Military Review

Clothing of the northern "barbarians"

271

The triumph of the Roman emperor. Captured Germans spend on the streets of Rome. Drawing from the Soviet textbook on stories The ancient world for fifth grade. There are some inaccuracies, but on the whole, the idea of ​​the fashion of imperial Rome and its opponents is barbaric.


A woman should not have men's clothing.
Deuteronomy 22:5


Culture of clothes. In the Bronze Age, the ancient Germans developed a highly developed clothing culture, as evidenced by numerous historical finds. So the term "barbarian", which has a completely obvious meaning today, did not fit the Germans of that time completely, but only meant what the Romans understood by these concepts. And the Romans "barbarian" - this is just a "stranger." Moreover, the influence on the clothes of the Roman Empire from the “barbarians” was much stronger than from the Romans to the barbarians, which does not testify to the backwardness and imperfection of the costume of the same ancient Germans.

Clothing of the northern "barbarians"

Celt (left) battles the German. Fig. Angus McBride

The main type of clothing of the Greeks, Romans, and other representatives of the Mediterranean culture was a simple draped piece of linen, while the ancient Germans and Gauls in the west and Parthians in the east owned cutting and sewing techniques, as evidenced by bone and bronze needles found by archaeologists.


Bronze Daggers of the Bronze Age in Europe Army Museum, Paris

Naturally, a rather severe climate influenced the lifestyle of the Germans. Sleeves that appeared in their suit in the III century. BC, as well as pants that appeared even earlier, already in the VI century. BC, is the best confirmation of this. In the conditions of snowy and frosty winters, you can’t find yourself without pants and bare hands. By the way, it was they, the tribes of the North, who made the main revolution in clothing: since a person mounted a horse and put on his pants before it, clothing began to be divided into male and female!


Clothes from the column of Trajan. 113 year N. e. In the center is clearly visible German warrior, an ally of Rome: with a naked torso, but in trousers and with a club in his hand. Below and to the left is a duck with a painted oval shield, dressed in a tunic with narrow and long sleeves up to the wrists, in trousers and a raincoat. All the other ducks on this bas-relief are dressed in much the same way.

The Germans called the pants “Brugs”, and the Celts - “marriage”, “marriage”, which is consonant with the Russian word “pants”. The Romans despised this type of clothing for a long time. It is known that even special centurions walked around Rome, checking to see if there were any hated barbarian pants under the toga of citizens, but ... over time they had to admit that this clothing was funny, but convenient, especially for warriors and especially for riders.


Clothes from the column of Trajan. And here the Roman warriors are already depicted wearing breeches like pants ...

It was the Germans who began to subdivide clothing according to the seasons into winter and summer and brought in chests for its out-of-season storage. Well, in general, it should be said that the clothing of the Germans was not inferior to the clothes of the ancient Greeks and Romans in quality and decoration, and in terms of expediency, of course, it surpassed it.

“I myself join the opinion of those who believe that the tribes inhabiting Germany, who have never been mixed through marriages with any foreigners, are primordially special, preserving their original purity and only resembling themselves. Hence, despite such a number of people, all of them have the same appearance: hard blue eyes, blond hair, tall bodies, capable of only short-term effort; at the same time, they lack patience to work hard and hard, and they cannot stand thirst and heat at all, while the weather and soil taught them to easily endure cold and hunger. ”

(Cornelius Tacitus. On the origin of the Germans and the location of Germany, 98 AD)

Based on the findings of archaeologists, we can imagine what the clothes of men and women - Germans of the Bronze Age era looked like. Women wore summer short-sleeved, one-piece linen blouses. The long skirt was supported by a wide leather belt with long tassels, decorated with a bronze disk instead of a buckle. A dagger in a leather scabbard could hang from a belt. Skillful bronze jewelery — a diadem, bracelet, and chest jewelry — were not uncommon. Moreover, women participated in battles, being in the ranks with men. Their task was primarily to scare the enemy with loud screams. The warrior man was armed with a long sword and a dagger with bronze handles. The animal skin cloak was fastened with a bronze fastener medallion. Bracelets in the shape of a solar disk on the wrists and forearms, as well as a belt decorated with plaques showed its high status. The warrior could wear a skirt to the knees with a fringe of coarse wool. On her feet were leather sandals, both women and men had them.


German woman surrounded by Roman legionnaires. Fig. Angus McBride

However, this type of women's dress is also known, which could belong to girls participating in dances, or priestesses. Their short woolen skirt was made of woolen threads enclosed in bronze tubes, as a result of which such a skirt made a sound with every movement of its owner. The dress included heavy jewelry with a spiral, star or wavy pattern. This strange type of costume has existed for many centuries, and its details and jewelry are exhibited in many museums in Europe.


Gold jewelry from the British Museum

The Germans' underwear was a linen tunic-skirt made of a quadrangular piece of knee-length fabric. The tunic was held on shoulders on leather straps with bronze clasps. The lower end of the tunic was belted on the hips with a woolen belt with tassels. On top of the puffins, they could wear a woolen cloak or a piece of skin with the fur inside, which was fastened with a pin on the chest. In descriptions of ancient German clothing, sewn jackets made of wool or animal skins with sleeves are often found.


Pants from Torsberg. Schleswig Museum, Germany

Pants made of wool or linen with a wide belt were an indispensable attribute of their clothes, as they protected from the cold. In addition, they also served as underwear, and were extremely comfortable for riding, as mentioned in the XNUMXth century. Roman writer Sidonin. Much has been written about the weapons and protective equipment of the Germans by Tacitus.


Gallic warriors of the III – II centuries BC Fig. Angus McBride

“They also have little iron, as can be inferred from the nature of their offensive weapons. They rarely use swords or long spears, but act against darts, or, as they call it, a fromey, with narrow and short iron tips, weapons so sharp and comfortable that, depending on circumstances, they fight hand-to-hand, and from afar. Even the riders are content with a framey and a shield, while the infantrymen also launch throwing spears, each of several pieces, and they, naked or in a short cloak, throw them at a great distance. They imperceptibly have the slightest desire to flaunt decorations, and they paint only shields with bright colors. We are looking for only a few shells, only one or the other for metal or leather. ”

(Cornelius Tacitus. "On the Origin of the Germans and the Location of Germany", 98 AD)


Findings from a burial in the Khoga barrow, Uppsala, Sweden. Around 1000 BC e. State Historical Museum, Stockholm

“Everyone’s outerwear is a short cloak, fastened with a buckle, if not, then with a spike. Nothing else covered, they spend whole days at the fire kindled in the hearth. The richest are distinguished by the fact that, in addition to a cloak, they also have other clothes, but not waving, like the Sarmatians or Parthians, but narrow and tight-fitting. They wear skins of wild animals ... Women’s clothes are not different from men’s clothes, except that women often wear linen cloaks, which they color with purple paint, and sleeves do not come down from their shoulders, so that their arms are open from top to bottom, as open and part of the chest near them. "

(Cornelius Tacitus. "On the Origin of the Germans and the Location of Germany", 98 AD)


Hog Mound. Below are tweezers and a dangerous bronze razor with a handle entwined with gold wire. State Historical Museum, Stockholm

Shoes, both male and female, were simple: the sole in the form of a piece of durable leather with a perforated edge. Laces were inserted into its holes, with which the edges were pulled up and wrapped around the foot. From the ankle to the knees, the legs were covered with windings of linen or wool.


Burial comb in Uppland, Sweden. State Historical Museum, Stockholm


It was customary not only to comb your hair, but also to clean your ears! Ear spoon. Uppland, Sweden. State Historical Museum, Stockholm

Headwear also did not differ in complexity and sophistication: a hood or a cap in the shape of a hemisphere from sheared fur. But the hair of the Germans made a very strong impression on the Romans. The long blonde hair of German women aroused their admiration, as did the hair of women from Denmark and Britain. Male Germanic beards shaved and generally had a habit of caring for their vegetation, as evidenced not only by razors found in male burials, but also by tweezers for plucking hair.


Reconstruction of the appearance of “a man from Klonikavan”. OK. IV - III centuries BC. National Museum of Ireland, Dublin


"Woman from Elling" and her hairstyle. Silkeborg Museum, Denmark

The findings of the so-called bog people, that is, bodies that have fallen into peat bogs and, due to the specific features of the swamp environment of the mummified ones, also help scientists to judge the “mods” and hairstyles of the Bronze Age. There are such finds in England, Denmark and in Germany. For example, on the head of a “man from Tollund” there was even a pointed leather cap sewn with fur inside, just like fairy-tale gnomes; a woolen dress was found next to the burial of the "woman from Huldremose", etc. And the “man from Klonikavan” allowed me to get some idea of ​​hairstyles. It turns out that he had hair styling with a mixture of resin with vegetable oil. The “man from Osterby” had a knot of hair above his right temple, and the Roman historian Tacitus pointed out that such hairstyles belonged to people from the Suevi tribe.


Golden pendant of Roman time. OK. 200-400 g. National History Museum, Copenhagen


Gold pendant. Found in Hvorslevgard, Jutland. OK. 500-540 National Historical Museum, Copenhagen

Like all barbarians, the Germans loved jewelry. Bracelets in the form of curled snakes with eyes made of rubies, beads, earrings, pendants, brooches, hairpins - all this could be made of bronze and gold. So compared to them, the same Romans looked very modest, and even patricians of the era of the empire. Checkered, bright fabrics from which tunics and trousers were sewn, patterns in the form of runic signs embroidered on clothes, again long trousers and long narrow sleeves, the use of fur, an abundance of bronze and gold ornaments - all this made them incomprehensible and “alien” to the Romans !

To be continued ...
Author:
Articles from this series:
Bull skin and wooden slippers: clothes of hunters and warriors of the Stone Age
Ancient Egypt: clothing of the pharaohs, warriors, peasants
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  1. Catfish
    Catfish 13 June 2020 05: 20 New
    +2
    Good morning friends! hi
    Vyacheslav Olegich, thanks, pleased! It turns out that I owe my "cowboy" pants to a gloomy German genius.
    In the conditions of snowy and frosty winters, you can’t find yourself without pants and bare hands.
    And, I would add, you won’t fight. smile
    I’m probably again accused of Russophobia trilbism, I just want to ask the “leavened” patriots about the health of a “truly Russian animal”. And surely one of them will begin to prove that the pants were invented in Russia.
    1. mark1
      mark1 13 June 2020 05: 52 New
      40
      Quote: Sea Cat
      And surely one of them will begin to prove that the pants were invented in Russia.

      Of course not. In Russia, before coming of age they wore shirts (until the tip of the genital organ began to stick out from under the hem). After the onset of such an important event, the Russian picked up a club and went for pants to Germany.
      1. Phil77
        Phil77 13 June 2020 07: 05 New
        12
        Quote: mark1
        After the onset of such an important event, the Russian picked up a club and went for pants to Germany.

        I liked your option! laughing laughing laughing I love humor! good
        1. mark1
          mark1 13 June 2020 07: 33 New
          27
          That's not all ... A large number of Russians without pants and with clubs on German roads complicated the quiet burgher life of German barbarians (again, the growth of cases of hooliganism) and this was the basis for the issue of pants, which later grew to the city of Osnabruck (literally with Old German - STOP! ON TROUSERS and blow home(the latter has left the name of the city over the centuries))
          1. mark1
            mark1 13 June 2020 18: 02 New
            +1
            Perhaps this was the very first reparation from Germany
        2. Serg koma
          Serg koma 13 June 2020 16: 51 New
          +1
          Quote: mark1
          Russian picked up a club and went for pants in Germany.
          good
          campaigns "for zipuns" were the main article of material supply for the Cossack army
          - you can’t throw words out of a song laughing
      2. vladcub
        vladcub 13 June 2020 17: 58 New
        +2
        Quote: mark1
        Quote: Sea Cat
        And surely one of them will begin to prove that the pants were invented in Russia.

        Of course not. In Russia, before coming of age they wore shirts (until the tip of the genital organ began to stick out from under the hem). After the onset of such an important event, the Russian picked up a club and went for pants to Germany.

        Ancestor Stenki Razin went for his pants, and Razin "went for zipuns"
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 13 June 2020 21: 20 New
          +2
          By the way, Vlad is well thought out! Jeans - German, slippers - Turkish, bathrobe - Persian !!! They did not go to tights and kilts to France and Scotland! Not our fashion however! Although I’m lying at the request of my wife twice in Paris. The first for the cap, the second for perfume! They are still ours - remember bistro !!! laughing
          1. Liam
            Liam 13 June 2020 21: 31 New
            +1
            Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
            They are still ours - remember bistro !!!

            And what is the connection between the Bistro and the Russians?
            1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka 13 June 2020 22: 30 New
              +1
              The French themselves write that the "bistro" appeared after the defeat of France in the Napoleonic wars. Our Cossacks loved to demand a "mustache quickly" in our taverns and taverns!
              1. Liam
                Liam 13 June 2020 23: 08 New
                0
                Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
                The French themselves write that the "bistro" appeared after the defeat of France in the Napoleonic wars. Our Cossacks loved to demand a "mustache quickly" in our taverns and taverns!

                "The French themselves" write such nonsense only in RuNet. The term Bistro appeared 70 years later than the Napoleonic Wars and has nothing to do with Russian
                1. user1212
                  user1212 14 June 2020 12: 43 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Liam
                  "The French themselves" write such nonsense only in RuNet


                  https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bistro
                  This is probably a bike, but the French do write such a thing
                  1. Liam
                    Liam 14 June 2020 13: 58 New
                    0
                    Where you found this photo, everything is written. The “Russian” trace in this word is exactly 0. By the way, try translating from French what exactly is written on the plate
          2. vladcub
            vladcub 14 June 2020 10: 47 New
            +1
            The namesake, by analogy with the "bistro", I remembered: "Orly" -Orlik, remember such a "friend"?
      3. fuxila
        fuxila 14 June 2020 13: 17 New
        0
        In Russia, before coming of age they wore shirts (until the tip of the genital organ began to stick out from under the hem). After the onset of such an important event, the Russian picked up a club and went for pants to Germany.

        The Russians didn’t need a club, they crushed German skulls with that very tip sticking out from under the hem, and only then they took off their pants from the Aryan blind men. laughing
        1. mark1
          mark1 14 June 2020 17: 06 New
          0
          It’s just that the Russians had two clubs
          1. abrakadabre
            abrakadabre 14 June 2020 19: 55 New
            0
            It’s just that the Russians had two clubs
            Which from under the shirt is the club of the last chance ...
    2. cradle
      cradle 13 June 2020 05: 53 New
      +6
      Quote: Sea Cat
      And surely one of them will begin to prove that the pants were invented in Russia.

      Well, given that the Gottes arrived from Crimea through the territory of the Eastern Slavs, having tasted a cudgel on the East European Plain, what bothers in this version? Or did they come from the Crimea to the territory of the Slavs (Slavic, Puddle, Silesian) and did not borrow a good idea with clothes? What is the contradiction? The Slavs lived wider than Russia, if that. Slavs rule !!!
    3. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 13 June 2020 06: 25 New
      +7
      Konstantin, good morning!
      I join in thanks to Vyacheslav Olegovich !!!
      The ability of the ancient Greeks and Romans to wear toga was always surprising. This is not for you to get into your pants or skirt. Only along the edge up to 6 meters of fabric !!! Try to wrap yourself up without help! wink
      By the origin of trousers, knickers.
      . The most ancient find of this garment was made during excavation of the Yanhai [d] burial site (Yanghai, 42 ° 48′ – 42 ° 49′N, 89 ° 39′ – 89 ° 40′E), located near the Turfan oasis (northwest China). Woolen trousers about 3000 years old were discovered in two graves (dating from radiocarbon analysis: between the XNUMXth and XNUMXth centuries BC).

      So the “Quaspatriots” have a chance to prove that the owners of those “pants” were purebred mermaids !!! But you need to endow the first with test trotters to explain what they did there !!! repeat
      Now on the etymology! Pants - this is a later borrowing from the Dutch (dates back to the time of Peter I). Pants - of Turkic origin, is also not an indicator that Russia is the homeland of elephants, fie pants!
      There is truth and sincerely ours - socks !!! If you develop a theme, then? fellow
      Although I think it's easier! Describing the Germans, Tacitus writes about our ancestors, since during this period the process of the disintegration of a single community into Germans, Balts and Slavs is only outlined. So alas, despite the fact that the nomadic Scythians with trousers were ahead of us, according to the work of Herodotus, we with our portki still lit up in history !!! lol
      Case for small! Overthrow the history of Herodotus, or cling to the Black Sea Scythians !!! Although B. Rybakov did it to suffer for us!
      Shovels comrades in the arms and archaeological site! The task is to dig out “Puss in Boots”, tfu - a Slav in the ports !!! what
      I wonder who came up with underwear? This is not what you thought “bikini-bikini and lace panties”, but seed panties !!! After all, definitely ours! So do not care - these ports !!! The parity is set!
      With sincere respect, I’m sorry I couldn’t resist.
      Van Vlad and good day to all !!!
      1. Phil77
        Phil77 13 June 2020 07: 02 New
        +7
        Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
        and seed cowards !!! After all, definitely ours!

        Good morning friends!
        Vlad, you weren’t mistaken! This is really OUR. In the 20s, they were conceived as a variant of sportswear, but then they just went, what’s called * people *. I’ll notice that in the West they were almost the same underpants, but .... narrowed. laughing Our more loose cut. That's something like that.
        Yours! hi
        1. Phil77
          Phil77 13 June 2020 07: 22 New
          +5
          To this I add that in the official nomenclature of sewing products they were referred to as: * plain simplified shorts *! Well, they slowly and lightly converted to the current * boxers *.
          Damn, an interesting topic * muddied * Vyacheslav Olegovich! Thanks to him! laughing
      2. Korsar4
        Korsar4 13 June 2020 07: 36 New
        +8
        Now we give the floor to Ilf and Petrov:

        “All this splendor was breaking on a small piece of paper stuck at the front door of the store:“ There are no pants. ”
      3. Engineer
        Engineer 13 June 2020 15: 21 New
        +6
        The invention by the Slavs of pants is proved elementarily by the method of the Operator
        1. The oldest pants in the Turfan oasis are dated 13-10 centuries BC
        2. Synchronous Caucasoid apparently Indo-European culture - Andronovo is very close
        3. The haplogroup of at least one of the Andronovites -R1a
        Checkmate Russophobia am am
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 13 June 2020 18: 07 New
          0
          Checkmate Russophobia am am

          Based on these conditions! The first rioters were bull riders! good
          Although if without ernism, according to the same Operator! Ancestors walked in our trousers, both Russian and German, so it would be necessary to share the “copyright money” among a dozen applicants !!!
          1. abrakadabre
            abrakadabre 14 June 2020 20: 00 New
            +2
            The first rioters were bull riders
            That is, all sorts of Chukchi (and their predecessors) learned about pants only from the Cossacks?
            1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka 14 June 2020 20: 17 New
              0
              Quote: abrakadabre
              The first rioters were bull riders
              That is, all sorts of Chukchi (and their predecessors) learned about pants only from the Cossacks?

              Did Cossacks conquer Siberia on cattle?
              Ah, brothers, devils straddled something!
              The culture of "riders on the bulls or drilled axes" of the ancestors of Andronovtsy and Srubnaya culture !!!
              The Chukchi, despite the many jokes about them, figured out their pants so long before Khabarov, Atlosov and Dezhnev!
              1. abrakadabre
                abrakadabre 15 June 2020 13: 00 New
                0
                The Chukchi, despite the many jokes about them, figured out their pants so long before Khabarov, Atlosov and Dezhnev!
                Well, thank God. And then I was frightened that before the invention of the pants by the Germans / Slavs, other peoples of the world went without them. What's in the tundra, what's in the Himalayas
    4. Vasilenko Vladimir
      Vasilenko Vladimir 13 June 2020 06: 48 New
      +4
      Quote: Sea Cat
      what pants invented in Russia.

      actually it is believed that the Scythians
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 13 June 2020 10: 12 New
        +3
        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
        Quote: Sea Cat
        what pants invented in Russia.

        actually it is believed that the Scythians

        Let me supplement you a little!
        Just the first mention of the Greeks about the pants of the Scythians. They invented them, or who else is silent about the story !!!
        The most interesting thing is that the North American Indians did not disdain trousers either! Naked fifth place H.Columba was met only by natives of the Caribbean islands.
        This autochthonous invention or borrowed from neighbors from far Siberia we also do not know !!!
        On the other hand, Vyacheslav Olegovich touched upon such an “epic topic” that it’s a sin not to scare!
        A shaman jumps around the fire and thanks the spirits, “thanks for the pants. Now we will conquer - the north "!!! laughing
      2. Icelord
        Icelord 13 June 2020 13: 10 New
        +1
        Maybe so, but the Scythians are not Slavs even once
        1. Vasilenko Vladimir
          Vasilenko Vladimir 13 June 2020 17: 55 New
          +2
          Quote: Icelord
          Maybe so, but the Scythians are not Slavs even once

          Slavs are an ethno-LINGUISTIC group, that is, not only blood but also language, and with the Scythians there is such a railway station bazaar that every second has its own opinion, with something necessarily proved by something
          1. Icelord
            Icelord 14 June 2020 13: 28 New
            +1
            So and I about the same. Art is different, culture is different, funeral rites are different, religion is different, weapons are different. What are the Slavs here
        2. andrew42
          andrew42 17 June 2020 17: 57 New
          -1
          Skif and Sloven, who founded Slovensk (Novgorod) on the river. Mutnoy (Volkhov). - these would be very surprised. The epochs are different, but apart from the Scythians (in the broad sense), the Slavs simply have no one to descend from. Taurian Scythians are just a side relic branch, and they ended badly. The Slavs are the overgrowth of the main trunk.
    5. Korsar4
      Korsar4 13 June 2020 07: 32 New
      +6
      Let us return to the near times and evaluate the need for trousers, based on fiction.

      Opens the hit parade, of course, A. K. Tolstoy:

      “At one jump he left the bed
      And he began to put them on in ecstasy ”(c).
      1. Phil77
        Phil77 13 June 2020 07: 42 New
        +8
        * Phew, how rude! -Said Ostap, coming in. -It’s immediately obvious, the province! They would write as they write In Moscow * There is no trouser *. more- * No ports *. laughing
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 13 June 2020 07: 47 New
          +6
          This is the second thought. Just in time for Vladislav’s comment.

          The list of essentials is continued by Marshak:

          “He put his hands in his sleeves -
          It turned out to be trousers. ”
          1. Phil77
            Phil77 13 June 2020 07: 55 New
            +5
            * Pants, pants — you're dirty!
            -We are not pants, we are pants!
            Trousers fall from me
            need to give the pants a belt! ... *
            How would the difference between trousers and pants? laughing
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 13 June 2020 07: 58 New
              +6
              The scope, when you can lose the most necessary, showed Yesenin:

              “Each of us laid
              For a glass of your pants ”(c).
      2. Phil77
        Phil77 13 June 2020 08: 00 New
        +6
        * Today suddenly, in one of the dreams
        I ended up without pants.
        In a dream I woke up drunk
        and thought that I would not get up.
        The bed is alien. The house is not mine.
        Why am I here? I want to go home!
        Hunting is more than itching. Hurry to escape from here! ... *
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 13 June 2020 08: 09 New
          10
          In Kin-Dza-Dza! appropriate place was assigned to the pants:

          “When a society has no color differentiation of pants, then there is no purpose!”
          1. Phil77
            Phil77 13 June 2020 08: 13 New
            +6
            Oh, and Daniela prophesied! On our head something. wink
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 13 June 2020 08: 19 New
              +8
              About masks may be a separate article.
              1. Phil77
                Phil77 13 June 2020 08: 21 New
                +5
                Better not!!!! laughing
                1. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 13 June 2020 08: 23 New
                  +8
                  One plague doctor is worth what, and Venetian masks.
                  1. Phil77
                    Phil77 13 June 2020 08: 28 New
                    +6
                    Guy Fox! Out of competition !!!! bully
                    1. vladcub
                      vladcub 13 June 2020 18: 23 New
                      +2
                      "special centurions who checked whether hateful barbarian pants are under the toga of citizens" after millennia, our DND officers checked that they did not wear long hair.
                      That's where it went to fight the "wrong" fashion
                  2. Phil77
                    Phil77 13 June 2020 15: 09 New
                    +4
                    And you notice, Sergey, that we meet at the base, on the articles of Vyacheslav Olegovich!
                    Attract us with his articles! hi
                    1. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 13 June 2020 15: 12 New
                      +4
                      Here the combination should be themes, moods and free time.

                      And since half of humanity is in trousers - how not to talk about it.
                      1. Phil77
                        Phil77 13 June 2020 15: 16 New
                        +4
                        Perhaps. But I am attracted by the spirit of freedom of love, the opportunity to discuss without any rudeness on the part of the opponent and the nice people in the comments! hi
                        Oh !!!! Jinxed !!!! Something someone didn’t like! Mask, mask! I know you!
                      2. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 13 June 2020 15: 43 New
                        +5
                        Forums are generally pretty masquerade. But you can only play convincingly yourself.
                      3. Phil77
                        Phil77 13 June 2020 16: 29 New
                        +3
                        Well, you wrapped up !!!!
                        To this:
                        - * cells, cells, cells.
                        as in the subway trolleys .... *
                      4. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 13 June 2020 16: 44 New
                        +3
                        "In Bougainville, Kentucky
                        These trousers are on sale ”(c).
                    2. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 13 June 2020 18: 36 New
                      +2
                      Well, why? I hope I am convincing enough in my game?
                    3. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 13 June 2020 18: 53 New
                      +2
                      Not enough information. In another forum - you would be slightly different. You probably also speak differently with the workers.

                      The image has developed, of course. But how close is it to reality?
                      On the other hand, we know each other a little better with each conversation.
                    4. The comment was deleted.
                    5. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 13 June 2020 19: 04 New
                      +2
                      Not enough information.
                      Absolutely right! As the Doctor used to say: "We are all binary characters."
                    6. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 13 June 2020 19: 06 New
                      +1
                      Now for me it’s a mystery - what was hidden in the deleted comment?
                    7. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 13 June 2020 19: 12 New
                      +2
                      I deleted it. I read yours incorrectly and hastened to answer.
                    8. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 13 June 2020 19: 16 New
                      +1
                      So I understood.

                      How did Tyutchev once surprisingly say:
                      "A spoken thought is a lie."
                    9. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 13 June 2020 19: 23 New
                      +2
                      And already published - and even more so! What elevates your current opponent to the absolute.
                    10. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 13 June 2020 19: 40 New
                      +1
                      Stopped responding. I realized that if I watch all the videos (but you won’t answer otherwise), I won’t bring it to good.

                      At the same time, the number of views is impressive.

                      However, there is hope that any communication can benefit.
                    11. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 13 June 2020 19: 51 New
                      0
                      The difference between us and similar characters is that we are confident in our innocence, but we doubt, and they are confident in our doubts.
                    12. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 13 June 2020 19: 57 New
                      +1
                      And there is. I am writing - and there are doubts.

                      What do I know about swamps? Is there a difference in the decomposition of organics on the top and bottom? What is the rate of accumulation of the cultural layer? And if garbage is taken out? Etc.

                      What I did not feel with my own hands, then when I receive new information, I can slightly change the picture of the world.
                    13. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 13 June 2020 20: 17 New
                      +1
                      Here you see? You, the candidate of biological sciences, acknowledge your ignorance of some issues, and the character, having grabbed the “tops”, inspired by one idea (they make a fool of me), rushing like a “Belaz” according to Nevsky.
                    14. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 13 June 2020 20: 23 New
                      +1
                      This is already psychology, probably.

                      Lorenz mentioned the experience of minnow. The forebrain was removed, so the pack began to follow him.
                    15. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 13 June 2020 20: 31 New
                      +1
                      I agree, psychology, with it, flock.
                    16. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 13 June 2020 20: 39 New
                      +1
                      Flocks are likely to form everywhere.

                      Sherkhan walked alone, and that and that with the accompanying.
                    17. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 13 June 2020 21: 17 New
                      +2
                      Inadequate example. Mowgli is a cocktail of the author’s impressions of British romanticism and Victorian reality. Kipling did not know anything about flocking and social psychology.
                    18. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 13 June 2020 21: 22 New
                      +2
                      He knew and felt a lot. And the verses are proof of this.
                      But, of course, one cannot directly extrapolate to the life of animals and people.
  • mark1
    mark1 13 June 2020 08: 46 New
    +5
    Quote: Phil77
    Hunting is more than itching. Hurry to escape from here! ... *


    No way back to the leg
    I can’t get in ...
    Find the middle
    Do not fall off the chair.l
    1. Phil77
      Phil77 13 June 2020 14: 48 New
      +2
      Quote: mark1
      Quote: Phil77
      Hunting is more than itching. Hurry to escape from here! ... *


      No way back to the leg
      I can’t get in ...
      Find the middle
      Do not fall off the chair.l

      Ha ha ha ha! laughing There, after all, there is also about a skirt! laughing
      1. mark1
        mark1 13 June 2020 15: 26 New
        +4
        This quatrain was suitable for your rhyme. laughing
        1. Phil77
          Phil77 13 June 2020 15: 44 New
          +2
          * all the kids are walking,
          I'm in a hurry home.
          Why panties are needed
          I’ll ask mom ... * laughing
  • Catfish
    Catfish 13 June 2020 16: 08 New
    +4
    "The guys shouldn’t be naughty, so take off your pants." (with)

    Pants, as the last and symbolic barrier to the beginning of repression.
    1. Phil77
      Phil77 13 June 2020 16: 17 New
      +4
      Konstantin !!! ¡!!! Hello !!!! Well, absolutely not our method !!!!!!
      laughing
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 13 June 2020 16: 36 New
        +3
        Seryozha, hi! hi
        Maybe you're right. Texans say the Colt revolver is an extension of their penis. Interestingly, and the belt in the punisher’s hand is a continuation of what?
        1. Phil77
          Phil77 13 June 2020 16: 43 New
          +2
          Soooo!? Let's start with philosophy? Al with erotica?
          * Revolver Colt, as a subject of high erotic culture *?!? !! The question is to whom? Correctly! To Olegych! And he is silent !!!!!!!
        2. Phil77
          Phil77 13 June 2020 16: 45 New
          +3
          And ...... very correct! Party! Direct question !!!! And where is he, actually ??????
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 13 June 2020 16: 51 New
            +3
            ... direct question !!!! And where is he, actually ??????

            Who?!!! what
        3. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 13 June 2020 18: 41 New
          +2
          In my case, a washing machine!
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 13 June 2020 21: 18 New
            +3
            Belt, or ... really? !!! wassat
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 13 June 2020 21: 28 New
              +3
              Uncle, stop you in your indefatigable fantasies! If you remember, Soviet washing machines had a removable rubber hose. With which my mother and flogged me. In general, I can’t say that it’s not good.
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 13 June 2020 21: 33 New
                +4
                With which my mother flogged me. In general, I can’t say that it’s not good.

                Well, it's only you, so as not to offend your mom, he said. And my mother was tearing me up with my father’s suspenders, so daddy participated, so to speak, indirectly. But judging by my future life, everything was in vain - not a cat feed. request
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 13 June 2020 21: 54 New
                  +3
                  Well, it's only you, so as not to offend your mom, he said.
                  Not at all. In addition to life, and she still fought for her a year after my birth, however, like my father, I owe my mother a practical streak in character. And the hose from the washing machine played a significant role here.
                2. Catfish
                  Catfish 13 June 2020 22: 07 New
                  +3
                  Let's not talk about sad things ... I am only happy that my mother managed to see her first grandson before leaving. So it goes...
      2. Lexus
        Lexus 13 June 2020 20: 42 New
        +3
        Interestingly, and the belt in the punisher’s hand is a continuation of what?

        Konstantin, good health!
        It is important to understand who is punishing whom and whom. bully In modern life, the presence of pants, alas, does not always imply the presence of a "classic Colt" in them. winked
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 13 June 2020 21: 21 New
          +2
          Hi Aleksey! hi Well, one of them has a club instead of Colt, but what the other one has in his suitcase is still the question!
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 13 June 2020 17: 54 New
    +3
    A return to the bursa experience.
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 13 June 2020 18: 15 New
      +3
      So there was something to flog. smile
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 13 June 2020 18: 17 New
        +3
        More successful than with Pannochka came out.
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 13 June 2020 18: 28 New
          +3
          So, here he has a bottle of elixir here, but he didn’t use a bottle, like. Hence the conclusion ... Look, Seryoga has already run to the store. wink
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 13 June 2020 18: 56 New
            +2
            Some conclusions are the same.

            “In the interval I drove used to the store” (c).
    2. Phil77
      Phil77 13 June 2020 18: 28 New
      +2
      I’ll answer, let’s go to the store. Patience. Two ya. and I. who is where? who is right?
  • Gato
    Gato 14 June 2020 12: 28 New
    +1
    "You came to classes in the pants of a potential adversary!" (WITH)
  • Krasnoyarsk
    Krasnoyarsk 13 June 2020 08: 04 New
    +5
    Quote: Sea Cat
    animal. "And for sure one of them will begin to prove that the pants were invented in Russia.

    No, what are you. How could these northern barbarians invent pants? They had a climate like in Africa, and they did not need pants, as well as the Chukchi, Evenki and all sorts of Nenets.
    But the Germans - yes. They, in the conditions of their harsh climate, without pants in any way. lol
    Shpakovsky again burns. But no, to blame, this is Tacitus.
    And where is the guarantee that Tacitus is not Shpakovsky of his time?
  • Bar1
    Bar1 13 June 2020 08: 36 New
    +5
    The evolution of clothing development is best traced by the example of the Scottish kilt skirts.





    a piece of TARTAN is taken. Is this checkered matter, is it the name? And in a cunning way, a person is packed for a long and tedious way. They write that kilts are very "practical and convenient."
    It is believed that the kilts were invented in the 16th century, and before the 16th century the Scots walked in pants. But the distribution of kilts was only in the middle of the 19th century, and NOW the Scots changed into pants again, because the “practical and comfortable” wearing of kilts actually turned out to be impractical and not convenient.
    Here's the story with the kilts, first they wore pants, then they used to wear little kilts, and now they again wear pants.
  • Edward Vashchenko
    Edward Vashchenko 13 June 2020 12: 02 New
    +5
    Russia is the birthplace of pants!
  • vladcub
    vladcub 13 June 2020 17: 33 New
    +2
    Of course, after all, Russia is the birthplace of elephants
  • Basil50
    Basil50 13 June 2020 06: 00 New
    +2
    Today, the Roman Empire is accepted only in * superlatives * and nothing else. Especially today, following Hitler, Europeans are firmly convinced that they are * descendants of roofing felts of the ancient Greeks, roofing felts of the ancient Romans *. From that to all peoples outside Europe necessarily add * barbarian *, without even realizing that the barbarian means - * not Hellenic *
    By the way, it is very interesting how these Romans waged wars. We are talking about the famous military rebuilding and about courage. In fact, the Romans waged war against a few tribes, as a rule with a huge numerical superiority. And how court historians know how to LY we know. In ancient times, they lied even more inspiredly, some even in rhyme.
    Nomads fought in about the same way, as soon as there are a lot of them, you can fight, rob, and then write heroic stories.
    As a model of lies, you can take the writings of the Byzantines about the war with Svyatoslav, near the town of DOROSTOL.
    And more about the * savagery of the barbarians *. In Rome, they loved parchment on human skin, especially on the skin of children captured from * barbarians *. Therefore, relatives of the ruined children burned books. Even so, giving burial to tortured children.
    Although in England and the Vatican still keep books written on the skin of children.
    (about the conviction of origin. He himself witnessed how students at the German university argued on this subject, clutched at their breasts, but tolerance didn’t allow them to fight.)
    1. Free wind
      Free wind 13 June 2020 07: 04 New
      +1
      Germans are fair-haired, blue-eyed. Europeans themselves do not belong to the descendants of the Romans. Where in the word barbarian, the particle is not and Hellenic. Moreover, the Romans did not attribute themselves to the Hellenes. We are now talking about the gatherings of the same inhabitants of Asia, they say: they mumble something in their own way, gr, gr, gr, and that the figs knows him. Describing strangers in the same way, the Roman said, he mutters that it is a var, a var, and what he says is incomprehensible, well, the barbarian went. To conquer, a numerical superiority is needed, and this was then known. Leather dressing, manufacturing is a very long process. The removed skin needs to be saved to the workshop, usually it is salting, but salt was not enough for grub. One body, one leaf. Imagine how many were killed and skinned near such workshops, and where the bodies disappeared. In Christianity, human sacrifice is forbidden. Somehow I can’t imagine the gospel written on human skin. Especially on children's skin, it is most likely impractical, thin and fragile.
      1. Senior seaman
        Senior seaman 13 June 2020 13: 05 New
        +1
        Anthrodermic binding is a book binding made of human skin. Today, this technique is not used, but in XVII — XIX Over the centuries, it has been distributed quite widely [1]. The practice of anthropodermal binding is inextricably linked with the practice of tanning human skin after dissections body of the donor.

        That is, this is not about the Romans.
    2. Basil50
      Basil50 13 June 2020 09: 33 New
      +1
      I witnessed how students argued in all seriousness. I saw and heard this.
      The concept of * Hellen * included a lot of things, from origin, education and behavior in everyday life. Not everyone who lived in Ancient Greece belonged to * Hellenes *. There and * poganos * lived both slaves and foreigners.
      The Greeks were proud of their well-groomed beards. Like their ancestors Pelasgians. The incredulous should look at the busts of ancient Greek that have come down to us and their Roman counterparts.
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 13 June 2020 06: 06 New
    +5
    The main type of clothing of the Greeks, Romans and other representatives of the Mediterranean culture was a simple draped piece of linen, while the ancient Germans and Gauls in the west and Parthians in the east possessed the technique of cutting and sewing

    Duc, cold is not an aunt, quickly learns ....

    The statement regarding the "simple draped piece of linen" among the Mediterranean is somewhat dissonant with the author’s articles on Crete, etc.: both cut and sewing are present there.
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 13 June 2020 08: 55 New
      +4
      Andrew! hi
      It does not discord, for the Minoan and ancient cultures are not identical.
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 13 June 2020 10: 27 New
        +4
        Quote: 3x3zsave
        Andrew! hi
        It does not discord, for the Minoan and ancient cultures are not identical.

        I’ll supplement Anton a little!
        Toga in ancient Rome and Hellas is a status thing - a sign of citizenship.
      2. Olgovich
        Olgovich 13 June 2020 10: 52 New
        +2
        Quote: 3x3zsave
        Andrew!
        It does not discord, for the Minoan and ancient cultures are not identical.

        Anton! hi

        You are inattentive:
        Author: The main type of clothing of the Greeks, Romans and other representatives of the Mediterranean culture


        Minoan is ... not the Mediterranean? One thing.

        So that is discordant.
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 13 June 2020 11: 07 New
          +3
          Then, following a logical chain, the Egyptians, Phoenicians, Iberians can also be attributed here ...
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 13 June 2020 11: 18 New
            +1
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            Then, following a logical chain, the Egyptians, Phoenicians, Iberians can also be attributed here ...

            This is exactly what the respected author wrote.
            .
            Which caused some vague doubts ....
  • vomag
    vomag 13 June 2020 06: 21 New
    +1
    And the Romans "barbarian" - this is just a "stranger."
    No, respected by the Romans, it meant a bearded man or a man with a beard ...
    1. Zeev
      Zeev zeev 13 June 2020 06: 24 New
      +2
      That is, Emperor Sever was a barbarian?
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 13 June 2020 10: 29 New
        +5
        Quote: ZeevZeev
        That is, Emperor Sever was a barbarian?

        And what did you want from the person "North", moreover, a native of Africa from the horseman class. Savage in one word! laughing
      2. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar 13 June 2020 13: 44 New
        +5
        Quote: ZeevZeev
        That is, Emperor Sever was a barbarian?

        For them it meant the same as goy among the Jews, gajin among the Japanese.
        1. Phil77
          Phil77 13 June 2020 15: 39 New
          +2
          * Nemchin * -We are Russian! laughing
      3. Engineer
        Engineer 13 June 2020 15: 10 New
        +1
        That is, Emperor Sever was a barbarian?

        The north was a true Roman, albeit a provincial.
        The Romans were nationalists, but they had cultural nationalism, not blood nationalism.
        The funny thing is that the reference barbarian from the chamber of weights and measures was most likely the beardless Maximin Frakits.
        Even if the word barbarian meant once a bearded man, it lost its original meaning even in the era of Pericles. The Romans borrowed the word from the Greeks already in the new nominative meaning-a person not of our culture.
        The Romans themselves were for a long time barbarians in the eyes of the Greeks
        "The order of these barbarians is not at all barbaric," one Pyrrhus about the Roman camp according to Plutarch
        1. Liam
          Liam 13 June 2020 15: 18 New
          +1
          Quote: Engineer
          Even if the word barbarian meant once a bearded man, it lost its original meaning even in the era of Pericles

          The Greeks never used this word to mean a bearded man.
          βάρβαρος in ancient Greek meant "stuttering"
          1. Engineer
            Engineer 13 June 2020 15: 23 New
            +2
            The Greeks never used this word to mean a bearded man.

            In mass culture left. It was just that I did not want to argue about this at all. Therefore wrote streamlined
            1. Liam
              Liam 13 June 2020 15: 33 New
              +3
              Ancient Greek Beard-γένειον
          2. Operator
            Operator 13 June 2020 20: 57 New
            0
            Greeks before the 2nd century BC did not use the Latin word barba (beard) as a linguistic basis for designating strangers for a simple reason - the Greeks themselves wore beards.

            The Roman historian Strabo at the beginning of our era after the conquest of Greece by Rome, sucked out of the finger "information" that supposedly the Greeks back in the 4th century BC in the person of Hecateus of Miletus, the word βάρβαρος was used to refer to strangers. Apart from the unconfirmed opinion of Strabo, there is no other evidence of the Greeks as the authors of this supposedly reflective word from the word at all.

            In reality, the Greeks themselves borrowed the word barbar from the Romans as a term for strangers, since after Rome conquered Greece in the 2nd century BC. the population of the new Roman province underwent linguistic and cultural assimilation, including in the form of borrowings of Latin words and habits of shaving beards.

            PS The delusional version of the onomatopoeic nature of the word barbar is supported by idiots from Pedovikia, who are firmly convinced that Barbarossa translates as Red Barbarian, and barbershop as a barbaric store laughing
  • Ragnar Lodbrok
    Ragnar Lodbrok 13 June 2020 07: 07 New
    14
    Thank you for an interesting article and no less interesting illustrations with photos, it was interesting to read!
  • Alexander Samoilov
    Alexander Samoilov 13 June 2020 07: 33 New
    -1
    Falsification of history is booming. And gives abundant fruits in uncritical minds laughing Plant tissues decompose in the ground in six months. Woolen for the year. Column of Trajan is made of 20 blocks of Carrara marble. The term of TOTAL destruction of white marble is 1200 years. It was supposed to turn into sand at the beginning of the 14th century. And this if no one had touched her finger. And only barbarians, according to official history, 7 times captured Rome.
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 13 June 2020 07: 51 New
      +7
      And in the swamp how long does the clothing last?
      1. Alexander Samoilov
        Alexander Samoilov 13 June 2020 07: 54 New
        +1
        I do not know for sure. But, the higher the soil moisture, the higher the decomposition rate.
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 13 June 2020 08: 01 New
          +6
          Peat preserves organic matter very well.
          1. Alexander Samoilov
            Alexander Samoilov 13 June 2020 08: 49 New
            +1
            Yes. But only dry.
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 13 June 2020 09: 15 New
              +3
              Have you heard about the “man from Tollund” and other so-called “swamp people”?
              1. Alexander Samoilov
                Alexander Samoilov 13 June 2020 10: 14 New
                0
                Of course. Actually, the Tollund man himself was found at a depth of a little more than two meters. And they determined his age at 2000 years. According to GOST R 54611-2011, the depth of the grave is from 1,5 to 2,2 m. I think my idea is clear? wink
                1. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 13 June 2020 10: 26 New
                  +3
                  Please explain. I suspect that they could handle the burial without the 2011 standards.
                  1. Alexander Samoilov
                    Alexander Samoilov 13 June 2020 10: 28 New
                    -1
                    If he died today, he would lie at exactly the same depth
                    1. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 13 June 2020 10: 38 New
                      +3
                      Could be an argument. But, as far as I know, the rate of peat formation can be about 1 mm per year.
                      1. Alexander Samoilov
                        Alexander Samoilov 13 June 2020 11: 01 New
                        0
                        In this case, all people lying in your cemetery should be 2000 years old.
                      2. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 13 June 2020 11: 11 New
                        +4
                        Our cemeteries in the swamps do not place.
                      3. Alexander Samoilov
                        Alexander Samoilov 13 June 2020 12: 12 New
                        -1
                        There was not always a swamp. You yourself said 1 mm of soil per year. People in the graves under two meters. But okay. Now is not about that. That's how it really was. Found a well-preserved body, called the police. Since no one was lost in the nearby settlements, and the chances to identify, let alone solve the case, regardless of whether it was a murder or an accident, were null and void, they assigned him to the category of archaeological finds and invited the latter. Archaeologists are of little use for an ordinary corpse. Unless of course there are no artifacts with him. Getting them is easy. You can even do it yourself. Dohlyachek plus some rusty knife and fragments of ceramics are already material for scientific work. Think this is just my guess? Then let's remember the story with another person - Piltdown. For almost half a century, he was considered one of the greatest finds. Well, the missing link between the monkey and the sapiens! More than 400 dissertations were written on it. And then it turned out that this was just a crude fake. It turned out that the skull was no more than 600 years old, and the jaw - 500 years old. And they belonged to the most ordinary people.
                      4. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 13 June 2020 12: 41 New
                        +6
                        1 mm peat formation.

                        The hoax of the Piltdown man was initially ambiguously perceived, and only “found” in one place.
                        Yes, and the jaw, most likely an orangutan, was identified.

                        The finds of the “swamp people” are already more than a thousand.
                      5. Alexander Samoilov
                        Alexander Samoilov 13 June 2020 12: 53 New
                        -4
                        Naturally. Not all scientists are corrupt. But alas, the majority. Yes, even a million. There are 7,5 billion people on the planet. If one of them found its end in the swamp, this is no reason to classify their bodies in the prehistoric period. You can see how archaeological finds are made from 7:25. Better all the videos.
                      6. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 13 June 2020 13: 44 New
                        +4
                        How many pathos, strain in this video.
                        Does not convince even once.

                        On birch bark letters more than once, and at this forum we were talking.
                      7. Alexander Samoilov
                        Alexander Samoilov 13 June 2020 13: 49 New
                        -3
                        And what convinces you, the so-called "scientists" like those archaeologists? wassat
                      8. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 13 June 2020 13: 58 New
                        +6
                        Most convincing are those things that are measured.

                        Even Mendeleev said: "Science begins from the time when they begin to measure."
                        And then there may already be logical messages.

                        Two minutes later, I realized who the author of the video reminds me of - the hero of Shukshin’s story “Cut off”.
                      9. Alexander Samoilov
                        Alexander Samoilov 13 June 2020 14: 49 New
                        -1
                        Since you recalled Mendeleev, can you recall that his table was castrated by throwing ether out of it? Here are all measured:
                      10. The comment was deleted.
                      11. Alexander Samoilov
                        Alexander Samoilov 13 June 2020 15: 12 New
                        -2
                        Since you remembered Mendeleev, you may remember that his table was castrated by throwing ether out of it? Well, everyone thought:
    2. Free wind
      Free wind 14 June 2020 04: 58 New
      0
      If he died today, he would be buried the day after tomorrow.
  • Phil77
    Phil77 13 June 2020 08: 05 New
    +8
    But why explain that with * Titanic * some items of passenger clothing were lifted? Although they were in leather suitcases, but nonetheless ... hi
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 13 June 2020 08: 17 New
      10
      Everyone knows that the Titanic drowned J. Cameron. wassat
      1. Phil77
        Phil77 13 June 2020 08: 26 New
        +6
        Exactly! Having entered into a criminal conspiracy with the insidious Iceberg.
        How not to exclaim here:
        -What is not an Iceberg, then ... well, you know who! laughingGood morning Anton!
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 13 June 2020 10: 45 New
          +4
          Quote: Korsar4
          And in the swamp how long does the clothing last?

          Quote: Alexander Samoilov
          I do not know for sure. But, the higher the soil moisture, the higher the decomposition rate.

          Shingar wooden idol - approximate age over 10 years!
          Continue to continue?
          Regards, Vlad!
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 13 June 2020 10: 55 New
            +5
            Another thing is that, as I understand it, the same flax has not been preserved for such a long time.
      2. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar 13 June 2020 13: 45 New
        +3
        Quote: 3x3zsave
        Everyone knows that the Titanic drowned J. Cameron. wassat

        Jews - Pilot, Boatswain and Iceberg
        1. Phil77
          Phil77 13 June 2020 15: 32 New
          +4
          Hi Albert! Especially the iceberg! laughing
          1. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar 13 June 2020 15: 34 New
            +3
            Greetings! hi Icebergs, Weissbergs, Eisenbergs and all sorts of Rabinovichi there! (with)
            1. Phil77
              Phil77 13 June 2020 15: 37 New
              +5
              Okay, the rest! But he, who did he work for? The Fed has not yet been created, massad is similar. Who is the customer?
              1. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar 13 June 2020 17: 35 New
                +2
                Well, how are the protagonists of the protocols of the Zion wise men fellow
        2. Phil77
          Phil77 13 June 2020 15: 58 New
          +4
          Boatswain? My friend, there’s a minimum of questions for him, he poor fellow died with six team members when a certain Lightoiler sent him to find out the situation in the bow compartments * of the Titanic *.
          No, he’s out of business! Iceberg! He, guilty of everything. laughing
        3. Catfish
          Catfish 13 June 2020 16: 24 New
          +4
          Iceberg??? He always believed that his name was Pereverzev. request

          Greetings Albert! drinks
          1. Phil77
            Phil77 13 June 2020 16: 53 New
            +5
            My friend! Turning over to * Blue Arrow * !!!!! Boris Novikov flashed there too! drinks
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 13 June 2020 17: 22 New
              +4
              Self in the "Arrow", in the role of commander of the "spy" submarine. And his famous appeal to his old man: "Janson, you have the eyes of a dreamy chewing cow." laughing

              And Novikov played the role of the technician Dudnik. smile
              1. Phil77
                Phil77 13 June 2020 17: 26 New
                +4
                Oh, amigo !!! If I could insert pictures and stuff?!?!? Alas, me!
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 13 June 2020 17: 28 New
                  +4
                  And so, what are the problems?
                2. Phil77
                  Phil77 13 June 2020 17: 31 New
                  +4
                  I’m writing from the phone. And that’s it! Take as you like.
            2. Phil77
              Phil77 13 June 2020 18: 44 New
              +2
              * Titanic * don’t touch! Holy it !!!! laughing
        4. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 13 June 2020 17: 37 New
          +2
          Greetings! drinks
          Disguised, changed his last name, Schaub released abroad
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 13 June 2020 17: 40 New
            +4
            Of course!!! Everything is as usual. laughing drinks
          2. Catfish
            Catfish 13 June 2020 17: 44 New
            +4
            And you blabber me in PM what to look for, find and lay out.
          3. Phil77
            Phil77 13 June 2020 18: 46 New
            +2
            * Who are you, then, huh?
            Stab, tramp !!! * wassat
  • Alexander Samoilov
    Alexander Samoilov 13 June 2020 08: 49 New
    +1
    Sea water is a very strong brine.
    1. Phil77
      Phil77 13 June 2020 16: 36 New
      +3
      I’ll add to your comment that the organic remains of passengers, etc. * Titanic * were completely decomposed by the 40s. Completely! Including skeletons. Alas.
      1. Alexander Samoilov
        Alexander Samoilov 13 June 2020 16: 46 New
        0
        Not decomposed, but eaten. Primarily plankton.
        1. Phil77
          Phil77 13 June 2020 16: 58 New
          +4
          Plankton? At a depth of over 3 kilometers?
          1. Phil77
            Phil77 13 June 2020 17: 05 New
            +4
            Sasha! / Sorry for the familiarity! / Do you mean holoplankton, al meroplankton?
            1. Alexander Samoilov
              Alexander Samoilov 13 June 2020 18: 21 New
              +1
              Plankton is even in the Mariana Trench. Although with depth its amount is constantly falling. And below 8 km it is very small. Golo, meralo mainly grazes on the shelf.
              1. Phil77
                Phil77 13 June 2020 18: 59 New
                +2
                Got it! Do you mean meroplankton? But., Depth! 3700! It is fraught, no?
              2. Phil77
                Phil77 13 June 2020 19: 05 New
                +2
                Oceanologist, no?
              3. Phil77
                Phil77 13 June 2020 19: 18 New
                +2
                Alexander! Come on, justification !!!
        2. Phil77
          Phil77 13 June 2020 19: 13 New
          +2
          No, my friend, it is laid out!
          1. Alexander Samoilov
            Alexander Samoilov 13 June 2020 20: 28 New
            0
            The Soviet expeditionary ship Vityaz has been researching deep-sea plankton since 1953. Plankton nets descended, for example, to the depth of 9 thousand meters in the Pacific Ocean. And everywhere, catches brought a certain amount of plankton organisms. Plankton biomass distribution (mg / m3) in the Pacific Ocean (according to Vinogradov M.E.)
      2. Catfish
        Catfish 13 June 2020 17: 43 New
        +5
        Including skeletons

        Fish gobbled up, with a "sword belt and boots." request
    2. Catfish
      Catfish 13 June 2020 17: 23 New
      +4
      And you need to drink beer. drinks
      1. Phil77
        Phil77 13 June 2020 19: 43 New
        0
        And why am I so drunk? What have I suffered from the Titanic *?
        Well, I could not stand it, I !!! ¡¡
      2. Phil77
        Phil77 13 June 2020 19: 45 New
        0
        Throw it to me !!!!
      3. Phil77
        Phil77 13 June 2020 19: 54 New
        0
        Drink it yourself! Russians don’t drink it !!!!
        1. Phil77
          Phil77 13 June 2020 19: 56 New
          +1
          Uncle Kostya !!! ¡!!
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 13 June 2020 20: 05 New
            0
            Out ... Seryoga, go to bed, but first do not forget to remove the skates from the boots. smile drinks
            1. Phil77
              Phil77 13 June 2020 20: 12 New
              +1
              Yavol! Skates removed, friend, come on!
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 13 June 2020 20: 14 New
                +1
                Happily, brother. drinks
              2. Phil77
                Phil77 14 June 2020 07: 44 New
                +1
                I apologize for yesterday !!! I repent !!!! Unloading-home. hi hi
              3. Catfish
                Catfish 14 June 2020 07: 47 New
                +1
                Seryoga, do not worry, everything is fine! The main thing is that a competent hangover does not smoothly transfer to the next binge. smile drinks
                Check out the article on mercenaries.
              4. Phil77
                Phil77 14 June 2020 07: 54 New
                +1
                Quote: Sea Cat
                The main thing is that a competent hangover does not smoothly transfer to the next binge.

                Excluded! Mine is arriving today! I was visiting my granddaughter. Yes, they won’t even understand at work. No, * relaxed * ended!
              5. Catfish
                Catfish 14 June 2020 07: 55 New
                +1
                ended * slack *!

                It's a shame ... request
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 13 June 2020 13: 36 New
    +7
    Quote: Alexander Samoilov
    the higher the soil moisture, the higher the decomposition rate

    Nonsense. Nonsense, exposing you as a person who is not burdened even with a minimum of knowledge on this issue. Everything is exactly the opposite.
    The wetter the soil, the better organic matter is preserved in it, and not only organic matter. An ideal place for conservation is a swamp. This is well known not only by archaeologists, but also by modern search engines.
    In a swamp, and just in moist soil at a great depth, deeper than the freezing line, the subject is always at the same temperature, in the same humidity and, most importantly, in an oxygen-free environment. Hence the “swamp people” and the Novgorod birch bark letters.
    1. Alexander Samoilov
      Alexander Samoilov 13 June 2020 14: 34 New
      -1
      The main factor of destruction is not temperature differences and not oxygen in itself. These are microorganisms. And their amount is directly proportional to humidity. If only the water is fresh. There are two types of swamps - young and old or mature. In the latter, water is no different from river or lake. But a lot of sphagnum grows on them, and he is an antiseptic. In young people, where decay processes are still underway, water contains a lot of gases, mainly methane. In addition, due to the lack of horizontal convection, the bottom of the bogs is largely an anaerobic environment. All this somewhat reduces the number and activity of bacteria compared to other reservoirs. However, they always surpass that in any soil. And search engines are found mainly in swamps, because in other places they have gathered everything for a long time. "Microbiologia non a penis canis." wink
      1. Operator
        Operator 13 June 2020 21: 08 New
        +6
        Swamp soil has great acidity, so there are no microorganisms there.

        It’s another matter that for millennia, bog acid acid bleaches organic matter to black, but human skin, hair, bones and internal organs, tissues and leather products are preserved perfectly.
        1. Alexander Samoilov
          Alexander Samoilov 14 June 2020 04: 53 New
          -1
          You are wrong. "The number of microorganisms in swamps reaches hundreds of millions of cells per gram of peat. The most important processes carried out by microorganisms are the decomposition of organic matter, methanogenesis, methane oxidation, nitrogen fixation, as well as the decomposition of phenolic compounds produced by sphagnum mosses." Bodelier PLE, Dedysh SN Microbiology of wetlands. Frontiers in Microbiology, 2013. Moreover, since the end of the 20th century, it is bogs that have been the main search site in the discovery of new species. “With the introduction of molecular methods into practice, the situation has changed. Microbiologists have a tool for identifying microorganisms directly in samples taken from the swamp by DNA extraction and its analysis.” Phylogenetic analysis and in situ identification of Bacteria community composition in an acidic Sphagnum peat bog. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 2006. V. 72. No. 3. “When such a molecular analysis was performed, it turned out that the majority of the nucleotide sequences detected in peat bogs belong to bacteria of completely unknown groups or groups of which very little is known. For example, these are groups of bacteria in which there are no more than a dozen cultivated representatives, and they still represent a riddle in terms of functions and metabolic potential.If some of the microbiologists manage to isolate a microbe representing a similar mystery group, then this attracts the attention of microbiologists around the world. A number of interesting new microorganisms managed to isolate from the northern wetland ecosystems. " Dedysh SN Cultivating uncultured bacteria from Northern wetlands: knowledge gained and remaining gaps. Frontiers in Microbiology, 2011, 2.
          1. Operator
            Operator 14 June 2020 11: 52 New
            +2
            I would advise British scientists and their fans to look for microorganisms also in acid bottles laughing
      2. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 13 June 2020 22: 35 New
        +4
        Quote: Alexander Samoilov
        search engines find mostly in the swamps, because in other places for a long time all gathered.

        Well, invite the "black tracker" to dig in the sand. laughing
        Okay, you have fully demonstrated your ignorance on this issue. Even the Operator, my eternal antagonist, tells you the same thing that I, this should lead you to at least some thoughts. By the way, I’ll put him a plus on my own - a man pleased me.
  • Fishery
    Fishery 13 June 2020 15: 48 New
    0
    then now in the ocean floating fabric fibers made from natural materials of 50-70 years of release, it turned out that it decomposes much longer than expected, there was a recent study
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 13 June 2020 07: 44 New
    +6
    Interesting. It’s one thing to walk “In the midst of pines and roses” along the shores of the Mediterranean Sea, and it’s another to step over the wind.
    1. Phil77
      Phil77 13 June 2020 19: 27 New
      +1
      My friend! What is the matter with me? I drink and it seems to die! why, die? and with whom I die? and here is the question:
      - why die? *
      Question to you, Friend! Huh?
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 13 June 2020 19: 47 New
        +1
        Wow. Yesenin's questions to the Black man.

        For our generation, this may already be acute.
        I am convinced that from every person in life there is a lot of good.
        1. Phil77
          Phil77 13 June 2020 20: 26 New
          +1
          So worth thinking about? A Black Man! Sergey, let's think. WE ARE EXACTLY THEY?
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 13 June 2020 20: 36 New
            0
            No. We are we. And look in the mirror is not necessary. And at sunset it’s quite good.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Operator
    Operator 13 June 2020 09: 25 New
    +1
    The author has mixed in a bunch of horses, people.

    Romans / Greeks / Phoenicians / Egyptians, Celts / Gauls / Britons and Germans / Scandinavians lived in different climates and had different clothes - the harsher the climate, the more layers of clothing, the sandals replaced with closed shoes and the more common pants made of fabric , leather and fur. In Persians, Scythians and Alans, trousers performed a protective role when riding a horse in connection with the absence of saddles and stirrups during the existence of the Roman Empire. Due to the small number of their cavalry, the Romans ignored the trousers.

    PS The Romans spoke Latin, apparently, therefore did not know such a Russian word as “barbarian”: they called the Celts, Germans and Parthians Barbara - bearded (unlike shaved Romans) laughing
  • alebor
    alebor 13 June 2020 09: 44 New
    +3
    With all my great respect for the author, I can’t help myself, so as not to complain about some, in my opinion, inaccuracies.
    First nitpicking:
    since a man mounted a horse and put on his pants before it, clothes began to be divided into male and female!
    However, the epigraph to the article, taken from the biblical book of Deuteronomy, which in a more expanded form looks like this: “A woman should not have men's clothing, and a man should not dress in a woman’s dress, because everyone who does these things is vile before the Lord your God” testifies as among peoples who do not wear pants, women's and men's clothing was clearly separated even in ancient times.
    Second nitpicking:
    German men beards shaved ...
    Perhaps shaved, but apparently not all and not always. At least the name of one of the Germanic tribes of the Langobards (long beards) clearly hints that the latter not only had beards, but that their beards were large.
    1. Operator
      Operator 13 June 2020 10: 33 New
      0
      The author clearly floats in the subject - Germans from the time of the Roman Empire loved to dye their hair and beards red, therefore, it was difficult to calculate the ratio of brunettes and blondes in their midst. Roman historians only talked about the greater presence among the Germans of blondes with bright eyes - compared with the Romans, Greeks, Gauls, Iberians and other Mediterranean peoples.

      The phenotype (appearance) of the Romans, Gauls, and Iberians was determined by the initial phenotype of Erbins (R1b) - the ancestors of 90% of Western Europeans, whose typical representatives are Basques and Irish. The phenotype of the Romans was also influenced by a large proportion of black-haired and dark-skinned hamites (E1) - immigrants from Africa and Greece who migrated to the south of the Apennine Peninsula.

      The mixed phenotype of the Scandinavians and Germans was determined by a large proportion (up to 25%) in their composition of descendants of the Central European Aryans (R1a) - blood relatives of the East European Aryans (ancestors of the Slavs) with a predominantly fair-haired and light-eyed phenotype - from light brown hair and blue eyes to platinum blondes and gray eyes.
    2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 13 June 2020 10: 51 New
      +5
      Some went to battle in principle - not closer! But this does not mean that they did not have pants !!! bully
      As the saying goes, the exception confirms the rule. smile
      Regards, Vlad!
  • saigon
    saigon 13 June 2020 09: 56 New
    +1
    If we talk about culture, then, for example, the culturally impossible phalangites of Macedon stomped barefoot into battle.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 13 June 2020 11: 56 New
      +7
      Quote: saigon
      If we talk about culture, then, for example, the culturally impossible phalangites of Macedon stomped barefoot into battle.

      Yeah! You read Fuclid what he thought of the Macedonians and Thracians! He was a very cultured man - he wore sandals!
      Now it’s clear why the Macedonian phalanx was defeated by the Roman legions! Sandals are Roman everything, the top of civilization!
      Although there are exceptions! Lapotniki Svyatoslav defeated the Khazar Kaganate in yuft boots, and the boots of Alexander Nevsky - the Germans in iron sabatons !!! recourse
      No, I understood the landmark of culture - these are galoshes! Chekhov and Bulgakov wrote about them! Mendeleev went to them !!!
      And if you cross the felt boots with the ears, then “Hitler is coming up!” Tested empirically near Moscow at 41 !!!
      Now seriously!
      Had to carry grandfathers military cloaks and fathers chrome boots! I do not regret it! Just today, in galoshes, I was sorting through a woodpile in the garden! In winter, I remove the snow from the roof always in felt boots! Into the forest in cuirass! Culture is straight - rushing !!! drinks
      1. ee2100
        ee2100 13 June 2020 12: 12 New
        +1
        Bast shoes were invented in the XVI-VII centuries, and boots even later.
        But if, in your opinion, in your felt boots, do you think it is convenient to fight on the ice of the lake?
        1. Phil77
          Phil77 13 June 2020 15: 01 New
          +5
          Quote: ee2100
          Bast shoes were invented in the XVI-VII centuries, and boots even later.

          Sorry, I didn’t make out the timeline you proposed.
          As for boots, the first options * wire rods *, and a whole series of names, they appeared very long ago. And not in Russia!
          Lapti? But after all, shoes of this type have been woven since ancient times. In any case, archaeologists even find bone * kochedyky * / weaving hooks even in the parking lots of an ancient man.
          * Wakaji * - a kind of bast shoes, the Japanese had. The North American Indians had similar shoes. hi
          1. ee2100
            ee2100 13 June 2020 15: 18 New
            +1
            In Dmitrovka I missed one of the letters "x". It is necessary XVI-XVII centuries. I wrote that bast shoes, and not something similar to them appeared in the 16-17th centuries. Boots, not something like that, later. In general, this question was addressed to a cat lover.
            Historians who study clothing, not to be confused with "fashion historians," think so. Although, like everyone who has their own opinion, there is an opinion.
            Historians believe that the main shoes in our latitudes, and even north were the Porsches, although they do not deny the presence of boots.
            Maybe you’ll answer how the squad of Prince Alexander fought in mid-April on the ice of Lake Peipsi in felt boots or something similar.
            1. Phil77
              Phil77 13 June 2020 15: 22 New
              +2
              I'll try. Most likely, some kind of leather protectors were sewn on the sole of the boots.
              And probably they were always used, otherwise? Wear would be very good! No?
              1. ee2100
                ee2100 13 June 2020 15: 36 New
                +1
                Studded: felt boots or rubber lamella type cells. laughing
                Or maybe there was just a battle in another place, well, Alexander wasn’t.
                1. Phil77
                  Phil77 13 June 2020 15: 49 New
                  +2
                  Not an option! Far to rubber!
                  Leather! Only leather! Thick, so that all fall-winter-spring is enough! laughing
                  1. ee2100
                    ee2100 13 June 2020 16: 28 New
                    +1
                    But what about the battle on ice, even on leather soles?
                    1. Phil77
                      Phil77 13 June 2020 17: 09 New
                      +2
                      Friend! Yes, believe me, elementary!
                      Well, what are you, right, as if you didn’t play hockey, but ???????
                      1. ee2100
                        ee2100 13 June 2020 17: 34 New
                        +1
                        Got it! They played hockey there! am
                      2. Phil77
                        Phil77 13 June 2020 17: 37 New
                        +2
                        Come on in more detail, my friend! Played? Where? You? Perhaps crossed, no?
                      3. ee2100
                        ee2100 13 June 2020 17: 43 New
                        +1
                        I practically did not play hockey. Last time 5-6 years ago.
                        Trying to argue arguably over the wire places so-called Battle of the Ice. I asked several questions to Shpakovsky on the topic, he could not answer them .. I will wait when this topic will be on the hook again.
                    2. Phil77
                      Phil77 13 June 2020 17: 43 New
                      +2
                      Played? No!
                    3. ee2100
                      ee2100 13 June 2020 18: 01 New
                      +1
                      I wanted to insert a photo, but the site does not give
                    4. ee2100
                      ee2100 13 June 2020 18: 24 New
                      0
                      https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ElCvBm9ipapOAQUOujpCTG5df_Bhjk5L/view?usp=drivesdk
          2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 13 June 2020 18: 35 New
            +4
            Quote: ee2100
            Studded: felt boots or rubber lamella type cells. laughing
            Or maybe there was just a battle in another place, well, Alexander wasn’t.

            For the “cat lover”!
            The hemmed boots are called burkas! The first archaeological finds of dried shoes on the territory of the Tver Principality date back to the 13th century.
            Well, the last thing, cats on valenki are good for hats!
            R.s. Moreover, “caps from the tomcat” bring luck to their owners! It is proved by Muscovites on their own experience when going to Ryazan !!! laughing
            Well, the last - bast shoes are mentioned in the PVL! And to the events of the 10th century! So, slurp the jail galosh!
            Sincerely, Kitty!
            1. ee2100
              ee2100 13 June 2020 18: 40 New
              0
              Drop the links and I agree
              1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Kote Pan Kokhanka 13 June 2020 19: 23 New
                +2
                Quote: ee2100
                Drop the links and I agree

                Link to the Tale of Bygone Years? laughing
                Likhachev has the best text !!! Read !!!
                1. ee2100
                  ee2100 13 June 2020 21: 14 New
                  +1
                  They themselves wrote that somewhere they found "type of boots" there is no link. The link to the PVL, in Likhachev's retelling, is also about nothing. The latest edition of the annals was precisely in the 16-17th centuries.
                  It is impossible to write with such venopodian pathos about bast shoes and felt boots without first acquainting oneself with the subject.
                  Everyone knows how and from what bast shoes are made, but the term of their "service" of bast shoes in an adult is 6-10 days. This is how many pairs of authorities should I take with me on a hike? Bast shoes are generally not durable, not durable shoes and unstable shoes. The story of "bastard Russia" took shape in the XNUMXth century by the so-called Russian liberals.
                  About boots. In order to write that the whole army of Prince Alexander was in felt boots, it would be nice to get acquainted with the manufacturing technology of these.
                  The technology is simple, you can find it on the Internet. But the price of boots before their industrial production was extremely high. And they began to be manufactured industrially in the XNUMXth century.
                  In our latitudes wears pims, pistons, cats, and boots.
                  I will advise you to read the works of an archaeologist, Doctor of Historical Sciences A.Kurbatova.
                  The shield did not touch and like your galoshes. Have a nice evening.
                  For some reason, everyone forgets the last question about the so-called. The battle of the ice. I understand. One chronicler wrote, and disentangle the descendants.
                2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                  Kote Pan Kokhanka 13 June 2020 22: 19 New
                  +2
                  About the shoes of the Eastern Slavs, it is worth looking at the candidate of historical sciences Chudinova.
                  According to the PVL chronology, according to Shazmatov, an excerpt about the monologue “On Bast Shoes” by Dobrynia and Prince Vladimir belongs to the third edition (Novgorod anonym)! That is, at least by the 11th century.
                  Now we read that you mentioned Kurbatov - "bast shoes made of leather straps"! OPS!
                  Now a little about practice! I myself make linden washcloths! Made from my blanks and bast shoes! Comfortable summer shoes. An analogue of the shales, killed in two weeks !!!
                  On ice on the Battle of Ice !!! Yes, even in April !!! I don’t know about you, for me it’s the norm !!! Two meter snowdrifts in the garden on the eve of the Ice Battle, I laid out last year! Ice from the ponds disappears by the end of April, snow in the forest lies until the 20th of May. Snow in June is the norm! Look at the meteorology of the Middle Urals 1 time five years! This year, Vyacheslav Olegovich also tried to convince me - there was no ice, the knights could not sink - that's why it was shallow, etc. Not convinced !!!
                  Well, the last, I did not write that the entire army of Alexander Nevsky was in felt boots!
                  About Valenok technology, and who told you that in the 11th century it was a full cycle! By the way, if you are a specialist, then the question is, how do 'pima differ from boots? And what is chuni? We built a hut and sheepskin coat in Russia, felt boots !!! There is a difference!
                  For information, a pair of bast shoes is braided in two hours.
                  Yes, the very last! You know the word - "sarcasm"! Erinichnaya in my post, I was looking for parallels between culture and shoes! So, if the army of Alexander Nevsky “shod” the Germans in cats, then essentially nothing changes!
                  Last nail you want! Contemporaries of the American Civil War noticed that many Confederate soldiers took care of their boots and walked barefoot on campaigns! This is the 19th century! Sadly, everything is like the victorious hoplites of the Macedonians, but it did not help!
                  Or Emperor Caligula! Continue to continue !!! laughing
                  Sincerely, thanks for the discussion !!! I forgot to ride on the pistons, okay - the cat is with them !!!
                3. ee2100
                  ee2100 13 June 2020 22: 29 New
                  +1
                  If it’s not too late for you, read the argument that the battle in April 1242 was elsewhere.
                  What the chronicle describes. Prince Alexander comes under the walls of Dorpat and besieges him. Part of the troops sent to plunder the land surrounding the city. Domash, the brother of the posadnik, dies in a clash with knights going to the aid of the besieged fortress. Alexander and the army were scared and fleeing. Run like? Running in a hurry, leaving camp? Or retreat in an organized manner? And one more question. Why run towards Lake Peipsi. From the site of the alleged battle to Dorpat in a straight line about 100 km. More on the way. It would be more logical to run towards Izborsk. The distance is the same. But you will meet the enemy beyond the walls. Are knights fleeing the chase? Say yes. It can be a maximum of 5-7 km, if not caught up. After that, the persecutors return to the fortress, and those who retreat can rest calmly, comprehend what is happening, reform, etc. And if not pursued? It turns out that fear shook Alexander and his army, and they ran for 4-5 days and only on the ice of the lake did they come to their senses. Will the knights chase the retreating army for 4-5 days? No. They completed their task. The fortress is unlocked, the enemy retreated. If the enemy wants to continue to fight, then you are welcome — we are in the fortress. Suppose the knights pursue the army of Alexander. How do they know where the fear will let Alexander go and he will stop. Maybe he will run to Novgorod. And this is a different preparation and logistics. As we know, the case took place on April 5 (12). Hydrologists who studied this issue, with a probability of 50%, say that there could be ice suitable for being on it. Let's say suitable. Let's say the battle took place on SPRING ice. Spring ice is a pure ice rink. And yet, I would like to know in which shoes one and the other side fought. If you answer all these questions following elementary logic, common sense and personal experience, you get something not real. To put it mildly. The battle was in the area of ​​modern Tartu. Why the chronicler moved him to the area of ​​Lake Peipsi (Warm) is a question for him. As they say, "He is an artist, he sees so."
                4. ee2100
                  ee2100 13 June 2020 22: 46 New
                  0
                  I am extremely critical of the annals, and what Dobrynya and Prince Vladimir talked about is a question for Shakhmatov.
                  About Kurbatov. He found leather straps and thought it was an analogue of bast shoes, or maybe it's sandals? Or maybe something else altogether.
                  Laptey did not find anyone anywhere in the excavations before 17. And the version that bast shoes is a product of the 16-17th century is not only with Kurbatov.
                  The manufacturing technology of felt boots is one and it cannot be "not a full cycle"
                  You will read about chuni and pima.
                  You wrote that "boots Nevsky" meaning combatants. That's all.
                  Until the XNUMXth century, leather shoes were very expensive and really cherished, no one argues.
                  In the Warm Lake, where the battle is supposed to have taken place, it is very easy to drown on a horse. He himself was fishing there, I know.
                  There is very little information about ancient shoes, so it became interesting to me and read something.
        2. Catfish
          Catfish 13 June 2020 19: 38 New
          +3
          ... cats on felt boots are good for hats!

          But for such words, my friend, you can put a party card on the table. I, a Muscovite living near Ryazan, if I meet a reptile in a "cat's hat", I will calculate it immediately and without any legal proceedings. am
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 13 June 2020 20: 00 New
            +1
            I mean the same! Sinners of Moscow 600 years ago went to Ryazan with the sentence “we will throw them with their caps”. Well, they threw them Ryazan! Since then it has not been accepted to put cats on hats and on boots! Although .... if mittens?
            laughing
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 13 June 2020 20: 09 New
              +1
              Although .... if mittens?

              Again for your own! Well, what to do with you, Sinister Ural !? laughing
            2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka 13 June 2020 21: 00 New
              +1
              I sit high, I look far, I’ll go beat, I’ll do my legs !!!! lol
              With sincere respect, if that is what I am calling for the lack of tact! repeat
      2. Phil77
        Phil77 13 June 2020 20: 05 New
        +2
        Vlad! Stop it, huh?! You are a friend, you yourself know who! I deeply respect you !!!!
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 13 June 2020 20: 53 New
          +2
          Break stereotypes !!! laughing
          Guys no offense! I didn’t think that you would attack me for a couple !!! Assumed that one by one! laughing And there, I hoped I could get out !!! Do not fail!
          So that! Get your hands off cats, both Moscow and Ryazan!
          "Rabbit is not only valuable fur, but ...." !!! Although ... oh, I feel Anton and VikNik will beat me today, two stories:
          The story is real from my family. My father turned his head to my mother with various projections! One of which is the coat of their dog skin! After the wedding, my mother, set a categorical condition in the implementation of plans! There is nothing to do, the father took a gun from a neighbor and went to get a "fur coat". According to him (it happened in the village of Atig), he saw a flock of stray dogs at a local garbage dump, took aim, closed his eyes and shot! The dogs fled. The next day, the chairman of the village council came to work for dinner and indignantly says that his lap-dog caught a pellet in his paw! Fortunately, my wife noticed in the morning! Father then swore not to shoot animals. So the project with a "fur coat" was never realized!
          The second story is less dramatic. My wife’s grandfather kept sheep, so he decided to experiment with cat hair. I wanted to make cat-made mittens !!! In the evening my wife and I left on a woodpile and sat a furry - striped one! In the morning we arrive at the fence with only eyes, a mustache and a tail! By the way, the experiment failed. The cat wool thread did not go. The wife and daughter brought the cat into the divine form for another hour, so as not to scare the neighbors! The cat, by the way, did not melt the next day, noted his grandfather's slippers! And so for exactly a week this action was repeated with a bang! A week later, his grandfather baptized Vaska in Lysika and they again healed soul-to-soul!
          My regards!
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 13 June 2020 21: 17 New
            +3
            When our cat nailed to us from the garbage, his thick wool completely fell into natural felt. The poor thing was itchy, but he really could not scratch himself. In short, a familiar veterinarian came to us, injected a cat with sleeping pills, put it on a workbench in the garden and, using scissors and a machine, removed this natural carapace from him. Only in addition to his whiskers, eyes and tail did he also have high fur boots. When the tramp recovered, he was combed and gnawed from all sides, and he sang songs with delight. It’s a pity that we didn’t think of taking a picture of him in this form. smile
            Vlad, no complaints. drinks
          2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 13 June 2020 21: 29 New
            +2
            My wife once cut her under anesthesia! I walked the bun, became a "worm." Then the daughter read out that anesthesia has a bad effect on health. So now we are suffering with combing! Three hands, Ohr for the whole apartment !!! after offense! But all the same, we need long wool up to 10-12 centimeters! When you wash you have nothing to look at !!!
            Sincerely, Vlad!
          3. Catfish
            Catfish 13 June 2020 21: 35 New
            +3
            ... now we are suffering with combing! Three hands, Ohr for the whole apartment !!! after offense!

            Everything is exactly the same with us. smile
  • Hantengri
    Hantengri 13 June 2020 21: 28 New
    +3
    Quote: ee2100
    Maybe you’ll answer how the squad of Prince Alexander fought in mid-April on the ice of Lake Peipsi in felt boots or something similar.

    Elementary, Alexander! We pull on boots, an armchair, chain mail, bracers, greaves, a helmet with a half mask, sit on a horse (we’re a squad, not a staff!), We put boots on a stirrup ... And voila! laughing And the horse has horseshoes ... She, in the horseshoes, as a first approximation, do not care - ice, there, dirt, or asphalt.
    In addition, the Elder Livonian Rhymed Chronicle suggests that those killed, on both sides, "fell on the grass." So: on the ice, everything happened, or not - a moot point.
    1. ee2100
      ee2100 13 June 2020 21: 42 New
      +2
      And I'm talking about it. If one reads the plot of the annals with prejudice, then many questions arise for which there are no answers in the right mind. I transferred them to Shpakovsky, and that’s not all. If I didn’t erase it later, I’ll repeat them to you
    2. ee2100
      ee2100 13 June 2020 21: 48 New
      +2
      Found. Not all questions were voiced.
      What the chronicle describes. Prince Alexander comes under the walls of Dorpat and besieges him. Part of the troops sent to plunder the land surrounding the city. Domash, the brother of the posadnik, dies in a clash with knights going to the aid of the besieged fortress. Alexander and the army were scared and fleeing. Run like? Running in a hurry, leaving camp? Or retreat in an organized manner? And one more question. Why run towards Lake Peipsi. From the site of the alleged battle to Dorpat in a straight line about 100 km. More on the way. It would be more logical to run towards Izborsk. The distance is the same. But you will meet the enemy beyond the walls. Are knights fleeing the chase? Say yes. It can be a maximum of 5-7 km, if not caught up. After that, the persecutors return to the fortress, and those who retreat can rest calmly, comprehend what is happening, reform, etc. And if not pursued? It turns out that fear shook Alexander and his army, and they ran for 4-5 days and only on the ice of the lake did they come to their senses. Will the knights chase the retreating army for 4-5 days? No. They completed their task. The fortress is unlocked, the enemy retreated. If the enemy wants to continue to fight, then you are welcome — we are in the fortress. Suppose the knights pursue the army of Alexander. How do they know where the fear will let Alexander go and he will stop. Maybe he will run to Novgorod. And this is a different preparation and logistics. As we know, the case took place on April 5 (12). Hydrologists who studied this issue, with a probability of 50%, say that there could be ice suitable for being on it. Let's say suitable. Let's say the battle took place on SPRING ice. Spring ice is a pure ice rink. And yet, I would like to know in which shoes one and the other side fought. If you answer all these questions following elementary logic, common sense and personal experience, you get something not real. To put it mildly. The battle was in the area of ​​modern Tartu. Why the chronicler moved him to the area of ​​Lake Peipsi (Warm) is a question for him. As they say, "He is an artist, he sees so."
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 13 June 2020 22: 38 New
        +2
        I corrected your karma!
        Spring ice, nostril, loose and not slippery! By your logic, you need to think! Although I am more inclined to believe that the chronicler is not an eyewitness, he heard that he heard and wrote down !!!
        1. ee2100
          ee2100 13 June 2020 22: 58 New
          +2
          Karma does not need to be corrected. She is in the right place.
          And spring ice is different. Unsteady when it is already "soon-soon" On very little ice in their right mind and sober, few will stick up, and even more so on horses.
          A chronicler of 1000% is not an eyewitness, but he is not. I don’t remember where I read that the first 30 "notebooks" of the Novgorod annals were written by one person. And I think that they are written very talented.
          The chronicler knew perfectly well what ice is in April. But why did he describe the battle in the Dorpat area like that? This is a very interesting question. There is little real in this story. My guess was that he wanted the ancestors, incl. and we understood his attitude towards Prince Alexander.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • ee2100
    ee2100 13 June 2020 10: 05 New
    +1
    Good afternoon.
    Since 'to be continued', I hope it will be about the clothes of our ancestors.
    In the article, the theme of shoes, an easy mention of scandals, is passed on to oblivion. And since the author tried to talk about the clothes of almost the entire "civilized" Europe, the theme of shoes is very important.
  • Free wind
    Free wind 13 June 2020 10: 10 New
    +3
    Rabbits are very common in southern Europe. Plus they periodically die in huge quantities. it is unlikely that people would pass by free meat and skins. Maybe they learned to sew them. Pants, maybe they piled up a bear, but the back was separately skinned, maybe someone got into these pants as a bear. Yes, and the Chukchi. when Europeans met them, they did not run with bare priests for ostriches, in the ice of Antarctica, they ran in trousers. For underwear, Fish Skin was used. I’m not at all joking. The skin, I know about carp, was made, processed and used for delicate products. Used the skin of sharks, Used the skin of dolphins. All resources were used, all that could be obtained. To date, the most expensive skin, skin with a member of the Blue Whale.
  • Andobor
    Andobor 13 June 2020 11: 10 New
    +1
    Yes, pants is the cornerstone of historyThe Romans captured everything that could be captured without pants, and when it began to get colder, during the time of the Great Migration of Peoples, they were forbidden to wear their pants, but the pants still came to Rome - on barbarians.
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 13 June 2020 14: 08 New
    +7
    Oh, Vyacheslav Olegovich, finally material without politics! good I read it with interest and pleasure, many thanks. hi
    I always believed that the pants were invented in connection with the start of the operation of the riding horse, that is, most likely their inventors were still residents of the steppes, and not forests.
    Himself, at one time, about thirty years ago, even earlier, I tried to wear a kind of kilt instead of pants for a couple of days, so, for the sake of experiment, in the summer. I will say this - funny feelings.
    I did the following. A long piece of fabric stretched across one shoulder between the legs to the other, again between the legs and wrapped around the waist. It turned out something like a skirt to the knees and everything is closed from below. The design, in principle, is convenient, comfortable, but the problem of needing to go down and the ankles are not protected from grass there, different nettles, small branches, etc. If you wear high boots or stockings - generally no problem. He concluded that one can live like that, nothing fatal, but pants are still more comfortable. smile
    1. Phil77
      Phil77 13 June 2020 15: 04 New
      +3
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      pants are still more comfortable.

      And why not?
      Pants are the subject of evolutionary development! laughing
      But jeans are the subject of pants development !!!! laughing
      1. Phil77
        Phil77 13 June 2020 16: 09 New
        +2
        Accepted. I quote:
        - * People in jeans are building this world, people in suits are destroying it. *
        This is anonymous with a * - * sign. laughing
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 13 June 2020 16: 28 New
          +2
          This is anonymous with a * - * sign.

          You are too picky. In different regions of the Union, these pants were called differently. "Jimsy", "Chukhasy" - for example. We need to understand the terminology. laughing
          1. Phil77
            Phil77 13 June 2020 17: 49 New
            +4
            Chukhas, Chukhas! Ha! Jeans! Not pants. Not trousers. A JEANS! ¡!!
          2. Phil77
            Phil77 13 June 2020 17: 53 New
            +4
            People who can build / create something) / those in jeans!
            Are they trying to do something in which they? Ah, friend? Am I wrong ???
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 13 June 2020 18: 33 New
              +4
              The question is what to do, to whom, or for what? And then after all the people are different, and wears different pants.
      2. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 13 June 2020 16: 36 New
        +4
        "And there is a big Rush in the east,
        There life is wonderful and good,
        They build something there, forge something there,
        And they give jeans for free on the collective farm! "
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 13 June 2020 17: 57 New
          +5
          "I will abandon Montana, buy a ship,
          I will go to Russia to the Far East.
          Her hers! Euribadi! ... " fellow
          1. Phil77
            Phil77 13 June 2020 18: 06 New
            +5
            Friend Patience! I’m going to the store! I am sinful !!! Oya! Sinful!
          2. Phil77
            Phil77 13 June 2020 18: 15 New
            +3
            Oh Bella Chao, Bella Chao, Chao, Chao!
            Young people will understand, no?
            1. Phil77
              Phil77 13 June 2020 18: 17 New
              +1
              The Ciao thing is ours all once!
            2. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 13 June 2020 18: 52 New
              +2
              "Partisan, Moldavian,
              We are gathering a squad "(C)
              By anology.
              And anyway, Uncle Kostya, who did you call "youth" ???
  • bubalik
    bubalik 13 June 2020 16: 41 New
    +6
    Prehistoric pants were unearthed by archaeologists Ulrike Beck and Mayke Wagner of the German Archaeological Institute in Berlin, opening a grave in western China in the Tarim Basin (Yanghai graveyard in China's Tarim Basin). Pants were worn on a dead nomad.

    Scientists have identified the burial age at 3300 years.
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 13 June 2020 16: 51 New
      +6
      Quote: bubalik
      Scientists have identified the burial age at 3300 years.

      Nothing is very bad.
      1. Phil77
        Phil77 13 June 2020 17: 16 New
        +4
        good Volodya, great! It's clear about the ports! And about the * cowards * family *, what do you have to say ????? tongue tongue
        1. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 13 June 2020 17: 20 New
          +6
          Quote: Phil77
          And about cowards * family *, what do you have to say ?????

          What to talk about them? Trusels like a coward. Universal. wink
    2. Phil77
      Phil77 13 June 2020 17: 18 New
      +4
      Seryog! God forbid! That's what to wear !!!!!
      1. bubalik
        bubalik 13 June 2020 17: 26 New
        +5
        ,,, but better than modern skinny jeans negative
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 13 June 2020 18: 03 New
          +4
          skinny jeans

          Well, this is for those who are not familiar with such a thing as a toilet. smile

          Hello, Sergey! drinks
    3. Catfish
      Catfish 13 June 2020 17: 58 New
      +5
      So I say - decent people already wore the Chukhas! good
      1. Phil77
        Phil77 13 June 2020 18: 20 New
        +3
        Ggrryyyy !!!!!! Only jeans liiii !!! !!!
        1. Lexus
          Lexus 13 June 2020 20: 22 New
          +4
          Glad to welcome everyone! hi
          It’s not the pants that color the person ... but he does them (fakes don’t count, Freud’s compliment). lol
          I am sure that if we properly examine the archaeological finds from the battlefield, it can be guaranteed to establish which side was defeated, discarding all insinuations and conjectures. lol
    4. Operator
      Operator 13 June 2020 21: 29 New
      0
      Of the twelve Tarim mummies dating from the 18th-13th centuries BC and undergoing genetic examination, eleven belong to carriers of the Black Sea subclade of haplogroup R1a, one is untyped.

      The Black Sea arias, which came east to the territory of today's Northern China, used trousers to adapt to the Central Asian continental climate, and not for riding, as they used chariots.
  • barin
    barin 14 June 2020 07: 11 New
    -5
    Yeah interesting. And most importantly - in detail.
  • Gato
    Gato 14 June 2020 13: 01 New
    0
    Moreover, women participated in battles, being in the ranks with men. Their task was primarily to scare the enemy with loud screams.

    laughing laughing lol
    1. Gato
      Gato 14 June 2020 13: 09 New
      0
      Moreover, women participated in battles, being in the ranks with men. Their task was primarily to scare the enemy with loud screams.

      The fighting cats performed the same function:
  • Nikolai Petrov
    Nikolai Petrov 14 June 2020 14: 36 New
    0
    Quote: fuxila
    In Russia, before coming of age they wore shirts (until the tip of the genital organ began to stick out from under the hem). After the onset of such an important event, the Russian picked up a club and went for pants to Germany.

    The Russians didn’t need a club, they crushed German skulls with that very tip sticking out from under the hem, and only then they took off their pants from the Aryan blind men. laughing

    The joke, although old, but a little bit about the club. 4 musketeers and our 3 heroes are sitting in a tavern. Ilya Muromets quarreled with D Artagnan. D Artagnan: Aramis, give my sword, bring a piece of chalk, draw a cross on Ilya’s heart. I'll stab him with my sword there. Ilya Muromets: Well, Alyosha sprinkle this clown with flour and give me my club.
  • Aleks2000
    Aleks2000 14 June 2020 19: 36 New
    0
    Good illustrations. Short. Clear
  • Alexfly
    Alexfly 16 June 2020 15: 52 New
    0
    The word Trousers is mutually derived from the Dutch at the time of Peter the Great, and is not Russian.