The defeat of the 13th Soviet Army in Northern Tavria


British tank captured by the Red Army near Kakhovka. 1920


Smoot. 1920 year.100 years ago, on June 6, 1920, the Northern Tavrian operation began. In the first week of the Wrangel army's offensive, the Reds lost almost all of Northern Tavria.

Plans and forces of the parties


Having reorganized the army in late April - May 1920, the white command decided that it was time to go on the offensive. The moment was favorable. After a series of defeats from the Polish army on the Western Front, the Soviet command postponed the assault on Crimea. The most combat-ready forces and reserves of the Red Army were diverted to Ukraine and Belarus. In addition, the white Crimea, clogged with refugees, was threatened by hunger, it was necessary to seize the food resources of Northern Tavria. The Russian army of Wrangel needed resources - people, food, etc., to continue the struggle. To do this, it was necessary to capture new areas. The maximum plan is Kuban and Don, the minimum is Tavria. There were very few cavalry in the army - only 2 thousand sabers (the horse-drawn squad was abandoned during the evacuation), guns and machine guns, but there was no other choice but to attack.

At the front line, the Wrangelites had about 25-30 thousand soldiers, over 120 guns and about 450 machine guns. The Russian army was consolidated into four corps: the 1st and 2nd Army under the command of Kutepov and Slashchev, the Consolidated Corps of Pisarev and the Don Corps of Abramov. The advantage of the White Guards was the presence of a white Black Sea fleet. He supported the defense of the peninsula and made it possible to land troops on the flanks of the enemy. The White Fleet, under the command of Vice Admiral Sablin, included 2 battleships - the flagship General Alekseev (formerly Emperor Alexander III) and Rostislav, 3 cruisers, 11 destroyers, 8 gunboats. A total of about 50 warships and 150 different support vessels. In May 1920, a white fleet fired at Mariupol, Temryuk, Genichesk and Taganrog. Near Ochakovo raider destroyer "Hot". The White Guards threatened communications between Odessa, Kherson and Nikolaev, and sabotaged groups landed on the coast.

On June 2, 1920, Wrangel set combat missions for the troops. Slashchev’s corps was removed from the defense, boarded ships in Feodosia and landed in the area of ​​Kirillovka, on the right flank. The Sushchites were to cause panic in the rear of the Perekop group of the enemy, intercept the Melitopol Railway, create a threat to Melitopol. In the future, attack along with the Pisarev Consolidated Corps. Pisarev’s corps struck from Chongar positions on Genichesk. The 1st corps of General Kutepov struck on the left flank, in the Perekop direction, was to go to the Dnieper in the area from the mouth to Kakhovka. The Don Corps was in reserve in the Dzhankoy area. If the operation was successful, the donors had to go from the Chongar crossing to Melitopol and further to Nogaysk and Berdyansk. With decisive success, the Don corps along the Sea of ​​Azov made its way to the Don. Thus, Wrangel delivered the main blow in the general direction to the Don, three corps were concentrated on the right flank.

In front of the front of the Wrangel army were the troops of the 13th Soviet army under the command of I. Kh. Spiders (after the success of the Wrangel troops he was removed, the army was led by R. Eideman). The 13th army in May 1920, before the advance of the enemy, was strengthened to 19 thousand soldiers (including 4 thousand sabers), received the 2nd Cavalry Division named after Blinov (from the Budenny Cavalry Army). The 46th division was defending in the Genichesk area, the 52nd, 3rd rifle divisions, the Latvian divisions, the 85th and 124th rifle brigades were defending on the Perekop direction. In reserve were Blinov's cavalry division and the cavalry brigade. There were also separate small parts and units.

The defeat of the 13th Soviet Army in Northern Tavria
Battleship "General Alekseev" in the dry dock. 1919

Trooper Slashchev and the breakthrough of the defense of the 13th army


The start time of the operation and the landing site of the 2nd Army Corps were kept secret. The landing party found out about the landing point already at sea. Prior to this, rumors about the preparation of the landing operation in the region of Novorossiysk and Odessa were actively spread. In addition, on the day of the landing, a demonstration was held on the left flank, in the vicinity of the village of Khorly. There, a detachment of ships shelled the coast, diverting the attention of the enemy. June 5, 1920, the landing was loaded onto ships (10 thousand soldiers, 50 guns and 2 armored cars) in Feodosia. Through the Kerch Strait, the fleet passed to the Sea of ​​Azov and landed the sugars in the area of ​​Kirillovka. The troops successfully landed, despite a severe storm. The Red Command hastily put forward reserves here, but obviously insufficient (about 2 thousand people). Slashchev’s corps overturned them quite easily.

On June 6, 1920, the Wrangel army launched an offensive along the entire front. After a short artillery training, Pisarev’s corps supported by tanks and armored trains went forward. At the same time, the sweets in the rear of the Reds went to the railway. Attacked from the front and threatened from the rear, the Red Army left the Genic fortified area and retreated to Rozhdestvensky. The Reds lost several hundred people prisoners. The Wrangelites took the city of Genichesk, their armored trains advanced to Rykovo station.

Meanwhile, parts of Kutepov stormed the Perekop positions. Tanks and armored cars destroyed wire fences. Here the Red Army fought fiercely. The Latvian arrows were especially steadfast. In the area of ​​Preobrazhenka and Pervokonstantinovka villages, red artillerymen damaged several enemy tanks. However, the Wrangelites broke through the enemy defenses. The Reds retreated. The 2nd cavalry division of General Morozov (about 2 thousand drafts) was sent into the breakthrough.

Recollecting themselves after the first defeat, the Reds counterattacked with the forces of two rifle divisions and the cavalry brigade. The Markov division was squeezed. The corps command threw their reserve into battle - the Drozdovites. Markov and Drozdov divisions restored the situation. At that time, the white cavalry reached Chaplinka, repelling the enemy’s counterattack. The Reds (new forces) went forward again. In the area of ​​Pervokonstantinovka there was a stubborn battle, whites suffered heavy losses. So, almost all the commanders of the battalion-company level were killed by the Drozdovites. By night Pervokonstantinovka remained with the Red Army.

June 7 stubborn fighting continued. Slushchevtsy went to the Melitopol railway, captured up to 1 thousand prisoners. Pisarev Corps continued to move, occupied a number of villages. The Reds tried to counterattack the Consolidated Corps with the help of Blinov's division (2500 sabers). The Reds recaptured Novo-Mikhailovka, but by the evening they were knocked out. After a fierce battle, the Drozdovites again occupied Pervokonstantinovka. The Red Army retreated to Vladimirovka. The Drozdov division and the 2nd cavalry division pursued the enemy and occupied Vladimirovka. Part of the red group was pressed to Sivash in the area of ​​Vladimirovka. After a little resistance, the Reds folded weapon. 1,5 thousand people were captured. The White Guards captured 5 guns and 3 armored cars. Meanwhile, the Markov and Kornilov divisions held back the attacks of another part of the Perekop Red Group.

Thus, during the two-day battle, the Wrangel army broke through the enemy’s defenses and entered the operational space. Kutepov’s corps alone captured 3,5 people, captured 25 guns and 6 armored cars. The White Guards suffered significant losses. However, the battle continued. So, on the night of June 7-8, the red cavalry, using the extended position of the 3rd cavalry division of the enemy (on foot), broke into Novo-Mikhailovka and captured the division headquarters, headed by its commander A. Revishin.


Map source: Kakurin N.E., Vatsetis I.I. Civil war. 1918–1921

The capture of Melitopol


On June 9, 1920, Wrangel ordered Slashchev to take Melitopol, then send cavalry to the north-west, threatening the rear of the red group of troops retreating from Sivash. Pisarev’s corps, reinforced by the 2nd Don division, was to defeat the enemy in the area of ​​the villages of Rozhdestvenskoye and Petrovskoye. Kutepov’s troops were given the task to go to the area of ​​the Dnieper mouth - Alyoshka - Kakhovka. The Don corps advanced to Novo-Alekseyevka, remaining in reserve.

By evening, parts of Slashchev reached Melitopol. Pisarev’s corps was slowly moving forward, Kutepov’s troops pursued the defeated enemy. On June 10, parts of Slashchev took the capital of Northern Tavria - Melitopol. However, after several days there were stubborn battles for the city. The Soviet command pulled up reserves from Aleksandrovka and tried with all its might to recapture the city. The sackcloths had to tight. The consolidated corps fought with the 2nd cavalry division of the Reds near the village of Rozhdestvenskoye. On June 11, the Reds counterattacked again and drove the Kubans to Novo-Alekseevka. Then the Wrangelites went on the attack, threw the enemy to the north and in the evening occupied Rozhdestvensky. On June 12, Pisarev’s corps occupied Petrovskoye. At the same time, the Kuban and Don people unauthorizedly acquired horses, requisitioning them from local peasants. The orders of the commander and commanders did not act on them, the robberies did not stop. In a battle, the command could not resort to stricter measures. But the White Army spontaneously received cavalry, which brought positive results at the forefront.

Retreating from Perekop to Kakhovka, the troops of the 13th Army were replenished with troops that went to the Polish Front. The Soviet command deployed them to save the 13th army. On June 10, regiments of the 15th Infantry Division (4,5 thousand bayonets and 800 sabers) advanced to the area of ​​the village of Chernaya Dolina. The Latvian and 52nd divisions, with the support of the fresh 15th division, launched a counterattack again, dropping the white cavalry. The Drozdov and Kornilov divisions withstood the attacks of the Reds and began to cover the enemy, who had wedged into their positions. The White Command pulled up the Markov Division and the 1st Cavalry Division. On the morning of June 11, the White Guards struck with all their might. The Reds could not stand it and rolled back to the Dnieper. By evening, the whites reached the approaches to Kakhovka and Alyoshka. On June 12, the 1st Corps reached the Dnieper and took a quick blow to Kakhovka. It was captured 1,5 thousand Red Army soldiers. However, the main forces of the Reds managed to leave the Dnieper and destroyed the crossing. By June 13, whites took positions along the Dnieper from the mouth to Kakhovka.

At the same time, stubborn battles continued in the region of Melitopol. Slashchev held out until the other corps developed an offensive, and the Reds, who overlaid the whites in Melitopol on three sides, were forced to retreat. Kutepov sent the Drozdov Division and the 2nd Cavalry Division to the northeast to take up positions west of Melitopol. The consolidated and the Don corps developed an offensive to the east. The defeated troops of the Soviet 3rd and 46th Infantry, 2nd Cavalry Divisions retreated to the Orekhov area. On June 19, 1920, the Wrangel army entered the Berdyansk-Orekhov-Dnepr line. Wrangel’s headquarters was moved to Melitopol.

Thus, during the week of the advance of the Russian army of Wrangel, the Reds lost almost all of Northern Tavria. The 13th Soviet Army suffered a heavy defeat (some units lost up to 75% of their composition), having lost only 7-8 thousand people, about 30 guns and 2 armored trains. The White Guards seized army reserves in the Perekop area. A breakthrough into the rich Northern Tavria provided the White Army with food, horse-drawn stock and other resources.

However, the Wrangels failed to break further. The White Army was forced to stop. It was necessary to replenish losses (Kutepov’s corps lost a quarter of the squad), tighten the rear and secure the occupied areas. Affected by the lack of strategic reserves and powerful cavalry. There was nothing to develop the first success. It was not possible to completely destroy the 13th army. At this time, the Soviet command hastily restored and strengthened the 13th army, the number of which brought up to 41 thousand soldiers (including 11 thousand cavalry). Three new divisions, two brigades and the horse-drawn corps of Zhloba were sent against Wrangel. A counterattack was being prepared in order to clear Tavria and Crimea from the whites. The new commander of the 13th Army was appointed I.P. Uborevich.
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  1. Olgovich 5 June 2020 06: 13 New
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    Time for glorious deeds Russian army!

    If it were not for the unification of the Polish and Red Russophobes in a single impulse against Russia, then everything could have been different and we would have lived today RUSSIAN Odessa, Nikolaev, Aleksandrovsky, Yekaterinoslav, Elisavegrad, and there they would recall a Zhovtoblakitny rag as a funny joke ......

    And again, Latvians are here, Latvians are there ...

    and in just a couple of months they will throw red bows. they will stick the bourgeois colors of their supposedly Latvian "enemies" -bourgeois "and go to them ... to serve! Nothing sacred, all for grandma ...belay negative
    1. Finches 5 June 2020 06: 30 New
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      +35
      Greetings! hi This is a consequence, and the reason lies in the essence ... That's what Slashchev himself wrote in his book "Crimea 2020" -

      “With regard to the ideology of these units, little can be said. There was complete instability. The soldier mass was indifferent, the lower officers were corrupted during the Civil War by their superiors and, without an exact slogan that the masses would follow, he hesitated; he kept this officers in the Volunteer army only fear of reprisals of the Reds. Distrust of the top command staff grew - robberies and binges of people of this composition with throwing huge sums were in plain sight, and the younger command staff followed in the footsteps of the senior and also began to collect gifts from the "grateful population", making even more devastation and even more embittered the population.The wealthy Cossacks, who suffered financially in 1918, wanted to replenish their losses and sent the looted property in cars to their villages and drove the horses in the same herds. battle, because not a single Cossack wanted to leave behind his horse with "a saddle to which his bags were confined, where, obviously, a sufficient amount of values ​​lay."

      The White Army had neither ideology nor purpose ... Anti-people gang! Most importantly, many leaders of the white movement were ready to give half of Russia to the concession of the Western bourgeoisie for help! So on the lands of New Russia about which you are writing there would have been some Vaterland ... But the Bolsheviks eventually gathered the country back and this is a historical fact!
      1. Olgovich 5 June 2020 07: 27 New
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        Quote: Finches
        Greetings! This is a consequence, and the reason lies in the essence ... That's what Slashchev himself wrote in his book "Crimea 2020" -

        Hello, Eugene!

        It's funny to talk about a book. published in .... USSR in 1924 d under the "editors" of the Cheka and other structures.

        or say that he wrote what he wanted with ... "freedom of speech" of advice? lol moreover, being a drug addict and an alcoholic? Yes, even offended Wrangel?
        Quote: Finches
        The White Army had neither ideology nor purpose ... Anti-people gang!

        Purpose -return of power to the people, which he was treacherously taken away by bandits in January 1918 by dispersal of the Constitutional Court.

        Let me just remind you FACT: NOBODY, NEVER, NEVER, so-called. "ow power" in a nationwide equal free competitive election -did not choose. For ALL of its 70 years, this anti-people’s authority did NOT FULFILL such elections — it was afraid to a hiccup.

        Quote: Finches
        Most importantly, many leaders of the white movement were ready to give half of Russia to the concession of the Western bourgeoisie for help!

        FACT: the Bolsheviks gave concessions to the west half of Russia: even the Lena Prikomsky was commanded with them the very bourgeoisie who shot the workers 20 years ago. Shame ....

        FACT: The Bolsheviks cut Russia into 5 million km2 - no invader ever dreamed of
        Quote: Finches
        So on the lands of New Russia about which you write there would be some Vaterland ..

        THOUSAND YEARS of the country gathered white, and the red ones cut it, look out the window!
        Quote: Finches
        .And the Bolsheviks eventually gathered the country back and this is a historical fact!

        I look out the window, there is nothing! And you?
        Yes, and by the way, what have you collected? To Russia, which side?

        This is when the Ukronist Nazi Gruushevsky associates were invited to make Russian uk..raintsev, and from Nikolaev ...MYKOLYIV? Thank you, "yes., Bravo !.
        1. Krasnoyarsk 5 June 2020 10: 04 New
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          +20
          Quote: Olgovich

          Let me just remind you FACT: NOBODY, NEVER, NEVER, so-called. "ow power" in the popular equal free competitive elections, did not choose.

          So Nicholas- || also no one chose. But he ruled the country. As history has shown, it sucks rules. Otherwise, the Bolsheviks would not have received popular support.
          Quote: Olgovich

          FACT: the Bolsheviks gave the concession to the west half of Russia: even the Lena Priory was commanded by the very bourgeois who shot the workers 20 years ago. Shame ....

          The Bolsheviks did not give anything to anyone. You heard a ring, but you don’t know where it is. The Bolsheviks, for lack of their own, were forced to invite foreign experts. The tsarist government was not able to prepare for the "booming industry" the necessary amount of engineering.
          Quote: Olgovich

          FACT: The Bolsheviks cut Russia into 5 million km2 - no invader ever dreamed of

          fool
          1. Olgovich 5 June 2020 10: 36 New
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            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            So Nicholas- || also no one chose. But he ruled the country. As history has shown, it sucks rules.

            To school, ignoramus: the Romanovs were chosen at the Zesmky Cathedral. Good rules: people grew by 50% in 24 years, starvation, freedom of speech, thought, assembly, elections, parties disappeared. The fastest growth rate of production,

            Yours to all this, as to Moscow m, yeah !.
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            Otherwise, the Bolsheviks would not have received popular support.

            belay fool lol
            NOBODY, NEVER, ANYWHERE the so-called "ow power" in the popular equal free competitive elections, did not choose. For ALL of its 70 years, this anti-people’s authority has NOT FAILED such elections — it was afraid to a liquid mass ...
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            The Bolsheviks did not give anything to anyone. You I heard a ring, but you don’t know where he is. Bolsheviks, for lack of their

            1. Poke, you will be to your wife, yes !.

            2. Go to SCHOOL, ignoramus!

            Amur Mining Joint-Stock Company (England) - exploration, development and processing of iron, silver-lead, zinc and other ores.

            "Ayan Corporation" (England) - development of gold mines.

            "Lena Golffields." Joint-Stock Company. (England) - mining of gold and other metals.

            Bringer & Co. ("Aunt"). (England) - the right to search, exploration and development of ores of the Tetyukhe deposit.
            etc.

            ONCE AGAIN: at the Lena mine, the same bourgeois that they rifled 20 years ago, but already under .... "people's" power
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            Quote: Olgovich

            FACT: The Bolsheviks cut Russia into 5 million km2 - no invader ever dreamed of


            This is just a fact. the territory of today's Russia is YOU cut it off in 1917-1940. 5 million km2

            Betrayal.
            1. Krasnoyarsk 5 June 2020 11: 54 New
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              Quote: Olgovich
              The Romanovs were selected at the Zesmky Cathedral.

              Nicholas 2 selected (!?) At the Zemsky (?) Cathedral?
              And you, by the hour, do not write from the "kanopachikovoy dacha"?
              Quote: Olgovich
              starvation disappeared

              Oh really?
              = The famine of 1840 is described in the story "The Vale" of Nikolai Semenovich Leskov.
              In 1842, the government found that crop failures were repeated every 6-7 years, continuing for two years in a row. During the second half of the 1873th century, the famine caused by the crop failures of 1880, 1883 and XNUMX was especially brutal. =
              = In 1891-1892, 16 provinces of European Russia and the Tobolsk province in Siberia with a population of 35 million were apprehended by famine; especially then the Voronezh, Nizhny Novgorod, Kazan, Samara, Tambov provinces suffered. In the Volga region, the eastern regions of the chernozem zone, 20 provinces with a 40 millionth peasant population, suffered from a catastrophic famine. In a less extensive area, but not with less disaster intensity, famine repeated in 1892-1893.
              Quote: Olgovich
              2. Go to SCHOOL, ignoramus!

              I went. And what did you find out? You will not like. Even your favorite Gazprom in Russia does not belong. I’m not going to talk about other large and not very companies, you yourself know. So, whose cow would moo.
              Quote: Olgovich

              This is just a fact. the territory of today's Russia is YOU cut it off in 1917-1940. 5 million km2

              No, it's not us. It is you, liberal democrats, i.e. not communists and anti-communists, she was so robbed of.
              So, don’t need to be healthy.
              1. Olgovich 5 June 2020 13: 39 New
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                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                Nicholas 2 selected (!?) At the Zemsky (?) Cathedral?
                And you, by the hour, do not write from the "kanopachikovoy dacha"?

                1. Yes, the Romanovs were elected there at the Zemsky Sobor in 1613 ..
                2. only the poorly understood from special schools do not know this

                YOUR-NOBODY NEVER ELECTED ANYWHERE in the election! They were not with you!
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                Oh really?
                = The famine of 1840 is described in the story "The Vale" of Nikolai Semenovich Leskov.
                In 1842, the government found that crop failures were repeated through

                Yes, under Nicholas II, starvation mortality left Russia forever.

                She returned there with YOU, the most terrible famine deaths unprecedented in the history of mankind, with cannibalism that blocked all of Africa and Asia.
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                I went. And what did you find out? You will not like. Even your favorite Gazprom in Russia does not belong. I’m not going to talk about other large and not very companies, you yourself know. So, whose cow would moo.

                Learned, finally, how the Bolsheviks HOMELAND traded in concessions?
                Maladets!
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                No, it's not us. It is you, liberal democrats, i.e. not communists and anti-communists, she was so robbed of.
                So, don’t need to be healthy.
                And again, to school, ignoramus: today's borders of Russia of the 17th century cut by YOU from 1917 to 1940when you baked the STATE of Kazakhstan / Ukraine on its territory, like hot cakes, and even the RIGHT OF EXIT they were given.

                So they came out.

                Who cut it all and gave it? Traitors.
                1. Krasnoyarsk 5 June 2020 14: 46 New
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                  Quote: Olgovich
                  1. Yes, the Romanovs were elected there at the Zemsky Sobor in 1613 ..

                  I’ll repeat the question especially confused - specifically, who was choosing Nikolai the Bloody, when and where? And for how long?
                  If your brain is not able to answer this simple question, then ... go shoot yourself. From a slingshot. Take a bullet in the toilet.
                  1. Olgovich 5 June 2020 16: 56 New
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                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    I’ll repeat the question especially confused - specifically, who was choosing Nikolai the Bloody, when and where? And for how long?

                    In 1613 and forever.

                    Got it from the third time-not? fool
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    If your brain is not able to answer this simple question, then ... go shoot yourself. From a slingshot. Pwow take in the toilet.

                    poke your lol "wife" lol

                    I recognize the communist by toilet vocabulary. He is not capable of rising above. lol

                    Faina Ranevskaya about this: "
                    I wanted to send you, but I see, you are already from there! "
                    1. Krasnoyarsk 5 June 2020 17: 29 New
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                      Quote: Olgovich
                      In 1613 and forever.

                      Nikolai ??? !!! In 1613 ??? !!!
                      Long-liver, however? Or do you have a headache?
                      Okay. These are all jokes. But seriously, then you, Olgovich, need to get hung up and go to normal logic.
                      December 12, 1937 there were elections to the USSR Supreme Council based on the Constitution of 1936. By the way, read it. And compare with the current one. An unbiased person will immediately give preference to the 1936 Constitution.
                      1. Olgovich 6 June 2020 08: 30 New
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                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Nikolai ??? !!! In 1613 ??? !!!
                        Long-liver, however? Or do you have a headache?

                        It didn’t come from ..... FOURTH TIME belay fool request
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        But seriously, then you, Olgovich, need to get hung up and go to normal logic.
                        December 12, 1937 there were elections to the USSR Supreme Council based on the Constitution of 1936. By the way, read it.

                        1. Which parties and independent candidates participated in these "elections" and how many votes they got, how many and in which newspapers they were published, where they spoke on the radio and in meetings, list them quickly.

                        What, nobody and nothing? What are these elections? fool
                        Do you realize WHAT the word “CHOICE” means in Russian? Looks like no.

                        2. 1937 is the year of mass swelling from starvation and death from starvation of people, wild bursts of food, people are swollen and undressed, in cities there is no housing, they are not building it).
                        Half a million were shot, but still, it’s not enough ..

                        These are just FACTS.

                        Now tell me unbiased, CONSCIENT, (if even a drop remains) how many 0,00% of the votes REAL election scored would arrange it all and even in PEACE YEARS.

                        So they managed the liquid ...
                      2. Krasnoyarsk 6 June 2020 10: 06 New
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                        +2
                        When, in 1613, they chose Nicholas-2, laughing wassat tongue
                        1. Which parties and independent candidates participated in these "elections" and how many votes, how many and in which newspapers they were published, where they spoke on the radio and meetings, list, quickly.
                        What, nobody and nothing? What are these elections?
                        Do you realize WHAT the word “CHOICE” means in Russian? Looks like no.
                        But, to your shame, you have no idea how the elections were held in the USSR, you are illiterate our spiteful critic.
                        1. Representatives of all republics and autonomies, all walks of life, all nationalities, religions were to be elected to the Supreme Council of the USSR.
                        For this, a quota was allocated to each of the listed entities: so many workers, so many peasants, intellectuals, military, such and such an education, social status, party affiliation, gender, age, etc., etc., etc.
                        The entities themselves (republics, autonomies) gave quotas, according to the same parameters, for the region. Etc. And if the order comes to a certain enterprise to present a candidate for election to the Supreme Council: a man, 30-40 years old, secondary education, non-partisan, worker, married. That is, 2-3 such candidates are found at the enterprise, and then, at an OPEN PARTY (not only party members are present and have the right to vote, but also non-partisan!) Meetings, these candidates are discussed and ELECTED (!!!) by a majority of votes. People KNOW whom they choose.
                        As a result, all sectors of society are represented in the USSR Armed Forces.
                        And today in the Duma what layers of society are represented?
                        Lawyers, journalists, "economists", athletes, artists. All!!!
                        Those. those who were heavier than a spoon in their hands no longer held anything.
                        How were they elected? And simply, a certain uncle makes up a “party list”, and Olgovich votes for this list, which he is not aware of.
                        So which election system is better?
                        ANSWER!!! QUICKLY!!!
                      3. Olgovich 6 June 2020 11: 06 New
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                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        secondary education, non-partisan, worker, married. That is, 2-3 such candidates are found at the enterprise, and then, at an OPEN PARTY (not only party members are present and have the right to vote, but also non-partisan!) Meetings, these candidates are discussed and ELECTED (!!!) by a majority of votes. People KNOW whom they choose.

                        1. I deeply spoil all YOUR desks. meetings.

                        2. WHERE is there in Stalin election of deputies on .... a party meeting with a bunch of singing along and frightened?

                        : deputies, read Stalin’s constitution, elected at polling stations by ALL the peoplerather than party meetings

                        WHERE is his CHOICE, a talker ?!

                        3. I am interested in meetings OTHER, opposition parties, their candidates and the press, INDEPENDENT Candidates



                        You did NOT answer a simple question:
                        1937 is the year of mass swelling from starvation and death due to hunger of people, wild bursts of food, people are swollen and undressed, in cities there is no housing, they are not building it).

                        Half a million were shot, but still, it’s not enough ..

                        These are just FACTS.

                        Now tell me unbiased, CONSCIENTLY, (if at least a drop remains) how much 0,00% of the votes in this election would be gained by those who arranged it all and even in PEACE YEARS.


                        Underpants
  • Krasnoyarsk 6 June 2020 13: 00 New
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    +1
    Quote: Olgovich

    2. WHERE in the Stalin Constitution there is about the election of deputies at the .... party meeting with a handful of singers and scared?

    Yes, brain degradation is evident. At OPEN party meetings (and this is essentially a meeting of the labor collective) where no one drives anyone, everyone who wants to come voluntarily, they elect not deputies, but candidates for deputies. And when in the elections olgovichs of all stripes will vote for this candidate, then they become deputies.
    Quote: Olgovich
    WHERE is his CHOICE, a talker ?!

    He had already CHOSEN from several candidates at a meeting, and at a polling station he had only REDUCED his choice.
    True, with your level of intelligence, even this simple one cannot be mastered.
    Quote: Olgovich

    3. I am interested in the meetings of OTHER, opposition parties, their candidates and the press, INDEPENDENT candidates

    And what the hell is a deputy who does not depend on me? Today they are all in the Duma sitting neither on you nor on me, and so what? Are the people very satisfied?
    And the opposition parties were at first ideologically defeated in all kinds of discussions (if you know how to read and are interested, you will find all these discussions in detail), then their leaders obeyed publicly, were accepted into the All-Union Communist Party of the Bolsheviks and again embarked on their anti-people course. I had to isolate them.
    Quote: Olgovich

    You did NOT answer a simple question:

    What punishment did the king suffer for the famine of 1891-1892? For the millions of dead peasants?
    Not biased and honestly. And fast!
  • Olgovich 6 June 2020 15: 02 New
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    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    Yes, brain degradation is evident. At OPEN party meetings (and this is essentially a meeting of the labor collective) where no one drives anyone, everyone who wants to come voluntarily, they elect not deputies, but candidates for deputies.

    Not candidates are "elected", but candidate A, appointed ("proposed") by a member of the district / regional committee and so on.

    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    And when in the elections olgovichs of all stripes will vote for this candidate, then they become deputies.

    Yes, I spit on YOUR "candidate", I need Candidates from DIFFERENT , organizations, parties, with DIFFERENT programs, where they crush this deceitful power for its millions of deaths
    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    He already CHOOSE at a meeting of several candidates, and at a polling station he only legalized own choice.
    True, with your level of intelligence, even this simple one cannot be mastered.


    WHERE in the constitution is SUCH choice and legalization written, ignoramus? belay fool

    Selects ALL people in the polling stations, not a bunch of labor at the meeting — read the constitution
    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    And what the hell is a deputy who does not depend on me?

    it does not depend on your party, but depends on PEOPLE who have entrusted to it
    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    And the opposition parties were at first ideologically defeated in all kinds of discussions (if you know how to read and are interested, you will find all these discussions in detail), then their leaders obeyed publicly, were accepted into the All-Union Communist Party of the Bolsheviks and again embarked on their anti-people course. I had to isolate them.

    Scratch this nude at your party meeting to your degenerates.

    parties and Russian leaders in exile did not agree with anything.

    Isn’t your horseradish my party that kills, lies, dulls and grows brutal?
    I want another, smarter and her candidate or independent candidate!

    And this is mine RIGHT to chooseenshrined in the constitution.

    And it’s not someone’s dog business to deprive him

    The choice is when the bulletin is not one, but several candidates. Russian language - LEARN !!
    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    What punishment did the king suffer for the famine of 1891-1892? For the millions of dead peasants?
    Not biased and honestly. And fast!

    Put the king and ... power on ... one board ?!

    And then what is the power ... better?

    And, yes: With Nicholas, NO starvation. With "narvlast" in the middle of the 20th century -more than ten million starvation deaths with cannibalism- carefully hidden by the authorities.

    The difference has come, no? fool

    PS again: poke your wife, you are told a thousand times!
    Poked already?

    And How? lol
  • Krasnoyarsk 6 June 2020 15: 57 New
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    Quote: Olgovich

    Not candidates are "elected", but candidate A, appointed ("proposed") by a member of the district / regional committee and so on.

    Only absolutely ignorant and stupid people can argue without knowing the topic.
    I repeat especially for the olgovichi.
    Yes, the meeting was offered 2-3 candidates already considered from all sides at the party committee. Imagine that you are the secretary of the party committee. You must submit candidates for consideration by the labor collective meeting. What candidates do you propose? Those that the assembly will reject? And who will call you smart? So you will look for such a person, or rather two, so that they will probably vote for one of them. After all, they people know each other well. Because they work together. Deputies of the Armed Forces of the USSR were REPRESENTATIVES OF LABOR COLLECTIVES. Factories, factories, institutes, design bureaus, collective farms. Moreover, do not forget that then the deputies of the USSR Armed Forces went only to the session, and the rest of the time they worked where they were elected. Do you often see a deputy of the Duma whom you have elected? Can you ask him questions, express your opinion? And in the USSR, he, at the workplace, yesterday returned only from the session. Or tomorrow he’s going to the session, and you can give the order. And they gave, but not everyone from himself, but worked out the orders for the deputies again at the meetings of the labor collective.
    Quote: Olgovich

    Yes, I spit on YOUR “candidate”, I need candidates from DIFFERENT, organizations, parties, with DIFFERENT programs, where they crush this false power for its millions of deaths

    Yes, I know! Like you, or rather your owners, we need a swan, cancer and pike in our control. To keep things from going. So that all the energy in the debate - how best (?) - is gone. But the matter is standing still. The main thing is that .., there was an alternative!
    Your head reminds me of a slop bucket.
    Quote: Olgovich

    WHERE in the constitution is SUCH choice and legalization written, ignoramus?

    In Soviet, dumbass!
    Quote: Olgovich

    FOLLOWS the people in the precincts, and not a handful of the work team at the meeting — read the constitution

    Well dumb !!! (M. Zadornov)
    How can you choose one out of 10 candidates if you do not know any of them !!! ???
    And you will easily choose one of the three that you personally know, because you work with him nearby.
    Quote: Olgovich

    it does not depend on your party, but depends on PEOPLE who have entrusted to it

    I repeat the question - how does the Duma deputy for whom you voted, which you, at best, once saw on television, depend on you?
    Quote: Olgovich
    And this is my RIGHT to choose, enshrined in the constitution.

    Do I argue? You really have the right to choose a cat in a poke. But even you don’t put the cat in this bag.
    Enough, you're tired of me already with your boundless stupidity.
  • Olgovich 6 June 2020 17: 01 New
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    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    Yes, the meeting was offered 2-3 candidates already considered from all sides at the party committee. Imagine that you are the secretary of the party committee. You must submit candidates for consideration by the labor collective meeting. What candidates do you propose? Those that the assembly will reject? And who will call you smart? So you will look for such a person, or rather two, so that they will probably vote for one of them. After all, they people know each other well. Because they work together. Deputies of the Armed Forces of the USSR were REPRESENTATIVES OF LABOR COLLECTIVES. Factories, factories, institutes, design bureaus, collective farms. Moreover, do not forget that then the deputies of the USSR Armed Forces went only to the session, and the rest of the time they worked where they were elected. Do you often see a deputy of the Duma whom you have elected? Can you ask him questions, express your opinion? And in the USSR, he, at the workplace, yesterday returned only from the session. Or tomorrow he’s going to the session, and you can give the order. And they gave, but not everyone from himself, but worked out the orders for the deputies again at the meetings of the labor collective.

    I spit on your party committee and staff, didn’t it?

    This is nothing on the background 160 million voters, who have the right to elect not what your oh team will slip, but OTHER, OWN, NOT YOUR candidate!
    And at the ELECTIONS at the polls, and not in the party meeting
    Got it, no?
    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    Yes, I know! Like you, or rather your owners, we need a swan, cancer and pike in our control. To keep things from going. So that all the energy in the debate - how best (?) - is gone. But the matter is standing still. The main thing is that .., there was an alternative!

    It is not up to YOUR DOGS to decide for EVERYTHING — what’s the matter, and what’s not the matter, how it’s right, but how it’s not. You are NOTHING to call ANYTHING, and your rights are no more than mine.
    Got it, no?
    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    Well dumb !!! (M. Zadornov)
    How can you choose one out of 10 candidates if you do not know any of them !!! ???
    And you will easily choose one of the three that you personally know, because you work with him nearby.

    IT IS NOT YOUR DOGS to decide who I will offer and whom the people will choose. GIVE ME TEN candidates, not ONE OF YOUR TUPAR,
    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    WHERE in the constitution is SUCH choice and legalization written, ignoramus?

    In Soviet dumbass!

    To the table, liar! On the table is an article where in the elections .... SPECIFY one designated tebil, and DO NOT CHOOSE from many worthy.
    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    I repeat the question - how does the Duma deputy for whom you voted, which you, at best, once saw on television, depend on you?

    WHAT is yours with. business?
    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    Do I argue? You really have the right to choose a cat in a poke. But even you don’t put the cat in this bag.

    Not yours. business!

    Got it, no?
    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    your limitless dullness, Well dumb, dumbass, Your head reminds me of a bucket of slop.


    Bravo, it’s immediately obvious that the “smart” Bolshevik was caught. good lol

    What wretchedness .....
  • Mordvin 3 6 June 2020 18: 01 New
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    Quote: Olgovich
    GIVE ME TEN candidates, not ONE OF YOUR TUPAR,

    Zvezdobol, you are Olgovich. Three!!! Three candidates were in the election.
  • Olgovich 7 June 2020 06: 40 New
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    Quote: mordvin xnumx
    vezdobol, you are Olgovich. Three!!! Three candidates were in the election.

    1. Poke, Little Johnny, to his wife and his "partners" in

    2. Surnames of independent candidates from which opposition parties. how many they spoke on the radio, the newspapers, how many votes they got, on the TABLE, liar!

    Before the elections, it was announced that they would be held on an alternative basis. However, by mid-1937, this statement was refuted, because of the suspicion of the country's leadership during the repressions of 1937. Nevertheless, during this time, many believed in the promise of multi-party elections, including representatives of the Russian Orthodox Church, who hoped to hold believing candidates in accordance with article 124 of the new Constitution, which affirmed freedom of religion. Many of those who tried to run for the Council as alternative candidates were arrested by the NKVD; a number of candidates subsequently refused to participate. In addition, Soviet law enforcement agencies carried out mass arrests on the eve of the election. https://rustelegraph.ru/news/2018-03-15/Odobryaem-i-podderzhivaem-Kak-golosovali-na-bezalternativnykh-vyborakh-v-SSSR-79220

    AFRAID OF YOUR POPULAR ELECTIONS, yours was a liquid mass, they knew that they would throw them out and ask for millions of deaths and humanity.
  • ser56 6 June 2020 18: 24 New
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    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    You must submit candidates for consideration by the labor collective meeting. What candidates do you propose?

    you just don’t know how it was done - the candidates came down from the district committee ... request The number of these corresponded to the number of deputies - there was no alternative ...

    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    After all, they people know each other well. Because they work together.

    do you have a fever? bully people in one workshop don’t know everyone, and you want the deputy of even the district council to know where 100 people live ... by the way - and the voices of those who don’t work at the factories, teachers. doctors, etc.?
    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    Or tomorrow he’s going to the session, and you can give the order. And they gave, but not everyone from himself, but worked out

    what enchanting nonsense .... bully
    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    So that all the energy in the debate - how best (?) - is gone. But the matter is standing still.

    Yes, somehow in the United States or England, the deputies are cursing, but living there is generally better ... request
    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    And you will easily choose one of the three that you personally know, because you work with him nearby.

    the deputy’s task is to control the authorities and write laws ... can a worker do this? repeat Yes, even between their main occupations?

    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    as a deputy of the Duma for which you voted

    you show in vain illiteracy in vain - we have recently been chosen from party lists ... hi
    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    Enough, you're tired of me already with your boundless stupidity.

    Well, the culture of discussion is just going through the roof ... bully
  • Krasnoyarsk 6 June 2020 21: 34 New
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    Quote: ser56

    you just don’t know how it was done - the candidates went down from the district committee ... request Number

    I don’t know that ?!
    Lord, and where are you looking for such stupid people?
    A candidate in this form came down from the district committee, for example, a man, 30-40 years old, Russian, non-partisan, secondary education, married, a worker who enjoys authority in the team. All!
    In another district, for example, on a collective farm, such a candidate is a woman of 35-40 years old, a Ukrainian, a member of the party, a higher education, engineers, married, and enjoys authority on the collective farm. ALL!!!
    Quote: ser56
    people in one workshop don’t know everyone

    laughing Have you worked at least one day in the workshop?
    Quote: ser56
    By the way - and the voices of those who do not work in factories-teachers. doctors, etc.?

    But you look at the composition of the deputies of the USSR Armed Forces, you will be unpleasantly surprised - all segments of the population of the USSR were represented in it, and not as it is now in the Duma. Some oligarchs, lawyers, artists, athletes and people without a specific occupation.
    Further I do not want to comment on your illiterate nonsense.
  • ser56 6 June 2020 21: 48 New
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    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    Lord, and where are you looking for such stupid people?

    are you about yourself? bully
    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    EVERYTHING!!!

    in your dreams ... the party committee selected the candidates and sent them to the district committee for approval, after which they returned ... in addition, the district committee added its own, city committees, regional committees, and the Central Committee too!
    I am a member of the CPSU, to whom do you powder your brains? bully

    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    Have you worked at least one day in the workshop?

    I'm in another department, but the father is from the workers ... request In addition, I am an engineer and made my amusements in production ...
    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    all segments of the population of the USSR are represented, and not as it is now in the Duma. Some oligarchs, lawyers, artists, athletes

    how there - Rzhu-ni-magu ... bully in the USSR there were also - and a bunch of artists in the USSR Armed Forces / RSFSR and athletes, though instead of the rich there was a nomenclature ... request
  • 210ox 6 June 2020 18: 26 New
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    Calm, only calm. © laughing Does the current elite in the Kremlin allow serious opponents? Breeds around freak-dogs, Roizman-goyzman .. And? Like I did, Olgovich. wassat
  • Olgovich 7 June 2020 06: 47 New
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    Quote: 210ox
    Does the current elite in the Kremlin allow serious opponents? Breeds around dog freaks, Royzman-Goizman.

    Yours even have it brains и courage not enough, so they were afraid of FREE elections, before enuresis and animal horror.
  • 210ox 7 June 2020 06: 51 New
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    It looks like animal horror begins with you. Soon for the olgovichi, it will be necessary to call a team of orderlies. You saw your support and the comments above, one hatred on your part and hysteria.
  • Olgovich 7 June 2020 08: 32 New
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    Quote: 210ox
    Seem to be animal horror begins with you

    Cross yourself. Or seek special help.
    Quote: 210ox
    Soon for the Olgovichi, it will be necessary to call a team of orderlies

    see above
    Quote: 210ox
    Your support was also seen by the comments above, one hatred on your part and hysteria.

    For my part, FACTS, for yours -complete powerlessness. beating in hysterical boorish anger, powerlessness to refute them (for it is impossible to call white black, and FARS "elections" .... elections) and anger at others, for his powerlessness.

    PS If you have Nothing to say on the topic, besides discussing my person, then WHY spoil the monitor with your EMPTY? fool
  • Alekseev 7 June 2020 08: 19 New
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    Quote: Olgovich
    poke your wife, you are told a thousand times!

    You do not roll beads before goplin. They are hardened in their oaks, in their own skin not repressions or collectivizations, they have not experienced other delights, they can only stink.
  • Sugar Honeyovich 5 June 2020 15: 08 New
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    Quote: Olgovich
    Yes, the Romanovs were elected there at the Zemsky Sobor in 1613 ..

    Those. once chosen - and enough for centuries? Then what’s your lie about the Soviet regime, that its "NOBODY, NEVER, ANYWHERE has chosen"? She was also chosen, and no matter what the "Hamburg account" itself is! Moreover - defended in the armed struggle! fool negative
    1. Olgovich 5 June 2020 17: 01 New
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      Quote: Sugar Honeyovich
      Then what’s your lie about the Soviet regime, that its "NOBODY, NEVER, ANYWHERE has chosen"? She was also chosen, and no matter what the "Hamburg account" itself is!

      lying!

      NEVER people in the election did not choose!

      Fearing your elections and the people before the enuresis, they despised him, constantly lied to him, and did not trust him.
      1. Sugar Honeyovich 5 June 2020 17: 30 New
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        [quote = Olgovich] NEVER people chose in the elections! [/ quote]
        LIES. He chose in the elections and in the long war.
        [quote = Olgovich] Fearing your ... people, [/ quote
        Ours is the people. Unlike yours.
        1. Olgovich 6 June 2020 08: 36 New
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          Quote: Sugar Honeyovich
          quote = Olgovich] NEVER did the people choose in the elections!

          LIES. He chose in the elections and in the long war.
          Quote: Olgovich
          FEAR your ... people, [/ quote
          Ours is the people. Unlike yours.

          The demagogic empty CHATTER-WASN’T WERE free equal competitive elections with you-chop this fact on your forehead!

          Or name it specifically, the talker: when, which parties participated and how many votes got for 70 years!

          You can not? so do not fool your head with emptiness.

          To freedom! hi
        2. Sugar Honeyovich 6 June 2020 17: 48 New
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          Quote: Olgovich
          There were NO free equal competitive elections with you-

          LIES. It was such an election. And the elected deputies were responsible to their constituents. That is, there was the power of the people. Democracy. Real, not gulped.
          Quote: Olgovich
          which parties participated

          Tell me, liar: if there are many parties, is this a guarantee of free elections?
        3. Olgovich 7 June 2020 07: 08 New
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          Quote: Sugar Honeyovich
          LIES. It was such an election. And the elected deputies were responsible to their constituents. That is, there was the power of the people. Democracy. Real, not gulped.

          Who needs your sleazy, thoroughly deceitful, cloying, CHAIN? fool

          Facts for a hundredl-how much opposition there were independent candidates and from parties in the ballots, how many votes they got, etc.

          Your party of enemies of the people, do not offer!
          Quote: Sugar Honeyovich
          And the elected deputies were responsible to their constituents.

          And how did they answer for the HUNGERED DEATH and mass swellings of 1937, mass hunger strike, daily lines for simple bread, clothes, etc. in front of their voters, eh? Or did the voters say to them- "All normal, come on and on"? fool
          That is, there was the power of the people. Democracy. Real, not gulped.


          So bring the SPEECHES of these “deputies”: their criticism of bills, criticism of the country's leaders, their proposals on the laws, on the removal of leaders, disagreement, etc. -To the TABLE, a lying storyteller!

          What, again, are not wealthy?
          Quote: Sugar Honeyovich
          Tell me, liar: if there are many parties, is this a guarantee of free elections?

          It wasn’t your matter that was decided by the dog, I am disgusted by a certain party and I want another party and MY OWN candidate who will ask for everything from her and I have the RIGHT to it, according to the constitution, incl. Stalinist.

          Only more than 600 were shot and several million were planted — this was a party bigger than the VKPBe!

          And VKPBE sat in deep e!
        4. Sugar Honeyovich 7 June 2020 13: 36 New
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          Quote: Olgovich
          Who needs your lavish, thoroughly deceitful, cloying, WATCH
          Of course, no one needs your lavish, thoroughly deceitful CHAT. Therefore, you are constantly below zero.
          Quote: Olgovich
          Your party of enemies of the people, do not offer

          So nobody offers your party of enemies of the people. She was kicked out of Russian land in 1920. In order not to stink.
          Quote: Olgovich
          give the SPEECHES of these "deputies": their criticism of the bills

          Read the press of those years, ignoramus. Millions of people discussed, ruled, and criticized the draft constitution alone.
          Trepach, you did not answer: if there are many parties, is this a guarantee of free elections?
        5. Olgovich 7 June 2020 13: 58 New
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          Quote: Sugar Honeyovich
          Of course, no one needs your lavish, thoroughly deceitful CHAT. Therefore, you are constantly below zero.

          belay fool
          I have FACTS, FIGURES, DOCUMENTS.

          You have a CHAPTER. So you have nothing out of this .... emptiness! We don’t see the difference?
          Quote: Sugar Honeyovich
          So nobody offers your party of enemies of the people. She was kicked out of Russian land in 1920. So as not stink.

          "Death", a letter, has long ceased the party of enemies of the people, on the conscience of which MILLIONS of people die from hunger
          Quote: Sugar Honeyovich
          Read the press of those years, ignoramus. Millions of people discussed, ruled, and criticized the draft constitution alone.

          the promised FREEDOM OF SPEECH AND PRESS of the 30s with topics about HUNGERED DEATH, cannibalism, swelling of the tumors, child POVERTY, child slave labor, TORTURE of collective farmers, daily bursts of bread, clothes, shoes, thousands of KILLS is in the NKVD reports) -AT THE TABLE, liar!

          And false "discussions" - into the tube and there, there!
          Quote: Sugar Honeyovich
          Trepach, you did not answer: if there are many parties, is this a guarantee of free elections?

          you are answered:
          It wasn’t your matter that was decided by the dog, I am disgusted by a certain party and I want another party and MY OWN candidate who will ask for everything from her and I have the RIGHT to it, according to the constitution, incl. Stalinist.
          Because alternative parties and candidates, having received votes, will receive power and the opportunity to call the enemies of the people to justice and save millions of people
        6. Sugar Honeyovich 7 June 2020 17: 09 New
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          As always, there is essentially no answer from you, a liar and a racket ... As well as literacy: "A corpse stinks, a soul soars! A slave, like mine, he stinks everything. A dead man has already stiffened" (Dahl )
        7. Olgovich 8 June 2020 09: 50 New
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          Quote: Sugar Honeyovich
          As always, there is essentially no answer from you, a liar and a treacher, no ..

          and what .... question? fool

          But YOU can’t prove your false lie about “freedom of speech and the press”
          WHERE is the answer to this
          : promised FREEDOM OF SPEECH AND PRESS of the 30s with topics about HUNGERED DEATH, cannibalism, swelling of animals, Poverty, child slave labor, TORTURIES of collective farmers, daily bursts of bread, clothes, shoes, hundreds of KILLS what is in the reports of the NKVD) - ON THE TABLE, liar!
          ?
          Fast liar! am

          Ah, you do not .... lol can lol ... you .... Not ...... wealthy ... lol
          Quote: Sugar Honeyovich
          As well as literacy:

          Oh, So he still persists in his forgiveness, lol teach ignoramus:
          the verb "stink," imperfect form, past tense

          I stole
          You stink
          He stinked
          She stinked

          and you write:
          Quote: Sugar Honeyovich
          So as not to stink.


          Got it, no? lol
  • ser56 6 June 2020 18: 15 New
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    Quote: Olgovich
    NEVER people in the election did not choose!

    you are not quite right - the elections in the presidential election were held under the Bolsheviks, but they dispersed the presidential election ... request
    1. Olgovich 7 June 2020 07: 17 New
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      Quote: ser56
      NEVER people in the election did not choose!

      you are not quite right - elections in the parliament were held under the Bolsheviks, but they dispersed the parliament ..


      WHERE do I have ... denial of this?

      ONCE AGAIN, uncircumcised: Bolsheviks NEVER people in the election did not choose!
    2. ser56 7 June 2020 12: 24 New
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      Quote: Olgovich
      ONCE AGAIN, uncircumcised: the Bolsheviks NEVER chose the people in the elections!

      the word "chose" has 2 meanings: 1) holding elections 2) winning them ... request
      thus, your idea without different interpretations can be expressed as follows: "The Bolsheviks never won in free elections" request I’ll add - even to Perestroika, the very first free elections led to their loss of power, despite tricks with the congress ... request
    3. Olgovich 7 June 2020 12: 57 New
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      Quote: ser56
      the word "chose" has 2 meanings: 1) holding elections 2) winning them ...
      thus, your idea without different interpretations can be expressed as follows: "The Bolsheviks never understood everything perfectly, they won the free elections"

      1) Not holding, but voting

      2) I did not choose them.
      Quote: ser56
      "The Bolsheviks never won on free election "

      Non-free “elections” cannot be called elections in principle, because this is absurd
    4. ser56 7 June 2020 22: 26 New
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      Quote: Olgovich
      1) Not holding, but voting

      voting is part of the election ... request
      Quote: Olgovich
      Non-free “elections” cannot be called elections in principle, because this is absurd

      alas, this is politics .... see USA - there it becomes the president with a smaller number of voters ... request
    5. Olgovich 8 June 2020 09: 57 New
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      Quote: ser56
      Voting is part of the conduct of elections.

      We are discussing the concept of "past choices." And the choice is made by voting. not by holding
      Quote: ser56
      alas, this is politics .... see USA - there it becomes president with a smaller number of voters

      This is generally another opera.
      The choice .... of one candidate contradicts the very meaning of the word "choice". It's just absurd / nonsense
    6. ser56 8 June 2020 21: 52 New
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      Quote: Olgovich
      And the choice is made by voting. not by holding

      as there is an IVS - it’s important how they counted ... well - in the discussion I see no further meaning request
      Quote: Olgovich
      .of one candidate contradicts the very meaning of the word "choice". It's just absurd / nonsense

      not at all - you can vote even for one yes / no request
    7. Olgovich 9 June 2020 07: 21 New
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      Quote: ser56
      not at all - you can vote even for one yes / no

      once again I pay attention to the keyword "Choice": the choice between candidatesand not the ability to be / not be alone.
    8. ser56 9 June 2020 12: 26 New
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      Quote: Olgovich
      once again I pay attention to the keyword "Choice

      you absolutize this word request Well, they slip you a couple or three candidates, the difference between which is only in the name request The choice is possible only with freedom of agitation (within the framework of the law, of course), but this was a priori impossible in the USSR ... request
    9. Olgovich 9 June 2020 12: 49 New
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      Quote: ser56
      you absolutize this word

      clarify the concept
      Quote: ser56
      Well, they slip you a couple or three candidates, the difference between which is only in the name

      Yes, even this was feared, like fire. posing as a laughing stock with ... one candidate!
      Quote: ser56
      The choice is possible only with freedom of agitation (within the framework of the law, of course), but this was a priori impossible in the USSR ...

      there’s nothing to talk about!

      But in the blue eye they say that the choice .... WAS! HOW so it is possible, I do not understand ....
    10. ser56 9 June 2020 13: 02 New
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      Quote: Olgovich
      But in the blue eye they say that the choice .... WAS! HOW so it is possible, I do not understand ..

      agree that in the USSR there was an aberration of concepts - legality, human rights, etc. therefore, the elections were not perceived as elections, but as a ritual ...
    11. Olgovich 9 June 2020 13: 19 New
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      Quote: ser56
      agree that in the USSR there was an aberration of concepts - legality, human rights, etc. therefore, the elections were not perceived as elections, but as a ritual ...

      I agree.

      but the sensation of a certain wildness of what was happening, nevertheless, was
    12. ser56 9 June 2020 17: 57 New
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      Quote: Olgovich
      about the feeling of a certain wildness of what was happening, nevertheless, it was

      alas, remembering myself - I don’t remember ... but the elections are a ritual where I went to buy some deficits in the past - I remember books, for example ... in general, homo-sovieticus was an amusing creature ... request
    13. Olgovich 9 June 2020 23: 36 New
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      Quote: ser56
      alas, remembering myself - I do not remember ..

      remembering myself, I remember: we lived. after all. not in the airless space and listened to “Voice A” and “Radio Liberty”, and they knew their story: - about the parties. Duma, CSS, many candidates before the thief.

      No, I did not think that this was completely wrong, but there was some kind of funny perplexity, as well as indifference.

      This was on a par with the pointed-out stupid but obligatory assemblies. political information and other pretense, over which everyone, all understanding, chuckled and scoffed. but ... performed.
      And where to go?
    14. ser56 9 June 2020 23: 42 New
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      Quote: Olgovich
      And where to go?

      mimic ... repeat
  • Alekseev 7 June 2020 08: 25 New
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    Quote: Sugar Honeyovich
    Those. once chosen - and enough for centuries?

    Kings are not chosen every four to five years. This system is such a monarchist and it is true in a certain historical era. Got it? fool At the time of the kings, unlike the Bolsheviks, they didn’t talk about any kind of democracy, although the leader had comrade. Stalin, the powers were greater than any sovereign.
    1. Sugar Honeyovich 7 June 2020 13: 25 New
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      Then there’s nothing to bother about "Nobody ever chose Soviet power."
  • Red Dragon 5 June 2020 23: 04 New
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    Dear Olgovich! llllllllMy grandfather, a war hero, always said thanks to the Soviet Alast, I got higher education, with moronic kings I would remain a moron wink
    1. Olgovich 6 June 2020 08: 42 New
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      Quote: Red Dragon
      Dear Olgovich! llllllllMy grandfather, a war hero, always said thanks to the Soviet Alast, I got higher education, with moronic kings would remain a moron
      Due to its features morons can not learn even in ordinary schools, especially in universities.

      Otherwise, the results are in the form of disasters in 1991
      1. Red Dragon 6 June 2020 08: 46 New
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        Soviet power gave ordinary people, simple peasants, the opportunity to get a good education, including higher education. And do not stoop to the end of life on a landowner dear to your heart in a poor village wink
        1. Olgovich 6 June 2020 11: 18 New
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          Quote: Red Dragon
          Soviet power gave ordinary people, simple peasants, the opportunity to get a good education, including higher education. And do not stoop to the end of life on a landowner dear to your heart in a poor village


          is it possible to read anything but a FALSE counselor, laziness ?.

          Education HAS BRAKED for a Long Ten Years Because of a Thief: -NOT a school was built before 1927, millions of people received it because of this much later, if only in Russia.

          Higher education in Russia was much more affordable in Russia for the people than in England
          Quote: Red Dragon
          And do not stoop to the end of life on a landowner dear to your heart in a poor village

          The collective farmers were envious of the “impoverished” village of Russia for almost forty years: only forty years later they were able to EAT and CLOTHING as they did in 1913.- see Report CSB 1855

          Not to mention the wild levies-taxes from collective farmers, slave labor free of charge and lawlessness.
        2. Red Dragon 6 June 2020 12: 02 New
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          The stories of my grandfather, born in 1923, how his family lived and how he lived, are enough for me. He was the first general in the family to graduate, after which they received everything. Well, it happened, peasant family, we are not nobles, not close to your beloved aristocrats. wink You painted yourself an idyllic picture, tsarist Russia is a direct paradise. But in fact, a rigid estate society, the widespread dominance of parasites of the nobility, almost no social elevators. wink
        3. Olgovich 6 June 2020 12: 15 New
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          Quote: Red Dragon
          I have enough stories from my grandfather 1923 yearand birth, how his family lived and how he lived

          I have enough stories from my grandparents 1900-1906 g.how they lived BEFORE THE THIEF and after, and these are the stories of ordinary Russian PEASANTS and CITIZENS.
          Quote: Red Dragon
          You painted yourself an idyllic picture, tsarist Russia is a direct paradise.

          Nonsense - there was no idyll at all, but in comparison with the subsequent Middle Ages, there was much better
          Quote: Red Dragon
          But in fact, a rigid estate society, the widespread dominance of parasites of the nobility, almost no social elevators.

          Parasites-privileged parasites from the so-called the same nomenclature - there were no more in any country in the world.

          Remind me where the children of Stalin, Khrushchev, Brezhnev, Andropov, Gorbachev, Suslov live, or do you read for yourself?
        4. Red Dragon 6 June 2020 12: 27 New
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          I know where they live. They are not interesting to me. You can blame the Soviet government for a lot, I do not idealize it, but at least for the opportunity to get a poor peasant son and his equally poor three brothers to get a normal education and become engineers, doctors, officers, she should say thanks. For some reason, under Tsarist Russia, not one of my family members achieved this. wink
        5. Olgovich 6 June 2020 14: 28 New
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          Quote: Red Dragon
          I know where they live. They are not interesting to me. You can blame the Soviet government for a lot, I do not idealize it, but at least for the opportunity to get a poor peasant son and his equally poor three brothers to get a normal education and become engineers, doctors, officers, she should say thanks.

          and in other countries, engineers, doctors, officers, who works / serves? Nobles, huh? lol Peasant sons. Workers sons. Thanks to whom? Ford?
          Quote: Red Dragon
          Why, under Tsarist Russia, not one of my family members achieved this

          So it was not necessary while there were so many specialists.

          Who said that in Russia they would not have become them in the 1930s-1980s, when needed, as in the OTHER world?

          WHERE would MILLIONS of engineers and others take? From ... nobles? lol

          If you do not understand, I repeat: Higher education in Russia was much more accessible in Russia for the people than in England, in the polytechnics of the nobility, the overwhelming minority.

          and do not forget that under "socialism" more than 13 million peasants died of hunger in wild hunger strikes in 1921,22,24,25,28,31,32,33,37,46,47 years, who were not in the engineers, but in the cemetery and there was no more disenfranchised and poorer person than the Russian peasant; it was not without reason that they RANED from slave free collective farm labor by all means.
        6. Red Dragon 6 June 2020 15: 15 New
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          Yes, therefore, experts were not needed in such numbers that the king and the elite parasitic on the people were happy with everything. Grain was sold to the West, industrial goods were purchased in exchange. 70 80 percent of the population are peasants, most of them beggars, like my great-grandfather, working on a landowner from dawn to dawn, his land is very small. When they learn, there is no time to raise their heads. Ford already produces millions of cars, but in Russia, the Tsar with a religious procession is walking, or in Livadia, he is resting in his palace. Tired poor fellow at ravens shoot. And why do sivolapim peasants need doctors, a plantain will be cured, not sugar. Well, he’ll die, to worry about how many of them mother runs around Russia, and the tsar is alone. It can be upset, and a piece in the throat will not climb. And this was told to me by my grandfather, and I believe him, but not forgive you. winked
        7. Olgovich 6 June 2020 15: 35 New
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          Quote: Red Dragon
          Yes, therefore, experts were not needed in such numbers that the king and the elite parasitic on the people were happy with everything.

          and in other countries there were not many.
          Quote: Red Dragon
          70 80 percent of the population are peasants

          Yes, you are simply ignorant.
          Quote: Red Dragon
          most of them are beggars, like my great-grandfather, working on a landowner from dawn to dawn, his land is very small.

          1. much richer than a peasant who died of starvation in wild hunger strikes 1921,22,24,25,28,31,32,33,37,46,47 biennium,, with bare property and socialized property and wild taxes on ... chickens, ..tree, etc.

          2. already 90% of the land to BOP-among peasants
          Quote: Red Dragon
          And why do sivolapim peasants need doctors, a plantain will be cured, not sugar. Well, he’ll die, to worry about how many of them mother runs around Russia, and the tsar is alone. It can be upset, and a piece in the throat will not climb. And this was told to me by my grandfather, and I believe him, but not forgive you.

          A grandfather born in ... 1923 simply could not know this, excuse me ....

          And yes- Precinct DOCTORS, clinics, dairy kitchens, etc., are the introduction of NIKOLAI, not advice, remember, finally.

          And etre tells a story, not a grandfather,

          PS Do not want to know the history of the homeland, do not know.

          but why show off your infinite Ignorance.? hi
        8. Red Dragon 6 June 2020 15: 54 New
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          My grandfather also had a family. Father and mother, my great-grandfather and great-grandmother, respectively. They told him about their life before his birth. My great-grandfather could not tell me anything, he died before my birth, in the same village where he was born before 60 before he lived. Therefore, only from the stories of his grandfather knew about his life. Before the revolution, the church was yes. But there were no doctors. It was necessary to go to the city. Such is the gradation, there is pop, there is no doctor. wink And such a metamorphosis happened, all four sons were able to leave for the city and learn, but great-grandfather did not. And great-great-grandfather is not. And great-great-grandfather is not. Dumb all were probably.
        9. Olgovich 6 June 2020 16: 45 New
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          Quote: Red Dragon
          All four sons were able to leave the city and learn, but my great-grandfather did not.

          Could escape - from hard labor free labor.

          Who didn’t leave, that UNSUCCESSOR, it was thought so with you in the Russian village.

          And the village-DRINKED at your idols (or rather, they drank it) -DISE-the first place in the "people's" state in the world in alcoholics. As well as in killings, suicides, abortions and cigarettes.

          And what did four sons leave to their children after the hard work of a lifetime?

          I give that nothing. (Rented from the state apartment, do not remember)
        10. Red Dragon 6 June 2020 17: 49 New
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          Hm. One brother left nothing. He died in the war. By the way, three out of four fought, including my grandfather. What should they leave? It’s obviously more than the great-grandfather’s rural hut, which was either sold to the collective farm for a penny or given away altogether. wink
        11. Mordvin 3 6 June 2020 17: 56 New
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          Quote: Red Dragon
          By the way, three out of four fought, including my grandfather. What should they leave? It’s clearly more than the great-grandfather’s rural hut, which they sold to the collective farm for a penny

          What a penny?
        12. Red Dragon 6 June 2020 18: 05 New
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          I do not know for sure. He was not interested in the life of his grandfather, but if there was any amount, it was clearly not big. No one even mentioned her from relatives in the context of a house sold, bought something or went. And in the photo the rural hut was not impressive. fellow
        13. Mordvin 3 6 June 2020 18: 15 New
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          Quote: Red Dragon
          I was not interested in the life of my grandfather, but if there was any amount, then obviously not big.

          So. After my grandfather, my grandfather was sent to the mine. Grandma generally stopped working. The grandfather at that time received about 350 rubles, a kilo of chicken cost 60 kopecks, a kilo of cabbage - 12 kopecks.
        14. Red Dragon 6 June 2020 18: 24 New
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          Grandfather also received well. Yes, and he had a decent pension, like a front-line soldier. Something about 15 thousand rubles on the book was. So we can say that I left almost nothing, since I died in 1991. What is next with this money is not for me to explain to you. wink
        15. Mordvin 3 6 June 2020 18: 26 New
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          Quote: Red Dragon
          So we can say that I left almost nothing, since I died in 1991. What is next with this money is not for me to explain to you.

          You're lying.
        16. Red Dragon 6 June 2020 18: 27 New
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          Why do you think so? belay
        17. Mordvin 3 6 June 2020 18: 29 New
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          Have you forgotten Pavlovskaya reform?
        18. Red Dragon 6 June 2020 18: 37 New
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          And what about the Pavlovsk reform? 50 and 100 rubles changed the old model and limited the withdrawal of money from books. So my grandmother’s passbooks were transferred, not to my grandson, I didn’t get anything at all. Grandmother lived after the death of her grandfather. winked angry
        19. Mordvin 3 6 June 2020 18: 43 New
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          Quote: Red Dragon
          And what about the Pavlovsk reform?

          Nothing. I just drove to my grandfather on skis, seven km. covered in twenty minutes. And my grandfather said to me: "I don’t have such money ..."
        20. Red Dragon 6 June 2020 18: 47 New
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          Grandfather did not hold large cash in cash, if he was not going to buy something large. Parents too. Everything was on the book. Therefore, I do not remember a big boom in our family, in connection with this, God forgive me, reform wink
  • Olgovich 7 June 2020 07: 22 New
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    Quote: Red Dragon
    What should they leave? Obviously more

    So what exactly is this "bigger"?

    House / apartments, bills, cars - i.e. what earns working person in a NORMAL country for a lifetime.
  • Red Dragon 7 June 2020 10: 10 New
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    Specifically. Grandfather left 15 thousand Soviet rubles, a summer house, an apartment. I left everything to my grandmother. A year later, these 15 thousand turned into nothing. I didn’t buy a car, I didn’t want to drive for some reason, although I could, he, as a veteran, had a special turn like no more than a year. wink Not golden mountains, of course, but as said earlier, it’s clearly bigger than the great-grandfather’s rural hut. wink
  • Olgovich 7 June 2020 11: 52 New
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    Quote: Red Dragon
    Specifically. Grandfather left 15 thousand Soviet rubles, a summer house, an apartment. I left everything to my grandmother. A year later, these 15 thousand turned into nothing. I didn’t buy a car, I didn’t want to drive for some reason, although I could, he, as a veteran, had a special turn like no more than a year. wink Not golden mountains, of course, but as said earlier, it’s clearly bigger than the great-grandfather’s rural hut. wink

    Once again, the apartment is NOT HIS, but the state and he could not leave her, neither his son nor his daughter in another city, as well as sell.

    15 thousand is NOTHING - they had nothing to buy in the country of wild deficit. Zilch not backed up by ANYTHING.

    And this is clearly less own house with land lot- go to the real estate exchange.

    Soviet man came to this world naked and left in the same way, leaving nothing to the children,
  • Red Dragon 7 June 2020 12: 56 New
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    Well then, a person in tsarist Russia usually left children less than nothing. wink
  • Olgovich 7 June 2020 13: 17 New
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    Quote: Red Dragon
    Well then, a man in tsarist Russia usually left children less than nothing

    1. I left my house.
    Built for children.

    He transmitted the earth.

    But the following Holodtrans, nothing.
  • Liam 7 June 2020 13: 20 New
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    Quote: Olgovich
    But the following Holodtrans, nothing.

    It creates a reasonable impression that you have not been left with anything
  • Red Dragon 7 June 2020 14: 04 New
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    Great-grandfather also left nothing. Hut was a great-great-grandfather. But the priest’s house was a sight for sore eyes, you can’t argue with that. Loafers in Tsarist Russia lived well. winked
  • Olgovich 7 June 2020 15: 46 New
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    Quote: Red Dragon
    Loafers in Tsarist Russia lived well

    Good hard workers in Russia received MANY TIMES more than many TENS of MILLIONS of poor collective farmers and workers of the Soviet Union, who, no matter how long their lives on the collective farm and factory, were left naked. And these works had a perspective! Worker Khrushchev to help you.

    and then, therefore, they stopped bothering. went into total drunkenness, and Fields and pastures are overgrown with GRASS - millions of hectares by 1985.

    The land for which fought and died a hundred years ago, when YOU became UNNECESSARY to anyone and no one to work on it.

    Chinese, Arabs will import? They tried for them, they killed their peasants, exiled, took away, forced, stained, soldered, did not pay?
    Quote: Red Dragon
    Great-grandfather also left nothing.

    HATU left. And the earth.

    YOUR NOTHING.
    Don't you see the difference again?
  • Red Dragon 7 June 2020 17: 57 New
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    That is, you think the life of a grandfather who was in the Hermitage, the Kremlin, the Bolshoi Theater, rested in the Crimea, in Sochi, in the Baltic states is worse than the life of his great-grandfather, who spent his whole life digging in manure and did not go anywhere except for the district center (district) center. From entertainment, which only goes to church, where the hypocritical priest tells you that you need to love the moronic Tsar-Emperor Nikolashka and you will have everything? At the same time, the priest already had everything. An interesting look at the situation, of course wink
  • Olgovich 8 June 2020 10: 32 New
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    Quote: Red Dragon
    Oh, do you think the life of a grandfather who was in the Hermitage, the Kremlin, the Bolshoi Theater, rested in the Crimea, in Sochi, in the Baltic states is worse than the life of his great-grandfather, who spent his whole life digging in manure and did not go anywhere except for the district center (district) center.

    I think that your working grandfather would have visited everywhere under RUSSIA, Russia did not stand still 1900WHEN will it reach you ?!

    And there would be gagarins and atom and everything else (the growth rate of Russia to the BOR is the highest in the world), only without terrible, unprecedented losses, tears and torment in the world: EVERYTHING was BEFORE YOU :: and the scientists, the founders of atom and space, and Russian universities, where these scientists and Soviet Kurchatov studied. only scientists would be more by an order of magnitude: see how many killed yours.

    Example: The same grandfather-Krechians who had never been out of manure, after the Thief, got millions abroad, where, due to their work, they became RICH people who traveled the whole world, and not just the Hermitage.

    And your grandfather stayed the poor, And he ate and dressed and lived (m2) MUCH WORSE than pradela in 1913 (see Report of the Central Statistical Bureau of 1955) and a million times worse than a peasant dung beetle who left the same
    These are just FACTS.
    Quote: Red Dragon
    where the hypocritical pop will tell you that you need to love the moronic Tsar-Emperor Nikolashka and you will have everything? At the same time, the priest already had everything

    You might not go to the priest and they were different and taught mainly the right things: do not kill, do not steal, etc.
    But at a meeting where you’re right in a hungry, swelling face, they say that you became .... A SECURE person, you were must to go. (see meeting of collective farmers 02,1933 g). Like yelling there: How good! "," Glory to the Berry! "Then:" Death to the Berry "

    This is the height of cynicism, arrogance, hypocrisy
    Quote: Red Dragon
    An interesting look at the situation, of course

    The usual look of a reading person.

    You do not read and do not know, excuse me generously, NOTHING. You are too lazy. It’s more convenient for you, calmer, not to know, it’s easier and stereotypes in place.
    Your right, yes.

    But argue with such "knowledge" ..... belay request
  • Red Dragon 8 June 2020 11: 12 New
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    I read enough, don’t worry, since school, which I graduated perfectly in all subjects. He argued with his grandfather in his teens, even then he slipped new books to him, in the wake of perestroika and new thinking. However, the grandfather to death remained a communist, hating priests, Russian parasites, aristocrats, landowners, the tsar and saying thanks to the Soviet government. By the way, he also read a lot, unlike his great-grandfather with four or three classes of education. What could be is dreams. In fact, a rigid estate society, that is, a society where some initially have more rights not only in practice but also in theory (in Russia, nobles), and the autocratic power is inherited, will not be effective for most members of this society. If only because one king can be smart, and his son is a very limited person, like Nikolashka, and ruin the country. Why should he strain if he is already a nobleman, much less a king by birthright? He is doing well. But the lackeys will somehow smack, for that they are lackeys. wink
  • Olgovich 8 June 2020 11: 51 New
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    Quote: Red Dragon
    I argued with my grandfather in teenage age, even then he slipped all kinds of new books to him, on the wave restructuring and new thinking.

    So you are very young ..
    Quote: Red Dragon
    However, the grandfather to death remained a communist, hating priests, Russian parasites, aristocrats, landowners, the tsar and saying thanks to the Soviet government

    He scolded what he did not know. He could not compare with anything - he did not know how his fellow dung dwellers lived abroad, your press lied and was silent. It's ridiculous!
    Quote: Red Dragon
    What could be is dreams.

    What are ... dreams?

    Once again, look at OUR DAMAGED peasants / Cossacks who have fled abroad after the Thief-they are RICHER MILLION TIMES of our poor collective farmers-it's just a fact! Like more than ten million corpses from starvation with you, fact

    Russian scientists, the founders of the atom and space, and Russian universities are a fact.

    The growth rate is a fact.

    Russia -4-5 world economy - fact
    Quote: Red Dragon
    In fact, a rigid estate society, that is, a society where some have initially more rights, not only in practice but also in theory (in Russia - nobles)
    List the greater rights of the nobles hi
    Quote: Red Dragon
    and autocratic power inherited will not be effective for most members of this society. If only because one king can be smart, and his son is a very limited person, like Nikolashka, and ruin the country. Why should he strain if he is already a nobleman, much less a king by birthright? He is doing well. And the slaves somehow crumble, for that they are slaves

    there was at least someone smart.

    With yours, NOT ONE.

    Under the tsar, the Constitution (in force) was with elections, parties, the press, and freedom.

    With yours, only a miserable FIG screen under a wild dictatorship with an intimidated population ..

    As a result of comparison: under the tsars, Russia turned to the BIGGEST country in the world, with a continuously growing, full of strength, people.


    The result of yours is the remains of Russia within the borders of the 17th century with an endangered, old, torn population.

    It is simply an indisputable, irrefutable fact.
  • Red Dragon 8 June 2020 12: 22 New
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    Well, how very young. The fortieth spring was already hidden behind the horizon, my daughter received a passport and considers herself a very adult. laughing Thank you for the interesting discussion, maybe if my ancestors were from nobles or even from the middle class, I would support you. And so, dear Olgovich, we remain with our own, I believe that the October Revolution was more good for the oppressed estate of the Russian Empire, as it made it possible to quickly learn and climb the social ladder. And to live life as it was inaccessible in the Russian Empire with the dominance of priests, nobles and other parasites. Therefore, I think it's time to end the discussion in this thread, we won’t say anything new to each other. Good luck to you. wink
  • Olgovich 8 June 2020 12: 35 New
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    Quote: Red Dragon
    Well, how very young. The fortieth spring has already hidden behind the horizon,.

    baby ...
    Quote: Red Dragon
    Thank you for the interesting discussion, maybe if my ancestors were from noblemen or at least from the middle class, I would support you

    my from farmers
    Quote: Red Dragon
    And so, dear Olgovich, we remain with our own, I believe that the October Revolution was more good for the oppressed estate of the Russian Empire, as it made it possible to quickly learn and climb the social ladder

    Yeah: under the tsars, Russia turned into the BIGGEST country in the world, with a continuously growing, full of strength, people.

    The result of yours is the remains of Russia within the borders of the 17th century with an endangered, old, torn population.
    Quote: Red Dragon
    And to live life in a way that was not available in the Russian Empire with the dominance of priests, nobles and other parasites

    Certainly: as happily as in a free and well-fed RI, it turned out, unfortunately, inaccessible for your grandfathers.

    And the discussion ends for one simple reason: you’re nothing, in response to suicidal facts, not able to argue.- no numbers, no documents, facts.

    Good luck to you! hi
  • Red Dragon 8 June 2020 14: 31 New
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    I wanted to say goodbye already, but I didn’t understand the ending. What a happy life in the Russian Empire for a great-grandfather who lived half-starving, who did not have the opportunity to go further than the county center. What are you talking about, dear Olgovich? When they were practically starving at the priests, the muzzle did not crawl through the door, but these are parasites. And is this a happy life ????? No words are simple. wink
  • Olgovich 8 June 2020 14: 41 New
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    Quote: Red Dragon
    What a happy life in the Russian Empire for the great-grandfather who lived starvingnot having the opportunity to go further than the county center.

    So READ. more, dear Andrey!

    Gave you Report of the Central Statistical Bureau of the USSR 1955-here and look at it and see that to eat as in 1913 the usa peasant could only in FORTY YEARS OLD!. And this is even according to FALSE owls!

    in 1937,39,46,47,52-generally HUNGER and eat and get dressed, as 1913 could only be in DREAMS!

    And when he was starving, at the party
    Quote: Red Dragon
    in the face did not crawl through the door, but these are parasites.
    from special rations and distributors.

    They gave the ass themselves, did your party-SELECT-see the difference?

    Regarding trips to the thief simple russian teachers traveled in Europe, in the USSR, they’ve eaten up without salt.
  • ser56 6 June 2020 18: 31 New
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    Quote: Red Dragon
    Yes, therefore, experts in such numbers were not needed that everything suited the tsar and the parasitic elite among the people

    By 1917, there were 100 university students in the Republic of Ingushetia ... hi
  • Red Dragon 6 June 2020 18: 49 New
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    This is a lot for the 165 millionth country, what do you think? wink
  • ser56 6 June 2020 19: 08 New
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    Quote: Red Dragon
    This is a lot for the 165 millionth country, what do you think?

    I'm a little wrong:
    "Higher school in Russia (February 1917) brought together 124 educational institutions: 11 universities and 40 university-type schools, including legal, medical, oriental, historical, academic departments of public universities; 9 pedagogical institutes and higher courses; 9 musical and theatrical educational institutions and fine arts; 7 theological academies; 19 engineering, 15 agricultural, 6 commercial institutes; 8 military and naval academies and higher schools. In 1913, 4,5 professors and teachers worked in them, more than 120 тыс. students. ["
    this is quite enough at that time, while the system of universities was actively developing!
    for example, in the 1927/28 academic year, 169 thousand students. hi
  • ser56 6 June 2020 18: 30 New
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    Quote: Red Dragon
    for the opportunity to the poor peasant son

    "Nikolai Vasilyevich Ulyanin (1770-1838) - an Astrakhan tradesman who worked as a tailor and artisan. Former serf from the village of Androsovo, Sergach district (county) of the Nizhny Novgorod province, who went to the quitrent and did not return to the landowner Brekhov." You know who this is VIL’s grandfather, the father of VIL - 1877 - a real state councilor, the rank gave the right to hereditary nobility. hi
  • Red Dragon 6 June 2020 19: 08 New
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    Well done man. There are almost no rules without exceptions. wink What does this prove? wink What do social elevators work? I do not understand the term hereditary nobility. If a person served the Motherland well, I admit, as a reward, certain rewards, I can accept the nobility for this person. Descendants and where? They receive the nobility on the fact of birth, despite the fact that they may turn out to be scoundrels, cowards, etc. Privileges are not deserved by them. And in order to provide them with these privileges, someone has to work hard on them. This is tsarist Russia. wink
  • Mordvin 3 6 June 2020 18: 04 New
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    Quote: Olgovich
    Due to their characteristics, morons can not study even in ordinary schools, especially in universities

    Well, you ... No words.
    1. Olgovich 7 June 2020 07: 30 New
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      Quote: mordvin xnumx
      Well, you ... No words.

      The man writes that his "grandfather stayed would be a moron "under the kings.
      Those. was already. This is NOT I wrote.

      And those do not study in ordinary schools.

      Got it, no? fool

      I have no words....
  • sanya 6 June 2020 23: 47 New
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    Modern Russia is very close in borders to those that the Bolsheviks cut into the Brest Peace .....
    In other words, the Bolshevik komunyaki and modern power in Russia continue to serve their puppeteers in the west
  • Sugar Honeyovich 5 June 2020 12: 30 New
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    Quote: Olgovich
    or say that he wrote what he wanted with ... "freedom of speech" of advice? moreover, being a drug addict and an alcoholic? Yes, even offended Wrangel?

    And you say that he wanted to write something else? And not only him, but, for example, Lunchenkov? lol
  • Sugar Honeyovich 5 June 2020 07: 19 New
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    Quote: Olgovich
    and we would live today with RUSSIAN Odessa, Nikolaev, Alexandrovsky, Yekaterinoslav, Elisavegrad

    The main question is HOW would we live ... In general, while white and other Russophobes did not come to power in 1991, Russians lived quite nicely in all these cities ... good
    1. Olgovich 5 June 2020 09: 32 New
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      Quote: Sugar Honeyovich
      The main question is HOW would we live ...


      In Russian Odessa, Russians would not be burned, in Russian Alexandrovsk they would not be stoned with them, and in the Russian Region of the Don Army there would not be an Alley of Angels-killed Russian children.

      This happened on those Russian territories that YOU, the "Russophiles" gave away to the never-existent Ukraine, where YOU forcibly turned Russians into nerus, where YOU erased all the memory that it was Russia — they destroyed all Russian monuments and rewrote the history where proud Novorossia turned into ... mythical ..... "southern Ukraine" fool

      And it happened only because YOU are -given, raped trampled.

      in neighboring Rostov. Azov and Taganrog, this is not,

      1. sanya 5 June 2020 10: 14 New
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        And then these heroes shamefully and cowardly betrayed their USSR to which they swore to give their lives ...
        Not one person did not remain faithful to the oath and did not want to defend the USSR
        1. Mordvin 3 5 June 2020 10: 19 New
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          Quote: sanya
          Not one person did not remain faithful to the oath and did not want to defend the USSR

          Lies. USSR defended. And great defense. Yolkin wrote 150 people.
          1. sanya 5 June 2020 14: 07 New
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            Storytellers
          2. Okolotochny 5 June 2020 14: 10 New
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            Yolkin wrote 150 people.

            Of the two and a half millionth army, the millionth apparatus of the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the KGB, dozens, then hundreds of thousands of party workers and millions of members of the CPSU !!! Vova, and you write about 150 people ??? !!! Aren't you funny ???
            1. Mordvin 3 5 June 2020 14: 17 New
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              Quote: Okolotochny
              Vova, and you write about 150 people ???!

              No, not funny. This Yolkin wrote about 150 people, in fact there were much more.
              1. Okolotochny 5 June 2020 15: 42 New
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                Where are the facts, Volodya? I transferred to you a minimum of about 10 million people (not counting ordinary citizens) who should have stood for Death !!! And they were not, they did not stand to death. In my own region I know (heard) only for one thing, a woman, the first secretary of one of the district committees, when she found out about the failure of the Emergency Committee, she drowned.
      2. Sugar Honeyovich 5 June 2020 12: 34 New
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        Quote: Olgovich
        In Russian Odessa, Russians would not be burned, in Russian Alexandrovsk they would not be stoned with them, and in the Russian Region of the Don Army there would not be an Alley of Angels-killed Russian children.

        Instead, there would be SYSTEMATIC pogroms, periodically reaching massacres and local civil wars.
        But the main thing is not even that - with white there would live a small part of the people, and the majority would exist ... negative
        1. Olgovich 5 June 2020 14: 00 New
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          .
          Quote: Sugar Honeyovich
          But the main thing is not even that - with white there would be a small part of the people, and the majority would exist


          The main thing is that even just EAT and CLOTHING, as in 1913, you could barely reach it only through ..... FORTY YEARS !! - see. The report of the CSB, before having overpowered more than 10 million hunger.

          And you have never achieved the freedoms of Russia that make man human, NEVER: nor freedom of speech, truth, courts, the press, conscience, elections, parties, processions, NEVER!
          1. Sugar Honeyovich 5 June 2020 14: 04 New
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            That's right, but ... exactly the opposite.
            1. Olgovich 6 June 2020 08: 49 New
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              Quote: Sugar Honeyovich
              That's right, but ... exactly the opposite.

              So LIST is the opposite, a liar and a chatterbox, according to the points, they are listed by me:
              1. EAT and CLOTHING, as in 1913,
              2. having starved more than 10 million.
              3. no freedom of speech, truth, courts, press, conscience, elections, parties, processions.

              What, gut stuck together? lol
              1. Sugar Honeyovich 6 June 2020 18: 12 New
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                Quote: Olgovich
                gut stuck?

                Sympathize with you. Try pickled cucumbers with fresh milk. laughing
                Quote: Olgovich
                So LIST is the opposite,

                Easy, ignoramus:
                1. "They began to live well when the collective farms went." "Life has become best since the mid-1950s, and beyond that, before the war." And with a one-man life: "God forbid!" These are the stories of those same peasants. Which CSB, apparently, did not notify.
                2. Which many collective farmers have not noticed.
                3. Freedom of speech (real), the press (at least no worse than the present), conscience, elections (not what it is today). There have just been no parties except one. But they are what is, what is not - this is in no way connected with freedom.
                So that. hi
                1. Olgovich 7 June 2020 07: 48 New
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                  Quote: Sugar Honeyovich
                  Easy, ignoramus:
                  1. "They began to live well, when the collective farms went"." Life has become best since the mid-1950s, and beyond that, before the war. "

                  Lies are stupid: multi-million DEATH and HUNGERING in 1932-33, starvation deaths of 37 g, uninterrupted hungry existence all the time. Mass mortality and cannibalism 1946-47gg (when exporting bread) These are FACTS from a collective farm happy life. For instance:
                  Village Dolzhanskaya - city G. **** ate the corpse of the dead sister's owl.

                  In the same village, it was established that group D *** remained after the death of his father and mother with young sisters and brothers ate the meat of brothers and sisters who died of starvation.

                  St. Novo-Scherbinovskaya. In the 3rd collective farm brigade, wife E *** hacked and with "ate her 3 year old child,

                  In the 3rd brigade, the wife of the convict C *** drags the corpses of children from the cemetery and eats them.
                  A girl’s corpse was found in the apartment with her legs cut off and boiled meat was found.
                  Quote: Sugar Honeyovich
                  These are the stories of those same peasants.

                  The documentary story is given above and SUCH DOCUMENTS THOUSAND.

                  And fairy tales of unknown peasants, in a tube and there. there!
                  Quote: Sugar Honeyovich
                  Which many collective farmers did not notice.

                  Died
                  Quote: Sugar Honeyovich
                  Freedom of Speech (Real)

                  Examples, liar on the table! - about HUNGER, DEATH from NGOs, cannibalism, corpse eating, child slave labor, about mass child poverty, torture of collective farmers, etc. (this is what the NKVD reports have)
                  Quote: Sugar Honeyovich
                  the press (at least no worse than the current one)

                  Examples AT THE TABLE- on topics see above, liar!
                  Quote: Sugar Honeyovich
                  elections (not what it is today)

                  Opposition candidates, their number of votes on the table, liar!
                  Quote: Sugar Honeyovich
                  There have just been no parties except one. But they are what is, what is not - this is in no way connected with freedom.

                  It’s not your decision that the dog’s business is to decide what is freedom and what is not. And not yours.

                  Millions of people have a different opinion. And they put on him the RIGHT no less than yours.

                  Got it, no? hi
                  1. Sugar Honeyovich 7 June 2020 13: 40 New
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                    Quote: Olgovich
                    Lies are dumb

                    You. As the final conclusion. I have the opinions of the villagers.
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    Died

                    They did not know about it and survived until 1990-2010. Probably again the fault of the CSB. lol
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    Millions of people have a different opinion

                    That's it. And you are against them - zero without a stick.
                    1. Olgovich 7 June 2020 14: 15 New
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                      Quote: Sugar Honeyovich
                      I have the opinions of the villagers.

                      Into the "opinion" tube of propaganda!

                      This is nothing - Against the background of DOCUMENTS, MONOGRAPHIES and OFFICIAL STATEMENTS of the STATE and the Fraternal graves of the victims.
                      Quote: Sugar Honeyovich
                      They did not know about it and survived until 1990-2010. Probably again the fault of the CSB.

                      Praise that not all, nevertheless, were killed?
                      Well, Maladets!
                      Quote: Sugar Honeyovich
                      That's it. And you are against them - zero without a stick.


                      Yours, no, forgotten? They decomposed alive, rotted and self-disappeared, with general indifference and indifference — such is the assessment of yours by hundreds of millions of people.
                      This is just a fact.

                      and yes: How many pieces of the party remained in the bunk. 18 million batch after December 91? .... What? Not at all ?! belay request lol
                    2. Sugar Honeyovich 7 June 2020 17: 12 New
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                      Quote: Olgovich
                      Yours, long gone

                      And yet ... there is! And you know that. From that and fear ... laughing
                    3. Olgovich 8 June 2020 10: 50 New
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                      Quote: Sugar Honeyovich
                      And yet ... there is! And you know that. From and fear

                      jesters, mummers and clowns-degenerates from the maggots of the decomposed body. lol

                      By the way so
                      : Skoko pieces party remains in the "people's". 18 млн parties after December 91?
                      ., and? lol We are silent again?

                      Where are its millions of rallies 91g, processions, armed struggle. underground, foreign offices, etc., etc.? lol

                      Oh yes, it was only enough for ..... "ozonation" of air .... lol
    2. sanya 5 June 2020 14: 07 New
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      When the Reds and that was not
      1. Sugar Honeyovich 5 June 2020 15: 02 New
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        Therefore, they have many supporters.
        1. sanya 5 June 2020 15: 20 New
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          Today a lot
  • 210ox 5 June 2020 16: 08 New
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    About Russian Odessa. This tragedy largely lies with the current Kremlin leaders. Yes, I have to! Odessa is not Syria, there are no interests! am
    1. Alexey RA 5 June 2020 16: 54 New
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      Quote: 210ox
      About Russian Odessa. This tragedy lies largely with the current Kremlin leaders

      The cat threw kittens - Putin is to blame! ©
      Some Ukrainians burned other Ukrainians in the deathly silence of many third Ukrainians. But the Kremlin is to blame for this - which did not help those who did not want to help themselves. what
      1. 210ox 5 June 2020 18: 40 New
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        Those who were burned were RUSSIAN.
      2. ser56 6 June 2020 18: 35 New
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        Quote: Alexey RA
        But the Kremlin is to blame for this - which did not help those who did not want to help themselves.

        But the Kremlin would help, i.e. sent troops - it would require maintenance ... bully
  • kyznets 6 June 2020 02: 05 New
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    I venture to get from both, but both of you are wrong, or both are right. Pull the pieces out of the general context. Under Emperor Nicholas II there was a rise in industry, education, and living standards. And that is a fact. We lived better than in Europe. You need to read not only the agitation, but also the primary sources, documents. And the Empire collapsed due to the betrayal of the emperor’s relatives and the ruling military and civil elite, who pursued their personal interests. What Britain, Germany and others took advantage of. History repeated itself with the Soviet Socialist Empire. Stalin and the Bolsheviks lifted the country from ruins, from hunger and cold. The Bolsheviks from an agrarian country built a military, industrial and scientific empire. Illiteracy was completely FULLY ESTABLISHED, CREATED anew industry, energy, raised medicine, education (which, incidentally, Emperor Nicholas II planned to do at the time). As V.S. Vysotsky sang, "There was a time and prices were reduced ...". Yes, prices were reduced for essential goods annually under Stalin (after the war). But just as the imperial empire collapsed from above, so did the USSR collapse due to the betrayal of the ruling elite. History repeats itself. Only the USSR collapsed faster. And to protect him from the tens of millions who have taken the oath, well, maybe not hundreds, but several thousand. And the overwhelming majority merged the country and transferred the power in the ELECTIONS to the cynical traitors, scoundrels and careerists of the Yeltsin team. And yes, they distributed sovereignty, territories, weapons, which are still returning to us in blood and shame. They rested - "show where and when they chose Emperor Nicholas II .." Well, what kind of demagogy. They chose the Ruling Romanov dynasty. And now they choose whoever they can. So what? Does it improve your life, education, raised industry, strengthened defense? And now the power is ABSOLUTELY not what it was under Yeltsin, and the conditions are different. Remember when we lived from the tranche of the IMF to the tranche. What about default? And the national debt of Russia was to go nuts what a huge. And now again the liberals are trying to impose "justice" on us from below, from the "people". And they spit on the history of tsarist Russia and on Soviet history, and on our current Russian history. You’re not looking for enemies there, dear authors-debaters. It seems to me.
  • sanya 5 June 2020 09: 05 New
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    There were more than 200 thousand Latvian riflemen in civilian times ... One would think that all of the villages in Latvia abandoned the economy and went to fight for Lenin
    In fact, the former German and Austrian prisoners of war were called Latvians, and German experts led them
    1. Sugar Honeyovich 5 June 2020 13: 43 New
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      Quote: sanya
      There were more than 200 thousand Latvian riflemen in civilian times ...

      About 80 thousand. And about 9,5 thousand in white.
      1. sanya 5 June 2020 14: 06 New
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        All in all, during the war more than 200 thousand
  • gsev 5 June 2020 12: 33 New
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    Quote: Olgovich
    If not for the unification of the Polish and Red Russophobes in a single impulse against Russia.

    Wrangel preferred war in alliance with Pilsudsky for the partition of Russia. Where do you see the red Russophobes who were in a military alliance with the Polish interventionists?
    1. Olgovich 5 June 2020 14: 04 New
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      Quote: gsev
      Wrangel preferred war in alliance with Pilsudsky for the partition of Russia.

      fool Take a look at the window-WHO divided Russia!
      Quote: gsev
      Red Russophobes former in a military alliance with Polish interventionists?

      the armistice of the Reds and the Polish Russophobes in 1920, as in 1919, which allowed the transfer of Latvian, Estonian mercenaries and others against Russia.
      1. gsev 5 June 2020 16: 56 New
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        Quote: Olgovich
        allowing to transfer the Latvian, Estonian mercenaries, etc. against Russia.

        Those whom you call mercenaries were Soviet citizens and were never armed and were not supplied with enemies of Russia and interventionists. VSYUR renamed the Russian army was helpfully supplied with German, French and English interventionists. The successes of Wrangel already in Tsaritsin were provided by the British tankmen. Without foreign tanks near Tsaritsyn, the whites were beaten utterly.
        1. Olgovich 5 June 2020 17: 19 New
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          Quote: gsev
          Those whom you call mercenaries were Soviet citizens and were never armed and were not supplied with enemies of Russia and interventionists.

          they were citizens independence owls Latvia since 1919

          were supplied from Russian warehouses captured by bandits
          Quote: gsev
          VSYUR renamed the Russian army was helpfully supplied German, interventionists.
          nonsense.

          And pathetic petty crumbs from the British / French came already .... from March 1919, before that Russia fought with the bandits by taking away from them.

          In the collapse of the USSR, the first violin was played by the KGB in the national republics.

          They arrived with ... Mars?

          And the nationalists brought up in the USSR, too, from there?
          1. gsev 5 June 2020 21: 11 New
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            Quote: Olgovich
            Quote: gsev
            VSYUR renamed the Russian army was helpfully supplied with German interventionists.
            nonsense.

            It’s just that in the memoirs of many distinguished White Guards, one recalls the statement by Krasny “how he, as a prostitute, washed German shells in the Quiet Don and already cleanly handed them over for Denikin’s Volunteer Army to shoot only at Russian citizens.” Or do you think all these memories are false?
            1. Olgovich 6 June 2020 10: 49 New
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              Quote: gsev
              It’s just that in the memoirs of many distinguished White Guards it is recalled that Krasny’s ​​statement “how he, as a prostitute, washed German shells in the Quiet Don and cleanly passed them to Denikin’s Volunteer Army to shoot only for Russian citizens ". Or do you think all these memories are false?


              The citizens of Russia (white) were forced to shoot at the bandits who seized power from the people by force and DECEPTION with the aim of returning it to him.

              Krasnov gave Denikin pathetic PITCHES, the volunteers fought with weapons that were BARNED by the bandits and seized the warehouses of ALL RUSSIA until March 1919.

              Germany gave the bandits the POWER in exchange for Russian territories, the history of the country did not know the worst betrayal. Thanks to the Entente, annulled the Bolshevik shame

              And then the allies sent crumbs, when it is not necessary and not that (rapiers for fencing, for example)
              Quote: gsev
              How long did Soviet Latvia exist in 1919?

              Independent Latvi, do not bark.

              What is the gender difference? This is already FOREIGNERS.
              Quote: gsev
              It’s the same as consider the citizens of Ukraine as the people's militia of the LPR and DPR?[/ b] They in Ukraine have only the right to undergo the most sophisticated bullying and torture invented by CIA experts.

              What kind of bullshit?
              Quote: gsev
              And nationalists appear in any country and in any nation. While the Communists fought against nationalism, including Russian, the USSR was monolithic. As the departure from socialism and justice began, nationalism of all stripes began to flourish. Agree that under the USSR nationalism and Russian chauvinism was much less than now or under the tsar.

              Toluo Turak thinks so: ALL [b] Nazi abomination-nat. intelligentsia, writers, artistssanitized and created by the USSR in HIS universities and all with party tickets.

              Or are they ... from Mars? WHERE did they all come from, huh?

              BEFORE you, such and in sight anywhere did not have:
              This is YOURS written by the communist poet Vieru:
              «Hey Russian, I'm tired of hearing your chatter about my release"," They live in our homes, command us, teach us how to live on our land "" How much can you do to your own detriment just to not annoy the Russians? "," I am a bloody stain called Moldova, which instead of burning the killer trying to smile at him. " . they “do not understand anything other than the mat” and only “crap Moldavian national pride”. , "The Slavic influence on the character of the Romanian was disastrous - drunkenness, lies, indifference", Russians - "the nomadic population of the Slavs, who wanted to be considered a people, but such a nation does not exist"
              Quote: gsev
              and never armed or supplied with enemies of Russia

              Bolsheviks were supplied, and this is the worst enemies of Russia, see. result.
          2. gsev 5 June 2020 21: 18 New
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            Quote: Olgovich
            they were citizens of independent owls. Latvia since 1919

            How long did Soviet Latvia exist in 1919? This is the same as considering the citizens of Ukraine as the people's militia of the LPR and DPR? They in Ukraine have only the right to be subjected to the most sophisticated bullying and torture invented by CIA experts.
            1. ser56 6 June 2020 18: 41 New
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              Quote: gsev
              This is the same as considering the citizens of Ukraine as the people's militia of the LPR and DPR?

              Most of them were citizens of Ukraine! Formally, now ... request I note that when we had the Chechen wars they did not seek to help Russia ... repeat
          3. gsev 5 June 2020 21: 29 New
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            Quote: Olgovich
            And the nationalists brought up in the USSR, too, from there?

            And nationalists appear in any country and in any nation. While the Communists fought against nationalism, including Russian, the USSR was monolithic. As the departure from socialism and justice began, nationalism of all stripes began to flourish. Agree that under the USSR nationalism and Russian chauvinism was much less than now or under the tsar. Nationalists raised Radio Liberty and not the Communists. At one time, even terry anti-Semitism was condoned for the sake of the collapse of the USSR.
            1. ser56 6 June 2020 18: 45 New
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              Quote: gsev
              While the Communists fought with nationalism, including Russian, the USSR was monolithic

              What kind of nonsense ... it was during the USSR that Russian lands were cut into all the outskirts that did not have statehood before ... for example, the lands of the Ural Cossacks were given to Kazakhstan ... request
              Quote: gsev
              and Russian chauvinism

              What kind of nonsense is when the Russians forbade others to speak their own language? Or pray to your gods? fool have read Lenin's dope ... laughing
              Quote: gsev
              Nationalists raised Radio Liberty and not the Communists.

              Aha and its editors created national republics, regions and districts ... bully
          4. gsev 7 June 2020 03: 32 New
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            Quote: Olgovich
            were supplied from Russian warehouses captured by bandits

            No!!! From warehouses that the Bolsheviks did not allow the English saboteur Savinkov to seize from Russia in Yaroslavl, Rybinsk and Murom or destroy
            1. Olgovich 7 June 2020 10: 15 New
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              Quote: gsev

              No!!! From warehouses that the Bolsheviks did not allow the English saboteur Savinkov to seize from Russia in Yaroslavl, Rybinsk and Murom or destroy


              YES! From the warehouses of RUSSIA, captured by the GANGS, while she fought at the front against the German invaders, who brought the bandits.

              Party of Savinkov won popular elections, unlike bandits obsrvhsya there.
      2. gsev 5 June 2020 16: 57 New
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        Quote: Olgovich
        Take a look at the window-WHO divided Russia!

        In the collapse of the USSR, the first violin was played by the KGB in the national republics.
    2. ser56 6 June 2020 18: 38 New
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      Quote: gsev
      for the division of Russia.

      and who separated Finland in 1917? then the Baltic states? Gave Kars to Turkey? etc?
  • snake 5 June 2020 13: 49 New
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    Quote: Olgovich
    and we would live today with RUSSIAN Odessa, Nikolaev, Aleksandrovsky, Yekaterinoslav, Elisavegrad,

    "And the waltzes of Schubert, and the crunch of French rolls ..." (c)
    And you, your brod Olgovich, from the counts will you be so sad about the RCMP? I do not understand how suddenly the descendants of the proletariat have such an inescapable longing for the monarchy. There is also an ersatz king in the Kremlin with the boyars.
    1. Olgovich 5 June 2020 16: 48 New
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      Quote: serpent
      And you, your brod Olgovich, from the counts will you be so sad about the RCMP?

      It's all. What can you say on the topic?

      Do I need to translate the letters? request
      1. snake 5 June 2020 19: 16 New
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        Yes, it’s just interesting who you are: a hereditary aristocrat or a hereditary serf. Since, in my opinion, only these two categories of people can rejoice for the monarchy and the White movement.
        1. Olgovich 6 June 2020 09: 10 New
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          Quote: serpent
          Yes, it’s just interesting who you are: a hereditary aristocrat or a hereditary serf. Because the, in my opinion, only two of these categories of people can be happy for the monarchy and the White movement.

          a glance from beneath and from behind the low superciliary arches, which is the origin of primitivism in judgments.

          For any RUSSIAN person (whether a monarchy, a republic) or the White movement that defended it, any LITERATIVE person is in favor.

          1.if this is the preservation of RUSSIAN Odessa, Nikolaev, Uralsk, Verny, etc., etc.

          WHAT did Russophobes turn them into after the Thief? Are you for Mykolaivy and Oral? fool

          2. Freedom of ELECTION of the people, freedom of the press, political parties, conscience-WHO can be against this from literate people? What is it all turned invaders?

          3. THOUSANDS of Russian monuments, millions of books, icons, paintings, frescoes were destroyed by the barbarians after 17 years. A competent person can approve?

          4. More than TEN million people starved to death with them, in no Africa was this.
          How can this be justified? etc.

          PS from the most honorable class of Russia we are from RUSSIAN PEASANTS.
  • Corrie sanders 6 June 2020 01: 25 New
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    Dear Olgovich, I will traditionally supplement you, “about the Red Army soldiers” (Gulchatay slowly removes the burqa ...)
    1. Redneck D.P. - in June 1938 he was arrested, exposed as "an enemy of the Soviet regime and" the main organizer and commander of the rebels in the Kuban "", shot with confiscation of property.
    2. Uborevich I.P. - In June 1937 he was arrested, exposed as an enemy of the Soviet regime and one of the main organizers of the "fascist military conspiracy", also accused of knowingly wrecking the construction of the Red Army, especially the red cavalry. Fully admitted guilt. Shot, ashes cremated.

    P.S. In general, the article is cool - how nice to read)))
  • Alekseev 7 June 2020 08: 14 New
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    Quote: Olgovich

    If it were not for the unification of the Polish and Red Russophobes in a single impulse against Russia, then everything could have been different and we would have lived today with RUSSIAN Odessa, Nikolaev,

    That's for sure, but not all.
    But not all reasons
    Quote: Finches
    lies in existence
    , i.e. in the general morale described by Slaschev’s white forces, they say,
    Quote: Finches
    no ideology, no purpose ... Anti-people gang!

    And if you read Comrade Babel about the First Horse, you can easily draw a similar conclusion about the Red Horsemen.
    The fact remains: the people did not support the forces of the mass white movement. He simply did not have enough armed men to win. The bulk of the population was not enthusiastic about the Bolsheviks, but thought that it would not affect ... wink The whites were different, but the main leaders, such as Gen. Denikin and Admiral Kolchak, were weak politicians. They put forward slogans for advice, but without the Communists or the peasant king and, as Comrade Trotsky said, "we would not have lasted a week." But everything is clear with the Bolsheviks: “plunder of the loot”, “land to the peasants”, “who was nothing, that will become everything”, etc. To understand that the arable land is already 80-90% with the peasants and work on it on themselves they would not be allowed above the mental capabilities of most illiterate representatives of the Russian countryside.
    Why is there a village, thousands of tsarist officers went to the Red Army, following the example of the Great French Revolution known to them. By 1938, not many remained alive. And the old Bolsheviks, already twisted personalities, did not count on such an inglorious end from their own comrades ... request
    It is clear that, they say, no one counted on someone who dreamed about the world revolution, someone prosperously living on their land. But ... we know the result.
    1. Olgovich 7 June 2020 10: 36 New
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      Quote: Alekseev
      That's for sure, but not all.
      But not all reasons

      certainly
      Quote: Alekseev
      The fact remains: the people did not support the forces of the mass white movement. He simply did not have enough armed men to win.

      in 1919 there was a real chance, I think, to liberate Moscow if the Polish and Red Russophobes hadn’t agreed and the Makhno Turk would not be such a Turk.
      Quote: Alekseev
      The bulk of the population was not happy with the Bolsheviks, but thought that it would not affect ..

      The bulk simply waited, trying to survive in any way and for all. In the Red Army-40 (forty) percent of deserters, and this with the atrocious reprisals against them, their families and even their fellow villagers, this says a lot ...
      Voluntary Red Army-completely failed ...
      Quote: Alekseev
      tact like Gen. Denikin, Admiral Kolchak were weak politicians.

      they are soldiers, their profession is to defend their homeland, they went into politics very reluctantly and forcedly.

      And they were HONEST, not promising false acidic rivers. like the Bolsheviks.

      words from Kolchak’s appeal to people turned out to be prophetic: "Fight for yourself now while you have guns and machine guns!

      Then you want, but you won’t have anything! "
      the peasants rebelled later., but to no avail
      Quote: Alekseev
      It is clear that, they say, no one counted on someone who dreamed about the world revolution, someone prosperously living on their land. But ... we know the result.

      The result is known: the catastrophe of 1991 and the Russian Cross, the Russians were burned in the Russian city of Odessa once, and in Russian Donetsk the Avenue of Angels from the killed Russian children, the Russians Uralsk, Gurye, etc., disappeared, and millions of Russians fled or remained under the yoke of the Nazis, brought up the Bolsheviks.

      I agree with you, almost everything!
  • Deniska999 5 June 2020 06: 37 New
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    Stop-stop, in 1920 the Soviet Army was not yet.
    1. Okolotochny 5 June 2020 14: 11 New
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      Samsonov had.
      1. Mordvin 3 5 June 2020 14: 25 New
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        Quote: Okolotochny
        Samsonov had.

        Did not have. I have a medal: 20 years of the Red Army. That is, from the 22nd year.
        1. Okolotochny 5 June 2020 15: 45 New
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          And Samsonov had the Soviet Army.
          1. Alexey RA 5 June 2020 16: 56 New
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            Quote: Okolotochny
            And Samsonov had the Soviet Army.

            Not surprising. Samsonov had a Russian army in World War II. smile
        2. Looking for 5 June 2020 15: 50 New
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          Yes, at least take an interest when this medal was established!
          1. Mordvin 3 7 June 2020 03: 41 New
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            Quote: Seeker
            Yes, at least take an interest when this medal was established!

            My grandfather's medal.
  • apro 5 June 2020 07: 45 New
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    Successfully hit. Together with the Polish racists .... but it did not help ...
    Private successes could not turn the tide. The case of whites was lost not in the battlefields but in the heads of the population ... even in their own ...
    1. sanya 5 June 2020 09: 22 New
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      There is another
      In Ukraine, riots against the Reds began and the population needed only to be supported, and in Novorossia everything was crushed by then. Sweetened by the experience of the war with the Bolsheviks in the Caucasus, he understood all this well but did not heed his opinion
      It was necessary to step on Ukraine
      1. apro 5 June 2020 09: 24 New
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        Quote: sanya
        Riots began in Ukraine

        They did not rebel against the Reds for the whites. But against any power ...
        1. sanya 5 June 2020 09: 29 New
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          In the book “Crimea 1920” Slashchev wrote very well how the mood of the Cossacks changed when he began to partisan in the Caucasus
          So at first they did not receive any help and then after living under the Bolsheviks for some time everything changed dramatically ... Exactly the same thing happened in Ukraine and it was necessary to attack Ukraine as Slashchev suggested
          1. apro 5 June 2020 09: 32 New
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            Cossacks are still those separatists ....
            1. sanya 5 June 2020 09: 52 New
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              There is another
              Those who did not know what the Bolsheviks were originally against the “whites” and after some time the riots began and people went to fight for the whites and after some time the red ones cleared everything to zero
              So Slashchev, who had experience of such a war in the Caucasus, perfectly understood where why and why it was necessary to advance
              1. apro 5 June 2020 10: 03 New
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                Quote: sanya
                the red ones cleared everything to zero

                Here from this place in more detail. How is ethos? As a class? or on a territorial basis?
                1. sanya 5 June 2020 10: 09 New
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                  Red terror
                  Suppressed any resistance
                  and then they shot everyone who could potentially go to the other side and fight against the Bolsheviks ...
                  It’s no secret that in the front-line areas all former officers were simply shot
                  1. apro 5 June 2020 11: 48 New
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                    You dear did not answer. What does it mean under zero ..
                    If they suppressed resistance ... they didn’t resist the red with slingshots, but with weapons in their hands.
                    1. sanya 5 June 2020 13: 47 New
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                      Comrade I clearly explained to you
                      Destroyed a population capable of resisting
                      1. apro 5 June 2020 14: 31 New
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                        On what grounds? Figures showed red or those who shot them in the back?
                  2. Sugar Honeyovich 5 June 2020 13: 47 New
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                    Quote: sanya
                    all former officers were simply shot

                    Only these officers did not know about it.
            2. Looking for 5 June 2020 15: 53 New
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              Yes, JUDAH, ALL THESE KAZAKHOCHKI WERE.JUDA !!! Correctly the Bolsheviks did. That eliminated them. As a class.
          2. Sugar Honeyovich 5 June 2020 13: 44 New
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            And having fought under the whites, they again changed dramatically ...
      2. gsev 5 June 2020 12: 34 New
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        Quote: sanya
        It was necessary to step on Ukraine

        But Pilsudski and the Entente did not allow this.
        1. sanya 5 June 2020 13: 49 New
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          But this is the problem of Wrangel that he had to solve
          1. gsev 5 June 2020 17: 04 New
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            Quote: sanya
            Wrangel problem that he had to solve

            When trying to solve this problem, he would encounter the problem of supplying the army with French and English shells and would be left without coal to flee from the Crimea. In principle, Wrangel was forced to fight against Russia, and then kept the remnants of the White Army in Turkey to make Russia more accommodating in negotiations with Poland. As soon as Soviet Russia got a little stronger, the whites had to earn their bread in the sweat of their faces.
            1. sanya 5 June 2020 17: 11 New
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              In Ukraine, there was everything or almost everything that was needed
              And by the way, after Slashchev’s resignation, there was a scant attempt to do what he proposed ....
              In addition, VSYUR then already had a lot of things in service and storage
  • parusnik 5 June 2020 08: 08 New
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    Thus, during the week of the advance of the Russian army of Wrangel, the Reds lost almost all of Northern Tavria.
    ... At the same time, the inhabitants of Northern Tavria did not go in orderly rows and columns to the Wrangel Russian Army ...
  • Gardamir 5 June 2020 08: 59 New
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    But this is also a rewriting of history calling the Soviet Red Army. And are there a few articles about Wrangel lately.
  • bober1982 5 June 2020 09: 00 New
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    The article says nothing about the decisive role of aviation in the defeat of the red units. White aviation terrified the Reds.
    Wrangel Aviation launched massive bombing attacks on the Zhloba corps, after which the corps itself virtually ceased to exist.
    For the first time, the actions of aviation had a decisive influence on the course of a major operation. As a result, the tactics of the actions of white aviation were studied in the Red Army, it was recognized as very effective.
    More than successful actions of Wrangel aviation are primarily associated with General Tkachev, it was an outstanding aviator of his time.
    In Rostov-on-Don, a memorial plaque was erected in honor of Vyacheslav Matveyevich.
    P.S.Deinekin was present at the opening, the Swifts aerobatic team welcomed.
    1. Olgovich 5 June 2020 10: 12 New
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      Quote: bober1982
      Wrangel Aviation launched massive bombing attacks on the Zhloba corps, after which the corps itself virtually ceased to exist.

      I was especially struck by metal. arrows used by Russian pilots against cavalry goon-arrow pierced the rider and the horse through ....
      1. BAI
        BAI 5 June 2020 13: 24 New
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        arrows used by Russian pilots against cavalry goons

        these "Russian" French (British) in shorts, we saw in yesterday's article.
      2. Alexey RA 5 June 2020 17: 02 New
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        Quote: Olgovich
        I was especially struck by metal. arrows used by Russian pilots against cavalry goon-arrow pierced the rider and the horse through ....

        Flasht. The legacy of the PMV, due to the simplicity of manufacture and large BK, has been widely used on both sides.
      3. Moore 6 June 2020 10: 55 New
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        Doesn’t it excite the fact that the future owners of General Krasnov flashed on the heads that the Russians, that the French already since the 14th year - does not excite?
  • sanya 5 June 2020 09: 17 New
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    In general, Slashchev proposed stepping on Ukraine in the direction of Yekaterinoslav to begin with
    I think that if, then, the Civil War could have listened to Slashchev, it would have ended very differently ....
    1. qQQQ 5 June 2020 09: 41 New
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      Quote: sanya
      I think that if, then, the Civil War could have listened to Slashchev, it would have ended very differently ....

      It could not end with anything else, beyond Bely there was no intelligible ideology, an understandable and supported leader by all, the population did not support them, in fact, they were invaders on their land.
      1. sanya 5 June 2020 09: 46 New
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        Occupants were Latvian arrows at 90 percent of German prisoners
        Do not try to transfer the conversation to an ideology all the more Soviet
        A successful offensive in Ukraine on the rear of the Bolsheviks who then fought with the Poles times the support of the population could bring victory in the Civil War
        1. qQQQ 5 June 2020 10: 28 New
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          Quote: sanya
          A successful offensive in Ukraine on the rear of the Bolsheviks who then fought with the Poles times the support of the population could bring victory in the Civil War

          Key phrase: multiplied by popular support, which White did not have. Well, the Reds would have retreated further, how many such retreats they had during the Civil War, everyone knows how it all ended. You just can not realize the fact that the Bolsheviks had great support from the population, and in a civil war, this is the most important thing.
          1. sanya 5 June 2020 14: 04 New
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            There was no support from the population, but there were mobilization resources, let’s say so .., the military industry stocks warehouses, etc.
            However, the price of these hordes was not high steadily and only the Germans who fought for some reason called “Latvian arrows” fought professionally; the rest surrendered or fled from the battlefield
            1. qQQQ 5 June 2020 14: 16 New
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              Quote: sanya
              Germans whose name is for some reason “Latvian arrows”

              As I understand it, a new training manual came out - the Germans won the revolution, who for some reason are called "Latvian arrows".
        2. Sugar Honeyovich 5 June 2020 16: 24 New
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          Quote: sanya
          A successful offensive in Ukraine on the rear of the Bolsheviks who then fought with the Poles times the support of the population could bring victory in the Civil War

          It was a small matter - to carry out this successful offensive. In Ukraine, where a year earlier they arranged a blood bath for whites ...
        3. gsev 5 June 2020 17: 20 New
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          Quote: sanya
          Occupants were Latvian arrows at 90 percent of German prisoners

          Latvian shooters were a national volunteer formation in the imperial army of Russia. They stood out for their staunchness and patriotism in World War I, even against the background of Cossack and Russian units and formations. During the revolution, the Latvian units did not fall apart, but almost in full force, switched over to serve the new government of Russia, of course, the Soviet one. Before the Stalinist repressions in annexed Latvia, the hostile attitude towards the Germans prevailed among the Latvians, not the Communists and not the Russians.
    2. Krasnoyarsk 5 June 2020 09: 50 New
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      Quote: sanya

      I think that if, then, the Civil War could have listened to Slashchev, it would have ended very differently ....

      Yes, it would end a month later ... or 3 months earlier. With the same result.
      Because, to fight against the people is the same as to write against the wind.
      1. sanya 5 June 2020 09: 58 New
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        The people were not for the Bolsheviks
        Germans, Chinese, people from the Caucasus and other international fought for the Bolsheviks
        1. qQQQ 5 June 2020 10: 33 New
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          Quote: sanya
          The people were not for the Bolsheviks

          The people were just for the Bolsheviks (if you count the number of all the units you listed, with the total number of fighters, then this is a drop in the bucket), the victory in the Civil War is just the proof. But for the whites there were just interventionists: the British, Japanese, Czechs, etc. One should not think that people did not understand anything then and now.
          1. sanya 5 June 2020 10: 46 New
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            200 thousand "Latvian shooters" who were actually Germans and Austrians is a lot
            Because it was a professional army which essentially won the Civil War
            1. Moskovit 5 June 2020 16: 12 New
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              Let's stick to the facts. There were approximately 80 thousand Latvian shooters. About 10 thousand fought for the whites. Austro-Hungarian prisoners who fought for Soviet power are estimated at 80-100 thousand. Chinese at 10-15 thousand. In 1920, in the Workers' and Peasants, there were 5 million soldiers. That's the scale. Latvians helped to stay in the most difficult years, therefore they seem to be white-shredders everywhere
              1. sanya 5 June 2020 17: 22 New
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                Austro-Hungarian prisoners, as you say, was 110 thousand, but how many German prisoners were?
                Where did they all fight and who commanded them?
                Where did they go then?
                1. Moskovit 5 June 2020 20: 52 New
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                  In total, there were 2.5 million prisoners of war in Russia. 500 thousand could return in a revolutionary turmoil. Another 800 thousand after the Brest peace. And the rest left Russia until the age of 22. About 300 thousand died in captivity. There were about 500 thousand Hungarians. The Soviet government managed to agitate about 100 thousand to join the ranks of the Red Army. The whites also campaigned, but the prisoners were in no hurry to replenish their ranks, they remembered the bestial attitude towards them on the ground. The Soviet government gave the prisoners citizenship, equalized in rights, put on shoes, fed, dressed. Therefore, tens of thousands of former opponents began to fight for the cause of the people. Plus, she promised not to impede her return to her homeland.
                  1. sanya 5 June 2020 23: 30 New
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                    Popular business?))))))))))))
                    Lenin arrived in a sealed carriage along with a gang of German agents, they were given money, they were given military support by intelligence specialists, etc.
                    They recruited an army of German prisoners Austrians Hungarians and seized power
                    Pure occupation regime ...
                    And the whites were the same ...
                    Slashchev honestly wrote about this in his book
                    It literally says that the Reds are under the Germans and we were under the French, and then Slashchev asks the rhetorical question "Why are the Germans worse than the French?"
                    And they eliminated Slashchev when the team of Stalin and Beria came because the British agents began to clean up the German ...
                    But back to the “Latvian shooters,” hundreds of thousands of former German and Austrian prisoners of war fought under this brand and won the war.
                  2. The comment was deleted.
                    1. Moskovit 6 June 2020 14: 19 New
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                      And, I thought, you are now talking about Krasnov, Shkuro and Mamontov, and the thousands of Cossacks who fought for Hitler. And mainly against partisans and civilians, because against the Red Army the gut was thin.
                      The internationalists returned home and tried to organize revolutions there, in particular in Hungary, and did not throw out bows.
                      Did not work out. Many folded in the struggle for communist ideas. Then they fought in Spain, were the basis of the International. And someone wrote immortal books.
                      Just do not shove me this Latvian. Based units extend to all.
                      1. The comment was deleted.
              2. Olgovich 6 June 2020 09: 18 New
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                Quote: Moskovit
                About 10 thousand fought for whites.

                They did not fight for the whites, do not lie
                1. Moskovit 6 June 2020 14: 06 New
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                  They fought for the whites, do not lie.
                  1. Olgovich 6 June 2020 15: 08 New
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                    Quote: Moskovit
                    They fought for the whites, do not lie.

                    So bring a liar, FACTS, a liar.
            2. The comment was deleted.
              1. sanya 5 June 2020 17: 20 New
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                It wasn’t barefoot Latvians who all of them suddenly inflamed with inexplicable love for Trotsky and all polls went to fight for the Soviet power, so steadfastly and professionally that you are simply amazed ...
                And then they all disappeared like never before
                And then Stalin shot some old Bolsheviks with entire settlements ....
                Wonderful story however
                1. Sugar Honeyovich 5 June 2020 17: 26 New
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                  Not all. Part went against the Bolsheviks.
              2. gsev 5 June 2020 17: 24 New
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                Quote: Sugar Honeyovich
                German generals by the name of Blucher ..

                When the serf went free, he received the will and a passport. Apparently, the ancestor of Blucher for his youthful appearance, the official, when issuing a passport, strongly recommended the name Blucher. This is the usual story of the emergence of non-Russian surnames in people whose ancestors were only Russian.
        2. Sugar Honeyovich 5 June 2020 13: 49 New
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          Quote: sanya
          The people were not for the Bolsheviks

          And whites say he was.
          1. sanya 5 June 2020 15: 34 New
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            And you say
            1. Sugar Honeyovich 5 June 2020 16: 04 New
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              Yes. Because it's true.
        3. koevoet1984 5 June 2020 13: 58 New
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          The people were in order, then order = Bolsheviks.
          The "white" troubles and opinions with "how do we equip Russia" are much more numerous, the PEOPLE (the same one) did not understand their multitude of words, and I really wanted to sneeze about the Duma’s election, and its very presence. But the purpose and powers of the village council, district committee, regional committee clearly understood.
          The great-great-grandfather was until 1937 an almost classical Siberian “fist” with the surname “Russia keeps on it (s), but honestly believed that it was better with the Bolsheviks.
          If anything, about the denunciation, the whole village knew who and why, and the composition of the “triples” in Siberia was no secret. Then the "troika" disappeared on the "Beria" cleaning)))
          1. Sugar Honeyovich 5 June 2020 16: 14 New
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            Quote: koevoet1984
            The people were in order, then order = Bolsheviks.

            More precisely, the people were for justice, which was then associated with socialism. And of all the socialist parties, the Bolsheviks were the most "decent." Because and ...
            1. sanya 5 June 2020 17: 29 New
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              Well, they worked then they signed the Brest peace
              They were very decent
              And an honest one scam with the purchase of steam engines is worth ...
              And from where did Trotsky have $ 100 million in Western banks? And why didn’t anyone take this money from Trotsky in the West?
              All the Bolsheviks were polls foreign agents.
              Lenin worked for Germany Trotsky for America Stalin for Great Britain
    3. Sugar Honeyovich 5 June 2020 13: 46 New
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      Quote: sanya
      towards Ekaterinoslav

      Those. where is Makhno? It would be strange if they listened to Slashchev ... laughing
      1. sanya 5 June 2020 15: 36 New
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        Slashchev beat Makhno in the tail and mane
        And by that time there were red ones and the rear
        And after the resignation of Slashchev, they still tried to do something from what he was offering but it was too late ....
        1. Sugar Honeyovich 5 June 2020 16: 18 New
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          Quote: sanya
          Slashchev beat Makhno in the tail and mane

          And Makhno - the entire Volunteer.
          Quote: sanya
          they still tried to do something ... but it was too late ....

          And they, the whites, always had this: it was late, it was early, but never-on time. And still not there and not so.
        2. koevoet1984 5 June 2020 16: 25 New
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          He beat, but didn’t. As a result, Makhno quickly restored the army; these Makhnovist "volunteers" did not join the White Army.
          This means that you are missing something in the strategy of victory.
          1. sanya 5 June 2020 17: 30 New
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            It would be a white army in Ukraine would go to it
            1. koevoet1984 6 June 2020 21: 02 New
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              Hto? Makhnovsky contingent? They mocked, after the defeats of Makhno, the local peasants there replenished the White Army "no way." They were preferable to the "Pan Ataman" or the Anarchist army. There the goals and objectives are clear.
              And then the White Army came, which does not apply to “give and share”.
              The whites themselves on the spot no longer hoped for this, and idealists who believed in such an option, but the “king-priest” with the Duma of the sobor, sovereign, in Constantinople and Paris, and Lemnos gained.
              1. sanya 6 June 2020 23: 28 New
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                The entire army of Petlyura completely surrendered to Slashchev with his incomplete corps and was sent to fight for the whites
                Would you familiarize yourself with civil history before fantasizing about these topics?
                1. koevoet1984 8 June 2020 19: 15 New
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                  Petlyura not = Makhno NI, the motivation of the fighters of the anarchists is different than that of the Petliurists.
                  They wouldn’t go in mass, well, a battalion, well, a regiment would be scored, they could. Volunteers were no longer recruited to the division.
                  The White people thought a lot of good about themselves, and then from Constantinople to America they puffed out their cheeks. True, they themselves understood that they were "not supported by the people."
                  1. sanya 8 June 2020 23: 03 New
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                    Yes, where does Makhno at all?
                    The territories that were under the red could give a lot of people
                    Any exit of whites outside the Crimea ended in the fact that they returned with thousands of new soldiers
                    There was no problem recruiting volunteers and prisoners of war in Ukraine who gladly switched to White service.
                    Moreover there are the rear of the Reds who fought with the Poles and weapons and warehouses and food
                    Access to the operational space from where it was possible to move in any direction and attack the same New Russia and go to the Polish border to Odessa
                    This was White’s only chance.
                    And they missed him
    4. Moore 6 June 2020 11: 02 New
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      Quote: sanya
      if then to Slashchev listened

      To do this, you must not be an object, but a subject in serious games. The masters of the position of Wrangel and their relatives by that time had already written down into the category of irretrievable expenses and thought only about the possible optimization of these costs.
      1. sanya 7 June 2020 15: 43 New
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        Here you can agree
        Wrangel turned out to be Mr.
        But Slashchev did not want to take all the power in the Crimea and the remnants of the white army upon himself
        But in essence Slashchev was right to step on it was necessary to Ukraine
  • Krasnoyarsk 5 June 2020 09: 46 New
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    Oh scribblers -
    = The defeat of the 13th Soviet Army in Northern Tavria =
    = It was not possible to completely destroy the 13th army. =
    I especially liked the “Russian Army” and the “Reds”. You might think to the ignorant that the “Reds” are not Russians.
    1. sanya 5 June 2020 09: 49 New
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      Reds are not Russian
      1. qQQQ 5 June 2020 10: 35 New
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        Quote: sanya
        Reds are not Russian

        If you expand on nat. composition, then I have no doubt that most Russians, like the whites.
        1. sanya 5 June 2020 10: 43 New
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          You say so as if the Bolsheviks were for the Russians
          The Bolsheviks fought Great Russian chauvinism and did not recognize any rights for the Russians
          1. Looking for 5 June 2020 16: 00 New
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            not without reason the Great Russian chauvinist Olgovich so hates them.
            1. gsev 5 June 2020 17: 33 New
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              Quote: Seeker
              Great Russian chauvinist Olgovich.

              This comrade was noted so far with a love for the characters who killed Russians mainly with German, English and French shells and never fired on interventionists during the civil war and foreign intervention in 1918-1922. It does not draw not only on the Russian chauvinist but even on the Russian patriot or nationalist.
          2. koevoet1984 5 June 2020 16: 37 New
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            Do not tell how quickly these Bolsheviks "ended" am ?
            As soon as one ambiguous historical personage, the "vertical of power" strengthened, looked around, realized that everything had gone, and that’s all ... Amba, "there are no others, but that one is farther (s), and the third ones are not rustling under the bench."
      2. Aviator_ 5 June 2020 21: 17 New
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        Yeah, all Martians. It is a pity my grandfather, who fought for the Reds, did not find out that he, it turns out, was not Russian. And in general, among the aliens was.
    2. parusnik 5 June 2020 10: 01 New
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      Krasnoyarsk
      I especially liked the “Russian Army” and the “Reds”. You might think to the ignorant that the “Reds” are not Russians.
      ....Naturally laughing The Red Army is Latvians, Chinese, Hungarians, Austrians smile Proceeding from such promises .. my ancestors fought in the civil war on the side of the Reds, and there were not a few of them, persons of the above nationalities .. smile And besides, executioners and murderers ... but it was they who defended the independence of our Motherland during the Great Patriotic War ... almost no one returned from the front ... Here is such a brainwashing ....
      1. Krasnoyarsk 5 June 2020 10: 10 New
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        Quote: parusnik
        Here is such a brainwashing ....

        To whom? Us with you? Crap one's pants!
        It’s simple, as I understand it, patients were released from the кан kanopachikoy dacha ’and some of them nest in VO.
        1. parusnik 5 June 2020 11: 13 New
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          It's hard for us ... smile but look at many commentators 99% of the nobles, Ryabushinsky and others ... smile
          1. Aviator_ 5 June 2020 21: 21 New
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            It was they who did not work at Ryabushinsky. And from this, even the apolitical professor N.E. Zhukovsky escaped as soon as he tasted his talent as a leader.
    3. Dr. Frankenstucker 5 June 2020 10: 39 New
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      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
      I especially liked the “Russian Army” and the “Reds”. You might think to the ignorant that the “Reds” are not Russians.


      So ignorant as not to know that the "Russian Army" is the official naming of the army of B. Wrangel? Or, for the ignorant, call it differently?
      1. Krasnoyarsk 5 June 2020 12: 01 New
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        Quote: Dr. Frankenstucker
        So ignorant

        Well, if you are so "knowledgeable", then tell us what the armies of Kolchak, Denikin, Yudenich and other mammoths were called.
        1. Dr. Frankenstucker 5 June 2020 12: 07 New
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          speech in the article, kmk, about the Wrangel army, called the "Russian". What makes you so nervous? Sentimental Baron and Constantinople in his memoirs refers to Constantinople. VSYUR renamed the Russian army. What is wrong?
      2. Looking for 5 June 2020 16: 04 New
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        all geeks like to call their army "Russian" by the way "the army" of Vlasov was also called RUSSIAN
  • DPN
    DPN 5 June 2020 10: 08 New
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    You simply carry Achinea, the time of the white-hunters has come, now you can write a lot after the PEOPLE were born in 1991. Strongly of course white, the Reds were beaten for 75 years. By the way, June 24 Who will we celebrate the victory? Wrangel or Zhukov ???
    1. sanya 5 June 2020 10: 23 New
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      You correctly formulated
      but not victory but the end of the civil ....
      1. qQQQ 5 June 2020 10: 37 New
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        Quote: sanya
        but not victory but the end of the civil ....

        Apparently, it is very far from the end, it was inflated again in 91.
        1. sanya 5 June 2020 10: 40 New
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          This is still far from the end / end of Soviet power ....
  • Operator 5 June 2020 12: 21 New
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    The “Russian Army” of Wrangel once looked weak - in terms of size with a gulkin nose against the background of the Red Army of 1920. In fact, Wrangel only parasitized on the temporary diversion of the Red Army to fight the Polish intervention and poured water on the mill of the Poles, who were able to make peace with the RSFSR on Polish conditions. Those. Wrangel actually worked to divide the "united and indivisible Russia" from which the western territories of Ukraine and Belarus were torn.

    It was only a matter of time to slam the dwarf "Russian Army" for the Red Army.
    1. Igoresha 5 June 2020 13: 38 New
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      about the essence of Wrangel only parasitized on the temporary distraction of the Red Army to fight the Polish intervention
      Wrangel complained in his memoirs that the Poles had finished the war without asking
    2. sanya 5 June 2020 13: 57 New
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      They even couldn’t slam one incomplete Slashchev’s corps in the Crimea
      1. Operator 5 June 2020 14: 05 New
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        Do not remind me when the corps of Slashchev (brother in arms of the White Poles) entered the White Stone? I remembered not shmog - in full force drowned in the Crimea laughing
        1. sanya 5 June 2020 15: 43 New
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          Cho for nonsense?
          Kindly get acquainted with what actually happened in Crimea and how Slashchev became Slashchev-Crimean
          1. Operator 5 June 2020 15: 56 New
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            Kindly familiarize yourself with the ally of the Poles Slashchev-Crimean on November 15, 1920 (the answer was leaked to the toilet).
            1. sanya 5 June 2020 16: 05 New
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              Do not grind nonsense
              The attack on Novorossia was a dead end as it is today
              The issue was resolved only in Ukraine.
              There were all prerequisites for this.
              And your beloved Bolsheviks many times later poured into the toilet
              1. Operator 5 June 2020 16: 15 New
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                I don’t know how the Bolsheviks are, but you have definitely been leaked to foreign agents.
  • koevoet1984 5 June 2020 13: 34 New
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    Quote: sanya
    A successful offensive in Ukraine on the rear of the Bolsheviks who then fought with the Poles times the support of the population could bring victory in the Civil War

    1) In Ukraine, a certain Makhno N.I. (remember this?) considerable support, unlike the White Crimea. And the “whites” will not agree to a contract with him, and they will “sickle” him into cocoons.
    2) Victory in the Civil War with the participation of Polish salvages, does it automatically assume that there is no spacecraft success in Belarus-Ukraine?
    How will the Wrangel and company agree with the Poles for Kiev-Volyn-Minsk-Bialystok? They will not give back, this is minus the territory of the country.
    But how to fight with France supported by Poland by the forces of the Russian Army due to the same France? No way, "understand and forgive" (c). Then, perhaps, by 1939)))
    3) Donbass and its mines, who are the lenders and owners? there is a lot of Olivier in the aforementioned homeland, and the surname is not in "-in-s, Prince Obolensky-Vyazemsky")))
    4) What will you do with Siberia? She didn’t want to be under white ALREADY for 1920, the “Kolchakites” in their memoirs thought of themselves a lot. Again sharing with the formation of the UNR? If the “whites” were victorious in 1921, the “whites” would have already received the Ishim insurrection, which was comparatively well-known and unspoken in the Soviet era, they would have crushed as well, and perhaps more fun.
    Will you name the reason for the inevitability?
    1. sanya 5 June 2020 13: 55 New
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      You say so as if the Bolsheviks did not give out lands
      For the Brest Peace and Finland
      Just the problem of the whites was that they stupidly did not want to give anything to anyone
      1. koevoet1984 5 June 2020 16: 14 New
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        They gave out who was arguing. In the light of the idea of ​​the future "United Communist Earth" is not right and wrong if you think about it. The idea itself can be treated differently, no doubt.
        But, as the unforgettable Ch.V.I. said, “but there is a nuance”: Belarus and Ukraine as a result were not surrendered, Central Asia, the Caucasus, the Far East were kept. The Baltic states?
        Finland and Poland inwardly felt the slack of "democratic Russia."
      2. Moore 6 June 2020 11: 22 New
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        Quote: sanya
        Just the problem of the whites was that they stupidly did not want to give anything to anyone

        And to whom did White have anything to “want”?
        The "allies" spoke to them in much the same way as they are now talking to some Papuan havtar from the Russian Foreign Ministry. Due to their political nearness, the white “leaders” could not organize elementary interaction among themselves - who would ask about their Wishlist? The task of the "allies" was to shed as much Russian blood as possible, which they succeeded. And if White won suddenly (which was practically impossible) - they would have explained everything to them about the post-war organization of the former territory of the Republic of Ingushetia.
  • acetophenon 5 June 2020 18: 53 New
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    Maybe I don’t know what, I even skipped classes at school, but honestly taught textbooks ...
    Where did it come from Soviet army in 1920 year? Just in case, I didn’t read further - I didn’t find my brains in the garbage dump, so that all kinds of them ...
  • Lynx-z 5 June 2020 21: 41 New
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    The author disrespects history. The Russian army is a household name and it is capitalized, but avoids writing the Red Army, which also has a household name. He writes simply reds or soviet ones (?!) .. The prejudice is alarming and the attitude to the texting is just as wary
  • Charlie 6 June 2020 20: 25 New
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    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    Quote: Olgovich
    In 1613 and forever.

    Nikolai ??? !!! In 1613 ??? !!!
    Long-liver, however? Or do you have a headache?
    Okay. These are all jokes. But seriously, then you, Olgovich, need to get hung up and go to normal logic.
    December 12, 1937 there were elections to the USSR Supreme Council based on the Constitution of 1936. By the way, read it. And compare with the current one. An unbiased person will immediately give preference to the 1936 Constitution.

    What are the elections in a state with a totalitarian regime and one active party. Do not tell me, I am a serious person.
    1. koevoet1984 6 June 2020 21: 36 New
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      And what's wrong with being selected from ONE batch?
      There is no need to refer to these “democracies”; there has been a decades-long choice of 2-3 traditional parties. Rarely does a third / fourth appear on the rights of a "sugar bone" (Look, we still have a party! But there’s 1 mandate of 1000 seats, well, democracy, unknown for 20 years))).
      That RI lived without parties (well, except that the palace drinks ))), so the Romanov dynasty stood for 300 years, and they lived like that before. They got a beast "multi-party", 10 years barely survived. The question is, yes, there is no connection.
      Apparently, the tsarist education was underdeveloped, the level was much lower than the one promoted, and the tsar’s dump was supported at times, and then they didn’t want to return to it, apparently the real social elevators are more complicated than in the presentation of Olgovich, and something with those Romanovs / substitute other applicants it was not so))
      Therefore, he chose the RSDLP (b), from those for 1918-1921. unity and adhesion, understanding of the bulk of the population. Again, accepting / not accepting ideology is another question, but everyone understands that the workers will have it, the peasants will have it, the scientific and technical intelligentsia (useful, and not the one that "my role in ....") will be so. Options are possible within the indicated limits, but what else is needed?
      Here the rest came together in inter-party disputes.