Military Review

“The main barrel of Russian artillery”: Polish media on the modernization of “Akatsiy”

96

Russia began the next phase of modernization of the 2S3M Akatsiya self-propelled howitzers during the overhaul of this type of guns. These events are part of a program to upgrade old artillery pieces.


As the contractor of the Ministry of Defense explains, improved howitzers will receive, in particular, a new communication system, foreign components will be replaced with Russian counterparts with better characteristics, a new chassis, created on the current base, is provided.

According to the Polish edition of Defense24, 2C3, Acacia was developed by Soviet engineers at the turn of the 1960s - 1970s. She supplemented the “Carnations” available in the artillery units of 2C1. In the late 1970s, these systems underwent modernization to the standard 2C3M, and then 2C3M1, in the framework of which they received a new communication and fire control system, which made it possible, in particular, to increase the rate of fire.

In 2004-2009, part of the "Acacia" was improved to the level of 2C3M2. The mass of the modernized system is 27 tons, and the effective fire range is from 17 to 20 km, depending on the type of ammunition.

According to Defense24, at present, despite the expiration of almost half a century since the start of production, the 2C3 Acacia, along with the 2C1 Gvozdika, is still the main receiver artillery system in service with the Russian army. Despite plans to introduce 2C35 Coalition-SV and Msta-SM2 self-propelled products, these systems are currently undergoing systematic modernization aimed at maximizing their technical qualities and adapting to the requirements of modern combat.

These measures allow you to combine quality with quantity, as well as maintain the resource of artillery systems.

- indicates Defense24.
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  1. The leader of the Redskins
    The leader of the Redskins 7 June 2020 08: 04 New
    +4
    The potential of "Acacia", of course, is not unlimited and I think it is already coming to an end.
    Installation did its job. The next step is a gradual replacement with the above new systems.
    1. Insurgent
      Insurgent 7 June 2020 08: 11 New
      10
      Quote: Leader of the Redskins
      The potential of "Acacia", of course, is not unlimited and I think it is already coming to an end.
      Installation did its job.

      “The main barrel of Russian artillery”: Polish media on the modernization of “Akatsiy”

      Apparently not everything is said ...

      Most likely, if the outskirts in the end do not get out of good health for the former admin boundaries of the regions, not modernized "Acacia" and "Carnations" still have to work intensively ...

      Sorry in our landbut such is the war. It’s a difficult choice, but we will be forced to make it ...

      In 2014, experts, we called the war "Artillery warfare", in which, at that time, we gained the upper hand ...
      1. Lara Croft
        Lara Croft 7 June 2020 11: 02 New
        +3
        Insurgent if the outskirts in the end do not clean up in good health beyond the former administrative borders of the regions, not modernized "Acacia" and "Carnations", still have to work intensively ...

        I agree. Especially when you consider the fact that
        not modernized "Acacia" and "Carnations"
        make up the majority of the self-propelled artillery of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, LDNR and the Russian Federation ...
        1. Boris Chernikov
          Boris Chernikov 7 June 2020 18: 28 New
          +3
          the Poles wrote everything correctly, 800 Acacia we have less than 700 self-propelled howitzers in the caliber 152/203 mm, so in fact there is no escape from Acacia, and according to the logic of artillery there is always something to hit at a distance of 20 km .. It was optimal to deal with the withdrawal of towed artillery for the state in favor of a self-propelled tracked or wheeled ..
          1. Lara Croft
            Lara Croft 7 June 2020 19: 04 New
            0
            Quote: Boris Chernikov
            there is something to hit at a distance of 20 km ..

            following your logic and 5 km. there is something to amaze ... "Msta-S" began to be developed in the early 80s, precisely to replace "Akatsia", respectively, even then the latter ceased to satisfy the requirements of the military ...
            It would be more optimal to deal with the withdrawal of towed artillery for the state in favor of a self-propelled tracked or wheeled ..

            ... without towed (and self-propelled) artillery, the same is impossible, everything has its purpose ... the problem, incl. with towed PA, things are even worse with us than with self-propelled ...
            1. Boris Chernikov
              Boris Chernikov 11 June 2020 19: 48 New
              0
              funny ... that is. Acacia must be thrown out, because it is "outdated", and suicides who drive a cannon on a truck must be left ... they have a "purpose" ... and what purpose? angrily, and now what's the problem to replace?
              1. Lara Croft
                Lara Croft 11 June 2020 20: 38 New
                0
                Quote: Boris Chernikov
                funny ... that is. The acacia must be thrown out, because it is "outdated", and suicides who drive a cannon on a truck must be left .. they have a "purpose" .. and what is the purpose?

                Stupid question. Why throw it out? But in the linear units and formations of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, it has no place, "Akatsia" ceased to suit back in the 70s, so Msta-S was developed to replace it in the 80s, the collapse of the Union prevented rearmament ...
                The troops do not need BTs that do not meet their military specifications, therefore it is first sent to artillery weapons storage bases and then disposed of ....
                So everyone ...
                An example for the British was no longer satisfied with the 105 mm self-propelled guns "Abbot" at the end of the Cold War it was replaced by the 155-mm self-propelled guns AS-90 ....
                I won’t write anything about the difference between self-propelled and towed barreled field artillery. this discussion will not apply to this article, but there will be a reason for stupid idle talk and insults .... try to keep within the framework of the topic of the article under discussion and not go into flood and trolling ...
                1. Boris Chernikov
                  Boris Chernikov 11 June 2020 21: 45 New
                  0
                  this is not a flood, this is a fact, apart from a few narrow-profile places, the towed artillery is a set of a truck + a gun + a suicide squad, who will die when meeting an enemy who has heard about counter-battery combat. Regarding "take and replace", it sounds very nice when you write on the Internet, but in reality, replacing 2 guns is an unrealistic task for a short time, therefore, the modernization potential of the ACS is used, this is like upgrading the bmp-000m, for someone it is not I like it, but it's better she than the holy "no shit on"
          2. maykl8
            maykl8 7 June 2020 21: 05 New
            +2
            20 km is the total. The area of ​​firing positions for "Akatsiy" is 6-8 km from the forward edge. 20 - 8 = 12 km. But this is in a straight line, and with turns it is clean 8-10 km from the leading edge.
            1. Boris Chernikov
              Boris Chernikov 11 June 2020 19: 50 New
              0
              and we have already put in the army 1 Msta-S to replace all the guns? no. then you need to squeeze the maximum out of what is .. From Akatsii no one needs to shoot for 000 km, this is a weapon of support for the troops, they provide support
              1. Lara Croft
                Lara Croft 11 June 2020 20: 26 New
                0
                Quote: Boris Chernikov
                and we have already put in the army 1 Msta-S to replace all the guns?

                Problem incl. "Msta-S" which was created in the early 80s (!) To replace "Akatsia" itself is already outdated (therefore, "Coalition" was developed to replace all 155th self-propelled gun), problem including. "Acacia" is no longer produced, and the number of "Msta-S" has been sufficiently produced only for peacetime compounds, if it is necessary to form new compounds, they will have to be equipped with old "Acacia" in storage ...
                1. Boris Chernikov
                  Boris Chernikov 11 June 2020 21: 40 New
                  0
                  no one will change completely to the Coalition - it is trite irrational and stupid
      2. Tank jacket
        Tank jacket 7 June 2020 13: 04 New
        -8
        While we are forcing Minsk-2. He is like a nail to them at the fifth point. I do not recommend involving RF in TMV ...
      3. Normal ok
        Normal ok 8 June 2020 00: 01 New
        -4
        Quote: Insurgent
        Most likely, if the outskirts in the end do not clean up in good health beyond the former administrative borders of the regions, not modernized "Acacia" and "Carnations", will still have to work intensively ...

        Yes, you’re a fantastic friend))
    2. Zaurbek
      Zaurbek 7 June 2020 08: 53 New
      -7
      You can’t shoot a short barrel from this.
      1. novel66
        novel66 7 June 2020 09: 36 New
        -2
        and generally speaking!
        howitzers 2S3M "Acacia" during the overhaul of guns of this type

        gun or howitzer ??
        1. Zaurbek
          Zaurbek 7 June 2020 09: 50 New
          +7
          She's a howitzer gun. there is such a term.
      2. Nikolaevich I
        Nikolaevich I 7 June 2020 10: 21 New
        12
        Quote: Zaurbek
        You can’t shoot a short barrel from this.

        Paaa, you think! One has only to "score" in the search engine: "How to increase ...." - so many recommendations and "funds" will "fall out" ...! Just choose! fellow
    3. Tugarin
      Tugarin 7 June 2020 11: 12 New
      +2
      The potential of "Acacia", of course, is not unlimited and I think it is already coming to an end.
      Installation did its job.

      At the training grounds for acquaintance of conscripts, it is just more expedient to use the "Akatsia" in order to save the resource of new systems. And already on the "Mstu" to change with some experience.
      1. Zaurbek
        Zaurbek 7 June 2020 11: 59 New
        +1
        For familiarization and shooting, we rolled out the M30 and a similar 152mm to it. I do not remember the name. In terms of calculations and firing is no different
        1. Normal ok
          Normal ok 8 June 2020 00: 04 New
          -2
          Quote: Zaurbek
          Ц

          I still managed to shoot from ZIS-2 and D-44.
          1. Zaurbek
            Zaurbek 8 June 2020 06: 41 New
            0
            D44 was given to us instead of MT12. One MT12 and two D44. They are sharply smaller and lighter .....
        2. Lexa-149
          Lexa-149 8 June 2020 10: 56 New
          0
          152mm howitzer D-1
        3. bistrov.
          bistrov. 8 June 2020 18: 17 New
          0
          M-30 -122 mm. howitzer of the time of the Second World War, and 152 mm - really M-10 still preserved Next is the D-1 howitzer-gun, but it has a muzzle brake, so it does not look like an M-30.
          Quote: Zaurbek
          M30 and similar to it 152mm.
          1. Zaurbek
            Zaurbek 8 June 2020 20: 20 New
            0
            M30 and very similar to it. The barrel and wheels are thicker and the manual shutter sideways opens.
      2. Lopatov
        Lopatov 7 June 2020 12: 29 New
        +7
        Quote: Tugarin
        At landfills for familiarization with conscripts

        The 2C19 simulator looks like this:

        He will prepare conscripts much more effectively than 2С3
    4. Vlad T
      Vlad T 7 June 2020 13: 14 New
      +1
      You are right, time and changes by leaps and bounds are moving faster and faster (especially in military affairs) ... To dream, (dreaming is not harmful): using artillery in the new conditions of reconnaissance and counter-battery and other struggle, new needs NECESSARY for victory emerge. Firstly, mobility and stealth, to use all the possibilities, from thermal and visual camouflage (up to the closure of chameleons with thermal insulation from detection to inflatable "heated-glowing" self-propelled distracting mock-ups, etc.). Second. Combat use in a non-crewed version. (according to the pilot crew), and automated loading and aiming of battery guns according to target designation (there is already a complex with UAVs, air, satellite and other assistants in the centric version of the network). Processing on targets with multi-ballistic simultaneous targeting with HIGH-PRECISION ammunition and confirmation of the task completion. Further, "hands in feet" and separation from positions with camouflage. Precision, time of action, camouflage and mobility become the main criteria ... As for the lack of crew, so the crews are present at a distance during combat use, at first the closest, then all moving away ... New weapons and capabilities are always a significant part of victory ...
      1. Vlad T
        Vlad T 7 June 2020 14: 07 New
        0
        "Here Ostap suffered" ... The usual battery artillery unit, with high precision, adjusting fire and rate of fire, 1-2 guns are sufficient with up to 10-15 shots at targets identified at the same time (as with a rifle, - quick shooting of the clip and leaving). .. Today, one or two guns are always preferable to 4-6 or more without high-precision ammunition in action ... The artillery method of delivering ammunition to the target stands out for its cheapness, with the introduction of corrected ammunition, a "golden" combination of price and quality of fire is created, - high-precision ammunition and creates such a combination. Therefore, ALL artillery weapons should go to high-precision ammunition ...
        1. chenia
          chenia 7 June 2020 14: 39 New
          +5
          Quote: Vlad T
          1-2 guns are sufficient with up to 10-15 shots for simultaneously identified targets


          By GP? And where were you before, otherwise we didn’t know? And they were tormented by flashing with divisions at a rate of hundreds of shells per ha. (GP 6-8 ha).

          This is only with special.
        2. Lopatov
          Lopatov 7 June 2020 15: 03 New
          +6
          Quote: Vlad T
          Today, one or two guns are always preferable to 4-6 or more without precision munitions in action ...

          No.
          And never will be.

          High-precision ammunition has an advantage solely in the destruction of point targets. Moreover, they require more time for their application.
          1. Vlad T
            Vlad T 7 June 2020 15: 19 New
            -1
            At this point, change tactics with all the components. For moving targets with artillery in areas, - the consumption is incredible, there are incredibly few defeats, which means that the use of it is not ... ). To enlighten, such examples - understanding and approach is needed not in the old fashioned way. The saying, "Generals prepare for past wars." not without reason ...
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 7 June 2020 16: 11 New
              +5
              Quote: Vlad T
              There is a tactic to change with all the components.

              Slow down a lot? Will the enemy agree? laughing

              Quote: Vlad T
              An example from today - weak UAVs with high-precision ammunition give a rustle

              ... until they started pecking at their control points. As the Israelis did in Syria, and the entire "high efficiency of strike UAVs" did not rest in the bose.

              Quote: Vlad T
              To enlighten, such examples - understanding and approach is needed not the old fashioned way.

              Insist on progressive warlike optimism? Like "suppose that the enemy will not have the right to destroy our UAVs"?
              1. Vlad T
                Vlad T 7 June 2020 16: 21 New
                0
                No need to juggle. 1.Tactics are increasingly becoming swift and protected (with a delay, the goal is already at the time of the approach of the means of destruction) .2 In this fight and race, the development of weapons, tactics, and other things as offensive occurs. so defensive ... Optimism should be realistic and predictable ...
                1. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 7 June 2020 18: 20 New
                  0
                  Quote: Vlad T
                  No need to juggle. 1.Tactics are becoming increasingly fast

                  And you offer the opposite.
                  Take, for example, a standard target, a platoon stronghold. Now it’s enough to determine the coordinates of at least two point targets, and after one and a half to two minutes open fire.
                  You suggest that you slowly obtain the coordinates of dozens of individual targets, followed by defeat. That is, the time spent will increase by orders of magnitude. And the safety of their infantry is the other way around.
                  1. Vlad T
                    Vlad T 7 June 2020 19: 18 New
                    0
                    Let us trace further - fire is opened at the VOP, and this is several hundred meters in breadth and depth, a large consumption of BP and time is needed, and the defeat will not be guaranteed to be complete, in comparison with the work on pinpoint target destruction. Quote "slowly acquiring the coordinates of dozens of individual targets, followed by defeat." - the whole point is in coordination: the target, sight and correction should be automatic and in real time. This does not mean verbal transmission of commands to the numbers of the calculation, but the action in the integrated information mode of the network-centric general information field (on tablets and in automatic guidance using digital data). It's certainly a long way to this, but the potential enemy is already introducing into its ranks ... How not to be left behind at all ... ...
                    1. Lopatov
                      Lopatov 7 June 2020 20: 04 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Vlad T
                      Let’s follow further - fire is opened on the GP, and this is several hundred meters wide and depth, a large consumption of BP and time are needed, and the defeats will not be guaranteed to be complete, in comparison with the work on the target defeat of targets.

                      laughing
                      And it depends on the amount of ammunition. How "complete" the defeat will be. Including those goals that do not manifest themselves, and being not detected, are not affected by the method you propose.

                      Quote: Vlad T
                      Quote "slowly acquiring the coordinates of dozens of individual targets, followed by defeat." - the whole point is in coordination: the target, sight and correction should be automatic and in real time.

                      laughing laughing laughing
                      And the goals to detect and recognize who will be? That's right, until a supercomputer with AI-man appeared.
                      And it will be slow and sad .... while their own infantry is dying
          2. Zaurbek
            Zaurbek 8 June 2020 06: 45 New
            0
            The tasks are different. In war conditions, the defeat of the exit strongholds requires a certain amount of ammunition ... at least some. And you will spend them anyway. Counter-battery struggle is another matter. And the use of UAVs dramatically increases the accuracy of conventional shells
  2. The comment was deleted.
    1. The comment was deleted.
  3. Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 7 June 2020 08: 16 New
    13
    Nice howitzer. Accurate, reliable. Decent permeability. It will also serve. The barrels will change, the chassis, the control system, the automatic loader. Well, not everyone can shoot at 30-70 km. On the battlefield, you need to shoot "closer" more often ... laughing
    1. knn54
      knn54 7 June 2020 09: 17 New
      +5
      Eugene, I agree. Unpretentious, has a sealing system for inhabited squads to protect the crew from the damaging factors of chemical, bacteriological and nuclear weapons. Air transportable.
      I am not an artilleryman, but again we are looking to the West - maybe it is not worth "lengthening"
      barrel in pursuit of range.
      The greater the range. The less accuracy.
      1. Mountain shooter
        Mountain shooter 7 June 2020 09: 24 New
        +4
        Quote: knn54
        The greater the range. The less accuracy.

        Yes of course. And the dispersion is higher. And the projectile’s flight time to the target becomes very long.
        If the target moves, how can it be without using the projectile guidance system with the target’s illumination? Well, the wear of a long barrel with a high initial velocity of the projectile, I add, an expensive barrel, is great. Friction ... there's no getting anywhere ... tongue
        1. Zaurbek
          Zaurbek 7 June 2020 09: 52 New
          -2
          If the barrel is longer, then at the same range the dispersion will be less. Accuracy is higher.
          1. Mountain shooter
            Mountain shooter 7 June 2020 10: 00 New
            +6
            Quote: Zaurbek
            If the barrel is longer, then at the same range the dispersion will be less. Accuracy is higher.

            I'm actually talking about wear and tear. And the accuracy ... you prepare data on long-range shooting, you are given a "meteo-average", and then there are winds at different heights of different strengths and in different directions, the air temperature (and density too) ... Here you cook for 15 km - a scatter of hundreds of meters may occur. No adjustment and do not dream of getting there! And at 30? There, the height of the trajectory of the projectile is even higher. I'll tell you a secret, even the temperature of the charge matters, as well as the number of shells fired from the barrel and the rate of fire! The barrel heats up and EXPANDS. Artillery is a very complicated and exact science. Even barrel wear must be taken into account!
            1. Zaurbek
              Zaurbek 7 June 2020 10: 12 New
              0
              He studied at the institute. Studied. The longer the barrel, the better the accuracy of the axiom.
              1. rocket757
                rocket757 7 June 2020 10: 36 New
                +1
                Quote: Zaurbek
                He studied at the institute. Studied. The longer the barrel, the better the accuracy of the axiom.

                The more you invest in ammunition, make it "smarter", more reactive, the greater the range and accuracy! But here's the price!
                As always, the choice is either the price for improved features, or simplicity, reliability, for not expensive.
    2. Vol4ara
      Vol4ara 7 June 2020 09: 24 New
      -1
      Quote: Mountain Shooter
      Good howitzer. Accurate, reliable. Passable worthy. Still serve. The trunks will change, chassis, control system, automatic loader.

      And also the engine, communications equipment and housing
    3. Lexa-149
      Lexa-149 7 June 2020 10: 50 New
      +2
      This car lacks an "automatic loader" as a class. This is not a tank. What to change the chassis for ?! Maximum, the capital will be made, if necessary.
      1. PROXOR
        PROXOR 8 June 2020 12: 35 New
        +2
        It is not an automatic machine, but a tray type rammer.
        1. Lexa-149
          Lexa-149 9 June 2020 10: 02 New
          -1
          On your video, the fighting compartment 2s1
          1. PROXOR
            PROXOR 9 June 2020 16: 01 New
            0
            No difference. And in one and in the other one and the same
            1. Lexa-149
              Lexa-149 10 June 2020 09: 27 New
              -1
              They even look different. In 2с3 it is automated, and in 2с1 the rammer is manually displayed on the sending line.
              1. PROXOR
                PROXOR 10 June 2020 09: 41 New
                0
                Allow your comment from the category TO READ! Automated feed at MSTA-S there in the feed below the conveyor. This is automation. Even the shell and charge in the MSTA-S are put on a special conveyor from the ground, and not like on Acacia through the door in the stern. In the meantime, the loader himself puts the shell on the tray and the charge is semi-automatic loading. And the conversation is over. Your constructive part is ZERO.
                1. Lexa-149
                  Lexa-149 11 June 2020 04: 43 New
                  -1
                  What, how and where is served in the systems you have indicated, I know perfectly well without you. This is my specialty.
                  Regarding the doors in the stern 2c3 "Acacia", you generally bent it! Don't tell anyone else this, otherwise knowledgeable people will laugh at you and point a finger.
                  Teach materiel.
    4. Lara Croft
      Lara Croft 7 June 2020 12: 10 New
      +1
      Quote: Mountain Shooter
      The trunks will change, chassis, control system, automatic loader.

      About the fact that the trunks will change a word in the article, but this is important ... but meanwhile:
      The design and manufacture of the first prototypes of the artillery unit of the 152-mm self-propelled howitzer 2S3 "Akatsiya" took place in Sverdlovsk, in the OKB-9 plant named after MI Kalinin, and the chassis - at the Uraltransmash plant. The artillery unit of the self-propelled gun was developed on the basis of the 152-mm towed gun-howitzer D-20.

      https://topwar.ru/4415-akaciya-152-mm-samohodnaya-gaubica.html
      This 152-mm howitzer was developed after the end of the Second World War (1941-1945)., but the industrial production of gun-howitzers began only in the early 1950s, and the gun was first shown in the 55th

      https://topwar.ru/17653-152-millimetrovaya-pushka-gaubica-d-20-52-p-546.html
      Well, with whom "Akatsia" will compete in the European theater of operations, perhaps with the British AS-90 (this is how they are already moving there to update their self-propelled artillery, provided that their presence on the mainland is minimal, unlike XB) ...
      Meanwhile:
      At the beginning of the 80's GRAU issued led L.I. Gorlitsky Design Bureau of the Ural Transport Engineering Plant (UZTM) in Sverdlovsk new requirements for a 152 mm self-propelled howitzer for replacement in the troops of the howitzer 2S3 "Acacia". In 1989 year new self-propelled gun was adopted artillery regiments of motorized rifle and tank divisions of the Soviet army

      https://topwar.ru/4127-152-mm-samoxodnaya-gaubica-2s19-msta-s.html
      The USSR collapsed, so the rearmament did not work ...
      According to the VIKI, the RF Army is armed with 500 Msta-S and 800 Akatsia, the share of the former will apparently gradually increase due to the storage of the latter, and not due to the modernization of the former and produced by "Coalition"
      Concerning the "Coalition"
      "We expect that after choosing a platform "Coalition" will become the main artillery system, displacing "Mstu-S", "Akatsiya" and other 152 mm caliber installations. ", - said the representative of "Burevestnik". Installations "Coalition-SV", in 2013 will have to pass production tests, and in 2014 - state tests. Wherein installation "Msta-S", which are now rearming the army, by 2020 morally obsolete.

      https://topwar.ru/28168-sau-koaliciya-sv-koaliciya-sv-ksh-logicheskie-vyvody.html
      Article 2013
      Firstly, somewhere we have already read this, and secondly, why am I now modernizing "Akatsia" without changing the trunk (which is almost 70 years old), even if the "Msta-S", which is being replaced by it, is already morally obsolete?
      Concerning "Carnation":
      Serial production of the 122 mm 2C1 self-propelled howitzer continues. 2S1 "Carnation" at one time entered service with all armies of the Warsaw Pact countries (except for Romania). After the unification of Germany, the 374 2S1 received the Bundeswehr. "Carnation" is in service with the armies of the CIS and today, including the Belarusian army. A vehicle of this type is in service with the ground forces of Algeria, Angola, Bulgaria, Hungary, Iraq, Yemen, Libya, Poland, Russia, Syria, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Ethiopia and the former Yugoslavia.

      https://topwar.ru/4396-samohodnaya-gvozdika.html
      According to the Wiki, in service with the SV (probably there are a lot of them as part of the Airborne Forces, MP and ROSGVARDII) in total - 150 units
      She has developed a 120-mm Hosta self-propelled gun-howitzer-mortar 2S34 to replace it ... however, a full replacement did not work ...

      https://topwar.ru/78922-samohodnoe-artilleriyskoe-orudie-2s34-hosta.html
      ... in service with the RF NE - 50 units. and there will be no more, and here's why:
      According to the domestic press, a new self-propelled gun during the tests showed insufficient stability and rate of fire. So, due to the use of the old chassis, which was developed without taking into account the features of the new weapon, the Khosta Joint-Stock Company was swinging during firing with high elevation angles, which affected the accuracy of the fire. Similar problems were mainly observed when shooting in the “mortar” mode, since the recoil in this case is higher and has its own specifics of distribution over the machine’s units.
      The lack of stability of the chassis also affected the rate of fire. Due to the need to make new amendments and difficulties with loading the guns in a swinging machine during the tests, it was possible to fire at a rate of no more than 3-4 rounds per minute. For comparison, the towed 120 mm 2C12 Sani mortar, due to a more correct distribution of the recoil momentum, is capable of producing up to 10-12 rounds per minute. It was reported that due to identified problems the Ministry of Defense does not plan to purchase new self-propelled guns 2S34.

      https://topwar.ru/78922-samohodnoe-artilleriyskoe-orudie-2s34-hosta.html
      And how they have (armed with "Carnations"):
      ..... the Finnish army also has about 2 Soviet self-propelled guns 1S36 "Carnation" in service. And it was these models that it was decided to replace with more modern ones, which will be the South Korean K9 Thunder, produced by Samsung Techwin.
      Of course, the difference between the devices is significant. "Gvozdka" has a caliber of 122 mm, "Thunder" - 155 mm. The South Korean howitzer has a range of up to 50 km and uses high-precision Excalibur rounds, classified as "fuck you run away." In addition, the K-9 will be upgraded, after which a crew of only 2 people will be required to service them.

      https://zloy-odessit.livejournal.com/1818438.html
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 8 June 2020 15: 14 New
        0
        Quote: Lara Croft
        According to the Wiki, in service with the SV (probably there are a lot of them as part of the Airborne Forces, MP and ROSGVARDII) in total - 150 units

        EMNIP, artillery and tanks were taken away from the Rosguard back in the days when it was called VV - in the early 2000s. There were only mortars left.
        As for the Airborne Forces - a big question. Until recently, the Airborne Forces had only airborne equipment.
        1. Lara Croft
          Lara Croft 8 June 2020 17: 28 New
          0
          Quote: Alexey RA
          Quote: Lara Croft
          According to the Wiki, in service with the SV (probably there are a lot of them as part of the Airborne Forces, MP and ROSGVARDII) in total - 150 units

          There were only mortars left.

          Not at all. And 20 BG D-30.
          Until recently, the Airborne Forces had only airborne equipment.

          You inattentively read my link about the Gvozdika SPG ...
          "Carnation" is air transportable, that is, it can be transported by air An-12, IL-76, An-124. To reduce the height of self-propelled guns, track rollers from second to seventh during transportation can be lifted and secured using special devices.

          https://topwar.ru/4396-samohodnaya-gvozdika.html
  4. sabakina
    sabakina 7 June 2020 08: 46 New
    +4
    foreign components will be replaced with Russian counterparts with better performance
    I'm stupidly wondering what is foreign about "Acacia"? recourse
    1. KVU-NSVD
      KVU-NSVD 7 June 2020 08: 51 New
      +6
      Quote: sabakina
      I'm stupidly wondering what is foreign about "Acacia"?
      Reply

      Perhaps some of the units from the countries of the former Warsaw Pact, and perhaps something foreign was used for upgrades to zero.
    2. The leader of the Redskins
      The leader of the Redskins 7 June 2020 08: 52 New
      +3
      Most likely something from Bulgaria. There, by cooperation, small things were done for our artillery systems.
      1. abrakadabre
        abrakadabre 9 June 2020 07: 45 New
        0
        Most likely, we are talking about the complete localization in the territory of the Russian Federation of the production of components produced in different republics of the USSR.
    3. Zaurbek
      Zaurbek 7 June 2020 08: 53 New
      +3
      Maybe something from the Ukrainian is ..
    4. Grits
      Grits 7 June 2020 08: 53 New
      +8
      Quote: sabakina
      I'm stupidly wondering what is foreign about "Acacia"?

      I think that only the goal itself.
      1. sabakina
        sabakina 7 June 2020 08: 59 New
        +1
        Quote: Gritsa
        I think that only the goal itself.
        As Stirlitz would say - "There is no link." wink
        foreign components will be replaced by Russian counterparts
        Do you think the goals will be on Russian soil? wink
        1. Insurgent
          Insurgent 7 June 2020 09: 11 New
          +1
          Quote: sabakina
          Do you think the goals will be on Russian soil?

          I already wrote above that apparently it will be just that ...
        2. Grits
          Grits 7 June 2020 09: 44 New
          0
          Quote: sabakina
          Do you think the goals will be on Russian soil?

          If the targets will run and ride on Russian soil, then why not?
          1. Zaurbek
            Zaurbek 7 June 2020 09: 52 New
            -3
            Transfer to Rosguard.
            1. Lara Croft
              Lara Croft 7 June 2020 12: 50 New
              0
              Quote: Zaurbek
              Transfer to Rosguard.

              According to WIKI, ROSGUARD has no self-propelled artillery in service at all, and only 20 D-30s from towed ...
    5. novel66
      novel66 7 June 2020 09: 37 New
      -1
      name, maybe? lol hi
  5. Ross xnumx
    Ross xnumx 7 June 2020 08: 56 New
    -1
    In our 131 msd in the artillery regiment, such "main trunks" were back in the 80s. I would like to know the opinion of those who participated in modern combat. Does the Soviet development of the 70s meet the requirements of modern combat?
    This continuous modernization of Soviet artillery systems, aircraft, ships, tanks, casts a shadow of doubt on the words:

    How many “galoshes” can be modernized? Here you either need to present your modern "boots-walkers" to the world, or pay tribute to Soviet science, engineering and production ...
    Cabbage, of course, is a good thing, but you need to keep meat snacks in the house! 24 km is great. But the “coalition” 80 km with “a system of automated control of the processes of guiding the guns, target selection, navigation and positioning self-propelled guns” is much more pleasant for modern combat.
    hi
    1. seregatara1969
      seregatara1969 7 June 2020 09: 05 New
      +1
      The price of war is an important issue. The soldier doesn’t care what money the projectile will fly for. The bayonet is also outdated, but cheaply and angrily serves us
      1. V.I.P.
        V.I.P. 7 June 2020 09: 31 New
        +3
        Well, for a war with the Papuans will do. And for a war with an enemy that has normal counter-battery radars, drones, howitzers with a firing range of at least 40 km and the possibility of a "flurry of fire", then all these Acacia and Carnations are common targets .... The whole world is trying to get away from return fire by increasing the firing range of mortars , artillery, MLRS. BUT the Russian Federation goes its own way ... somewhere laughing
        1. il-z
          il-z 7 June 2020 11: 53 New
          0
          You assume a high probability of a total war with a solid front line ... with the whole world ... think in terms of the last century ... somewhere ...
        2. Lopatov
          Lopatov 7 June 2020 12: 49 New
          +1
          Quote: V.I.P.
          strive to evade return fire by increasing firing range

          What?
          laughing
          No, they don't go away from the "return fire".

          The range is increased not to hide from the enemy, but to increase the depth of fire.
      2. Ross xnumx
        Ross xnumx 7 June 2020 10: 31 New
        +4
        Quote: seregatara1969
        The bayonet is also outdated, but cheaply and angrily serves us

        The comparison is unsuccessful. Here the authors tell us:
        .these systems are currently undergoing systematic modernizationaimed at maximizing their technical qualities and adaptation to the requirements of modern combat.

        I don’t even know if it’s worthwhile to develop a sniper rifle with a range of 7 km for the conditions of modern combat or to rely on a bayonet? request
        All of these posts, praising the half-century-long quality of the installation, smack of hypocrisy. I understand when commanders of artillery units and subunits talk about this. At one time, the Tsar Cannon inspired fear in the adversary. As for the tactics of modern combat, I venture to suggest that not everyone dares to conduct artillery preparation, knowing that a minute after the first volley, return fire will "cover" him.
        That is why the increased range of the new self-propelled guns allows them to leave their firing positions and makes it difficult to detect guns (batteries, installations) ...
        None of them run in bast shoes or sneakers, sneakers prefer. And then the praises of eternal modernization are sung.
        Quote: V.I.P.
        for a war with an enemy that has normal counter-battery radars, drones, howitzers with a firing range of at least 40 km and the possibility of a "flurry of fire", then all these Acacia and Carnations are ordinary targets ...

        Let's not agree with this ... What the hell? Only "enemies of the people" write this ...
        And the user draws only the real situation.
        1. il-z
          il-z 7 June 2020 11: 40 New
          +1
          that not everyone dares to conduct artillery fire, knowing that a minute after the first salvo he will be "covered" by return fire.

          I think you shouldn't exaggerate, the option "in a minute" is overly optimistic, I would even assume it is fantastic / cowardly. The probability in 2-3 minutes is 2-3%, in 5 minutes 10-20%, and so on. Moreover, after 1-2 retaliatory strikes, there will be a hunt for reconnaissance stations art. fire and batteries working "in response". And I think in this area they will disappear for a long time, regardless of which enemy is opposing. Of course, I'm a jacket, but I understand that the proposal to switch to new ACS / tanks / aircraft ... sounds also naive, like "Let's all switch to new Mercs / Audi / Aurus ...". You can offer, you can even nod, yes yes let's change seats. Dreamers-dreamers, eh ...
          1. Ross xnumx
            Ross xnumx 7 June 2020 11: 47 New
            0
            Quote: il-z
            Of course, I am a jacket, but I understand that the proposal to switch to new ACS / tanks / aircraft ... sounds as naive as "Let's all switch to new Mercs / Audi / Aurus ..."

            And I do not understand why the first concern was the creation of a car for the guarantor, and in the background - the release of products that guarantee the quality of defense ...
            1. il-z
              il-z 7 June 2020 13: 43 New
              +2
              Option where we have modern weapons and
              car for the guarantor
              due to the hillock, unacceptable and humiliating.
              For everyone who "cannot sleep" because of the insufficient quality of defense capability, I suggest that the site administration go to the RF Ministry of Defense with a proposal to create a special account “To increase the quality of defense capability from (not indifferent) citizens of the RF”
    2. user1212
      user1212 7 June 2020 09: 49 New
      +1
      Quote: ROSS 42
      24 km is great. But the “coalition” 80 km

      Military history is not very positive about excessive gigantomania. Each goal has its own, most optimal, tool. There are tasks for the Akats, and the "coalition 80 km" have their own. For example, how do you get the Coalition by plane? To drag such a "fool" into the mountains is also a "special pleasure"
      1. Ross xnumx
        Ross xnumx 7 June 2020 10: 35 New
        0
        Quote: user1212
        To drag such a "fool" into the mountains is also a "special pleasure"

        There are tasks for artillery, there are tasks for missile forces, there are tasks for aviation. In any case, the commander must make such a decision that provides the most optimal result with minimal losses.
      2. Lara Croft
        Lara Croft 7 June 2020 12: 57 New
        +4
        Quote: user1212
        Quote: ROSS 42
        24 km is great. But the “coalition” 80 km

        There are tasks for the Akats, and the "coalition 80 km" have their own.

        You are not aware that, for example, "Msta-S" was created to replace, and not to enhance "Acacia" ....
        The "coalition" was supposed to replace all 152 mm self-propelled guns ....
    3. Lopatov
      Lopatov 7 June 2020 12: 38 New
      +3
      Quote: ROSS 42
      Does the Soviet development of the 70s meet the requirements of modern combat?

      No.
      Even then, they lagged behind the adversary, primarily in terms of controllability. An analogue of NATO's "Takfaer" was never made in the USSR.
      That is, in a real clash, we would lose a lot of artillery in the counter-battery.
    4. vredlo
      vredlo 7 June 2020 19: 13 New
      +1
      Well, the Amerov’s paladin is also in the 60s and they’re using nothing, haven’t replaced it yet, at least a couple of times they tried but the garbage came out, or are you those who, if we have something, fu is bad, lagged, etc., and if they have something else , you need to understand this, I hope not so
  6. acetophenon
    acetophenon 7 June 2020 10: 01 New
    0
    Quote: Zaurbek
    If the barrel is longer, then at the same range the dispersion will be less. Accuracy is higher.

    Yes? How is this related?
    1. Ross xnumx
      Ross xnumx 7 June 2020 10: 38 New
      +1
      Quote: acetophenon
      Yes? How is this related?

      It's not related. This is calculated:
    2. Lopatov
      Lopatov 7 June 2020 12: 44 New
      +3
      Quote: acetophenon
      Yes? How is this related?

      No way. This is not a rifle ...
  7. bars1
    bars1 7 June 2020 10: 19 New
    -1
    It's time to bury the "stewardess"
  8. Andrey Krasnoyarsky
    Andrey Krasnoyarsky 7 June 2020 11: 38 New
    +1
    "White Acacia bunches of fragrant all night long drove us crazy ..." Yeah, a 152-millimeter bunch of Acacia will drive anyone crazy if he lies next to him ...
  9. Operator
    Operator 7 June 2020 13: 37 New
    -4
    Acacia - manual loading, Msta - automatic machine the size of a barn.

    Both this and that - the last century. MLRS with controlled RS - our everything.
  10. nedgen
    nedgen 7 June 2020 14: 06 New
    0
    Guys, of course, this is not a question for you, but why can’t you change the trunk to a longer one? Of course, this will lead to the processing of the entire receiver group and recoil devices, but it is much cheaper than making and producing new self-propelled guns from scratch. The States are doing just that with their M109. For the umpteenth time, lengthen the barrel and divide the automatic loading system and the new FCS ...
    1. abrakadabre
      abrakadabre 9 June 2020 07: 56 New
      0
      Guys, of course, this is not a question for you, but why can’t you change the trunk to a longer one? Of course, this will lead to the processing of the entire receiver group and recoil devices
      As well as the weight distribution of the tower, the modernization of the rotary mechanism, the increase in the load on the chassis during the shot (greater recoil) with its subsequent modernization. The internal habitable volume will also change and it will be necessary to process it. An increase in the internal inhabited volume will require an increase in the weight of the reservation ... All of the above will increase the weight of the machine, which will require processing of the engine and transmission. And so in a circle.
  11. certero
    certero 8 June 2020 11: 51 New
    0
    Quote: Vlad T
    1-2 guns are sufficient with up to 10-15 rounds being used for simultaneously identified targets (as with a rifle one, quick shooting of clips and leaving) ... Today, one or two guns are always preferable to 4-6 or more without high-precision ammunition in action .. .

    And you some new word in military affairs. Let me have 6 guns, and you have 2 and we will fight.
    Modern artillery combat is primarily a massive application in a short time. so that the answer does not have time to fly. Therefore 8 will always be better than 4
  12. stankow
    stankow 8 June 2020 20: 44 New
    0
    I had a chance to shoot from ZiS-3. Easy, we arranged a contest with our calculations, we ran a race :) From 800 meters the tree was cut straight.
  13. stankow
    stankow 8 June 2020 20: 48 New
    0
    Quote: ROSS 42
    Quote: user1212
    To drag such a "fool" into the mountains is also a "special pleasure"

    There are tasks for artillery, there are tasks for missile forces, there are tasks for aviation. In any case, the commander must make such a decision that provides the most optimal result with minimal losses.

    No, no optimization is being done. There is no particular choice. A decision is made that ensures the fulfillment of the task with cash. They don’t think about losses. As you have to. With a normal task and normal luck, the losses should not be too much.
  14. stankow
    stankow 8 June 2020 20: 54 New
    0
    Quote: ROSS 42
    In our 131 msd in the artillery regiment, such "main trunks" were back in the 80s. I would like to know the opinion of those who participated in modern combat. Does the Soviet development of the 70s meet the requirements of modern combat?
    This continuous modernization of Soviet artillery systems, aircraft, ships, tanks, casts a shadow of doubt on the words:

    How many “galoshes” can be modernized? Here you either need to present your modern "boots-walkers" to the world, or pay tribute to Soviet science, engineering and production ...
    Cabbage, of course, is a good thing, but you need to keep meat snacks in the house! 24 km is great. But the “coalition” 80 km with “a system of automated control of the processes of guiding the guns, target selection, navigation and positioning self-propelled guns” is much more pleasant for modern combat.
    hi

    Why do divisional trunks 80 km? What are his tasks at such a depth? Let the karmarm take care of this. He has aviation and heavy artillery regiments. A division commander and 13 km is enough. Positions 3-5 km from the front line, so his artillery at a depth of 8-10 will be able to work, in the depths of the opposing division. Why does he need 80 km?
    1. stankow
      stankow 8 June 2020 21: 29 New
      0
      Please don't forbid! I am very interested in this site, I have been reading it for several years, "from cover to cover"! Especially about artillery. The artilleryman himself, the captain of the reserve. Only now I dared to make a few comments, if I confused something, so for the first time, I'll fix it! Greetings!
  15. stankow
    stankow 8 June 2020 21: 23 New
    0
    Quote: Vlad T
    "Here Ostap suffered" ... The usual battery artillery unit, with high precision, adjusting fire and rate of fire, 1-2 guns are sufficient with up to 10-15 shots at targets identified at the same time (as with a rifle, - quick shooting of the clip and leaving). .. Today, one or two guns are always preferable to 4-6 or more without high-precision ammunition in action ... The artillery method of delivering ammunition to the target stands out for its cheapness, with the introduction of corrected ammunition, a "golden" combination of price and quality of fire is created, - high-precision ammunition and creates such a combination. Therefore, ALL artillery weapons should go to high-precision ammunition ...

    And who will shoot at flat targets? And the shaft in front of his infantry (over another's counterattack), who will set? Which systems do not have high precision? Everyone has it. Even sometimes they find goals for them :) Well, for example, someone else's NP. Further - from 1/4 to 2 ammunition, runaway, on company and platoon points, on areas of concentration, advancement, on other people's AOP. Hundreds of boxes, dozens of tons ... On hand, for a combat day :)
  16. Tank jacket
    Tank jacket 9 June 2020 20: 59 New
    -1
    Quote: novel xnumx
    and generally speaking!
    howitzers 2S3M "Acacia" during the overhaul of guns of this type

    gun or howitzer ??

    Roman, hello, before the USSR, the USSR had guns and howitzers before 1991, but the bottom line ... Maybe it’s just economically squeezing liberoids? And then ideologically (to prohibit the adoption of Russian children to all liberals, to prohibit surrogate motherhood)