Military Review

Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact: an opportunity to change the world

159

foreword



Yes, from the very first line: this is an alternative version of what could happen. The basis for it was the ambitions of the participants and their opportunities, but in general it is nothing more than entertainment for the mind from the cycle “It could have been so.”

By popular demand of readers, so to speak. Do not quite understand the essence previous article about Hitler and his political mistakes.

1. Could it be like that?


Could it be that the Soviet Union and Germany did not agree in a war, but vice versa? Under certain conditions, yes.

Historically, Germany and Russia were not exactly friends, but the Germans delivered empresses to us systematically and regularly. Yes, in 1917 this business was stopped, but in Germany itself, as it were, a little of everything ... was democratized.

But even with democratized Germans we were able to make friends. Yes, Hitler dismissed this case, but in the end, who is his doctor? In general, of course, a doctor was needed, for dreams of world domination by dreams, and resource bases - by resources and people. And without them, you can’t build a world-class empire.


Hitler really wanted to conquer the whole world, build his Third Reich on half a planet, and so on. Today you can shrug, but: the starting resource, as it were.

2. Who and where?


In general, if you look right, then Germany and the Third Reich are not the same thing. These are generally two different differences, if only because if you believe the German historian Burkhardt Müller-Hildebrandt ("German Army in 1939-1945", EKSMO publishing house, Moscow, 2002), and we have no reason not to believe him, then on the page 700 of his work is: “The population of Germany in 1939 amounted to 80,6 million people” ...

Germany. Although this already includes Austria (6,76 million people), Saarland (0,8 million people) and the Sudetenland (3,64 million people).

And the Reich, the Reich of the 1941 model - we still ply Danzig and Memel (0,54 million people), Poznan and Upper Silesia (9,63 million people), Luxembourg, Alsace and Lorraine (2,2 million people).

Total - about 92 million people. For an even account - 90 million. And this, I emphasize boldly, we are talking only about the Germans, who could be called up to the Wehrmacht. And yes, I do not take into account the governor-general of Poland and the imperial protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia, where not only were there many Germans, they were easily called upon throughout the war.

Enough. 90 million people. With minerals, it’s frankly not very, but the excellent industrial base of Germany, the Czech Republic and Poland (and in the future also France).

And if you prove the magnificent resource base of the USSR and 190 million people? Can I take the risk and implement the idea of ​​world domination?

Can. But there are two ways. The first is the path of conquest, which, in fact, was chosen in Germany. With the corresponding result. The second is the path of agreement. More productive and less costly.

3. How and with whom to negotiate?


Yes, this is the most interesting question. A lot of fans from the alternative make the main mistake: they begin to talk about "And if Stalin had agreed with Hitler."

I would not agree. Firstly, Stalin had a good idea that there was his German opponent. And he didn’t especially build illusions, that’s why even if he really wanted to, he couldn’t find ANY document that had the signatures of Stalin and Hitler.

That says a lot. It would be difficult to negotiate with Hitler in general, because he had on his agenda the Third Reich in all its glory, and even with the theory of racial purity. Lenin’s pupil, who was clearly Stalin, all of this clearly disgusted. Yes, to build communism in their own country, yes, to bring communism to other peoples of the world — that was normal for Stalin. But here is the theory of "racial purity" in the multinational USSR ...

Not. Impossible.


And here many will say that everything, this can end. It was unrealistic to agree, and so it happened.

It was unrealistic to agree with Hitler. But what, besides him, in the 90 millionth Germany there were no more people? It’s impossible to find one or two presidential candidates in Russia’s 146 millionth today, but in Germany there were people of such a flight.

It is no secret that in his entire life 16 attempts were made on Hitler. You know, this only says that, firstly, the Führer was lucky in full, and secondly, amateurs worked. If any NORMAL intelligence service of that time would have taken up the matter, cremation would have taken place much earlier. Who does not believe, let him ask Trotsky, Arutyunov / Agabekov, Bandera ...

And here the question arises: why not for the sake of Germany to beat Adolf Aloizovich a little earlier? Well, or for the sake of building peace and communism on Earth ... Given the fact that the Fuhrer does not turn his tongue into a coward, this is also a fact, he really neglected the guard, so eliminating it would not be difficult for professionals to eliminate it.

What next? And then, oddly enough, in Germany there were people with whom we could negotiate and make plans for the future.

Of course, Hitler's first assistant and secretary of Hess would hardly have suited this role. As well as Bormann, who was far from ideal politician. Let's just say that of the first ten, or rather, the five, Goering would be the best fit.

Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact: an opportunity to change the world

Although German possessed the badge of party No. 23, he was, to put it mildly, far from the jumps in terms of racial purity. But in fact, the only one from the party elite who was not fixated on this. Pretty indicative phrase: "In my ministry, I decide who my Jew is."

Let's just say a piece that could play. You can offer several more candidates, but the essence will be the same: a person should be sane, understand what is happening and see this perspective.

And to say that Molotov or Malenkov could adequately speak on behalf of the USSR, if Stalin himself did not consider it effective for himself ... Although in general Molotov should have signed such papers as agreements on friendship, non-aggression and the like.

So there was someone to agree on both sides. The question is, what next?

4. And what next?


And then we get that we need to sit down at the negotiating table and deal with sentences. Sentences in the first place of the world imperialist system, which no party would definitely object to. Germany, from which they drank all the blood following the results of the First World War, and the Soviet Union, which, as it were, was not a supporter of the capitalist platform.

That is, both countries had against whom to be friends. Against the "winners" who are a little of that ... plump. It is clear that this refers to the United Kingdom and the United States, which not only had a good rap from that war, they also had their own views on the future.

So, “Lebensraum” for Germany (and it would be nice to return the captured colonies) and new peoples to the USSR family that was friendly at that time.

If you look at the data 22.06.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX, you get a picture that is very impressive. Eastern front.

154 German divisions.
42 divisions of all these German "allies".
186 divisions of the western districts of the USSR.

Remember the "Axis countries": Germany, Japan and Italy? Here it is for sure that the Italians "did not shine." Yes, they had a good one, oh, they had a very decent fleet, but ... with Italian crews. The Italians sat in tanks, and on planes. That is, very below average, which the war showed in all its glory.

And right there:
51th division of the Japanese imperial army.
68 Soviet divisions in the Far East.

In general, at that time we had a total of 303 divisions in the Red Army. And in the Wehrmacht - 208. Total 500 and 600 with all these Italians, French, Hungarians, Romanians and Finns. The Japanese - this is serious. They then increased their army by five times simply at the click of the emperor’s fingers.

But in the end, 500 divisions.

And a new union: Germany - Soviet Union - Japan.

The rest, Hungary, Romania, Italy, Finland, - at the dancers.

Moreover, all of Europe is already behind the Germans. The inhabited part of China is with the Japanese.

And here the fun begins. Because the Second World War is already underway and something needs to be done with all this.

5. We have to go ... south!


Immediately, we note the most important thing - even with so many people, tanks, guns, mortars, nothing can be done with Britain. The landing operation against this country could be carried out only in the wildest dreams.

English Channel, you see ...

And the fleets of our union are very so-so. I wrote about the Soviet one, there was nothing particularly valuable there, except for 7 light cruisers of “Project 26”, 59 destroyers and 200 submarines. So here, the boats, perhaps.

We know about the German fleet. 1 battleship (Bismarck by that time was already all), 2 half-battleships (Scharnhorst and Gneisenau), 5 heavy and 6 light cruisers. 22 destroyers and 57 submarines. Well, the reserve for the production of submarines was simply amazing, the Germans riveted more than a thousand for the war.

The Italian fleet ... 4 battleships, 6 heavy and 14 light cruisers. 130 destroyers. Yes, the numbers are confident, but I repeat, Italian ships.

The British fleet consisted of 15 battleships, 15 heavy and 49 light cruisers, 158 destroyers and 68 submarines. And 6 aircraft carriers.


That is, British metal would demolish any landing operation from the sea.


I am silent about the Japanese fleet on purpose: although it was magnificent in essence, the US fleet loomed behind it, which in numbers was no worse. The Yankees had 5 battleships and 100 destroyers, so there was a pure containment issue.

Well, the British will stay on the islands.

So, you need to go where you can implement such a huge army. South.

Here we have the political map of 1940. American, so forgive them Mongolia as part of the USSR. The perspective is interesting.


From this perspective, it is clear that Japan has begun the process, Manzhou-go is already on the map without problems, and vice versa, Xinjiang and Tibet have not yet reached China. There is no Pakistan that the British will single out only after the war and so on.

What do we see?

We see a chain of British colonies and protectorates. India, Afghanistan, Iran and so on up to Egypt. Each of the colonies supplied the metropolis with something, for it was precisely at the expense of the empire's colonies that they lived at all times.

And here is another drawing. Map of the railways of the USSR. And from this map it becomes clear and understandable that it was not very difficult for us to transfer a certain number of divisions to the south, closer to the borders of Iran and India, even in those times. Sorry, in 1941, they were transferred from the Far East, and in 1945, back.


Plus, in the region of Turkey, which has always been oriented to Germany. But as the practice of the First World War showed, the Turks were not very eager for battle, remembering the British possibilities.

But with the presence of the Soviet Union in the region ... Yes, with ambition ...

So, look at the map.

Germany. Since the whole of Europe has been captured, there is really nothing to do there. Alternatively, North Africa, that is, Arabian oil and the Suez Canal, the control of which is a very useful thing.

But instead of the miserable corps of Africa, which was an infantry and tank division with support units, it was quite possible to send to Africa the number of troops that would be needed to take control of the north of the African continent.

Let's just say that 10-15 full-fledged divisions with lubricants from the Italian units would quite normally have done what two Rommel divisions could not. Although Rommel worked wonders with so many troops.


And given the fact that the Luftwaffe had to arrange a blitzkrieg on the Eastern Front, only seagulls would fly freely in the Mediterranean Sea. And even with an eye on German planes.

A very useful action would be the “squeeze” of General Franco, followed by the blockade and capture of Gibraltar. After that, the entrance to the Mediterranean Sea would be under German control, and the delivery of troops to Africa would become very simple and calm.

And the capture of French Morocco (the city of Ceuta specifically) would have generally closed the British entrance to the Mediterranean Sea.


Could this be done with a reserve of 100 divisions? Yes easily.

Moving on.

6. To each - his own


Soviet Union. We clearly began Persian dances, that is, Iran was on the agenda, initially oriented, like Turkey, to Germany.

Given that the possibility of deploying troops over great distances was and was used, there is not even any doubt that friendly assistance to Iran against the British colonialists was as successful as the occupation of this country in 1941.


On August 25, 1941, troops of the 44th Army under the command of Major General A. A. Khadeev and 47th Army under the command of Major General V.V. Novikov entered Iranian territory. On August 27, troops of the Central Asian military district crossed the Soviet-Iranian border from the Caspian Sea to Zulfagar. This operation was carried out by the 53rd Separate Central Asian Army, led by the commander of the district, Lieutenant General S. G. Trofimenko. On August 31, in the Iranian Astarta area, a landing was part of the 105th Mountain Rifle Regiment and the artillery division of the 77th Mountain Rifle Division. Soviet gunboats entered the ports of Pahlavi, Noushehr, Bendershah. In total, over 2,5 thousand paratroopers were transported and landed.


We introduced about 30 thousand people to Iran. The British are about the same from Syria. Attention, the question is: what could prevent the increase in the figure from 30 to 50 thousand, so that the British soldiers did not even rock the boat?

It's nothing.

Given that it was really easy to organize the transfer not only by land, but also by the Caspian Sea, Iran would very quickly and easily become a springboard for a further attack on Iraq and Syria. In addition, Turkey has always had warm oil feelings for Syria, which, I am sure, in this situation, it would have simply rushed into the battle against the British.

The result could be a meeting. But not on the Elbe, but somewhere in the sands of the Arabian Peninsula. The Germans and Italians on the one hand, ours on the other.

Farther. Next is a huge enclave, India and Afghanistan. A suitcase without a handle, uncomfortable and heavy. Given that even the British could not restore order there, a dubious acquisition, to be honest.

But given that the population of India simply adored their colonialists, I think that a year of work in the sweat of the face of Abwehr specialists in India would not be just a “fifth column”, it would flare up in full.

The only question is the need. One could make a protectorate on the principle of Bohemia. Only bigger and more stupid.

Japan. Well, who wouldn’t have to strain at all. Moreover, I’m sure that the Japanese would not even change plans. And in the same way, they would have captured all the French and Dutch colonies in Indochina and went to conquer Australia.

The British would hardly be able to defend their colonies. Too many forces would have to be confronted with Europe, both in terms of repelling the hypothetical landing operation of the Axis on the islands, and in the fight against the blockade, which would certainly have been organized by ours and the Germans, fortunately, there were enough forces. Underwater blockade, of course.

So the whole question is how the United States would behave. And in our case, I’m sure they would continue to be neutral or at best help the British. Lend-lease and all that. If the Japanese had plowed the plague like Pearl Harbor, yes, perhaps the Americans would go to war for their bases and colonies. But let's say so, without fanaticism.

To fight at sea with Japan was quite possible. And, I think, it would end in a draw, because the Japanese would receive a powerful feed from the Allies. More precisely, from an ally. And in this case, it is unlikely that the Americans could quickly unscrew the head of the Japanese. If at all, they could, since dying for an idea in America is somehow not accepted. Or for others to die.

7. The logical ending


As a result, by 1943, the following picture could be quite normal: ALL Eurasia and part of Africa would belong to the countries of the Axis Berlin - Moscow - Tokyo.

The British would sooner or later capitulate anyway, because hunger is not an aunt, and it is not so easy to establish supplies in the conditions of a severe blockade. And she would be. And not only marine. It is unlikely that the entire fleet of the metropolis would venture far away from the home harbors of Scapa Flow, bristling with anti-aircraft gun trunks, knowing that the ships would be happy to accept not only the Luftwaffe paired units, but also the deployed air forces of the Red Army. And here everything is simple: no matter how luxurious Spitfires are, forgive me if there are 6-7 Messerschmitts, Yakovlevs and shopkeepers per British fighter, what will happen? That's right, beating.


And the United States ... And what about the United States? And they would sit overseas, then the gentlemen of the Rothschilds and others would send parliamentarians, and that’s all. A tender fierce friendship would begin. Loans for development, conquest and arrangement of new lands and so on.

The world would still remain multipolar, not a fact. That everything would be as sad as it might seem at first glance.

Yes, the Japanese in their territories would arrange this ... Yes, in fact, they did. But you know, what's the difference, who will arrange the genocide: Japanese, French or American? The wars in Indochina after the Second World War, performed by the French, showed this very clearly.

Was there a difference, say, to a Vietnamese, from the fact that a Japanese bullet hit him. And not French?

I think no difference.

The Germans would arrange a united Europe. Like today, but with the difference that in their Europe the first person would be a German, not an Arab, as in our time. Given Goering’s worldview versus Hitler’s, it’s unlikely that crematorium pipes would smoke across Europe.

On the contrary, most likely, it would not be up to them.

And our country would calmly begin to develop new territories, since there was also something to master there. Of course, building socialism on such an area as the Iranian SSR, Iraqi SSR, the Syrian Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic, the Xinjiang and Tibet Autonomous Republics is a complex and slow task, but they would most likely have been mastered.


The question would remain only in concessionary use of the rest of Africa. And the possible development of South America, however, is more a question for the Germans, who had very good contacts there.

Yes, it's time to say that история doesn't have there ...

No, the conclusion will be somewhat different.

All the fun would start later. Not even when you would have to divide the conquered and the gained and redraw the world map. And then, when such a magnificent triumvirate would fall apart, it does not matter for what reason. What would have broken up is beyond doubt, the components are too different. Too different goals and ways to achieve them.

And one more thing: as the whole history of the XNUMXth and XNUMXst centuries has shown, we never knew how to choose allies and friends for ourselves.
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  1. Pessimist22
    Pessimist22 10 June 2020 05: 27
    13
    Clearly, there is a version of how Kutuzov and Napoleon unite and go south, which is also interesting.
    1. Malyuta
      Malyuta 10 June 2020 05: 33
      +6
      Quote: Pessimist22
      Clearly, there is a version of how Kutuzov and Napoleon unite and go south, which is also interesting.

      This is also interesting, but to be honest, haven't we all fantasized on the topic, but what would happen if there hadn't been a war.
      1. LeonidL
        LeonidL 10 June 2020 06: 14
        14
        They fantasized, but didn’t rave!
        1. Malyuta
          Malyuta 10 June 2020 06: 19
          0
          Quote: LeonidL
          They fantasized, but didn’t rave!

          I want to note that the proletarian revolution in Germany was very real and in this case, the union of the USSR and Germany would be the most powerful in the world. hi
          1. SOVIET UNION 2
            SOVIET UNION 2 10 June 2020 07: 28
            0
            Theoretically, the proletarians of all countries should have risen to fight the bourgeois! In reality, the Finns and Germans slaughtered the carriers of red ideas. In other countries, the proletarians also flew by. The financial international has won! The USSR itself was also not very strong (we would survive). Therefore, the Nazis came to power. After the war, the power of the proletarians was established in Eastern Europe. But with the advent of MSH, everything was flushed down the toilet (as if surrendered by its traitors). Is a proletarian revolution in the EU possible today? Military bases as strongholds of the police will not allow this to be done. Although it would seem, how does the current situation differ from that? Then there were antagonists, today everything is in one boat of capital. There are contradictions, it seems! But these are contradictions of economic entities! Minor differences of companions! But here it turns out that there is still an invisible hand of the market that punishes financially and tangibly! And this hand indicates who, where and in what position should be located. Although everyone is in the same boat of capital! Today, the union of Germany and Russia is doubtful. Russia can be admitted to NATO only in parts (Ukraine, Georgia, and so on).
          2. 5-9
            5-9 10 June 2020 10: 09
            -8
            Then Stalin would have buried Trotsky and there would have been no USSR and Germany - one big socialist concentration camp
          3. LeonidL
            LeonidL 10 June 2020 22: 15
            0
            It was, it means that it was and swam, but did not become a reality. It did not work out and there is nothing to discuss here.
        2. Basil50
          Basil50 10 June 2020 06: 29
          +6
          The author of the * Molotov Ripppentropppp * pact * crawled on the other hand, rejecting the facts.
          Before finally deciding on a war with the SOVIET UNION, a personal friend and * Nazi No. 2 * Ges flew to England. That is what this same messenger agreed to so far in great secret, the British and Hes himself were hanged, if only nothing would come out.
          IT IS A FACT.
          A tempting perspective was written for the Germans in the form of huge latifundia and submissive slaves. Do you think that they did not read and understand this in the SOVIET UNION?
          But the most tempting for the Germans and those who served them was the fact that they were allowed to be outright CATTLE who have no responsibility for atrocities and bestiality.
          1. Dr. Frankenstucker
            Dr. Frankenstucker 10 June 2020 22: 36
            +1
            MOLOTOVA rippentropppppa


            Why are these stupid capsules and dismissive distortion of the name of the head of the German Foreign Ministry? You do not realize that all your subsequent intellects will be perceived accordingly?
        3. antivirus
          antivirus 10 June 2020 08: 54
          +3
          chickens in the fall consider - and the original is a great author, without taking into account everyday moments and psychology.
          But would Macedon and Xerxes conquer India and China? and would land in the Americas on the west coast after the capture of Japan ????????? the most tolerant sign to the article is the question mark
    2. SOVIET UNION 2
      SOVIET UNION 2 10 June 2020 07: 04
      +3
      Roman put forward his version (has the right)! But when all the decisions of those years were made, decision-makers had as much information as possible about the current moment than Roman. And decisions were made based on the information currently available. hi
    3. 5-9
      5-9 10 June 2020 10: 03
      +3
      In fact, Napoleon came up against this for us ... in the sense of including RI in the continental blockade and making it his youngest ally .... one could bargain for a free fight for the Turk. Actually, we (almost) and the Austrians and Prussians were either for Buonaparte, or against ....
    4. Civil
      Civil 10 June 2020 10: 23
      -6
      ALL Eurasia and part of Africa would belong to the countries of the Axis Berlin - Moscow - Tokyo.

      To build a poor empire without rights and concentration camps? DPRK on the floor of the planet.
  2. cavl
    cavl 10 June 2020 05: 40
    +4
    In May 1941, Hitler decided too late to support the pro-Iraqi government and was unable to send ground troops due to the intransigence of the Turkish government. As a result, the Germans did not have ground forces to support Iran. The network comes across reports that in May Hitler put everything on Barborossa and refused to conquer the Middle East
  3. carstorm 11
    carstorm 11 10 June 2020 05: 46
    -1
    Well. and then an even more terrible war would have begun since sooner or later the interests would have diverged. the world cannot exist without various oppositions. be it ideology or skin color. so fantastic stories are best left to those who do it well
  4. Comrade
    Comrade 10 June 2020 05: 52
    +9
    Roman, how do you choose photographs for your articles so that you have a blunder behind a blunder?
    This time in the article in the last photo we see a rally in the ZIL workshop, the date of filming is 1976 year.
    A poster with L. I. Brezhnev is visible in the upper left corner, and another one is the same in the back of the workshop.
    1. antivirus
      antivirus 10 June 2020 08: 58
      -1
      this is a rally in support of the grandson of Hitler, the ruler of Greater Iraq. (the USSR was friends with Hussein) and his claims to the Saudis. or immediately to Madagascar?
    2. BAI
      BAI 10 June 2020 12: 50
      +5
      Maybe the author forgot what Brezhnev looks like, it happens. But the photograph on which the poster hangs - 1976, does not need comments. Well, good faith misconception, but here - no words.
  5. Free wind
    Free wind 10 June 2020 05: 55
    +3
    What was that?
    1. LeonidL
      LeonidL 10 June 2020 06: 17
      +2
      You know, before it was accepted "The journalist changes profession", well, it's like that ... change of profession once again to the author of fantasy. Not very successful, not of high quality, but what has grown has grown.
  6. Deniska999
    Deniska999 10 June 2020 06: 03
    +2
    In any case, condemning the German-Soviet agreement is foolish and pointless. And according to the article - it seems to me that we would quickly argue with Hitler, knowing his character.
    1. Greenwood
      Greenwood 11 June 2020 08: 36
      +1
      Quote: Deniska999
      it seems to me that we would quickly quarrel with Hitler, knowing his character
      You are clearly and clearly told in the article that, according to the legend, Hitler was eliminated and all agreements are being made with Goering, a more "adequate" Nazi.
  7. anjey
    anjey 10 June 2020 06: 18
    +7
    Could it be that the Soviet Union and Germany did not agree in a war, but vice versa? Under certain conditions, yes.
    It could not initially, these were two ideologically irreconcilable systems, communism and the reactionary products of capitalism - Nazism and Fascism. The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was a necessary measure, the USSR understood that despite their efforts, Western countries want to leave it alone with Nazi Germany and that would delay the time of the decisive battle and not get involved in a war on two fronts (in 1939 there were battles with Japan), which was strategically not profitable for the USSR, therefore such, albeit not reliable, "Non-Aggression Pact" was necessary and necessary. So Stalin and the entire government of the USSR acted correctly, judiciously and balanced, at that time, smelling of gunpowder and betrayal.
    1. Malyuta
      Malyuta 10 June 2020 06: 24
      0
      Quote: anjey
      It could not initially, these were two ideologically irreconcilable systems, communism and the reactionary offspring of capitalism - Nazism and fascism.

      Nobody argues with this, it seemed to me that the author's article is a fantasy on the topic "how it could be". hi
      1. anjey
        anjey 10 June 2020 06: 34
        +6
        It’s such alternative fantasies that gouge into the minds of the nearby western electorate to put Hitler and Stalin symbolically close, but this is wrong and historically wrong, this is the West’s desire to evade responsibility for unleashing the WWII.
    2. Olgovich
      Olgovich 10 June 2020 07: 14
      -3
      Quote: anjey
      The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was a necessary measure, the USSR understood that in spite of its efforts, Western countries wanted to leave it alone with Nazi Germany and that would delay the time of the decisive battle

      He was necessary for us - in conditions obvious inevitable occupation of Poland by Hitler, the USSR pushed its borders 200 km towards the Germans. It is a success.

      He did not push the time of the battle for a second: in 1939, Hitler was not going to fight the USSR and was not ready for this.

      He attacked exactly when he fully prepared (as he believed) on June 22, 1941, and not a day earlier.
      1. anjey
        anjey 10 June 2020 07: 44
        +9
        You are partially wrong if England, France and Poland agreed on an agreement with the USSR at the August talks in 1939, then if it weren’t for war, then the occupation of Poland could most likely have been avoided and defeated by joint efforts on the territory of Poland, but Western politicians faced completely different plans and tasks — the destruction of Bolshevism and the USSR, therefore the wheel of History has rolled in this way and not otherwise.
        1. Avior
          Avior 10 June 2020 08: 00
          +4
          Churchill writes about this from his memoirs.
          He believes that the negotiations failed, as the parties did not trust each other.
          Stalin believed that England would not declare war on Germany if it invaded Poland, and the British believed that Stalin would simply use the entry of Soviet troops into Poland to bring an obedient government to power.
          1. anjey
            anjey 10 June 2020 08: 10
            +3
            That is, in many respects the ideological and political contradictions of the states were to blame, which led to fatal consequences.
        2. Olgovich
          Olgovich 10 June 2020 08: 23
          +3
          Quote: anjey
          You are partially wrong if England, France and Poland at an August talks in 1939 came to an agreement with the USSR, then if not war, then the occupation of Poland could most likely have been avoided

          Poland was not in the negotiations.

          And we are discussing the situation with already failed negotiations.

          The fate of Poland was, therefore, a foregone conclusion and the USSR acted correctly, especially since Poland had earlier refused assistance from the USSR and he owed nothing to it.
          1. anjey
            anjey 10 June 2020 08: 41
            +2
            I agree, everything is so, it was just that Poland had a chance to avoid occupation and become a full-fledged victorious Nazi country, but since then it was dependent on the double and double-faced policies of England, which ultimately betrayed it and gave it to Hitler to tear to pieces and failed negotiations with the USSR on collective security as well as pushed the latter to a forced pact with Germany.
      2. anjey
        anjey 10 June 2020 08: 06
        +4
        Hitler kept his hand on the political pulse of Europe and acted adventurously, risky but prudently, playing on contradictions, he well understood his role as the reactionary vanguard of the capitalists in the struggle against the Soviets, and this was the work of his life, thanks to these ideas he managed to get to the political upper hand.
      3. Kronos
        Kronos 10 June 2020 10: 25
        0
        The conclusion of the treaty convinced the Japanese not to attack the USSR, so it helped in the war
    3. really
      really 10 June 2020 23: 30
      0
      And the partition of Poland and the Baltic states, plus Moldova is where?
  8. Edward Vashchenko
    Edward Vashchenko 10 June 2020 06: 26
    +7
    And one more thing: as the whole history of the XNUMXth and XNUMXst centuries has shown, we never knew how to choose allies and friends for ourselves.

    We are so stupid, everyone knew how, but we didn’t. What to do with us?
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 10 June 2020 06: 53
      -1
      Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
      Here we are stupid, everyone knew how, but we didn’t

      I, for one, don’t think so.
      1. Edward Vashchenko
        Edward Vashchenko 11 June 2020 17: 03
        +1
        And I,
        it's sarcasm hi
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 12 June 2020 05: 36
          +1
          Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
          And I,
          it's sarcasm

          It was clear hi
  9. Avior
    Avior 10 June 2020 06: 31
    +3
    Roman's article is interesting in that it is obviously unaware that negotiations on the topic of his article between Germany and the USSR were conducted, he almost completely determined their content.
    Negotiations on the accession of the USSR to the Triple Alliance were conducted in the autumn of 1940.
    Indeed, it was about the right of the USSR to the south and the division of spheres of dominance on a global scale.
    . On November 12, 1940, Adolf Hitler invited Vyacheslav Molotov, who was visiting Berlin, to join the USSR to the Axis countries as a full fourth member [2].

    The preliminary text of the Covenant of the Four Powers was composed by Ribbentrop, it included in particular
    . .... Germany, Italy, the USSR and Japan undertake to respect areas of mutual interest. Insofar as the spheres of these interests clash, they will agree in a friendly spirit on all issues arising from this fact.
    The parties will not support groups directed against one of them. They undertake to support each other economically and will seek to expand their economic agreements.
    Secret Protocols Edit
    On the delimitation of the main spheres of interests of the four states with the deviation of the Soviet sphere towards the Indian Ocean.
    On the Straits - in the spirit of non-military, diplomatic agreements between Turkey, the USSR, Italy and Germany.

    In general, the USSR agreed with the Package, but put forward some additional conditions
    . If German troops are immediately withdrawn from Finland, representing the sphere of influence of the USSR according to the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact;
    If the security of the USSR in the straits is ensured by concluding a pact of mutual assistance between the USSR and Bulgaria and the organization of a military and naval base of the USSR in the Bosphorus and Dardanelles "on the basis of a long-term lease";
    If the region south of Batumi and Baku in the general direction to the Persian Gulf is recognized as the vector of the sphere of interests of the USSR;
    If Japan renounces its concession rights for coal and oil in Northern Sakhalin “on conditions of fair compensation”.

    The USSR also proposed to additionally conclude 5 protocols that related the direction of the Persian Gulf to the sphere of interests of the USSR, in fact classified Bulgaria, secured rights in Finland and gave the USSR the right to a military base in the Bosphorus.

    The Germans and Italians were not happy with the strengthening of the USSR in the south, so the negotiations stopped, and a month later Hitler signed the Barbaross plan.

    True, in one of the articles one can find the opinion that it was misinformation on the part of the Germans, but until the end of November, during 1939–40, the Germans conducted vigorous efforts in this respect, so this doesn’t look like misinformation, the German disinformation started later, by the end of December 1940.
    1. Operator
      Operator 10 June 2020 10: 00
      -4
      Translated into Russian, after the USSR had designated its sphere of interests (Hitler’s test for lice), the German proposal for the Quadripartite Pact suddenly died.

      Well, and then what was the interest of the USSR in taking responsibility for the military adventures of the Germans and Japanese in Europe and Asia - to become cannon fodder?

      By the way, the incident with the Quadrilateral Pact, which had died before it was born, perfectly illustrates the sphero-conicity of the article in which the author seeks to impose the idea that Germany simply wrote boiling water from her desire to fraternize with the USSR in 1941.
  10. Undecim
    Undecim 10 June 2020 06: 37
    +7
    7 light cruisers "project 26"
    What is the alternative figure? Project 26 and 26 bis cruisers were built six, moreover, "Kalinin" entered the fleet in 1942, and "Kaganovich" in 1947.
  11. Olgovich
    Olgovich 10 June 2020 06: 47
    -2
    Could it be that the Soviet Union and Germany did not agree in a war, but vice versa? Under certain conditions, yes.

    No.

    when aggressors of world-wide wars bypassed Russia?

    Never. We look at the Swedes, French, Poles, Germans.

    And this is natural: Russia played too great (by virtue of its territory, RESOURCES, population, influence) in Europe to be able to neglect its resources, force, or leave it in the "rear".

    After all, what are all the wars for?

    In this regard, Russia is always both a tidbit and a bone in the throat of every hungry foreign wealth and world domination.

    One can argue about the details for a long time, because there is a lot of "would".

    PS the alternative story genre itself is very interesting (it gives the ability to play the mind and flight of fantasy).
    therefore I read with interest, article plus
    1. 5-9
      5-9 10 June 2020 10: 14
      +2
      What is considered global?
      The 30-year-old quite attracted half the world (civilized). The War of the Spanish Succession, too. What we call the Seven Years and in America, consider it continued and we fought in it on foreign territory. Kataks with Indians millions of each other, too, without us managed to cut ..
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 10 June 2020 14: 24
        -2
        Quote: 5-9
        What is considered global?

        world wars
        1. 5-9
          5-9 10 June 2020 14: 41
          +2
          Did God bring down the list of world wars on the tablets?
          Or is it about WWI and WWII ???
          ... so the United States, Britain and the colonies, France, Germany, Italy, Belgium, the Netherlands, Austria and Hungary, and also both participated in both ... and in WWII no one really attacked us .... ourselves ... yourself ...
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 10 June 2020 15: 00
            -2
            Quote: 5-9
            Did God bring down the list of world wars on the tablets?

            Aha! yes
            Quote: 5-9
            and in WWI nobody seemed to be particularly attacking us ... ourselves ... ourselves ...

            Now it’s clear: with the declaration of war by Germany, they attacked us .... WE, and without declaring war at 41, attacked us. yes
  12. KVU-NSVD
    KVU-NSVD 10 June 2020 07: 05
    +3
    Kill Hitler, put a "sane" Goering, nothing would have changed strategically, Germany was allowed to revive not for an alliance with the USSR, but for a war with it, an alliance with Japan, even indirectly, generally absurd, there were initially views of the northwestern regions of the Pacific Ocean diametrically opposite. Yes, even Germany and the USSR united in the fight against the rest of world imperialism on the basis of common grievances (according to the author) - after the solution of the tasks assigned to such a "union", such a quarrel would begin that a real WWII would seem like a local conflict
    1. antivirus
      antivirus 10 June 2020 09: 07
      -1
      everything was decided by the Swiss gnomes (and the Rockefellers?) - their opinion is not taken into account in the article.
      and WWII ended as the troops of the USSR and the West of the Allies reached the borders of Switzerland. the top of the Germans kept the loot in the "Zurich"
    2. Operator
      Operator 10 June 2020 10: 15
      +5
      The author does not understand what he is quoting - the very same Churchill chewed at once for all the alternative people at once: the main goal of Germany in both the First and Second World Wars is to prevent the RI / USSR from building up its potential beyond the potential of Germany (estimated time in the first case - 1916, in the second - 1942).

      Therefore, the only method of doing business with the Republic of Ingushetia / the USSR is a preventive attack before the estimated time, and not the conclusion of equal political alliances with the prospect of accelerated development of its ally.

      In other words, why should Germany, together with the USSR, divide the British Empire if, as a result, the Germans get the British Empire No. 2, but with great potential?
  13. mikh-korsakov
    mikh-korsakov 10 June 2020 07: 10
    +1
    In the stream of interpretation of Soviet policy before the war, I read and heard a lot of things. But I haven’t met this yet, they have also attracted Japan. In 1991, many things were debunked. But I remember that it was written by Yu. Semyonov that the Germans, I don’t remember exactly who, during Molotov’s visit to Berlin before the war, proposed the option that the USSR would concentrate in its interests in a southerly direction in exchange for German freedom of action in Europe. Molotov just rejected this proposal, saying that the USSR was not interested in expanding the sphere of influence in the south.
  14. Undecim
    Undecim 10 June 2020 07: 24
    13
    And if the Russian princes in 1223 could agree among themselves and with Genghis Khan?
    Or in 1242, Alexander Nevsky with the Livonian Order? And if in 1558 Ivan the Terrible, instead of attacking Livonia, would agree with the Livonians and with the Lithuanians, Swedes and Danes? And if in 1700 Peter I and Charles XII agreed? And if Alexander I instead of throwing in foreign policy in 1803 agreed with Napoleon, would you understand our Buonaparte?
    And what prevented Nicholas II from making efforts and negotiating with William II in 1900? Moreover, the relatives! And unlike in 1941, neither Japan nor the USA at that time were players on the world stage. Cut the globe as you want.
    So that the author can "boggle" a decent cycle of articles in the cycle "Could be so".
    1. antivirus
      antivirus 10 June 2020 09: 08
      +4
      you did not mention the role of the Aztecs and Mayans in world history
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 10 June 2020 09: 20
        +6
        Yes, I missed it. And if in Russia they knew how to build ships in the XNUMXth century, and Ivan III Vasilievich sent the deputies of the boyars to the ruler of Tenochtitlan Ashayakatl, the son of Tesozmok and the daughter of Montezuma ... Here such an intrigue could be twisted, which is breathtaking.
        1. antivirus
          antivirus 10 June 2020 12: 01
          +1
          for some reason, it seems to me that there were highly developed civilizations in Antarctica. because Hitler was looking for them there. In the time of Ivan 3, it was necessary to send a fleet to the southern seas - everything could have been different than now and Alaska would not have been needed.
          1. Undecim
            Undecim 10 June 2020 12: 11
            +5
            In the time of Ivan 3, it was necessary to send a fleet to the southern seas
            Ivan III is the first who in the last 220 years did not go to the Horde to ask for a shortcut. What fleets are there.
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 10 June 2020 11: 20
      +2
      Quote: Undecim
      And what prevented Nicholas II from making efforts and negotiating with William II in 1900? Moreover, the relatives! And unlike in 1941, neither Japan nor the USA at that time were players on the world stage. Cut the globe as you want.

      Late. It is necessary until 1877 to negotiate and take the Straits. smile
      1. antivirus
        antivirus 10 June 2020 12: 33
        +2
        until 1877 there was a failure in the Crimean War - primarily the diplomatic isolation of RI in Europe.
        it was necessary to take the PROLIVES on the wave of victories over Napoleon - and then how would the Angles see? - The "Crimean war" would have begun 30 years earlier.
  15. parusnik
    parusnik 10 June 2020 07: 38
    0
    All the alternatives, it’s the same as spitting against the wind ... Even if so ... Anyway, Bolivar couldn’t bear the three .... History shows that of all the triumvirates that were, there was always one .. . And then soaked ....
  16. A. Privalov
    A. Privalov 10 June 2020 08: 37
    +9
    After reading such alternative generalizations, three anecdotal parables come to mind - three such pillars on which all this disgrace holds.
    1. If grandmother had balls, then she would be a grandfather.
    2. The thief was asked where it is best to hide stolen goods so that they would not be found during the search?
    “In the attic,” the thief answered. They will come and not find. I don’t have an attic!
    3. In a psychiatric hospital they learned that tomorrow they will cut. How to avoid? We decided to stuff nails into the heads. To make the scissors break. hi
  17. Pvi1206
    Pvi1206 10 June 2020 08: 53
    -1
    what is fuss about? ... everything is very simple ...
    Concluding this agreement, Russia proceeded from its interests .... the West accuses it of this ... and demands that Russia always put their interests first ...
  18. Alexander Greene
    Alexander Greene 10 June 2020 09: 13
    +3
    The USSR could unite with Germany only in one case — in the event of the victory of the socialist revolution there.
    The rest of the author's "fantasies". you can't even call it fantasies ...
  19. Diviz
    Diviz 10 June 2020 09: 53
    0
    Is there a version that Alexander 2 blew up a nuclear bomb near Moscow?
    1. Tuzik
      Tuzik 10 June 2020 17: 50
      0
      Also saw this video laughing There is no limit to dreamers!
  20. 5-9
    5-9 10 June 2020 10: 01
    +1
    The word "lebensraum" was not invented by the hysterical Aloizych, but much so before him. From the end of the 19th century, the Germans perceived the rotten Russian Empire as prey, an object of colonization (and others in general, too). In WWI, Kaiser's Germany gave RI one left ... then the revolution, devastation ... that is. in the eyes of foreigners, Russia / USSR have become even weaker than RI. Plus the idiotic racial theory of the possessed Aloizych .... but the Wehrmacht officers cheerfully went to fight not against the Jewish communists-subhumans, but for the land and slaves. In Barbarossa's plan, the Red Army was estimated at 50 "good" divisions, consider it equal to the German division.

    The neglect, in principle, did not allow either the UPR of the Reich, or even the public (this also applies to other countries), to regard the USSR as an equal with whom Eurasia can be shared.
    Who knew in 1939-41 how WWII would end ...... and the author, taking into account the afterglow of the Victory and the superpower of 45-91, the USSR estimates. Even our VPR is all about the red military, so the evacuation plans were developed before the war ...
  21. Blacksmith 55
    Blacksmith 55 10 June 2020 10: 04
    +4
    If only, yes, if mushrooms grew in your mouth,
    There would be no mouth, but a whole garden.
    Science fiction writers however.
  22. Sergey S.
    Sergey S. 10 June 2020 10: 15
    +2
    And one more thing: as the whole history of the XNUMXth and XNUMXst centuries has shown, we never knew how to choose allies and friends for ourselves.

    That is, according to the author, you need to choose the strong, go to bed and ... have fun?
    It was unpleasant to read.
    Everyone was waiting for something important, and did not believe in a delusional ending.
  23. Octopus
    Octopus 10 June 2020 10: 40
    +4
    Mr. Skomorokhov decided to go into an alternative story. It is unclear why, since there are specialized resources for alternative history, where all this has traveled far and wide.

    Perhaps the AI ​​veterans who sometimes appear here will find it necessary to unsubscribe. But by the standards of experienced it is about nothing.

    1. The Third Reich until the 39th year was completely not going to seriously invest somewhere. He solved relatively local problems on the rights of German-speaking and native harbors. Even after Poland, he (both Hitler and the military) tried to stop.
    2. In the fall of 40, the option with the southern direction of expansion of the USSR was seriously considered by the mustachioed allies. Unfortunately for the USSR, most likely during these negotiations Hitler realized who he was dealing with.
    3. During the Stalin and Hitler period, the USSR and the Reich attacked all but one country with which they had a land border at the time of their appearance (and several countries with which they had no borders) (did not have time to attack Turkey and Switzerland, respectively, although the approach to the shell in both cases was available). Talking about a stable alliance with him is simply ridiculous.
    4. Germany really had a chance to influence the redivision of the world on the anti-colonial agenda. In this, the United States would become its ally. Unfortunately for everyone, Hitler was focused not on the global redistribution of the world, but on small-town issues. This led Europe to understand why.

    And the Great Germany project was realized later, when the German mark became the cornerstone of the single European currency.
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 10 June 2020 13: 54
      -4
      Quote: Octopus
      III Reich until the 39th year was not going to seriously to invest somewhere.


      And TWO captured large European countries are just jokers lol
      Quote: Octopus
      solved relatively local problems on the rights of German-speaking

      Poor Germans were terribly oppressed in Austria, Yes lol
      Quote: Octopus
      and native harbors.

      Memel was transferred under an agreement with Lithuania.
      Even after Poland, he (both Hitler and the military) tried to stop.
      lol Yeah, "tried" to stop ... his hands, which raked in Belgium, Holland, Denmark, etc.
      Quote: Octopus
      During the Stalin and Hitler period, the USSR and the Reich attacked all but one country with which they had a land border at the time of their appearance (and several countries with which they had no borders)

      A blatant lie.
      Quote: Octopus
      Germany really had a chance to influence the redivision of the world on the anti-colonial agenda. In this, the United States would become its ally. Unfortunately for everyone, Hitler was focused not on the global redistribution of the world, but on small-town issues.

      The World War, in which 62 out of 74 countries participated, leading to a global redivision of the world, solved .... small-town issues ?!
      I have never heard such a thing before.

      A picky alternative ....
      1. Octopus
        Octopus 10 June 2020 14: 17
        +1
        Quote: Olgovich
        TWO captured large European countries

        Without war.
        Quote: Olgovich
        Poor Germans were terribly oppressed in Austria,

        The right of the people to self-determination. A referendum, stones from the sky, probably remember all this.
        Quote: Olgovich
        Memel was transferred under an agreement with Lithuania.

        Yes, but what's wrong with him?
        Quote: Olgovich
        "tried" to stop

        Oddly enough, yes, see "strange war".
        Quote: Olgovich
        A blatant lie.

        Some kind of strange sketch. Take a card and poke a finger, which of the neighbors mentioned countries did not release, in whole or in part.
        Quote: Olgovich
        The World War, in which 62 out of 74 countries participated, leading to a global redivision of the world, solved .... small-town issues ?!

        Yes. An example of which broth can be brewed due to trifles. Initially, it was only about the Polish corridor. As the previous time, it was originally about one Archduke there.
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 10 June 2020 14: 34
          -5
          Quote: Octopus
          Without war.

          So what?
          ч
          Quote: Octopus
          The right of the people to self-determination. A referendum, stones from the sky, probably remember all this.

          so where is the oppression of the Germans in Austria?
          Quote: Octopus
          Yes, but what's wrong with him?

          It's like that.
          What is wrong with the harbors?
          Quote: Octopus
          Oddly enough, yes, see "strange war".

          see to Belgium, Holland, Denmark, etc., etc.
          Do you stop like that too? belay
          Quote: Octopus
          Some kind of strange sketch. Take a card and poke a finger, which of the neighbors mentioned countries did not release, in whole or in part.

          A sketch of YOU- You gave out a portion of FALSE without the slightest discussion.

          And yes, see. on the map.
          Quote: Octopus
          An example of which broth can be brewed due to trifles.

          There are NO SUCH broths due to trifles. This is not in the face to give a haste

          Only because of big things and according to a preplanned plan does this happen.
          Quote: Octopus
          As the previous time, it was originally about one Archduke there.

          Is that you ... seriously? belay lol
          1. Octopus
            Octopus 10 June 2020 14: 39
            +2
            Quote: Olgovich
            So what?

            What to take aback and arrange a world war are two different things.
            Quote: Olgovich
            so where is the oppression of the Germans in Austria?

            German speakers have the right to unite with anyone they want.
            Quote: Olgovich
            What is wrong with the harbors?

            Everything was very good with the harbors to Danzig. Something did not grow together on it.
            Quote: Olgovich
            see to Belgium, Holland, Denmark, etc., etc.

            From Poland to these countries there was a pause for six months of diplomatic maneuvers.
            Quote: Olgovich
            And yes, see. on the map.

            Well, tell me which countries were ignored by the high contracting parties if you found them there.
            Quote: Olgovich
            Only because of big things and according to a preplanned plan, something like this happens.

            Just when this happens, if you are at least a little interested., All plans go to hell instantly.
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 10 June 2020 15: 14
              -3
              Quote: Octopus
              What to take aback and arrange a world war are two different things.

              The capture of two powerful states (unpunished) of Europe is the stage of the outbreak of world war.
              Without this, she simply would NOT exist.
              Quote: Octopus
              German speakers have the right to unite with anyone they want.

              So in what were the Germans of Austria violated, from whom did Hitler defend them, what did you say?
              Quote: Octopus
              From Poland to these countries there was a pause for six months of diplomatic maneuvers.

              Less than half a year has been spent on restoration, reserves, troop regrouping, stockpiles, planning — this is always done: see ANY operation.
              Quote: Octopus
              Well, tell me which countries were ignored by the high contracting parties if you found them there.

              You talked about the ATTACK, and not about the attention, what is the matter with you?

              And didn’t confirm their lie
              Quote: Octopus
              Just when this happens, if you are at least a little interested., All plans go to hell instantly.

              Not at all: strategic goals are meticulously fulfilled, the details, the details, are ....
              1. Octopus
                Octopus 10 June 2020 15: 50
                +3
                Quote: Olgovich
                The capture of two powerful states (unpunished) of Europe is the stage of the outbreak of world war.
                The capture of two European states is the capture of two European states. No more and no less. Moreover, such a seizure took shape more or less casually as an expression of will.
                Quote: Olgovich
                So in what the Germans of Austria were infringed, from whom Hitler defended them,

                The Austrians were prejudiced by the historical division of the German people. Hitler protected them from sadness and despondency.
                Quote: Olgovich
                Less than six months spent on restoration, reserves, troop regrouping, stockpiles, planning

                Afterglow.
                Quote: Olgovich
                You talked about the ATTACK

                Again.
                I reported that the USSR attacked every single country with which it had a land border as of 1922 (and several countries with which it had no border). With the exception of Turkey, to which he made claims in southern Armenia and a number of other locations, but which the Americans covered up.

                In order to refute my statement, it is enough to find one country that he did not attack, and which at the same time did not voluntarily and with songs enter the union of fraternal peoples on the rights of a sister or at least a cousin.

                Or was your question about the Reich? There is one Switzerland relative to the borders of the 33rd year, if I do not confuse anything.
                Quote: Olgovich
                Not at all: strategic goals are meticulously fulfilled, the details, the details, are ....

                None of the countries of the 39th year had neither Potsdam nor San Francisco for their purposes.
                1. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 10 June 2020 20: 39
                  -4
                  Quote: Octopus
                  The capture of two states of Europe is the capture of two states of Europe

                  "Digs deep!" (FROM) lol
                  Quote: Octopus
                  . Moreover, such a capture took shape more or less casually as declaration of will

                  khgm ...- Czechoslovakia ?! belay

                  Sadness attacked Austria: again "deep ..." But that's all.

                  Why it write? request
                  Quote: Octopus
                  Afterglow.

                  Just knowing, knowing how long such operations take
                  Quote: Octopus
                  I reported that the USSR attacked every single country with which it had a land border as of 1922 (and several countries with which it had no border). With the exception of Turkey, to which he made claims in southern Armenia and a number of other locations, but which the Americans covered up.

                  In order to refute my statement, it is enough to find one country that he did not attack

                  Romania, for example, such things could be known .. China, Manzhou-go, Japan, Mongolia, the Baltic states, Poland, etc.
                  Quote: Octopus
                  None of the countries of the 39th year had neither Potsdam nor San Francisco for their purposes.

                  Compiegne was - and he was ACHIEVED, as were Brussels, Copenhagen, etc.
                  1. Liam
                    Liam 10 June 2020 20: 51
                    +1
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    Romania, for example, such things could be known .. China, Manzhou-go, Japan, Mongolia, the Baltic states, Poland, etc.

                    Write better about the emperor
                    1. Olgovich
                      Olgovich 10 June 2020 21: 52
                      -5
                      Quote: Liam
                      Write better about the emperor


                      With tips, tips!

                      Got it, no? No.
                      1. Liam
                        Liam 10 June 2020 23: 15
                        0
                        I am purely out of Christian compassion .. with your near-zero level of knowledge versus the Octopus’s colleague in the WWII topic, you have less chance than a heating pad ... shooting at the Red Cross
                      2. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 11 June 2020 07: 03
                        0
                        Quote: Liam
                        I am purely out of Christian compassion ..


                        That advice, then compassion, but on the topic ... NOT half a word. belay fool Complete zero...

                        Who needs this garbage? why are the comments still not got it?
                        Quote: Liam
                        you have less chance than a heating pad ... shooting at the Red Cross

                        belay fool
                        Bullshit ...
                      3. Liam
                        Liam 11 June 2020 19: 38
                        -1
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        and on the topic ...

                        I don’t beat the children of the elderly and the disabled .... I just wanted to save from execution in a fit of Samaritanism .. I still do not care what the funds of the Moldovan pension fund are spent on.
                      4. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 12 June 2020 07: 00
                        0
                        Quote: Liam
                        Я not I hit the children of the elderly and the disabled .... in a fit Samaritanism.

                        Poor fellows always explain impotence by cheerful ones: "I didn't want to!" lol

                        and magnanimous: "I was afraid that I was to death of her! It became a pity ...." laughing
                        Quote: Liam
                        .I still do not care what the funds of the Moldovan pension fund are spent on.
                        How many worries does the Moldovan migrant workers-moi in Italy have: both money and funds .....

                        And how do you manage? request hi
            2. Octopus
              Octopus 10 June 2020 22: 28
              0
              Quote: Olgovich
              khgm ...- Czechoslovakia ?!

              What is Czechoslovakia?
              The Sudetenland - the reunion of the German people, Bohemia and Moravia - the ultimatum of Gahu.
              Quote: Olgovich
              Why write this?

              Then, after polite people were brought into Austria, a referendum was held there, during which the fraternal Austrian people asked to go to their native harbor.
              Quote: Olgovich
              Just knowledge, knowledge of that

              Preparations for the operation did not stop the Reich from stopping. This is not Nikolaev Russia.
              See Hitler's peace proposals of October 6, 1939, of July 19, 1940.
              Quote: Olgovich
              Romania, for example, such things could be known .. China, Manzhou-go, Japan, Mongolia, the Baltic states, Poland, etc.

              Are these jokes like that?
              Quote: Olgovich
              Compiegne was - and he was ACHIEVED

              The war, like a bicycle, sat down - and went. Stop - you fall.
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 11 June 2020 07: 52
                -1
                Quote: Octopus
                Bohemia and Moravia - Gahu ultimatum.

                The ultimatum of the Germans is ... the will of the Czechs, stated by you above? What the nonsense Are you carrying
                Quote: Octopus
                Then, that after entering Austria polite people, a referendum was held there, during which the fraternal Austrian people asked to home harbor.


                1. Give literally contemporaries (do you quote them?).
                Or what nonsense are you writing?

                2, ONCE AGAIN: this nonsense:
                Quote: Octopus
                Hitler protected them from sadness and despondency.
                What for?

                there is nothing more to confirm another landmass about the infringement of the rights of the Germans in .... Austria?
                So you have not become more convincing .... Absurd, unless ...
                Quote: Octopus
                Preparations for the operation did not stop the Reich from stopping.

                Open the explanatory dictionary of the Russian language to understand that "preparing" an operation and "stopping" it are mutually exclusive concepts.
                Quote: Octopus
                This is not Nikolaev Russia.

                And not Cheberlena England. And not Spain Franco. What kind of jumping?
                Quote: Octopus
                See Hitler's peace proposals of October 6, 1939, of July 19, 1940.

                See Plan "Gelb" from SEPTEMBER 1939, plan for the offensive to the West.

                See 27 September 1939 years, Hitler: "The purpose of the war is to bring England to its knees, defeat France."

                See October 9 1939 Commander of the armed forces Brauchitsch, Goering and Raeder - "Message on the conduct of the war on the Western Front." P
                I say:

                a) on the northern flank of the Western Front, prepare an offensive through the territories of Luxembourg, Belgium and Holland. It is necessary to step as large as possible and as quickly as possible;
                b) the purpose of this operation is to destroy, if possible, large associations of the French army and allies on its side, and at the same time capture as much of the territory of Holland, Belgium and Western France as possible .... "

                What, in, "world"?
                Quote: Octopus
                Are these jokes like that?

                These are such FACTS.
                You didn’t bring, for once again, ANYTHING, other than an empty LIE.
                Quote: Octopus
                The war, like a bicycle, sat down - and went. Stop - fallь

                Then stop the war started must notthen ....
                Octopus - after Poland he (both Hitler and the military) tried to stop

                You yourself-Although sometimes remember. lol
                1. Octopus
                  Octopus 11 June 2020 08: 39
                  +2
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  The ultimatum of the Germans is ... the will of the Czechs, stated by you above?

                  Comrade Gakha, on behalf of the Czech people, asked for Reich. Like not so long ago, Comrade Kokoity, the leader of the South Ossetian people (by the way, where is he?), Asked to Russia, has the right. At least moral.
                  Quote: Octopus
                  the seizure took shape more or less casually as a declaration of will.

                  Quote: Olgovich
                  about infringement of the rights of Germans in .... Austria?

                  What does the violation of German rights have to do with it? The German people wanted to reunite with all their might, comrade. Hitler felt it with all his heart, held a referendum on this at both sides, unlike some, and reunited. What's wrong?
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  "preparing" an operation and "stopping" it are mutually exclusive concepts.

                  I did not write that the Reich stopped training. I wrote that the Reich, after each successful campaign, performed diplomatic maneuvers and put forward peace initiatives. By the way, comrade Molotov warmly supported him in this.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  It’s impossible to stop the war, then ....

                  In Poland, initially there was a goal - Danzig and the Polish corridor. But since the war, the whole of Poland was torn apart. Then Northern Europe was torn apart in the same order. And off we go. It is one thing to stop and record success, another thing to turn back, no one was ready for it.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  These are such FACTS.

                  The facts are as follows.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Romania, for example, such things could be known .. China, Manzhou-go, Japan, Mongolia, the Baltic states, Poland, etc.

                  In the summer of the 40th year of the USSR, under the threat of war, annexed Bessarabia and Sev. Bukovina. The Southern Front was deployed (commander - G.K. Zhukov).
                  In the 44th surfaced that the Soviet representative comrade Vyshinsky gives instructions in Romania to appoint a prime minister. The sovereignty of this country was lost before the execution of Comrade. Ceausescu.

                  In China, the peace-loving Soviet Union first actively lit up in the 27th, the Shanghai uprising. In the 48th great friend of the USSR and personally comrade Stalin comrade Mao managed to tidy up China almost entirely.

                  Manzhou-Guo was occupied by the USSR in August of the 45th year.

                  Similarly, in August of the 45th, the USSR attacked Japan along the land border on Sakhalin. As usual, the USSR did it as vile as possible, on August 12, two days after the announcement of Japan on the adoption of the Potsdam Declaration.

                  Mongolia is a part of China (only the USSR was recognized until at least the 49th year), which was occupied by Russia under the old regime. The RSFSR inherited these positions. In the 30s, the independence of the MPR from the USSR was so obvious that the People’s Commissariat Internal affairs, the reactionary kulak and priest element was eradicated there. The priestly element was introduced by Buddhist monks.

                  The Baltic countries, pursuant to the well-known Soviet-German agreements, were occupied by the USSR from 1940 to 1991 with a short break for the Germans again, whom these agreements temporarily disagreed with. I note that Lithuania initially had no borders with the USSR, but the USSR itself organized these borders by the 40th year.

                  Poland was liberated by the Belarusian (Kovalev) and Ukrainian (Timoshenko) fronts from its government and army in September 1939 in accordance with the mentioned Soviet-German agreements. Simultaneously with the liberation activities Kovaleva and Tymoshenko, on the contrary, Herr von Brauchitsch and his subordinate structures were engaged in occupational activities on the other side of Poland. In the spirit, again, of agreements.

                  Climbed the whole map or someone else you find?
                2. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 11 June 2020 10: 23
                  -1
                  Quote: Octopus
                  Comrade Gaha, on behalf of the Czech people, asked in the Reich.

                  Lying.

                  March 14, 1939 Hitler caused Czechoslovak President Emil Gahu to Berlin and suggested he accept the German protectorate.
                  Who will refuse such an offer? You? lol laughing
                  Quote: Octopus
                  How wrong long ago, comrade Kokoity, the leader of the South Ossetian people (by the way, where is he?), asked to Russia, has the right. At least moral.

                  Exactly what is wrong. No similarity, no connection between events.
                  Again you have ridiculous jumps to the side ....

                  Quote: Octopus
                  What does the violation of German rights have to do with it?
                  Again we poke you in yours:
                  octopus ------ solved relatively local problems by German-speaking rights
                  Quote: Octopus
                  held a referendum on this issue on both sides, unlike some

                  Damned Germany 1990, I agree!
                  Quote: Octopus
                  I did not write, that the Reich was stopping the preparations. I wrote that the Reich, after each successful campaign, performed diplomatic maneuvers and put forward peace initiatives. By the way, comrade Molotov warmly supported him in this.

                  They wrote and how, again, get out, well, poke
                  after Poland he (both Hitler and the military) tried to stop.

                  to which I write to you again:
                  See Plan "Gelb" from SEPTEMBER 1939, plan for the offensive to the West.

                  See September 27, 1939, Hitler: "The purpose of the war is to bring England to its knees, defeat France."

                  See October 9, 1939, Commander of the Armed Forces Brauchitsch, Goering and Raeder - "Message on the conduct of the war on the Western Front." P
                  I say:

                  a) on the northern flank of the Western Front, prepare an offensive through the territories of Luxembourg, Belgium and Holland. It is necessary to step as large as possible and as quickly as possible;
                  b) the purpose of this operation is to destroy, if possible, large unions of the French army and allies on its side, and at the same time to capture as much of the territory of Holland, Belgium and Western France, .... "

                  What, in, "world"?

                  What's not clear?

                  It was prepared in REALITY, in which there was no place Your peace-loving Hitler In which Molotov believed and believe ... you. fool lol Molotov was prosthetically, he did not know the background, but not the modern man.

                  The fact that Hitler is a LOVER and PEACEKEEPER — I hear such a Chuhni for the first time in my life, from you! Bravo, you managed to surprise me, and even a few hundred million, I'm sure.!
                  Quote: Octopus
                  In the summer of the 40th year of the USSR, under the threat of war, annexed Bessarabia and Sev. Bukovina. The Southern Front was deployed (commander - G.K. Zhukov)

                  HOW can you annex Bessarabia, which is NEVER Romanian ... not recognized?
                  Find out, finally, that Romania OCCUPIED part of Russia in 1918 and then, in 1918, vowed to return Bessarabia to the RSFSR, but ANNEXED it ..

                  the aggressor was put in place
                  Quote: Octopus
                  In the 44th surfaced that the Soviet representative comrade Vyshinsky gives instructions in Romania to appoint a prime minister. The sovereignty of this country was lost before the execution of Comrade. Ceausescu.

                  In 1944, the USSR ... attacked Romania? What planet are you from?

                  There was a sovereign FRY, untouched by anyone, your own speculations are uninteresting

                  Quote: Octopus
                  Manzhou-Guo was occupied by the USSR in August of the 45th year.

                  Similarly, in August of the 45th, the USSR attacked Japan along the land border on Sakhalin. As usual, the USSR flooro did as vile as possible August 12, two days after the announcement of the Potsdam Declaration by Japan


                  The USSR did everything exclusively PLEASANT: together with ALL peace-loving powers of the world FORCED the psychopath who was furious with blood and violence and rejected Japan to the world, than returned the world to ALL states of the region, including Japan itself.

                  It is hard to imagine a more noble mission recognized by the whole world.
                  Quote: Octopus
                  Baltic countries pursuant to famous Soviet-German agreements were occupied USSR since 1940

                  There is no agreement on occupation,. AT TABLE him, liar!
                  But there are Pacts between the USSR and the countries, as well as their decisions to enter it. No "attacks"

                  And the regime of the military coup d'état of the fascist Ulmanis can be called more democratic than Latvia, which decided to enter the USSR, can only be an idiot.

                  Quote: Octopus
                  Poland was liberated by the Belorussian (Kovalev) and Ukrainian (Tymoshenko) fronts from its government and army in September 1939 in accordance with the mentioned Soviet-German agreements.

                  part of the former Poland was PROTECTED from the Nazis in the conditions of the non-existence of Poland on September 17, 1939. Thanks to which people there were two years less experienced the horrors of Nazism than the poles.

                  I understand Your ardent desire to drive a million Jews this part in Auschwitz 2 years earlier, but the USSR did not give this, alas, to you.

                  What else do you have there?
                  Everything?

                  So it’s understandable ....
                3. Octopus
                  Octopus 11 June 2020 11: 01
                  +1
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  to Berlin and invited him to accept the German protectorate.
                  Who will refuse such an offer?

                  Yes. And what is wrong?

                  Are you trying to convince me of the predatory policy of the Reich? I know. I just pointed out that he did without a war. And with Czechoslovakia - there was no war.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  No resemblance

                  Well, you may not.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Damned Germany 1990, I agree!

                  Yes, in 1990, too, they made all the pieces of paper on the pile, too lively.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  The fact that Hitler is a PEACEKEEPER and PEACEKEEPER-I hear such a chuhnik for the first time in my life, from you!

                  I have to upset you, but I said something else.
                  Quote: Octopus
                  take abruptly and arrange a world war - two different things.

                  What about the big war
                  But no matter how gentlemen from the Havas agency lie, they cannot deny that:

                  a) Not Germany attacked France and England, but France and England attacked Germany, taking responsibility for the current war;

                  b) After the outbreak of hostilities, Germany turned to France and England with peace proposals, and the Soviet Union openly supported Germany's peace proposals, for he believed and continues to believe that an early end to the war would radically ease the situation of all countries and peoples;

                  c) The ruling circles of France and England grossly rejected both the peace proposals of Germany and the attempts of the Soviet Union to achieve an early end to the war.

                  These are the facts


                  It is rarely possible to agree with Comrade Stalin, but the facts really are.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Romania OCCUPIED part of Russia in 1918

                  Such globes were sold only in the USSR.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  In 1944, the USSR ... attacked Romania?

                  In 1944, the USSR gave instructions in Romania on the composition of the government and the candidacy of the prime minister. This I call a cousin in a family of fraternal peoples.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  There was a sovereign FRY

                  Without going into Balkan affairs, I note that you had to find the neighbors of the USSR in 1922, who escaped his brotherly love.
                  Yugoslavia was not a neighbor of the USSR.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  It is hard to imagine a more noble mission recognized by the whole world.

                  The USSR crossed the Japanese border after it announced unconditional surrender.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  There is no agreement on occupation,. AT TABLE him, liar!

                  Oh, what a bunny.

                  Do you really think that discussing the Baltic states in the same thread as Czechoslovakia is a good idea?
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  the regime of the military coup d'état fascist Ulmanis called more democratic than Latvia, which decided to enter the USSR

                  I don’t give a damn about Baltic democracy. I just pointed out that those states that border the USSR suddenly stopped bordering it, unexpectedly for themselves.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  I understand your ardent desire to drive a million Jews

                  Yes, yes, comrade Stalin loved the Jews very much, did everything for them. P. 2 above.

                  In any case, the state, which had a border with the USSR, suddenly ceased to have this border.

                  Find more examples of peace, or are you exhausted?
                4. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 11 June 2020 12: 10
                  -1
                  Quote: Octopus
                  Yes. And what is wrong?

                  Are you trying to convince me of the predatory policy of the Reich? I know. I just pointed out that he did without a war. And with Czechoslovakia - there was no war.

                  You just lied about the request of the Czechs to enter the Reich-cm. higher

                  At the TABLE this is a request, liar!

                  No such?

                  We fix, you lied

                  ..
                  Quote: Octopus
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  The fact that Hitler is a PEACEKEEPER and PEACEKEEPER-I hear such a chuhnik for the first time in my life, from you!

                  I have to upset you, but I said something else.

                  Yes, no, this is what you stated:
                  Octopus ----- after Poland he (both Hitler and the military) tried stay. ... and put forward peace initiatives.


                  This is what the nonsense of VAash about PEACEKEEPER Hitler ??
                  Quote: Octopus
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Romania OCCUPIED part of Russia in 1918

                  Such globes were sold only in the USSR.

                  The USSR of Romania never recognized the occupation of Bessarady in 1918, and demanded the return of its entire history, cut it on your forehead !.

                  And how could you attack .... your territory?
                  Quote: Octopus
                  In 1944, the USSR gave instructions in Romania on the composition of the government and the candidacy of the prime minister. This is what I call a cousin in a family of fraternal peoples.

                  But do not care about how someone calls?

                  WHERE is the attack on the CPP, you stated above?
                  No?

                  We fix, you lied.
                  Quote: Octopus
                  Without going into Balkan affairs, I note that you had to find the neighbors of the USSR in 1922, who escaped his brotherly love.
                  Yugoslavia was not a neighbor of the USSR.

                  1. You wrote and intrusions and not direct neighbors. Sclerosis again?
                  And why all the time poke you in ... you:
                  and to several countries with which there were no borders
                  ?

                  Quote: Octopus
                  USSR crossed the Japanese border after thatas she announced unconditional surrender.

                  What! belay lol Go to school!
                  Quote: Octopus
                  Oh, what a bunny.

                  Agreement of occupation-on the table ,, liar!
                  In the cited by you, not a word about her,
                  Quote: Octopus
                  I don’t give a damn about Baltic democracy. I just pointed out that those states that border the USSR suddenly stopped bordering it, unexpectedly for themselves.

                  I deeply do not care about your instructions, because no one attacked them (as you stated) and they entered the USSR on the basis of official documents, maybe pleasant and not very democratic regimes, but ... who would be talking about ... " democracy "?
                  Quote: Octopus
                  Find more examples of peace, or are you exhausted?


                  I already have a ton of similar ones, but you have examples of the opposite, in fact -... NOTHING.
                5. Octopus
                  Octopus 11 June 2020 13: 15
                  +2
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  At the TABLE this is a request, liar!

                  Oh, what a bunny.

                  Most of all I adore when characters like you stand in a pose of unattainable moral superiority.

                  For reference. I am aware that Mr. Hitler did not particularly respect the rights of the small nations of Europe, and the big ones too. I even know what methods he did business with the leadership of Austria in the 30s.

                  Nonetheless. He made Czechoslovakia as a whole and its president in particular a proposal that they could not refuse. With a kind word and a gun, you can achieve more than just a kind word, as one of his contemporaries said.

                  But that was not a war.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  This is what the nonsense of VAash about PEACEKEEPER Hitler ??

                  And, you were not aware of German peace initiatives? Well, now in the know, congratulations.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  The USSR NEVER recognized and demanded the return of its entire history-chop it on your forehead !.

                  The USSR could not recognize everything that it pleased. However, for some reason, he considered it necessary to agree with Germany without the participation of Romania. By the way, Sev. Bukovina never entered the Republic of Ingushetia. She was not even in the protocol, this caused a misunderstanding including German side.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  WHERE THE ATTACK AT CPP

                  The attack was in the 40th. Actions during the Second World War I do not present the USSR as an attack, in the case of Romania.

                  Well, that is, as an attack, they were asked (to collect manat), they could not refuse.

                  However, it is relevant to the case that in the 44th year in no one in the CPP, but in the Kingdom of Romania, Comrade VYSHINSKY. This is about the continued peace of mind to continue the conversation.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  You wrote about both intrusions and non-direct neighbors.

                  And where did I write that by indirect I meant FRY? It was four countries as a keepsake, while in the conversation only Lithuania came up from them. Again, I do not consider the Axis countries, like Slovakia or Hungary, there are no questions about this. Romania for the 40th year was not an Axis country, and the USSR still had no claims to the Axis.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  What?! Go to school!

                  The school is unlikely to tell you that Japan adopted the Potsdam Declaration on August 10, and hostilities in Sakhalin began on the night of 11 to 12.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  In the cited by you, not a word about her,

                  Uti ways.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  who would talk about ... "democracy"?

                  Only you are talking about democracy here. I am talking about the inclusion of states bordering the USSR in this wonderful, peace-loving country.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  in fact -... NOTHING.

                  Gosha. Found 6 + Manzhou-Guo countries in which the USSR built people's power, of which 5 countries that fully or partially entered the USSR, + Japan, which he returned the world to ALL states of the region, including Japan itself having conquered a little more territory from the departing train, and ALL NOTHING. Your pose is very funny.
                6. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 11 June 2020 14: 06
                  -1
                  Quote: Octopus
                  Oh, what a bunny.

                  Most of all I adore when characters like you stand in a pose of unattainable moral superiority.

                  But do not care about who and what loves? recourse And yet, yes!

                  You declared the REQUEST of the Czechs to enter the Reich.
                  Lied? Yes.
                  Quote: Octopus
                  And, you were not aware of German peace initiatives? Well, now in the know, congratulations.

                  I am aware that the Germans were preparing an invasion of Western Europe from 09,1939 (see above_ and yes, I believe that only the last itiot believes and declares .... Hitler’s peacefulness,)

                  But now you know about preparations from this date for an attack on Europe. I do not congratulate, but condolences: not knowing this is just beyond ...
                  Quote: Octopus
                  The USSR could not recognize everything that it pleased.

                  Romania can recognize anything as its own, for which got in the face-How Hitler received, as Hungary received, etc. euronactrash. And Bukovina including.

                  Or could only theirs be taken from Germany and no more ?.
                  Do not forget to announce this Big Three
                  Quote: Octopus
                  The attack was in the 40th. Actions during the Second World War I do not present the USSR as an attack, in the case of Romania.

                  Well, that is, as an attack, they were asked (to collect manat), they could not refuse.

                  There was no attack, see. higher
                  Quote: Octopus

                  However, it is relevant to the case that in the 44th year in no one in the CPP, but in the Kingdom of Romania, Comrade VYSHINSKY. This is about the continued peace of mind to continue the conversation.

                  Such is the fate of the Nazi henchmen-called-retribution for their deeds ..

                  Nevertheless, the sovereign CPR after all the atrocities was created anyway: it is an Act of the highest humanism
                  Quote: Octopus
                  The school is unlikely to tell you that Japan adopted the Potsdam Declaration on August 10, and hostilities in Sakhalin began on the night of 11 to 12.

                  You, excuse me, have already lifted up your manner of having to poke you into yours about, but you have to:
                  Octopus ------- USSR crossed the Japanese border after she announced unconditional surrender.

                  learn: yapps capitulated on September 2capitulation order only August 14th but they gave up already ... until mid-September, and spat on the ultimatum of the Allies from 26 July 1945
                  so go to school! and

                  Explore the noble USSR mission in southeast Asia.
                  Quote: Octopus
                  . I am talking about the inclusion of states bordering the USSR in this wonderful, peace-loving country.

                  You're lying, you're talking about the attack on these remarkably independent countries, and they entered on the basis of officers. ACTS. By the way, they recently were in this country and illegally left.
                  Quote: Octopus
                  Gosha. Found 6 + Manzhou-Guo countries in which the USSR built people's power, of which 5 countries that fully or partially entered the USSR, + Japan, which he returned the world to ALL states in the region, including - by Japan itself, having already won a little territory from the departing train, and ALL NOTHING. Your pose is very funny..

                  Yours, vraskoryachku, is ridiculous: you are trying to pull the terrible "aggression" of the USSR against all innocent fluffy peace-lovers. lol

                  I especially like your concern for the terribly offended, innocent Japan, and your disgust at the fact that USSR did not give send Jews east b. Poland in Auschwitz as early as 1939.
                  Shame ....
                7. Octopus
                  Octopus 11 June 2020 15: 00
                  +3
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  You declared the REQUEST of the Czechs to enter the Reich.

                  It?
                  Quote: Octopus
                  Comrade Gakha, on behalf of the Czech people, asked for Reich.

                  Comrade Gaha was asked to enter the Reich. That's better?

                  By the way, I remind you that after this sad event Gakha remained at his post. He died already under the liberators, in prison.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Germans were preparing invasions of Western Europe from 09,1939 (see above)

                  If you read what you write yourself, you would be aware that the Germans were preparing an invasion of the west. Europe when they already got the war with France and Britain (actually not, but you have written that it was only in September that they started).

                  That is, the Germans did not prepare for war.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Or could only theirs be taken from Germany and no more ?.

                  Yes Yes. You talked about peacefulness and kind of BLESSENESS somewhere above, please continue.

                  Speaking of Hitler. After the story in Bessarabia and Bukovina, the immoderate Antonescu came instead of a moderate government, and Romania became a military ally of Germany.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Do not forget to announce this Big Three

                  Are you talking about Yalta? Yalta is a crime of Churchill and, first of all, Roosevelt, there is nothing special to discuss here.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  sovereign CPR after all the atrocities was created anyway: this is an Act of the highest humanism

                  Yeah. For such acts of humanism of the USSR and love, it is a pity that not enough. Need more.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  yapps capitulated on September 2, capitulation order only on August 14

                  The Japanese on the 14th brought the order to the troops. The message of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to the Allies was the 10th. The USSR attacked knowing that the war was over. As for September 2, the Soviet Union needs to say thanks to the American degenerates, MacArthur and Byrnes for an additional 3 weeks of free hand. They spent this time figuring out how to mock the Japanese delegation. But comrade Stalin acted much more meaningfully.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  but they entered on the basis of an officer. ACT

                  The act was the wish of Comrade Molotov to place in these countries thousands of one hundred Red Army men and hold single-party elections there.
                  By the way, hello comrade Gahe. In addition to him in Soviet prisons were:
                  Merksis, the last president of Lithuania.
                  Ulmanis, the last president of Latvia.
                  Päts, the last president of Estonia.

                  Acts, yes. Acts are good, the Soviet government knew a lot about them.

                  Quote: Olgovich
                  trying to pull on a terrible "aggression" of the USSR against all innocent fluffy peace lovers

                  So far, you have not found a single country that the USSR has deprived.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  caring for a terribly offended innocent Japan

                  The border is - is, the treacherous attack is - is, we put a tick.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Your annoyance that the USSR did not allow the Jews of the east to be sent b. Poland in Auschwitz as early as 1939.

                  The crocodile tears of friends of the USSR about the fate of the Jews did not touch me for a minute. Google the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee and the Jackson-Broom Amendment.
                8. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 11 June 2020 17: 21
                  -1
                  Quote: Octopus
                  It?
                  Quote: Octopus
                  Comrade Gakha, on behalf of the Czech people, asked for Reich.

                  and this is not this, t, e. Lying?

                  it!
                  Quote: Octopus
                  By the way, I remind you that after this sad event Gakha remained at his post. He died already at the liberators, in prison

                  why, by the way? belay
                  Quote: Octopus
                  If you read what you write yourself, you would be aware that the Germans were preparing an invasion of the west. Europe when they already got the war with France and Britain (actually not, but you have written that it was only in September that they started).

                  we discussed the time period of "Hitler the Peacemaker" (in your opinion), read YOURSELF, finally.

                  It is indicated to you by FACTS WHAT was done in REALITY in this
                  Quote: Octopus
                  Yes Yes. You talked about peace and kind of ABNORMITY somewhere aboveplease continue.


                  Read me again, no pity.
                  You can memorize! yes
                  Quote: Octopus
                  Speaking of Hitler. After the story in Bessarabia and Bukovina, the immoderate Antonescu came instead of a moderate government, and Romania became a military ally of Germany.

                  Germany gave Romanian richest territories Hungary and Bulgaria, with a territory of almost TWO TIMES greater than Bessarabia.

                  She would become an ally .... USSR (by your logic). But no ... request

                  Quote: Octopus
                  Are you talking about Yalta? Yalta is a crime of Churchill and, first of all, Roosevelt, there is nothing special to discuss here.

                  Of course, this stupidity you claimed is not even discussed.
                  Quote: Octopus
                  Yeah. For such acts of humanism of the USSR and love, it is a pity that not enough. Need more.

                  I agree, it was necessary to THROUGH these "allies" so that they are still thin and naked, such is the scale of the atrocities they committed. Then we would remember our sins and love more. Diluted with them uchi-pusi, fu
                  Quote: Octopus
                  The Japanese on the 14th brought the order to the troops. The message of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to the Allies was the 10th. The USSR attacked knowing that the war was over.

                  Lying again: August 10, 1945 Japan officially announced about readiness accept the Potsdam terms of surrender (and not of surrender, as You LIE again) with a reservation regarding the preservation of the structure of imperial power in the country. August 11, the United States rejected Japanese amendment insisting on the formula of the Potsdam conference; in the end only August 14, Japan formally accepted terms of the cap.

                  The Soviet Socialist Republic began to beat animals on the Ninth of August.

                  Got it, no?

                  Quote: Octopus
                  So far, not a single country that the USSR deprivedYou did not find.

                  And in Russian?
                  Quote: Octopus
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  caring for a terribly offended innocent Japan

                  The border is - is, the treacherous attack is - is, we put a tick

                  At least put a brace on yourself about the noblest and most legitimate mission of the USSR for the destruction of infuriated animals adored by you
                  Quote: Octopus
                  Crocodile tears of friends of the USSR aboutJews’s dreams do not touch me for a minute.

                  Duc, what am I talking about?
                  You deep you regret that the Nazis didn’t succeed in exterminating the Jews in 1939, and used east Poland was two years less destroyed by the Nazis.

                  this is disgusting, in my opinion, I have already said.
                9. Octopus
                  Octopus 11 June 2020 19: 12
                  +1
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  it!

                  Congratulations.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  why, by the way?

                  Moreover, the oppressed Gakh after that was the president of the protectorate after 7 years. But it was not even the invaders who sent him to prison at all, but rather the liberators.

                  Like the Baltic comrades listed below, and much earlier than Gakhi.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  we discussed the time frame of "Hitler the Peacemaker"

                  Hitler the peacemaker is your trouble. We are with Comrade Stalin pointed to the peace initiatives of Germany, which are a historical fact.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Germany surrendered the romanian richest territories of Hungary and Bulgaria,

                  Yes, Romania was not a pearl in the early 40s. What is the question?
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  I agree, these "allies" should have been BATTLED so that they are still thin and naked, such is the scale of the atrocities they committed

                  Yes Yes. Something the East European comrades forgot about the friendship of peoples, some even sold offal. Need to remind more often.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  The Soviet Socialist Republic began to beat animals on the Ninth of August.

                  You, I look, selectively mastered Wikipedia.

                  On the 9th, hostilities began on the mainland (formally against the Kwantung Army in Manzhou, another state allegedly not covered by Soviet peace), as well as in Korea, the Japanese colony. The fighting against directly the territory of Japan began on the 11th (Sakhalin) and the 18th (Kuril Islands) on August.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  with a reservation regarding the preservation of the structure of imperial power in the country

                  Well, if there are reservations on imperial power, the holy thing of the USSR is to seize some other's property, while everyone is engaged in crocheting there.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  And in Russian?

                  What in Russian? Listing the countries on which the USSR did not attack, you named 3 Soviet republics, 4 countries of people's democracy and one state formation, which the peacefulness of the USSR did not survive at all. And Japan, on the account of which you are pouring out here, that they say that it should be so.

                  However, like all the others listed.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  USSR's noblest and most legitimate mission to destroy

                  All the missions of the USSR to destroy were noble and legitimate, there are just no doubts.

                  We began by talking about the possibility of a long-term alliance with such a nobler and most legitimate phenomenon of international relations as the USSR was.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  You deeply regret that the Nazis did not succeed in exterminating the Jews in 1939

                  Well, you, as usual, lied. I stated that I was not going to thank Comrade. Stalin for the fate of Polish Jews. Very sad, I note fate.

                  By the way, they say, they died in connection with the liquidation of the state of Poland. Which liquidation is described in guess what document of the 39th year.
                10. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 12 June 2020 06: 40
                  -1
                  Quote: Octopus
                  Congratulations.

                  It’s good that they admitted their lies.
                  It’s not clear why you lied.
                  Quote: Octopus
                  Moreover, the oppressed Gakh after that was the president of the protectorate after 7 years. But it was not even the invaders who sent him to prison at all, but rather the liberators.

                  1. We do not discuss Gakh. So, no way

                  2. The occupiers, for what to put in jail? belay What did you want to say?
                  Quote: Octopus
                  Hitlerpeacemaker is your trouble. We are with Comrade Stalin pointed to the peace initiatives of Germany, which are a historical fact

                  Lying, this is your assertion, for this nude:
                  Octopus ----- after Poland he (both Hitler and the military) tried stay. and ... put forward peaceful initiatives
                  YOU wrote.

                  "Stay" from "peaceful initiatives "is not" Hitler the peacemaker? "And what is it?

                  Frozen nonsense, so at least admit
                  Quote: Octopus
                  Yes, Romania was not a pearl in the early 40s. What is the question?

                  In your crazy rationale for the emergence of anti-Soviet Romania here:
                  Quote: Octopus
                  Speaking of Hitler. After the history of Bessarabia and Bukovina, Romania became a military ally of Germany.

                  As you have proved, Romania had much more anti-German foundations.

                  And anti-Soviet Romania, in a union with Germany, seized foreign territories; Giler promised it Odessa with the whole of Transnistria to the south. Bug.

                  So stupid training manual, throw it out.
                  Quote: Octopus
                  You, I look, selectively mastered Wikipedia.

                  On the 9th, hostilities began on the mainland (formally against the Kwantung Army in Manzhou, another state allegedly not covered by Soviet peace), as well as in Korea, the Japanese colony. The fighting against directly the territory of Japan began on the 11th (Sakhalin) and the 18th (Kuril Islands) on August.

                  You
                  The red-haired one was quite comfortable with the situation and quite sensibly, albeit monotonously, told the contents of the mass brochure "Rebellion on Ochakovo"
                  lol
                  I wrote "on August 9th I began to beat Japanese animals", without indication of the place, didn’t it?
                  Quote: Octopus
                  What in Russian?

                  SAY what they wanted with the expression "the USSR deprived it"?
                  What deprived, how deprived?
                  Quote: Octopus
                  All the missions of the USSR to destroy were noble and legitimate, there are just no doubts.

                  I am pleased that you recognized this with respect to Japan and no longer carry nonsense about the unconditional surrender of Japan on August 10 (it was not there, which is proved to you)
                  Quote: Octopus
                  Well, you, as usual, lied. I stated that I was not going to thank Comrade. Stalin for the fate of Polish Jews. Very sad, I note fate.

                  You declared the desirability of occupying the second-hand eastern Poland by Germany, which meant the Holocaust there already in 1939. Some kind of cannibalism ...
                11. Octopus
                  Octopus 12 June 2020 09: 48
                  +1
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Well, that recognized

                  What is called, to get to the lamppost.

                  The last time I discuss with you the nuances of the relationship between Hitler and Gakhi.

                  It began with my statement.
                  Quote: Octopus
                  Moreover, such a seizure took shape more or less casually as an expression of will.


                  After that, you lit a bootleg about the Czechoslovak case.

                  Yes, Gakha asked for a good protectorate. Because he was told either that way or in a bad way. It is said by a man who could be trusted in this regard.

                  Was Hitler a moral person and a friend of the Czech people? No wasn `t.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  To the occupiers, WHAT should I put him in jail? What did you want to say?

                  What he wanted, he said. The president of Czechoslovakia and the president of the protectorate was the same person. Who was repressed and possibly killed without trial (and without the knowledge of the Benes government recognized by the USSR) was not the German occupiers, but the Soviet liberators.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  "Stop" with "peace initiatives" is not "Hitler the peacemaker?" What is this?

                  This is an attempt to take profits and close the position. See Minsk Agreements.
                  And there were no peacekeepers there.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  It was proved to you that Romania had much more anti-German foundations.

                  Yours foundations exist in your head. In reality, Romania’s foreign policy crisis brought the extreme right to power. And the first loss of Romania was precisely Bessarabia / Bukovina.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  without location

                  Yeah. At the same time, I talked about the attack on Japan, and you, for some reason, write about the Soviet attack on Manzhou. Which you identified as a separate state.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  What deprived, how deprived?

                  Deprived of his peacefulness and nobility, of course.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  more bullshit about unconditional surrender of Japan on August 10 (it was not, which is proved to you)

                  You, as usual, are lying. I wrote the following.
                  Quote: Octopus
                  The USSR crossed the Japanese border after it announced unconditional surrender.

                  This is true for the Kuril Islands, this is not true for Y. Sakhalin.
                  Quote: Octopus
                  Japan adopted the Potsdam Declaration on August 10, and hostilities on Sakhalin began on the night of 11 to 12.

                  That was so. To this, you stated that Japan made a reservation about the preservation of the monarchy (which in reality was preserved), but the Americans who were sick on the head decided to visit. The above circumstances, in your and Soviet views, make the removal of Japanese oil concessions a noblest and most legitimate occupation.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  You have declared the desirability of occupying the second-hand eastern Poland by Germany

                  And here you are lying a little. I stated that the USSR was liberating the right half of Poland by forces of two fronts: unexpectedly, of the Polish army at the same time as Germany, naturally, by the forces of two GAs, occupied its own piece of Poland.
                12. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 12 June 2020 10: 41
                  -1
                  Quote: Octopus
                  What is called, to get to the lamppost.

                  You lied, which is recognized after you pointed out the FACTS ..
                  Quote: Octopus
                  Yes Gaha asked in the protectorate in a good way.

                  You lying - And it was indicated to you (and you agreed) that he did NOT ASK, but he was convincingly OFFERED.

                  "Buy a brick!" - familiar?

                  And again, you wag your head request
                  Quote: Octopus
                  What did you want, then said. The president of Czechoslovakia and the president of the protectorate was the same person. Who were repressed and perhaps, killed without trial (and without the knowledge of the Benes government recognized by the USSR) not the German occupiers, but the Soviet liberators.

                  Nekstati said ..

                  maybe, yes, maybe not .... Will we guess? Yes and spit on insignificance ...

                  Quote: Octopus
                  This is an attempt to take profits and close the position. See Minsk Agreements.

                  Again, a jump to the side, which Minsk 1940 -39?
                  Quote: Octopus
                  And there were no peacekeepers there.

                  I am glad that they recognized their own nonsense about Hitler the peacemaker and no longer drink this:
                  Quote: Octopus ----- after Poland Hitler tried to stop. ... and put forward peace initiatives
                  Quote: Octopus
                  Your foundations exist in your head. In reality, Romania’s foreign policy crisis brought the extreme right to power. And the first loss of Romania was precisely Bessarabia / Bukovina.

                  And the second, SOLVING loss was Transylvania and Y. Dobrogea taken by Hitler. But Hitler, in spite of this, was a blind friend, for he had promised ROMANIA still ROMANIA. This was the reason for the aggression against the USSR.
                  Quote: Octopus
                  Yeah. At the same time, I talked about the attack on Japan, and you, for some reason, write about the Soviet attack on Manzhou. Which you identified as a separate state.

                  You wrote about the unconditional surrender of yupps on August 10th. which turned out to be a lie again.
                  The outline of events (including this) and facts set forth above,
                  Quote: Octopus
                  Deprived of his peacefulness and nobility, of course

                  Then it is more correct-endowed with the opportunity to live and exist
                  Quote: Octopus
                  I wrote the following.
                  Quote: Octopus
                  The USSR crossed the Japanese border after it announced unconditional surrender.

                  And it turned out to be a lie
                  Quote: Octopus
                  O Americans, sick on the head, decided to visit.

                  Oh, you Americans are already bad. And yapps were bulling from 26 July: no one bothering them to give up
                  Quote: Octopus
                  The above circumstances, in your and Soviet views, make the removal of Japanese oil concessions a noblest and most legitimate occupation.

                  What are these ..... Japanese? Which they pressed during the aggression of 1904?
                  Quote: Octopus
                  I stated that the USSR was liberating the right half of Poland by forces of two fronts: unexpectedly, of the Polish army at the same time as Germany, naturally, by the forces of two GAs, occupied its own piece of Poland.

                  He DEFENDED used Poland from the Nazis. Poland, Agglia and the United States, UNDERSTANDING this, did NOT declare war, Churchill praised and recognized.

                  You alone are for the Nazis in Brest, and for the Jews of Brest in Auschwitz in 1939

                  And yes: your lie is established, you are recognized, thank you all. and good luck hi
                13. Octopus
                  Octopus 12 June 2020 20: 04
                  0
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  thanks to all. and good luck

                  Well, summarize the years.
                  1. Here, somewhere above, doubts were expressed about participation in the discussion. The person of your knowledge and your temperament. But such a discussion can also be useful.
                  a) even such an opponent as you finds unsuccessful, messy formulations and punishes them. Sloppiness in theses and a craving for a red word are bad habits that are behind me, so thanks for the help.
                  b) even such an opponent as you can, if not bring new knowledge to the conversation, then at least help me see the gaps in mine. I am generally familiar with the outline of the Second World War, but I first learned about Transnistria, somehow basically ignored the German rear. This is an interesting topic, it would be better to understand it.

                  You got into a conversation on the thesis.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Quote: Octopus
                  The Third Reich until the 39th year was completely not going to seriously invest somewhere.


                  And TWO captured large European countries are just jokers

                  .Even after Poland, he (both Hitler and the military) tried to stop.
                  lol Yeah, "tried" to stop ... his hands, which raked in Belgium, Holland, Denmark, etc., etc.

                  .For the Stalin and Hitler period, the USSR and the Reich attacked all but one country with which they had a land border at the time of their appearance (and several countries with which they had no borders)

                  A blatant lie.

                  The World War, in which 62 out of 74 countries participated, leading to a global redivision of the world, solved .... small-town issues ?!
                  I have never heard such a thing before.

                  You jumped off the fourth thesis. OK, close this topic.

                  The third thesis you refuted by example
                  Romania, for example, such things could be known .. China, Manzhou-go, Japan, Mongolia, the Baltic states, Poland, etc.


                  Enumerating countries, one of which (not quite a country, according to the world community - the occupied part of China. Like the MPR) was destroyed as a result of the USSR invasion, three became part of the USSR, three lost territories as a result of the war with the USSR or an ultimatum from the USSR , 4 gained popular power, although by the 22nd year, at the time of the creation of the USSR, in all these countries the Communists had more or less successfully outweighed (except for the MPR).

                  After such a brilliant refutation, you began to soar my brains with rotten Soviet excuses: from “we saved them” (Poland) through “she came by herself” (the Baltic states) to “just right for them” (Romania, Japan). These excuses do not alter the fact that the aforementioned geographical successes were achieved by the forces of the liberation army. No other way.

                  In the second thesis, you started telling me that Germany, who would have thought, conducted military operations. The fact that it was Germany that proposed the world in 39 and 40, and England and France stood before the victorious war (in the 40th — without France already) you proudly ignored.

                  Worse, you started pouring quotes from Hitler and Wehrmacht documents after Declarations of war by France and Britain. That is, in your reality, Hitler began to prepare for war, when he had already declared this war.

                  On the first question, you again began to soar my brain, Hitler enshrined the Czechs in the person of Gakha, or out of love. A question worthy of Andrei Malakhov, but to your original thesis about the capture of Bohemia and Moravia as necessary stage of preparation for WWII, in fact already WWII this has nothing to do.
                  stage of the outbreak of world war.
                  Without this, she simply would NOT exist.


                  This is based on your main presentation.

                  On the little things.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  "Buy a brick!" - familiar?

                  Yes, that’s how things were done in Europe in those years, you got it right.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Yes and spit on insignificance ...

                  Gakha was not a hero, but a good man and a good citizen. In a terrible time.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  the second, DECISIVE loss was Transylvania and Y. Dobrogea taken by Hitler

                  As you correctly noted, as a result of these events, Hitler's friends came to power, and not the USSR at all. So who is there too greedy, the Soviet side or the German, it is known for sure.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  endowed with the opportunity to live and exist

                  Yes, but it was possible to live in those countries that were able to fight off Soviet peace.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Already, you have bad Americans

                  I don’t like Americans so much that I can’t eat. You have not encountered me before in WWII.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Which they pressed during the aggression of 1904?

                  Yes, exactly then. 18 years before the creation of the USSR.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  He DEFENDED used Poland from the Nazis

                  He defended Poland from the Nazis by agreement with the Nazis, if I do not confuse anything.
                14. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 13 June 2020 08: 41
                  -1
                  Quote: Octopus
                  Well, summarize the years.

                  I have already "summed up" - see. above.
                  Quote: Octopus
                  1. Here, somewhere above, doubts were expressed about participation in the discussion. The person of your knowledge and your temperament.

                  I do not pay attention to such nudes of marginals. Is it ... important for you? request
                  Quote: Octopus
                  even an opponent like you finds unsuccessful, messy formulations and punishes them. Sloppiness in theses and a craving for a red word are bad habits that are behind me, so thanks for the help.

                  1. Not "even", but ANY opponent will see your simple bloopers, cutting the eye with absurdity and striving for shocking.

                  2. The red noisy word and the sloppiness in its design are the essence of your comments.
                  Quote: Octopus
                  You climbed in conversation

                  1. In whose I "got in" the conversation, a liar? tell me!

                  2. "Climbed"? ... What is the way to speak down, disdainfully sticking out his slobbering lip? request
                  Quote: Octopus
                  You jumped off the fourth thesis

                  belay lol
                  Close your jump
                  Quote: Octopus
                  Enumerating countries, one of which (not quite a country, according to the world community - the occupied part of China. Like the MPR) was destroyed as a result of the USSR invasion, three became part of the USSR, three lost territories as a result of the war with the USSR or an ultimatum from the USSR , 4 gained popular power, although by the 22nd year, at the time of the creation of the USSR, in all these countries the Communists had more or less successfully outweighed (except for the MPR).

                  .

                  1. You are sloppy again: having started the sentence with the participle turnover you ... you haven’t finished it. It turned out nonsense. Or ... just illiterate?

                  So, maybe we need to tuck a sponge?

                  2. We fix: your mistake about the only unhurt Turkey turned out to be, however, a manifestation of ignorance.
                  Quote: Octopus
                  After such a brilliant refutation, you began to soar my brains with rotten Soviet excuses: from “we saved them” (Poland) through “she came by herself” (the Baltic states) to “just right for them” (Romania, Japan). These excuses do not alter the fact that the aforementioned geographical successes were achieved by the forces of the liberation army. No other way.

                  1. "Soar, excuses" - leave it for your marginal circle.

                  2. The USSR fulfilled the mission of restoring peace and punishing aggressors in accordance with international law.
                  Quote: Octopus
                  In the second thesis, you started telling me that Germany, who would have thought, conducted military operations. The fact that it was Germany that proposed the world in 39 and 40, and England and France stood before the victorious war (in the 40th — without France already) you proudly ignored.

                  I told you countless times that Your vision of Hitler-PEACEKEEPER- amazing to me and hundreds of millions (sure) - see above.
                  Quote: Octopus
                  Even worse, you began to pour in quotes from Hitler and the Wehrmacht documents that appeared after the declaration of war by France and Britain. That is, in your reality, Hitler began to prepare for war, when he had already declared this war.

                  The documents are given in response to your propaganda of Hitler the Peacemaker, who, allegedly, after declaring war on him, already did not want to fight ....

                  The documents cited show that in real reality he wanted PREPARED for a campaign to the West from September 1939.

                  We fix: Hitler the peacemaker is your nonsense and Molotov.
                  Quote: Octopus
                  Gakha was not a hero, but a good man and a good citizen. In a terrible time.

                  scoundrel and disgusting citizen who surrendered the country to the Nazis
                  Quote: Octopus
                  As you correctly noted, as a result of these events, Hitler's friends came to power, and not the USSR at all. So who is there too greedy, the Soviet side or the German, it is known for sure.

                  A prostitute gives to the one who gives more. And not because they offended her. Really and it does not reach?

                  Quote: Octopus
                  He defended Poland from the Nazis by agreement with the Nazis, if I do not confuse anything.

                  Aerobatics-save people without casualties and battles!

                  In your opinion, just a club to wave?

                  So you, in the Stone Age, yes ...
                15. Red Dragon
                  Red Dragon 13 June 2020 10: 01
                  -1
                  Yes beautifully your propaganda propaganda dear Octopus ridiculed. Secret Protocol on the division of spheres of influence - this is not aggression no-no wink Himself is not funny? wink The Baltic states very, very legitimately entered the USSR. Well, just like the Finns, they almost entered, they could only fight back. And so, too, everything would be very legitimate. I’m thinking how you connect what cannot be connected. On the one hand, to say that Soviet power is criminal in domestic politics, on the other hand, in the external Soviet power, angels with wings are direct. The same people. Here's how ??? wink
                16. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 13 June 2020 10: 41
                  0
                  Quote: Red Dragon
                  а handsomely dear octopus l

                  "To whom and a mare-bride!" (C) yes
                  Quote: Red Dragon
                  The secret protocol on the division of spheres of influence is not aggression, not, isn’t it funny?

                  Spheres of influence have always existed and will exist, laughter.

                  Are you for Hitler in Brest and the Jews in Auschwitz in 1939? Bravo!
                  Quote: Red Dragon
                  The Baltic states very, very legitimately entered the USSR

                  Legitimate and legal for those times, yes, if you think what it is.

                  Let me remind you that the Munich-model of legitimacy has just taken place

                  Quote: Red Dragon
                  Well, just like the Finns, they almost entered, they could only fight back. And so, too, everything would be very legitimate.

                  They invaded Finland - this was a mistake.
                  Quote: Red Dragon
                  I'm I thinkhow you connect what cannot be connected
                  lol

                  In The Golden Calf, Osya Bender answered very well to such a "thinker" / thinker
                  Quote: Red Dragon
                  On the one hand, to say that Soviet power is criminal in domestic politics, on the other hand, in the same Soviet power, angels with wings are direct. The same people. Here's how ???



                  The country RETURNS ITS, lost earlier.

                  The country destroyed the evil villains recognized as such by all humanity.

                  Got it ???
                17. Red Dragon
                  Red Dragon 13 June 2020 11: 01
                  -2
                  What is yours? Previously conquered? So any aggression can be justified. wink Great Britain and the Mongol Empire have even more "their own" in the world and that. Return on a new one? How does Finland differ from the Baltics? People are close, were part of the Russian Empire, and those and those, it means "their own". Why is one mistake and the other not? He felt sorry for the Jews. Perhaps those who were shot in Babi Yar? Comrade Stalin did not care deeply about the Jews of the Warsaw ghetto or Babi Yar. wink
                18. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 13 June 2020 11: 13
                  0
                  Quote: Red Dragon
                  What is yours? Ранее conquered?

                  The Baltic states were previously PURCHASED, ignoramus,
                  Quote: Red Dragon
                  So any aggression can be justified.

                  What are your western friends doing their whole story
                  Quote: Red Dragon
                  Great Britain and the Mongol Empire have even more "their own" in the world and that. Return on a new one?

                  Horseradish (root crop) only looks like a finger, but these are different things, chop on your forehead!
                  Quote: Red Dragon
                  And how is Finland different from the Baltic?

                  Both people live there, yes. But their stories are completely different
                  Quote: Red Dragon
                  Jews feel sorry for him. Could it be that those who were shot in Babi Yar? Comrade Stalin, it was deeply spit on the Jews, that the Warsaw ghetto, that Babi Yar

                  ALL Jews are pitifully killed, burned, tortured, expelled is a terrible, terrible tragedy of the people of the Holocaust.

                  And the Nazis, recognized by the WORLD nonhumans. And to these NON-PEOPLE you would like to give the residents of used eastern Poland.

                  And who are you after that, huh? .
                19. Red Dragon
                  Red Dragon 13 June 2020 11: 47
                  -1
                  So Comrade Stalin also gave. By signing through Molotov a secret protocol. First, the Jews in Warsaw, and two years later in Babi Yar. What are the differences for Jews freed from Polish power? Which by the way many lived in the Warsaw ghetto before 1943, but not shot in 1941. wink
                20. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 13 June 2020 11: 59
                  0
                  Quote: Red Dragon
                  So Comrade Stalin also gave. By signing through Molotov a secret protocol. First Jews in Warsaw

                  1. He had ... an obligation / treaty to protect Warsaw? fool
                  To her table!

                  2. What is at least one reason for the non-military non-occupation of the whole of Poland by Hitler in the absence of the Pact. WHAT are they afraid of?

                  3. Do you even know that he made the decision on aggression in APRIL 1939?

                  Quote: Red Dragon
                  What are the differences for Jews freed from Polish power?

                  They lived 2 years longer, many left further from the border.
                  You don't want to live 2 more years, "little thing", right? Make such a statement!
                  Quote: Red Dragon
                  Which by the way are many in the Warsaw ghetto until 1943 have livedand not shot in 1941

                  Oh, so you already agreed that you didn’t burn Jews until 1843!

                  What Russophobia brings .....
                21. Red Dragon
                  Red Dragon 13 June 2020 12: 07
                  -1
                  Google the uprising in the Warsaw ghetto ignoramus. Year on the table. The shooting in Babi Yar. Nationalist You Olgovich. Only Russian. No better than the Right Sector. wink
                22. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 13 June 2020 12: 28
                  0
                  Quote: Red Dragon
                  Google the uprising in the Warsaw ghetto ignoramus. Year on the table. The shooting in Babi Yar.

                  So what? Can you express your so-called "thought" in Russian?

                  This is the answer to SIMPLE questions:
                  1. He had ... an obligation / treaty to protect Warsaw? fool
                  To her table!

                  2. What is at least one reason for the non-military non-occupation of the whole of Poland by Hitler in the absence of the Pact. WHAT are they afraid of ?:

                  Shame ....
                  Quote: Red Dragon
                  Nationalist You Olgovich. Only Russian. No better than the Right Sector

                  1. All people are brothers!

                  2. But does anyone sneeze and how.
                  Quote: Red Dragon
                  The buyer of the territory together with people damn

                  This was then a generally accepted practice. And even earlier, people ate. Then it was also normal. Each time has its own understanding of normality
                  Quote: Red Dragon
                  In Russia, white, in the United States black. To return them to your nobles, ignoramus, so what?

                  In the USA, WHITE used to be bought than black, ignorant
                  Quote: Red Dragon
                  To return them to your nobles, ignoramus, so what?

                  belay lol laughing
                23. Red Dragon
                  Red Dragon 13 June 2020 12: 37
                  -1
                  The fact that many Jews in Warsaw lived two years longer than Jews protected by the Soviet Union. 1941 execution in Babi Yar, 1943 uprising in the Warsaw ghetto. This is because someone lived two years more, and someone less. The mustachioed allies tried together.
                24. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 13 June 2020 13: 09
                  -1
                  Quote: Red Dragon
                  The fact that many Jews in Warsaw lived two years longer than the Gewevi defended by the Soviet Union. 1941 execution in Babi Yar, 1943 uprising in the Warsaw ghetto. This is because someone lived two years more, and someone less



                  even the mollusk understood this: people in the second-hand century. Poland lived on 2 years more
                  Memorize
                  In many localities, the killing of Jews began in the very first days after the arrival of the Germans. Already June 28 1941 g in 2 Jews were killed in Bialystok, and a few thousand more a few days later. July 10 in Brest-Litovsk was shot, according to various sources, 5 to 10 thousand Jews. From August 5 to 7, 10 thousand Jews were killed in Pinsk [
                  etc.

                  AGAIN - didn’t it?

                  Tired of ....
                25. Red Dragon
                  Red Dragon 13 June 2020 13: 16
                  -1
                  Yes, the amateurs lover himself is tired. Except for the Russian nationalist blizzard you are not carrying anything. In Warsaw, many Jews lived until 1943, maybe until 1943 they would have lived without Comrade Stalin’s defender in Pinsk, Bialystok, etc., which is incomprehensible ignoramus? wink
        2. Red Dragon
          Red Dragon 13 June 2020 12: 11
          -1
          The buyer of the territory together with people damn it. laughing In Russia and the USA in the 18-9th century people were also bought. landowners and planters. In Russia, white, in the United States black. To return them to your nobles, ignoramus, so what? wink
        3. Red Dragon
          Red Dragon 13 June 2020 12: 20
          -1
          A lover of emperors with a Pale of Settlement and Jewish pogroms about Jews shed tears of hypocrisy. Do not make me laugh. wink
  24. Octopus
    Octopus 13 June 2020 13: 31
    +2
    Quote: Red Dragon
    On the one hand, to say that Soviet power is criminal in domestic politics, on the other hand, in the same Soviet power, angels with wings are direct. The same people. Here's how ???

    Quote: Olgovich
    COUNTRY RETURNS ITS LOST

    Why is Olgovich good, why should we be grateful to him?
    Graduate student. Fashionable smart.
    In the buttonhole is a scarlet bow.
    Lilac blooms all around.
    Tavern "Deer".

    What a life it was!
    What a life bloomed!
    When Volodya Blank
    Went all-in.


    Olgovich, to the comical, clearly illustrates the very crisp Russia. Russia of Tyutchev and Pobedonostsev, Stolypin and Purishkevich. Yes, she was a much more normal state than the USSR, but she and the White Cause, for the most part, were the same anti-Russian, imperial project. For Olgovich, as well as for the generals of Civil, people, Russians and non-Russians, their life, freedom, dignity, happiness did not matter. All this was obscured by them as a huge spot on the political map of the world.

    Naturally, for such whites (and many directly wrote about it), Stalin, and not Rakhmaninov and Nabokov, was the highest manifestation of Russianness (or rather, of course, the Russian imperial idea). It was under him that the political map of the world looked the most pleasant way for lovers of Great Russia.

    Thanks to Olgovich for not letting us forget what Russia was that we lost. You cannot take the crimes of the Bolsheviks for the indulgence of everything that tsarist Russia did with the Russian, and, alas, not only the Russian people.
  25. Olgovich
    Olgovich 14 June 2020 08: 21
    -2
    Quote: Octopus
    Yes, it was a much more normal state than the USSR, but both it and the White cause, for the most part, were the same anti-Russian, imperial project.

    who are you, Nobody, to judge what is Russian, what is not? lol
    Quote: Octopus
    For Olgovich, as well as for the generals of Civil, people, Russian and non-Russian, did not matter life, freedom, dignity, happiness.

    It top priorities civilian generals who set them the goal of their struggle.

    And this can be done within the framework of a single, free, not torn apart part of the Fatherland
    Quote: Octopus
    All this was obscured by them as much as possible. more huge spot on the political map of the world.


    For a rootless beast, Russia is a "spot", but for people it is a patronymic.
    Quote: Octopus
    Naturally, for such whites (and many directly wrote about it), Stalin, and not Rachmaninoff with Nabokov, was the highest manifestation of Russianness (or rather, of course, the Russian imperial idea).

    belay fool lol
    Show-WHERE is it with me in one word, even with a half-word liar? On their table, liar!
    Quote: Octopus
    It was under him that the political map of the world looked the most pleasant way for lovers of Great Russia.

    belay fool lol
    1. On this map, even the name of the country "Russia", an ignoramus, was absent.
    2. Is it "nice"? fool
    Quote: Octopus
    what was Russia that we lost.


    By the way, what was Russia that YOU lost?
    Quote: Octopus
    You can’t take the crimes of the Bolsheviks for the indulgence of all that

    Slut, write in Russian: HOW crimes can be ... indulgence ?!
    Quote: Octopus
    what did and, alas, not only the Russian people.

    And the most made people, apparently recourse . I seem to have guessed ... Tell me that you are not him! yes

    PS Look at your comment, NO WORDS on the topic.
    Empty flood
    Quote: Octopus
    It seemed to me that you took off, but no.

    I took my leave, yes, but you stuck again, see. higher
    Quote: Octopus
    As I have already said, the funniest feature of Soviet people is the passion to push on white togas and climb on marble pedestals.

    But do not care that someone Nobody says? How do you think?
    Quote: Octopus
    Yes Yes. We agreed with the German and taught the Lithuanian aggressors, with whom on August 39th there is no common border, everyone knows that.
    Quote: Olgovich
    Hitler the peacemaker is your nonsense and Molotov.

    Hitler the peacemaker, like most of your arguments, is a "straw scarecrow" trick, when you expose the nonsense that you yourself invented.

    This has already been discussed several times: it is established that you are a slut and doomed your miracle-thoughts to a clumsy form, substituting and ridiculous, then twisting yourself lol .
    Quote: Octopus
    And Gakha saved as many Czechs as he could. Alas, not everyone was saved, not all. Made some scary mistakes for example signed racial laws

    Yeah, that means that Hitler, in your opinion, was just "wrong."
    Gaha drowning, which are few, yes ...
    Quote: Octopus
    A separate attraction of the inner world of Soviet man

    A separate attraction of the used world of Soviet people is the ability to NOT answer a DIRECT question by writing a bunch of abstract neither.
    But I him I will repeat:
    Quote: Olgovich
    Name at least one reason non-war and non-occupation of the whole of Poland by Hitler in the absence of a Covenant.

    Coward. s yes ... request
    Quote: Octopus
    And these people say something there against Hitler the peacemaker

    Are you still picking ... in the nose?

    Yeah, that explains a lot. hi lol
  26. Octopus
    Octopus 14 June 2020 19: 55
    0
    Quote: Olgovich
    And the most made people, this, apparently. I seem to have guessed ... Tell me that you are not him!

    Oh you, it smelled like a Russian spirit!

    He opened the window, ventilated.
  27. Olgovich
    Olgovich 14 June 2020 21: 13
    -1
    Quote: Octopus
    He opened the window, ventilated.


    Oh how, and people air much more often .... what

    How do you live in ... constant stink? belay

    Habit? She's obviously damned, yes ..

    You take care of yourself there, for the benefit of TOTAL (you have TOTAL, right? lol ) hi
  28. Octopus
    Octopus 13 June 2020 14: 48
    +2
    It seemed to me that you took off, but no.
    Quote: Olgovich
    manner-to speak down, fastidiously protruding salivating lip?

    As I have already said, the funniest feature of Soviet people is the passion to push on white togas and climb on marble pedestals.
    Quote: Olgovich
    mission to restore peace and punish aggressors in accordance with international law.

    Yes Yes. We agreed with the German and taught the Lithuanian aggressors, with whom on August 39th there is no common border, everyone knows that.
    Quote: Olgovich
    Hitler the peacemaker is your nonsense and Molotov.

    Hitler the peacemaker, like most of your arguments, is a "straw scarecrow" trick, when you expose the nonsense that you yourself invented.
    Quote: Olgovich
    scoundrel and disgusting citizen who surrendered the country to the Nazis

    The scoundrels were Roosevelt, Truman and Eisenhower, who surrendered to the Communists this unfortunate country, their ally, a member of the anti-Hitler coalition. Unlike Gakhi, they had a choice, and they chose 50 years of slavery and poverty for tens of millions of people, in the Czech Republic and throughout Eastern Europe, for the wretched UN chimera.

    Although what 50 years? If God instead of Reagan continued to send Jimmy Carters to America, the scoop could still survive as the DPRK and Cuba are alive.

    And Gakha saved as many Czechs as he could. Alas, not everyone was saved, not all. He made some terrible mistakes, for example, he signed racial laws.
    Quote: Olgovich
    Aerobatics-save people without casualties and battles!

    Firstly, without casualties and battles - this is about 25 thousand killed and wounded and about 500 thousand prisoners of war (half of them are civilians, yes, the USSR managed to take civilian prisoners of war). Some of them did not survive the Soviet nobility.

    Yes, by the way, all these were Poles. Not a single German, from whom they so brilliantly defended, suffered, as far as is known.

    Quote: Olgovich
    Name at least one reason for the non-military NOT occupation of all Poland by Hitler in the absence of the Pact. WHAT are they afraid of

    A separate attraction of the Soviet Union’s inner world is Ribbentrop’s visit to Moscow. It turns out that Hitler did not care at all about the position of the USSR, but he took it and presented it to Comrade. To Stalin, not only half of Poland, which could be devoured by himself, the libershraum, what else is there. He also surrendered the USSR to the Baltic States, launched the Red Army directly to the border of East Prussia, allowed, so to speak, to nip Prussia with a Bolshevik door, sorry for the vulgarity. We can repeat the year 1914, Hitler apparently told Ribbentrop before he left for Moscow.

    And all this from pure charity, I repeat. After all, if Stalin had refused this offer, the Wehrmacht, it turns out, would have stood by Minsk already then.

    And these people are saying something there against Hitler the peacemaker.
  • Liam
    Liam 10 June 2020 20: 53
    -1
    Quote: Octopus
    For Stalin

    It seems there were no troubles with Afghanistan
    1. Octopus
      Octopus 10 June 2020 22: 03
      +1
      )))
      I also thought so, and it was not clear to me. Comrade Stalin got to Spain, and Afghanistan offended.

      No, I didn’t offend. Afghanistan was the first.

      https://topwar.ru/170852-obstojatelstva-sovershenija-sovetskogo-rejda-na-severe-afganistana-v-1929-g.html
      1. Liam
        Liam 10 June 2020 23: 13
        -1
        Yeah .. our shoot everywhere ripened
  • Dr. Frankenstucker
    Dr. Frankenstucker 10 June 2020 11: 37
    +2
    Ehm ... How is Mayakovsky -
    "Do you love NEP?
    I love it when it's not ridiculous "

    The same is with crypto history - the fantasies of alternative artists are becoming more widespread.
    Skororokhov started writing the plot for Call of Duty - Another WWII?
  • Dr. Frankenstucker
    Dr. Frankenstucker 10 June 2020 11: 46
    0
    The landing operation against this country could be carried out only in the wildest dreams.

    English Channel, you see ...


    Landing on the Island was theoretically quite feasible.
  • sergo1914
    sergo1914 10 June 2020 11: 55
    +5
    Article - how to put the iron in the refrigerator and see who is who.
  • Knell wardenheart
    Knell wardenheart 10 June 2020 11: 58
    +3
    The German bourgeoisie could not stand the USSR, the German aristocracy could not stand the USSR, Stalin and Co. did not greatly respect the German communists (in general) for their spinelessness, after BB1 we shook everyone's nerves in Europe with our communism - at the time before BB2 an alliance with us many would say so "not understood". The Germans did not crave a compromise or take into account other people's interests - Japan was far away and it was possible to share the world with them, Italy was weak and close by - it was also possible to temporarily "share" with them, but the USSR was huge and greedy, and wanted mostly the same territories as the Germans. An uncomfortable situevina arose - the USSR wants eastern Europe, Italy wants the north of Africa - probably the Germans would have to be satisfied with the Scandinavian countries and Greenland :-)
    I ponder further - an alliance with Japan in the USSR in ANYONE would have been completely incomprehensible to the Asian Communists and Mongolian Communists to the heap. At the time of BB2, there were territorial "misunderstandings" between Japan and the USSR, such as South Sakhalin. So, on the surface, such an alliance would not have been appreciated by the huge masses of people both in the USSR and in the Comintern.

    I could continue, but I don't see the point - Nazism and communism were on different sides of the spectrum, they could not be harnessed into one cart, their propagandists said completely different things, fiercely competed for the electorate, looked at the "workers" of third countries differently, etc. etc. Union would not exist, it is absolutely impossible.
  • BAI
    BAI 10 June 2020 12: 44
    0
    1. With Hitler, negotiations were impossible for one simple reason - he came to power with the slogan "The living space of Germany is in the East." He was originally imprisoned for the war with the USSR.
    2.
    Immediately, we note the most important thing - even with so many people, tanks, guns, mortars, nothing can be done with Britain. The landing operation against this country could be carried out only in the wildest dreams.

    With the combined resources of the USSR and Germany, the outcome of the air battle for England could be different. And there the fate of the British fleet would be in great question.
    3. The supply of England could go only from the North-West - everything else is near the German-controlled shores. The mine war and submarines (which in the union with the USSR could have been built much more), concentrated in one direction, have not been canceled.
    In general, if this is an alternative hunt, the outcome of the war could be completely different if Hitler did not adhere to the theory of racial superiority, but went to create friendly states in the occupied territories of the USSR that would gladly enter into an alliance with Hitler and put up him for war and material and human resources. As we recall, at first the population of the occupied territories was quite friendly with Hitler (ALL (or almost all) partisan detachments created by the NKVD were given to the Nazis by the local population), and only then figured out what was happening.
    1. Octopus
      Octopus 10 June 2020 12: 56
      0
      Quote: BAI
      the outcome of the war could be very different

      Yes, the altpositive for the Germans is quite a lot. Hitler made many mistakes and had enough power to prevent them (unlike, say, the governments of France).

      However, all options with a smarter Hitler without the abolition of WWII do not begin with an occupation policy in the USSR, but with the withdrawal of Britain from the war, and by all means - the United States. By washing or skating, this problem was necessary to solve in the 40th year.
  • Doctor
    Doctor 10 June 2020 13: 02
    0
    There was no need for an alternative, it was Hitler who proposed what Stalin wanted.

    ALL Eurasia and part of Africa would belong to the countries of the Axis Berlin - Moscow - Tokyo.
  • Kostadinov
    Kostadinov 10 June 2020 15: 26
    +1
    1. The union of Germany and the USSR was possible only with the victory of the Communist Party of Germany. Stalin and Telman could change the world together.
    2. Not only the union but also the peaceful coexistence of Russian and German Nazis is impossible in principle.
    3. The neutrality and peaceful coexistence (not union) of the USSR and Nazi Germany was quite possible and mutually beneficial for the two countries. Fascism (Nazism) and socialism can coexist peacefully (for example, Italy and the USSR). The war between the USSR and the Third Reich beat unbecoming for the USSR and catastrophic for the Reich. At the same time, for the USSR, the defeat and surrender of the Reich and of England were not ideal.
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 10 June 2020 15: 30
    +7
    Well, normal article, I giggled. smile
    For a long time already in VO, the need has been ripening along with the section "History" to introduce the section "Alternative history" and now, when Skomorokhov has joined the creation of "alternatives", perhaps such a prospect will be successfully implemented.
    Imagine the opportunity to seriously discuss, for example, the reality in which Alexander Bogomolets did invent the elixir of eternal youth - we would now live under Stalin!
    Or even cooler - the Grand Duke Nikolai Alexandrovich Romanov as a child imperceptibly replaced by Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov ... No revolutions for you, no world wars.
    Or maybe this: Peter the Great got a good tutor at the court, and Alexey Petrovich grew up completely loyal to his father and supported him in all endeavors.
    Well, and most probably, a joyful picture: Mikhail Gorbachev, arrested and convicted of treason, writes a petition for clemency addressed to the Secretary General of the CPSU Central Committee Grigory Romanov.
    I solemnly promise that I will regularly enter and leave comments in such a necessary site section.
    1. Tuzik
      Tuzik 10 June 2020 16: 46
      0
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      For a long time already on VO there is a need to introduce the section "Alternative history" along with the section "History"

      I fully support. It would be very interesting
    2. Dr. Frankenstucker
      Dr. Frankenstucker 10 June 2020 20: 45
      +1
      Where is the line beyond which AI ends and dense nonsense begins? )))
  • Kwas
    Kwas 10 June 2020 16: 40
    +2
    The triumph of Nazism in any country means an external or internal (usually at the same time) terrorist and extremely brutal war against the various "subhuman", "half-blood" and "inferior" different there. Which, ultimately, always leads to the defeat of the “chosen nation”, because for some reason it never has enough strong allies. Affects all former and future Nazis.
    1. Dr. Frankenstucker
      Dr. Frankenstucker 10 June 2020 22: 03
      +1
      Nazism, my dear, does not begin with some "terrorist and extremely brutal wars against various there ..." (c). This is a consequence. And by the way, it is not obligatory at all. Nazism begins with declarations of exclusivity. And this is the unshakable bond of surrogate patriotism. And at the same time - a powerful driver. To get up off your knees. Without humiliation of Germany, there would be no 25 points of the NSDAP, racial paranoia and the declaration of Jews as the main enemies of the nation. Populism, the image of the enemy and belief in exclusivity - no associations?
  • Kwas
    Kwas 10 June 2020 16: 47
    +2
    And purely theoretically, even Germany alone could carry out a landing in England. All that was needed was to concentrate several hundred trained torpedo bombers (with cover) over the English Channel. Preliminarily regularly launching tankers going to England to the bottom. A matter of about one year.
    1. Tuzik
      Tuzik 10 June 2020 17: 04
      -1
      What's the point? Would have suffered heavy losses, would have had to keep troops there. Churchill would go to the USA or another part of Great Britain with his lads and continue the war.
      1. Kwas
        Kwas 10 June 2020 20: 46
        +1
        The sense would be great. First of all, where would the bomb carriers fly to Germany from then? Then, they would receive all of British industry, naval bases, airfields, probably part of the fleet. And it is very likely that all this taken together could become the basis for a peace treaty in favor of Germany. Fighting across the ocean is very problematic. But as I said, this is all theory, on the topic "could be done." It is not known how the international situation would have developed; this factor would have become global. US entry into the war would be questionable. What would have been the positions of the USSR and Japan is also unclear.
        1. Tuzik
          Tuzik 10 June 2020 21: 17
          +1
          While the USSR was formidable on the continent, it wasn’t impossible to risk your army, otherwise Stalin could swallow them while they lick their wounds on the islands. This was understood by Hitler and Churchill and Roosevelt. They would have promised Stalin some goodies, if sho. So, that there was no peace agreement in favor of Germany. The corporal’s chance was only if he could withdraw the USSR from the game. It was the same with Napoleon.
      2. Dr. Frankenstucker
        Dr. Frankenstucker 10 June 2020 20: 58
        0
        Quote: Tuzik
        And what's the use?

        no, it's not about "sense" - it is clear that the Island is a colonial empire, and even with the loss of the metropolis, it can transfer its state institutions to the colonies or union territories and poke around there, as, say, Holland did. Although, of course, the resonance would have been great.
        It's about the theoretical possibility of landing. And if the Reich had not allowed Dynamo to take place and would have buried the expeditionary force and the scum of the French army in the beaches of Dunkirk ....
        1. Tuzik
          Tuzik 10 June 2020 21: 21
          0
          Quote: Dr. Frankenshtuzer
          It's about the theoretical possibility of landing

          If they really wanted to, they could of course, in the 40th.
          1. Dr. Frankenstucker
            Dr. Frankenstucker 10 June 2020 21: 40
            0
            could. What did Churchill say - would there be only 20 thousand fighters, 200 machine guns and 50 tanks? )))
            In addition, the Fuhrer still did not have a phobia about large-scale amphibious operations, which appeared after Crete. Falshirmagers, of course, would have been sacrificed, they would have dung Kent, but the Wehrmacht would have succeeded in London. It would be a "goal of prestige", as a result of which half the team died)
  • Alf
    Alf 10 June 2020 20: 25
    0
    [quoteThe UK fleet consisted of 15 battleships, 15 heavy and 49 light cruisers, 158 destroyers and 68 submarines. And 6 aircraft carriers.] [/ Quote]
    And did he really sit all in the metropolis? Yes, and the fleet against the coast is somehow not very. Recall how bad Royal Navi was near Crete? And where the whole war was the formidable Grand Fleet, if you recall the islands of Guernsey and Guernsey ...
    1. Alf
      Alf 10 June 2020 21: 01
      0
      Quote: Alf
      Recall how bad Royal Navi was near Crete?

      There, the Luftwaffe quickly and very clearly explained to the sailors of the Grand Fleet that the fleet off the coast without its "umbrella" turns into a whipping boy.
    2. Kwas
      Kwas 10 June 2020 21: 29
      +2
      By the way, explain why everyone thinks that there were 15 battleships in Britain? The battlecruisers were clearly no weaker than many of them, especially Hood. And then Hood, 2 Ripals, 5 King, 2 Nelson, 8 Queen Elizabeth-Barham, total 18.
      1. Alf
        Alf 10 June 2020 21: 43
        0
        Quote: Kwas
        The battlecruisers were clearly no weaker than many of them, especially Hood. And then Hood, 2 Ripals, 5 King, 2 Nelson, 8 Queen Elizabeth-Barham, total 18.

        Remember the airborne defense of these ships. One laugh.
        Hood.
        4 102-mm guns with a barrel length of 45 calibers of the QF.Mk.V specimen in the Mk.III.HA specimen installations, an elevation angle of 80 °. Mounted on guns model Mk.IV. Manual loading and guidance guns with a rate of 9-12 rounds per minute, reach at a height of 8700 meters. Ammunition 200 shells per barrel. 2 47 mm Hotchkiss salute guns with an ammunition load of 64 rounds per barrel. (dismantled in 1939)

        Ripals.
        8 universal 102 mm guns: of which 4 Mk.IX guns were mounted on single Mk.I and Mk.II carriages — two on the roofs of aircraft hangars on the sides of the second chimney and two on specially removed sponsons on the deck of the tank. 4 other guns XV "mounted on two paired units of universal fire type" Mk.XVII ". They were placed on special platforms of the aft superstructure, on the sides of the main mast. 2 8-barrel “Pom-Pom Mk.VI” installations were placed on special platforms of the conning platform (on-board), in the same place but higher (on the signal deck), 2 4-barrel “Mk.II” carriages were installed from 12,7, XNUMX mm machine guns "Mk.III".

        King George.

        Nelson and Queen Elizabeth are not ice either.
        Here the German pilots of the silhouettes of ships on their Stucks and Yu-88 would draw ...
        1. Kwas
          Kwas 10 June 2020 21: 50
          +1
          Quote: Alf
          Nelson and Queen Elizabeth are not ice either.

          Well then, maybe not to count them? And the Italian "Cavours", and even about the American "Arkansas" even ashamed to speak. Here it is better to decide on the classes "Battleships and Battlecruisers", as actually stipulated in the Washington agreements.
          1. Alf
            Alf 10 June 2020 22: 01
            0
            Quote: Kwas
            Quote: Alf
            Nelson and Queen Elizabeth are not ice either.

            Well then, maybe not to count them? And the Italian "Cavours", and even about the American "Arkansas" even ashamed to speak. Here it is better to decide on the classes "Battleships and Battlecruisers", as actually stipulated in the Washington agreements.

            What difference does it make, how to count them, even call them tugboats. I’m saying that nothing could have been done by LK and LK to resist the landing of the Germans in Britain with such dead air defense, apart from increasing their losses.
            1. Kwas
              Kwas 10 June 2020 22: 07
              +3
              That is yes. But by the way, with Hood’s air defense, you made a very small mistake. In 1939, instead of two (four) 102-mm anti-aircraft guns
              sample Mk.V in the middle of the ship installed four
              paired installations of the same caliber of the Mk.XVI sample
              (two on board). Thus, anti-aircraft weapons
              the ship rose to fourteen 102-mm guns in six
              single and four twin units. Number
              trunks of 12,7 mm machine guns rose to 20 in five
              four-barrel installations.
              1. Alf
                Alf 10 June 2020 22: 31
                +1
                Quote: Kwas
                Thus, anti-aircraft weapons
                the ship rose to fourteen 102 mm

                Yes, it has increased. But WHAT was this anti-aircraft gun ..
                HAND DRIVE GUIDANCE.

                As a versatile person, not bad, as an air defense gun outdated.
            2. Octopus
              Octopus 11 June 2020 05: 51
              +4
              Quote: Alf
              nothing could have been done by LK and LK to resist the German landing in Britain with such dead air defense, except to increase their losses.

              Let me remind you that the ships mobilized to Dunkirk had no air defense at all. And when the ShiG was breached through the English Channel, air defense did not solve. In this context, the air defense is engaged in the RAF. And, I remind you, in reality, the RAF provided this malware.
      2. Octopus
        Octopus 11 June 2020 05: 47
        +2
        In Britain, under the conditions of 2nd London, there were 15 LK and LKR. (5 quin, 5 P-series, 3 LCR, 2 Nelson). During the war, their number was plus or minus the same.
        - Royal Oak + KD5 + PoU - Hood + DoU - Burham - 2 in Asia + 2 other KD5.

        Total from 13 to 16 ships, excluding repairs, an explosion in Alexandria and all that.
  • Grim Reaper
    Grim Reaper 10 June 2020 20: 54
    +2
    Novel. Thanks. An extremely interesting article. I've also been thinking about the genre of "alternate history" for many years. Why did Hitler flop on the USSR with dactyl? He didn’t understand very well that these were resources, people and money. Isn’t it easier to come to an agreement with Stalin: you give us farmland and resources, we’ll give you a “gloomy genius” and field Europeans. Is it real? Quite. And the planet would be shattered according to the principle: "the left is to us, the right to them, and the rest to the Chinese. (C)" Do not hesitate, the ambition would be sawed and would not help anyone if the USSR and Germany came out together. The question is: why didn't this happen? The biggest mystery .......
    1. Alf
      Alf 10 June 2020 22: 32
      +1
      Quote: Grim Reaper
      Question: why didn’t this happen?

      Because IVF, too, Mine Kampf read, especially about the lands in the East.
  • Revolver
    Revolver 11 June 2020 03: 26
    0
    And one more thing: as the whole history of the XNUMXth and XNUMXst centuries has shown, we never knew how to choose allies and friends for ourselves.

    In the twentieth century, they did not have to choose, they made friends with whom it would turn out against a common enemy, and then also with those who could not avoid friendly embraces, if someone did not understand, then this is about the Warsaw Pact. And they were friends "on a leftover principle" - with whom the West did not want to do business, like the Palestinians or Irish Republicans, they had to bow to Moscow. Well, all sorts of non-white, ready to promise anything for food and weapons. Non-capitalist path of development? Yes, with our pleasure, all the same, from the primitive communal order to capitalism or socialism as before China in a certain position, and by the time the debts are paid either the donkey will die or the emir will die.
    After the collapse of the USSR, of course, it was possible to build normal relations with the West, but here Bill Clinton's personal affairs got in. In order to remove the intimate details of what and where he shoved the trainees, and how he left samples of his DNA on their dresses, from the front pages of the newspapers, he needed a small victorious war. Yugoslavia is the best candidate for whipping boys. Friend Boris? And that friend Boris, swallows. Boris swallowed. It’s only that Russia has understood what the Clinton assurances of friendship and perfect respect are worth. Moreover, friend Boris didn’t either dismiss or vice versa from unusual sobriety announced his resignation, and those who came after him swallowed so easily.
    And now, alas, it is not clear how to glue broken pots. True, at some point it may become clear that the interests of Beijing do not coincide with the interests of Moscow, and it would be more expensive to be friends with China against the United States, i.e. most of the benefits are raked by China, and most of the risks are left to Russia. In general, if anything can ever bring Russia closer to the West, it is a friendship either against China or against radical Islamism. Alas and ah, states do not know how to make friends not against someone, but for a clean idea such as peace and social progress throughout the world.
  • Kostadinov
    Kostadinov 11 June 2020 11: 54
    0
    Quote: Grim Reaper
    Novel. Thanks. An extremely interesting article. I've also been thinking about the genre of "alternate history" for many years. Why did Hitler flop on the USSR with dactyl? He didn’t understand very well that these were resources, people and money. Isn’t it easier to come to an agreement with Stalin: you give us farmland and resources, we’ll give you a “gloomy genius” and field Europeans. Is it real? Quite. And the planet would be shattered according to the principle: "the left is to us, the right to them, and the rest to the Chinese. (C)" Do not hesitate, the ambition would be sawed and would not help anyone if the USSR and Germany came out together. The question is: why didn't this happen? The biggest mystery .......

    There is no mystery. If Hitler could see the red banner over the Reichstag in 1945, then he certainly agreed to fight with Stalin. He could beat, beat the last chance to do it, and after the attack on the USSR, until the summer of 1943. In the end, Gebels fed on the USSR on April 30, 1945, when it was already hopelessly late. With this, Hitler could agree not on an "alliance" with the USSR to divide the world, but on the non-aggression and neutrality of the USSR in the war, as Japan did.
    Hitler’s problem is not only in his ideology (Mussolini did not think of a war and quite successfully negotiated with the USSR), but in a very gross error in assessing military and economic potential and, as a consequence, an attack on the USSR. For the head of state, this is the most serious crime.
  • Yury Siritsky
    Yury Siritsky 11 June 2020 13: 04
    0
    The author laments that the USSR did not choose Germany as an ally.
  • Igor Bezbogov
    Igor Bezbogov 11 June 2020 20: 48
    0
    I have one question for the author: if, hypothetically, the USSR had entered into a military alliance with Germany against England, on which side would the United States be?
  • ser56
    ser56 11 June 2020 23: 19
    0
    Another nonsense of the author ... negative
  • RomanRoman
    RomanRoman 13 June 2020 13: 43
    0
    I read the name and it seemed interesting to me. He tortured himself by reading an article. Sheer nonsense, notions, analysis based on these notions, and manipulations on parts of really real numbers. The author deliberately chose everything except the main one, for which the Molotov-Ribentrop Pact was signed. What is the article about? What is the name of this? I basically do not touch the photo. Where are the conclusions, or at least hints of them?
    As a person writing, I put the author not even a deuce, but a minus. Local authors do not particularly surprise me, but this one surpassed the wildest assumptions. Bad, sorry.
  • And Makarov
    And Makarov 14 June 2020 08: 37
    +1
    Interesting point of view what
  • Kuz
    Kuz 14 June 2020 08: 51
    -1
    Well, what could have happened.
  • Koval Sergey
    Koval Sergey 14 June 2020 11: 34
    +1
    The author does not have fantasies ...
  • NordUral
    NordUral 22 August 2020 21: 57
    -1
    Hmm, this alternative story suits me perfectly. And most of all - an alliance (temporary or permanent for later), first of all, the USSR and Germany (I myself am Russian with a German in half, my mother is Vologda from Veliky Ustyug, and my father is a German from the Volga region). Such an alliance, it seems to me, would be long-term if the first component could be eradicated from German National Socialism little by little.
    It would have been more difficult with Imperial Japan, but even here I do not exclude a strong friendly alliance.
    It is a pity that Fate decreed otherwise and the world is now completely ruled by the bloodthirsty Anglo-Saxon elite, not the peoples, I note.
    And what is interesting - in this situation, the world hegemon - the United States - would not have arisen, which significantly changed History.