot down. died. eternal memory ... but now the moment is such that the girls earned the shot down in different regiments before their appointment. Katya in 73th Guards and IAP shot her shot down, and Lilya in 9th Guards and IAP, while being led, and as a rule, the presenters shared with the presenters. .... in short, the matter is very confusing. ... either the female regiment didn’t bring down anything at all. or pulling an owl on a globe ....... yes to the article an interesting question .... but what is shot down in a group?
                      1. Alf
                        Alf 8 July 2020 22: 49 New
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                        Quote: Crimean partisan 1974
                        .and what is shot down in a group?

                        If I understand correctly, Ivanov lit, but Hans left, and Petrov finished off.
                      2. Crimean partisan 1974 8 July 2020 23: 20 New
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                        intrigue however ........ Ivanov and Petrov could have been from other IAPs, or maybe from other air divisions or even from different air armies in general ... everything is clear with the Hans. the victory is ranked as the winner no matter where he serves, this is his personal account not belonging to the air division, the Anglo-Saxons had 1.25 victories and the 1.4-principle also has a personal score regardless of the division ....... and we’ll break the leg with " BATTLEED IN THE GROUP "... I didn’t give an example about Litvyak and Budanova, and with my fellow countryman I’ve got a mess ------ 14 in the group, ....... in short, let's understand if it's interesting
  • Pavel57 6 July 2020 17: 12 New
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    On the Eastern Front - R-39. The proportion of Heroes flying on it is quite noticeable.
    1. Elena Zakharova 6 July 2020 23: 11 New
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      There are more heroes on the Yaks.
    2. Rzzz 7 July 2020 07: 32 New
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      Quote: Pavel57
      The proportion of Heroes flying on it is quite noticeable.

      That’s what it says against the plane. The device was very complex, only high-class pilots could cope with it.
  • Sahalinets 6 July 2020 17: 14 New
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    And how can you choose just a fighter? Here it is necessary to look at specialization.
    The best decker is Hellket.
    The best night light is Black Widow.
    The best interceptor is Spitfire of later episodes.
    The best information security is FV-190.
    The best escort is Mustang.
    But as for the best front-line fighter, it's hard to say ...
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. Alf
      Alf 6 July 2020 18: 41 New
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      Quote: Sahalinets
      The best night light is Black Widow.

      He-219

      Quote: Sahalinets
      The best interceptor is Spitfire of later episodes.

      Mk-14
      1. Sahalinets 7 July 2020 00: 13 New
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        Americans with radars were radically better.
    3. Elena Zakharova 6 July 2020 23: 04 New
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      How do you feel about the Mitsubishi A6M?
      And to I-4 ??
      1. Jack O'Neill 7 July 2020 03: 42 New
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        Zero is good, but not very beautiful. Sat in Zero with a katana and that's it, the whole world is at your feet.
        After all, the most maneuverable monoplane ...


        PS
        If in Russian then - HellkEt.

        Hellkit. laughing
      2. Alf
        Alf 7 July 2020 17: 46 New
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        Quote: Elena Zakharova
        How do you feel about the Mitsubishi A6M?

        Excellent maneuverability, huge range, a complete lack of armor and no survivability.
        The disadvantages are the continuation of the merits.
    4. Elena Zakharova 6 July 2020 23: 06 New
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      Quote: Sahalinets
      Hellket.

      If in Russian then - HellkEt.
    5. sg7s 8 July 2020 13: 52 New
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      So here - "by specialty" - escort - IMHO - yaks (only starting from Yak-1M) (but here under Ily - low altitudes, only turning and maintaining silts at all costs (losing at least one is always a showdown) ... Conquest air superiority - either gustav or la-7 ... Attack - definitely - fokker., etc.
  • Eug
    Eug 6 July 2020 17: 36 New
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    I'd love to see the statistics "shot down .... pcs. / Was .... aircraft in the Air Force." I can not calculate.
  • Vladimir Mashkov 6 July 2020 17: 39 New
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    All talk about which aircraft (including the fighter) is “the best”, “better” or “worse” than the other is stupid and meaningless, if you do not take into account a huge number of factors: the features of each design, its use for certain tasks. It is clear that for escorting the "flying fortresses" during a raid on Germany, the air war on the Western and Eastern fronts, the battle over the Pacific Ocean, completely different fighters were needed. Even for different tasks on the same front, different fighters are needed! So, to reflect the raids at high altitude, high-altitude fighters are needed, and for small and medium altitudes - front-line fighters. For example, the Yak-3 and La-7 were most suitable for escorting attack aircraft and bombers, maneuvering combat on the Eastern Front of the USSR, and the FV-190 and Me-109 of the latest modifications were most suitable for Germany for shooting down Soviet aircraft. There was no better B-17 escort fighter than a Mustang, and Lightnings, Hellkets and Corsairs successfully fought with the Japanese. The Spitfires, Me-109, Yak-9 were universally used. They all differed from each other in weight, engine power, weapons, design, performance characteristics. Even the take-off and landing characteristics: the “Aerocobra” and “Kingcobra” had a rear engine and centering with a nose wheel, and the beautiful “Spitfires” and Me-109 had a narrow track of the chassis and high torque! Therefore, talking about the best fighter is meaningless. You can only identify the group of the best aircraft, each of which in some ways will lose to the others!
    1. Pereira 6 July 2020 19: 05 New
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      All these considerations are only for Russians.
      For Americans and British, the question is not at all. Mustang and Spitfire. The rest are not interesting.
      1. Alf
        Alf 6 July 2020 19: 55 New
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        Quote: Pereira
        For Americans and British, the question is not at all. Mustang and Spitfire. The rest are not interesting.

        Yes, they do not know about others ...
      2. Zeev zeev 7 July 2020 12: 40 New
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        Pretty bold statement. For example, I am not Russian, but for me the question still stands. Spitfire or Tempest? Mustang or Corsair? FW-190 or Me-262? La-7 or Yak-9? Zero or Raiden? The planes are really very different, both in purpose and in the technical specifications and it is impossible to compare them unequivocally. If you take a multi-purpose aircraft, for his service and managed to shoot down, and bomb, and scout, then definitely P-51D Mustang. The aircraft was in service with a bunch of countries, was engaged in almost any military work and served until the 1980s.
    2. pmkemcity 7 July 2020 05: 48 New
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      I think that La-9 and La-11 should be included necessarily, because these are the same La-7, but equated with the possibilities of US production. So honestly it will be.
      1. Alf
        Alf 7 July 2020 18: 01 New
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        Quote: pmkemcity
        but equated with US manufacturing capabilities.

        "This is how, your mother, I'm sorry to understand?"
        1. pmkemcity 8 July 2020 05: 21 New
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          Quote: Alf
          "This is how, your mother, I'm sorry to understand?"

          All-metal aircraft.
          “In terms of range and duration of flight in the best mode, the aircraft“ 130 ”has a significant advantage over the aircraft La-7, Yak-3 and Yak-9U.
          This advantage of the aircraft "130" in flight range can be used to escort nearby bombers to the full radius of their action, subject to a further increase in fuel supply.
          The power of the firing volley aircraft "130" has a significant superiority over the aircraft La-7, Yak-3 and Yak-9U. The aircraft was equipped with four synchronous guns NS-23 with ammunition of 300 rounds. It should be noted that the future La-9 with some of the best guns was rightly considered the most heavily armed piston fighter.
          In aerial combat, on horizontal and vertical maneuvers at altitudes of 2000-6000 m, the aircraft "130" and La-7 are equivalent. Within 20-25 minutes of the battle, they can go into the tail of each other at the range of aimed fire ...
          In an aerial battle with the Yak-3 aircraft on a horizontal maneuver at altitudes of 3000-5000 m, the latter has a slight advantage over the 130 aircraft. On the left and right turns, the Yak-3 plane enters the tail of the "130" aircraft at a distance of 200-300 m through 5-6 turns. On a vertical maneuver at altitudes of 3000-5000 m, the Yak-3 also has an advantage over the "130" ... "
          "130" had a significantly better view from the cockpit compared not only with the La-7, but also with the German FV-190 and the American Thunderbolt fighter. "
          1. Alf
            Alf 8 July 2020 18: 48 New
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            Quote: pmkemcity
            All-metal aircraft.

            I agree with your quote absolutely and completely, but where does the possibility of US production?
            1. pmkemcity 9 July 2020 04: 50 New
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              Quote: Alf
              I agree with your quote absolutely and completely, but where does the possibility of US production?

              The United States has absolutely nothing to do with it. I am talking about the capabilities of the USSR to produce an all-metal aircraft, and nothing more.
    3. Tamek 7 July 2020 08: 27 New
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      I think here it is necessary to approach this issue as a tender for the purchase. For example, what kind of fighter would Norway buy in the 40th in order to successfully resist any enemy. Imagine yourself the king of Norway, and you have the opportunity to buy any fighter 40th year of release, what will be your choice?
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      2. Alf
        Alf 7 July 2020 18: 11 New
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        Quote: Tamek
        For example, what kind of fighter would Norway buy in the 40th in order to successfully resist any enemy.

        None. To fight back, you need to have numerous air forces and a mass pilot training system. There was neither one nor the other in Norway-40.
        Give at least 40 Starfury to the Vikings
        , the result would be the same.
    4. Crimean partisan 1974 7 July 2020 11: 54 New
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      You can identify the group of the best aircraft ....... and you need to identify who and how many times was shot down in battle ... and an example ... Pokryshkin 3 times (1 on the MiG-3 and two times on the cobra), Kozhedub 0 once on the La series. (although there were emergency landings, his La was returning to service). Skororokhov on La-5FN was not only not shot down but his Swallow was never damaged in battle. and at the same time, the German night light Heinz Schnaufer on the finished Me-110 fighter was never shot down with 121 (or rather 122) victories officially recorded, unlike the one-year-old Hartmann who replaced 16 messers. ...something like that
      1. Rusticolus 8 July 2020 20: 12 New
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        Actually, Pokryshkin was shot down 3 times on the MiG-2. Once the plane was completely lost. He still planted the second one, but then he had to leave him. But this was still when Kozhedub sat in a flight school. But La was still not in sight.
        1. Crimean partisan 1974 8 July 2020 23: 05 New
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          generally Pokryshkina ..... no, shot down once. and the second time he got damaged on the MiG-3 from the attack on the Pe-2 which is very similar to the Me-110, other sources claim that Pokryshkin shot down the Su-2, which I doubt very much, Pokryshkin’s diaries weren’t made public. by this is as is
          1. Rusticolus 8 July 2020 23: 43 New
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            The first time he was shot down in the Yass area. There, trying to land a plane, he crashed it. The second time in the area of ​​Mogilev-Podolsky, the downfall can be considered relative. He landed the plane with minor damage, and even tried to take him out with a group of soldiers leaving the encirclement, but later he had to be thrown and burned. And the story of the Su-2 happened on the very first day. There is only disagreement over which of the BBAP it was. In general, it all happened somewhere within one month.
            1. Crimean partisan 1974 8 July 2020 23: 53 New
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              within one month ...... wax the air battle is seconds. there is a difference in night air combat where up to 4 hours pass in the search for a target
              1. Rusticolus 8 July 2020 23: 56 New
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                I mean, about a month has passed from the history of the Su-2 to the second shot down. This is to how much difficult but quickly then had to learn to fight.
                1. Crimean partisan 1974 9 July 2020 00: 04 New
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                  the story of the Su-2 is very dark. I have facts that Sanya shot down the Pe-2, and the time of a second or months is not important, the main thing is that I repeat Pokryshkin’s diaries are not made public
                  1. Rusticolus 9 July 2020 00: 09 New
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                    I'm afraid the diaries will not help here either. The story is not so dark. Confused silhouettes, shot down. It turned out his own, and even lost the arrow. Pokryshkin was then not put to the wall for this. It is quite clear that few people liked to talk about this. Neither he himself nor those who were then nearby. Especially afterwards. And then the hero, and it seems that such a jamb that you can not wash. In general, I think this largely helped him to become a hero. He considered for two had to fight, for himself and for that guy.
                    1. Crimean partisan 1974 9 July 2020 00: 18 New
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                      Well, stories of friendly fire with sad consequences will always be camouflaged, ..... forget this story ... let it eat as it is ....... but let's get to the topic .... so what kind of WWII fighter was radiated .. ...
                      1. Rusticolus 9 July 2020 00: 31 New
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                        There are too many different factors in this question. In one parameter - one, in other tasks - another, in third place - the third. Some people didn’t get into that war at all, although they would be very good if everything was different. It’s easier to talk about who you like best. But here, as they say, "all the markers are different." Personally, I like the MiG-3 of the later series more. But because of the motors did not grow together. Develop it as Yaki or Lavochkin could be a very interesting machine. At least at the beginning of the war he was the only one who was not inferior to the Germans in speed. And of the heavy twin-engine, I would perhaps single out the Japanese.
                      2. Crimean partisan 1974 9 July 2020 00: 48 New
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                        Well, the story with the MiG is quite interesting, and it started with the I-185 which, according to the idea of ​​the fighter king Polikarpov, should have been the top of the fighters, but the tragic death of Chkalov and the not-finished M-88 engine (which they never brought to mind) put an end to 185 -m, and it was precisely Mikoyan and Gurevich who breathed into the life of this project. but there were no engines, Polikarpov was outcast, but there was a glider, then it was decided to stick in the AM crawler, very heavy, but thanks to the two-stage inflation, very powerful for heights of 6-8 km, but all this shnyaga did not justify itself .... so it developed if the M-88 engine then the MiG would then become the most powerful fighter, not only in the Red Army but also in the whole world ...... how hot it is. such is selavy
                      3. Rusticolus 9 July 2020 00: 51 New
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                        Yes that's right. MiG is the development of Polikarpov, but he still knew a lot about fighters. But it did not grow together.
                      4. Crimean partisan 1974 9 July 2020 01: 06 New
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                        Well, a lot of things have not grown together with the MiG-3, so Mikoyan and Gurevich were not soared with the reagents to perfection the third ones, we only know that there were test samples with synchronous ShVAK and also with ASh-3 motors. but with the ShVAK syncs, it was initially a failure, and the ASH-82 went for better models. La-82 and the famous Tu-5
                      5. Rusticolus 10 July 2020 10: 46 New
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                        50+ cars with ShVAK can hardly be called just a test sample. But most of them were assembled from ready-made car kits when the decision to end production was already taken.
                  2. Alf
                    Alf 9 July 2020 17: 50 New
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                    Quote: Crimean partisan 1974
                    and the unfinished M-88 motor (which was never brought to mind) put an end to the 185th

                    And they never planned to put M-88 on I-185 and did not plan.

                    Quote: Crimean partisan 1974
                    not finished M-88 motor (which they never brought to mind)


                    The unfinished engine will not be released throughout the war.
                  3. Crimean partisan 1974 10 July 2020 12: 16 New
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                    unfinished motor .. the whole war ..... duck is the fact of the matter is that the whole war was brought up but never brought. and along the way, either in the 43rd roofing felts in 44 in general on the M-88, the work was turned in favor of the M-82 or as later (ASh-820 which to this day plows in a deformed version on the old An-2 and Mi-4 pinwheels , ... but to our sheep .... Dry completion of the M-88 did not wait for its Su-6 attack aircraft. As a result, he never appeared at the front, tried the M-82 engine, but it was already occupied on La, Tu-2, and actually on the IL-4 you brought, also DB-3f, I don’t know how many DB-3F were with the m-88 engines. According to one source, up to about five thousand with the M-88, others have much less then by a third.
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  • oldzek 6 July 2020 19: 30 New
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    which one can only be better said by those who used all these planes. for me the main thing is the pilot’s head. if our eagles are poor ... and the eagles flew and won on the I-16, PO-2, etc.
  • Cristall 6 July 2020 22: 12 New
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    You can even bet on Zero ...
    1. Elena Zakharova 6 July 2020 23: 10 New
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      I also put on the A6M
      1. sg7s 8 July 2020 14: 03 New
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        Not bad, the king of the turn (Yaki, Ishaki, and Spita on the turn are resting, I won’t write numbers), BUT - tank protection (flashed from the tracers like lighters), the pilot’s protection, and a little bit more speed.
        1. dauria 8 July 2020 18: 08 New
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          , well, add a little speed.

          Then "turn" will not. laughing 22 sq. M. Wing of 2,5 tons and consumptive engine. To add the speed - you need to reduce the wing to 17, the engine if the star is big-chested up to 1500 horses. The mass will increase - it is necessary to strengthen the chassis. There look and rubber tanks, and armor, and guns Then it will become a decent Focke-Wulf or La-5.
          Destroyed their weak engine. There was no stock. Messer won with the same glider (in size) from Spain to the post-war Czech variants. From 700 horses in the 37th to 2000 "at the cross" in the 45th.
          1. sg7s 9 July 2020 13: 23 New
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            I love reasonable answers. You are right, but - there is a star there, force (like the 82nd), and - voila. I did not understand why the area should be reduced .... Play with quality, change the elongation. By the way, do not forget that a bend is not only a radius, but also a speed ... you measure a bend in seconds. And the Messer did everything (now not about a bend) on a not-so-successful glider only at the expense of the genius of German engineers (rearranged stub, sectional controlled flaps, SRD (and this is in the 42nd year (!)) versatility, modularity, inverted in the form of a step machine, a gun in the collapse and so on and so forth.)
            1. dauria 9 July 2020 13: 58 New
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              this is not only the radius, but also the speed ... after all, we measure the turn in seconds.

              Everything seems to be right with you. Just try to move on. Overload - the square of the speed per radius. The wing cannot work more than a certain Su (well, angle of attack). Means - will not give out the necessary lifting force = overload to the mass.
              Or reduce the weight, or increase the area.
              So we get it - you don’t need a super acrobat, you don’t need a super racer, you don’t need a superpower. And you need a fighter. As Kurt Tank said, “I’m not doing a prize horse, but a cavalry hardy horse.”
              In principle, the history of the creation and modifications of the FW 190 is the standard of a competent approach. The prototype is a weaker engine, a smaller wing. The motor did not go into the series - it puts another heavier, more powerful - and then it slightly increases the wing both in scope and reduces the narrowing. He flew around his cars himself and immediately understood - “the car lost its“ volatility ”(an interesting term for the designer?). Then he realized that the star’s prospects had ended - he put a water inline on Doura - and lengthened the fuselage with an insert in the tail and recalculated the area.
              His glider always matches the motor exactly. And the motor - fighting qualities in armor, guns, range.
              Actually, I like La-5 and therefore - they managed in such bestial conditions with the wildest deficit not only not to be left behind, but also to do something with this German.
              1. sg7s 9 July 2020 19: 54 New
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                So significant. on the fingers - a bend is a steady movement, created mainly by lifting force, part of which (multiplied by cosine gamma (angle of heel) holds in the horizon (without reduction), that is, balances the weight, the other part (by sine) actually “rounds” (my teachers will forgive me) the trajectory. Lift - Su x density x square of speed x square in half. You correctly pointed to the square, but forgot about the profile and shape itself (which is simplified and create this very coefficient. Su. Overload on bend = 1 / ss of the roll angle, i.e. a bend with 60 degrees gives exactly 2 units. Engine power gives us the ability to keep the plane in a bend with a large roll due to higher speed (if your power makes it possible to increase the roll angle - the only question is the endurance of the pilot (a turn with a roll of more than 60 is a figure of aerobatics.) The main thing remains - Su (his margin to a critical angle of attack) and WEIGHT, which must be balanced with part of the lifting force (which is why the fokker was never considered as a turner)
                About the "volatility". Pilots have such a term. For example - the Yak-42 is very "volatile", we were told - "you plant it, and it flies" ... About a small carcass - "where the ore was removed, there and sat ..." And in - In general, I agree with you ....
                1. dauria 9 July 2020 21: 46 New
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                  So significant. on fingers


                  laughing This turn was given to you .. Well, you yourself understand everything.
                  In order to minimize the radius (and time too), it is necessary to reduce the speed and increase the angle. At the same time, keep it in the horizon - that is, increase the lift (both of its projections). And this is density, square of speed, area and Su. Or reduce weight. That is, to fly lower, with a thick supporting wing, with a small load on the area. In addition, it is strong enough, plus a motor with the necessary margin, since Cx grows in proportion to the Su square (remember there 2pi Su square below the elongation and shape factor?).
                  So, no one will optimize the plane for the sake of time and radius of turn. Otherwise, get a biplane. And here is literally from the instruction of the 43rd year
                  On a turn, La-5 enters the tail of the Me-109 through three or four turns. Despite this, it is not recommended to transfer the battle to turns due to the general shortcomings of the battle on turns. If for some reason the enemy himself turns into a bend, then you can chase him in a bend, but with an indispensable cover from above, since often the enemy transfers the battle to bends in order to forge our fighters and strike them from above.
            2. dauria 9 July 2020 16: 04 New
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              gun in the collapse and so on and so forth.)


              Hmm, did not pull Daimler-Benz a real gun "in the collapse." The gun overheated. Nashda, precisely in the collapse in its purest form. The German had a gun behind the engine, and in the collapse passed an empty pipe to the gearbox shaft and bushings. But this is so, little things. But what I advise you, read -http: //wio.ru/tacftr/ww2p1.htm
              This is the 43rd year of instruction. And it turns out that a turn is not a recommended maneuver, and the main thing is tactics and the ability to use every free second to exceed. And all the limit figures for speed and rate of climb are not so important. And the balance of all-all parameters is important. And the level of pilot training is above all. It’s not just that Kozhedub and Pokryshkin sketched their battles and closely watched the German and his tricks.
              Best regards hi
  • Tamek 7 July 2020 08: 10 New
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    You need to choose by year, starting from the 39th. A total of seven should succeed.
  • Pavel57 7 July 2020 08: 35 New
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    Quote: Elena Zakharova
    There are more heroes on the Yaks.

    An excellent comparison criterion is the number of heroes per number of aircraft produced.
    1. Aag
      Aag 8 July 2020 23: 09 New
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      Try to conduct a survey, at least, among your friends: which car is better. Next, which one would you like to have? And which one you really can afford to purchase and operate? As they say, there are three big differences))). Add a time factor: " three rubles, but yesterday, or five, but today "
      So, apparently, with any product, product ... With weapons, it’s probably even more difficult: regarding the topic of the survey, -fighters of WWII times, -cost (production, operation), survivability (combat, and operational), of course, -LTX , and much, much more ... So, as applied to military equipment. Many of the above parameters are leveled out by combat effectiveness. Or, in the absence thereof, they are partially compensated.
      Sorry, it’s a lot like ... But, I hope, I brought my thought (!)))) ... hi
    2. Pavel57 9 July 2020 09: 44 New
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      Quote: Pavel57
      Quote: Elena Zakharova
      There are more heroes on the Yaks.

      An excellent comparison criterion is the number of heroes per number of aircraft produced.


      It is not clear why the minuses were thrown. Then another criterion is the number of aircraft shot down by a particular type of fighter. But heroes are easier to count. Maybe someone will write such a one with a similar analysis.
  • Pavel57 7 July 2020 08: 36 New
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    Quote: pmkemcity
    I think that La-9 and La-11 should be included necessarily, because these are the same La-7, but equated with the possibilities of US production. So honestly it will be.

    There is a historical example - the battle of La-9 against R-51 in the Far East after the war. The result is a draw - by zeros.
    1. pmkemcity 7 July 2020 11: 44 New
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      Quote: Pavel57
      Quote: pmkemcity
      I think that La-9 and La-11 should be included necessarily, because these are the same La-7, but equated with the possibilities of US production. So honestly it will be.

      There is a historical example - the battle of La-9 against R-51 in the Far East after the war. The result is a draw - by zeros.

      In China, the La-11 was often met in the air with the fighter P-38 Lightning and P-51 Mustang. One of them, April 2, 1950, sadly ended for the Americans. That morning, a couple of fighters, led by pilot Guzhov, intercepted and destroyed two Mustangs that invaded China's airspace.
  • Pavel57 7 July 2020 08: 41 New
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    Quote: rzzz
    Quote: Pavel57
    The proportion of Heroes flying on it is quite noticeable.

    That’s what it says against the plane. The device was very complex, only high-class pilots could cope with it.


    Everything is ambiguous here. Pre-trained pilots were put on domestic planes, and then natural selection survived, already experienced.
    1. Narak-zempo 8 July 2020 14: 19 New
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      The Cobra has a rear centering. Our pilots were accustomed after the I-16, but not the Americans.
  • NF68 7 July 2020 16: 22 New
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    In theory, it would be necessary to compare front-line fighters with front-line fighters. Multi-purpose with multi-purpose, escort fighters with escort fighters, high-altitude fighters with high-altitude fighters, etc. Otherwise, you get something like comparing warm to soft.
  • Baron pardus 8 July 2020 09: 05 New
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    FOR WHAT? If you need a fighter bomber, then this is either P47, or Corsair, or Tempest, or P38, or FW190. If you need an escort fighter, then this is a Mustang 51D, with Merlin (and not with Allison). If you need to shoot down heavy bombers, then you need FV190, P38, or Ki84, or Raiden. Tempest, too, can handle it, 4 guns are Hispano - no one will leave the offended. There were a lot of very good front-line fighters, offhand Spitfire, G55, PE2005, M205 (the Italians are very unfairly forgotten, but the Machchi, Fiat and Reggian fighters were excellent), Ki 61, Ki100, Ki84, N1K1J, our Yaki and La. The carrier-based fighters, these are Hellket, Corsair, and Sifaier, If by the sum of all indicators: Speed, maneuver, armament, range ... I would call the Supmarin Spitfayer MKXIV. EMNIP maneuverability was not inferior to the Yak-3 and LA. In speed and rate of climb superior. Carried up to 500 kg of bombs (this is certainly not Lightning and not Tempest). Armament 2 guns, 2 heavy machine guns. By and large, in terms of aggregate TTX, there simply are no equal to Spitfayer. They even made a carrier-based fighter out of it. Spitfire Mk14 is faster than La7, higher rate of climb, longer radius of action, and equal in maneuverability. HISPANO cannon ballistics are much better, the projectile is heavier, the B20 has a higher rate of fire. La7 has all the firing points in the nose. In armament La-7, IMHO is better, but given the superiority of Sptifaier in speed and climb with all other things being equal (horizontal maneuver), Spitfaier seems to be the best fighter. In addition, Spit had better automation.
  • Vladimir Mashkov 8 July 2020 11: 51 New
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    Quote: Crimean partisan 1974
    You can identify the group of the best aircraft ....... and you need to identify who and how many times was shot down in battle ... and an example ... Pokryshkin 3 times (1 on the MiG-3 and two times on the cobra), Kozhedub 0 once on the La series. (although there were emergency landings, his La was returning to service). Skororokhov on La-5FN was not only not shot down but his Swallow was never damaged in battle. and at the same time, the German night light Heinz Schnaufer on the finished Me-110 fighter was never shot down with 121 (or rather 122) victories officially recorded, unlike the one-year-old Hartmann who replaced 16 messers. ...something like that

    I do not agree. Excellent pilots fought well on mediocre aircraft, and mediocre ones fought poorly on good aircraft. You offer to evaluate pilots, and it is proposed to evaluate planes.
    1. Vladimir Mashkov 8 July 2020 12: 08 New
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      I repeat: it is impossible to unambiguously determine the "best fighter", you can only determine the groups of aircraft most suitable for certain tasks under certain conditions, and EVERYONE will be somewhat inferior to the others!
      1. Narak-zempo 8 July 2020 14: 41 New
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        "And talk?" laughing
  • Graz 8 July 2020 12: 03 New
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    let's talk about this, talk about how we live laughing
  • 123456789 8 July 2020 12: 24 New
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    Quote: dauria
    From plywood Yak and La.

    And you consider them as composite and then it will not be so sad hi
    So my vote is for La-5, which in Gorky gathered aunts and kids, wrapping steel tubes with kipers tape, and plywood tails and wings were assembled and glued. The plane is a soldier.

    Compare its characteristics with the Me-262.
    1. Narak-zempo 8 July 2020 14: 33 New
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      Quote: 123456789
      Do you consider them as composite

      Right. Plywood is a composite by definition.
      And also some of its species were pathetically called wood-layered plastics.
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  • Petrol cutter 8 July 2020 22: 03 New
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    And what's the point of talking about them? Honestly. All said a hundred times.
    They all flew at them, experienced the whole truth ... Participated in air battles. Pound water in a mortar? I do not understand the essence of gatherings ...
    Another conversation, suddenly the pilots from the front really returned.
    And, come on ... And you remember how I went under the Kovel four "Messers" in the tail! ... And knocked them all the parasites to hell! ... On his Lavochkin.