Military Review

“Tank armies clogged the roads to Berlin”: about this and other reproaches to Zhukov

79

The year of the 75th anniversary of the Victory in the Great Patriotic War continues. Not so long ago, in Moscow and a number of other cities of Russia, a parade was held dedicated to this event - the same one that was postponed from May 9 in connection with the coronavirus pandemic. Also, a sensational article by Russian President Vladimir Putin about the Second World War was recently published. They are discussing it both in Russia and abroad. We can confidently say that interest in the events of the 1930s and 40s not only does not fade, but rather increases.


Today, one of the topics most discussed in this context is the topic related to the storming of the capital of Nazi Germany by Soviet troops. Usually, when this topic is raised, heated debate arises as to whether it was necessary to lay so many lives of Soviet soldiers for the capture of Berlin, or whether it was possible to do with less victims.

Famous Russian historian Alexei Isaev talks about aspects of the Berlin operation on air of the Archival Revolution. The expert talks about one of the reproaches that was expressed regarding Georgy Zhukov: “Why did he introduce tank armies that eventually clogged all the roads. ” Alexey Isaev considers this reproach to be unfair and brings his arguments to this effect.

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  1. NEXUS
    NEXUS 3 July 2020 10: 57 New
    10
    What is not a frame, then an expert. He would be there in the 45th, and better in the 41st ... I would have looked how he planned what then. It is easy to criticize the one who cannot answer. (I'm talking about Zhukov).
    1. avg
      avg 3 July 2020 11: 01 New
      +3
      As a rule, such theoretical physicists, even they cannot write home poodles in sneakers.
      1. NEXUS
        NEXUS 3 July 2020 11: 02 New
        +3
        Quote: avg
        As a rule, such theoretical physicists cannot even wean a home poodle in slippers.

        My father spoke about such a boxer by correspondence.
        1. avg
          avg 3 July 2020 11: 11 New
          0
          Метко! "Не в бровь, а в глаз." yes
      2. Cyril G ...
        Cyril G ... 3 July 2020 12: 01 New
        +1
        By the way, it's really not easy ... laughing
      3. Dr. Frankenstucker
        Dr. Frankenstucker 3 July 2020 13: 01 New
        +2
        look at the video for a start, and then talk about the poodle and slippers.
    2. Hagen
      Hagen 3 July 2020 12: 02 New
      +7
      Quote: NEXUS
      It is easy to criticize the one who cannot answer. (I'm talking about Zhukov).

      Have you heard the name of the critic? He, too, has not criticized anyone for a long time, but in 1945 TAM was present. You spend 1,5 hours, listen to a real historian without emotions, and then you will realize that it was worth it. You yourself would not have said better about the Berlin operation.
    3. Alekseev
      Alekseev 3 July 2020 12: 13 New
      +1
      Quote: NEXUS
      Easy to criticize

      That's right!
      But remember and analyze, including errors, is necessary. That would not be allowed in the future. The military and political leaders had personal errors and incorrect systemic actions ... They had to pay a great price for them ...
      Но иное дело, что многие "иноагенты"к ним примкнувшие по своей "простототе" граждане сочиняют другой раз гнусные инсинуации про того же Г.К.Жукова и иных полководцев времен войны.
      But this has nothing to do with history, it is a political struggle against Russia, they say, what kind of civilized state it could be if there were such leaders and did this ....
    4. smaug78
      smaug78 3 July 2020 12: 14 New
      +3
      And what is Isaev criticizing Zhukov about?
      1. figwam
        figwam 3 July 2020 12: 32 New
        +6
        How do people manage in five minutes to watch a video of 1 hour 20 minutes and scribble condemning comments?
        1. zenion
          zenion 3 July 2020 12: 53 New
          -4
          In order to understand that the egg is spoiled - it is not necessary to eat it.
          1. figwam
            figwam 3 July 2020 13: 00 New
            +5
            Quote: zenion
            In order to understand that the egg is spoiled - it is not necessary to eat it.

            I did not look, but I condemn)))
          2. smaug78
            smaug78 3 July 2020 13: 17 New
            +4
            In order to understand that the egg is spoiled - it is not necessary to eat it.

            "Why did he introduce tank armies, which eventually clogged all the roads." Alexey Isaev considers this reproach to be unfair and brings his arguments to this effect.
            So, Isaev is wrong and tank armies clogged the road?
        2. NEXUS
          NEXUS 3 July 2020 13: 26 New
          -7
          Quote: figvam
          How do people manage in five minutes to watch a video of 1 hour 20 minutes and scribble condemning comments?

          Didn’t come up with a simple and elementary idea that a person watched this video before this video appeared on VO?
          Very basic thought, don’t you?
          1. mat-vey
            mat-vey 4 July 2020 05: 51 New
            +2
            "Очень элементарная мысль,не находите?"
            If you watch the video and then read your commentary, such an idea does not occur ...
    5. Dr. Frankenstucker
      Dr. Frankenstucker 3 July 2020 12: 26 New
      +5
      Publication - 10.51
      Comment - 10.57

      You, sorry, watched the rewind watch in 6 minutes?
      That you expressed about Isaev
      Quote: NEXUS
      What is not a frame, then an expert. It would be there in the 45th, and better in the 41st ... I

      ?
    6. bya965
      bya965 3 July 2020 16: 55 New
      0
      Isaev is the best. And he is a historian, not a military man. I would advise everyone to listen and watch and read.
      I put a minus.
    7. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 4 July 2020 10: 53 New
      +1
      I do not know to cry or laugh! Traffic jams in Berlin? So the Wehrmacht for congestion on the roads in the Addenins of the 45th must betray obstruction !!!!!!!!! laughing
      Ours at least won, but the Germans got rid of under complete bad luck !!!!
  2. Courier
    Courier 3 July 2020 11: 09 New
    -22
    The storming of Berlin was worth giving to the Americans. They just killed the soldiers. Anyway, then the city was divided into different zones of occupation.
    1. avg
      avg 3 July 2020 11: 33 New
      +6
      Now everyone would surely know that the Americans had defeated and knocked out the combined forces of Russians and Nazis from Berlin, and we, in a malicious rage, dropped a bomb on Hiroshima in revenge.
      1. tihonmarine
        tihonmarine 3 July 2020 11: 54 New
        +2
        Quote: avg
        Now everyone would surely know that the Americans had defeated and knocked out the combined forces of Russians and Nazis from Berlin, and we, in a malicious rage, dropped a bomb on Hiroshima in revenge.

        It will take several years, thanks to propaganda and the media, the whole Western world will think that it was.
        1. Lipchanin
          Lipchanin 3 July 2020 12: 09 New
          +2
          Quote: tihonmarine
          It will take several years, thanks to propaganda and the media, the whole Western world will think that it was.

          Ну в японии уже давно "знают", что атомную бомбу сбросил СССР
          1. Dr. Frankenstucker
            Dr. Frankenstucker 3 July 2020 12: 18 New
            -3
            Quote: Lipchanin
            Ну в японии уже давно "знают", что атомную бомбу сбросил СССР

            where does this information come from?
            OBS?
            1. Lipchanin
              Lipchanin 3 July 2020 12: 22 New
              +2
              Quote: Dr. Frankenshtuzer
              OBS?

              Not. They wrote about this under the USSR
              1. Dr. Frankenstucker
                Dr. Frankenstucker 3 July 2020 12: 23 New
                -4
                Who wrote? Japanese during the USSR?
                1. Lipchanin
                  Lipchanin 3 July 2020 12: 30 New
                  -2
                  Quote: Dr. Frankenshtuzer
                  Who wrote? Japanese during the USSR?

                  Soviet newspapers wrote about it.
                  Which, I don’t remember. Time you know a lot has passed
                  1. Dr. Frankenstucker
                    Dr. Frankenstucker 3 July 2020 12: 50 New
                    0
                    Soviet newspapers, of course, were not a model of reliable information, but they did not write such a game. The fact of the atomic bombing of Japan by the States was never questioned by the Japanese, and they never accused the USSR of this. That would be idiocy. The ignorance of modern youth should not be presented as the official position of the education system. With us, half of the young people hardly name facts and milestones related to WWII. Japanese youth is no exception.
                    1. Lipchanin
                      Lipchanin 3 July 2020 12: 55 New
                      0
                      Quote: Dr. Frankenshtuzer
                      but they didn’t write such a game

                      They wrote. I read it myself
                      The fact of the atomic bombing of Japan by the States has never been challenged by the Japanese,

                      Officially no
                      The ignorance of modern youth should not be presented as the official position of the education system.

                      So I'm talking about the fact that young people through the media and drive it into the head
          2. tihonmarine
            tihonmarine 3 July 2020 13: 39 New
            -1
            Quote: Lipchanin
            Ну в японии уже давно "знают", что атомную бомбу сбросил СССР

            A drop in education, a close-sighted outlook, constant propaganda, everything leads to a curvature of the brain. Social networks and television have now twisted these brains, how many young people are now reading documentary and historical literature. Maxim reads people about the world history of wars according to the Harper Encyclopedia of Military History R.E. Dupuis and T.N. Dupuis, in which all wars fit into several pages.
          3. Free wind
            Free wind 3 July 2020 16: 31 New
            +1
            They don’t know, there are many museums on this subject, and since childhood, the Japanese know who dropped bombs on them.
            1. Dr. Frankenstucker
              Dr. Frankenstucker 3 July 2020 18: 34 New
              -2
              Да ясное дело, Ветер. Единожды смороженную кем-то фигню радостно подхватили, и вот уже извольте - 'японцы уверены, что атомную бомбу бросил СССР'.
      2. BIABIA
        BIABIA 3 July 2020 12: 32 New
        +1
        Yeah. So I imagine a striped flag over the Reichstag. Soldiers Michael and John hoisted the banner ..... ugh ....
    2. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 3 July 2020 11: 47 New
      +2
      Quote: Courier

      The storming of Berlin was worth giving to the Americans.

      Те бы проще брали Берлин, подняли в воздух 1000 "летающих крепостей" и бомбили бы две недели днём и ночью, пока никого живого не осталось бы.
      1. Dr. Frankenstucker
        Dr. Frankenstucker 3 July 2020 12: 22 New
        -1
        Quote: tihonmarine
        and they would bomb for two weeks, day and night, until no one was left alive.

        well, right. Moreover, the tactics of the fiery tornado worked out in Dresden.
        1. tihonmarine
          tihonmarine 3 July 2020 13: 42 New
          0
          Quote: Dr. Frankenshtuzer
          Moreover, the tactics of the fiery tornado worked out in Dresden.

          And on the islands of the Pacific. On the military side, this is more reasonable.
    3. To be or not to be
      To be or not to be 3 July 2020 12: 02 New
      +3
      So the Americans just drifted to take it
      "Американцы, почти не встречая сопротивления, форсировали Рейн, и у западных союзников появился шанс войти в Берлин раньше нас.
      On April 11-12, 1945, the Americans went to the Elbe and captured several bridgeheads on its eastern shore.
      W. Churchill demanded from the Commander-in-Chief of the Allied Forces General D. Eisenhower (future President of the United States) without hesitation to go to Berlin.
      But after analyzing the situation and assessing his possible losses - about 100000 people, D. Eisenhower decided that it was “too high a price for a prestigious goal, especially considering that we then have to step back and give way to other guys”, bearing in mind that part of Berlin, in accordance with the agreements, will still have to be ceded to the Soviet Union. ”

      28 марта 1945 года он направляет послание И. Сталину, в котором сообщает , что не придает Берлину стратегического значения и отказывается от намерения его штурмовать, что в его планы входит окружение и разгром немецких войск, оборонявших Рур, а также изоляция данного района от остальной части Германии."https://flot.com/blog/piton56/-o-mifakh-i-fantaziyakh-istorika-aisaeva-o-shturme-zeelovskikh-vysot.php
    4. antivirus
      antivirus 3 July 2020 12: 08 New
      -1
      It is better to divide Kiyev with RB in 24 g
    5. Paranoid50
      Paranoid50 4 July 2020 20: 39 New
      -1
      Quote: Courier
      The storming of Berlin was worth giving to the Americans.

      There, hungry people are waiting for their orders, while someone on the Internet climbs. am They’ll get fired, and there won’t be any money for the Internet. yes
  3. mag nit
    mag nit 3 July 2020 11: 15 New
    -3
    "Военный историк" откосивший от службы в армии.
    1. Dr. Frankenstucker
      Dr. Frankenstucker 3 July 2020 13: 46 New
      +1
      what's the connection
  4. Lipchanin
    Lipchanin 3 July 2020 11: 21 New
    +5
    "Why did he introduce tank armies, which eventually clogged all the roads"

    Traffic jams arranged. Wow, people were late for work.
    As soon as possible after 75 years, not owning the full information, seeing the war only on TV, write such Nonsense !!!
    1. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 3 July 2020 11: 59 New
      +3
      Quote: Lipchanin
      As soon as possible after 75 years, not owning the full information, seeing the war only on TV, write such Nonsense !!!

      There is such an amazing thing, SOFA called. With him, all the strategists are newly made, all the world battles plan and always win. Where to Zhukov, Rokossovsky, Manstein and Guderian.
      1. Lipchanin
        Lipchanin 3 July 2020 12: 01 New
        0
        Quote: tihonmarine
        There is such an amazing thing, SOFA called. With him, all the strategists are newly made, all the world battles plan and always win.

        1. tihonmarine
          tihonmarine 3 July 2020 13: 18 New
          +3
          The sofa should be old-fashioned, washed under the body, comfortable, then this is a real sofa, and it is not a shame for guests to show their working sofa.
          1. Lipchanin
            Lipchanin 3 July 2020 13: 21 New
            0
            Судя по всему, это диван "ветеран" и принадлежит не меньше чем "генералисимусу диванных войн"
            1. 2 Level Advisor
              2 Level Advisor 3 July 2020 14: 22 New
              0
              Yes, this sofa has passed more than one battle and burned more than once on a campaign))) on its pedestal!
              1. Lipchanin
                Lipchanin 3 July 2020 14: 26 New
                0
                First there will be laughing
      2. Dr. Frankenstucker
        Dr. Frankenstucker 3 July 2020 13: 09 New
        +2
        Quote: tihonmarine
        With him, all the strategists are newly minted, all world battles plan and always win. Where to Zhukov, Rokossovsky, Manstein and Guderian.


        Personally, Isaev inspires respect. It’s not fair to apply your sofa fantasies to him, to put it mildly, do not you think?
        1. tihonmarine
          tihonmarine 3 July 2020 13: 27 New
          0
          Quote: Dr. Frankenshtuzer
          Personally, Isaev inspires respect.

          Я тоже к Алексею Исаеву отношусь с уважением, у него много достойных видеороликов об истории ВМВ, но не один он занимается историей, и много таких, что и историками тяжело назвать, а они пытаются своё донести до наших ушей. Вот они то и есть "диванные". Хотя вот этот ролик, меня просто не впечатлил.
    2. Hagen
      Hagen 3 July 2020 11: 59 New
      +4
      Quote: Lipchanin
      Traffic jams arranged. Wow, people were late for work.

      Actually, Zhukov Chuikov reproached with traffic jams. The same is not the last soldier of that war. And it’s better to watch the video. Isaev, in my opinion, is a rather corrosive historian. It is interesting and very instructive to read. One problem for all writing historians is that they do not like to put maps on a digestible scale to their books.
      1. Lipchanin
        Lipchanin 3 July 2020 12: 11 New
        -1
        Quote: Hagen
        Actually, Zhukov Chuikov reproached with traffic jams.

        And where was he in a hurry past Berlin?
        1. Hagen
          Hagen 3 July 2020 15: 39 New
          +2
          Quote: Lipchanin
          And where was he in a hurry past Berlin?

          If you mean Chuikov, then he was in no hurry, just becoming a marshal, he often criticized Zhukov, considering himself smarter.
  5. TAMBU
    TAMBU 3 July 2020 11: 31 New
    +2
    ничего себе тут "эксперты" понабежали...
    if that is today one of the leading specialists in the Second World War in our country. But in order to understand why such a heading is needed to start watching the video ... but apparently nobody needs it here ... n not to drag bags ...
    1. Dr. Frankenstucker
      Dr. Frankenstucker 3 July 2020 12: 56 New
      +2
      Quote: TAMBU
      But in order to understand why such a headline is necessary to start to see the video ...

      That's it) But this obvious thing somehow passed by the commentators. All fell upon Isaev. Maybe TSa is to blame - it was necessary to annotate the video in a different way)
      1. Paranoid50
        Paranoid50 4 July 2020 20: 42 New
        0
        Quote: Dr. Frankenshtuzer
        Everyone fell upon Isaev

        laughing Yes, local residents have a competition on the subject of the one who is faster and more stupid to press and scandal - savages. laughing
  6. prior
    prior 3 July 2020 11: 49 New
    -3
    After scratching your tongue after 75 years, this is not for you to take Berlin in the 45th.
  7. alone
    alone 3 July 2020 11: 50 New
    +1
    There were no other options. In the West, the Germans practically did not resist .. There was a danger that the Allies could reach Berlin earlier .. Here it was necessary to throw all tank armies to a breakthrough. Without this decision, Berlin would simply be taken by the Allies .. to be 60 km from the den and miss the opportunity to take it - this is not forgiven
    1. Lipchanin
      Lipchanin 3 July 2020 12: 04 New
      -3
      Quote: lonely
      .That had to throw all tank armies on a breakthrough.

      A very long time ago, when I was still in school, I heard that Zhukov was offering Stalin not to stop, but to go to Lamanche.
      Maybe a rumor, but what I heard, I heard request
      1. Dr. Frankenstucker
        Dr. Frankenstucker 3 July 2020 13: 11 New
        0
        Quote: Lipchanin
        A very long time ago, when I was still in school, I heard that Zhukov was offering Stalin not to stop, but to go to Lamanche.


        да уж, какого бреда на кухнях от взрослых ни наслушаешься. Это даже не "слух", а какая-то больная фантазия.
        1. Lipchanin
          Lipchanin 3 July 2020 13: 17 New
          -1
          Quote: Dr. Frankenshtuzer
          yeah, what nonsense in the kitchens from adults or hear enough.

          Well then, I was just a boy and believed in adults
          Это даже не "слух", а какая-то больная фантазия.

          It was in the early 60s and there were many lively front-line soldiers.
          And all such things were told by them.
          And all such rumors were born in the trenches
          1. Dr. Frankenstucker
            Dr. Frankenstucker 3 July 2020 13: 28 New
            +1
            Quote: Lipchanin
            And all such rumors were born in the trenches

            about the English Channel? In the trenches?
            NDA ....
            1. Lipchanin
              Lipchanin 3 July 2020 13: 36 New
              -3
              Quote: Dr. Frankenshtuzer
              about the English Channel? In the trenches?
              NDA ....

              I repeat
              And all such HEARING born in the trenches

              This rumor is quite possible and not from a trench.
              Then the war veterans believed in the word. For me, my grandfather was an authority. He believed unconditionally.
              Now you can twist the sponge
              Это даже не "слух", а какая-то больная фантазия.

              about the English Channel? In the trenches?
              NDA ....

              And in those days, for such a thing they beat
              1. Dr. Frankenstucker
                Dr. Frankenstucker 3 July 2020 13: 42 New
                +1
                Quote: Lipchanin
                And in those days, for such a thing they beat

                what is it for?
  8. kartalovkolya
    kartalovkolya 3 July 2020 11: 56 New
    0
    "Каждый мнит себя стратегом,видя бой со стороны"-это великий грузинский поэт сказал ну прямо для нонешних эксперДов!!!
    1. Dr. Frankenstucker
      Dr. Frankenstucker 3 July 2020 13: 12 New
      0
      Quote: kartalovkolya
      this is the great Georgian poet said well, right for the current experts !!!


      Are you talking about Isaev?
      Give a reference to your historical work, please.
      How long have you been printing?
  9. stalkerwalker
    stalkerwalker 3 July 2020 12: 08 New
    +2
    I recognize eminent experts and experts by the instant and inadequate reaction to the video.
    Как и всегда, не было приведено ни одного факта, опровергающего слова А. Исаева, но сколько эмоций и словословий, для поднятия собственного "эго".
    "Верным путём, идёте, товарищи!"
    good
  10. smaug78
    smaug78 3 July 2020 12: 16 New
    0
    Judging by the comments, most of them wrote here: dyslexic, deaf couch historians laughing
  11. tihonmarine
    tihonmarine 3 July 2020 12: 31 New
    -1
    Today, one of the topics most discussed in this context is the topic related to the storming of the capital of Nazi Germany by Soviet troops
    Эту тему обсудили и поставили окончательную точку наши отцы и деды 9 мая 1945 года. Точка называется "Окончательная и безоговорочная капитуляция Германии". Обсуждать больше ничего не нужно, за нас это сделали наши отцы штурмом взяв Берлин. Теперь можно орать визжать, но над Рейхстагом поднят красный флаг Союза Советских Социалистических Республик, и поднят Советскими солдатами.
    1. Dr. Frankenstucker
      Dr. Frankenstucker 3 July 2020 13: 16 New
      -1
      Quote: tihonmarine
      There is no need to discuss anything else, for our fathers did this by storm taking Berlin.


      не обсуждайте, делов-то, если для Вас лично все темы закрыты "дедами". К чему навязывать? Есть история, есть интерпретации тех или иных фактов и событий, есть разные мнения, есть дискутабельные темы. Что не так? Зачем этот пафосный жупел?
  12. Brigadier
    Brigadier 3 July 2020 12: 38 New
    +1
    «Tank armies clogged roads to Berlin»

    What kind of eksperd are not in a network ...
    According to their ideas, all our tanks should have been left on the Soviet-Polish border and further attacked exclusively by infantry units with a couple - three or forty support ...

    Where do such exPerds come from? belay negative angry
    1. Dr. Frankenstucker
      Dr. Frankenstucker 3 July 2020 13: 32 New
      -3
      Quote: Brigadier
      Where do such exPerds come from?

      I'm more interested in - where do those who do not read further from the heading / look at the material come from, but scribble rather silly comments.
  13. zenion
    zenion 3 July 2020 12: 51 New
    +1
    Take care of the lives of soldiers. When the Germans came to the USSR they were not worried about the lives of citizens who fell into occupation, Hitler was worried about them. The fewer Russians will be the better, for this, any methods are good.
    1. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 3 July 2020 13: 53 New
      +1
      Quote: zenion
      When the Germans came to the USSR, they were not worried about the lives of citizens who fell into occupation, Hitler was worried about them.

      Stalingrad and Kharkov were almost completely destroyed, and with the Nazi cities it was not necessary to stand on ceremony very much, we did not come to them with the war.
  14. Prisoner
    Prisoner 3 July 2020 13: 10 New
    0
    "Каждый мнит себя стратегом, видя бой со стороны..." (с) Всю эту байду несут люди, которые, в подавляющем большинстве, даже взводом, не то что в бою, на учениях не командовали.
  15. Vdi73
    Vdi73 3 July 2020 13: 46 New
    0
    The critics of our commanders and strategists on the Second World War divorced, it’s a pity you weren’t there, otherwise you would have shown your military talent, but actually thank God that you were not there
  16. iouris
    iouris 3 July 2020 14: 31 New
    -1
    The Americans took Berlin with little blood, without clogging the road with tank armies (this will be written in the history textbook).
    1. Ros 56
      Ros 56 3 July 2020 15: 28 New
      -2
      I would send the current history textbooks to the furnace, take the Soviet ones and add the latest history to them over the past 30-35 years.
  17. Ros 56
    Ros 56 3 July 2020 15: 24 New
    -2
    A good one raised the question, and most importantly, very on time. But by the way, as a hint for the future, why not.
  18. norkin
    norkin 5 July 2020 11: 23 New
    -1
    he is a historian, not a boxer! if there is a desire to box, then contact me, but rather to my son, he’s easier and the blow is a little weaker