Military Review

ZRPK "Shell" against the UAV attack: weaknesses with the option of poor crew training

174

Losses in Syria and Libya of the Panzir (Panzir-C1) anti-aircraft missile and gun systems manufactured in Russia led to the need to learn important lessons from the situation. Of course, the notorious human factor plays a paramount role in the fact that Haftar forces in Libya and government troops in the SAR lost such weapons. However, it is important to understand here that the technical side of the issue is of no small importance.


The effectiveness of using "Armor" is inversely related to the amount aviation means of destruction that are targets for the ZRPK and for which the ZRPK itself acts as a target. In other words, the more planes and drones the enemy uses against the "Carapace", the less the complex has a chance to resist such an attack. Everything is logical. An important aspect is precisely in the simultaneous use of several shock UAVs.

For obvious reasons, if the Pantsir-C1 air defense missile defense system is “pulled out,” as they say, in the middle of the desert and at this moment cool in its shadow, then no technical advantages of the system will help.

But for ZRPK, an important issue is the reduction in deployment time. Given that one “Shell-C1” sometimes has to confront 4-5 drones (for example, Turkish “Bayraktar” in the mentioned Libya and Syria), then literally every second is important in this situation.

The advantage in detecting the target and the distance to use the Pantsir-C1 missile weapons over the same Bayraktar is on the side of the SAM system: 36 km in detection range, 18 km in anti-aircraft missile range (with a target altitude of up to 15 km). The Turkish UAV uses UMTAS anti-tank missiles with a launch range of no more than 8 km. But the deployment time, which is about 4,5 minutes, can be too long in preparation for a real battle with several UAVs, especially when you consider the “did not wait” option, which is not so rare for Arab realities. The deployment time when taking into account problems with crew training is the weak point of the complex.

In Syria, Turkish Bayraktar-TB2 fell "ripe pears" precisely at those moments when anti-aircraft missile and cannon systems were timely detected and when effective tactics of warfare were chosen with the shortest possible deployment time. This became a problem for the Haftar forces and for the SAA in Syria, especially when the number of shock drones simultaneously used by the PNS forces (actually Turkey) exceeded 3 units. Drones were sent from different directions and often introduced the operators of the "Shell" into a stupor. In the end, the ZRPK either managed to release missile ammunition (12 missiles) when a “head” drone appeared (and two or three others used the situation to deliver a striking blow), or simply was not deployed in a combat position. The volume of missile ammunition is not a weak point, if one thinks about its rational use.

It is worth noting here that in Russia there is a continuous improvement of the Pantsir air defense missile system. One of the modernizations is the Pantsir-SM, which detects targets already at a distance of 75 km, and strikes at a range of up to 40 km. In other words, while the UAV operator is just getting ready to choose a specific route and flight mode, the Carapace-SM crew is already able to take the drone on the fly and turn it into a pile of wreckage long before entering the zone from which it could launch a missile strike on an air defense missile system. But Russia is not in a hurry to share this option with an air defense system - in the first place, it is important to ensure that they arm their own air defense units.
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  1. Civil
    Civil 8 June 2020 17: 51 New
    +8
    The eternal war of the sword and shield.
    1. Bad thing
      Bad thing 8 June 2020 18: 00 New
      19
      And the eternal description of spherical horses on HBO.
      1. Demagogue
        Demagogue 8 June 2020 21: 33 New
        -5
        That's right, that's right. They threw a heap of abstract numbers.
        EPR of Bayraktara 0.1 m2. So Shell-s1 can detect it in only 7 km. In the open, Bayraktar and his ols have the advantage. Missiles with 8 km can already be launched.
        1. dvina71
          dvina71 8 June 2020 22: 18 New
          +7
          Quote: Demagogue
          EPR Bayraktara 0.1 m2

          The Shell has an optical channel .., which is an EPR drum.
          1. Demagogue
            Demagogue 8 June 2020 22: 37 New
            -5
            Bayraktar can also use mam ammunition from 14 km. At this distance, the drone may not be detected. And a realistic scenario of using several drones. One without armament with low EPR leads from afar, and the second makes a low-altitude breakthrough and starts mam, as soon as it leaves due to the radio horizon. No radar with afar anywhere, so they made a shell-see.

            1. Constructor68
              Constructor68 9 June 2020 08: 13 New
              +6
              No radar with afar anywhere, so they made a shell-see.

              There is still a belief among sofas experts that it is AFAR technology that increases the range of target detection. You at least read at your leisure about radar with AFAR and what exactly they have advantages. And then so boldly throw yourself with statements
              1. Cyril G ...
                Cyril G ... 9 June 2020 18: 19 New
                0
                Quote: Designer 68
                sofa experts still have faith

                That's right.
                You at least read at your leisure about radar with AFAR and what exactly they have advantages. And then so boldly throw yourself with statements

                +1000, only you think it will help?
            2. lucul
              lucul 9 June 2020 19: 17 New
              0
              And a realistic scenario of using several drones. One without armament with low EPR leads from afar, and the second makes a low-altitude breakthrough and starts mam, as soon as it leaves due to the radio horizon. No radar with afar anywhere, so they made a shell-see.

              To detect the Shell, from afar, and against the background of the earth, the drone must have a powerful radar that cannot be put on a small drone, simply because the radar consumes a lot of energy, and the dimensions of the drone will not allow you to put a powerful generator there.
            3. Yuriy Filatov
              Yuriy Filatov 27 June 2020 23: 05 New
              0
              And how does the radar with AFAR solve the problem with the radio horizon?
          2. Saxahorse
            Saxahorse 8 June 2020 23: 33 New
            +3
            Quote: dvina71
            The Shell has an optical channel .., which is an EPR drum.

            But optics are very interested in meteorological visibility, in a desert near the ground in clouds of dust, he may not see the target point-blank. All talk about the range, but the fact that the Shell has only two guidance channels is forgotten. When attacking from different angles, more than 90 degrees, there is simply nothing to capture the third UAV for the Carapace.
            1. Nikolaevich I
              Nikolaevich I 9 June 2020 07: 29 New
              +2
              Quote: Saxahorse
              in the Shell only two guidance channels are forgotten.

              Indeed, the developers talk about the "channel" of "Shell" somehow "vague", in my opinion ... "Critics", in turn, focus on the "low channel" of the complex! There is an opinion that "Pantsir" provides "good channeling" if it "fights with a crowd"; that is, it is "recommended" to use the air defense system immediately with the battery ... In all cases of the defeat of "Pantsir", it appears in the reports usually one air defense system ...!
              If you didn’t divide the pickled cucumber into 3 bottles of vodka, you still have to think about missiles with GOS, and the preference for a vertical launch, and about the method of accelerated reloading of PU ...
              1. Yuriy Filatov
                Yuriy Filatov 27 June 2020 23: 07 New
                0
                Um, how many guidance channels do you think will cope with a massive attack from all sides?
                And how many operators do you need for this?
                In addition, the ZUP Pantsir is not about "shot and forgot", but they need to be guided
          3. Cyril G ...
            Cyril G ... 9 June 2020 18: 17 New
            +1
            It’s interesting and where did 0.1 sq.m come from for a screw machine ... Either your interlocutor bought into propaganda or broadcast nonsense.
        2. lucul
          lucul 9 June 2020 19: 12 New
          +1
          EPR of Bayraktara 0.1 m2. So Shell-s1 can detect it in only 7 km. In the open, Bayraktar and his ols have the advantage. Missiles with 8 km can already be launched

          Laugh . And Bairaktar than the Shell will detect from 8 km? )))
          1. Saxahorse
            Saxahorse 9 June 2020 23: 01 New
            0
            Quote: lucul
            Laugh . And Bairaktar than the Shell will detect from 8 km? )))

            For example, a radio compass. laughing

            A running radar glows like a beacon in the night, hundreds of kilometers away.
            1. lucul
              lucul 10 June 2020 17: 34 New
              -2
              For example, a radio compass. laughing

              A working radar glows like a lighthouse in the night, for hundreds of kilometers

              What are you talking about? And if the Shell is turned on only OLS? )))
              1. Saxahorse
                Saxahorse 11 June 2020 21: 24 New
                0
                Have you tried reading above? What about dust and optics?


                Come on, turn on your optics .. wassat
                1. lucul
                  lucul 11 June 2020 22: 31 New
                  0
                  Come on, turn on your optics.

                  And? We launch our drone, for example, a quadrocopter, about 100 meters away on the Carapace (you can also use it on a tight connection) - its line of sight at this height is 30 km. And if not on a rigid coupling, then sending him to patrol him at a height of 200m around the perimeter of the Shell, pushes the radio horizon immediately up to 50 km. And voila - the Shell has an extra pair of eyes. And immediately for any UAV, life is sharply complicated ....
                2. Yuriy Filatov
                  Yuriy Filatov 27 June 2020 23: 08 New
                  0
                  In such weather, drones on earth will rest =)
                  1. Saxahorse
                    Saxahorse 28 June 2020 19: 10 New
                    0
                    Such garbage behind any column on the primer in dry weather to a height of a kilometer not lower. In the windward side, something is visible, in the leeward just dregs for the entire transition.
        3. Basalt
          Basalt 20 June 2020 15: 30 New
          +1
          I’ll supply the Saudi’s EPR Shell Armor - there are no radars in that configuration. And the optical channel requires operator work. In addition, the Armor cannot stop the ground offensive and flight calculations. Part of the equipment is damaged in hangars or taken when seizing positions.
    2. rocket757
      rocket757 8 June 2020 18: 16 New
      +5
      Eternal "war" ... the ram is the gate.
    3. Vicontas
      Vicontas 8 June 2020 19: 28 New
      21
      If "Shells" are not included in the system, then they must work in pairs or three - one works - two insure! Then it will not be excruciatingly painful when "Spike" or "Bayraktar" hits the attic!
    4. Alekseev
      Alekseev 8 June 2020 19: 43 New
      +5
      The war is eternal, but it always has been. Aircraft and tanks were easily destroyed by hundreds during the Second World War, although there were no ATGMs and air defense systems, if reconnaissance was not carried out, there was no interaction between the cover of the destroyers or the suppression of enemy defense. Or, for example, the suddenness of a strike is lost, as with a raid on airfields at the beginning of the Battle of Kursk. And all this is not only the quality of the equipment, but also the training of personnel from crew members, calculations to the management. Everything new is, you see, well forgotten old.
  2. Lopatov
    Lopatov 8 June 2020 17: 57 New
    19
    In a "duel" situation, a single "Shell" can only win by chance.

    The system should work.
    From detection tools, reconnaissance reconnaissance equipment, reconnaissance reconnaissance equipment, fire weapons, which affect UAV control points.
    And only as a "last line" - SAM. Including "Armor"
    1. rocket757
      rocket757 8 June 2020 18: 22 New
      +9
      Quote: Spade
      In a "duel" situation, a single "Shell" can only win by chance.

      Maybe not a duel?
      One on one, drone count the corpse .... at least the class that are used in the warhead.
      Here is a systemic, mass attack is a game of roulette, if EW will work with dorons, then OH!
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 8 June 2020 19: 13 New
        +7
        Quote: rocket757
        Maybe not a duel?
        One on one, drone count the corpse

        Well yes. put it a little wrong.

        The lonely "Shell" will definitely be "pushed through" in the end, if not teach calculations.
        1. rocket757
          rocket757 8 June 2020 19: 43 New
          +3
          Even a lonely complex, with a well-prepared, experienced crew, can be sold, but with large losses / expenses!
          1. Revolver
            Revolver 9 June 2020 07: 30 New
            +3
            Quote: rocket757
            Even a lonely complex, with a well-prepared, experienced crew, can be sold, but with large losses / expenses!

            The difference also lies in the fact that the drone operator sits with his ass in the easy chair of an air-conditioned control center and sips a coffee maker, and if he gets knocked down, he rests while a new drone is being prepared for departure. And the operator of the Carapace exposes his ass under the drone rockets, so there’s a bench press point.
            1. rocket757
              rocket757 9 June 2020 07: 47 New
              +2
              Quote: Nagan
              And the operator of the Carapace exposes his ass under the drone rockets, so there’s a bench press point.

              Because they run and throw ... in general, there is nothing to discuss there.
              What is the army, such are the results and no equipment there has helped before, will not help now.
      2. Tusv
        Tusv 8 June 2020 20: 42 New
        +5
        Quote: rocket757
        Here is a systemic, mass attack is a game of roulette, if EW will work with dorons, then OH!

        So not everyone has systems from attack. But she is simple. AWAC warns, readiness is announced number of times. Attendants are launched, both ground-based systems and aviation. And that’s it. Air defense for any water attackers. And not any roulette. Like we have. The targets were not yet lit up on the radar, but we know who they are and where they fly from and see our aircraft.
        And here the author writes about the deployment. Damn the change of position zhezh should also be covered. If everyone decided to light a hookah, and the means of attack do not see activity. That is already air defense as in a shooting range
        1. rocket757
          rocket757 8 June 2020 20: 54 New
          +3
          Quote: Tusv
          So not everyone has systems from attack. But she is simple.

          I have already written a hundred times that there is a full-fledged, comprehensive air defense ... but, to know one thing and to have it, it’s not very hard for anyone on the warhead to have and function properly. Although, is there at least something functioning properly ???
          1. Tusv
            Tusv 8 June 2020 21: 03 New
            +3
            Quote: rocket757
            I already wrote a hundred times that there is a full-fledged, comprehensive air defense ... but, to know one thing, and to have,

            And it's very expensive to own. What's the price. Well for us. One S-400 division is equivalent to five Su-35s per discounted. Plus a couple of Support Armor, EW. Well, according to the charter. One division is "resting", the other is working, then Sushki already needs somewhere 15
            1. rocket757
              rocket757 8 June 2020 21: 29 New
              +3
              There are those on BV who can buy, but then the same problem pops up .... the ram is the gate!
              So it was once, it continues the same way now.
      3. Grits
        Grits 9 June 2020 01: 40 New
        +4
        Maybe the air defense specialists will tell us which of our existing systems (Buk, Tor, Tunguska, Shilka, Osa, Derivation, Sosna) are prepared for such meetings with UAVs. In one-on-one and one-against-the-swarm modes. And compared to the Shell, their pros and cons.
    2. venik
      venik 8 June 2020 22: 06 New
      +1
      Quote: Spade
      In a "duel" situation, a single "Shell" can only win by chance.

      ======
      If the duel is one-on-one, then Pantsir has a very good chance against an aircraft with less than 6 missiles ...
      And in the OTHER - good drinks - Fights - SYSTEM !!! hi
      1. pmkemcity
        pmkemcity 9 June 2020 06: 28 New
        0
        Quote: venik
        If the duel is one-on-one, then Pantsir has a very good chance against an aircraft with less than 6 missiles ...
        And in the OTHER - - Fights - SYSTEM !!!

        The topic of technical readiness is not disclosed at all.
    3. Saxahorse
      Saxahorse 8 June 2020 23: 07 New
      -1
      Quote: Spade
      fire weapons hitting UAV control points.

      Especially here I support this item! It is a pity only until Istanbul, Haftaru will shoot far. laughing
  3. Borik
    Borik 8 June 2020 17: 57 New
    +4
    Teach, Teach And once again, these Arabs need to be taught, otherwise they will miss all the equipment. And not one year. Due to their incompetence, they began to consider our equipment flawed.
    1. rocket757
      rocket757 8 June 2020 18: 25 New
      +4
      Anyway, there will be ... a ram - a gate.
      So it was before ... nothing has changed since then.
      Even having made a fully automated system ... anyway, there will be some kind of ram, either the one that didn’t click the toggle switch or the ammunition that didn’t deliver on time.
      1. Yuriy Filatov
        Yuriy Filatov 27 June 2020 23: 09 New
        +1
        And in your shell can work 24/7 without maintenance and replenishment of fuel?
        1. rocket757
          rocket757 28 June 2020 10: 10 New
          0
          The question is, if you connect an external power source, how long can the "electrical installation" work? What are the limitations?
    2. Tusv
      Tusv 8 June 2020 20: 50 New
      +1
      Quote: Borik
      To teach And again, these Arabs need to be taught, otherwise they will miss all the equipment.

      What to teach them. The Emirates presented them with shells, and we only set the optical guidance channel on them. Not paid, that's not appreciated
    3. Parvis rasulov
      Parvis rasulov 9 June 2020 04: 51 New
      +2
      all the time you write an untrained crew here, and who then shot down all these UAVs in the skies of Libya and Syria and Yemen, who was sitting inside these air defense missile systems An armored crew?
      1. rocket757
        rocket757 9 June 2020 05: 16 New
        +1
        Quote: Parvis Rasulov
        all the time you write an untrained crew here, and who then shot down all these UAVs in the skies of Libya and Syria and Yemen, who was sitting inside these air defense missile systems An armored crew?

        This just shows that drones of this class, which are used there, are an easy target, even for a bar at a certain level of training.
        It was not a BOBIN !!! RA ACCOUNT such was sitting in the cockpit.
  4. really
    really 8 June 2020 17: 59 New
    +2
    And what kind of phrase - In the end, the ZRPK either managed to release missile ammunition (12 missiles) when a “head” drone appeared (and two or three others used the situation to deliver a striking blow), or simply was not deployed in a combat position. The volume of missile ammunition is not a weak point, if one thinks about its rational use.
    two
    1. pereselenec
      pereselenec 8 June 2020 18: 11 New
      +2
      Quote: really
      The volume of missile ammunition is not a weak point, if one thinks about its rational use.
      two


      They are. Having fired rockets, it remains unarmed against air:

      1. Yuriy Filatov
        Yuriy Filatov 27 June 2020 23: 12 New
        +1
        it’s not surprising to get at such a small target, he would have fuses in 30mm shells, then it would be easier
  5. yfast
    yfast 8 June 2020 18: 05 New
    +9
    Does anyone use guns there or are they for "looks cool"?
    1. loki565
      loki565 8 June 2020 18: 20 New
      +4
      He didn’t need guns, they were on Tunguska which was covering a tank breakthrough and could work on ground targets, as well as on large air-type helicopters. So the shell is better to deliver a package of missiles, as in this embodiment, only with the all-round station
    2. Klingon
      Klingon 8 June 2020 18: 27 New
      0
      if the drone launches a missile from 8 km, then the guns are useless. unless to try to bring down the rocket itself on the approach ...
      I think in the foreseeable future one of the guns (or both) will be replaced by a laser, if we say 350-500 kW, then under certain conditions it will have advantages
      1. ZAV69
        ZAV69 8 June 2020 20: 04 New
        +6
        Quote: Klingon
        if he says 350-500 kW, then under certain conditions he will have advantages

        That's when there will be a portable energy source with such a return and an on-board network with the ability to pump such power, then you can talk about the laser, and now it's fantastic
        1. Klingon
          Klingon 9 June 2020 00: 01 New
          +1
          I wrote - In the foreseeable future)) it may be in about 30-40 years. I made an analogy here: amateur drones of the 2015 model could fly for 8-10 minutes. And now they fly 25-30 minutes due to improved batteries. such an analogy can also be developed with a laser. And since more energy will be needed and the technology is more complicated, the handicap of 25-40 years is quite normal
        2. Constructor68
          Constructor68 9 June 2020 08: 22 New
          0
          That's when a portable power source with such a return appears

          And what does the current ICE-generator system not suit you? Or are you dreaming of nuclear-pumped lasers?
          1. ZAV69
            ZAV69 9 June 2020 08: 30 New
            0
            So a man wanted 300-500 kilowatts. Can you imagine its size?
            1. Constructor68
              Constructor68 9 June 2020 11: 41 New
              0
              Imagine. As an example, an F-35B drive shaft delivers 20MW of shaft power to a lift fan. To give out through a generator of 500 kW is not a particular problem.
              1. ZAV69
                ZAV69 9 June 2020 19: 09 New
                +1
                As an example, I raise a 3-sq. Generator at home. We loaded six square meters at work with the six of us. An old Soviet 15 kV diesel generator exists in the form of a trailer that was pulling 25 gas. What will be the size of the 66 kV generator in general the size of a container. He will go to a stationary position, but to a mobile complex ..... I doubt it.
                Drive shaft F-35B at what speed does this issue? And doubts gnaw me that there are 20 megawatts.
  6. Pvi1206
    Pvi1206 8 June 2020 18: 07 New
    -1
    automation is important, of course, but without dexterous calculation it is useless
  7. PSih2097
    PSih2097 8 June 2020 18: 11 New
    +2
    For obvious reasons, if the Pantsir-C1 air defense missile defense system is “pulled out,” as they say, in the middle of the desert and at this moment cool in its shadow, then no technical advantages of the system will help.

    So it seems that the developers talked about the option of automatic work (without operator participation) ZRPK or promises remained promises.
    But the deployment time, which is about 4,5 minutes, may be too long in preparation for a real battle with several UAVs

    and if they want to reduce the time for deployment, let them take "Tunguska". Although it will most likely be like the proverb "about the fool and the glass ..."
  8. Oleg kubanoid
    Oleg kubanoid 8 June 2020 18: 14 New
    +3
    as I understand it, the preference was still given to the shells ... as for me the torus is better.
  9. xomaNN
    xomaNN 8 June 2020 18: 17 New
    +3
    And remember the year 1967. Arabs corny about ... launched an Israeli attack. And hundreds of planes, dozens of Soviet-made air defense systems quite at the level of that time, were either captured by the enemy or defeated. Because it’s difficult for residents of Africa to master small arms laughing
    And now they are doing "anti-advertising" to our good air defense system hi
  10. svp67
    svp67 8 June 2020 18: 17 New
    +2
    Neither when nor any weapon was there a "wunderwaffe", except for the epic ones. And he had "weak points". And any armed confrontation is a comparison of how the soldiers of the opposing sides learned to use the strengths of their weapons and the weaknesses of the enemy's weapons.
  11. raki-uzo
    raki-uzo 8 June 2020 18: 28 New
    +1
    Most likely they were blinded by Corals in Syria. And in Libya - everything was dependent on tactics and operational success. And so one on one - Carapace of course - before he shoots.
  12. Strashila
    Strashila 8 June 2020 18: 28 New
    +2
    A single complex can always be crushed by the number of goals. It is logical to become an action with the Buk + 2 Armor + EW complex, any relocation only when covering the existing complex.
    1. georgiigennadievitch
      georgiigennadievitch 13 June 2020 19: 20 New
      0
      In general, any air defense in the fight against a technically equipped enemy must be organized in a comprehensive manner, including against drones, including the likely (not even the most advanced Turks) enemy, there are many of them, and there will be even more. Therefore, a single Carapace against several shock drones is already just a target. Proceeding from this, it is necessary not only to improve the performance characteristics of the system, but also the tactics of actions. Because the attack of drones can precede air strikes, and vice versa.
  13. SovAr238A
    SovAr238A 8 June 2020 18: 32 New
    -1
    Authors of the article about the horizon in the course?
    Well, even 150km didn’t write a detection range?
    more, more you need to write numbers ... What would the caps fall ...
  14. huntsman650
    huntsman650 8 June 2020 18: 58 New
    +2
    Disadvantages https://yandex.ru/turbo/s/bmpd.livejournal.com/197121.html
  15. nobody111body
    nobody111body 8 June 2020 19: 34 New
    +1
    So after all, the shortcomings of Russian weapons are savoring with particular poignancy - for some reason on this site there is no article about Turkish drones, their shortcomings are silent about their shortcomings and how many of them were shot down - as far as you can hear, one such dronchik costs the Turks and the Jews standing behind them in 12 mildol. but it's already good that they use it, but how in Syria this plane can be shot down and this nini is nizya in war like in war and it's time for the Saud Hussites to lupan to see their "patriot"
    1. Vol4ara
      Vol4ara 8 June 2020 23: 09 New
      0
      Quote: nobody
      one such dronik costs 12mildol to the Turks and the Jews behind them.

      So 1 shell at the price of 2010 $ 15 million
  16. alexmach
    alexmach 8 June 2020 19: 37 New
    +4
    For the Haftar forces of Syria, this became a problem, especially when the number of shock drones simultaneously used by the PNS forces (actually Turkey) exceeded 3 units. Drones were sent from different directions and often introduced the operators of the "Shell" into a stupor. In the end, the ZRPK either managed to release missile ammunition (12 missiles) when a “head” drone appeared (and two or three others used the situation to deliver a smashing blow), or simply was not deployed in a combat position

    Where are these fantasies from? Does the author have information about real combat use? so let her share it. No? what are you making up then?
  17. voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 8 June 2020 19: 37 New
    11
    "In Syria, Turkish Bayraktar-TB2 fell" ripe pears "precisely at those moments when anti-aircraft missile and cannon systems were timely detected ..." ////
    ---
    In Idlib, Turkish Baikatar operators passionately carried away by extermination
    armored vehicles, forgetting about enemy air defense. And they suffered losses.
    This lesson has been learned. In Libya before the offensive, there was a hunt for four days
    only on the shell.
    When the air defense was cleared, they began their usual work.
    1. alexmach
      alexmach 8 June 2020 20: 00 New
      +4
      In Idlib, Turkish Baikatar operators passionately carried away by extermination
      armored vehicles, forgetting about enemy air defense. And they suffered losses.

      yeah .. but switch to the hunt for air defense somehow to Libya did not guess.
    2. Oquzyurd
      Oquzyurd 8 June 2020 20: 15 New
      +2
      "carried away by extermination
      armored vehicles "It was an urgent need than something else. Air defense did not threaten cities and villages, and tanks, infantry fighting vehicles and artillery mounts really pressed on with pressure. On critical days, there was simply no time to look for air defense. Therefore, at the risk of being shot down, they beat on tanks and on self-propelled artillery. And in Libya there was time for planning, moreover, the enemy and the flow of refugees did not press so much.
    3. Cyril G ...
      Cyril G ... 9 June 2020 18: 31 New
      +1
      Air defense in the battle formations of the Syrians did not work. They are unaccustomed to this. As soon as they pulled up the air defense at once, everything was over. Significantly piled 2 Anki and 3 Bayraktara. Declared pieces 12.
  18. Parvis rasulov
    Parvis rasulov 8 June 2020 19: 47 New
    0
    Of course there will be losses since the complex is used alone, if it is used in pairs, and even better as part of the battery, then I am sure that if there are losses, then only after the munition is used up. I am sure that the shells that suffered the loss did not have ammunition or were struck at the stage of reloading or changing the location of the deployment. Yes, and the video shows that the defeat occurred in the hangar, which shows that this machine had banal ammunition. Then do not forget such a shelf life of the rocket, the Emirate Shell-S1E was delivered from Russia in the period from 2009 (UAE - 50 units 96K6, as of 2018. 50 units Shell-S1E and 1000 units 9M311 were delivered from Russia in the period from 2009 to 2013 (initially, the first delivery was planned for 2003)
    1. alexmach
      alexmach 8 June 2020 20: 03 New
      +3
      I am sure that the shells that suffered losses did not have ammunition or were hit at the stage of reloading or changing their location

      Does this confidence flow from a feeling of patriotism, or from something else?
      happened in the hangar which shows that

      Air defense system was hidden in the hangar from the enemy air attack
      1. Disant
        Disant 9 June 2020 02: 59 New
        +7
        alexmach, what does patriotism have to do with it - so far there are no videos with shell damage on the position - all defeats are on trailers, in heaped up hangars, when moving (changing position) with the radar turned off.
        Operators remove all attacks - if there were defeats - they WOULD immediately post them on the Internet
        1. alexmach
          alexmach 9 June 2020 08: 45 New
          0
          Well, it's just not true.
          There is a Jewish video of shelling of something fired at launching 2 rockets at an ammunition diving at him, either the Shell or the Thor argued for a long time.
          From the latest Libyan videos - there is clearly a defeat of the complex with a rotating surveillance radar, but in movement, over rough terrain, clearly occupied or changed position. But not on the track.
          1. Disant
            Disant 9 June 2020 11: 39 New
            +2
            alexmach, that's it - the two cases you cited -
            the first one, as you said, fights off with two missiles. It is UNEXPECTED that - there the missiles maneuver right away, and on the shell missiles the first seconds are accelerated in a straight line, and plus this story (and lying next to it at the same time from three or four pieces of video) - not about Turkish drones.
            second case
            there is clearly a defeat of the complex with a rotating surveillance radar,
            - the video starts from the moment that the shell is traveling, after 2 seconds. the radar is switched on, which barely manages to wave the radar a half-turn - and the BAH is a defeat. So the car did not have time to start defending itself.
            The owners of the shells have obvious problems with the tactics of using the machines (I'm not talking about separation and their supposedly correct use as part of a deep or shallow defense - the two machines are completely autonomous), reconnaissance, camouflage, radio masking. And counteraction to the electronic warfare means - there are already questions not to the crew of the shell - but to higher commanders who must resist this
            1. alexmach
              alexmach 9 June 2020 12: 08 New
              -1
              It is UNDERSTANDABLE that - there the missiles maneuver right away, and on the shell missiles the first seconds are accelerated in a straight

              Here is the first video that came up with shelling, rockets maneuver in the very first seconds of the flight. Although yes, it’s not entirely clear there.
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiGAJH0Jv14
              - the video starts from the moment that the shell is traveling, after 2 seconds. radar turns on

              The video is not very high quality, it is very difficult to consider what exactly is happening there. All I saw was a rotating radar, whether there was a turning on moment there, or it was spinning all the time I can’t say.

              But actually what are we arguing about? What anti-aircraft systems can I counter using modern weapons? And for someone it was not obvious from the beginning?
              1. Disant
                Disant 9 June 2020 15: 55 New
                +1
                But actually what are we arguing about?

                that at the moment there are no shell damage on the position
                You do not agree with this and objected to Parvis Rasulov, and I supported him.
                .
                https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=21&v=Qx_j2sMNMI4&feature=emb_logo
                All I saw was a rotating radar

                Well, how - it’s clearly visible - the 7th second - the BEGINNING of the RADAR ROTATION (in the center of the car), the 8th second - Bah-BAH - defeat.
                .
                Again, returning to the Israeli video a year ago, where it was UNKNOWN THAT - what was posted on the VO has already been deleted, found this, watch from 1.15
                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhDFyJG0hM8
                compare with your video - shell missiles even on your video do not begin maneuvering right away, but here - right away.
                .
                So the statement that this is a shell is wrong.
          2. Cyril G ...
            Cyril G ... 9 June 2020 18: 44 New
            0
            Jewish videos are better, there were attacks on the 2nd Armor. The armor was completely recognizable. The producers there are not stingy, and all the Turkish stories with a statement about the destruction of the Armor are nothing more than stories about the life of bacteria on a microscope glass. To decide that this is the Armor on the video, you need to have a strong fantasy.
            Yes, and Pantsyrya are different.
            1. Disant
              Disant 9 June 2020 20: 46 New
              +1
              Jewish videos are better, there were attacks on the 2nd Armor

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcOnK2mbgis
              here is the gluing of the three videos 1.05-1.35- what is visible there?
              The first insert, the Machine, is not visible. Missiles are not a shell. video intentionally blurry
              the second insert - something exploded and the video camera on the rocket also flew into this explosion.
              the third insert - the defeat of the shell, and Radar is not working - clearly visible.
              .
              video of a shell without a crew on the runway (road) with a crew standing nearby watch from 1.35 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_g8IrkwT7s0
              .
              but there are already about 6 Turkish videos, but they too with idle radar.

              The difference between the beatings of Israeli and Turkish videos is that the Turks hit the shell on the march, on the trailer, in the hangar, and the Israelis, judging by their comments and taking their videos IN FAITH, overloading the shell with attacking missiles and bombs at the same time or finishing off the shell without ammunition.
  19. Lord of the Sith
    Lord of the Sith 8 June 2020 19: 52 New
    +3
    As the saying goes, give an incompetent friend a glass of mmm ... a banana, he will cut his hands and break it)

    Our armor showed itself at the highest level.
    1. Oquzyurd
      Oquzyurd 8 June 2020 20: 21 New
      -4
      They didn’t show it, and they probably won’t buy it anymore. Maybe the crews were not trained, but there is no difference, since they are looking at the picture from the edge, and not looking for who was at the control panel.
      1. alexmach
        alexmach 8 June 2020 20: 35 New
        +4
        Not shown

        They showed, they showed.
        and they’ll probably not be bought anymore

        Yes and figs with him. The Russian Aerospace Forces have currently purchased more Shells than all other buyers combined. And they’ll buy it. The Armor order was critical in the 90s when they were brought at the expense of the UAE. Now they are rhythmically supplied to the troops and modernized.

        PS: oops was wrong, not so many of them are in Russia. Indeed, there are indeed more shells.
    2. Alexey from Perm
      Alexey from Perm 8 June 2020 21: 40 New
      +1
      where is it with you?
      1. Lord of the Sith
        Lord of the Sith 8 June 2020 21: 41 New
        +1
        In the Donbass.
        1. Alexey from Perm
          Alexey from Perm 8 June 2020 21: 43 New
          0
          Ukrainian aviation does not fly to d Donbass, with whom are you fighting there?
          1. Lord of the Sith
            Lord of the Sith 8 June 2020 21: 56 New
            0
            But the UAV flies. Yes, and aviation does not fly, because the sky is closed, and the Sumerians know this.
            1. Vladimir61
              Vladimir61 8 June 2020 23: 33 New
              0
              Don’t bring nonsense! Have you ever seen one in the Donbass? They were not even for suckers, in an inflatable version.
              1. Lord of the Sith
                Lord of the Sith 9 June 2020 00: 07 New
                +4
                I have seen. In Lugansk, and not only. And as you put it, "an inflatable version for suckers," this is to the point, for suckers-opponents who perceive a false target as real while the real complexes are working)
    3. Vol4ara
      Vol4ara 8 June 2020 23: 13 New
      0
      Quote: Lord of the Sith
      Our armor showed itself at the highest level.

      Aha


      In fairness, it is worth saying that this is a list of claims for 2012, many of them corrected. But apparently this is not enough, the complex is vulnerable, and I am afraid that the hands of the Arabs have nothing to do with it. Video of Jews about the attack of the shell with spikes in the conditions of a reb proves this. Afar will solve many problems ...
      1. Lord of the Sith
        Lord of the Sith 8 June 2020 23: 15 New
        +3
        Is this your personal conclusion?

        Well, that was a rhetorical question. But I personally saw how they shot down an aircraft. And you?
        And the armor was on the level.
        1. Vol4ara
          Vol4ara 8 June 2020 23: 19 New
          0
          Quote: Lord of the Sith
          Is this your personal conclusion?

          Well, that was a rhetorical question. But I personally saw how they shot down an aircraft. And you?
          And the armor was on the level.

          I also saw that in greenhouse conditions at the training ground everyone always succeeds. Then I watched a Jewish video, the main role is the same, but the targets are no longer training, we all remember the result.
          This is the text from the report "Assessment of the characteristics of the Pantsir-S1 air defense missile system." The authors of the report are V.V.Belotserkovsky, candidate of military sciences, associate professor (Air Defense Forces) and I.A. Razin (Air Defense Forces).
          1. Lord of the Sith
            Lord of the Sith 8 June 2020 23: 24 New
            +2
            Jewish video is authority now? Well, I'm sorry, I'm not a Jew. And it is unlikely that they have these complexes.

            Data sucked from the finger by some very muddy people.
            Although I don’t care. Do you want to consider that these complexes are not effective - please.
            The vigilance of the enemies must be put to sleep))
            1. Vol4ara
              Vol4ara 8 June 2020 23: 29 New
              0
              Quote: Lord of the Sith
              Jewish video is authority now? Well, I'm sorry, I'm not a Jew. And it is unlikely that they have these complexes.

              Data sucked from the finger by some very muddy people.
              Although I don’t care. Do you want to consider that these complexes are not effective - please.
              The vigilance of the enemies must be put to sleep))

              These muddy people work in the Russian Defense Ministry and this is a report at one of the open scientific and technical conferences of the Russian Ministry of Defense. That is, for you, a video where a spike detonates a shell, and when it fires, it fires 2 rockets into milk, is that not credibility? Do not believe your eyes already, or is the entire field of view covered with caps?
              1. Lord of the Sith
                Lord of the Sith 8 June 2020 23: 32 New
                +5
                Of course, as you say. This is the same video.
                Only my eyes saw a lot of things in reality. But you do not believe. Drink milk, calm down. Everything will be fine.
                1. Vol4ara
                  Vol4ara 8 June 2020 23: 38 New
                  0
                  Quote: Lord of the Sith
                  Of course, as you say. This is the same video.
                  Only my eyes saw a lot of things in reality. But you do not believe. Drink milk, calm down. Everything will be fine.

                  Yeah, is this really a video with the loss of the shell in Syria, recognized by the Russian Defense Ministry, or is it like filming with the Moon in Hollywood too?
                  When I worry, I’ll follow your advice, milk is good
                  1. Lord of the Sith
                    Lord of the Sith 8 June 2020 23: 39 New
                    +2
                    As you say. The main thing is not to worry.
                    1. Vol4ara
                      Vol4ara 8 June 2020 23: 41 New
                      0
                      Quote: Lord of the Sith
                      As you say. The main thing is not to worry.

                      My family is not so worried about you, thank you, I won’t worry
                  2. alexmach
                    alexmach 9 June 2020 00: 06 New
                    +2
                    Yeah, is this really a video with the loss of the shell in Syria, recognized by the Russian Defense Ministry, or is it like filming with the Moon in Hollywood too?

                    One single video does not solve anything, as well as other isolated cases of loss. The conclusions of the study are much more serious, by the way, these conclusions are described in one of the points exactly shown on the Jewish video.

                    Again, a sober analysis of the shortcomings and limitations of technology is necessary both for its improvement, and for the development of application tactics and technical tasks for creating new technology.

                    Well, some points in the list of shortcomings frankly are directly far-fetched. such as
                    5) the capabilities of the complex to defeat the TBR, OTR and their warheads when using a hypersonic missile with a warhead weighing 4 kg have not been confirmed

                    Well, one not the most expensive complex cannot cover everything at all. Although, as I understand it, this opportunity was written about by developers once it was announced.
    4. 3danimal
      3danimal 9 June 2020 10: 58 New
      0
      In at least two gears (military acceptance and one more) they showed the inability to work guns on a small flying target. In addition, radio command guidance of missiles, if there are electronic warfare on the ammunition (video from the Israeli Dalila), or on the drone, the guidance can also be disrupted. The needle here looks more preferable (or a rocket for the Shell with GOS Needles).
    5. Cyril G ...
      Cyril G ... 9 June 2020 18: 45 New
      0
      But in my opinion Thor is more effective
  20. AML
    AML 8 June 2020 19: 58 New
    +2
    Quote: SovAr238A
    Authors of the article about the horizon in the course?
    Well, even 150km didn’t write a detection range?
    more, more you need to write numbers ... What would the caps fall ...


    Well, they will raise the antenna a dozen or so meters and you will have a 150km radio horizon. What is the problem? Or do you think the area is completely plain? Radio wave propagation is not this for you.
    1. 3danimal
      3danimal 9 June 2020 11: 01 New
      0
      2 tens of meters will not give 150km of the radio horizon. Remember the formulas. For your range you need 100 meters, with a perfectly flat surface.
      Example: the radar on the ship has a radio horizon of 30-40km, and is at a decent height.
  21. dgonni
    dgonni 8 June 2020 20: 11 New
    +4
    The fact is that the shell can accompany and shell 4 targets simultaneously in the 45 degree sector and two in the 90 degree sector. And not only in the hospital, but also on the technical specifications to do this on the move.
    Now a question arises. And why didn’t he shoot in motion in Syria or Libya?
    And the second one! Taking into account the small epr of anti-tank missiles. The shell turns out to be unarmed against them. For, in the case of a target notch, given their speed, the missiles are useless and the guns have a caliber of 30 mm and do not have shells with a programmable detonation.
    The same torus in Syria has proven itself in this regard much better.
    Therefore, it is necessary to finish the electronic component of the Shell and also yesterday, shells with a programmable detonation.
    1. AML
      AML 8 June 2020 20: 44 New
      +4
      The problem of shells is not in the technical characteristics, but inadequate organization of use. He shot off ammunition, turned on the noise generator and go about your business. You don’t even need anything tricky, a whip antenna and a spark emitter. The task is not to dump the drone, but to bring down the carrier of the video signal. The air goes up and go quietly or recharge yourself. Already 10-20 kg of weight would be added. It is strange that at least such elementary things do not apply.
      1. 3danimal
        3danimal 9 June 2020 11: 04 New
        +1
        Noise generator will not help against anti-tank systems with laser or thermal imaging seekers (shot from a drone)
    2. Avior
      Avior 8 June 2020 20: 48 New
      0
      . Currently, the “Shell” and “Tor” are officially capable of launching rockets only during a stop, and for this the complexes need to stop for at least a short time. But already in 2020 it will be possible to fire without stopping movement.

      “Shooting on the move has already been carried out at the ranges. For example, the Pantsiri anti-aircraft missile-cannon systems (ZRPK) attacked not only air but also ground targets, ”said Alexander Gorkov, ex-chief of the anti-aircraft missile forces of the Russian Air Force.
    3. 3danimal
      3danimal 9 June 2020 11: 03 New
      +1
      For this, new guns are needed. Look at the device of the German 35mm anti-aircraft guns with programmable detonation: there, part of the guns are a programmer coil and a frame for measuring muzzle velocity.
  22. Oleg Zorin
    Oleg Zorin 8 June 2020 20: 44 New
    +7
    Apparently, the author should have focused on a simple and well-known idea - the air defense system alone does not solve the problem of air defense alone. This is a multicomponent task. Then, you look, and the spherical horse would not have turned out in a vacuum.
  23. nobody111body
    nobody111body 8 June 2020 20: 48 New
    -1
    and from what side is this pro-Jewish UAE helping Haftar? setting it up is the supply of shells to him; we then cut down the loot for them, but the so-called anti-advertising apparently decided that the cost of "shells" is cheaper than anti-advertising; And with kakrgo side Erdogan bought a s400 from us? substitute them for eff16
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 9 June 2020 10: 55 New
      0
      Quote: nobody
      and from which side is this pro-Jewish UAE helping Haftar?

      They do not help Haftaru, but fight the Turks.
      Gulf monarchies have long been with knives in the Turks - each side imagines itself to be the head of the Muslims in the BV.
  24. APASUS
    APASUS 8 June 2020 20: 51 New
    +1
    It seems to me that ours is too in a hurry to sell weapons and make concessions? Because the crew must be prepared from the place with the machine and hand over to him not shoulder straps, but a key-mark!
  25. pytar
    pytar 8 June 2020 20: 56 New
    +7
    The advantage in target detection and the range of missile weapons "Pantsir-S1" over the same "Bayraktar" is on the side of the ZRPK: 36 km in the detection range, 18 km in the range of anti-aircraft missiles (at target altitude up to 15 km). The Turkish UAV uses UMTAS anti-tank missiles with a launch range of no more than 8 km.

    If we take the distance from which the active parts of these systems can hit each other, then yes ... The carapace has a larger radius. But it has "dead" zones, through which drones still have a chance to break through at a distance of impact! Especially if several UAVs are used! On the pictures, the specified performance characteristics may be inaccurate, but this is not of fundamental importance.

    And if we take in mind the most important thing - human life, then drones have an undeniable advantage! The operator can sit at a safe distance without risking anything! UAV shot down, well, not fatal, they will print another. And with the defeat of the Shell, the crew often dies! Unstoppable losses!

    This is the advantage of non-contact weapons systems and therefore they are increasingly used! UAV weapon "long arm", and from the Shell, how to lie in the trench with a rifle! They will break through, they will kill and you cannot do anything to the enemy! The only effective remedy against UAVs is REP!
    1. Olddetractor
      Olddetractor 8 June 2020 21: 25 New
      +1

      better complex electronic warfare + air defense system + experienced crew
    2. Rvlad
      Rvlad 8 June 2020 21: 33 New
      +1
      Boyan, don’t have to indulge in fantasies, read: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/331772628_Udarnye_bespilotnye_letatelnye_apparaty_i_protivovozdusnaa_oborona_-problemy_i_perspektivy_protivostoent.elg/2020 you can use it, you can see it, pdf
    3. Vol4ara
      Vol4ara 8 June 2020 23: 26 New
      0
      Quote: pytar
      The only effective remedy against UAVs is REP!

      Russian rap ?
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 9 June 2020 10: 58 New
        +1
        Quote: Vol4ara
        Russian rap ?

        Better Russian chanson.
        Although no, it’s possible under inhumane methods of warfare to get in. Then - Morning bluish, logs slimy, in ice water. smile
    4. alexmach
      alexmach 9 June 2020 00: 13 New
      +1
      light UAV, bypasses the affected area at an altitude of 15 KM? In my opinion, it’s not at all realistic. Rather, he simply came from outside the field of view due to the fact that the Carapace did not cover all directions of the attack. That's all.

      It is also likely that a small ERP or applied electronic warfare equipment helped the drone.
      And it is not difficult to make control of the carapace on the position on a stand-alone remote control as a whole.
      1. Vol4ara
        Vol4ara 9 June 2020 11: 05 New
        +1
        Quote: alexmach
        Rather, it just came from outside the review sector due to the fact that

        The shell has a circular view, lol
    5. 3danimal
      3danimal 9 June 2020 11: 08 New
      0
      I will add that the SAM system, when attacking it itself, can make mistakes, being on the verge of death.
      It’s hard to hit the enemy shooting at you.
  26. Rvlad
    Rvlad 8 June 2020 21: 20 New
    12
    ZRPK Pantsyr -... has never been developed to combat UAVs. Never. Its purpose: the defeat of strike aircraft and cruise missiles in the tactical depth of defense to cover troops. And that’s it. UAV shooting measure, in many ways, forced. ZRPK Pantsyr -..., due to its conceptual and structural ideology, cannot successfully resist group UAV raids. In principle, it can’t. Therefore, they beat him. Since there is no one to think in the RF Ministry of Defense (air defense and air defense missile defense) (30 years of collapse and optimization have not been fruitless), so far there are no effective means of counteracting the use of UAVs in the RF Ministry of Defense (but also in the Defense Ministry of all high-tech countries) take-off weight up to 200 kg, performing a combat mission in an autonomous (without radio exchange and radiation by active airborne means). The experience of b / d in Syria is fully confirmed. Shooting a gun at a UAV is the same as hitting an armed robber with a tennis racket. It should be noted that the E-95 aerial target does not mimic anything but itself. This is a non-maneuverable, acoustic and IR very noticeable low-speed UAV. In order not to get on it, you still have to try very hard. Barrel automatic artillery, as you know, has a dispersion of shells in line. Heating the barrel worsens the internal ballistics of the projectile in the barrel and dispersion greatly increases. Since the E-95 PuVRD shines like a MiG-29 turbojet on the afterburner, the MANPADS and the Shell armor simply cannot get into the E-95)))). In addition, there are currently no air targets in the RF Ministry of Defense that would imitate real targets. And they don’t allocate funds for their development at all ... Real life is much more complicated and harsher than shown in this article)))) There is nothing to be proud of and nothing to enjoy
    1. pytar
      pytar 8 June 2020 21: 29 New
      +1
      Clear! You are undoubtedly right! hi
    2. V.I.P.
      V.I.P. 8 June 2020 21: 46 New
      -1
      Now you will be minded by the screaming "no analogues" for such a review. They believe that all our weapons, without exception, "do not have ... ..". But they do not understand that much and "does not have ... ..", because no one needs this in the world, they have a much more advanced system ...
      1. Rvlad
        Rvlad 8 June 2020 22: 01 New
        +1
        Thank. Yes, to health, let it be minus ... War is not won on the sound of reviews. Wars are won by real weapons))))
    3. Saxahorse
      Saxahorse 8 June 2020 23: 24 New
      0
      Quote: RVlad
      Since the E-95 PuVRD shines like a MiG-29 turbojet on the afterburner, the MANPADS and the Shell armor simply cannot get into the E-95)))).

      As it turns out, they may not get there. There was a scandal in the comparative shooting of Thor and the Shell. The carapace successfully hits the target when attacking from the side. But in the frontal, when the target goes directly to the Shell, the latter manages to smear.
      1. Rvlad
        Rvlad 9 June 2020 09: 55 New
        +2
        Somewhat wrong. At all firing, the Pantsyr (s) exactly fit into the requirements of the technical specifications: the real miss value does not exceed the limit given. The picture projection of a strike aircraft (A-10, Su-25, etc.) acts as a measure. The E-95M air target is substantially smaller in size. After all, to hit does not mean to destroy. It's all about a composite missile (the final section is a ballistic flight) and the power of its warhead. Shooting on the opposite courses is the most difficult: the approach speeds are very high and the missile may not have enough overload to cover the air target with a cloud of damaging elements when undermining the warhead. This is a problem for all air defense systems, without exception. The most unpleasant situation was when a foreign buyer refused to test the Pantsyr using the E-95M and used his air target ... The probability of defeat was 0. There was no blame for the developers: what was written in the statement of work, they did under what conditions it is prescribed to evaluate the effectiveness, and they were used in those))))) TORs are a different story and everything is also swollen and outrageously mad there ... Nobody cares about the country's defenses, the main thing is to get money
    4. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 9 June 2020 11: 08 New
      +1
      Quote: RVlad
      ZRPK Pantsyr -... has never been developed to combat UAVs. Never. Its purpose: the defeat of strike aircraft and cruise missiles in the tactical depths of defense to cover troops. And that’s it.

      EMNIP, "Pantsir" is not a military air defense complex at all. It was made for the country's air defense - object air defense and covering the "dead zone" of the DD air defense system. And in these places, the appearance of small UAVs is unlikely.
      And he had to work in the system, and not stick out alone in the middle of a bare field. smile
      1. Rvlad
        Rvlad 9 June 2020 12: 20 New
        +1
        And why for object-based air defense shooting on the go? Does he have to constantly wander around a covered object? Immediately there is a bunch of all sorts of problems in the target allocation with a constant change of location. The dead zone is covered by complexes of a shorter range of action. And UAVs today are a very big problem both for object-based air defense and for military air defense. They fly and are very active ...
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 9 June 2020 12: 52 New
          0
          Quote: RVlad
          And why for object-based air defense shooting on the go?

          So initially it was not there. Marching fire appeared after the "Shells" were supplied to the Armed Forces, and they began to be used in an inappropriate way, as military air defense.
          Shooting on the move has already been conducted at the ranges. For example, anti-aircraft missile-cannon systems (ZRPK) "Armor" attacked not only air but also ground targets

          - said the former head of the anti-aircraft missile forces of the Russian Air Force, Alexander Gorkov.
          According to him, Russian designers managed solve a number of technical problems и to teach short-range air defense systems "Carapace" and "Thor" to hit targets on the move, It remains to train Russian anti-aircraft gunners.

          Initially, the system was supposed to work from prepared positions, changing them after firing.
          1. Rvlad
            Rvlad 9 June 2020 19: 04 New
            -1
            Did you understand what you wrote? wink In MO there is an Ordering Office, which produces TK. This ToR clearly defines purpose, affiliation, goals and objectives. Transferring from one structure to another is not so easy. At the training ground, the mismatch of opportunities to tasks quickly became apparent. The foreign customer presented the requirement to work on the go and replace the chassis. And after that they started messing around ...
  27. Alexey from Perm
    Alexey from Perm 8 June 2020 21: 35 New
    -2
    Well, well, less than six months later, VO finally recognized the effectiveness of Turkish UAVs, although now VO found out that the calculations were in the shadows)))
    1. Torak
      Torak 9 June 2020 05: 32 New
      +1
      Just practice has shown their complete meaninglessness and now I understand why we are not in a hurry to develop analogues with such indicators. Even with the smallest-most sensible air defense, a drone fall begins. And if you add also electronic warfare - generally the sense of them is 0. And the toys are oh, which are not cheap! They make sense if you are an aggressor against backward countries.
  28. A.TOR
    A.TOR 8 June 2020 21: 42 New
    +4
    Maybe all the same, the matter is different?
    Maybe any attempts to create a stable and more or less "impenetrable" ground air defense in today's realities of air attack are doomed to failure?
    Perhaps the "American" approach to air defense of different levels, based primarily on air means of fighting an air attack, is more correct and consistent with realities?
    1. Rvlad
      Rvlad 8 June 2020 21: 58 New
      +4
      Everywhere with air defense is equally bad. A lot of PR, the issue of obtaining objective indicators of the real combat effectiveness of the developed air defense systems is very much affected. In fact, a comprehensive approach is not being implemented anywhere and there is a fatal gap between science and manufacturers everywhere. Consequence: there are no scientists, the decline of science is everywhere ... The developer of the means of attack is not interested in financing science from air defense. In air defense there is no real understanding of the trends in the development of means of attack. And then everything goes according to precedent: there is an event - there is a reaction, there is no event - we sit smoking .. etc. On the territory of the former USSR, all science in air defense ended in the 90s. Then we went by inertia. In the USA, there was no science in air defense: they sat far away, not to be reached. Now they are pushing, but this is not a simple matter and time-consuming. The effect will not be soon. Israel is a PR master. But there it struck a very peculiar and also at the end - they kept on immigrants from the USSR, but for the most part they have either died out or are already incapable. And behind them is the same swamp as everywhere
      1. A.TOR
        A.TOR 8 June 2020 22: 11 New
        -1
        That’s how I imagined it.
        1. Rvlad
          Rvlad 8 June 2020 22: 14 New
          +2
          Well, they correctly imagined: it’s difficult to develop an effective means of attack, but the means to defeat it are even more difficult. This is art: you must be able to think for the developer of the means of attack, for the one who will use it and to predict the direction of their thoughts ... This is very difficult. These are piece people ...
  29. Aviator_
    Aviator_ 8 June 2020 22: 00 New
    +2
    Drones were sent from different directions and often introduced the operators of the "Shell" into a stupor.

    Is the author known for such a traditional, well-established term as "star raid"?
  30. The comment was deleted.
    1. Avior
      Avior 8 June 2020 23: 26 New
      0
      Perhaps you are just behind the times. smile
      The Word does not consider it necessary to put a soft sign here, but everyone is already used to focusing on the Word, and not on Rosenthal, and especially on Soboleyev and Burtseva smile
      1. race
        race 9 June 2020 00: 11 New
        0
        Maybe. Apparently I also have Word old, because it puts a soft sign.
        In any case, the author must know the grammar himself, and not just check it with Word.
        1. Avior
          Avior 9 June 2020 00: 49 New
          0
          I also have an old one, I'm used to it, but he did not find an error.
          So old that he proposed replacing the drone with andron smile
    2. Vol4ara
      Vol4ara 9 June 2020 11: 04 New
      +1
      Quote: Rasen
      But Russia is not in a hurry to share this option with ZRPK

      How illiterate authors on VO got! Is this a chip here or something? I have never seen anything like this on any site. Where did they generally learn Russian? In the corridors? Or in the toilets while the textbook was smoked?
      As an example, he cited only one error out of several in this text. Anyone say where the error is?

      This is not a VO problem, it is a problem of education in the Russian Federation as a whole ... On central channels, in a running line, this is sometimes written, it becomes a shame
  31. Torak
    Torak 8 June 2020 23: 35 New
    +5
    What is the next nonsense? Where are these losses? How much can you lie and throw fakes? Here show me the destroyed shells! Except for one, when the Shell was without a crew and was hit by an Israeli rocket and after being restored I did not see it, although I monitor the topic carefully! I’m really tired of zombie Turkish cartoons and yelling ukrobesov arguing in the article that this is an indisputable fact! I remember Poured bullshit about a dozen destroyed cars in Syria even when they were not on the front line at all since everyone was near Damascus and even there were not enough! It was worth throwing 4 cars to the front line and in spite of the terrifying training of the Syrians and work outside the layered air defense, a dronadam and a complete rejection of Turkish drones flights in that area immediately began! In addition, there were videos where it was not the Shell that was struck, but an external similar German analogue of the 1973 model (long removed from service in Europe), and in one case in general, where it was targeted at firing. There were even videos where for the sake of fake in Turkey altogether mock-ups. In Libya, according to various sources, there were 4-6 of them. And already declare about 22! Generally golem nonsense! Where will you find crews for 22s? Can you imagine at least a little what it means to prepare at least one, what sort of selection do the natives need to make in order to find even a little bit more capable of learning at least something? The glorious army doesn’t even have anyone to shoot with cannons, but then dozens of shells of the rebels suddenly divorced, and all of them shoot like that. Moreover, they can challenge the uniqueness of the shell after repeatedly destroying the city’s rockets near Khmeimim (the first was in 2017) only complete mediocrity. .At this most difficult target, the complex took off all its questions! The same applies to miniature drones that attacked the base in real life several times a week! Visually show what else the world knows how to do? And do not compare it with a rifle, I pulled the trigger and hit. First of all, this complex is conceived as an element of layered defense, and work in the autonomous region is like an extreme option!
    1. V.I.P.
      V.I.P. 9 June 2020 08: 44 New
      -6
      Do you really think that the Shell "has no analogues"? When Khmeinim was shelled, the S-400 and Pantsiri somehow showed themselves so that they immediately brought in a bunch of TORs. And only then they began to tell how much they knock down. But no one will tell you what wink

      Biho 2 South Korean won a tender for the supply of air defense missile systems to India. The shell and Tunguska did not suit them.
      Here is the Chinese Shell FK-1000

      Here are your analogues ....
      Well, tell us who is the best electronics and where it is purchased for our defense industry laughing
      1. spectr
        spectr 9 June 2020 12: 16 New
        0
        All these systems have the same sores. And if the calculation does not select the position correctly (for example, puts this technique in a hollow), then no electronics will help.
      2. +5
        +5 9 June 2020 14: 23 New
        +1
        Biho 2 South Korean - cheap stuff with a low-speed gun and rockets from MANPADS.

        I can’t remember the analogs of the Shell with a cheap radio command missile, of which 12 pieces and 4 barrels, except possibly Chinese, ...
      3. Torak
        Torak 9 June 2020 16: 48 New
        0
        Firstly, you jump off the topic and we are discussing with no one longer, but whether the shell was defeated in real life as a result of their inadequacy as air defense media.
        2) Nobody pulled the Torah there, how many there were and there were, and they acted in conjunction with the Carapace, often in different areas.
        3) The beautiful pictures that you post here and stay until they show better parameters in real combat conditions than our models. In particular, how do they manage to shoot down MLRS missiles
        4) Tenders around the world are far from being won by the best, but exclusively by those manufacturers in whom these or those characters are interested, often these are Americans.
        For example, take the Indians. They demanded that Russia transfer secret technologies together with the planes, and after the refusal inflate the lips, start telling everyone that all our equipment is shit and buy super-expensive scrap metal around the world.
        1. V.I.P.
          V.I.P. 9 June 2020 21: 44 New
          -2
          Well, if so, then what character in India is interested in purchasing S-400?))
      4. Torak
        Torak 9 June 2020 20: 58 New
        0
        Like cream in the ass! Moreover, it can be seen from the instruments that they drove him a long time ago and impressively drove them only 3 km. To see the Turks was blinded by REB.
        https://twitter.com/i/status/1270249418579759104
  32. kieferandreas
    kieferandreas 9 June 2020 01: 09 New
    0
    so who gave them the order to cool off in wartime when an attack can happen at any moment? blunders themselves are to blame. didn’t they be caught off guard during prayer or?
  33. sen
    sen 9 June 2020 03: 39 New
    +1
    One of the problems of the “Shell-C1” in Libya is not providing them with ammunition, fuel and spare parts, since Turkish drones have concentrated all their efforts on the destruction of Field Marshal Haftar's transport convoys moving along the roads.
  34. riwas
    riwas 9 June 2020 04: 00 New
    +2
    Losses in Syria and Libya of the Panzir (Panzir-C1) anti-aircraft missile and gun systems manufactured in Russia led to the need to learn important lessons from the situation. Of course, the notorious human factor plays a paramount role in the fact that Haftar forces in Libya and government troops in the SAR lost such weapons.

    The “Shell-C1” has a fully automatic mode, in it its operation does not depend on the qualification of the calculation.
    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Панцирь-С1
    1. V.I.P.
      V.I.P. 9 June 2020 17: 09 New
      -2
      That's right, the host screamed about it in the Military Reception. You do not need to do anything, the system itself finds and shoots))). ... In the video and pictures from Libya there are destroyed Armor in Kamaz. But the UAE does not have such, they are on the chassis of the MAN .. Where did they come from in Libya on Kamaz and who was the operator there, that's what is interesting.
      1. Cyril G ...
        Cyril G ... 9 June 2020 18: 58 New
        0
        A lot of Kamaz then? I saw one
  35. Ros 56
    Ros 56 9 June 2020 05: 46 New
    0
    Papuans at least give a golden shell, there will be no sense. They need to first learn the words tactics and strategy and then progressively, and then let them in to the iron.
  36. Robust
    Robust 9 June 2020 08: 26 New
    -3
    The amazing phrase of the author "In the end, the ZRPK either managed to release rocket ammunition (12 missiles) when the" head "drone appeared ..." suggests that the probability of being hit by the "Pantsir" is practically zero)))
    1. alexmach
      alexmach 9 June 2020 09: 07 New
      +2
      suggests that the probability of defeat for the "Shell" is practically zero)))

      It suggests that the nameless author of VO has a very violent fantasy. In general, the quality of materials issued by the VO itself and not reprinted from the "Bulletin of Mordovia" has always been below the plinth. Hurray-patriotism with a bare bottom, that's all VO.
  37. The comment was deleted.
  38. DominickS
    DominickS 9 June 2020 13: 11 New
    0
    All these Arabs, or whatever they are, have some kind of total learning disability. What is the general deployment time if there is continuous hostilities? In such conditions, any air defense system must operate continuously, interrupting only for the necessary maintenance, while it is being replaced by a reserve, or "hot" replacement. And so, of course, that they are clicked on the march one after the other - just not tempted to destroy a defenseless target.
  39. meandr51
    meandr51 9 June 2020 14: 31 New
    0
    The more Shells they get, the better. Such testing is not possible at the training ground. This will bring the complex to mind or, if it is useless, come up with something new, for example, an antidron.
  40. +5
    +5 9 June 2020 14: 35 New
    +2
    Carapace - object air defense. Its task is to defeat air attack weapons in the depths of defense to cover the S-300/400 or important objects. It is highly desirable to work in a system with an external control center (although this is desirable for everyone). Its plus is cheapness, including low cost radio command missiles and their large number.
    Riding through the desert as the only means of air defense on a theater is not at all his thing. In this role, it would be much better Thor, which is just military air defense. But it is more expensive.
    In general, I can’t imagine what a lonely complex in the world is in this situation (individual MD complexes on a theater of defense as an air defense), except for the Thor mentioned above, in theory it may be better than a lonely Shell ...
    1. Cyril G ...
      Cyril G ... 9 June 2020 19: 01 New
      0
      All the same, the guns are superfluous, it would be better to build up the missile system,
      I like this car more.

      It is better to have guns on separate pure cannon machines
  41. Torak
    Torak 9 June 2020 19: 04 New
    0
    In short, it is. Already 122 shells have been destroyed. Watch and enjoy. Like little girls ....
    https://twitter.com/i/status/1270249418579759104
  42. Cyril G ...
    Cyril G ... 9 June 2020 20: 43 New
    +3
    About UAV losses in Libya.
    Turkish TB2S losses in Libya as of 06jun20
    Total LNA Claim: 78 (w / o; Shutdown)
    Confirmed Losts (99%): 19
    Probable Losts (90%): 3
    Likely Losts (75%): 4
    Possible Losts: (50%): 7
    Unconfirmed Claims (Probably not realized) (1% -49%): 36
    Fake Claims-Neglected- (0%): 9 (46.2% claims)
    I hope translation is not required?
    But in a nutshell I’ll clarify, the HNA of Haftar claimed 78 victories. Of these, the collapse of 19 Bayraktars was confirmed (with photo) and another 14 cars were probably shot down .... Something like this
  43. YakimovSS
    YakimovSS 10 June 2020 09: 40 New
    0
    So, quietly, the Shell began to turn into Thor.
  44. Thomas the Unbeliever_2
    Thomas the Unbeliever_2 10 June 2020 13: 22 New
    0
    It is always interesting for me to read the opinions of "experts" from the people, you can laugh)))) They know everything and everything! ))))
  45. Dmitry Leontiev
    Dmitry Leontiev 11 June 2020 13: 59 New
    0
    The destroyed Carapaces, as far as I understand, had a human factor - a slow response, unskilled personnel actions. This means that the human factor should be excluded from the process as much as possible so that the machine does everything. For example, there are two modes of operation: normal and emergency. In the usual way, the system notifies about a target that does not respond to the request "friend or foe", and waits for a command to shoot down; in an emergency - nothing is waiting, but immediately knocks down itself.
  46. Basalt
    Basalt 30 June 2020 15: 17 New
    0
    The author is an exceptional idiot. Saudis bought bundles of equipment without a command center and radar - the cheapest system of dual-band optics. Like on MANPADS, only more powerful and more missiles. Only the sector can control - there is no radar of the all-round view, therefore, a simultaneous approach from two directions for one machine is a difficult task. Control the circle - 6 cars are needed. They work very poorly against the sun, almost in the dead of night.
    It is appropriate to use such vehicles as slaves, "clinging" them to the leading full-fledged shells as a carrier of additional ammunition for targets detected by the leading vehicle.
  47. 1Alexey
    1Alexey 6 July 2020 19: 22 New
    0
    It is not clear why in this article, when considering the duel of the Shell with drones, only rocket weapons of the Shell are considered?

    The shell, having cannon armament, can protect itself not only with missiles, but also with an artillery curtain.
  48. demchuk.ig
    demchuk.ig 8 July 2020 17: 55 New
    0
    From the Arabs, warriors are like a bullet from shit.
  49. Miron
    Miron 15 August 2020 11: 22 New
    0
    Shell's main problem is that missiles run out quickly.
    Charge them for a very long time. What all thoughtful people feared has been confirmed by the fighting. In a war, a car worth $ 20 million is a disposable toy that is thrown away when the ammunition runs out.
    ***
    The cannon armament, the reloading of which lasts a reasonable time, turned out to be raw. They do not cope with the task.
    ***
    Thus, the materiel does not justify its purpose and price tag.
    ***
    Outputs -
    1.remove the cannons and double or even quadruple the missile ammunition due to the freed up space on the gun carriage. 48 short-range explosive missiles are not a bad argument on the battlefield.
    THE PROBLEM OF THIS SOLUTION - The carapace in this configuration is helpless when attacking a swarm of small, inexpensive robots. They'll just throw in lemons.
    2. MORE PREFERRED to bring the cannon component to a usable condition.
    THE PROBLEM OF THIS SOLUTION - Requires a Talented Engineer
    3. MORE PREFERRED - create a manipulator arm for almost instant reloading of missile weapons.
    When points 2 and 3 are completed, the aggregate firepower of the Shell will reach the inherent capabilities and ensure strategic superiority over a potential enemy.
    And the manipulator arm will quickly master all other carriers that have a destructive means that cannot be manned, including submarines, air defense systems, aircraft boards, mine installations, tank and artillery chargers, MLRS weapons.
  50. rusboris
    rusboris 18 August 2020 19: 50 New
    0
    Rate of fire: 15 rounds per minute. Shooting range in height: up to 15,4 km. Firing range: up to 21 km.
    Turkish 30 mm anti-aircraft guns were bombed and short-range missile systems were bombed. The Arab Shells are destroyed too. It's time to look at the systemic gaps in the air defense of the ground forces. For example, the absence of artillery from 57 mm and above. I would like to see Iranian 100 mm guns in action. Interestingly, Iran can deliver them to Libya?