Military Review

Why the army needs different-sized assault rifles: a long-standing dispute about caliber

284

Disputes over which caliber is ideal for assault rifle weaponsnot less than half a century. In recent decades, there has been a tendency towards a decrease in caliber, but now the view on this issue is being revised.


Seventies trend - reduce caliber


The movement to a smaller caliber began with the fact that in the late 1960s. in the United States, an automatic M16 rifle designed for 5,56 mm caliber was developed. She replaced the automatic weapons with a caliber of 7,62 mm, which caused some discontent among the military due to heavy ammunition and low fire stability with bursts.

Then they came to a similar decision in the Soviet Union. The goal was to develop a small-caliber cartridge with high penetration. Work on the cartridge was carried out by TsNIITOCHMASH experts. As a result, in the early 1970s, a new cartridge appeared. It differed from the cartridge 7,62x39 by a number of characteristics.

Firstly, the bullet was twice as light, and secondly, the machine shook less when fired, which had a direct effect on the dispersion and increased probability of hitting the target. Finally, the flatness of the bullet trajectory has improved.

The weight of the 5,45 caliber ammunition was 10 grams, while 7,62 was 16 grams. The difference is significant: the ammunition of 100 rounds differed in weight by 600 grams, and given that the standard ammunition included 8 stores, the total weight of the soldier's equipment when using a 5,45 cartridge decreased by one and a half kilograms.


For firing 5,45 mm rounds, the Kalashnikov assault rifle and machine gun were upgraded. So there were AK-74, RPK-74 and AKS-74U. By the way, the transition to 5,45 mm cartridges significantly reduced the cost of the production of domestic small arms. The whole end of the twentieth - the beginning of the XXI centuries. 5,45 mm caliber remained the most common among Russian assault weapons, while in the armies of NATO countries 5,56 mm caliber was in the first place. Recently, however, there has been a tendency to revise attitudes towards small-caliber cartridges.

Why 7,62 returns


Cartridges of 7,62 mm continue to be used in special forces. After all, they are distinguished by greater penetration. In addition, where it is planned to shoot from a weapon with a silencer, a caliber of 7,62 mm, according to experts, is also more preferable. Therefore, the military, both in Russia and in NATO countries, are discussing the possibility of increasing the caliber of assault small arms.

In Russia, two possible options are being discussed. The first is the return to the cartridge of 7,62x39 mm, which was used until the 1970s. The second is to develop a fundamentally new cartridge, which would be somewhere between 7,62 and 5,45 and, thereby, would combine the advantages of both calibers. For example, it can be a caliber of 6,5 mm, which will have a greater penetration ability than 5,45, but at the same time will have a flatter trajectory than 7,62. But how much will such a "reform gauge" ...


Interestingly, in the West, experts also preferred the old 7,62 x 39 cartridge, especially since almost all mass automatic rifles used by the armies of the North Atlantic Alliance can be quite easily upgraded for firing 7,62 mm cartridges. It is necessary to replace the barrel, since an attempt to shoot a 7,62 cartridge from a weapon designed to fire 5,56 will lead to very disastrous consequences.

Experts consider diversification of assault small arms to be the best way out of a controversial situation. It is impossible to create a universal assault rifle that would be ideally suited for both a motorized infantry draftee and a special forces professional who are faced with slightly different tasks. Therefore, the armed forces are gradually coming to an understanding of the need to combine weapons of various calibers. One of these areas is modular weapons, but there are many related problems.
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284 comments
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  1. vvvjak
    vvvjak 12 June 2020 13: 51 New
    +8
    For a total war, 5,45 is quite suitable. For specialists, there are already many types of small arms of various calibers and new ones are constantly being developed.
    1. paul3390
      paul3390 12 June 2020 14: 53 New
      +8
      No. Americans are not in vain after Afghanistan bustled rifles under .308Win to return back ..
      1. NEXUS
        NEXUS 12 June 2020 21: 15 New
        +3
        Quote: paul3390
        No. Americans are not in vain after Afghanistan bustled rifles under .308Win to return back ..

        Americans are already working hard ...
        Remington SPC (from the English special purpose cartridge - cartridge for special purposes) - an intermediate cartridge of caliber 6,8 × 43 mm, created as an optimal intermediate cartridge with good ballistics and lethal force, moderate recoil and size

        And I think this is a more versatile cartridge than 7,62 and 5,45.
        I think that a cartridge over 6 mm (ideally 6,5 mm) is long overdue.
        But in all of this there is another, more important point — this is gunpowder new. The quality of our gunpowder is inferior to Western and this is a fact.
        I think that in addition to the new cartridge itself, it is necessary to accelerate work on new gunpowders.
        1. ProkletyiPirat
          ProkletyiPirat 12 June 2020 22: 23 New
          -3
          Quote: NEXUS
          The quality of our gunpowder is inferior to Western and this is a fact.

          I disagree with you. in fact, you say the following "since they don't make a ferrari in the Russian Federation, then in the Russian Federation quality car construction is worse "and the fact that these same Ferrari nafig are not needed, and even the rich because the snow / foliage / puddles and long live the accident (we will not take into account the major geniuses of the thought of cramming girls of easy virtue). So we have the same topic with gunpowder, they are not worse / better, we just have different criteria for assessing “quality.” The problem is that in the west their criteria are narrower but formalized, while in our country they are broad but not formalized into a single system.
          1. aviator6768
            aviator6768 13 June 2020 22: 14 New
            +2
            Judging by the number of minuses, your point. of view deserves attention (as min.) (Hello, admins ...) Now on the topic - in the pandsher they changed the trunks twice (they did not ask, the Soviet system was ...) I even had a night vision device (guys from reconnaissance 345 looked, envied ...) (earring, hello, how is Pata?) ..... "Gunpowder" ... how many times have you wiped yourself (God, forgive me ...) ?? And now - how many times have you wondered - what are there gunpowder ...? The machine is working, God forbid, everyone, believe me, has something to compare with ... colts, 16.82 m-3, bushes, even a stinger once fired (into a white light ...) ... Guys - only PEOPLE will decide everything ... only PEOPLE ... My head is cracking because of the man, the cat. just scared ... (mine and covered)
            1. forest1
              forest1 15 June 2020 13: 03 New
              0
              In general, to justify the high quality of Russian products on the example of the high quality of the Russian automotive industry is an unsuccessful idea, to put it mildly. Maybe that's why cons
              1. ProkletyiPirat
                ProkletyiPirat 15 June 2020 17: 21 New
                0
                Pavel, you obviously did not read my post ...
                Or read diagonally, grabbing familiar words and building your own fantasies from them ...
                It’s impossible to explain your post in another way ...
                1. forest1
                  forest1 15 June 2020 17: 47 New
                  +1
                  Well yes. Priora is not worse in quality than a Ferrari. Priors just have different criteria. Your thought is very true
                  1. ProkletyiPirat
                    ProkletyiPirat 15 June 2020 18: 23 New
                    +1
                    And what comes of one bad prior with a couple of pots you measure the entire auto industry? fool It seems that you have such a personal hatred of AvtoVAZ, but the auto industry is not only frets priors, but also KAMAZ and UAZ and many other enterprises. In any case, here we are talking about gunpowder, and about military gunpowder, and not about the auto industry ..
                    1. forest1
                      forest1 15 June 2020 19: 19 New
                      0
                      Here you have UAZ quality new.
                      Even the electrodes were not torn from the body. With them and painted

                      With gunpowder, we are also not very. American solid fuel rockets have a better ratio. Payload / Launch Mass
        2. Uncle Izya
          Uncle Izya 13 June 2020 06: 30 New
          0
          Americans already get 6,8 mm caliber rifles
        3. Yarhann
          Yarhann 13 June 2020 13: 35 New
          -2
          where's the nonsense about gunpowder? what do you think flies Iskander or Mace? There are no problems with gunpowders at all, there is a problem of the cost of these gunpowders. You can also cram an expensive more powerful gunpowder in a 5,45 / 5,56 caliber cartridge and go out to characteristics that are unattainable for ordinary gunpowder in caliber 6,5 / 7,62 - only one such cartridge will cost a dafig and more, there will be more wear trunk due to - more heat.
          we also have cartridges with solid-state bullet cores — tungsten / depleted uranium — in caliber 5,45 / 5,56, which surely pierce any body armor at a range of aimed fire from an assault rifle. but the problem is the price of this cartridge. the same cartridges are for the same PM pistols - which confidently sew body armor - the question is again the price.
          The transition to a larger caliber is not a matter of today, it is a perspective and it is complex. This is the introduction of exoskeletons in the army, which will enable soldiers to wear heavy personal armor protection, more powerful optical weapons on small arms - all this will increase the effective range and protection - that is, a new ammunition will be needed and this is probably not 6,5 / 7,62, but more. The weapon will become heavier and more accurate, increase the range of aimed fire - but all this is impossible without the introduction of exoskeletons. So all dances with tambourines between caliber 5,45 / 7,62 are nothing more than cutting dough in the military-industrial complex.
          The effectiveness of the already invented 5,45 / 5,56 caliber bullets is now sufficient - you just don’t get goofy, but buy these ammunition. Moreover, it is many times cheaper than switching to new calibers with the same efficiency.
    2. NIKN
      NIKN 12 June 2020 17: 29 New
      0
      Essentially so! A universal cartridge (even in the name is introduced) does not exist ... a priori, and in my opinion (I do not think that my opinion is the only one), which means universal in general. (MAY HE AT SPECIFIC TASKS AND MAKE UP IS A SPECTIVE?). ALL PTA / ROONS ARE CREATED IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE TASK. And here are the problems who, by the criteria, created the task not for you to judge. And if you took a cartridge, well, believe me, you really need it!
    3. figwam
      figwam 12 June 2020 17: 29 New
      +2
      Quote: vvvjak
      For a total war, 5,45 is quite suitable.

      Protective equipment is becoming more effective, and therefore they want to increase the caliber, 5.45 can no longer cope.
      1. Aag
        Aag 13 June 2020 07: 53 New
        +1
        I myself am surprised, but Vicki, among the shortcomings of the cartridge 7,62 compared to low-pulse cartridges 5,45, 5,6, indicates a smaller breakdown effect ... ((
        1. Yarhann
          Yarhann 13 June 2020 14: 00 New
          -7
          the mass of the bullet is greater, the speed is less - penetration is less and there are still a lot of shortcomings.
          1. ProkletyiPirat
            ProkletyiPirat 13 June 2020 16: 32 New
            +2
            Quote: Yarhann
            and a lot of shortcomings.

            and the same mass of pluses in the other direction, it’s like running in a circle with a rake scattered, in one it pulled ahead in other places, lost, and in the third it got on the forehead and left the race ...
            1. Yarhann
              Yarhann 13 June 2020 16: 39 New
              -5
              all the advanced armies of the world switched to assault rifles with a caliber of 5,45 / 5,56 and left all shortcomings of a caliber of 7,62. all dances with tambourines are now being conducted around the creation of new cartridges used in the 5,45 / 5,56 calibers. Wishlist to switch to another caliber is more lobbying for the interests of the military-industrial complex. increase the initial speed and penetration can be blunt extension of the trunk. By the way, the M16 used in the United States Commission has the same penetration as the M4 but at a greater distance (50m) with the same cartridge.
              Go to a more powerful cartridge (in a larger caliber) is only possible in the case of a new weapon with fully balanced automation as in the same AN-94
              1. ProkletyiPirat
                ProkletyiPirat 13 June 2020 17: 10 New
                0
                Quote: Yarhann
                Go to a more powerful cartridge (in a larger caliber) is only possible in the case of a new weapon with fully balanced automation as in the same AN-94

                Well, this is not entirely true (you are only partially right),
                1) you can now switch to a larger caliber by creating lighter bullets (for example, a copper-plated shell, a steel rod and a plastic insert between them), but such a cartridge will require the creation of a new weapon and by itself it will not be better than the existing one because there will be the same restrictions but shifted by specific numbers.
                2) you can develop a new weapon with new automation, but not the AN-94 because it has the same problems with tight binding to cartridges.
                1. aviator6768
                  aviator6768 15 June 2020 15: 13 New
                  -2
                  Did you shoot from the "automatic"? Just wondering (and somewhere enviable ...) ... Well, how is it? How many zinks were pulsed - there are no letters on the site ... Why, everything is smooth, it doesn't get off your hands, that's straight as smooth as a little guy? Guys, who is the 94th, or Kalash with automatic equipment, well, don't torment ...
            2. Sergey10789
              Sergey10789 26 June 2020 08: 38 New
              0
              And in which they lost?) Well, in which?
          2. Aag
            Aag 26 June 2020 20: 52 New
            0
            In what year did you study physics? The law of conservation of momentum?
        2. Sergey10789
          Sergey10789 26 June 2020 08: 36 New
          0
          The most true statement. Less cross section, higher speed, the same bullet material. In general, little depends on the mass of the bullet. I myself am surprised where it comes from such infa about the large penetration ability of 7.62x39 compared to 5.45x39. ???? The author didn’t hem the army’s gateway in the army))))) - try to break the collar with a thick needle!)))) The gunners have the same song. Not in vain invented sub-caliber shells. Therefore, this is not an article, but nonsense; beyond reading power, even reading was no longer interesting.
      2. Sergey10789
        Sergey10789 26 June 2020 08: 55 New
        0
        There is one small detail: an increase in the caliber in the dimensions of the cartridge for small arms of the infantry cannot solve the problem, and indeed it is not necessary to solve it either. The outcome of any battle (well, except for highly specialized operations, such as sweeping, going to the address, etc.) since the Second World War is decided not by gunners with machine guns, but by machine guns, tanks, artillery and aviation. The task of the shooters is reduced, first of all, to fettering the enemy’s actions, and only then, if possible, to destroying the enemy’s manpower. And 5.45x39 is quite suitable for these purposes!)
  2. KSVK
    KSVK 12 June 2020 13: 51 New
    23
    Interestingly, in the West, experts also preferred the old cartridge 7,62 x 39

    And from this moment you can get more details. What kind of cartridge is this? In the "West", what?
    I now know ONLY ONE cartridge, which is in service with NATO-7,62 NATO countries. But this is 7,62x51.
    By the way, the transition to 5,45 mm cartridges significantly reduced the cost of the production of domestic small arms.

    But please specify, due to what the "significant reduction in price" is achieved? And how much is it in gr ... money?
    In addition, where it is planned to shoot from a weapon with a silencer, a caliber of 7,62 mm, according to experts, is also more preferable.

    For shooting with a silencer, 9mm is better. yes
    And there is a domestic cartridge 9x39. These are Vintorez and AS Val. No "seven" can compare.
    NATO has 7,62 and 5,56 subsonic. But this is not massive. And the junk is complete. Especially 5,56.
    at the same time will have a flatter trajectory

    Sorry, I couldn't resist ... not "flat", but flat. smile
    And the 6,5 caliber still has an effective range. And she's at 7,62. And even more. No 5,56 will reach.
    Therefore, the armed forces are gradually coming to an understanding of the need to combine weapons of various calibers. One of these areas is modular weapons, but there are many related problems.

    Now what then? There are 5,56 and 7,62 NATO. We have 5 and 7. Yes, and the 54th. What is not the diversity?
    1. Uncle lee
      Uncle lee 12 June 2020 13: 59 New
      +9
      Three lines (7,62) -Our everything!
      1. Insurgent
        Insurgent 12 June 2020 14: 27 New
        14
        almost all the massive automatic rifles used by the armies of the Alliance can be quite easily upgraded for firing 7,62 mm rounds. It is necessary to replace the barrel, since an attempt to shoot a 7,62 cartridge from a weapon designed to fire 5,56 will lead to very disastrous consequences.


        Author, first try to drive the cartridge into the chamber in order to fire a shot, and then make yourself an "expert" ...

        I somehow had to "pick out" from the chamber of the RPK-74 accidentally "wedged" into the store 7,62X39 ...
        It’s good that such an ambush did not occur at a critical moment ...
        1. aviator6768
          aviator6768 15 June 2020 15: 17 New
          -1
          What are you spinning with? What did you score with him there? In the warmed barrel 5.45 (three horns long (5.56 - like a native, but 7.62 (or what I did not understand ...)
          1. Insurgent
            Insurgent 15 June 2020 15: 26 New
            0
            Quote: aviator6768
            What are you spinning with? What did you score with him there? In the warmed barrel 5.45 (three horns long (5.56 - like a native, but 7.62 (or what I did not understand ...)


            For starters, without emotion and politely ... Okay?

            And the following ... 7,62X39, easy, steaming, in the dark, to the touch, to drive into the store instead of 5,45X39. And from there, it is just as easily removed by the RPK (AK) feed mechanism and sent (up to a certain measure) to the chamber, where it is firmly and successfully stuck. And by the usual manipulation of the shutter, you can’t pick it out from there.
            It is necessary either to retract the bolt frame and try to pick it out with something like a ramrod, or, if it does not work out, disassemble the machine gun ...
            1. aviator6768
              aviator6768 15 June 2020 15: 38 New
              0
              Ok, let's be polite ... Did the young man put it in the store for you ...? We've got everyone transferred to 5.45, well. lying around somewhere "fat" - how did he score them in the store? "to pick it out .... but I can't even imagine - how ... it is possible ... And the" capsule "? He himself only ... commanded, no?
              1. Insurgent
                Insurgent 15 June 2020 15: 46 New
                +1
                Quote: aviator6768
                Have you charged his young man to the store ...?


                In the militia, in the war, there are no "young" and "old", all are equal.

                Quote: aviator6768
                We've got everyone transferred to 5.45, well. lying around somewhere "fat" - how did he score them in the store?


                By chance, perhaps a "seven" cartridge got into the zinc with "loose powder". At that time, we still had "inconsistency" and AKM and AK-74 ... And in a fever, but without looking, it is easy to drive the "seven" yourself purely "on the machine".
                Quote: aviator6768
                "to pick it out .... but I can't even imagine - how ... it can be ... And the" capsule "?


                The "seven" cartridge is not completely stuck in the chamber, the "bottom" of the sleeve sticks out, so you can pick it out, but in different cases with different hemorrhoids ...
                1. aviator6768
                  aviator6768 15 June 2020 16: 03 New
                  -1
                  OK, Got it! I would say right away ... I thought, they say, what a green "dove" I wrote ... To be honest, there were cartridges at the point (checkpoint in pandsher) - in every corner ... But no one confused the fat ones, right away thrown out as soon as they sent 5.45 and PKM (but the dshk remained until my demobilization, double-barreled, reliable and support ...)
                  1. Insurgent
                    Insurgent 15 June 2020 16: 08 New
                    0
                    Quote: aviator6768
                    dshk remained until my demobilization, double-barreled, reliability and support ...

                    We have DShKs even in the "handbrake" version laughing

                    The photo is not ours, we had a similar NSV "Cliff".
                    1. aviator6768
                      aviator6768 15 June 2020 16: 35 New
                      0
                      Brother, and in the know (guys and battalion reconnaissance 345 (foreman there - zem)), in the 88th year they gave us (gray - hello) they told us that even dshk perfumes were dragged out of the balance, ?? Estimate.? Weight. Return .. .But, I would bend down ....
                      1. aviator6768
                        aviator6768 15 June 2020 16: 43 New
                        0
                        They clap ... They don’t clatter like the 45th ... It’s scary ... Living is a hunt for everyone ... Then don’t listen to cormorants ....... And we won’t talk about mines in general? They even gave me 3 thousand rubles for an injury, count up? Half a day of earnings from BARKLAYS. Where I work now ... (fund of Smolensk veterans including)
      2. paul3390
        paul3390 12 June 2020 14: 44 New
        +9
        Well - actually, even the grandfather Fedorov made the first submachine guns just under 6.5 ... Apparently - somehow it’s not in vain .. And the Swedes made a rifle cartridge for this caliber, both the Japanese and Italians ..
        1. Insurgent
          Insurgent 12 June 2020 15: 15 New
          +5
          V.G. Fedorov made his machine under available from available, Japanese cartridge "6,5 Arisaka" relying on the fact that this caliber was, as it were, "intermediate" among rifle.

          The current concept of "intermediate cartridge" has a slightly different, broader background.
          And in caliber, and in magnitude of charge and in the dimensions of the cartridge itself, and as a result - and ballistics.
          1. paul3390
            paul3390 12 June 2020 15: 22 New
            10
            No. Initially - he made a machine gun under his cartridge 6.5, and only then switched to Japanese, because in the tsarist army - the adoption of a new cartridge was more than problematic .. And as practice has shown - switching to a low-pulse cartridge is a very controversial decision .. IMHO - Grendel’s version as something more sane .. Especially for us, because it’s just the former Soviet cartridge, re-rolled under 6.5 ..
            1. Insurgent
              Insurgent 12 June 2020 16: 02 New
              0
              Quote: paul3390
              No. Initially - he made a machine under his cartridge 6.5, and only then switched to Japanese

              Where can I find the data that this is so?
              1. Undecim
                Undecim 12 June 2020 17: 57 New
                +9
                Where can I find the data that this is so?
                You can see Fedorov in his book "The Evolution of Small Arms", part 2, p. 218
              2. ssergey1978
                ssergey1978 12 June 2020 19: 46 New
                +2
                This is a well-known fact. If sclerosis doesn’t change me, it’s in the Beetle Encyclopedia
              3. riwas
                riwas 13 June 2020 03: 30 New
                +2
                Where can I find the data that this is so?

                It is very well described in the book by D.N. Bolotin. "Soviet small arms", M, Military publishing house, 1990
                http://militera.lib.ru/tw/bolotin_dn01/index.html
          2. Pavel57
            Pavel57 13 June 2020 09: 24 New
            0
            Arisaka was 6.5 x 40.
            1. ProkletyiPirat
              ProkletyiPirat 13 June 2020 16: 39 New
              +2
              Neither the caliber of the bullet nor the length of the sleeve are the main parameter of the "intermediate cartridge"; it is "intermediate" not in calibers and sleeves, but in the recoil momentum between pistol and rifle ones, everything else is secondary.
              1. aviator6768
                aviator6768 15 June 2020 19: 48 New
                0
                Exactly ! Going back to the old gunpowder topic? Mosin put on the Ural factories ...
                1. ProkletyiPirat
                  ProkletyiPirat 15 June 2020 20: 34 New
                  0
                  0) No,
                  1) all sorts of alchemical recipes are not interesting to me because they are pseudoscientific ... (science \ pseudoscience \ pseudoscience are different things)
                  2) the recoil momentum is influenced by: bullet mass, hitch, shape and fraction of MBV, detonation properties of MBV, muzzle diameter, rifling properties, DTK and PBBS properties, extinguishing system and redistribution of recoil ..... And consider the topic of "intermediate cartridge" only only according to one of these parameters, this srachik-holivar is senseless and merciless.
                  My opinion is quite simple: firstly, it is necessary to remove or weaken the restrictions in the form of a strict interdependence of weapons and cartridges, and secondly, it is unnecessary to strike at "optimization" as Western manufacturers of MVV do.
                  1. The comment was deleted.
                    1. ProkletyiPirat
                      ProkletyiPirat 15 June 2020 23: 46 New
                      0
                      1) Your "combat" references are not appropriate and go beyond the boundaries of the topic under discussion, leave them with you, neither me nor others reading the thread are interested in them
                      2) "properties of the barrel during intensive combat" does not affect the recoil momentum of the cartridge, at least for rifled weapons. (the influence there is comparable to the statistical error). Purely theoretically, this is possible, but it should be super thin, low-melting, self-stabilizing barrels (it even sounds crazy laughing ), in ordinary cases, the barrel by that time (when the influence will be fixed) is already undergoing a replacement due to the curvature of the barrel and erased rifling which can affect the recoil (but again, the measurement error) ..
                      1. aviator6768
                        aviator6768 16 June 2020 12: 14 New
                        0
                        Hey, "our pertinent" - where, who ??, you cannot be assembled against some kind of virus ... but if there is a war ?? Where are you? Who? Title, position, merit, awards ??? At least one name! Then the whips ... I know that the machine gunner of the cliff in the 9th company - in the armored back (i.e., through and through - about 7-8 minutes were found flattened ... You - who? Where are you? , infidel ... I will crush .... (I will not swear, because ...) Work in three hours, the Russians are not in the part about making money ... (because of people like you - the weak ...)
    2. dzvero
      dzvero 12 June 2020 14: 37 New
      +5
      In the West, they seem to have developed 7.62x35 and 7.62x40. And if the second is more likely for hunting, then the first is positioned as an analogue of 7.62x39. True, NATO is not in service, but there is a backlog.
      And so, the transition to a new caliber is not cheap. The price of providing one motorized rifle regiment with cartridges for a year of active operations is quite comparable with the price of a new tank.
  3. Hunter 2
    Hunter 2 12 June 2020 13: 56 New
    11
    A greater number of different-sized weapons - definitely unnecessary headaches to the Rear Surveyors - to the supplymen! The question is complex, there is no single solution - It definitely doesn’t!
    Again - how many finished ammunition are in storage depots ... they also need to be put somewhere!
    The creation of an intermediate cartridge analogue of 243 cal NATO - a promising direction, but - Costly!
    Russia still needs to deal with the release of Quality gunpowder!
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 12 June 2020 15: 41 New
      +7
      Quote: Hunter 2
      A greater number of different-sized weapons - definitely unnecessary headaches to the Rear Surveyors - to the supplymen! The question is complex, there is no single solution - It definitely doesn’t!

      You correctly noticed the essence of this issue, which many theorists simply forget, because they do not know what is hidden behind it. Let me remind you that this problem arose in the Soviet Army, but at that time they did not spare money for defense, and some customers made everything that came to their mind, even exotic ones. In the nineties, the military budget fell sharply, which is why the Ministry of Defense program was launched to unify armaments and military equipment - I myself dealt with this in some areas and I know how hard it was in the troops because of the wide variety of non-matching systems.
      I don’t know what is floating around in the minds of our pilots, but I think that a return to a larger caliber than 5,45 has matured, if only because the stopping effect of a 7,62 bullet when hit in body armor will still be stronger than that of a smaller caliber. I think that a single machine gun will be needed for all types and types of troops in two or three modifications, with the exception of special forces, where a sniper rifle is still required and this will stop. The cartridge in my opinion should be the same - 7,62 for a machine gun, machine gun and rifle (if possible, use powerful types of powder mixtures). At least this will reduce production costs, and most importantly, facilitate the supply of troops.
    2. Nehist
      Nehist 12 June 2020 15: 53 New
      +3
      The problem of gunpowder is a headache since the time of the Empire !!! We invent a wunder wunder. And we can’t unfortunately give a high-quality powder :(
    3. ssergey1978
      ssergey1978 12 June 2020 19: 51 New
      -1
      Kazan makes good gunpowder.
  4. iouris
    iouris 12 June 2020 14: 08 New
    -1
    How to lose a war? I will explain. It is necessary to destroy the state, reduce the population and its food base, deprive it of historical memory, replace "single-caliber" submachine guns with "multi-caliber" ones, and finally get involved in a war.
  5. Kot_Kuzya
    Kot_Kuzya 12 June 2020 14: 19 New
    -4
    The caliber 6,5 mm is neither fish nor meat. The advantage of caliber 7,62 is that for it you can create special bullets, for example armor-piercing incendiary and incendiary. For a caliber of 6,5 mm, the creation of such special bullets is no longer possible. The advantage of the 5,45 caliber is that it is lightweight, it has a lower recoil momentum, higher initial speed, and it is cheaper than the 7,62 caliber. In my opinion, nothing needs to be changed, 5,45 is a good caliber for machine guns and light machine guns. 7,62 is good for sniper rifles and for machine guns.
    1. Insurgent
      Insurgent 12 June 2020 14: 32 New
      +8
      Quote: Kot_Kuzya
      In my opinion, nothing needs to be changed, 5,45 is a good caliber for machine guns and light machine guns. 7,62 is good for sniper rifles and for machine guns.


      Obviously you mean 7,62X54R, not 7,62X39? But there is also a significant claim to the good old "Mosin" patron - rim ("flange").
      1. Kot_Kuzya
        Kot_Kuzya 12 June 2020 14: 56 New
        0
        Yes, a good old Mosin cartridge. 7,62 * 39 is definitely outdated, for machine guns and a parking brake 5,45 * 39 is preferable due to lower recoil and lower weight of ammunition.
        Quote: Insurgent
        But the good old "Mosin" cartridge has a significant complaint - the flange ("flange").

        SVD and RMB work very well on this cartridge. For tape-powered weapons, the rim is not such a big drawback. And in the SVD store has a capacity of only 10 rounds, and the rim also does not particularly interfere. It was inconvenient in ABC with a 15-round magazine and in the Lahti machine gun with a 20-round magazine. There are British under their cartridge .303 British for a machine gun Bren managed to create a box magazine for 30 rounds.
        1. Insurgent
          Insurgent 12 June 2020 14: 58 New
          +7
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          Yes, a good old Mosin cartridge. 7,62 * 39 is definitely out of date


          Error again...

          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          in the SVD store has a capacity of only 10 rounds, and the rim also does not particularly interfere.


          Would you know what cost E.F. Dragunov achieve the reliability of the filing of this cartridge in the SVD ...
          1. Oyo Sarkazmi
            Oyo Sarkazmi 12 June 2020 18: 23 New
            +2
            Quote: Insurgent
            Would you know what cost E.F. Dragunov achieve the reliability of the filing of this cartridge in the SVD ...

            As a result, the store was provided to him by a competitor in the competition. Which did not work mechanics.
        2. illi
          illi 12 June 2020 15: 49 New
          +5
          Yes, a good old Mosin cartridge. 7,62 * 39

          Did you happen to drink with the author at the Brudershaft? And then something about 7.62 * 39 takes you there. He writes that NATO will return to him. And you do confuse him with another.
        3. Oyo Sarkazmi
          Oyo Sarkazmi 12 June 2020 18: 22 New
          -2
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          And in the SVD store has a capacity of only 10 rounds, and the rim also does not particularly interfere.

          I read that the rim is just good for magazine weapons - there is less chance of skewing in the store. And for tape power - the edge reduces the rate of fire.
          1. Revolver
            Revolver 12 June 2020 21: 55 New
            0
            Quote: Oo sarcasm
            And for tape power - the edge reduces the rate of fire.

            ShKAS 1800 rounds per minute, cartridge with a rim.
            MG 42, the famous "Hitler's saw", 1200, with a special shutter 1500, a cartridge with a groove.
            1. Oyo Sarkazmi
              Oyo Sarkazmi 13 June 2020 18: 48 New
              +3
              Quote: Nagan
              ShKAS 1800 rounds per minute, cartridge with a rim.

              In ShKAS, the reload of the cartridge is extended to several shots. Without a flange - the cartridge is simply pushed forward. That is, the mechanics are much simpler.
              DShK during the war made a cartridge without a rim. They tried to make additional stores - nothing came of it.
    2. pv1005
      pv1005 12 June 2020 15: 40 New
      +3
      Quote: Kot_Kuzya
      The caliber 6,5 mm is neither fish nor meat. The advantage of caliber 7,62 is that for it you can create special bullets, for example armor-piercing incendiary and incendiary. For a caliber of 6,5 mm, the creation of such special bullets is no longer possible. The advantage of the 5,45 caliber is that it is lightweight, it has a lower recoil momentum, higher initial speed, and it is cheaper than the 7,62 caliber. In my opinion, nothing needs to be changed, 5,45 is a good caliber for machine guns and light machine guns. 7,62 is good for sniper rifles and for machine guns.

      Here you have an interesting logic 5,45x39 is armor-piercing (7N10, 7N20, 7N22, 7N24, 7N39, 7BT4), and 6,5 mm is impossible request .
      1. Kot_Kuzya
        Kot_Kuzya 12 June 2020 15: 45 New
        -1
        Do you understand what you read? I wrote about armor-piercing incendiary and incendiary bullets.
    3. Yarhann
      Yarhann 13 June 2020 14: 07 New
      -3
      sniper rifles have their own rounds of life, as if because the barrel is different in length and the slicing is different and indeed you can’t do anything from the RPK SVD even if you screw the same scope)
      1. Kot_Kuzya
        Kot_Kuzya 13 June 2020 15: 42 New
        +4
        Confusing PKK and SVD is powerful! wassat You still confuse PM and AK!
        1. Yarhann
          Yarhann 13 June 2020 15: 47 New
          -4
          shte? what the hell
          1. Hunter 2
            Hunter 2 13 June 2020 16: 44 New
            +4
            Quote: Yarhann
            shte? what the hell

            Kuzya wrote everything correctly ... in terms of confusing (PKK With PC) and compare PKK and SVD.
            RPK - created on the basis of AKM with an elongated barrel (7.62 # 39 and 5.45 # 39 modifications of the RPK, RPKS, RPKSN).
            SVD caliber 7.62 # 54.
            You can try to compare a PC (PKM, PKT ...) having the same caliber 7.62 # 54 as the SVD.
      2. Oyo Sarkazmi
        Oyo Sarkazmi 13 June 2020 19: 01 New
        +5
        Quote: Yarhann
        sniper rifles have their rounds of life

        Unfortunately, "in life" SVD are forced to shoot ordinary cartridges from "mosinka". Initially, the SVD had a cutting pitch of 330 mm, and fired "sports" cartridges with a bullet of improved ballistics. But the shooting with armor-piercing and incendiary from it was simply deplorable. And then the cutting was done with a step of 250 mm, like a "mosinka". Range and accuracy have fallen, but the degenerates are happy - don't bother with the production of precision bullets. Shoot what you have.
        1. Yarhann
          Yarhann 13 June 2020 19: 13 New
          0
          for SVD it’s normal, why other cartridges for the sniper squad. But he should act not himself, but as part of the squad. By the way, in foreign armies snipers have similar rifles for maxmarkers. Therefore, as a result, the machine gun and rifle are shot with one cartridge. As well as ASVK bullet machine gun bullet.
          But if we are talking about rifles for various types of special forces, then this is the same SV98 which is in service with many domestic law enforcement agencies, they may well use good imported cartridges for sniper shooting. Although maybe we are releasing some I don’t know.
      3. Revolver
        Revolver 14 June 2020 02: 53 New
        +2
        Quote: Yarhann
        you can’t do anything from RPK SVD even if you screw the same sight

        Romanians made just from the PKK.
        https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSL_(винтовка)
        And if you want in more detail, then in English
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSL_(rifle)
        1. Yarhann
          Yarhann 14 June 2020 08: 16 New
          +1
          yes the gypsies are the greatest gunsmiths of all time and peoples, craftsmen in many conflicts, the sights were attached to the PKK and PKM)) the machine gun did not become an SVD
          1. Revolver
            Revolver 14 June 2020 08: 29 New
            +1
            Nevertheless, they are bought in the United States, the price is about $ 1500 for second-hand in good condition. SVD in the same condition starts at $ 5000.
            1. Yarhann
              Yarhann 14 June 2020 08: 35 New
              0
              who buys them KMP, the National Guard, infantry, and for what?
              1. Revolver
                Revolver 14 June 2020 08: 37 New
                +1
                Private individuals. In particular, I can if I want. But I'm not a hunter, but for self-defense, the short barrel is more suitable.
                1. Yarhann
                  Yarhann 14 June 2020 08: 45 New
                  +2
                  So where do you come to the military and police units, private traders can buy flinty muskets even though they still have no effect on anything.
                  1. Revolver
                    Revolver 14 June 2020 08: 55 New
                    +1
                    While private individuals have a huge selection. They vote for the quality of weapons (and any product in general) with their money. If they buy something, it means that it costs that money.
                    1. ProkletyiPirat
                      ProkletyiPirat 14 June 2020 14: 06 New
                      0
                      Quote: Nagan
                      vote with your money

                      And someone votes their lives in battle, so loot is not an indicator ...
                      1. Revolver
                        Revolver 14 June 2020 18: 34 New
                        +2
                        Quote: ProkletyiPirat
                        And someone votes their lives in battle, so loot is not an indicator ...

                        Few people go into battle on their own, usually by order of higher authorities. Moreover, as a rule, they don’t choose weapons, but fight with the fact that this authorities deign to provide. So the comparison of the battle with voting for weapons is inappropriate. But they go to the store of their own free will, and they buy not what they order, but what they like for the money they ask for it.
                      2. ProkletyiPirat
                        ProkletyiPirat 14 June 2020 19: 28 New
                        0
                        Yeah, everything is correct, including in the opposite direction, those who go to the store, they go to shoot, and not fight, and they do not have those problems that a fighter on a LDP has. For example, the stores do not take into account the destruction of the cartridge plant, the shutdown of the plant for purifying (stabilizing) gunpowder ingredients and the shutdown of the metallurgical plant, which controls the stability of the plastic properties of the metal. This is me about big uncles in uniform choosing "bad cartridges and weapons." If we go back to the individual shooter, then the shopkeeper, unlike the soldier in the theater of operations, does not take into account the use of other weapons, primarily small artillery such as mortars.
                        So not everything is as simple and straightforward as you think ...
  • Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 12 June 2020 14: 20 New
    +7
    Ingeniously:
    it is necessary to replace the barrel, since an attempt to shoot a 7,62 cartridge from a weapon designed to fire 5,56 will lead to very disastrous consequences.
    1. Uncle lee
      Uncle lee 12 June 2020 14: 32 New
      +6
      Quote: Zaurbek
      attempt to shoot

      You need to be able to drive the cartridge 7,62 into 5,56, and only then look at the deplorable consequences ... Even without shooting!
      1. really
        really 12 June 2020 21: 45 New
        +4
        There are strong people wassat
    2. Free wind
      Free wind 12 June 2020 14: 37 New
      0
      Yes, everything is fine, and so it will. Pour a bag of cartridges into Tsar Cannon, but nothing terrible will happen. Well, it’s possible to drive a cartridge with a hammer, deplorable consequences, it’s certainly sad. Probably a long study was conducted.
  • Sancho_SP
    Sancho_SP 12 June 2020 14: 47 New
    +3
    And the answer is simple:

    The Americans left the full-fledged rifle 7,62-51 to the intermediate 5,56. And the USSR from an intermediate of 7,62-39 to 5,45. And if replacing a rifle cartridge with an intermediate one was obvious, then one intermediate is noticeable with another - no. So we argue.
  • Alexfly
    Alexfly 12 June 2020 14: 49 New
    +4
    I don’t even want to write about this nonsense ....
  • Slavs
    Slavs 12 June 2020 15: 13 New
    +3
    I would be happy if divorced:
    AEK - 7.62
    AK-12 - 5.45
    Well this is so, subjective Wishlist ...
    1. Nehist
      Nehist 12 June 2020 16: 00 New
      0
      AEK ... But haven't you given up on him? Shoving in a series of 1xx Kalashi?
      1. Slavs
        Slavs 13 June 2020 13: 36 New
        +1
        I say - Wishlist ...
        1. Nehist
          Nehist 13 June 2020 14: 37 New
          +2
          Sorry ... AEK is a good machine ...
  • Ryaruav
    Ryaruav 12 June 2020 15: 33 New
    +2
    I think 6,5 by 40 would not be a bad munition for mass weapons, but I can imagine how much was accumulated in the warehouses 7,62n39 and 5,45n39, but when that still have to make a choice
  • Vitaly Tsymbal
    Vitaly Tsymbal 12 June 2020 15: 35 New
    +9
    Again, not the needs of the army, but just business. The author correctly pointed out that for a motorized rifleman, tanker, artilleryman, sapper, something that is produced in large quantities and does not require rearmament is suitable, and for specialists - weapons and ammunition are needed "for a specific task." True, it should be recalled that the army consists mainly of combined arms, not specialists ... So, because of a small group of specialists, is it worth re-equipping the entire army? The military will say - no, the manufacturers will say - it is necessary. Some advocate the defense of the country, others - for getting new profits.
  • KSVK
    KSVK 12 June 2020 15: 39 New
    +3
    Quote: Kot_Kuzya
    The caliber 6,5 mm is neither fish nor meat.


    Well yes. Ballistics is not inferior, or even superior to x54, and the recoil is slightly stronger than 5,45. Now those who shoot sniper disciplines are massively switching to 6,5 different options. And the benefits of the SINGLE cartridge are just as obvious. Financial in the first place. There is a question with a punching action. But it is IMHO solvable. But armor-piercing incendiary bullets ... well, I don’t know how relevant they are now. And to put in a 6,5 steel heat-strengthened core is not a problem.
    1. Ingenegr
      Ingenegr 12 June 2020 16: 52 New
      +4
      Good external ballistic characteristics of bullets 6 ... 6,5 mm cartridges are determined by their lateral load, comparable to bullets 7 ... 9 mm live cartridges and sometimes even superior. In this case, the material of the core of the "sixes" is lead, which has a density of 11.34 g / cm ^ 3. When replacing the lead core with a steel one, which has a density of 1.45 times lower, the transverse load of the bullet, and therefore its bullet coefficient, will decrease by 20 ... 30%. This will entail a decrease in characteristics such as DPA and DES. In addition, to stabilize bullets of a different weight, it will be necessary to revise the inner contour of the existing barrels.
      In the development and production of ammunition, everything is not as simple as it seems. Many parameters have to be linked together, and compromise solutions have to be sought. So with "sixes" not everything is so easy and fast.
    2. Yarhann
      Yarhann 13 June 2020 14: 19 New
      -1
      how is it all just you at least read about the cartridge M855A which the Americans used in Afghanistan, all subsequent dances with a tambourine M855A1 and so on and so forth.
      Sniper disciplines with cartridges for machine guns))) you are, however, a joker. I'll tell you a secret sniper rifle cartridges have nothing to do with assault rifle cartridges except the caliber
  • Kolin
    Kolin 12 June 2020 15: 40 New
    -2
    Again, balabolstvo about 7,62x39.
    7,62 inferior to 5,45 in ballistics, lethal action and weight of the BC, while it is equal in armor penetration.
    1. Pessimist22
      Pessimist22 12 June 2020 16: 56 New
      -2
      Here, and so purely female logic, the more the better laughing
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. The comment was deleted.
    4. gumas
      gumas 12 June 2020 21: 21 New
      0
      almost 7.62 has only one plus, it has a stopping effect more than 5.45 but this is true for the police and not for the army.
  • illi
    illi 12 June 2020 15: 41 New
    +4
    What an illiterate article.
    1. Ingenegr
      Ingenegr 12 June 2020 23: 22 New
      +1
      Quote: illi
      What an illiterate article.

      This author is not very competent in the issue of which he writes. Yes, and does not want to learn, unfortunately.
  • KSVK
    KSVK 12 June 2020 15: 44 New
    0
    Quote: dzvero
    In the West, they seem to have developed 7.62x35 and 7.62x40. And if the second is more likely for hunting, then the first is positioned as an analogue of 7.62x39. True, NATO is not in service, but there is a backlog.


    Is it about 300Blackout? He does not have a single chance to get into arms. This is a purely hunting cartridge. And not for nothing that NATO is now thinking about 6,8 mm.
  • Nehist
    Nehist 12 June 2020 15: 45 New
    +4
    I just started reading the article and immediately realized who was writing ... Dear Ilya Polonsky !!! Kindly familiarize yourself with the history and evolution of small arms before writing such blatant nonsense ...
  • KSVK
    KSVK 12 June 2020 15: 53 New
    +1
    Quote: Hunter 2

    The creation of an intermediate cartridge analogue of 243 cal NATO - a promising direction, but - Costly!


    There is no such cartridge in NATO. .243 is the sleeve of the 308th shrunken to a caliber of 6 mm.
    IMHO is a very highly specialized cartridge. Small and light (relatively) bullet and large charge of gunpowder. High speed, great barrel wear, water hammer when working on "meat", no over-the-counter action.

    Quote: Hunter 2

    Russia still needs to deal with the release of Quality gunpowder!


    You shouldn’t be so. Now Kazan powder factory produces very worthy of gunpowder. Including dibasic. And even with thermal dependence a lot of work has been done. So imports like Vikhta and IMRo-Varget are not much inferior.
  • KSVK
    KSVK 12 June 2020 17: 30 New
    +4
    Quote: ggen

    Nothing like this. The same Hrundel is inferior even to the poor cartridge of 7,26x39 mm.

    This is not true. Just think, the sleeve is the same bullet lighter than the bullet-free bullet or similar, or more with 6,5. The speed is higher than the initial one at 6,5. What is the advantage of the seven?
    Quote: ggen

    The effective hit range of the 5,56x45 mm cartridge is MUCH MORE THAN the DEP of both the Grendel cartridge (6,5 mm) and the 6,8 Remington cartridge for Barrett.

    Well, the grendel is still x39, and 5,56 is x45. Let's compare then at least with 6,5x47 paw. wink And here there is already another calico. And you must count with a grendel. And about any "much more" there is no talk.
    Quote: ggen

    And also much further than the DEF of cartridges 7,62x39 mm and 5,45x39 mm.
    Since all these cartridges (Grendel (6,5 mm), 6,8 Remington, 7,62x39 mm) are intermediate, and the cartridge is 5,45x39 mm assault. Those. cartridges of the same class. A 5,56x45 mm cartridge, he is an infantry. Those. another class.

    But this is generally ... "assault", "infantry" ... wassat
    Read less on Wikipedia. yes
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 12 June 2020 19: 19 New
      +3
      Quote: KSVK
      But this is generally ... "assault", "infantry" ... Read less Wikipedia.

      This "specialist" has picked up all information and from dubious sources, and thinks to hit someone here. Although any military professional understands that small arms do not affect the actions of the modern Russian army at all, and it would never occur to anyone to send infantry to storm enemy positions without first destroying them with artillery and aviation. In general, another storyteller from the series that everything is bad with us, but the American army is such a cool thing ...
      True, their entire army was tackled in Syria, and no best cartridge helped them destroy Assad with his Kalashnikovs - this is the answer to all the conclusions of this dreamer.
      1. bunta
        bunta 12 June 2020 23: 54 New
        +6
        Quote: ccsr
        This "specialist" has picked up all kinds of information

        this "specialist" periodically appears here under various difficult-to-read nicknames. But mostly known as "Corbine". I don't know why you and him are getting involved in the discussion at all. An ordinary troll. Everyone's already tired of it. You need to ban immediately.
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 13 June 2020 09: 59 New
          0
          Quote: bunta
          I don’t know what you are getting into a discussion with him at all.

          I didn’t know anything about him before these texts, but judging by the nonsense that he is talking about, it’s obvious that he was “savvy” in the right direction. Now it is clear where the legs grow from - I understood that not everything is clean here, but now, thanks to the clarification, I realized that the saying about throwing beads does not lose its relevance in communicating with this client.
  • Mark kalendarov
    Mark kalendarov 12 June 2020 17: 33 New
    +2
    I don’t understand one thing. Weapons are primarily, in my opinion, utility and expediency. If I have a better weapon, then I'm done. If the enemy has a better one, he took his weapon, "copied" and again I'm done. Ideological reasons seem to be fading into the background ... "The best means Soviet", etc.
    So here. Americans are working on feces. 6.8. We are working on feces. 6.5.
    So it can take 6.8 and not fence the garden ... Moreover, nobody forbade using trophies. Or in case of shortage, through third parties it’s stupid to buy millions of rounds of ammunition ... And? How? Or is 6.5 our everything? ...
    1. Avior
      Avior 12 June 2020 17: 53 New
      -1
      Sometimes designers consider even a small difference important for their purposes.
      Cartridge 7,65 Borchard turned into 7.63 Mauser, 7.62TT, 7.65 Luger- and their variations with slight changes.
    2. SVD68
      SVD68 12 June 2020 18: 29 New
      +3
      Quote: Mark Kalendarov
      So here. Americans are working on feces. 6.8. We are working on feces. 6.5.
      So it can take 6.8 and not fence the garden ...

      And why did you decide that American weapons are better?
      1. Mark kalendarov
        Mark kalendarov 12 June 2020 20: 51 New
        0
        Just of the two strong ones, someone should also be cunning, and economical, and just smart ...)))
        All the best!!!
        1. SVD68
          SVD68 13 June 2020 08: 00 New
          0
          Quote: Mark Kalendarov
          Just of the two strong ones, someone should also be cunning, and economical, and just smart ...)))

          Your hints are incomprehensible. Speak directly.
          In the meantime, our rifle, based on two rounds: 5,45x39 for combat up to 400 m for mass infantry and 7,62x54 for combat up to 800 m for well-aimed shooters, is better.
    3. illi
      illi 13 June 2020 06: 42 New
      +1
      So here. Americans are working on feces. 6.8. We are working on feces. 6.5.

      What kind of cartridge are we working on? Did I miss something? It seems like 6.5x6 periodically pops up on the runet, I first hear about work on 49.
  • Alex 1970
    Alex 1970 12 June 2020 17: 42 New
    +4
    With an increase in caliber, does the barrel only need to be changed? But the chamber, the bolt group, finally the store, isn’t it necessary? But will the weight distribution of the weapons change, because the thickness of the barrel wall will increase, and the accuracy of the fire may change accordingly. Well, these are my amateurish thoughts, maybe that’s not so.
  • Sergei Novozhilov
    Sergei Novozhilov 12 June 2020 18: 26 New
    +1
    The term "assault rifle" was coined by Hitler and I do not like it. Now the infantry war is being fought at distances of 700 m, and this is the distance for Korda, SVD, PKP. Most of the wounds are received by the infantry from AGS-17, AGS_30 and mortars. AK assault rifles are melee weapons up to 300 m, since it is no longer visible with the naked eye.
    1. gumas
      gumas 12 June 2020 20: 59 New
      0
      the war is changing, now they rarely fight in an open field, where you can be covered with anything, and in buildings or wooded areas, the distance is rarely more than 500 m.
  • DrVintorez
    DrVintorez 12 June 2020 18: 54 New
    +3
    "7,62 mm cartridges continue to be used in special forces. After all, they are more penetrating."
    Count author for ignorance of materiel. 7.62 worse in penetration.
    1. illi
      illi 13 June 2020 06: 56 New
      0
      Well, yes, the author all mixed up horses people. Obviously he wanted to say that they are superior to 5.45 in stopping power. What is more important for the assault unit.
  • Vovanya
    Vovanya 12 June 2020 19: 13 New
    +1
    since an attempt to shoot a 7,62 cartridge from a weapon designed to fire 5,56 will lead to very disastrous consequences.

    Captain obvious.
    1. gumas
      gumas 12 June 2020 20: 37 New
      +1
      yes, it would be funny to see how the author is trying to do this in reality laughing
  • ssergey1978
    ssergey1978 12 June 2020 19: 40 New
    -2
    There is no more successful and universal cartridge than 7.62x39 mm. It must be returned without options.
  • gumas
    gumas 12 June 2020 20: 31 New
    0
    for me personally, AK 74 became love from the first shot, I forgot about AKM immediately and forever.
  • acetophenon
    acetophenon 12 June 2020 21: 52 New
    +2
    It is necessary to replace the barrel, since an attempt to shoot a 7,62 cartridge from a weapon designed to fire 5,56 will lead to very disastrous consequences.

    It was necessary to put these words at the beginning of the article. Then I would not waste time reading it.
  • KSVK
    KSVK 12 June 2020 21: 53 New
    +1
    Quote: Ingenegr
    Good external ballistic characteristics of bullets 6 ... 6,5 mm cartridges are determined by their lateral load, comparable to bullets 7 ... 9 mm live cartridges and sometimes even superior. In this case, the material of the core of the "sixes" is lead, which has a density of 11.34 g / cm ^ 3. When replacing the lead core with a steel one, which has a density of 1.45 times lower, the transverse load of the bullet, and therefore its bullet coefficient, will decrease by 20 ... 30%. This will entail a decrease in characteristics such as DPA and DES.


    Believe me, you are mistaken. Let's look at the example of Hornadi bullets.
    ELD-M caliber .30 (7,62mm) weight 208grn. BC G1 = 0.690
    https://www.hornady.com/bullets/rifle/30-cal-308-208-gr-eld-match#!/
    In general, this is a bullet for 300 wines magician and 10 "twist. But personally I myself launched it in caliber 308 (almost 7,62 nato) with an accuracy of 0,3 arc minutes from an 11" twist. The speed, however, was about 700 m / s. I calmly launch 178 UAH at a speed of 800+ m / s. And by the way, the ELD-M weighing 178 UAH, which is the "limiting" weight for the 308th caliber, has a BC G1 of only 0,547.
    ELD-M caliber .264 (6,5mm) weight 147 UAH BC G1 = 0.697
    https://www.hornady.com/bullets/rifle/6.5mm-.264-147-gr-eld-match-2000#!/
    I can’t say anything from personal experience, because I do not have 6,5 caliber, but I heard from respected shooters that this bullet was successfully launched in the x47 paw.
    As you can see, the identical bullets in terms of design and composition have a very similar BC.
    So the maxim about the steel core doesn’t roll. wink
    Quote: Ingenegr

    In addition, to stabilize bullets of a different weight, it will be necessary to revise the internal contour of existing trunks.

    KANEchnna. At least the caliber is different, yes. Just do not see the problem of making trunks with a caliber of 6,5 mm instead of making trunks 5,54 and 7,62 mm. Even more profitable is a single caliber. smile
    Quote: Ingenegr

    In the development and production of ammunition, everything is not as simple as it seems. Many parameters have to be linked together, and compromise solutions have to be sought. So with "sixes" not everything is so easy and fast.

    Of course. However, the temptation to have ONE ammunition for a machine gun / machine gun / Marxman rifle is very great. The savings will be VERY solid. Even with variations of twists / bullets / ODP. And of course there will be questions with back-fire, armor penetration, recoil, etc. etc. But again, when it comes to replacing 3 !!! 2 ammunition !!! different calibers for 1 !!! ammunition 1 !!! single caliber, IMHO the game is worth the candle.

    Threat and yes, we do not take “specialists” into account. Too specific and sometimes mutually exclusive tasks are set for them. Let there be SP-shki in different variations, Shafts, Screw cutters, nines, etc. etc. yes
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 13 June 2020 10: 16 New
      0
      Quote: KSVK
      Just do not see the problem of making trunks with a caliber of 6,5 mm instead of making trunks 5,54 and 7,62 mm.

      There is a very big problem - after the adoption of a new caliber, we will be armed with three calibers of ammunition at the same time for 10-15 years, taking into account our long-term stocks of various weapons. That's why you need to choose one of the two existing ones and take it as the basis for creating a new weapon - this will be most optimal. I am inclined to believe that the new cartridge should have a caliber of 7,62, but at the same time create a set of different gunpowders in order to get high speed of the initial flight of a bullet, for example, for a sniper rifle and machine gun. I think the strength of our gunsmiths is in my opinion, since we have traditions, and the industry now has orders from the Ministry of Defense.
    2. Ingenegr
      Ingenegr 13 June 2020 20: 25 New
      +2
      Quote: KSVK
      Believe me, you are mistaken.

      Specifically, in what thesis? Please specify.
      Quote: KSVK
      Let's look at the example of Hornadi bullets.

      Let's watch.
      Quote: KSVK
      ELD-M caliber .30 (7,62mm) weight 208grn. BC G1 = 0.690

      Quote: KSVK
      ELD-M caliber .264 (6,5mm) weight 147 UAH BC G1 = 0.697

      Lateral load of a bullet .30 PN = 208 / (0/82 * 7.85 ^ 2) = 4.12 gn / mm ^ 2
      Lateral load of a bullet .264 PN = 147 / (0.82 * 6.7 ^ 2) = 3.99 gn / mm ^ 2
      The lateral load value is decisive in the BC value if we compare structurally similar bullets having similar shape factors.
      The difference in lateral load is 3%. Higher (by 1%) BC bullet .264 due to its slightly more advanced aerodynamic shape. In general, bullets are parity and should fly at the same speeds plus or minus the same. But the 6.5-mm 147-grain bullet is launched at speeds of 800-820 m / s, and the 7.62-mm 208-grain bullet can be thrown out at 720 meters maximum on a conventional sleeve. And in such a situation, a 6.5 mm bullet has a significant advantage. These are purely match and rather expensive bullets, and no one will shoot them with a machine gun. no economy can stand it. Therefore, machine-gun bullets will have steel cores, the specific gravity of which in a pool having a smaller caliber will be greater. This means that the lateral load of a bullet with a smaller caliber will drop faster than a bullet of a large caliber. And this state of affairs leads to a faster decrease in CD.
      Quote: KSVK
      Just do not see the problem of making trunks with a caliber of 6,5 mm instead of making trunks 5,54 and 7,62 mm

      It was not about calibers, but about the need to revise such parameters as the width of fields / grooves and their pitch ("twist" in a newfangled way).
      Quote: KSVK
      Of course. However, the temptation to have ONE ammunition for a machine gun / machine gun / Marxman rifle is very great. The savings will be VERY solid. Even with variations of twists / bullets / ODP. And of course there will be questions with back-fire, armor penetration, recoil, etc. etc. But again, when it comes to replacing 3 !!! 2 ammunition !!! different calibers for 1 !!! ammunition 1 !!! single caliber, IMHO the game is worth the candle

      Yes, the temptation is great. And in the late 80s, similar experiments in the USSR were carried out with 6.2 mm ammunition. But it is rightly noted that "there will be questions." It is extremely difficult to solve them in a complex manner, if they are solved in principle within the framework of the traditional scheme of throwing a striking element. Although the idea of ​​a single ammunition for the entire system of small arms of the squad-platoon is really extremely interesting and profitable.
  • KSVK
    KSVK 12 June 2020 22: 28 New
    +5
    Quote: ggen
    ... the USSR only had the AK mechanism made by the Germans.


    Well yo mine. Again (a woman with reduced social responsibility) is the same. Well, how much can you?
    Well, look not at the appearance, but at the device.

    So who did what to whom?
  • Radius
    Radius 13 June 2020 06: 09 New
    +2
    "...
    7,62 mm cartridges continue to be used in special forces. After all, they have a greater penetrating ability. "This is not so. A bullet of a larger caliber has a greater stopping effect, and not penetrating ability.
  • revnagan
    revnagan 13 June 2020 10: 44 New
    -1
    "Flat trajectory" ... how's that? recourse . Perhaps meant flatness?
  • Alexander Samoilov
    Alexander Samoilov 13 June 2020 11: 20 New
    -2
    Our horses, as always, walk quietly. In other countries, bicaliber rifles are already in service. negative
    1. Tank hard
      Tank hard 13 June 2020 21: 20 New
      -1
      Quote: Alexander Samoilov
      Our horses, as always, walk quietly. In other countries, bicaliber rifles are already in service.

      Do not think that you are smarter than others, this is not true. request Modular designs of small arms have been known and used for a long time. And Russia is not on its most recent roles. But any complication of the design leads to a decrease in the reliability of the weapon. And what is suitable for some special forces often does not need a mass user. And all this costs money. Personally, my choice of amateur:
      In the city it is Kalash 7.62X39
      Outside the city of Kalash 5.45X39
      Why? - But because!
      It is absolutely laziness to engage in educational program.
      IMHO. wink
      1. Alexander Samoilov
        Alexander Samoilov 14 June 2020 07: 19 New
        -2
        The only thing I can agree with is the choice of an amateur. laughing What roles is Russia here? And there is no prototype of bicaliberka. Although they are in the state, even Poland and the Czech Republic. And where are mass users fighting now? Only in the ranks of illegal armed groups. In the same Syria, that in the Coalition, that we have only pros. The SA itself is simply a large partisan detachment. The days of draft armies are irrevocably a thing of the past. In the city, any intermediate cartridge sucks. In the forest, by the way, too. They break through the laying in one brick and the reinforced concrete panel (if they do not fall into the reinforcement), but they no longer have any backward action. In Vietnam and Borneo, the Americans and the British blamed the M-16, not so much for the automatic system requiring constant maintenance, but because their cartridges did not hit the enemy, who was hiding behind medium-sized trees at short, in general, forest battle distances. But the old M-14 hit the target both behind the wall and behind the trunk of a century-old banyan tree.
        1. Tank hard
          Tank hard 14 June 2020 13: 22 New
          -1
          Quote: Alexander Samoilov
          What roles is Russia here? And there is no prototype of bicaliberka. Although they are in the state, even Poland and the Czech Republic. And where are mass users fighting now? Only in the ranks of illegal armed groups. In the same Syria, that in the Coalition, that we have only pros. The SA itself is simply a large partisan detachment. The days of draft armies are irrevocably a thing of the past. In the city, any intermediate cartridge sucks. In the forest, by the way, too. They break through the laying in one brick and the reinforced concrete panel (if they do not fall into the reinforcement), but they no longer have any backward action. In Vietnam and Borneo, the Americans and the British blamed the M-16, not so much for the automatic system requiring constant maintenance, but because their cartridges did not hit the enemy, who was hiding behind medium-sized trees at short, in general, forest battle distances. But the old M-14 hit the target both behind the wall and behind the trunk of a century-old banyan tree.

          Not so long ago, in "hanza", an "expert" like you commented on a post of one person using the notorious word "bloodstock" in all seriousness. After which his opinion ceased to interest even such amateurs as me. Now about the same situation with you. Farewell. hi
      2. ProkletyiPirat
        ProkletyiPirat 14 June 2020 14: 17 New
        -1
        Quote: Tank Hard
        But any complication of design leads to a decrease in reliability

        A typical statement of a typical layman, repeated and extended to a lot of "omniscient" heads, including those under-engineering ....
        Well, a banal example: bolt connection of two parts, we complicate the design by adding two lock washers with antennae, number of parts = increased, complexity of assembly = increased, cost = increased, and reliability decreased or increased? hi that's it .....
        1. Tank hard
          Tank hard 14 June 2020 15: 15 New
          -1
          Quote: ProkletyiPirat
          A typical statement of a typical layman, repeated and extended to a lot of "omniscient" heads, including those under-engineering ....

          You like to the "gifted" intellectual I will say so. A fixed is always more reliable than a folding one, even if the lock on a folding one is a "triadlock". Super-engineers will take it ... tongue
          1. ProkletyiPirat
            ProkletyiPirat 14 June 2020 16: 04 New
            -1
            Quote: Tank Hard
            Fixed .. folding,. "Triadlock"

            1)ознакомьтесь с понятием "Ложная дилемма" https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9B%D0%BE%D0%B6%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BC%D0%BC%D0%B0
            2) the strength of a knife is measured by its strength, and not by the presence or absence of the "folding" function.
            In general, it is unnecessary to measure the temperature of parrots, distance and volume are also unnecessary ...
            1. Tank hard
              Tank hard 14 June 2020 18: 09 New
              -2
              Quote: ProkletyiPirat
              2) the strength of a knife is measured by its strength, not the presence or absence of the "folding" function

              Klitschko is not your relative? wink About the design and stuff I won’t ... repeat
        2. Alexander Samoilov
          Alexander Samoilov 14 June 2020 16: 28 New
          -2
          The antennae are needed by the puck, like a fish suit. They do not affect reliability in any way. But they do not improve it. bad example.
          1. ProkletyiPirat
            ProkletyiPirat 14 June 2020 18: 36 New
            -1
            Uv Alexander, the antennae are bent in different directions and this prevents spontaneous unwinding relative to each other and the part (vibration and / or temperature unwinding).
            here for clarity

            1. Alexander Samoilov
              Alexander Samoilov 15 June 2020 13: 02 New
              -2
              Unwinding the puck? So she does not screw on. laughing
              1. ProkletyiPirat
                ProkletyiPirat 15 June 2020 17: 29 New
                -1
                But the locking lock washers do not scroll, but the friction lock washers, or ordinary washers, may well ...
                1. Alexander Samoilov
                  Alexander Samoilov 15 June 2020 19: 10 New
                  -1
                  What's the difference? The nut or bolt head holds the washer. Only a castrated cat, who had absolutely nothing to do, could come up with them to stop them.
                  1. ProkletyiPirat
                    ProkletyiPirat 15 June 2020 19: 46 New
                    -2
                    ah ha ha laughing eeeee, lol this is your level of lack of education in engineering sciences. Yes, and not the ability and / or unwillingness to read other people's posts ....
                    Come on, I even highlighted in parentheses above:
                    Quote: ProkletyiPirat
                    (vibrating and / or temperature untwisting).

                    Well, you google this engineering video course, there are animations, there is information about various locking mechanisms, in this case you need to familiarize yourself with friction (friction) and locking washers and their differences relative to each other.
                    Well, for absolutely mediocrity in engineering, this clip advertises a lock friction-wedge (pseudo-blocking) washer
                    1. Alexander Samoilov
                      Alexander Samoilov 15 June 2020 22: 02 New
                      -1
                      You would at least see yourself taking off. Where is there about the antenna? Or have you already written wedges in them? crying good
                      1. ProkletyiPirat
                        ProkletyiPirat 15 June 2020 23: 32 New
                        -2
                        You wrote in the post above? I quote:
                        Quote: Alexander Samoilov
                        The nut or bolt head holds the washer

                        the video clearly shows that during vibrations, neither the nut, nor the bolt, nor itself, nor the parts, nor the washers, are held in principle. For other locking methods, including locking lock washers, look in the engineering courses I wrote about above, there it is chewed in detail with many variations and nuances. I couldn’t find video materials in Russian precisely by means of blocking washers (our universities do not make such video materials), and I am too lazy to chew such simple things to inappropriate people like you. I no longer respond to your trolling on a sim.
  • dgonni
    dgonni 13 June 2020 12: 27 New
    0
    Smiled. There will be a flatter path. And moderators missed IT?
  • Tank hard
    Tank hard 13 June 2020 21: 10 New
    0
    For example, it can be a 6,5 mm caliber, which will have a higher penetration capacity than 5,45, but at the same time will have a flatter trajectory than 7,62. But how much will such a "reform of calibers" cost ...

    Even Fedorov developed his machine gun (1913-1916) under the 6mm cartridge, justifying this caliber. However, what we have is what we have. The transition to a new unitary cartridge-caliber is very expensive. I think we will remain with the former. hi
  • aviator6768
    aviator6768 13 June 2020 23: 19 New
    0
    And let’s say that whoever determines the caliber based on the image can tryndet .... I remember that the battalion commander came to the point and when he saw me loose in the nightstand (well, seven horns ...) - in my face ... That's it army, girls, was ... By the way, twice the order bearer ... (Stars), but I do not hold back evil on him ...
  • Mikhail3
    Mikhail3 14 June 2020 11: 52 New
    +2
    Neighing. Excuse me...
    Not so long ago, the site had an article about why Russia often fought with Turkey. In this article, not a word was said about the real reason, but there was a lot of blabbering. And now an article on a serious issue ... with exactly the same set of "arguments"!
    The US military-industrial complex on the issue of small arms is in the classic trap of capitalism. Weapon factories are being built "for war". After saturation, they need to be stopped, leaving only small areas to replenish the loss and gradually fill the warehouses. This is correct ... but absolutely not capitalistically!
    Therefore, having saturated the market and faced with the prospect of stopping production, the capitalists, of course, forced the caliber down through the government! Particularly cute is that the main argument was ... pubs ... saving! They say lighter ammunition will lead to cheaper weapons! There was a stroke of genius, drag. General rearmament of the army - saving. The seas burn, the forests flow, the mouse drowned in stone ...
    The USSR, under the leadership of the Brezhnev team, looked at the United States as a god. Mainly because copying the United States is not about thinking for yourself. Where do people with party "education" get their thoughts from? This is not education at all, so the United States was the main source of "initiatives" in the USSR, including this brilliant idea. Well, etc.

    Guys. The change of calibres back and forth has nothing to do with any military reasons. This is just a way to milk the treasury. Nothing more. All other coincidences, as they say, are random ...
  • Crane
    Crane 14 June 2020 14: 30 New
    0
    Quote: Mikhail3
    The USSR, under the leadership of the Brezhnev team, looked at the United States as a god. Mainly because copying the United States is not about thinking for yourself. Where do people with party "education" get their thoughts from? This is not education at all, so the United States was the main source of "initiatives" in the USSR, including this brilliant idea. Well, etc.

    we can agree with this.
    But a decrease in caliber by 5 ...., still gives a decrease in the weight of the knowledge base, speed, flatness, etc.
    1. Mikhail3
      Mikhail3 15 June 2020 10: 46 New
      +1
      Yes. But in making the decision, all these undoubtedly important parameters did not play any role at all.
  • Alexander Samoilov
    Alexander Samoilov 16 June 2020 14: 22 New
    0
    Quote: ProkletyiPirat
    You wrote in the post above? I quote:
    Quote: Alexander Samoilov
    The nut or bolt head holds the washer

    the video clearly shows that during vibrations, neither the nut, nor the bolt, nor itself, nor the parts, nor the washers, are held in principle. For other locking methods, including locking lock washers, look in the engineering courses I wrote about above, there it is chewed in detail with many variations and nuances. I couldn’t find video materials in Russian precisely by means of blocking washers (our universities do not make such video materials), and I am too lazy to chew such simple things to inappropriate people like you. I no longer respond to your trolling on a sim.

    I can read the technical text in English, as in my own. So I would like to see real evidence.
  • would
    would 17 June 2020 14: 57 New
    0
    Cartridges of 7,62 mm continue to be used in special forces. After all, they are distinguished by greater penetration. In addition, where it is planned to shoot from a weapon with a silencer, a caliber of 7,62 mm, according to experts, is also more preferable


    1. Cartridge 7.62 has a lower penetration ability compared to 5.45. Known fact. By the way, the Soviet 7.62 (despite the larger caliber) is less stopping compared to NATO 5.56, this is a little-known fact. I have not seen comparisons with 5.45, but there is reason to believe that the result is identical.
    2. According to experts and the military themselves, when firing with a silencer, it is preferable to specifically use weapons under 9x39 - Val or Vintorez. The reasons for this opinion have long been described and that is why this special weapon was developed.

    Interestingly, in the West experts also preferred the old cartridge X 7,62 39, especially since almost all mass automatic rifles used by the armies of the North Atlantic Alliance can be quite easily upgraded for firing 7,62 mm rounds.


    These are revelations! It turns out that in the West, someone gave preference to the Soviet cartridge, rather than the standard for NATO 7.62x51. lol

    In general, after such childhood mistakes, it is impossible to take the article seriously.

    For example, it can be a caliber of 6,5 mm, which will differ in greater penetration than 5,45, but at the same time it will have more flat trajectorythan 7,62


    There are no comments at all.
    1. agond
      agond 17 June 2020 19: 24 New
      0
      Probably porpa understand that simply inventing a new caliber for an assault rifle will not expand its functionality, as it was and will remain an automatic carbine, and all sorts of possible pluses are more than compensated by minuses, it is vain to hope that an increase in caliber will make the assault rifle a more universal weapon, and if not will do, then why increase the caliber? it’s better to focus on creating smart sights with an image recognition system and highlighting the target in it, displaying the current point of impact (if the shot had been fired), with an automatic shot without pulling the trigger (if the point of coincidence coincided with the target), recording the image and parameters of the shot for its subsequent analysis, with high-resolution cameras working including in the near ultraviolet, of course, a smart sight should be small
  • Diverter
    Diverter 17 June 2020 22: 43 New
    +2
    5,45 and 7,62 calibers for all occasions. repeatedly tested in battles. For the gunner, it’s better to carry 5,45 behind him. For a mobilized squad sitting in a trench it is better to shoot at an advancing enemy with a caliber of 7,62. For snipers we are armed with various other calibers. For specialists - similarly. Why all this crap?