Talk about fighters? Today at 20:00

We decided to make this picture permanent when it comes to the ethers in our "Dugout". So to whom this topic is interesting - be aware that either a topic for conversation or an announcement of some broadcast will be hidden under the picture.

We are now continuing test streams in which we are debugging equipment. If the first pancake / stream really came out lumpy in the quality of the picture, then the second was already quite decent.

Now we will test the inclusion of broadcast calls of listeners / viewers. And so that it does not look boring, we suggest talking about the fighters of World War II. Discussion-conversation, on the basis of which we plan to make an article-rating.

Typically, ratings such as "Best Fighter" or "Best Bomber" are compiled by the authors, and then among the readers, there is a fuss in discussions about where the author was wrong.

This time we want to propose to arrange everything a little differently.

A certain outline will be proposed for discussion, and we will provide an opportunity for those wishing to speak both in writing in chat and on the air. And based on the results of the discussion, we will make a joint rating and publish it for further discussion.

We will offer original conditions for discussion.

The broadcast will be held on Wednesday, July 8, at 20 o’clock in Moscow here:

https://youtu.be/bJFzNuA9__g

Skype Call Channel: fing_vrn

We are waiting for everyone to talk about combat aircraft of the Second World War.

Comments

[Rusticolus]

Wang. Crowds of snoops and potatoes are now running.

[Marconi41]

In my subjective opinion, the best Soviet aircraft of that war was La-5 and its followers. Yak-3, although it was considered the best, but took too little fuel on board, and therefore left less time for battle. Maybe due to weight and was more maneuverable.

[orionvitt]

Quote: Marconi41

the best Soviet aircraft of that war was La-5 and its followers

Then say so, LA-7. With which, in fact, many agree .. German, this is Focke-Wulf Fw 190. And from the American, probably "Mustang". But that's my personal opinion.

[Marconi41]

Quote: orionvitt

German, this is the Focke-Wulf Fw 190

Also air-cooled, but for some reason our pilots considered fighting with them easier than against the Me-109.

[Alex777]

And from American, probably "Mustang".

But what about the Bell P-39 Aerocobra?

The most productive aces flew on the P-39, such as Alexander Pokryshkin, Grigory Rechkalov, Alexander Clubs, Nikolai Gulaev, brothers Dmitry and Boris Glinka.

[orionvitt]

Quote: Alex777

But what about the Bell P-39 Aerocobra?

So-so fighter. The main difference is a powerful weapon. But constantly strove to break into a tailspin and designed for high-class pilots. Note that the P-39 was exported only. The Americans themselves, it was not in service.

[Alf]

Quote: orionvitt

Note that the P-39 was exported only. The Americans themselves, it was not in service.

The cobra was good up to 4 thousand, Americans considered such heights frivolous.

[Alexander Drobyshev]

There were, they mainly fought with the Japanese in New Guinea

[Lt. Air Force stock]

Quote: Alex777

But what about the Bell P-39 Aerocobra?

Also, because of the lateral landing it was difficult to leave the plane in the air.

[NF68]

Focke-Wulf Fw190

The Focke-Wulf Fw 190s aren't all the same either. Among the mass-produced, the best flight performance was the Focke-Wulf Fw 190 D-9-

[Marconi41]

Of the imported would choose English Supermarine Spitfire.

[AUL]

There were several modifications. Which one impressed you?

[Marconi41]

La-5FN of course. Anyway, I consider the whole family with an air-cooled engine to be more tenacious.

[Vlad.by]

The five still had enough flaws. One high temperature in the cockpit is worth it.
Then La-7. And managed to fight, and most of the diseases Five cured.

[Marconi41]

Quote from AUL

There were several modifications. Which one impressed you?

Or are you talking about Supermarine Spitfire? Then Mk5. Maybe I didn’t understand you.

[Alf]

Quote from AUL

There were several modifications. Which one impressed you?

Personally, Mk-14E or Mk-18.

[seregatara1969]

So you can’t easily judge. There are many nuances. Different fighter planes have their strengths and weaknesses. If you know how to use them, then victory is guaranteed. Some aircraft in the air defense are strong, while others in the Caucasus, the studs were exposed to the Germans, although they were beaten in a level field. There were cases and attack aircraft drove fighters. It is necessary to disassemble and discuss

[Alf]

Quote: seregatara1969

So you can’t easily judge.

And no one judges. The question is formulated very clearly to whom which fighters LIKE. Everyone has their own idea of ​​the beautiful.

[The leader of the Redskins]

As for me, even the year plays a big role. Well, you cannot compare the Yak-1, which in 1941 was considered new and the Yak-3, which ended the battles over Berlin! And the "Messer" of 1939 cannot be compared with "Gustav"! But then, and then the planes of the same "company".

[ltc35]

Years of war advanced aircraft of all sides. Pah-pah, of course, but a year or two different after the 45th and jet war would end the war.

[dauria]

And "Messer" of 1939 cannot be compared with "Gustav"!

And the position of the country and its industry. The last Messer "K" had a wooden tail. And the reactive He-162 was with a plywood wing, nose and tail. And how well they started - solid luminium with magnesium.
Well, no kidding - the Germans set the fashion. A small half step ahead of everyone. And with a messer, and with a double-row star and automatic propeller group on the FW-190 and with jet aircraft. And even with tactics. The gut is thin - ran into the Russians. There all the vaunted Luftwaffe perished by the middle of the 43rd. No matter what the "historians" wrote there - almost 70% of the losses on the Eastern Front. From plywood Yak and La.
So my vote is for La-5, which in Gorky gathered aunts and kids, wrapping steel tubes with kipers tape, and plywood tails and wings were assembled and glued. The plane is a soldier.

[Elena Zakharova]

You forgot about another important player in World War II in terms of fighters.
About Japan.
I’ll just remind you that until 1943, the Japanese Air Force drove the American type of aces in the tail and mane as schoolboys on all fronts where they had to face in aerial combat.

[Marconi41]

Quote: Elena Zakharova

You forgot about another important player in World War II in terms of fighters.
About Japan.

Their Mitsubishi A6M Zero was lightweight and maneuverable, but what got it all? Airplane for Kamikaze.

[Crimean partisan 1974]

that until the 43rd year in the tail and in the mane ....... where did such nonsense read ?????? a raid on Pearl was the only epoch-making for Japanese aviation. and then truncated. kina did not happen. battle of about. Midway tightly buried naval aviation. and Japanese aviation in the southeast of Asia had only one amereskadrily nightmare ... so not a single tail and mane. ... there were random clashes in the air where the Japanese pilots really showed skill, but overall losing. and especially then when they missed the superforces and stratofortes raids on their cities .... to remind about the carpet bombing of major cities in Japan ....... who stirs from fighter aircraft ..... read at a leisure Japs Okumiya and everything will fall into place place what yes how

[Narak-zempo]

Quote: Crimean partisan 1974

when missed superfortes and stratofortes raids on their cities

Stratofortres is the B-52, or what?

[Crimean partisan 1974]

it’s B-52 .... but what do you want to argue about what goes on in hokaido and guame ????

[Narak-zempo]

Quote: Crimean partisan 1974

it’s B-52 .... but what do you want to argue about what goes on in hokaido and guame ????

And why did they raid Japanese cities?

[Crimean partisan 1974]

I doubt that someone will interfere with them, ..... so they fly the same ... without fear and reproach for the purpose, God forbid that nedosamurai recovered ....... well, except perhaps comrade Y. know it is not yet possible

[Alf]

Quote: Elena Zakharova

I’ll just remind you that until 1943, the Japanese Air Force drove American type aces in the tail and mane as schoolchildren on all fronts

And as soon as the pre-war elite ended, the sides changed. And then it immediately became clear that Zero, of course, is an excellent fighter, but he does not really dance against the Witch and the Pirate. It was not so much about the plane as about the quality and number of pilots; the Japanese did not play against the American "assembly line".

[sg7s]

You are absolutely right. And you can also take into account (and should) that between the "Emils" Bf-109 E-3 (39th year) and Gustav (at least G-2 (42nd) there were also Friedrichs F-2 and F -4, and it must also be borne in mind that there were EIGHT modifications of the same Emilia. The war between the engineers was for every kilogram, hp, km / h or g / sec (salvo power of onboard weapons). If we take into account their production, yes in conditions of war, technologies, personnel, raw materials, etc. (and then only - tactics, theater of operations, combat note., personnel), then the dispute - "which fighter" is better - this is a dispute, which is better - a vacuum cleaner or a washing machine, which you like best ? "... so for every taste - ... to whom the watermelon, and to whom - the pork cartilage" (c)

[Lipchanin]

Tempting ...
But since I am not a connoisseur of aviation, not a complete ignoramus, but compared to forum users aviators, a kettle is a teapot. So I would very much like to participate in this event as a spectator

[iouris]

On which front?
Talk. Some will say that it is long, others that it is green. And the noise will be ...

[dauria]

On which front?

What year ? In what battle with what task? At what altitude and range? What is the wear of the airframe and motor? Who was holding the handle?

[Jack O'Neill]

If there is a stream with Tarkov, then I will be with you.)
And so, I will give my vote for the P-51D Mustang. Very beautiful and graceful fighter! Although the P-40 is also handsome. LaGG-3 is pretty too. But the LA-5 even absolutely does not go outside. However, the taste and color of the fighters are different.
In short - Mustang (D) Van Lava!

[post]

IMHO, beauty in battle is not important

[ltc35]

I don’t remember who said it, but a good plane should be beautiful. For me, this is how La-5 looks graceful.

[Cap.nemo58rus]

"Only beautiful planes fly well!" A.N. Tupolev.

[Elena Zakharova]

The Mustang cardan was crooked, often out of order.

[Alf]

Quote: Elena Zakharova

The Mustang cardan was crooked, often out of order.

What was the curve?

[dauria]

And so, I will give my vote for the P-51D Mustang. Very beautiful and graceful fighter!

Pregnant aquarium guppy fish with a huge belly swollen from caviar. This is even in the 45th. And until the 43rd, a generally oversized floppy iron with a huge wing and four machine guns. He was lucky that he was late for a real war with the Germans. But the Americans have done well - advertising will make candy out of manure.

[Sahalinets]

This is a specialized escort fighter! Yes, at a low altitude, he was outright losing even to our yaks (there were training fights). But at the height he was king, and even the Germans recognized that they should copy the Mustang.

[sg7s]

Yes, if you speed up ... Six machine guns - weak, thrust-to-weight ratio - below lagg, came at the end of the war, accompanied by "fortresses". The Fokkers were the last to play with might and main. In Korea, about 330 mustangs were filled up at once. But the Americans consider him the winner of the Second World War, and in our country, many think only how Hollywood will show ... (by the way, before the Rolls-Royce engine, the P-51C was generally prepared to be removed from production due to low performance characteristics).

[Alf]

Quote: sg7s

Six machine guns are weak,

Messers and Fokkers had enough "I just can't". And the Mustang was not laid to intercept the Ju-88.

Quote: sg7s

In Korea, Mustangs immediately filled up something about 330 pieces.

Evidence in the studio. And also remind you of which aircraft Mustang fought in Korea.

Quote: sg7s

to Rolls-Royce engine P-51C

Before the Rolls-Royce engine, the P-51C could not get ready for withdrawal from the series, because option C appeared only with this very Merlin. Up to C in the series was only option A with Allison. And about the decommissioning of the Mustang P-51A no one stuttered.

Quote: sg7s

thrust ratio - below the lagga,

Mustang has 2,6 kg / hp, and LAGG has the same 2,6.

[sg7s]

I will not argue, read our aces, the history of the war in the air WWII, Korea, everything is written there. If it is really interesting, and not "proofs" - shmuffs (just to try it), I recommend simulators - IL-2 and BZS (in the latter, by the way, a qualified TsAGI engineer is responsible for blood pressure and flight dynamics ("blows" the models on the computer version of HELL pipes in Zhukovsky), everything is serious there .... PS (about Korea, specified - 337 pieces).

[Alf]

Quote: sg7s

I recommend simulators - IL-2 and BZS

Another computer victim ...

Quote: sg7s

about Korea, specified - 337 pieces).

For what period? US Air Force or South Korea? Who shot down? What plane did Mustang have to fight with?

Quote: sg7s

I won’t argue

But do not argue, it is enough to cite the facts.

[Alf]

Quote: dauria

And until the 43rd, a generally oversized floppy iron with a huge wing and four machine guns.

Is this about the P-47?

[dauria]

Is this about the P-47?

No, about the Mustang of the first series. The engine is as powerful as that of a messer, and even a carburetor. And the wing is already 22 sq. M instead of 15-17 as in the normal "front-line soldiers". And half a ton heavier. Where is it? Only in the convoy bomber jaws. ...

[Alf]

Quote: dauria

Is this about the P-47?

No, about the Mustang of the first series. The engine is as powerful as that of a messer, and even a carburetor. And the wing is already 22 sq. M instead of 15-17 as in the normal "front-line soldiers". And half a ton heavier. Where is it? Only in the convoy bomber jaws. ...

Well, yes, no arguing against the facts.
Although, on the other hand, what could be done on North American if there was no other motor in the states at that time? And he was ordered not as an escort, but as an ordinary front-line fighter a la P-40.

[Alf]

Quote: Alf

Although, on the other hand, what could be done on North American if there was no other motor in the states at that time? And he was ordered not as an escort, but as an ordinary front-line fighter a la P-40.

Interestingly, can the minuser name another water-cooled engine in the USA at that time?
And also to refute the fact that the Mare was commissioned by the British as a regular fighter, and not as an escort?

[Crimean partisan 1974]

I will give for Mustang ...... yes the rules. ... these are the two that Kozhedub on his La-7 fought in five minutes !!!!!! happy for you

[Jack O'Neill]

I will give for Mustang ...... yes the rules. ... these are the two that Kozhedub on his La-7 fought in five minutes !!!!!! happy for you

Again a bike about Kozhedub.

[Crimean partisan 1974]

bike again ... this bike has names and surnames, unlike western stories ... remember this

[Jack O'Neill]

bike again ... this bike has names and surnames, unlike western stories ... remember this

What's next? Does it change anything?

[Alf]

Quote: Crimean partisan 1974

I will give for Mustang ...... yes the rules. ... these are the two that Kozhedub on his La-7 fought in five minutes !!!!!! happy for you

Golubev in the 43rd on Ishak Fokker failed, but this does not mean that the I-16 exceeded the 190th.

[Crimean partisan 1974]

in the 43rd Golubev drove on the Tomahawk, it was on it that he filled up the focus with a battering ram. Well, if more specific. then he failed on a Russified Tom, that is, a modification of Tom-C, that is, with a slider 105, a characteristic feature is a more voluminous radiator cooling system

[Crimean partisan 1974]

to hear a little. it is necessary to read, and what has to do with it carefully ..... The 190th at the KBF appeared in the 43rd when the 4th Fighter Aviation Regiment transferred from the Tom-S to La 5, which in fig Ishaki !!!!!! there are girls who sing literally "oh what a bad luck. there is not a voice not hearing" ... maybe your hearing let down?

[Alf]

Quote: Crimean partisan 1974

in the 43rd Golubev drove on Tomahawk,

4 GIAP KBF never flew on the P-40, first on the I-16, then on the LA-5.

[Crimean partisan 1974]

compare the facts and everything will fall into place, no more ..... and on a note ..... put yourself a wonderful toy "IL-2 forgotten battles" option "like in life" and you will understand everything .... not think that I'm joking ... it's just interesting to communicate with people who are not indifferent to the war as such

[sg7s]

Hello comrade, online? from which squad? It was a good toy ...

[Crimean partisan 1974]

Good day ... they are all different here ... IL-2 began to drive back in the distant 98th. then bought bells and whistles. The Western Front (though for some reason it was not completed on the German line. The Pacific Ocean. I didn’t like it, but the topic is cool. Somewhere in the 2s I started to drive in the "like in life" options .. and I had comments about the IL-1 developers, namely 190 S, .... why is it necessary to control the propeller group on the FV-190 line and trim the planes., As far as we know, the XNUMXth was optimally automated and there were no trimers at all, well, in general, the toy is cool ... although I am now tightly tied up with toys

[Alf]

Quote: Crimean partisan 1974

.get yourself a wonderful toy "IL-2 Forgotten Battles"

Well, in this case, you can take Call of Duty as a model of war. Maybe enough toys to cite as evidence?

Quote: Crimean partisan 1974

don’t think that I’m joking ... it’s just interesting to talk to people who are not indifferent to the war as such

Or maybe you just have to admit that he's wrong? There is nothing wrong with this.
Give at least one proof that 4 GIAP fought on the P-40.

[Crimean partisan 1974]

or maybe it's worth ..... no it's not. in the battle for the road of life in the 42nd 13th Baltic Fleet fighter regiment due to the wear and tear of the regular I-16s and due to losses, they received a link from the Tomahawk fighters but modifications K. That is, the Soviet VK-105 engine was installed ... the tail number of Tom Golubev 23, and in March of the 43rd regiment was sent to switch to another type of fighter and became known (or rather assigned the name) 4-GvIAP. something like that. ... yes it’s worth reading memoirs, it’s like that. no no yes how .....

[Alf]

Quote: Crimean partisan 1974

а

There is not a single mention that P-4s were part of 40 GIAPs.

Give your source of information.

Quote: Crimean partisan 1974

.board number of Tom Golubev 23,

Our documents do not have any special lettering P-40 with M-105.

[Aag]

Probably, it is good when "toys" complement reality, already history (although how can it be supplemented?) Arouse interest in it .. It's bad, When they substitute, distort it ... Probably so.

[Crimean partisan 1974]

In our documents .... well, since the documents do not have it, Vadim Borisovich Shavrov has it .... the letter designation P-40 K means that he was equipped with the Klimov M-105 motor, he is also VK-105, ..that was the simple reason is fuel, alisson did not keep detonations on a surrogate, and there simply wasn’t another. so it was decided
now about the fighter pilots .... they often and densely redirected to other regiments and units .... a vivid example is my fellow countryman Amet Khan Sultan, started at 4 IAP on I-153. then in the area of ​​Stalingrad in the special unit of Dodonov (this is the curtain. in fact, Denisov), where the La-5 and Yak-7K (future Yak-9) circled, and then at the 9th Guards and Aviation Administration and in the nine that just did not fly ... like this
and another interesting fact .... there was such a female fighter regiment of the 589th, so here ... this regiment shot down only 35 self-opponents, losing 63 of its aircraft. Yak-1 and Yak-3, ..but the thing is .... of the 35 shot down sp. accounted for two girls, Kati Budanova -10 shot down. perished, eternal memory. and Lilia Litvyak-11 shot down. died. eternal memory ... but now the moment is such that the girls earned the shot down in different regiments before their appointment. Katya in 73th Guards and IAP shot her shot down, and Lilya in 9th Guards and IAP, while being led, and as a rule, the presenters shared with the presenters. .... in short, the matter is very confusing. ... either the female regiment didn’t bring down anything at all. or pulling an owl on a globe ....... yes to the article an interesting question .... but what is shot down in a group?

[Alf]

Quote: Crimean partisan 1974

.and what is shot down in a group?

If I understand correctly, Ivanov lit, but Hans left, and Petrov finished off.

[Crimean partisan 1974]

the intrigue however ........ Ivanov and Petrov could have been from other IAP, and maybe from other air divisions, or even from different air armies in general ...... everything is clear with the gunmen. victory is counted as the winner, no matter where he serves, it is his personal account that does not belong to the air division, the Anglo-Saxons had 1.25 victories and 1.4-inprinsepe also had a personal account, regardless of the division ....... but the devil breaks his leg when " KNOWN IN THE GROUP "... I didn’t give an example about Litvyak and Budanova, but with a fellow countryman there was a mess ------ 14 in a group, ....... in short, let's figure it out if it's interesting

[Pavel57]

On the Eastern Front - R-39. The proportion of Heroes flying on it is quite noticeable.

[Elena Zakharova]

There are more heroes on the Yaks.

[Rzzz]

Quote: Pavel57

The proportion of Heroes flying on it is quite noticeable.

That’s what it says against the plane. The device was very complex, only high-class pilots could cope with it.

[Sahalinets]

And how can you choose just a fighter? Here it is necessary to look at specialization.
The best decker is Hellket.
The best night light is Black Widow.
The best interceptor is Spitfire of later episodes.
The best information security is FV-190.
The best escort is Mustang.
But as for the best front-line fighter, it's hard to say ...

[Alf]

Quote: Sahalinets

The best night light is Black Widow.

He-219

Quote: Sahalinets

The best interceptor is Spitfire of later episodes.

Mk-14

[Sahalinets]

Americans with radars were radically better.

[Elena Zakharova]

How do you feel about the Mitsubishi A6M?
And to I-4 ??

[Jack O'Neill]

Zero is good, but not very beautiful. Sat in Zero with a katana and that's it, the whole world is at your feet.
After all, the most maneuverable monoplane ...


PS

If in Russian then - HellkEt.

Hellkit.

[Alf]

Quote: Elena Zakharova

How do you feel about the Mitsubishi A6M?

Excellent maneuverability, huge range, a complete lack of armor and no survivability.
The disadvantages are the continuation of the merits.

[Elena Zakharova]

Quote: Sahalinets

Hellket.

If in Russian then - HellkEt.

[sg7s]

So here - "in specialties" - escort - IMHO - yaks (only starting with Yak-1M) (but here under the Ily - low heights, only the bend and the preservation of silts at any cost (the loss of at least one is always a showdown) ... air superiority - either gustav or la-7 ... assault - definitely - fokker., etc.

[Eug]

I would very much like to see statistics "shot down .... pcs. / Was .... aircraft in the Air Force." I can't figure it out.

[Vladimir Mashkov]

All the talk about which aircraft (including a fighter) is "the best", "better" or "worse" than another is stupid and meaningless, if you do not take into account a huge number of factors: the features of each design, its application for certain tasks. It is clear that completely different fighters were needed to accompany the "flying fortresses" during the raid on Germany, the air war on the Western and Eastern fronts, the battle over the Pacific Ocean. Even different missions on the same front require different fighters! For example, high-altitude fighters are needed to repel raids at high altitudes, and front-line fighters for low and medium altitudes. For example, on the Eastern Front of the USSR, the Yak-3 and La-7 were most suitable for escorting attack aircraft and bombers, for maneuvering combat, and the FV-190 and Me-109 of the latest modifications were most suitable for shooting down Soviet aircraft in Germany. There was no better escort fighter B-17 than the Mustang, and the Lightnings, Hellkets and Corsairs successfully fought with the Japanese. Spitfires, Me-109, Yak-9 were universally used. All of them differed from each other in weight, engine power, weapons, design, performance characteristics. Even with takeoff and landing characteristics: "Airacobra" and "Kingcobra" had a rear engine location and centering with a nose wheel, and excellent "Spitfires" and Me-109 had a narrow chassis track and high torque! Therefore, it makes no sense to talk about the best fighter. You can only designate a group of the best planes, each of which will lose in some way to the others!

[Pereira]

All these considerations are only for Russians.
For Americans and British, the question is not at all. Mustang and Spitfire. The rest are not interesting.

[Alf]

Quote: Pereira

For Americans and British, the question is not at all. Mustang and Spitfire. The rest are not interesting.

Yes, they do not know about others ...

[Zeev zeev]

Quite a bold statement. For example, I'm not Russian, but for me the question still stands. Spitfire or Tempest? Mustang or Corsair? FW-190 or Me-262? La-7 or Yak-9? "Zero" or "Raiden"? The planes are really very different, both in purpose and performance characteristics, and they cannot be compared unequivocally. If we take a multipurpose aircraft, which has managed to shoot down, bomb, and reconnaissance for its service, then definitely the P-51D Mustang. The aircraft was in service with a bunch of countries, was engaged in almost any military job and served until the 1980s.

[pmkemcity]

I think that La-9 and La-11 should be included necessarily, because these are the same La-7, but equated with the possibilities of US production. So honestly it will be.

[Alf]

Quote: pmkemcity

but equated with US manufacturing capabilities.

"How can your mother, I apologize, understand?"

[pmkemcity]

Quote: Alf

"How can your mother, I apologize, understand?"

All-metal aircraft.
"In terms of range and duration of flight in the most advantageous mode, the 130 aircraft has a significant advantage over the La-7, Yak-3 and Yak-9U aircraft.
This advantage of the aircraft "130" in flight range can be used to escort short-range bombers to their full range, provided that the fuel supply is further increased.
In terms of the power of the firing salvo, the 130 aircraft has a significant superiority over the La-7, Yak-3 and Yak-9U aircraft. The aircraft was equipped with four synchronous NS-23 cannons with 300 rounds of ammunition. It should be noted that the future La-9 with one of the best cannons was rightfully considered the most heavily armed piston fighter.
In air combat on horizontal and vertical maneuvers at altitudes of 2000-6000 m, the 130 and La-7 aircraft are equivalent. Within 20-25 minutes of the battle, they can go into each other's tail at the range of aimed fire ...
In air combat with the Yak-3 aircraft on a horizontal maneuver at altitudes of 3000-5000 m, the latter has a slight advantage over the "130" aircraft. On left and right bends, the Yak-3 aircraft enters the tail of the 130 aircraft at a distance of 200-300 m through 5-6 bends. On vertical maneuver at altitudes of 3000-5000 m, the Yak-3 aircraft also has an advantage over the 130 aircraft ...
The 130 had significantly better cockpit visibility than not only the La-7, but also the German FV-190 and the American Thunderbolt fighter. "

[Alf]

Quote: pmkemcity

All-metal aircraft.

I agree with your quote absolutely and completely, but where does the possibility of US production?

[pmkemcity]

Quote: Alf

I agree with your quote absolutely and completely, but where does the possibility of US production?

The United States has absolutely nothing to do with it. I am talking about the capabilities of the USSR to produce an all-metal aircraft, and nothing more.

[Tamek]

I think here it is necessary to approach this issue as a tender for the purchase. For example, what kind of fighter would Norway buy in the 40th in order to successfully resist any enemy. Imagine yourself the king of Norway, and you have the opportunity to buy any fighter 40th year of release, what will be your choice?

[Alf]

Quote: Tamek

For example, what kind of fighter would Norway buy in the 40th in order to successfully resist any enemy.

None. To fight back, you need to have numerous air forces and a mass pilot training system. There was neither one nor the other in Norway-40.
Give at least 40 Starfury to the Vikings

, the result would be the same.

[Crimean partisan 1974]

You can identify the group of the best aircraft ....... and you need to identify who and how many times was shot down in battle ... and an example ... Pokryshkin 3 times (1 on the MiG-3 and two times on the cobra), Kozhedub 0 once on the La series. (although there were emergency landings, his La was returning to service). Skororokhov on La-5FN was not only not shot down but his Swallow was never damaged in battle. and at the same time, the German night light Heinz Schnaufer on the finished Me-110 fighter was never shot down with 121 (or rather 122) victories officially recorded, unlike the one-year-old Hartmann who replaced 16 messers. ...something like that

[Rusticolus]

Actually, Pokryshkin was shot down 3 times on the MiG-2. Once the plane was completely lost. He still planted the second one, but then he had to leave him. But this was still when Kozhedub sat in a flight school. But La was still not in sight.

[Crimean partisan 1974]

generally Pokryshkina ..... no, shot down once. and the second time he got damaged on the MiG-3 from the attack on the Pe-2 which is very similar to the Me-110, other sources claim that Pokryshkin shot down the Su-2, which I doubt very much, Pokryshkin’s diaries weren’t made public. by this is as is

[Rusticolus]

The first time he was shot down in the Yass area. There, trying to land a plane, he crashed it. The second time in the area of ​​Mogilev-Podolsky, the downfall can be considered relative. He landed the plane with minor damage, and even tried to take him out with a group of soldiers leaving the encirclement, but later he had to be thrown and burned. And the story of the Su-2 happened on the very first day. There is only disagreement over which of the BBAP it was. In general, it all happened somewhere within one month.

[Crimean partisan 1974]

within one month ...... wax the air battle is seconds. there is a difference in night air combat where up to 4 hours pass in the search for a target

[Rusticolus]

I mean, about a month has passed from the history of the Su-2 to the second shot down. This is to how much difficult but quickly then had to learn to fight.

[Crimean partisan 1974]

the story of the Su-2 is very dark. I have facts that Sanya shot down the Pe-2, and the time of a second or months is not important, the main thing is that I repeat Pokryshkin’s diaries are not made public

[Rusticolus]

I'm afraid the diaries will not help here either. The story is not so dark. Confused silhouettes, shot down. It turned out his own, and even lost the arrow. Pokryshkin was then not put to the wall for this. It is quite clear that few people liked to talk about this. Neither he himself nor those who were then nearby. Especially afterwards. And then the hero, and it seems that such a jamb that you can not wash. In general, I think this largely helped him to become a hero. He considered for two had to fight, for himself and for that guy.

[Crimean partisan 1974]

Well, stories of friendly fire with sad consequences will always be camouflaged, ..... forget this story ... let it eat as it is ....... but let's get to the topic .... so what kind of WWII fighter was radiated .. ...

[Rusticolus]

There are too many different factors in this issue. In one parameter - one, in other tasks - another, in the third place - the third. Some of them did not go to that war at all, although they were very good if everything was different. It's easier to talk about who likes who better. But here, as they say, "all markers are different." Personally, I like the later MiG-3 series better. But because of the motors, it did not grow together. Develop it as the Yaki or Lavochkin could be a very interesting car. At least at the beginning of the war, he was the only one who was not inferior to the Germans in speed. And from the heavy twin-engine, I would probably single out the Japanese.

[Crimean partisan 1974]

Well, the story with the MiG is quite interesting, and it started with the I-185 which, according to the idea of ​​the fighter king Polikarpov, should have been the top of the fighters, but the tragic death of Chkalov and the not-finished M-88 engine (which they never brought to mind) put an end to 185 -m, and it was precisely Mikoyan and Gurevich who breathed into the life of this project. but there were no engines, Polikarpov was outcast, but there was a glider, then it was decided to stick in the AM crawler, very heavy, but thanks to the two-stage inflation, very powerful for heights of 6-8 km, but all this shnyaga did not justify itself .... so it developed if the M-88 engine then the MiG would then become the most powerful fighter, not only in the Red Army but also in the whole world ...... how hot it is. such is selavy

[Rusticolus]

Yes that's right. MiG is the development of Polikarpov, but he still knew a lot about fighters. But it did not grow together.

[Crimean partisan 1974]

Well, a lot of things have not grown together with the MiG-3, so Mikoyan and Gurevich were not soared with the reagents to perfection the third ones, we only know that there were test samples with synchronous ShVAK and also with ASh-3 motors. but with the ShVAK syncs, it was initially a failure, and the ASH-82 went for better models. La-82 and the famous Tu-5

[Rusticolus]

50+ cars with ShVAK can hardly be called just a test sample. But most of them were assembled from ready-made car kits when the decision to end production was already taken.

[Alf]

Quote: Crimean partisan 1974

and the unfinished M-88 motor (which was never brought to mind) put an end to the 185th

And they never planned to put M-88 on I-185 and did not plan.

Quote: Crimean partisan 1974

not finished M-88 motor (which they never brought to mind)

The unfinished engine will not be released throughout the war.

[Crimean partisan 1974]

unfinished motor .. the whole war ..... duck is the fact of the matter is that the whole war was brought up but never brought. and along the way, either in the 43rd roofing felts in 44 in general on the M-88, the work was turned in favor of the M-82 or as later (ASh-820 which to this day plows in a deformed version on the old An-2 and Mi-4 pinwheels , ... but to our sheep .... Dry completion of the M-88 did not wait for its Su-6 attack aircraft. As a result, he never appeared at the front, tried the M-82 engine, but it was already occupied on La, Tu-2, and actually on the IL-4 you brought, also DB-3f, I don’t know how many DB-3F were with the m-88 engines. According to one source, up to about five thousand with the M-88, others have much less then by a third.

[oldzek]

which one can only be better said by those who used all these planes. for me the main thing is the pilot’s head. if our eagles are poor ... and the eagles flew and won on the I-16, PO-2, etc.

[Cristall]

You can even bet on Zero ...

[Elena Zakharova]

I also put on the A6M

[sg7s]

Not bad, the king of the turn (Yaki, Ishaki, and Spita on the turn are resting, I won’t write numbers), BUT - tank protection (flashed from the tracers like lighters), the pilot’s protection, and a little bit more speed.

[dauria]

, well, add a little speed.

Then it will not "turn". 22 sq. M. Wing of 2,5 tons and consumptive engine. To add the speed - you need to reduce the wing to 17, the engine if the star is big-chested up to 1500 horses. The mass will increase - it is necessary to strengthen the chassis. There look and rubber tanks, and armor, and guns Then it will become a decent Focke-Wulf or La-5.
Their weak engine ruined them. There was no stock. Messer won with the same glider (in size) from Spain to the post-war Czech versions flew. From 700 horses in the 37th to 2000 "at the reheat" in the 45th.

[sg7s]

I love reasoned answers. You are right, but - there is already a star, force it (like 82nd), and - voila. I didn't understand why the area should be reduced .... Play with quality, change the aspect ratio. By the way, do not forget that the bend is not only the radius, but also the speed ... after all, we measure the bend in seconds. And the Messer did everyone (now not about bending) on ​​a not very successful glider only due to the genius of German engineers (rearranged stub, sectional controllable flaps, SRD (and this is in the 42nd year (!)) versatility, modularity, inverted in-shape, automatic step, cannon in collapse, etc.)

[dauria]

this is not only the radius, but also the speed ... after all, we measure the turn in seconds.

Everything seems to be right with you. Just try to move on. Overload - the square of the speed per radius. The wing cannot work more than a certain Su (well, angle of attack). Means - will not give out the necessary lifting force = overload to the mass.
Or reduce the weight, or increase the area.
So we get it - you don't need a super acrobat, you don't need a super racer, you don't need a super strongman. A fighter is needed. As Kurt Tank said - "I do not make a prize horse, but a cavalry hardy horse."
In principle, the history of the creation and modifications of the FW 190 is the standard of a competent approach. Prototype - weaker engine, smaller wing. The motor did not go into series - it puts another heavier, more powerful - and immediately slightly increases the wing and in span and decreases the constriction. He himself flew around his cars and immediately understood - “the car has lost its“ volatility ”(an interesting term for a designer?). Then he realized that the star's prospects are over - he puts a water inline on the Dora - and lengthens the fuselage by inserting into the tail and recalculates the areas.
His glider always matches the motor exactly. And the motor - fighting qualities in armor, guns, range.
Actually, I like La-5 and therefore - they managed in such bestial conditions with the wildest deficit not only not to be left behind, but also to do something with this German.

[sg7s]

So so. on the fingers - a bend - a steady movement, created mainly by the lifting force, a part of which (multiplied by the cosine gamma (roll angle) keeps it in the horizon (without lowering). That is, it balances the weight, the other part (by sine) actually "rounds out" (may my teachers forgive me) trajectory. Lift force - Su x density x speed squared x area in half. You correctly indicated the area, but forgot about the profile and shape itself (which is simplified and create this very coefficient. Su. Overload on a bend = 1 / cos of the roll angle, i.e. a turn from 60 degrees gives exactly 2 units. Engine power makes it possible for us to keep the plane in a bank with a large roll due to higher speed (if your power makes it possible to increase the roll angle - the only question is the pilot's endurance (a bank with a roll of more than 60 is an aerobatics figure.) The main thing remains - Su (its reserve up to the crit of the angle of attack) and WEIGHT, which must be balanced with a part of the lift (which is why the Fokker was never considered as a bank)
About "volatility". The pilots have such a term For example - the Yak-42 is very "flying", we said - "you plant it, and it flies" ... About a small carcass - "where I removed the ore - there and sat down" .... And in - in general, I agree with you ...

[dauria]

So significant. on fingers

This turn was given to you .. Well, you yourself understand everything.
In order to minimize the radius (and time too), it is necessary to reduce the speed and increase the angle. At the same time, keep it in the horizon - that is, increase the lift (both of its projections). And this is density, square of speed, area and Su. Or reduce weight. That is, to fly lower, with a thick supporting wing, with a small load on the area. In addition, it is strong enough, plus a motor with the necessary margin, since Cx grows in proportion to the Su square (remember there 2pi Su square below the elongation and shape factor?).
So, no one will optimize the plane for the sake of time and radius of turn. Otherwise, get a biplane. And here is literally from the instruction of the 43rd year
On a turn, La-5 enters the tail of the Me-109 through three or four turns. Despite this, it is not recommended to transfer the battle to turns due to the general shortcomings of the battle on turns. If for some reason the enemy himself turns into a bend, then you can chase him in a bend, but with an indispensable cover from above, since often the enemy transfers the battle to bends in order to forge our fighters and strike them from above.

[dauria]

gun in the collapse and so on and so forth.)

Hmm, Daimler-Benz did not pull a real gun "in the collapse". The gun was overheating. Ours, yes, it is in the collapse in its purest form. The German had a gun behind the engine, and in the collapse an empty pipe ran to the gearbox shaft and bushing. But this is so, little things. But what I will advise you, read -http: //wio.ru/tacftr/ww2p1.htm
This is the 43rd year of instruction. And it turns out that a turn is not a recommended maneuver, and the main thing is tactics and the ability to use every free second to exceed. And all the limit figures for speed and rate of climb are not so important. And the balance of all-all parameters is important. And the level of pilot training is above all. It’s not just that Kozhedub and Pokryshkin sketched their battles and closely watched the German and his tricks.
Best regards

[Tamek]

You need to choose by year, starting from the 39th. A total of seven should succeed.

[Pavel57]

Quote: Elena Zakharova

There are more heroes on the Yaks.

An excellent comparison criterion is the number of heroes per number of aircraft produced.

[Aag]

Try to conduct a survey, at least, among your friends: which car is better. Next, which one would you like to have? And which one can they really afford to buy and operate? As they say, there are three big differences))). Add a time factor: " for three rubles, but yesterday, or five, but today "
So, apparently, with any product, product ... With weapons, it’s probably even more difficult: regarding the topic of the survey, -fighters of WWII times, -cost (production, operation), survivability (combat, and operational), of course, -LTX , and much, much more ... So, as applied to military equipment. Many of the above parameters are leveled out by combat effectiveness. Or, in the absence thereof, they are partially compensated.
Sorry, it’s a lot like ... But, I hope, I brought my thought (!)))) ...

[Pavel57]

Quote: Pavel57

Quote: Elena Zakharova

There are more heroes on the Yaks.

An excellent comparison criterion is the number of heroes per number of aircraft produced.

It is not clear why the minuses were thrown. Then another criterion is the number of aircraft shot down by a particular type of fighter. But heroes are easier to count. Maybe someone will write such a one with a similar analysis.

[Pavel57]

Quote: pmkemcity

I think that La-9 and La-11 should be included necessarily, because these are the same La-7, but equated with the possibilities of US production. So honestly it will be.

There is a historical example - the battle of La-9 against R-51 in the Far East after the war. The result is a draw - by zeros.

[pmkemcity]

Quote: Pavel57

Quote: pmkemcity

I think that La-9 and La-11 should be included necessarily, because these are the same La-7, but equated with the possibilities of US production. So honestly it will be.

There is a historical example - the battle of La-9 against R-51 in the Far East after the war. The result is a draw - by zeros.

In China, the La-11 was often met in the air with the fighter P-38 Lightning and P-51 Mustang. One of them, April 2, 1950, sadly ended for the Americans. That morning, a couple of fighters, led by pilot Guzhov, intercepted and destroyed two Mustangs that invaded China's airspace.

[Pavel57]

Quote: rzzz

Quote: Pavel57

The proportion of Heroes flying on it is quite noticeable.

That’s what it says against the plane. The device was very complex, only high-class pilots could cope with it.

Everything is ambiguous here. Pre-trained pilots were put on domestic planes, and then natural selection survived, already experienced.

[Narak-zempo]

The Cobra has rear centering. Our pilots were used to it after the I-16, but the Americans did not.

[NF68]

In theory, it would be necessary to compare front-line fighters with front-line fighters. Multi-purpose with multi-purpose, escort fighters with escort fighters, high-altitude fighters with high-altitude fighters, etc. Otherwise, you get something like comparing warm to soft.

[Baron pardus]

FOR WHAT? If you need a fighter bomber, then this is either P47, or Corsair, or Tempest, or P38, or FW190. If you need an escort fighter, then this is a Mustang 51D, with Merlin (and not with Allison). If you need to shoot down heavy bombers, then you need FV190, P38, or Ki84, or Raiden. Tempest, too, can handle it, 4 guns are Hispano - no one will leave the offended. There were a lot of very good front-line fighters, offhand Spitfire, G55, PE2005, M205 (the Italians are very unfairly forgotten, but the Machchi, Fiat and Reggian fighters were excellent), Ki 61, Ki100, Ki84, N1K1J, our Yaki and La. The carrier-based fighters, these are Hellket, Corsair, and Sifaier, If by the sum of all indicators: Speed, maneuver, armament, range ... I would call the Supmarin Spitfayer MKXIV. EMNIP maneuverability was not inferior to the Yak-3 and LA. In speed and rate of climb superior. Carried up to 500 kg of bombs (this is certainly not Lightning and not Tempest). Armament 2 guns, 2 heavy machine guns. By and large, in terms of aggregate TTX, there simply are no equal to Spitfayer. They even made a carrier-based fighter out of it. Spitfire Mk14 is faster than La7, higher rate of climb, longer radius of action, and equal in maneuverability. HISPANO cannon ballistics are much better, the projectile is heavier, the B20 has a higher rate of fire. La7 has all the firing points in the nose. In armament La-7, IMHO is better, but given the superiority of Sptifaier in speed and climb with all other things being equal (horizontal maneuver), Spitfaier seems to be the best fighter. In addition, Spit had better automation.

[Vladimir Mashkov]

Quote: Crimean partisan 1974

You can identify the group of the best aircraft ....... and you need to identify who and how many times was shot down in battle ... and an example ... Pokryshkin 3 times (1 on the MiG-3 and two times on the cobra), Kozhedub 0 once on the La series. (although there were emergency landings, his La was returning to service). Skororokhov on La-5FN was not only not shot down but his Swallow was never damaged in battle. and at the same time, the German night light Heinz Schnaufer on the finished Me-110 fighter was never shot down with 121 (or rather 122) victories officially recorded, unlike the one-year-old Hartmann who replaced 16 messers. ...something like that

I do not agree. Excellent pilots fought well on mediocre aircraft, and mediocre ones fought poorly on good aircraft. You offer to evaluate pilots, and it is proposed to evaluate planes.

[Vladimir Mashkov]

I repeat: it is impossible to unequivocally determine the "best fighter", you can only determine the groups of aircraft most suitable for performing certain tasks under certain conditions, and EVERYONE will be inferior to the rest in some way!

[Narak-zempo]

"And talk?"

[Graz]

let's talk about this, talk about how we live

[123456789]

Quote: dauria

From plywood Yak and La.

And you consider them as composite and then it will not be so sad

So my vote is for La-5, which in Gorky gathered aunts and kids, wrapping steel tubes with kipers tape, and plywood tails and wings were assembled and glued. The plane is a soldier.

Compare its characteristics with the Me-262.

[Narak-zempo]

Quote: 123456789

Do you consider them as composite

Right. Plywood is a composite by definition.
And also some of its species were pathetically called wood-layered plastics.

[petrol cutter]

And what's the point of talking about them? Honestly. All said a hundred times.
They all flew at them, experienced the whole truth ... Participated in air battles. Pound water in a mortar? I do not understand the essence of gatherings ...
Another conversation, suddenly the pilots from the front really returned.
And, well, come on ... Do you remember how I went there, near Kovel, into the tail of the four "Messers"! ... And knocked them all the parasites to hell! ... On my Lavochkin.