Military Review

Armor History Land of the Rising Sun

281
Armor History Land of the Rising Sun

Removing an arrow from the eye of a wounded samurai. Fig. Angus McBride


Among the flowers - cherry, among people - a samurai.
Japanese saying


Armor and weapon samurai of japan. A few years ago, the theme of Japanese weapons and armor sounded quite noticeably on VO. Many then read about them and had the opportunity to express their opinions. But time goes on, more and more readers appear, and the old ones have forgotten a lot, so I thought: why don't we return to this topic again? Moreover, the illustrations will now be completely different. Which is not surprising, because a lot of Japanese armor has survived.

So, today we will again admire these truly amazing creations of human hands and fantasies, while forgetting for a while that all this served the purpose of killing one person by another. And it is clear that the killer himself did not want to be killed at all, and therefore hid his body under armor that had been improving from century to century. Here we are today and get acquainted with how this process took place in Japan. Well, as illustrations illustrating the text, photographs from the Tokyo National Museum will be used.

And to begin with, we recall what the armor of the Japanese samurai always attracted us and attract. First of all, brightness and colorfulness, and, of course, by the fact that they are not like everyone else. Although the totality of their combat properties, they practically do not differ from the more prosaic-looking armor of Western Europe. On the other hand, they are primarily because they are ideally adapted precisely to the habitat in which the samurai dressed in them fought with each other on their alien islands.

Ancient warriors of the Yayoi era (XNUMXrd century BC - XNUMXrd century AD)


Japan has always been the edge of the earth, where people, if they moved, are most likely only in case of emergency. Probably, at the same time they thought that nobody would get them there! However, as soon as they entered land, they immediately had to enter the war with the natives. However, they were usually allowed to defeat local residents by a higher level of development of military affairs. So in the period between the III century. BC. and II c. AD another group of immigrants from the Asian continent brought with them two innovations that were very important: the skills of processing iron and the custom of burying their dead in huge mounds (kofun) and putting utensils, jewelry, and also weapons and armor with the bodies of the dead.


A khaniva figurine depicting a warrior in keiko armor. Discovered in Gunma Prefecture, Ota City. Dated to the VI century. The era of Kofun. Height 130,5 cm. It is a national treasure of Japan.


Rear view

And they sculpted from clay and burned figures of a khaniv - a kind of ushebti of the ancient Egyptians. Only now the Uhebti had to work for the deceased at the call of the gods, while the Khanites were the guards of their reassurance. They were buried around the burial grounds, and since they usually depicted not just anyone, but armed soldiers, it was not difficult for archaeologists to compare these figures and the remains of weapons and armor found in these mounds.


The same figure close-up. The smallest details of weapons are clearly visible

We managed to find out that in the era called Yayoi, Japanese warriors wore wooden or leather armor, which had the appearance of cuirasses on straps. In the cold, warriors wore bearskin jackets sewn with fur to the outside. In the summer they wore a cuirass with a sleeveless shirt, and, well, the pants were pulled below the knees. The rear part of the cuirass made of wood for some reason stood above the shoulder level, while the cuirass made of leather was supplemented with shoulder straps made of leather stripes or they had an overlap on the shoulders. Warriors used shields from te-date boards, which had a umbon in the form of a solar disk with rays diverging from it in a spiral. Nowhere else has this happened. What this meant is unknown.


Helmet with the Cheeks. Apparently, the master who sculpted the figure was better versed in armor than in the anatomy of the human face


The same helmet. Side view

Judging by the design, the helmet was assembled from four segments with rivets with reinforcement in the form of a patch plate. The head was leather and reinforced with plates. Cheeks are also leather, but are reinforced with thick leather straps on the outside.

Warriors of the Yayoi era were armed with hoko spears, straight tekuto swords, bows and klevtsy obviously borrowed in China - halberds with handles of different lengths. The soldiers should be called into battle and encouraged by the sound of a bronze bell, the ringing of which should also frighten away evil spirits. Iron was already known, but up to the IV century. AD many weapons were still made of bronze.


Chokuto sword


Chinese halberd blade


Battle bell


The bronze tip of the spear of the Yayoi era. Length 82,2 cm

Warriors of the Yamato era (III century AD - 710) and the Heian era (794-1185)


At the end of IV - beginning of V century in stories Another landmark event occurred in Japan: horses were brought to the islands. And not only horses ... In China, there was already cavalry from riders in heavy weapons, using a high saddle and stirrups. Now the preponderance of immigrants over Aborigines has become decisive. In addition to the infantry, cavalry also fought with them, which allowed the aliens from the mainland to successfully push the locals farther and farther north.


Horse haniva with saddle and stirrups

But the specifics of the war here was such that, for example, already in the XNUMXth century, Japanese soldiers abandoned their shields, but the horse harness that appeared in the burials tells us that there were more and more riders! Moreover, it was at this time that the main weapon of the Japanese rider became instead of a spear and a sword a large bow of an asymmetric shape (one “shoulder” is longer than the other) - yumi. However, they also had a sword: a direct chopping, sharpened, on one side like a saber.


The first stirrups that came to Japan were not much different from what archaeologists find in China.


But then they took the form of a closed toe!


And finally, they turned into such absolutely unimaginable for the European stirrup-boats!

Chinese records dating back to 600 report that their arrows had tips made of iron and bone, that their crossbows were similar to Chinese, swords straight, and spears long and short, but armor made of leather.


Arrowheads, approx. 600 g


Schematic illustration of armor of a tanko or mizika-yoroy and a shokaku helmet with a protruding "beak"


Warrior in armor tanko. Modern drawing by Sujim Sue

It is interesting that the Japanese already began to cover them with their famous varnish from lacquer tree juice, which is understandable, because Japan is a country with a very humid climate, so the use of varnish for the purpose of protection against moisture was dictated by the need. The armor of persons of high rank was also covered with gilding, so that it would immediately be clear who is who!


Tank Armor Breastplate


Armor tanko. Shokaku-tsuki-kabuto helmet (“butting ram”), cuirass-do, and akabe-yoroy plate collar details


Shokaku-tsuki-kabuto helmet

But no one has ever called the samurai of the soldiers of that time! Although they have already found a word, and even much more elevated than a samurai, - bushi, which can be translated into Russian as “fighter”, “warrior”, “combatant”. That is, the professional nature of their occupation was emphasized in this way, and since the war does not endure inconvenience, the protective equipment of the bushi was constantly being improved constantly. For foot soldiers, armor was made of iron strips called tanko (IV - VIII centuries), and more convenient for rider armor keiko (V - VIII centuries), which looked like a plate cuirass with a skirt up to the middle of the warrior's thigh. The long and curved inward plates formed the waist of the armor, which, apparently, was also belted here. Well, on the warrior’s body, keiko was held with wide shoulder straps (gangs) of cotton fabric, which on top also covered the collar and shoulders. Hands from the hands to the elbows covered the bracers of narrow longitudinal metal plates connected by cords. The rider’s legs below the knees were also protected by armor plates and the same gaiters, covering his hips and knees. Such armor together with a wide "skirt" looked very much like ... a modern pea coat, and were pulled by a belt at the waist. Shoulders made up a collar with the collar, so that the warrior himself could put on all this without resorting to the help of servants.


Schematic illustration of keiko armor


Keiko armor helmet - mabizashi-tsuki-kabuto. A feature of such helmets was a visor perforated with patterns and a cup for plume on the crown

In the VIII century, another variant of keiko appeared, consisting of four sections: the front and rear sections were connected by shoulder straps, while the two side sections should be worn separately. Apparently, all these tricks had one goal in front of them - to provide maximum convenience, as well as maximum protection, to the soldiers who fired from the horse with a bow!

Warriors of the Kamakura era (1185-1333 gg.)


In the Heian era, there was an unprecedented drop in imperial power and ... the victory of the Bushi estate. The first shogunate was created in Japan, and all the beads were divided into two classes: the gokenin and the hokenin. The former were directly subordinate to the shogun and were elite; the second - became mercenaries who served anyone who paid them. The owners of large estates recruited them as armed servants, and so they became samurai, that is, Japanese "serving" people. Indeed, the term “samurai” itself is a derivative of the verb “saburau” (“to serve”). All warriors ceased to be farmers, and peasants turned into ordinary serfs. Although not quite ordinary. From each village a certain number of peasants were allocated to soldiers as servants or as spear-bearing soldiers. And these people, who were called asigaru (lit. "light-footed"), although they did not become equal to the samurai, still got the opportunity with the help of personal courage to get upstairs. That is, in Japan everything was the same as in England, where the word knight (knight) also came from the Old Norse terms “servant” and “serve”. That is, initially the samurai were precisely the servants of large feudal lords. They had to protect their estates and property, as well as themselves, and it is clear that they were devoted to their master, went to war with him, and also carried out his various assignments.


Kusari-Tati Sword, Heian, 104,0th Century Decorated with pearls and gold lining. The handle is covered in shark skin. Length XNUMX cm. Has the status of a national treasure of Japan


The sword, known as Yesugi-tachi, Kamakura period, XIII century. Decorated in the style of hyogo-gusari-tachi. Hyogo-kusari copper wire pendants. Length 105,4 cm. Has the status of a national treasure of Japan


Blade of this sword

The armor that people of the military class now wore (or, in any case, sought to wear) during the Heian period were made exclusively from plates with punched holes for the cords. The cords were made of leather and silk. Well, the plates were quite large: 5-7 cm tall and 4 cm wide. They could be iron or leather. In any case, they were varnished to protect them from moisture. Each disc, called kozane, was supposed to half cover the one on its right. Each row ended with another half of the plate for its greater strength. The armor was multi-layered and therefore very durable.


Heian era plates. It is clearly seen that they were made of metal, primed and then covered with black varnish. Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York


And so they overlapped one another

But he also had a serious drawback: even the most durable cords stretched over time, the plates diverged among themselves and began to sag. To prevent this from happening, gunsmiths began using three types of plates of different sizes: with three, two and one row of holes, which were then superimposed on one another and connected in an exceptionally rigid structure. The stiffness of such armor increased, the protective qualities became even higher, but the weight also increased, so such plates began to be made of leather more often.


Hashi Kabuto Helmet Tulia with distinctive riveted protruding heads


The same helmet, reconstructed

In the XIII century, new records appeared, which began to be called yёzane, they were wider than kozane. Horizontal strips began to be assembled from them, and then connected by vertical lacing of the kebiki-odoshi. At the same time, a special cord (mimi-ito), which differed in color from the color of the main lacing, braided the edges of the armor, and such a cord was usually thicker and stronger than all other cords.


The aka-ito-odoshi armor is the o-yo period of Heian, with plates fastened with a red (aka) cord (odoshi). It does not look too old, since during the Meiji period this equipment was restored. Pay attention to the asymmetric chest plates of sandan-no-ita and kyubi-no-ita, which cover the armpits. They were later abandoned

Well, the rider’s armor, o-yoy, became the main type of armor already in the Heian era: durable, resembling a box and arranged in such a way that its front armor plate rested its lower edge on the bow of the saddle, which reduced the load on the shoulders of the warrior. The total weight of this armor was 27-28 kg. It was a typical horseman "armor", the main task of which was to protect its owner from arrows.

Literature

1. Kure M. Samurai. Illustrated story. M .: AST / Astrel, 2007.
2. Turnbull S. Military History of Japan. M .: Eksmo, 2013.
3. Shpakovsky V. Atlas of samurai. M .: "Rosman-Press", 2005.
4. Bryant E. Samurai. M .: AST / Astrel, 2005.

To be continued ...
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  1. Hunter 2
    Hunter 2 23 June 2020 05: 37 New
    11
    Excellent Article, Vyacheslav Olegovich - Huge Respect! If the weapons of Japan had certain knowledge, then about the Armor - Absolutely nothing! I look forward to continuing ...
    1. kalibr
      23 June 2020 07: 26 New
      12
      Dear Alexey! There will be a cycle where everything will go, down to the stirrups ...
      1. swetlana1
        swetlana1 23 June 2020 11: 03 New
        +2
        We will very much expect
  2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 23 June 2020 05: 44 New
    +8
    Vyacheslav Olegovich thanks!
    Still, Japanese armor is quite distinctive, even at the beginning of its history. With fiction, the Japanese comrades, this cannot be taken away!
    1. Revolver
      Revolver 23 June 2020 23: 10 New
      +2
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      With fiction, the Japanese comrades, this cannot be taken away!

      Well, why were you? They are there now, and in the ability to invent, and most importantly, do invented things, they will not refuse.
  3. Cowbra
    Cowbra 23 June 2020 06: 08 New
    +8
    Add that all this "samurai culture" they ripped off from the Ainu, up to bushi-do winked And I would also add that all this peacock coloring crumbled with a bang about the meeting with the Portuguese rapiers, and at the same time remember the fierce and wild story about the "excellent" quality of steel in katanas. Guys. Iron - no, just not. The nail will be a treasure, you really believe about rusting in tens of years, so that it remains so. worthy of a katana? (with) Madhouse - in-he is there
    1. Free wind
      Free wind 23 June 2020 07: 02 New
      +4
      So Yapy with Korea had contacts. and probably traded or fought. Rather, they bought iron there, or seized it. They also did not catch horses with cows from the Mariana Trench, as well as from Korea. In Korea, iron is not small, but in Japan there is coal. Of course, the iron was of disgusting quality. Especially when the Yapis introduced complete isolation from the world. Well, the truth is, they practiced hardening swords in the body of prisoners - brave warriors, well, like the spirit of a warrior turns into a weapon. But it seems to me more likely to hurt the sword. You will not find a sumoist, and the rest are bony, the sword will be bent between the words.
      1. Cowbra
        Cowbra 23 June 2020 07: 09 New
        +4
        From the report of the incident in the location of hundreds of Cossack centurion Pereslegin.

        “On the third day, a hundred stood in the second line of security, which made it possible to cook food and make fires. At XNUMX o'clock in the afternoon, a strange Japanese man came out of the bushes to the fires to guard the guard. All in black, twitched and hissed. , why died in speed "
    2. deddem
      deddem 23 June 2020 09: 30 New
      +2
      Duc, the pseudobulat of the katan was an attempt to make more or less acceptable something out of a complete guano.

      The steppes of the east in this regard were much simpler: there is the Silk Road, international arms trade has existed there since the Neolithic.
      Those. for money, you can buy anything (or take it away), from illegal export of carolings to expensive margian steel.
    3. Engineer
      Engineer 23 June 2020 11: 25 New
      +5
      At one time there was a myth about the incredible quality of katanas. Now he has been replaced by a counter-myth about disgusting Japanese iron. But still a myth. Katanas and Tatis are quite good from a technical point of view.
      1. Cowbra
        Cowbra 23 June 2020 12: 34 New
        -2
        They have the only plus - the balance. Iron - full G. And the balance - a kind of axial)
        1. Engineer
          Engineer 23 June 2020 12: 47 New
          +7
          To confirm this, a comparative spectral analysis of synchronous Japanese and European blades is needed.
          It is generally accepted that in Japanese steel there is a lot of sulfur and phosphorus, but they could not be too much otherwise it would simply not be forged.
          The balance of the katana is not a merit - it has a typical "saber" balance - 1/3 of the handle.
          Katana, by virtue of its curved shape, oddly enough excellently pricks, penetrating ability is better than that of a sesquioxide. It is on YouTube
          Katana has an excellent hardness of cutting edge up to 62 according to Rockwell. This is the hardness of steel cutters
          Katana has a viscous butt to absorb shock.
          These two factors neutralize heavily harmful impurities in the metal.
          A katana tsuba is bad in terms of hand protection.
          1. Cowbra
            Cowbra 23 June 2020 13: 25 New
            +1
            In order to confirm this - there is a fact that these supercatans broke when meeting with Portuguese rapiers. and if you are not in the courses - a direct block, blade to blade - in ken-jutsu, sword fighting - is not prohibited. but close. A checker a direct block will withstand - and not 10 times. ken - and from one can break. Parry is just rolling!
            I recommend by the way the movie 7 samurai watch - thoughtfully)
            1. Engineer
              Engineer 23 June 2020 13: 42 New
              +5
              In order to confirm this - there is a fact that these supercatans broke when meeting with Portuguese rapiers.

              There are Internet bikes, overgrown with new details. Everything goes back to the 1580 clash in the Philippines. Only there were Spaniards from the opposite side.
              Rapiers were not military weapons. These are status weapons and weapons of self-defense.
              Ken-jutsu is a special discipline and is not a reconstruction of medieval fencing technique.
              The quality of Japanese swords has sunk very much since the second half of the 16th century when they were made in large quantities at a time. Likewise, the bulk of the European New Age blades sucked.
              To cite as an example modern checkers is generally no way. It is necessary to compare synchronous samples of the Middle Ages and modern times.
              1. The comment was deleted.
                1. Engineer
                  Engineer 23 June 2020 14: 00 New
                  +4
                  I just read a little on the topic and don’t wave my saber laughing
                  1. The comment was deleted.
                    1. Engineer
                      Engineer 23 June 2020 14: 20 New
                      +5
                      I do not draw special knowledge from fiction. All the more far from presenting this "knowledge" with aplomb.
                      Anyone who is interested in military history is useful to understand how rapiers, swords and later swords were related.
                      According to the Japanese there is Bazhenov, Nosov
                      Planned Reading The Connoisseur's Book of Japanese Swords
                      If you believe the readers, it proves, among other things, that the Japanese swords from imported European steel and local in quality were about the same.
                      1. The comment was deleted.
                      2. The comment was deleted.
                    2. Hantengri
                      Hantengri 23 June 2020 15: 59 New
                      +3
                      Quote: Cowbra

                      But what was Stevenson a noble weapon weapon?
                      Well then, read The Owner of Ballantre. Robert Louis Stevenson. And read what it says about the rapier - what did you say?

                      Denis said everything correctly about the rapier. Rapier - from the Spanish espada ropera - costume sword. Those. this is a "knife" that was worn with a civilian dress, just in case, suddenly, evil people, they want to kill you in the middle of the street ...
                      1. Cowbra
                        Cowbra 23 June 2020 18: 08 New
                        0
                        A lightweight version of the rapier is a toothpick. Or a sword, and this word together with an espat - from one root
                      2. The comment was deleted.
                      3. The comment was deleted.
                      4. Engineer
                        Engineer 23 June 2020 20: 31 New
                        +4
                        Have you decided to determine the concentration limit of lulz? : laughing
                        The man waved his sword for half an hour and secret knowledge was revealed to him. Can you stand it ?? wink
                      5. Hantengri
                        Hantengri 23 June 2020 22: 04 New
                        +3
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Have you decided to determine the concentration limit of lulz? :

                        I just wondered if people understand what a rapier is in its development ... And then, all of a sudden, are we talking about different things? laughing
                    3. Cowbra
                      Cowbra 23 June 2020 20: 34 New
                      0
                      Well, probably the current one? Or if you look up, the conversation was for those rapiers with which the "white barbarians" got caught up in Japan, and something suddenly came to light. that wooden armor and these two brothers do not play against rapiers and armor
                    4. Hantengri
                      Hantengri 24 June 2020 00: 10 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Cowbra
                      Well, probably the current one? Or if you look up, the conversation was for those rapiers with which the "white barbarians" got caught up in Japan,

                      So what were these "rapiers" in 1582, considering that in the middle of the 600th century. "sword for a suit" began with a "sharpening" wedge-shaped, with a double-edged blade, a blade length of 700 - 50 mm and a width of 80 - XNUMX mm at the guard, and gradually came to that "skewer", which we now, under this name, know ?
                    5. Cowbra
                      Cowbra 24 June 2020 00: 22 New
                      0
                      I repeat once again. you understand the difference between that. that dragged along in Paris, and military rapier. If you are a Muscovite - I recommend at least getting to the Danilov Monastery near Paveletskaya. You will see how battle rapiers looked in the 17th century, for example, without a trihedral. Although he always stumbled against 800-900 grams of checkers - they started from a kilo and a half.
                2. Cowbra
                  Cowbra 23 June 2020 20: 36 New
                  0
                  Although I personally agree with the phrase - in the west they did not know how to make weapons. The upper dance for them is flattened crowbar, they call it a sword.
                  Just like Indian damask steel. well, for example. Sabers. Scimitar?
                3. Icelord
                  Icelord 24 June 2020 13: 34 New
                  0
                  So no, the Europeans did better, but you probably don’t like books, and the cheapened undersaber checker is probably just right for your fencing
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 23 June 2020 17: 27 New
    +3
    Tsuba katana - protection of the fencer's fingers from the katana itself.
    1. Engineer
      Engineer 23 June 2020 20: 33 New
      +3
      Sure, but it would also be nice to defend ourselves from enemy blades
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 23 June 2020 20: 45 New
        +3
        There is a different style of fencing. I argued a lot about this a year ago. As a result, they convinced me that the tsuba was not a guard.
        Denis, my respect! For the hilt of Japanese swords, I recommend contacting VikNik. Anyway, on the subject of Japanese culture ....
        Get great pleasure from communication!
        1. Engineer
          Engineer 23 June 2020 20: 48 New
          +3
          Tsuba is not unambiguous.
          It’s just that if you encounter an enemy armed not with a katana / tati, you will feel at least uncomfortable
          Undecim seemed to be fed up with the resource)))
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 23 June 2020 20: 58 New
            +3
            Undecim seemed fed up with the resource
            Viktor Nikolaevich has long been disappointed in the resource. But he leaves no hope of finding worthy interlocutors on this site. I'm afraid Denis, you are among the candidates! laughing
            1. Engineer
              Engineer 23 June 2020 21: 12 New
              +3
              You see, we often see 'Undecim' as a carrier of knowledge and information.
              But the Undecim opinion carrier is a rare guest. Therefore, we rarely intersect in the comments.
              Mikhail or Octopus, for example, is primarily an opinion, often polemical. So we will have a cabin))
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 23 June 2020 21: 22 New
                +4
                Do you like the "battle" ?! VikNik will easily arrange it. Why does he have this nickname? He was banned ten times.
              2. Engineer
                Engineer 23 June 2020 21: 26 New
                +3
                Is the Russian-Ukrainian Internet discourse to blame?
              3. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 23 June 2020 21: 31 New
                +2
                Is the Russian-Ukrainian Internet discourse to blame?
                Including. Moreover, the Russofashist blame from the site.
              4. Engineer
                Engineer 23 June 2020 21: 37 New
                +3
                I read a couple of times IN the hot summer of 2014. I could not even imagine such an amount of inadequacy. I do not understand why now they say that the site is "not the same". Everything is better than it was
              5. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 23 June 2020 21: 57 New
                +3
                I read a couple of times IN the hot summer of 2014. I could not even imagine such an amount of inadequacy. I do not understand why now they say that the site is "not the same". Everything is better than it was
                To quote the famous anecdote: "3,14 gifts, sir!"
                In the summer of 2014, I was interested in my love and Catalonia. What is remarkable, the love for "love" is gone, but the love for Catalonia remains ....
              6. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 23 June 2020 23: 41 New
                +3
                I did not even imagine such an amount of inadequacy.

                Denis, I’ll join Anton. Also sat down on the site. There is nothing to read. Well, today I pulled myself a little! drinks
                To be honest, for the last two weeks I don't even want to go in ... If you make Kharaluzhnykh and others "historians" - write it up ... Enough of the super ethnos! As if like a dubious public not enough "opinions" and "analytics" with an emotional forum, inadequate, clicks and views ... (with respect to the administration!hi)
  • Cowbra
    Cowbra 23 June 2020 20: 46 New
    0
    Quote: 3x3zsave
    Tsuba katana - protection of the fencer's fingers from the katana itself.

    These seppuku lovers in the original phrase thinner
  • ecolog
    ecolog 26 June 2020 01: 21 New
    0
    Well, they ripped it off and tore it off, the main thing is that it was not the Ainu who won in the end. The Romans also borrowed a lot from their many "Ainu". And the armor - which may be mayhem - was enough for internal squabbles, and guests rarely visited. It is clear that the Portuguese have gone far - few can compare with the European experience of cutting each other.
  • Van 16
    Van 16 23 June 2020 06: 12 New
    +5
    Thank you, as always - interesting, informative, but .. somehow short, the continuation must be necessary, we are waiting!
    1. kalibr
      23 June 2020 07: 28 New
      +7
      Of course, this is only the beginning ...
      1. Cowbra
        Cowbra 23 June 2020 07: 53 New
        +1
        Yes there is a lot of tasty)
        1. kalibr
          23 June 2020 08: 00 New
          +5
          There are primarily museums: Tokyo National Museum, Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York, Stibbert Museum, Hirado Museum, Los Angeles County Museum, Royal Arsenal in the Tower and Leeds. And each has something of its own, interesting and illustrative. Even in my Penza museum of local lore there is a cuirass ... I’m thinking how to get it ... In the Alabiev Museum in Samara there is a gorgeous ceremonial sword tati. And after all, at one time he held in his hands ... photographed, on film. But time has passed and youoki film. And there was a fotik ... And now how could I shoot it. But go to Samara for the sword? Alas! And the museum workers themselves will not be able to remove it correctly. Already tried, asked, they did. I thanked, but it was "not that".
          1. Cowbra
            Cowbra 23 June 2020 08: 12 New
            +6
            Quote: kalibr
            And in due time he held in his hands ...

            You know, I’m from a Cossack village) Well, these tati and naginati - I mean NOT replicas - I held in my hands. honestly - complete G.

            Well, damn it, here I have a fracture on my right leg, because it’s a slab, you see one of the main blows, the teapot opposite is an artist from Schukinsky. Therefore, the leg is not the one forward) Saber - chanting Zlatoust. someone hung a hilt on her, but she was not lost. balance - in the hand like a table knife. I twisted butterflies to her all the way in front of Shakhnazarov, well, about 30 minutes for sure. And when he took it, it’s a mosfilm, they are blunt, but the checker - count the ax, she doesn’t need a spear, so he showed the gunsmith. what is a checker. albeit with a guard - clap - and minus a birch of centimeters so 5 in diameter at Mosfilm - this is a cleaver. brother, ax)
            1. kalibr
              23 June 2020 08: 42 New
              +5
              Great! +++++++++++++++++++++++++++
              1. Cowbra
                Cowbra 23 June 2020 11: 26 New
                +2
                I’ll catch up with the story. Well, just like that, consider a bike. Well shooting, well Mosfilm. The people have gotten crazy - but not whether to plump? Two clowns. one dressed as a guardsman (not I. not walking wink ), the second in the outfit of the city - a white tunic. a harness, on it a gun and a saber ... Through the fence - and on Mosfilmovskaya street ...
                - Where do you know the boutiques?
                - Yes, I have never been here.
                These two go up to the guard, well, there was a clown there. They were photographed with a cop together - just imagine. Gray garbage from the load ... Nearby in a dazzling white uniform is a policeman, who has a guardsman with a moss behind his back ... And the phrase ... "Hmm, dear ... And where is the nearest tavern here?"
                Rubbish almost swallowed my tongue with fright, and the whole street applauded to these guys
          2. Mihaylov
            Mihaylov 23 June 2020 10: 37 New
            +9
            Even in my Penza museum of local lore there is a cuirass ...

            In the local history museum of Toropets, there is Japanese armor in the middle of spinning wheels and samovars. At first he wondered where he came from, but it turned out from the estate of the very Kuropatkin who brought him from Japan.
            1. kalibr
              23 June 2020 10: 40 New
              +4
              You told me that well ...
            2. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 23 June 2020 11: 19 New
              +6
              At first he wondered where he came from, but it turned out from the estate of the very Kuropatkin who brought him from Japan.

              Hello, hello! drinks And here are the trophies of the Russo-Japanese War from the Artillery Museum!
              Japanese sabers, on the left - a frontal army officer saber, model 1886, on the right - a cavalry soldier saber (type 32), model 1899. Both were made at the beginning of the XNUMXth century. soldier My photo, December 2017. drinks
              1. Mihaylov
                Mihaylov 23 June 2020 11: 35 New
                +6
                Quote: Pane Kohanku
                Japanese sabers, on the left - a frontal army officer saber, model 1886, on the right - a cavalry soldier saber (type 32), model 1899. Both were made at the beginning of the XNUMXth century.

                Good afternoon, Nicholas, not strong in Japanese weapons, but as I understand it, European sabers were already taken as samples, the left one is very similar to the French one, the right one also resembles something ...
                1. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku 23 June 2020 11: 43 New
                  +3
                  the left one is very similar to the French one, the right one also resembles something ...

                  And I'm not good at European weapons! request Here is a comparison of revolvers from the same war. On the left - our "revolver", on the right - a Japanese revolver "Ifino", caliber 6,5 mm (!), Model 1900. Apparently, a breaking design, and made on the basis of some kind of English model? drinks

                  below, under them - pouches.
                  1. kalibr
                    23 June 2020 12: 35 New
                    +4
                    Japanese revolver "Hino" based on Vebley and the caliber of the army was 9 mm!
                    1. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 23 June 2020 12: 59 New
                      +2
                      Japanese revolver "Hino" based on Vebley and the caliber of the army was 9 mm!

                      Vyacheslav Olegovich, I used this plate under the exhibits. The desired sample under No. 11. hi

                      Perhaps, museum workers made a technical error when decorating the stand, and entered a caliber similar to the Arisak rifle - 6,5 mm ... hi
                      1. kalibr
                        23 June 2020 13: 38 New
                        +1
                        I understand where it comes from. But you look at their revolver and our Nagant ... sizes.
                      2. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 23 June 2020 13: 40 New
                        +1
                        I understand where it comes from. But you look at their revolver and our Nagant ... sizes.

                        Duck, I see! drinks Japanese and looks a little more impressive. But, for what I bought according to the tablet - for that I sold it! That is, if a typo is a typo! request
                    2. Undecim
                      Undecim 23 June 2020 13: 45 New
                      +5
                      This is a Japanese Type 26 revolver. The Japanese 9 × 22 mm R cartridge in the photo on the right.

                      The revolver was never called "hino" or "ifino"; this is already the work of an unknown author.
                      Vebley has nothing to do with him. Borrowing from three designs - Galand, Smith & Wesson, Model 1892 revolver.
                    3. kalibr
                      23 June 2020 13: 50 New
                      +2
                      Type 26 or Model 26 is bezurukovy (二十 六年 式 拳 銃 Nijuuroku-nen-shiki kenjuu) (In Russian literature it is sometimes mistakenly referred to as Hino revolver)
                    4. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 23 June 2020 13: 50 New
                      +2
                      The revolver was never called "hino" or "ifino"; this is already the work of an unknown author.

                      and in caliber, too, a typo on the stand? hi
                    5. Undecim
                      Undecim 23 June 2020 13: 50 New
                      +3
                      Yes, a typo.
                    6. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 23 June 2020 13: 54 New
                      +4
                      Yes, a typo.

                      that is, the three of us revealed an inaccuracy not somewhere else, but in the exposition of the Central Museum of Artillery, engineering troops and communications troops? hi I also equate myself with the researchers! wink then it’s not in vain that I took those photos! drinks I feel like Socrates! He also liked to confuse experts, and then, with joint reasoning, come to a common denominator. laughing
                    7. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 23 June 2020 17: 50 New
                      +2
                      Ha, Nikolay, do you remember the "museum lady" in Pavlovsk rubbed us in that there are only three colors of marble? At that moment I wanted to scream obscenities.
                      Here, a direct analogy.
                    8. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 23 June 2020 18: 04 New
                      +2
                      Nikolay, do you remember the "museum lady" in Pavlovsk rubbed us in that there are only three colors of marble?

                      I forgot her name! Soulful woman ... hi I liked chatting with her, in all seriousness. good
                    9. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 23 June 2020 20: 11 New
                      +2
                      I read the badge, Lyudmila.
    2. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 23 June 2020 17: 39 New
      +1
      And I'm not good at European weapons!
      I'll pull you up !!! wassat
  • AllBiBek
    AllBiBek 23 June 2020 13: 11 New
    +4
    And the French samples were taken from them there for everything, while the French were the closest of all Europeans there.
    They also dance a machine gun school from Hotchkiss, and artillery from the French field. Charter sabers are also French influence.
  • Icelord
    Icelord 24 June 2020 13: 38 New
    0
    American sabers were taken as a sample, but the Japanese quickly redid them for their motives, for example, they put a two-handed hilt
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 23 June 2020 11: 23 New
    +2
    At first he wondered where he came from, but it turned out from the estate of the very Kuropatkin who brought him from Japan.

    and this is what the Japanese form of that war looked like. On the left is the lieutenant of the guard in 1904, in the center is the rank and file of infantry, 1904. on the right - the same infantryman, but already in 1905! It turns out that the war itself stubbornly made an adjustment to the color of the uniforms! (however, as with us sad ).
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 23 June 2020 17: 55 New
      +2
      the war itself brought in!
      No wonder the Russo-Japanese War is considered the last war of the 19th century and the first - of the twentieth.
      1. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 23 June 2020 18: 05 New
        +1
        No wonder the Russo-Japanese War is considered the last war of the 19th century and the first - of the twentieth.

        И the only, where the parties behaved more or less culturally with the wounded and prisoners of war ... hi
  • Cowbra
    Cowbra 23 June 2020 18: 37 New
    0
    Quote: Mihaylov
    the very Kuropatkin who brought him from Japan.

    Sorry, but as far as I remember Kuropatkin never was in Japan
  • Cowbra
    Cowbra 23 June 2020 08: 01 New
    +7
    By the way, Vyacheslav, but do not you take up the Russian-Japanese? There, for example, one raid Mishchenko is so much interesting after all. And note - not particularly and inspected.
    1. kalibr
      23 June 2020 08: 40 New
      +6
      Quote: Cowbra
      By the way, Vyacheslav, but do not you take up the Russian-Japanese?

      You know ... I've been going for a long time. And ... a lot of material at my fingertips in my own local history museum in Penza. There were a lot of Penziaks, participants ... Surprising, right? But ... "How to open a shop window?" Problem, huh? And now another virus !!! Here it will feel better, I will take a second run.
  • Edward Vashchenko
    Edward Vashchenko 23 June 2020 06: 30 New
    +9
    Vyacheslav Olegovich, thanks,
    instructive article.
    I was at the exhibition of this museum in Moscow, about 10 years ago, although for me this story is not very attractive, but I looked with pleasure.
  • Free wind
    Free wind 23 June 2020 06: 41 New
    +4
    In the first picture, the doctor is a sadyuga. If only the armor was removed from the patient, it may be necessary to cover with rags after the operation, so as not to freeze. at least ssake poured, for courage. Yes, and the method of dressing is strange, tie a head to a tree. Maybe he doesn’t heal at all, but his competitor’s eyes are gouging. So the Japanese and opium were familiar for a long time. Skin probably horseback and cowhide for armor were used, or sea animals. Once I read on the fact that the skin is calcined, I don’t know what exactly it is. Maybe the skin is compressed at high temperatures and made hard. Probably faced with dried boots around the campfire when they dried out by three. I liked the wood armor, I fought if I won and I can provide myself with firewood for the season.
    1. kalibr
      23 June 2020 07: 29 New
      +5
      The description of this operation is taken from the Japanese manuscript "Zobie-monogotari". Everything is exactly described there! The doctor removes the arrow ... And it would take a long time to undress him ...
      1. Free wind
        Free wind 23 June 2020 07: 56 New
        +5
        I do not argue at all, I absolutely agree with you. With the then treatment, the client has little chance of surviving. I would give a samurai a knife, and let Harakiri do, well, he doesn’t heal him. Photos and videos came across on the Internet as the Japanese after their hara-kiri pulled out their eyes. A drawing by a European is drawn.
        1. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku 23 June 2020 10: 31 New
          +5
          I do not argue at all, I absolutely agree with you.

          Colleagues, Alexei and Vyacheslav Olegovich, here is this illustration from Dzokhe Monogatari, redrawn by McBride:

          Turnbull writes that it was a treatise on infantry training - holozady "barefoot". soldier
          With the then treatment, the client has little chance of surviving.

          It seems ... In principle, the chances of survival were small until the beginning of the 20th century! hi Have a nice day, everyone! drinks
          1. Free wind
            Free wind 23 June 2020 10: 45 New
            +3
            Here is a pancake oil painting laughing , from the type of one it is better to do hara-kiri than to be treated. In Japanese, no one is selenium, apparently, this is a type of comic book, and they have some kind of words.
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 23 June 2020 11: 05 New
              +2
              In Japanese, no one is selenium, apparently, this is a type of comic book, and they have some kind of words.

              specifically about this picture is a treatise from the mid-17th century. Its author for a long time commanded the lowest rank samurai - ashigaru, or "barefoot", therefore he summarized his observations in a "textbook". hi There were also tips on healing (Pour the wound in the abdomen with dry horse manure and tighten tightly. Avoid a number of things including fun and reflection!), and instructions on the organization of the battle, and other sections. In order not to freeze, it was recommended to eat one kernel of hot pepper per day .... laughing
              A brief description of excerpts from this work is given by Stephen Turnbull in this book:
            2. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 23 June 2020 17: 59 New
              +1
              This is not "oil", this is "ink". laughing
          2. Free wind
            Free wind 23 June 2020 19: 35 New
            0
            But your opinion, what do you see? Can you describe the picture? what kind of insects on the belt, Ants, hornets, bees, what is it? the painter clearly depicted what he saw, some hefty ones. In the groin, blood next to a broken arrow.?. Everyone has different characters on the form. Everyone has white skin, and a gentleman's green. This uncle with a doshirak in a pouch, such a joyful one, I’ll smash it right now. The doctor put a finger up - say where the headquarters is ... And with an arrow in his eye ... he stuck it or pulls it out. The weapon is hot. Trees are generally hemp browning.
        2. Mihaylov
          Mihaylov 23 June 2020 14: 31 New
          +4
          Quote: Free Wind
          With the then treatment, the client has little chance of surviving.

          Anything happened, as the European chronicle of the XNUMXth century reports: "At a knightly tournament, the Hungarian nobleman Gregor Basi (Baci) bravely went out to battle without a helmet, was seriously wounded: the spear entered his right eye, passed through and broke off. The arriving doctor stated with surprise that The knight is alive and decided to immediately remove the spear, but the spear, which became slippery with blood, firmly stuck in the head of the brave knight and did not give in. Then they ran to the nearest forge, brought blacksmith tongs and pulled out the spear with their help. Gregor Basi recovered. "
          And then an arrow, however, Henry II and the chips were enough
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 23 June 2020 18: 24 New
            +1
            however, Henry II and the chips were enough
            This Heinrich was very unlucky. He would have kept himself in the saddle, would have been healthy, contented with himself, and perhaps reigned. And so, he flew out of the saddle, fell, hit his head, (and the sliver, meanwhile, continued to move, having entered into consensus with the head in the helmet, which ricocheted off the ground of the stadium and took the inverse motion vector, as a result, the sliver reached the cerebellum region). The result is a fatal outcome.
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 23 June 2020 18: 44 New
              +1
              The result is a fatal outcome.

              I just found out with interest that this turned out to be a reason for banning tournaments in France. For good.
              Gregor Basi (Bachi)

              I wonder if Messire Basi’s mind was damaged after that.
              Anton, in history there is another similar character - Kutuzov! Two head wounds ... He survived, and even drove the French. laughing
    2. abrakadabre
      abrakadabre 23 June 2020 08: 07 New
      +3
      In the first picture, the doctor is a sadjug. If only the armor was removed from the patient, it may be necessary to cover with rags after the operation, so as not to freeze.
      While everyone will remove the wounded blood will expire or the horses will move from the pain shock. And so, right away, while he is under adrenaline from the battle ...
      at least ssake was poured, for courage ... So the Japanese and opium were familiar for a long time
      So maybe they already gave him everything before extraction.
      Yes, and the method of dressing is strange, tie a head to a tree.
      It was he who was tied so that when he picked the arrow out of his eye, he did not pull his head.
      Maybe the skin is compressed at high temperatures and made hard. Probably faced with dried boots around the campfire when they dried out by three.
      It is a little different there: the skin was saturated with hot wax to the state of plywood. This was done wherever leather armor was used. In medieval Europe too.
      I liked the wood armor, I fought if I won and I can provide myself with firewood for the season.
      Of bamboo plates will be very durable. And with thoughtful treatment by impregnation and varnish it is even resistant to moisture. In addition, it is much cheaper than metal. What is iron / steel, what is bronze. Because bamboo in that region is like dirt. And it grows with the speed of yeast fermentation in a chat. By the way, it will turn out quite easy. Unless in strength it will still lose. But only from heavy weapons, such as halberds, axes and klevtsov. And much thicker. From arrows it’s quite a cake.
      1. Free wind
        Free wind 23 June 2020 08: 41 New
        +1
        The red-hot skin crashed into my memory. There are many troubles with the skin. It may be soaked with wax, And if you overdo it, it can turn into jelly wink
        1. abrakadabre
          abrakadabre 23 June 2020 08: 48 New
          +2
          There are many troubles with the skin. It may be soaked with wax, And if you overdo it, it can turn into jelly
          So it’s not a steam room in wax. And they don’t cook at all. First, as usual, they are processed until ... say, cheprak. And only then. rub with wax (or apply a heated liquid with a brush) and gently warm until absorbed. And so many times.
          1. Icelord
            Icelord 24 June 2020 13: 43 New
            0
            They don’t boil at all, they impregnate with glue, and a lot of layers
    3. Revolver
      Revolver 24 June 2020 01: 23 New
      +2
      Quote: Free Wind
      Yes, and the method of dressing is strange, tie a head to a tree.

      As one half-familiar surgeon said, "a well-fixed patient does not need anesthesia." Whether he invented himself, or who else he quoted, I don't know.
  • Catfish
    Catfish 23 June 2020 08: 25 New
    +5
    Olegitch, thanks! hi I read it with pleasure, and looked through the illustrations with particular interest. But, some kind of frivolous attitude to all this appeared, somehow everything is too decorative and not "in an adult way", I mean armor, I would prefer simple chain mail to all this "cock" splendor. Although, if the enemy was in something similar, then the chances were clearly equalized. As for any "theirs" katanas, etc., I saw them in nature and held in my hands, mostly officers, trophies from different wars with the Japanese. The handles of the swords were of stunning beauty and great design, but as for the blades, the quality was not very good. True, the funniest thing was the Japanese firearm, they fired from wick muskets even in the XNUMXth century, although this was enough for such armor. smile
    1. kalibr
      23 June 2020 08: 35 New
      +5
      Quote: Sea Cat
      but as for the blades - the quality there was not very

      Not surprisingly, they switched to industrial production and there was not up to quality. We also have an officer sword in 1905 (trophy) in the museum.
    2. Icelord
      Icelord 23 June 2020 09: 12 New
      +2
      Chain mail against a powerful bow? Then it’s better to wear a silk kimono, it’s more convenient. But seriously, their armor is well thought out for the equestrian archer, here are some strange helmets with a bunch of rivets, probably so that the sword does not slip and probably breaks his head, and even with a hole in the crown
      1. kalibr
        23 June 2020 10: 41 New
        +3
        Quote: Icelord
        and with a hole in the crown

        Because the hole was removed!
        1. Icelord
          Icelord 24 June 2020 13: 46 New
          0
          But the rivets were left, and there was a hole, and on the early helmets a hair tail was passed through it, on the later comforter, but there is a hole
      2. Catfish
        Catfish 23 June 2020 12: 15 New
        +4
        Unfortunately, I used the bow and arrow only in early childhood, and I can't say anything about this. But the chain mail, it is not known what century of issue, all rusty and withstood the charge of "wolf buckshot" I saw with my own eyes at the All-Russian Research Institute of Forensic Medicine. I doubt that samurai "clothes" will digest something like that. hi
        1. AllBiBek
          AllBiBek 23 June 2020 12: 48 New
          +2
          Nevertheless, digested, the Japanese diverse-shouldered equestrian bow on punching is slightly worse than the Central Asian compound, and approaches Turkish bows, and those are the pinnacle of radiation art.
          Again, southeast Asia, chain mail was not there, ever. Imported and for the richest, hang in a conspicuous place. No varnish is enough to constantly cover all the rings, and he will peel off from them for obvious reasons in a few days.
          So that - only lamellar armor, dei-skin-metal on a fabric basis, even in the Bronze Age. People of that region could not wear all-metal kirasses physically, with rare exceptions.
          1. Engineer
            Engineer 23 June 2020 13: 47 New
            +3
            People of that region could not wear all-metal kirasses physically, with rare exceptions

            Southeast Asia?
            But the Chinese wore all-metal.
            Like the Avars - Jujuni
            1. AllBiBek
              AllBiBek 23 June 2020 13: 54 New
              +2
              All the bronze kirasses of that region that I know are the ceremonial armor of the corresponding thickness.

              As an element of military ammunition - there is an all-metal breastplate at best.
              1. Engineer
                Engineer 23 June 2020 13: 56 New
                +2
                Maybe just from poverty, and not from physical limitations ??
                Poverty in the broadest sense is insufficient development of production, etc.
                1. AllBiBek
                  AllBiBek 23 June 2020 14: 03 New
                  +1
                  Nope.
                  In China, there were no problems with bronze, in general. The whole terracotta army of Qin Shihuandi is in it. And the bronze arrows as the main ammunition for fortress crossbows and archer units - this is another millennium after.
                  But the rejection of bronze breastplates is the 5-6th century of ours. It falls well on the spread of the compound bow (at the other end of the mainland the cataphractic tactics collapsed from it), and there such good troubles with each arrow, it did not work out to get fifty mass bronze castings at a time.
                  1. Engineer
                    Engineer 23 June 2020 14: 08 New
                    +4
                    I understand everything. You are about the early Middle Ages.
          2. Icelord
            Icelord 24 June 2020 13: 48 New
            0
            The top is Korean, there’s just no literature about them in Russian
        2. Icelord
          Icelord 24 June 2020 13: 55 New
          0
          Chain mail does not hold an arrow from the word at all, therefore, the quilting is obligatory, and where the lamellar and laminar bow were developed, their arrow does not take.
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 24 June 2020 14: 12 New
            +1
            Igor, so I don’t argue. smile I'm talking about something else.
            1. Icelord
              Icelord 24 June 2020 14: 17 New
              0
              Well, as I agree, chain mail is more convenient))
    3. Undecim
      Undecim 23 June 2020 12: 05 New
      +4
      As for all sorts of "theirs" katanas, etc., I saw them in nature and held in my hands, mostly officers, trophies from different wars with the Japanese.
      So the real Japanese sword you did not hold in your hands.
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 23 June 2020 13: 13 New
        +6
        But I held the Japanese Nambu in my hands and shot from the Japanese Arisaki, and I realized that they were full of dumbasses in the firearm, there was nothing to brag about. I won’t argue about the cold guy, he is of little interest to me even from the practical point of view. I, like the hero Madame Voynich, prefer a gun, which is much more effective than any katana or something like that.
        As Vasil Ivanovich said there: "I-I-I !!! And with a bare heel on a checker!" The same can be said about the cold against firearms.
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 23 June 2020 15: 23 New
          +5
          laughing
          “The little boy found a machine gun, no one else lives in the village !!!”
          good
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 23 June 2020 15: 57 New
            +4
            You got here, but I’m sure that it was Mikado who made you up because of my specific rejection of the samurai spirit.
            in the village
            , no, not in the village, in the storeroom. The end of the eighties, Novodevichy, MG-34 and your humble servant. I didn’t want to spread it, but the denoody kudy. laughing

            The funny thing is that only one was drilled out of a set of interchangeable shafts, and the drum had an intact shutter, but ... not a piece of tape or a single cartridge. I won’t write the whole truth.
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 23 June 2020 18: 45 New
              +2

              The funny thing is that only one was drilled out of a set of interchangeable shafts, and the drum had an intact shutter, but ... not a piece of tape or a single cartridge.

              It's not funny. This is the pain of the old "Makhnovist"! laughing
              "And here I am! In a white suit! At a white piano! On black keys - sha-buda-buda! On white keys - sha-buda-buda! On red - ....., green ... (similar) laughing
            2. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 23 June 2020 23: 50 New
              +3
              that it was Mikado that made you wise because of my specific rejection of the samurai spirit.

              Mikado didn't bother anyone! He screamed all evening - he demanded to eat. They dragged me by the paws to the door from the apartment, and said - "You are now going to live in levash!" angry Already two hours afraid to blather ... belay
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 24 June 2020 14: 01 New
                +2
                Perfrasing Averchenko: anyone can offend a cat crying I'm afraid for his fate, you will "lose" him when you move.
                1. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku 25 June 2020 10: 14 New
                  +1
                  Perfrasing Averchenko: anyone can offend a cat

                  I heard this under-rephrased phrase from Bubalik. drinks
                  I'm afraid for his fate, you will "lose" him when you move.

                  The second day is silk! On a string! wink
    4. AllBiBek
      AllBiBek 23 June 2020 12: 54 New
      +3
      So there native blades are sold a hundred years before, katana is. He has her - the most expensive. Even in museums, Vis Blades are separate from their harness.
      Situations when a scabbard and a handle were worn, but the blade was not there or there was an imitation - this is the norm of the century since the 17th. And in their culture this is reflected more than, take the same "Twilight Samurai".
      After the Meiji revolution, the main officer backbone of the land army was made up of impoverished samurai, many of whom survived by the legacy of the hilt of the swords of their ancestors. And then they simply put them instead of regular ones on mass katanas intended for officers, starting from their counterpart sergeant seem.
      There is still consumer goods.
  • Engineer
    Engineer 23 June 2020 11: 22 New
    +6
    I was always struck not so much by the scrupulousness of making weapons and armor as by the lack of shields.
    Well, in terms of the length of the horns on the helmet, Yapi gave odds to any German)
    1. AllBiBek
      AllBiBek 23 June 2020 12: 42 New
      +3
      And in that region - southeast Asia - with shields, everyone is sparse, mostly growth and under two arms.
      There, the chill is mainly for two-handed work, there is no stupidly purely one-handed long-blade east of India, and the Indians are very original there with their talvarian handles, through which the blade is tightly screwed to the hand, or with pats, which are rather a combat glove with a long blade.
      They are small, feeble. And smart at the same time.
      They also did not hear the opponent’s blade parry through the main blade guard in life.
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 23 June 2020 12: 53 New
        +3
        Perhaps so, I could not immediately recall the medieval Chinese shields.
        The Indians are still mostly traditional hilt as far as I can tell.
        1. AllBiBek
          AllBiBek 23 June 2020 13: 06 New
          +5
          The theme of Indian knives is gigantic, to be honest, and Japanese against this background - like a lonely sakura against the backdrop of Fuji, but the hilt of Indian knives familiar to your eye just won't fit in your hand. In most cases. She is under the palm of a five-year-old child. Talvar hilt - and this is such a fungus with two hats - just such will be.
          There is still a separate and extensive topic of how they mixed imported blades with their ethnic handles (in each region their traditions), and how they bother with storage ... For example, the blades were stored in one place, handles in another, huge cauldrons cross them (and it was necessary to boil in boiling water) - in the third, and the glue for this procedure - there is white sealing wax - under the lock and in the cache - in the fourth.

          And then, so that even if someone rebels and begins to seize arsenals, there simply will not be any ready-made weapons in order for the uprising to expand. You can’t go far on improvisations in the field of arms.

          So they lived.
          1. Engineer
            Engineer 23 June 2020 13: 13 New
            +2
            I honestly encounter abnormally small arms of the weapon quite regularly. Etruscan daggers in the Vatican, Minoan daggers in Heraklion.
            I have no explanation. If only we assume that half of the people there were dwarves.
            There are also "children's" antique leggings and helmets
            1. AllBiBek
              AllBiBek 23 June 2020 13: 23 New
              +4
              Yes, as it were, and the remains of those people - in quantity, and - yes, below us are more feeble, but not so much.

              Campaign, they were so comfortable. And if we take societies, where there is a separate military estate, and it is hereditary there - the kids started fighting early by our standards, these are kind of child soldiers.
              Svyatoslav won at the age of seven from a horse a spear in the direction of the enemy threw, after which the battle began. Yes, and Attila killed Bled at the age of 17 seem to be age, but at that time he was already an experienced warrior, and a legitimate leader, albeit a younger one.
              With an average life expectancy less than the age of reaching the peak of physical fitness - well, adolescents - by our standards - and did all these military disgraces, under the guidance of older scumbags, who happened to survive adolescence and form into an adult man, understandable mental deformation.
              But this is also an assumption, burials, where the blades are clearly not for the buried hand - I also came across, and a lot.
              1. Engineer
                Engineer 23 June 2020 13: 28 New
                +3
                and - yes, lower than us and more feeble, but not so.

                Exactly. Small handles cannot be explained.
                In Rome, the era of the republic from 17 years of military service
                After Cannes, 16-year-olds were called up.
                This also partially explains the phenomenon, but not completely. Moreover, I doubt that they made weapons "on hand" for teenagers. If only for the nobility.
                1. AllBiBek
                  AllBiBek 23 June 2020 13: 41 New
                  +3
                  Agricultural equipment there is also very medium-sized, so it was more convenient for them to go camping.
                  According to the logic of Bronze, microhands are still understandable - they saved metal, but here is the logic of the same Kimak sabers - and they are actually Kimaks on the chest, and the three-finger hilt for them - I can’t catch it point blank.
                  A riddle, yes. Everyone is aware of her, who is at least a little in the subject and in related ones.
                  1. Engineer
                    Engineer 23 June 2020 13: 44 New
                    +3
                    Thank you for the information and opinion.
                  2. Icelord
                    Icelord 24 June 2020 14: 05 New
                    0
                    Ask Maratha Albibek for the handle)))
                    1. AllBiBek
                      AllBiBek 24 June 2020 14: 14 New
                      0
                      He asked both Dima and Oleg (Thunderstorm), and the whole other core of IHO on this subject broke many copies, but things are still there.
                      1. Icelord
                        Icelord 24 June 2020 14: 19 New
                        0
                        Well, the Indians say so chopping stronger, full of schools
              2. Icelord
                Icelord 24 June 2020 14: 00 New
                0
                On the hand, such a technique, the brush tightly clamps
          2. Icelord
            Icelord 24 June 2020 13: 59 New
            0
            Full of indian and chinese shields
            1. AllBiBek
              AllBiBek 24 June 2020 14: 17 New
              +1
              They are mainly of the format that is commonly called "fist shield". Hiking half-height on one hand - well, they did not like. I don’t even remember any analogs of tarch.
              1. Icelord
                Icelord 24 June 2020 14: 24 New
                0
                Yes, the Iudus of Tarchi, the Chinese had, the Indians, the Marathas, too, had round horseback riding, well, the Mughals, of course, had standard Asian
                1. Icelord
                  Icelord 24 June 2020 14: 33 New
                  0
                  And the Indian 19-20s, shields then skoko)))
    2. Icelord
      Icelord 24 June 2020 13: 58 New
      +1
      Samurai horse archers with a long bow over two meters, what shields, what are you talking about
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 24 June 2020 22: 17 New
        0
        It seemed to me that this is true primarily for 11-13 centuries. Further, the role of edged weapons steadily increased.
    3. Icelord
      Icelord 24 June 2020 15: 18 New
      0
      leather horns
      1. Icelord
        Icelord 24 June 2020 15: 21 New
        0
        In general, the armor, helmets and katanas of the Edo era, and even the armchairs. Souvenirs
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 23 June 2020 11: 38 New
    +5
    Greetings, colleagues.
    Vyacheslav Olegovich, thank you very much. hi
    Japan is a large and diverse topic in which there is always something new and interesting. The last time you immersed us in it, among your colleagues there were wishes to cover the history of the clashes between the Japanese and Europeans in the XNUMXth century. in the context of comparing the effectiveness of military technology, tactics, and other purely military aspects of both. It would be great if you or one of your colleagues dared to raise this topic, having examined in detail in certain articles such episodes as, for example, the battle on the river. Kagayan.
    There is another Japanese topic that I would love to read in the presentation of a smart, tactful and experienced person in presenting information, which I consider you to be. I mean erotic motifs in Japanese art. Were there any weapons and armor in the design and decoration, for example?
    I understand that the topic is slippery and therefore complex. But you, I’m sure, could well have raised it without slipping into steamy or vulgarity, and I think there is no doubt about the reader’s interest in this issue. smile
    smile
    As for the wooden and leather armor, I’ll note another point: among other things, in a hot and humid Japanese climate, they are more relevant than metal ones, since it’s very inconvenient to carry metal under it under the bright sun, which heats it to the temperature of the pan.
    1. Undecim
      Undecim 23 June 2020 12: 02 New
      +6
      There is another Japanese topic that I would love to read in the presentation of a smart, tactful and experienced person in presenting information.
      And how to illustrate the article? Send illustrations in PM? I doubt that the site administration will agree to post samples of the ancient Japanese erotic art Shunga. I’ve shoveled all my archives, but I don’t dare to expose anything, I’m afraid they will be banned.
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 23 June 2020 12: 04 New
        +4
        Oh Mom !!! Vic Nikolayevich, can you be in PM? I’ll thank my whole life! And not only me ... smile good drinks soldier
        1. Undecim
          Undecim 23 June 2020 12: 06 New
          +3
          Insert "Shunga" into the search engine, open "pictures", and you will be happy.
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 23 June 2020 12: 10 New
            +3
            On weekends I will gather people of both sexes and will have fun with barbecue and vinyl. Thank! fellow
            1. Undecim
              Undecim 23 June 2020 12: 17 New
              +2
              Do not forget to explain to "people of both sexes" that this is not the time .... nogra .... fia, but er .... otic art.
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 23 June 2020 12: 20 New
                +3
                So there is nothing to explain, there are no pictures there. Alas and ah ...
                1. hohol95
                  hohol95 23 June 2020 14: 20 New
                  +4
                  Bijin-ga (美人 が) - image of beautiful women.
                  Yakusya-e (役 者 絵) - portraits of popular theater actors.
                  Sunga (春 画 "spring pictures") - erotic prints.
                  Kate-ga (花鳥 絵 - “flowers and birds”). Pictures of the kate-ga genre can be called atlases on the flora and fauna of the Edo era.
                  Fukei-ga (府 警 画) - image of landscapes.
                  Musya-e (武 者 絵) - images of famous samurai.
                  1. Catfish
                    Catfish 23 June 2020 14: 24 New
                    +3
                    Yeah, mi understood everything, and all too. Shipasiba! Banzai !!! Shikoku Nakak. smile
                    1. hohol95
                      hohol95 23 June 2020 14: 25 New
                      +5
                      You have a barbecue stick ... Joke drinks
                      1. Catfish
                        Catfish 23 June 2020 14: 26 New
                        +3
                        So at least when! Welcome! drinks
                      2. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 23 June 2020 14: 31 New
                        +3
                        So at least when! Welcome!

                        sushi made, sake heated, geishas try on luxurious kimonos? wink
                      3. Catfish
                        Catfish 23 June 2020 14: 37 New
                        +6
                        Non-Russian pervert! negative Only barbecue, vodka and local girls! Give him a geisha ... with a moysa ... angry

                        Pop that serve!
                      4. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 23 June 2020 14: 40 New
                        +4
                        Pop that serve!

                        Girl in stockings - to burst? belay what end do you want to start digging from? request
                        Non-Russian pervert!

                        Yeah, and the proposed barbecue is an original Russian dish, and the villager is clearly dressed in a Bavarian fashion! laughing
                        ... however, what a powerful tap in the picture ... fellow
                      5. hohol95
                        hohol95 23 June 2020 14: 48 New
                        +4
                        And the mug is not for coffee! It is a pity there is no salty bagel.
                      6. Catfish
                        Catfish 23 June 2020 15: 15 New
                        +3
                        ... however, what a powerful tap in the picture.

                        Kamu - faq ... request
                        The girls do not burst, but they bark, it would be time to know that tea is not a child.
                        Otkudov start to paw, solely a matter of education and taste.
                        Shish kebab is exclusively a Russian dish, do not trust the Russophobia trilobite.
                        Fashion is not Bavarian, it is in Bavaria for some time now women began to dress in imitation of Russian villagers. And before the arrival of our Cossacks, they looked something like this:

                        A complete nightmare!
                      7. hohol95
                        hohol95 23 June 2020 15: 18 New
                        +3
                        So we washed them, cleaned them up, and now Merkel draws them for us "Figwams" ...
                      8. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 23 June 2020 15: 56 New
                        +3
                        Do not trust Russophobia trilobite.

                        And trilobite Russophobics too! By this - especially! laughing
                      9. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 23 June 2020 19: 25 New
                        +2
                        Russophobia trilobite
                        You, uncle Kostya, etta ... Rusofobov- do not touch trilobiters !!! We have an extraordinary conference the day after tomorrow, in one of St. Petersburg taverns. Envy silently! laughing
                      10. Catfish
                        Catfish 24 June 2020 14: 36 New
                        +2
                        ... we have an extraordinary conference in one of St. Petersburg taverns. Envy silently!

                        Darn! And open a branch in Ryazan !? We would be happy here! drinks
                      11. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 24 June 2020 14: 40 New
                        +1
                        Drop the number of the tablet, stock up on swill, arrange a video booze.
                      12. Catfish
                        Catfish 24 June 2020 15: 18 New
                        +2
                        I prefer nature, so it's better when meeting. drinks
                      13. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 24 June 2020 15: 38 New
                        +1
                        How do you say wink
          2. hohol95
            hohol95 23 June 2020 14: 47 New
            +4
            So you decided to stir up Oktoberfest uniform?
            The picture is clearly frau ... madam.
          3. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku 23 June 2020 14: 52 New
            +5
            The picture is clearly frau ... madam.

            Maybe she is still Fraulein or Mamsel? wink Alexei, I don’t see a ring on my finger! laughing
            So you decided to stir up Oktoberfest uniform?

            Give him free rein, he will arrange an everyday fest, not only in October! And at the highest level! good
          4. hohol95
            hohol95 23 June 2020 14: 59 New
            +5
            The damsel is so damsel!
            Free as a bird ...
            The main thing is that his "furry wife" should not show her claws to Kotu. tongue
            For such girls.
          5. Catfish
            Catfish 23 June 2020 16: 06 New
            +3
            Ha! My wife is a smart woman, and she’s all for it ... smile
          6. hohol95
            hohol95 23 June 2020 16: 08 New
            +3
            On 2D girls or on 3D ??? laughing
          7. Catfish
            Catfish 23 June 2020 16: 12 New
            +3
            You ask Lyokha Lexus, he was with us and discussed with us "the political situation in Russia" until the morning. drinks wink
          8. hohol95
            hohol95 23 June 2020 16: 14 New
            +3
            drinks drinks drinks For our gentle and moderately strict ...
          9. Catfish
            Catfish 23 June 2020 16: 18 New
            +2
            And with all my heart! drinks drinks drinks
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 23 June 2020 19: 32 New
    +3
    I will reveal a terrible secret. In St. Petersburg, drinking alcohol, with more than two participants, always ends with "Oktoberfest".
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 23 June 2020 19: 18 New
    +3
    Greta Tunberg !!! How did you change when you found the right man! laughing
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Catfish
    Catfish 24 June 2020 14: 41 New
    +2
    Who decided that ... belay
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 24 June 2020 14: 52 New
    0
    In the sense of "who dared"?
  • hohol95
    hohol95 23 June 2020 14: 39 New
    +4
    do geisha try on luxurious kimonos?

    Yukats!
    They are cheaper and more practical. But they look no worse than a kimono.
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 23 June 2020 14: 45 New
    +4
    Yukats! They are cheaper and more practical. But they look no worse than a kimono.

    Yes, in principle, you can't really tell, if not quite "in the subject" of Japan ... But it's beautiful! good Yukata?
  • hohol95
    hohol95 23 June 2020 14: 51 New
    +4
    Yukata. Probably good
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 23 June 2020 14: 53 New
    +4
    Yukata. Probably

    Nya! Truly Kawaii! good drinks
  • hohol95
    hohol95 23 June 2020 15: 01 New
    +4
    I agree. They know how to present and portray "devils".
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 23 June 2020 14: 28 New
    +4
    Shipasiba! Banzai !!! Shikoku Nakak.

    Lotoku zakopaku! Paws Vasya-Vasya! Arigato! laughing
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 23 June 2020 15: 28 New
      +3
      Oh, I’d put it here for you, the salagam, because they’ll ban it. And both of you, at the same time, for provocations. laughing
    2. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 23 June 2020 15: 38 New
      +3
      so banned. And both of you

      Zabanyaka Nai-Nai, Mikado live Banzai gather! stop
      at the same time, for provocation.

      Kokai-no Neko - provocative-san himself! tongue (kokai-no - sea, neko - cat) drinks
    3. Catfish
      Catfish 23 June 2020 16: 17 New
      +2
      shikoko nakaka?

    4. hohol95
      hohol95 23 June 2020 16: 31 New
      +2

      We are peaceful people, but we lubricate the machine gun ...
    5. The comment was deleted.
  • hohol95
    hohol95 23 June 2020 16: 26 New
    +2
    Me then forever with my 6 red cards!
    drinks And now there are a lot of similar "kawaii" on the Internet.
    It used to be that "the soul rose" to classical painting with "nudity".
    And now...
  • Catfish
    Catfish 23 June 2020 17: 45 New
    +3
    I have as many red ones. A classic, yes, it inspires and ennobles.
    I think Renoir will slip through.
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 23 June 2020 19: 48 New
    +2
    Danae inspires me at 47.
  • kalibr
    23 June 2020 12: 42 New
    +4
    At one time, I gave students an assignment in the PR course, I developed a Japanese restaurant that would be easy to "promote". Have come up with ... in the afternoon the picture "so", after 10.00 - we turn it over to "commercial". And we change the menu ... For example, we serve chocolate ... with ice cream inside.
    1. AllBiBek
      AllBiBek 23 June 2020 14: 49 New
      +3
      It wouldn't work. These are the Japanese, they have a food philosophy and the philosophy of food as such is also peculiar. For fun's sake, watch the movie "Jiro Cooking Sushi" sometime, it is so nicely closed there.
      All Japanese food philosophy is based on revealing the true taste and combining the tastes of the ingredients through the Japanese culinary approach to this issue. There are several schools and traditions, and cooking something in one tradition in the morning, and in the evening in another, would have worked better.
      1. kalibr
        23 June 2020 16: 06 New
        +2
        Quote: AllBiBek
        It wouldn’t work.

        It would work for us in Russia! People would come to look at pictures alone ...
    2. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 23 June 2020 15: 47 New
      +3
      For example, serve chocolate ... with ice cream inside.

      Hmm .. but you can glass ... with ice cream outside .... what do not thank, Vyacheslav Olegovich! bully Five percent of the proceeds of fancy sweets will quite suit me! laughing Just let them eat on rubber tables, or they can even beat them for an hour. Once again - do not thank for the original design! fellow
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 23 June 2020 12: 15 New
    +5
    Insert "Shunga" into the search engine, open "pictures", and you will be happy.

    I honestly inserted it into the search engine. For some reason there is no happiness. what Viktor Nikolaevich, then give me the money! laughing
    When a samurai exhibition was held in our Artillery Museum for several years, a separate room (behind a screen!) Was equipped with just such art for real Japanese entertainers. wink And drawings, and sculpture ... fellow it’s only a pity that it is no longer held with us, this exhibition! sad
  • Catfish
    Catfish 23 June 2020 12: 18 New
    +3
    Chu ... I’m not interested in cosmetics. negative
    1. Undecim
      Undecim 23 June 2020 12: 20 New
      +1
      What kind of makeup? Intimate?
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 23 June 2020 12: 21 New
        +3
        And hell knows, I did not look.
        1. Undecim
          Undecim 23 June 2020 12: 26 New
          +2
          You will excuse me, but in the XNUMXst century, at least Google must be able to use it.
          Try http://www.kuniyoshiproject.com/Main%20-%20Shunga.htm
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 23 June 2020 12: 29 New
            +3
            Sorry, I use it as I can. They told me to type a word, and I typed it. request
            1. Undecim
              Undecim 23 June 2020 12: 31 New
              +2
              You highlight the word, right-click, in the drop-down menu, select find the search word.
              1. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 23 June 2020 13: 16 New
                +6
                You highlight the word, right-click, in the drop-down menu, select find the search word.

                He cannot, he has paws! lol (Konstantin, no offense, but all cats have paws! drinks )
              2. Catfish
                Catfish 23 June 2020 14: 11 New
                +4
                He cannot, he has paws!

                You forget about the tail!
                From Little Red Riding Hood:
                “Grandma, why do you have such a thick and long tail?”
                - This is not a tail. - answered the Gray Wolf and blushed deeply. drinks
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 23 June 2020 12: 22 New
    +5
    Oh Mom !!! Vic Nikolayevich, can you be in PM? I’ll thank my whole life! And not only me ...

    about Emperor Bokassa, sugar pork and licking recall, Uncle Kostya? wink drinks
    Sake warms the soul.
    Mentally to me on a moonlit evening.
    Geishas in a pond splashing under sakura blossom!

    (unknown samurai cat, Edo period).
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 23 June 2020 12: 28 New
      +4
      Kohl, at one time I spoke only about Bokassa and the girls. About pork and licking, this is all your text. Do not go from sick to healthy. I have everything recorded.
      1. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 23 June 2020 12: 41 New
        +3
        Do not go from sick to healthy. I have everything recorded.

        here, you have eaten, so you have eaten! good I confess - wrong! laughing
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 23 June 2020 13: 05 New
          +3
          Not a damn thing, I'm for justice. Think of the eternal. yes
          1. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku 23 June 2020 13: 11 New
            +5
            Think of the eternal.

            Just yesterday, Vyacheslav our Olegovich talked about Kamakura, in which samurai massively killed themselves in 1333.
            So, one samurai monk then wrote suicide poems:
            On the road to Fuji
            Slow down -
            Let's talk about the fleetingness of life.

            These are historical poems that I can slightly distort from memory!drinks Turnbull leads them in one book. hi
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 23 June 2020 13: 37 New
              +3
              If my memory serves me right, then, after the emperor’s speech of surrender, the Japanese officers shot corny weapons from service weapons on the lawn in front of the General Staff building. Not until hara-kiri, damn it, it became, after a couple of atomic bombs. laughing
              1. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 23 June 2020 13: 38 New
                +3
                Japanese officers shot corpses from service weapons on the lawn in front of the General Staff building.

                Mozheiko wrote that after all, someone committed the hara-kiri in the square. But Igor Vsevolodovich could be inaccurate! hi
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 23 June 2020 13: 40 New
                  +4
                  Mozheika is physically impossible to believe after graduating from high school. laughing
                2. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku 23 June 2020 13: 41 New
                  +4
                  Mozheika is physically impossible to believe after graduating from high school.

                  well, I don’t know ... "West Wind - Clear Weather" is my handbook. The point is that he could accurately convey political events, but be sloppy in technical aspects.
                3. Catfish
                  Catfish 23 June 2020 14: 06 New
                  +4
                  Kohl, in our museum I was more of a weapon specialist on more or less modern trunks, somewhere from the middle of the XNUMXth century onwards, and as a rule, didn’t climb into my diocese, and our historians have the last name Mozheiko, okrom okrom children's laughter did not cause anything. request
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 23 June 2020 12: 16 New
    +6
    Quote: Undecim
    And how to illustrate the article?

    Well ... Can I cover my faces? smile
    1. Undecim
      Undecim 23 June 2020 12: 19 New
      +3
      Whose? Admins?
      1. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 23 June 2020 12: 26 New
        +3
        Whose? Admins?

        "The password is the same - cowards on your head!" (film "The Lord of the Rings" translated by Goblin) drinks
      2. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 23 June 2020 12: 58 New
        +3
        Admins are also possible. smile
        But the shung paintings themselves do not really interest me, or rather, they are of interest, but not in the context of the subject of HE. wink
        I’m more interested in whether erotic motifs were used to create military items, and if not, why.
        In Europe with Christian morality, of course, such a way of self-expression on the battlefield would not be accepted, but in the East - in Japan, China, India with their attitude to this issue - why not? Moreover, the themes of death and birth always went hand in hand for them.
        If you include an erotic theme in military culture, such a scope opens up for imagination in the design and decoration of weapons, armor, military symbols ...
        So it became interesting to me - was there something like this or not? smile
        1. AllBiBek
          AllBiBek 23 June 2020 13: 27 New
          +4
          Used.
          For example, Xu-Do.
          Samurai art through its ass to give sexual relaxation to a friend before the battle.
          The motive is the most erotic, and the destination is the most military.
          1. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku 23 June 2020 13: 44 New
            +3
            Samurai art through its ass to give sexual relaxation to a friend before the battle.

            Hmm .. but I thought such things-tricks in Japan were condemned ... belay
            1. AllBiBek
              AllBiBek 23 June 2020 13: 49 New
              +2
              No, it was simply not encouraged among the masses - the peasants had to breed in order to have more samoku rice, but in the conditions of a military campaign and the absence of the required number of women - it was allowed at the level of one of the possible class philosophies.
              1. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 23 June 2020 13: 51 New
                +3
                allowed at the level of one of the possible class philosophies.

                in a single unit ..... laughing interesting! I didn’t know, sir! drinks
                1. AllBiBek
                  AllBiBek 23 June 2020 13: 57 New
                  +3
                  Usually it was the duty of the squire at the request (or desire) of the master, as far as I know. Something beyond the bounds of decency was not considered.
                  1. Pane Kohanku
                    Pane Kohanku 23 June 2020 14: 00 New
                    +3
                    Usually it was the duty of the squire at the request (or desire) of the master, as far as I know.

                    I recall a domestic anecdote, when a footman Vanka, at the request of a landowner, takes off his trousers, and says: "You must marry, sir! " wassat
    2. Catfish
      Catfish 23 June 2020 13: 15 New
      +5
      Or maybe just fill the muzzle?
      1. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 23 June 2020 13: 34 New
        +3
        Or maybe just fill the muzzle?

        It is fraught. The bowl will be taken away and the tray will not be changed! (I know myself and the cat Mikado) laughing
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 23 June 2020 13: 38 New
          +4
          Who - to whom beat the face?
          1. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku 23 June 2020 13: 45 New
            +3
            Who - to whom beat the face?

            What are you talking about? laughing Konstantin, help us better deal with Vyacheslav Olegovich up a branch with a revolver! drinks
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 23 June 2020 14: 13 New
              +3
              With what revolver, I didn’t find anything.
              1. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 23 June 2020 14: 23 New
                +3
                With what revolver, I didn’t find anything.

                and you paws, paws - up the branch. wink We have already solved the mystery of typos! good
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 23 June 2020 14: 28 New
                  +2
                  Do not show off, point a finger, I will not rummage there, laziness.
                  1. Pane Kohanku
                    Pane Kohanku 23 June 2020 14: 34 New
                    +2
                    Do not show off, point a finger, I will not rummage there, laziness.

                    Well, for sure - Cat! good

                    Here is a photo of a Japanese pistol on the right. Above the forum, we came to the conclusion that the wrong caliber of 6,5 mm was indicated on the stand in the Artillery Museum. And in the end, they also wrote the name through the fifth point. drinks
                  2. Catfish
                    Catfish 23 June 2020 15: 02 New
                    +1
                    ... photo of a Japanese pistol - on the right

                    Could not write that on the right, so it’s clear that once clumsy, it means Japanese. request
                    Revolver Type 26 (Hino)
                    Type 26 or Hino, model 1893 (26th year of the Meiji era), is a great example of how you can disfigure a very good Smith-and-Wesson revolver. Cartridge: 9 × 22R mm, began to be a 9 mm revolver caliber. It was used until the end of World War II, then it was still written off as a scrap.

                    The Beetle has its drawing in the catalog, in the graphics he is nevertheless prettier.
                  3. Pane Kohanku
                    Pane Kohanku 23 June 2020 15: 09 New
                    +2
                    Revolver Type 26 (Hino)

                    Voooot! good thank! and we had to think for three, with arguments! Although we could participate! wink drinks
                  4. Catfish
                    Catfish 23 June 2020 15: 23 New
                    +2
                    I participated, and what's the difference when. The main thing is truth, and the truth is that the Japanese small arms are full of power, and they can’t get away from it.
                    I don’t even want to comment on this grave. Nambu Type 94.
                  5. Pane Kohanku
                    Pane Kohanku 23 June 2020 15: 37 New
                    +2
                    I don’t even want to comment on this grave. Nambu Type 94.

                    yes, peculiar ... what But they had enough! request At first they had enough of their own armored vehicles - although there was one - "to fight against the Papuans." laughing
                  6. Catfish
                    Catfish 23 June 2020 16: 04 New
                    +2
                    At first, they had enough armored vehicles because the enemy had none at all. You can’t seriously consider British armored cars of the twenties.
                    yes, peculiar ... what But enough for them!

                    Yeah, I already wrote about this, about a car show on the lawn of the General Staff, but for this, these little balls fit perfectly. laughing
                  7. Pane Kohanku
                    Pane Kohanku 23 June 2020 16: 19 New
                    +2
                    that the enemy didn’t have it at all

                    Americans in the Philippines had early Stewart M3s! stop Moreover, there were more than 100 pieces (it seems that the Japanese tanks did not have much more there, or even less). By the way, the Allies had more people there than the Japanese invaders. However, the tanks were safely profucans ...
                    The Japanese crew of the captured American light tank M3 Stuart; Manila Philippines; ~ 1942 year. Source: https://477768.livejournal.com/6827800.html
                  8. Catfish
                    Catfish 23 June 2020 17: 24 New
                    +1
                    The Americans, like us at the beginning of the war, learned how to fight from a more experienced enemy. Do you remember how many tanks our "profiled" in the first two years? I'm just not going to climb and look for photos of German soldiers with our tanks, and they are to hell. By the way, "Stewart" is such a terrible machine that there is nowhere to go, in Europe the Americans, in my opinion, did not use them at all. Although Japanese tanks in general, except for tears of pity, can not cause anything.
                  9. Pane Kohanku
                    Pane Kohanku 23 June 2020 18: 03 New
                    +1
                    in Europe, in my opinion, the Americans did not use them at all.

                    used.
                    Although Japanese tanks in general, except tears of pity, can not cause anything.

                    Against the German background, the same pity in 1944 caused the tanks of the Allies!
                  10. Catfish
                    Catfish 23 June 2020 18: 09 New
                    +1
                    Perhaps except for "Sherman-Firefly". The gun on it was British and very good.
                  11. Pane Kohanku
                    Pane Kohanku 23 June 2020 18: 12 New
                    +2
                    Perhaps except for "Sherman-Firefly". The gun on it was British and very good.

                    This one is yes. yes
      2. Icelord
        Icelord 24 June 2020 15: 55 New
        +1
        This is a masterpiece, especially the moving parts outside. Nobody could pile this)))
      3. Icelord
        Icelord 24 June 2020 15: 56 New
        +1
        but nambu 14 is quite
      4. Catfish
        Catfish 24 June 2020 16: 48 New
        +1
        The chamber is dead there. request And it would be better not to reinvent the "wheel", but simply copy one of the best samples. Something, but they were always good at copying.
    3. Catfish
      Catfish 24 June 2020 16: 09 New
      +1
      Nobody could pile this)))

      Only a Japanese genius inspired by sakura, after a boiled glass of sake. laughing
    4. Icelord
      Icelord 24 June 2020 23: 47 New
      +1
      And the quality of processing is what, it’s impossible to take a gun and not be scratched, I really turned this garbage for a long time in my hands. Not understood
    5. Icelord
      Icelord 24 June 2020 23: 48 New
      0
      And after all there was a quite suitable pistol. This is real sake
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 23 June 2020 20: 08 New
    +3
    When you are too lazy to figure it out - do not show off! And then, damn it, "put the rum, show your finger, order a striptease!" The cats are spoiled, in the end! For a long time Kuklachev was not dragged in a team !!! laughing
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 23 June 2020 19: 55 New
    +1
    Easy!!! To whom?
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 24 June 2020 15: 20 New
      +2
      I can send portraits, but you already know them all. laughing
  • Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 23 June 2020 15: 37 New
    +2
    I propose another option.
    To cover up everything except persons !!! bully
    1. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 23 June 2020 15: 51 New
      +3
      I propose another option. To cover up everything except persons !!!

      ... and then gather a group of psychological training for imagination ... wink Like:
      - Tell me, honorable, what do you see in this picture?
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 23 June 2020 19: 12 New
    +2
    Unambiguously banned!
  • kalibr
    23 June 2020 12: 39 New
    +4
    Quote: Trilobite Master
    I mean erotic motifs in Japanese art. Were there any weapons and armor in the design and decoration, for example?
    I understand that the topic is slippery and therefore complex.

    Yeah ... You can find. But ... how to illustrate? There are a couple of chaste pictures, and somehow I gave them here. Couple! And the rest ...
    1. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 23 June 2020 13: 08 New
      +2
      I did not mean just pictures, Vyacheslav Olegovich, but precisely erotic motifs in military equipment. I don’t know, for example, a naked woman on a shield, so that the enemy is distracted, a mace in the form of a phallus or a combat head in the form of a female bosom, maybe some military charms or heraldic signs on this subject ...
      I don’t know ... I haven’t seen anything like it yet, but I haven’t specifically looked for it, and, moreover, the Far East in general and Japan in particular are not my strong points. So it became interesting - is there something on this topic? smile
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 23 June 2020 13: 20 New
        +2
        I did not mean just pictures, Vyacheslav Olegovich, namely erotic motifs in military equipment.
        I even came up with the title of the article: "Phallic motives in Japanese polearms of the Edo period."
        1. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku 23 June 2020 16: 21 New
          +1
          I even came up with the title of the article: "Phallic motives in Japanese polearms of the Edo period."

          why not the heian period? stop
          1. Undecim
            Undecim 23 June 2020 16: 33 New
            +1
            Because the Japanese pole arms, just like Japanese, finally developed by the XNUMXth century.
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 23 June 2020 16: 34 New
              +2
              Because the Japanese pole arms, just like Japanese, finally developed by the XNUMXth century.

              We even get a valuable information from you! I bow, sir! good
            2. Icelord
              Icelord 24 June 2020 23: 58 New
              -1
              There was no degradation, oh God forgive me, there were no weapons in Japan of the 17th century, the ceremonial current
        2. Icelord
          Icelord 24 June 2020 16: 07 New
          -1
          That was not then a weapon, so for reasons such as tati it’s uncomfortable to wear, but family, what should I do? Correctly cut the blade by a third, make decorative light scabbard and get a katana, light and comfortable
      2. AllBiBek
        AllBiBek 23 June 2020 13: 35 New
        +4
        There would be slightly different in this role, the East is the same. Naked primary and secondary there is no surprise.
        In fact, you are trying to consider this aspect of world history through the prism of your current sexual morality, and where culture is based on the Avramic religion - that is, all Christian and Islamic countries, and Israel that joined them - the intercourse itself and all it is being done. For original sin.
        The very same Chinese, for example, to cause embarrassment of the enemy in battle - there is enough to depict female legs, bare below the knees. But on the bare chest, they will not lead.
        The Japanese have tabooed a complete exposure of a woman in this process.

        And so, in Japanese culture, any manifestation of male sexuality is generally considered natural, so if the enemy’s coat of arms displays an octopus copulating his wife, and your coat of arms shows slightly worn silk women's panties and the school and class number where she studied wore - it will be perceived completely normal.
        1. kalibr
          23 June 2020 13: 43 New
          +4
          Well said!
        2. Free wind
          Free wind 23 June 2020 14: 48 New
          +3
          Not anymore, already banned. Sale of such linen is prohibited.
          1. AllBiBek
            AllBiBek 23 June 2020 14: 53 New
            +5
            Through retail devices on the street - yes, banned, so now only through the Internet.
            They will also ban it - they will come up with their darknet, with renju and geisha.
            It has already become part of their sexual culture, it is displayed - massively - in their cartoons for adults and television shows, so it’s useless to fight.
      3. AllBiBek
        AllBiBek 23 June 2020 14: 43 New
        +4
        There are a lot, but for this you will not be in Asia, but in Africa and both Americas before the arrival of the Spaniards.
        Especially in Africa a lot.
        There is still a little in the Middle East during the time of Babylon and Novovylon, but not so much.
        The Celts come across, but overall not a lot.
        The lower the average annual temperature in the area, the generally less of all this is here, and humidity also affects.
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 23 June 2020 15: 03 New
          +3
          Quote: AllBiBek
          to Africa and both Americas

          Quote: AllBiBek
          The lower the average annual temperature in the area,

          The less people think about reproduction. smile
          Well, I probably agree.
          It is incomprehensible and a little disappointing why the Japanese were not fond of this. I would like to see how exactly they could implement this topic in practice in relation to combat equipment. smile
          1. AllBiBek
            AllBiBek 23 June 2020 15: 16 New
            +3
            If in three words - the sublimation of a stagnant society.
            There is a peak in the development of erotomania - 18-19 centuries. The country is isolated, the legal emperor is a nominal person, in power - a hereditary military estate, war - is dramatized to the disgrace. Worse than in India in the first centuries of ours.
            So - what else could they do? Yeah, just that.
            In fact, the nation was stuck at the mental level of development and thinking of a teenager who already has puberty, but does not have ways to satisfy her naturally. So they turned on the imagination as they could.
  • Icelord
    Icelord 24 June 2020 15: 44 New
    -1
    the Japanese did not make leather armor, not the Mongols, iron only
    1. Icelord
      Icelord 24 June 2020 15: 49 New
      -1
      Oh ho, how many myths, leather armor is heavier and tougher, equestrian archer is uncomfortable
  • Mihaylov
    Mihaylov 23 June 2020 11: 49 New
    +4
    Quote: Engineer
    Well, in terms of the length of the horns on the helmet, Yapi gave odds to any German)

    Well, you can’t leave your wives for a long time to go to war: there are not only horns, other people's children will grow up, like Parthenians. lol
  • +5
    +5 23 June 2020 13: 58 New
    0
    The need for inventions is cunning ... especially when there is no ore, metallurgy or normal steel .... the armament of a European of any age (even peripheral Russia) or an Arab is simply a child prodigy compared to the Japanese of the same century.
    And these "divine" katanas, the fighting style of which is "die but dare not break the sword." Yes, and the samurai spirit ... when the Spaniards sailed to the Philippines, everything turned out as usual ... 56 Spaniards are fighting for 3 days with one and a half thousand Iponians ...
    1. AllBiBek
      AllBiBek 23 June 2020 14: 40 New
      +3
      Uh-huh.
      And that is why the Russo-Japanese war was shamefully purged both on land and at sea.
      Moreover, Russia before Japan had centuries and a half odds of industrialization, if we take from the reforms of Peter the Great and quite comparable in scale and vector of the Meiji Revolution.

      Island armor and blades are always interesting and original, take at least the Philippines, at least Malaysia, at least the Solomon Islands. Do not take only Britain and Greenland, this is another.
      1. +5
        +5 23 June 2020 14: 48 New
        -1
        What does the 20th century war have to do with edged weapons? I’m not even going to talk about reasons now, and what is the merit of the Nihons themselves in this war. And, the lightning defeat of the Kwantung Army, according to your logic, should again return the Nihonts to the trees to the brothers? Or Fukushima?

        Interesting and original - this is one who argues with this .... but effective and good, in comparison with the mainstream, this is different.
        1. AllBiBek
          AllBiBek 23 June 2020 15: 02 New
          +3
          Well, then look in the pre-Petrine expositions that the GIM, that the Artillery, that the Armory, the Russian saber of pre-Petrine times with a Russian - and not imported - blade. I must say right away, a drop in the ocean - they are there, mostly in storage.

          Try to find at least one import blade in Japanese museums for the same time period.

          The Japanese are an island culture, in everything. Of course, its realities will be unusual for you. Similarly, our realities are unusual to them.

          But that's just on the basis of this to express your "Fi!" their weapon traditions are at least infantile.

          They keep their history, traditions, and artifacts extremely carefully. But we have a problem with this.
          1. +5
            +5 23 June 2020 15: 11 New
            -2
            In general, I didn’t write about the storage of artifacts, but about the fact that their weapons culture was much inferior to European, Arab and a little bit like that - I casually mentioned that even Russian (the peripheral European-Arab). It makes no difference where the sword of the oprichnik is made, if he had it with thousands of other men around him. If you take a set of weapons (including armor) even of a Russian warrior of any age, even the oriented time of the 16th century (I don’t even speak about Western European), then he (the army, more precisely) will endure the Japanese (or the army, more precisely) .... they didn’t meet with the necessary islands ...
            1. AllBiBek
              AllBiBek 23 June 2020 15: 30 New
              +2
              Yes, how can I tell you ... Before the start of the industrial revolution in Europe, in general, all blades throughout the world are still rubbish with rare exceptions in our time.
              In the field of armor, too, everything that has been known since antiquity; and shells, and kirassy, ​​and chain mail, and lamellars, and much more.
              And with such initial data, any hereditary warrior who was taught to work with a blade from childhood, with his usual blade will be approximately equal to the same from the other end of the globe. Just like a one on one fighter. This is a postulate. Next come personal qualities, familiar strategies and tactics, direct military experience, and so on.
              Yes, the technique of working with katana from the side seems strange, it is not sword, but closer to saber.
              Begin to perceive it as a light two-handed saber - it will be the most effective for a light two-handed saber, and only for it. And all the armor is the best that is to protect against it.
              1. Free wind
                Free wind 23 June 2020 16: 00 New
                0
                It seems like the Ulberts were not bad. Katana seems to have fencing reduced to the principle, pulled it out, pushed it in, no means it’s stuck in you, and she herself was like Zekov’s knives. Nitsche handle so beautiful and a blade of rusty crutch. In Europe, there were real fencing schools, without any rituals .. Fencers and instruction books wrote - painted.
                1. Icelord
                  Icelord 24 June 2020 23: 54 New
                  0
                  Not a katana is not a combat sword at all, but ken is not a military equipment, you judge by the weapons of the Edo era, so no one has fought for 300 years. All for beauty, but the tati of the Hinai era, it’s curious
              2. +5
                +5 25 June 2020 11: 23 New
                0
                Why are you? Which warrior, which blade? You’re hitchhiking with a trembling from a movie about a ninja sliding down .... even before the era of mass fire, European knightly cavalry or thirds / Swiss with 6-meter spears in 12 rows will roll a samurai heroic rabble into a pancake without losses, like some savages ... Yes, even the Mongolian cavalry (about which for some reason they think that it was light) and the Muscovite created in its likeness ... it's not about fights, but war.
                In Spain, in the 16th century, treatises on fencing, substantiated from the point of view of physiology, were written, by the way. But they had to consider a waving shoe on foot only at sea, on land it rarely came to her.

                I realized for myself that a sword (regardless of shape) is an infantryman’s weapon with a center of gravity in the middle of the blade and they can / should fencing, while a saber is a cavalryman’s weapon with a center of gravity shifted towards the end and was created for one quick and strong blow. ..
            2. Icelord
              Icelord 25 June 2020 00: 09 New
              0
              Well, the Japanese armor is better, and much, sabers are irrelevant, the whole question is who has the bows better, but here the question comes in, that the samurai then shot from bows from childhood, and in general they didn’t do anything else
    2. Engineer
      Engineer 23 June 2020 16: 05 New
      +3
      Every time I read about a clash between Japanese and Spaniards, Lenin’s immortal words about the problem of quotes on the Internet are recalled laughing
      Well, people do not want to dig a little deeper and find out where the ears grow.
      You see, there is no such "European" warrior. But people persist in comparing Europeans to the rest, meaning the Swiss infantry, French gendarmes, Milanese artillery, English archers, etc. All this against the unfortunate samurai
      Japan in the 16th century is about France of the same time in terms of population - approx. 18 million people.
      Speaking about the "childishness" and "frivolity" of Japanese military affairs, for example, the 16th century, one must remember
      Monstrous mobilization potential. A consequence of the era of the belligerent provinces. The number of people familiar with weapons in Japan was abnormally high by European standards. Before the invasion of Korea, samurai of all types alone numbered hundreds of thousands. To this we add thousands and thousands of ashigaru. Moreover, part of the ashigaru handled match-match guns at the level of the same archers. From the point of view of the human reserve, no Russia of the 16th century stood by. This whole army is content with small portions of rice and a little sake - the real dream of a logistician. Let's compare with the English soldiers who daily consumed 5-6 liters of beer a day (medieval documents have survived). Japanese discipline is traditionally at its best. Compare with the European mercenary armies of the time. Here we turn to another trait - the Japanese army is completely national. "The Japanese have their own pride." This is quite a positive point.
      What about katana? What is katana? An unprotected human armor (and most of these) katana cuts and cuts almost perfectly. For hard work, there are tatis and naginatas.
      Of course there are many disadvantages. The most important is in the 16th century art in homeopathic doses.
      1. Icelord
        Icelord 25 June 2020 00: 12 New
        0
        There were no Spaniards, who told you that? Only Commodore Perry's rifle allowed Europeans to enter Japan
        1. Icelord
          Icelord 25 June 2020 00: 22 New
          0
          The Portuguese had a trading mission, yes, but they handed over all the weapons and gunpowder for the guns, and they were forbidden to leave the mission territory on pain of death
      2. Icelord
        Icelord 25 June 2020 00: 27 New
        0
        There was no katan in the 16th century
        1. Engineer
          Engineer 25 June 2020 12: 32 New
          0
          There were no Spaniards, who told you that?

          1580 Japanese clash with the Spaniards at Kagayan. Philippines.
          There was no katan in the 16th century

          Bazhenov History of the Japanese sword
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 23 June 2020 20: 32 New
    +3
    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich! Hope this is just the beginning ....
    1. kalibr
      24 June 2020 19: 50 New
      +2
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      Hope this is just the beginning ....

      Such that the end is not visible!