Military Review

Endpoint of the 16th Army Route

106

The following abbreviations are used in the article: А - army IN - military district, gsd - mountain rifle division, GSh - General base, ZhBD - magazine of military operations, Spacecraft - Red Army, u - mechanized (in spacecraft) or motorized (in the Wehrmacht) case, md (mp) - motorized division (regiment), MPR - Mongolian People's Republic, RGC - reserve of the high command, Goals Difference - intelligence materials, RU - Reconnaissance GSh KA, sk (sd) - rifle corps (division), TVD - theater of operations, TGr - tank Group, td (mn) - tank division (regiment).


In the article, the designations of HE or fronts are used: Far Eastern Front - Zabaykalsky Military District, Zapovo - Western Special Military District, KOVO - Kiev Special Military District, LVO - Leningrad Military District, OdVO - Odessa Military District, OrVO - Oryol Military District, Pribovo - Baltic Special Military District , Siberian Military District - Siberian Military District, North Caucasian Military District - North Caucasian Military District.

A small digression


In two parts, a version on the purpose of displacement will be proposed 16th A and considered the events that occurred at the same time. It should be noted that the documents that reliably confirm the version could not be found ...

In the thirties, a number of countries pursued policies in the interests of their states at the expense of other peoples. They did not care how many tens of millions of people would die in Europe. The three largest countries led the world to a new war. They all played their cards and tried to win. It is about the USA, England and Germany. In the article "The fight for the Second World War" sets out a detailed chronology of events on the eve of World War II.

The Soviet Union tried to prevent the outbreak of war in Europe and its expansion. Our government understood that in a future war the USSR could be one against an alliance of several states. When it was necessary to negotiate with Hitler, the USSR had to negotiate, because other countries tried to negotiate with him. The USSR did not have allies until the start of World War II, and therefore, the Soviet government needed to neutralize the emerging threats itself.

The introduction of the spacecraft into part of the territory of the Nazi-defeated Poland. Is it bad or good from a modern point of view? And from the point of view of that time? When Poland was betrayed by its allies, England and France? If you do not enter the troops of the USSR, then the Nazis will be on the border of the Minsk region ... The introduction of troops in the Baltic countries ... Is this good or bad? The USSR government then pushed the starting line for the German invasion from Pskov to the border of East Prussia.

The entry of troops into Moldova and Bessarabia ... The proposal of Finland to review the borders and the ensuing war ... Is it good or bad for our country? You can find the arguments for and against. Perhaps our government would respond: “It would be much better for the whole of Europe and for the USSR if World War II had not started at all ...”

The government of the USSR tried as hard as it could to confront Germany, which crushed the whole of Europe under itself. Therefore, all the events of the 41st year should be considered in terms of the confrontation of the USSR to a group of countries: Germany, Romania, Hungary, Finland, Japan and, oddly enough, England.

By concluding a non-aggression pact with Japan, our government managed to drive Japan out of the cage of hostile countries. To secure our eastern border and, if necessary, transfer part of the divisions to the European part of the country. Planning for military operations before the war was aimed at surviving our country at all costs. Do not give advantages to our enemies. To delay the beginning of the war or to avoid it ...

Repetition of key points


I will repeat the main points from the previous parts (Part 1 и Part 2).

1. According to the General Staff, Germany in the event of war with the USSR put up to 180 ... 200 divisions without taking into account the allied forces. In the RU report on 20-00 on 22.6.41, the German group, concentrated towards the border, was estimated at 167 ... 173 divisions. The report also refers to the possible approach of new divisions from the west to the border. This indirectly indicates that, until June 22, the RU and the General Staff evaluated the German grouping on the western border (in the event of a war with our country) in the amount of about 180 divisions.

2. Based on the presence of 180 ... 200 divisions of the General Staff at the border, the grouping of the spacecraft troops was determined, which should have been in PribOVO, ZAPOVO, KOVO, OdVO (hereinafter referred to as western military units), in the LVO and as part of the RGK forces. Taking into account the enemy’s grouping of 180 ... 200 divisions in the General Staff and in the western military districts, in May 1941, "Cover Plans ..." were developed. The army divisions of the RGCs were in their places of deployment until they received instructions. The exception was a few compounds from the composition of 19th A (SCWO). It should be noted that the troops of the RGK are not only the armies moved from the internal districts, but also the corps that were deployed in the territory of the western military districts. For example, the 2nd MK and the 7th SK, which were located on the territory of the OdVO.

3. From May to June 1941, enlisted personnel are called up for training camps, most of which are sent to staffing SDs located in internal districts.

4. In May, the Republic of Moldova arrives on the concentration of the German army on the border with Turkey, on the movement of 3-4 (at least) German divisions on Turkish territory. In addition to reports about the preparation of a war with the Soviet Union, there are reports that states such as Syria and Iraq are next in line for the German invasion. Iraq has a border with Iran, in which pro-German sentiments flourish. Iran that did not set aviation fuel for German and Italian aviation, which counteracted British aviation in Iraq ...

5. According to intelligence, from April 11.3.41, 25 to April 1,43, the rate of concentration of German troops from other theater of operations to our border averaged 25 divisions / day; from April 15 to May 0,95 - 15 divisions / day. From May 19 to June 0,3, the concentration rate decreased significantly and amounted to about XNUMX divisions / day. This could indicate that the Germans chose another theater of operations as the next operations.

P. A. Sudoplatov wrote about this period:

Although the intelligence received exposed Hitler’s intention to attack the Soviet Union, many reports contradicted each other. In them were absent assessments of German military potential: tank formations and aircraft located on our borders and capable of breaking through the defense line of spacecraft parts. No one in the state security service seriously studied the real balance of power on the Soviet-German border. That is why the power of Hitler’s strike was in many ways unexpected for our military leaders, including Marshal Zhukov, then head of the General Staff. In his memoirs, he admits that he did not imagine an adversary capable of such large-scale offensive operations with tank formations operating simultaneously in several directions ...

6. Intelligence data, which carried a significant amount of misinformation, also led to the conclusion that Germany would strike the next theater of operations. So, in the RU report dated 31.5.41 it was noted that 120-122 German divisions were concentrated against the USSR. Almost the same number of divisions was concentrated against England on all fronts: 122-126. A comparative number of divisions are concentrated against the two main opponents ... Which enemy will be hit next? How to determine this?

Probably, in the direction in which the associations and formations used in deep breakthroughs are concentrated. Before the start of the war, reconnaissance mobile units (TGr), which consisted of mk. Our command believed that at the end of 1940 Germany had 10 mk, and not a single corps was near our border. They were not found before the start of the war.

Specific example. One of the strongest strike groups is the 2nd TGr, concentrated near Brest. In the operational reports of the General Staff, this direction, where a large mobile group breaks through, is not considered either in the morning of June 22, or in the evening of June 22, or in the morning of June 23. No one suspects a breakthrough and disaster in this direction. Why? Below is a fragment of the map of the ZAPOVO headquarters with the situation that they knew about on June 21. The map was prepared immediately after the outbreak of war (apparently) to explain the causes of the disaster. A similar card should have been in the General Staff.


The map shows that Brest does not have a large mobile German group. There are only two headquarters of the army corps, three headquarters of the infantry divisions (40th, 47th and one with an unknown number, which are estimated in three infantry divisions), two headquarters of the cavalry brigades of the border troops (a total of four cavalry regiments), the headquarters of the tank brigade (two tp) and mp. Brest itself does not have a single artillery regiment ... All German units are deployed far enough from the border. At the same time, about 50-60% of the troops are deployed in the same places in which our intelligence detected them by May 31.

Against the German grouping are four spacecraft and one spacecraft. In the depths are still td and md. According to such intelligence in Moscow, could they really make the right decision on the withdrawal of troops to field positions? Data from the districts about a sharp change in the situation and an increase in the number of German troops directly at the border did not manage to pass along the RU line to the people's commissar of defense and the chief of the General Staff. It turns out that the information received by telephone was simply not believed, looking at a map with an older setting ...

Often asked: “Back in May 1941, in RM there was information about the commander of the German tank corps traveling to the area near Brest, and later about the movement of an entire so on. Why didn’t you believe such information? ” There can only be one answer: these were the only reports that were not confirmed for nearly a whole month by any Soviet intelligence or a single source.

At a meeting of the high command staff in December 1940, they repeatedly spoke about the strikes of mobile groups supported by a large number of landing forces, and when breaking through the defensive line, heavy tanks go ahead ...

According to intelligence, as of 25.4.41, Germany had a significant grouping of 8-10 parachute divisions, and not one of them was on our borders. As of May 15, intelligence had known that 1-2 parachute divisions were deployed in Greece, 5-6 on the northern coast of France and Belgium, 2 inland.

As of May 31, our border had one paratrooper regiment against the ZAPOVO and two units (either regiments or battalions) against the KOVO. One parachute division is deployed in the central part of Romania. Intelligence also brings information that two paratrooper divisions will be used to capture oil fields in the Soviet Caucasus. All information about these divisions is a fiction, but it comes from intelligence as reliable ... They believe it, and in Moscow they try to calculate their response.

In the Republic of Moldova there is evidence that Germany has 15-18 SS divisions. These are elite compounds. But intelligence did not find any of these divisions near our border at this time and will not detect them before the outbreak of war ...

It’s heavy, in contrast to which our KV-3 tanks are created and anti-tank brigades are formed with 107-mm cannon guns and 85-mm anti-aircraft guns (there are smaller guns in the brigades), but not one of the heavy ones will be found at our borders before the war. This is also misinformation ...

Endpoint of the 16th Army Route

No one in the spacecraft leadership at this time can't even come to mindthat available at the border about 125 German divisions (rather than 180) without airborne divisions, without heavy troops, without creating shock mobile groups are capable in a short time break up KA frontier armada ...

Changing the size of the group on the eastern borders


From the autumn of 1940 to June 1941, in the documents of the General Staff on the planning of spacecraft groupings in the West and in the East, there is a change in the number of troops of the Far Eastern Front and ZabVO. Various options are being considered for sending troops from this theater of operations to the European part of the country.

On 18.9.40, in the draft Notes on the Basics of Deployment ..., as part of the FEF and ZabVO troops, in the event of war in the West, there should be up to 39,5 divisions.

11.3.41 in the "General Plan of Strategic Deployment Plan ..." provides for the presence of up to 38,5 divisions, taking into account the redeployment of three divisions from the Siberian Military District.

After concluding an agreement with Japan and ratifying it on April 26, instructions from the General Staff on preparations for relocation were sent to the Far Eastern Front and ZabVO:
- from the Far Eastern Front - control of the 31st air force, the 211st and 212nd airborne brigades, the 21st and 66th regiments;
- from ZabVO - the 16th A as part of the 32nd sk (46th and 152nd SD) and 5th microns (13th and 17th TDs, 109 ppm).

The management of the 31st sk, 211st and 212nd airborne brigades descended west in the month of May.

On May 13, the KOVO sent a Directive on the redeployment to the territory of the SK control district with hull units, GDS and four SDs of 12000 each. Arrival of the first echelons of control of the corps, the 28th State Duma and 38th SD - from May 20. Arrival of the first echelons of the 158th, 171st and 129th SD - from June 2-3.

Perhaps this was due to the relocation to the border of German divisions. Until May 15, the rate of transport of troops was about 0,95 divisions / day. No one could predict how the speed of German troops would change by the end of May or early June. Therefore, there is a slight increase in the group of RGCs in the KOVO (5 divisions in 15-20 days).

On the same day clarifying directives are sent on preparations for the transport of troops to the headquarters of the DF and ZabVO. According to these Directives, it was required to prepare in addition to sending 82nd md (ZabVO), 59th td and 69th md from FEF.

After May 17, a draft document is being prepared at the General Staff, according to which 27 divisions remain at the Far Eastern Front and ZabVO (there were five brigades, which were not taken into account in the counting of troops).


At this time, in the Far Eastern Federal District there are 17 SD, 3 TD, 2 MD, 1 CD, and in ZabVO - 6 SD, 4 MD, 5 TD. In accordance with “Considerations ...” ten divisions should be sent from the indicated regions from the indicated regions from Moscow to the west: one unit, four units and five units.

At the end of May, six divisions are being prepared for dispatch from ZabVO: 13th, 17th and 57th TDs, 109th MDs, 46th and 152nd Divisions. Therefore, we can say that when making the decision to send troops from ZabVO, they were not guided by the project “Considerations ...”

In the Certificate “On the Deployment of the Armed Forces in the event of a war in the West” dated June 13, 31 divisions remain in the FEF and ZabVO (21 div, 4 TD, 5 MD and 1 CD), i.e. all divisions that remained after sending the 5th MK, 32nd SK and 57th TD. This again confirms the assumption that the project “Considerations ...” was not considered when planning the spacecraft groupings.

The beginning of the redeployment of the 16th Army


Somewhere after April 23, certain RMs come in, which cause shock in Moscow. Something is being discussed in the People’s Commissariat of Defense and in the General Staff. With some kind of proposal, the leaders of the AC apply to the Central Committee of the CPSU (b) and to the government. As a result of the discussion, an urgent directive is sent to the headquarters of the ZabVO on April 25.

On the morning of April 26, the commander of the troops and a member of the Military Council of the ZabVO together with the command of the 16th A are sent to the troops. Unexpectedly for all, the chief of staff calls the commander of the district to the telephone and reports on the receipt of the urgent directive. The district command and the 16th A fly by plane to Chita and learn about the instructions on sending the army. Only the direction is voiced - somewhere to the west. Loading should be carried out at night, and the district chief of staff has a schedule for sending trains.

If the trains began to load on the night of April 26-27, then by the morning of the 27th the first train went. According to the memoirs of the member of the Military Council of the 16th A.A. Lobachev, the first to leave were the tankers, and by the morning of June 3 (in 7 days) all the formations and units of the army had left. It turns out that this is not entirely true ...

There is a recollection that the artillery regiment of the 109th md arrived on June 5 in Chita. The 46th SD (from the 32nd sk) began to relocate to the west only at the end of June. The report on hostilities of the 13th TD indicates the later dates for sending army units:

The outbreak of war on the 13th TD found a railway transportation to ORVO on the way. The whole division was sunk and sent from Transbaikalia 4-14.6.41 at 43 train levels. The composition of the echelons was made in order to concentrate in a non-equipped camp. Not a single echelon is almost a combat unit. With the declaration of war, all echelons changed direction. The first five trains were delivered to KOVO, Berdichev, 24.6.41, where they unloaded and received a combat mission. These echelons were: one rifle battalion, two combat engineer companies, reconnaissance battalion, anti-aircraft battalion battery, communications battalion and division management ...

Similar events occur when sending the 57th TD from the MPR. The division commander does not mention in the memoirs the deadline for the start of the dispatch, but, obviously, the first echelon also set off by the morning of June 27, because he arrived a little later than the first echelon of the 16th A, sent from Transbaikalia. The last train, probably, was also sent somewhere on June 3. The redeployment order was unexpected, because lumber for masking tanks and guns had not been brought in advance to the place of deployment of the division on the territory of the MPR.

V.A. Mishulin (commander of the 57th TD):

At the end of May ... Comrade M. Povelkin told me the order of the General Staff: the division was redeployed to the Soviet Union ... With the permission of the district headquarters, I set off with the last echelon. This decision was made in order to get the missing repair tools and tires planned by the headquarters of the ZabVO and the receipt of this property in the 17th Army ... In early June, the last train was sent ...

When transporting tanks, they disguised themselves as wooden crates. Or around the tanks a frame was constructed, covered with a tarp. Sentries from the equipment were also hidden. When transporting the first echelons of the army, the personnel were in closed wagons, in which it was forbidden to open doors and hatches at stages and at large stations. The echelons did not stop at large stations, and personnel were fed at small stations.

Army transportation route


A. A. Lobachev in his memoirs indicates the route of the echelons of the 16th Army. This route is confirmed by the memories of other veterans. The echelons will continue to move along the same route after the outbreak of war. There are no memoirs or documents confirming the fact of transporting the echelons of the army before the war on the Trans-Siberian Railway. For a long time, A. A. Lobachev’s memoirs were the only ones that 16th A was intended (or it seemed to be intended) for redeployment to the Transcaucasus.


The fact of transporting by rail in Central Asia is completely incomprehensible. Railways in Central Asia are single-track, unlike the double-track Trans-Siberian Railway. The transportation of many military echelons along these roads was to significantly reduce the volume of transportation of national economy products and raw materials for several republics. This is due to the fact that the speed of transportation of trains on a single track is almost two times lower than on a double track. In some sections of the double-track road, there were funds to accelerate the movement of trains. Therefore, the choice of the route is one of the mysteries of the movement of the 16th A. Both available directions of the railways from Central Asia were overloaded to connect with the rest of the USSR to the north-east and north-west.


E. Drig. "Mechanized corps of the Red Army in battle":

There was a rumor among the personnel that the troops were going "to war with Turkey." The destination destination station was not communicated. Among the senior command staff there was information about alleged plans to concentrate the corps in ZakVO ... One of the tank battalions of the 17th TD met on June 22 at Arys station near Tashkent ...


Endpoint of the 16th Army Route


In the book “Commander Lukin”, a version is proposed about the end point of the route of the 16th Army in early June 1941. In the next part, we will try to verify this version using indirect facts and memoirs of war veterans.


In preparation for the transportation of troops of the 16th Army and when moving in echelons, war veterans voiced three alleged goals for the redeployment of the army. The first is a westward movement, i.e. to the European part of the USSR. The second is for the war with Turkey. The third is the border with Afghanistan. Non-commanding military personnel did not name a country like Iran in their memoirs.

The commander of the Western Front mentions the redeployment of the army to the border with Iran (from 30.6 to 2.7) A. I. Eremenko: “At the very end of May, the army received an order to redeploy. The original destination was Transcaucasia near the Iranian border, however, there were changes along the route and the army was sent first to ORVO and then to KOVO ... ” Perhaps Marshal Eremenko heard about this from other war veterans ...

There is only evidence that the 16th Army was not sent to Transcaucasia. The People's Commissar of Railways spoke about this. I.V. Kovalev:

The fascist command was already completing the concentration of its three main military groups on the Soviet border, the German Ministry of Foreign Affairs presented a note to our leadership and asked for an explanation: why was the Soviet 16th Army from Transbaikalia being transported west by rail?
Stalin ordered Marshal Tymoshenko to temporarily turn the echelons of the 16th Army south and inform Berlin that the army was heading for the Persian border in case the British tried to strike from India through Persia. It is unlikely that they believed in Berlin, but achieved their goal - one of our armies was delayed on the way. I learned about this case from Mehlis ...


Readiness for the 16th Army War


In different parts of the 16th A, from the beginning of May, personnel will learn about the upcoming relocation to the west. To the west - this is not necessarily to the western military forces. This could be an inner district, which would border on the western military district. Of course, there was no question of any secrecy of traffic in such an environment. Both the military and family members of command personnel learned about the upcoming transportation. Plans were discussed, some of the relatives went to their relatives, so that later they would come to their husbands to a new place of residence. Rumors spread on trains and in other regions.

Preparing boxes for transporting things. If you look at the 333th artillery regiment of the 152nd SD, then transportation of things required up to two cars in the train. The conversations were not particularly stopped, because the troops were transported from one internal district to another. An order to ban the transportation of things was not given, on the contrary, separate wagons were provided for these purposes. Those. In the beginning - mid-May, the army was not preparing to go to war, but it simply relocated to more civilized places. Only these places were not so far from the western VO.

ZhBD 16th A:

All ... compounds (32 sk, 5 microns) began to be transferred from ZabVO in the last days of May and the beginning of June. 57 TD was transferred from the MPR. It took more than a month to fully concentrate the army.
It is characteristic that all the units began loading with the thought that they would be transferred from the wild steppes of Transbaikalia to the European part of the USSR, they would go to camps, were in peace, therefore they tried to take more property for life, life and study.
About everything that is needed for war and battle, they took only by order, all the property of the majority of the beginning. The composition was sent to their family affairs. An unforgivable mistake was in the formation of echelons. Trains traveled without ammunition and equipment weapons. After unloading, they were not operational ...

Such an attitude to the place of future deployment, voluntarily or involuntarily, should have affected the performance of official duties. If the commander of the 57th TD was able to knock out spare parts and tires for cars before redeployment, then in the 109th MD they did not or could not. Perhaps because people did not go to war, but to camps. There, in the camps, everyone will give a lift, and we will manage to do everything on time ... Only they had to engage in battle from the wheels ...

There were also problems with the combat training of the 5th mk. The problems were the same as in other spacecraft associations that had not been opened before the war ...

5th MKB:

Disadvantages:
a) the case was poorly knocked together and had no combat experience. There was not a single exit to the teachings with a full material part. The elementary traffic rules were not followed during the march, especially the adjustment of routes, the headquarters were not trained to manage their units in the difficult operational environment in which the corps was located;
b) insufficiently decisive and truthful intelligence. Information about the enemy is often increased by intelligence agencies. Military intelligence was conducted very poorly or not at all. As a result of this, during the attack of [the enemy] on 8.7.41, most of the 34 tp tanks got stuck in the swamp in front of the defense of the [enemy] and died from artillery fire;
...
f) the issues of artillery interaction with tanks and infantry are not well defined ...

It turns out that the equipment in the corps was not so reliable, and the corps was not so combat-ready ... For example, part of the 109th division was forced to unload and fight separately from the division:

Parts of 109 MD ... 29.6.41 were unloaded by railroad Smolensk - Orsha. By the end of the day 4.7 ... combat vehicles: 100 BT-5, of which 39 were faulty; 13 BT-7, of which 6 are faulty; 11 BA-20, of which 8 were faulty ... There were absolutely no spare parts for military and transport vehicles. Wheel machines, including drill machines, have 75% rubber wear ...

The book E. Temezhnikova “And our tanks are fast”, an excerpt from the ZhBD of the 16th TP 109th MD is given: “During the period from 2.7 to 19.7, detachment 109 md passed 500 km. The condition of the materiel was unsatisfactory, combat vehicles had an extremely low power reserve of 20-25 hours. There were no and no spare parts. The extremely low technical condition of 16 mp is characterized by the following indicators: out of 113 tanks, combat losses were 12, the rest were out of order for technical reasons ... "

The ending should ...
Author:
Articles from this series:
Preparation for the redeployment of troops of the 16th Army in 1941
1941. Where the 16th Army was preparing to redeploy?
106 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must to register.

I have an account? Sign in

  1. Same lech
    Same lech 15 June 2020 06: 07 New
    12
    The introduction of the spacecraft into part of the territory of the Nazi-defeated Poland. Good or bad

    Certainly good ... on the bones of this hyena we had to protect ourselves ... only that way.
  2. Olgovich
    Olgovich 15 June 2020 07: 57 New
    +9
    The three largest countries led the world to a new war. They all played their cards and tried to win. It is about the USA, England and Germany.

    ALL countries play their cards.

    The United States, with an actual lack of an army, with defense spending in 1939 less than ... in 1925, TWICE TIMES and the policy of isolationism do not fit into this statement.

    Germany, Japan and Italy - unleashed WWII
    The Soviet Union tried to prevent the outbreak of war in Europe and its expansion. Our government understood that in a future war the USSR could be one against an alliance of several states.

    Of course, I tried and showed the most possible activity. But no one trusted the USSR with its Cominterns and the 1937s.

    England / France did not become different from the 18th century — they were equally unprincipled predators. But before 1914, they managed to agree with them, but before WWII, no. Reason above
    The introduction of the spacecraft into part of the territory of the Nazi-defeated Poland. Is it bad or good from a modern point of view?

    Well from all points of view, both then and today. Adopted and approved even by the West (then)
    The entry of troops into Moldova and Bessarabia ...

    Um ..
    Moldova is Bessarabia (part of it).
    An excellent solution was not just input, but the return of Romania to the Bessarabian province of Russia occupied by Romania. What the USSR demanded for all 22 years

    The fact that Moldova came up with it is already a mistake, but this is from another opera.

    And the input is absolutely correct and legal.

    With the Baltic States, everything is true and officially legal.

    Finland is a mistake, because they provided themselves with a strong enemy in WWII
    By concluding a non-aggression pact with Japan, our government managed to drive Japan out of the cage of hostile countries. Secure our eastern border and, if necessary, transfer some divisions to the European part of the country

    It is a success, yes
    On the other hand, Who paid attention to "contracts" then?

    Only the power of the USSR there and the outbreak of conflict between Japan and the United States in TO prevented Japan, and not a piece of paper.
    To delay the beginning of the war or to avoid it ...

    It was possible to delay or avoid only a FORCE-fully mobilized combat-ready army against the same German already standing on our border. And not by scrupulous observance of treaties (which cost nothing), avoiding provocations (Hitler spat on formal occasions) and TASS statements that did not delay the war for a moment: when Hitler prepared, then he went, neither earlier nor later.
    1. strannik1985
      strannik1985 15 June 2020 08: 28 New
      +3
      It was possible to delay or avoid only a FORCE-fully mobilized combat-ready army against the same

      You know very well that this is impossible. Until June 1941, there was no combat-ready army on the other side of the border; until May we had more divisions, in May it was approximately equal.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 15 June 2020 10: 38 New
        +5
        Quote: strannik1985
        You know perfectly well that this is impossible.

        WHO prevented (banned, invaded, imposed sanctions)?
        Quote: strannik1985
        e until June 1941 there was no combat ready army on the other side of the border; until May we had more divisions, in May it was approximately equal.

        On the other side of the border there was a FULLY MOBILIZED fighting one for 2 years and, naturally, combat ready, the army is just a FACT.

        On our side, everything is just the opposite.

        That only did not "delay", but only provoked the attack.
        1. strannik1985
          strannik1985 15 June 2020 12: 23 New
          0
          WHO prevented

          Not "who", but "what. We discussed, don’t you remember?
          Lack of training - material base.
          On the other side of the border was a FULLY MOBILIZED warrior for 2 years

          It’s logical, because the Reich is at war. That's just this army throughout the country was located, and not on our border.
    2. Krasnoyarsk
      Krasnoyarsk 15 June 2020 09: 32 New
      +2
      In everything I support except, -
      Quote: Olgovich
      He did not trust the USSR with its Cominterns and the 1937s.

      It turned out like Filatov's - "Wherever they talk about anything, all one will reduce to women"
      Quote: Olgovich
      Finland is a mistake, because they provided themselves with a strong enemy in WWII

      It is foolish to think about what would happen if ...
      Do you have confidence that if Soviet-Finnish had not happened, Finland would not have become an ally of Germany?
      Italy and I did not fight at all from the word, but this did not stop Mussolini from fighting with us.
      In all the rest I support.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 15 June 2020 10: 48 New
        +4
        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
        In everything I support except, -
        Quote: Olgovich
        He did not trust the USSR with its Cominterns and the 1937s.


        Do you want to say that the West trusted the USSR? Or something different?
        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
        Quote: Olgovich
        Finland is a mistake, because they provided themselves with a strong enemy in WWII

        It is foolish to think about what would happen if ...
        Do you have confidence that if Soviet-Finnish had not happened, Finland would not have become an ally of Germany?

        90 percent sure.
        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
        Italy and I did not fight at all from the word, but this did not stop Mussolini from fighting with us.

        Fascist Italy is a longtime ally of Hitler, a member of the Axis.

        Finland to them, no side.

        Sweden, Turkey - not attacked. And they could.
        1. Krasnoyarsk
          Krasnoyarsk 15 June 2020 11: 29 New
          -2
          Quote: Olgovich
          Do you want to say that the West trusted the USSR? Or something different?

          Exactly, something else.
          = Moscow negotiations (also tripartite Soviet-French-British negotiations in Moscow, English triple alliance negotiations) - trilateral negotiations on the conclusion of a mutual assistance agreement between the USSR, Great Britain and France (April - August 1939). Negotiations are deadlocked =
          Why? Due to mistrust? Do not tell my slippers. They wanted to scare Hitler with these negotiations and did not want to bind Hitler’s hands with this treaty, hoping to push him to war with the USSR. And when Hitler captured France and bombed Britain, the Saxons retreated and declared their support for the USSR. And mistrust has nothing to do with it.
          Quote: Olgovich
          90 percent sure.

          Which calculator was considered?
          Quote: Olgovich
          Sweden, Turkey - not attacked. And they could.

          They could, they could. And Japan could. But they didn’t attack. Why? Ah, they just didn’t trust Hitler. There is no such thing in politics - I trust, I do not trust.
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 15 June 2020 12: 12 New
            +3
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            Why? Due to mistrust?

            You did not answer the question: did the West trust the USSR? (well no)
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            They wanted to scare Hitler with these talks.

            it yes
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            did not want to bind Hitler's hands with this treaty

            They did not want to bind themselves to the USSR, fearing him a little less (or no less) Hitler
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            hoping to push him into a war with the USSR.

            And the USSR hoped to push Hitler to the West and was very happy that he did it, "it worked out" when "yes, the predator grappled" in the West of Europe and come out weakened ..

            But the joy was short-lived and Hitler came out repeatedly reinforced
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            Which calculator was considered?

            On the same as you
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            They could, they could. And Japan could. But they didn’t attack. Why? Ah, they just didn’t trust Hitler. There is no such thing in politics - I trust, I do not trust.

            They didn’t attack, because there were other goals and interests, more important: they thought so.
            1. Krasnoyarsk
              Krasnoyarsk 15 June 2020 14: 29 New
              -1
              Quote: Olgovich
              You did not answer the question: did the West trust the USSR? (well no)

              You are inattentive.
              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              There is no such thing in politics - I trust, I do not trust.

              Quote: Olgovich

              They did not want to bind themselves to the USSR, fearing him a little less (or no less) Hitler

              What, where, in what way did the USSR threaten the paddling and naglosaksami?
              Is Russia threatening anyone today? It seems - no. And look what a howl is about the Russian threat - both Poles and Balts and mattresses. There were still idle fabrications about the Russian threat in the 30s, and today they remain. And they were needed only to cover up their aggressive policies, what then, what now.
              To remove suspicions of aggressiveness, Stalin imprisoned all Trotskyists and "loyal Leninists" for their aspirations for a world revolution, i.e. exporting revolution.
              So, the USSR did not pose any real threat to them, with its weak economy compared to theirs and, as the Finns showed, a weak army.
              What means -
              Quote: Olgovich
              And the USSR had the potential to push Hitler to the West
              ?
              Did Molotov tell you this? Let's leave your fantasies aside and start from the facts.
              Quote: Olgovich
              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              Which calculator was considered?

              On the same as you

              And I did not give any "tsifiri". Don't bend it.
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 16 June 2020 05: 58 New
                +4
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                You are inattentive.
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                There is no such thing in politics - I trust, I do not trust.

                The question was different: yes or no? There is no answer, respectively
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                What, where, in what way did the USSR threaten the paddling and naglosaksami?


                The USSR is unpredictable — no one knew what to expect from him, what he would do, how he would fulfill the agreements and whether the harm from cooperation would be greater than the benefit — that was perceived.


                Example: the crisis with the Sudetenland and the proposed assistance to Czechoslovakia with the alleged passage of Soviet troops through Poland. Well, to be honest, I would, in the place of Poland, also not let our troops through through it.
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                Is Russia threatening anyone today? It seems - no. And look what a howl is about the Russian threat - both Poles and Balts and mattresses.

                Of course not. not threatening. Physically not threatening.

                But Russia threatens them with its potential power, resources, truth
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                There were still idle fabrications about the Russian threat in the 30s, and today they remain.

                The committee with its revolutions and the overthrow of the governments of the countries still sat in Moscow.
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                To remove suspicions of aggressiveness, Stalin imprisoned all Trotskyists and "loyal Leninists" for their aspirations for a world revolution, i.e. exporting revolution.

                They were killed for something completely different: Vyshinsky, General Prosecutor: "Trotskyists are a team of the SS and the Gestapo."
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                So, the USSR did not pose any real threat to them, with its weak economy compared to theirs and, as the Finns showed, a weak army

                I think that there is no threat, but Russia / the USSR is too powerful a country in Europe to neglect its strength.
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                Did Molotov tell you this?

                Stalin said: "
                There, in the west, the three biggest powers grabbed each other's throats, when to decide on the question of Leningrad, if not in such conditions, when hands are busy and we are provided with a favorable environment?
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                And I did not give any "tsifiri". Don't bend it.

                But the calculator is the same - an assessment of the possible
                1. Krasnoyarsk
                  Krasnoyarsk 16 June 2020 08: 48 New
                  -1
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  The question was different: yes or no? There is no answer, respectively

                  If I ask you - are you blue or green? I mean the color. What will you answer me? Yes - blue, or yes - green? No, you say - in nature there are none.
                  Quote: Olgovich

                  The USSR is unpredictable — no one knew what to expect from him, what he would do, how he would fulfill the agreements and whether the harm from cooperation would be greater than the benefit — that was perceived.

                  All this is your speculation. You cannot operate with what you do not know for certain. Did Stalin know what the "partners" would do in Munich? They were predictable. Do not talk nonsense. Are Trump, Macron, Merkel and others predictable for Putin? Putin, recognizing Poroshenko, assumed that he would pursue such a policy? By the way, not a single dog in Europe and abroad will be able to reproach the USSR for non-fulfillment of contractual obligations.
                  Cave anti-Sovietism is blocking your eyes.
                  Quote: Olgovich

                  Example: the crisis with the Sudetenland and the proposed assistance to Czechoslovakia with the alleged passage of Soviet troops through Poland.

                  Horses mixed in a bunch, people ...
                  The passage of Soviet troops through Poland was supposed only in the case of the creation of an anti-Hitler union between the USSR, France and England. And had nothing to do with Czechoslovakia.
                  And to provide military assistance to Czechoslovakia, there was -
                  SOVIET-CZECHOSLOVATSKY MUTUAL AGREEMENT AGREEMENT 1935 was signed on May 16 in Prague. Entered into force on June 8, 1935
                  And for this, it was not necessary to send Soviet troops to Poland.
                  And why was no help provided? For two reasons: 1. There was a clause in the contract that stipulated the terms of assistance - only if France would do so.
                  France did not help Czechoslovakia.
                  And 2. Czechoslovakia refused to accept assistance from the USSR
                  Quote: Olgovich

                  But Russia threatens them with its potential power, resources, truth

                  And what about the USSR? Military force?
                  Quote: Olgovich

                  The committee with its revolutions and the overthrow of the governments of the countries still sat in Moscow.

                  So what? It was only in your brains that it was some kind of threat, even not understood by you
                  Quote: Olgovich

                  They were killed for something completely different: Vyshinsky, General Prosecutor: "Trotskyists are a team of the SS and the Gestapo."

                  Are you serious? I feel sorry for you.
                  Quote: Olgovich

                  Stalin said: "
                  There, in the west, the three biggest powers grabbed each other's throats, when to decide on the question of Leningrad, if not in such conditions, when hands are busy and we are provided with a favorable environment?

                  Was it in this way that Stalin pushed Hitler to war with France and England?
                  Olgovich, are you all right?
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 17 June 2020 07: 16 New
                    +4
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    If I ask you - Are you blue or green? I mean the color. What will you answer me? Yes - blue, or yes - green? No, you say - in nature there are none.

                    Yes, there is an answer to this "insidious" question and it sounds simply: "NO!" all yes
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    All this is your speculation. You cannot operate on something that you do not know for certain.

                    I know for sure, see. The Baltic states. Therefore, the Poles were not allowed to go.
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    They were predictable.

                    Of course, yes: they are the same drowning that 20, 100, 200 years ago, nothing new
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    The passage of Soviet troops through Poland was supposed only in the case of the creation of an anti-Hitler union between the USSR, France and England. And no relation to Czechoslovakia didn’t have.

                    read, huh? To not write nonsense.
                    At this level of "knowledge" there is nothing to talk about with you.
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    And what about the USSR? Military force?

                    its EXISTENCE. And this is power, influence, resources
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    So what? It was only in your brains that it was some kind of threat, even not understood by you

                    Such brains were not only mine.
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    Are you serious? I feel sorry for you.

                    This is very serious: it is officially declared by the Soviet Union in the Supreme Court of the USSR to the whole world
                    This is .... jokes?
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    Was it in this way that Stalin pushed Hitler to war with France and England?

                    He pushed it on August 23, 1939, and the cited-visible result of the push was one of the goals on August 23.

                    Say, however, that Stalin did not hope at the signing that the Pact would push Hitler to the West. lol
                    1. Krasnoyarsk
                      Krasnoyarsk 17 June 2020 08: 40 New
                      -2
                      Quote: Olgovich

                      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                      If I ask you - are you blue or green? I mean the color. What will you answer me? Yes - blue, or yes - green? No, you say - in nature there are none.
                      Yes, there is an answer to this "insidious" question and it sounds simply: "NO!" all

                      Do not understand. No blue or no green?
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      I know for sure, see. The Baltic states. Therefore, the Poles were not allowed to go.

                      What are you talking about? About your illiteracy? When the Poles declared that they would not let the USSR troops pass to the borders of Germany, the Baltic states were not yet part of the USSR. It becomes of no interest to you.
                      Quote: Olgovich

                      Of course, yes: they are the same drowning that 20, 100, 200 years ago, nothing new

                      And it's all?! laughing
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      read, huh? To not write nonsense.

                      Oh well. a reference to the studio.
                      Quote: Olgovich

                      Say, however, that Stalin did not hope at the signing that the Pact would push Hitler to the West.

                      I'll tell you. - You draw "knowledge" from the alternative history of WW2
                      1. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 17 June 2020 12: 01 New
                        +6
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Do not understand. No blue or no green?

                        no to both.
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        What are you talking about? About your illiteracy? When the Poles said they would not let the Soviet troops to the borders Germany,
                        Which Germany? belay I'm talking about CZECHOSLOVAKIA. One cannot but know the elementary, or even talk with you, nothing: Vladimir Putin, 2019, quoted the then Prime Minister of France
                        Eduard Daladier: "Not only do not have to rely on Polish support, but there is no certainty that Poland will not strike from the rear."


                        V.Putin:
                        Also, when the question was about Czechoslovak military assistance French Prime Minister Edouard Daladier raised a question before Polish ambassadorm Lukasevich “Will the Poles miss the Soviet troops?” Lukasevich answered in the negative. Daladier asked if they would miss Soviet airplanes. Lukasevich said that the Poles would open fire on them. When Lukasevich answered negatively and to the question whether Poland would come to the rescue if ... Germany declares war on France, the Polish representative replied that no

                        That's how it was.


                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        When the Poles said that they would not let the Soviet troops pass to the borders of Germany, the Baltic states were not yet part of the USSR. It becomes of no interest to you.

                        But I KNOW what happened in the Baltics, and that's why I say that the Poles were right: "See the Baltics"
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        And it's all?

                        Enough to understand their essence
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Oh well. a reference to the studio.

                        higher there
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Say, however, that Stalin did not hope at the signing that the Pact would push Hitler to the West.

                        I'll tell you. - You draw "knowledge" from the alternative history of WW2

                        the history of the WWII was learned by you 40 years ago

                        But it was completely different: on September 7, 1939, Stalin:
                        “The war is between two groups of capitalist countries. We are not averse to fighting them well and weakening each other. It’s not bad if the position of the richest capitalist countries (especially England) was shaken by the hands of Germany. Hitler, himself not realizing this and not wanting, is shaking and undermining the capitalist system <...>. <…> We can maneuver, push one side against the other, so that we’re better torn. Non-aggression pact helps Germany to some extent. The next moment is to push the other side. ”

                        Do you hear now?
                        There are goals and means. Stalin confirmed me yes .

                        Outcome-pushed until June 22, 41, left alone ....
                      2. Krasnoyarsk
                        Krasnoyarsk 17 June 2020 12: 38 New
                        -1
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        no to both.

                        Those. to the question - trust or not trust you answer - no to both. Original. Let me remind you, I said that in international politics there is no such thing - I trust, I do not trust.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Which Germany? belay I am talking about CZECHOSLOVAKIA.

                        And how much germanium is in your brain? When negotiations were underway between the USSR, France and England to curb the aggressor (Germany), Czechoslovakia was gone. There were protectorates of Bohemia and Moravia and independent Slovakia under the protection of the Reich.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        There are goals and means. Stalin confirmed me

                        Yes, only you managed to interpret Stalin’s words like that. fool
                      3. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 17 June 2020 13: 05 New
                        +5
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Those. to the question - I trust or do not trust you answer - no to both Original.

                        Usually. request I think so.
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        And how much germanium is in your brain? When negotiations were underway between the USSR, France and England to curb the aggressor (Germany), Czechoslovakia was no longer

                        We talked about the time of the CRISIS CRISIS -cm. above, where I stated, to your possible passage of our troops to the Czech Republic through Poland, that you answered:
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        The passage of Soviet troops through Poland was supposed only in the case of the creation of an anti-Hitler union between the USSR, France and England. And had nothing to do with Czechoslovakia.


                        As proved to you, HAD!
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Yes, only you managed to interpret Stalin’s words like that.

                        Everything they were told was absolutely DIRECT: what, why, and why.

                        Everything happened up to the predicted BURNS.

                        Interpret them .... otherwise! hi .
                      4. Krasnoyarsk
                        Krasnoyarsk 17 June 2020 13: 46 New
                        -1
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Usually. request I think so.

                        And yesterday you claimed that the West did not TRUST the USSR.
                        Today I do not trust and do not trust. Oh yeah.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        We talked about the time of the CREDIT CRISIS

                        I don’t know what you were talking about there, but I talked about Poland’s refusal to let in Soviet troops during the negotiations of the USSR, France and England that took place in the year 39. With the Sudeten crisis, if my memory serves me, occurred in 38.
                        Once again for those who have problems with memory. After the "Sudeten crisis", when the aggressiveness of Germany became clear, negotiations took place between the three indicated states with the aim of curbing Germany. The USSR proposed to move its troops to the eastern borders of Germany, leading them through the territory of Poland. Simultaneously with the concentration of the troops of France and England at the western borders of Germany.
                        Poland, having participated with Germany in the Deriban of Czechoslovakia, dreamed to continue to participate in the Deriban of Ukraine, and therefore did not agree to miss the Soviet troops. What else is not clear to you here?
                        You are constantly losing the thread of conversation and therefore bursting without knowing what.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        As proved to you, HAD!

                        As I proved to you, I didn’t have it: the Sudeten crisis - 38 years, the Soviet proposal for the passage of Soviet troops through Poland to the borders of Germany (!!!) - 39 years.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Interpret them .... otherwise!

                        No, I won’t. To break through the jungle of your gloomy mind is not given to me.
                      5. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 18 June 2020 05: 21 New
                        +4
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        And yesterday you claimed that the West did not TRUST the USSR.
                        Today I do not trust and do not trust. Oh yeah.

                        Nobody trusted anyone, yes.
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        I don’t know what you were talking about, and I talked about Poland’s refusal to let in Soviet troops in the negotiation process of the USSR, France and England which took place in the year 39. With the Sudeten crisis, if my memory serves me, occurred in 38.

                        Lying: we were talking specifically about the CREDIT CRISIS and precisely in 1938: we read above:
                        Quote: Olgovich

                        Example: crisis with the Sudetenland and Czechoslovakia's proposed assistance with the alleged passage of Soviet troops through Poland.

                        Your ignorant answert: Horses mixed in a bunch, people ...
                        The passage of Soviet troops through Poland was supposed only in the case of the creation of an anti-Hitler union between the USSR and France and England. And no relation to Czechoslovakia didn’t have.

                        You are trying to get off, but, alas for you, everything is saved at the top.
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        No, I won’t. To break through the jungle of your gloomy mind is not given to me.

                        You can’t, therefore, you won’t.
                        Ibr is said very clearly and unambiguously, WITHOUT the possibility of twofold push.

                        For sim hi
                      6. Krasnoyarsk
                        Krasnoyarsk 18 June 2020 10: 24 New
                        -2
                        [quote = Olgovich] Nobody trusted anyone, yes. [/ quote]
                        Well, it dawned on you and you agreed with me. [Quote = Olgovich] Lying: [/ quote]
                        And you are insolent. Here are your words -
                        [quote = Olgovich]
                        Example: the crisis with the Sudetenland and the proposed assistance to Czechoslovakia with the alleged passage of Soviet troops through Poland. Now, to be honest, I would, in the place of Poland, also would not let our troops go [/ quote
                        And I have convincingly proved to you that the "Sudeten crisis" is in no way connected with the Soviet Union's proposal for the passage of troops through Poland and its refusal to let them pass.
                        When the USSR made such a proposal (on the passage of troops). at the negotiations of the USSR, France and England, Czechoslovakia was no longer as a state.
                        You, not knowing the history of WWII, got into a dispute and, seeing your failure, you also have the audacity to accuse me of lying. You behave unworthy of a decent person. I have long noticed that all anti-Soviet advisers are dishonest people.
                      7. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 18 June 2020 12: 33 New
                        +4
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Nobody trusted anyone, yes.
                        Well, it dawned on you and you agreed with me.

                        show where I stated the opposite.
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Example: the crisis with the Sudetenland and the proposed assistance to Czechoslovakia with the alleged passage of Soviet troops through Poland. But to be honest, I would, in the place of Poland, also would not let our troops

                        And I have convincingly proved to you that the "Sudeten crisis" is in no way connected with the Soviet Union's proposal for the passage of troops through Poland and its refusal to let them pass.

                        1. The passage of our troops to the CZECH REPUBLIC was discussed, see higher .

                        And another 21,05,1938 the Polish ambassador in Paris told the American. That if the Soviets pass to the CZECH REPUBLIC, Plsha will declare war and fight with them.

                        2 And so you are non-Russian, say so: the proposed and the proposed are DIFFERENT words, see Explanatory Dictionary
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        You, not knowing WWII history got into an argument and, seeing your failure, you also have the audacity to accuse me of lying. You behave unworthy of a decent person. I AM I have long noticed that all anti-Soviet advisers are dishonorable people.

                        1. It's just a persecution mania. yes

                        2. WHAT argument did I "get into", liar ?!

                        It's YOU pestering me like a bath, yeah, see. higher. hi
  • Yuriy Nikolaev
    Yuriy Nikolaev 16 June 2020 20: 00 New
    12
    At that time, no one trusted anyone, they acted according to the logic that they understood.
    The West, of course, was afraid of Hitler, but France considered itself unkillable because it had larger suns and hoped for England, England considered itself inaccessible because of its location and this was partly true, the USSR was afraid of everyone because it knew that the whole west was ready to gobble up the USSR, and I did everything so that the war would go on somewhere in the west. I would not say that the USSR was glad that they were mating, I would say that it was glad that it was not with him. And regarding the short-lived not only in the USSR but also in England and especially in France, who believed that they had solved the Munich agreement, Japan didn’t attack because it provoked an attack on the United States, and a great merit in this, if not all, Foreign intelligence of the USSR.
    You just compare all the facts of that time, arrange all events in a chronology. After all, the flight of R. Hess to England is not an escape of the insane, Hess appeared there only with an agreement with Hitler. The British did not touch him, but still have not declassified the minutes of his interrogations and conversations. Yes, and the death of Hess itself raises a lot of questions specifically to the British.
    In fact, I could say this - Churchill certainly outplayed everyone in Europe, German intelligence outplayed the Soviet because the General Staff knew that 122 German divisions were concentrated against England and against the USSR had the same strength and therefore held their strength on this basis, and it was not clear where Hitler really hit. Stalin beat for the time being, then he seemed to lose, but his loss ended up being a win for him. But the most important thing is that in the West they screwed up everything against the USSR.
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 17 June 2020 07: 24 New
      +5
      Quote: Yuri Nikolaev
      the whole west is ready to gobble up the giblets of the USSR

      The West and ate itself with pleasure, see. the timeline you mention.
      Quote: Yuri Nikolaev
      The Soviet Union was glad that they were mating, I would say that it was glad that it was not with him

      Exactly to what is among themselves, for they WILL WEAK, and the USSR will prove to be the strongest
      Quote: Yuri Nikolaev
      And about the short-lived not only in the USSR but also in England and especially in France,

      this of course is.
      But the fact that the USSR was left alone against Germany, having united the resources of all of Europe (almost) = it was a gross miscalculation of the leadership of the USSR_France had to be saved with a blow in May 1940, and not CONGRATULATED Guiller with the capture of Paris.
    2. ccsr
      ccsr 17 June 2020 13: 05 New
      -15 qualifying.
      Quote: Yuri Nikolaev
      German intelligence outplayed the Soviet one because the General Staff possessed data that 122 German divisions were concentrated against England and against the USSR they had the same strength and based on this, and it was not clear where Hitler really hit.

      This is a big stretch, because 122 German divisions were deployed in different parts of Europe, and even physically could not simultaneously participate in the war against England if they were in Norway, Italy or Yugoslavia. Given the fact that any German division within two days was transferred from France to the Eastern Front, it is difficult to believe that the General Staff ruled out such a possibility in the war against us. That's why I say that German intelligence outplayed ours (I wonder how you imagine it, if the German general staff determined the deployment of troops, not intelligence) I consider it unreasonable - this is from the area of ​​myths, because the discrepancy between our and German data on the number of divisions did not exceed 2-3 %, which in itself is unique to that time. And with Hitler’s strikes it was quite accurately defined back in March 1941 in a report by Golikov, where he indicated three options for the actions of German troops. A more detailed deployment of German troops was presented on May 31:
  • Florian geyer
    Florian geyer 15 June 2020 21: 34 New
    +3
    Between 1918 and 1944, Finland was an aggressive state of a nationalist fascist type. A kind of northern Poland. In its brief history, Finland attacked Soviet Russia twice (in 1918 and 1920) in the hope of gaining the territory of Karelia and part of the present Murmansk region.
    In 1939, Finland persistently provoked a war with the USSR, and hoped to win it (!).

    There is no reason to think that if the Winter War had not taken place, Finland would not have joined Hitler. Wants to get their piece of Soviet territory, and dreams of the Great Suomi would not go anywhere.
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 16 June 2020 06: 11 New
      +2
      Quote: Florian Geyer
      Between 1918 and 1944, Finland was an aggressive state of a nationalist fascist type.

      It's funny: an "aggressor" with an "army" of ... 30 thousand people and 30 ... "tanks" PMV (1939)
      Quote: Florian Geyer
      In its brief history, Finland attacked Soviet Russia twice (in 1918 and 1920) in the hope of gaining the territory of Karelia and part of the present Murmansk region.

      In 1918, Lenin was the first to attack Finland recognized by them. sending troops, money and weapons there.
      Borders-stipulated when recognizing "the independence of the mountain-lenins? No? So the Finns considered Karelia theirs, Lenin-theirs, what questions?"
      Quote: Florian Geyer
      In 1939, Finland aggressively provoked a war with the USSR

      lol laughing
      Quote: Florian Geyer
      There is no reason to think that if the Winter War had not taken place, Finland would not have joined Hitler. Wants to get their piece of Soviet territory, and dreams of the Great Suomi would not go anywhere.

      There are reasons: Sweden didn’t attack, and she already has claims!

      And as it was, if it was, Niktyo does not know ....
      1. Florian geyer
        Florian geyer 16 June 2020 23: 03 New
        +1
        In 1918, no Leninians attacked Finland and sent nothing there. On the contrary, Russian troops and the fleet were withdrawn from Finland through the Brest Peace. Those who didn’t want or didn’t have time paid a price — the white Finns simply shot all the Russians who came across in spite of their political orientation. Since the Bolsheviks prudently dumped in St. Petersburg, it was mainly their opponents who came under the distribution, primarily the officers and their families. In the same Vyborg, the Finns piled up ramparts of executed Russian officers and their families.

        Borders and demarcations are empty talk. The separation took place within the administrative boundaries of the Finnish VK in the Republic of Ingushetia. Neither Petersburg nor Olonets provinces had anything to do with him. Moreover, the tsars, creating the VKF, gave him the original Russian territories right up to Korela (Priozersk). But the appetites of the newly-minted great nation extended already to the Mordovians and Maris, only for the reason that they also speak Finnish. And yes !? What side does the Finns' intention (ridiculous, of course, but it was) take the side of the demarcations to capture Petrograd before the Germans push them away?
        1939 - what 30 thousand? Where did this figure come from? In 1939, only the regular Finnish army was about 260 thousand people. And together with Skyddskar (Finnish SS) it came out under half a million, which so exceeded the strength of the LenVO, initially involved with the foot in the war.
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 17 June 2020 07: 36 New
          +2
          Quote: Florian Geyer
          In 1918, no Leninians attacked Finland and sent nothing there.

          read, huh?
          Who sent the Finnish Red Guard (rebel) money, weapons, troops? And only after the demand of the owner of the Bolsheviks, Germany, to stop this, the Lenins tightened their tail
          Quote: Florian Geyer
          On the contrary, Russian troops and the fleet were withdrawn from Finland through the Brest Peace. Those who didn’t want or didn’t have time paid a price — the white Finns simply shot all the Russians who came across in spite of their political orientation. Since the Bolsheviks prudently dumped in St. Petersburg, it was mainly their opponents who came under the distribution, primarily the officers and their families. In the same Vyborg, the Finns piled up ramparts of executed Russian officers and their families.

          So recognized the independence of the Finns, Plyunov nv Russians there, who?
          Quote: Florian Geyer
          Borders and demarcations are empty talk. The separation took place within the administrative boundaries of the Finnish VK in the Republic of Ingushetia. Neither Petersburg nor Olonets provinces had anything to do with him.

          You have empty talk: Lenin meant one thing, the Finns, another.
          To do this, they stipulate boundaries BEFORE RECOGNITION.
          Quote: Florian Geyer
          But the appetites of the newly-minted great nation extended already to the Mordovians and the Mari

          the appetites of the Bolsheviks, all over the globe. AND?
          Quote: Florian Geyer
          1939 - what 30 thousand? Where did this figure come from? In 1939, only the regular Finnish army was about 260 thousand people.

          From ALL sources, Finnish, Soviet, foreign, and it is well known and is not disputed by anyone.
          This is the figure of the BEGINNING of the year, BEFORE Soviet ultimatums. AFTER them, it increased by the time the USSR attack TEN times, people were preparing, of course.
  • not main
    not main 16 June 2020 00: 33 New
    +2
    Quote: Olgovich
    Finland to them, no side.

    Oh well! And "Great Suomi" to the Urals? Actually, if you look at the Scandinavians, then either Germany's allies or occupied! As you can see, the choice is not rich!
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 16 June 2020 06: 14 New
      +2
      Quote: non-primary
      Oh well! And "Great Suomi" to the Urals?

      And "an army of 30 thousand and 30 PMA tanks against millions and tens of thousands of tanks?
      1. not main
        not main 16 June 2020 21: 51 New
        +1
        Quote: Olgovich
        Quote: non-primary
        Oh well! And "Great Suomi" to the Urals?

        And "an army of 30 thousand and 30 PMA tanks against millions and tens of thousands of tanks?

        And in alliance with the Wehrmacht?
      2. Florian geyer
        Florian geyer 16 June 2020 23: 04 New
        +1
        Enough already, what 30 thousand?
        And yes, Sweden had no territorial claims against the USSR
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 17 June 2020 07: 40 New
          +2
          Quote: Florian Geyer
          Enough already, what 30 thousand?

          DOCUMENTARY
          Quote: Florian Geyer
          And yes, Sweden had no territorial claims against the USSR

          lol laughing Dozens of Russian-Swedish wars to help you, as a result of which it has shrunk many times.
  • Doctor
    Doctor 15 June 2020 10: 14 New
    0
    Finland is a mistake, because they provided themselves with a strong enemy in WWII

    The introduction of the spacecraft into part of the territory of the Nazi-defeated Poland. Is it bad or good from a modern point of view?
    Good from all points of view, both then and today.

    It is a mistake with Finland, but not with Poland.

    You could stand up for the Poles. There would be allies now.
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 15 June 2020 11: 05 New
      +5
      Quote: Arzt
      It is a mistake with Finland, but not with Poland.

      Yes
      Quote: Arzt
      You could stand up for the Poles. There would be allies now.

      1. They were offered (before). They refused categorically.

      How can you stand up for those who are .... categorically against? Really, how could this be done?

      2. Would not be allies, such is our story
      Quote: Arzt
      The introduction of the spacecraft into part of the territory of the Nazi-defeated Poland. Is it bad or good from a modern point of view?

      Adopted and approved even by the West (then)

      That is unlikely.


      Churchill personally accepted and approved. October 1 1939 of the year :
      What Russian armies were to stand on this line, it was absolutely necessary for Russia's security against the Nazi threat. Be that as it may, this line exists, and created the Eastern Front, which Nazi Germany does not dare to attack. When Mr. Ribbentrop was called to Moscow last week, he had to find out and accept the fact that the implementation of Nazi plans in relation to the Baltic countries and Ukraine should be finally stopped.
      1. Doctor
        Doctor 15 June 2020 11: 19 New
        +1
        Churchill personally accepted and approved: October 1, 1939:

        Resigned. Because he knew how to look far.

        In general, everyone understood the point.

        TELEGRAM OF THE Plenipotentiary Representative of the USSR IN FRANCE i. 3. MOOD IN THE PEOPLE'S COMMISSARIAT OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS OF THE USSR
        18 September 1939 of
        Out of turn. Owls secretly
        Daladier has just invited me to his place. He began with the fact that “the situation is very serious” and that he sees a glaring contradiction with “previously declared neutrality” in the “striking all” actions of the USSR. The territory of the state, which was guaranteed neutrality, is engaged in troops ...

        TELEGRAM OF THE Plenipotentiary Representative of the USSR IN BELGIUM E.V. RUBININA TO THE PEOPLE'S COMMISSARIAT OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS OF THE USSR
        17 September 1939 of
        Ow. top secret
        The article “Truth” is interpreted as preparation for our occupation for the Western Belarus and Ukraine. Our pact with Germany was met with hostility by both the ruling circles and the public in the vast majority (not excluding the Flemings), set in favor of the Anglo-French ...

        Etc.
        1. Operator
          Operator 15 June 2020 12: 03 New
          +4
          What is the logical connection between the entry of Soviet troops into the territory of western Ukraine and Belarus on September 17, 1939 and the Soviet-German Non-aggression Treaty of August 23, 1939? laughing

          If the cunning frogs and Flemings saw it, this does not mean that there was such a connection - the USSR acted on the basis of a secret protocol unknown to the frogs and Flemings. It was possible to start screaming only ten days later - on September 28, 1939 after the signing of the Soviet-German Treaty of Friendship and Border.

          At the same time, other states of the world still had a baaaalsh question - what did Tommy and the paddling pool do from September 1 to September 17, 1939, when Germany alone destroyed Poland as their military ally?
          1. Doctor
            Doctor 15 June 2020 14: 01 New
            0
            At the same time, other states of the world still had a baaaalsh question - what did Tommy and the paddling pool do from September 1 to September 17, 1939, when Germany alone destroyed Poland as their military ally?

            Germany declared war on September 3.
            The Saarland offensive operation began on September 7th.
            The British began the transfer of troops to the mainland.

            Not all at once.
        2. Olgovich
          Olgovich 15 June 2020 12: 15 New
          +4
          Quote: Arzt
          Resigned. Because he knew how to look far.

          Exactly!

          And France did not mind.

          But what is there, but where did the Poles declare war?

          A-dumb .... request
  • Doctor
    Doctor 15 June 2020 10: 17 New
    0
    The introduction of the spacecraft into part of the territory of the Nazi-defeated Poland. Is it bad or good from a modern point of view?

    Adopted and approved even by the West (then)

    That is unlikely.
  • Aviator_
    Aviator_ 15 June 2020 08: 08 New
    0
    Somewhere after May 23, certain RMs come in, which cause shock in Moscow ...... As a result of the discussion, an urgent directive is sent to the headquarters of the ZabVO on April 25.

    Author, follow the text, unforgivable blunder.
    1. Krasnoyarsk
      Krasnoyarsk 15 June 2020 10: 01 New
      -21 qualifying.
      Quote: Aviator_
      Somewhere after May 23, certain RMs come in, which cause shock in Moscow ...... As a result of the discussion, an urgent directive is sent to the headquarters of the ZabVO on April 25.

      Author, follow the text, unforgivable blunder.

      Moreover, did the author personally observe the state of shock in Moscow? Or did the participant in the "state of shock" personally tell the author about his then state of health?
      This may be permissible in a novel, but not in a historical study.
      And the report of the People’s Commissar of Defense to Stalin, from, of unknown date, in May 41, falls into the Main Operational Directorate of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the USSR on March 29.03.1948, XNUMX !!!
      Further in the report, it is not known from which document, a piece was inserted in the text of the article supposedly corresponding to the report submitted to Stalin, and it was filed with corrections?
      Looking at all this, any credibility to the article disappears.
      1. ccsr
        ccsr 15 June 2020 14: 11 New
        -19 qualifying.
        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
        Moreover, did the author personally observe the state of shock in Moscow? Or did the participant in the "state of shock" personally tell the author about his then state of health?

        The author of the statues, as always in his repertoire, is the main thing to lie better, in the hope that the majority will not notice his fraud.
        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
        And the report of the People’s Commissar of Defense to Stalin, from, of unknown date, in May 41, falls into the Main Operational Directorate of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the USSR on March 29.03.1948, XNUMX !!!

        It was just a draft of a memorandum, which was not even registered with the Stalin secretariat, and it lay for many years as a rolling document, and only in 1948 it was registered to be sewn up. The fact that this document was not reported to Stalin is obvious from the corrections of the numbers - no one would have carried such a paper to the leader for the report.
        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
        Looking at all this, any credibility to the article disappears.

        The author of the articles can be trusted at a stretch, because he does not provide links to sources, for example, citing some fragment of a map taken from the alternative site, and believes that everyone should believe that this is the original document. I'm not saying that he is engaged in fraud for any reason, and here is how it looks in the author’s article:
        In the RU report on 20-00 22.6.41 the German group, concentrated to the border, estimated at 167 ... 173 divisions. The report also refers to the possible approach of new divisions from the west to the border. This indirectly indicates that, until June 22, the RU and the General Staff evaluated the German grouping on the western border (in the event of a war with our country) in the amount of about 180 divisions.

        In fact, in the RU report dated 22.06.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX, other numbers are indicated that, by addition, give a different result:

        The total number of enemy groups is determined by:
        a) on the North-Western Front - 29 divisions, of which 4-5 tank and 5 motorized
        b) on the Western Front, in the Warsaw District - 31 divisions, 21 of them are infantry, 1 motorized, 4 tank and 1 cavalry
        at) on the South-Western Front (to Slovakia) - 48 divisions, 5 of them are motorized and 6 tank
        In addition, in Slovakia and Carpathian Ukraine the number of German troops is 13-15 divisions. In Romania, 33-35 divisions, of which 4 are tank, 11 are motorized and 1 are mountain infantry.
        l.8
        Enemy front reserves in the Czestochow region, Breslau (now Wroclaw), Moravian Ostrava up to 7 divisions.
        The reserves of the High Command at 20.6 consist of 17-20 divisions located in the central regions of Germany ...
        CONCLUSION
        Opponent for 22.6. He brought significant forces into battle, namely: 37-39 infantry, 5 motorized, 8 tank, and a total of 50-52 divisions. However, this makes up only about 30% of the enemy’s forces concentrated to the front ...
        Head of the Intelligence Directorate of the General Staff of the Red Army
        Lieutenant General Golikov (signature)

        Given the fact that in Romania there were only 7 German divisions, as indicated in the summary of the RU, and which the author incorrectly calculated along with the Romanian
        South Front
        (The strength of the Romanian army is estimated by the drafters of the document in 30 infantry and 4 cavalry divisions, 4 mountain infantry brigades, 2-3 motorized brigades, 2 tank regiments. The number of German troops located in Romania is estimated at 4 infantry, 2 motorized and 1 tank divisions).
        it turns out that the total number of German divisions, taking into account the reserve, was estimated as 157, and not 167-173, as the author of the article writes.
        This is how this "researcher" is engaged in falsifying our history, who can only be believed by illiterate people, which has been noticed not only by me.
        1. AsmyppoL
          16 June 2020 05: 10 New
          12
          Quote: ccsr
          Quote: Krasnoyarsk
          Moreover, did the author personally observe the state of shock in Moscow? Or did the participant in the "state of shock" personally tell the author about his then state of health?

          The author of the statues, as always in his repertoire, is the main thing to lie better, in the hope that the majority will not notice his fraud.
          Quote: Krasnoyarsk
          And the report of the People’s Commissar of Defense to Stalin, from, of unknown date, in May 41, falls into the Main Operational Directorate of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the USSR on March 29.03.1948, XNUMX !!!

          It was just a draft of a memorandum, which was not even registered with the Stalin secretariat, and it lay for many years as a rolling document, and only in 1948 it was registered to be sewn up. The fact that this document was not reported to Stalin is obvious from the corrections of the numbers - no one would have carried such a paper to the leader for the report.
          Quote: Krasnoyarsk
          Looking at all this, any credibility to the article disappears.

          The author of the articles can be trusted at a stretch, because he does not provide links to sources, for example, citing some fragment of a map taken from the alternative site, and believes that everyone should believe that this is the original document. I'm not saying that he is engaged in fraud for any reason, and here is how it looks in the author’s article:
          In the RU report on 20-00 22.6.41 the German group, concentrated to the border, estimated at 167 ... 173 divisions. The report also refers to the possible approach of new divisions from the west to the border. This indirectly indicates that, until June 22, the RU and the General Staff evaluated the German grouping on the western border (in the event of a war with our country) in the amount of about 180 divisions.

          In fact, in the RU report dated 22.06.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX, other numbers are indicated that, by addition, give a different result:

          The total number of enemy groups is determined by:
          a) on the North-Western Front - 29 divisions, of which 4-5 tank and 5 motorized
          b) on the Western Front, in the Warsaw District - 31 divisions, 21 of them are infantry, 1 motorized, 4 tank and 1 cavalry
          at) on the South-Western Front (to Slovakia) - 48 divisions, 5 of them are motorized and 6 tank
          In addition, in Slovakia and Carpathian Ukraine the number of German troops is 13-15 divisions. In Romania, 33-35 divisions, of which 4 are tank, 11 are motorized and 1 are mountain infantry.
          l.8
          Enemy front reserves in the Czestochow region, Breslau (now Wroclaw), Moravian Ostrava up to 7 divisions.
          The reserves of the High Command at 20.6 consist of 17-20 divisions located in the central regions of Germany ...
          CONCLUSION
          Opponent for 22.6. He brought significant forces into battle, namely: 37-39 infantry, 5 motorized, 8 tank, and a total of 50-52 divisions. However, this makes up only about 30% of the enemy’s forces concentrated to the front ...
          Head of the Intelligence Directorate of the General Staff of the Red Army
          Lieutenant General Golikov (signature)

          Given the fact that in Romania there were only 7 German divisions, as indicated in the summary of the RU, and which the author incorrectly calculated along with the Romanian
          South Front
          (The strength of the Romanian army is estimated by the drafters of the document in 30 infantry and 4 cavalry divisions, 4 mountain infantry brigades, 2-3 motorized brigades, 2 tank regiments. The number of German troops located in Romania is estimated at 4 infantry, 2 motorized and 1 tank divisions).
          it turns out that the total number of German divisions, taking into account the reserve, was estimated as 157, and not 167-173, as the author of the article writes.
          This is how this "researcher" is engaged in falsifying our history, who can only be believed by illiterate people, which has been noticed not only by me.

          And what are you deceiving Mr. Milchakov?
          Why didn’t you give data on German divisions in Romania? The summary has a whole section about this.
          Arrived 5 German divisions from Bulgaria and became German divisions in Romania 33-35 ...
          More than a quarter of GERMAN divisions concentrated near the border. And where were the German divisions in Romania according to intelligence?
          According to the report of the General Staff of the General Staff of May 31 and June 15, 17 German divisions were in Moldova and North. Dobrudge. Of these, 6 td and md.
          The documents of the OdVO intelligence department (in the area of ​​its responsibility) as of June 17 contain 16 GERMAN divisions.
          According to the documents of the southern front after the outbreak of war, there are 900 German tanks.
          Also, not a single intelligence document says a word that reserve divisions located in central Germany are intended for war with the USSR. I honestly do not care what you write, but if you give a quote it will be curious. Maybe not all is lost yet?
          1. ccsr
            ccsr 16 June 2020 13: 51 New
            -17 qualifying.
            Quote: AsmyppoL
            Arrived 5 German divisions from Bulgaria and became German divisions in Romania 33-35 ...

            As always, you're lying, not embarrassed, because the intelligence report indicates the exact number of German divisions in Romania, and the report was signed by Golikov:
            The number of German troops located in Romania is estimated at 4 infantry, 2 motorized and 1 tank divisions
            )
            Well, the fact that you read the bulletins as it is beneficial for you, by scamming with numbers, was noticed by more than one I, because you have been repeatedly convicted of fraud. By the way, you lied that the last RU intelligence was No. 5 dated June 15, but in fact Golikov in this report dated June 22 indicated that the intelligence data for June 20 was confirmed:
            As a result of hostilities for the day 22.6.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX received factual evidence on 20.6 about the following enemy grouping, located directly on the border with the USSR

            So you’re lying all the time, not me, and the intelligence from June 22 proved it.
    2. AsmyppoL
      15 June 2020 10: 57 New
      +1
      I'm sorry ...
      You are absolutely right
  • strannik1985
    strannik1985 15 June 2020 08: 21 New
    +1
    No one in the spacecraft leadership

    Author, what are you talking about? What kind of armada? By June 22, units and formations of the cover armies were located in regiments and battalions in the RPD at a distance of 0-60 (some up to 100) km from the border.
    1. AsmyppoL
      15 June 2020 10: 59 New
      +5
      Dear Wanderer, according to intelligence on June 17-21, where were the German troops? For example, tank units in places of future attacks by tank groups? :-)
      1. strannik1985
        strannik1985 15 June 2020 12: 40 New
        -1
        Dear Wanderer

        What is the difference if SD 04/400 only mobilizes completely in a day, and MKs begin to receive equipment from n / a on the second day of mobilization?
  • Mustachioed Georgian
    Mustachioed Georgian 15 June 2020 08: 52 New
    0

    Heavy td, in contrast to which our KV-3 tanks are created


    KV 3 as it was not particularly observed at the front at 41
  • AsmyppoL
    15 June 2020 11: 06 New
    10
    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    Quote: Aviator_
    Somewhere after May 23, certain RMs come in, which cause shock in Moscow ...... As a result of the discussion, an urgent directive is sent to the headquarters of the ZabVO on April 25.

    Author, follow the text, unforgivable blunder.

    Moreover, did the author personally observe the state of shock in Moscow? Or did the participant in the "state of shock" personally tell the author about his then state of health?
    This may be permissible in a novel, but not in a historical study.
    And the report of the People’s Commissar of Defense to Stalin, from, of unknown date, in May 41, falls into the Main Operational Directorate of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the USSR on March 29.03.1948, XNUMX !!!
    Further in the report, it is not known from which document, a piece was inserted in the text of the article supposedly corresponding to the report submitted to Stalin, and it was filed with corrections?
    Looking at all this, any credibility to the article disappears.

    Still, he stopped in shock.
    Firstly, this is the author’s version or perhaps an idea (after all, evidence has not yet been submitted). Therefore, as in the novel ...
    Secondly, what else can I call it? Since the fall of 1940, the army will be redeployed to the western theater. The same is confirmed by the directives of April 26, in the draft note later on May 15, in the directives of May 13 and suddenly Azerbaijan for the 16th army. Something quite significant happened if the army was urgently thrown into another theater of operations, significantly reducing transportation with Central Asia ...
    This is true for me, but it may not be - I agree with you on this
    1. AsmyppoL
      16 June 2020 04: 58 New
      18
      Well, first of all, Krasnoyarsk, you are engaged in juggling the facts ...
      There is no text in the article about the submission of the document to Stalin. Very reminiscent of Kozinkin’s manner of attributing his opponent’s words, and then making fun of them ...
      Only in the head of a fraudster could the text be born that this document was submitted to Stalin with corrections ...
      An intelligent person would understand that the performer was given the task of preparing the draft of such a document. He was promptly presented with intelligence on May 15, which could only fall into operational control earlier than May 16-17.
      T.E. Whoever instructed to prepare this project could address the summary directly to the contractor or the contractor was one of the department heads ...
      The second one. No matter where the document was. The important thing is that it reflects the opinion of a group of operational control officers who decide the planning of operations and the concentration of spacecraft troops.
      The third. Only Malandin or his superior could give instructions on the project to apply for the posts of Stalin, Tymoshenko and Zhukov (even without a signature)
      1. ccsr
        ccsr 16 June 2020 14: 03 New
        -17 qualifying.
        Quote: AsmyppoL
        The second one. No matter where the document was. The important thing is that it reflects the opinion of a group of operational control officers who decide the planning of operations and the concentration of spacecraft troops.

        Lies. Such a document is usually developed and signed by the author himself, who can use only his opinion in it, because he will personally be responsible for the entire report and the consequences. The opinion of a group of subordinate officers does not play a role for the higher command - it can be taken into account, or it can be ignored, and this is decided by the one who writes the handwritten document himself. But you burn further, verbiage - many will laugh at your ideas about the army, and the next ridiculous versions of the preparation of documents.
    2. ccsr
      ccsr 20 June 2020 11: 19 New
      -17 qualifying.
      Quote: AsmyppoL
      The same is confirmed by the directives of April 26, in the draft note later on May 15, in the directives of May 13 and suddenly Azerbaijan for the 16th army. Something very significant happened if the army was urgently thrown into another theater of operations, significantly reducing transportation with Central Asia ...

      This lie is refuted not only by Zhukov, but also by other participants in those events that directly indicate why the 16th Army was planned.
      Here is what the candidate of historical sciences showed about the withdrawal of the armies of the RGC, the head of the department of the history of wars and military art of the Military Academy of the General Staff of the RF Armed Forces, Major General I.P. Makar in the article “From the experience of planning the strategic deployment of the USSR Armed Forces in case of war with Germany and direct preparation for repelling aggression” (Military History Journal No. 6, 2006, p. 3-9):
      “In April - May 1941, the People’s Commissariat of Defense and the General Staff began with the consent of the government to covertly mobilize military reserves under the guise of large training camps. The goal was to strengthen military units and formations in 14 military districts. In total, over 802 thousand enlisted personnel were called up for training camps before the war, which amounted to 24 percent. its total number according to the mobilization plan MP-41. This event allowed to strengthen half of all rifle divisions, intended mainly for operations in the west. At the same time, the units and formations of other arms and branches of the Armed Forces were replenished.
      A very important decision was made to advance the troops of the second strategic echelon — the armies of the reserve of the High Command. The formation of this echelon at the Western theater of operations began on May 13, 1941, when, with the permission of I.V. Stalin’s General Staff ordered the nomination of four armies formed in the internal districts: the 22nd from the Ural Military District to the Velikiye Luk region, the 21st from the Volga Military District to the Gomel region, the 19th from the North Caucasian Military District to the area of ​​the White Church and the 16th - from the Trans-Baikal Military District to the Proskurov area. The 25th Rifle Corps from the Kharkov Military District, which was subordinated to the 19th Army, was also flown west. ”
      The city of Proskurov, it has been Khmelnitsky since 1954, and Shepetovka is a city, a district center that is part of the Khmelnitsky region of modern ...
  • Operator
    Operator 15 June 2020 11: 37 New
    -19 qualifying.
    The People's Commissar of Railways Kovalev expressed himself absolutely unambiguously - the tricky route of the echelons with the 16th army was connected with a request from Germany about the purpose of the redeployment of Soviet troops from east to west and the desire of the high command of the Red Army to hide the fact of building up forces in the western direction.

    Therefore, the intrigue with the intention of the High Command of the Red Army (supposedly misinformed by Soviet intelligence) to attack Iran and score on Germany, spun in the articles of the author, is contained only in his head.
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 15 June 2020 14: 50 New
      -20 qualifying.
      Quote: Operator
      Therefore, the intrigue with the intention of the High Command of the Red Army (supposedly misinformed by Soviet intelligence) to attack Iran and score on Germany, spun in the articles of the author, is contained only in his head.

      This enchanting storyteller squeezed three articles on VO about the 16th Army, piled up ten barrels of prisoners, and in the end he himself brought a text that completely refutes all his inventions. Yes, even Rezun and Zakoretsky would not have thought of such a thing - this is what "new" thinking from the Promised Land means.
  • BAI
    BAI 15 June 2020 12: 42 New
    -20 qualifying.
    When will VO end (if it ends) irresponsible attitude to illustrative material? One author attaches to the events of 1939 a photo with portraits of Brezhnev and posters "We will fulfill the plans of 1976," the other uses photo 42 TBR for the second article in a row, which has nothing to do with the events described. The author himself named a number of books, for example, A.A. Lobachev. "Difficult roads". Well, take a photo from there, even though the same Lukin M.F.

    Yes, in this book some portrait photos. But at least they are related to the topic.
  • Operator
    Operator 15 June 2020 14: 06 New
    +3
    Quote: Arzt
    Saar offensive operation began on September 7

    Well, what did the paddling pools "stepped on" there? laughing
  • VS
    VS 15 June 2020 14: 06 New
    -23 qualifying.
    "" two parts will be offered a version of the purpose of moving the 16th A "

    why didn’t I see this version - WHY moved the WHOLE 16th Army - from the armies of the RGK to the GSh operplan and ON THE SAME DAYS when OTHER armies of the RGK were withdrawn to the WEST ?? ((SO why did you enter THIS specific and and the other armies of the Red Army in the West?))
    officers of the VNU General Staff state, like the same Marshals Zakharov or Zhukov - in anticipation of an early attack by Germany)))
  • VS
    VS 15 June 2020 14: 12 New
    -23 qualifying.
    Quote: Operator
    The People's Commissar of Railways Kovalev expressed himself absolutely unambiguously - the tricky route of the echelons with the 16th army was connected with a request from Germany about the purpose of the redeployment of Soviet troops from east to west and the desire of the high command of the Red Army to hide the fact of building up forces in the western direction.

    Therefore, the intrigue with the intention of the High Command of the Red Army (supposedly misinformed by Soviet intelligence) to attack Iran and score on Germany, spun in the articles of the author, is contained only in his head.

    BRAVO)) This anonymous man got his nonsense sucked from his finger and about nothing))) Rezun rests ((
  • VS
    VS 15 June 2020 14: 18 New
    -23 qualifying.
    "Having concluded the Agreement on non-aggression with Japan, our government managed to knock Japan out of the ranks of hostile countries. To secure our eastern border and, if necessary, transfer part of the divisions to the European part of the country. "

    CURVE OF ANONYMS TOUCHES) WELL TELL YOU - THERE WASN'T THE SSR Non-aggression Treaty with JAPAN in April of the 41st !!)) WELL THERE WOULD not even kill yourself against the wall))) There was - - THE CONTRACT OF NEUTRALITY and it is VARIOUS of its own The agreement !!!)) And it means further nonsense that the Soviet Socialist Republic is serious, only by the fact of the agreement did it protect itself from war on TWO fronts - it makes no sense))) Because the USSR did NOT achieve the goal of protecting itself with this agreement !!
    Anonymous - YOU FUCK here you spread your bullshit if you do not read criticism?))))
  • VS
    VS 15 June 2020 14: 20 New
    -22 qualifying.
    "" Taking into account the enemy's grouping of 180 ... 200 divisions in the General Staff and in the western military units, since May 1941, "Covering plans ..."


    LYING!! PP in the districts were already on May 41st)) And in May - on May 4-5 and 14 - the districts were given directives to work out defense plans first of all!))
    1. Operator
      Operator 15 June 2020 15: 47 New
      -1
      As of June 22, 1941, the following planning documents were in the USSR Armed Forces:

      The updated plan for the strategic deployment of the Armed Forces of the Soviet Union in the West and in the East of March 11, 1941
      http://army.armor.kiev.ua/hist/stratplan-3-41.html

      Action plans of troops in cover on the territory of each of the western districts of March 1941.

      Detailed action plans of troops in cover on the territory of each of the western districts of June 20, 1941
      http://army.armor.kiev.ua/hist/stratplan-zapovo.shtml

      Plus, plans for the transfer of troops of the Reserve of the Red Army High Command from internal military districts to the Western Dvina-Dnepr deployment line, the implementation of which began in May 1941.

      In these documents, the People's Commissar of Defense and the Chief of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the Soviet Union of Soviet Socialist Republics with the utmost uniqueness called the tasks, composition, strength and deployment of troops of Germany and its allies as of the first half of 1941.
      According to the author, contrary to Soviet intelligence laughing
      1. VS
        VS 15 June 2020 20: 03 New
        -17 qualifying.
        Quote: Operator
        As of June 22, 1941, the following planning documents were in the USSR Armed Forces:

        The updated plan for the strategic deployment of the Armed Forces of the Soviet Union in the West and in the East of March 11, 1941

        it won’t work - this eats historical garbage)) Zhukov’s dreams and no more))) This plan was not put into effect - it remained a draft of the General Staff))
        What were the plans in the General Staff as workers? see appendices 15 and 16 in lessons and conclusions)) The texts of these options themselves are not declassified until now)))

        Quote: Operator
        Action plans of troops in cover on the territory of each of the western districts of March 1941.

        Detailed action plans of troops in cover on the territory of each of the western districts of June 20, 1941

        not this way. )) By May 1, their own Cover Plans were worked out in the districts - up to divisions, then the districts threw off defense plans that did not go beyond the district headquarters and were not approved by the General Staff)) i.e. and there remained the PP worked out in units by May 4 and red packets were opened on them at 5 o’clock in the morning on June 14))


        Quote: Operator
        plans for the transfer of troops of the Reserve of the Red Army High Command from the internal military districts to the Western Dvina-Dnepr deployment line, the implementation of which began in May 1941.

        the withdrawal of the armies of the RGK was on the GS operative plan in case of war ..



        Quote: Operator
        In these documents, the People's Commissar of Defense and the Chief of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the Soviet Union of Soviet Socialist Republics with the utmost uniqueness called the tasks, composition, strength and deployment of troops of Germany and its allies as of the first half of 1941.
        According to the author, contrary to Soviet intelligence

        in general, yes)))
        1. Operator
          Operator 15 June 2020 20: 57 New
          +9
          Quote: V.S.
          Dreams of Zhukov

          This is not about our plans for warfare, developed from March to June 1941, but about our assessments of the enemy, outlined in the plans - did Zhukov personally come up with all of them (having scored on the data of Soviet intelligence), and even passionately dream of the maximum number and shrinking deployment time of aoysk adversary? laughing

          The plans of the General Staff and Military District were approved by higher military commanders - it does not matter, since the plans are valuable data (right / wrong - no matter) about the enemy, which guided the command of the Red Army.
  • VS
    VS 15 June 2020 14: 23 New
    -23 qualifying.
    "" The divisions of the armies of the RGK were in their places of deployment until the corresponding instructions were received. The exception was a few compounds from the composition of the 19th A (SKVO). It should be noted that the troops of the RGK are not only armies relocated from the internal districts, but also corps that were stationed in the territory of the western military units. For example, the 2nd MK and the 7th SC, which were located on the territory of the OdVO. ""

    ON MAY 13, these RGK armies received GSh directives on withdrawing their formations to the western districts - according to the GSh plan)) But our anonymous author is still trying to impose nonsense that the attack was not expected and the RGK type armies were not going to go anywhere)))
  • VS
    VS 15 June 2020 14: 30 New
    -22 qualifying.
    "" From May to June 1941, the enlistment personnel are called up for training camps, most of which are sent to replenish the SD, located in the internal districts. ""

    the anonymous author is trying to prove with this stupid phrase that it’s not the frontier sd that replenished the attack, they didn’t wait, but this is nonsense)))

    Miracle - open the PP and see - WHY are they written at all and FOR WHAT do we need divisions in BORDER districts for?)) I’ll tell you - to ensure the MOBILIZATION AND DEPLOYMENT of the main forces of the army)) As the second echelons of the regional districts and its armies of the RGK including))
    For stupid anonymous batans climbing into the jungle in which they are not in the tooth with their feet - - Zhukov already in March brought the BORDER RADIATORS that they SHOULD provide the rest of the army with time to mobilize in case of war - up to "shats close to the shats of wartime," up to 12 thousand on average)) so that they could keep the enemy on the border WITHOUT mobilization)) Because in the plans of the General Staff it was scored - the border SD MUST keep the enemy on the border for 10-15 days and thus ensure the mobilization of the rest of the army))
  • VS
    VS 15 June 2020 15: 00 New
    -24 qualifying.
    If a person whom they pointed out more than once to his mistake repeats like a stubborn ass - that in April of the 41st USSR and Japan signed the Non-aggression Treaty - then HOW to call it - an underdeveloped nerd who according to FIG - Neutrality or non-aggression, or - he is a CONSCIOUS falsifier, which under their own nonsense drives the facts? (((
  • VS
    VS 15 June 2020 15: 06 New
    -23 qualifying.
    "" They believe her, and Moscow is trying to calculate their response. "

    YES, FROM WHERE DO YOU KNOW = = WHO WHAT YOU BELIEVED did not believe in the Kremlin?)))
  • VS
    VS 15 June 2020 15: 08 New
    -20 qualifying.
    "Heavy etc., in contrast to which our KV-3 tanks are created"

    MIRACLE - KV-3 WAS NOT CREATED to fight the mythical German heavy tanks)) If cho - the same German T-4s were classified as heavy in those days)))
  • VS
    VS 15 June 2020 15: 12 New
    -24 qualifying.
    "" No one in the leadership of the spacecraft at this time can even imagine that about 125 German divisions (and not 180) available at the border without airborne divisions, without heavy equipment, without creating shock mobile groups are capable of breaking the border armada KA ...
    "
    Anonymous miracle - name the sources of YOUR discovery - to whom did it occur to the Red Army that didn’t occur to him)))

    your mother - men are moderators - for you, the uniqueness of the articles is only in the fact that - THE MORE delirium the better the article or what? (((You are ready to drag all kinds of stupid and deceitful shit to IN - lowering it below the plinth to the level of the yellow garbage can - only would "uniqueness" observe "(((
  • VS
    VS 15 June 2020 15: 15 New
    -24 qualifying.
    11.3.41 in the "General Staff's Strategic Deployment Plan ..." provides for the presence of up to 38,5 divisions, taking into account the redeployment of three divisions from the Siberian Military District. "2

    MIRACLE - this dock is from a series of HISTORICAL rubbish and "to analyze" it - DO NOT RESPECT YOURSELF)) FURTHER Malandin's office he never left - teach the ignorant materiel)))
  • VS
    VS 15 June 2020 15: 23 New
    -23 qualifying.
    "" After May 17, the General Staff is preparing a draft document, according to which 27 divisions remain in the Far Eastern Fleet and the ZabVO (brigades, of which there were five, were not taken into account in the troop count).
    ""
    Why are you lying that stupidly and gone? ((((The so-called plan of May 15 - in the plan of which it is indicated that they were written taking into account the data for May 15 - WRITING TO START in GS at the end of April ischo !!))) Just after the treaty of Tokyo, the NEUTRALITY Treaty was signed !! Therefore, in this regard, there is NO Japan as a threat to the USSR - a likely adversary !!
    BUT!! This plan is no more than historical rubbish and for HIM there was NOTHING in the General Staff and the troops too !!) THIS showed Chekun dash when else !!))
  • VS
    VS 15 June 2020 15: 24 New
    -23 qualifying.
    "" Somewhere after May 23, some RMs arrive, which cause shock in Moscow. Not "

    SO WHO AND WHEN experienced a certain shock in Moscow then?)) A spiritualist damn ...))
  • VS
    VS 15 June 2020 15: 28 New
    -23 qualifying.
    "" There is the only evidence that the 16th Army was not sent to Transcaucasia. People's Commissar of Railways I. V. Kovalyov spoke about this:

    The fascist command was already completing the concentration of its three main military groups on the Soviet border, the German Ministry of Foreign Affairs presented a note to our leadership and asked for an explanation: why was the Soviet 16th Army from Transbaikalia being transported west by rail?
    Stalin ordered Marshal Timoshenko to temporarily turn the echelons of the 16th Army south and inform Berlin that the army was heading to the Persian border in case the British tried to strike from India through Persia. It is unlikely that they believed in Berlin, but they achieved their goal - one of our armies was detained on the way. I learned about this case from Mehlis ... "

    Well EVERYTHING? CAN anonymous calm down and stop being wise on the topic - WHERE did the 16th Army go?)))
  • VS
    VS 15 June 2020 15: 33 New
    -23 qualifying.
    To the west is not necessarily to the western VOs. It could also be an inner district bordering on the western VO. ""

    open MIRACLE REFERENCE TO VATUTIN FROM JUNE 13 TO WHICH the card DATED is attached - MAY 15 !!
    AND THERE ARE YOU ... (To call an ignoramus an ignoramus - offended go))) and you will see - WHERE did this army originally go - WHERE did you plan to bring it out realistically - by which you filled up the delirium in full and showed yourself BOLVAN from the heart)))

    You turn the brains on a miracle - FOR Horseradish to drive an army from Trans-Baikal - like to fight with TURKEY - but at the same time, another army - the 19th - in THESE DAYS TO KNOW --- TO UKRAINE?)))
  • The comment was deleted.
  • VS
    VS 15 June 2020 15: 43 New
    -24 qualifying.
    Quote: AsmyppoL
    This is true for me, but it may not be -

    but why the hell did you write an article if I myself am stupidly not ready to give an answer to a simple question - SO WHERE AND WHY did the 16 army go if OTHER MULTIPLE armies at the same time went to THESE DAYS to the Western borders and the 19th from Rostov from where it is stupid than 16- th from Transbaikalia to get to Georgia - goes to KOVO))) ??))
    You wrote an anonym only for the sake of writing something - such as something unintelligible and absurd farted and then there grass does not grow?))
    1. AsmyppoL
      15 June 2020 16: 02 New
      10
      I have long known about your mental abilities - they do not correspond to the person who studied the documents for 12 years ...
      If you are not able to understand that Vatutin’s certificate confirms the fact of sending the 15th army to ZakVO. And the 19th Army was unable to solve the task of the army from ZabVO.
      You need to think more, literally Oleg Yuryevich Kozinkin ...
  • VS
    VS 15 June 2020 15: 47 New
    -21 qualifying.
    Quote: ccsr
    Quote: Operator
    Therefore, the intrigue with the intention of the High Command of the Red Army (supposedly misinformed by Soviet intelligence) to attack Iran and score on Germany, spun in the articles of the author, is contained only in his head.

    This enchanting storyteller squeezed three articles on VO about the 16th Army, piled up ten barrels of prisoners, and in the end he himself brought a text that completely refutes all his inventions. Yes, even Rezun and Zakoretsky would not have thought of such a thing - this is what "new" thinking from the Promised Land means.

    but this nonsense is so "unique" for the "owners" that it's just horror))) They themselves lowered themselves to the level of a network garbage can - with such delusional articles and, for YEARS, they spread this nonsense disgracing themselves in the first place !!))
    After all, these authors are ANONYMS !! And if no one spits out frank lies in the face of their faces for the stupidity of aphids, but the "owners" of the VO - they have names - and so they dishonor with such publications (((
  • VS
    VS 15 June 2020 20: 12 New
    -20 qualifying.
    Quote: AsmyppoL
    I have long known about your mental abilities - they do not correspond to the person who studied the documents for 12 years ...
    If you are not able to understand what Vatutin's certificate confirms the fact that the 15th Army was sent to ZakVO. And the 19th Army was unable to solve the task of the army from ZabVO.
    You need to think more, literally Oleg Yuryevich Kozinkin ...

    I’ll call you ILIOT - go and get upset (((
    Well, if those are so impatient to stay in the role of sadomaso - SEE the ignorant ANONYMOUS))

    "" REFERENCE OF June 13.06, 1941 ON THE DEPLOYMENT OF THE ARMED FORCES OF THE USSR IN THE CASE OF WAR IN THE WEST {203 - TsAMO, f. 16A, op. 2951, d. 236, l. 65-69}
    I. LAND TROOPS

    In total, the USSR has 303 divisions: SD - 198, TD - 61, MD - 31, CD - 13, Cap - 94, AP RGK - 74, VDK - 5, Prtbr - 10.
    For deployment on the western borders
    The fronts (without formations located in the Crimea) have 186 divisions, of which: SD - 120, TD - 40, MD - 20, CD - 6, AP RGK - 53, VDK - 5, Prtbr - 10. Northern Front - 22 divisions, of which: SD - 16, TD - 4, MD - 2 and OSBR - 1. The North-Western Front - 23 divisions, of which: SD - 17, TD - 4, MD - 2 and OSBR - 1.
    The Western Front - 44 divisions, of which: SD - 24, TD - 12, MD - B, CD - 2. The Southwest Front - 97 divisions, of which: SD - 63, TD - 20, MD - 10, CD - 4 (without connections located in the Crimea).
    The composition of the South-Western Front includes:
    - KOVO - 58 divisions, of which: SD - 32, TD - 16, MD - 8, CD - 2;
    - FEVO (without formations located in Crimea) - 19 divisions, of which: sd - 11, td - 4, md - 2, cd - 2;
    - PRIVO - sd - 7:
    - HVO - sd - 7;
    - OrVO - sd - 6.
    [b] High Command Reserve Army

    22A (UrVO) - beyond the Western Front. Only 9 divisions, of which: sd - b, td - 2, md - 1. The composition of 22A includes all six sd UrBO and 21 mk MBO.
    16A (ZabVO) - beyond the South-Western Front. Only 12 divisions, of which: sd - 8, td - 3, md - 1. The army includes:
    - 6 divisions from ZabVO, TD - 3, MD - 1, SD - 2;
    - 1 md from OrVO (217 SD);
    - 5 divisions from MBO (41 SK - 118, 235, 144 sd; 20 SK - 160, 137 sd).
    19A (North Caucasian Military District) - beyond the Southwestern Front. Only 11 divisions, of which: sd - 8, td - 2, md - 1. The army includes:
    - five SD from the North Caucasian Military District;
    - sd - 3, td - 2 and md - 1 from the HVO.

    In total, there are 218 divisions on the western border, of which: sd - 142, td - 47, md - 23, cd - 6, VDK - 5, prtbr - 10.
    ........
    On the rest (secondary) parts of the state border
    A total of 66 divisions, of which: sd - 43, td - 10, md - 6, cd - 7 and osbr - 1, mbbr - 1. These forces are distributed as follows:
    ArkhVO - sd - 1;
    Crimea - 3 divisions, of which: sd - 2, cd - 1;
    SKVO - sd - 1 on the Black Sea coast;
    ZakVO and SKVO - 20 divisions, of which: SD - 12, TD - 4, MD - 2, CD - 2;
    SAVO - 10 divisions, of which: sd - 4, td - 2, md - 1, cd - 3:

    ""

    now run up and kill yourself against the wall - anonymous))) Well, I’m talking to the bar .. I don’t go around where you are the BAR .. full)))
  • VS
    VS 15 June 2020 22: 24 New
    -19 qualifying.
    Quote: Operator
    Quote: V.S.
    Dreams of Zhukov

    This is not about our plans for warfare, developed from March to June 1941, but about our assessments of the enemy, outlined in the plans - did Zhukov personally come up with all of them (having scored on the data of Soviet intelligence), and even passionately dream of the maximum number and shrinking deployment time of aoysk adversary? laughing

    The plans of the General Staff and Military District were approved by higher military commanders - it does not matter, since the plans are valuable data (right / wrong - no matter) about the enemy, which guided the command of the Red Army.

    German forces were assessed back in August 40 — see appendices 15 and 16 in the lessons — how many Germans will be able to stand against the USSR as much as possible and where the main Germans will be able to beat)) And HOW Germans knew how much more they won in the General Staff) )))
  • VS
    VS 15 June 2020 22: 33 New
    -22 qualifying.
    Quote: AsmyppoL
    Vatutin's certificate confirms the fact that the 15th Army was sent to ZakVO.

    I hope you're talking about the 16th army here or where?)))
    stupid miracle - Vatutin's certificate was written on June 13, but the map to it was dated May 15 !!!)) Already on MAY 15 it was decided in NPO and General Staff WHERE 16 Lukin's army will go - from ZABVO - TO UKRAINE !! And why did she shy so strangely — then to Asia or something like in Transcaucasia ??) Look at the bar .. what’s in his memoirs that was written by the People’s Commissar of Railways IV Kovalev))

    Do you want a bar..tan become a new Rezunov or Osokin - sympathize))) Well, you puffed out the runoff of time .. cho you composed there and even threatened to amuse the people with the 4th part on the topic WHERE the army went there 16 - like to fight with Turkey because what type of STALIN thought that there will be a war with Turkey and not Germany, and then there’s a bummer ((FACTS as with .. as a stubborn thing show - oops ... You shouldn’t let bubbles in (((
    in general - go and kill yourself against the wall - at the same time change the donkeys yourself (((where are you from ... anonymous bad guys ... climb that (((don’t take care of yourself (((
    1. Operator
      Operator 15 June 2020 23: 14 New
      -25 qualifying.
      No need to offend the author - it is likely that he is only in the line of duty of a full-time employee of the censorship department of AMAN (responsible for conducting propaganda) laughing
      1. ccsr
        ccsr 16 June 2020 18: 11 New
        -17 qualifying.
        Quote: Operator
        he is only in the line of duty of a full-time employee of the censorship department of AMAN (responsible for conducting propaganda)

        Yes, it is unlikely that such an illiterate would be taken, he carries too many nonsense in his articles, especially since his lies are visible with the naked eye - you yourself saw it. True, the thought creeps in that this is really some kind of propaganda work, which is paid for by foreign agents, and such anonymous authors as Eugene and a certain Madame aKtoR, constantly acting in conjunction, throw false articles on Military Review, and then disappear somewhere. This current apparently did not fully work out the order, but that madame posted 24 articles here in 2017-2018. and evaporated. They have a team of claqueurs, judging by how dashingly they minus opponents, but no one advocates for the author's defense, realizing that they themselves cannot say anything. And if most of the authors of forum articles do not hide their name and surname, then these paid liars will never reveal their names, and apparently there is a reason. So perhaps you are right, hinting where this "historian" Eaugenius came from, though now he has become more cautious and writes that he has a "version" about the 16th army. In general, the circus tent continues.
  • kagulin58
    kagulin58 16 June 2020 07: 57 New
    15
    Strange redeployment of a combat army - without ammunition, fuel and spare parts! Unique!
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 17 June 2020 18: 04 New
      -15 qualifying.
      Quote: kagulin58
      Strange redeployment of a combat army - without ammunition, fuel and spare parts! Unique!

      There is nothing unique in this, because if the army took out all its property, it would take much more trains and time to redeploy the entire army. Given the fact that the strategic mobile reserves of the Red Army were also in the western border districts, it would not be difficult to understaff the arriving army with ammunition and weapons. That's why such a decision was made, because we were already late with the strengthening of border districts, and time was a decisive factor.
  • AsmyppoL
    16 June 2020 16: 42 New
    16
    Quote: ccsr
    Quote: AsmyppoL
    Arrived 5 German divisions from Bulgaria and became German divisions in Romania 33-35 ...
    As always, you're lying, not embarrassed, because the intelligence report indicates the exact number of German divisions in Romania, and the report was signed by Golikov:
    The number of German troops located in Romania is estimated at 4 infantry, 2 motorized and 1 tank divisions
    )
    Well, the fact that you read the bulletins as it is beneficial for you, by scamming with numbers, was noticed by more than one I, because you have been repeatedly convicted of fraud. By the way, you lied that the last RU intelligence was No. 5 dated June 15, but in fact Golikov in this report dated June 22 indicated that the intelligence data for June 20 was confirmed:
    As a result of hostilities for the day 22.6.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX received factual evidence on 20.6 about the following enemy grouping, located directly on the border with the USSR
    So you’re lying all the time, not me, and the intelligence from June 22 proved it.


    Well, you made me laugh. It's not me lying, and you can’t read the Intelligence Agency summary. And I am forced to communicate with a person with developed self-conceit, with the ability to insult the author and not even understanding what the document is about ...

    I have a good mood and will conduct a master class specifically for the expert from the couch ...
    The intelligence reports of May 31 and June 15 (as of June 1) indicate the presence of 17 German divisions in Northern Dobrudja and Moldova: "As a result of the deployments, the German troops in the Balkans are located approximately as follows: a) in Romania - against the USSR in Moldova and Dobruge are: 10 infantry divisions, 4 motorized divisions, one mountain-rifle division and two tank divisions. In the central part of Romania are located: six infantry, two motorized, two tank divisions and one aviation division.
    b) in Bulgaria - the main group of German troops (nine infantry and two tank divisions) is located on the Turkish border; "


    Now we read the summary correctly
    1. AsmyppoL
      16 June 2020 16: 48 New
      11
      Section "Southern Front" consists of two subsections




      There are seven German divisions against the Southern Front!
      1. AsmyppoL
        16 June 2020 17: 02 New
        17
        Some of the troops that are located in Romania are deployed against the KOVO or the South Federal Front. This is perfectly visible on the map with the situation of the KOVO and OdVO troops!
        Site Memory of the people is overloaded ... I will not copy you a map ...
        Now we look at what is said in the summary of German troops in Romania (it is said in two places after the list of fronts)




        In other words, to 20-00 in romania according to accurate intelligence data (more accurate according to the report of June 20, 1941) There are fifteen tank and motorized divisions.
        THOSE. five motorized hulls of the whole composition. It is as if there is a 2nd tank group (of three motorized corps) and a 3rd group (of two corps)!
        And opposite Brest there is not a single lousy motorized corps ... Just one division (formed from one motorized regiment and a tank brigade from two regiments)! So why be afraid of the 4th army if there are three infantry divisions supported by one tank division. There are no motorized infantry ....
        1. AsmyppoL
          16 June 2020 17: 06 New
          14
          Of the 46-50 divisions that intelligence sees in Romania, the Carpathian Ukraine and Slovakia, there are six (the 7th will be unloaded). In other words, intelligence data is completely false. Before the war, KOVO had to defend itself against a mythical group from the left flank.
        2. ccsr
          ccsr 16 June 2020 17: 50 New
          -18 qualifying.
          Quote: AsmyppoL
          In other words, by 20-00 in Romania, according to accurate intelligence data (to a greater extent refined by the report of June 20, 1941), there are fifteen tank and motorized divisions.

          This is a lie, not supported by anything, because in the Golikov's report of June 22 we are talking about 7 German divisions:
          The number of German troops located in Romania is estimated at 4 infantry, 2 motorized and 1 tank divisions

          And there were no fifteen divisions there - this is a lie that you invented, because you were again caught in a lie. Even German sources refute this lie, for example, in the book of the Hitler Wehrmacht General Kurt Tippelskirch “History of the Second World War” it is written: “By June 22, the day the offensive began, the strategic deployment areas were concentrated: 81 infantry division, 1 cavalry division, 17 tank, 15 motorized, 9 police and security divisions. As reserves of the high command On the way were another 22 infantry, 2 tank, 2 motorized divisions and 1 police division"(174). Total: 150 divisions.
          Golikov’s report states that there were 154-157 of them, but not 167-173, as you lied here above.
          In other words, intelligence data is completely false.

          I believe that you are lying in an impudent manner, because our intelligence data almost completely coincide with the German data, and differ only in a few divisions, which is 2-3% of the error from the German data. So the change of buttonholes, about which you poured here, did not help the Hitler command to deceive the Soviet intelligence. All your articles are false, both in fact and in fact - the analysis of the Golikov report confirmed this.
    2. ccsr
      ccsr 16 June 2020 17: 36 New
      -17 qualifying.
      Quote: AsmyppoL
      The Intelligence Agency reports dated May 31 and June 15 (as of June 1) indicate the presence of 17 German divisions in Northern Dobrudja and Moldova:

      You are just a miserable ignoramus - what you indicated on May 31, taking into account the fact that all of June the German group was strengthening, might not correspond to the data for June 22.
      Quote: AsmyppoL
      Now we read the summary correctly

      So it says that the data indicated in Golikov's intelligence report fully confirms the data as of June 20. And the circled date on the 15th copy with the words "where is the summary?" confirms that the bulletin was sent to those who were entitled to it. What did you want to impress, verbiage?
      1. AsmyppoL
        16 June 2020 17: 48 New
        13
        And by that, an expert from the couch that wrote only about one of the three German groups in Romania. One against the Southern Front. These are the seven divisions that you wrote about, calling me names. Not finding other German groups in the summary.
        The second on the southern flank of the South-Western Front - 10 divisions. It is located in Romania in Moldova.
        Third on the Black Sea coast and in Central Romania 11 divisions by June 20.
        Yes, I am amazed at your inability to read military reports
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 16 June 2020 18: 20 New
          -17 qualifying.
          Quote: AsmyppoL
          Yes, I am amazed at your inability to read military reports

          Smile down, amateur, and read what F. Golikov himself writes about the summaries in his book:
          At the same time, we indicated in the same document that "the German command continues (emphasized by me. - F.G.) the concentration of troops to the border strip with the USSR, making massive transfers of units from the depths of Germany, the occupied countries of Western Europe and the Balkans." And in the depths of Germany, as we argued in the same document, on June 1, the main military command of Nazi Germany had 44–48 divisions in its general strategic reserve. And in any case, at least half of them were intended against the USSR. Thus, the general composition of the forces of Nazi Germany, deployed and intended to begin operations against the Red Army, on June 1, 1941 amounted to at least 150–155 German divisions. As it is obvious, this calculation does not include the number of ground divisions and individual brigades of the then Hitler allies - Romania, Hungary and Finland. We knew their number exactly, as the book “Soviet Army” on page 156 correctly states, “in total 190 divisions were fully prepared against the Red Army ...” The accuracy of our data is the result of the exceptional conscientiousness of local military intelligence officers and special checks of intelligence received by employees of the Intelligence Agency.

          And now verbiage, tell me that Golikov did not know how to understand his intelligence reports, which he signed, but you, the small-town "genius" knew better than him how many divisions of the time and how many divisions his allies had. Just do not forget to study the book of Kurt Tippelskirch, which confirms the figure of 150 German divisions preparing for war against the USSR. You're more dodgy than both of them - lie something believable to the local public.
          1. AsmyppoL
            17 June 2020 04: 41 New
            14
            So the previous explanation did not reach. Well I will explain how for a student in elementary grades.
            The border territory of Romania by our intelligence and command of the districts and the General Staff was divided between two districts: OdVO and KOVO. In the future, these are the Southwestern and Southern Fronts.
            You constantly cite text relating to the Southern Front. There are SEVEN German divisions.
            The Intelligence Directorates in these combined regions of Moldova and Northern Dobruge contain a total of SEVENTE German divisions as of May 31. According to OdVO intelligence, on May 17 there are 16 divisions against the troops of their district. It’s just that one was further beyond the responsibility zone of the OdVO intelligence (a little to the west), but in Northern Dobrudja.
            On the KOVO map, all TEN German divisions are available and their division areas of concentration are marked!
            In the central part of Romania there were 11 more German divisions.
            In total 17 + 11 = 28 divisions.
            A June 22 reconnaissance report talks about the approach from Bulgaria (data change relative to June 20) of another five German divisions. THOSE. From May 31 to June 20, 1-2 divisions approached the central part of Romania or the Soviet-Romanian border.
            TWICE, the summary refers to 33-35 German divisions in Romania. I hope for the elementary school student I explained in great detail what and where it came from.
            As soon as you post a short message that "I - Milchakov did not understand the document and was wrong! I apologize for the insults!"- I am also ready to explain in detail to you other numbers from the summary. After all, you need to help amateurs to master military knowledge wink
            1. AsmyppoL
              17 June 2020 04: 42 New
              11




              As soon as you post a short message that "I - Milchakov did not understand the document and was wrong! I apologize for the insults!" - I am also ready to explain in detail to you other numbers from the summary.
            2. ccsr
              ccsr 17 June 2020 12: 43 New
              -15 qualifying.
              Quote: AsmyppoL
              So the previous explanation did not reach. Well I will explain how for a student in elementary grades.

              This is not an explanation, but a miserable lie, come up with something original.
              Quote: AsmyppoL
              The border territory of Romania by our intelligence and command of the districts and the General Staff was divided between two districts: OdVO and KOVO. In the future, these are the Southwestern and Southern Fronts.

              Yes, whoever shared what was there between the districts, Golikov, he conducted strategic reconnaissance and operated on the concept for the enemy as a country and alliances. So if he indicated 7 divisions in Romania in a summary, then it is so, and what kind of our district will fight against them, by and large do not give a damn because he is the head of the intelligence department, and not the head of the operational department.

              Quote: AsmyppoL
              In the central part of Romania there were 11 more German divisions.
              In total 17 + 11 = 28 divisions.

              Ignorant to stop lying, Golikov himself indicated in his report how many divisions were in Romania on June 22, and not what could be there on May 17 or 31.
              Quote: AsmyppoL
              - I am also ready to explain in detail other numbers from the summary.

              A wretched thimble, grabs data from the May reports, and believes that these data should definitely be confirmed on June 22. As you were a layman in military affairs, that’s what he remained, since I still don’t understand that in June there were constant movements of German troops.
              Quote: AsmyppoL
              According to OdVO intelligence, on May 17, there are 16 divisions against the troops of their district.

              The fact that you are a thimble can be seen from the way you try to bustle and slip the May report of the OdVO, contrasting it with the report of the head of the Republic of Uzbekistan on June 22, not realizing that Golikov had more accurate information than the head of the district intelligence department. By the way, where is the link to the OdVO intelligence report - do you hang noodles on people’s ears again?
              As soon as you post a short message,

              Place an ad:
              The author Eugene is a liar and a dreamer on military topics, who has been repeatedly caught on the fraud of facts, and who still has not given a single link to the documents, and if he presents them, he perverts the essence of what is written in them. For example, he lied about 111 German divisions allegedly discovered by intelligence in 1938, and there were only 39 of them, and now he has flipped the numbers of Golikov and Tippelskirch to prove that he knew better the situation at that time. So he won’t explain anything to anyone, and his pictures, processed in a photo editor, are just a fake, without documenting anything.
  • icant007
    icant007 26 June 2020 20: 24 New
    -21 qualifying.
    In the book “Commander Lukin”, a version is proposed about the end point of the route of the 16th Army in early June 1941. In the next part, we will try to verify this version using indirect facts and memoirs of war veterans.



    Some strange blunder: "the deputy chief of the operational department, brigade commander Vasilevsky"
    This is May 1941. In June 1940 he was already a major general.
    1. cavl
      cavl 27 June 2020 02: 43 New
      19
      Simply, these are the properties of the memory of an elderly person. A veteran of the past horrors of war and fascist captivity. When you can get confused in the details
      1. icant007
        icant007 27 June 2020 07: 31 New
        -14 qualifying.
        Where were the editors?
        Vasilevsky has been a major general for a year now. For some reason, Lukin remembers the title of Vatutin and Zhukov.
        And I don’t need to nod to the memory of an elderly person. Such people have always excellent memory.
        But to those who recorded the memories, they have questions.
      2. icant007
        icant007 27 June 2020 07: 42 New
        -14 qualifying.
        Moreover, I looked at this book fluently.
        This is not even a memoir - it is an art book.
        1. cavl
          cavl 30 June 2020 05: 02 New
          20
          General Lukin, like many veteran generals, did not leave his memoirs. This has long been known. These are not even the diaries of General Lukin. It may be his memories told to his daughter.
          I did not like your neglect ... God be your judge.
          The descendants are just kind to our memories and literally everyone is trying to write down ...
          Your bad habit of finding in Eugene’s materials only inaccuracies suggest such ordered behavior ...

          Last year, did you threaten to refute Evgeny’s intelligence materials?
          You didn’t get further than simple words ...
          1. icant007
            icant007 30 June 2020 07: 42 New
            -31 qualifying.
            The descendants unfortunately do not know everything, and not everyone remembers. And gossip and rumors can easily convey. I have no neglect of General Lukin. I have a dismissive attitude towards writers who make money from relatives' memoirs and do not even really check the text.
            And other authors use this as a reliable source.

            You definitely have a dismissive attitude towards intelligence on the eve of the war.

            And you like to hide behind God. Like you are closer to God.
            But is it normal for the author to pour mud bucks on reconnaissance?

            Documentary evidence simple

            Take the June 22 summary. Discrepancy in the number of divisions - 1 pc.
            The accuracy as defined in the groupings of moving parts is 75-80%.

            THIS IS A VERY GOOD INDICATOR - A SOLID FOUR.


            Here the author writes "not a single tank corps was found."

            And here they are crafty lies - they did not find the headquarters of the corps. But this is a completely different understanding.
            But the ordinary reader will understand how? - There were no German tank units at all on the border.
            And by refrain, from article to article, the author postulates the unreliability of intelligence materials.
            No matter what he writes about, everywhere his intelligence is to blame.

            I'm sorry that you fell under the influence of this unscrupulous author.
            1. cavl
              cavl 1 July 2020 04: 41 New
              23
              In the usual style. Like Mr. Kozinkin. It’s not Evgeny who pours intelligence on you, but you pours Evgeni. As I understand it, for the year you could not find a single refutation in his presentation of material about the Intelligence? Therefore, besides your insults, do you have anything to object to him?

              You did not find anything in the material of Eugene seditious, but you can slander with a clear conscience. Here is a concrete example of your false truth: "Take the report from June 22. The discrepancy in the number of divisions - 1 pc. Accuracy by definition in the composition of the groupings of mobile units - 75-80%. THIS IS A VERY GOOD INDICATOR - A SOLID FOUR."

              The intelligence report indicates the presence of 32-35 German divisions in Romania. Of these, 15 are tank and motorized divisions. One and a half tank groups! And is this true intelligence information? You just, as in Soviet times, lied in a big way - you are also deceiving. But you know the intelligence materials! This issue has been discussed more than once.
              Another question. It was also THREE in the materials of Eugene. This is the Brest direction. In this direction, ONE tank division of an incomplete state instead of the strongest Guderian tank group. One tank division, two cavalry brigades and three infantry divisions!
              Again incomplete intelligence data, or rather false intelligence data! And the same false data from intelligence comes about this direction on June 23! It turns out that you lied again ...... You know about it and lie in my eyes. Something tells me that you are simply fulfilling Kozinkin’s order. The manners are identical ... It seems that Oleg Yuryevich attracted his young relative, but the same illiterate, unfortunately ....
              The first tank group ... The head of the operations department of the South-Western Front, Baghramyan wrote in his memoirs about the unexpected attacks of two German motorized corps in the areas in which they were NOT WAITED! Until the evening of June 22, there was no true information.
              Almost the same thing is written by the red commander from the operational unit of the army, located opposite the first tank group. Intelligence provided data on only two of the five tank divisions and did not give any information about the concentration of this group! Again, this has been written many times, and you are lying on your blue eye about the exact intelligence data. You know and cheat again. You cannot know and be mistaken! You can know and knowingly place false materials. And this is fraud. Your Kozinkin also acts: he deceives, uses only the necessary facts and rudely insults people. Two of a Kind!
              And what is going on with us? True intelligence data do not correspond to reality in three main areas of striking! Information about the presence or absence of more than three tank groups is false!
              1. cavl
                cavl 1 July 2020 04: 49 New
                30
                Third Panzer Group! She is also not on the map of the Western District on June 21. She is also not in the materials of the Intelligence Agency. All tanks in this direction were invented on June 22 in the Intelligence Directorate. therefore they are not on the map of the headquarters of the Western District. Only the note "supposedly two SS armored divisions." But against Bialystok in the western direction - as many as two tank divisions and one in Warsaw - the 8th tank division! And this is true data? Again, a lie on your part, since you posted comments in the part where it was mentioned. and after all, except for words, it was not refuted! Not a word was denied ...
                The fourth tank group - it is also not on the map of the Baltic region on June 21. Some of the tanks are noted by intelligence in Tilsit, but this damn little ...... After all, the intelligence that you allegedly defend gives the structure of the German tank division, which consists of FIVE regiments: a tank brigade - two tank regiments, a motorized rifle brigade - two motorized rifle regiments and artillery regiment! Intelligence in the Baltic, Western and Kiev districts provides information on tank regiments - two per division, but the remaining THREE regiments of these divisions - no! Either they have not arrived or not been discovered. If not detected, then located far, since reconnaissance information even for sapper companies located separately and batteries also located separately gives.
                Lie further - I think there is something to minus you for, as well as your second relative - Kozinkina!
  • icant007
    icant007 20 July 2020 09: 54 New
    -5
    Quote: cavl
    The intelligence report indicates the presence of 32-35 German divisions in Romania. Of these, 15 are tank and motorized divisions. One and a half tank groups! And is this true intelligence information? You just, as in Soviet times, lied in a big way - you are also deceiving. But you know the intelligence materials! This issue has been discussed more than once.

    Yes, there is a big question about Romania. For all that, these data are not included in the appendix in the table "Combat strength and distribution of the German army".
    Why? I do not know.

    But that doesn't change my "4" grade.

    You and the author aim to overwhelm the reader with the enormous detail of the facts, showing poor intelligence work.
    I am striving for an integral assessment, I want to show you that intelligence has worked well.
    Yes, of course, there are many inaccuracies and inconsistencies, but this is NORMAL. This is a workflow, some data are not further confirmed, some - yes.
    It’s not me digging in details and looking for inaccuracies, but you and the author.