Military Review

Preparation for the redeployment of troops of the 16th Army in 1941

47

The following abbreviations are used in the article: IN - military district, gsd - mountain rifle division, GSh - General base, Spacecraft - Red Army, u - mechanized housing md - motorized division, RGC - reserve of the high command, Goals Difference - intelligence materials, sk (sd) - rifle corps (division), td - tank division.


In the article, the designations of HE or fronts are used: ArkhVO - Arkhangelsk Military District, DF - Far Eastern Front, ZabVO - Trans-Baikal Military District, ZakVO - Transcaucasian Military District, Zapovo - Western Special Military District, KOVO - Kiev Special Military District, LVO - Leningrad Military District (Northern Front - Northern Front) , MBO - Moscow Military District, OdVO - Odessa Military District, OrVO - Oryol Military District, PribOVO - Baltic Special Military District, Northern Military District - Volga Military District, SAVO - Middle Asian Military District, Siberian Military District - Siberian Military District, North Caucasian Military District - Ural Military District - Ural Military District , HVO - Kharkov VO.

In the previous part It was shown that the plans for the deployment of the Armed Forces of the Soviet Union in the west in 1941 provided for Germany to set up from 180 to 200 divisions for war with our country. On the side of Germany, troops of Finland, Romania and Hungary could also fight. From March 11 to the start of the war, the number of spacecraft planned by the General Staff to counter the enemy forces, as part of the western military forces, in the LVO and in the armies of the RGK, did not change significantly.

RM until 31.5.41 were unreliable and did not allow to make an unambiguous conclusion about the beginning of the war on June 15 ... 22. There was a lot of misinformation in the RM about the deployment of German troops in the Balkans, about the preparation of a war between Germany and Turkey, about the presence of German troops in Turkey, about plans to send German troops to Iraq and Syria. In the RM, it was said that the war between Germany and the USSR was about to begin, it was said that the war was postponed until the defeat of England and the strengthening of Germany in the Middle East. As misinformation at different levels and in different countries, they threw up information about possible German requirements. For example, about the long-term lease of grain land in Ukraine or the lease of Baku oil fields. That was said about the separation of Ukraine from the USSR ... It was shown that, as of May 31, the British special services did not know either: there would be a war between the USSR and Germany or these countries would conclude a treaty “very dangerous” for England.

Big fees


In the previous part, the issue that is associated with an increase in the number of spacecraft remained unexamined. This is a matter of high fees. It is well known that about 800 thousand people were called up for training. There are many articles on this subject. One of them is an article. Dmitry Shane.

As of December 1.12.40, 97, the spacecraft in 12550 spacecraft had 9 people, 11000 md - each at 10, 9000 militia forces - at 49, 6000 md - at 23 and 3000 md - at 1941. In the spring of XNUMX, the troops of the spacecraft were transferred to new states of peacetime :

- 89 units - for 4/100 staff - 10291 people with the adoption of 4200 people before the state of war (4/400 staff - 14483 people);

- 10 state road police - 4/140 staff - 8829 people (according to the wartime states 14163 people);

- 109 divisions - state 4/120 - 5864 people with the adoption of 6000 people to the state of wartime.

As early as the beginning of 1941, the People's Commissar of Defense prepared a document on the number of persons liable for military service who needed to be involved in training camps in 1941. On March 8, the Politburo of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks allowed non-profit organizations to call for military training in 1941: 90 people for 192869 days, 60 people for 25000 days, 45 people for 754896 days, 30 people for 3105 days. A total of 975870 people.

Before the war, NPOs did not fully use the limit on the number of draftees involved in training camps: over 170 thousand people were not called up. They were probably left to attract to training camps in the second peaceful half of 1941 ...

At the end of March - the beginning of April, the volumes of recruits recruited for training courses in HE were determined. In April and May, the number of draftees recruited for training was clarified for some divisions. The refinement was associated with the disbandment of a number of air assault forces and the formation on their base of airborne and anti-tank brigades. The figure shows the data on the number of recruits accepted by HE divisions in accordance with A note by the chief of the General Administration of the General Staff. It is indicated that the Note was prepared no later than 20.5.41.

It can be seen from the figure that 464300 people will be called up to staff rifle and mountain rifle divisions for the period of the training. Of these, 131550 people, or 28% of the recruits, will be called up to staff the three western border districts and LVO. Thus, a significant part of the enlisted staff was called up for training to staff divisions of the internal districts. Divisions that, if threatened with the outbreak of war with Germany, would advance to the west.


The table does not contain data on PribOVO, which submitted the application a little later. According to historian S. L. Chekunov, fees in the specified district were to begin on June 24. Basically, the assigned composition for these divisions was called up for 45 days and was supposed to be in the formations from 1 ... 15 to July 15-30. Probably, during this period the General Staff expected a war with Germany or a delay from the war for a while ... The rest of the personnel called up for training served to replenish units and formations of other combat arms and types of troops, as well as to equip some rear structures.

Events in the Balkans and the Middle East


Turkey. 19.10.39/1940/XNUMX the British-French-Turkish military alliance was concluded on mutual assistance in the event of the transfer of hostilities to the Mediterranean region. In the spring of XNUMX, hostilities affected the region, and the Allies demanded that Turkey fulfill its obligations. However, the government declared Turkey a "non-belligerent country." After the defeat and occupation of France, Germany's position in Europe strengthened significantly. The Turkish government was forced to balance between strong Germany and England, which was still trying to maintain its position in the Balkans.

In the summer of 1940, an agreement was signed on Turkish-German economic cooperation. At the same time, a similar agreement was valid with England. In the spring of 1941, Germany invaded Yugoslavia, defeated the Anglo-Greek forces, and conquered Greece. German troops approached the Turkish border. Turkey could repeat the fate of other countries: either become an ally of Germany, or be captured by its troops.

In March 1941, a pro-German government came to power in Iraq. On April 8, Churchill noted: “We must ensure the safety of Basra, as Americans are increasingly vigorously insisting on creating a large assembly base there, where they could directly deliver their aircraft ... "

An English infantry brigade landed in Basra on April 18, and the Anglo-Iraq War began in May, which lasted 30 days. The Iraqi government hoped for the arrival of German ground forces, but only German and Italian air units arrived. On June 1, a government was established in Iraq that focused on England. Now, British troops at any time could be on the border of Turkey and Iran.

In April and June 1941, the Turkish government refused to let British troops through its territory heading for combat operations in Iraq and Syria. The Turkish government also refused to let the Wehrmacht troops through its territory, which were planned to be sent to Iraq and Syria. On 18.6.41, a friendship and non-aggression treaty was concluded with Germany.

Iran. As early as the 20s, Iran relied on Berlin in a confrontation with London or Moscow. In 1928, the Germans participated in the creation of the "National Bank of Iran", and in 1929 an Iran-German friendship and cooperation agreement was signed. In 1937, a conspiracy was revealed in the army, which aimed to overthrow the Shah and establish a Nazi dictatorship. Participants in the conspiracy were executed, but in the absence of an alternative, Iran continued to maintain good relations with Berlin.

In 1940, the Germans began to build the city of Nazis in Iran, in which members of the youth organization "National Defense" took part. A large number of books, brochures and leaflets were brought to Iran. In cinemas they provided films free of charge glorifying the power of German weapons. The Germans recruited and bought the owners of influential newspapers, using the Iranian press as the mouthpiece of their propaganda. Pro-Nazi youth and officer organizations began to multiply throughout the country. By 1941, Germany accounted for more than 40% of Iran’s total turnover.

Since April 1940, Germany supplied military equipment and weapons to the Iranian army. Supporters of Germany were in all the power structures of the country and the army. The territory of Iran was used to conduct espionage and subversive work against the USSR and to disorganize the most important areas of the Soviet rear. The country was a springboard for an attack on British possessions in India, and could also serve as the basis for an attack on the southern borders of the Soviet Union. 25.6.41 Berlin officially demanded that the Iranian government enter the war on the side of Germany.

The situation on the part of the southern border of the Soviet Union since the spring of 1941 became increasingly tense ...

16th Army Promotion


There are no published documents regarding the nomination of the 16th Army. Its true route will have to be restored from the recollections of veterans and based on an analysis of documents that at first glance seem far from the fate of the 16th Army.

The most frequently used discussions are the memoirs of a member of the Military Council of the 16th Army A. A. Lobachev. The author will also not change traditions.


From the memoirs it is clear that the commander of the ZabVO does not know where the army is heading. He knows only about the direction to the west. The order to begin the redeployment was brought to the command of the district and army unexpectedly on May 25. The memoirs do not say anything about whether the command and personnel knew about the expected change of location after the General Directive of April 26.

It should be noted that of the compounds of the 32nd ck, one 152nd cd is mentioned, and this is no accident. The second division of the 32nd sk (46th regiment) since April 1941 was kept in the state of 4/120, i.e. had less than 6000 personnel. Before the war, the ZabVO did not plan to call on the assigned staff to understaff their sd. Therefore, this division was not ready to head west. And it’s right, because neither May 25 nor June 15 did anyone expect the outbreak of war with Germany. The division remained in ZabVO, awaiting orders for mobilization, and after mobilization (at the end of June) was sent to the west (where it arrived on 14.7.41). It turns out to be interesting: the 16th army is supposedly going to the west, and one of its divisions is not staffed, although funds remained for the draftees in NCOs. This incident does not at all resemble the departure of the 16th Army to the war on June 22 ...

A similar situation is observed with two divisions of the DF: the 21st and 66th. Both divisions were supposed to head west in May 1941, but, it turned out, they were not particularly expected in the west ... There was no expectation of a war there ... The transfer of the 21st SD began only in August, and the 66th SD remained in reserve front.

Next, we consider an excerpt from the book “Commander Lukin”, which confirms the information contained in the memoirs of A.A. Lobachev.

Preparation for the redeployment of troops of the 16th Army in 1941

In the memoirs of I.U. Moskvina says that they learned about the upcoming relocation in early May. This is closer to the truth. It is a question of a transfer to the west or of withdrawal to camps near Chita.


What else is interesting in the memories? First: the echelons of the 5th mk continue to decrease even after June 3, the term named by A.A. Lobachev, the deadline for sending army formations. Second: there is no mention of camouflage tools and equipment for their transportation. It seems that only tanks and the fact of transporting tanks somewhere were carefully masked. Tankers were even forced to remove emblems from their buttonholes.


In the memoirs of V.A. Giga from the 17th megapixel also does not talk about disguising automotive vehicles. Yes, and masking three cars on two platforms is somewhat difficult ...


Consider the recollections of the military physician of the 333rd artillery regiment of the 152nd SD B.M. Feoktistova.



Still, the 16th Army learned about relocation in early May. He was announced to relocate to the west. Families were allowed to pack and load things in crates. Two wagons intended for commander’s belongings entered the artillery regiment. The memoirs did not say about any problems during the delivery of things to the Central warehouse of NPOs - this was probably the usual thing during transportation. It is likely that other parts of the 16th army could carry things commanders ...

Husbands took almost all things from home, leaving the bare minimum. Still, in the large city of Alma-Ata, the train stopped, and it was possible to walk not far from the station. This fact, of course, could not add secrecy in the transportation of troops ...

In addition to the troops of the 16th Army, the 57th TD, which was deployed near the border on the territory of the Mongolian People’s Republic, was heading west. Consider the memories of the commander of the 57th TD V.A. Mishulina. The visit of the commander of ZabVO at the end of April is very similar to checking the connection to the dispatch in accordance with the General Directive of April 26. The commander did not inform the command of the compound about the upcoming transfer.


For the secret redeployment of the 57th TD from the border, not only tanks, but artillery should have been masked. Again, the personnel learned about the fact of relocation, which could not contribute to the secrecy of transport. Interesting: how strong was Japanese intelligence at the border in Mongolia? ..

Information from special services received in early June


On June 3, a message came from an agent of the 2nd Directorate of the NKGB:

The Germans concentrated about 150 divisions on the western borders of the Soviet Union ... The outbreak of hostilities is expected on June 15 or 20. Germans подготовили also the possibility of an attack from the south ... On this occasion, an agreement was reached with Turkey... A large-scale environment has been prepared ...

W. Churchill:

On June 5, the Joint Intelligence Agency reported that judging by the scale of German military preparations in Eastern Europe, a more important issue was apparently at stake than an economic agreement. It is possible that Germany wants to eliminate the potential threat of the increasingly powerful Soviet armed forces from its eastern border. Management did not yet consider it possible to say will war or agreement result...

Note by Deputy Commissar of State Security of the USSR with the text of the conversation received by agents 6.6.41: “The Germans are extremely indignant at the intransigence of Turkey on the issue of German troops passing through Turkish territory. Filov concluded that Moscow prevented German-Turkish agreement on the admission of troops ... "

On June 9, a message came from Schiller:
... the Germans ’action against the USSR was prepared both militarily and economically, and was supposed at the end of May of this year. Reason for speech: economic and economic tensions between both countries.
If the war with England is not completed before the fall, the Germans intend to occupy Ukraine and the Donbass to provide themselves with coal and iron, which will happen regardless of the proposals and concessions that we will make under the threat of conflict. If the war ends before fall, then a deal with the USSR is possible without armed conflict...

Message from Elder June 9: “Next week, the tension in the Russian question will reach its highest point, and the question of war will be finally resolved. Germany will present to the USSR a demand to provide the Germans with economic leadership in Ukraine and the use of the Soviet military fleet against England ... "

Closer to June 10th, messages begin to become more alarming.

To be continued ...
Author:
Articles from this series:
1941. Where the 16th Army was preparing to redeploy?
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  1. Olgovich
    Olgovich 10 June 2020 07: 29 New
    0
    RM until 31.5.41 were unreliable and did not allow to make an unambiguous conclusion about the beginning of the war on June 15 ... 22. There was a lot of misinformation in the RM about the deployment of German troops in the Balkans, about the preparation of a war between Germany and Turkey, about the presence of German troops in Turkey, about plans to send German troops to Iraq and Syria. In RM, it was said that the war between Germany and the USSR was about to begin, it was said that the war was delayed until the defeat of England and the strengthening of Germany in the Middle East.


    the inaccuracy of the RM data on DETAILS does not remove the guilt of those responsible: on the main thing. the fact that a mobilized warring army stands on our borders was known very well.

    Have timely and appropriate countermeasures been taken? No, and the June 1941 disaster is evidence of this.
  2. antivirus
    antivirus 10 June 2020 07: 40 New
    +4
    finally indicated - TsKVKPb allowed to call - the master in the country. and now it’s not Kudrin or GDP-DAM-Mishustin (still without reduction), but the COLLECTIVE MIND solves strategic issues, including building frigates and aircraft carriers or daggers and sarmats
  3. ccsr
    ccsr 10 June 2020 11: 51 New
    -7
    Author:
    Eugene
    RM until 31.5.41 were unreliable and did not allow to make an unambiguous conclusion about the beginning of the war on June 15 ... 22. There was a lot of misinformation in the RM about the deployment of German troops in the Balkans, about the preparation of a war between Germany and Turkey, about the presence of German troops in Turkey, about plans to send German troops to Iraq and Syria. In RM, it was said that the war between Germany and the USSR was near

    The next lie of the author of the article will have to be exposed again, and the easiest way is by points.
    Разведсводка от 31 5.41. г . не могла в себя включать точную дату нападения, хотя бы потому, что если бы она была известна, её всё равно никогда бы не включили в материал такого уровня, потому что эта информация имела бы гриф "особой важности" к которой имели бы доступ несколько лиц в государстве, а не командование округов. Но главная ложь автора заключается не в этом, а в том, что 31.5.1941 г. немцы сами не знали что нападение состоится 22 июня, потому что директива Гальдера была издана только 10 июня 1941 года, причем в ней оговаривались две даты - 18 и 22 июня и условный сигнал, по которому будет извещены войска о нападении на СССР. Автор статеек еще раз показал, что он занимается подтасовками, что является типичным примером резунизма среди так называемых "независимых исследователей интернета по военной истории".
    at the direction of Hitler, Commander-in-Chief of the Ground Forces Colonel General Halder June 10, 1941 signed a secret decree "On the appointment of a term for an attack on the USSR." It indicated the day of the attack - June 22 at 03.30. And the possible deadline is “June 18”. The headquarters should have been notified of the final decision by the command on June 21. The Dortmund signal would indicate that the offensive would begin on June 22. Altona signal that the offensive is being carried over.

    https://www.kp.ru/daily/26845/3887285/
    As for the author’s fabrications, that in the Republic of Moldova dated 31.5.1941 his words
    on the preparation of a war between Germany and Turkey, on the presence of German troops in Turkey, on plans to send German troops to Iraq and Syria. In RM, it was said that the war between Germany and the USSR was near
    are false, because there’s no talk of this in the intelligence report:


    Therefore, I once again remind all readers of the articles of this author that we must carefully monitor his fabrications so as not to fall for his propaganda.
    1. pmkemcity
      pmkemcity 11 June 2020 07: 52 New
      +1
      Quote: ccsr
      Therefore, I once again remind all readers of the articles of this author that we must carefully monitor his fabrications so as not to fall for his propaganda.

      Submit wagons under the army? I think it has been prepared for more than one month, but it was planned even earlier.
      1. ccsr
        ccsr 11 June 2020 11: 12 New
        -6
        Quote: pmkemcity
        I think it has been prepared for more than one month, but it was planned even earlier.

        It is still difficult to understand from what time our top political and military leadership finally understood that the war would begin in the summer, but I think that in April 1941 the military got the go-ahead to urgently begin preparations for the war. Even without focusing on the 16th Army, which executed only the General Staff decisions, the deadline for the publication of the May directive to the troops on the urgent processing of cover plans in several districts at once may serve as a specific date. This is the criterion for the army to receive carte blanche to prepare for war. At least there were no other significant events on the countdown date with documentary confirmation of the events that had begun.
  4. BAI
    BAI 10 June 2020 12: 26 New
    -6
    The author, as always, in his repertoire. The photo at the beginning of the article is called
    Loading of the 42nd tank brigade before being sent to the Bryansk Front
    Date: September 1941

    and has nothing to do with this article.
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 10 June 2020 17: 29 New
      -8
      Quote: BAI
      and has nothing to do with this article.

      And he has such a style - to throw all sorts of unnecessary information, and talk about it with a smart look, although it is so clear that he does not understand what was happening then. For example, in a previous article (https://topwar.ru/171921-1941-kuda-gotovilas-peredislocirovatsja-16-ja-armija.html) he built some kind of table, completely not indicating the sources, from which it follows that the Red Army planned to have 9.10.1940 divisions on October 238, 8.3.1941, and already 314 divisions on 55. It is still not clear how it is possible in such a short time in PEACEFUL time to manage to re-equip and equip another 1939 divisions, if since 400 we could not achieve the staffing of the newly created divisions not only with personnel, but also with weapons. In general, Rezun’s next rehash - he really lied about XNUMX divisions on the eve of the war, and this one was modest.
  5. Eug
    Eug 10 June 2020 15: 05 New
    +3
    Как по мне, в предвоенный период КА была "перегружена" разными мероприятиями - перевооружение, переформирование, создание новых частей, переход на другие штаты, смена командования и т.д. Каждое из этих мероприятий по отдельности создает определенные орг.проблемы, а когда они идут одно за другим.... Это очень сильно сказалось на характере начального периода. Люди часто не успевали освоиться в новой обстановке...
  6. VS
    VS 10 June 2020 15: 15 New
    -8
    ""РМ до 31.5.41 были недостоверными и не позволяли сделать однозначный вывод о начале войны 15...22 июня. " --

    LYING! YOU are an unfinished anonymous NOT ALL RM you know and therefore LIEF ..
  7. VS
    VS 10 June 2020 15: 17 New
    -7
    Quote: Olgovich
    RM until 31.5.41 were unreliable and did not allow to make an unambiguous conclusion about the beginning of the war on June 15 ... 22. There was a lot of misinformation in the RM about the deployment of German troops in the Balkans, about the preparation of a war between Germany and Turkey, about the presence of German troops in Turkey, about plans to send German troops to Iraq and Syria. In RM, it was said that the war between Germany and the USSR was about to begin, it was said that the war was delayed until the defeat of England and the strengthening of Germany in the Middle East.


    the inaccuracy of the RM data on DETAILS does not remove the guilt of those responsible: on the main thing. the fact that a mobilized warring army stands on our borders was known very well.

    Have timely and appropriate countermeasures been taken? No, and the June 1941 disaster is evidence of this.

    Stupidity. ALL necessary measures at the KREMLIN level were taken quite on time and in the right amount. Just because YOU DO NOT KNOW this does not mean that it was not done - read the lessons and conclusions. it shows quite what was being done ...
  8. VS
    VS 10 June 2020 15: 17 New
    -6
    Quote: Eug
    Как по мне, в предвоенный период КА была "перегружена" разными мероприятиями - перевооружение, переформирование, создание новых частей, переход на другие штаты, смена командования и т.д. Каждое из этих мероприятий по отдельности создает определенные орг.проблемы, а когда они идут одно за другим.... Это очень сильно сказалось на характере начального периода. Люди часто не успевали освоиться в новой обстановке...

    and it was too)))
  9. VS
    VS 10 June 2020 15: 22 New
    -7
    Quote: ccsr
    On 31.5.1941/22/10, the Germans themselves did not know that the attack would take place on June 1941, because Halder's directive was issued only on June 18, 22, and it stipulated two dates - June XNUMX and XNUMX and a conditional signal by which troops would be notified of the attack on THE USSR.

    NOT THIS WAY! in JANUARY there was a BRAUCHICH directive - to the Barbaross version - in which the DATE OF ATTACK was DETERMINEDLY SET - June 21 !!! I attached this directive to the lessons Appendix 6 !!! (there it was published in abbreviations and just in the 1992 publication there is no this date of attack - June 21)))
    On April 30 and May 1, Hitler MILITARY ORIGINALLY set the date of the attack - June 22 !!!
    And on June 10, Halder signed the directive in which the date is June 22 (WHERE YOU found there on June 18 ???) - it is finally registered !!!
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 10 June 2020 17: 14 New
      0
      Quote: V.S.
      NOT THIS WAY! in JANUARY there was a BRAUCHICH directive - to the Barbaross version - in which the DATE OF ATTACK was DETERMINEDLY SET - June 21 !!!

      Do not distort Oleg, because the Brauchitsch’s directive indicates PREPARATORY WORK, and not the date of the attack on the USSR:
      «Preparatory work нужно провести таким образом, чтобы наступление (день "Б") 21.6 could be started.»

      Source: https://liewar.ru/knigi-o-vojne/348-1941-god-uroki-i-vyvyody.html?start=5
      Даже слова "
      21.6 could be started.
      " говорит о том, что конкретная дата в этой директиве не устанавливалась. Если бы эта Директива была главенствующей и определяла срок нападения, а не готовности, то тогда Гальдер бы свою директиву не издавал - ты хоть это понимаешь? Или ты думаешь что твои натяжки не все заметят?
      Quote: V.S.
      On April 30 and May 1, Hitler MILITARY ORIGINALLY set the date of the attack - June 22 !!!

      It is not considered verbally, if only because only a few people heard such an order, but in order to force all the troops to launch an offensive at the same time, we just needed a directive dated June 10, in which conditional teams were defined so that it would be possible to last moment cancel the attack. And you are talking about February, you are saying something - this is not serious.
      Quote: V.S.
      And on June 10, Halder signed the directive in which the date is June 22 (WHERE YOU found there on June 18 ???) - it is finally registered !!!

      Read carefully what is written there:
      The order indicated:
      On the basis of the proposal submitted by the command of the ground forces, the Supreme High Command of the Armed Forces appointed the following dates for preparation for military operations:
      1. Day D of Operation Barbarossa proposed to consider 22 of June.
      2. In case of postponement of this period, the relevant the decision will be made no later than June 18. The data on the direction of the main attack will remain secret in this case.

      This means that already on June 11, and up to June 18, the Germans could change the date of the attack, and not towards a later postponement of the term, but rather an earlier start of the attack - that’s why the date of June 18 was specified, after which only the date remained 22nd of June. This was due to the fact that the Germans carefully monitored the situation on the border, and the state of our troops, and if they had seen that all districts are introducing a cover plan after June 10, they would have immediately launched an offensive - such actions are provided specifically for any army in the world, when proactive measures begin, and military science recommends this. So be careful to wave the saber - you are not the only one to serve in the army and follow the directives; others also understand something.
      1. VS
        VS 11 June 2020 09: 08 New
        -4
        Quote: ccsr
        21.6 could be started.
        " говорит о том, что конкретная дата в этой директиве не устанавливалась. Если бы эта Директива была главенствующей и определяла срок нападения, а не готовности, то тогда Гальдер бы свою директиву не издавал - ты хоть это понимаешь? Или ты думаешь что твои натяжки не все заметят?

        fuuuu))) no words (((

        Quote: ccsr
        And on June 10, Halder signed the directive in which the date is June 22 (WHERE YOU found there on June 18 ???) - it is finally registered !!!

        Read carefully what is written there:
        The order indicated:
        On the basis of the proposal submitted by the command of the ground forces, the Supreme High Command of the Armed Forces appointed the following dates for preparation for military operations:
        1. It is proposed to consider June 22 as Day D of Operation Barbarossa.
        2. In case of postponement of this period, the relevant decision will be made no later than June 18. The data on the direction of the main attack will remain secret in this case.


        Are you on a horseradish PEREKAZ Halder's order pops me then - from the same bastard as the anonymous clowns here?
        THERE ARE NO TERMS OF TRANSFER OF THE DATE OF THE ATTACK. If you don’t know HOW the date of the attack was set, and this was still on JANUARY 41, in the order of whom of the ground forces Brauchitsch, then you would better keep silent ..

        “High Command of the Ground Forces. General Staff of the Ground Forces. Operations Department. I department. No. 1170/41.
        General Headquarters Ground Forces. 10.6.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX.
        11 copies were printed. Ex. Number 11
        Top secret. For command only.

        On the basis of the proposal submitted by the High Command of the Ground Forces, the Supreme High Command of the Armed Forces appointed the following dates for preparation for military operations:
        It is proposed to consider June 22 as Day D of Operation Barbarossa.
        If this deadline is postponed, a decision will be made no later than June 18. The data on the direction of the main attack will remain secret in this case.
        At 13.00. On June 21, one of the following two signals will be transmitted to the troops:
        a) the Dortmund signal. It means that the offensive, as planned, will begin on June 22 and that it is possible to proceed to the open execution of orders;
        b) the signal "Altona". It means that the offensive is postponed for another term; but in this case it will already be necessary to fully disclose the goals of the concentration of German troops, since the latter will already be in full combat readiness.
        June 22, 3 hours 30 minutes: the beginning of the offensive of the ground forces and the flight of aircraft across the border. If meteorological conditions delay the departure of aircraft, the ground forces will launch an offensive on their own.
        On behalf of: Halder ”(DMA Potsdam. H 02.02.10./43, Bl. 689;“ Fall Barbarossa ”, S. 1U2.)

        here to hell again you are clever not on business in my direction? Take care of our anonymous ...
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 11 June 2020 11: 29 New
          +1
          Quote: V.S.
          Are you on a horseradish PEREKAZ Halder's order pops me then - from the same bastard as the anonymous clowns here?

          What am I supposed to retell you and Martirosyan? You write books yourself, and everyone can get acquainted with your opinion. Halder, unlike both of you, is still a participant in those events, although he interprets them from his point of view.
          Quote: V.S.
          and this was still in JANUARY 41 in the order of whom of the ground forces Brauchitsch - it would be better to keep silent ..

          You do not evade, but just tell why then Halder issued the directive on June 10, if everything was already determined in February.
          Quote: V.S.
          It is proposed to consider June 22 as Day D of Operation Barbarossa.

          Ты так и ни фига не понял, что слово "ПРЕДЛАГАЕТСЯ" на равноценно слово "ПРИКАЗЫВАЮ", а поэтому спорить с тобой по поводу толкования военных документов считаю бесполезным, потому что ты их трактуешь так, чтобы подогнать тексты под свои взгляды. А они к сожалению, бывают не всегда обоснованными, вот поэтому я с тобой не согласен по некоторым вопросам. Например в директиве указано, что
          At 13.00. On June 21, one of the following two signals will be transmitted to the troops:

          Вопрос тебе на засыпку - если Красная Армия перешла бы границу 19 или 20 июня и напала на немцев двигаясь в направлении Краков-Катовице, весь вермахт так бы и ждал 21 июня и сигнала "Дортмунд"? Ты иногда, когда тебя заносить начинает, все таки включай здравомыслие, если уж не знаешь как в таких случаях действуют войска, тем более что ты всех убеждаешь что Жуков готовил удар в направлении Кракова и это могло состояться, если бы Сталин разрешил такую авантюру. Кстати, вопрос о превентивном ударе до сих пор вызывает споры - так что не стоит всех стричь под одну гребенку.
          1. VS
            VS 11 June 2020 15: 06 New
            -3
            Quote: ccsr
            Are you on a horseradish RESERVED Halder’s order fuss me - from the same bastard as the anonymous clowns here?

            What am I supposed to retell you and Martirosyan? You write books yourself, and everyone can get acquainted with your opinion. Halder, unlike both of you, is still a participant in those events, although he interprets them from his point of view.

            SO WHERE IN Halder’s MOST order that there is a date of the attack like June 18, what did YOU say? Fuck me YOUR or someone's retelling of the ORDER if you can order yourself to look?


            Quote: ccsr
            it was still in JANUARY 41 in the order of whom of the ground forces Brauchitsch - it would be better to keep silent ..

            You do not evade, but just tell why then Halder issued the directive on June 10, if everything was already determined in February.

            and why the hell should I think if - there is an order of BRAUCHICH and there is an order of Halder and BOTH - about June 22? In January there was a preliminary order and on June 10 it was finally approved. And WHAT do you have with this problem then?
            In December, they indicated in Barbarossa - the BASIC preparations to finish by the 15th of May! In January, they clarified the order already for deployment - ALL activities should be completed by June 21 so that they attack no later than June 21 and given a concrete order on June 10 - with the date and TIME of the strike. What else bothers you about this business?
            Now it’s clear that the date was approved as June 21-22 and by ORDER - in JANUARY already?

            Quote: ccsr
            Ты так и ни фига не понял, что слово "ПРЕДЛАГАЕТСЯ" на равноценно слово "ПРИКАЗЫВАЮ", а поэтому спорить с тобой по поводу толкования военных документов считаю бесполезным, потому что ты их трактуешь так, чтобы подогнать тексты под свои взгляды. А они к сожалению, бывают не всегда обоснованными, вот поэтому я с тобой не согласен по некоторым вопросам.

            how did you give your literary criticism and from scratch fuss in the end (((

            June 10 - established in the ORDER - the attack will be on June 22 at 3 o’clock! the rest is nuances. If cho goes wrong and the Russians themselves embed - we will decide separately. And if everything is fine - then on June 21 you will receive the final signal at 13.00 - - either about the attack or the rebound.
            YOU CHO AGAIN to understand that not capable yet? Here on the FUCK you here from scratch the srach then unfurled with me?

            Quote: ccsr
            Вопрос тебе на засыпку - если Красная Армия перешла бы границу 19 или 20 июня и напала на немцев двигаясь в направлении Краков-Катовице, весь вермахт так бы и ждал 21 июня и сигнала "Дортмунд"?

            Well, to hell with me a question about anything from you again? I REMEMBER how you brought me brains over Isaev for several months so that in the end I would tell you what I ATTEMPTED YOU and showed you about Isaev’s FALSE with his armies of the RGC and what they supposedly had to carry directly to the border?

            Quote: ccsr
            you convince everyone that Zhukov was preparing a strike in the direction of Krakow and this could have happened if Stalin had allowed such an adventure

            ВЫ планы то поизучайте жуковские - начиная с записки пуркаева от декабря и до "от 15 мая" )) если чо - СТАЛИН сии предложения-планы Жукова об ударе на ЛЮБЛИН не утвердил )))
            1. ccsr
              ccsr 11 June 2020 18: 36 New
              +1
              Quote: V.S.
              SO WHERE IN Halder’s MOST order that there is a date of the attack like June 18, what did YOU say?

              Это контрольная точка для того, чтобы перенести нападение с 22 июня на более ранний срок - вчитайся внимательно в директиву. Вот поэтому используется слово "предлагается" а не "определить".
              Quote: V.S.
              and why the hell should I think if - there is an order of BRAUCHICH and there is an order of Halder and BOTH - about June 22?

              During this time, the situation could change - for example, the States would enter the war, or Hitler would be destroyed:
              According to the military archives of the German secret services, Hitler's life was attempted about 20 times ....
              Another episode with the assassination attempt took place in November 1939, when Elzer, a Munich joiner Johann Georg decided to plant a bomb to kill Hitler during one of his long speeches. But here it fell through. The Fuhrer changed his habit of talking for three hours, and did it in an hour, leaving the rostrum 10 minutes before the explosion.
              Quote: V.S.
              . What else bothers you about this business?

              Nothing confuses, only in January they could not issue a Directive to start a war on June 22, if only because the time period from making a decision to its implementation is too long - that’s not what the military does.
              Quote: V.S.
              I REMEMBER how you took out my brains for several months according to Isaev

              Firstly, Isaev is not mistaken in everything, and secondly, you yourself sometimes carry nonsense, thinking that no one except you knows military affairs. And at the same time you are piercing on various trifles, and those who know all this, immediately see what you can believe and what is not in your texts. And Isaev is not an authority for me - you have to deal with him, I’m not interested.

              Quote: V.S.
              if cho - Stalin, these proposals-plans of Zhukov on the attack on LUBLIN did not approve

              So what the hell are you talking about Zhukov, if he was banned from attacking Lublin? You already didn’t accuse him of anything, and you yourself indicate that he was forbidden to plan an attack on Lublin. Do you think that Zhukov could dare not follow Stalin’s order and write it secretly in his plans? Oh well...
              1. VS
                VS 13 June 2020 10: 38 New
                -3
                Quote: ccsr
                SO WHERE IN Halder’s MOST order that there is a date of the attack like June 18, what did YOU say?

                Это контрольная точка для того, чтобы перенести нападение с 22 июня на более ранний срок - вчитайся внимательно в директиву. Вот поэтому используется слово "предлагается" а не "определить".

                aha - they will decide on June 18 - to postpone the attack on BEFORE June 18 or what? Or - on the 21st or 20th or 19th?))

                But in any case, June 18 is not the date of the attack yet?))

                Quote: ccsr
                and why the hell should I think if - there is an order of BRAUCHICH and there is an order of Halder and BOTH - about June 22?

                During this time, the situation could change - for example, the States would enter the war, or Hitler would be destroyed:

                yes spit! If so if - NOT INTERESTING)) TWO DOCUMENTS show - the date of the attack AS ONE number! from JANUARY moreover, as on June 21) The rest is NOT IMPORTANT and there is no horseradish to breed idle talk unnecessary and empty as you started to do here))
                Quote: ccsr
                I REMEMBER how you took out my brains for several months according to Isaev

                Firstly, Isaev is not mistaken in everything,


                it was about a SPECIFIC question - about the armies of the RGCs that supposedly did not have time to go directly to the border itself !! And YOU first began to make me just the same brains showing what kind of a bore you are and then after a couple of months they gave me something themselves - THE RGK armies SHOULD NOT drive to the border))

                Quote: ccsr
                what the hell are you talking about Zhukov, if he was forbidden to strike at Lublin? You already didn’t accuse him of anything, and you yourself indicate that he was forbidden to plan an attack on Lublin. Do you think that Zhukov could dare not follow Stalin’s order and write it secretly in his plans? Oh well...

                Directive No. 3, sort it out - and read LESSONS - WHO scored plans there ourselves that instead of defense we will attack ourselves))

                How to secretly spell out your dreams of an offensive in plans? YES EASY!! shuffle HOW YOU want troops before June 22 and at the time of the outbreak of war YOU ARE OBLIGED to do what YOU also want and Stalin will not go anywhere - the deer will sign you. 3))
                To quote YEREMENKO's words - HOW Zhukov, under the guise of training in May-June, pulled out the troops - under his own offensive (Pokrovsky's words lead Simonov - HOW did Zhukov rush into the KOVO, got dirty and then dumped everything on STALIN as an organizer?

                YOU, if you don’t know something - about what Zhukov did - you better keep silent))) Your knowledge of HOW TO BE in the General Staff in IDEAL does not always coincide with THAT IT WAS ON THOSE days in the General Staff)) when there are nerds full or - traitors steered ...
                1. ccsr
                  ccsr 13 June 2020 11: 58 New
                  +1
                  Quote: V.S.
                  aha - they will decide on June 18 - to postpone the attack on BEFORE June 18 or what? Or - on the 21st or 20th or 19th?))

                  As early as June 11, they could postpone the date of the attack to June 14-18, if they understood that we had begun strategic deployment and mobilization began, for example, from June 11-12.
                  Quote: V.S.
                  But in any case, June 18 is not the date of the attack after all already?

                  This date, after which it did not make sense to postpone the attack scheduled for June 22, if only in our country there had not been events associated with a preemptive strike on the concentrated parts of the Wehrmacht.
                  Quote: V.S.
                  from JANUARY moreover, as on June 21

                  It turns out they pohiruyut this directive, and attacked not June 21, but 22. So decide for yourself which directive they performed, and what date was determined final.
                  Quote: V.S.
                  it was about a SPECIFIC question - about the armies of the RGCs that supposedly did not have time to go directly to the border itself!

                  Understand yourselves with your Isaev - you yourself have so many different things that you sometimes think that you have already become utterly superior to all the commanders of the Great Patriotic War. Marshall epaulettes do not press much on the shoulders?
                  Quote: V.S.
                  And you want and Stalin will not go anywhere - the deer will sign you. 3))

                  Yes, Stalin only listened to Zhukov and was afraid of him - tell this tale to someone else. Directive No. 3 was not signed by Stalin - why did you drag it at all, especially since the war has already begun?

                  Quote: V.S.
                  The words YEREMENKO lead -

                  Words are not necessary - better bring the documents and calculate the density of our troops in ZAPOVO and KOVO. You have problems with this, although I already drove you to the table with these numbers, but you seem to be still fighting Zhukov in your universe.
                  Quote: V.S.
                  YOU if you don’t know something - about what Zhukov did - then better keep silent

                  Zhukov had a boss who signed orders and directives, and the time spent by Zhukov at the post of the National High School was so short that he could not do anything serious - he only did what he was ordered to. However, you still don’t understand this - you’re a fighter with Zhukov, and I’m interested in historical truth, not your speculations, which is why I don’t believe in your fantasies.
                  1. VS
                    VS 14 June 2020 10: 20 New
                    -2
                    Quote: ccsr
                    As early as June 11, they could postpone the date of the attack to June 14-18, if they understood that we had begun strategic deployment and mobilization began, for example, from June 11-12.

                    Enough if only if you play from scratch. Cho YOU ​​personally want to see there in the document - NOT IMPORTANT! There is a fact and the DOCUMENT - in JANUARY a decision was made to attack - June 21! There were NO OTHER dates for Hitler or the German military according to DOCUMENTS, and by June 10 there was NEVER! And by how much%, this date is considered FINAL in January - yes, spit! It is natural that in January the date is not completely accepted as accurate and final! But Hitler did not consider ANOTHER date NEVER and this is confirmed by DOCUMENTS and facts - in January an order was signed with the date June 21, April 30, Hitler at the EXTENDED meeting of the military and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Germany announces the date of the attack as June 22 and on May 1 he announces this date again among the military General Staff of Germany, and on June 10 the date is finally legalized as June 22! ALL! THERE ARE NOT FUCKING ANYTHING to PURPOSE and compose if only if yes)) Calm down finally))) deal with the nonsense of the anonymous in THIS article))

                    Quote: ccsr
                    from JANUARY moreover, as on June 21

                    It turns out they pohiruyut this directive, and attacked not June 21, but 22. So decide for yourself which directive they performed, and what date was determined final.

                    yes p .. bt ((And if you had hit at 23.30 p.m. on June 21, then cho - would much change?

                    what a bore you are (((

                    Quote: ccsr
                    it was about a SPECIFIC question - about the armies of the RGCs that supposedly did not have time to go directly to the border itself!

                    Understand yourselves with your Isaev - you yourself have so many different things that you sometimes think that you have already become utterly superior to all the commanders of the Great Patriotic War. Marshall epaulettes do not press much on the shoulders?

                    but as I understand it, it’s just envious of you that it was I and you didn’t see Isaev’s stupidity and that upset you ())) And for more than two months you have taken out my mind from scratch for me and then told me what you said about these armies of the RGK))

                    Quote: ccsr
                    you yourself have so many different things that you sometimes think that you have already become utterly superior to all the commanders of the Great Patriotic War. Marshall epaulettes do not press much on the shoulders?

                    read what about what these commanders in the pre-war plans wrote Zakharov or lessons and conclusions)))

                    Quote: ccsr
                    Stalin only listened to Zhukov and was afraid of him - tell this tale to someone else. Directive No. 3 was not signed by Stalin - why did you drag it at all, especially since the war has already begun?

                    Ie you do not know what deer. 3 is an ATTEMPT to implement GSH-Zhukov’s pre-war plans and that without Stalin’s permission it would not have appeared (((which it was also asserted on the basis of false reports of the General Staff from 10.00 and 14.00 - about the situation on the border (((

                    Quote: ccsr
                    The words YEREMENKO lead -

                    Words are not necessary - better bring the documents and calculate the density of our troops in ZAPOVO and KOVO. You have problems with this, although I already drove you to the table with these numbers, but you seem to be still fighting Zhukov in your universe.


                    you don’t always succeed in carrying an anonymously here))) I showed you HOW Zhukov shuffled the troops in June! And you tell me about densities unnecessary in this case, rub for some reason))

                    You want docks and about densities - so open the deployment of troops by June 22 and compare it with the note-note of Vatutin on June 13 - in KOVO there are NO some armies in real life and Vatutin enters them there !!)) And it does this for some time dated 15- May May yet !! )))

                    If something you DO NOT KNOW it might be better to keep silent would be smarter?))

                    look what you have fooled here again - I brought you the FACTS and the docks about which you did not know - about the date of the attack - that in JANUARY since .. the date of the attack on the Soviet Socialist Republic was approved - in JANUARY already !! ORDERS OF Brauchitsch and, respectively, and HITLER !! And he also showed the FACTS that on April 30 and May 1, HITLER ORIGINALLY named the military and the Foreign Ministry the date of the attack on the Soviet Socialist Republic - June 22! And on June 10, HE SAME approved the final date as June 22 !!
                    You didn’t know this damn thing, but instead of keeping silent and assimilating, they rushed to carry HERNIUS from scratch about if only if !! You just in an empty place have spread verbiage about anything !! You wanted a srach between US - those who WHO kicks the anonymous cretins of the followers of Rezun - you got this srach !!)) The question is - well, why the hell did you arrange this srach then?))

                    Quote: ccsr
                    Zhukov had a boss who signed orders and directives, and the time spent by Zhukov at the post of the National High School was so short that he could not do anything serious - he only did what he was ordered to. However, you still don’t understand this - you’re a fighter with Zhukov, and I’m interested in historical truth, not your speculations, which is why I don’t believe in your fantasies.

                    for starters, you will study the FACTS and documents - it’s NOT I who shows it all — I ZAKHAROV, officers of the General Staff of the General Staff, Gareevs and others who are smarter and I and YOU know exactly about the role of the Unter genius in the tragedy of the outbreak of war ..

                    Do you want as Isaev STALIN guilty to call the tragedy of the beginning of the war? DOES NOT COME ... after all, Isaev ISSAID considers guilty - like the local anonymous))).
                    1. ccsr
                      ccsr 14 June 2020 12: 57 New
                      0
                      Quote: V.S.
                      There is a fact and the DOCUMENT - in JANUARY a decision was made to attack - June 21!

                      This date could be changed several times during this period for various objective reasons. It would not have occurred to more than one commander for half a year to set an exact date for the beginning of the war - this is nonsense even from the point of view of keeping the date a secret.
                      Quote: V.S.
                      and on June 10, the date is finally legalized as June 22! ALL! THERE ARE NOT FUCKING ANYTHING to PURPOSE and compose if only if yes)) Calm down at last))) deal with the nonsense of the anonymous in THIS article))

                      Это ты успокойся и сам пойми, что если бы эта дата была определена зимой или в мае, то зачем было издавать директиву от 10 июня. Ты хоть мозги включи для начала, и задумайся над этим, и почему 10 июня был предусмотрен сигнал "Альтона", о котором в директиве Браухича нет ни слова. Ты хоть понимаешь почему это делается, или так и будешь упираться, не желая понимать для чего пишутся такие директивы, где закрепляется окончательная дата начала войны.
                      Quote: V.S.
                      If something you DO NOT KNOW it might be better to keep silent would be smarter?))

                      You are our smartest, I have no doubt, only in some issues you have too big gaps, and this creeps out when you climb with your next fix idea. This is noticeable from the outside, and your interpretation of Brauhich’s directive has completely shown that you didn’t fulfill it, how do the planning directions differ from the executive ones.
                      Quote: V.S.
                      for starters, you will study the FACTS and documents - it’s NOT I who shows it all — I ZAKHAROV, officers of the General Staff of the General Staff, Gareevs and others who are smarter and I and YOU know exactly about the role of the Unter genius in the tragedy of the outbreak of war ..

                      Хватит демагогии - ты сначала сам научись правильно понимать служебные документы, прежде чем мне будешь указывать как я их должен понимать. С меня хватило твоего понимания "главных сил" , которое ты извратил ради протолкивания своих взглядов, выхватив их из текста, и приписав это понятие к КОВО, когда речь шла о всех западных приграничных округах. Когда научишься правильно понимать документы, вот тогда и будем обсуждать твои выводы по ним, а ссылки на кого-то меня давно не волнуют, я уже это прочел.
  10. VS
    VS 10 June 2020 15: 27 New
    -9
    "" В таблице нет данных по ПрибОВО, который представил заявку несколько позже. По словам историка С. Л. Чекунова, сборы в указанном округе должны были начаться 24 июня. "

    LYING!! According to the fees in Pribovo it has long been known - 36 THOUSANDY ascribed from the MBO in May June should have arrived in this district !!! But due to the fault of the headquarters of PribOVO, which did not give birth to an application for MBO for these ascribed - the fees were disrupted !!!
  11. VS
    VS 10 June 2020 15: 33 New
    -10
    ""В основном приписной состав для указанных дивизий призывался на 45 суток и должен был находиться в соединениях с 1…15 по 15-30 июля. Вероятно, в этот период в ГШ ожидали начало войны с Германией или получение отсрочки от войны на некоторое время… ""
    oh you're False ... anonymous)))
    ASSESSED CHARGES STARTED to be held from MAY already !!!

    Специально для МЕРЗАВЦЕВ ЛЖИВЫХ и анонимных лгунов офицеры ВНУ ГШ в работе "1941 год - уроки и выводы" показали ЧТО ДЕЛАЛОСЬ и ПОЧЕМУ:

    ""2.3. СТРАТЕГИЧЕСКОЕ РАЗВЕРТЫВАНИЕ ВООРУЖЕННЫХ СИЛ НАКАНУНЕ ВОЙНЫ, ГРУППИРОВКА ВОЙСК И СОСТОЯНИЕ ЕЕ ГОТОВНОСТИ НА 22 ИЮНЯ 1941 Г.
    The political and military leadership of the Soviet Union, 11 days after Hitler approved the Barbarossa plan on December 18, 1940, had information from intelligence agencies about Germany’s direct preparations for war against the USSR. Since February 1941, the People’s Commissariat of Defense and the General Staff had information about the formation of three army groups aimed at striking at Leningrad, Moscow, Kiev, and about the beginning of the transfer of forces (up to 66 divisions) to the Soviet
    80
    the border. According to intelligence reports, by April 20, the group of forces had increased to 90 divisions. The reports also reported on the forces and means of the allies of Germany, concentrated along the western border of the USSR {119}.
    В Under these conditions, the General Staff, having received permission from the Soviet government, had planned and implemented a complex of measures since February 1941 with the goal of preparing the army and navy for successfully solving the tasks of the upcoming war.
    In the immediate preparation and implementation of the strategic deployment of the Armed Forces, three stages can be seen.
    At the first stage (February - March) additional decisions were taken and further development of measures for the reorganization, technical re-equipment and organizational strengthening of the Armed Forces, accelerated theater equipment, which continued until the outbreak of war.
    The second stage (April - early June) - planning and implementation by the General Staff, with the permission of the government, of secretive mobilization of troops and advancement of the army of the reserve of the High Command (second strategic echelon) to operational areasI am.
    At the third stage (early June - June 22, 1941), decisions were made and the advancement of second echelons (reserves) of the western border military districts began, as well as specific measures were taken to increase the combat readiness of the covering army (appendix 18).
    ""

    ANONYMOUS - are you not tired
    1. cavl
      cavl 11 June 2020 11: 06 New
      +5
      One Kozinkin is lying. The man is so roguish
    2. cavl
      cavl 11 June 2020 17: 14 New
      +4
      Why repeat someone else’s lie? By February 1941, according to intelligence, there were 66 German divisions. Correctly written in the book.
      But in reality there were thirty-four divisions. THIS IS VISIBLE ON THE MAP OF THE GENERAL STAFF OF THE DRIVER FORCES OF VERMAHTA!
      And if an officer calmly lies in small things, then they lie to large
    3. strannik1985
      strannik1985 15 June 2020 14: 41 New
      0
      ASSIGNMENT COLLECTIONS STARTED to be held with MAY already!

      Can you tell me how many cars and horsemen were drafted into the army for these charges? And at the same time, please remind me how many cars and horses are needed to bring the 04/100 staff to 04/400?
      It is even better to compare BUS 1939 and BUS 1941; there will be a very interesting picture.
  12. VS
    VS 10 June 2020 15: 38 New
    -8
    "" До начала войны ЗабВО не планировал призывать приписной состав для доукомплектования своих сд. Поэтому эта дивизия не была готова отправиться на запад. И это правильно, т.к. ни 25 мая, ни 15 июня никто не ожидал начала войны с Германией""

    LYING!!
    ТО что ЭТА армия выдвигалась не отмобилизованная не значит что НАПАДЕНИЕ не ждали"!! ЧИТАЙ лжец КОНЕВА мемуары - ТОТ ПОКАЗЫВАЕТ что ЕГО армия в СевКав ВО БЫЛА полностью ОТМОБИЛИЗОВАНА в конце мая и убыла под КИЕВ!! И армия из ПриВО также выдвигалась ПОЛНОСТЬЮ отмобилизованная!!!

    So what conclusions will you make of the LIAR on THESE ARMIES? The attack did not wait?
  13. VS
    VS 10 June 2020 15: 42 New
    -8
    Интересно получается: 16-я армия направляется якобы на войну на запад, а одна из ее дивизий не укомплектована, хотя в НКО фонды по призывникам остались. Этот случай никак не похож на отъезд 16-й армии на войну 22 июня…"

    And Konev’s ARMY - the 19th - at the same time was advancing FULLY mobilized!
    So what conclusions do you make a liar about her? What - a liar - NOT INTERESTING to be smart about this army?))

    You grab only the facts that YOU are a liar anonymous interesting?))

    For idiots and liars anonymous - oops ... in the PMA the armies also moved from the east of RI to the West - UNMOBILIZED !!) And even during the ongoing war)))
    1. cavl
      cavl 11 June 2020 17: 06 New
      +4
      The answer is below. Deceived kozinkin. He never writes the truth, but only fiction from a sick little head
  14. VS
    VS 11 June 2020 08: 58 New
    -7
    Quote: ccsr
    in JANUARY there was a directive BRAUCHICH - to the version of Barbarossa - in which the DATE OF ATTACK was CLEARLY ESTABLISHED - June 21 !!!

    Do not distort Oleg, because the Brauchitsch’s directive indicates about PREPARATORY WORKS, and not the date of the attack on the USSR:
    «Подготовительные работы нужно провести таким образом, чтобы наступление (день "Б") могло быть начато 21.6.»

    Do you argue for the sake of argument? THAT IS X .. right now you started arguing again in the EMPTY place then?))

    фраза - «Подготовительные работы нужно провести таким образом, чтобы наступление (день "Б") могло быть начато 21.6.» - ЧТО ОЗНАЧАЕТ? НАПАДЕНИЕ НАЧАТЬ 21 июня или - неизвестно когда?
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 11 June 2020 11: 38 New
      +1
      Quote: V.S.
      WHAT DOES IT MEAN? ATTACK TO START June 21 or - it is not known when?

      Yes, for such a time, no date is assigned - this is a war, not a parade about the October Revolution, when the date is known in advance. And even then the bummer came out in 1991 - the parade did not take place, although it was listed in the list of activities of the Ministry of Defense for this year. And it is not appointed, if only because it is necessary to avoid information leaks, but most importantly, no one knows how the situation will develop not only with the enemy, but also in their own country.
      WHAT DOES IT MEAN?

      Это означает что надо быть в готовности - точно так, как если объявляют "Боевую тревогу" в части, то это не значит что начнется война, даже если часть выйдет в район развертывания.
  15. VS
    VS 11 June 2020 09: 11 New
    -6
    Quote: ccsr
    NOT THIS WAY! in JANUARY there was a BRAUCHICH directive - to the Barbaross version - in which the DATE OF ATTACK was DETERMINEDLY SET - June 21 !!!

    Do not distort Oleg, because the Brauchitsch’s directive indicates about PREPARATORY WORKS, and not the date of the attack on the USSR:
    «Подготовительные работы нужно провести таким образом, чтобы наступление (день "Б") могло быть начато 21.6.»

    you wrote BAD full - what 31.5.1941 The Germans themselves did not know that the attack would take place on June 22, because Halder’s directive was issued only on June 10, 1941, and it stipulated two dates - June 18 and 22 and a conditional signal by which troops would be notified of the attack on the USSR.!

    I answered YOU that THIS is Nonsense - The date of the attack was set even in JANUARY 41 in Brauchitsch’s order!
    And all the more nonsense that Halder’s order had TWO dates - it stipulated two dates - June 18 and 22!

    This is WHAT you said right now - what was in the order of the halder - TWO Dates of the attack - June 18 and 22?
    ...............
    So it’s better to refrain on the dates of the attack if you simply don’t know THIS, but rather kick the local anonymous ..
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 11 June 2020 11: 46 New
      +1
      Quote: V.S.
      I answered YOU THAT THIS IS BAD - DATE of the attack was set even in JANUARY 41 on Braukhich’s order!

      This is just your point of view, which will cause a grin at the same Slavin - you can ask his opinion about your statement. By the way, it was Brauhich’s Directive, and not an order - at least sort this out for a start.
      Quote: V.S.
      And all the more nonsense that Halder’s order had TWO dates - it stipulated two dates - June 18 and 22!

      В Директиве Гальдера 18 июня дается как контрольная дата для принятия окончательного решения, что война начнется именно 22 июня, а не 15 июня к примеру. Это вполне нормальная предусмотрительность в такой ответственный момент. Не зря специально во многих боевых документах вводится термин "Ч+...."
  16. cavl
    cavl 11 June 2020 11: 03 New
    +5
    Quote: V.S.
    "" До начала войны ЗабВО не планировал призывать приписной состав для доукомплектования своих сд. Поэтому эта дивизия не была готова отправиться на запад. И это правильно, т.к. ни 25 мая, ни 15 июня никто не ожидал начала войны с Германией""

    LYING!!
    ТО что ЭТА армия выдвигалась не отмобилизованная не значит что НАПАДЕНИЕ не ждали"!! ЧИТАЙ лжец КОНЕВА мемуары - ТОТ ПОКАЗЫВАЕТ что ЕГО армия в СевКав ВО БЫЛА полностью ОТМОБИЛИЗОВАНА в конце мая и убыла под КИЕВ!! И армия из ПриВО также выдвигалась ПОЛНОСТЬЮ отмобилизованная!!!

    So what conclusions will you make of the LIAR on THESE ARMIES? The attack did not wait?

    You would be a writer of children's science fiction, at least look at the terms from military science. And then write nonsense, and here people are adults and smart.

    Mobilization
    a complex of measures for the transfer of formations, units to the organization and wartime states.

    As an example, give information on at least one Konev’s division moving out of the North Caucasus District with a wartime staff for which the number of personnel exceeded 14000.
    That's because liar Kozinkin ... Just to deceive readers who do not know history well.
  17. VS
    VS 11 June 2020 15: 07 New
    -6
    Quote: cavl
    One Kozinkin is lying. The man is so roguish

    I and your friend anonymous cited the words of OFFICERS ONE GSH - dispute or went vorn)))
    1. cavl
      cavl 11 June 2020 17: 04 New
      +4
      And the words of the officers are lies. The option of an attack was not determined either in December or in March.
      Submit intelligence data. There, if you read literally, the meaning is different.
      As he was an ignoramus, so he remained.
      With mechanized corps about their conclusion to the cover plans, after all, he also lied.
      And he lied to his readers about it.
      And when Eugene proved to you in every division that you were lying, then our olezhka merged ...
      And when Oleg Yuryevich wrote THREE times about the nomination of the 2nd mechanized corps according to cover plans, it was the height of ignorance!
      VED 2 MECHANICAL CASE CANNOT BE ADVISED ON THE COVERAGE PLAN ONE, AS HE IS THE CASE OF THE RESERVE OF THE MAIN COMMAND AND IS NOT IN THE COVERAGE PLAN OF THE OGVO CASE OF THE RGK.
      How not to know such basic things, ignoramus?
  18. VS
    VS 11 June 2020 15: 08 New
    -5
    Quote: ccsr
    WHAT DOES IT MEAN? ATTACK TO START June 21 or - it is not known when?

    Yes, for such a time, no date is assigned - this is a war, not a parade about the October Revolution, when the date is known in advance.

    SO WHAT HAS BEEN APPOINTED - ATTACKING THE SSR or what?
  19. VS
    VS 11 June 2020 15: 10 New
    -5
    Quote: ccsr
    I answered YOU THAT THIS IS BAD - DATE of the attack was set even in JANUARY 41 on Braukhich’s order!

    This is just your point of view, which will cause a grin at the same Slavin - you can ask his opinion about your statement. By the way, it was Brauhich’s Directive, and not an order - at least sort this out for a start.

    Wonderful - WHAT IS SPECIFIED IN THIS DIRECTIVE verbiage are you mine? NOT THE DATE OF THE ATTACK But - what?
  20. VS
    VS 11 June 2020 15: 12 New
    -5
    Quote: ccsr
    The Halder Directive June 18 is given as a reference date for making the final decision that the war will begin on June 22, and not June 15, for example

    Well, thank God)) How could I have worked out this idiot without you (((You didn’t beat you at school or school for boredom, or you took him for hell - you’re gagging everyone from scratch with verbiage about and without?
  21. VS
    VS 11 June 2020 15: 18 New
    -7
    Quote: cavl
    For example, provide information on at least one Konev’s division, which is moving out of the North Caucasus District with a wartime staff, according to which the number of personnel exceeded 14000.
    That's because liar Kozinkin ... Just to deceive readers who do not know history well.

    googled those to help an anonymous ignoramus)) PROVE that they did not wait for the attack and the troops pulled mushrooms and out of nothing to do - or how to tell RESUZN to attack first on July 6 .. and then at your leisure find KONEV’s memoirs and read that he wrote about it ! Well, memoirs on the 16th army suit you - didn’t rush to check how it was in reality? here’s Konev’s memoirs, believe in words or - go anonymous)))
    1. cavl
      cavl 11 June 2020 16: 56 New
      +5
      Oh, what a puncture the linden historian has !?
      So where did your notion come from, Oleg Y. Kozinkin, that the North Caucasian Military District divisions were mobilizing. This means 4/400 staff, over 14000 people ...
      How not to know such basic things, woe-writer!
      In addition, the article in the table shows the numbers of divisions and their staff and the number of assigned personnel.
      That is, you also twist the text. Rogue.
      How to scribble paper for 12 years, hang noodles for gullible readers and not know that the General Staff directive even lists the number of arrived divisions from the North Caucasus Military District.
      SO THAT KOZINKIN IS UNLECTED, WHO DOES NOT KNOW THE MOST ELEMENTARY ITEMS.
      I SAME WRITING THAT YOUR KNOWLEDGE ABOUT PRE-WAR EVENTS AT THE LEVEL OF A SCHOOL STUDENT OF INITIAL CLASSES!
  22. VS
    VS 11 June 2020 15: 20 New
    -6
    Quote: ccsr
    Quote: V.S.
    WHAT DOES IT MEAN? ATTACK TO START June 21 or - it is not known when?

    Yes, for such a time, no date is assigned - this is a war, not a parade about the October Revolution, when the date is known in advance. And even then the bummer came out in 1991 - the parade did not take place, although it was listed in the list of activities of the Ministry of Defense for this year. And it is not appointed, if only because it is necessary to avoid information leaks, but most importantly, no one knows how the situation will develop not only with the enemy, but also in their own country.
    WHAT DOES IT MEAN?

    Это означает что надо быть в готовности - точно так, как если объявляют "Боевую тревогу" в части, то это не значит что начнется война, даже если часть выйдет в район развертывания.

    so set the date of the attack as June 21 in January of the 41st or not?))
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 11 June 2020 18: 56 New
      +1
      Quote: V.S.
      so set the date of the attack as June 21 in January of the 41st or not?

      Don’t be dumb in the end - this date is determined for the preparatory work, and their end does not mean an automatic start of the war: “Preparatory work must be carried out in this way., чтобы наступление (день "Б") could be started 21.6. ".
      Тебе слова "могло быть начато" перевести на военный, или сам допрешь в конце-концов что это означает для военного человека? Кстати, дата указана 21 июня, а война началась 22 июня - ты что в упор этого не видишь, или думаешь что этого никто не заметит?
  23. VS
    VS 13 June 2020 10: 42 New
    -3
    Quote: cavl
    the words of the officers are lies. The option of an attack was not determined either in December or in March.
    Submit intelligence data. There, if you read literally, the meaning is different.

    no one cares - WHAT washed away the anonymous d .. and BATANS see)) It’s IMPORTANT that where the officers of the General Staff of the General Staff understand))
  24. VS
    VS 13 June 2020 10: 45 New
    -3
    Quote: cavl
    where did your notion come from, Oleg Y. Kozinkin, that the North Caucasian Military District divisions were mobilizing. This means 4/400 staff, over 14000 people ...
    How not to know such basic things, woe-writer!
    In addition, the article in the table shows the numbers of divisions and their staff and the number of assigned personnel.

    with horse BATAN argue)))
    Quote: cavl
    where did your notion come from, Oleg Y. Kozinkin, that the North Caucasian Military District divisions were mobilizing. This means 4/400 staff, over 14000 people ...

    you bet HORSE an anonymous batan)) and I'll take a look)))
  25. VS
    VS 13 June 2020 10: 49 New
    -4
    Quote: ccsr
    Quote: V.S.
    so set the date of the attack as June 21 in January of the 41st or not?

    Don’t be dumb in the end - this date is determined for the preparatory work, and their end does not mean an automatic start of the war: “Preparatory work must be carried out in this way., чтобы наступление (день "Б") could be started 21.6. ".
    Тебе слова "могло быть начато" перевести на военный, или сам допрешь в конце-концов что это означает для военного человека? Кстати, дата указана 21 июня, а война началась 22 июня - ты что в упор этого не видишь, или думаешь что этого никто не заметит?

    that is, they beat you for boring at the school for sure, and the cadets didn’t take you into autonomy (((

    ISCHO - ONCE IF IF YES, IT IS IMPORTANT! In January, DATE is set AS June 21 !! With all the nuances, it is the date of the attack and remained - HOW June 22! The rest is ZANUDA verbiage and lyrics for empty chatter)) And if YOU DO NOT READ - until I showed you - this order is not my problem)))
  26. VS
    VS 15 June 2020 14: 01 New
    -2
    Quote: ccsr
    This date could be changed several times during this period for various objective reasons.

    yes, spit on yours if yes if only)) FIND at least ONE transfer from January to June 10 when this date was transferred to some other number)))