Military Review

But Russia not only fought with the Polovtsy: from the history of Russian-Polovtsian relations

117

In the centuries-old stories The confrontations between Russia and the Steppe occupy a special place in the long, intricate and extremely contradictory relations of our ancestors with the nomadic people who entered the domestic chronicles under the name of Polovtsy. Russian princes not only fought with them. There were periods when not only they fought, but they were related, and even went out and went on joint campaigns against, as they say today, “third parties”. With whom and when did Rus and Polovtsy fight shoulder to shoulder?


First of all, it is worth remembering that the appearance of this tribe in the Russian territory chronicles refer to 1055. Then everything worked out: Pereyaslav Prince Vsevolod Yaroslavovich and Polovtsian Khan Bogush dispersed peacefully, patting each other on the shoulders and even exchanging "souvenirs." Problems with the aliens began a little later and very quickly took on a serious scale - at first the same Vsevolod suffered a defeat from them, and his princedom became an object of plunder, and already in 1068 the Polovtsian hordes defeated the combined army of the sons of Yaroslav the Wise on the Alta River.

It was after this tragic event that the steppe inhabitants, quite simply, became insolent to the limit and began to go to the Russian lands for production and full regularly. As a rule, these raids were quite successful: the Polovtsy warriors were very good, and follow the nomads, like the wind coming from the steppe and dissolving in it with the loot.

Moreover, after the death of Yaroslav the Wise, with the beginning of a series of princely feuds that engulfed Russia, the Polovtsy began to play the role of mercenary detachments, which some candidates for power from among the Yaroslavichi and their relatives drew into the ranks of their troops. The dubious glory of primacy in this matter is attributed to Oleg Svyatoslavich, who decided, while his uncles Izyaslav, Svyatoslav and Vsevolod share the principalities, to snatch a piece of power for themselves. Later it turned into a normal and almost universally accepted practice - it was with the military help of the Polovtsy that the relatives expelled Izyaslav Vladimirovich from Murom, and Vladimir Monomakh from Chernigov.

It was this prince who later became the one who managed to give a shortcut to the presumptuous and too much-tasted more than peculiar participation of nomads in Russian politics. As a rule, the price for engaging them in military operations was the right to bring the captured cities to fire and sword, and the Polovtsian khans were already looking at our lands with very specific interest - for resettlement. The end to such plans and generally free incursions into Russia was laid by the combined actions of the princes undertaken at the initiative of Monomakh, who switched from passive attempts to repel raids to active defense. That is, to campaigns in the Polovtsian steppes and battles against the enemy in nomadic camps.

When such expeditions were undertaken in an organized and thoughtful manner, they were invariably crowned with success. What ended the attempts of self-initiative, narrates the well-known to all of us, "The Word of Igor's Campaign." However, the events described in this work date back much later, when the nomads driven by Vladimir after his death perked up and again began to torment Russia with their raids. It didn’t even help that by this time many of her princely families had blood ties with the Polovtsy - the two sons of Monomakh were married to the steppe “princesses”, daughters and granddaughters of the khans. There were other similar precedents.

There are also cases known in history when the Polovtsy were allies of the Russian princes not in internal "showdowns", but in repelling external aggression. The most striking among them can be considered the battle on the Vagra river in the vicinity of Peremyshl, in which the warriors of the grandson of Yaroslav the Wise David Igorevich shoulder to shoulder with the soldiers of the Polovtsian Khan Bonyak defeated the army of the Hungarian King Kalman I Knizhnik many times superior to them. At the same time, a good ingenuity and coherence of different detachments was shown: fifty Polovtsy, showering the Hungarians with arrows, drove them to such a fury that they rushed to pursue the enemy headlong, it was worth starting a pre-planned “retreat”. Ultimately, this maneuver led the royal warriors into an ambush lurking in a narrow gorge, where numerical superiority no longer played any role. The losses of the Hungarian “expeditionary force” in the battle, which resulted in mass exodus and massacre, were terrible and for a long time discouraged going to Russia.

According to many scholars, it was the fairly close military-political union of the Polovtsy and some Russian princes that had formed by the XNUMXth century that led the latter to the shores of Kalka, in which they, to this day not encountering the Mongol conquerors moving from the East, entered into to support their Polovtsian associates and relatives. By virtue of this, some even try to blame the Polovtsy for the ensuing enemy invasion. It is rather doubtful: it is unlikely that the Batu hordes would have bypassed the richest lands of Russia that lay in their way. However, this is a completely different story. The main thing is that the Russian people survived the confrontation with the Golden Horde. But the Polovtsian - no ... Although the Polovtsian assimilation is also a separate issue.
Author:
Photos used:
Wikipedia / Picture of Vasnetsov V. M. "After the Battle of Igor Svyatoslavich with the Polovtsy"
117 comments
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  1. Aaron Zawi
    Aaron Zawi 8 June 2020 09: 00 New
    +2
    Polovtsy migrated mainly from the Volga region to the North-East. Today, Kazakhs are considered the heirs of the Kipchaks.
    A smaller part migrated to Hungary and disappeared among the Hungarians.
    1. evgeniy.105
      evgeniy.105 9 June 2020 10: 38 New
      +4
      Kazakhs, do not understand who. The Bolsheviks gathered all the steppe tramps in one heap, and called them Kazakhs. Great-grandmother (born in 1892) called them Kyrgyz.
      1. Aaron Zawi
        Aaron Zawi 9 June 2020 12: 50 New
        0
        Quote: evgeniy.105
        Kazakhs, do not understand who. The Bolsheviks gathered all the steppe tramps in one heap, and called them Kazakhs. Great-grandmother (born in 1892) called them Kyrgyz.

        Shame on you?
        1. +5
          +5 10 June 2020 09: 44 New
          +3
          Should he be ashamed of the Bolsheviks or whom?
          There were no Kazakhs in the Republic of Ingushetia ... the Kyrgyz and the Kyrgyz-Kaisaki beat ...
          1. Aaron Zawi
            Aaron Zawi 10 June 2020 14: 55 New
            0
            Quote: 5-9
            Should he be ashamed of the Bolsheviks or whom?
            There were no Kazakhs in the Republic of Ingushetia ... the Kyrgyz and the Kyrgyz-Kaisaki beat ...

            And what does RI have to do with it? What did the Kazakhs call themselves?
            1. +5
              +5 10 June 2020 15: 36 New
              +1
              No way ... they were not as a single nationality .... go and there were some zhuzes and tribal names .... you still ask about Georgians or Dagestanis .... or Russians
  2. siberalt
    siberalt 8 June 2020 09: 06 New
    -7
    As long as someone has the opportunity to live from writing a story to order (in other words, "burned at the stake") - who will refuse it.
    The story we are hiding in is pseudoscience of political prostitutes. Somehow, physics cannot be based solely on the laws of Ohm or Newton.
    1. Insurgent
      Insurgent 8 June 2020 09: 16 New
      -1
      Quote: siberalt
      As long as someone has the opportunity to live from writing a story to order (in other words, "burned at the stake") - who will refuse it.
      The story we are hiding in is pseudoscience of political prostitutes. Somehow, physics cannot be based solely on the laws of Ohm or Newton.

      It is written "so, why", or does it imply a message to some specific source, distorted historical event, the author?
  3. Gardamir
    Gardamir 8 June 2020 09: 25 New
    -7
    And what is Russia? All this "Fomenkovism" has long been boring.
    Kievan Rus was invented in the 19th century.
    Polovtsy did not go to Veliky Novgorod.
    1. KVU-NSVD
      KVU-NSVD 8 June 2020 09: 42 New
      +5
      Quote: Gardamir
      Polovtsy did not go to Veliky Novgorod.

      The navel would be torn. Batu and he did not master. Rob one areas adjacent to the steppe. and shuffling into the depths of someone else’s territory is another.
    2. novel66
      novel66 8 June 2020 09: 44 New
      -6
      about the Mongols! come on about the Mongols !!!
    3. alebor
      alebor 8 June 2020 09: 44 New
      10
      I did not understand the meaning of your wonderful comment: Polovtsy did not go to Novgorod because historians came up with Kievan Rus, or, on the contrary, historians came up with Kievan Rus because Polovtsy did not go to Novgorod?
      1. Gardamir
        Gardamir 8 June 2020 09: 49 New
        -10
        Nicely twisted. But ... The article is a consequence of Putin's speech that allegedly "we", who are we, defeated the Polovtsians.
        1. Xnumx vis
          Xnumx vis 8 June 2020 10: 21 New
          +2
          Quote: Gardamir
          Nicely twisted. But ... The article is a consequence of Putin's speech that allegedly "we", who are we, defeated the Polovtsians.

          Here is how! am I can’t eat without spitting in the direction of the current government! crying wassat Ay, Ma -La-DEC !!!
          1. Gardamir
            Gardamir 8 June 2020 10: 27 New
            +1
            Are you a troll in content? They essentially said nothing.
            1. KVU-NSVD
              KVU-NSVD 8 June 2020 10: 47 New
              +2
              Quote: Gardamir
              They essentially said nothing.

              So you Putin so dragged to the victory over the Polovtsy that even an owl on the globe was surprised.
              1. Gardamir
                Gardamir 8 June 2020 11: 08 New
                0
                What are you platoon commenting on?
                1. KVU-NSVD
                  KVU-NSVD 8 June 2020 11: 09 New
                  +3
                  Quote: Gardamir
                  What are you platoon commenting on?

                  Can’t you?
                  1. Gardamir
                    Gardamir 8 June 2020 11: 18 New
                    +4
                    Yes please. The main thing is that the case.
                    Speaking once, Mr. President said that the Russians have always won. But for some reason he was ashamed to say that the Russians beat the Germans, the French, and the British and the Americans got it. For some reason I remembered the disappeared Polovtsy with the Pechenegs. This article is a continuation of that presentation.
                    1. KVU-NSVD
                      KVU-NSVD 8 June 2020 11: 30 New
                      +2
                      Quote: Gardamir
                      . But for some reason he was ashamed to say that the Russians beat the Germans, the French, and the British and the Americans got it. For some reason I remembered the disappeared Polovtsy with the Pechenegs. This article is a continuation of that presentation.

                      This is called pulling by the ears. So you can find fault with any speeches of the President of the Russian Federation, which in fact is the purpose of your comment. To reduce all topics to the srach about Putin is a very rude and primitive tool for agitation and propaganda counteraction. Using it, you cause people to only irritate yourself and, accordingly, do not achieve your goal. Well this is the basics ...
                    2. Sergey S.
                      Sergey S. 8 June 2020 18: 57 New
                      +3
                      Quote: Gardamir
                      This article is a continuation of that presentation.

                      I really didn’t want to get involved ...
                      I am not a historian, in the sense that historians themselves love themselves ...
                      But ...
                      1. History, as a science, is one thing.
                      2. History, like stories, is another.
                      3. And yet, history is a kind of information space in which absolutely everyone lives and hourly create this very story with their lives.
                      If you remember VV Putin, then this is a person from the 3rd point. Someone in joy, the rest - in grief. And he, as a real historical person, has the right to say what he wants, including hyperbole, allegories and even surrealistic wishes and predictions.

                      As for the Polovtsians, not everything is clear with them so far.
                      On the one hand, they ousted the Pechenegs in the steppe zone of the Volga and further west, on the other, they ran into the Slavs. They rested completely spending militant ardor.
                      During the period of Kievan Rus, by the standards of that time, the Polovtsy quickly integrated into the East Slavic state. L.N. Gumilev studied in detail the ethnography of the Polovtsy. And he said that for more than 100 years in Russia there have been more than 100 military confrontations. Most of the bottom involved Polovtsy. And only at 5 Polovtsy fought against the Russian princes. In the rest, one of the Russian princes attracted Polovtsy to fight and plunder his brother and his land.
                      When the Mongols arrived, it was the Polovtsians who held them back on the eastern borders of Russia.
                      L.N. Gumilyov believed that the campaign of Jebe and Sudebey around the Caspian Sea and through the Caucasus was undertaken in order to bypass the Polovtsian steppes and plunder the White Vezha.
                      It was then that the Polovtsian khan turned to the Russian princes for help.
                      Next was Kalka ...
                      And she taught nothing to the Russian princes ...

                      The Polovtsian legacy is an elusive difference between Ukrainians and Great Russians.
                      And the first Cossacks - Don and Cossacks, adopted the lifestyle and military order of the Polovtsy.
                      1. Operator
                        Operator 8 June 2020 23: 27 New
                        0
                        The Pechenegs are ordinary nomadic parasites, which were destroyed by the nomadic parasites following them - the Polovtsy, and the last of the nomadic parasites are the Tatar-Mongols.

                        The population of the outskirts really has a larger percentage of Mongoloids - the proportion of carriers of the Mongolian haplogroup C2 in them reaches 3% versus 1% in Russians and Belarusians.
                    3. Hantengri
                      Hantengri 8 June 2020 23: 05 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Gardamir
                      Speaking once, Mr. President said that the Russians have always won.

                      item No. 1. Mr. President is a lie.
                      Offhand: The results of the hostilities of 1853-1856 and January 27, 1904 - August 23, 1905 are very difficult to call a victory, despite the unlimited heroism and courage of a horsepower.
                      And if you dig deeper, other "abysses" that are not very pleasant to the heart of a semi-literate urya-patriot may open up.
                      Quote: Gardamir
                      But for some reason, hesitated to say that the Russians beat the Germans, the French, and the British and the Americans got

                      Conscience did not allow, probably. (See item No. 1.)
                      Quote: Gardamir
                      For some reason I remembered the disappeared Polovtsy with the Pechenegs.

                      Perhaps because, since then, "A lot of water has flowed under the bridge. Nobody remembers anything anymore. And those who remembered anything were soaked long ago." (from).
                    4. ikrut
                      ikrut 9 June 2020 01: 13 New
                      +4
                      In fact, Putin partially quoted Plevako's famous speech: "Russia had to endure many troubles, many trials for its more than a thousand-year existence," Plevako said. "The Pechenegs tormented her, Polovtsy, Tatars, Poles ..." (c). It is quite normal and even generally accepted to quote famous people in this way. Putin was talking about resistance to the epidemic, and not about historical excursions. Like Plevako's speech was not about history, but about a specific criminal case of that time. This "historical passage" was just a turn of speech. Moreover, very successful (IMHO).
              2. Andy
                Andy 8 June 2020 13: 06 New
                +2
                Quote: KVU-NSVD

                So you Putin so dragged to the victory over the Polovtsy that even an owl on the globe was surprised.

                in general, the fake guarantor of the constitution itself got attached to the Polovtsi. nobody balabol pulled his tongue - where is some kind of virus, and where are the Polovtsy
                1. KVU-NSVD
                  KVU-NSVD 8 June 2020 13: 19 New
                  -2
                  Quote: Andy
                  in general, the fake guarantor of the constitution itself got attached to the Polovtsi. nobody balabol pulled his tongue - where is some kind of virus, and where are the Polovtsy

                  Clinging to these words of the President is called - "pulling an owl on the globe", "digging to the pillar", "digging like a drunk to the radio", "pulling by the ears" and so on. Apparently there are no other arguments, but only complaints about comparative turns in the vocabulary of the presidential speech. As for the "fake guarantor" - vote against, who is in the way?
                  1. Andy
                    Andy 8 June 2020 13: 23 New
                    0
                    how much do you get paid? rush to the owl to protect already the shirt with the pants is cracking. about voting - 146% ... vote do not vote - you will still get ... the result.
                    1. KVU-NSVD
                      KVU-NSVD 8 June 2020 13: 30 New
                      +3
                      Quote: Andy
                      how much do you get paid? R

                      Yes, if .. Exclusively for the sake of interest .. But ready for suggestions .. winked
                      rush to the owl to defend already a shirt with pants cracking. about voting
                      I love owls, good birds, and my pants don’t crack - my ass is hot, pricks without gigantism ..
                      vote do not vote - you still get ... the result.
                      Well don't vote request
            2. Andobor
              Andobor 8 June 2020 13: 09 New
              +5
              Quote: Gardamir
              Are you a troll in content?

              No one has canceled the information war, and here in the comments, it’s full of mercenaries.
              1. Victorio
                Victorio 8 June 2020 22: 53 New
                0
                Quote: Andobor
                Quote: Gardamir
                Are you a troll in content?

                No one has canceled the information war, and here in the comments, it’s full of mercenaries.

                ===
                what's the matter, bring them to clean water
            3. Xnumx vis
              Xnumx vis 9 June 2020 09: 00 New
              -3
              Quote: Gardamir
              Are you a troll in content? They essentially said nothing.
              And what are you going to pay? ... Or an example from my own life ...? And on the merits of the question, you understood perfectly ... hi
          2. andrew42
            andrew42 8 June 2020 18: 55 New
            +2
            30 vis, since you've seen spitting here against the "power" you adore, let's just roll the application where it should go. It is now fashionable, "patriotic".
            1. Xnumx vis
              Xnumx vis 9 June 2020 09: 03 New
              -1
              Quote: andrew42
              30 vis, since you've seen spitting here against the "power" you adore, let's just roll the application where it should go. It is now fashionable, "patriotic".

              I don’t like, didn’t like, and I’m unlikely to love any power .... And the adored fans of Stalin rolled the bells ... Well, there is a housing issue, a material one. etc
        2. fuxila
          fuxila 8 June 2020 16: 50 New
          -3
          The article is a consequence of Putin's speech that supposedly "we", who are we, defeated the Polovtsians.

          There’s a flight of fancy ... If you search well, then on the Internet you can find articles on asinization problems in the country and in the world, and then you will probably remember that Putin called for watering the terrorists in the outhouses and you can declare in righteous anger that only evil Putin propagandists and, in general, cluttering sorted corpses, a terrible crime of Putin’s regime write about the problems of transporting feces ...
    4. Revolver
      Revolver 10 June 2020 08: 24 New
      -2
      Quote: Gardamir
      Polovtsy did not go to Veliky Novgorod.

      Why for? Prince of Novgorod, Alexander Nevsky, himself laid down under them, for which he received a label for the Great reign of Vladimir (or Suzdal, something they are confused, but there is no time to look). But he had an option in alliance with Poland and the Livonian (or Teutonic - as he was then called, again I do not remember) Order to resist the Mongol-Tatars. True, the price would be conversion to Catholicism. But the Batu Orthodoxy of the Grand Duke was violet, anyhow Yasak paid and pressed other princes so as not to dare even think about rising against the yoke. So for the church, he is a missus saint, but how did he save Orthodoxy in Russia. But in fact, the same Vlasov (well, or Marshal Petain), planted Russia under the Tatars for centuries, until his great-great-great-descendant Ivan III threw off the yoke. But during this time, the Poles have bitten off the West Russian lands, which they later called Ukraine. So the Tatar yoke of Russia still hiccups Ukrainian independence, independence, and Maidan rides.
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 10 June 2020 10: 24 New
        +3
        Quote: Nagan
        But he had an option in alliance with Poland and the Livonian (or Teutonic - as he was then called, again I do not remember) Order to resist the Mongol-Tatars.

        I don’t remember which of the modern "alternatives" put forward such a theory ...
        But her followers should be reminded of the existence of another Russian prince, who, exactly, went along this path. Remind who it was? smile
        It’s only at the same time that he will have to remember what kind of help he received from Europe to fight against the Mongols and what his policy turned into for his land already with his grandchildren.
        What was the name of this prince? smile
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 10 June 2020 19: 26 New
          +3
          So tempting to ask: "Buratino"? laughing
        2. Korsar4
          Korsar4 10 June 2020 19: 34 New
          +3
          Daniil Galitsky mean?
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 10 June 2020 21: 25 New
            +4
            Sergey, do not prompt! laughing
            Of course, Daniel. But I would like the author of the commentary to announce this name himself. However, I think that in the near future we will have the opportunity to discuss this issue substantively, in relation to the articles of Artem. smile
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 10 June 2020 21: 37 New
              0
              If I don’t miss. And then it’s not easy to return to the cycle.

              I can’t resist, and I’ll use it right here - how do you feel about the version that the Nightingale the Robber was from Vyatichi? It is clear that with subsequent layering.

              Beginning I like this version.
              1. Trilobite Master
                Trilobite Master 10 June 2020 22: 10 New
                +1
                Actually, if we accept for the truth that he really was, then why not? Although it could be anything, starting from halinda (rum) and ending with Mordvin or a Pecheneg wandering into the woods. smile
                1. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 10 June 2020 22: 31 New
                  0
                  I understand how vague for us that time is, but for some reason I want to look, including the most stupendous ideas.
      2. Victorio
        Victorio 10 June 2020 11: 29 New
        0
        Quote: Nagan
        Prince of Novgorod, Alexander Nevsky, himself laid down under them, for which he received a label for the Great reign

        ===
        common practice of the time, as Russian principalities were conquered by a horde. and one of the princes received a label for a great reign.

        Quote: Nagan
        But essentially the same Vlasov (or Marshal Petain), put Russia under the Tatars for centuries,

        ===
        ??? the horde of that time was strong, there was no way to resist it, no matter how before the Nevsky, and long after
  4. Diviz
    Diviz 8 June 2020 09: 40 New
    -4
    Kiev became the Khazar Khaganate of Samarkand, the Western Karakhanid Khaganate. The Caucasus Mountains were used to transport mercenaries through the city of Tabriz.
    1. KVU-NSVD
      KVU-NSVD 8 June 2020 11: 12 New
      +4
      Quote: DiViZ
      Kiev became the Khazar Khaganate of Samarkand, the Western Karakhanid Khaganate. The Caucasus Mountains were used to transport mercenaries through the city of Tabriz.

      And can you somehow develop about Kiev, khaganats and other things? And then Chota is messy somehow.
      1. Diviz
        Diviz 8 June 2020 12: 35 New
        -4
        Internet to help. And there everyone makes a conclusion.
        1. KVU-NSVD
          KVU-NSVD 8 June 2020 13: 23 New
          +4
          Quote: DiViZ
          Internet to help. And there everyone makes a conclusion.

          I’ve assumed that Chhota was supposedly such an atvet .. laughing
          1. Diviz
            Diviz 8 June 2020 13: 43 New
            -3
            You don’t want to read the story. Then you personally have a riddle. Why in Ukraine 50% of the inhabitants are brown-eyed and in Russia 50% are gray-eyed.
            1. KVU-NSVD
              KVU-NSVD 8 June 2020 13: 51 New
              +3
              Quote: DiViZ
              Why in Ukraine 50% of the inhabitants are brown-eyed and in Russia 50% are gray-eyed

              And why ?
              1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Kote Pan Kokhanka 8 June 2020 16: 19 New
                +3
                Quote: KVU-NSVD
                Quote: DiViZ
                Why in Ukraine 50% of the inhabitants are brown-eyed and in Russia 50% are gray-eyed

                And why ?

                "You do not understand anything in sausage scraps" !!! laughing
                Based on this "opus" you can sculpt any story convenient for yourself !!! I suppose that on Diviz’s mind there’s a beautiful fairy tale about the brown-eyed heirs of the Kipchik ethnic group inhabiting the Kiev region or gray-eyed descendants of the Finno-Ugric peoples of Muscovy! Alas, the promise of eye color is all the more prosaic, 50% there and 50% are obviously unreliable, so making conclusions based on it is stupid and not historical !!!
                Regards, Kote!
                1. KVU-NSVD
                  KVU-NSVD 8 June 2020 16: 24 New
                  +1
                  And who bother with statistics on the scale of the East Slavic ethnic group with eye color?
                  1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                    Kote Pan Kokhanka 8 June 2020 20: 14 New
                    +4
                    I will surprise you! Everything is simple. The institute is knocked out by a foreign grand. Business trips are organized. Students practice interviewing respondents. Really - floor, finger, ceiling !!! It’s like “anonymous” testing of personnel about the state of the moral and psychological climate in the team and an assessment of its attitude to the bosses! Chef, what are we going to write - all hurt or hurt everything became how you came !!!
                    No medical, operational, or statistical data are known to be available. Personal data FZ-152! So, the maximum is a survey in cities with a population of over one million, 1000 respondents each!
                    And there! Gray eyes are a confirmation of the Norman theory, gray eyes are an indicator of Finno-Ugric influence on the East Slavic community, gray eyes are an Indo-European marker, I will develop any of the three on my knee. Even without literature !!!
                    For instance. Trubetskoy, among gamayuns mostly children with gray eyes and brittle linen (light brown hair) are born, which indicates the proportion of Finno-Ugric blood in the latter !!!
                    Well and further, gallop jumped !!! Moreover, the thesis I cited is real! I am a hamayun myself and was born with gray eyes and flaxen hair! The trouble is that with age they became green and curly hair fell out !!! drinks
                    Regards, Vlad! You are right everything from the evil one !!! More precisely, because of one graffiti on the walls of St. Sophia Cathedral in Kiev, where Prince Vladimir Svyatoslavovich is called the "Hagan" !!!
                    1. KVU-NSVD
                      KVU-NSVD 8 June 2020 20: 35 New
                      +2
                      Dear Vladislav, in fact, I have an answer to the opponent's "riddle" about brown and blue eyes. He's the simplest. The further north, the lighter a person's eyes, and brown eyes predominate (oh, those dark eyes, they ruined me ..) on the territory of Little Russia among the Slavs from the fact that the steppe people there at one time more women and girls spoiled .. well, purely due to proximity to steppe ..
                      1. Diviz
                        Diviz 9 June 2020 13: 16 New
                        0
                        You have already begun to think. It remains only to change the polarity.
                      2. KVU-NSVD
                        KVU-NSVD 9 June 2020 13: 41 New
                        0
                        Quote: DiViZ
                        You have already begun to think.

                        Yes, I did not stop.
              2. Diviz
                Diviz 9 June 2020 08: 53 New
                -2
                And what do you react like this is statistics information in Germany 75% and in Norway 90% blue-eyed. In Africa, 90% of brown-eyed live.
                1. KVU-NSVD
                  KVU-NSVD 9 June 2020 13: 40 New
                  0
                  Yes, I don’t argue, the research performer, the method of collecting information, the method of sorting and processing data, and sampling are just interesting. Statistics thing is subtle and prone to prostitution in favor of the customer, and therefore interested.
          2. Keyser soze
            Keyser soze 8 June 2020 20: 20 New
            +3
            Why in Ukraine 50% of the inhabitants are brown-eyed and in Russia 50% are gray-eyed.


            God ..... I’m sure that there is probably a tone of genetic research, and not pseudo-chemical geneticists, but the Russian Academy of Sciences, in which the eye color and haplogroups are explained in detail. And then the Turkic-Turkic apologists from each hole blinded ...
  • knn54
    knn54 8 June 2020 09: 48 New
    +7
    The Russian princes themselves "invited" the Polovtsians as a military force in internecine confrontations. The latter were not against the support in the "showdown" of some or other princes, they did not allow someone to strengthen so much as to subjugate the rest.
    PS Part of the Kipchaks left for the North Caucasus, where they "took part" in the formation of the Kumyk, Karachai and Balkarian ethnic groups.
    Therefore, for example, Kabardians and Circassians consider the Balkars and Karachays (respectively) to be newcomers.
    1. Andrey Krasnoyarsky
      Andrey Krasnoyarsky 9 June 2020 08: 59 New
      0
      And later, Russian princes in the same way invited to resolve the internecine disputes of the Tatars. And they also did not deny themselves pleasure. The Dudenev army of 1293, which was worse in destructiveness than the Batyev invasion, took place on the initiative of a coalition of Russian princes, who invited the Tatars to allow another squabble between the heirs of Alexander Nevsky.
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 9 June 2020 12: 07 New
        0
        Quote: Andrey Krasnoyarsky
        Dudenev's army

        It was a consequence of civil strife primarily in the steppe itself.
  • KVU-NSVD
    KVU-NSVD 8 June 2020 09: 53 New
    +3
    The end to such plans and generally free incursions into Russia was laid by the combined actions of the princes undertaken at the initiative of Monomakh, who switched from passive attempts to repel raids to active defense. That is, to campaigns in the Polovtsian steppes and battles against the enemy in nomadic camps.

    yeah .. Monomakh thinned them out notably, the steppe was empty for many years ... Men to heaven, herds and women with kids to the markets, cattle under a knife, to burn nomads. . How was it otherwise? It is a pity that Monomakh was the last truly Grand Prince of pre-Igov Rus. Should Batu Khan appear in Russia during his undivided rule, it is not a fact that his legs would have been carried away.
    1. KCA
      KCA 8 June 2020 10: 33 New
      0
      Everything is not even with the yoke, for example, my neighbor, a historian, said that Alexander Nevsky was a twin of the Horde Khan, because saved him from drowning in the river, for the nomads the entrance to the river was taboo, they didn’t know how to swim, and now there is news that the nomads participated in the Ice Slaughter, even some evidence leads
      1. KVU-NSVD
        KVU-NSVD 8 June 2020 10: 43 New
        +3
        Quote: KCA
        for nomads, the entrance to the river was taboo, they didn’t know how to swim,

        But the rivers at the same time somehow forced.
        Quote: KCA
        Alexander Nevsky was a twin of the Khan of the Horde,
        Why not, Nevsky’s relations with the Horde were very close
        Yes, and now there is news that the nomads participated in the Battle of the Ice, even some evidence leads
        Here they can’t decide on the place ... Although purely theoretically it’s completely, but again everything rests on the evidence.
        1. KCA
          KCA 8 June 2020 10: 47 New
          +2
          I’m not a historian myself, but I think that the rivers were crossed on horseback, but they didn’t enter on foot, and I don’t exclude all kinds of rafts
          1. KVU-NSVD
            KVU-NSVD 8 June 2020 10: 58 New
            +5
            Quote: KCA
            but I think that the rivers crossed the horses

            You can’t swim over the river while sitting on a horse (or rather, don’t do it so that the horse isn’t tired, and sitting on a horse you’ll get wet on one of the tonsils), you need to swim nearby and hold on to the bridle. You also don’t have many rafts in the steppe regions, but there are a lot of rafts, and not so much for riders as for army convoys and military-engineering equipment ... and riders are clearly not in full armor for crossing - they are also rafts for heavy equipment needed.
            1. KCA
              KCA 8 June 2020 11: 06 New
              +1
              Well, not without a sudden cry, the Agla climbed, obviously preparing for more than one month, or maybe several years, and the wars were not like in World War I and 1, a million on the one hand, a million on the other, a hundred on each side is already the greatest battle , or not battle, but standing
          2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 8 June 2020 20: 16 New
            +1
            Quote: KCA
            I’m not a historian myself, but I think that the rivers were crossed on horseback, but they didn’t enter on foot, and I don’t exclude all kinds of rafts

            The Tale of Bygone Years - Cue - ferryman !!! By the way, Batu smashed the Vladimir-Suzdal land in the winter.
        2. ee2100
          ee2100 8 June 2020 18: 11 New
          -4
          Do you truly believe that everything that is written about in the annals of the so-called Is the ice battle true?
          1. KVU-NSVD
            KVU-NSVD 8 June 2020 18: 26 New
            +2
            Quote: ee2100
            Do you truly believe that everything that is written about in the annals of the so-called Is the ice battle true?

            What are you doing?
            1. ee2100
              ee2100 8 June 2020 18: 30 New
              -3
              Here they can’t determine the place ... to the fact that the battle site was in the area of ​​the modern city of Tartu.
              1. KVU-NSVD
                KVU-NSVD 8 June 2020 18: 33 New
                +3
                There are many versions .. The main thing. what it was and its result. About the Battle of Kulikovo there are also enough versions .. So what?
                1. ee2100
                  ee2100 8 June 2020 18: 39 New
                  -2
                  The result is known. But the interpretation, PR is, something beyond.
                2. Victorio
                  Victorio 10 June 2020 11: 32 New
                  0
                  Quote: KVU-NSVD
                  There are many versions .. The main thing. what it was and his result . About the Battle of Kulikovo there are also enough versions .. So what?

                  ===
                  and even more importantly, probably, the consequences of this result
  • svp67
    svp67 8 June 2020 10: 05 New
    +4
    But Russia didn’t only fight with the Polovtsy
    And not only with them ... The Great Steppe was not only a threat, but also that huge market where trade, mutually beneficial trade took place. In addition, it should not be disregarded that in those days of "feudal disunity", military alliances were often concluded between tribes that were previously strongly at odds with each other, the main thing was gaining benefits.
  • gabonskijfront
    gabonskijfront 8 June 2020 11: 00 New
    +2
    My beloved Andrei Bogolyubsky, half Polovtsian, the first Russian prince who did not have the syndrome of "indispensable Kiev sitting." After taking it, he simply burned it and returned to his Vladimir-Suzdal land. there will be no when.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 8 June 2020 20: 18 New
      +1
      Quote: gabonskijfront
      My beloved Andrei Bogolyubsky, half Polovtsian, the first Russian prince who did not have the syndrome of "indispensable Kiev sitting." After taking it, he simply burned it and returned to his Vladimir-Suzdal land. there will be no when.

      Maidan in Kiev, children's games with the veche meeting of Mr. Veliky Novgorod !!!
      1. Diviz
        Diviz 9 June 2020 13: 32 New
        0
        Moscow Kiev made the entrance yard. To other cities in Russia you do not care. But this is only the territory to the Urals, we have access to Siberia and go to the Pamirs and learn the history of ancient than when the Great Novgorod was built. I understand you redneck strangles with envy. People plowed the land, worked on collective farms. Now it is time to press buttons in your matrix called Internet buttons. But you have to lower yourself to your level. What you write with a pen you will not cut down with an ax.
  • Pashhenko Nikolay
    Pashhenko Nikolay 8 June 2020 11: 45 New
    +2
    In my opinion, our princes among themselves are much more often squandered than with the Polovtsy.
  • Pvi1206
    Pvi1206 8 June 2020 11: 45 New
    +2
    The history of states is the history of wars ... peacetime of historians is not interested ...
    1. Gato
      Gato 8 June 2020 15: 07 New
      +3
      Ha, moreover, many historians are not interested in history itself - only their opinion about it.
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 8 June 2020 13: 02 New
    12
    I read the article, noted to myself the low level of preparation and study of the material. In fact, the article in its content does not go beyond the article "Polovtsy" in Wikipedia. But the good thing is that there are no alternative concepts, although we can thank the author for this.
    But I would not like to say this, but about how the example of this article clearly shows the dependence of the level of comments on the level of preparation of the source material. If the source material is weak, then folkhistorics and radical skeptics begin to erupt in the comments.
    Already the second comment:
    Quote: siberalt
    The story we are hiding in is the pseudoscience of political prostitutes.

    Who is "us"? People whose ceiling is reading a science pop book? Or those who in their life have not mastered a single work of a real historian, and judges the state of historical science exclusively by the works of mathematicians, biochemists, geologists and other clowns and jesters like Zadornov? If so, then I agree, because what these people are doing and what they pour into the ears of readers and listeners is really pseudoscience. But personally, I do not consider myself a consumer of this rubbish and I strongly recommend the rest to refuse it.
    Next:
    Quote: Gardamir
    Kievan Rus was invented in the 19th century.

    "Kievan Rus" is just a term, nothing more. You can say "Old Russian state of the X-XII centuries. With the capital in Kiev", but this is longer. "Kievan Rus" is shorter and more familiar. And if someone is sick of the word "Kiev" - this is, rather, a question for doctors, and not for historians.
    Quote: Gardamir
    The article is a consequence of Putin’s speech,

    In this context, EVERYTHING in our country is a consequence of one or another speech by Putin. "The cat abandoned the kittens - it's Putin's fault." And, by the way, you are wrong here - the article contains nothing about the Pechenegs.
    Quote: DiViZ
    Kiev became the Khazar Khaganate of Samarkand, the Western Karakhanid Khaganate. The Caucasus Mountains were used to transport mercenaries through the city of Tabriz.

    I have the impression that some of the comments are written while standing on a platform on a stool with a noose around the neck. As if a person is in a hurry to say as much as possible, because now they will knock out the stool and that's it. If I understood what the author of this comment meant, I might somehow be able to object. But for me his remark is akin to some kind of "Yykhhhu! Agrum babsi magabab, ilua pim-pim byayaya ..." There is an emotional message - there is no meaning.
    Quote: KVU-NSVD
    It is a pity that Monomakh was the last truly Grand Prince of pre-Igov Rus. Should Batu Khan appear in Russia during his undivided power

    Monomakh never possessed undivided power. If he tried to order something to Oleg Chernigovsky, for example, he would simply twirl his finger at his temple, like, "Volodya, what are you doing, collapsed from an oak tree? I am the same prince like you, but according to the ladder, I stand above you." In order to hold some kind of joint event with other princes, Monomakh could not simply give an order in the style of "you - there, you - there", it was necessary to negotiate with each potential participant, convince, persuade, promise, bargain, threaten and etc. And on the battlefield, any prince led his squad at his own discretion. The plan, of course, was being built, discussed, but when the princes each returned to his squad, no one could control the implementation of this plan.
    Quote: KCA
    news has now appeared that the nomads participated in the Battle of the Ice, even some evidence leads

    What are the nomads in the Battle of the Ice, what are you talking about? Again, some Turkic-Tatar nationalists, whom you can’t go to the forest to avoid the Great Horde? If it’s not difficult, please give a link to the source of such innermost knowledge - I wonder how this thesis can be substantiated.
    Quote: KCA
    Alexander Nevsky was a twin of the Khan of the Horde

    The invention of Gumilyov. Fiction, overgrown with speculation and legends, but not ceasing from this to be an ordinary fantasy
    Quote: gabonskijfront
    My beloved Andrei Bogolyubsky, half Polovtsian, was the first Russian prince who did not have the syndrome of "indispensable Kiev sitting." After taking it, he simply burned it and returned to his Vladimir-Suzdal land.

    Andrei Bogolyubsky did not personally participate in the campaign to Kiev, so he could not return. In addition, no one burned Kiev, except for the Mongols, but it will be much later. Robbed - yes, something burned out at the same time - yes. After the campaign of Andrei, Kiev was preserved and for a long time remained the largest and most important city in Russia - right up to the Mongol invasion. The most striking example is Prince Rurik Rostislavich, who sat down to rule in Kiev six or seven times, or Prince Vsevolod Chermny, who lost his native Chernigov to Rurik (despite the fact that Rurik himself was from the Smolensk house, which had nothing to do with Chernigov land) just to to sit in Kiev, and it was much later than Andrei. As for Andrei himself, he might have been happy to sit in Kiev, but only the examples of his father and brother did not inspire him. They did not like their family in Kiev. Poisoned, or otherwise would have somehow dealt with. So Andrei did not seek to be in Kiev, not because Kiev was bad, but because he was personally in danger there. All other princes with joy there, in Kiev, were besieged and were pleased.
    1. ee2100
      ee2100 8 June 2020 18: 27 New
      -6
      "and jesters like Zadornov?" Not so good about the deceased. "on the works of mathematicians, biochemists, geologists" Do you hint at their works on history? And what's wrong with that that people are interested in these subjects? They express their opinion or they have some questions about the history of Russia. They only hang labels.
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 8 June 2020 19: 03 New
        +5
        Quote: ee2100
        They express their opinion or they have some questions on the history of Russia.

        Everyone can express an opinion. For any reason. Including in the opinion of another.
        I have already clarified my position regarding pseudo-historical currents and their popularization in wide circles, in short, it proceeds from several basic theses.
        1. Apologists for these pseudoscientific theories themselves do not believe in their truth, because when they try to justify them consciously (I emphasize, consciously!) They resort to various methods, completely uncharacteristic for science, but very characteristic of propaganda work - direct lies, manipulations, substitution of theses, transitions to the personalities of opponents and other ways of influencing the emotions of the consumer of information.
        2. The main motivator for the actions of such individuals is not a desire to engage in educational work, but a selfish interest. The monetization of their own works occupies the most important place in their activities. At the same time, they do not care about the content component of their works, or rather, they only care about the part that allows you to attract as many consumers of their creativity as possible.
        3. The wide dissemination of their views, mainly radical nationalist or close to them, will entail a general radicalization of the population, and if their views take on dominant positions in state ideology and their preachers gain real political power, for Russia this will end in a very deplorable way .
        And I quite seriously admit that the majority, or even all these pseudo-historical theories, to one degree or another, are an instrument, or rather, even an weapon of ideological struggle aimed at the collapse of Russia as a single multinational state. The weapon, of course, is not the only one, but quite important. How this weapon works and what consequences it causes can be seen in Ukraine.
        That, in fact, is all. I have repeatedly been convinced of the truth of all three theses and am ready to give arguments in their favor, although I consider it to be honest, useless, in the comments.
        1. ee2100
          ee2100 8 June 2020 19: 34 New
          -4
          Wow, how they wrote! Directly to the first TV channels. Is the monetization of "works" in the last place among historians? Straight non-silver people.
          For some reason, historians do not want to enter into open debate, but try to hang more and more labels. Klesov offers discussions, maybe I'm not in the know, but there are no volunteers. Genetics is a science, and in what area it is applied is another matter. You do not mind when geneticists examine covid 19 and I hope you trust their results. And why do not you admit that these methods can be applied in archeology (history). What is good about exact sciences, unlike history, is the repeatability of experience and the verification of results.
          In history, there was such an episode as the uprising of tissues. Did they break the machines and that science and progress stopped?
          I understand that my questions are now purely rhetorical.
          1. Operator
            Operator 8 June 2020 19: 40 New
            -6
            Your opponent is a Tatar historian (= British scholar).
            1. ee2100
              ee2100 8 June 2020 19: 43 New
              -2
              Am I a Tatar-British historian?
              1. Operator
                Operator 8 June 2020 19: 51 New
                -2
                I wrote - your opponent.
                1. ee2100
                  ee2100 8 June 2020 20: 22 New
                  0
                  British Tatar in the service of the Pushkin regime! This is serious
          2. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 8 June 2020 21: 49 New
            +3
            Quote: ee2100
            Is the monetization of "works" in the last place among historians?

            You can imagine - not on the first.
            Those scientists, I mean real, recognized scientists, doctors of sciences, with whom I was personally acquainted, who I visited at home, lived in ordinary apartments of ordinary multi-storey buildings. Yes, they did not need anything, they did not need to think about their daily bread, but nothing more. The scientist’s salary is not so great, and the circulation of their works is significantly inferior to Dontsova and Fomenko.
            It’s just that these people’s recognition of their merits in the scientific community is much more important than anything else, and in ordinary life they don’t need anything special to work productively - ordinary food, drink, so that it’s warm, dry, calm and quiet and have uninterrupted access to the information they are interested in. I can’t say that they are all just like that, but that’s exactly what science is doing.
            Quote: ee2100
            For some reason, historians don’t want to enter into open debate,

            Controversy materials are in the public domain. Klesov (if he interests you) and Balanovsky, Klesov and Klein. Read them (especially the polemic with Klein) and understand why no one with the same Klesov enters into a polemic. There, the Operator partially explained this to you, the level of his argumentation repeats Klesovskaya.
            More recently, young scientists independently, without state support, began to engage in the popularization of science, and not only history. Many, realizing the importance of this process, spend this time at the expense of their scientific career, many find their vocation in this. They are ready for polemic, ready for insults from the opponent and methods of warfare that are far from scientific. But nobody wants to argue with them. I saw the materials of face-to-face discussions with the participation of Zadornov, Igor Danilevsky and Fedor Uspensky. Zadornov showed himself to be very active, and witty, but extremely superficial interlocutor, he is a clown, jester, showman, he did the show. He did not listen, and if he listened, he did not understand what they were saying to him, scientific argumentation meant nothing to him. Does it make sense to argue with such a person?
            Let Klesov or Fomenko talk on historical topics, for example, with Klim Zhukov. It will be a fire, I promise you. But this is unlikely to happen. Klim is a popularizer, he is used to performing for neophytes, he is used to doing shows and, of course, has enough baggage of historical knowledge. It is useless to polemicize with him - he is younger, he thinks faster, he is witty, insolent in a good way and, most importantly, he knows more from history than Fomenko and Klesov put together. He will redeem any of their manipulations at once and decompose them in such a way that it is clear to the neophytes and not only understandable, but also ridiculous, as it should be, as it is.
            1. ee2100
              ee2100 8 June 2020 22: 28 New
              0
              At the end, I wrote that the questions are rhetorical. About Zhukov, I heard that he announced his discussion with Klesov, but did not appear. I’ll check your links. I can’t understand why Klesov didn’t please the official story. His message is simple - I have data, can you explain? No. Let's figure it out together.
              Vashchenko, you hope he knows. So, in the comments on one of the recent publications about the Western glorious, he was touched, remembering the time at the university, when he taught this period to all these rhodimichs, Yaroslavovichs, etc., etc. I can recall with pleasure how we crammed the Krebs cycle in biochemistry . The same cramming.
              I'm not talking about an empty polemic where the "great and terrible" Klim Zhukov will drag Klesov somewhere. Dream. Moreover, your Klim is more of a clown than Zadornov. Klesov does not go into history. He just says the data is like this. Your "professional" historians living in ordinary apartments, could collect rubles and check this "klesovschina", but no one is going to do this. Is your friend true?
              You are hoping for some sort of debate. But unlike history, genetics is an exact science. In history, everyone is used to negotiating. Those. it is an understandable science.
              1. Trilobite Master
                Trilobite Master 8 June 2020 22: 34 New
                +2
                Klesov as a historian, in my opinion, was defeated by Klein the archaeologist. Klesov as a geneticist is also defeated by the geneticist Balanovsky. True, read their articles addressed to each other, if not, it is interesting.
                Klim - yes, a clown, I personally do not share many of his concepts, but I don’t know that he might not have come to a polemic. I do not believe.
                Quote: ee2100
                check this "klesovschina", but no one is going to do it.

                Not at all. If you type in a search engine "criticism of DNA genealogy" you can find a lot of interesting things. smile
                1. ee2100
                  ee2100 8 June 2020 23: 17 New
                  +1
                  About Klim. He and Klesov were supposed to have a meeting in the Pushnin cafe, if I'm not mistaken, at least that's how it was announced.
                  I read LS Klein's review of Klesov's book "On the Origin of the Slavs" 2015 Horror. The review is written in the best traditions of Berry-Ezhevskaya "billistics". If you think this is permissible, then welcome to this serpentarium.
                  The main conclusion: and "the system of argumentation of A. A. Klyosov
                  structured on false grounds, providing room for revelry of individual
                  alnal prejudices and addictions. All the main points put in
                  new egetogenetic views - haplogroup as a genus, R1a as a label
                  Slavs, arias as a biological community, rejection of the concept of “Indo-European
                  tsy ”, ethnocook a group of genera - all this goes against the principles of modern
                  Sciences. Klesov’s ethnicity, called “DNA genealogy,” is not genetics
                  in general, and not modern genealogy, it is far from objective study.
                  Ny ethnogen. This is a mixture of genetic technology from the medieval genealogy -
                  her and nationalist ideology.
                  We have to conclude that self-confidence and narcissism successfully-
                  The biochemist sang a cruel joke with him. He took up topics in which
                  it doesn’t completely break up without the necessary preparation for this. His whole book
                  about the origin of the svyans is not just a huge setback. This is a failure.
                  Literature
                  Artamon "
                  How does this resume differ from the speech of the inquisitor of the Middle Ages?
                  What rests. Klein - PRINCIPLES and still accuses of all serious.
                  1. Trilobite Master
                    Trilobite Master 8 June 2020 23: 35 New
                    +1
                    Well, you probably imagine my own syllable. smile Compared to how I would have expressed the same thoughts, Klein is extremely correct. smile
                    In essence, there is nothing to argue at all. In this book, Klesov actually identified genetic origin with ethnicity, giving our radical Nazis a straightforward "Hitler's compass" to measure the degree of "Slavism" or, even worse, "Russianness". This is me in simple words. Klein talks about this in a slightly more florid way, but the essence remains the same. There is a typical substitution of theses and concepts, and all this is implicated in the worst kind of nationalism - an attempt to scientifically substantiate the total superiority of one nation over another, moreover, with the provision of a specific tool in order to "unmistakably" distinguish "their full-fledged" from others, suitable only for wheel lubrication history.
                    1. ee2100
                      ee2100 9 June 2020 00: 42 New
                      0
                      Whoever wants what he sees. I am not claiming that Klesov is 100% right, but he "touched on" history from the side of genetics and geneticists, not archaeologists-historians, should evaluate this method. And so it turns out that the Russian official history "does not see Klesov point-blank" and only a couple of people decided to express their opinion about his theory, even if not in person. Meanwhile, Klesov is actively promoting his theory and has recently become a prominent figure in the Russian segment of the Internet. And one gets the impression that the official historical science of Russia has surrendered to the mercy of the "klesovshcheny". And if so, then he is right. And everything that historians teach at school is not worth a penny.
                      Or maybe historians realized that he was right, and if so, then history should be rewritten. Assessment of the theory of Klesov should give genetics.
                      1. The comment was deleted.
                      2. ee2100
                        ee2100 9 June 2020 01: 21 New
                        -1
                        I would not say that it is opposed. It seems that the whole official history has taken the "pose of an ostrich", in the sexual sense of this expression, and pretends that everything is quiet and calm in their garden.
                      3. Operator
                        Operator 9 June 2020 01: 32 New
                        -3
                        An example is contagious - their darling Klein sat for sodomy under Soviet rule laughing
                      4. ee2100
                        ee2100 9 June 2020 01: 42 New
                        0
                        And they forbid us to pick our nose!
                2. Trilobite Master
                  Trilobite Master 9 June 2020 12: 01 New
                  0
                  Quote: ee2100
                  Who wants what he sees.

                  Try to look a little deeper and you will see the same thing.
                  Quote: ee2100
                  And it turns out that the Russian official history "does not see" Klesov at close range.

                  You see, there are many klesovye and not only in history. If you react and take a grudge against everyone, there will not be enough time for normal scientific work. Although Klesov personally noted the official science, even though it seems to me that it’s not enough, for example, the VRLA Academy, of which he was elected not so long ago. Take an interest in this award, interestingly.
                  On the other hand, who is he so that serious people break away from their affairs to receive a portion of his insults? He has not so many followers, you can find enough criticism if you wish, and scolding him from each iron is the same as popularizing it.
                  Quote: ee2100
                  recent time has become a prominent figure in the Russian segment of the Internet.

                  The last time I saw him speak on TV Day about a strangled black man in the United States. I didn’t listen to it, but I saw it in the recommended ones. I hadn't seen or heard before for a couple of years. On the contrary, it seems to me that he was blown away and if it were not for third-party financial injections into his project, he would have stopped bothering the population with his fabrications. On some of his topics, he even began to include the back, they say "I didn't say that", in particular, like, "I did not call haplogroup R1a Slavic".
                  In short, everything is clear to me personally with Klesov, and for a long time. And the fact that it is supported by people like the Operator in itself speaks volumes, like a cherry on a cake.
                3. ee2100
                  ee2100 9 June 2020 12: 34 New
                  0
                  Good afternoon. What is the prize "lied" in the course and in the course of voting. I may just as well establish any kind of prize. Dobryshevsky's works are superficially familiar. What I saw did not inspire. As a popularizer of science, he really needs such PR, in the form of prizes.
                  Returning to genetics. What does Kolesov’s theory not suit you - a method or interpretation of the results?
                4. Trilobite Master
                  Trilobite Master 9 June 2020 13: 29 New
                  -2
                  Actually, what Klesov does is the essence of population genetics, or rather, part of it, or rather, an arbitrary piece, a layer of accumulated knowledge, taken out of the general scientific context. So the methods used by Klesov and the interpretation of the results can be considered vicious.
                  Methods are very selective. For example, Klesov completely rejects the analysis of mitochondrial DNA, eliminating female inheritance data from scientific circulation. But from the point of view of determining whether the carrier of a particular gene belongs to any ethnic group, this is much more important, because the child as a person is more often formed in the mother’s environment — language, culture are most often instilled into him by his mother and her environment. Further. The data of related sciences - archeology, linguistics by Klesov are perceived exclusively in that part that confirms his conclusions and completely discards and does not even mention in his works the data of these sciences, which contradict his conclusions. Is the method enough?
                  According to the interpretation.
                  Wow, there’s a lot to say about that. The interpretation is absolutely arbitrary, as God puts on his soul. Poor arias rush around the Great Steppe back and forth, from China to Western Europe, leaving behind progress and civilization, taming horses in the forest, reinventing the wheel in the mountains, giving birth to diverse civilizations and religions and giving the world exceptionally great rulers and priests while remaining unchanged in their purity of blood, morals and customs. And, of course, who but the Russians are the main guardians of this purity? And these conclusions are made solely on the basis of the analysis of the Y chromosome ... Note that it was the Aryans - the ethnic group, and not the population, that did not spread in different directions, becoming different peoples, different ethnic groups based on the same genetic population, namely they walked back and forth , left, returned, while maintaining their ethnic identity, culture, language almost in its original form, and now we, like their descendants, the heirs of their fame and achievements here, in our historical homeland ... You are in doesn’t it confuse such an interpretation?
                  In short, I'm tired of discussing Klesov. Much has been written about his "scientific" research, and people are much closer to science than me. Read their articles, watch their speeches, geneticists are better at genetics than I am, linguists are better at linguistics, and historians are at history.
                  In my opinion, Klesov is an old crook, a manipulator and, in the best case for him, a mercenary crook, in the worst, a traitor and ideological saboteur working under the program of some State Department, especially since he carries out the main thing there, in the USA amount of your time.
                5. ee2100
                  ee2100 9 June 2020 13: 41 New
                  +1
                  As always, he remains with his opinion. American and British archaeologists use this method and normally, although the results are not always expected.
                6. Sertorius
                  Sertorius 9 June 2020 15: 28 New
                  +2
                  this is an old fraudster, manipulator and, in the best case for him, a self-serving rogue, in the worst, a traitor and ideological saboteur working under the program of some State Department, especially since he spends most of his time there in the USA.

                  Yes .... I did not expect from you such a level of argumentation.

                  Yes, and in the course of your discussion, I realized that your opinion about Klyosov was formed under the influence of colleagues, and not after reading him in detail. For example, your thesis that Klesov completely refuses to analyze mitochondrial DNA is not true. The correspondence discussion between Klein and Klesov, left me with the impression of a snob dispute that did not suit the opponent with a worthy argumentation due to his contempt for his "unscientific nature" on the one hand and an ambitious apologist for his own theory, resolutely not tolerating objections, on the other. This can hardly be called a serious discussion.
                  If the scientific world wants to protect fragile minds from DNA genealogy, it will have to enter into a normal discussion with Klesov, and not lock itself in, brushing it off. Otherwise, his theory will begin to be used exactly as you expect - for political purposes. Yours faithfully! hi
                7. Trilobite Master
                  Trilobite Master 10 June 2020 10: 14 New
                  -1
                  Quote: Sertorius
                  Yes .... I did not expect from you such a level of argumentation.

                  The argument is higher and it seems to me that I have given it enough to draw such a conclusion, so to speak, to summarize what has been said.
                  I, as you understand, do not follow Klesov's work and do not intend to, so I can "lag behind" and not be aware of his latest exercises. After he proclaimed the concept of "scientific patriotism" I simply cannot perceive him as a scientist - only as a charlatan and profanator. I absolutely don't want to waste time on such squalor, I don't see any point in it.
  • Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 8 June 2020 20: 30 New
    0
    Hi Michael! Now I will call you "brazen British-Tatar mug"! Explain clearly how to wrap it like that !!! laughing just do not be offended, I fully subscribe to your comments !!! Andrei is furious, goes to the person, then everything worked out !!!
    I allow you to cheat as you please !!! Even ready to fraternize in the field of historical justice !!!
    Well, the British-Tatar historian is a trash, there are no words - a brain rupture !!!!!!!!!!!
    With sincere respect!
    1. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 8 June 2020 21: 57 New
      +3
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      British Tatar historian

      Hello, Vlad. In fact, Vyacheslav Olegovich should be insulting - he is special in Britain, and I, now a competitor comes out to him. Will the British treasury have enough money for us two? I thought that I had occupied my Tatar niche and that would be the end of it. I wonder what in the eyes of the Operator will be the next stage of my initiation? Chinese historian? Jewish? American? Reptiloid? We will have a look. laughing
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 June 2020 13: 12 New
        0
        We will wait when Wales and Scotland will cross swords for the possession of Mikhail Batkovich (real Bulgarian) judging by the name) !!!
        Pure Tatar from the era of trilobites !!! I’ll be retired to ask you as a junior assistant! Krynki from rats to guard !!!
  • Diviz
    Diviz 10 June 2020 20: 30 New
    0
    maybe you are a relative of Attila, but you write and know too much. or Prince Vladimir although the prince later appeared.
    1. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 10 June 2020 21: 36 New
      0
      Quote: DiViZ
      maybe you are a relative of Attila

      Who knows? I had two grandfathers and two grandmothers, four great-grandfathers and four great-great-grandmothers, eight great-great-grandfathers and great-great-grandmothers each, well, then count yourself how many of my ancestors stomped the earth during the time of Prince Vladimir and this ... Attila. Who is it by the way - Attil?
      1. Diviz
        Diviz 10 June 2020 21: 58 New
        0
        I already typed. All information is still on the Internet. And everyone draws conclusions himself
  • Operator
    Operator 8 June 2020 15: 37 New
    -6
    Quote: Gardamir
    And what is Russia?

    I was especially delivered by your comment in the news about the show of "Brother" on Channel One - did you try to express your thoughts in your native Hebrew? bully
  • Operator
    Operator 8 June 2020 16: 02 New
    -2
    Since the arrival of the Scythians in the Northern Black Sea Region (end of the 2nd millennium BC), the steppes have not been the territory of the ancestors of the Slavs who occupied the forest zone of Eastern Europe.

    Because leapfrog with the change of the nomadic population of the Wild Field (Slavic name of the steppe zone) from the Scythians to the Sarmatians, Goths, Huns and Pechenegs did not touch the Slavs. The problems began with the creation of a state of nomads under the Khazars, but they were resolved by creating the Slavic state of Russian Land and the destruction of the Khazars by Svyatoslav.

    In place of the Khazars came nomads - Polovtsy, which Rusich used in the tail and mane.

    Difficulty arose only with the second nomadic state - the Mongol Empire, to which Russia fell into feudal dependence for 150 years (before the Battle of Kulikovo), after which another 100 years (before standing on the Ugra) paid a tribute like the Byzantine Empire paid to its neighbors .

    After that, for 300 years, Russia has erased all the peoples of the Wild Field into dust - from the Kazan Khanate to the Crimean Khanate, then everywhere.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 8 June 2020 20: 32 New
      0
      . In place of the Khazars came nomads - Polovtsy, which Rusich used in the tail and mane.

      The chain is an order of magnitude more complicated, at least it is present in it - Pechenegs, Ugrians and Guzy !!!
      1. The comment was deleted.
  • andrew42
    andrew42 8 June 2020 19: 16 New
    +4
    Well, they found a villainous enemy. Polovtsi! Fortunately, this people has been gone for a long time, and they cannot say anything in their own defense. It is undeniable that the Polovtsians were a terrible threat to the villagers, but for the Russian statehood .. hmm .. this is a lie. The faint-heartedness of the princes tearing fiefdoms out of each other is the real reason for the Polovtsian "successes". A worthy prince, like Svyatoslav Yaroslavich, could overthrow the Polovtsian horde with 3000 soldiers. And as for the intention of the Polovtsians to populate the Slavic lands - the author generally screwed up with some hangover. In fact, the Polovtsians became mercenaries in the civil strife of the Russian princes. On the other hand, it was an external factor that served as a temporary consolidation of the then Russia. Otherwise, Russia would have collapsed as the Western Slavic lands, and would have awaited its fate vigorous, or Bohemians and Moravians. The slave trade was the engine of the war. and from the Russian side, too, the Kiev princes-traders highly respected this business. Monomakh simply covered up this business, mutually destructive for both peoples. He covered it up so that then Igorek, trying to repeat it, went crazy. And as for the intention of the Polovtsians to populate the Slavic lands - the author generally screwed up with some hangover.
  • imiarek alija
    imiarek alija 9 June 2020 13: 28 New
    +1
    I thank the author for the article. It is very interesting to me. I would like to know more about the Polovtsy, Pechenegs and Khazars. I am a Kharkiv woman and we have toponyms-Pechenegs (village), Pecheneg reservoir. And the population of our Slobozhan is very multinational. By virtue of watered trends, we rewrite and hush up the real story.
  • Koval Sergey
    Koval Sergey 14 June 2020 11: 39 New
    +2
    One can only guess what happened before. So many times rewrote the story ...
  • andrew42
    andrew42 6 August 2020 13: 59 New
    0
    This is precisely the "Polovtsian assimilation" that is the question. Mentioned in the last sentence of the article. And the rest is a compilation of the well-known. Plus the author should delete Svyatoslav from among the "uncles dividing Russia", Father Oleg cannot be an "uncle". Do not die Svyatoslav at the wrong time, Oleg would not have to recapture the Chernigov land from greedy uncles. Polovtsi respected Svyatoslavich as the son of the one who broke the same Polovtsi on the first day. Well, and most importantly, Chernigov is not a friend to Kiev, the opinion of the "land" weighs no less than the princes' Wishlist.