Military Review

What is the A-545 submachine gun superior to Izhevsk AK-12

146

Photo of the plant named after V. A. Degtyarev


July 1, 2020 RIA "News”With reference to its sources in the Russian military-industrial complex reported that in Kovrov at the famous plant named after Degtyarev (ZiD), the process of serial production of the new Russian machine gun A-545 (GRAU index 6P67) began. This 5,45 mm assault rifle was developed in Kovrov as part of the work to create a small weapons for a set of Russian military equipment “Ratnik”.

Kovrov assault rifles A-545 and A-762 (chambered for 7,62x39 mm) are often called competitors for the AK-12 and AK-15. However, the Izhevsk and Kovrov machine guns have different specializations, each of them has its own niche in the Russian armed forces. If Kalashnikov traditionally remains the main small arms of linear units, the Kovrov assault rifles are intended primarily for arming the soldiers of army special forces and special services.

The main advantage of the A-545 over the AK-12


In Kovrov, new submachine guns for 5,45-mm and 7,62-mm cartridges are called the successors of the balanced submachine guns created on the ZiD in the 1980s. Due to the wide access to new materials, as well as the capabilities of modern technologies and industry, a factory in the Vladimir region managed to develop a line of balanced machines with new qualities. The main advantages of the A-545 assault rifle in Kovrov include the best fire accuracy, improved ergonomics that meet the requirements of the XNUMXst century, and a higher rate of fire of weapons.

Both assault rifles, both A-545 and AK-12, underwent full-fledged military tests and were eventually adopted. But the models have their own characteristics, which make two new Russian automatic machines unique. At the same time, the military has no questions about the reliability of models. Both machines have passed the test with dignity. As noted in Kovrov, the A-545 and A-762 assault rifles are in no way inferior to their competitors from Izhevsk.


Photo of the plant named after V. A. Degtyarev

The reliability of the machines created in the Vladimir region and in Udmurtia is comparable. According to this criterion, the A-545 is in no way inferior to the updated model of the Kalashnikov assault rifle. Both machines were tested including in difficult operating conditions in different weathers: in rain, in frost, in heat, in conditions of severe dust. They threw the machine and onto the concrete floor, simulating accidental falls and possible overloads. The weapon withstood all "bullying" over itself and worked flawlessly.

The main advantage of the Kovrov automatic A-545 over Izhevsk AK-12 is the accuracy of fire. It is for this indicator that the A-545 outperforms its competitor. The same applies to the model chambered for 7,62x39 mm, which is superior to the AK-15. They were able to increase the accuracy of firing in Kovrov thanks to the balanced automation scheme implemented in the model, which is considered the main “feature” of Kovrov’s weapons. Back in the 1970s, this scheme was proposed by Viktor Tkachov, who is an employee of TsNIItochmash.

When firing Kalashnikovs, the arrow and the weapon itself are affected not only by the momentum of the shot, but also by the momentum from the moving parts of the bolt group of the machine. This translates into the fact that the barrel of the weapon when shooting noticeably leads away. In machine guns designed in Kovrov, the recoil momentum is effectively suppressed by the use of a special counterweight balancer, which, after firing, starts moving towards the bolt frame of the machine. This balanced automation on the A-545 model is especially good when firing in short bursts.

Officers who tested the Kovrov machine gun distinguish its accuracy when firing from unstable positions. Thanks to this, the weapons of Kovrov’s gunsmiths are excellent for solving combat missions in buildings and in urban environments, when it is not known exactly where the enemy might seem from. Experts also highlight the A-545 sights in the form of a mechanical diopter sight. For domestic models of small arms, this is an unusual solution, an ordinary open sight is installed on the AK. At the same time, experts believe that weapons with a diopter sight, although it requires some preparation from the shooter, are more accurate in operation.


A-545: weapons are not for everyone


Because of its characteristics, the new machine gun from Kovrov is not a weapon for everyone. It is more difficult to manufacture and more expensive than Kalashnikov. That is why the Russian military did not initially plan to equip conventional military units with a new Kovrov machine gun, often consisting of conscripts. This weapon has its own niche today: special forces units, scouts, and fighters of various special forces.

Izhevsk AK-12 will remain the mass Russian machine gun. There is no tragedy in this. The Kalashnikov assault rifle is widely known in Russia to almost everyone. It is able to disassemble and assemble any student who did not skip lessons OBZH. But for the proper operation of the A-545, a more trained contingent is needed. An important point is that Russian industry has long been familiar with all the nuances of manufacturing a Kalashnikov assault rifle, its production technology is well mastered and allows mass production to be established in a very limited time in case of war.

Moreover, in some sources today you can find evidence that the AK-12 is more effective than the A-545 when firing at a distance of more than 300 meters. This is achieved through more efficient firing of single rounds from the Izhevsk assault rifle. Whereas the Kovrov models are superior to the Izhevsk ones in the accuracy of automatic fire at a distance of up to 300 meters. At greater distances, burst shooting is no longer so effective. In any case, the presence of two modern assault rifles that have undergone state tests and have been put into service increases variability, making it possible to equip units with weapons that are more suitable for solving specific combat missions.

The difficult fate of machines from Kovrov


Both Kovrov assault rifles, which were adopted by the Russian army, went a very complicated and thorny path from the idea to implementation and subsequent adoption. The real progenitor of the A-545 assault rifle is the AEK-971 assault rifle developed in the Soviet Union (a single Koksharov assault rifle). This model of small arms was developed by carpet weavers in 1978.

The AEK-971 submachine gun, designed by Stanislav Ivanovich Koksharov, was developed in Kovrov to participate in a competition announced by the USSR Ministry of Defense. The competition involved the creation of a new combined arms machine and remained in stories codenamed "Abakan." The main requirement of the military for the new machine gun was to increase the accuracy of fire in comparison with the AK-74 machine gun in service. The accuracy and accuracy of firing from an assault rifle created within the framework of the Abakan ROC was required to be increased by 1,5–2 times compared with the Kalashnikov assault rifle, especially when firing from so-called unstable positions.


Automatic machine AEK-971

In the second half of the 1980s, military preference was given to the machine gun of the design of Gennady Nikolayevich Nikonov - AN-94. Despite this, work on the new machine gun in Kovrov was continued. At the same time, the designers simplified the AEK-971, since many innovations in the Ministry of Defense were perceived as unnecessary for such automatic weapons. The machine was modified several times, minor changes were made to the design. AEK-971 was produced in small batches until 2006, the main customer of the machine was various Russian power services.

They fully returned to the machine only in 2012, when work began on the creation of a complex of small arms for the new Russian set of combat equipment “Ratnik”. As in 1978, the A-545 was created to participate in the competition for a new combined-arms machine. The first models were handed over to the military for military trials in 2014. According to experts, the new A-545 assault rifle differed from the base model primarily in the other receiver design (a removable cover is present on the AEK-971 assault rifle). Another design of the receiver, which is fixed, allows you to install a Picatinny rail on the A-545 to accommodate a variety of sights (optical and collimator sights), and also allows you to position the fire mode switch on the left or right side of the machine.

As a result, in January 2018, the Ministry of Defense decided to adopt both the A-545 assault rifle and the AK-12 assault rifle, together with their modifications in 7,62 mm caliber. The Kovrov machine gun A-545 received the GRAU 6P67 index, and its 7,62 mm version - 6P68. According to the source of RIA Novosti, in Kovrov, the 6P67 assault rifle is already being manufactured under a contract signed with the Russian Ministry of Defense. But how many machine guns the Russian military ordered is currently unknown. It is only known that the Ministry of Defense previously announced its plans to supply new small arms to the Airborne Forces by the end of 2020. Among the new products mentioned were 5,45 mm 6P67 submachine guns.
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  1. Pessimist22
    Pessimist22 3 July 2020 05: 57
    17
    Shoot from both machines of series A and express their opinion of a specialist from the sofa).
    1. The leader of the Redskins
      The leader of the Redskins 3 July 2020 06: 24
      +5
      That's for sure ... I read and read about them, but I couldn’t hold them in my hands ...
    2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 3 July 2020 06: 24
      +1
      Shot from the AN-96! To be honest, the feeling of "unusual." You hold in your hands, ask the price, shoot. It seems comfortable, but something is wrong. Maybe because of the store!
      Regards, Vlad!
      1. Insurgent
        Insurgent 3 July 2020 09: 51
        +1
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        Shot from the AN-96!

        From WHAT-O-O ? belay
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 3 July 2020 11: 02
          +6
          (AN-94) Nikonov assault rifle 1994. Mistaken in the figure, wrote from memory. He shot in 1998 and 2004 at a training ground near Khomutovsky. Confused by the weight distribution and the store at an angle. The machine is more precisely AK-74M. Assembly, disassembly is more difficult, but not critical.
          1. Insurgent
            Insurgent 3 July 2020 11: 16
            -3
            Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
            Assembly, disassembly is more difficult, but not critical.

            When operating in real conditions, when sometimes a weapon - a solid ball of clay - is critical, and how.
            A system of cables, rollers, springs, a fire monitor system ...

            1. Passing
              Passing 3 July 2020 13: 48
              23
              Quote: Insurgent
              sometimes weapons are a solid ball of clay

              I’m interested in the opinion of a practitioner, how often do you clean and disassemble Kalash right in the middle of a meter deep puddle, certainly shoving stones and clay inside?
              1. Insurgent
                Insurgent 3 July 2020 13: 59
                11
                Quote: Passing by
                I’m interested in the opinion of a practitioner, how often do you clean and disassemble Kalash right in the middle of a meter deep puddle, certainly shoving stones and clay inside?

                Now it’s not, and specifically until the end of 2019, and often had to.
                Either zadzhit, and the trenches are like canals in that Venice, where you "wrap up" in the bustle, in the dark, or simply "dive" during shelling, then dry land, and the PKK strives to pour dust and pebbles from the parapet. I also had to plug the barrel with a filter from the "bull", despite the prohibitions in the instructions ...
                There was a case when a fighter "chvaknuvshis" AK in a slurry, on "disposition", just from a hose, without hesitation wassat water pressure, removing the cover just washed the swamp.

                Shook out the water, and all the cleaning ..
                1. Passing
                  Passing 3 July 2020 14: 08
                  0
                  Got it, accepted it. My experience is completely different, I was more on space rockets, and therefore it still seemed to me that the situation with the dirt on my eyebrow was somewhat contrived.
                  And in this regard, the A-545 also does not look very good in this regard, due to the very difficult access inside the receiver. Although I personally am an ardent fan of the A-545, but this is its obvious minus.
                  1. Serg koma
                    Serg koma 5 July 2020 19: 52
                    0
                    Quote: Passing by
                    And in this regard, the A-545 also does not look very good in this regard, due to the very difficult access inside the receiver. Although I personally am an ardent fan of the A-545, but this is its obvious minus.

                    SVT and Mosinka = A-545 and AK-12 perception in combined arms units.
                    Where there were more trained and technically competent fighters, SVT was appreciated. Where the less trained - a simpler weapon, "three-line".
                    Probably a very competent decision - to use a cheaper and simpler weapon to equip a mobile call (in which case), and an expensive one - to specialists. Pupils at NVP will master the AK, and they will rub special calluses in the training on A-545, and both contingents (conscripts and specialists) in any conditions without looking will dismantle / assemble their personal weapons.
                2. ProkletyiPirat
                  ProkletyiPirat 3 July 2020 15: 45
                  +4
                  Well, let’s say frankly, any weapon can be trashed, either by lack of brain or by accident, but the carriage is not a reason to abandon the weapon, because the carriage is different, and the designer, in theory, can provide for the protection and self-cleaning of the carriage, another question is it implemented in practice and if so how effective ...
                  1. Passing
                    Passing 3 July 2020 16: 34
                    +2
                    I must say right away that I would not be accused of bias, I respect the AN-94 much more than the A-545. But! It has the most structurally low resistance to dirt. Firstly ... no, not a cable, this is just a reliable unit, it has four movable units (A-545 has three, AK has two), and, therefore, exaggerating, four times more possibilities to jam. Secondly, and most importantly, he has a carriage. And this means that the barrel retains sighting after each cycle of work, the guide carriages must be precision. And this means - no huge backlash in the carriage guides, providing, along with the excess energy of the shutter frame, the legendary dirt-resistant AK. The AN-94, in principle, cannot have dirt resistance comparable to AK. But the A-545 can. In theory. Because its scheme can theoretically provide even greater redundancy of the energy of the shutter frame compared to AK, and the backlash can be large, the only node vulnerable to dirt is a gear.
                    1. ProkletyiPirat
                      ProkletyiPirat 3 July 2020 20: 54
                      -6
                      Quote: Passing by
                      It has the most structurally low resistance to dirt. Firstly ... no, not a cable, it’s just a reliable unit, he has four movable nodes (A-545 has three, AK has two), and, therefore, exaggerating, four times more opportunities to jam.

                      This is called "I am an engineer" or "I am an engineer! I even have a piece of paper! And it is red!" Are you ready to bet your money on the truth of this publicized statement about greater reliability when there are fewer parts?
                      For the future: the reliability of the assembly is determined not by the number of parts, not by materials, and not by the eminence of the engineer, but by design solutions, and it is measured (reliability) on bench testing machines, and not "on the collective farm with grandfather".
                      Quote: Passing by
                      Secondly, and most importantly, he has a gun carriage. And this means that the barrel retains sighting after each cycle of work, carriage guides must be precision.

                      nifiga this does not mean and nifiga not "should be", you can make a carriage with backlashes even in a millimeter, even in a centimeter, even in a meter, because carriages are different, there are simply under-engineers who knowing just a couple of options for carriages with foam at the mouth scream that no carriage in the world is suitable for infantry weapons. In general, personally, I would, if I were a gunsmith engineer, use the hanging lever and / or wedge stops (carriages), and oh my gosh, these same stops are already used in shutters wink (this is on the topic "such does not exist \ link to fikipedia \ name the weapon where it is used" and the like srachiki-holivars).
                      1. Passing
                        Passing 4 July 2020 00: 14
                        +8
                        Guess there’s a piece of paper.
                        Quote: ProkletyiPirat
                        We are ready to put money on the truth of this publicized statement about greater reliability when there are fewer details
                        Firstly, you are breaking into an open gate, in fact, I have always criticized this formula, believing that without adding "within the same technological and design level" it is incorrect. And as an example, he cited the reliability and resource of the primitive aircraft of the Wright brothers and the super-complex passenger Boeing. Second, how much to bet? For the machines under discussion are about the same technological level.
                        Quote: ProkletyiPirat
                        the reliability of the unit is determined not by the number of parts, not by materials, and not by the eminence of an engineer, but by constructive solutions

                        Horses mixed in a bunch, people ... O great guru, why do you have such a mess in your head?
                        For the future - you don’t need to dig into it in particular, they mask the essence, and the essence is simple - the reliability of a complex interconnected system is determined by the relationship of the probabilities of failure / malfunction of its constituent elements. If these elements work sequentially, as in the case of automatic mechanics, then the probabilities multiply. I’ll immediately draw attention to the fact that adding a second node with the same reliability, the reliability of the entire system does not fall at all twice, but on a floating value, from the initial reliability of the nodes, and can range from a fraction of a percent to at least a billion.
                        Quote: ProkletyiPirat
                        carriages are different

                        Who are you discussing with now, exactly with me? What is the difference what kind of carriages are, if my post says about a very specific one, implemented in the AN-94? And it is made in the form of precision grooves. Actually part of it is visible from the outside, look under the barrel.
                        Quote: ProkletyiPirat
                        I personally, would use the hanging lever and / or wedge stops (carriages)

                        Personally, I also came up with a lot of weapons topics, but only in my head. And I, unlike you, clearly understand that just a workable idea means little, a ticket to life (in the global historical sense) receives only the most optimal solution for a variety of factors.
            2. psiho117
              psiho117 4 July 2020 20: 46
              0
              Quote: Insurgent
              A system of cables, rollers, springs, a fire monitor system ...

              AN-94 passed ALL military tests in the USSR, and was recognized as not inferior in terms of reliability of operation in combat conditions of the AK-scheme.
              Everything, moderate your snobbery.
              The only critically weak point in terms of combat reliability is the diopter sight. For if the hole gets clogged, it will be bad. And not at all "rollers-cables". In general, cable rollers have never been torn or broken by anyone operating the AN-94.
              1. Doliva63
                Doliva63 4 July 2020 23: 03
                0
                Quote: psiho117
                Quote: Insurgent
                A system of cables, rollers, springs, a fire monitor system ...

                AN-94 passed ALL military tests in the USSR, and was recognized as not inferior in terms of reliability of operation in combat conditions of the AK-scheme.
                Everything, moderate your snobbery.
                The only critically weak point in terms of combat reliability is the diopter sight. For if the hole gets clogged, it will be bad. And not at all "rollers-cables". In general, cable rollers have never been torn or broken by anyone operating the AN-94.

                I also never liked the diopter (maybe just practice was not enough), but if you stick a fly at the clay in the clay - the result will be much different, or what?
                1. psiho117
                  psiho117 5 July 2020 03: 20
                  0
                  Quote: Doliva63
                  if you poke an AK fly into clay

                  The result is the same. Here are just a fly can be cleaned even with bare hands, if desired - and if it is frozen / withered, then pick out the nose of the cartridge.
                  You can’t clean a diopter like that.
      2. Boris ⁣ Shaver
        Boris ⁣ Shaver 3 July 2020 19: 57
        +1
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        ask the price, shoot

        And the Ministry of Defense asked the price, and continued to purchase AK as a mass barrel. I wonder how much cheaper?
    3. Alex 2020
      Alex 2020 3 July 2020 06: 42
      11
      I'm also not special, but I was lucky enough to hold and shoot from the AK12 and A545. Well, how to shoot ... 3 singles and 10 queues from each. According to my subjective feelings, the A545 is more comfortable, and it’s easier to shoot. The return is less than that of AK12, due to another action of automation. But the A545 is a little trickier to clean. The disassembly is about the same.
      1. Pessimist22
        Pessimist22 3 July 2020 10: 13
        +2
        Lucky for you, I used the last new AK74m back in 1995, it seemed to me much better in accuracy compared to the AKS74. Last year I was in Moscow, but I didn’t go either to Alabino or Zhukovsky, there wasn’t enough time.
  2. Ros 56
    Ros 56 3 July 2020 06: 33
    +6
    The main thing is that both be used to protect OUR country from different idiots from different states.
  3. Samara_63
    Samara_63 3 July 2020 08: 03
    -8
    AK sold Rogozin. It was not even considered at first, Kovrov was adopted as the basis, but Rogozin received the position
    1. good
      good 4 July 2020 00: 36
      0
      Can I have a document on this topic? :)
  4. Samara_63
    Samara_63 3 July 2020 08: 05
    -9
    Yes, and return the three-ruler to the troops, it is very simple for an illiterate population, which is already there
    1. polar fox
      polar fox 3 July 2020 08: 39
      19
      Quote: Samara_63
      Yes, and return the three-ruler to the troops, it is very simple for an illiterate population, which is already there

      nothing in vain ... modern conscripts are much dumber than those that were 30 years ago ...
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 3 July 2020 11: 23
        +5
        Quote: polar fox
        Quote: Samara_63
        Yes, and return the three-ruler to the troops, it is very simple for an illiterate population, which is already there

        nothing in vain ... modern conscripts are much dumber than those that were 30 years ago ...

        Well, it's you in vain! Basic AK skills can be obtained in six months. Further practice.
        For the rest, I don’t know. According to army officers in the 90s there was generally a “priest”. Now other people are joining the army - most after universities, many with desire. In general, the age of conscription has grown. The 18-year-old “burdock” is better trained, but behind it is like a “telecom eye and eye”. 22 year old “burdock” is inert, foolish, but literate at the same time! On the roof with a broom "to disperse the obstacles will not climb." At the same time, he is lazy, but he will wind up the mountains to slope away from hardships and deprivations of service. In this connection, we are predictable and manageable.
        Words are not mine! In general, the army team complain about the training of average officers in universities. "Below the baseboard" !!!
        I’ll pay attention, this is the opinion of the army, not the Russian Guard! In the latter, the variable composition is trite, then “mate”.
        Then they feed them with pipettes and endure the snot, they tear them like giddy goats, at the level of the old adage “we carry round, square we drive”. In a word, "they have a bad", "they don’t paint the tar, but" !!! "
        In the local riot police, the exhaust pipe was repainted three times !!! And these are not conscripts, but fighters with a “long experience” of 5 years and above !!! Tomorrow is the bathing day, I’ll be laughing again, “what color is the pipe today” !!!?
        1. Grim Reaper
          Grim Reaper 5 July 2020 09: 40
          +1
          Basic skills for any type of "personal" weapon can be obtained in a day or two. But "basic", which does not help in any way.
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 5 July 2020 10: 09
            +2
            Quote: Grim Reaper
            Basic skills for any type of "personal" weapon can be obtained in a day or two. But "basic", which does not help in any way.

            We put different meanings in the very concept of “basic skills”!
            Regards, Vlad!
      2. English tarantas
        English tarantas 4 July 2020 12: 40
        +1
        It’s not that conscripts are dumber, but who selects dumb people for conscription. I am more than sure that the modern student did not skip the life safety program, as it was mentioned in the article, the A-545 will cope with just spitting. Since everyone has a modern mobile phone, they have a computer, they have a driver’s license and everyone understands it. And it was always possible to find oak, but why assemble an army from them. Throughout the annoying USSR, there were many more conscripts than now, what is the problem throughout Russia to find 400-500 thousand non-stupid people every year?
    2. Passing
      Passing 3 July 2020 13: 57
      -1
      I, too, "admire" the modern thesis of effective managers that it is senseless and even harmful to give expensive and complex weapons to a conscript. But people who are really worth something, who won the hardest war, believed exactly the opposite - it is the conscript who needs to be given a very expensive, high-tech, conceptually advanced and therefore effective weapon. Because it was the "conscript" who dragged out that war. Not special forces, not the elite, but a simple Vanya of seven classes of education. And they gave him an AK.
      1. PilotS37
        PilotS37 3 July 2020 22: 52
        +3
        Quote: Passing by
        Because it was the "conscript" who dragged out that war. Not special forces, not the elite, but a simple Vanya of seven classes of education. And they gave him an AK.

        Colleague, what kind of grass do you smoke in the morning? (I want one too!)
        AK in "that war" was not yet! - There was "Mosinka" and PPSh (with PPD and PPS).
        It was "Mosinka" that was the main weapon of the Soviet infantry in 1941 ... 45. There were also many PPShs, but they were mainly armed with assault groups (and it was not much inferior to the "three-line" in simplicity). But the much more progressive SVT "people" somehow "did not enter" ("Fight yourself, comrade!").
        So "simple Vanya of seven years of education" pulled "that war" just with the simplest weapon in his hands.
        Yes, and AK - and this is universally recognized - is a very simple weapon (compared to direct competitors, of course).
        1. Passing
          Passing 4 July 2020 01: 11
          +1
          I want to please you, you don’t need my grass, and without that, you think a dash is what.wink I seem to have written very specifically that people win the war gave the conscript AK. What can you misunderstand?
          Quote: PilotS37
          So that "a simple Vanya of seven years of education" pulled "that war" just with the simplest weapon in his hands.

          So what? You might think during the war there was an alternative to the compelled concept of the simplest weapon possible. SVT is not indicative at all. Even if it worked like a clock, a mass production would be extremely unlikely, because it did not give any fundamental advantages over Mosinka, but it was very expensive.
          When the war was won, smart people asked how it happened, what happened, and how to make it so that, if again, it works out much better. And they came to various conclusions. And one of the conclusions was AK for conscripts. And AK, compared to Mosinka, PPSh, PPS, is a super-high tech. Technologically very laborious, one milled !!! receiver what it was worth. And therefore fabulously dear. Even much more expensive than fabulously, for he had a new cartridge. And all this in a dilapidated economy. Nothing was spared for conscript weapons. Just the glaring antipode of the wartime concept of super cheap and most technologically advanced small arms. But, they believed that it was necessary only in this way, and nothing else. The war taught.
          1. English tarantas
            English tarantas 4 July 2020 12: 53
            +2
            SVT gave a very big advantage over VM. You yourself think in the heat of battle, you need to take the second shot from the mosquito after a miss, you need to tear your hand off the trigger, remove the rifle from the sighting line, reload it with the handle and return it as it was, and charge the new store, either one at a time or squeeze the clip. In the case of SVT, for the second shot, you just need to press the trigger again, and the store is detachable. SVT gives a very high density of fire.
            And therefore fabulously dear. Even much more expensive than fabulously, for he had a new cartridge. And all this in a dilapidated economy.

            Well not fabulously, but yes more expensive.
            What a dilapidated economy? The military-industrial complex of the USSR in the aftermath of the war worked at tremendous power and produced a tremendous volume of production, so there is no need for it. And what new cartridge? The one that is mass-produced since the 43rd?
            1. Passing
              Passing 4 July 2020 13: 53
              -1
              Quote: English Tarantas
              SVT gave a very big advantage over VM

              Trying to answer briefly, I incorrectly expressed the thought. This time I will be verbose.)))
              The advantage is a purely contextual thing. In the context of the Mosink-SVT pair, SVT naturally gave a qualitative advantage. But not at all by the fact of an increase in the combat rate of fire. And by increasing the rate of fire in the context of certain combat situations. When firing a powerful weapon such as a rifle, at long and medium distances, in defense, the shooter spends most of his time on aiming, and not at all on reloading, if he wants to hit, of course. Moreover, the long / medium distance to the enemy is a typical distance in defense, and the short one is rare, this is already force majeure. So the increased technical rate of fire in this case did not give a noticeable increase in the real combat rate of fire. When attacking, at the moment of movement, at long / medium distances, both rifles are equally useless, and only at pistol distances, at bayonet, the SVT finally gave a qualitative advantage. So even in the Mosink-SVT pair, the SVT advantage was very situational and not fundamental in the "arithmetic mean" sense. But the high price and complexity of development in the troops, for those conditions, were already fundamental disadvantages.
              However, why on earth would we consider a couple, when in reality there was a trio - Mosinka, SVT, a submachine gun. And in the context of this trio, SVT was an expensive one that did not give a significant increase in the effectiveness of the Mosinka, and at the same time a very bad "submachine gun". Those. it was a conceptually erroneous, in the context of that war, "universal". Therefore, his fate is natural.
              Quote: English tarantass
              What a dilapidated economy?

              Here is this:

              By eye, measuring failure in the war years, so that's what floorshattered.
              Quote: English tarantass
              And what new cartridge? The one that is mass-produced since the 43rd?

              belay belay belay I'm in shock ... The world will never be the same ...
              1. Serg koma
                Serg koma 5 July 2020 20: 44
                0
                Quote: Passing by
                So the increased technical rate of fire did not give a noticeable increase in the real combat rate of fire in this case. ......... So even in the Mosink-SVT pair, the SVT advantage was very situational and in the "arithmetic mean" sense, not fundamental

                A lot of letters - that's for sure
                Quote: Passing by
                This time I will be verbose.)))
                laughing Exercise: shooting from a supine position at a distance of 100 m at moving TEN targets (complicated the exercise to a real battle). Further on instruction -
                SHOOTING INSTRUCTIONS
                Self-loading rifle arr. 1940 g
                Checking the battle of rifles and bringing them to normal combat
                .......
                116. Checking the battle of a rifle is carried out by the platoon or company commander (squadron). Senior commanders, up to and including the unit commander, are required to monitor the accuracy of compliance with verification rules.
                117. When checking the battle, shooting is carried out by the shooters selected by order of the company commander (squadron) from among the best shooters.

                Question: how many targets will a fighter from SVT-40 shoot down (destroy), and in what time? And a special question for engineers - in what time and how many "targets" out of 10, will a fighter reach, starting from a distance of 100 meters, performing the same exercise BUT from a Mosin rifle ???
                Do you have any idea what the aiming time and reloading time are, and what is the difference between these "exercises" on a self-loading rifle and a rifle with manual reloading? Your "technical thought" led you in the wrong place, and ran into only a bayonet fight. If you ever tried to conduct aimed fire (even on a hunt, even in airsoft), you probably would not have made such comparisons. Go to TIR - practice moving targets from a simple, single-shot air wassat
                1. Samson S.
                  Samson S. 5 July 2020 20: 56
                  -4
                  Quote: Serg Koma
                  Mosin rifle

                  Who is it?
                  Where have you met such a miracle in feathers?
                  There is no such rifle.
                  There is a three-line.
                  For the most advanced, there is a Nagana-Mosin rifle.
                  But the "Mosin rifle" was not and is not.
                  1. Passing
                    Passing 6 July 2020 14: 26
                    +1
                    I am familiar with the history of the appearance of Mosinka, so in the course. But the "Mosin rifle" is quite a traditional, well-established option for centuries, so I'm certainly to blame, but there are extenuating circumstances)))
                  2. Serg koma
                    Serg koma 7 July 2020 06: 36
                    -1
                    Quote: Samson S.
                    But the "Mosin rifle" was not and is not.

                    But you really understood what was going on.
                    From Wiki -
                    magazine rifle, adopted by the Russian Imperial Army in 1891.
                    It had other names - 7,62 mm rifle arr. 1891 (1891/30) (official name until 1924), three-ruler, Mosin rifle, "Mosinka" and the like.

                    PS
                    Quote: Samson S.
                    There is a three-line.

                    Quote: Samson S.
                    There is no such rifle.

                    There is
                    "Russian 3-line Mosin rifle, model 1891"
                    "three-line rifle model 1891"
                    "rifle model 1891/1930 (GRAU index - 56-B-222)" ....
                    write in full - a lot of letters. laughing
                    I hope you got what I meant drinks
                    PPS Cons Not From Me belay
                2. Passing
                  Passing 6 July 2020 14: 08
                  0
                  Quote: Serg Koma
                  If you ever tried to aim fire

                  More than once from two small things, and from the machine it happened, and even, against the background of the others, it looked good, but certainly not a sniper. Actually, I’ve been in the army, but not with a purebred warrior, but with a jacket,)))
                  That is why I firmly know, including from observing the others at the shooting range, that if you want to hit, you need to aim for a long time and persistently. Even the basic, seemingly primitive, task of combining front sight and rear sight is far from easy for those who do not have many years of practice, requiring many, many seconds. And I do not even consider, such unrealistically complex for the majority of entities as control of attachment, breathing, descent. If the average citizen who has not been taught / badly taught this for several years tries to do all this, then he will generally "aim" for a minute. This I mean if he does all this, and gets in, but usually, the majority does not want / cannot bother with all this, and is limited to a shitty combination of the rear sight with the front sight. Accordingly, the majority of citizens are caught only in a statistical sense.
                  Quote: Serg Koma
                  Question: how many targets will a fighter from SVT-40 shoot down (destroy), and in what time? And a special question for engineers - in what time and how many "targets" out of 10, will a fighter reach, starting from a distance of 100 meters, performing the same exercise BUT from a Mosin rifle ???

                  If the number of cartridges is limited, then in the average statistical sense along all arrows, all targets will never be hit, this is my observation from life. And absolutely no difference from what they will shoot. Whether from an AK or a rifle. And this is in ideal conditions. And the less time it takes to aim, the worse the result will obviously be. And in a real battle, when it’s scary, when a bullet flies into the head of a comrade in front of your eyes, you have no time for a long aiming either from Mosinka or SVT. Yes, in addition, the enemies run, and do not represent targets, and you need to apply such a really daunting thing as anticipation. And correctly determine the distance. Namely, these two things are not taught at the training grounds! The result will rapidly approach zero. Yes, in a statistical sense, there will be twice as dense "stream of bullets per kilometer of front" from SVT. But if the result with single shooting is near-zero, then doubling it will actually give nothing. Multiply one percent of random hits by two, will this greatly add to your chances of repelling the attack? Only machine gunners are able to stop the enemy at long and medium distances, and if the machine gunners are covered, then only PP-tchiks will save at the close. It is for this reason, as a result of the war, that smart people came up with the concept of firing multiple bullets in one aim. Not erroneous, for a non-professional army, the concept of semi-automatic shooting, when the probability of hitting is strictly equal to the probability of correct aiming, i.e. for a layman, in a real battle, the value is near-zero, and automatic shooting, when a hit is obtained not only with correct aiming, but also with incorrect aiming.
                  1. Serg koma
                    Serg koma 7 July 2020 06: 15
                    0
                    In some places your thought goes in the right direction
                    Quote: Passing by
                    Even the basic, seemingly primitive, task of combining the front sight and rear sight is far from easy for those who do not have many years of practice, requiring many, many seconds. And I don't even consider such unrealistically complex entities for most as control of attachment, breathing, descent. If the average citizen who has not been taught / badly taught this for several years tries to do all this, then he will generally "aim" for a minute.

                    Next, you slide into single shots:
                    Quote: Passing by
                    But if the result is a single near-zero shooting, then doubling it will actually do nothing.

                    Introduce yourself again:
                    Quote: Passing by
                    And in a real battle, when it’s scary, when a bullet flies into your head before a comrade’s eyes, you don’t have a long time to heal from Mosinki or SVT.

                    And the difference between Mosinka and SVT.
                    It takes much less time to aim the SVT (10 rounds), since it is not necessary to change the grip of the weapon for reloading each time. Make a shot at the target, after the shot (recoil), make a correction and again pull the trigger. This is the advantage of the AUTOMATIC rifle.
                    Quote: Passing by
                    and from the machine it happened, and even, against the background of others, it looked good,

                    The same as with AK singles, compare with your experience of shooting with a "small" and - "feel the difference."
                    For you, as an ITR employee, perhaps a more vivid example is the manufacture of some kind of part, for example, by stamping and manual "chasing", then, other things being equal in quality,
                    Quote: Passing by
                    there will be twice as dense "stream of bullets per kilometer of front"
                    more goods in less time.
                    And so, if you rely only on a single shot (again, with all equal) when hitting a target - from a musket ("musket loading techniques, which included about three dozen separate operations"), Mosinka, SVT, "small cars" and "Berdanks" ( laughing ) will be exactly the same result. hi
                    P / S / Progress however good
                    1. Okinawa
                      Okinawa 8 July 2020 11: 16
                      0
                      Yeah, worse than a "couch expert" can only be a "theoretical boot".
              2. English tarantas
                English tarantas 6 July 2020 16: 56
                0
                Oh, it’s a pity VO has no function of voice messages, because it’s so lazy to tell you about the battle at different distances and in different conditions, you have to write so much and not the fact that you will understand. Therefore, they wrote a little here below to you, check out.
                Here's a

                God, do you hear the difference between GDP and the military-industrial complex? GDP is how much the value of the entire product of the economy is estimated, and it is estimated. And the quantity and quality of defense industry products is a purely material thing and divorced from economic systems, currencies and world trade. You confuse blue with hot.
                I'm in shock ... The world will never be the same ...

                Get out of shock you don’t go there. You wrote as if you didn’t know, I told you what these antics are for?
                1. Passing
                  Passing 6 July 2020 18: 44
                  0
                  Quote: English tarantass
                  you hear the difference between GDP and the military-industrial complex. MIC is a thing purely material and divorced from economic systems

                  Well, okay, you like to think that the military-industrial complex is something material, separate from the invention of capitalist speculators, GDP, I will not insist. Let's consider this "purely material". Before the war, we had a certain number of "machines" (drawers, workshop buildings, etc.). The war began, all the "machines" were transferred to the military-industrial complex, but some of the "machines" were lost, which means that a decrease in "purely material" is inevitable. Further, before the war, tens of millions of men and women worked somewhere and produced, among other things, "purely material". During the war, all these people were excluded from production. Someone temporarily, and someone, twenty million, forever. In total, there are fewer "machines", fewer workers, a failure in the "purely material" is inevitable.
                  Quote: English tarantass
                  You wrote as if you didn’t know, I told you what these antics are for?

                  Well, I’m serious, the first quote on the topic:
                  The 7,62-mm cartridge of the 1943 model [4] (7,62 × 39 mm) is an intermediate cartridge with a protruding rim of a design by N. M. Elizarov and B. V. Semin.
                  Development was completed by 1949, and, despite the name, the final sample of the cartridge was very different from the original sample of 1943, which had a sleeve 41 mm long.
                  1. English tarantas
                    English tarantas 7 July 2020 11: 01
                    -1
                    Well, I’m serious, the first quote on the topic:

                    Well, at least you know something. True, count the machines in your mind ...... If only you can find some picture where the number of "machines" is drawn
            2. Samson S.
              Samson S. 5 July 2020 21: 02
              0
              Quote: English tarantass
              SVT gives a very high density of fire.

              Combat rate of fire M1 Garand, Lee Anfield, SVT-40 20 rounds per minute.
              Mauser K98, 15 rounds per minute.
              Three lines, 10 rounds per minute.
              1. English tarantas
                English tarantas 6 July 2020 16: 58
                -1
                Maybe I don’t know the exact numbers. Although I would remove enfield from this list. I heard that she was very comfortable and ergonomic. But still, shaking hands do not affect the rate of self-loading.
              2. gross kaput
                gross kaput 7 July 2020 20: 21
                0
                Quote: Samson S.
                Combat rate of fire M1 Garand, Lee Anfield, SVT-40 20 rounds per minute.

                Where did you get this from? Combat rate of fire depends on the task being performed, the distance and size of the target and is limited by the technical capabilities of the weapon. All this is much more revealingly replaced by one term - "combat effectiveness", the combat effectiveness of SVT when firing from 100 to 300 in height is twice as high as that of a mosinka, then the difference smoothly decreases and by 500 they are compared and go head to head to 800 And a very sad result for the mosinka was when comparing the effectiveness of fire at close distances from 50 m to point-blank shooting - the effectiveness of the SVT was 2,5 times higher and the AVT showed an advantage over the mosinka by 4 times.
          2. Droid
            Droid 4 July 2020 22: 33
            0
            SVT is not indicative at all. Even if it worked like a clock, mass production would be extremely unlikely,

            SVT is indicative. It was a mass production - a million pieces. That's just the design flaws, coupled with the lack of a reliable store and the declining quality of production in wartime, put an end to it.
            because it didn’t give any fundamental advantages over Mosinka

            Gave. SVT was more effective than three times ~ 2 times when it shot without delay.
            1. oprovergatel
              oprovergatel 7 July 2020 18: 18
              0
              I heard from knowledgeable people that the main question there was about leaving (if you can streamline it).

              SVT was sensitive to pollution (as, in principle, any automation). And the main problem node is the gas regulator.

              The mass recruiting infantry Vanya of 1941-1945 was, for the most part, a simple good guy with 5 classes of a rural school behind him. And the concept of cleaning the gas regulator after EVERY firing (if possible) or the entire mechanism after contact with the pollutant (earth, sand, liquid mud), or, regularly, caring for rather capricious weapons was difficult for him.

              It is much simpler and more familiar than the native three-ruler, where in case of pollution or a wedge, the issue was not decided by the flimsy springs of automation, but by the application of the muscular arms of the aforementioned Vanya to the shutter handle of the heroic effort.
              1. gross kaput
                gross kaput 7 July 2020 20: 03
                0
                Quote: oprovergatel
                It is much simpler and more familiar than the native three-ruler, where in case of pollution or a wedge, the issue was not decided by the flimsy springs of automation, but by the application of the muscular arms of the aforementioned Vanya to the shutter handle of the heroic effort.

                This is not a valid thesis - yes, delays on SVT due to the fault of automation can happen, but the overwhelming majority of these delays are easily eliminated - i.e. requiring banal pulling and releasing the shutter handle.
                1. oprovergatel
                  oprovergatel 9 July 2020 14: 46
                  0
                  I mean the vision of this question from a simple conscript of that time.

                  A simple mass infantryman voted for a three-ruler with arms and legs. SVT did not take root well in the infantry. But the special forces and the sniper (and also, as somewhere here in the comments, the Marines), that is, people with good training, respected her very much.
          3. gross kaput
            gross kaput 6 July 2020 23: 19
            0
            Quote: Passing by
            Even if it worked like a clock, mass production would be extremely unlikely

            Oh how! The staff of the rifle division 04/400 41g. take the trouble to open - in a rifle company ALL shooters are armed with self-loading rifles i.e. 96 SVT in the company. Mosin rifles and carbines only for "non-combat" servicemen - a clerk, a sled, a messenger, etc. and the crews of machine guns and 50 mm mortars. Actually "improbable mass production" was established before the war at 3 enterprises, at the 4th (plant 54 Zlatoust) by the beginning of the war they did not have time to master the full cycle, the plan for 1941 provided for the production of 1,1 ml. SVT - I will draw your attention - this is a plan of mass production for ONE year. But SVT were produced before that, since 1939. One plant 314 in 40 produced 220000 SVT38 and SVT 40, in just 39-41 1,5 ml of SVT were produced. Well, in total with the 39th-45th SVT / AVT manufactured
            2145000 piece.
            Quote: Passing by
            but it was very expensive.

            It’s not true, the reduction in the production of CBT and the launch of mass production of mosquitoes at the end of the 41st was not connected with the price, but with two interrelated reasons - the evacuation of factories and the associated leapfrog with the establishment of production at new sites, and the time required for manufacturing is simpler - in the initial period, a huge amount of weapons was lost, these losses urgently need to be replenished and arming the newly formed units, the main manufacturers - Tula and Podolsky plants on the way to new sites, Izhevsk alone is not able to pull this - therefore, after a long ordeal, it was decided to restart production of mosquitoes in Izhevsk - he could give them much more. As a result, the production of CBT / AWT during the war years remained only at the 314 plant in Mednogorsk - evacuated TOZ.
            Quote: Passing by
            . Technologically very laborious, one milled !!! receiver cost what

            Excuse me to write nonsense - the AK was originally designed and produced with a stamped box by the 49th year - switching to the 50 / 51st milling is a necessary measure related to the unworked technology of assembling the stamped box, it worked out only in the 55th on a lightweight AK, but a series it has already gone to AKM.
            Quote: Passing by
            And AK, compared to Mosinka, PPSh, PPS, is a super-high tech.

            And again, nonsense: AK was designed according to TTZ as the cornerstone in which there was reliability, including protection from the fool.
        2. English tarantas
          English tarantas 4 July 2020 12: 45
          +1
          Just google the amount of automatic weapons during the Second World War, oh horror, there probably were so many assault groups. Despite the fact that our groups did not collect such groups in WWII and did not conduct such practice everywhere in the Second World War.
        3. Doliva63
          Doliva63 4 July 2020 23: 19
          +1
          Quote: PilotS37
          There were also many PPSh, but they were mainly armed with assault groups

          According to eyewitnesses, the assault regiments / battalions were armed with PPS rather than PPSh.
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 5 July 2020 10: 14
            +1
            Quote: Doliva63
            Quote: PilotS37
            There were also many PPSh, but they were mainly armed with assault groups

            According to eyewitnesses, the assault regiments / battalions were armed with PPS rather than PPSh.

            Platoons-Companies of submachine gunners, since about autumn 41, first. I don’t remember the second, but it seems from 42.
            So that was the one from the automatic surround and armed! Sometimes faced with the problem that a group armed with machine guns could not remove the observer due to the range of the actual fire. At 45, carbines of the 44-year-old sample came to the place!
            1. Doliva63
              Doliva63 6 July 2020 19: 11
              +2
              Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Quote: Doliva63
              Quote: PilotS37
              There were also many PPSh, but they were mainly armed with assault groups

              According to eyewitnesses, the assault regiments / battalions were armed with PPS rather than PPSh.

              Platoons-Companies of submachine gunners, since about autumn 41, first. I don’t remember the second, but it seems from 42.
              So that was the one from the automatic surround and armed! Sometimes faced with the problem that a group armed with machine guns could not remove the observer due to the range of the actual fire. At 45, carbines of the 44-year-old sample came to the place!

              Father in "stormtroopers" fought when Budapest was taken. In service with their "infantry" - PPS, SVT and 45-mm cannon. And in addition, any trophy was allowed. So removing the observer was no problem. laughing
              1. Mordvin 3
                Mordvin 3 6 July 2020 19: 15
                +1
                Quote: Doliva63
                And also in addition any trophy was allowed.

                And my grandfather told me the opposite. Trophy - seized.
                1. Doliva63
                  Doliva63 6 July 2020 20: 55
                  0
                  Quote: mordvin xnumx
                  Quote: Doliva63
                  And also in addition any trophy was allowed.

                  And my grandfather told me the opposite. Trophy - seized.
                  It is clear that illegal weapons have always been fought. But what is an assault battalion in a city? An entire training regiment worked for the assault battalion, where my father fought - the losses were so great, they reached 70%. Therefore, no one withdrew anything - anything that could contribute to the completion of the task was welcomed. It's about those fighters who were already in the assault groups. And everyone was "tyrling" in their pockets - who is Walter, who is Parabellum. For memory, so to speak.laughing
                  And here are 3 short stories about these "for memory". 45th, China, guard. The inspector went to the post, and there was a drunken sentry. He, of course, was disarmed, but the one with the words Oh you bastards! takes Walter out from under his overcoat and shoots at the inspector. Tribunal, term, missing person. 60s, Moscow, Bolshoi Theater. Intermission, cognac. Then a military man in uniform stands up in the hall and says, like, where's the anthem of the USSR? starts firing from Parabellum into the chandeliers. Police, court, psychiatric hospital. The person is missing. My father also had Parabellum, but during the next move he left it in a bag at the Kirov railway station, it seems, and served his 32 years normally for the good of the Motherland. drinks
    3. Charik
      Charik 5 July 2020 09: 33
      +1
      but isn’t the literate population in the troops, it seems like they should teach military affairs
      1. Serg koma
        Serg koma 5 July 2020 20: 53
        0
        Quote: Charik
        but isn’t the literate population in the troops, it seems like they should teach military affairs

        Why not equip ALL of them with sniper rifles (SVT-40; "Mosin") instead of simple "three-line"? That would probably be great? The Fritzes would have been killed at 41!
        It’s true that there wouldn’t be enough money for tanks, so identity doesn’t matter either laughing
  5. Viktor Sergeev
    Viktor Sergeev 3 July 2020 08: 14
    +8
    I don’t understand what accuracy can be said when firing a machine gun at a range of more than 300 meters. This is an assault rifle, not a sniper rifle, optics are unlikely to be delivered to it (massively). Rather, everything is decided by the price and ease of development.
    1. Killemall
      Killemall 3 July 2020 08: 37
      +2
      absolutely right. to use an automatic machine for firing at a distance of more than 300 meters is an outrageous idiocy and a waste of ammunition.
      1. garri-lin
        garri-lin 3 July 2020 09: 58
        +2
        It depends on what and how to use it. At 400 500 meters it is quite possible. The maximum shooting distance does not depend on the range of the weapon, but on the ability of the human eye to distinguish between the target.
        1. Killemall
          Killemall 3 July 2020 12: 09
          +2
          I agree ... In principle, it is possible to destroy the Colorado potato beetle with the help of the Grad, the only question is how much damage to the garden can be considered acceptable.))) I mean that it is desirable to use the weapon for its intended purpose, neither "Kalash", nor A-545 in in principle not intended for shooting at such distances.
          1. garri-lin
            garri-lin 3 July 2020 13: 01
            +1
            Calmly worked from Kalash on a growth figure of 500 meters. The most difficult thing was to make out the target. The contrast is the easier it is to aim. But about Grad and Colorado is not clear.
            1. Killemall
              Killemall 3 July 2020 13: 29
              +4
              Calmly worked from Kalash on a growth figure of 500 meters

              if I were familiar with the "Kalash" from the sofa, then I probably would not have paid attention to the word "calm", but I will leave it on your conscience. By the way, what does "work quietly" mean? Those. dropped the "horn" into the white light as a pretty penny? I am sure that a person who has a good command of a machine gun, who regularly trains with it (exactly with the same one), can hit this distance a couple of times from a cold barrel ... but this is a mathematical error ... usually such conversations "I knocked him out from 1000 meters" are typical for heroes of American action movies .. and ... well, another ass ... that is, fans of computer games. What is not clear in the words Grad and the Colorado potato beetle? And why do you call the Colorado potato beetle Colorado ... I don't like this spelling
              1. garri-lin
                garri-lin 3 July 2020 14: 46
                -2
                It will take two minutes to land the horn at a distance of over 70 -80 meters. It flies well from a cold barrel, but the accuracy is poor. The trunk should be warm. But not overheated. 5 hits from the "Own" barrel from the horn is quite normal. It is not good to use an "alien" barrel. Only if your own has dried out and the owner of another's 300.
                I use the term Colorado in relation to the Colorado Beetle from the age of eight. It was at this age that they began to kick me out into the potato fields to collect this pest. It was in hoary Soviet antiquity. Since then, I’m not going to put this name and any other concept in this term. And about Grad I belatedly understood. Shooting in bursts at a distance of over 100 meters on the conscience of the shooter and his curved arms. At a distance of 100 meters with a cut-off of 2 or 3 rounds. To create a density of fire.
            2. SaLaR
              SaLaR 3 July 2020 23: 22
              +3
              An exercise ; machine gun-100 meter .. growth-200 meter ... growth -400 meter .. 3 targets -6 rounds .. DMB 90-92 5 OBRSpN Maryina Gorka AKS-74
              1. garri-lin
                garri-lin 3 July 2020 23: 35
                +1
                They taught you well.
                1. SaLaR
                  SaLaR 3 July 2020 23: 40
                  +3
                  for 30 people two zinc .. two day .. one night shooting every week
                  1. garri-lin
                    garri-lin 3 July 2020 23: 48
                    +1
                    2160 divided by 30. 72 cartridges per person. Not bad, not bad. It’s even enviable. They didn’t spoil us like that.
                    1. SaLaR
                      SaLaR 3 July 2020 23: 59
                      +1
                      it was at Borodoch .. then the Mole was .. (((and
                      1. garri-lin
                        garri-lin 4 July 2020 09: 15
                        0
                        Ehh. Starting from the 86th, so many things were cheated that it’s scary to remember.
                      2. SaLaR
                        SaLaR 4 July 2020 12: 30
                        0
                        and this despite the fact that I am a "spider" ... and the "Rex" generally had a tactical town
            3. Doliva63
              Doliva63 6 July 2020 21: 12
              0
              Quote: SaLaR
              An exercise ; machine gun-100 meter .. growth-200 meter ... growth -400 meter .. 3 targets -6 rounds .. DMB 90-92 5 OBRSpN Maryina Gorka AKS-74

              100 m. - infantry group in the trench, 150-200 m. - machine gun calculation, 250-300 m. - RPG calculation, 300-400 m. - growth, 2 passes, AKS / AKMS, DMB 81-91.
        2. ssergey1978
          ssergey1978 4 July 2020 04: 57
          +1
          AK perfectly shoots up to 500 meters, in particular mine has a grouping of just over 2 minutes, that is, at a range of 500, the dispersion will be about 300 mm
    2. PilotS37
      PilotS37 3 July 2020 22: 56
      +2
      Quote: KilleMall
      absolutely right. to use an automatic machine for firing at a distance of more than 300 meters is an outrageous idiocy and a waste of ammunition.

      Especially when you consider that the department also has a [scientific] PC and a sniper with SVD ...
      So they close the range of more than 300 m.
  6. Glory1974
    Glory1974 3 July 2020 10: 04
    +2
    I don’t understand what accuracy can be said when firing a machine gun at a range of more than 300 meters.

    range of a direct shot on the chest figure 440 meters. Shoot please, what problems?
    1. Killemall
      Killemall 3 July 2020 12: 16
      +5
      this statement is akin to this: "the lethal force of a bullet fired from an AK-74 remains at a distance of 1100 meters. Please shoot, kill enemies, what's the problem?" These two phrases are related not only by the fact that they have the same structure of argumentation, but also by the fact that this is nonsense. It will be quite difficult to hit even a stationary target at such a distance, for a number of reasons that cannot be ignored ... I do not want to delve into ballistics and the need to calculate the lead (if the target is moving) and the effect of the wind ... and so on ...
      1. Glory1974
        Glory1974 3 July 2020 13: 27
        +1
        that's bullshit.

        It will be quite difficult at such a distance to hit even a stationary target,

        You already decide, or this is nonsense, or hard.
        AK is designed for shooting up to 500 meters, and this is not nonsense, but a calculation. Nobody argues that it is hard to hit, but there are calculations for that. You should know them if you know the words "ballistics" and "preemption". There is a density of fire, etc.
        Therefore, there is a firing range for the growth figure and the chest. And not at all to convince a soldier not to shoot.
        1. Killemall
          Killemall 3 July 2020 13: 36
          +2
          Well, if so, then I choose the word nonsense!
          look on the Internet for the sign "Indicators of total dispersion when firing in short bursts from an AK-74 normalized battle"
          indicators are very dull for connoisseurs to hit the mark.
          1. Glory1974
            Glory1974 3 July 2020 13: 48
            +2
            indicators are very dull for connoisseurs to hit the mark.

            Nevertheless, the combat regulations spell the distances from which the fire is fired and for what purposes. And nowhere is it written that you can shoot with AK only from 300 meters. Everywhere goes from 500m.
            To increase the likelihood of hitting a target, the commander must make certain organizational efforts, is spelled out in the manual on the small business, and everything becomes normal.
            can you confuse the range of the actual fire, the effective range?
            Well, if so, then I choose the word nonsense!

            By the way, an exercise of control firing from AK, a growth target is set at a distance of 300-350 meters. This is also nonsense in your opinion?
        2. ssergey1978
          ssergey1978 4 July 2020 04: 59
          0
          Thioretics, what is the calculation for 500 meters? Experience and knowledge of your gun, everything.
          1. Korax71
            Korax71 4 July 2020 19: 56
            0
            This is called a barrel in hand, but they forgot to teach the theory of the shooting process. If you do not understand the mechanism of the shot and how the bullet behaves on the flight path, then experience will not help from the word at all. Experience will in no way help increase the energy of boules when meeting with a goal. in theory, 220 acorns when meeting with a goal such as an unprotected head is enough to send this goal to a better world, but in fact, at a distance of 400m there will be 344 acorns, at a speed of 448 points, for 500m-243 acorns, with 377 capes. The most significant damage occurs during the formation of a supersonic flow in tissues during energy transfer. It occurs in pointed bullets with a mixed center of gravity to the tail at a speed of at least 600 m / s, and deformation and fragmentation of the bullet can be observed. For 7n6 this distance is about 200m. At 300m 5.45x39 it still preserves the characteristics for sending soft targets to the best the world (537 m / s and 493 J). At a range of 400 m and above, the terminal impact no longer provides a guaranteed conclusion of the target out of action.
            1. Droid
              Droid 4 July 2020 22: 38
              0
              but in fact, at a distance of 400m there will be 344 acorns, at a speed of 448 mys, at 500m-243 acorns, with 377 capes.

              In fact, at 400 m, 543 m / s and 504 J. And at 500 m, 467 m / s.
              1. Korax71
                Korax71 4 July 2020 23: 03
                0
                7n6 with a 3.42g bullet at the start of 870-910 capes ??? Have the laws of physics suddenly changed?
                1. Droid
                  Droid 5 July 2020 14: 34
                  0
                  You opened NSD to AK74? Did you look at the main table?
                  1. Korax71
                    Korax71 6 July 2020 11: 40
                    0
                    Well, the Voyenizdat released a "manual for a 5.45mm Kalashnikov assault rifle". NSD only for 7.62. Well, and the data in the tables are taken from the maximum (900m / s) speed, this is an attempt to wishful thinking. So the cron usually shows an average speed of 870 -880 m / s, but if you count from the average, then not everything will be so rosy.
                    1. Droid
                      Droid 8 July 2020 18: 39
                      0
                      The data in the tables is taken from the maximum (900m / s) speed - this is an attempt to give out what is desired as valid.

                      Not from the maximum, but from the average. Let me also remind you that from this speed, aiming angles on the aiming bar are calculated. Therefore, your next logical statement, directly arising from the previous one, should be - the AK74 has constant shortages because the aiming angles do not correspond to reality. But something tells me that such a statement will not be.

                      so cron usually shows an average speed of 870-880 m / s.

                      What cartridge, from which barrel and at what distance from the muzzle end hron? Yes, neither 880 nor 870 m / s of the initial speed makes a difference with the table speed of 90 m / s.
                    2. gross kaput
                      gross kaput 9 July 2020 18: 48
                      0
                      Quote: Korax71
                      Well, the Military Publishing House has issued a "manual for the 5.45mm Kalashnikov assault rifle". NSD only for 7.62.

                      Well, the name has changed instead of the NSD, the Guides have become new samples, the essence and amount of material has not changed, all the same sections and shooting tables, this is in cattle or technical equipment and IE the material is reduced and incomplete.
            2. ssergey1978
              ssergey1978 5 July 2020 06: 15
              0
              I studied theory and those basics about 25 years ago. About 20 years I shoot. I don’t think you can teach me anything
  • Sergey_G_M
    Sergey_G_M 3 July 2020 08: 18
    +4
    Moreover, in some sources today you can find evidence that the AK-12 is more effective than the A-545 when firing at a distance of more than 300 meters. This is achieved through more efficient firing of single rounds from the Izhevsk assault rifle.

    This is strange. Has the Kalashnikovs really invested in production and began to make better trunks and will this be preserved in serial machines?
  • Yrec
    Yrec 3 July 2020 09: 48
    +4
    I will repeat once more: a NEW CARTRIDGE is needed. The energy of the existing intermediate ammunition is no longer enough to overcome modern NIB from a distance V UPOR. And from a distance of 200-300 m, the NIB, say, of the "Ratnik-2" type, in general, has almost all-round protection from such ammunition. Soon it will be like in airsoft - whoever was hit just raises his hand and leaves the battlefield wassat
    1. Passing
      Passing 3 July 2020 14: 25
      0
      IMHO, you incorrectly place accents for which they chew on the topic of a new cartridge around the world. Yes, it is planned to overcome NIB, but there is an important nuance that is not directly stated. Its true meaning is to increase the penetration range of lightly armored elements, such as fabric armored elements and helmets, and not to overcome hard armored elements such as ceramic plates. For, if you make a cartridge piercing ceramics, you will have to change the whole paradigm of the use of riflemen, because you have to abandon automatic fire in principle.
      1. Ingenegr
        Ingenegr 3 July 2020 20: 27
        0
        Quote: Passing by
        if you make a cartridge piercing ceramics, you will have to change the whole paradigm of the use of the gunner, because you have to abandon automatic fire in principle.

        Why's that? How are high penetration ability and refusal of automatic fire related? Rather, on the contrary, the guaranteed defeat of protected targets when hit in any of their areas fully reanimates automatic fire, since the probability of falling into the full size of a figure is always higher than only in its unprotected part.
        1. Passing
          Passing 3 July 2020 21: 00
          -1
          Increased penetration is achieved by various methods. For mass army munitions, only the way to increase muzzle energy is practically real. Those. and momentum. Yes, the momentum does not directly depend on energy, if we focus on the speed of the bullet, then the momentum will increase more slowly than energy, but this path has been exhausted, it is no longer possible to increase the speed of a bullet in a mass weapon for operational reasons - barrel wear increases sharply. Those. in practice, if we want to increase energy at times, then we inevitably increase the momentum at times. As practice has shown, the recoil momentum from the rifle seven does not allow for effective automatic fire from an assault rifle. And we need a muzzle energy substantially larger than this rifle, because we need to pierce those plates that are already not being punched point-blank by the rifle seven, and to punch at a distance of hundreds of meters, and not point-blank.
          1. ssergey1978
            ssergey1978 5 July 2020 06: 18
            0
            The cartridge 5.45x39 refutes your calculations. Its energy and speed are modest and penetration is achieved by heavy-duty cores.
            1. Passing
              Passing 6 July 2020 14: 47
              +1
              The influence of the material on the penetration is realized through the bundle of density-strength-hardness of the material, and this path has exhausted itself (within the framework of "rifled", ie torsion-stabilized, ammunition). It is practically unrealistic to use "tungsten" and "uranium" cores for a mass cartridge. The real option is steel only. By introducing more and more high-strength steels, you will not fundamentally change the situation. For the strength and hardness of the cores of the latest models of armor-piercing cartridges have already reached almost optimum, i.e. they do not crumple or crumble even in ceramics, further growth will not give a significant increase in penetration, well, you will make the tip even more acute, this will have some effect for soft materials, such as titanium or UHMWPE, but for armor steels or ceramics will not give anything ..
  • tank64rus
    tank64rus 3 July 2020 10: 07
    +6
    If only this machine gun did not suffer the fate of the SVT, an excellent rifle is especially appreciated by the Germans, who even took it into service (trophy) samples. But we did not take root in the infantry units, because It required competent service, but in the Marine Corps and among snipers, they treated her very respectfully.
  • The comment was deleted.
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. Bad_gr
        Bad_gr 3 July 2020 11: 49
        +2
        Quote: Sergey_G_M
        And the fact that two machines were accepted was simply fed both Izhevsk and Kovrov.

        If I remember correctly, the competition for "Warrior" was won by Kovrovtsy with their A-545 and A-762. I was also surprised that I managed to push aside the Kalash. But then some fuss began and they said that the AK-12 also passed, and then they said that both of them would be purchased.
  • KSVK
    KSVK 3 July 2020 11: 36
    -1
    Quote: Yrec
    I repeat once again: we need a NEW CARTRIDGE. The energy of the existing intermediate ammunition is not enough to overcome modern NIB from a distance in the UPOR.

    T-s-s-s. Who said 6,5? laughing
    1. Ingenegr
      Ingenegr 3 July 2020 12: 01
      -1
      And not 6.2? Or maybe 6.8?
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Izotovp
    Izotovp 3 July 2020 12: 43
    +1
    When will this two-caliber whistle stop ?!
  • qaz
    qaz 3 July 2020 13: 17
    0
    300 meter shooting? Bursts? Did you really start cuckoo there?
    1. Izotovp
      Izotovp 3 July 2020 13: 47
      +2
      Suppression Fire. The whole unit.
    2. Glory1974
      Glory1974 3 July 2020 13: 51
      +2
      300 meter shooting? Bursts? Did you really start cuckoo there?

      Look at what distance the mesh is placed for shooting from the AK-74, called the "attacking infantry group" The target moves along the front at a certain speed, and the distance to it is more than 300 meters. And yes, you need to shoot with automatic fire laughing .
      1. Pilat2009
        Pilat2009 3 July 2020 22: 01
        0
        Quote: glory1974
        Look at what distance a mesh is placed for shooting from an AK-74, called "a group of attacking infantry"

        There was a long time ago an article about the theory of shooting. There, the author claimed that our methods and sights lag far behind the western ones, that enemy soldiers obviously have an advantage in firing.
        And our Israeli friends said that it is directly forbidden to shoot bursts in the Israeli army, soldiers are taught to shoot solitary
    3. Doliva63
      Doliva63 6 July 2020 22: 12
      0
      Quote: qaz
      300 meter shooting? Bursts? Did you really start cuckoo there?

      That was the case in the control firing exercise - bursts of 300-400 m. Rostov, 2 passes. It was harder for me to RPG from the knee to 250-300.
  • KSVK
    KSVK 3 July 2020 13: 18
    0
    Quote: Ingenegr
    And not 6.2? Or maybe 6.8?

    Give an example? Preferably a real cartridge?
    1. agond
      agond 3 July 2020 14: 58
      -1
      Quote "In automatic machines designed in Kovrov, the recoil impulse is effectively damped by using a special counterweight, which, after firing, begins to move towards the slide frame of the machine,"
      the general recoil momentum cannot be suppressed in any way, especially with the help of a gear rack and two gears, only some redistribution of the forces of the rotation moments arising during the movement of the automation parts is possible, these rotation moments could be balanced (balanced) by applying full geometric and mass symmetry for moving parts of the machine, for example, for starters, put two gas pistons on the sides instead of one on top, and the existing A-545 balance scheme is very small.
      1. prodi
        prodi 3 July 2020 16: 43
        0
        and what do you compensate for with two pistons: the moment of rotation of the shutter? bullet rotation in the barrel? asymmetry from the loading handle?
      2. Bad_gr
        Bad_gr 3 July 2020 22: 23
        +2
        Quote: agond
        to start, put two gas pistons on the sides instead of one on top,

        There are 2 gas pistons on top, which scatter in opposite directions.

        (similar to AK-107 / AK-108 assault rifles)
    2. Ingenegr
      Ingenegr 3 July 2020 20: 11
      +2
      6.8x43 Rem SPC satisfied? 6.2x52 (.243 Win) will do? Or are these not real cartridges?
      But there was 6 × 49, still Soviet-developed, with a real 6.2 mm bullet caliber. Also not that?
      Rested on a 6.5-mm icon and we see nothing more, we hear nothing?
  • dgonni
    dgonni 3 July 2020 14: 12
    +3
    Only a VERY rich country can take into service and operate two types of personal small arms and even in two calibers!
    The conclusion suggests itself. Russia is a super rich country!
    1. psiho117
      psiho117 4 July 2020 21: 07
      0
      Quote: dgonni
      Only a VERY rich country can take into service and operate two types of personal small arms and even in two calibers!

      You count how many types of MBTs we have, fighter jets, helicopters, army cars, and you’ll be horrified at all. Where tat Omerike bully
  • senima56
    senima56 3 July 2020 14: 18
    0
    Beautiful weapon! Well done Kovrovtsy, created a great machine! Well, that began (finally !!!) its mass production!
  • moreman78
    moreman78 3 July 2020 15: 14
    +2
    Quote: dgonni
    Only a VERY rich country can take into service and operate two types of personal small arms and even in two calibers!
    The conclusion suggests itself. Russia is a super rich country!

    This is not scary. We are already armed with:
    - 3 types of tank (72, 80, 90) and the 4th on the approach (Armata),
    - 3 types of combat helicopters (Mi-24, Mi-28, Ka-52)
    etc.
    1. pogis
      pogis 3 July 2020 16: 18
      0
      MI-35 was forgotten and yes it turns out 5 assault rifles at 5,45.
  • Droid
    Droid 3 July 2020 19: 01
    +3
    As always, the topic about automatic machines with balanced automation and the Abakan contest is a lot of mistakes.
    In machines designed in Kovrov, the recoil momentum is effectively suppressed by using a special counterweight balancer,

    No automation is able to repay the recoil momentum in principle, this is prohibited by the law of conservation of momentum. But the muzzle brake can extinguish part of the recoil impulse. Balanced automation neutralizes the impact on the body of the weapon of its own impulses. That's all. And in caliber 7,62 there is no sense in it, because the main factor negatively affecting accuracy here is precisely the impulse of bestowal, and not the operation of automation. This was known back in the 60s, confirmed in practice in the 70s and climbed out of this contest once again.
    The accuracy and accuracy of firing from an assault rifle created within the framework of the Abakan ROC was required to be increased by a factor of 1,5-2 compared to the Kalashnikov assault rifle

    Not accuracy and accuracy, but shooting efficiency. And the accuracy of automatic fire should be increased by 5-10 times. Naturally, the AEK-971 flew by with its 2-3 times.
  • Izotovp
    Izotovp 3 July 2020 22: 09
    +1
    And there is also an ADF for special forces and on the approach of AM-17 so far in a small-sized version. But, most likely, soon and it will be made in full format.
  • KSVK
    KSVK 3 July 2020 22: 47
    +1
    Quote: Ingenegr
    6.8x43 Rem SPC satisfied? 6.2x52 (.243 Win) will do? Or are these not real cartridges?
    But there was 6 × 49, still Soviet-developed, with a real 6.2 mm bullet caliber. Also not that?
    Rested on a 6.5-mm icon and we see nothing more, we hear nothing?

    My dear, excuse me, do you have something personal for me? So welcome to the PM.
    6,8x43 someone saw the thread in real conditions? Well, please respond. Really interesting to listen to users. And 243, yes its users forgive me, NOW. And AT ALL. There is a wonderful 6PPC cartridge. For a short benchrest, the BEST. And that's not my opinion. It is a fact. But 243 is an incomprehensible ersatz. Recoil, as well as the sleeve from, 308, the speed and wear of the barrel are prohibitive, and the ammo bullet sucks. Because 6 mm. I will decipher. At short distances, the game tears godlessly, since the bullet speed is over 10000 m / s. Hence hematomas and very high wear on the trunk. At long distances, due to the mediocre S / C bullet, the energy and speed are no longer enough. And the good old 308 with a 10 "twist and a heavy bullet surpasses 243 at distances of 600-800 meters both in accuracy and energy.
    And 6,5 is already at least 3 proven caliber. Grendel. x47 paw and Creedmore. All tested. For all, there are already specific developments. And most importantly, there are working bullets.
    PS Sorry for the "multi-letters".
  • good
    good 4 July 2020 01: 05
    -1
    After the news appeared, they carried everywhere about the fact that the A-545 is a competitor to AK-12 and tears it like a heating pad :))
    And it came to this :))
    Only one phrase confuses;
    "The reliability of the machines created in the Vladimir region and in Udmurtia is comparable."
    The keyword is "comparable" and not the same. And for some reason, at the same time, the AK-12 in the latest version was also adopted and already in parts
    A cuckoo clock with the same name was wrapped and the factory did not return to it anymore. Released in 223 a civilian version with balanced automation, but it didn’t even enter something like that.
    no one is interested in cuckoo clocks if you can use something simpler and get the same features.

    Personally, I am also a little afraid of the construct, the HK-416 or the new Chinese QBZ-191 will be even easier
  • tech3030
    tech3030 4 July 2020 13: 09
    +2
    Is there something they call the draftee from the taiga that he will not be able to master a more complicated machine? Is it the helm of an airplane?
  • t7310
    t7310 4 July 2020 14: 54
    0
    and I am for bullpup and I think the future is for them, a bulpap with balanced automation, and sleeves to spit out where you want, or finally a sleeveless cartridge or capsules alone to spit out, or drill a hole in the pool in the bottom and reduce the sleeve
  • Sergey Titkov
    Sergey Titkov 4 July 2020 18: 14
    0
    For a very long time I have the opportunity sometimes to shoot at a military shooting range in Sertolovo (Leningrad region) from the SVD. This is a tribute to youth, as it were, and to the SVD itself, for it is not a good thing for a girl to just stand in a pyramid. I brought it from Afghanistan, and passed it, as it should, in exchange for a certificate, but (not corruption, communications in the military environment) made sure that it was not identified in the arsenal, and God forbid, it was suddenly utilized. On stands in the pyramid of the part, it is cleaned systematically. So I shot from AK12 recently, a month ago, at the same shooting range. Not a fan of automatic weapons. I did not see the difference between AK47, AK74 or AK12. True, I haven’t seen AK47 for a long time, and 74 everywhere in combat units. Well, I beat in short bursts from a prone position and from a knee both 74 and 12 on targets. Three distances. 50, 100 and 300 m. I did not see any difference. Since the Airborne Forces are not practiced at this shooting range, I don’t even know where to find the 545 model.
    1. psiho117
      psiho117 4 July 2020 21: 15
      +1
      Quote: Sergei Titkov
      I did not see the difference between ... AK74 or AK12

      And you won’t see - the original AK-12 concept was crap, we returned to the proven scheme with backlashes and tolerances for assembly with a mallet. They just stuffed the AK-74M into a new building with picatinas, that's the whole AK-12.
  • Baron pardus
    Baron pardus 4 July 2020 19: 30
    +2
    To keep in service with TWO DIFFERENT types of weapons under the same cartridge is an absurdity that only very rich countries can afford. It is about the same as having three DIFFERENT tanks in service with approximately the same combat properties. A pest's dream. Offset is expensive and harmful. IF weapons with balanced automatics are reliable, and in terms of "cost efficiency" is better than AK12 (which is the same Ak74 but in a new body kit, neither the rigidity of the receiver, nor the stiffness of the barrel, nor the MSA were improved, and the picattini can be attached to the musket from this it will not become modern), so you need to accept it. Tradition and "simplicity" and "familiar to the troops" is good, but under this motto, you can promote the Berdanks into service.

    The main problem, as I see it, is not this. For 1 year of service, you from a civilian gouging expert in your field simply do not. Well, you won’t get a good gunner, an RPG operator or a machine gunner for 1 year. Not to mention acoustics, a specialist in aircraft engine electronics. Although the Germans, and others in their draft army, did not encounter any problems in teaching recruits how to handle and care for G3. And to disassemble, clean and assemble the shutter from her - this is not AK or even M16. In Africa, various formations are still running with the FAL and G3, and also somehow they are maintained in working condition. AK, especially in caliber 5.45, no longer meets modern requirements in terms of accuracy or power. Yes, and his ergonomics are lame, by the way, the same Poles on their TANTAL made everything much more convenient. IF the Kovrov machine gun is reliable and not much more difficult to manufacture, but in terms of accuracy it is better to switch to it, and the caliber must be changed.

    Please keep in mind that this is CAPITALISM :-( and unfortunately, it’s not the quality of the rifle (or other weapon) that decides to be adopted, but the blat and communications of the manufacturer. We should have had to replace the M4 with something better, as the XM8 tests showed, Skar and XK416 and M4, all 3 rifles were given to M4 for reliability, not inferior in accuracy and ease of maintenance (XM8, SCAR and XK416, this is by and large AP180, which is as simple as M4 or Kalash). But left M4, why? Blat and the headstock of the Colt company.
  • Dzafdet
    Dzafdet 4 July 2020 19: 52
    0
    Quote: Passing by
    I, too, "admire" the modern thesis of effective managers that it is senseless and even harmful to give expensive and complex weapons to a conscript. But people who are really worth something, who won the hardest war, believed exactly the opposite - it is the conscript who needs to be given a very expensive, high-tech, conceptually advanced and therefore effective weapon. Because it was the "conscript" who dragged out that war. Not special forces, not the elite, but a simple Vanya of seven classes of education. And they gave him an AK.



    Alas, alas, ordinary Vani had three or four classes of education in the war. the Germans had almost a dozen. Like Bismarck: the teacher wins the war ...
    1. Izotovp
      Izotovp 4 July 2020 22: 05
      0
      In fact, the average level of education in the Soviet Union was higher than in Germany. Therefore, they were able to prepare new military specialists and commanders to replace those who had left the first year of the war. The Germans did not have such a “long bench” of well-educated soldiers and an office.
  • Dzafdet
    Dzafdet 4 July 2020 20: 01
    0
    Quote: KSVK
    Quote: Ingenegr
    And not 6.2? Or maybe 6.8?

    Give an example? Preferably a real cartridge?



    aha: Remington SPC (from the English. special purpose cartridge - cartridge for special purposes) - an intermediate cartridge of caliber 6,8 × 43 mm, created as an optimal intermediate cartridge with good ballistics and lethal force, moderate recoil and size [1].

    History
    The ammunition was developed by Remington together with the US Army since 2002 due to the insufficient stopping action of the .223 Rem cartridge (5,56 × 45 mm). In 2004, it was officially introduced as the 6,8mm Remington SPC cartridge. One of the competitors of the Remington cartridge was the 6,5 mm Grendel cartridge, although it had the best characteristics, but was not compatible with standard army stores for the M16 rifle, as it was created on the basis of a wider Soviet 7,62-mm sleeve automatic cartridge arr. 1943 year.

    The cartridge was created on the basis of the .30 Rem ammunition of the 1906 model. At the sleeve increased the angle of the shoulder, shortened the dulce and rebuilt under a new bullet. The length of the sleeve is 42,835 mm, the total length of the cartridge is 57,40 mm. The desire to use a heavier bullet runs into a restriction on the length of the cartridge, so they limited themselves to a mass of 7,45 g (115 grains) with a short nose. The main one is a bullet with a hollow head of the OTM form (from the English open tip match - open tip, high precision) - with a tapering back (English boattail - boat feed) and a trimmed tip of the shell (German Crimprille - notch), except for it bullets are used without cavity, Sierra-HPBT [2] and Core-Lokt Ultra Bonded [3] - the same mass of 7,45 g (115 grains).
    1. agond
      agond 4 July 2020 21: 11
      0
      Quote: prodi
      and what do you compensate for with two pistons: the moment of rotation of the shutter? bullet rotation in the barrel? asymmetry from the loading handle?

      At the time of the shot, the gas piston moves back with great acceleration, the line of movement of its mass runs at a distance of about 3 cm from the center of mass of the machine itself, therefore a torque appears in the machine that would compensate for it in Kovrov they thought of using a gear rack with gears, that is, they believe that at the moment of the shot the forward mass of the rod is able to balance the mass of the piston moving backward and then the total sum of the moments of the rod and piston relative to the center of the machine will be zero. how actually moments are summarized no information.
      So, the similar task of balancing moments is easily solved by installing two pistons on the sides of the barrel instead of one on top, by the way two pistons are more reliable than one, and not any wisdom with gears and racks ..
      1. Droid
        Droid 4 July 2020 22: 45
        0
        Balanced automation serves solely to neutralize the impact of moving parts on the weapon body in order to minimize their disturbing effect on the stability of the weapon when firing in bursts.
      2. prodi
        prodi 5 July 2020 06: 37
        0
        Quote: agond
        So, the similar task of balancing moments is easily solved by installing two pistons on the sides of the barrel instead of one on top,

        it's easier to switch to AR-ku
  • Charik
    Charik 5 July 2020 09: 35
    0
    Vasya kicked and choked, and you swear, talk
  • Dzafdet
    Dzafdet 5 July 2020 13: 32
    +1
    Quote: Izotovp
    In fact, the average level of education in the Soviet Union was higher than in Germany. Therefore, they were able to prepare new military specialists and commanders to replace those who had left the first year of the war. The Germans did not have such a “long bench” of well-educated soldiers and an office.




    apparently. it was another USSR ...
    "The level of education of the soldiers and commanders of the Red Army on the eve of the war was on average higher than in the country

    Young people who had already grown up in the era of universal education were drafted into the army. In addition, in 1939, deferrals from military service for students were canceled. But still in 1940 only 10% of those called up for active military service could boast of full secondary or higher education, and 65% of conscripts had incomplete secondary education (from 6 classes and above). A quarter of all Red Army soldiers did not graduate from the six classes. Obviously, the educational level of the soldiers of the Red Army was significantly inferior to the level of education of a potential adversary (Wehrmacht). When, during World War II, older men began to be called up (in total, 29,5 million people were mobilized during the war), the educational level of the Red Army fighters became even lower.

    Prussian professor Oskar Peschel, on the occasion of the victory of Prussia in the war with Austria in 1866, wrote that "public education plays a decisive role in the war." The statement did not lose its justice 75 years later, especially in the conditions of equipping the army with modern military equipment and mobile warfare. "

    And now about the reserves:

    First, the USSR remained a peasant country. The rural population was twice the urban population (114 million and 56 million, respectively, the figures are rounded), two-thirds of the population (67,1%) lived in rural areas. The Great Patriotic War was to become the last "peasant war" in the history of Russia.

    Secondly, the level of education of the population was very low. As of January 1939, almost a fifth of the country's population (18,8%) was illiterate. True, the level of illiteracy among the population aged 9-49 was lower - 10,9%. The literacy criteria that were guided by the scribes were peculiar: the ability to read syllables and write your surname in your native or Russian language. There were 1000 people with a higher education per 6,4 people and 77,8 with a secondary education (moreover, those with an incomplete secondary education - 7 classes) were included in the column "secondary education".

    https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/1662732
  • yehat2
    yehat2 5 July 2020 21: 36
    0
    But really, who can comment more on the behavior of the gear?
    resource, service, possible limitations and problems?
    As for me, a balanced machine allows you to spend a couple of months especially worrying about reliability in the trenches, and then go into the workshop for maintenance once.
    Otherwise, what for do we have a machine gun - let's use a club or sword, they certainly will not refuse.
  • bad
    bad 5 July 2020 23: 11
    +6
    The Kalashnikov assault rifle is widely known in Russia to almost everyone. It is able to disassemble and assemble any student who did not skip lessons OBZH

    Of course, they bent about schoolchildren. When it was? Half of those "schoolchildren" are already retired. There are no weapons in schools now!
  • Pamir
    Pamir 5 July 2020 23: 27
    0
    In fact, all the assault rifles of the Russian Federation of the 21st century, this is Mikhail Kalashnikov’s basic assault rifle, the question is that not one of them has striking advantages under different conditions of use over Kalashnikov.
    What has been changed? Gate group? Gas outlet? Trunk treatment? Make parts fit, in hundredths? Make a different mechanism for supplying cartridges? Yes, they can be changed, but in conditions of precipitation, dirt, sand, vegetation enters the gate group with earth, clay, fragments of stones, playing with remakes, a cruel joke. The guys who ran, crawled at the training grounds in the mud in March-April, October-November? I crawled for weeks with the AK74 under my belly and over the tailbone. And I felt how everything and everyone in the reality of nature and climate AK catches unnecessary items. It's not about the illiteracy of the fighters, but in the time pressure of the time, now everyone is quite literate. It’s elementary to knock out a skewed cartridge, AK, or AKM, such a chance will be provided in a critically important environment.
    Mikhail Kalashnikov, solved the question perfectly, but for his own and for the present, the question is in the future.
    It is necessary to invent small arms operating on other physical principles, and such Mosin-Kalashnikov-Simonov-Dektyarev-Fedorov-Dragunov will soon be in Russia.
    And the Kalashnikov assault rifle, decided its business for its time, and here it is useless to invent the forty-sixth spoke, to the existing forty-five spokes. This will not give the principle advantage, regardless of caliber.
  • Inspector
    Inspector 6 July 2020 19: 48
    0
    this very "caliber" is betrayal. Read Lemke - nothing changes.
    1. agond
      agond 7 July 2020 13: 30
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      It seems that the differences that are available in the A-545 do not give special advantages over the AK-12
  • Kaw
    Kaw 10 July 2020 12: 55
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    What do we have as a result. A significantly complicated and heavier automatic, which differs from the AK only in a slightly higher accuracy and an exact copy of the AK-74 with Picatinny rails installed on it. Vryatli AEK will be as reliable as AK, the more complex the mechanism, the greater the likelihood of marriage and the greater the likelihood of clogging and jamming of moving parts.
    Both of these machines (AK-12 and AEK) are unsuccessful, you should not spend money on their production, the combat efficiency of the army will not grow from this, but millions will be spent. It is better to develop a simple machine with balanced automation, such as an earlier version of AK-12 or buy a license for some kind of imported model. IMHO
    1. Droid
      Droid 11 July 2020 07: 54
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      Balanced automation (AEK, yeah) is not needed, the early AK-12 failed reliability tests, an imported sample is also not needed because there is no such sample that is more effective than the AK74. The best option was not to challenge the competition, but to force the spacecraft to resume the production of the AN-94, to normally introduce it into the troops, and to finalize it according to the results of the operation. Do you want AN-94? Here you have a modernized AK74M called AK12 and do not buzz.
      1. agond
        agond 13 July 2020 10: 35
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        The Kovrovites could try to create an assault rifle chambered for 5.45x39 with a free breechblock, but not with a banal blank on a spring, as it was in the PPSh or others, already in the second half of the last century, special drummers with an increased rebound time are known, that is, the duration of the rebound can be close to the duration of the shot, although for this the "blank" must have a special internal device, but it will be sealed and cannot be disassembled
  • Yellow bubble
    Yellow bubble 11 August 2020 14: 49
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    Finally began to normally and 545 to release the mind picked up uraaaaaa.
  • frizzy
    frizzy 27 August 2020 19: 16
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    I’ll probably buy two if you don’t mind !!
  • Baron pardus
    Baron pardus 27 August 2020 19: 26
    0
    Generally, producing 2 different types of machines is more expensive than producing one. If both samples show the same reliability and durability, the one that is better in terms of accuracy should be produced. In battle, every little thing matters. With shouts "it will be cheaper" you can generally arm the army with SKSs.