The Dutch court presented "evidence" of the launch of the Buk air defense missile by militia

Dutch prosecutors continue to claim that in the summer of 2014, Boeing MH17 was shot down by militia using the Buk anti-aircraft system. In favor of its version, the prosecutor's office provided a record of telephone conversations allegedly recorded at the scene.

According to the prosecution, from the negotiations submitted by the prosecutor’s office, it follows that the Buk missile was launched by militias. With this launch, the Donbass militia tried to bring down a Ukrainian military aircraft, as evidenced by the record of negotiations. In particular, the suspects of the Dutch court Leonid Kharchenko and Sergey Dubinsky spoke specifically about the downed Ukrainian plane, and when calling another person involved in the case, Oleg Pulatov, the latter said that Buk shot down Sushka.

At the same time, the prosecution emphasizes that on that day, except for flight MH17, there were no other aircraft in the sky over the Donbass and the militia did not shoot down any aircraft. Moreover, fragments of the Buk missile were found in the wreckage of a passenger plane.

Earlier, prosecutor Theis Berger said the prosecution had a witness who allegedly saw "four soldiers in tank helmets", as well as the launch of the Buk air defense missile itself. The identity of the witness is not disclosed, he passes in court as X48. It is also reported that the witness allegedly saw the Buk air defense system driving along the road from Snezhnoye to Saur-Mogila.

Comments

[Ross xnumx]

Earlier, prosecutor Theis Berger said that the prosecution had a witness who allegedly saw "four soldiers in tank helmets", as well as the launch of a Buk missile system.

Didn’t you say anything about satellite imagery in the USA?
There will be no money from Russia ...

It is also reported that the witness allegedly saw a Buk air defense missile system passing along the road from Snezhnoye to Saur-Mogila.

Maybe he is

will tell you what Father Varlaam and Grishka the impostor talked about "on the Lithuanian border

[Thrifty]

Is the farce going on? How much will this pseudo-court amuse the adequate inhabitants of the planet with its stupid "conclusions and decisions"? ??

[Snail N9]

The funniest thing is the so-called "rocket", which appears as material evidence, clearly delivered from some test site, where such ammunition is detonated on a regular basis, in order to verify that they remain functional after storage. I saw during my service (back in Soviet times), the fragments of such missiles, after they were routinely fired at an air target and fell from a height of several thousand meters - from them there are pieces, twisted to the point of impossibility, torn into pieces of irregular shape. And here, there are practically intact parts, even without dents. The funny thing is that everyone thinks this shit is proof ...

[Vicontas]

In the Netherlands, drugs are officially allowed! It looks like the prosecutor is refueling them so much that he considers his version of the prosecution to be true! I agree with the version that the Dutch special services themselves arranged a showdown in the air! Therefore, they will defend their nonsense against the horns!

[Fotoceva62]

For us, drugs, but for the prosecutor, a source of inspiration and a means of investigation ...

[Cossack 471]

honestly. I also saw rocket fragments in the battlefields at the Balkhash-9 training grounds (SAM 200 Vega) and twice at the Ashuluk training ground. Volga platform -8 (SAM-75 Volkhov M-3) And as a rule, the nose of the rocket was turned apart. and then everything was whole I ordered the soldiers to remove stabilizers from the PRD-58. because usually during training the lower stabilizers smashed against the boom of the PU. Everything was removed normally. But they did not touch the marching part of the missiles. there remained the remnants of the oxidizing agent and fuel and the air in the balloon balloon and unexploded squibs And so usually the marching part of the rocket (pipe) was practically the whole

[Serg koma]

Quote: Cossack 471

I also saw rocket fragments in battlefields at Balkhash-9 training grounds

But did shooting ever take place at Balkhash-9 ??? Or do you confuse the name of the polygons?
The purpose of "Balkhash 9" is on alert duty at the RLC - you were brought somewhere in the wrong place in secrecy mode

[demo]

The court is a farce and a farce.
No doubt about it.
The consequences for Russia - you can laugh.
If you want.

[Russobel]

The consequences for Russia - you can laugh.

In Holland, to laugh, but no question ...
And legally.

[demo]

Already not funny.

[pytar]

Hi Wang! Unfortunately, the situation is not at all in favor of the accused ... There is too much evidence, moreover, such that they cannot be ignored. I remember on the evening of July 17, 2014, on DPR TV channels and even on Russian ones, they showed a report about how the militia shot down a "Ukrainian military transport"! Into the area where MH17 was shot down! The next day, all of these cadres disappeared ... There are few people in the world who already doubt that it was the militia that shot down Boeing. In war, tragic mistakes happen.

[demo]

Hello, Boyan.
I do not condone, but maybe there is such a story.

There is a conflict.
Who will defeat whom?
In order to raise morale, could they even launch a desu?
With good goals, as you understand.
And then this tragedy!
Naturally, they cleaned and cleaned everything.

But it could also be this: in those structures that were responsible for the information field of the DPR there were people who did not share the views of those who, with arms in their hands, began to fight against the Nazis.
And the same could be?

These are just working hypotheses and nothing more.

It’s clear to me, though not a rocket launcher, but who has served in the army, that shooting down an airplane is not from a sparrow’s slingshot (it’s also not easy).
A lot has been written about this. And many.
And the most important thing.
Any operation should have some goals.
Shoot down for the sake of simple courage - this is not the case.
What is the benefit of the DPR (and let Russia) from this crime?
None.
And to hide real participation in such an operation is not possible.
Unless you have been appointed guilty.

If you look at all this from the point of view of Kiev, then there are a lot of preferences for him.
And the world condemnation of atrocities, and sanctions against the geostrategic enemy - Russia, and revenge for the Crimea and a lot of extra pluses.

I am always interested to consider any event from the point of view - profitable or not.
There are exceptions.
But not in this case.

I hug
With God.

[pytar]

Bearing in mind how often mistakes occur during military conflicts, I still tend to believe that this is the case here. Sometimes the losses from "friendly fire" are greater than from the enemy! In Donbass, the front will be blurred, communications are not well-established, anything can happen. Unintentional hit on an incorrectly identified target! Probably the calculation did not have the necessary experience, and the situation was extremely tense! It looks like the case in Tehran. I understand that it is hard for an ordinary person to accept such an unpleasant situation, but unfortunately for a war, anything can happen.

With God, my friend!

[demo]

Boyan.
Well wait to make such "gifts".
"The front is blurred, communications are not established, the target is incorrectly identified, the calculation did not have the necessary experience, the situation is tense."
Listed everything?
Come on then.
Beech - Russian.
He was brought and left in the DNI.
The numbers destroyed everything, otherwise God forbid the Ukrainians get there, you won’t get grief.
Calculation began to form from the local.
At the time of events, and this is 2014, there were probably no specialists who would know and know how to use the equipment. And if they were, then they served in the air defense for a very long time.
From the open data of Ukraine you can find out when the specialists of these higher educational establishments were called up for training and retraining.
Moving on.
One Buk is a weapon, but not what you need.
Also in the kit you need a charging machine, a detection and target designation station, a launching and loading machine (if this is a one-time operation, but transferred for a long time so that Ukrainian letaki fly around the region, otherwise the air conditioners explode in Donetsk) and the headquarters machine.
One Buk does not solve the problems with Ukrainian aviation.
And where are the rest?
Some coded witness "saw four people in headsets" and also saw a rocket launch.
An encrypted witness is crap.
Such a witness will not even be allowed on the threshold in any court.
He just then could change the whole biography and the country of life.
Faith to such a statement is not and cannot be.
This is a setup.

Let's go further.
We gathered the men and explained "where to aim and which button to press."
Clicked and hit!
What do you think about that? Stupidity is natural.
All right.
The rockets were brought from Russia. North wind brought.
But they need to train more than one day.
And then the war is real.
I think that from their participation there would be no more sense.

So think about what kind of aces and where they come from, that they could work on this technique.
I have a rich fantasy, but I also lack it.

And more.
Almaz-Antey conducted field tests of his system.
Interested in results in Holland?
Нет!
Ballistics proved that it was not possible to launch from the territory of the DPR (forgot the name of the area), based on the presence of holes in the fuselage.
Is anyone interested in this?
Yes, no!
According to the numbers of the rocket, they found out that it was from warehouses located in western Ukraine.
Did this take into account?
No.
The striking elements of modern Russian Bukov and those that were found in the bodies do not correspond to each other. Is this taken into account?
Нет!
What is needed for an impartial trial?
The testimony of the dispatchers from the Ukrainian side.
Data from American satellites that were in orbit at that time.
And we arrived.
But when someone is appointed guilty, everything is done so that all necessary doubts are interpreted against.
Although in ALL jurisdictions of ALL countries there is a concept - the presumption of innocence.
Any doubt can be interpreted only in favor of the accused, and not against him.
Here the picture is the opposite.
Don’t worry Boyan.

True - this is such a thing that anyway it will crawl out.
As an awl from a bag.
Have a rest, friend.

[pytar]

True - this is such a thing that anyway it will crawl out.

No doubt about it! But it will not be soon! Zeroing has gone ...
With all that, I hope your situation will be normal.!

[Serg koma]

Quote: pytar

But it will not be soon! Zeroing has gone ...

The burning of the Reichstag in 1933 and the accusation of the Communists is an example - the truth did not open soon, but very soon played an important role in strengthening the Nazi power in Germany.

[pytar]

The burning of the Reichstag in 1933 and the accusation of the Communists is an example - the truth did not open soon, but very soon played an important role in strengthening the Nazi power in Germany.

Such a technique is often used in domestic and foreign policy. But let's not forget that Georgy Dimitrov still managed to prove his innocence in a Nazi court! At the same time, Stalin's "courts" killed tens of thousands of innocent people on false charges. I remember the incident with Georgiy Dimitrov again! When he, the Hero from Leipzig was greeted solemnly in Moscow, Stalin told him this phrase: "You managed to save, because the Nazis are badly judged ... you must first shoot, and then judge. Then they would not have a problem." ...
I'll tell you one more fact about G. Dimitrov! After the victory of the communists in Bulgaria, G. Dimitrov became the leader of the party and state. To initiate internal party purges, camps, gulags. The lists with persons subject to liquidation, which were presented to Stalin, also featured .. Georgy Dimitrov! The most ardent Stalinist, he came into conflict with Stalin for some questions! At the last moment, Stalin crossed him out of the list, in view of the fact that Dimitrov was very popular in the international communist movement. But another ardent Stalinist was unlucky ... Traicho Kostov, the man leading the anti-fascist struggle in BG to the place, was "condemned" as a "British spy" and liquidated. Things were happening.

[ccsr]

Quote: pytar

I’ll tell you one more fact with G. Dimitrov!

You don’t talk about our teeth - here we are not talking about arson, but about a specific missile defeat of a civilian aircraft. So do not wag with Dimitrov - he is a hero for us, and for you now he is almost a state criminal.

[Serg koma]

Quote: pytar

But let's not forget

The first is the background of history and its results in Germany after February 27, 1933. They blamed the communists for usurping power (Boyan’s brevity, brevity!) Why are you here and the post-war Bulgaria?

The second is Stalin’s sarcasm (I wonder if it was Stalin himself who told you, or Dimitrov), supporting documents of Stalin’s words in your hands?

And third - "But the fact remains that the Russian nation turned out to be stronger and more enduring in this crazy war, and I would not be surprised if salvation for the white race comes from the East. It will be logical." A. Hitler - from an interview, was recorded the day before Hitler's suicide by Kurt Speidler (not 100% confirmed)

[pytar]

The first is the background of history and its results in Germany after February 27, 1933. They blamed the communists, usurped power .... Why are you here and the Soviet Union drag and post-war Bulgaria?

Dear, you have raised this topic. She really is not true. I answered you.

The second is Stalin’s sarcasm (I wonder if it was Stalin himself who told you, or Dimitrov), supporting documents of Stalin’s words in your hands?

This is from the book "Georgy Dimitrov - Critical Biography", written by Mona Fascolo. It also mentions that Tsar Boris I interceded before the Germans for Dimitrov.

"But the fact remains that the Russian nation turned out to be stronger and more enduring in this insane war, and I would not be surprised if salvation for the white race comes from the East. It will be logical." A. Hitler.

I know the passage data. Sometimes Hitler also told the truth ... I have only one doubt - the white race and in Russia is not quite white ...

[Motorist]

Quote: pytar

the white race and in Russia is no longer completely white ...

Minus for inciting.

[pytar]

Minus for inciting.

what are you ?! I myself am black as coal!

[your1970]

Quote: demo

The striking elements of modern Russian Bukov and those that were found in the bodies do not correspond to each other. Is this taken into account?
Нет!

There is more fun - they found TWO type of striking elements !!!!

[Albert1988]

Quote: your1970

There is more fun, they found TWO types of damaging elements !!!!

Rather, they did so — at first they found one type — they were flailing, because he didn’t get away from modern Russian missiles, but very much from Ukrainian ones. Then they learned what type of destructive elements in Russian missiles and already found it ...

[Region68]

Himself invented himself disproved ..
Well done

[ccsr]

Quote: pytar

Unintentional defeat on an incorrectly identified target!

Stop bending, Gabrovian - do you even have any idea what the combat calculation of the air defense system is? And the fact that you will not include a miner or a taxi driver in it until you run it in for six months in training, and then they will do some good training before putting such a person on the post. In general, burn on, you still do not have faith.

[pytar]

Stop bending, gabrowiec

Here the Gabrovians cut the tails of cats, there is such an anecdote!

What is the combat calculation of an air defense complex? And the fact that you will not include a miner or a taxi driver in it until you run it in for six months in training, and then they will do some good training before putting such a person on the post.

And there is! With all this, the crash of the mistake of passenger airliners happened more than once! Do you remember the Americans about the Iranian airliner shot down over the Persian Gulf? A South Korean over Sakhalin? Recently, Iran shot down the Ukrainian! Ukrainians during the exercise also shot down one over the Black Sea! Even Bulgaria has had such a case since the 50s. A fighter shot down an Israeli civilian aircraft by mistake.

In general, burn on, you still do not have faith.

You know, believers and unbelievers do not really bother me ...

[Cyril G ...]

The calculation of the air defense system is not ZU-23, without adequate preparation it’s not enough to hit, but they will not be able to shoot. These both shot and hit.

[nemez]

But you yourself believe in all dick.

[Region68]

Somewhere I read the version about the informant at some Ukrainian airfield .. the SBU followed him .. He gave the info when the plane flies into the combat zone .. He was arrested, the flight of the Ukrainian Armed Forces was canceled, and Buk waited without knowing about it ..

[Cyril G ...]

Tell me what. And then on the stage, read quite in the zone of defeat of Ukrainian Bukov 156 air defense missile systems of the Air Force there are fragments of the liner. Moreover, the VVSU denies the loss of a regiment in Donetsk. The regiment is fully withdrawn to the territory controlled by the Junta. Where did SPU come from July 17?

As for the report, you are fed poisoned meat, this is another report.

[pytar]

Tell me what.

Look for the video from Vadim Lukashevich. They are many and in them he gives answers to all possible questions. At first, looking only at the Russian media, I was convinced that the downing of MN17 was a Ukrainian-American provocation. Some obvious unstable and contradictory in them, gave in haste. But from time to time, a lot of things became known and the puzzle contracted logically.

As for the report, you are fed poisoned meat, this is another report.

The authenticity of this report is confirmed. The court accepted the ego as evidence. Frankly, even earlier I was perplexed when I looked at a series of mutually contradictory statements and statements of the Russian Defense Ministry. It was obvious to him that something was wrong ...

[Cyril G ...]

They are many and in them he gives answers to all possible questions.
Look for the video from Vadim Lukashevich.

I know that. This is the same illiterate epic eeeee stupid person. Which inspiredly lied that, for example, Buk’s calculation is not able to determine the speed of the target. They say that the An-26 military-technical transport with a parade speed of 450 km / h and a huge airliner at an altitude of three times the higher echelon An and at a speed twice as high as not less than 900 km / h. This is enough for me to consider him a vile liar ... Then the really stupid Vadimka began frantically rewriting his libel. But people remember that ...

The court accepted the ego as evidence.

Periodically hearing what kind of nonsense the members of the so-called tribunal bear, they will even believe in the Scarecrow of the wise with a head full of sawdust .....

when I looked at a series of mutually conflicting statements and statements of the Russian Defense Ministry. It was obvious to him that something was wrong ...

Of course not. The so-called partners, having killed the liner with three hundred souls, completely outplayed Moscow, which started well, but was unable to complete the gambit effectively in the conditions of tsutswang, and therefore, in the end, I had to listen to the terms of the "water truce" ...

[pytar]

This is the same illiterate epic eeeee stupid person.

Somewhere I looked at a poll, according to which 3% of Russians believe that Boeing was shot down by the militia. Here on VO their probably 0%. For the rest, everyone who claims that it is so will be "stupid people." They won't even listen to him. The phenomenon is well known to psychologists.

[Dmitry10SPb]

Naturally, zero.
Strelkov clearly said that the Boeing militia did not bring down. And in this I believe him. To the question of who shot down, it is better to answer this way: look at it and keep silent. It has long been obvious.

[pytar]

Naturally zero

This is not natural. Masculine psychosis is not a normal condition for societies.

Strelkov clearly said that the Boeing militia did not bring down.

I would be wildly surprised if he said that they shot down ...

It has long been obvious.

The evidence here is controversial ...

[ccsr]

Quote: Dmitry10SPb

Strelkov clearly said that the Boeing militia did not bring down. And in this I believe him.

It is not even a matter of Strelkov’s statement, which cannot be an official representative of Russia, but the whole problem is that the Americans do not want to lay out to the Dutch investigators all the intelligence they have about the downed Bring. And they have it, and it directly proves that Russia has nothing to do with this matter, and all the blame lies with the Ukrainian authorities. That is why they refuse to show anything for the investigation, and this is a head betraying those who are trying to hang this catastrophe on Russia.

[aszzz888]

pytar (Boyan Ivanov) Today, 00:40
-1
This is the same illiterate epic eeeee stupid person.

Somewhere watched a pollaccording to which 3% of Russians believe that a militia shot down a Boeing. Here in VO they probably 0%.

last name of the opinion poll? And do not strain for VO, it is not given. !!!!!!!!!

[pytar]

last name of the opinion poll? And do not strain for VO, it is not given O !!!!!!!!!

I don't remember exactly, but it was in Russia. website. What is not given, it is not given ... I assure you, I am not straining in any way. From the word "absolutely".

[boris epstein]

There is a documentary on the Internet: "The Whole Truth About MH17: A Sensational Investigation by the SBU Colonel" SBU-Security Service of Ukraine. SBU Colonel Vasily Prozorov conducted the investigation while still in the ranks of the SBU. Then he moved WITH ALL DOCUMENTS to the side of the DPR and ended up in Moscow. Do not be lazy, take a look. There are specifically named surnames. From me. Until I see American satellite images and the dispatcher of the Ukrainian airport Anna Petrenko, until they explain to me why the BUK with tactical number 312 156 of the anti-aircraft missile regiment of the air defense of Ukraine was transported on a trailer through Debaltseve and Krasnoarmeisk (both cities in 2014 were in the hands of Ukraine, and Krasnoarmeysk is still in their hands), according to that Dutch group of investigators, I will not believe that the BUK was Russian. By the way, find on the maps the GUGL Snezhnoe, Debaltsevo and Krasnoarmeysk. To export BUK to Russia through Debaltsevo, occupied by Ukraine? Nonsense. But there is a road from Snezhnoe through Anthracite of the Luhansk region. But there was no BUK in Anthracite. In addition, to take the BUK from Snezhnoe through Debaltseve to Krasnoarmeysk-Kryuk is 360 km. And the cherry on the cake. Last year, the 156th anti-aircraft missile regiment of the air defense of Ukraine participated in the parade in Kiev on the day of independence. This regiment is the only one in Ukraine equipped with BUKs.

[nemez]

I am amazed at your masochism. Bulgarians still want to go back to the Ottoman

[pytar]

And then the Bulgarians ?! I express my personal opinion. People think differently. Let there be alternative points of view!

[akarfoxhound]

Evidence that cannot be refuted, including technical, was provided by Russia. But due to inconvenience they were put out of the investigation. All real witnesses / participants from the Ukrainian side, like the pilot and the dispatcher, "suddenly died suddenly." Your amerikoskie friends also all sorts of objective control from the same space "suddenly" classified. The Malaysians, whose liner fell - nafig was sent with an investigation, the ukrikov were left (and they have to do with it, right? Moreover, their "nothing to do" was installed by the West right away - the wreckage did not have time to cool).
And only western people from convenient pieces of incomplete Dutch vagabond diligently pull an owl on the globe for their production version.
The world and you, gentlemen of the Westerners, are not the same, neither in volume, nor in quality, nor in quantity.

[pytar]

Evidence that cannot be refuted, including technical, was provided by Russia.

Do you seriously believe that if the militia really hit the Boeing, Russia will provide objective evidence?

[aszzz888]

Evidence that cannot be refuted, including technical, was provided by Russia.

Do you seriously believe that if a militia really knocks down a Boeing, Russia will provide objective evidence?

What do the Merikatos satellites say? Huh? They are silent ...
And why? Huh?
And where is the info from the dispatchers unnecessary? Huh?
Where are they themselves? Huh?
And many more, many why and where!

[pytar]

What do the Merikatos satellites say? Huh? They are silent ...

Yes, they are not silent, the court reviewed the data from them. Of course, they won’t show it in the public domain, because this will reveal the characteristics of reconnaissance satellites. In such cases, the court operates according to the logarithm prescribed in the rules.

And many more, many why and where!

There are many questions, especially to the theses presented by Ross. side. By the way, she is not yet a side to the matter, in the classical understanding of this concept. The accused are personally responsible until a connection is established between them and Ross. authorities.

[Cyril G ...]

Why are you lying? The Dutch were denied access to objective control data. But the so-called Dutch judges feed each other with fairy tales that they supposedly showed pictures to someone from afar, and there he personally saw Buk with the Russian flag with an area of ​​20 sq.m.

[Cyril G ...]

The United States did not provide objective evidence, hinting that they have a shot, but we will not show it ...
This is also a marker. So for me the culprit is obvious. The liner is destroyed by order from Washington. Removed the figure received the game.

[pytar]

The United States did not provide objective evidence, hinting that they have a shot, but we will not show it ...

Granted, respected ... There are defined procedures by which the court becomes familiar with the evidence and decides whether or not to accept it.

So for me the culprit is obvious.

Captain obvious? Well, you and I can have completely different opinions on the issue, but the Judge decides!

[Serg koma]

Quote: pytar

Do you seriously believe that if the militia really hit the Boeing, Russia will provide objective evidence?

Do you seriously think that Ukraine, a member of the investigation team, will provide objective evidence of its guilt ???

[your1970]

Quote: pytar

Evidence that cannot be refuted, including technical, was provided by Russia.

Do you seriously believe that if the militia really hit the Boeing, Russia will provide objective evidence?

Then why Ukraine did not provide a record of negotiations of air traffic controllers? I have a feeling that at the most extreme moment, Russia will put this trump card ... And it will be a blow to the court ....

[pytar]

Then why Ukraine did not provide a record of negotiations of air traffic controllers? I have a feeling that at the most extreme moment, Russia will put this trump card ... And it will be a blow to the court ....

We are waiting ... probably everyone has additional trump cards.

[orionvitt]

Quote: pytar

on the evening of July 17, 2014, on DPR television channels

TV channels are not a source of truthful information. Journalists all over the world, in pursuit of a "sensation", all over the place, voice unverified information. On the issue of "intercepted conversations of militants", Malaysian experts have studied them for a long time. (and they are an interested party) Verdict, "evidence" is glued together from scraps of phrases, and very roughly at that.

[pytar]

I answered above, dear Kirril, on this question. There would be less doubt if the Russian Defense Ministry did not make mutually exclusive statements one after another. And there are a lot of questions to Antei-Almaz ... For an open-minded person, their position is very, very weak! And to argue with those who believe it is impossible to sell the Malaysian Boeing to the militia, "because this cannot be," for me personally there is no point. This is the type of people to whom no evidence or arguments will convince.

[Cyril G ...]

Quote: pytar

who think it is impossible to sell the Malaysian Boeing to the militias, "because this cannot be," for me personally it makes no sense.

So tell me what they shot down? Where did SPU come from, how did it end up in the right place at the right time. Where did the calculation prepared for the shooting come from. I have never fired from an air defense system, it just so happened. But still, when he taught. An unprepared crew cannot shoot. This is an axiom.

Quote: pytar

This is the type of people to whom no evidence or arguments will convince.

Are you talking about yourself right now?

[pytar]

So tell me what they shot down?

In court, all evidence presented. To the smallest detail straight.

Are you talking about yourself right now?

Not. I changed my mind watching the situation. Of course I can’t say anything unequivocally, because I don’t know everything. But it is certain that the theses on the Russian side look unconvincing.

[orionvitt]

Quote: pytar

This is the type of people to whom no evidence or argument will convince

What kind of evidence? They are not, from the word at all. Where is the main witness, that is, the dispatcher? Oh, he is gone. The whole investigation is closed. Even a goat understands who shot down and who covers whom. Here the matter is sewn not even with white threads, but with white ropes. You there in Europe generally went all the way, or you think that the whole world consists of nerds. So I grieve you, it’s not.

[pytar]

What kind of evidence? They are not, from the word at all.

Dear Vitaliy, the evidence is where it should be! To the judge! What you and I do not know, the court knows.

[Okolotochny]

i don't know

That is, you do not know, but you continue to blame the Russian Federation and the DPR with stubborn obstinacy. Interesting position, did not read, but blame.
the court knows.
And who are the judges ??? Why was the country that the downed plane belonged to was not admitted to the "investigation" and continues to be denied? And Malaysia says that everything is not as "unambiguous" as they say in court. You are a common victim of Western propaganda and brainwashing. No offense, this is a FACT. You do not know, but you state the "facts."

[pytar]

That is, you do not know, but you continue to blame the Russian Federation and the DPR with stubborn obstinacy. Interesting position, did not read, but blame.

Alexei, I draw my conclusions based on public information coming from all sides, including from Russia. I’m not blaming anyone! I believe the situation is the same with you ... Accordingly, your statements are no less controversial.

And who are the judges ??? Why was the country that the downed plane belonged to was not admitted to the "investigation" and continues to be denied?

This is not true, Alexey. You are clearly not in the know how the investigation was conducted and by what rules the Hague court works. By the way, the claims on the part of Russia to the court have no basis. Initially, Ukraine proposed that the case be looked at by the UN International Court of Justice, but the Russian Federation vetoed it.

And Malaysia says that everything is not as "unambiguous" as they say in court.

What "Malaysia" is it saying !? Have you heard from rus-media? The official Malaysian authorities clearly accept the Hague Court as having full competence. There is not a single official complaint from the Malaysian side and about the work of the investigation.

You are a common victim of Western propaganda and brainwashing. No offense, this is a FACT. You do not know, but you state the "facts."

No offense, but you’re the usual Russian priesthood. propaganda and further on the text ... I for the difference from you, looked / listened / read, / was interested in info from completely different sources. And I have no doubt that the court will give an honest, objective prosecution to the guilty!

[Okolotochny]

В

Have you heard from rus-media? Official Malaysian authorities,

https://www.pravda.ru/news/world/1239703-boeing/
https://mediarepost.ru/news/316581-premer-malayzii-prokommentiroval-hod-rassledovaniya-po-boeing-mh17.html
https://ruposters.ru/news/17-07-2019/premer-malaizii-rassledovanii?utm_source=yxnews&utm_medium=desktop&utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fyandex.ru%2Fnews
Boyan, is that enough for you? The official words of the Premiere of the country? It didn’t sound in your western media.
And where does the UN International Court of Justice ??? Russia understands that this will be a trial and defends its interests. The time has passed when we turned the other cheek, instead of the shocked one.

And I have no doubt that the court will give an honest, objective prosecution to the guilty!

That is, photos from social networks and interrogation reports of "X-Men" - do you admit fair and objective evidence ??? Boyan, I am a lawyer by education, I have many years of experience in operational work. I don’t need to pass off the disseminated information from the media as objective evidence. Question (as a professional) FIRST and MAIN - why did the investigation team at the scene not collect all the wreckage of the liner ??? That is, the main action "Inspection of the scene" was carried out (to put it mildly) not qualitatively, superficially. I generally keep quiet about the rest of the investigative actions.

[pytar]

Dear, Alexey, I promised my friends here that I would come out of the comments. I will keep my promise, at least for every line of your post, I made checks and I have conclusions. Follow the links to the original source in English. and you will see the difference in the meaning of what was said. The topic of the role of the media, one of their points on the case. By the way, our media, they write about all this in the central media. Give out all points of view. BNR / Bulgarian National Radio / came out with the headline: "Malaysia challenged the charges against Kam Rusia for dumping Boeing over Ukraine". The former Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad is quoted literally, by the way, he is an ardent anti-Americanist. Okay, that's all from me.

[aszzz888]

pytar (Boyan Ivanov) Yesterday, 23:09 PM
-4
I answered above, dear Kirril, on this question. It would be less than a doubt if the Russian Defense Ministry

And even less "there would be doubts" if Russian specialists were involved in the case, and not just cluck according to the Merikatos manual.

[pytar]

And even less "there would be doubts" if Russian specialists were involved in the case, and not just cluck according to the Merikatos manual.

They took part. For a few steps. For some reason you are in rus-media, they don’t talk about this ...

[demo]

Boyan.
The fact is that there is no need to argue.
The situation got out of hand.
More precisely, she has reached a dead end.
And it was not we-Russia that drove her into a dead end, but those who today set up a farce in Holland.
No matter how Russia fought, how it did not offer either its strength, nor its participation, nor its specialists, everything was rejected.
Why then should we argue.
And more.
To admit that in the ranks of those who are considered to be the militia there are people who knowingly, deliberately shot down a passenger liner, the death of which absolutely no one needs - this is for me, for Russians it is ABSOLUTELY not acceptable.
But you should understand that even trying to think like that is tantamount to pouring a bucket of slop on yourself, and on your family, and on your kind.
You can argue and discuss about a lot, about almost everything, but there are deep edges of national culture, traditions, customs that make up the soul of the people.
They do not argue about this.
And the Bulgarians have untouchable topics for communication.
You, if you can, leave this not a simple topic.
Otherwise, many will not have a very correct opinion about you.
Accept as friendly advice.

[military_cat]

Quote: demo

To admit that in the ranks of those who are considered to be the militia there are people who knowingly, deliberately shot down a passenger liner, the death of which absolutely no one needs - this is for me, for Russians it is ABSOLUTELY not acceptable.
But you should understand that even trying to think like that is tantamount to pouring a bucket of slop on yourself, and on your family, and on your kind.

Do you know what is even more shameful and trashy than shooting down a plane (by the way, by mistake) and admitting it? Shoot down a plane and lie that someone else shot it down. To issue a bunch of "irrefutable" and at the same time contradicting each other's evidence, it is hypocritical to worry about Malaysia, having previously vetoed its draft international tribunal at the UN. This is a real disgrace, and this can only be denied by those who think that they have successfully outwitted everyone with their lies, and no one understands what happened and continues to happen before their eyes.

[Cyril G ...]

Quote: military_cat

is it even more shameful and garbage than to bring down an airplane (by the way, by mistake) and admit it?

It’s most shameful to once again organize the destruction of the liner, to create an informational occasion for the attack on Russia. However, any crime can be expected from the clans that own and govern the United States

[pytar]

Friendly Van, I understand that for a number of reasons, the current government in the Russian Federation can not to admit. This would mean recognition of its direct intervention in the war in the Donbass. Therefore, they will be denied and beating to the end. They will pull and breed ships, they cannot do anything else.
In principle, there are 2 main points:
1. Boeing was shot down by Ukraine. It was a special operation with the goal of blaming Russia.
2. Boeing shot down the militia by mistake.
The first thesis is less likely. Such an operation poses too many risks for the conspirators. It cannot be guaranteed in a sufficient degree. Donbas is not only watched by the United States, all Russian intelligence systems work there ...
The second thesis is very likely. It happened more than once that even a well-trained military shot down a civilian plane by mistake. Remember when the US shot down an Iranian airliner over the Persian Gulf? Ukraine had aviation, no militia! Accordingly, the militia needed air defense.

You, if you can, leave this not a simple topic. Otherwise, many will not have a very correct opinion about you.

I always express only my personal opinion. There will always be people with a different opinion and there is no nationality.

Accept as friendly advice.

You're right, you can’t stick your finger in a hornet’s nest .. Thanks for the advice, I will answer the latest comments and come out of discussions.
Be well, Van!

[demo]

Donbass is not only watched by the United States, all Russian intelligence systems work there ...

Believe me, friend, the intelligence system of the Russian Federation is directed in the wrong direction.
We move away from the Boeing theme and return to the anticipated period.
All events unfolding in Ukraine were not only not monitored, but also stopped.
I know what I'm talking about.
I do not serve in intelligence. But people serve there .....
Those. any information that could violate the "harmonious policy" of the Kremlin was cut off.
And even those who had a name, authority and position were forced to simply contemplate what was unfolding there in Ukraine.
And only at the last moment, when Yanyk liquidated himself from fear and cried out, then a special operation was carried out.
And pay attention.
He, being 50-70 km from the border of the Russian Federation in the Kharkov region, was forced with a motorcade and escort to travel to the Crimea.
If our air defense systems were activated and operated towards Ukraine, then Yanyka would be loaded aboard in Kharkov.
And so - oh and alas.
And nothing has changed after the "dancing with saucepans".
Ukraine is a fraternal country, Ukrainians are a fraternal people, Mr. Putin said so.
By the way, I thought so, up to a point.
Now the opinion of the country and people has changed.

So the version that the Boeing could have been shot down from Ukraine is even more preferable with Ukrainian air defense systems.

And the idea was as follows.
Even if Ukraine is caught by the hand and prove its guilt, then it has every right to say - a mistake has come out.
They thought the Russian strategist popped to Kiev or somewhere else.
Ukrainians should not take the experience of lying about downed planes with passengers.

The completely dependent and servilely ingratiating government and the president of Ukraine before the United States would not only commit such a crime, but could also independently offer their masters such a middle game (I hope you play chess).

[Icarus]

In principle, there are 2 main points:
1. Boeing was shot down by Ukraine. It was a special operation with the goal of blaming Russia.
2. Boeing shot down the militia by mistake.

.
The most probable version by you, Boyan, is not even considered: An attempt by the Ukrainian air defense to bring down board No. 1 with Putin (who at one echelon separated for several minutes from the injured Boeing over Warsaw), but the Boeing was shot down by mistake.

[pytar]

The most probable version by you, Boyan, is not even considered: An attempt by the Ukrainian air defense to bring down board No. 1 with Putin (who at one echelon separated for several minutes from the injured Boeing over Warsaw), but the Boeing was shot down by mistake.

Dear Vladimir, I consider this version unlikely. For several reasons!
1. The sale of B1 with Putin would have promised Ukraine unimaginable problems. This would be an open manifestation on state terrorism. Terrorize your people, as it’s possible, but I’m not able to imagine what is possible. In short - benefits are much less than harm.
2. Such a probability is guaranteed to be taken into account by the services responsible for the safety of the first person of the Russian Federation. There are no fools sitting there! If they considered such a scenario possible, the B1 would fly exactly on a different route.
3. I am 100% sure that the B1 is equipped with the most advanced protection systems, which at the highest level protect the sides, from all possible threats. There is more risk for that madman who would decide on such than for the GDP itself.

[demo]

Point 3, Boyan.
Nobody knows for sure how and with what board No. 1 is equipped.
And those who know do not look at this site. And the secret data is not voiced.

Let's hypothetically consider the destruction of our president’s aircraft.
Shot down.
Error, they say. We are Ukrainians. We have such a national trait - to shoot down passenger planes.
What's next?
The declaration of war to Ukraine by Russia?
Or without immediately declaring "Calibres" in Kiev?
The absence of the head of state at the helm sharply reduces managerial opportunities.
If there was such an idea, then the main persons involved in this operation, from Ukraine, until that moment were somewhere in Rome, in Berlin, in Warsaw.
Just in case, as they say.
Minor figures naturally sit in Kiev.
We open the Internet and look at who and what did on the day of death, or for a couple of days.
If everyone was in Kiev, then - the version, so-so.

[pytar]

Let's hypothetically consider the destruction of our president’s aircraft.

Do not waste time on empty discussions! He just did not fly over Ukraine from the beginning of the conflict! This is a fact, a hypothesis meaningless.

[pytar]

bring down board No. 1 with Putin (who, on the same level, separated for several minutes with the injured Boeing over Warsaw), but by mistake they shot down a Boeing.

By the way I will give one more explanation so that there are no more questions in connection with this speculation!
Ukrainian air defense even if Pts wanted, could not bring down board number 1 from Putin. He could not become a target, since he did not fly over Ukraine. The plane’s wallpaper came with a slight time difference in an almost identical route to Warsaw, and then the routes diverged. Board number 1 flies to Sheremetyevo through Belarus, and MH17 to the south, over Donbas, further to Baku and Kuala Lumpur. Like that:


Not surprisingly, many believe in such absurd fakes! On Yandex, it was replicated in ... well, see for yourself ...

It is more surprising that so many people have not learned geography lessons at school.

[Icarus]

Dear Boyan. The version I have indicated has the right to exist with the others you have proposed equally. And whether it is unlikely or not, it is a value judgment, until the evidence has been examined to confirm or refute it.
It does not even occur to you that the Ukrainian side "possessed" at that moment (the "well-wishers of Russia" planted the countries, its own foreign intelligence service blundered, etc.) very "secret" information about the route of board number 1 of the Russian Federation? In this case (based on false information) they could easily confuse the aircraft. Why did the punishers have Buki in this area at all, and 9 radar stations were operating at that time, in the absence of aviation in the DPR?
You contradict yourself. We are "100%" confident that it is impossible to shoot down Airborne No. 1 due to the presence of defense systems on it "against all possible threats." And at the same time, you think that the special services of the Russian Federation took into account "such a scenario" and should not have laid a route through the airspace of Ukraine.
Special services of Ukraine could well not exclude the passage of Board No. 1 of the Russian Federation through the airspace of Ukraine, since at that time the airspace was not closed for international flights.
Why did you put out a map (which does not have a grid of the globe (latitude and meridians), on which the route of Board No. 1 from Warsaw to Moscow is drawn? Did you (or the Ukrainian side) know for certain, for example, at 12:17 on July 2014, XNUMX, that Putin is flying from Latin America via Warsaw to Moscow, and not to any other city in Russia. In addition, the Rossiya airline at about this time had several ships in the air with different routes from Brazil to Russia. And in the air, Putin could several times change its route depending on the tasks at hand, so the special services of Ukraine did not have such a picture at the time of the disaster.
In addition, the downing of Board No. 1 of the Russian Federation would not threaten Ukraine with any consequences from the West, since all the same, their media and all kinds of tribunals would announce that Buk did this from the territory controlled by the DPR.

[pytar]

Dear Boyan. The version I have indicated has the right to exist with the others you have proposed equally. And whether it is unlikely or not, it is a value judgment, until the evidence has been examined to confirm or refute it.

Dear Vladimir, each version has the right to exist. Including lightning strike, or UFO. The level of probability is still less. And yet there is no evidence in their favor. Your thoughts are based only on assumptions.

It does not even occur to you that the Ukrainian side "possessed" at that moment (the "well-wishers of Russia" planted the countries, its own foreign intelligence service blundered, etc.) very "secret" information about the route of board number 1 of the Russian Federation?

It doesn’t work that way. All flights are pre-agreed, traffic is monitored and controlled continuously. In principle, possible inconsistencies / deliberate or by mistake / between civil services and the military, and disasters caused by dispatchers sometimes occur.

Why was Buki at all in the area with the punishers, and 9 radar stations were operating at that time, in the absence of DPR aviation?

I followed closely the case. The investigation and the prosecutor’s office examined all sorts of versions. For each there is a conclusion. Airborne radars, work on tracking objects in the adjacent territory of Russia, the DNR does not have an air force.

You contradict yourself. We are "100%" confident that it is impossible to shoot down Airborne No. 1 due to the presence of defense systems on it "against all possible threats."

You are reading inattentively! I am 100% sure that the board number 1 is protected at the highest level. But he never said that it was impossible to bring him down!

And at the same time, you think that the special services of the Russian Federation took into account "such a scenario" and should not have laid a route through the airspace of Ukraine ..

Board number 1 from the beginning of the conflict did not fly over Ukraine. I did not fly at that time either. Although there are Ukrainian air defense systems, which theoretically can get it over Belarus.

Why did you lay out a map (not having a grid of the globe (latitude and meridian) on which the route of Board No. 1 from Warsaw to Moscow is drawn?

Grids do not change the situation, although they give a better view. Put them and see for yourself.

Did you (or the Ukrainian side) know reliably, for example, at 12 o’clock on July 17, 2014 that Putin flies from Latin America through Warsaw to Moscow, and not to any other city in Russia .... And even in the air, Putin could change your route several times depending on the tasks at hand.

Dear, all flight parameters and routes are known and controlled. They are standardized. This is similar to the movement of trailers on a multi-lane, multi-level highway. Putin can’t change anything, especially while in foreign airspace, without the coordination and permission of the air traffic controllers. This is not to drive cars around Moscow ... Look for info, IKAO, etc. Learn a lot of interesting things.

[demo]

Board number 1 flies to Sheremetyevo.
Amendment Boyan.
Board number 1 is deployed at the Moscow Vnukovo airport in a special government terminal "Vnukovo-2."
This is from the "other side of Moscow."
Although the role does not change.

[pytar]

Forget the tales of the board 1. Read this article, it in the summary gives an idea of ​​the real situation.
https://meduza.io/feature/2020/03/11/v-niderlandah-idet-sud-po-delu-o-krushenii-boinga-pod-donetskom-kogo-sudyat-v-chem-imenno-obvinyayut-i-chto-otvechaet-rossiya

[demo]

I read it.
Ну и что?
Which of what is written there was not discussed only with an iron and lawn mower?
Have you read it yourself?
How many assumptions and gaps.
Yes, in the most "bad" Ukrainian court, such a case would be sent for additional investigation.

One question and close the topic.
Why did the Ukrainian side methodically fire several days with large-caliber shells at the place where the wreckage of the plane lay?
After all, the Ukrainians were most interested in the fact that the "fault" of the LPR and the Russian Federation would be obvious and provable!
Take at least one bolt, move at least one part - this would be interpreted as an attempt to hide.

You live in your own world, the world of an established paradigm - Russia is always to blame for everything.
I have a different approach - there is no two-legged people (I can’t even name them people) meaner than the West and its satellites (don’t take it personally)
And the most brutal crimes against the Indians of the British come to mind while suppressing the sepoy uprising - the shooting of people from cannons. Fighting weavers in India - chopping off hands. Sitting on the Chinese opium.
Americans are excellent students who have repeatedly surpassed their teachers.
And by deceit, and by cruelty.

I do not doubt for a second that the plane was shot down by a Ukrainian missile.
Who gave the order - Americans to Ukrainians, or Ukrainians themselves came up with a proposal - it does not matter.
The heirs of Melnik and Bandera - the Turchinovs, Avakovs, Yatsenyuks and others - are such sadists and thugs, just like their praise of "heroes".

Your perseverance in this, many questions will lead to the idea that you are pursuing others, far from the search for truth and the triumph of justice, purpose.
Finish it.
I advise you again.

[pytar]

Van, you forced me! Let admins not be angry, but the truth is more important!

Direct recognition! With a bunch more in addition, with which the investigation operates!
And so, tragic mistakes happen in war! What should I have done in the eyes of the DPR and the Russian Federation immediately, as it became clear that the MH17 had been shot down?
1. DNR-Declare that there was a tragic mistake! Accuse Ukraine, and then with good reason that it intentionally with criminal intent sent over a combat zone a civilian plane with passengers on board! At the same time, Ukrainian aviation provoked air defense of the militia and carried out barbaric bombings over civilians of Donbass! State that the guilty of the militia, arrested and are under investigation! It guarantees that after finding out their guilt, they will be sent under the military tribunal of the republic! Expresses deep condolences to relatives and declares readiness to negotiate with their representatives for discussing the issue of compensation payments!
2. Russia - To declare that according to her information as a result of a criminal provocation by Ukraine, the air defense of the militia on a tragic mistake shot down a civilian plane. Demand from the DNI to immediately establish and punish the perpetrators! Demand from the international community to condemn the Ukrainian authorities for their actions! Declare that Russia is ready to become a successor and guarantor for the payment of compensation!
DNR is not an internationally recognized entity. No one can demand from him the extradition of the perpetrators or any other actions. Oddly enough, at some stage, this tragic incident would give the republics the opportunity to be legalized formally. Another ... to the question, where did Buk come from in the DPR? Yes, they bought illegally from about Abkhatsia! Disassembled, transported by sea, collected and defended from enemy aircraft!
The Russian Federation would take control of the situation, would become the leading one in its development! Iran recently did it and ... everyone made a noise, and then calmed down.
You see, Van, a recognized mistake is not a crime! Crime becomes when you start the gate, cheat and slip away!

Your perseverance in this, many questions will lead to the idea that you are pursuing others, far from the search for truth and the triumph of justice, purpose.

Let people think what they want. I think that power is in truth: whoever has the truth is stronger, Van! I know that your advice is quite friendly, well-intentioned. I am finishing my participation in the topic. I apologize if someone offended me.

[demo]

Boyan. Here you have indefatigable energy.
Vanity, in Russian.
Not only did I watch this video, but I was also forced to open the site of this Life News.
I'll start with the second.
An information channel that reprints or simply broadcasts other people's news.
Most likely without any authentication.
Second.
More precisely the first.
What is the video about?
Militias said.
What are the militias? Whose blood are they?
They stated that they shot down AN 26 of the Ukrainian Air Force.
Was the official statement by the authorities of the self-proclaimed LPR?
I did not see him.
The Air Force, the New York Times and dozens of other world media information media daily give mountains of lies and untested information.
The opinion of Trump (just in case, that purgomet - that is, the distributor of fakes) - American and world information systems is a fake news.

And did you believe what this blonde said?
She is a doll.
And the level of the source of information did not stir you up?
We have such a confidence indicator on our site - one grandmother said OBS.
So it is here.
I didn’t think you could get into such a cheap divorce.
You just look at those who give information, what information they give, what they rely on in their reports.
Even in the age of total lies, one can understand the level of competence and the level of truthfulness.

I already regretted visiting the site.
It was dinner. There was vodka. And here is such a disgrace without me.
Все.
I disconnect.

[Icarus]

Van, you forced me! Let admins not be angry, but the truth is more important!

For information: to identify a journalist’s comment with the truth (facts) is at least not smart. I am sorry for you Boyan, you are not objective in this matter, therefore I am stopping the debate with you.

[ccsr]

Quote: pytar

Another ... to the question, where did Buk come from in the DPR? Yes, they bought illegally from about Abkhatsia!

Stop lying, because this was not, and if it were, then the Americans would immediately calculate the coordinates and the origin of this Buk with a trial inclusion of its radar. You Gabrovian are illiterate in the work of the orbiting satellite intelligence systems of NATO and the USA, that’s why you’re hanging on your ears about this resource:

Life Channel (2013—2017)
The owner of the license for broadcasting the channel was the company Media Content LLC, whose beneficiaries were Aram Gabrelyanov and oil trader Surgutex[3].

As for the Life News news portal, this commercial organization has nothing to do with the official websites of Russia and the fact that they refer to some calls from the DPR only proves that the special services of Ukraine, which prepared the provocation in advance, specially organized them so that hang a crime on the militias. But you think too primitively, and it’s hard for you to understand how all this is really organized with the help of American intelligence agencies. Watch a movie about Snowden - maybe this will tell you at least something.

[Tuzik]

Boyan, you are a fat plus, chop here alone against the wool. It is always interesting to read different opinions.

[pytar]

Thanks for the support Andrew! I look at disputes as an opportunity to learn more. Look at situations from different angles! After all, everyone has their own truth, but the truth is the same ... I have no goal, someone to "win" or "get right", whatever it is! There are people with a complex of inferiority. They turn to rudeness when they have no more arguments. It doesn't affect my mood in any way! In fact, their inadequate reaction confirms the correctness of my thoughts!

[Tuzik]

I personally do not care who shot down the plane, people can’t be returned. I thought about something else, how does the one who pressed the button feel, I would not like to be in his place. You can burn in alcohol, and that will help little.

[pytar]

I thought about something else, how does the one who pressed the button feel, I would not like to be in his place.

And I was thinking about it! If that person has at least a gram of conscience, he must be unbearably hard. The fact of pleading guilty, repenting for acts, complicates the psychological situation even more. To admit a mistake, to beg forgiveness, as it removes part of the guilt. And silence, attempts to hide, turns her into a deliberate crime!

You can burn in alcohol, and that will help little.

Probably better suicides than tormented by threats of conscience. If it is, of course ...

[Leon68]

So look, in that case, at the pilot Voloshin

[Paranoid50]

Quote: pytar

Too much evidence

The trouble is the trouble ... And these are the same.

[aszzz888]

Paranoid50 (Alexander) Yesterday, 23:45 PM
+3
Quote: pytar
Too much evidence

laughing laughing laughing The trouble is poor ... And these there too. wassat

So it, pytar (Boyan Ivanov), fulfills his grannies. Hisses here, like water in a pan.

[aszzz888]

pytar (Boyan Ivanov) Yesterday, 20:31 PM
-22
Hi Wang! hi Unfortunately, the situation is not at all in favor of the accused ... Too much evidencewhile they cannot be ignored.

and which specifically?

[Crimean partisan 1974]

in the world no one doubts ....... in the world. sorry me. in the ass are filmed legally. heads are cut and states are turned into rubbish with enthusiasm, ... this is not an indicator .... the indicator is that if the militia really had a BUK at that time and experts who could work on it, then at that moment no one would be there flew and tragedy would not have happened. .... do not confuse a hunter’s transport brought down by landing from MANPADS where there isn’t much intelligence and the plane is at a level of 10 km, and this tragedy is not just Ukrainian headache as with a carcass in 2001. this is a planned operation and it’s been clear to everyone sane in the world how long ears stick out ... and suckers .... well, at least in the eyes of us ...

[Sanichsan]

Quote: pytar

In the world, few doubt that it was the militia that brought down the Boeing. Tragic mistakes are made in the war.

Well, then Hitler was a normal guy until 1939, and not bad even before 1944. No one condemned German genocide until 1944, although they knew about him. and so yes .... and the Skripals were poisoned, and the Boeing was shot down .. rockers from the bilingcat will not lie
in fact, Buk was not found and the militia did not have any evidence of its presence. Ukrainian rocket, no one conducted an investigation into the actions of Ukrainian crews in the area of ​​the downed plane.
Russia can simply ignore the results of this booth that they call the court and ignore its decision. By the way, after the adoption of the provisions on the supremacy of Russian laws over international, legally.
as you understand, the fact that Western society is completely under the influence of Western propaganda is not for Russia or LDNR the basis for taking the blame.
if they really need, the Balts can be appointed guilty. they will agree for very sovereign

[Civil]

1. There is no objective data.
2. In vain it all started.

[orionvitt]

Quote: Civil

In vain it all started.

Why is it in vain? West profited immediately. Even the wreckage did not have time to fall, and sanctions have already been imposed on Russia.

[Ragnar Lodbrok]

But who would doubt that there will be a trial, and not an impartial court ...

[Terenin]

Quote: Ragnar lodbrok

But who would doubt that there will be a trial, and not an impartial court ...

Regardless of the decision of the court, everyone knows that the militia did not have the means to bring down the aircraft at such a height.

[Ragnar Lodbrok]

Yes, it doesn’t matter to all of them there, the guilty parties were immediately appointed! A beech, which was driving along the territory controlled by Ukraine at that time, testimony ... They weren’t interested in anything at once ... Farce, not a court. All this would be ridiculous, if it weren’t so sad ...

[Terenin]

Quote: Ragnar Lothbrok

All this would be funny if it were not so sad ...

And, even that is enough for them, if only sadness was with us.

[Clear]

Quote: Terenin

Quote: Ragnar Lothbrok

All this would be funny if it were not so sad ...

And, even that is enough for them, if only sadness was with us.

Fear of Russia has haunted Western civilization for more than one hundred years, and reacts to it in its usual way - aggression.

[Nikolay Ivanov_5]

Luther Martin

Lies always meander like a snake, which is never straight, whether it creeps or lies alone; only when she is dead is she straight and does not pretend.

[paco.soto]

Lies always meander like a snake, which is never straight, whether it creeps or lies alone; only when she is dead is she straight and does not pretend. ©
Like definitely from me.

[Clear]

Quote: Nikolai Ivanov_5

Luther Martin

Lies always meander like a snake, which is never straight, whether it creeps or lies alone; only when she is dead is she straight and does not pretend.

Isn't it time to force her stop !?
About this, Luther Martin said:

"A lie is like a snowball: the more it rolls, the more it gets."

[Vasilenko Vladimir]

another nonsense
someone, someone, said something, when it is not known where it is not known how the record was made, generally history is silent

[Nikolay Ivanov_5]

they have all the "high-likes" there

[Klingon]

and this X48 is that special in military technology? immediately the type of air defense on the go so defined, or first rummaged in the internet? but where are the data from the radar which boards flew that day in this area in general? where are the dispatchers' negotiations with the civilian side, what the hell did he do there, why wasn’t he provided with a safe corridor? where were the brains of pilots who deliberately flew into the combat zone, why didn’t they request a backup route? you can still ask a dozen questions to the court

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Klingon

where were the brains of pilots who deliberately flew into the combat zone,

The pilots had brains, but no one deigned to send warnings, and, as always, at that moment, radio communication was lost, and the radars were on prophylaxis. All "kyrdyk" and it was at the time of the attack on the Boeing, and indeed the Cheburashka started up.

[New Year day]

Quote: Klingon

where the dispatchers are negotiating with the civilian side,

newspaper "Komsomolskaya Pravda"
09.09.14
17-00
"13:08:00 Malaysian one seven: Dnepropetrovsk tower, Malaysian one seven, flight level 300.

Dnepropetrovsk: Malaysian one seven, Dnepropetrovsk tower, good afternoon, welcome

Malaysian one seven: Malaysian one seven

The following is a fragment of telephone conversations:

13:19:21 Dnepropetrovsk: Yes

Rostov: Dnepropetrovsk, this is Rostov. Can you set the course for the Malaysian (liner) to Rostov to the point RND? And then ... "
https://www.kp.ru/daily/26279/3157475/

[Cristall]

Quote: Silvestr

Rostov: Dnepropetrovsk, this is Rostov. Can you set the course for the Malaysian (liner) to Rostov to the point RND? And then ... "

already in several Russian reports even audio has these talks. And here is a miracle - no Petrenko is there. Male voice from the Dnieper and male from Rostov.
Records and translations have long been everywhere. Including in audio format.

[Mountain shooter]

This is not even funny. Records of some telephone conversations are the basis of the accusation of a terrible tragedy ... And of course, did you conduct an examination of these conversations? And the records were provided by completely uninvolved SBU? Did they write everyone like that? Or specifically at this moment began to write these very people? A lot of questions ...

[Holgerton]

So without talking on the phone that day there was news on some republican channels that the militia shot down a Ukrainian transporter, even on the first channel they reported it. And at the end of the day a message came that a Boeing 777 was shot down ...

[Poetry]

At some point, Malaysia intensified, but then it suddenly disappeared from the radar. Apparently the older brother of the United States said something like: you’ll say you’ll suffer, after which Malaysia was blown away. But in fact this is their board, it was necessary to pull the court to Kuala Lumpur. Sad

[paco.soto]

Earlier, prosecutor Theis Berger said that the prosecution had a witness who allegedly saw "four soldiers in tank helmets", ©
With a smile: ya "supposedly I don't believe" in the detail with helmets out of movement during exercises, just in case

[Reserve buildbat]

The militia launched the Buk missile defense system from the knee (they did not have a complex). And before that, the militia forced the Shchiroskakuas dispatcher to send the plane into the reach zone of the Skakuas air defense with obscene requests, knowing that the "Tseuropeians" would not shoot. And they shot down a civilian board as part of the strategy "to spite my mother, I will frostbite my ears."
The Dutch are clearly abusing "substances" on an industrial scale.
But if it is serious, then the grounds for accusing the "investigative group" of libel and violation of the inquiry procedure are already above the roof.

[Cyril G ...]

Yes, the drug which the Dutch prosecutors are scamming for is really evil .... Parishes go mom don't worry.

[Clear]

Quote: Stroibat stock

But if it is serious, then the grounds for accusing the "investigative group" of libel and violation of the inquiry procedure are already above the roof.

They will be tried in Russia, and a lawyer should be appointed with a diploma obtained for "study" in remote control.

[sabakina]

It is also reported that the witness allegedly saw a Buk air defense missile system passing along the road from Snezhnoye to Saur-Mogila.

[K-50]

Dutch prosecutors continue to claim that in the summer of 2014, Boeing MH17 was shot down by militia using the Buk anti-aircraft system. In favor of its version, the prosecutor's office provided a record of telephone conversations allegedly recorded at the scene.

Only a dumb western man can be rubbed into the brain, that in the event of such an emergency they would be discussed by telephone

[Cyril G ...]

Clowning continues.
But didn’t the Ukrainians accidentally control Saur-Tomb?
And why satellite imagery why not? By the way, the fact that it was allegedly at the states suggests that this area was tightly controlled. By the way, as in the case of a sales liner near Tehran.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Cyril G ...

And why satellite imagery why not?

They found telephone records, but did not find satellite imagery. All this is no longer vague doubts, but simply "linden and crap."

[ximkim]

The court will sort it out and find the guilty. Guilty will receive with full.

[ccsr]

Quote: ximkim

The court will sort it out and find the guilty. Guilty will receive with full.

It's a delusion. The court will not look for the guilty, because they live in Ukraine, and they were ordered to wet Russia long before they received any evidence. The fact that this was a farce was understandable from the first days of the investigation, if only because so far Ukraine has not submitted records of dispatcher negotiations, and what goals their radars were monitoring at the time of the Boeing’s flight. Everything else can no longer be discussed - the concealment of evidence against the Ukrainian side is so obvious that it’s even funny to refute it.

[Clear]

Quote: ccsr

and they ordered the watering of Russia long before they received any evidence.

Well, what doubt can be.
B. Abama July 18, 2014

“We don’t have time for propaganda, we don’t have time for games,” B. Abama was determined, speaking in his speech about sanctions against Russia, which, according to him, should affect only the economy and citizens of Russia. The American president did not hide the fact that his country was ready to escalate sanctions against Moscow against the background of the tragedy of a Malaysian plane in the sky over Ukraine.

[New Year day]

Quote: ccsr

if only because so far Ukraine has not submitted records of dispatcher negotiations

"Moscow's comsomolets"
09.09.2014 at 15:28

https://www.mk.ru/incident/2014/09/09/rasshifrovka-peregovorov-dispetcherov-vo-vremya-krusheniya-malayziyskogo-boinga-my-ikh-razvernuli-oni-podtverdili-i-.html

[ccsr]

Quote: Silvestr

"Moscow's comsomolets"
09.09.2014/15/28 at XNUMX:XNUMX,

Read carefully what is written there:

Negotiations of Ukrainian and Russian dispatchers are announced, passing immediately after the fall of the liner in the Donetsk region.

And where are the negotiations of the dispatchers on the entire flight path of the aircraft, both the military and the air defense and air forces of Ukraine? This board was monitored by several structures, and in order to get the full picture it is necessary to analyze all the negotiations of different dispatchers.

[Cristall]

Quote: ccsr

The fact that this is a farce was clear from the first days of the investigation, if only because until now Ukraine has not submitted records of dispatcher negotiations

Of course I didn’t. Yes, if they had not provided, colleagues from Rostov would have provided immediately.

Quote: ccsr

and what targets their radar was tracking at the time of the Boeing’s flight.

were captured / under repair, as documented by the report. (Primary)

in general, no one showed primary data at the beginning.

[Sergey M. Karasev]

Quote: ximkim

The court will sort it out and find the guilty. Guilty will receive with full.

It's sarcasm?

[ximkim]

Not. And not to humor, so the carousel will spin after a court decision.

[Sergey M. Karasev]

This court, rather, will find the quadrature of the circle, and not the real culprits. And to reach those whom he will declare guilty, his hands are short. And the times are not the same ...
In short, this is an empty empty booth, not a court!

[Tatyana Sementsova]

And in the circus arena the Galandian prosecutor’s office !!! The highlight of the program is witness X 48, who saw everything !!!!! If I saw four tankers, then there must have been a dog nearby, and her name was Buk !!!! What missiles are you talking about then?
And how long will these clowns be dishonored?
Here it is --- EUROPE !!!!!!

[Shiden]

Sorry if I grieve you a little, you at least once drove in an armored car. When you ride without a tank helmet, your brains may rise to the right place. And the second thing is how the “BUK” differs from “CUBA”, then the irony in the comments will disappear.

[Cyril G ...]

If the trips of Bukov 156 air defense missile systems of the air force in the vicinity of the crash site of the liner, the court studied And the question of flights of the Air Force aircraft on that day?
I think no.
That's what the price means to the court.

[Poetry]

There, two men in sweatshirts were passing by and a harmonious harmonist. And what?! They arranged a circus, clowns.

[Ros 56]

Yeah, four in tank helmets, dragging a rocket across the sky.

[tihonmarine]

In favor of its version, the prosecutor's office provided a record of telephone conversations allegedly recorded at the scene.

And how to tie telephone conversations locally, and according to the affiliation of the negotiators. There, they submitted passport details and location, and then they negotiated. Soon, rumors will be proof. (They say there will be no more rumors, there are rumors that gossip will be banned.) Yes, and exactly how they filtered out precisely these people, and even after 6 years. In Ukraine, in a week you will not filter anything.

[Ham]

they did not "present evidence" they presented persimmons from the internet ...
which they passed to the SBU;)
any trainee lawyer will not leave a stone unturned from such a "evidence base"

[Dzafdet]

We need to ask the Dutch a simple question: who and why changed the flight path of a Boeing? And that’s all ...

[immobile2008]

Wrong protection chosen. From the very beginning it’s clear that the militias shot down, but the Ukrainian leadership sent it. Yes, there is one hundred percent fault of the leadership of Ukraine.

[123456789]

Is fecit cui prodest

look for someone profitable

[ender]

good question.
you can ask me, but the death of Sergei Zakharov - who benefits her?

[jekasimf]

Well, let’s say the militia squeezed out by Ukrov BUK were shot down. What does Russia have to do with it? Everything happened on the territory of Ukraine, the airspace was not closed. 6 years of sanctions against Russia?

[PValery53]

It remains for them to "add" to the accusation the recording of the conversations of the attendants on the blockage.

[tralmaster]

If Russia didn’t hammer, then sanctions should be lifted in this regard. This starburst will not allow. So the Dutch will have to lie to the end.

[Metallurg_2]

Highly-likely is the queen of evidence.
The papal inquisitors (and in no way Vyshinsky, who is credited with the famous phrase about confession) - turn over in tombs with envy.

[1536]

"I hammered a shell into the gun tightly ..." These Dutchmen at least had a conscience, scoffing at the memory of the people who died in this provocation. With the same success, one can say that the helmets on the "tankers" were American, and the rocket was produced at a secret Dutch factory somewhere in Eastern Europe, for example, in the "chess" republic, they were aimed manually, shot at the sound, aimed at the eye, and hit ... Okay, the Dutch or non-Danish people, whoever they like, are duped and brought to the position of dumb people, but after all, more than 7 billion people live on earth. And some shket with a German surname wants to make them complete fools ....

[svoit]

however, the prosecution emphasizes that on that day, except for flight MH17,

Lies and does not blush, on this day there were at least several flights, maybe about a dozen, all data is publicly available

With this launch, the Donbass militia tried to bring down a Ukrainian military aircraft, as evidenced by the record of negotiations

well, that’s okay, we’ll agree on that, there was no intentionality and that means guilt too.

[ender]

there was no intentionality and that means guilt too

Efremova can I let go?

[Lena Petrova]

Hans Christian Andersen was deprived of the laurels of the main storyteller by the British, with a story about the Skripals, then Rodchenkov, with a roulade about doping, and now the Dutch, with a fresh parable - МН17.

[Dmitry10SPb]

That is not all. German prosecutors accused the Russians of political murder. Montenegrin - in an attempted coup. Bulgarian ... And so on. If this is a fairy tale, then obviously not with a happy ending.

[APASUS]

I have evidence, but I will not show it, believe me by word.
I think this is a NEW PAGE OF EUROPEAN JURISPRUDENCE, it is such a time bomb that it will be laid down now that, based on this precedent, it will be possible to concoct any case

[Kerensky]

And why are we silent about our "most humane court in the world"? Who "... guided by a deep inner conviction .." decides what to accept in the evidence base and what not ..
One says that he signs 7.000 documents a day, the second - that Kamaz threw money to him while he went for bread. And they all nod their heads and shake their epaulets - yes, it happens ...
Yes, the hungry people studied with us!

[Mahony]

I hope these four boomerang will return for the killed people ..

[sergo1914]

Quote: Mahony

I hope these four boomerang will return for the killed people ..

Well, if you think sensibly - a boomerang will fly by these four.
Either in the real contractor, or in the one who gave the order.
Nobody put Manstein with Guderian on the count.

[kot28.ru]

So there are more than four there: Potroshenko and his Caudle, plus the curators from behind the puddle, and those who carried out the launch!

[sergo1914]

No, well, like a former air defense worker. And there is. We will discuss the situation on the mobile phones with the boys, and then a volley of all ... guns. And it was like that with Powers. And with a South Korean Boeing. I get this machine with two rockets. And I - with one. What nonsense?

[Shield]

we’ll not wait much, I think the guilty parties have already been appointed in this matter. No one will understand the fault is not to blame, the shot didn’t shoot ... the wretched is now fashionable, as the witness told me, he read about it on Instagram .... well and again everything is proved. Ukrainians are glad and we are satisfied ....

[Indifferent]

Right now we will accept the amendments to the Constitution and then they easily went with their court Drang NAH .... western! NAH ... this is the direction!

[Doctor]

Right now we will accept the amendments to the Constitution and then they easily went with their court Drang NAH .... western! NAH ... this is the direction!

It's not gonna go. After all, after the trial, they will begin to seize the foreign property of Russia as material compensation.

[Moskovit]

It’s normal to appoint guilty parties through negotiations.

For example, as the court decided in almost a neighboring country:

The Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) acquitted Swiss rider Nadia Peter Steiner in the case of a positive doping test taken from her horse.

This is reported by Horse and Hound. In 2017, after winning one of the competitions, tramadol was found in the horse's body.

The rider was able to prove in court that the banned drug was in the doping test of the horse by accident. 

According to the official version, the horse ate hay, which one of the representatives of the athlete’s team urinated on. This man admitted that he actually used tramadol as an anesthetic.

[pexotinec]

Everyone is trying to suck with a finger, but it does not work.

[Sergey Sfiedu]

Unfortunately, in the West, a series of evidence has been collected, voiced and filed to the case, which testifies that the Boeing was shot down by militias. Of course, we can say that this evidence is fake, but ... neither Russia nor the DPR have provided any sensible refutations and their counter-evidence. They stuck their head in the sand and pretend that nothing happened. Perhaps the best evidence is evidence of who actually shot down the Boeing. And the ostrich policy is a mistake. Even if the Boeing was actually shot down by the militias, no one canceled the criminal raids of Ukrainian aviation on residential areas of Donetsk, which launched the process of creating air defense in the DPR.

[Alexander Seklitsky]

Quote: Sergey Sfyedu

In the West, a series of evidence has been collected, voiced and filed to the case, which testifies that the Boeing was shot down by militias.

To begin with, where did the militia complex BUK come from ???

Quote: Sergey Sfyedu

They put their heads in the sand and pretend that nothing happened.

They have already argued many times, made a full-scale experiment, but this West does not want to consider our arguments

Quote: Sergey Sfyedu

Perhaps the best evidence is evidence of who actually shot down the Boeing.

LLC and this is generally a masterpiece of evidence

[Brigadier]

"Earlier, prosecutor Theis Berger said that the prosecution has a witness who allegedly saw "four soldiers in tank helmets", as well as the launch of the Buk missile system.""

Interestingly, there was a full charge of smokers before a court hearing?
Holland ... Marijuana, weed and jambs ...
Slightly poked them!

[tolmachiev51]

"Highly-like" - the rest is not important anymore !!!

[Retvizan 8]

Boeing is a "sacred sacrifice" and a well-planned operation to discriminate against Russia, and its ears stick out far beyond Ukraine's borders.
I think the fate of the Boeing was decided before it took off.

[Vladimir Vladimirovich_6]

not a Dutch court exists .. and there a bunch of pro-American rat cubs gathered and attracted, by the ears, various kinds of fakes from social networks to fulfill the order of the American Gestapo. By the order of which the Bandera terrorists shot down the plane.

[Valeriy007]

One question dispatch service:
Who ordered to send the liner through the Donbass ?, - everything will put in its place ....

[VLADIMIR VLADIVOSTOK]

Ordinary anti-Russian propaganda! Say also that the complex Russia supplied or if you seized from Ukraine, then Russia modernized it, gave target designations. Delusions of the country of drug addicts and L GBT!

[ender]

Well, why is nonsense. one person in a topic has already shared some revelations

[Gennady Fomkin]

Now, Four people launched the Beech. . That's stupid.

[Alexander Yolgin]

And recently, Iran knocked down a passenger and also a mountain of corpses, and no problems were made of the other man, and everything was wrong, at one time Ukrainians shot down our passenger with Jews on board over the Black Sea and no problems, but what’s the matter here? Holland or whoever the mouse is there and we have no one to reassure something and the guarantor is not visible to shut the throats,

[Cyril G ...]

Quote: pytar

For the rest, everyone who claims that it is so will be "stupid people." They won't even listen to him. The phenomenon is well known to psychologists.

Shake your tongue less. Psychology has nothing to do with it. It's about iron. If a person undertakes to write on the subject of the use of air defense systems in such a delicate situation, he should not bear nonsense. And that is exactly what he did. When I read this, I seriously did not take this clown seriously. Conclusion - is he a very stupid person, or interested, is that more understandable? The expert was obliged to consider all versions, including such an unpleasant for a true liberal as the guilt of the United States and Ukraine who organized the terrorist attack. Vadimko basically did not consider the version with the Ukrainians. But this is a marker of intent. Incidentally, he rewrote everything by the way. But people remember that. I then read the first version from the so-called expert.
Further, so where did the SPU come from? I will tell you in the disaster area there was a whole division 156 air defense missile systems of the Air Force, but the so-called Dutch court. Even the random shooting hypothesis is not considered. Why?
So where is the psychology? It is, but different .. If Hehemon appointed someone guilty - this does not require evidence.
It turns out like this.

[Cyril G ...]

Quote: Sergey Sfyedu

neither Russia, nor the DPR presented any sensible refutations and their counter-evidence.

There is nothing to refute, there is no topic of discussion itself. For there is no evidence. Thousands of pages transfusion from empty to empty.

[Shiden]

Quote: Cyril G ...

Quote: Sergey Sfyedu

neither Russia, nor the DPR presented any sensible refutations and their counter-evidence.

There is nothing to refute, there is no topic of discussion itself. For there is no evidence. Thousands of pages transfusion from empty to empty.

So justify that there is no evidence. And it turns out that without trial you have already appointed the perpetrators at your discretion. You will not deny that the Boeing was shot down from an air defense system. The court and the court to figure out who is to blame. And as for the evidence, I can put forward my version and half the world will be to blame there.

[boris epstein]

Not okay. There is a presumption of innocence. Evidence and evidence must be provided by the ACCUSER.

[Wolf 1]

I remember that Poroshenko, literally in a few minutes, announced that Russia had shot down the Boeing. I remember that Strelkov, after arriving at the crash site, wrote about the corpses, which "smell as if they had been lying for several days." I remember that Western investigators were in no hurry to find the Boeing wreckage. I remember that the SBU in the early days published an audio recording with conversations of alleged DPR representatives allegedly about the downing of the Boeing - later it turned out that it was recorded earlier, see screenshot. Where is the truth?

[Serge tankman]

But the truth remained to lie in the field at the crash site of the Boeing, because The SSG managed to collect ONLY 30% of the wreckage and for 5 years to cook from them the version given to him from across the ocean ...

[svoit]

Quote: pytar

Evidence that cannot be refuted, including technical, was provided by Russia.

Do you seriously believe that if the militia really hit the Boeing, Russia will provide objective evidence?

Of course, if that were the case, then they would provide the most complete and most objective evidence, it would be much easier to blame everything on the militia, what is their demand? Plant the miner (and me too) for the PU, he will not only bring down the Boeing, but he will destroy America in general.

[svoit]

Quote: Alexander Yolgin

And recently Iran shot down a passenger and also a mountain of corpses and no problems

And what kind of problems are there, like Iran, although it didn’t immediately admit its guilt, maybe over time it won’t even refuse compensation, and they “imprisoned” some military man there.
If here Girkin had admitted the guilt of the militia (there is no talk of apology, of course), promised to someday pay compensation to citizens of countries that recognized the DPR, and at least fired commander Buk from the police, then everyone would have forgotten this story in August

Quote: Cyril G ...

Because there is no evidence

What does this have to do with it? There is no evidence of Russia’s involvement, it doesn’t matter, let’s present evidence of Ukraine’s involvement, the pilot did not die “immediately”, there was time to kidnap him and interrogate him, he would have explained in detail that the SBU ordered him to shoot down the Boeing. Who is to blame that this was not done?

[Alexander Seklitsky]

Quote: svoit

at least fired commander Buk from the police,

what? What are you using there? What cabbage soup in the police should the air defense crew use? As, in fact, the complex itself. This is a complex structure and is served by an entire division.

[Cyril G ...]

Quote: pytar

but the Judge decides!

The court doesn't decide anything. Everything was decided at the moment when the States planned the destruction of the airliner with the hands of ukrov

[Cyril G ...]

Quote: svoit

If here Girkin admitted the guilt of the militia

Why should the Militia take responsibility for something they didn’t do?

[Andrey Arefiev]

A lot of things contain “high-energy” objects, it is necessary to show, “model” that it is the Buk that alone, this one, can produce destructive elements, and not from an aircraft cannon, an air-to-air missile...etc. All this, tailoring the facts to the Russian Buk, is a game for the public, in order to say the previously planned high-liking Russia is to blame. So that it can be explained to the public why the sanctions continue. I think the experts know how to build a defense. Six years ago I wrote what the investigation needs to do to reveal the culprits. 1.Publish and attach satellite images. 2. Collect all the debris with a full display in the hangar. 3. Compare data from Ukrainian and Russian radars 4. Interrogate, request interrogation data from dispatchers. 5. Black box data. 6. Now experts are also talking about spectral analysis of the damaging elements (you can find out the manufacturer and even the production batch) The court and investigation, hali-liked listening to me and the simple logic of the average person, did the opposite over these 6 years - 1. The photographs were not shown, they were CLASSIFIED. 2. All the debris was not collected, some were even forbidden to approach in the hangar (according to specialists, these parts carry a lot of information about the damaging elements and type of missile) 3. Ukraine did not provide radar data, supposedly they did not work. Our data was not taken into account. 4. The dispatcher disappeared without being questioned. 5. I haven’t seen the data on black boxes (but this is for specialists) 6. They refuse spectral analysis - they say it’s not required. I think for the public, the general public, the direction of the show is clear.

[Serge tankman]

And in these 5 (!!!) years, they could organize, under similar weather conditions, the launch of a BUK at a controlled target, film the entire process and show at what distance the missile’s launch to the target can be heard and seen and how long the trace of its flight is visible . As an investigative experiment...

[ender]

planned shootings occur regularly

[Andrey Arefiev]

Interestingly, the prosecutor said that Ukrainian gentlemen should be believed that the planes did not fly, the radars did not work, and open witnesses who saw the Ukrainian Armed Forces planes with Boeing should not be believed, should not believe that our radar did not detect the launch of the Buk missile. "new pro-Ukrainian inconsistencies in the Netherlands' position on MH17
Thus, a map was shown that was redrawn by the Ukrainian authorities retroactively. On it, the territory from which the missile was launched at the plane is attributed to the militia, whereas on the 2014 National Security and Defense Council map this area is controlled by the Ukrainian Armed Forces. “This is a forgery of material evidence. And when the accused asked to interrogate witnesses, they said: everything is classified,” Kornilov said. https://zen.yandex.ru/media/rueconomics.ru/kornilov-ukazal-na-novye-proukrainskie-nestykovki-v-pozicii-niderlandov-po-mh17-5edfb84c37df737ac67a49e9
Obviously, Ukraine did not want to disclose the data from its primary radars, since they were in close proximity to the scene of events and recorded everything perfectly. For Kyiv to provide this information is to confess to a war crime. https://topcor.ru/15047-krushenie-mh17-pochemu-ukraina-ne-zahotela-raskryt-dannye-s-radarov.html?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fzen.yandex.com Absence in (Russian) radar traces of a missile launch does not indicate its absence (!!!)
- Berger clarified. (Another pearl of the prosecutor in the style of Psakha) It is not only the Ukrainian side that is hiding information - statements are also made that there are certain American photographs that will not be shown to the public. These are not even medieval norms of legal proceedings, this is something fantastic,” FAN quotes an international lawyer.
The prosecutor verbatim - "We have satellite images with evidence of Russia's guilt, but we will not show them to the public - this is a "memorandum", take the gentleman's word for it." But there is no trial. We, too, as gentlemen to a gentleman, can also write to court -We have satellite images of the MIG-29 attack by the Boeing Armed Forces. Due to secrecy, we will not show them to the public. The presence of Ukrainian aircraft near Bing is confirmed by more than a hundred witnesses. But we will not declassify them, as their lives may be in danger. Their testimony can present to the court - as witness X1, X64, ...X100, etc. Remember what Laura Lyons said to Dr. Watson in the immortal film adaptation of “The Hound of the Baskervilles”? “Apparently there are no more gentlemen left in England.”
Yes, indeed, there is none left, but what does the court, the prosecutor, and Russia have to do with it?

[ender]

and open witnesses who saw Ukrainian Armed Forces planes with Boeing should not be trusted

Well, how can you not believe these vigilant eagles, who examined everything in detail at a 10-kilometer altitude, and even under dense clouds?

[Cyril G ...]

10!!!????
With a maximum ceiling of the Su-25 of 7 km?
By the way, the Air Force flew at altitudes of 4-6 km in order to go beyond the Eagle kill zone. We didn't go any higher.

[ender]

by the way, by the way. By an amazing coincidence, immediately after the disaster, the wiki urgently corrected the practical ceiling for the Su-25 from 7000 to 10000 meters.

[Cyril G ...]

Sheep because... An RVV can be launched from an airplane into the front hemisphere of a target while being 4-6 km below it.

[Cyril G ...]

Quote: pytar

In principle, there are 2 main points:
1. Boeing was shot down by Ukraine. It was a special operation with the goal of blaming Russia.
2. Boeing shot down the militia by mistake.
The first thesis is less likely. Such an operation poses too many risks for the conspirators. It cannot be guaranteed in a sufficient degree. Donbas is not only watched by the United States, all Russian intelligence systems work there ...

This version is more likely. However, you immediately put another marker on yourself. Why didn’t you assume that the airliner was shot down by 156 air defense missile systems of the Air Force because it was mistaken for a MiG-29?

Quote: pytar

The second thesis is very likely. It happened more than once that even a well-trained military shot down a civilian plane by mistake. Remember when the US shot down an Iranian airliner over the Persian Gulf? Ukraine had aviation, no militia! Accordingly, the militia needed air defense.

The Air Force denies leaving the Buk air defense system in the park in Donetsk, which would be repairable. Russia would not send a single SPU. To solve the air defense problem, the Os division would be quite enough.

I always express only my personal opinion. There will always be people with a different opinion and there is no nationality.

Not noticeable. What task have you been given, what opinion do you express?

One thing has been proven: there were air defense systems in the area where the airliner crashed, and they were Ukrainian. Russia did not introduce a complete battery to Donbass. There is no evidence for this. And to solve combat missions, you need a minimum battery.

[pytar]

This version is more likely. However, you immediately put another marker on yourself.

Ha, ha! Hello minus players! I'm sorry to upset them, but this is my opinion.

Why didn’t you assume that the airliner was shot down by 156 air defense missile systems of the Air Force because it was mistaken for a MiG-29?

Because this version is even less likely! The EPR of the MiG-29 is much smaller than that of military transport aircraft. At least they can identify it as a fighter jet or a large aircraft. The militia also did not have a MiG-29, nor any aircraft of that kind. Ukrainian air defense had the function of detecting and destroying aircraft that would eventually fly in from the territory of the Russian Federation, and the course of MH17 was in the opposite direction. For Ukrainian air defense, it is much less likely for the militia to confuse a fighter jet (of which the militias do not exist) with an airliner, which at the same time flies from the West to the East over Ukrainian positions, than for the militia to confuse a Ukrainian military transport (which the Ukrainian Air Force has) with a passenger airliner flying in the direction of Donbass. Even though the Ukrainian aviation was active.

Not noticeable. What task have you been given, what opinion do you express?

I’m wondering, Kirill, why on ru-forums, when you come across an opinion different from yours, always go to such accusations? I am a completely accomplished person in life, and at an age when few people can influence me. Well, except for the spouse and then for household issues... Okay, I’ll end the dialogue here, I wish you all the best!

[ender]

To solve the air defense problem, the Os division would be quite enough.

was not enough, because Ukrainian aviation began to fly to altitudes of more than 5.000 meters

[Cyril G ...]

Enough would be enough. To solve combat missions, they still need to descend. All downed litaks were hit during attacks, cargo drops, and reconnaissance at relatively low altitudes.

[ender]

not quite

The militia reported what they used to shoot down the Ukrainian An-26
14 July 2014, 21: 11
The militia reported that they shot down a Ukrainian An-26 aircraft with a Buk anti-aircraft missile system.
“Today, the militia used the 26K6M9 air defense system (better known as Buk) to destroy an enemy AN-37 aircraft at an altitude of more than 1 thousand meters.” Several weeks ago, it was reported that the militia had seized these systems. Now they have been repaired, manned and put into operation. These complexes make it possible to shoot down aircraft at altitudes of more than 4 thousand meters. Previously, the militia was powerless against enemy aircraft flying at such altitudes, since neither MANPADS nor missile launchers were able to handle such altitudes,” the militia said in a statement distributed on social networks.
https://vz.ru/news/2014/7/14/695525.html

do you see the date?

and here is 2 days later: -

Militias shot down a Ukrainian plane on the border with Russia
Before this, the pilot crossed the air border of our country.
16 July 2014, 21: 40
A Ukrainian Air Force plane entered Russian airspace, made a turn and began to fly away towards Ukraine, but was shot down by militias at an altitude of six thousand meters, a source in law enforcement agencies of the Rostov region told LifeNews. The incident occurred around 19:00 on July 16.

– The fighter was spotted on Russian territory. The plane was visible even from Kuibyshevo,” the source said. “He was making a U-turn and heading towards Ukraine, but the militia managed to shoot him down.

According to preliminary data, the pilot of the aircraft managed to eject. The downed plane fell into the territory of Ukraine.
https://life.ru/p/136731

at an altitude of six thousand meters - this is clearly not a MANPADS, right?

[Cyril G ...]

A. These are not primary sources.
b. On the other hand, carefully following the developments of events at that time, I don’t remember such a thing coming up. But I remember the statement about the attack by the MiG-29 (from Millerovo, apparently) and the downing of the Su-25.

Now about the facts, the Buk was not found among the militia (but the Buk, or rather the SOU with the required number of the crap cats, was quite found among the vehicles of the 156th air defense missile system of the Air Force) and the militias have no facts of its presence. Ukrainian rocket, and most importantly, no one conducted an investigation into the actions of Ukrainian crews in the area of ​​the downed plane. And they were there, and by the way, with the Dome.
Fold twice two. There are BUKs in the area of ​​the crash, but they are Ukrainian, but even for the sake of decency no one has investigated this issue

[ender]

These are reports from the Russian press. not Ukrainian.., not American.. And, by the way, very warmly received by the audience. I remember the discussions well, although I didn’t follow it so carefully

As for the facts, let me remind you that the only and indisputable version of the Russian Defense Ministry was the attack of the Ukrainian Su-25 and any mention of the use of air defense systems was a priori declared heretical and hostile

[Cyril G ...]

Since when does everyone believe the press? If the media starts telling you tomorrow that the sun rises in the north, will you also believe it?
Now about the Su-25. He carries air rockets. Hanging it under it, but on another R-73 pylon is no problem. RVV launch is possible at a target with a distance exceeding up to 5 km. There were domes on the stage with the help of which an attack aircraft can be brought to a target in the front hemisphere. Note, we are talking about the technical side of the issue.

[ender]

Well, faith is, of course, a personal matter... when you want, they believe any anonymous person from social networks, but if you don’t want to, then the official media become objectionable. however, there is a coincidence

the technical side of this issue was discussed in detail 6 years ago. yes, theoretically it could. although no one could clearly explain why it was necessary to send an attack aircraft and not a fighter.
but one thing is certain: the Su-9 could not carry the 38M1M25

[Cyril G ...]

Faith is definitely a personal matter. Have you ever tried filtering information?

[ender]

regularly)

but when the Russian press reports the appearance of Bukovs in the Donbass, and 3 days later, a Boeing is removed from a 10-kilometer altitude - this is definitely a strange coincidence..

[Cyril G ...]

Perhaps, now the facts..
- There are BUKs in the area of ​​the crash, but they are Ukrainian, but even for the sake of decency, no one investigated the issue of the movement of the self-propelled gun in the area, the firing positions, did not interrogate the personnel and the local population, etc. Moreover, look at what the person wrote above about a single SDA.
- The shooting car was not identified, or they did not want to.
- The car with the same number, on which the shooting was carried out, was part of the 156 ZRP.
These are my specific questions to the so-called tribunal. Why hasn't all this been done? If THIS had been done, it would have been possible, if necessary, to organize interrogations by the tribunal of both Mr. Strelkov and K. Apparently, the task of the so-called court was different. First, tighten and wrap. And then hang it on the Russian Federation in a package. By forcing you to admit what you didn’t do.

[ender]

and further. in analyzing the statistics of losses of Ukrainian aviation at that time, an interesting message was given: -

13.07.14/05/17 3-1, From Bezler: “Around Sushka, in Gorlovka. There were 2 planes, 1 civilian and 2 Sushka. 17.07.14 Sushka, having received a gorgeous kick in the tail, went into a tailspin and successfully crashed between Zaitsevo and Artemovsk. XNUMX Sushka was lucky So she was fired from a ZUshka from the Golmovsky post and, wrapped in clouds of smoke, landed somewhere in the Debaltsevo area. Unfortunately, the civilian left on the quiet. Quickly!" Apparently, the Sushki were accompanying a civilian aircraft. (The operation is similar to the operation with Boeing on XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX.) Not confirmed by the ATO headquarters.

The civilian, unfortunately, left on the sly. Quickly! Unfortunately..

[Cyril G ...]

Boeing rocked the Su-25? Epic!!! A picture of the apocalypse!!!!

[ender]

it only notes that the civilian aircraft were fully considered as a target. and I even regretted leaving...
By the way, I fully admit that Ukrainian attack aircraft were really in that area. And even by admitting responsibility for the disaster, but declaring that the Ukrainian plane was covered by a civilian aircraft, it was quite possible to change public opinion by completely shifting the blame to Ukraine. But. This move was invented much later...

[Cyril G ...]

Oops, don’t you know that BTA planes in the CIS traditionally carry the livery of pseudo-aeroflot?

[ender]

Do you want to say that the militias defined all military transports of Ukraine as civilian aircraft? Interesting..

[Leon68]

And did she fight a lot from these heights? Ukrainians smashed militias and civilians from lower heights

[Alexander Seklitsky]

Quote: Cyril G ...

SPU SAM Buk which would be repairable. Russia would not send a single SPU

Let me correct it a little. Not an SPU, but a SOU is a self-propelled firing system. Equipped with a radar with a viewing angle of 120 degrees. The complex also includes a ROM and a launch-loading installation. It does not have a radar and is controlled by a command from the SOU or KP. It has a crane manipulator for loading and unloading both yourself and the JMA.

Quote: Cyril G ...

There is no evidence for this. And to solve combat missions, you need a minimum battery.

A battery is just one SLA and two ROMs. A division is considered an independent unit. But a battery can also perform tasks provided that the division gives it a combat control unit, a combat control department with a SOC (target detection station) and a technical battery.

[Cyril G ...]

Quote: Alexander Seklitsky

with SOC (target detection station)

Thank you. And to what extent can the Buka SDA solve a combat mission in the absence of the SOC?

[Alexander Seklitsky]

Quote: Cyril G ...

Thank you. And to what extent can the Buka SDA solve a combat mission in the absence of the SOC?

Well, let's put it this way... only a complete layman can set up a combat mission alone. Even all-round radars have their own dead zones, let alone a radar at 120 degrees. And it is not designed for autonomous operation. Its radar is designed for target tracking, after the target is detected with the help of the SOC. The SOC transmits instructions to the batteries and the battery crews already make a decision on the method of firing at the target. If the target is complex, then there is a simultaneous salvo with the SOA and ROM, or with a second delay .. The SOU can of course shoot at a target alone if the route and time and echelon are known in advance. But this is tantamount to playing football with a stiff neck.

[Cyril G ...]

Thank you very much for your substantive answer.

[Shiden]

Quote: Cyril G ...

Quote: pytar

but the Judge decides!

The court doesn't decide anything. Everything was decided at the moment when the States planned the destruction of the airliner with the hands of ukrov

It was you who decided that you have already appointed the guilty. Strange logic. Although its logic has been very rare at VO since the age of 14, “The whole world is in ruins,” that’s all the logic. But before the site was interesting, there was a discussion and arguments in the comments, but now the opponent is immediately labeled as a liberal, a Benderite, an agent of the State Department.

[Cyril G ...]

What are you speaking about? The airliner had not yet reached the ground, and all the US sixes howled loudly that it was the Russians who shot it down. Nobody understood anything. What our central authorities have aggravated with their actions. Obviously they didn’t expect such meanness. So this is not my, but your strange logic...

[Shiden]

Well, firstly, all the central TV channels of Russia were the first to report about the downed plane. However, when they found out that they had shot down, the rhetoric immediately turned 180 degrees. Now tell me where the logic is. If you think that there are only fools around and you are smart, you are deeply mistaken, there are even smarter ones.

[Cyril G ...]

I don't know where your logic is. And you probably forgot how it was. After all, 6 years have passed

[Shiden]

You forgot how all the channels reported about the downed plane of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, despite the fact that all the reports indicated that this was not the first such episode. Now ask yourself where the journalists got the information from the wrong comrades whom they really want to see in court. Explained logically.

[Cyril G ...]

It's not logical.
Have you already forgotten how it happened?
I'm kind, I'll remind you...

June 6 shot down by Igla An-30
On June 14, an Il-76 was shot down. Knocked down by a needle. Even professional Ukrainians don’t mind.
June 2 in Dnepropetrovsk, crash of a damaged Su-25.
On July 14, an An-26 was shot down. Would you like to declare something for Buk?
On July 2, a Su-24 was damaged by fire from the ground. Would you like to say something about Buk?
On July 16, one Su-25 was shot down, and the second one barely made it to the base. Do you want to declare that they were shot down by Buk?

So what’s the point of jumping around saying that they declared success. Do you at all consider militia commanders?

[BAI]

It was you who decided that you have already appointed the guilty.

The plane had not yet fallen when Obama declared Russia guilty. All plane crashes, as found by black boxes, are investigated for a maximum of 2 months. They found everything here and have been dragging it out for so many years. It is obvious that Russia must be blamed, but there is nothing to show.

[pytar]

I’m the only one who wonders why they gave the black boxes and the wreckage of the plane for investigation to the Pindovian lackeys and sixes, why, since everything was in Russia’s hands, did not initiate an investigation on Russia’s or at least Malaysia’s terms..

Because Moscow’s official position is "we're not there", "this is an internal Ukrainian conflict", "we have nothing to do with it". Thus, she is not a party to the case. The court officially accuses 4 private individuals, but not the Russian state. If their guilt is proven, the next investigation will likely be about their connection with the Russian authorities. The official parties are directly or indirectly affected by the disaster, as well as Ukraine, on whose territory the disaster occurred. In accordance with international laws, which court the case will be heard is decided after consultation with these countries. By the way, Ukraine first proposed that the investigation and case should be taken from a special court to the UN! Then Russia could have become a direct participant, but it / the Russian Federation / vetoed... Russia is participating, but in a different quality. Any other country that declares that it has information on the case and can help with the investigation can receive the same status as Russia.

[Cyril G ...]

Quote: pytar

For Ukrainian air defense, it is much less likely to confuse a fighter jet (which militias do not exist) with an airliner, which is flying from the West to the East over Ukrainian positions.

But for them to crash the liner with passengers and still not admit it to this day is already the norm for them.... But you didn’t know, right? So find out. Before this, a Tu-154 airliner flying to Novosibirsk from Israel was shot down by a Ukrainian air defense system. The fact that you diligently avoid the question of where the air defense system came from is also pleasing. A marker so to speak.

[pytar]

But for them to crash the liner with passengers and still not admit it to this day is already the norm for them.... But you didn’t know, right? So find out. Before this, a Tu-154 airliner flying to Novosibirsk from Israel was shot down by a Ukrainian air defense system.

Kirill, flight SBI 1812 (Tu-154) was shot down on 04.10. 2001 over the Black Sea. Nine days later, on October 13.10.2001, XNUMX, Ukraine recognized guilt and apologized. Later it paid compensation to the families of the victims. You didn't know, right? Now we found out.

The fact that you diligently avoid the question of where the air defense system came from is also pleasing. A marker so to speak.

Where did the militia get its tanks, guns, MLRS and thousands of tons of ammunition for them? The route of the air defense missile system to the scene of events is quite well known. In the 21st century, when everyone has smartphones and video recorders, it is difficult to hide the movements of such a large vehicle.

[Cyril G ...]

Quote: pytar

Ukraine admitted guilt and apologized. Later it paid compensation to the families of the victims. You didn't know, right? Now we found out.

You don't know how it was there. There is a chance for you to find out that Ukraine did not admit guilt, but began to pay “a few pennies” 11 years after the crash.

Quote: pytar

The route of the air defense missile system to the scene of events is quite well known.

Are you talking about the ghostly photoshopped Buk on the White Trailer? Harsh.

In the 21st century, when everyone has smartphones and video recorders, it is difficult to hide the movements of such a large vehicle.

Show me at least one photo of the “korovan” with the Buk air defense system, MLRS, ammunition, ammunition and other things.....

[pytar]

There is a chance for you to find out that Ukraine did not admit guilt, but began to pay “a few pennies” 11 years after the crash

I don’t want to get into meaningless arguments, but you are outright lying! Ukrainian Defense Ministry Alexander Kuzmuk and Air Defense Commander-in-Chief Vladimir Tkachev apologized for what happened. President of Ukraine Leonid Kuchma admitted Ukraine's responsibility for the incident and dismissed the Minister of Defense. In accordance with the agreements as of December 26, 2003, Ukraine paid 200 thousand US dollars for each victim - 7,8 million dollars to Russia and 7,5 million dollars to Israel. The claim of Siberia Airlines OJSC for compensation for material damage was not satisfied.

Are you talking about the ghostly photoshopped Buk on the White Trailer? Harsh.

Do you often work with Photoshop? I do! And not only... Do you have forensic qualifications? I do! More than 20 years of experience. Don't tell me stories about topics you clearly know nothing about.

Show me at least one photo of the “korovan” with the Buk air defense system, MLRS, ammunition, ammunition and other things.....

There are quite relevant cases, whose authenticity has been confirmed by examination and accepted by the court as evidence. For your information, there are methods to establish authenticity. It's like fingerprints... The prosecution or defense can challenge the conclusions if they prove that the technical method is unreliable or used incorrectly. This was the case with the results of the examination carried out by Almaz-Antey. It was declared unreliable due to its masterpiece level of errors.
Do you have everything you wrote that proves Ukraine’s guilt?

[Cyril G ...]

Quote: pytar

There are quite relevant cases, whose authenticity has been confirmed by examination and accepted by the court as evidence.

What are you actually talking about now? Trying to avoid a slippery topic?

The main thing about this Buk is that for some reason they diligently roll it all over Donbass, probably so that everyone can see it. If Buk had been Russian, nothing like this would have happened. And the SOU alone would not have worked. And representatives of the 156th ZRP of the Ukrainian Armed Forces swore that all self-propelled guns were withdrawn from Donetsk.
So where did the SOU come from? The terrorist attack was quite deliberately prepared from all sides, but you won’t raise your tail against your owner.

Quote: pytar

Don't tell me stories about topics you clearly know nothing about.

I'm certainly no expert in Photoshop. But in terms of air defense, even if it’s naval, it’s a little bit up to date. And Hurricane once taught. So don't talk nonsense about what you don't know...

Quote: pytar

but you are openly lying! The Ukrainian Defense Ministry Alexander Kuzmuk and Air Defense Commander-in-Chief Vladimir Tkachev apologized for the incident.

I don't have to take your word for it. Will there be a link to the officialdom of Israel and the Russian Federation? Or how?

[BAI]

A Buk air defense missile system driving along the road from Snizhne to Saur-Mogila.

There was even a photo of this Buk passing by. One problem - in the photo the Buk is driving against the backdrop of flowering trees, but by July everything in Ukraine is already blooming. Why was the photo "there"? But it disappeared from the network when they noticed flowering trees.

[Cyril G ...]

Nobody would carry Russian Beeches on a trailer. They have caterpillars, and the steppe there is quite passable everywhere.

[pytar]

Nobody would carry Russian Beeches on a trailer. They have caterpillars, and the steppe there is quite passable everywhere.

Cheaper on a trailer - faster. And the resource is saved.

[Cyril G ...]

Quote: pytar

And the resource is saved.

And what? It would be enough for a war. Considering that the cows didn’t catch my eye anywhere. The management approached the issues of secrecy adequately and did not give a damn. And here is the most natural circus.

[Alexander Seklitsky]

Quote: Cyril G ...

Nobody would carry Russian Beeches on a trailer

When we had exercises, our brigade marched to the Telemba training ground in Buryatia from Domna station in the Chita region. This is about 140 km. So the wheeled vehicles walked along a public road, but the GM-ok crews walked through the forest and fields. 140 km one way and 140 in two weeks back. So they drove faster light than us. For example, I was dragging a power plant and a trailer Weighing 25 tons (powered SOC and CP with electricity). The rest of the column is also loaded with all sorts of junk. A tank loaded with missiles. A couple of fuel tankers, a couple of trucks with food. In general, there are at least 30 cars.

[Cyril G ...]

Thank you. I thought that if the decision to introduce the Buk complex had been made, no one would have carried a single SDA on a trawl along public roads. In the conditions of the chaos that was in June-July 2014, it is too similar to disinformation operations, as an element of the operation to destroy the SS Air Force plane. And this operation was not conceived and carried out by Ukrainians; they were the perpetrators no more.

[123456789]

Quote: ender

good question.
you can ask me, but the death of Sergei Zakharov - who benefits her?

Share if you know.
- Everything secret will become apparent, nothing will be left without retaliation (Quidquid latet apparebit, Nil inultum remanebit).

[ender]

No, I don’t know, but I can well guess. for example, to the relatives of the deceased, who received the opportunity to derive considerable material benefits. and what are the conclusions?

[23424636]

the plane was brought to the combat area, changing the route to the north by 70 km; before that, this flight passed further south through Dokuchaevsk-Vasilievka, where there were no combat forces at that time. To cover your tracks. They destroyed the Dnepropetrovsk dispatcher and the pilot of the Su 25, who, of course, made this flight.

[ximkim]

Quote: ccsr

Quote: ximkim

The court will sort it out and find the guilty. Guilty will receive with full.

It's a delusion. The court will not look for the guilty, because they live in Ukraine, and they were ordered to wet Russia long before they received any evidence. The fact that this was a farce was understandable from the first days of the investigation, if only because so far Ukraine has not submitted records of dispatcher negotiations, and what goals their radars were monitoring at the time of the Boeing’s flight. Everything else can no longer be discussed - the concealment of evidence against the Ukrainian side is so obvious that it’s even funny to refute it.

Let the trial take place from the beginning, and then we will see.

[123456789]

Quote: pytar

The most probable version by you, Boyan, is not even considered: An attempt by the Ukrainian air defense to bring down board No. 1 with Putin (who at one echelon separated for several minutes from the injured Boeing over Warsaw), but the Boeing was shot down by mistake.

Dear Vladimir, I consider this version unlikely. For several reasons!
1. The sale of B1 with Putin would have promised Ukraine unimaginable problems. This would be an open manifestation on state terrorism. Terrorize your people, as it’s possible, but I’m not able to imagine what is possible. In short - benefits are much less than harm.
2. Such a probability is guaranteed to be taken into account by the services responsible for the safety of the first person of the Russian Federation. There are no fools sitting there! If they considered such a scenario possible, the B1 would fly exactly on a different route.
3. I am 100% sure that the B1 is equipped with the most advanced protection systems, which at the highest level protect the sides, from all possible threats. There is more risk for that madman who would decide on such than for the GDP itself.

This is why the Ukrainian plane was shot down. The hunt is on for board number 1 The hunt is on! But the Malaysian plane was in the wrong place at the wrong time!

[pytar]

I apologize, but you clearly did not read my next comment on this issue. Just look at the geographical map! Where is Warsaw, where is Moscow, where is Donetsk...

[123456789]

How, if necessary, to fend off a threat from such an enemy is unclear. Air traffic controller Andrei Bulin suggests that the presidential plane is almost defenseless in the air.
“It’s unlikely that our fighters will accompany such a flight over Europe.” Firstly, the flight time of a fighter jet is much shorter than the flight time of a civilian airliner. He's low on fuel. In addition, a fighter pilot simply cannot sit in the cockpit for long. He cannot go out, rest, sleep and fly further. Or they must “transfer” the board from one fighter to another. Such escort is possible over the territory of our country, but I don’t think so abroad.
“SP”: — How much can you trust that the public portal FlightRadar24 reflects the current location of the plane in which the Russian President is flying?
— Theoretically, this is possible. It all depends on the equipment installed on the aircraft. It's probably there. Roughly speaking, it looks like this: turn the button on - the plane is visible, turn it off - it’s not visible. But it’s impossible to say exactly what regulations they have there.
International expert, political scientist Alexey Martynov, on the contrary, is calm about the president.
- This phenomenon - the use of several aircraft and special routes - is not new at all. Perhaps it is new only to Reuters journalists. The security of the first person in the state is ensured in full. Only a narrow circle of people from the security service knows which plane the president is flying on. So this is all innuendo. No one knows for certain the president’s route.
Vladimir Putin is now not just the president of Russia, but also one of the world leaders. Accordingly, all necessary security measures are applied. If people from Reuters became interested in the flight routes of the American president, then the intelligence services, in turn, became interested in them.
The fact that we, the public, know nothing about any incidents or incidents related to the Russian president, this just means that his security operates at the highest level.
There are too many enemies around.
By the way
According to unofficial data, the presidential aircraft IL-96, produced by PJSC Voronezh Joint-Stock Aircraft Manufacturing Company, has a protective hull coating that disorients radars, a jamming system for MANPADS missiles, air cover and even its own air defense. In addition, it is possible to have a system for rescuing the main passenger from a falling plane.

[pytar]

I have clearly shown you how simply it is to expose a fake in the Russian media, which they have replicated 12-15 million times! So we're sending this version to the trash can.

And everything else you write is probably true. There is no doubt for me that aircraft No. 1 and others that carry the first person are the most protected in the RVS.

[Alexey Andreev]

At one time in the army I saw what was left of missiles after a hit, in particular from an ATGM. There are only wires left and nothing else. Well, if you're lucky, you'll find the scattered casing of the rocket itself... and then the rocket (if there was one) fell almost intact, to the delight of the investigators. funny. It was immediately strange that almost the entire building was dragged in.

[Larisa Byvsheva_3]

My God, what are these 3,14daras doing there?! A “witness” who is not in the wild saw “four soldiers in tank helmets,” who never existed, in an open field and, as luck would have it, out of nowhere, Buk, who never existed, was passing from Snizhne! to Saur-Mogila!
These are the consequences of neurosyphilis. A terrible thing, by the way!

[123456789]

Quote: pytar

If their guilt is proven, the next investigation will likely be about their connection with the Russian authorities.

The next investigation will establish Poroshenko’s connection with this heinous crime. Since it could only be sanctioned by him and his overseas curators.
- Everything secret will become apparent, nothing will be left without retaliation (Quidquid latet apparebit, Nil inultum remanebit).

[123456789]

Quote: pytar

I have clearly shown you how simply it is to expose a fake in the Russian media, which they have replicated 12-15 million times! So we're sending this version to the trash can.

And everything else you write is probably true. There is no doubt for me that aircraft No. 1 and others that carry the first person are the most protected in the RVS.

The answer to your post is contained in my previous one:

Quote: pytar

So this is all innuendo. No one knows for certain the president’s route.

But to make sure that it was Air Force One that was lifted by Voloshin’s attack aircraft, and here the coloring of the Malaysian Boeing in the colors of the Russian Tricolor turned out to be critical.
Agree that there are too many coincidences not to be true. The mere presence of Air Force One at the time and place where the Malaysian and Ukrainian Boeings were shot down already explains everything. You believe in such random coincidences, I don’t!

[pytar]

But to make sure that it was Air Force One that was lifted by Voloshin’s attack aircraft, and here the coloring of the Malaysian Boeing in the colors of the Russian Tricolor turned out to be critical.
Agree that there are too many coincidences not to be true. The mere presence of Air Force One at the time and place where the Malaysian and Ukrainian Boeings were shot down already explains everything. You believe in such random coincidences, I don’t!

Dear, I cannot understand how a person’s head can fit so many mutually contradictory facts into one “judgment”! You saw on the map where their routes fly! Aircraft No. 1 did not enter Ukrainian airspace at all! The closest straight line distance from the board1 route to the Boeing downing site is more than 900 km! Where did you see these mythical “coincidences”, and what kind of “Russian tricolor flowers” ​​are there?!

[123456789]

[media=https://my.mail.ru/mail/stalker65-2/video/_myvideo/134.html]
The target was "Air Force No. 1" of Russia
Kyiv wanted to kill Putin so much that it killed 300 passengers on flight MH17. A passenger Boeing over Donbass was shot down by Ukraine. But why did Kyiv need to do this? The goal was

[Romanenko]

The technologies of the fake world, actively developed in the last decade, may soon bring new household names; in 2014, “fresh dogs” appeared as a reflection of delirium and incompetence from a high rostrum, and now, it seems, the “Dutch trial” is maturing - a farce in robes.

[123456789]

[quote=pytar]Dear, I cannot understand how a person’s head can fit so many mutually contradictory facts into one “judgment”! You saw on the map where their routes fly! Aircraft No. 1 did not enter Ukrainian airspace at all! The closest straight line distance from the board1 route to the Boeing downing site is more than 900 km! Where did you see these mythical “coincidences”, and what kind of “Russian tricolor flowers” ​​are there?! [/quote]
[quote][quote=pytar]Dear, I can’t understand[/quote]
I can show the way to the source, I can lead the horse to water, but he can only get drunk himself
[quote]Aircraft No. 1 did not enter Ukrainian airspace at all![/quote]

This is an afterthought! At that moment no one knew this, the hunt was on for aircraft No. 1, and they shot down the first one that turned up - the Malaysian one!
[quote]what are the “flowers of the Russian tricolor”?![/quote]
Red, blue, white!

[lvov_aleksey]

I’ve already said it more than once! All the fuss about one plane being mistaken for another. Aircraft No. 1 from Russia was supposed to fly from Brazil after the World Cup at this time, but was delayed for half an hour, as a result, plane MH17 crashed.
Therefore, there are no images from NATO spy satellites, and no one is interested in our evidence.

[NF68]

Earlier, prosecutor Theis Berger said the prosecution had a witness who allegedly saw "four soldiers in tank helmets", as well as the launch of the Buk air defense missile itself. The identity of the witness is not disclosed, he passes in court as X48. It is also reported that the witness allegedly saw the Buk air defense system driving along the road from Snezhnoye to Saur-Mogila.

A very valuable witness. At the same time, there are 2 more witnesses with whom witness X48 drank an alcoholic drink called vodka, and these 2 witnesses show that X48 saw not only soldiers in helmets, but also devils with pitchforks and something else behind the devils’ backs that X48 could not see due to overdrinking. And who to believe now?

[Cyril G ...]

Very "valuable". And the stoned prosecutors are talking some kind of nonsense. The country of the owner of the aircraft was excluded from the investigation and trial regarding the crash, and so on. and so on.