“Tank armies clogged the roads to Berlin”: about this and other reproaches to Zhukov

The year of the 75th anniversary of the Victory in the Great Patriotic War continues. Not so long ago, in Moscow and a number of other cities of Russia, a parade was held dedicated to this event - the same one that was postponed from May 9 in connection with the coronavirus pandemic. Also, a sensational article by Russian President Vladimir Putin about the Second World War was recently published. They are discussing it both in Russia and abroad. We can confidently say that interest in the events of the 1930s and 40s not only does not fade, but rather increases.

Today, one of the topics most discussed in this context is the topic related to the storming of the capital of Nazi Germany by Soviet troops. Usually, when this topic is raised, heated debate arises as to whether it was necessary to lay so many lives of Soviet soldiers for the capture of Berlin, or whether it was possible to do with less victims.

Famous Russian historian Alexei Isaev talks about aspects of the Berlin operation on air of the Archival Revolution. The expert talks about one of the reproaches that was expressed regarding Georgy Zhukov: “Why did he introduce tank armies that eventually clogged all the roads. ” Alexey Isaev considers this reproach to be unfair and brings his arguments to this effect.

Comments

[NEXUS]

What is not a frame, then an expert. He would be there in the 45th, and better in the 41st ... I would have looked how he planned what then. It is easy to criticize the one who cannot answer. (I'm talking about Zhukov).

[avg]

As a rule, such theoretical physicists, even they cannot write home poodles in sneakers.

[NEXUS]

Quote: avg

As a rule, such theoretical physicists cannot even wean a home poodle in slippers.

My father spoke about such a boxer by correspondence.

[avg]

Aptly! "Not in the eyebrow, but in the eye."

[Cyril G ...]

By the way, it's really not easy ...

[Dr. Frankenstucker]

look at the video for a start, and then talk about the poodle and slippers.

[hagen]

Quote: NEXUS

It is easy to criticize the one who cannot answer. (I'm talking about Zhukov).

Have you heard the name of the critic? He, too, has not criticized anyone for a long time, but in 1945 TAM was present. You spend 1,5 hours, listen to a real historian without emotions, and then you will realize that it was worth it. You yourself would not have said better about the Berlin operation.

[Alekseev]

Quote: NEXUS

Easy to criticize

That's right!
But remember and analyze, including errors, is necessary. That would not be allowed in the future. The military and political leaders had personal errors and incorrect systemic actions ... They had to pay a great price for them ...
But it is a different matter that many "foreign agents" who have joined them in their "simplicity" of citizens compose vile insinuations about the same GK Zhukov and other generals during the war.
But this has nothing to do with history, it is a political struggle against Russia, they say, what kind of civilized state it could be if there were such leaders and did this ....

[smaug78]

And what is Isaev criticizing Zhukov about?

[figwam]

How do people manage in five minutes to watch a video of 1 hour 20 minutes and scribble condemning comments?

[zenion]

In order to understand that the egg is spoiled - it is not necessary to eat it.

[figwam]

Quote: zenion

In order to understand that the egg is spoiled - it is not necessary to eat it.

I did not look, but I condemn)))

[smaug78]

In order to understand that the egg is spoiled - it is not necessary to eat it.

"Why did he introduce tank armies, which eventually clogged all the roads." Alexey Isaev considers this reproach to be unfair and brings his arguments to this effect.

So, Isaev is wrong and tank armies clogged the road?

[NEXUS]

Quote: figvam

How do people manage in five minutes to watch a video of 1 hour 20 minutes and scribble condemning comments?

Didn’t come up with a simple and elementary idea that a person watched this video before this video appeared on VO?
Very basic thought, don’t you?

[mat-vey]

"A very elementary thought, isn't it?"
If you watch the video and then read your commentary, such an idea does not occur ...

[Dr. Frankenstucker]

Publication - 10.51
Comment - 10.57

You, sorry, watched the rewind watch in 6 minutes?
That you expressed about Isaev

Quote: NEXUS

What is not a frame, then an expert. It would be there in the 45th, and better in the 41st ... I

?

[bya965]

Isaev is the best. And he is a historian, not a military man. I would advise everyone to listen and watch and read.
I put a minus.

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

I do not know to cry or laugh! Traffic jams in Berlin? So the Wehrmacht for congestion on the roads in the Addenins of the 45th must betray obstruction !!!!!!!!!
Ours at least won, but the Germans got rid of under complete bad luck !!!!

[Courier]

The storming of Berlin was worth giving to the Americans. They just killed the soldiers. Anyway, then the city was divided into different zones of occupation.

[avg]

Now everyone would surely know that the Americans had defeated and knocked out the combined forces of Russians and Nazis from Berlin, and we, in a malicious rage, dropped a bomb on Hiroshima in revenge.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: avg

Now everyone would surely know that the Americans had defeated and knocked out the combined forces of Russians and Nazis from Berlin, and we, in a malicious rage, dropped a bomb on Hiroshima in revenge.

It will take several years, thanks to propaganda and the media, the whole Western world will think that it was.

[Lipchanin]

Quote: tihonmarine

It will take several years, thanks to propaganda and the media, the whole Western world will think that it was.

Well, in Japan they "know" for a long time that the USSR dropped the atomic bomb

[Dr. Frankenstucker]

Quote: Lipchanin

Well, in Japan they "know" for a long time that the USSR dropped the atomic bomb

where does this information come from?
OBS?

[Lipchanin]

Quote: Dr. Frankenshtuzer

OBS?

Not. They wrote about this under the USSR

[Dr. Frankenstucker]

Who wrote? Japanese during the USSR?

[Lipchanin]

Quote: Dr. Frankenshtuzer

Who wrote? Japanese during the USSR?

Soviet newspapers wrote about it.
Which, I don’t remember. Time you know a lot has passed

[Dr. Frankenstucker]

Soviet newspapers, of course, were not a model of reliable information, but they did not write such a game. The fact of the atomic bombing of Japan by the States was never questioned by the Japanese, and they never accused the USSR of this. That would be idiocy. The ignorance of modern youth should not be presented as the official position of the education system. With us, half of the young people hardly name facts and milestones related to WWII. Japanese youth is no exception.

[Lipchanin]

Quote: Dr. Frankenshtuzer

but they didn’t write such a game

They wrote. I read it myself

The fact of the atomic bombing of Japan by the States has never been challenged by the Japanese,

Officially no

The ignorance of modern youth should not be presented as the official position of the education system.

So I'm talking about the fact that young people through the media and drive it into the head

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Lipchanin

Well, in Japan they "know" for a long time that the USSR dropped the atomic bomb

A drop in education, a close-sighted outlook, constant propaganda, everything leads to a curvature of the brain. Social networks and television have now twisted these brains, how many young people are now reading documentary and historical literature. Maxim reads people about the world history of wars according to the Harper Encyclopedia of Military History R.E. Dupuis and T.N. Dupuis, in which all wars fit into several pages.

[Free wind]

They don’t know, there are many museums on this subject, and since childhood, the Japanese know who dropped bombs on them.

[Dr. Frankenstucker]

Yes, of course, Wind. Once frozen by someone, they happily picked up the garbage, and now, if you please - "the Japanese are sure that the USSR threw the atomic bomb."

[BIABIA]

Yeah. So I imagine a striped flag over the Reichstag. Soldiers Michael and John hoisted the banner ..... ugh ....

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Courier

The storming of Berlin was worth giving to the Americans.

Those would have taken Berlin easier, lifted 1000 "flying fortresses" into the air and bombed for two weeks day and night, until no one was left alive.

[Dr. Frankenstucker]

Quote: tihonmarine

and they would bomb for two weeks, day and night, until no one was left alive.

well, right. Moreover, the tactics of the fiery tornado worked out in Dresden.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Dr. Frankenshtuzer

Moreover, the tactics of the fiery tornado worked out in Dresden.

And on the islands of the Pacific. On the military side, this is more reasonable.

[To be or not to be]

So the Americans just drifted to take it
“The Americans, almost without resistance, crossed the Rhine, and the Western allies had a chance to enter Berlin before us.
On April 11-12, 1945, the Americans went to the Elbe and captured several bridgeheads on its eastern shore.
W. Churchill demanded from the Commander-in-Chief of the Allied Forces General D. Eisenhower (future President of the United States) without hesitation to go to Berlin.
But after analyzing the situation and assessing his possible losses - about 100000 people, D. Eisenhower decided that it was “too high a price for a prestigious goal, especially considering that we then have to step back and give way to other guys”, bearing in mind that part of Berlin, in accordance with the agreements, will still have to be ceded to the Soviet Union. ”

On March 28, 1945, he sends a message to I. Stalin, in which he informs that he does not attach strategic importance to Berlin and refuses the intention to storm it, that his plans include the encirclement and defeat of the German troops defending the Ruhr, as well as the isolation of the area from the rest Germany. "Https://flot.com/blog/piton56/-o-mifakh-i-fantaziyakh-istorika-aisaeva-o-shturme-zeelovskikh-vysot.php

[antivirus]

It is better to divide Kiyev with RB in 24 g

[Paranoid50]

Quote: Courier

The storming of Berlin was worth giving to the Americans.

There, hungry people are waiting for their orders, while someone on the Internet climbs. They’ll get fired, and there won’t be any money for the Internet.

[mag nit]

A "military historian" who has turned away from military service.

[Dr. Frankenstucker]

what's the connection

[Lipchanin]

"Why did he introduce tank armies, which eventually clogged all the roads"

Traffic jams arranged. Wow, people were late for work.
As soon as possible after 75 years, not owning the full information, seeing the war only on TV, write such Nonsense !!!

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Lipchanin

As soon as possible after 75 years, not owning the full information, seeing the war only on TV, write such Nonsense !!!

There is such an amazing thing, SOFA called. With him, all the strategists are newly made, all the world battles plan and always win. Where to Zhukov, Rokossovsky, Manstein and Guderian.

[Lipchanin]

Quote: tihonmarine

There is such an amazing thing, SOFA called. With him, all the strategists are newly made, all the world battles plan and always win.

[tihonmarine]

The sofa should be old-fashioned, washed under the body, comfortable, then this is a real sofa, and it is not a shame for guests to show their working sofa.

[Lipchanin]

Apparently, this sofa is a "veteran" and belongs to no less than the "Generalisimo of sofa wars"

[2 Level Advisor]

Yes, this sofa has passed more than one battle and burned more than once on a campaign))) on its pedestal!

[Lipchanin]

First there will be

[Dr. Frankenstucker]

Quote: tihonmarine

With him, all the strategists are newly minted, all world battles plan and always win. Where to Zhukov, Rokossovsky, Manstein and Guderian.

Personally, Isaev inspires respect. It’s not fair to apply your sofa fantasies to him, to put it mildly, do not you think?

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Dr. Frankenshtuzer

Personally, Isaev inspires respect.

I, too, respect Alexei Isaev, he has many worthy videos about the history of WWII, but he is not alone in history, and there are many that are difficult to name as historians, but they are trying to convey theirs to our ears. Here they are the "sofa". Although this video, I was simply not impressed.

[hagen]

Quote: Lipchanin

Traffic jams arranged. Wow, people were late for work.

Actually, Zhukov Chuikov reproached with traffic jams. The same is not the last soldier of that war. And it’s better to watch the video. Isaev, in my opinion, is a rather corrosive historian. It is interesting and very instructive to read. One problem for all writing historians is that they do not like to put maps on a digestible scale to their books.

[Lipchanin]

Quote: Hagen

Actually, Zhukov Chuikov reproached with traffic jams.

And where was he in a hurry past Berlin?

[hagen]

Quote: Lipchanin

And where was he in a hurry past Berlin?

If you mean Chuikov, then he was in no hurry, just becoming a marshal, he often criticized Zhukov, considering himself smarter.

[TAMBU]

wow, here the "experts" came running ...
if that is today one of the leading specialists in the Second World War in our country. But in order to understand why such a heading is needed to start watching the video ... but apparently nobody needs it here ... n not to drag bags ...

[Dr. Frankenstucker]

Quote: TAMBU

But in order to understand why such a headline is necessary to start to see the video ...

That's it) But this obvious thing somehow passed by the commentators. All fell upon Isaev. Maybe TSa is to blame - it was necessary to annotate the video in a different way)

[Paranoid50]

Quote: Dr. Frankenshtuzer

Everyone fell upon Isaev

Yes, local residents have a competition on the subject of the one who is faster and more stupid to press and scandal - savages.

[prior]

After scratching your tongue after 75 years, this is not for you to take Berlin in the 45th.

[alone]

There were no other options. In the West, the Germans practically did not resist .. There was a danger that the Allies could reach Berlin earlier .. Here it was necessary to throw all tank armies to a breakthrough. Without this decision, Berlin would simply be taken by the Allies .. to be 60 km from the den and miss the opportunity to take it - this is not forgiven

[Lipchanin]

Quote: lonely

.That had to throw all tank armies on a breakthrough.

A very long time ago, when I was still in school, I heard that Zhukov was offering Stalin not to stop, but to go to Lamanche.
Maybe a rumor, but what I heard, I heard

[Dr. Frankenstucker]

Quote: Lipchanin

A very long time ago, when I was still in school, I heard that Zhukov was offering Stalin not to stop, but to go to Lamanche.

yeah, what kind of nonsense in kitchens from adults you never hear enough. This is not even a "rumor", but some sick fantasy.

[Lipchanin]

Quote: Dr. Frankenshtuzer

yeah, what nonsense in the kitchens from adults or hear enough.

Well then, I was just a boy and believed in adults

This is not even a "rumor", but some sick fantasy.

It was in the early 60s and there were many lively front-line soldiers.
And all such things were told by them.
And all such rumors were born in the trenches

[Dr. Frankenstucker]

Quote: Lipchanin

And all such rumors were born in the trenches

about the English Channel? In the trenches?
NDA ....

[Lipchanin]

Quote: Dr. Frankenshtuzer

about the English Channel? In the trenches?
NDA ....

I repeat

And all such HEARING born in the trenches

This rumor is quite possible and not from a trench.
Then the war veterans believed in the word. For me, my grandfather was an authority. He believed unconditionally.
Now you can twist the sponge

This is not even a "rumor", but some sick fantasy.

about the English Channel? In the trenches?
NDA ....

And in those days, for such a thing they beat

[Dr. Frankenstucker]

Quote: Lipchanin

And in those days, for such a thing they beat

what is it for?

[kartalovkolya]

"Everyone imagines himself to be a strategist, seeing the battle from the outside" - this is the great Georgian poet who said well, right for nonesh experts !!!

[Dr. Frankenstucker]

Quote: kartalovkolya

this is the great Georgian poet said well, right for the current experts !!!

Are you talking about Isaev?
Give a reference to your historical work, please.
How long have you been printing?

[stalkerwalker]

I recognize eminent experts and experts by the instant and inadequate reaction to the video.
As always, not a single fact was cited to refute the words of A. Isaev, but how many emotions and words to raise one's own "ego".
"On the right path, go, comrades!"

[smaug78]

Judging by the comments, most of them wrote here: dyslexic, deaf couch historians

[tihonmarine]

Today, one of the topics most discussed in this context is the topic related to the storming of the capital of Nazi Germany by Soviet troops

This topic was discussed and finalized by our fathers and grandfathers on May 9, 1945. The point is called "The final and unconditional surrender of Germany." There is no need to discuss anything else, our fathers took Berlin by storm for us. Now you can scream scream, but the red flag of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics is raised over the Reichstag, and raised by Soviet soldiers.

[Dr. Frankenstucker]

Quote: tihonmarine

There is no need to discuss anything else, for our fathers did this by storm taking Berlin.

do not discuss, business, if for you personally all topics are closed by "grandfathers". What to impose on? There is history, there are interpretations of certain facts and events, there are different opinions, there are debatable topics. What's wrong? Why this pretentious bogey?

[Brigadier]

«Tank armies clogged roads to Berlin»

What kind of eksperd are not in a network ...
According to their ideas, all our tanks should have been left on the Soviet-Polish border and further attacked exclusively by infantry units with a couple - three or forty support ...

Where do such exPerds come from?

[Dr. Frankenstucker]

Quote: Brigadier

Where do such exPerds come from?

I'm more interested in - where do those who do not read further from the heading / look at the material come from, but scribble rather silly comments.

[zenion]

Take care of the lives of soldiers. When the Germans came to the USSR they were not worried about the lives of citizens who fell into occupation, Hitler was worried about them. The fewer Russians will be the better, for this, any methods are good.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: zenion

When the Germans came to the USSR, they were not worried about the lives of citizens who fell into occupation, Hitler was worried about them.

Stalingrad and Kharkov were almost completely destroyed, and with the Nazi cities it was not necessary to stand on ceremony very much, we did not come to them with the war.

[Prisoner]

"Everyone imagines himself a strategist, seeing the battle from the side ..." (c) This whole canoe is carried by people who, in the overwhelming majority, even in a platoon, let alone in battle, did not command the exercises.

[Vdi73]

The critics of our commanders and strategists on the Second World War divorced, it’s a pity you weren’t there, otherwise you would have shown your military talent, but actually thank God that you were not there

[iouris]

The Americans took Berlin with little blood, without clogging the road with tank armies (this will be written in the history textbook).

[Ros 56]

I would send the current history textbooks to the furnace, take the Soviet ones and add the latest history to them over the past 30-35 years.

[Ros 56]

A good one raised the question, and most importantly, very on time. But by the way, as a hint for the future, why not.

[norkin]

he is a historian, not a boxer! if there is a desire to box, then contact me, but rather to my son, he’s easier and the blow is a little weaker