Military Review

The myth of the Soviet occupation of the Baltic states

220

Soviet troops enter Riga


80 years ago, in June 1940, units of the Red Army entered the Baltic states and occupied the original Russian lands lost during the collapse of the Russian Empire and the intervention of the great Western powers. The Baltic outskirts again became Russian. This event was of strategic military importance: on the eve of the great war, the USSR strengthened the northwestern borders.

Preparing for war


In the context of the great war in Europe, the Baltic states were of strategic importance. It was a bridgehead from which the Third Reich could deliver a quick and crushing blow to Leningrad. The security of Leningrad-Petrograd since the time of the Russian Empire depended on the situation in Finland and the Baltic states. The Russian army shed a lot of blood so that these lands were included in the Russian state. Moscow solved the Finnish problem in the winter of 1939-1940. The time has come for the Baltic states.

It is worth noting the non-independent, border and buffer nature of the Baltic state entities: Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. After the collapse of the Russian Empire, the nationalist liberal bourgeois regimes that seized power in them pursued a policy hostile to Russia. These states in their foreign and military policies were guided by the Western powers: Germany, England, France and Finland. With the tough confrontation with the West approaching, the Soviet Union could no longer tolerate their hostile policies. A possible enemy bridgehead had to be eliminated one way or another.

In order to prevent the threat of the seizure of the Baltic states by the Nazis and attacks on the USSR through their territory, the Soviet government in the autumn of 1939 negotiated with the governments of these republics on the issue of mutual security. Negotiations completed successfully. Mutual assistance agreements were signed: September 28 - with Estonia, October 5 - with Latvia and October 10 - with Lithuania. Moscow pledged to provide assistance to the Baltic states, including the military, in the event of an attack or threat of attack from a European state. In turn, the Baltic countries promised assistance to the USSR if it was attacked through their territory or from the Baltic direction. The agreements contained obligations not to enter into any alliances and not to participate in coalitions directed against one of the parties to the agreement.

Immediately after the conclusion of mutual security treaties, contingents of Soviet troops were introduced into the Baltic states. The 65th Special Rifle Corps began to be based in Estonia, the 2nd Special Rifle Corps in Latvia, and the 16th Rifle Corps in Lithuania. Soviet bases appeared in the Baltic aviation and locations of the Baltic fleet.

The myth of the Soviet occupation of the Baltic states

Soviet Tanks BT-7 on the street of Kaunas. June 1940


Parts of the Soviet Army in Vilnius

Joining the Baltic


Stalin acted very carefully, preferring to act for sure. However, the situation in the world, Western Europe and the Baltic was difficult. The Baltic authorities have repeatedly violated the just signed agreements with Moscow. Many representatives of local authorities, often in nationalistic positions, were hostile to the Russians. When Soviet military bases began to equip in Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, various provocations took place. Secret consultations took place between the governments of the three Baltic republics, united in an alliance within the Baltic Entente. Attempts to lie under the Third Reich did not stop. Moscow knew about this (including from the Germans, who so far benefited from an alliance with the Russians), but for the time being these tricks suffered.

The right moment to solve the Baltic question came in the summer of 1940. In the worsening military-political situation in Western Europe, the ruling circles of the Baltic states were actively looking for an opportunity to join strong, that is, Nazi Germany. France and England could not intervene. Germany needed Russia's support in conditions when almost all divisions were on the French front. Immediately after the fall of Paris, the Baltic regimes were presented with official lists of violation of treaties on their part, ultimatums were attached to them. Moscow raised the question of removing people hostile to the USSR from the government, lifting the bans on the activities of communist parties and their access to parliaments and governments. All three republics were supposed to accommodate additional contingents of the Red Army. At the same time, the Soviet government, in the guise of exercises, fully prepared the troops of the Leningrad, Kalinin and Belorussian Special Military Districts. Soviet troops began to advance to the borders of the Baltic states.

The Baltic Limitrophs panicked, rushed to beg for help from the Nazis. However, Berlin was not up to them. Ribbentrop did not even receive the ambassadors of the Baltic countries and their address to Germany. Lithuanian President Smetona wanted to resist, but most of the government and parliament opposed him. He fled to Germany, then to the USA. In Estonia and Latvia, the ultimatum was accepted unconditionally. On June 15-17, 1940, additional Soviet troops entered the Baltic states.

Republics were quickly sovietized. Authorities of the Soviet government were responsible for this process: Zhdanov (Estonia), Vyshinsky (Latvia) and Dekanozov (Lithuania). In the new parliamentary elections on July 14, 1940, the pro-communist Unions of the working people won. They received the vast majority of votes - over 90%. The new parliaments on July 21–22 proclaimed the creation of the Estonian, Latvian, and Lithuanian SSRs, and adopted the Declaration on joining the USSR. On August 3-6, 1940, the Baltic republics became part of the Soviet Union.

They knew perfectly well about the upcoming accession to the Soviet Union of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania in Berlin. Ribbentrop and the German ambassador in Moscow, Schulenburg, corresponded about this. By agreement with the Reich, the fall of 1939 began the repatriation of Baltic Germans to historical homeland. And in the spring in Germany they hastened a little and published maps where the Baltic states were shown as part of Russia. The British head of the Admiralty Churchill in October 1939, after the fall of Poland and before the Red Army entered the Baltic states, noted that the actions of the Russians were caused by the prevention of the Nazi threat by Russia. Moscow is forced to stop the Reich’s plans for the Baltic states and Ukraine.

Thus, Moscow, as the war was approaching, very skillfully used the temporary alliance with Germany. While Hitler was tied up in the West, and France and England were defeated, Stalin was able to return the Russian suburbs, torn away from Russia during the time of unrest. Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania did not have autonomy before the revolution in Russia. By the way, the French, British and Americans fixed this rejection at the Versailles conference. Moscow solved the most important national task, restoring the unity of the state. Russia returned historically its lands, for which the Russians paid for many centuries with hundreds of thousands of lives. The country's military and economic potential has been strengthened.

It is worth noting that in the future, most of the population of the Baltic states only benefited from this. Only small groups of nationalists and the bourgeoisie lost, who benefited from the dependent position of their countries. The region from the backward agrarian periphery of Europe has become an industrially developed part of the Soviet state, a "showcase" of the USSR. And after the collapse of the USSR, the Baltic states returned to the past: it became a backward unnecessary outskirts of Western Europe. Without industry, the future and a rapidly dying population.


Communist demonstration in Riga street


Holiday in Riga on the occasion of the adoption of the Republic of Latvia into the USSR. August 6, 1940
Author:
Photos used:
https://ru.wikipedia.org/, http://waralbum.ru/
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  1. Deck
    Deck 18 June 2020 05: 50
    +8
    Of course we did not occupy them. The author of the article writes:
    With the tough confrontation with the West approaching, the Soviet Union could no longer tolerate their hostile policies. A possible enemy bridgehead had to be eliminated one way or another.

    We liquidated them in a friendly manner, with international greetings and at their many requests.
    1. cradle
      cradle 18 June 2020 05: 55
      +1
      see Curzon line
      1. Octopus
        Octopus 18 June 2020 06: 45
        +9
        Quote: besik
        see Curzon line

        And what does the Curzon line, the eastern border of Poland with the UNR, relate to the Baltic states and Soviet Russia?
        1. Liam
          Liam 18 June 2020 06: 54
          +7
          No, but it sounds solid
        2. cradle
          cradle 18 June 2020 10: 55
          +2
          It was too lazy to write yourself a quote: At the Tehran Conference of the Leaders of the Anti-Hitler Coalition (November - December 1943), Churchill proposed that the territories occupied by the USSR in 1939 would be compensated at the expense of Germany, and as the border in the east should to be Curzon's line.
          Wikisource logo In Wikisource there are texts on the topic: “Round-table meeting on December 1, 1943. The partition of Germany.”
          On January 11, 1944, the Soviet government announced its readiness to base the post-war Soviet-Polish border on the “Curzon Line”, option “A”. At the Crimean Conference of 1945, one of the points resolved the question of Poland and its borders - at the suggestion of the USSR, it was decided that the eastern border of Poland should go along the “Curzon line” (with a retreat in a number of peripheral regions in favor of Poland, and in the Lviv city area in favor of the USSR; Churchill's version was installed and fixed (see above).

          On August 16, 1945, in Moscow, an agreement was signed between the USSR and Poland on the final determination of the Soviet-Polish border (in general, the corresponding “Curzon line”, with some deviations in favor of Poland).

          The Curzon Line is the demarcation line between Poland and the RSFSR proposed by the British Foreign Secretary Lord Curzon in 1920. It was recommended by the Entente Supreme Council as the eastern border of Poland.
          And the triebaltes haven’t been asked since Peter bought them first. Who are they? How to call them? The eastern border of Poland is the border with Russia and the FSO!
          1. Octopus
            Octopus 18 June 2020 11: 18
            -1
            Quote: besik
            Churchill's proposal was accepted that the territories occupied by the USSR in 1939 would be compensated at the expense of Germany, and that the Curzon line should be used as the border in the east.

            You are right, but these two shameful pages of British diplomatic history are irrelevant.
            Quote: besik
            demarcation line between Poland and the RSFSR

            Between Poland and the UPR, another country betrayed by the Entente.
            Quote: besik
            triebaltov did not ask from the time of their purchase by Peter the first. Who are they? How to call them?

            Yes, yes, thank you.

            It is impossible to believe in it, but there was a time when the policy of the Baltic countries towards Russian non-citizens seemed some kind of savagery.

            Now it’s obvious that it is too soft. Suitcase, train station, Far Eastern hectare.
            1. cradle
              cradle 18 June 2020 11: 32
              +4
              Now it’s obvious that it is too soft. Suitcase, train station, Far Eastern hectare. [/ Quote]
              Suggest to send triebaltov to open Siberia? Not bad idea! laughing
            2. cradle
              cradle 18 June 2020 11: 39
              +2
              Between Poland and the UPR, another country betrayed by the Entente.
              These are parts of the Republic of Ingushetia if that ... And the fact that the West recognized them does not mean that it is right. Or does the West have any higher right to recognize or not recognize? That the Soviet Union did not agree. And rightfully strong (when the RSFSR was weak, then lost) they returned. What’s wrong? What’s not matching? The Curzon line is the line of the western border of the USSR and the Russian Federation actually recognized by the West. What is written with a pen, you can’t cut down with an ax.
              1. Dr. Frankenstucker
                Dr. Frankenstucker 18 June 2020 15: 10
                -2
                Quote: besik
                Curzon Line is a line of the West’s practically recognized West border


                Yes, what, nafig, the connection between the Curzon line and the Baltic states?
            3. Theodore
              Theodore 18 June 2020 17: 26
              +1
              You are mistaken! Last year alone, only in Lithuania, about 8 thousand Russians and Belarusians arrived for permanent residence! Plus Ukrainians are guest workers! But basically, everything is in Vilnius.
              1. Octopus
                Octopus 18 June 2020 20: 28
                -4
                Quote: Theodore
                Last year alone, only in Lithuania, about 8 thousand Russians and Belarusians arrived for permanent residence! Plus Ukrainians are guest workers!

                It's not about migrant workers. As for people coming to permanent residence, it is unlikely that those supporters of the Russian language who cost so much to another country not so long ago.
              2. trahterist
                trahterist 19 June 2020 14: 14
                0
                This is generally not an indicator.
                8 thousand is even less than the statistical error, especially for Russia.
                In addition, far from the fact that for a long time.
                I personally know a lot of pretzels that live and work over the hill, but they keep their citizenship, declaration of MF, hit, at home, no matter what happens, huh, what if?
                Cho that reminds me of it (404, yeah)
                But from my Latvia every year for 35-40 thousand. dumped, and this is in 95% of cases Forever (when asked about the possibility of returning, they can also send to the erotic), which at 1,5 mln. population (well, this is by officialdom, really ~ 1,2 million) is already much more serious.
                And, a surprise, including in the Russian Federation and Belarus, and not just in Europe.
              3. avg
                avg 21 June 2020 22: 21
                0
                Quote: Theodore
                You are mistaken! Last year alone, only in Lithuania, about 8 thousand Russians and Belarusians arrived for permanent residence! Plus Ukrainians are guest workers! But basically, everything is in Vilnius.

                YOU confuse permanent residence with those who legalize stolen goods by buying real estate. But migrant workers, they are migrant workers.
        3. Olgovich
          Olgovich 20 June 2020 10: 07
          0
          Quote: Octopus
          Curzon line, eastern border of Poland with the UPR

          Curzon line .... border .. UNR? belay fool lol

          The Curzon line is the basis of the border between Poland and the USSR,
          1. Octopus
            Octopus 20 June 2020 10: 41
            -2
            Quote: Olgovich
            the basis of the border between Poland and the USSR,

            If you were interested in real history, and not just your complex inner world, you could find out that the Curzon line appeared 2 years before the advent of the USSR. Worse, from the point of view of Curzon, Wrangel represented Russia.
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 20 June 2020 11: 18
              0
              Quote: Octopus
              If you were interested in real history, and not just your complex inner world, you could find out that the Curzon line appeared 2 years before the advent of the USSR.

              If you didn’t do your own speculations, and at least elementary self-education, you would know that to mention the Curzon Line in conjunction with the border Poland and....UNR lol is the top idiocy.

              And chop on your forehead what exactly is between Poland and the USSR this Line became the basis for establishing the boundary, as trained above.

              Has it reached the SECOND time? No.
    2. Ross xnumx
      Ross xnumx 18 June 2020 05: 55
      13
      An occupation? Yes, as they lived in the Baltic republics, the inhabitants of the RSFSR could only dream. Such an occupation is not weak - industrialized countries were created from agrarian shtetl farms.
      1. Deck
        Deck 18 June 2020 05: 58
        +6
        Like cheeses in butter skated. But you could ask the Finns from the Karelian Isthmus to free the territory
        1. Basil50
          Basil50 18 June 2020 06: 42
          -6
          The author has lied. Habitually.
          The Germans, having occupied Poland, the Baltic states, began to create colonies for themselves and the first thing they did was to destroy the RUSSIAN people. By the way, Jewish communities also participated in the robbery and murder of RUSSIAN people.
          Then, after the defeat of the Germans, the Germans themselves began to be thrown out of the Baltic states.
          The Baltic states began to ask for membership in the SOVIET UNION because they saw firsthand that the standard of living in RUSSIANs is much higher.
          As soon as the fascist governments of the Baltic states crushed the people in a single impulse (without any irony), they demanded joining the SOVIET UNION with free medicine, free education, guaranteed work. We can hardly believe in the poverty of the Baltic states, but it was. In the Baltic, only those who were attached to power had at least something.
          It is today in the Baltic states of their own ancestors that they are either weak-witted, or outright cowards. But then how to lie in Europe, we are convinced daily.
          1. Dr. Frankenstucker
            Dr. Frankenstucker 18 June 2020 09: 32
            -2
            Quote: Vasily50
            The Germans, having occupied Poland, the Baltic states, began to create colonies for themselves and the first thing they did was to destroy the RUSSIAN people. By the way, Jewish communities also participated in the robbery and murder of RUSSIAN people.


            A sure sign of patriotic dementia is to write "Russians" in caps. laughing

            Quote: Vasily50
            The Baltic states began to ask for membership in the SOVIET UNION because they saw firsthand that the standard of living in RUSSIANs is much higher.


            Stop smoking Agitator's Companion, my friend.
            1. cradle
              cradle 18 June 2020 11: 02
              +2
              nope ... a sure sign of dementia, inability to read, what is written in the caps (there is also the word "LIE" - it's about you, you are our unfriendly (or not ours?)). And quit smoking "Liberal's Digest" laughing otherwise it shoves you in, crushes and sausages.
              1. Dr. Frankenstucker
                Dr. Frankenstucker 18 June 2020 15: 53
                -5
                Quote: besik
                Another word "LIES" is about you, you are our unkind (or not ours?)).


                indicate where I lied. Give a quote.
                And, given your cheers-patriotic seizures, I must say with confidence - no, not yours.
            2. Andrey Kuznetsov_2
              Andrey Kuznetsov_2 24 June 2020 14: 44
              0
              But he is 100% right.
        2. Octopus
          Octopus 18 June 2020 06: 49
          -1
          Quote: Deck
          Like cheeses in butter skated.

          The other day, Riekstins, the ambassador of Latvia to the Russian Federation, posted a small help on one enemy’s website. Of the 7 pre-war ambassadors of Latvia to the USSR, 3 were shot, 2 died in a Soviet prison, 2 managed to escape to the West.

          Thanks to the native Soviet government, of course.
          1. Deck
            Deck 18 June 2020 08: 00
            +3
            Well, not all shot. Because humanists were
            1. Octopus
              Octopus 18 June 2020 08: 25
              0
              And internationalists.
          2. Zug
            Zug 18 June 2020 09: 11
            +1
            Well, probably they were not just punished like that?
          3. cradle
            cradle 18 June 2020 11: 03
            -2
            iiiii? What is this talking about? What are all seven scoundrels? Or definitely scum?
            1. Octopus
              Octopus 18 June 2020 11: 22
              -2
              This suggests that Mr. Lavrov owes 5 ambassadors to Latvia alone.
              1. cradle
                cradle 18 June 2020 11: 42
                +2
                To send the Latvian ambassadors or to shoot? wassat Specify
                1. Octopus
                  Octopus 18 June 2020 12: 09
                  -1
                  Quote: besik
                  To send the Latvian ambassadors or to shoot?

                  Firstly, I am talking about Russian ambassadors.

                  Secondly, such issues should be discussed specifically and hardly with me. So far, we have seen a new approach to diplomacy only once, using the example of the Russian ambassador in Qatar, Titorenko. The case of the Turkish ambassador Karlov is still difficult to attribute to the manifestation of exactly Turkish foreign policy, there was an initiative from below.

                  For its part, the Russian Foreign Ministry has long established itself quite clearly. Including specifically in Doha, where Russian Foreign Ministry officials staged a terrorist attack by blowing up Yandarbiyev with guards and a minor son.
                  1. Andrey Kuznetsov_2
                    Andrey Kuznetsov_2 24 June 2020 14: 48
                    0
                    What do you dislike about eliminating the scum of a terrorist? And what does the Foreign Ministry have to do with it? This is Val personal speculation. And ALL special services of the world are engaged in the elimination of enemies, especially Mossad.
                    1. Octopus
                      Octopus 24 June 2020 15: 38
                      0
                      Quote: Andrey Kuznetsov_2
                      What does the Foreign Ministry have to do with it? This is Val personal conjecture.

                      This is a court verdict. Read the question before speaking out.
                      Quote: Andrey Kuznetsov_2
                      What do you dislike about eliminating the scum of a terrorist?

                      As you just learned, there is a court in Qatar. So if Yandarbiev was a criminal - it was in this instance that it was necessary to apply.
          4. Ryazan87
            Ryazan87 18 June 2020 14: 17
            +4
            Given the role that Latvians and to a lesser extent Estonians played in the victory of the Bolsheviks in the Civil War, there is an evil irony in all this. Even the first commandant of the ELEPHANT was uh ... a bag.
            However, the Magyars also actively noted, then, however, they began to get nervous.
          5. frols
            frols 18 June 2020 17: 36
            +3
            And this same Riekstins didn’t tell how much the population of Latvia has decreased, how young people are forced to flee west in order to have at least some kind of income, and the old people die with a beggarly pension. Because like him, he first plundered everything that remained after the USSR, and then sold the whole country in bulk.
            1. Octopus
              Octopus 18 June 2020 20: 31
              0
              At least some. Earnings.

              I understand you correctly that departure to Germany and departure to the execution ditch comrade. Vyshinsky seems to you approximately the same options?
        3. Irbenwolf
          Irbenwolf 18 June 2020 11: 32
          -1
          But you could ask the Finns from the Karelian Isthmus to free the territory

          How, then, would a country that conquered fascism be different from the Third Reich?

          By the way, the USSR quite respectably gave Karelia, even following the results of the Finnish and Great Patriotic War, for this isthmus.
          1. Octopus
            Octopus 18 June 2020 11: 53
            -1
            Quote: IrbenWolf
            How, then, would a country that conquered fascism be different from the Third Reich?

            The country that defeated fascism was very far from the Third Reich. After all, the Third Reich existed for only 12 years, unlike.

            Quote: Deck
            could as the Finns from the Karelian Isthmus ask to release the territory

            Comrade Stalin quite willingly took territories with people. But they managed to withdraw their Finns.
            1. Deck
              Deck 18 June 2020 12: 20
              -2
              You are mistaken, the Finns, like the Germans, began to be deported even before the war, with a ban on living in certain territories. The ban was valid until the 70s. Therefore, there were no Finns left on the Karelian Isthmus, but Germans in the Kaliningrad region.
              1. Dr. Frankenstucker
                Dr. Frankenstucker 18 June 2020 13: 45
                -1
                Quote: Deck
                You are mistaken, the Finns, like the Germans, began to be deported even before the war, with a ban on living in certain territories.


                actually, I suppose, the Octopus colleague, saying
                Quote: Octopus
                But they managed to withdraw their Finns.


                I did not mean the deportation of Finns by the Soviets of 30-38, but the evacuation of the population of Finnish Karelia by the Finnish authorities during the Winter War, when 400 thousand people were transported inland.
            2. Irbenwolf
              Irbenwolf 18 June 2020 12: 22
              +2
              The country that defeated fascism was very far from the Third Reich. After all, the Third Reich existed for only 12 years, unlike.

              Precisely because the country that defeated fascism was not engaged in total cleansing of territories following the example of Western "democracies" and especially fascist Germany - it lived much longer.
              1. Octopus
                Octopus 18 June 2020 12: 43
                -1
                Quote: IrbenWolf
                Precisely because the country that defeated fascism was not engaged in a total sweeping of territories

                Precisely because she did this - she lived a lot longer.
                1. Irbenwolf
                  Irbenwolf 18 June 2020 13: 25
                  +5
                  Quote: Octopus
                  Precisely because she did this - she lived a lot longer.

                  You finally decide: Siberia is good or bad. Or as usual, when it’s bad for me, and when it’s for the neighbor, it’s wonderful !?
              2. Dr. Frankenstucker
                Dr. Frankenstucker 18 June 2020 13: 49
                -3
                Quote: IrbenWolf
                Precisely because the country that defeated fascism was not engaged in a total sweeping of territories


                are deportations considered "cleansing of territories"? Or "well, that's different!"?
          2. Deck
            Deck 18 June 2020 12: 15
            0
            [quoteWhat, in that case, would the country that defeated fascism be different from the Third Reich?] [/ quote]

            It is not clear why in the subjunctive mood. The USSR did just that.
            1. Octopus
              Octopus 18 June 2020 12: 27
              +1
              Recently, one of those present was discussing Gakhu, the president of Czechoslovakia, who was forced to accept Hitler’s ultimatum, and the last Baltic presidents.

              The Baltic, all three, perished in the structures of the NKVD. Gakha was the president of the Protectorate until the end, went to prison, where he died ... after the liberation of Czechoslovakia from the Red Army (naturally, social protection measures were taken against him without the knowledge of the Benes government recognized by the USSR).

              So the people who say that the USSR and the Reich are incomparable are absolutely right.
              1. Dr. Frankenstucker
                Dr. Frankenstucker 18 June 2020 13: 18
                +3
                Quote: Octopus
                The Baltic, all three, perished in the structures of the NKVD.


                I’m embarrassed to ask - and Smetona, therefore, perished in the dungeons of the Cleveland NKVD of Ohio?
                ))
                1. Octopus
                  Octopus 18 June 2020 13: 52
                  +1
                  Quote: Dr. Frankenshtuzer
                  I am shy to ask - and Smetona

                  And do not be shy.

                  I wrote latest. In the case of Lithuania, this is Antanas Merksis. He gently sat until the 54th year and was released to die without the right to return to Lithuania.

                  By the way. His family was also repressed.
                  1. Dr. Frankenstucker
                    Dr. Frankenstucker 18 June 2020 14: 26
                    -1
                    well, yes, I.O.
              2. Olgovich
                Olgovich 20 June 2020 10: 26
                0
                Quote: Octopus
                Recently, one of those present was discussing Gakhu, the president of Czechoslovakia, who was forced to accept Hitler’s ultimatum, and the last Baltic presidents.

                The Baltic, all three, perished in the structures of the NKVD. Gaha was president of the protectorate until the end

                To end served Hitler, he was sworn in by a Nazi and a bastard who surrendered Czechoslovakia to Germany without a fight, signed racial laws, surrendered his comrades-in-arms and colleagues to the Nazis, and executed all the orders of the Nazis.

                Quote: Octopus
                went to jail

                Ah .... WHERE should be ardent ASSOCIATOR and henchman of the Nazis?

                .What a touching unity of mollusks from the Nepatnik and the Nazis yes
                1. Octopus
                  Octopus 20 June 2020 10: 49
                  0
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  WHERE should there be an ardent ASSISTANT and a servant of the Nazis?

                  Already Gakhu was written down in ardent, dearly. Just the German Dimitrov.

                  Gakh should be where the Czechoslovak court (if necessary) and the London-recognized Benes government recognized by the USSR decide. Assessment of its activities is an internal affair of Czechoslovakia. In my opinion, he deserved a monument.

                  By the way, recently the place was vacated.

                  But you, I think, the idea that Czechoslovakia may have internal affairs, it is impossible to accept.
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 20 June 2020 11: 41
                    0
                    Quote: Octopus
                    Gakh should be where the Czechoslovak court (if necessary) and the London-recognized Benes government recognized by the USSR decide. Assessment of its activities is an internal affair of Czechoslovakia. In my opinion, he deserved a monument.

                    a high-ranking official of the Nazi GERMAN regime, suspected of a mass of war crimes, is sued by the state / states against which this regime waged an aggressive war

                    And it was the NÜRNBERG TRIBUNAL of the allies, and not the "government" of Germany, that evaluated the "activities" of Goering, Himmler, and other war criminals.

                    Gakhu was lucky, he died of fear before, without waiting for an appropriate trial.
                    1. Octopus
                      Octopus 20 June 2020 13: 25
                      -1
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      And it was the NÜRNBERG TRIBUNAL of the allies, and not the "government" of Germany, that assessed

                      Yes Yes. Did not get comrade Vyshinsky with comrade Rudenko to another foreign president.

                      And what, Germany was a country of the anti-Hitler coalition with an exiled government recognized by the USSR? I didn’t know about it.
            2. Irbenwolf
              Irbenwolf 18 June 2020 13: 26
              +1
              It is not clear why it should be different.
      2. Pravodel
        Pravodel 18 June 2020 06: 44
        +8
        Exactly ... They occupied it so that the last plant, after the liquidation of all possible enterprises, built during the occupation, was liquidated last year. Now, in general, there are no factories or enterprises ... Great happiness has arrived - freedom from occupation ...
        1. danske75
          danske75 18 June 2020 22: 19
          +1
          I’m embarrassed to ask, how do they live there? The NATO soldier there seems to be 3000 incomplete for all 3 republics, while the inhabitants are 6 million.
      3. Octopus
        Octopus 18 June 2020 06: 46
        -2
        Quote: ROSS 42
        industrialized countries were created from agrarian shtetl farms.

        In the 30s, the economies of the Baltic countries and Finland developed similarly, the Estonian grew even better. Now there is a slight difference with any Western European country.
        1. ee2100
          ee2100 18 June 2020 10: 20
          0
          Some kind of "difference"! Basically, the salary is 4,5-5,5 € / hour instead of the 7 declared. She does not even reach 800 €. There are categories where they pay with dignity, and the largest of them are officials. Food prices are higher than in Poland and Germany. Etc.
      4. tihonmarine
        tihonmarine 18 June 2020 09: 26
        +3
        Quote: ROSS 42
        An occupation?

        Especially in Lithuania, which was returned to Vilnius, the Vilnius Territory, and then also presented to Memel (Klaipeda) and part of East Prussia, Lithuania, thanks to Stalin, received in two receptions from pre-war Poland, first 6909 sq. Km of territory with almost half a million inhabitants, then another 2637 sq. km. And also on October 1, 1940, the Druskininkai resort with the surrounding villages was transferred to Lithuania.
        This is occupation !!!
    3. Civil
      Civil 18 June 2020 08: 16
      +2
      Even now they want to join Russia, dream of our pensions, vote for amendments to the Constitution, and they can’t cry about the Federal Tax Service Administration in the Riga Region without it.
      As then they wanted to Siberia and the NKVD order. Balts they are.
      1. Zug
        Zug 18 June 2020 09: 17
        +1
        I here will not throw the terms described above by you. I will tell you about "everyday life". There are two blogging channels on the Yu-Tub channel - Frozen Time and the Abandoned World. One blogger searches for abandoned villages in Russia and rents houses both from the inside and outside. The other wanders in the Baltic villages. And now, my dear, watch a couple of videos and compare the abandoned Russian and Baltic. In the Baltic villages, in the houses, right now, residents left everything - furniture, appliances, cars, amber jewelry, TVs, refrigerators, sewing machines, various antique Values. The beds are made and made. And they left without even taking anything. Moreover, all the houses are actually BRICK. So, the difference between the abandoned villages of the Russians and the Baltic states is GREAT! Clocks, amplifiers, speakers, amber, antique furniture! They ate in the USSR-Druzhek.
        1. Civil
          Civil 18 June 2020 09: 38
          +1
          Duck that's the difference between the abandoned villages of Russian and Baltic states-colossal!

          Of course they lived, but until 1940 they lived in caves in general, but we can’t remember whether it’s our business, the villages are now prosperous, full of cows, tractors and young people. And I’m completely silent about the cities, rotten Klaipeda and our ultramodern Serov, or Sibay there, well, to the edge of Orsk. I completely agree with you.
          1. Zug
            Zug 18 June 2020 09: 39
            0
            Now ... what is "there" what we have ... The abandoned world ...
      2. Irbenwolf
        Irbenwolf 18 June 2020 09: 43
        +3
        In the 30s, the USSR proposed a social idea, and Russia now can offer only its oligarchs. The Balts themselves have complete order with these creatures - no one else is needed.

        The retirement age is very "wild" for Russia was introduced 15 years ago. And about pensions in the format of survival in the Baltic states have gone very close - it is enough to survive, if you are not sick.
        1. Dr. Frankenstucker
          Dr. Frankenstucker 18 June 2020 12: 12
          0
          Quote: IrbenWolf
          In the 30s, the USSR proposed a social idea


          The idea, of course, was gorgeous - in July the Latvian Diet carried out nationalization (although in December, having understood the idiocy of “total nationalization,” something was denationalized), in November - a monetary reform, bringing down the lat and provoking a commodity deficit. In February 41, he killed private business, when buying goods made of leather, wool and cotton, a mark was put in the passport, their purchase was limited. In March 41st lats were buried, no more than 1000 rubles were left on the accounts, the rest was confiscated. Soviet management methods, the outflow of East German Germans, the lack of intelligent personnel, and the stupidity of reforms led, as expected, to the rationing of food products in May 41 - immediately the next day after the decision to create state farms.
          Oh, and deportation, of course.

          So what "social idea" are we talking about, in particular, to Latvia in the period 1940-1941?
          1. Irbenwolf
            Irbenwolf 18 June 2020 12: 19
            0
            Tell me, did you return to capitalism by more humane methods? Or were smarter people doing this? The diet was its own, painfully native - Latvian.

            Well, talking about the idea of ​​implementation, the results in the format of 2 years is the same as talking about puberty in the first week of pregnancy.
            1. Octopus
              Octopus 18 June 2020 12: 46
              0
              Quote: IrbenWolf
              Tell me, did you return to capitalism by more humane methods? Or were smarter people doing this?

              Of course. They did not send to Siberia. By the way, in vain.
              Quote: IrbenWolf
              Or were smarter people doing this?

              Certainly.
              Quote: IrbenWolf
              The diet was its own, painfully native - Latvian.

              In the 90s, yes, in the 40s no. The diet was Bolshevik, not Latvian; the Bolsheviks have no homeland. The rest of the Soviet government cleaned in advance. See above about the fate of the Latvian ambassadors.
              1. Irbenwolf
                Irbenwolf 18 June 2020 13: 19
                +2
                Of course. They did not send to Siberia. By the way, in vain.

                Latvia doesn’t have its pocket Siberia, hasn’t gotten enough. You can’t send Latgale further. But electoral rights can be completely deprived. (This, incidentally, is also repression if that)
                By the way, she appeared in 1940 ... but more on that below.
                How quickly do you move from democratic freedoms to "sorry there is no Siberia".
                Certainly.

                Reinforced concrete argument. It is very clever to expel people from factories into the open field and sprinkle earth on those who "did not fit into the market." The Soviets at least took them somewhere and gave the ax so as not to die. And to carry out a monetary reform 1 to 200 on the basis of the left heel of the "Martian", I don’t remember at what rate the repshiks were exchanged for lats, but also not a plus. Do you remember the "songs" of the early 90's about the agrarian paradise and the blockage of Europe with bacon - does not remind anyone now, only to the south?
                In the 90s, yes, in the 40s no. The diet was Bolshevik, not Latvian; the Bolsheviks have no homeland.
                So these are your native Latvians !!! Or do you judge a person by conviction? Somehow this is not democratic and not European, not to mention such trifles as human rights.

                In the Sejm for 40 years, not Russians were sitting (even Bolsheviks), but local Latvians. And the Latvians also returned from the east. We went east and brought home everything we achieved on Russian soil.

                Incidentally, the Germans in the 18th year primrose the Latvian Soviet Republic, which was created by the Latvians themselves.

                And also, about 10 years ago, one of the leaders proclaimed the Latvians. as specialists in revolutions (in Russia), implying the revolutions of 1905 and 1917.
                1. Octopus
                  Octopus 18 June 2020 14: 12
                  -1
                  Quote: IrbenWolf
                  Latvia does not have its pocket Siberia, has not gotten

                  Bring to the border, and then on as they want.
                  Quote: IrbenWolf
                  But electoral rights can be completely deprived. (This, incidentally, is also repression if that)

                  This is not enough.
                  Quote: IrbenWolf
                  How quickly do you move from democratic freedoms to "sorry there is no Siberia".

                  Latvia is a state of Latvians. People who are not welcomed by Latvians have nothing to do there.
                  Quote: IrbenWolf
                  Do you remember the "songs" of the early 90's about the agricultural paradise and the overwhelming of Europe with bacon - does not remind anyone now, only to the south?

                  The average 800 euros on hand without oil. Minimum 430. Poor Latvians.
                  Quote: IrbenWolf
                  So these are your native Latvians !!!

                  The Bolsheviks are the enemies of any nation. I am between the Russian Kalinin, the Hungarian Kun, the Jew Trotsky, the Pole Dzerzhinsky, the Georgian Stalin, etc. I do not make any differences.
                  Quote: IrbenWolf
                  Or do you judge a person by conviction?

                  Конечно.
                  Quote: IrbenWolf
                  not to mention such trifles as human rights.

                  I do not extend the word "man" to the Bolsheviks.
                  Quote: IrbenWolf
                  We went east and brought home everything we achieved on Russian soil.

                  They were enemies of their own, Russian and German people equally.
                  Quote: IrbenWolf
                  Latvian Soviet Republic, which was created by the Latvians themselves.

                  Any Soviet republic there and the road.
            2. Dr. Frankenstucker
              Dr. Frankenstucker 18 June 2020 16: 01
              -2
              Quote: IrbenWolf
              Well, talking about the idea of ​​implementing results in the format of 2 years is the same as

              Of course, of course.
              That is, to approach a working system of management with scissors for castration and arrange shock therapy, obviously leading to a tragic dead end - is this the norm for Soviet experimentation?
              1. Irbenwolf
                Irbenwolf 19 June 2020 12: 41
                +1
                I repeat once again: But exactly the return to capitalism was carried out by other methods. Or did China not pay for its economic miracle on Tiananmen?

                I agree with you, this is not a method. but life shows that no one else uses.
                1. Dr. Frankenstucker
                  Dr. Frankenstucker 19 June 2020 12: 52
                  -1
                  I will repeat myself: in the case of Latvia, there is an attempt to impose a regressive (in comparison with the existing) economic system with all the attributes of Sovietization. This is not entirely analogous to the "return to capitalism" incident in the 90s.
      3. cradle
        cradle 18 June 2020 11: 06
        +1
        Russian occupation must be earned bully
        1. Irbenwolf
          Irbenwolf 18 June 2020 11: 31
          +3
          Quote: besik
          Russian occupation must be earned bully

          No offense, I asked my friends Russian patriots hung with Russian attributes from head to toe: "Would you like Latvia to become a Russian part?" Believe it or not, 10 out of 10 patriots answered: "No".

          Offer an idea - they will go to you themselves. Slowly reluctantly, but they will go. And just redistribute the loot - this is not necessary. The locals themselves with great difficulty plundered, and now what to give?
          1. cradle
            cradle 18 June 2020 13: 02
            +1
            in general, no offense, the triebaltics didn’t go anywhere, to be honest. Well, just not interesting. The idea now for the Russian Federation should be one — to build its own country without parasites. This has already passed and twice on the same rake, stupid. You can leave this good to yourself ... especially without Russian transit. Ports now have their own, sprats, too, you have more and there is nothing. You do not even want to interest us in order to generate interest from the word at all. It makes no sense to fight because of you with NATO, even over territory. Under the USSR, yes there was a point in your territory. Not now.
    4. antivirus
      antivirus 18 June 2020 08: 26
      -1
      In order to prevent the threat of the seizure of the Baltic states by the Nazis and attacks on the USSR through their territory, the Soviet government in the autumn of 1939 negotiated with the governments of these republics on the issue of mutual security

      - the author is right. we also write about Bandera. it will be so
      1. Dr. Frankenstucker
        Dr. Frankenstucker 18 June 2020 16: 03
        -3
        Quote: antivirus
        it will be so


        what exactly will be?
    5. Fitter65
      Fitter65 18 June 2020 13: 59
      +2
      Quote: Deck
      Of course we did not occupy them.

      Of course not! just returned your and all business
    6. Lynx-z
      Lynx-z 19 June 2020 07: 45
      0
      Possible enemy bridgehead. You modestly did not notice this phrase in the sentence
    7. Deck
      Deck 20 June 2020 11: 47
      0
      And then it began.


    8. Evgeny Moskov
      Evgeny Moskov 23 June 2020 18: 22
      -1
      If you want to live, be able to spin. Here, as in a war, either we or they. If they had not joined the tribales, now the Germans would have ruled in Russia. Or do you want to live in occupation?
  2. Olgovich
    Olgovich 18 June 2020 06: 20
    0
    After the collapse of the Russian Empire, the nationalist liberal-bourgeois regimes that seized power in them.


    Why distort history and customize to your vision?

    In the OCCUPIED part of Russia, the German OCCUPANTS created puppet hostile regimes, and the Bolsheviks RECOGNIZED them and paid them tribute in gold, ruining the country. These are just FACTS.

    The Baltic states were returned correctly, quite legally.

    maybe the regimes that made decisions on the republics entering the USSR were not very democratic, but where in the world then were ... very democratic regimes? yes nowhere!

    And already the fascist regime of Ulmanis didn’t stand at all ...
    1. tatra
      tatra 18 June 2020 06: 26
      +5
      Well, as always with the enemies of the Bolshevik Communists. Together with the invaders of Russia, you unleashed the Civil War, seized parts of the territory of Russia, created your separate Lithuania, Latvia. Estonia, the Ukrainian People’s Republic, ZUNR, and other separate States, but the Communists are to blame for you. And in this case, the Communists are to blame for you. And in the case when in 1939-1940 the Communists returned the territory of Russia that you seized to the country.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 18 June 2020 07: 24
        -3
        Quote: tatra
        Well, as always with the enemies of the Bolshevik Communists.

        Communists are ... enemies of the Bolsheviks ?!
        What a bizarre world the enemies of the enemies of the communists have! lol
        Quote: tatra
        You, together with the invaders of Russia, unleashed the Civil War

        On October 26, 1917, when the civil war broke out as a result of the seizure of power by a bunch of BANDITS, there were no intrusions in Russia, remember, chop it on your forehead!
        Quote: tatra
        , created on them your separate Lithuania, Latvia. Estonia, the Ukrainian People’s Republic, ZUNR, and other separate States, but the Communists are to blame for you.

        I say, the Communists (traitors) ACKNOWLEDGED THE INDEPENDENCE of all of the above parts of the country, breaking it into pieces
        Quote: tatra
        the Communists are to blame .and in the case when in 1939-1940 the Communists returned the territory of Russia that you seized to the country.

        Returned correctly, incorrectly that returned not to Russia
        1. Krasnoyarsk
          Krasnoyarsk 18 June 2020 08: 53
          +3
          Quote: Olgovich
          What a bizarre world the enemies of the enemies of the communists have!

          Olgovich, don't pretend to be a fool.
          Quote: Olgovich
          October 26, 1917, when the civil war broke out

          The Bolsheviks released all the arrested members of the Provisional Government, although it was they who staged the execution of a peaceful demonstration in Petrograd on July 3, 1917.
          = On the word of honor not to fight against the revolution, the Reds let the tsarist generals and other ardent enemies of theirs go to all four sides. And, of course, they immediately joined the struggle against the revolution. =

          = The rest is well known ... Soon, in September 1918, becoming one of the leaders of the White Guards, the same Krasnov was already scribbling such messages, for example, to the inhabitants of Tsaritsyn: “So I came, and with me two hundred thousand troops, many hundreds of guns , brought three thousand cylinders of asphyxiant gas, I will strangle your whole land and then all living things will perish. =
          This is how the Bolsheviks "staged" the civil war.
          Olgovich, I already told you, - your cave anti-Sovietism has caught your eye.
          Quote: Olgovich

          I say, the Communists (traitors) RECOGNIZED THE INDEPENDENCE of all of the above parts of the country,

          Well, the Bolsheviks would not recognize the independence of the Baltic states and what would happen? Would they immediately abandon her?
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 18 June 2020 11: 42
            -6
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk

            Olgovich, don't pretend to be a fool.

            So it is written by the enemy of the enemies of the Communists, what have I to do with it? request
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            The Bolsheviks released all the arrested members of the Provisional Government, although it was they who staged the execution of a peaceful demonstration in Petrograd on July 3, 1917.

            What is the dog thing of the Bolsheviks-who are they to judge anyone?

            "Peaceful" demonstration - in a tube and - there, there! The Bolsheviks had to be killed for her. but the power was soft

            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            = On the word of honor not to fight against the revolution, the Reds let the tsarist generals and other ardent enemies of theirs go to all four sides. And, of course, they immediately joined the struggle against the revolution. =

            Krasnov, under the FAIR WORD, was not invited to arrest in Petrograd for negotiations, where he was ... arrested.

            WHO allowed the bandits to arrest ... the generals?
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            Further is well known ..

            Certainly: a wild SLAUGHTER unleashed by the Bolsheviks, which the country did NOT accept in the elections with - million victims, wild DEVELOPMENT and POVERTY, because of which it was only possible to CAPE up Russia with food, clothes, etc. after almost FORTY YEARS!
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            Olgovich, I already told you, - your cave anti-Sovietism has caught your eye.

            And I tell you: your cave ignorant bolshevism against the background of its complete collapse makes you simply ridiculous
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            Well, the Bolsheviks would not recognize the independence of the Baltic states and what would happen? Would they immediately abandon her?

            They would not have recognized, would have quietly returned them to Russia, as BESARABIA, without a clowning with input, elections, etc.

            Who disputes the return of Bessarabia today? NONE! And the Baltic countries pop into each line.
            1. Krasnoyarsk
              Krasnoyarsk 18 June 2020 12: 44
              +2
              Quote: Olgovich
              Baltic shove in every line.

              The whole post is bullshit.
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 19 June 2020 06: 46
                0
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                The whole post is bullshit.

                This reasoning
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                gray gelding.
                1. Krasnoyarsk
                  Krasnoyarsk 19 June 2020 09: 26
                  0
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  This reasoning

                  I showed you on the last thread what your "reasoning" is worth.
                  Because they are based on emotions and interpreted facts.
                  The Bolsheviks could not recognize the independence of even the Finns, even the Baltic states. Because in their ideology the right of the nation to self-determination is recorded.
                  Will you deny this right?
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 19 June 2020 09: 37
                    -4
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    I showed you on the last thread what your "reasoning" is worth.
                    Because they are based on emotions and interpreted facts.

                    belay lol You, so far, have not been able to "show" ANYTHING to me anywhere, due to your ignorance.
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    The Bolsheviks could not recognize the independence of even the Finns, even the Baltic states. Because in their ideology the right of the nation to self-determination is recorded.

                    The Russian nation also has a right.

                    So, to hold a referendum across Russia on whether something belongs to anyone.

                    All honestly.

                    And what is recorded in some tebils something to spithi
          2. fuxila
            fuxila 18 June 2020 13: 40
            +3
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            Well, the Bolsheviks would not recognize the independence of the Baltic states and what would happen? Would they immediately abandon her?

            It would be the same thing that happened with Bessarabia. The Bolsheviks did not recognize its occupation, and in 1940 they suggested that the Romanians get out of Pobodor Poborov, which they did exactly.
            1. Sugar Honeyovich
              Sugar Honeyovich 18 June 2020 18: 07
              -1
              Quote: fuxila
              to get out of Podobru-pozdorov, which they did exactly.

              But why not performed in 1920?
              1. fuxila
                fuxila 18 June 2020 19: 17
                0
                Quote: Sahar Medovich
                But why not performed in 1920?

                And in 1920, Soviet Russia had forces for a war with Romania?
                1. Sugar Honeyovich
                  Sugar Honeyovich 19 June 2020 16: 46
                  0
                  This is warmer! And if in 1940 the USSR had no strength, the Romanians would not have gone anywhere. And so they entered again in 1941. They had the power! And all sorts of "recognized-not recognized" here insofar as. request
            2. Sugar Honeyovich
              Sugar Honeyovich 18 June 2020 18: 10
              -1
              Quote: fuxila
              It would be the same thing that happened to Bessarabia

              That is what? Would the Bolsheviks demand to join, and would those governments exactly execute?
              On the other hand, whites (in modern parlance: "legal authority") tried not to recognize all these independence - it did not help a bit ...
              1. fuxila
                fuxila 18 June 2020 19: 16
                0
                That is what? Would the Bolsheviks demand to join, and would those governments exactly execute?

                This question has already been answered above - recognize in fact (as in the case of Bessarabia), but not officially recognize. And what could Latvians and Chukhons do? Send your mighty armies to Moscow and force to sign a declaration of independence? So half of these same Baltic states at that time served in the Red Army.
                The Bolsheviks here remind me more of Bunshu: "Kemsk volost? But I thought! Take it!" Moreover, they paid a shameful tribute of 44 million rubles. gold to Latvians and 15 million rubles. Estonians, not counting all there Pechors and Izborsk, steamships and timber concessions. Latvians still remember about Pytalovsky District ...
                1. Liam
                  Liam 18 June 2020 22: 03
                  +1
                  Quote: fuxila
                  The Bolsheviks here remind me more of Bunshu: "Kemsk volost? But I thought! Take it!"

                  The Bolsheviks and Bassarabia wanted to recognize. They only demanded that Romania refuse the demand to return the Romanian gold reserves, which were stored in Russia and appropriated by the Bolsheviks after the revolution in exchange. Nothing personal, as they say, only business)
                2. Sugar Honeyovich
                  Sugar Honeyovich 19 June 2020 16: 53
                  -1
                  Quote: fuxila
                  recognize in fact (as is the case with Bessarabia),

                  Would that change anything? They would not have moved to Moscow, but they would have spat on its protests from the heart.
        2. Zug
          Zug 18 June 2020 09: 23
          +5
          The civil war began with an uprising in 18 year of the Czechoslovak corps. A handful of bandits had as much right to power as the provisional government. Not less than not. From February to October 17, the temporary leaders "finished off" an already breathing country. And the Bolsheviks were not visible there on the horizon yet. And they shouldn't have unleashed a civil war. Why? They have already come to power. Why organize wars when you already did it? Heresy you are carrying. The intervention and the civil war in fact began already in 18 year. Krasnov, on parole, they let the officer not take up arms. at the officer's word
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 18 June 2020 11: 53
            -6
            Quote: Zug
            The civil war began with an uprising in the 18th Czechoslovak Corps

            it began on October 26, 1917, and THOUSAND died immediately. In November 1917, YOUR ilichi RECOGNIZED that she was going
            Quote: Zug
            A handful of bandits had the same rights to power as the interim government. Not less than how many.

            You are ignorant: VP-agreed by ALL-monarchy, the Duma and the COUNCILS.

            A bunch of bandits are not recognized by ANYONE
            Quote: Zug
            .From February to October 17, the temporary workers "finished off" an already breathing country.

            This "finished off" country for another 4 years fiercely fought with the bandits who seized power
            Quote: Zug
            And it was not necessary for them to unleash a war. Why? They already came to power already. Why arrange wars when you have succeeded?

            belay fool lol
            The fact of the matter is that they did NOT succeed in anything: the country did NOT accept the bandits and rose to war with them.

            Why on earth did TENS of millions of Russian citizens who had chosen not US Bolsheviks in their elections, should obey .... them?

            WHAT ?!
            So civil has gone
            Quote: Zug
            You are carrying a heresy. The intervention and the war in essence began already in the year 18. Krasnova? But on an honest word they let the officer not take up arms. So what? Having left to the south, he began to gather troops not alone. He spat to the officer’s word

            You are illiterate: Krasnov was invited to negotiations, vowing not to arrest him. and .... arrested!

            And who are they, yes, so that they require words from someone?

            NOBODY and call NO!
            1. Zug
              Zug 18 June 2020 12: 05
              +5
              And who are the Duma and the monarchy? Are they the face of the law? Who overthrew the king? Who popped his own for advice? The Reds ruined the empire? Your horsemen. And by October 17 they brought to the point. And the king didn’t overthrow a bunch of bandits by the way. And who had risen there? If the whole country had risen, the Bolsheviks would have had no chance. And the whites and 14 other intervention countries waved off their rags. What does this mean? Most people followed the Bolsheviks. The Bolsheviks came to power when the Empire was not just ruins, and they didn’t do it, but the dumb king and his general. And even before October, the Bolsheviks did not participate in the elections. By the beginning of the 17th year, there weren’t any .And the February revolution was called the Revolution of mink mantles. Because the bourgeoisie was overthrown and destroyed the Empire.
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 18 June 2020 12: 51
                -3
                Quote: Zug
                And who are the Duma and the monarchy?

                The power of the people and the power of the country. It’s time to know such things.

                The councils ALSO recognized, agreed, participated and supported the EP
                Quote: Zug
                Empire red ruined? Your horsemen

                the country remained in place. Or WHAT did you capture?
                And the herders saved her from 1991 and the Russian Cross, built by YOU
                Quote: Zug
                And brought to October 17 to the point.

                YOU made a point, destroying ALL industry and bringing the country to cannibalism in 1921.

                In 1917, this was not in MIND.
                Quote: Zug
                And who rose there? If the whole country had risen then the Bolsheviks would have had no chance.

                Those who voted NOT for the Bolsheviks.

                You, like other cowards, did not answer a simple question: For what reason TENS of millions of Russian citizens who chose not the Bolsheviks, but normal people, to choose the US, they had to obey .... them?
                Quote: Zug
                And from whites and another 14 countries-invaders waved off with pissing rags.

                You didn’t need integrators; they themselves left.

                ... Or tell about the Franco-Soviet "front", the American-Soviet "battles", fabulist? lol
                Quote: Zug
                Do you know what this is talking about? Most people followed the Bolsheviks

                Lying. In gr. 5% of the population from both sides took part in the war.
                Got it?
                Quote: Zug
                The Bolsheviks came to power when the Empire was left with nothing more than ruins, and they didn’t do it, but the dumb king and his generals.

                You are ignorant: read STALIN in the Short Course: february revolution was made by the WORKING class, and BOLSHEVIKI led them
                Quote: Zug
                And even before October, the Bolsheviks did not participate in the elections

                To school, ignoramus!
                Shame ....
                1. Zug
                  Zug 18 June 2020 13: 21
                  +3
                  Well, right at 21, we blew up and destroyed all the factories? Probably we are sado-maso. First, break down and then hunch over to build. Umora. YOUR Squads unleashed a civil war. Wanted again to spread rot peasants and eat French rolls. To bring the peasants to the point that They began to drink too much. The Anglo-Saxons then robbed the colonies. The Tsar had no colonies, he robbed the peasants. And that was the production! Not that shells and rifle cartridges were not hawked! We went as far as Japan, sell the poor Russians Arisak and placed orders in the USA! And why? And the request ... lThe king of industry, everything was under investment from the capitalists. I could not even provide the front! Your tsarist power did not bring people to cannibalism? Was it? Can you recall the famine of the late 19th century? Or 1905? Yes, it’s not interesting to you. It’s not the Bolsheviks who are to blame for the famine. By the "battles"? What are you talking about? Or you don’t know how Finland walked around Karelia and the white Were you with the English? You need to be in your hut as Finns live m with a family to burn so that the understanding would work. About 5 percent? And 10 million dead? We had a population of a billion? Or do you not know what the contingents were doing with us? You learned history very well. And again. If the country rose up against the Bolsheviks - there was no more Bolsheviks. And since in a large critical mass people with the Bolsheviks went and won and you all asked ... whether. Even with the help of the interventionists and their infusions. You have killed the peasants-flogged generation.
                  1. andrew42
                    andrew42 18 June 2020 15: 17
                    0
                    Emotionally, but how true it is said!
                  2. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 19 June 2020 06: 40
                    -2
                    Quote: Zug
                    Yes, well? Right at 21 we blew up and destroyed all the factories? Probably we are BDSM. First break and then hunchback to build. Umor

                    Exactly!
                    Under YOUR authority, the plants are stopped and destroyed. Like the country's financial system, the judicial system, banking, etc.

                    On the other, the brains never worked by anyone of great age LOBOTRYAS were not enough
                    Quote: Zug
                    . YOUR-Pogonniki unleashed gr.voyna.

                    Before the Thief-Civil War-NO

                    Got it, no?

                    THIRD TIME I ASK A SIMPLE question: Why should TENS of millions of Russian citizens who chose not the Bolsheviks, but normal people, choose to obey .... them?
                    Shock to answer? still would!
                    Quote: Zug
                    To bring the peasants to the point that they began to get drunk.

                    It was YOU who brought the country to the FIRST PLACE in the world in the production of alcohol per person and in alcoholics.

                    Before you, Russia is the first / second place in Europe in sobriety.

                    Quote: Zug
                    . The Tsar did not have colonies; he robbed the peasants.

                    The peasants became slaves in the USSR, where they paid tribute (according to Stalin)
                    Quote: Zug
                    Not that shells and rifle cartridges did not get enough!

                    Recall 41,42 years. In a battlefield near Moscow, they generally fought with guns...1878 year!
                    Quote: Zug
                    Your tsarist authority didn’t bring people to cannibalism? And you are a cynic, old man and a hypocrite!

                    Poke your wife, yes, ignorant and ignorant.

                    In Russia there has been NO cannibalism since the 17th century, but in your "people's" country it was a frequent occurrence with in the middle of 20 century: from the message of the NKVD, 33
                    Village Dolzhanskaya c. G **** She ate the corpse of her dead sister’s owl.

                    In the same village, it was established that group D *** remained after the death of his father and mother with young sisters and brothers ate the meat of brothers and sisters who died of starvation.

                    St. Novo-Scherbinovskaya. In the 3rd brigade of the collective farm, his wife E *** hacked and with "ate my 3-year-old child,

                    SUCH - only with YOU, chop on your forehead!
                    Quote: Zug
                    By "battles"? What are you talking about?

                    namely, that according to the so-called. "battles" - facts on the table, liar!
                    Quote: Zug
                    If the country had rebelled against the Bolsheviks, there would have been no more Bolsheviks.

                    FOUR YEARS, the country fought, and in fact, for all 70 years of this anti-people power, you were afraid of popular elections until incontinence, everything, yes, and they have never been held.

                    And the country WINS: see the FLAG over the Kremlin.
                    Your power has arrived ALL country, people, army, industry, finance, EVERYTHING!
                    Quote: Zug
                    Predorol you peasants, a generation of beefy.

                    Porporili them YOU — you completely extorted the Russian peasantry, and this is the backbone of Russia — you have drunk it, robbed and extinct.
                    The heart of Russia, the Non-Black Earth region, was extinct with you: minus 60 thousand villages, millions of hectares of abandoned arable land and pastures, a million empty houses by 1985
                    The killers ..
                    1. Zug
                      Zug 20 June 2020 08: 44
                      0
                      All the elections to the Duma of the peasants and the profonation people. She had no critical mass of votes, they nodded, no more. Don’t tell me a smile. When Tsarka had grain reserves? Vaults? You starved people for hundreds of years giving land for 25 years and work on the master and the quitrent pay, so that the French rolls could be eaten enough by the peasants. And Stolypin’s reform failed with us. Do you come from those who lived on the land and rode on the humps of the peasants? And you didn’t win even in 4 years with the help of Anglo-Saxons and with their universal help and support. The country fought with you. Forgot how Denikin took grain out of the territories he occupied with steamships? Did he fill the pocket? Comrade Stalin saved the country from bloodsuckers like you and later fists that grain prices began to bend swollen from arrogance. And by hunger? There were as many as two under the Bolsheviks. And under your kings there were regular hungry years and what did the tsar do so that there were no hungry years? Nothing-he. He continued to fill up the west with grain because could not come to life again.
                      About VP I’m rubbed here ... Are you screaming who took into account three beggarly voices there? The first church in Senode denied the Tsar’s, called up a lot of calls and took him out of the hall.
                      Neither airplanes, nor engines, your king could not build anything. Only peasants robbed and shot at the crows. Did you miss French rolls ?.
                      Yesterday, an hour in the sixth,
                      I went to the Haymarket;
                      There they beat a woman with a whip,
                      Young peasant woman.

                      Not a sound from her chest
                      Only the whistle whistled, playing ...
                      And I said to the Muse: “Look!
                      Your sister, dear! ”
                      https://stihi-russkih-poetov.ru/poems/nikolay-alekseevich-nekrasov-%22vcherashniy-den%2C-chasu-v-shestom...%22
                      Here is your barin-guzzling crispy rolls
                      1. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 20 June 2020 09: 32
                        -2
                        Quote: Zug
                        All the elections to the Duma of the peasants and the profonation people. She had no critical mass of votes, they nodded, no more. Don’t tell my smile.

                        Profanation and bullying of elections and citizens is "elections" with you.
                        You were afraid of them until the pig screech and enuresis.

                        And in Russia, there were a LOT of party candidates, incl. and BOLSHEVIKI in the Duma sat, Remember, ignoramus!
                        Quote: Zug
                        When Tsarke had grain reserves? Storage?

                        And some other state ones (Food Imperial Capital, both Zemstvo and public. Learn this, ignoramus!

                        with you, they even took the SEED FUND, not to mention the stocks:

                        your rule is HUNGERING all the time-hungry deaths, cannibalism and carnivores 1921,22,24,25,28,, 32,33,37,39,46,47 years-not a single Africa SUCH the horror of starvation-was not never been to Russia.
                        Chop it on your forehead
                        Quote: Zug
                        Neither aircraft, nor engines, nothing your king could build.

                        Russia is the WORLD'S ADVANCED science and technology — the first television show in the world, the invention of radio, the world's first motor ship-electric ship, 70% of the world motor ships — Russian, the world's first diesel submarine with Russian diesel engines, Russian Diesel, world leadership in naval aviation, The world's second carrier fleet, battleship fleet, the longest fleet in the world / road, etc., etc.

                        You didn’t build a battleship at all (there weren’t enough brains), you didn’t build such a road, and even a bridge longer than Alekseyevsky, you couldn’t overcome it in 70 years (though it puffed). etc., etc.

                        And yes, in addition to torn underpants, your swatters from Switzerland did not bring ANYTHING, not hundreds of thousands of teachers, or HIGHER EDUCATION INSTITUTIONS (where ALL Soviet scientists learned), not hundreds of thousands of schools, nor scientists, nor working people, nor fundsall this was BEFORE you.
                        And you can only imagine how many Gagarin, Kurchat Russia lost due to your KILLING of Russian science and scientists in 1917-1922
                        Quote: Zug
                        Here is your barin-guzzling crispy rolls

                        Quote: Zug
                        There they beat a woman with a whip

                        How they knocked out their eyes, broke their joints and burned with fire and other people and peasants rpri you-cm, Sholokhov and doparosa NKVD
                        Quote: Zug
                        Here is your barin-guzzling crispy rolls

                        Here are your "people's" Bolsheviks in BLOKADNY LENINGRAD: devouring the party activists of the Leningrad organization (diary of the district committee instructor Ribkovsky: “
                        Food here is like in peacetime in a good holiday home. Every day, meat: lamb, ham, chicken, goose, turkey, sausage. Or fish: bream, herring, smelt, and fried, and boiled, and aspic. Caviar, balyk, cheese, pies, cocoa, coffee, tea, three hundred grams of white and the same amount of black bread for a day, thirty grams of butter and fifty grams of grape wine, good port for lunch and dinner ...

                        .
                        What an abomination ...

                        Ida, remember your result, reneuch: the borders of Russia of the 17th century and the Russian cross is YOUR work
                      2. Zug
                        Zug 20 June 2020 09: 48
                        0
                        It's just that you are one of those who have been deprived of the opportunity to rob people for centuries, exploit workers for 14 hours a day and pay them pennies. I see you read the right literature. Transmitting science in the world would not buy rifles from the west, would not build military shipyards in American shipyards ships. I wouldn’t lose the WWI and the Japanese.)))))) But we built so many plants and factories that you didn’t even dream about education and the rest of human beings, if not immediately. Did you go about dispossessing and robbed the loot? Or did you bring the number of strikes of uprisings and riots? Or the number of shootings of these riots? Rest, you robbed people and spread rot for centuries. And if the Bolsheviks did this for the first 30 years, then this is a drop in the ocean that you did for centuries.
                      3. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 20 June 2020 10: 46
                        -2
                        Quote: Zug
                        It's just that you are one of those who have taken away the opportunity for centuries to rob people, exploit workers for 14 hours a day and pay them pennies.

                        Poke your wife, if he permits lol

                        Read how CHILDREN worked for YOU for 10-14 hours a day in adult work, mutilating and free of charge (not WWII) for Vyshinsky, and the peasants paid tribute (according to Stalin)

                        Shame ....
                        Quote: Zug
                        I see you read the right literature. Transmitting science in the world would not buy rifles from the west, would not build warships at American shipyards.

                        And England bought from the USA and France.
                        EVERYTHING did it.

                        Battleships were built by WE, but YOU were disgraced in the trash, and ships of our scale could be built already in ... 50 years.
                        Shame ....
                        Quote: Zug
                        .I would not lose PMV

                        Russia won the WWI (see the Treaty of Versailles), the Bolshevik power lost the war, which has no side to Russia
                        Quote: Zug
                        And we built so many factories and factories that you never dreamed

                        And it was built before you and built at such a pace that MORE would be built. than with you
                        Got it, no?
                        Quote: Zug
                        and education introduced and the rest of human beings, if not immediately

                        Without you, education would have come EARLIER: 4 thousand schools a year were built before you, nothing was built with you for 10 years. Got it, no?
                        Quote: Zug
                        Have you and yours dispossessed and stolen the loot? Not all people rot

                        Bring the decisions of the COURTS, about ". Robbed. No? That the robber is YOU, like the bandit. Which is recognized by the STATE
                        Quote: Zug
                        Or you bring the number of strikes of uprisings and riots? Or the number of shots of these riots?

                        Bring, of course, disgrace yourself against the backdrop of THOUSANDS of speeches against the "conscience" of the government and MILLIONS of its victims
                        Quote: Zug
                        Rest, you robbed people and spread rot for centuries. And if the Bolsheviks did this for the first 30 years, then this is a drop in the ocean that you did for centuries.

                        Our result is the BIGGEST MILL in the world and the MOST FASTEST PEOPLE, full of strength, energy and initiative, sober and hard-working.

                        YOUR result: this disaster of Russia-the border of the 17th century and DYING, torn, drunk by you, uninitiated unbelieving people.

                        These are just FACTS.
                    2. Zug
                      Zug 20 June 2020 10: 33
                      0
                      About borders and the cross-No native. This is your job. If the peasants, under 85 percent of the total population, lived happily. They would not have organized riots or rebellions. And they would not have gone for Lenin and the Bolsheviks. There were about 17 thousand of them in their 30th year. They would have strangled me. Do you write about the Smolny menu? Did you see enough of Pravdyuk? He also had Finland for 39 years white and fluffy. And for the 30 years of the 20th century we already have borders norm were. And you are in the Crimean all the passages and the Black Sea have erred, Yaponskaya is also. As well as the PMV.
            2. Sugar Honeyovich
              Sugar Honeyovich 19 June 2020 17: 51
              -1
              Quote: Olgovich
              those who chose not Bolsheviks, but normal people

              Are normal people Social Revolutionaries? laughing lol
              Quote: Olgovich
              should have obeyed .... them?

              And they had one to choose from. And after much hesitation, they chose ... who knows. Why - you can try to clarify with this example: suppose now the Bolsheviks appeared again and overthrew the ELECTED president with the whole government and dispersed the ELECTED Duma. How will the Russians react to this? Undoubtedly, some will call the Bolsheviks bandits. Well, in the ... majority? The question, of course, is interesting! lol good
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 20 June 2020 07: 26
                -1
                Quote: Sahar Medovich
                Are normal people Social Revolutionaries?

                Compared to your ghouls, everything is better!
                Quote: Sahar Medovich
                And they had one to choose from.

                fool Are you absolutely in Russian no boom boom?
                ONCE AGAIN I repeat the question: Why should TENS of millions of Russian citizens who chose not the Bolsheviks, but normal people, choose to obey .... and DO NOT fight them?
                Quote: Sahar Medovich
                the Bolsheviks appeared again and overthrew the ELECTED president with the whole government and dispersed the ELECTED Duma. How will the Russians react to this? Undoubtedly, some will call the Bolsheviks bandits. Well, in the ... majority? The question, of course, is interesting!

                Will zombies emerge from the underworld, having forever taken their fosterlings back? No.
                1. Sugar Honeyovich
                  Sugar Honeyovich 20 June 2020 09: 03
                  -1
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Compared to your ghouls, everything is better!

                  Our contemporaries seem to have seemed angels ... in comparison with others. yes
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  should have obeyed .... them and NOT fight them?

                  Elementary simple. The Bolsheviks were - not in words, but in deed - better than these abnormal ones.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Will zombies emerge from the underworld, having forever taken their fosterlings back?

                  The answer is again not substantive. fool
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 20 June 2020 11: 47
                    0
                    Quote: Sahar Medovich
                    Our contemporaries seem to have seemed angels ... in comparison with others

                    See election results.
                    Slaughterhouse as "elections" is recognized only by flayers
                    Quote: Sahar Medovich
                    Elementary simple. The Bolsheviks were - not in words, but in deed - better than these abnormal ones.

                    FIFTH TIME question: For what reason TENS of millions of Russian citizens, US elected for election not Bolshevikin, and normal people, had to obey .... them and DO NOT fight with them?
                    No answer....

                    Shame ...
                    Quote: Sahar Medovich
                    The answer is again not substantive.

                    All in essence: RussiansSpit on zombies that emerged from the underworld that spawned them and they just drown hi
                  2. Sugar Honeyovich
                    Sugar Honeyovich 20 June 2020 14: 29
                    0
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    See election results.

                    About them and speech. Although not only.
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    Slaughterhouse as "elections" is recognized only by flayers

                    Not true.
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    FIFTH TIME question

                    The answer is given. Read before writing.
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    Russians spit

                    Or AGAIN will support them in most wink
                  3. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 21 June 2020 06: 52
                    -1
                    Quote: Sahar Medovich
                    About them and speech. Although not only.

                    Only about them. This is a FREE CHOICE of a FREE people.

                    What you were afraid of before enuresis and paranoia all your life.
                    Quote: Sahar Medovich
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    Slaughterhow "elections" are recognized only by flayers

                    Not true.

                    This is the argument of the BUTCHER.
                    Quote: Sahar Medovich
                    The answer is given. Read before writing.

                    Not given: MYSELF read and the question: people have chosen. Some gangsters insulted their choice and outraged. WHY did they not have the right to SPEAK against them?
                    It came, no, I’m asking the fifth groove ?!
                    Quote: Sahar Medovich
                    Or AGAIN will support them in most

                    Do you like hungry mass deaths and cannibalism 1921,22,24,25,28,32,33,37,46,47?

                    And PEOPLE, no.

                    And you MUST warn them about this. in advance. To garlic

                    And see what they do.
                  4. Sugar Honeyovich
                    Sugar Honeyovich 21 June 2020 16: 22
                    0
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    What you were afraid of before enuresis and paranoia all your life.

                    Are you monarchists? Have they promoted one Romanov at Zemsky Sobor and is that enough? Then you do not dare to make claims against the Bolsheviks for moral reasons.
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    This is the argument of the BUTCHER.

                    The historian.
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    Not given:

                    Dan.
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    WHY did they not have the right to SPEAK against them?

                    They performed ... partially. but in the end they spoke for them. Selected i.e. their side. The fifth time I’m explaining, it’s not, not?
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    love hungry mass deaths and cannibalism

                    Like all normal people, no. That is why they are opposed to the "old regime" and are ready at least to vote for the Bolsheviks, at least to support them in a different way.
          2. Zug
            Zug 20 June 2020 11: 08
            -1
            You ruined everything that you could ditch and yourself signed a sentence. I rested in peony camps, rode a ship in KYUM, studied for free (not in order to get to the machine because I needed to know the numbers and measures) I was given 3 apartments for free. my grandfather had honor and glory. He is an officer of the NKVD)))) Almost all my relatives had a higher education. Under the tsar, they all would only have a 16-hour working day and a Plow
        3. Zug
          Zug 20 June 2020 08: 47
          0
          There, according to the law, there wasn’t anyone from the peasants, they nodded. And the Essers, by the way, shouted: the land to the peasants could well have won, but at the right time they squeezed the little land ... The opponent writes there about the people, PEOPLE weren’t there.
  3. Sugar Honeyovich
    Sugar Honeyovich 18 June 2020 18: 12
    0
    Quote: Olgovich
    rose to war with them.

    And for whom? lol
  4. Sugar Honeyovich
    Sugar Honeyovich 19 June 2020 18: 05
    0
    Quote: Olgovich
    the country did NOT accept the bandits and rose to war with them.

    Has at least 1% of those who have risen gained (in light of the fact that 5% participated on both sides)? laughing laughing laughing
  • tihonmarine
    tihonmarine 18 June 2020 09: 31
    +1
    Quote: Olgovich
    Returned correctly, incorrectly that returned not to Russia

    This is a big mistake.
  • Dr. Frankenstucker
    Dr. Frankenstucker 18 June 2020 10: 12
    -1
    Quote: tatra
    returned to the composition of the country the territories of Russia that you seized.


    funny geography.
    Do you refer to whom at all?
  • Octopus
    Octopus 18 June 2020 06: 56
    -2
    Quote: Olgovich
    In the OCCUPIED part of Russia, the German OCCUPANTS created puppet hostile regimes, and the Bolsheviks RECOGNIZED them and paid them tribute in gold, ruining the country. These are just FACTS.

    The Baltic states were returned correctly, quite legally.

    )))

    Again you are with your bizarre inner world))). German agents gave the Baltic to the Germans, and then the same German agents took the Baltic back. Russia in the 40th year was not on the map, but Russia in the 40th year "returned its own" quite legally.

    Oh well.
    Quote: Olgovich
    Ulmanis’s fascist regime didn’t stand at all ...

    The fascist Ulmanis, for all his shortcomings, was much closer to normality than Comrade. VYSHINSKY, who advised him. By the way, Ulmanis died in a Soviet prison in the 42nd year, which, knowing Comrade Vyshinsky, a Soviet diplomat, is not surprising.
    1. tatra
      tatra 18 June 2020 07: 30
      -2
      Delusions and lies.
      1. The comment was deleted.
    2. Dr. Frankenstucker
      Dr. Frankenstucker 18 June 2020 10: 31
      -1
      Quote: Octopus
      The fascist Ulmanis, for all his shortcomings, was much closer to normality,


      Ulmanis was a dark horse. However, due to the mental characteristics of the "small but proud nations", he had the usual vassal reflections - a hedgehog, sorry, it was clear that all these parades of independence during the interbellum period would end up attaching "Versailles" and other "misunderstandings" to one of the two empires.
      1. Octopus
        Octopus 18 June 2020 11: 28
        +1
        Quote: Dr. Frankenshtuzer
        all these parades of independence during the interbellum period will end up attaching "Versailles" and other "misunderstandings" to one of the two empires.

        You are right, the countries between Germany and the USSR are damn unlucky with geography.

        And what is the thesis?
    3. Olgovich
      Olgovich 18 June 2020 12: 09
      0
      Quote: Octopus
      Again you are with your bizarre inner world)))

      He seems like that only from Nepyatn: because of your Nepyatnosti you "have increased shaggy (s).
      Quote: Octopus
      German agents surrendered the Baltic states to the Germans, and then the same German agents took the Baltic states back.

      if Hitler built autobahns, then you ... hate them?
      or let them stay?
      Quote: Octopus
      Russia in the 40th year was not on the map, but Russia in the 40th year "returned its own" quite legally.

      Russia was on the map, it was not on the map World. At school, in class will explain to you yes
      Quote: Octopus
      The fascist Ulmanis, for all his shortcomings, was much closer to normality than Comrade. VYSHINSKY, who advised him.

      Two of a Kind. yes
  • Fitter65
    Fitter65 18 June 2020 14: 09
    +4
    Quote: Olgovich
    and the Bolsheviks RECOGNIZED them and paid them tribute in gold, ruining the country.

    And why the magnificent tsarist generals admitted that Germany occupied the Baltic states. And by the way, what was the state of the Russian army after the democratic bourgeois government of Kerensky came to power? Sorry, but when you completely ruined all state institutions, it was somehow not easy to restore everything right away, therefore the young state was forced to save at least those crumbs from the remnants of the former Empire. By the way, recall that there Kolchak promised his curators from France, the UK and others ... Such a strange approach.
  • kalibr
    kalibr 18 June 2020 06: 21
    0
    Do not do good to people and they will not do you harm in return!
    1. tatra
      tatra 18 June 2020 07: 33
      0
      The anomaly of humanity, the enemies of the Communists in the USSR, generally lacks a sense of gratitude. They always, both during the USSR and after the capture of the USSR, parasitize and parasitize due to the labor of others, but they do not have the slightest feeling of gratitude to those whose labor they parasitized, both to the Soviet government and their anti-Soviet power .
      1. kalibr
        kalibr 18 June 2020 08: 06
        +1
        Irina! If you accept your statement as an axiom, then it turns out that the population of all countries of the former socialist camp overwhelmingly consists of parasites of other people's labor and that the anomaly of humanity also makes up its majority. And this cannot be. Maybe the opposite, huh?
        1. tatra
          tatra 18 June 2020 08: 22
          +1
          Get back to reality. The people on the territory of the USSR, and in the countries of Eastern Europe, are divided into Soviet and anti-Soviet. As the Soviet people first created their ideology, but the anti-Soviet people on the territory of Soviet Russia / USSR and Eastern Europe did not disappear, so the anti-Soviet people after the seizure of the republics of the USSR and the countries of Eastern Europe created their ideology, but the Soviet people also did not disappear .
          1. kalibr
            kalibr 18 June 2020 08: 24
            0
            And which people are more?
            1. tatra
              tatra 18 June 2020 08: 36
              -2
              Of course, Soviet. So, out of the 100 million adult population of Russia, the anti-Soviet people are those who have enriched themselves at the expense of Russia and its people, who have ruined ALL branches of Russia, who categorically do not want to take responsibility for Russia and its people, for everything that it has done with Russia and its people, instills anger and hatred, slander on the history of our country. A very significant moment was when the Web discussed the results of a Levada poll about people's attitudes towards Soviet and Yeltsin-Putin authorities. And the representatives of the Soviet people in the comments expressed FOR THE Soviet power, and the representatives of the anti-Soviet people selflessly rushed to anger AGAINST the Soviet power, that is, in the comments FOR the power, the Soviet people defeated.
              1. kalibr
                kalibr 18 June 2020 08: 51
                +3
                Quote: tatra
                That is, in the comments FOR the power, the Soviet people defeated.

                But we do not live in the comments. And it turns out strange: the Soviet people are many more, and its anti-Soviet people ... (the word is forbidden in VO, meaning not quite traditional sexual intercourse) and tail and mane. That is, he is powerful, and strong, and skilled. And the Soviet ... so some patience, allowing you to enrich yourself at your own expense and winning only in the comments. Just some they have with you. Strange, isn't it?
                1. tatra
                  tatra 18 June 2020 10: 25
                  0
                  And what would you like from the Soviet people after the anti-Soviet people seized the country, imposed their power, the System, created repressive organs and an army to defend themselves? So that he, like the anti-Soviet people under Soviet rule, would unleash wars and organize riots? And despite the ravings of the anti-Soviet people about the "leader and the herd", leaders and organizers are needed in any business, and therefore, as the anti-Soviet people staged a large-scale persecution of Grudinin, as soon as they saw his rapidly growing popularity among the Soviet people, the anti-Soviet people proved how terribly afraid he was even a "pale shadow"
                  Lenin.
              2. tihonmarine
                tihonmarine 18 June 2020 10: 00
                0
                Quote: tatra
                And representatives of the Soviet people in the comments expressed FOR Soviet power

                On the one hand, all this looks correct, the Soviet people spoke in favor of Soviet power. But the second side, as it is not defined. And what kind of Soviet power can there be now? The one that we lost in 1991 will not come back, or rather it will not be returned in that state. And what a new Soviet power could be, we cannot imagine, because the mentality of the people is different, and the people themselves are different. That Soviet people has decreased significantly in 29 years, but the people who were born in 1991 have grown, and now they are the main force of the state. So the Soviet state can be built, but it will be completely different from what it was before 1991. But in order to build such a state, a "driving force" is needed, without it there will be either a Maidan or pogroms like in the United States. And this is a revolutionary party capable of taking power into its own hands and retaining this power. But so far there is no such force, and by methods of pressure from above (the good king will come), only a village closet can be built.
            2. tihonmarine
              tihonmarine 18 June 2020 09: 39
              0
              Quote: kalibr
              And which people are more?

              Watching where? In Russia, in the republics of the former USSR or in the countries of Eastern Europe? At the same time, not forgetting that the USSR has been gone for 29 years.
          2. apro
            apro 18 June 2020 08: 43
            0
            Quote: tatra
            The people on the territory of the USSR and in the countries of Eastern Europe are divided into Soviet and anti-Soviet

            Tatra. With all due respect .... no words.
            Extremely inappropriate division. We govern the people in the Soviet way, we get the pro-Soviet population ... we are retreating from socialism. Birthmarks of petty-bourgeois thinking are emerging among the population.
            1. tatra
              tatra 18 June 2020 08: 53
              -2
              What nonsense? In October 1917, the country was seized by the Soviet people, and imposed on the country their power, System, economy, ideology. During the anti-Soviet Perestroika, the country was captured by the anti-Soviet people, and imposed on the country their power, System, economy, ideology. The Soviet and anti-Soviet people are antipode peoples, radically different both in work and in mentality, intellect, priorities, attitude towards their country, history of their country. And this is how I have been communicating since 2008, when the forum of the "Name of Russia" project opened and during all this time I have met only two representatives of the anti-Soviet people capable of discussions about the history of our country, and even then they were monarchists.
              1. Zug
                Zug 18 June 2020 09: 29
                +4
                In 17, we did not "capture" anything. Provisional Prospect had as many rights to power as the Bolsheviks. But the chasers overthrew the monarchy in 17.
          3. Dr. Frankenstucker
            Dr. Frankenstucker 18 June 2020 11: 04
            +2
            Quote: tatra
            Get back to reality.


            Living in its own black-and-white matrix, where there are "Soviet" and "anti-Soviet" peoples, it is rather strange to talk about reality. At least.
            For 30 years there has been no Union, and resuscitation is not expected, a generation with immunity to relapse has grown, and you are talking about some advisers and anti-advisers. We must look forward, and not engage in retrograde utopias.
        2. Was mammoth
          Was mammoth 18 June 2020 09: 21
          -1
          Quote: kalibr
          Maybe the opposite, huh?

          According to your favorite theory of parasites should be 20% wink
          Quote: tatra
          ... parasitize and parasitize due to the labor of others ....

          The Baltic states know how ..., they knew how ( wink ) to work hard and well, so that their share in the achievement of the successes of the Soviet Baltic states. They are different. There were Latvian riflemen and there were SS men, they were for joining the USSR and there were "enemies of the communists" ...
          There is one more point. In retraining in Riga, I lived a total of a couple of years. I even began to understand a little in Latvian. So while walking in Riga, in the center, he showed his father’s apartment building, which, of course, was nationalized. All generations have lived with them under both capitalism and socialism. So the class question was always sharper.
          1. kalibr
            kalibr 18 June 2020 11: 28
            -2
            Quote: There was a mammoth
            Quote: kalibr
            Maybe the opposite, huh?
            According to your favorite theory of parasites should be 20%

            Here I completely agree with you. But in the Tatra / Irina it turns out that there were 80% of them, but this can’t be!
      2. Dr. Frankenstucker
        Dr. Frankenstucker 18 June 2020 10: 36
        +2
        Quote: tatra
        parasitize due to other people's labor


        isn’t it yours?

        All around are enemies, ungrateful parasites, anti-communists and other unpleasant subjects? Are you not afraid to live in such an environment? Sleep with light and an aspen stake under the pillow?
        1. tatra
          tatra 18 June 2020 10: 41
          -2
          Ha, and this is the fundamental difference between the Soviet and the anti-Soviet people. When the anti-Soviet people, puffed up with hypertrophied conceit, rush to come forward with criticism of how the Soviet people worked, the Soviet people defend themselves, tells how he has done a lot of useful work for his country. And when they criticize the work of the anti-Soviet people, they are not able to defend themselves, and, as always, rushes to anger AGAINST the Soviet people,.
          1. Dr. Frankenstucker
            Dr. Frankenstucker 18 June 2020 10: 45
            -2
            Well, porridge ...
            "Anti-Soviet people" is strong, yes ...
            1. tatra
              tatra 18 June 2020 10: 48
              -3
              Well, refute me, if you can’t, don’t torture Claudia, but I don’t need your rudeness.
              1. kalibr
                kalibr 18 June 2020 11: 10
                +2
                So no one Irina is rude to you. Everyone is just surprised that there are so many "Soviet people", and for some reason their "anti-Soviet people" is annoying ... well, you understand. It’s not smart, huh? Maybe this "Soviet people" of yours is simply stupid and this is the very thing for him ...
          2. kalibr
            kalibr 18 June 2020 11: 08
            0
            Quote: tatra
            the Soviet people defends themselves, talks about how he has done a lot of useful work for his country. And when they criticize the work of the anti-Soviet people, they are not able to defend themselves, and, as always, rushes to anger AGAINST the Soviet people,.

            Why didn't he defend himself in 91 and now he can't do anything. Isn't it bigger? And his minority is all ... and ....! Probably, you Tatra need to reread Ostrovsky's play "Wolves and Sheep". It's about the majority and the minority ...
          3. kalibr
            kalibr 18 June 2020 11: 30
            -1
            Quote: tatra
            the Soviet people defend themselves, talks about how he has done a lot of useful work for his country

            It’s just that he could not protect himself or the country ... he was only fit to make a joke!
  • knn54
    knn54 18 June 2020 06: 25
    +7
    "Occupation is the temporary occupation by the armed forces of one state of part or all of the territory of another state during a war between them with the establishment of a military administration in the occupied territory without transferring sovereignty over the occupied territory to the occupying state."
    And which paragraph corresponds to the legal norms of INTERNATIONAL law on occupation?
    1. Octopus
      Octopus 18 June 2020 06: 59
      -2
      Quote: knn54
      And which paragraph corresponds to the legal norms of INTERNATIONAL law on occupation?

      What's the problem? The Baltic countries were occupied by the USSR from the 40th to the 90th year, in the same Estonia, for example, the Government in exile had been operating all this time.
      1. tatra
        tatra 18 June 2020 07: 42
        +1
        The enemies of the communists always have double standards in everything. That the Russian enemies of the Communists took Crimea away from the Ukrainian enemies of the Communists is called "return", but the fact that the Soviet Communists returned to the country those captured by their enemies in the Civil Russian lands, you call "occupation".
        1. Octopus
          Octopus 18 June 2020 08: 28
          +1
          Quote: tatra
          the Communists took Crimea away from the Ukrainian enemies of the Communists - is called "return",

          Excuse me, who called this year 14 "comeback"? Am I really?
      2. bk0010
        bk0010 18 June 2020 09: 43
        +3
        Russia bought these territories from the Swedes, what other occupation? His returned.
        1. Red Dragon
          Red Dragon 18 June 2020 10: 02
          0
          Did you buy Lithuania too? Poles have sections laughing
          1. bk0010
            bk0010 18 June 2020 14: 50
            -1
            And Lithuania was generally the second Russian state (like Prussia and Saxony among the Germans). And why the bug took their glorious name for themselves is completely incomprehensible.
        2. Octopus
          Octopus 18 June 2020 10: 15
          +3
          Quote: bk0010
          Russia bought these territories from the Swedes

          1. With the population or what?
          2. And what does the USSR have to do with the relations of the Romanovs with the Swedes?

          By the way, about the Swedes.

          The first university in Russia was closed under Alexei Tishaysh in 1656. It was the University of Dorpat, founded in 1632 and became Russian with Dorpat (now Tartu). After Derpt was freed from the Russians, the university resumed work, but again closed due to the appearance of Russians there in 1710.

          Restored in 1802.
          1. fuxila
            fuxila 18 June 2020 14: 03
            +1
            Quote: Octopus
            1. With the population or what?
            2. And what does the USSR have to do with the relations of the Romanovs with the Swedes?

            Of course with the population, just like the United States bought Louisiana, Florida and Alaska. As for the USSR and the Romanovs, as well as in the USA, those presidents who signed the purchase acts for a long time in the grave and Trump has nothing to do with them. By the way, the US country at that time was also called in a different way - the North American United States (USA).
            1. Octopus
              Octopus 18 June 2020 14: 17
              +1
              USA was called that. As they were called in Russian, it is a private affair of the Russians.

              And what did you remember here the USA? The United States is one country, as it was. You USSR has one country with the Russian Empire, or what?
              1. fuxila
                fuxila 18 June 2020 18: 48
                0
                And what did you remember the USA here?

                Why not understand? You asked a question whether you bought it or not, and I answered you, although you probably know it yourself ... And using the example of the USA, you showed that you sold territories at that time and this is not some kind of Russian-Swedish know-how . Two states (as in the case of Alaska) sold and bought land with the people living in them (Sweden-Russia and Russia-USA), without any referenda.
                The United States is one country, as it was. You USSR has one country with the Russian Empire, or what?

                Political regimes are different, but the country is one. Do you have the French Kingdom, the French Republic, then the empire, then again the kingdom, again the empire and the republic is one country or not?
          2. bk0010
            bk0010 18 June 2020 14: 56
            +1
            Quote: Octopus

            1. With the population or what?
            2. And what does the USSR have to do with the relations of the Romanovs with the Swedes?
            1. And with the population it is very interesting. These lands were inhabited by Ostseem Germans, who played a significant role in the history of Russia. And those whom you now mean by the population, the Germans were not letting them close to the threshold. In cities at all, and in villages - with rare exceptions. Russia, however, took local tribes into the empire on an equal footing, and began to develop them. The peak of the culture of the Baltic states occurred in Soviet times (Churlenis, Budraitis, all kinds of basketball players).
            2. If you did not notice, the USSR was located on the lands of the Russian Empire. Poland and Finland were buried, but the rest was collected.
            1. Octopus
              Octopus 18 June 2020 21: 18
              0
              Quote: bk0010
              If you did not notice, the USSR was located on the lands of the Russian Empire

              The Kingdom of Vandals was located on the lands of Carthage. This did not make the Vandals the Carthaginians.
              Quote: bk0010
              These lands were inhabited by Ostseem Germans, who played a significant role in the history of Russia. And those whom you now mean by the population, the Germans did not let close on the threshold

              What an interesting argument. Consequently, the Baltic states are Prussian land. They have always managed without Russia
              1. bk0010
                bk0010 18 June 2020 21: 20
                0
                Quote: Octopus
                The Kingdom of Vandals was located on the lands of Carthage. This did not make the Vandals the Carthaginians.
                These are vandal problems.
                Quote: Octopus
                What an interesting argument. Consequently, the Baltic states are Prussian land. They have always managed without Russia
                No, the Baltic states are Russian land: we bought it.
                1. Octopus
                  Octopus 18 June 2020 23: 40
                  -1
                  Quote: bk0010
                  we bought it.

                  The Germans?

                  It is not good to trade stolen.
                  1. bk0010
                    bk0010 19 June 2020 00: 49
                    0
                    From the Swedes, learn the materiel.
                    1. Liam
                      Liam 19 June 2020 01: 02
                      0
                      ))) And when did the Swedes buy from whom?
                      1. bk0010
                        bk0010 19 June 2020 08: 56
                        0
                        And the Swedes knocked out the Germans from there.
                    2. Octopus
                      Octopus 19 June 2020 01: 51
                      0
                      Quote: bk0010
                      From the Swedes, learn the materiel.

                      Quote: bk0010
                      These lands were inhabited by Ostseem Germans, who played a significant role in the history of Russia.

                      Somehow it turned out badly.

                      And yes.
                      Quote: bk0010
                      Russia, however, took local tribes into the empire on an equal footing, and began to develop them. The peak of the culture of the Baltic states occurred in Soviet times


                      University of Derpt - opened by the Swedes in 1632, closed by Russians in 1656, reopened in 1802 as the Imperial University of Derpt.

                      Vilnius University - founded in 1579, the Russians reached these places only in 1796, so it did not stop its work, it was rediscovered in 1803 by the Russians as Imperial University of Vilna (imperial, some kind of mercy).

                      Riga Technical University - opened in 1896.

                      Basketball players, you say, all sorts.
                      1. bk0010
                        bk0010 19 June 2020 08: 55
                        +1
                        Quote: Octopus
                        Somehow it turned out badly.
                        It’s absolutely normal: it was under feudalism (I’m kind of Tver, so you, Ryazan’s face, are now raking), and nations are a product of capitalism. There, the determining role was who your master was and what your religion was. Therefore, the fact that at first in Sweden and then in Russia there lived German Ostsey barons didn’t soar anyone, it just didn’t occur to me that you could fight for such a reason.
                        Quote: Octopus
                        University of Derpt - opened by the Swedes in 1632, closed by Russians in 1656, reopened in 1802 as the Imperial University of Derpt.

                        Vilnius University - founded in 1579, the Russians reached these places only in 1796, so it did not stop its work, it was rediscovered in 1803 by the Russians as Imperial University of Vilna (imperial, some kind of mercy).

                        Riga Technical University - opened in 1896.
                        Yes, the Swedes and Germans were advanced nations. What bothers you?
      3. Irbenwolf
        Irbenwolf 18 June 2020 09: 48
        +4
        Tell me, but if 50 people leave Russia and call themselves a "government in exile" - will Russia become occupied?
        1. Octopus
          Octopus 18 June 2020 10: 21
          +2
          As the States and the EU decide. If the government is recognized in exile, then yes, of course. As mainland China, it was long captured by rioters, and the Chinese government was in Taiwan.

          By the way, to warm up. The Russian government in exile will be able to dispose of all the money stolen in Russia and taken out, both pseudo-state, such as funds from the Central Bank, and pseudo-frequent, such as, say, Sberbank. At least hypothetically, currency-issuing countries may provide him with such an opportunity.

          True, it is unlikely that Russia’s rising from its knees will be accompanied by such a resounding success.
          1. Irbenwolf
            Irbenwolf 18 June 2020 11: 23
            +2
            Quote: Octopus
            As the States and the EU decide.

            Since when does the population living inside Russia care about who the US and the EU recognize? The communist regimes of the Soviet Union and Communist China were fully recognized in the 30s and 70s, barely the need for resources (including political) of these regions, for consumers, in the person of the USA and the EU became significant.

            Everything that was taken out of Russia is lost for Russia and nothing belonging to the Russian people has been taken out among this, so crying that the Russian people might lose something well ... is not rational, but limiting the conditions of export must be dealt with the day before yesterday. Thanks to the "partners" it has become a little more profitable to store stolen goods in Russia. at least for a bribe you can buy it off, and not "in the income of the casino" as in the West.
            1. Octopus
              Octopus 18 June 2020 14: 56
              +1
              Quote: IrbenWolf
              All that was exported from Russia was lost for Russia and nothing belonging to the Russian people was taken out of it, because to cry that the Russian people may lose something well ... is not rational

              That's fine. If this logic suits you, then all the rules.
    2. Zug
      Zug 18 June 2020 09: 30
      0
      Leading the battle ....
  • rocket757
    rocket757 18 June 2020 06: 36
    +1
    A CROSS should have been erected on these conversations long ago! They escaped from our "paradise" they now have a soy, gayropean "paradise" .... so in twenty years, when they scatter / die there everything is final, perhaps we will go as if to a nature reserve ... but for now, PF-E ... Maybe they will survive, they will survive ... but still pf-e.
    1. Egoza
      Egoza 18 June 2020 06: 42
      +1
      Quote: rocket757
      when they run away \ die there everything is final, maybe we will go as to a reserve of something there

      The main thing is not to take back, even if they will be very asked to occupy them again.
      1. rocket757
        rocket757 18 June 2020 07: 24
        +2
        Quote: Egoza
        The main thing is not to take back, even if they will be very asked to occupy them again.

        Ha, it is not so easy to escape from the "gayropeyskogo paradise" and there are a lot of babosiks .... then, politicians and officials rule, but they have everything in chocolate!
  • Ru_Na
    Ru_Na 18 June 2020 06: 48
    +7
    The invader came from the east and set up ports, industrial enterprises, developed energy, infrastructure, the education system, turned the Baltic States into a developed region, but the proud local gobble, used to spoiling where to rub and wipe with burdock, did not appreciate the occupant's merits and after his departure quickly returned to the previous level of life!
    1. Red Dragon
      Red Dragon 18 June 2020 07: 08
      -6
      Yes. So the invader did not get from the East to Helsinki, how poor Finns suffered. wink They looked through the Gulf of Finland and cried, well, when will you take us to a large family of fraternal peoples. wink
      1. Zug
        Zug 18 June 2020 09: 32
        +4
        Since the age of 18, the Finns have watched and cried dreaming about eastern Karelia, the Kola Peninsula and Finland to Svir. Dreams "do not come true"
      2. Crane
        Crane 18 June 2020 09: 33
        +1
        And what did Chukhna get after leaving Russia - were the harsh farmers building and buying squirrel pelts on their own skins?
        1. Red Dragon
          Red Dragon 18 June 2020 10: 10
          +2
          As you say "Chukhna" went to Vyborg. But this misunderstanding was corrected, the whole "Chukhnya" was freed from Vyborg with a broom in the ass. wink
          1. Crane
            Crane 18 June 2020 10: 25
            0
            Chukhna out of the blue went to Chukhonka.
  • Red Dragon
    Red Dragon 18 June 2020 07: 02
    -2
    Of course a myth. wink If they rested, like the Finns, there would be a chance to break out of the fraternal embrace. And since they didn’t break out, they themselves wanted to. laughing
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 18 June 2020 09: 16
      +1
      Quote: Red Dragon
      If they rested, like the Finns, there would be a chance to break out of the fraternal embrace.

      No chance. Unlike Finland, from which the USSR needed the Karelian Isthmus and a base on the northern coast of the Gulf of Finland, the Baltics were needed completely. At least for "leveling the front line", because theoretically it is easier to defend the Grodno-Vilnius-Klaipeda line than Grodno-Polotsk-Pskov-Ivangorod. Yes, and a possible strike by the enemy's mechanical units at the beginning of the war from a line only 140 km away from Leningrad was also not particularly pleasing to the General Staff.
      Well, the fact that in practice the defense did not work out in PribVO is another story.
      1. Red Dragon
        Red Dragon 18 June 2020 09: 34
        0
        Here you are absolutely right. But if they even tried to push a little, they could have remained formally independent, with the pro-Soviet governments and military bases of the USSR on the territory. The front line would not need to be aligned then, how do you like this option? repeat
        1. Octopus
          Octopus 18 June 2020 11: 32
          +2
          Quote: Red Dragon
          But if they even tried to push a little, they could have remained formally independent, with the pro-Soviet governments and military bases of the USSR on the territory.

          No. Only have time to lie down under Hitler before the Pact, and then in time to run across like the Finns. But Hitler's potency at that moment was directed in the other direction.
  • tatra
    tatra 18 June 2020 07: 53
    -1
    If the Bolsheviks-communists and their supporters, after their seizure of the country, created a positive, creative, truly patriotic ideology FOR themselves, FOR what they did, then their enemies after their seizure of the republics of the USSR have an evil, slanderous ideology AGAINST, cowardly whining that they always have nothing to do with everything, “pitiful” “yes, we are all so innocently repressed, deported for no reason, starved, occupied”. And they did not create a normal State from any of the Soviet republics they captured, everywhere, compared with the Soviet period, total degradation, starting with morality and ethics, impoverishment, extinction. Therefore, they really need slander against those from whom they have taken the country - in order to justify the capture of the country.
  • Takashi
    Takashi 18 June 2020 08: 10
    -4
    read the article.
    and increasingly assured of the occupation. (about how peace treaties were signed with the Baltic countries - several History books unequivocally say that this was nothing more than an open threat - an ultimatum. The armed forces of these countries could not have any significance. Well, the Western countries simply didn’t care - the world already At first, the people of these countries accepted the USSR amicably, but the USSR began to change the existing economic and property principles, coupled with terrorism against the active part of the population - led to the fact that in the war against fascism, most of the population was actively against the USSR and partisan there was no movement on the territory of these republics either. Well, after the war, the economies of all the republics were a priority, even to the detriment of Russia. There is no reason to be surprised.)
  • Revolver
    Revolver 18 June 2020 08: 10
    0
    So think, why was it all necessary? The Germans passed through the positions of the Red Army in the Baltics like a knife through butter, and near Pskov, Luga, and Leningrad they had to be met in hastily equipped positions with units "from pine forest", including the militia. And so, if the limitrophes were formally independent, even the time for German tanks to drive through them at full throttle would be enough for regular units to raise alarm and occupy long-term fortified lines of defense. And the fleet would not have to arrange a tragic passage to Kronstadt under bombs through mines. And after the war, the Balts took more from the common pocket than they put there.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 18 June 2020 09: 29
      +4
      Quote: Nagan
      The Germans passed through the positions of the Red Army in the Baltics like a knife through butter, and near Pskov, Luga, and Leningrad they had to be met in hastily equipped positions with units "from pine forest", including the militia.

      There will be no neutrals on the border of the USSR and Germany. Hungarians are an example. If the Baltic states are not under the USSR, then it means under the Germans.
      So under the "independent" Baltic states, the Germans start from the Narva-Daugavpils-Vilnius line. 140 km to Leningrad + flank attack on the ZOVO forces. And where will we build in such a situation hastily equipped positionswhen will the cadre army be defeated?
      Plus, the Germans will not have extended communications, which greatly complicate their life in real life (up to the "withdrawal from the allowance" of the infantry of GA "Sever" and the transfer of all rear capacities to the supply of the 4th TGr) - they will take their warehouses to the Tribaltika.
      Quote: Nagan
      And so, if the limotrophs were formally independent, even enough time for German tanks to go through them at full throttle would be enough for the regular units to raise the alarm and take up long-term fortified defense lines.

      Judging by the results of the defense of the Stalin Line in the southern direction, this will give nothing. Defense of SD with infantry filling. supported by artillery up to 8 "calibers, it was broken through in 3-4 days.
      And judging by the Senno-Lepel-and the Red Army forces cannot advance on the mobilized side either.
      Quote: Nagan
      And the fleet would not have to arrange a tragic transition to Kronstadt under bombs through mines.

      Yeah ... because he couldn’t get further than Loks and Kotka. The same German MHs will not need to risk entering our terrorist waterways - they will put their MHs in peacetime, in Estonian waters, and much east of the real world - somewhere near Gogland.
      1. Revolver
        Revolver 18 June 2020 18: 56
        0
        Suppose that formal independence was left to the limitrophes. The Molotov-Ribbentrop Non-Aggression Pact is still in force, and the corps are still stationed. Accordingly, unlike Hungary, there are no Germans there, and the local "armies" are not Hungary, not Romania, and not even the Blue Division. Even if they support the Germans, they won't make the difference. Barbarossa's plan is still in place. Accordingly, there are 2 options.
        1. Attack on the entire front 22/6, incl. to Leningrad. To do this, the Wehrmacht must begin to send troops to the Baltic states at least another 20/6. The GRU agents and Soviet consular offices are working, so Schulenburg is on the carpet near Molotov a couple of hours after the start of the input. An order is coming to the troops ... You, as a military man and a professional, have a better idea of ​​what than I, an amateur with a military education in the scope of a military department. So on the way of the Germans from the Baltic States to Leningrad there is a fully equipped and, more importantly, staffed defense line Pskov-Ostrov. In real life, having defeated the Volga Military District, the Germans passed through this line almost without noticing it, since there were neither heavy weapons nor sufficient personnel to protect it. Even the commander of the ZOV Pavlov will not be able to ignore the direct and unequivocal order and at least withdraw the troops from the barracks and equipment from the garages. Well, the whole front from the White to the Black Sea will meet the war in at least a little better readiness. The corps of the Red Army in the Baltic States are sacrificed, but this is still less than the Minsk boiler, which was in real life.
        2. Since the Germans understand all of the above and do not want to lose the factor of surprise for the sake of synchronization of the attack of Leningrad, they start entering Lithuania from East Prussia on 22/6 at 04:00. The Soviet border is 400 km away. The mechanized units of the Wehrmacht, even moving at a maximum speed of tanks of about 50 km / h, and not stopping to refuel, reach around noon until the Maginot line, but not hastily dug up infantry cells and machine gun dugouts at 3 rpm. The personnel parts, previously fortified according to all the rules of the position, and even in some places concrete bunkers with machine guns and artillery. And given the three infantry corps in the Baltic states, they will come sooner in the morning of 23/6, hardly before. As a result of such a failure of the Leningrad Front, which was real, it did not happen, and perhaps the blockade was not even established.

        But if you plan a war with "little blood, a mighty blow" on foreign territory, then yes, it is right to attack Konigsberg exactly from Lithuania, without wasting time on a march through the land of the Limitrophes.
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 18 June 2020 19: 50
          0
          Quote: Nagan
          The GRU agents and Soviet consular offices are working, so Schulenburg is on the carpet near Molotov a couple of hours after the start of the input.

          Are you talking about the GRU and the NKVD, which did not reveal the concentration of forces on "Barbarossa"? And fed the leadership with disinformation about the lack of concentration of forces and about the priority for the Reich to end the war with Britain?
          Quote: Nagan
          So on the way of the Germans from the Baltic States to Leningrad there is a fully equipped and, more importantly, staffed defense line Pskov-Ostrov.

          2-3 days. Not more.
          You can not count on SD. Uv. M. Svirin quoted from the reports of the NKVD on the "LS" - planning flaws, multiplied by construction defects, aggravated by poor preparation of pulbats and general obsolescence of weapons and DOS deployment schemes. In short, the Finns and Romanians can be detained, but not the Germans - they even went through the Maginot Line.
          Quote: Nagan
          Well, the whole front from the White to the Black Sea will meet the war in at least a little better readiness.

          Without advance mobilization - hardly.
          Quote: Nagan
          The personnel parts, previously fortified according to all the rules of the position, and even in some places concrete bunkers with machine guns and artillery.

          South direction. The mothballed cannons of the Stalin Line with bullets, infantry filling, and artillery were broken through in 3-4 days.
          Quote: Nagan
          And given the three infantry corps in the Baltic states, they will come sooner in the morning of 23/6, hardly before.

          For a couple of days, the Red Army, even mobilized equipment will not have time to collect. But it still needs to be repaired - completely dead cars came to the BUS-39 from N / x.
          Quote: Nagan
          But if you plan a war with "little blood, a mighty blow" on foreign territory, then yes, it is right to attack Konigsberg exactly from Lithuania, without wasting time on a march through the land of the Limitrophes.

          And if you plan a war "from defense", then keep the Lida-Klaipeda line in 335 km in theory much easier than the Lida-Polotsk-Pskov-Ivangorod line 730 km. smile
          1. Revolver
            Revolver 18 June 2020 20: 00
            0
            Quote: Alexey RA
            South direction. The mothballed cannons of the Stalin Line with bullets, infantry filling, and artillery were broken through in 3-4 days.

            And if it had not been initially preserved? If in the concrete bunkers there would still be serf artillery, and not pulbates?
            Quote: Alexey RA
            not Germans — they even passed through the Maginot Line.

            Yes, gone. Bypassing through the Ardennes and Belgium. They didn’t even try on the forehead. The Red Army also passed the Mannerheim Line, but - on the forehead, there was no Ardenne to let the tanks bypass. And in winter, in 40-degree frosts, when it’s not like the water in the radiators, the vodka in the jars froze.
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 19 June 2020 09: 00
              0
              Quote: Nagan
              And if it had not been initially preserved? If in the concrete bunkers there would still be serf artillery, and not pulbates?

              What kind of serf artillery? It’s only Zvyagintsev’s bunker made of concrete of the highest grade cram a marine 8. "In real life, everything was much more prosaic:
              The length along the front of each UR was on average 80-90 km, although there were some giants that occupied up to 200 km along the front, but not a single one extended 50 km in depth, but only 1-3, up to five km. Most of the long-term structures in the UR built in 1931-37. were erected from non-graded concrete, often even without steel reinforcement.

              Armament 90% built DOT and DOS should be one, at least - two machine guns "Maxim". Only up to 10% of the firing points (more precisely, 9,3%) did the cannons of the design of General Durlyakhov arr. 1904 g. For 76-mm guns arr. 1900 and 1902, but the guns for 1 January 1939 was found only a third of the required quantity and they were withdrawn from long-term storage facilities and were mostly incomplete.

              And yes - here is the Pskov SD as of the beginning of 1939.
              Despite the long construction and retrofitting of the Pskov and Ostrovsky SDs, they cannot be considered combat ready at present. Due to the improperly designed and built internal equipment of the majority of bunkers, they cannot be occupied by troops ... up to half of the 20-40 cm structures are filled with water, which appeared due to an incorrect estimate of the depth of groundwater. At the same time, the water supply system does not work ... There is no electrical equipment in the fortified areas ... In the living quarters of the UR, high humidity and stale air ...
              (...)
              Due to illiterate planning of SD, their fire installations cannot fire at a distance of more than 50-100 m, so the terrain has hillocks, ravines and non-cut forests. DOS number 3, is installed on the slope of a ravine and cannot be masked due to permanent landslides, and the gun-half canopy in it is useless, as it is located below the level of the surrounding terrain ... To expand the shelling sectors, you need to remove about 120 cubic meters of land, and also cut down to 000 hectares of forests and bushes ...
              The bunker's bunks are designed for the use of Maxim machine guns, but they are equipped with machines of unknown design ... most likely designed for the Hotchkiss machine gun, which had been removed from service for a long time. Cannon polukaponiry are not equipped with armor valves and serve as a source of penetration into the bunker of melt water and precipitation ...
              The artillery armament of the UR consists of 6 obsolete 1877 field guns of the year, to which there are no projectiles ...
              © M.Svirin
            2. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 19 June 2020 09: 25
              0
              Quote: Nagan
              Yes, gone. Bypassing through the Ardennes and Belgium. They didn’t even try on the forehead.

              "Tiger" and "Bear". Plus a breakthrough through the second-line fortresses in the Ardennes direction.
              Quote: Nagan
              The Red Army also passed the Mannerheim Line, but - on the forehead, there was no Ardennes there to let the tanks bypass.

              There were. But the Red Army bypassing the Mannerheim Line north of Ladoga failed, while still managing to regularly get into boilers. Moreover, it failed largely because of her fault: at first the divisions passively watched the Finns divide them into motti boilers, and then heroically tried to overcome the consequences of their own headache.
              Quote: Nagan
              And in winter, in 40-degree frosts, when it’s not like the water in the radiators, the vodka in the jars froze.

              In 40-degree frosts nothing broke through. It was January 1940, when the Red Army was on the defensive and preparing for a normal offensive. At the first breakthrough, the air temperature was minus 2 degrees, at the second - minus 25 degrees.
              And yes, the "breakthrough of the Mannerheim Line" is two assaults of one UR, which had only a couple of modern machine-gun pillboxes (for the second assault, instead of one machine gun, the Bofors was installed) by the forces of a rifle division supported by a heavy tank brigade.
    2. Crane
      Crane 18 June 2020 09: 40
      0
      This is a plan of the West against the USSR: to blur Stalin’s eyes with a nonaggression pact, traitors in the spacecraft control allowed the old fortifications to be scrapped and deactivated without building and introducing new ones, and concentration of large concentrations of troops and depots near unarmed areas of defense.
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 18 June 2020 14: 52
        0
        Quote: Crane
        traitors in the spacecraft control allowed the destruction and deactivation of old fortifications without building and introducing new ones,

        Do you know the way to commission a bunker without weapons? Pillboxes Stalin's lines were disarmed for the early arming of new SDs - so as not to wait for supplies from industry, spread over 1941-1942.
        Quote: Crane
        concentration near the borders on non-echelon defense sectors of large concentrations of troops and depots.

        There were no large warehouses near the borders.
        The artillery depots of the border districts were dispersed along the front and layered in depth. The first line of warehouses located 50-75 km from the state border was advanced warehouses, usually small ones (4th category). On the second line, 300-400 km away from the state border, warehouses of 3-nd and partially of the 2nd category were located, and on the third (rear) line were the most powerful warehouses (of the 1st and 2nd categories). The total depth of the separation of the warehouses reached 500-600 km.
        © "Artillery Supply in the Great Patriotic War of 1941-45.", Moscow-Tula, GAU publishing house, 1977.
        It’s just that the Germans were advancing so quickly that they reached the rear warehouses before they could even theoretically be evacuated.
        1. Crane
          Crane 18 June 2020 14: 58
          -1
          The Germans' offensive was due to the betrayal of the highest CA superiors in the Western District - on a silver platter, it was suggested, i.e. without fuel, shells, batteries, sights on equipment and weapons, focusing on the heels of aviation and the order not to cause panic.
          1. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 18 June 2020 15: 43
            0
            Quote: Crane
            The Germans' offensive was due to the betrayal of the highest CA superiors in the Western District - on a silver platter, it was suggested, i.e. without fuel

            Army bosses do not command industry. And industry promises fuel tanks in 1942. In the meantime, store fuel in Maykop.
            To understand the scale of the shortage of everything and everything in the army: in the materials on the mechanized corps there was a cry from the soul of the commander of one of the divisions that they could knock out kitchen boilers from the district for half a year in order to establish centralized food for the soldiers - because they were not in the warehouses or in the supplies .
            Quote: Crane
            focusing on the heels of aviation

            And where else to concentrate it, if non-mobilized BAO can provide flights only from stationary aerodromes?
            In addition, three more were superimposed on this problem:
            - reform of the Air Force 1941-1942 with the retraining of old air units to new equipment and the formation of new ones (the number of air regiments doubled);
            - The reform of the rear of the Air Force in 1941 with the restructuring of the entire service system and rear support;
            - modernization of the airfield network, solemnly failed by the Air Force engineer in 1940 and transferred to the NKVD in 1941. As a result, the NKVD had to trample two years of work into one - because new planes and air units required new runways and new basing places.
        2. Revolver
          Revolver 18 June 2020 19: 11
          0
          Quote: Alexey RA
          Bunker Stalin's lines disarmed for the early arming of new UR

          Yes, but why bunker to blow up or pour concrete? Though they would give potatoes to local collective farms for storage, it would do less harm, and unload potatoes any faster than digging trenches.
          So there were, were at the very top of the Red Army those who worked not for Stalin, but for Hitler. And Pavlov was not in vain shot. In 1942, Khrushchev and Eremenko near Kharkov were dealt with no less in consequences than Pavlov in 1941, and they were not only not shot, not even demoted.
          1. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 18 June 2020 20: 00
            0
            Quote: Nagan
            Yes, but why bunker to blow up or pour concrete?

            Where was it?
            The Kiev UR "blown up" by Grigorovich fought for a long time in real life.
            Moreover, in April-May, NGOs and the Central Committee carried out an inspection of the old UR line. Conclusions. sure. disappointing - but completely refuting the "kill the line" theory:
            1. The planned measures for the completion and modernization of the fortifications of the old state border have not yet been carried out due to the need to complete construction work on the fortifications of the new state border by July 1, 1941, but will continue after the deadline ...

            That is, it was planned to strengthen the drugs - but they could not do it in parallel with the construction of the drugs.
            2. Manpower garrisons of the UD are currently not provided. The average number of garrison is currently not more than 30% of the full-time (actually - 13-20%) and cannot be increased due to lack of housing and logistics ...

            The "destroyed" line, it turns out, had garrisons - albeit a reduced size.
            3. Despite the fact that to strengthen the weapons of the UR in 1938-40. a large number of artillery weapons were placed at their disposal, most of them being outdated light field guns arr. 1877-1895 without special machines and ammunition. Of the relatively modern artillery weapons, only 26 76-mm guns were handed over to the SD garrisons. 1902 g. And 8 76-mm field guns arr. 1902 / 30 d. From the 200 L-17 caponier guns ordered were not received completely ...

            The "destroyed" line also received artillery. And with caponier guns - yes, there was a problem. LKZ disrupted the production of L-17, and they were not enough even for new structures.
            5. Tank battalions and tank companies of support for UR exist only in reports, as they have outdated hardware of the 1929-33 release. with a fully developed resource, they do not have machine-gun armaments and can only be limitedly used as fixed firing points. Fuel for tank mouths is nowhere to be found.

            They also handed over the tanks ...
            The last of the documents found to strengthen the armament of the fortifications of the old state border dates back to June 11, 1941. According to the document, the following was shipped to the Letichevsky UR from the warehouses of the Artillery Administration: Maxim machine guns on Sokolov's machine - 4 pcs .; machine guns "Vickers" on a tripod - 2 pcs; Colt heavy machine guns - 6 pcs; 37 mm Rosenberg battalion guns on an iron carriage - 4 pcs., 45 mm tank guns mod. 1932 without towers - 13 units; 45-mm fragmentation artillery rounds - 320; shrapnel artillery rounds of caliber 76,2 mm - 800; 7,62 mm rifle cartridges - 27.
            © M.Svirin
    3. Irbenwolf
      Irbenwolf 18 June 2020 09: 57
      +2
      Well, probably 400 kilometers from west to east (Latvia) with the mobility of those years - this is from 5-7 days of marching (without resistance). And these 5-7 days meant the almost unambiguous capture of Leningrad and the mass of troops of Army Group North hanging over Moscow with all the power, and not stiffened by countless battles on the defense line of Leningrad. Dubosekovo is in the east with a bias to the north. There were no troops there and if there hadn’t been a defense of Leningrad, the troops prepared for its release would have been impossible to send for the defense of Moscow (leaving GA Sever to marinate at the gates of the city on the Neva).

      Moscow is not just the capital, but the strongest logistics center in Russia.
  • Kapellan23
    Kapellan23 18 June 2020 09: 34
    -2
    In the north, we have the Baltic republics “in the form of a voluntary gift from Comrade Ribbentrop”.
  • Irbenwolf
    Irbenwolf 18 June 2020 09: 35
    +2
    Quote: Octopus
    Quote: ROSS 42
    industrialized countries were created from agrarian shtetl farms.

    In the 30s, the economies of the Baltic countries and Finland developed similarly, the Estonian grew even better. Now there is a slight difference with any Western European country.

    Let me remind you that the Finnish economy has been actively growing for the past 50 years due to the employment of Finnish workers who worked at wages thanks to ... orders of the Soviet Union that were massively placed at Finnish factories (in the 50s due to damage from Finnish actions during the Second World War).
  • ee2100
    ee2100 18 June 2020 10: 44
    +3
    The author has another agitation. In the prewar time, everything was much more complicated, as they try to tell us. No one doubts that the West decided to sacrifice the Baltic States in favor of the USSR. England specifically the Baltic countries made it clear where they need to move, about Germany and say no. In short, they leaked and presenting claims only to Russia now is not entirely correct.
    In 2002, secret reports of the intelligence resident in Tallinn were published. He answered the question "how the population of Estonia will react to joining the USSR." Specifically, it was said that part of the population of the cities (Tallinn, Pärnu and Tartu) would be categorically against, and the rest, mainly the rural population, would be in favor. And the answer is very simple. After 1918, a land reform was carried out in Estonia and the peasants were given land, before that it was the land of German landowners. And everyone understood that if the Germans came, the land would be taken away, and then, when joining the USSR, at least some chance.
    The topic is complex, but beneficial for politicians on both sides.
  • Cowbra
    Cowbra 18 June 2020 11: 45
    0
    In turn, the Baltic countries promised assistance to the USSR if it was attacked through their territory or from the Baltic direction. The agreements contained obligations not to enter into any alliances and not to participate in coalitions directed against one of the parties to the agreement.

  • Aitvaras
    Aitvaras 18 June 2020 11: 58
    +1
    SW The author is mistaken. In 1920, there was an agreement between Lithuania and Soviet Russia on friendship, cooperation and borders. Lithuania's sovereignty and independence are recognized, it states that Vilnius is the capital of Lithuania. In support of Lithuania, Russia paid a significant amount in gold rubles, which became the main for Lithuanian litas. V1923-27 years. actively supported Lithuania in the Klaipeda issue and recognized Klapeda for Lithuania. In all conflicts in Vilnius, Lithuania and Poland always spoke on the side of Lithuania, right up to the military ultimatum of Poland. In those years, we had active economic cooperation and friendly relations. Lithuania declared neutrality in 1938. It refused to participate with Germany in an attack on Poland in order to return its Vilnius. From the USSR in 1939 there was an agreement on military cooperation and an alliance against fascist Germany. General maneuvers were carried out with contingent of the Red Army in Lithuania, created military plans to counter the Nazis. The statement of uv. The author of the betrayal of Lithuania and the desire to escape under the rule of Germany does not hold water, as the author himself claims that almost all German troops were in France in 1940. In Lithuania since 1939 there were troops of the USSR and we had more of them than the entire Lithuanian army. Nearby, in Belarus was approx. 1 . million In 1940, the Red Army of the Red Army. The USSR in XNUMX violated the treaty with Lithuania, in which he undertook not to intervene in Lithuania’s domestic policy. There was an ultimatum and immediately, the next day, the Red Army troops entered Lithuania. politicians, public figures, state. civil servants, senior army officers and others .
    1. Darkesstcat
      Darkesstcat 18 June 2020 14: 30
      0
      And the reason for such a tough policy change? A desire to push the boundaries of the German invasion, or was there something else?
  • Irbenwolf
    Irbenwolf 19 June 2020 12: 42
    +1
    Quote: Octopus
    The average 800 euros on hand without oil. Minimum 430. Poor Latvians.

    Have you lived in Latvia? With a gasp about these figures, only a person who has not lived in the realities of modern Latvia can speak.
  • trahterist
    trahterist 19 June 2020 14: 23
    -1
    Quote: Octopus
    Quote: Deck
    Like cheeses in butter skated.

    The other day, Riekstins, the ambassador of Latvia to the Russian Federation, posted a small help on one enemy’s website. Of the 7 pre-war ambassadors of Latvia to the USSR, 3 were shot, 2 died in a Soviet prison, 2 managed to escape to the West.

    Thanks to the native Soviet government, of course.

    It is advisable to publish their criminal cases.
    And then we know these multimillion-dollar "innocently repressed", wherever dig-stigma in the gun.
  • trahterist
    trahterist 19 June 2020 14: 26
    0
    Quote: Octopus
    Quote: ROSS 42
    industrialized countries were created from agrarian shtetl farms.

    In the 30s, the economies of the Baltic countries and Finland developed similarly, the Estonian grew even better. Now there is a slight difference with any Western European country.

    Only Finland produces a lot of SAMA, and is a completely independent state, besides, since Soviet times, it gets along well both with the West, and with the USSR / RF cooperates well (google shipbuilding of the USSR).
    The Baltic states have sold everything and everyone, and its "economy" is the service sector.
    Awesome development, cho.
  • trahterist
    trahterist 19 June 2020 14: 35
    +1
    Quote: IrbenWolf
    Quote: Octopus
    The average 800 euros on hand without oil. Minimum 430. Poor Latvians.

    Have you lived in Latvia? With a gasp about these figures, only a person who has not lived in the realities of modern Latvia can speak.

    I lived.
    Now somewhere around 700-800 is average.
    For Latvia, it’s for chickens to laugh, barely make ends meet.
    With such a pay, an ordinary resident can forget about a personal car IMMEDIATELY, unless you smuggle contraband from the Russian Federation (vodka, sugar, cigarettes, fuel and other nishtyaki).
    I'm not talking about the maintenance of the family.
    Spin on hackies after the main work?
    Sorry, but this is not Europe then, but some kind of Euro-dupa.
    In general, couch experts are astounding that they measure the standard of living by sphere vacuum salaries, and not by a much more objective indicator of purchasing power.
    If I have at least 10 Jews, what’s the point, if 000/2 of them go to a communal apartment, the rest is for food ??
  • Dmitry10SPb
    Dmitry10SPb 20 June 2020 16: 05
    0
    What a beauty. The text is just like the 60s. In Krylov's style "You are to blame for the fact that I want to eat." It's sad how it happened.
  • nnz226
    nnz226 17 August 2020 21: 51
    0
    In the USSR, the Baltic republics were the "western face of the country," and in the EU, sprat limitrophes became the "eastern ass of Europe" !!!