Military Review

Alcazar: the fortress fights and does not surrender

303

Alcazar today


“Dad, they say that if you don’t surrender the Alcazar, they will shoot me.”
“What to do, son.” Depend on the will of God. I can’t surrender the Alcazar and betray everyone who has trusted me here. Die worthy of a Christian and a Spaniard.
- Good, dad. Goodbye. Hug you. I will say before death: Long live Spain. Glory to Christ the King!
A telephone conversation between the commandant of the Alcazar fortress, Colonel Moscardo, and his underage son, Louis


Behind the pages of the civil wars. We all know about the heroic resistance of the defenders of the Brest Fortress and are rightfully proud of their courage. However, examples of courageous fulfillment of one's military and civil duty occurred in other countries, in particular, in Spain during the years of the Civil War of 1936-1939. This incident took place during the defense of the Alcazar fortress in Toledo. And today we will tell you about him.


A bird's eye view of the Alcazar immediately after the siege

Let's start with the simplest. What is alcazar? The fact is that this is not a proper name, but the common name of fortresses or fortified palaces in Spain and Portugal, built there during the reign of Arabs (usually in cities) somewhere between the VIII and XIV centuries. So there are Alcazars in many cities in Spain.


Model of the ruins of Alcazar in the military museum opened there

Recall also that the Franco insurgency in Spain began on July 18, 1936, seemingly at the signal of a radio station in Ceuta: “The sky is cloudless over all of Spain!” However, many, including the Spaniards themselves, believe that there was no, and even more precisely this signal, and that for the sake of beauty and drama Ilya Ehrenburg came up with it. But the following is reliably known: on July 18 at 15:15 the republican government in Madrid again broadcast an official message, which began with the words: "The government again confirms that there is complete peace on the peninsula." At the same time, the rebellion was already on. It only began not on the 18th, but on the 16th in the territory of Spanish Morocco.


Another model of the ruins of Alcazar in one of the casemates of the museum opened in it. The destroyed parts of the building are made of transparent plastic

That is, there was no peace anymore! But in Toledo, the anti-republican uprising began precisely on July 18, and the military commandant of the city, Colonel Jose Moscardo, took command over it. However, the rebels could not achieve much success either in the whole country or in the city of Toledo, which they especially wanted to capture, since it housed a large cartridge plant. Already on July 19, the government of Jose Hiral began to distribute weapons supporters of the Popular Front, as a result of which the Republican police immediately gained an advantage over the nationalist rebels. So they had no choice but to retreat to the same Alcazar in Toledo and barricade in it. In the old days, it was the residence of the Spanish monarchs, in the XVIII century a military academy was located there. In 1866, a fire broke out in Alcazar (now it was already called that), after which the building was rebuilt using steel and concrete structures. The great advantage was the presence of vaulted stone cellars that could withstand the impact of air bombs, as well as the location of the palace fortress on a hill with pretty steep slopes, which were very difficult to climb in the summer heat.

Alcazar: the fortress fights and does not surrender
The sequence of destruction by the Republicans of Alcazar. Destruction is shown in red.

That's just the strength of Colonel Moscardo had very little: a total of 1300 combat-ready men, of whom 800 were Guards of Civil, 100 officers, 200 activists of right-wing parties who were ready to fight with weapons in their hands, and 190 cadets of the local military school. In addition to them, in Alcazar there were also members of their families - women and children in the amount of 600 people. There were also hostages, in particular, the civil governor of Toledo with his family and about a hundred left-wing activists captured by the rebels.


The Republicans undermine one of the towers of Alcazar

However, the government of Hyral, although it began well, continued to act so ineptly that in just a few days it lost all its power. Well, how could you wage a war without a military ministry or a general staff? True, he had a Minister of War, but had no connection with the fronts, nor with the military industry. As a result, by August 10, the rebels repelled all attempts by the Republicans to attack the main strongholds of the rebellion. There were few rebels, but they were trained and disciplined.


Photo by M. Koltsov. Republican soldiers shell Alcazar

However, the leadership of the republican police, in spite of everything, stubbornly sought to seize at the same time all the points held by the rebels, including the Toledo alcazar. As a result, they, having more power, sprayed them all and did not receive a decisive advantage anywhere. So in Toledo, Alcazar has been surrounded by barricades since July, Republicans fired at it, bombed it from the air, but to no avail. For example, more than half of the shells, due to long storage, became unusable and did not explode, and the police did not succeed in storming it, since many "police officers" were simply too lazy to climb the steep hill where Alkasar was located. Attempts to persuade Moscardo to surrender through negotiations also failed, and by mid-September, rebel aircraft began to break through to Alcazar and drop leaflets, promising that help was coming. In addition, the soldiers of the Civil Guard knew too well how in case of victory with them and their loved ones the winners would do, therefore they were ready to fight to the death.


Photo by M. Koltsov. Siege of Alcazar. Cameraman Roman Carmen removes Republican fighters

But perhaps the most tragic and dramatic events in stories the siege of Alcazar occurred on July 23. It was on that day that the head of the Toledo police, Candido Cabello, called Colonel Moscardo and demanded the surrender of Alcazar within ten minutes, promising in case of his refusal to shoot the only surviving son of Moscardo - Luis. He was handed the phone, and the father and son were able to talk and say goodbye, after which Candido Cabello heard the following: “Your term does not mean anything. The Alcazar will never give up! ” Then the colonel hung up, and his son was immediately shot, which also meant that the Alcazars could now shoot the hostages in their hands ...


In the photo, fighters of the republican militia who pulled out the remains of monks from the tombs of the Toledo churches desecrated by them

True, then many Republicans claimed that the whole episode was nothing more than an invention of Franco propaganda, but they did not deny the fact of the execution of the son of Moscardo, and in addition, the fact of the connection of the fortress with Cabello headquarters was also confirmed by our journalist Mikhail Koltsov in his Spanish book a diary".


Telephone conversation July 23. Patriotic postcard of the francists

For 70 days the defenders of Alcazar defended themselves, overcoming all the difficulties and deprivations of the siege. When food became scarce, they made a sortie to a nearby granary and managed to get as many as two thousand bags of grain there. The problem with meat was solved due to the fact that they put under the knife 177 horses that were in the fortress, which they ate, but still left one pedigree stallion. There was not enough salt and together they used ... plaster from the walls. How to bury the dead if there is no priest? However, here the besieged also found a way out: Colonel Moscardo himself began to perform funeral rites together, declaring that if this could be done to the captain of the ship, then in such difficult circumstances even more so. By the way, the losses among the defenders were relatively small - only 124 people for the entire 70-day defense, which indicates the thickness of the walls of Alcazar, and, of course, the courage and skill of his defenders. Military parades were even held in Alcazar, and on the day of the Assumption (August 15), a fiesta was held, in which, in spite of the Republicans, flamenco danced to loud music.


Communist Party Toledo demonstration

Well, for many Republicans, the Alcazar has become a kind of place ... leisure. Journalists were brought here to show them how the war was going on, and the prominent Republicans themselves did not deny themselves the pleasure of shooting at the rebels who had settled in it right in front of the cameras.


Defenders of the Alcazar


Photo by M. Koltsov. Frontline Airfield Protection

There were no military specialists among the Republicans, so the most fantastic projects for the capture of the fortress were put forward, which every time they ended in failure. The besiegers, for example, tried to undermine and blow up the walls of Alcazar with dynamite. But due to the rocky ground on which it was erected, and the demolition inexperience, this could not be done, although a number of explosions caused him quite severe damage. However, the strong casemates of the fortress also protected its defenders from explosions, which is why the losses among them were so small. Then the anarchists came up with a proposal ... to pour gasoline on the fire walls of the fortress and set fire to them. However, this did not help them, but many of the participants in this operation received numerous burns.

Meanwhile, the rebels captured one Spanish city after another. Every day they broadcast on the radio: “The Alcazar is holding on!” Colonel Moscardo does not give up! " But the besieged also listened to the radio and realized that the Republicans were losing one after another and that help was close. Parts of Franco attacked Madrid at that time, but in the 20s he turned on Toledo. Foreign officers at his headquarters insisted, but Franco did not listen to them, believing that the moral duty in this case was higher than military expediency.


The Reds on the barricades in Socodover Square (Toledo) during the shelling of the Alcazar

And on September 27, nationalists finally reached the outskirts of Toledo and fired artillery fire around the city. They also shot at the station and Madrid Highway. In response, the republican police fighters killed their commanders, who tried to encourage them to take up defense, got on the buses and hurriedly left the city. Nationalists did not take prisoners. Rather, there was no one to take prisoner, since the Moroccans simply cut the wounded Republicans lying in the city hospital. Only one unit, commanded by Emil Kleber and Enrique Lister, left the city with a fight and entrenched in the hills east of it.


Alcazar Defenders on Liberation Day


Coming out to meet General Varela, Colonel Moscardo reported: "Everything is calm in Alcazar, my general." Patriotic postcard of the francists

This ended up being immediately promoted to general and sent on vacation. Upon his return from him, Moscardo was appointed commander of the Soria division. Together with her, he participated in the battle of Guadalajara. Then, already in 1938, he, as commander of the Aragonese army corps, fought in Catalonia.

After the Civil War, Jose Moscardo led the military cabinet of Franco (1939), commanded the phalangist militia (1941), was captain-general (commander of the troops) of the II and IV military districts (Catalonia and Andalusia). In 1939 he was already a division general, and then a lieutenant general. He was president of the Olympic Committee of Spain and a member of parliament. The result of his career was the honorary post of chancellor of the imperial order “Yarmo and Arrows”, established by Franco and named after the ancient symbols of Castile and Aragon.


In the liberated Alcazar. On the right is Colonel Moscardo, on the left is General Franco. To the left you can see the white sleeve of the uniform shirt of General Varela

In 1948, Franco, in recognition of his services to the country, awarded Moscardo the title of Count Alcazar de Toledo, which automatically made him a Spanish grand. Well, in 1972 this title was already received by his grandson Jose Luis Moscardo y Morales-Vara del Re.


1961 Caudillo Francisco Franco unveils a monument to the fallen defenders of Alcazar

The hero of Alcazar died in 1956, and he was buried along with 124 dead soldiers from the siege time directly in Alcazar. Already posthumously he was awarded the rank of Field Marshal, or in Spanish, captain-general.
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  1. Ragnar Lodbrok
    Ragnar Lodbrok 12 June 2020 05: 21 New
    13
    Thank you, it was interesting to read, I didn’t know the episode about the last conversation between Moscardo and his son .. Thanks again to the author.
    1. iouris
      iouris 13 June 2020 00: 24 New
      0
      Quote: Ragnar Lothbrok
      Thanks again to the author.

      Changed shoes. Liberalism defeats evil.
    2. esaul
      esaul 13 June 2020 09: 57 New
      -3
      I join with gratitude for the interesting material.
      But such comments:
      Quote: iouris
      Quote: Ragnar Lothbrok
      Thanks again to the author.

      Changed shoes. Liberalism defeats evil.

      - "Colonel" broke his oath, which means he is a scoundrel and a traitor who took part in a tragic civil war.

      And we explain the heroism of him and the rebels, they knew that they would cut out (and there was for that) -


      firstly, from ignorance, secondly, from one-sided knowledge of historical events, thirdly, from unwillingness to know something new and fear of destroying one's own ideological patterns.
      According to Soviet ideology, the Republicans were completely blameless, with handles clean from blood - dandelions are direct. A photo with the skeletons of the monks, apparently, should once again confirm this.
      For informative material to the author - only thanks!
      1. esaul
        esaul 13 June 2020 10: 12 New
        +1
        --- Well, for many Republicans, the Alcazar has become a kind of place ... leisure. Journalists were brought here to show them how the war was going on, and the prominent Republicans themselves did not deny themselves the pleasure of shooting at the rebels who had settled in it right in front of the cameras .----------

        This suggests an analogy with Svidomo O. Treby and their "friends and guests" who come to Donbass to shoot at the defenders of the LDNR
        1. Narak-zempo
          Narak-zempo 13 June 2020 18: 16 New
          +2
          Quote: esaul
          and their "friends and guests" who come to Donbass to shoot

      2. iouris
        iouris 13 June 2020 12: 43 New
        -2
        Quote: esaul
        For informative material to the author - only thanks!

        I congratulate you, "know"! And how are you going to use this knowledge? Will you fight mercilessly? For what?
  2. Olgovich
    Olgovich 12 June 2020 05: 33 New
    0
    the anti-republican uprising began precisely on July 18, and the military commandant of the city took command over it Col. Jose Moscardo.


    "Colonel" broke his oath, which means he is a scoundrel and a traitor who took part in a tragic civil war.

    And we explain the heroism of him and the rebels, they knew that they would cut it out (and there was a reason for that)

    Photo M. Koltsova


    Moses Photos Friedland
    1. sergo1914
      sergo1914 12 June 2020 06: 47 New
      +1
      Quote: Olgovich
      Photo by M. Koltsov


      Photo of Moses Fridland


      This is the corporate identity of the author of the article.
      1. kalibr
        12 June 2020 08: 12 New
        +6
        Quote: sergo1914
        This is the corporate identity of the author of the article.

        Now that sounds like a compliment, doesn't it? An example of the accuracy and reliability of information. After all, it is not at all necessary to indicate all the original surnames. There are enough official ones. If not a biographical article, right? And it's not for nothing that I write all the time: do not rush to "denounce" other people's materials. Maybe you just don't know something ...
        1. sergo1914
          sergo1914 12 June 2020 09: 28 New
          +2
          Quote: kalibr
          Quote: sergo1914
          This is the corporate identity of the author of the article.

          Now that sounds like a compliment, doesn't it? An example of the accuracy and reliability of information. After all, it is not at all necessary to indicate all the original surnames. There are enough official ones. If not a biographical article, right? And it's not for nothing that I write all the time: do not rush to "denounce" other people's materials. Maybe you just don't know something ...


          Gracefully
    2. kalibr
      12 June 2020 07: 26 New
      +7
      Quote: Olgovich
      "Colonel" broke his oath, which means he is a scoundrel and a traitor who took part in a tragic civil war.

      Dear Andrey! Thank you, first of all, for correcting the photo. I used the Internet and, apparently, was unsuccessful, if your information is correct. As for what you wrote about the violation of the oath, then ... not everything is so simple. It was violated by the officers of Charles the First, Napoleon, some of his marshals, Japanese samurai, including Ieyasu Tokugawa - who eventually became a god, many thousands of officers of the Russian Imperial Army. And sincerely (many) strived for the happiness of their people. Saddam Hussein's generals ... Klaus von Stauffenberg also violated it ... It all depends on how the "violation" ended. If you lose, then yes, you are a scoundrel and a traitor, and if you win, then you are a patriotic hero who saved your homeland. For Spain, as we see it today, the best outcome was the victory of Moscardo and others like him ...
      1. Liam
        Liam 12 June 2020 07: 42 New
        20
        Quote: kalibr
        Used the Internet and, apparently, unsuccessfully, if your information is more accurate.

        Koltsov and Frindland are different surnames of the same person. It’s just that our Sitesian imperial, like all imperials, that autocratic that of the Soviet sense, suffer from anti-Semitism and emphasize the Jewish origin of persons
        1. kalibr
          12 June 2020 07: 47 New
          +6
          Thank! I didn’t know ... It somehow never crossed my mind.
          1. Liam
            Liam 12 June 2020 08: 00 New
            +5
            Noblesse oblige hi
            1. kalibr
              12 June 2020 08: 09 New
              +4
              A good motto for the family coat of arms!
            2. BAI
              BAI 12 June 2020 11: 24 New
              -1
              Yes, as oblige.
        2. Olgovich
          Olgovich 12 June 2020 10: 03 New
          -5
          Quote: Liam
          Koltsov and Frindlyand are different surnames of the same person ..
          It’s just that our site-based imperial, like all imperials, that the autocratic and the Soviet-style, suffer from anti-Semitism

          1. mention German surnames (and any other) is already ... anti-Semitism? ("friedland" - "peaceful land" in German) belay lol

          It taught you in Italy, where do you guest workers?

          And yes, bring Examples of my anti-Semitism, liar!
          You can not? And who are you then?

          3. Spell it right, ignorant -FreeDland
          Quote: Liam
          emphasize Jewish origin of persons

          .Accenting (underlining) occurred much earlier when that person changed her last name.... on the someone else's belay
          .
          And no one noticed.
          1. Liam
            Liam 12 June 2020 10: 27 New
            +7
            Quote: Olgovich
            3. Spell it right, ignorant -FreeDland

            Olgovich
            Today, 05: 33
            +2


            Photo by M. Koltsov


            Photo of Moses Fridland


            ))))
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 12 June 2020 11: 00 New
              -5
              Quote: Liam
              Quote: Olgovich
              3. Spell it right, ignorant -FreeDland




              Photo of Moses Fridland


              ))))

              VaterlYand-Vaterland (with German - "country of fathers; fatherland") - different transcription. But the letter "n" you have is superfluous, i.e. you don't know our Moses Koltsov
              lol
              So there will be examples of mine anti-Semitismclaimed You, liar ?

              On the table them, a lover of gossip!
              1. Revolver
                Revolver 13 June 2020 05: 09 New
                +1
                So, when Ulyanov becomes Lenin or Dzhugashvili becomes Stalin, then all the rules.
                And when Bronstein becomes Trotsky or Friedland becomes Koltsov, is it sort of disguised from malicious motives?

                PS I sincerely respect Stalin and believe that Trotsky was awarded the Order of the Ice Ax deservingly.
                1. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 13 June 2020 06: 19 New
                  +2
                  Quote: Nagan
                  So, when Ulyanov becomes Lenin or Dzhugashvili becomes Stalin, then all the rules.

                  for you, norms, for normal, not norms.
                  Quote: Nagan
                  And when Bronstein becomes Trotsky or Friedland becomes Koltsov, is it sort of disguised from malicious motives?

                  invented yourself, yourself .... answer? lol

                  Not from malicious intentions, but from funny and ridiculous considerations that in this form it looks better and more attractive. lol
                  1. Zeev zeev
                    Zeev zeev 13 June 2020 06: 39 New
                    -3
                    Yes, indeed, a very "ridiculous consideration" to avoid discrimination on ethnic grounds (well, except for Trotsky, he just took an underground pseudonym for conspiracy, like the same Scriabin-Molotov). Then the Koltsovs and Efremovs appear instead of Fridlands, Primakovs instead of Kirshenbaum, and Mironovs instead of Menaker. And even quite a Belarusian Smoktunovich, on the advice of the theater director "so that it doesn't sound too Jewish", changes his surname to Smoktunovsky.
                    1. Olgovich
                      Olgovich 13 June 2020 07: 35 New
                      +2
                      Quote: ZeevZeev
                      Yes, indeed, it is a very "ridiculous consideration" to avoid discrimination based on ethnicity

                      Give the facts of discrimination Friedland in the USSR, only without empty talk.

                      I know that poor Friedland was so criminated, so scolded right up to ... the editor of Ogonyok ... belay lol
                      1. Zeev zeev
                        Zeev zeev 14 June 2020 18: 32 New
                        -3
                        Let me remind you that the editor of Ogonyok was not Moisha Khaimovich Fridlyand, but Mikhail Efimovich Koltsov. Like the hero of socialist labor, it was not Shimon Isaekovich Magaziner who became the hero, but Semyon Mikhailovich Lavochkin. And the songs from every window were heard by the country not performed by Leiser Weisbein, but by Leonid Utesov. Apparently they all had good reasons to change their first / last name / patronymic, right?
                      2. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 14 June 2020 19: 07 New
                        0
                        Quote: ZeevZeev
                        Let me remind you that the editor of Ogonyok was not Moisha Khaimovich Fridlyand, but Mikhail Efimovich Koltsov. Like the hero of socialist labor, it was not Shimon Isaekovich Magaziner who became the hero, but Semyon Mikhailovich Lavochkin. And the country heard songs from every window not performed by Leiser Weisbein, but by Leonid Utesov


                        Yeah, and NOBODY even suspected that they were .... Friedland, Magaziner. lol

                        You purely in Israeli answered a completely different question:
                        Give FACTS Friedland discrimination in the USSR, only no empty chatter.
                        Quote: ZeevZeev
                        Apparently they all had good reasons to change their first / last name / patronymic, right?

                        1. The reason I have already indicated above (this is my opinion)

                        2. Millions of Jews honorably and boldly bore their real names.

                        Why go far? Only, for example, mine friends and acquaintances: Shoikhet, Nudelman, Mendelblatt, Goldstein, Weinstein, Siris, Buskis Sulamith, Oscar Bella, etc.

                        Smart, beautiful, excellent, unashamed people.
                        ,
                        3. The mass emigration of Russian Jews to the West, primarily to the United States, was accompanied by the adaptation of surnames to the standards of English phoneticand (in particular, the rejection of Slavic endings such as -kiy, -tskiy, -ovskiy, etc.), as well as the wide borrowing of personal names and surnames accepted in the local environment. https://jewish.ru/en/stories/ reviews / 5282 /
                      3. Zeev zeev
                        Zeev zeev 14 June 2020 22: 37 New
                        -2
                        We didn’t know what was typical. In addition to close people and apparatchiks with access to profiles. Disabled "fifth column" is not invented now.
                      4. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 15 June 2020 08: 07 New
                        0
                        Quote: ZeevZeev
                        They did not suspect that it was characteristic. In addition to loved ones and apparatchiks with access to profiles

                        Yeah, those who appointed Moses as chief editor did not know ?! belay
                        You yourself are not funny?

                        And so everyone knew everything, I don’t know where. I didn't give a damn about it and never wondered who was who. I think, like you.

                        Quote: ZeevZeev
                        Disabled "fifth column" is not invented now.

                        Yes.
                        But-Millions of Jews with honor and boldly carried their real names.

                        Why go far? Only, for example, my friends and acquaintances: Shoikhet, Nudelman, Mendelblatt, Goldstein, Weinstein, Siris, Buskis Sulamith, Oscar Bella, etc.
                      5. Zeev zeev
                        Zeev zeev 15 June 2020 08: 34 New
                        -1
                        Those who appointed knew. But sometimes they did not care. And if it wasn’t, then it wasn’t appointed.
                      6. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 15 June 2020 10: 53 New
                        0
                        Quote: ZeevZeev
                        But they sometimes didn't care

                        Those. knew and intended.

                        And when not.

                        So with other people, so
          2. akims
            akims 15 June 2020 23: 07 New
            0
            And then the Ivanovs, Petrovs and Evdokimovs come and correct the axes ...
  • gsev
    gsev 13 June 2020 01: 49 New
    -3
    Quote: Liam
    suffer from anti-Semitism and emphasize the Jewish origin of individuals
    Actually, this phrase glorifies the Jewish people, regardless of the sympathy for the Jews of its author. M. Koltsov was among the Spanish anti-fascists. That is, in the late 1930s, he risked his life fighting those who tortured and killed USSR citizens in 1941 and 1942 as part of the Blue Division.
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 13 June 2020 06: 57 New
      +2
      Quote: gsev
      suffer from anti-Semitism and emphasize the Jewish origin of individuals
      Actually, this phrase glorifies the Jewish people, regardless of the sympathy for the Jews of its author.

      The Jewish people, I think, least of all needs "glorification" from ...informer and liar yes
      Quote: gsev
      M. Koltsov was among the Spanish anti-fascists. That is, in the late 1930s, he risked his life fighting those who tortured and killed USSR citizens in 1941 and 1942 as part of the Blue Division.

      How much pathosdeceitful through...

      This is a full fighter failed organization of resistance to the Nazis, see the result.

      Shot by the power itself as .... fascist lol

      A crappy, disgusting little man-coward, a conjuncturist and a hypocrite ...

      He slandered more than 70 people, most of whom were shot

      Wild Russophobe dancing on Russian bones:

      so called "Koltsov" about the destruction of the Russian pearl-Simonov monastery ::
      “... Laying pyroxylin checkers ... And then the roar ... less powerful than expected ... Another blow ...

      No, it is wonderful! - The cathedral was divided into completely separate, disconnected solid bricks. They lie like a hill of refined sugar ...

      New explosions, and with them a whole class takes off, takes off from the earth, hitherto tenacious and strong, like the walls of this monastery ”


      Bastard ....

  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 12 June 2020 09: 17 New
    0
    Quote: kalibr
    Dear Andrey! Thank you, firstly, for correcting the photo. Used the Internet and, apparently, unsuccessfully, if your information is more accurate.

    Dear Vyacheslav Olegovich, hello!

    In no way did I want to correct you, it was just a clarification
    Quote: kalibr
    As for what you wrote about violation of oath, then ... it's not so simple. It was violated by officers of Charles the First, Napoleon, some of his marshals, Japanese samurai, including Ieyasu Tokugawa

    This is clearly a crime and as such it is recognized by the laws of all countries and at all times.

    And this is understandable, because the army and, therefore, the state stand on it.

    And Napoleon punished for her violation too
    Quote: kalibr
    It all depends on how the "violation" ended. If you lose, then yes, you are a scoundrel and a traitor, and if you win, then you are a patriotic hero who saved your homeland.

    And this is conjuncture
    Quote: kalibr
    For Spain, as we see it today, the best outcome was the victory of Moscardo and others like him ...

    But I do not agree: for OUR country, in the light of impending events, the Republicans would be preferable to Franco: Hitler would have one, albeit weak, less ally
    1. kalibr
      12 June 2020 10: 25 New
      +4
      Quote: Olgovich
      But I do not agree: for OUR country, in the light of impending events, the Republicans would be preferable to Franco: Hitler would have one, albeit weak, less ally

      I agree, yes. In the light of "events" - yes. But for the Spaniards themselves ... definitely not. And that's what I meant.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 12 June 2020 10: 50 New
        +3
        Quote: kalibr
        But for the Spaniards themselves ... definitely - no. And I meant just that.

        It’s impossible to say unequivocally, because no one knows -as it would be if it were ....
    2. vladcub
      vladcub 12 June 2020 15: 01 New
      +3
      Andrei "Olgovich", I agree that "Republicans would have been preferable to Franco": Hitler might have postponed the attack on the Soviet Union.
      As for the allies, the weakest, purely nominal, was the Bulgarian Tsar Boris. Antonescu tried to give in to the Fuhrer, and Franco acted purely in a Jewish way: he drove all active supporters of Hitler to Russia. Like: "Fuehrer, I would be glad to send more, only pants are gone. But they are terribly brave."
      Antonescu tried to serve the Fuhrer
    3. Zeev zeev
      Zeev zeev 14 June 2020 18: 43 New
      -2
      But I also do not agree. Without intervention (carefully hidden and categorically denied by the USSR), the history of the Spanish Civil War would have gone a completely different way. If the Republicans didn’t have tons of Soviet weapons, Soviet tanks, Soviet planes, Soviet commanders, the phalangists would have won much faster and without the need for German help.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 14 June 2020 19: 32 New
        -1
        Quote: ZeevZeev
        No would Republicans tons Soviet weapons, Soviet tanks, Soviet aircraft, Soviet commanders, phalangists would win much faster and without the need for Germanic assistance.

        "would" cost nothing.

        And yes, one compensated for the other
        .
        PS You make me wonder: to support from Israel ... Hitler's ally ....? what

        For reference: About 8 Jewish volunteersin fought on the side of the Republicans during the Spanish Civil War in 1936 - 1938, amounting tothe fourth part of the personnel of the Interbrigades.
        Jews saw themselves at the forefront of the struggle against Nazi Germany, who openly helped Franco.
        1. Zeev zeev
          Zeev zeev 14 June 2020 20: 29 New
          -1
          I do not support Franco, I propose a likely scenario. By the way, despite the fact that during the war, fifty thousand Jews escaped from Nazis from Yugoslavia, Greece and France on Spanish soil, Israel never supported the Franco regime.
  • Pilat2009
    Pilat2009 12 June 2020 21: 19 New
    0
    Quote: kalibr
    Klaus von Stauffenberg also violated her ...

    In Germany, it seems, they personally swore allegiance to the Führer, those to Hitler.
  • kalibr
    12 June 2020 08: 19 New
    +3
    Quote: Olgovich
    (and it was for that)

    I can't help but pass by this phrase ... "There was a reason!" Yes it was! Many of our Russian landowners in their estates did such things that ... yes, it is necessary. But there were others that the peasants hid from the same Pugachevites. We had such a manor in the Penza region! And there were those who fell under the "distribution" with the most tragic consequences. And examples, again, in my field were. I inserted one such example into the novel "Three from Ensk". The officer's family. The wife took care of the peasant children. But ... "rob the loot"! And people went to kill ... You should read, Andrey ... Although there is "For Whom the Bell Tolls", it also describes the massacre of the former ...
    1. Astra wild
      Astra wild 12 June 2020 20: 11 New
      +3
      Vyacheslav Olegovich, reveal the secret: does advertising for the book "Three from Ensk" bring results?
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 12 June 2020 08: 35 New
    +7
    "Colonel" broke his oath,
    Moscardo swore allegiance to the Spanish monarchy.
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 12 June 2020 09: 24 New
      -1
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      Moscardo swore allegiance to the Spanish monarchy.

      monarchy really 6 years no.

      And he serves her all ... In the service of the Republicans ....

      Dissonance, no?
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 12 June 2020 10: 21 New
        +9
        No. I also swore allegiance to one state, and I had to serve in others.
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 12 June 2020 11: 19 New
          -1
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          No. I also swore allegiance to one state, and I had to serve in others.


          The oaths of RI, then the same people-VP, then the same RSFSR, then the USSR.

          After 91 g, the second oath was taken in the national republics.

          I’m not going to go into the history of the Spanish oath, of course, but if a military man swore an oath to the monarch and serves .... the republic, he should at least quit.

          Otherwise, game.
          1. ser56
            ser56 12 June 2020 18: 20 New
            +1
            Quote: Olgovich
            Oaths of millions of RI,

            not at all - they personally swore allegiance to the emperor!
            Quote: Olgovich
            , then, at least, he should quit.

            the monarch emigrated, so de facto freed the military from the oath ... hi
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 13 June 2020 07: 20 New
              -1
              Quote: ser56
              not at all - they personally swore allegiance to the emperor!

              1. nyud- "millions (people) swore oath of RI (what?)"

              2. Emperor .... Mars?

              Autocrat All-Russian, to serve, not sparing his stomach, to the last drop of blood, and. His Imperial Majesty's state and lands of His enemies, body and blood, mending resistance, and
              Quote: ser56
              the monarch emigrated, so de facto freed the military from the oath

              Yeah, and from now on take the oath .... have ceased to serve, to whom .... do you want lol
              1. ser56
                ser56 13 June 2020 12: 02 New
                +2
                Quote: Olgovich
                2. Emperor .... Mars?

                you have a bad understanding of the text or knowledge of the history of Russia?
                I repeat:
                Quote: ser56
                personally swore to the emperor!
                hi

                Quote: Olgovich
                The autocrat of the All-Russian, with

                you badly taught to quote, correct quote:
                "to the emperor [First and middle name], To the All-Russian Autocrat, "
                I hope it’s clear now? request
                Quote: Olgovich
                Stop serving, to whom .... do you want

                indeed ... this is the fate of all countries in an era of change ... request
                Gorbi lowered the flag and the USSR died - as did the oath ... request
                1. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 13 June 2020 12: 19 New
                  -2
                  Quote: ser56
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  2. Emperor .... Mars?

                  you have a bad understanding of the text or knowledge of the history of Russia?
                  t:

                  You have absolutely poor knowledge of the RUSSIAN language: hence your misunderstanding and your ridiculous questions.

                  If you learn the case-genitive (what?) And dative (to whom?) - then they will disappear from you. hi
                  Quote: ser56
                  you badly taught to quote, correct quote:
                  "to the Emperor [Name and patronymic], the Autocrat of All Russia,"
                  I hope it’s clear now?

                  You were brought up badly: I bring an extract in the form and size in which I consider it necessary and sufficient and it is not someone's business to correct me. hi

                  Did it get there? No.
                  Quote: ser56
                  indeed ... this is the fate of all countries in an era of change ...

                  The next oath is given - life does not stop and the oath is also yes
                  1. ser56
                    ser56 13 June 2020 18: 31 New
                    +3
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    You were brought up badly

                    plagiarism... bully
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    I give an extract in the form and size in which I consider it necessary and sufficient and not someone to correct me.

                    1) your quote distorts the meaning of the oath - bringing it to a particular monarch, and not at all ... request
                    2) your inferiority complexes are violet to me - since you deigned to write stupidity - this is your problem and it is easier to admit than to aggravate by skirmishing ... hi
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    The next oath is given - life does not stop and the oath is also

                    1) the question is when to stop - the oath is a sacred action and its repetition is not good ... request
                    2) I'm glad that you did not explicitly acknowledge your libel against the Spanish colonel ... hi
                    1. Olgovich
                      Olgovich 14 June 2020 08: 48 New
                      -1
                      Quote: ser56
                      plagiarism...

                      Ide? belay
                      Quote: ser56
                      1) your quote distorts the meaning of the oath - bringing it to a particular monarch, and not at all.

                      Today is one monarch, tomorrow is another.
                      Did it get there? recourse
                      Quote: ser56
                      your inferiority complexes are purple to me - since you deigned to write stupidity - this is your problem and it is easier to admit than to aggravate by skirmishing

                      Funny when violet - talks about ... stupidity request
                      Quote: ser56
                      you deign wrote

                      What language is this.? recourse
                      Quote: ser56
                      1) the question is when to stop - the oath is a sacred action and its repetition is not good.

                      What nonsense life does not stop due to, for example, the death of the monarch.
                      and the next monarch (next power) needs fidelity and subjugation no less and that means she will be prince.
                      Quote: ser56
                      2) glad you though not explicitly recognized his libel on the Spanish colonel


                      belay This is apparently the result of violet recourse : about the colonel, I can only repeat what I indicated above. hi
                    2. ser56
                      ser56 14 June 2020 19: 36 New
                      -1
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      Ide?

                      forgot how to read? request
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      Today is one monarch, tomorrow is another.
                      Did it get there?

                      keep fooling around? your right... bully
                      I’m chewing - today we swear to one monarch, if he died or resigned, we swear to another ... hi even for you to understand - they do not swear an oath not to the monarch in general and not to the monarchy as a whole - to a particular monarch ... wink
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      It’s funny when a violent one talks about ... stupidity

                      Is your Russian not native? request but your complex is noticeable ... request
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      What language is this.?

                      in Russian, literary ... I recommend reading Russian classics ... hi
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      Needs loyalty and subjugation no less and that means she will be prince.

                      in other words, admitted their stupidity? repeat The question was not in the monarch, but in what happens when the republic is proclaimed, as it was in Spain! Or we have, when instead of the USSR it became the Russian Federation ...

                      Quote: Olgovich
                      of the colonel, I can only repeat what I indicated above.

                      you can continue clowning further - I'm too lazy to show it to you further ... good luck.
                    3. Olgovich
                      Olgovich 14 June 2020 20: 24 New
                      -1
                      Quote: ser56
                      forgot how to read?


                      What .... AGAIN did not reach? belay lol
                      Quote: ser56
                      I’m chewing - today we swear to one monarch, if he died or resigned, we swear to another ...

                      AGAIN I will repeat for the tankman:
                      Quote: ser56
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      Today is one monarch, tomorrow is another.
                      Did it get there?
                      No.
                      Quote: ser56
                      Is your Russian not native? but your complex is noticeable ..

                      Your Russian is not native: see above ..

                      Don't you know who speaks about the complexes, the diseases surrounding them more than others? request
                      Themselves, sick poor fellows and say-chop yourself on your forehead hi
                      Quote: ser56
                      in Russian, literary... I recommend reading Russian classics ...

                      .No. Please go to school, "you have written" lol
                      Quote: ser56
                      the question was not in the monarch, but in what happens with the proclamation Republic, as it was in Spain! Or we have, when instead of the USSR it became the Russian Federation ...

                      1Get it finally?! Well, thank God, not even three days have passed ... yes lol

                      2. Yes, the subject of discussion was the phrase: "
                      The colonel "broke his oath, which means he is a bastard and a traitor who took part in a tragic civil war.
                      .

                      Those. he took the oath of office to the republic (the next, after the monarchy, power) that inevitably should happen and always happens .., because
                      a life. does not stop due, for example, to the death of a monarch. and the next monarch (track. power ) needs fidelity and subjugation no less and that means she will inevitably be brought.


                      Good that you at least
                      Quote: ser56
                      recognized their stupidity


                      PS What makes it so tight for you? : request
                    4. ser56
                      ser56 14 June 2020 21: 06 New
                      -1
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      EVIDENTLY had to happen and happens ALWAYS ..,

                      your inevitably violated in 1992 in Russia request as it was in Spain in 1931 - I don’t know ... request
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      What comes so tight to you

                      forced to pass the ball back to you - see above! In addition, even if the colonel took an oath to the republic, then its violation is not obvious - the government of the Popular Front began to violate the conditions and laws of life, led to anarchy ... request The closest analogy is Ukraine 2014 - have Crimeans changed their oath of arms? Or Donbass
                      so your level philippics:
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      The colonel "broke his oath, which means he is a scoundrel and a traitor,

                      at least speaks of the stupidity of the writer ... request As for the colonel, he is a man of rare honor and courage, but for you it is difficult ... hi

                      Quote: Olgovich
                      Don't you know who speaks about the complexes, the diseases surrounding them more than others?

                      1) you have self-prophecy - I did not write about diseases ... request
                      2) as for the complexes - this is clearly visible from your texts - I just stated this ...
                      you lied to the oath of the RIA in the quote and still persist - not a sworn oath to any monarch, but a concrete one with a full name bully
                      ok - you're not curious to me because of the banality ... good luck!
                    5. Olgovich
                      Olgovich 14 June 2020 21: 48 New
                      -1
                      Quote: ser56
                      yours was inevitably violated in 1992 in Russia as it was in Spain in 1931 - I don’t know.

                      In ALL the components of the USSR it is SO.

                      And Russia, the successor of the USSR, was not needed in it
                      Quote: ser56
                      forced to pass the ball back to you - see above!

                      So back and forth! (higher) yes
                      Quote: ser56
                      In addition, even if the colonel took an oath to the republic, then its violation is not obvious - the government of the Popular Front began to violate the conditions and laws of life, led to anarchy ...

                      Not for you to decide. If each ch. Udak will decide what has fulfilled / no pr-in and whether to serve him-state will not be. Gave the Oath, serve!
                      Quote: ser56
                      The closest analogy is Ukraine 2014 - have Crimeans changed their oath of arms?

                      . What, in u, "analogy"? belay
                      This "country" fell apart, no object of oath.
                      Spain did not fall apart
                      .
                      Quote: ser56
                      so that your philippics level:
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      The colonel "broke his oath, which means he is a scoundrel and a traitor,

                      at least says oh nonsenseand who wrote ...

                      This is foolish reasoning request
                      Quote: ser56
                      1) you have self-prophecy - I did not write about diseases ...

                      You have sclerosis / ignorance, yes
                      Quote: ser56
                      2) as for the complexes - this is clearly visible from your texts - I just stated this ...

                      AGAIN did not hack on the forehead ?! ONCE AGAIN: who speaks about complexes, diseases surrounding more than others?
                      The sick poor fellows themselves
                      Quote: ser56
                      you lied to the oath of the RIA in the quote and still persist - not a sworn oath to any monarch, but a concrete one with a full name

                      Today, THIS specific, tomorrow-OTHER specific (as received) but-the monarchbut the next power. What's not clear?!
                      When will it finally come? !
                      Quote: ser56
                      ok - you're not curious to me because of the banality ... good luck!

                      From empty to empty pour, from empty to empty pour ... Curious one thing, how long can you? lol

                      Tired and already ......
                    6. ser56
                      ser56 15 June 2020 11: 57 New
                      -1
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      If each ch. Udak will decide what has fulfilled / no pr-in and whether to serve him, the state will not. Gave the Oath, serve!

                      you are funny - a soldier is not an assault rifle and himself understands what he is doing! in an era of drastic changes, all normative acts lose their force ...
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      This "country" has disintegrated, there is no object of oath.
                      Spain did not fall apart

                      1) The existing Ukraine is the recipient of the country in 2013, at least the troops did not swear allegiance there again - therefore:
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      And Russia, the successor of the USSR, was not needed in it

                      Quote: Olgovich
                      Gave the Oath, serve!

                      your 2nd standards amuse - in your coordinates in Crimea all traitors ... bully
                      2) it was also in Spain - the extreme left came to power through elections with a slight margin, in fact it was also that in Germany with the advent of Hitler (only there anti-communists and the elections are more difficult), but in Spain the army was able to defend the country.
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      You have sclerosis / ignorance, yes

                      Quote: Olgovich
                      who speaks about complexes, diseases surrounding more than others?

                      you are commonplace in your complexes, alas, forced to repeat ... bully
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      Today, THIS concrete, tomorrow-OTHER concrete (upon receipt) no-monarch, but-the next power. What's not clear?!

                      Eka twirls you ... bully but above everything is written .... request 13 June 2020 07: 20
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      Quote: ser56
                      not at all - they personally swore allegiance to the emperor!
                      1. nyud- "millions (people) swore oath of RI (what?)"
                      2. Emperor .... Mars?

                      and the essence is simple - you did not understand the banal - they swear an oath to the monarch even now, but what will happen after his death or renunciation is another question! Someone will refuse to swear another authority - see. Crimea 2014 ... hi
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      Tired and already ......

                      you are badly educated and often write nonsense of a moral plan about people who went down in history with their deeds ... good luck ... hi
                    7. Olgovich
                      Olgovich 15 June 2020 12: 03 New
                      0
                      Quote: ser56
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      If each ch. Udak will decide what has fulfilled / no pr-in and whether to serve him, the state will not. Gave the Oath, serve!

                      you are funny - a soldier is not an assault rifle and himself understands what he is doing! in an era of drastic changes, all normative acts lose their force ...
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      This "country" has disintegrated, there is no object of oath.
                      Spain did not fall apart

                      1) The existing Ukraine is the recipient of the country in 2013, at least the troops did not swear allegiance there again - therefore:
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      And Russia, the successor of the USSR, was not needed in it

                      Quote: Olgovich
                      Gave the Oath, serve!

                      your 2nd standards amuse - in your coordinates in Crimea all traitors ... bully
                      2) it was also in Spain - the extreme left came to power through elections with a slight margin, in fact it was also that in Germany with the advent of Hitler (only there anti-communists and the elections are more difficult), but in Spain the army was able to defend the country.
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      You have sclerosis / ignorance, yes

                      Quote: Olgovich
                      who speaks about complexes, diseases surrounding more than others?

                      you are commonplace in your complexes, alas, forced to repeat ... bully
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      Today, THIS concrete, tomorrow-OTHER concrete (upon receipt) no-monarch, but-the next power. What's not clear?!

                      Eka twirls you ... bully but above everything is written .... request 13 June 2020 07: 20
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      Quote: ser56
                      not at all - they personally swore allegiance to the emperor!
                      1. nyud- "millions (people) swore oath of RI (what?)"
                      2. Emperor .... Mars?

                      and the essence is simple - you did not understand the banal - they swear an oath to the monarch even now, but what will happen after his death or renunciation is another question! Someone will refuse to swear another authority - see. Crimea 2014 ... hi
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      Tired and already ......

                      you are badly educated and often write nonsense of a moral plan about people who went down in history with their deeds ... good luck ... hi


                      To you three days what is written comes up, who can stand it (I don’t read it already)?

                      But it’s clearly said to you: tired of ..

                      What's not clear? belay

                      Good luck! hi
                    8. ser56
                      ser56 15 June 2020 12: 37 New
                      0
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      (no longer reading)

                      It's clear laughing the problem is that even after reading you don’t understand ... hi
  • kalibr
    12 June 2020 12: 51 New
    +1
    "The Scotsman broke his oath, he ruined the king for a penny!"
  • ser56
    ser56 12 June 2020 18: 15 New
    +2
    Quote: Olgovich
    "Colonel" broke his oath, which means he is a scoundrel and a traitor who took part in a tragic civil war.

    you don’t know the situation in republican Spain in those years - there was essentially a red terror ...
    1. gsev
      gsev 13 June 2020 01: 34 New
      -3
      Quote: ser56
      Republican Spain in those years - there was essentially a red terror ...

      Republicans probably cannot be recognized as Stalinist communists. Apparently the civil war in Spain is a consequence of conflicts in Spanish society. A little earlier in another Spanish-speaking country, Mexico, there was a bloody military conflict between the state and the clerics, the Kristeros revolt. Active battles took place from 1926 to 1931, and cruel oppression and numerous killings of active Catholics until 1934. Please note that World War 2 began after the defeat of Republican Spain. Perhaps Hitler would not have dared to attack Poland if he knew that a state hostile to him was in the rear of France. And the presence in Spain of a successful left-wing but different from the Stalinist state may have caused the transformation of the regime in the USSR towards greater freedom and democracy.
      1. Revolver
        Revolver 13 June 2020 05: 21 New
        +1
        Quote: gsev
        Republicans probably cannot be recognized as Stalinist communists.

        The Stalinist Communists were in the minority. Anarchists and Trotskyists ruled.
        Quote: gsev
        the presence in Spain of a successful left-wing but different from the Stalinist state may have caused a transformation of the regime in the USSR towards greater freedom and democracy.

        Trotskyists - Supporters of Freedom and Democracy? Oh well. Trotsky planned martial law, to consider workers mobilized into the labor army, to socialize women and make available to those who deserve this award. I saw the children in the orphanage, all without exception (well, maybe with exceptions for the top leadership of the country) and raise them as cogs of the system. The USSR was incredibly lucky that it was Stalin who won in the undercover fight.
        1. ser56
          ser56 13 June 2020 11: 56 New
          +2
          Quote: Nagan
          Oh well. Trotsky planned martial law, to consider workers mobilized into the labor army, to socialize women and make available to those who deserve this award. I saw the children in the orphanage, all without exception (well, maybe with exceptions for the top leadership of the country) and raise them as cogs of the system.

          it was also planned by K. Marx in the Manifesto ... request
          Quote: Nagan
          The USSR was incredibly lucky that it was Stalin who won in the undercover fight.

          two varieties of the bowel movement .. request
        2. gsev
          gsev 13 June 2020 15: 54 New
          +2
          Quote: Nagan
          Oh well. Trotsky planned martial law, to consider workers mobilized into the labor army, to socialize women and make available to those who deserve this award.

          As far as I know, the excesses of collectivization and mass repression, Stalin was able to start only after the victory over Trotsky.
      2. ser56
        ser56 13 June 2020 11: 54 New
        +2
        Quote: gsev
        Apparently the Spanish Civil War is a consequence of conflicts in Spanish societies

        of course request However, many people wanted to resolve these conflicts quickly - so they killed priests and burned churches ... - is that familiar? hi
        Quote: gsev
        Perhaps Hitler would not have dared to attack Poland if he knew that a hostile state was in the rear of France.

        delirium - the presence of France did not stop him! request By the way, Germany borders with Spain through France ... bully
        Quote: gsev
        And the presence in Spain of a successful left-wing but different from the Stalinist state may have caused a transformation of the regime in the USSR towards greater freedom and democracy.

        what nonsense ... laughing
  • The leader of the Redskins
    The leader of the Redskins 12 June 2020 06: 25 New
    +1
    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich. They were surprised. Learned about the Spanish campaign. Well, my ideals are a bit ... moved, or something ...
    1. sergo1914
      sergo1914 12 June 2020 06: 49 New
      +4
      Quote: Leader of the Redskins
      Well, my ideals are a bit ... moved, or something ...


      A masterpiece. Is it seasonal changes or on an ongoing basis?
      1. The leader of the Redskins
        The leader of the Redskins 12 June 2020 08: 39 New
        -2
        This means that I was brought up on Soviet history and always considered Republicans to be true fighters for a just cause. Honest, noble. And then an unpleasant fact pops up.
        1. Liam
          Liam 12 June 2020 08: 49 New
          +8
          Quote: Leader of the Redskins
          Honest, noble

          In civil wars, honest and noble ones are always few. Atrocities and cruelties prevail and the Spanish war is no exception. Republicans also committed atrocities unworthy of normal people, especially against the church, which set up the majority of the Spanish people who were very religious.
          1. kalibr
            12 June 2020 10: 27 New
            +6
            Following will be 2 articles about the uniform of the Spanish army of that time. Both Republicans and Nationalists. And there will be a photo of republican soldiers on the background of relics ... recovered from the monastery ... Horror, to be honest!
            1. Liam
              Liam 12 June 2020 13: 07 New
              +5
              During the first 6 months of the civil war, Republicans killed at least 7.000 church attendants, including about 300 nuns.
        2. Krasnoyarsk
          Krasnoyarsk 12 June 2020 09: 17 New
          +1
          Quote: Leader of the Redskins
          . And then an unpleasant fact pops up.

          The fact from Shpakovsky is another fact.
          1. kalibr
            12 June 2020 10: 27 New
            +4
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            The fact from Shpakovsky is another fact.

            Objective reality, however!
    2. Liam
      Liam 12 June 2020 08: 02 New
      +8
      The reason for Franco's refusal to storm Madrid in favor of saving the defenders of Toledo is much more complicated than presented in the article
      1. vladcub
        vladcub 12 June 2020 15: 25 New
        +2
        Frankly: I know little about those events. Therefore, I comment on assumptions
        Perhaps Franco was not sure that he would quickly capture Madrid, and Toledo is easier + from the propaganda point of view
        1. Liam
          Liam 12 June 2020 18: 59 New
          +2
          At that time, Franco was not the first violin in the ranks of the insurgents. The General Mola was considered the commander and the quick seizure of Madrid and power in the country at that moment made Mola the most likely candidate for the post of caudillo. Here Franco slowed down the attack on Madrid, collected the laurels of the liberator of Toledo, made it possible for Mola to unsuccessfully navigate Madrid without really helping him, and after the death of the latter, he took everything in hand.
          1. vladcub
            vladcub 12 June 2020 20: 33 New
            0
            Was the plane crash not adjusted?
            1. Liam
              Liam 12 June 2020 20: 56 New
              0
              Quote: vladcub
              Was the plane crash not adjusted?

              There is a great mystery, but the organizer and the first rebel commander, General José Sanjurjo, also died in a plane crash
    3. Krasnoyarsk
      Krasnoyarsk 12 June 2020 09: 14 New
      +1
      Quote: Leader of the Redskins
      Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich. They were surprised. Learned about the Spanish campaign. Well, my ideals are a bit ... moved, or something ...

      In all his opuses, Shpakovsky strives, works out the pieces of silver, precisely to this - "to shift ideals." Don't you get it yet?
      1. kalibr
        12 June 2020 10: 28 New
        +3
        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
        precisely to this, - "shift ideals."

        Namely, if they are dilapidated ...
        1. Krasnoyarsk
          Krasnoyarsk 12 June 2020 11: 23 New
          +1
          Quote: kalibr
          Quote: Krasnoyarsk
          precisely to this, - "shift ideals."

          Namely, if they are dilapidated ...

          Ideals cannot "decay". Ideals, they are - ideals. They are either there or not, like yours.
          1. kalibr
            12 June 2020 12: 49 New
            +2
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            Ideals cannot "decay".

            For God, the Tsar and the Fatherland! Was that ideal? Was! Yes I swam!
            1. vladcub
              vladcub 12 June 2020 15: 30 New
              +1
              Actually: "For God, Tsar and Fatherland" was a slogan, but the slogan with idials is not the same
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 12 June 2020 16: 37 New
                +2
                Greetings, Vlad!
                This is not a slogan. This is the motto of the army of RI.
            2. Krasnoyarsk
              Krasnoyarsk 12 June 2020 17: 42 New
              0
              Quote: kalibr
              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              Ideals cannot "decay".

              For God, the Tsar and the Fatherland! Was that ideal? Was! Yes I swam!

              This is not ideal, it is a call, a slogan, you are our competent. Read Vissarionovich, he knew a lot about this issue.
      2. ccsr
        ccsr 12 June 2020 13: 35 New
        +2
        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
        Have you still not understood this?

        Yes, everyone understood long ago. But he has an awl in one place and there will be many similar opuses, especially since he creates a material base for himself with likes, and the number of participants who have accepted the discussion of his texts is important for him. He does not even hide this - recently there was a discussion with him of his true motives in posting texts on the forum, and he himself said that the number of comments on his articles is very important for him. True, sometimes from his texts carries deceit and unprofessionalism a mile away, but Shpakovsky is a "free artist" and he sees the world that way.
        1. kalibr
          12 June 2020 14: 10 New
          -3
          Quote: ccsr
          He doesn’t even hide this - he recently had a discussion about his true motives in posting texts on the forum, and he himself said that the number of comments on his articles is very important for him.

          Here you write one thing, and you read another. It is not important to me, but important to the site, of which I am a journalist, because it increases its attractiveness for advertisers. Any site lives on ad revenue. This is a business. No ads - no website. And to have advertising, you need votes / clicks that are "sold". This is called "investment attractiveness". To me personally, your torrents actually add nothing, but to the site ... a lot of things, and in the end, indirectly, both me and you, too, by the way! Everything is interconnected. Now at least explained?
          1. ccsr
            ccsr 12 June 2020 14: 31 New
            +4
            Quote: kalibr
            Now, at least readily explained?

            I wove it with three boxes as usual, instead of just saying - "I cut the dough here and no matter what I write, if only you would peck at my next article."
            1. kalibr
              12 June 2020 14: 44 New
              -4
              Are you not doing the same at work? And on articles, yes you have pecked now and are doomed to "peck" and further. It's interesting to learn new things, and even drain bile. This is all in a person's blood.
          2. 27091965
            27091965 12 June 2020 21: 11 New
            +5
            Quote: kalibr
            Here you write one, and you read another. It is not important to me, but important to the site of which I am a journalist, because this increases its attractiveness to advertisers. Any site lives on advertising revenue. This is a business.


            Strange system of business and attractiveness. Below are excerpts published, not in the USSR, but in the United States ten years after the end of World War II, opinions about the civil war in Spain;

            "........the rebels of General Franco fiercely attacked American correspondents in Spain, who daily reported the assistance that Germany and Italy were providing to Spain, and reports of bombings of defenseless Spanish cities...."

            "There are various estimates regarding the number of Americans who served and died in the Spanish conflict. Veterans of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade claimed that of the 3 Americans who served in Spain, about 000 survived. "The first battle against international fascism"".

            In my opinion, you were mistaken with the choice of "heroes" for doing business and increasing the attractiveness of the site.
            1. Krasnoyarsk
              Krasnoyarsk 13 June 2020 14: 26 New
              +3
              Quote: 27091965i
              In my opinion, you were mistaken with the choice of "heroes"

              No, he was not mistaken. He is on their side. These are precisely his heroes.
              1. 27091965
                27091965 13 June 2020 17: 48 New
                +1
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                No, he was not mistaken. He is on their side. These are precisely his heroes.


                Here the question is more likely not to the author, but to the site administration. How could they skip this article. Although apparently they are not familiar with published in 1946, the official and personal letters of Franco and his government addressed to Mussolini and Hitler. If they read them, I do not think that this article appeared on the VO website.
                1. Krasnoyarsk
                  Krasnoyarsk 13 June 2020 18: 05 New
                  0
                  Quote: 27091965i

                  Here the question is more likely not to the author, but to the site administration. How could they skip this article.

                  You know, I was thinking on this issue. Too much on the VO began to be published frankly and not very anti-Soviet and anti-Russian articles and articles in general about anything. And although most readers negatively evaluate these articles, the administration stubbornly continues to print them. This leads to a very definite thought - they share the point of view of these authors.
                  This is the editorial policy of the administration.
                  There was a moment when I thought that there was simply nothing to publish, there was not enough material. I thought they would soon start reprinting articles from "Murzilka". So far - nothing happened. What will happen tomorrow?
            2. kalibr
              17 June 2020 18: 43 New
              0
              Quote: 27091965i
              Rebels of General Franco

              But not fascists, are they? And who helps whom and how in their own interests is another question. We, too ... "helped" many people ...
        2. Aviator_
          Aviator_ 12 June 2020 15: 19 New
          +1
          Well, why only sometimes?
    4. not main
      not main 12 June 2020 22: 57 New
      +1
      Quote: Leader of the Redskins
      Well, my ideals are a bit ... moved, or something ...

      More precisely, it is not possible about my reaction to the article!
  • Slavutich
    Slavutich 12 June 2020 07: 21 New
    +5
    Moscardo is a fascist
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 12 June 2020 07: 37 New
      +3
      Yes - Fascist!
      But everything is known in comparison !!! Someone else's valor and firmness must be respected.
      1. Sergey S.
        Sergey S. 12 June 2020 10: 33 New
        +2
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        Yes - Fascist!
        But everything is known in comparison !!! Someone else's valor and firmness must be respected.

        Respect, so as not to show weakness, ... and win.
    2. kalibr
      12 June 2020 07: 44 New
      +6
      Quote: Slavutich

      Moscardo is a fascist

      Who told you that? Based on what such a conclusion? Based on the writings of Koltsov and Pavlov? So they are also shot as participants in a fascist conspiracy. During the Second World War with Spain, the Western powers did not break off relations. And for fascism, Spain was not persecuted.
      1. Krasnoyarsk
        Krasnoyarsk 12 June 2020 09: 21 New
        +2
        Quote: kalibr

        Who told you that? Based on what such a conclusion? Based on the writings of Koltsov and Pavlov?

        And really! Who are they if there is such a figure as Shpakovsky!
        So why was Pavlov shot? Historian. laughing
        1. vladcub
          vladcub 12 June 2020 21: 16 New
          0
          In fact, Pavlov has a muddy story: the verdict says: "for cowardice and unauthorized abandonment of strategic points without the permission of the high command,"
      2. Krasnoyarsk
        Krasnoyarsk 12 June 2020 09: 26 New
        0
        Quote: kalibr
        During the Second World War with Spain, the Western powers did not break off relations. And for fascism, Spain was not persecuted.

        That's right. Because - "Samosa is a son of a bitch, but he is our son of a bitch."
        Ahhh, Shpakovsky.
        1. kalibr
          12 June 2020 10: 32 New
          +8
          Quote: Krasnoyarsk
          That's right. Because - "Samosa is a son of a bitch, but he is our son of a bitch."
          Ahhh, Shpakovsky.

          And who sent the ZILs to the cannibal Bokassa, and he drove them across the dissenters in the square? "He is, of course, a cannibal, but this is our cannibal!" And his country made a socialist choice! Politicians adhered to such rules everywhere and always, in all countries ...
          "A belly is warming under the sun of the south, a half-fascist half-eser, a hero of the Soviet Union, Gamal Abdul for all Nasser !!!" - Our Nasser, our Hero!
          Ahhh, Krasnoyarsk!
          1. Krasnoyarsk
            Krasnoyarsk 12 June 2020 11: 33 New
            +1
            Quote: kalibr
            dissenting in the square? "He is, of course, a cannibal, but this is our cannibal!"

            That's right. So what do you mean by the fact that the "civilized west" did not break off relations with Franco.
            Do you want to show "oh what a good Franco!"
            1. kalibr
              12 June 2020 12: 47 New
              +2
              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              Do you want to show "oh what a good Franco!"

              For Spain, yes!
              1. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar 12 June 2020 14: 27 New
                +5
                Quote: kalibr
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                Do you want to show "oh what a good Franco!"

                For Spain, yes!

                Hello, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
                Yes FIG knows, he was good for Spain or not. It was definitely bad for the USSR — if Spain were a republican-socialist, Hitler would have turned there right after the defeat of France — this would have given the Red Army more time to prepare for the war.
                1. kalibr
                  12 June 2020 14: 47 New
                  +2
                  Hello! From the point of view of Machiavellian politics, everything that is bad for our enemies is good for us. But the Spaniards themselves ... not everything is so simple.
                  1. Krasnodar
                    Krasnodar 12 June 2020 15: 18 New
                    +2
                    As for the Spaniards themselves, Franco was probably better. It would be even better to leave the Moors - culture, trade, crafts and science flourished under them)).
                    1. Slavutich
                      Slavutich 12 June 2020 20: 35 New
                      +1
                      Better yet, Carthage
                    2. Krasnoyarsk
                      Krasnoyarsk 13 June 2020 18: 30 New
                      +2
                      Quote: Krasnodar
                      As for the Spaniards themselves, Franco was probably better.

                      = In 2006, the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe severely condemned the numerous and flagrant violations of human rights by the Franco regime in 1939-1975 [30] [31].
                      In 2007, when the Socialists had a stable majority in parliament, the Law on Historical Memory was adopted, in which the Valley of the Fallen was defined as a monument to the victims of Francoism.
                      In 2013, the Spanish Socialist Workers Party proposed moving the grave of Franco from the Valley of the Fallen to another place, and making the cemetery a memorial in memory of those who died during the reign of Franco. According to opinion polls, in 2013, for the transfer of Franco's remains were a little more than half of the country's citizens [32]. =
                      Even after so many years, more than half of the Spaniards evaluated the Franco regime negatively and therefore spoke out in favor of removing his ashes from the burial places of the victims of his reign.
                      And only you and Shpakovsky did not agree with the decision of the Spaniards, while not knowing anything about the Franco regime itself.
                      Well, of course you are forgiven, but the "writer" is ashamed and shameful to write without knowing the topic.
                      1. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 13 June 2020 18: 39 New
                        +1
                        Slightly less than half believes otherwise)).
                      2. Krasnoyarsk
                        Krasnoyarsk 13 June 2020 19: 48 New
                        -2
                        Quote: Krasnodar
                        Slightly less than half believes otherwise)).

                        And this does not give the right, to a normal person, to affirm
                        Quote: kalibr
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Do you want to show "oh what a good Franco!"

                        For Spain, yes!

                        It is clearly seen that a person is biased.
                        And what, a biased selection of acts for him - the main goal.
            2. Krasnoyarsk
              Krasnoyarsk 12 June 2020 17: 36 New
              +1
              Quote: kalibr
              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              Do you want to show "oh what a good Franco!"

              For Spain, yes!

              I am not surprised that you are a patriot of any country, but not Russia.
              This is the first. And the second - and what kind of sign are you for all Spaniards? Are those who disagree with you, but they are, and that's for sure, not Spaniards anymore?
              1. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar 13 June 2020 19: 01 New
                +2
                My post:
                Hello, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
                Yes FIG knows, he was good for Spain or not. It was definitely bad for the USSR — if Spain were a republican-socialist, Hitler would have turned there right after the defeat of France — this would have given the Red Army more time to prepare for the war.

                Now about my unpatriotism towards Russia:
                At the time of moving here for permanent residence, I could afford to live in any developed country in the world hi
                As for the "patriots" who in their city did not give up much to anyone, I will not continue
                1. Liam
                  Liam 13 June 2020 19: 26 New
                  +3
                  Franco dictatorship for Spain ex post factum turned out to be better than dictatorship the Republicans. Although I would have saved the country from the WWII boiler. But it remains a dictatorship. And modern Spaniards treat it as such, judging by comparison not with opponents in the civil war, but with the democracies of European neighbors.
                  1. Krasnodar
                    Krasnodar 13 June 2020 19: 29 New
                    +4
                    Quite right, but in addition, I am very suspicious of the polls and initiatives coming from the social parties. When they gain power, nothing good happens to the country.
                    1. Liam
                      Liam 13 June 2020 19: 41 New
                      +1
                      ))) For the last 38 years (since 1982), socialists have been taxiing in Spain for 25 years and brought it from a backward agrarian country to one of the most developed and rapidly developing countries in Europe
                    2. Krasnodar
                      Krasnodar 13 June 2020 19: 53 New
                      +3
                      I did not follow, I will not argue)).
                2. Krasnoyarsk
                  Krasnoyarsk 13 June 2020 20: 04 New
                  -1
                  Quote: Liam
                  Franco dictatorship for Spain turned out to be ex-facto

                  Did the Spaniards themselves tell you on a plebiscite? Or the Delphic oracle?
                  Or maybe you are a student of Grandma Wang? Gulchatay! Show your face!
                  Or maybe you lived in Spain during the reign of Franco? Do you know how it would be under the Republicans if they remained in power?
              2. Krasnoyarsk
                Krasnoyarsk 13 June 2020 19: 55 New
                -2
                Quote: Krasnodar

                Now about my unpatriotism towards Russia:

                Well, what are you, sickly, about your patriotism, so far, I have not said anything. The appeal to Shpakovsky, if you noticed, was.
                Or "a hat is on fire for a thief"?
                Quote: Krasnodar

                At the time of moving here for permanent residence, I could afford to live in any developed country in the world

                And I even guess why you chose Russia.
                In Russia, the people are simple-minded, kind, not vindictive, it is easier to outwit.
                After all, your success in "business" is ensured by this. No?
                In Israel or in Britain, or in the same states, you would have instantly burned out. No?
                1. Krasnodar
                  Krasnodar 13 June 2020 20: 13 New
                  +2
                  laughing
                  In Israel, Britain or the United States:
                  a) Power structures do not take part in squeezing out business
                  b) In Izrtakoy amount of kidalov, as in Russia
                  c) In Israel, workers steal much less than in Russia
                  d) The purchasing power of the population of Russia is many times less than that of the population of the States, Israel and the UK
                  e) I still am very far from Israeli earnings in Russia laughing
                  1. Krasnoyarsk
                    Krasnoyarsk 13 June 2020 20: 45 New
                    -3
                    Quote: Krasnodar
                    e) I still am very far from Israeli earnings in Russia

                    What am I talking about? There you are not here wassat
                    They won’t be able to cheat there, because there are more professional cheaters laughing
                    Quote: Krasnodar
                    a) Power structures do not take part in squeezing out business

                    And what structures have you got out of business? Entire Russian Armed Forces? or just a Strategic Missile Forces ?, or maybe the Navy or VKS?
                    And, not, - Rosguard. Exactly, she. Accept mine crying
                  2. Krasnodar
                    Krasnodar 13 June 2020 21: 07 New
                    +2
                    None of my areas of activity can swell lol And here - yes, cheating is more primitive, but there are many more))
                    I have nothing to squeeze, I'm not a manufacturer laughing
                  3. Krasnoyarsk
                    Krasnoyarsk 14 June 2020 10: 13 New
                    -1
                    Quote: Krasnodar
                    I'm not a manufacturer

                    And I had no doubt.
                  4. Krasnodar
                    Krasnodar 14 June 2020 10: 35 New
                    +3
                    Of course - you are a psychologist and a financial analyst hi And most importantly, you know very well what’s going on in your own country lol
                  5. Krasnoyarsk
                    Krasnoyarsk 14 June 2020 11: 24 New
                    -1
                    Quote: Krasnodar
                    Of course - you are a psychologist and a financial analyst hi

                    Not only. laughing
                    Quote: Krasnodar
                    And most importantly, you know very well what’s going on in your own country

                    Well Duc! tongue
                    The main thing is that I see you through and through, even with my eyes closed. tongue
                    hi
                  6. Krasnodar
                    Krasnodar 14 June 2020 12: 42 New
                    +3
                    Well, yes, you often intersect with people like me lol
                  7. Krasnoyarsk
                    Krasnoyarsk 14 June 2020 12: 45 New
                    -2
                    Quote: Krasnodar
                    Well, from the side of society you always know better lol

                    Do you know what position in society I occupy?
                    I, yours, I know, a trader. Are you mine?
                  8. Krasnodar
                    Krasnodar 14 June 2020 12: 52 New
                    +3
                    Judging by your communication style and level of knowledge, you worked in junior or middle team positions in state enterprises or state structures. )))
                  9. Krasnoyarsk
                    Krasnoyarsk 14 June 2020 13: 29 New
                    -2
                    Quote: Krasnodar
                    Judging by your communication style and level of knowledge, you worked in junior or middle team positions in state enterprises or state structures. )))

                    Yes, I repent, I often turn to the opponent’s communication style. I suppose I may be mistaken that it is more intelligible.
                  10. Krasnodar
                    Krasnodar 14 June 2020 13: 31 New
                    +3
                    So I'm wrong - you are not a representative of the junior or middle manager / command staff at the state. enterprises \ structures? )))
                  11. Krasnoyarsk
                    Krasnoyarsk 14 June 2020 13: 57 New
                    -2
                    Quote: Krasnodar
                    So i'm wrong

                    Does this surprise you?
                    So I earned a minus for the previous post, but I don’t understand - for what?
                    For the fact that - I repent, or for the fact that - I suppose?
                    You do not know?
                  12. Krasnodar
                    Krasnodar 14 June 2020 13: 59 New
                    +1
                    I did not set a minus - I do not know request
                    So again I ask - are you a representative of the middle / junior managerial staff in state structures or enterprises?
                  13. Krasnoyarsk
                    Krasnoyarsk 14 June 2020 14: 39 New
                    -1
                    Quote: Krasnodar

                    So again I ask - are you a representative of the middle / junior managerial staff in state structures or enterprises?

                    I don’t ask how many shops, markets, kiosks, etc. outlets you have. This is not interesting to me. Why are you interested in information that is unnecessary for you about me? Mossad ordered? tongue
                  14. Krasnodar
                    Krasnodar 14 June 2020 14: 45 New
                    +2
                    Yes, Mossad is very interested in the most influential people of the Russian Federation. lol
                    You asked my opinion about your position in society - I replied hi
  • kalibr
    16 June 2020 22: 57 New
    0
    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    In Russia, the people are simple-minded, kind, not vindictive, it is easier to outwit.

    Exactly. Tell the truth - they do not believe, you lie with three boxes - they believe. Beauty live among predictable people!
    1. Krasnoyarsk
      Krasnoyarsk 17 June 2020 08: 17 New
      0
      Quote: kalibr

      Exactly. Tell the truth - they do not believe, you lie with three boxes - they believe. Beauty live among predictable people!

      You really are incompatible. In any case, in the pages of VO. And with your loved ones, maybe true. And here it is necessary to work out the line. And in order to work it out, one has to pervert where, and where to biasedly select facts, thicken events to the grotesque. And, write, write, write.
    2. kalibr
      17 June 2020 13: 44 New
      0
      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
      You really are incompatible. In any case, in the pages of VO.

      Well, it’s only seen in your inflamed brain ... On the contrary, literally every figure, every fact I have my own, moreover, compelling sources. Otherwise, there would have been 40 books and more than 2000 articles in Russia, England, the USA, Australia, Bulgaria, the Czech Republic, Ukraine, Japan ... No one needs stupid lies now and in the age of the Internet it is exposed elementarily.
    3. Krasnoyarsk
      Krasnoyarsk 17 June 2020 14: 18 New
      0
      Quote: kalibr
      No one needs stupid lies now and in the age of the Internet it is exposed elementarily.

      I know your truth. Indeed, too, in different ways you can apply.
      After all, as you write, - (conditionally) at a meeting of the party committee it was reported; 1. that a hospital with 100 beds is unfinished, 2. has not been repaired ..., 3 is not ..., 4 is not ... And that's all And this is true.
      But for some reason, you are not writing that Comrade N was heard on Question 1, and measures were outlined to complete the construction as soon as possible, indicating the date and the person responsible; on Question 2, Comrade K was heard, who reported that the repair would be completed within three days. Etc. For all questions.
      And that the hospital was not completed on time, in accordance with the plan, because there were objective, and sometimes subjective, reasons, and this is also TRUTH, but you are not telling the truth about this gu-gu. That’s all your rotten, stinky truth.
    4. kalibr
      17 June 2020 18: 32 New
      +2
      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
      And that the hospital was not completed on time, in accordance with the plan, because objective, and sometimes subjective, reasons arose

      And there are always reasons. And winter in Russia also always comes unexpectedly. And at first, everyone also lacks masks. There are reasons for everything. But ... ask yourself the question in what percentage are your "objective reasons" and my "subjective" ones. And it turns out that as a result, the USSR collapsed. So there was more negative than positive. That is, there is more "rotten truth" than "fragrant roses." In short, they could not, could not, they drank and plundered ... and this is what I am writing the truth about. And if we could, were able, did not drink and rob, we would still live in the USSR today. Explained easily?
    5. Krasnoyarsk
      Krasnoyarsk 17 June 2020 19: 18 New
      +1
      Quote: kalibr
      In short, they couldn’t, they didn’t succeed, they drank and plundered ... and I’m writing the truth about this.

      Yes, they "drank" and "plundered", only, for some reason the USSR was the second in the world in terms of GDP in the world, when the communists "drank and plundered".
      And as soon as your godbrothers stopped drinking and plundering, then immediately the total GDP of all newly formed states on the territory of the former USSR fell below the plinth. Hundreds of thousands of people you killed, millions deprived of shelter, work, human dignity, education. Why aren’t you writing about this truth? They don’t pay for it?
      Write why drunkards and thieves have been building the aircraft-carrying cruiser "Kiev" for 5 years (laid down in 1970, put into service in 1975), and your great workers have been building a patrol ship for 15 years?
      It was with you, truth-seekers, that for the first time in my life I saw in November, 93, barefoot children begging for alms in an underpass in Moscow.
      Why don’t you write about it? They don’t pay for such truth?
    6. kalibr
      17 June 2020 20: 44 New
      0
      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
      Why aren’t you writing about this truth? They don’t pay for it?
      Write why drunkards and thieves have been building the aircraft-carrying cruiser "Kiev" for 5 years (laid down in 1970, put into service in 1975), and your great workers have been building a patrol ship for 15 years?

      In my opinion, was there material on this in VO? You see, one person cannot write about everything. I am not a specialist in ships, but it’s just not interesting for me to write about anything.
      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
      Hundreds of thousands of people you killed, millions deprived of shelter, work, human dignity, education.
      And do not exaggerate. You do not like a million Gulag, but for some reason you write about millions of homeless people ... I wonder where they all live now? And a link to the document, if not difficult. And about the dignity ... You can not deprive a person of what he was missing from the beginning. I repeat once again, if the% of worthy people in our country were high, then we would still live in the USSR.
    7. Krasnoyarsk
      Krasnoyarsk 17 June 2020 22: 11 New
      +1
      [quote = kalibr I repeat once again, if the% of worthy people in our country would be high, then we [/ quote]
      Where to get them if they were drugged in the 80s by shpakovs, Svanidzians, pozners, gozmans of all stripes and ranks. With a hunchback, you all crawled out of all the cracks like cockroaches and let's bring the "truth". The result is obvious - the collapse of the Union and the 90s blessed by you and cursed by us.
    8. kalibr
      18 June 2020 06: 09 New
      0
      Are you completely dumb or stupid? Or both at the same time? In the 80s, there were no more ardent defenders of the scoop than the teachers of the history of the CPSU Armed Forces and at the same time lecturers of the OK KPSS, RK KPSS and OK Komsomol. And if we have intoxicated people, it is only that "we are all right," and the West is rotting! How many times have already written, cited data on the salary, that no one cuts the goose that lays the golden eggs, that smart soap does not change for an awl. I even cited photocopies of the pages of the lecturer's book, where it was written what people can say and what not. I understand that you would like to believe that ... it was so, but in reality it was different. Under the “hunchback”, the truth was also dosed and given to the people very carefully. I do not know how much you personally lost, but personally I lost a lot with its crash. And to destroy what was obtained with such difficulty ... What do you think I'm an idiot? No need to measure others by yourself! So I would be happy to say that "we also plowed." I cant! Until the 91st I was among the ardent commies, for which, by the way, we were paid ... But I was smart enough to accept the changes. Learn to live among them and turn all their minuses into pluses. And the pluses are effectively used! Well, and worthy and unworthy people did not appear in our country in the 80s, yes, you must understand that too ... But long before these years. And there were millions of them, even when I went to school, I didn't know about any archives, right? And the brigades of the com. Labor then collapsed due to drunkenness and hospitals were built for 8 years, and there were homosexuals in the party, including the participants in the war. So don't talk about the 80s. Everything took shape before them and long ago. And if you don't understand this, then ... it's sad. Not enough, then, any considerations, or education. But I cannot help you with either one or the other.
    9. Krasnoyarsk
      Krasnoyarsk 18 June 2020 10: 35 New
      +1
      Quote: kalibr
      Are you completely dumb or stupid?

      It remains only to repeat -
      Quote: Krasnoyarsk

      Where can they be recruited if they are stupefied in the 80s by Shpakovskys, Svanidzis, Posnars, Gozmans of all stripes and ranks.

      You can also add Korotich with his "Ogonyok" and others of a lesser kind, which I did not memorize as unnecessary.
      Quote: kalibr
      ! Until the 91st was among the ardent commies,

      This is what you say now, for me. In fact, you were a renegade, I have no doubt about that.
      So, do not try to look better than you really are - a renegade and a slanderer.
    10. kalibr
      18 June 2020 10: 56 New
      -1
      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
      In fact, you were a renegade, I have no doubt about that.

      Your stupidity just ... scares me! It is necessary to have such an attic instead of a head that you cannot get through there. Well, how could a lecturer of the RK KPSS, a senior lecturer at the department of history of the CPSU, be a renegade? Who would let him deny? He was paid for carrying out the party's policy to the masses and was paid very well, and he was also allowed to use the regional committee's special clinic, a canteen and a cafeteria of the OK, where common people were not allowed to enter, but for this they demanded ... convincingness in words and right deeds. So ... it was impossible to tell an anti-Soviet anecdote, nor to smile meaningfully, they say, the West is rotting, but how beautiful. This was not forgiven and there was someone and where to report "non-partisan behavior." So it was, why should I lie to you when anyone who was in this system will confirm my words. In the age of the Internet, lying is generally stupid. As for my books and articles, in the 80s they all revolved around children's technical creativity. Open the internet and take a look. Samples of articles from newspapers I also laid out here and they could be read. So do not write nonsense. Then - then yes, I myself worked in the archives, looked at documents that were previously unavailable and saw that yes, indeed, we had a trashy society and there is nothing to be surprised that it collapsed. And to look better in front of people like you - do you seriously think that I care about the opinion of such stupid and narrow-minded people? Yes, not at all, it's just our story, the features of which you just need to know and understand.
    11. Krasnoyarsk
      Krasnoyarsk 18 June 2020 11: 12 New
      +1
      Quote: kalibr
      Well, how could a lecturer of the RK CPSU, a senior lecturer in the department of history of the CPSU, be a renegade? Who would let him swear?

      So the same stupid renegades allowed! Under the "foreman of perestroika" Yakovlev, no one else was kept. Your teacher Volkogonov didn't try in vain.
      The union therefore collapsed. that Shpakov’s stupid mediocrities were at the helm of ideology, they did not understand the essence of Marxism, did not understand, even citing Lenin in their stupid lectures, and were completely unfamiliar with Stalin’s legacy.
    12. kalibr
      18 June 2020 11: 23 New
      -1
      But what about the people? All this accepted, right? Allowed stupid mediocrity to power ... So, he was even dumber. Well, I got what I deserve! On whom water is carried, not in public, but in donkeys. Do you know the legacy of Stalin? Fine! So what barricade are you standing on now and under what banner? And on which stood in the 91st? Or were they waiting for manna to sprinkle directly from heaven and into your mouth? You know, in this whole story with the collapse of the scoop, I feel sorry for only 10 years spent teaching the history of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, that I spent 50% of that time not on what I could and then had to start a lot again and it took another 10 years old. These two numbers - 10 and 50%, decide everything. And so I was always sure that no matter what happens, a good professional will never be poor. Plant him even in the middle of the Sahara, even send him to the Yaranga to the Chukchi, he will always find how to develop for himself a piece of bread with butter and caviar. Well, if you can’t do this, look for the root of the problems in yourself.
    13. The comment was deleted.
    14. kalibr
      18 June 2020 12: 35 New
      -1
      And why all the scoops, as soon as they want someone to get away, go to you? You do not know how, right? You think that is so offensive. No. The opinion of losers is generally not taken into account. And to change, if I believed? Would the USSR not fall apart? It's time for you to understand that no matter what you believe in yourself, it is important to be able to make others believe in it!
    15. Krasnoyarsk
      Krasnoyarsk 18 June 2020 13: 01 New
      +1
      [quote = kalibr It's time for you to understand that no matter what you believe in yourself, it is important to be able to make others believe in it! [/ quote]
      This is the whole essence of your "truth", which you carry to the pages of VO, but in fact you just shit on the country that you call your own today. The situation will change and you will immediately "see clearly", you will say - God, in what gloomy country I lived ?! And you will renounce her, as you renounced yourself before 90, with the words - I received my sight!
      I am satisfied. I still made you open your own rotten soul myself. I am SATISFIED!
    16. kalibr
      18 June 2020 14: 01 New
      -1
      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
      I am satisfied.

      So do I. This is already 300 comments, and many of the previous ones were made with your help. For the umpteenth time I am explaining that whatever you write here does not matter. You only look stupid, because you are like a dog that barks on a pole. She barks, and he stands. And it will stand no matter what revelations you write here. For 6 years of my stay in VO, I just didn’t read it in my address. You are not the first to write such improvisations. But ... nothing changes, right? And it will not change, I assure you. Once again, I am also convinced of the low intellectual and cultural level of the people of your circle, but I am pleased with the fact that, as before, they are very easy to manage, so easy that it’s not even interesting.
  • ccsr
    ccsr 14 June 2020 13: 58 New
    +2
    Quote: Krasnodar
    Now about my unpatriotism towards Russia:
    At the time of moving here for permanent residence, I could afford to live in any developed country in the world

    And why did you decide to come to Mordor and not go to "any developed country in the world"? You also have a "mysterious Russian soul" or simply "Odessa" pragmatism - to tell how good it is everywhere, but to live here and vilify everything related to your new permanent residence. Most of the emigrants from the former USSR suffer from this, we will not be surprised by this. By the way, why did not the historical homeland become a place of permanent residence - what is the catch?
    1. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 14 June 2020 14: 14 New
      +1
      1) Because Russia was the source of income, and there was a child growing up here - when there were three children - he moved to permanent residence laughing
      2) To carry everything connected with Russia? )) Everywhere its advantages and disadvantages, the Russian Federation is not an earthly paradise, but not Mordor
      3) In the historical homeland, where I lived 25 years, I reached a personal peak in earnings. It became crowded and boring, in addition, pragmatism - the country-source of income fell into a financial crisis, in this situation it was logical to live here, in the center of events and with an expanded family.
      More questions? )))
      1. ccsr
        ccsr 14 June 2020 14: 46 New
        0
        Quote: Krasnodar
        More questions?

        Why Russia, not Sweden, Finland or Austria, sausage is fatter there, people are tolerant, and it’s better to live. Or turned out to be unsuitable for those countries, as I understand it - this is the main reason for this somersault?
      2. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar 14 June 2020 15: 03 New
        +1
        Why not professionally suitable - very, very suitable, especially since I already worked with Austria, I was going to buy real estate there laughing Again:
        a) the source of income is the Russian Federation, in a crisis situation it is always worth being in the center of events
        b) the wife of a Russian woman, a child of a Russian, would like to move to Israel, would have done it about 13 years ago)).
      3. ccsr
        ccsr 15 June 2020 19: 19 New
        +1
        Quote: Krasnodar
        Why not professionally suitable - very, very suitable, especially since I already worked with Austria, I was going to buy even real estate there Once again:

        All this is unconvincing. However, I think you yourself do not believe in what you wrote, so look for someone else who will believe in your "life choice".
      4. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar 15 June 2020 19: 47 New
        +2
        laughing
        Your trust will add a lot of money to me and reputation hi
      5. ccsr
        ccsr 16 June 2020 13: 14 New
        +1
        Quote: Krasnodar
        Your trust will add a lot of money to me and reputation

        Well, who else but the Russian man will help the persecuted people?
        Rejoice that we are English ...
      6. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar 16 June 2020 13: 43 New
        +1
        What is wrong with the British? During your attempt to open an account in a London bank, they asked to show the sources of money? lol
  • Sergey S.
    Sergey S. 12 June 2020 10: 41 New
    +4
    Quote: kalibr
    During the Second World War with Spain, the Western powers did not break off relations. And for fascism, Spain was not persecuted.

    1. Western countries do not adorn it. They got it from Hitler because of this ... - Nature avenges unscrupulousness.
    2. Today the fascist nature of Western countries is clearly visible. They support the Nazis in Ukraine ...
    3. The historical result is obvious. Who does not understand this, see news from the USA. The boomerang returned to them what they had prepared for the destruction of competitors. And they got ... That will still be!
  • Revolver
    Revolver 14 June 2020 03: 09 New
    +1
    Quote: kalibr
    Based on the writings of Koltsov and Pavlov? So they are also shot as participants in a fascist conspiracy.

    Koltsov, if not mistaken, was shot for Trotskyism. Not surprisingly, there were several Communist Parties in Spain, the larger Communist Party was Trotskyite, and the Comintern party led by Dolores Ibarruri was much smaller in terms of both size and influence. So communication with the republican leadership was inevitably communication with open Trotskyists, and this, in the USSR, let’s say so, was not welcomed.
    But Pavlov - if this is the tankman, later the army general, and not some other thread, Pavlov got what he deserved. His actions and especially inaction in the last pre-war days and especially the hours, as well as in the early days of the war, made me think about whom he worked for. And this someone was clearly not Stalin. In those years, they shot and for much less.
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 12 June 2020 09: 05 New
    +8
    The descendants of thousands of French Jews who fled to Franco-Spain will disagree.
    1. Liam
      Liam 12 June 2020 09: 16 New
      +6
      Under Mussollini, by the way, there were no death camps either.
      1. Sergey S.
        Sergey S. 12 June 2020 10: 44 New
        +1
        Quote: Liam
        Under Mussollini, by the way, there were no death camps either.

        But people were killed ....
        Although not on a grand scale, as in Germany.
        1. Liam
          Liam 12 June 2020 11: 02 New
          +8
          42 death sentences in 20 years
          1. Sergey S.
            Sergey S. 12 June 2020 11: 26 New
            0
            Quote: Liam
            42 death sentences in 20 years

            But many more died without any trial.
            1. Liam
              Liam 12 June 2020 12: 21 New
              +4
              Quote: Sergey S.
              Quote: Liam
              42 death sentences in 20 years

              But many more died without any trial.

              How many died and in what death camps?
              1. Sergey S.
                Sergey S. 12 June 2020 12: 37 New
                +1
                Quote: Liam
                How many died and in what death camps?

                Mussolini was smarter than Hitler.
                I agree only with that.
                He passed the Jews and Communists to Hitler.
                But from this mercy of Mussolini it was not easier for them.
                1. Liam
                  Liam 12 June 2020 12: 52 New
                  +8
                  I’m afraid that you cannot confirm this statement. You are not aware of the relationship between Mussollini and Hitler, and in general Italy and Germany of that period. As long as Mussollini was in power until 43, he behaved quite independently and despised Hitler on a personal level.
                  1. Sergey S.
                    Sergey S. 12 June 2020 12: 55 New
                    0
                    Quote: Liam
                    I am afraid that you will not be able to confirm this statement.

                    Your statement in general only Mussolini could confirm ...
                    But the people of Italy knew why they hung the executed Mussolini.
                    And this is an exact fact.
                    1. Liam
                      Liam 12 June 2020 13: 23 New
                      +8
                      The people of Italy hanged Mussollini for those 42 death sentences, for usurping power, for destroying rights and freedoms, for drawing the country into war, for their hundreds of thousands of people killed in the war, for the bombing of Italian cities, for the famine in the country, for the horrors of civil the war of 43-45 years, for the German occupation of the center and the north of the country and for the terror that they organized there.
                      And at the gas station in piazzale Loreto, his corpse turned out to be a public shooting of 1944 anti-fascist partisans on his orders in August 15. Although Italians are not particularly proud of this black page of their history with the suspension of corpses.
                    2. Sergey S.
                      Sergey S. 12 June 2020 14: 23 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Liam
                      there was a public execution of 15 anti-fascist partisans on his orders

                      Well, that means there were shootings!
                      And you ask about the Italian fascists in Africa, especially in Ethiopia.
                    3. Liam
                      Liam 12 June 2020 14: 32 New
                      +4
                      In the framework of the civil war of 43/45, partisans shot Nazis and fascist partisans.
                      I said, there were no camps and mass deaths while the Mussollini had full power until 43 years.
                      43/45 years, the republic of bacon is already from another opera. Mussollini was a puppet and the Germans ruled everything
                    4. Sergey S.
                      Sergey S. 12 June 2020 14: 44 New
                      0
                      Quote: Liam
                      ... the republic of bacon is already from another opera. Mussollini was a puppet and the Germans ruled everything

                      "lard or 120 days of sodom" ... and then also "Kitty Salon" ...
                      In something you are right.
                      I would tell you in your place about the relatively good attitude of Italian pilots to the Russian population, compared with the Germans. of course.
                      But fascism does not justify this.
                2. iouris
                  iouris 13 June 2020 12: 38 New
                  0
                  Quote: Liam
                  The people of Italy hung Mussollini

                  Well, it's not that simple. "The people" is a "quasi una fantasy". Specific specialists (specialists in something) are engaged in such things. This tends to simplify matters. And the "people" love simple things.
            2. ccsr
              ccsr 12 June 2020 13: 42 New
              +4
              Quote: Liam
              While Mussollini was in power until the age of 43, he behaved quite independently and despised Hitler on a personal level.

              And it was precisely because of the "hatred" that he sent his troops to help Hitler in the war against Russia - apparently he hated him very much. By the way, Franco refused to send regular units to the Eastern Front, so there is no need to engage in gimmicky when evaluating this or that figure who adhered to fascist views, but gave them different verbal wrapping.
              1. Liam
                Liam 12 June 2020 14: 26 New
                +1
                I understand that in history (and not only) you are not ice. Spain declared itself a neutral country in WWII, and Italy was an ally of Germany and participated in the war. Hitler helped in SevAfrika, Mussolini on the eastern front.
                In Spain, under Franco, by the way, it was not fascism, but hyper-Catholic phalangism. Although I doubt that you will understand
              2. ccsr
                ccsr 12 June 2020 14: 41 New
                -1
                Quote: Liam
                I understand that in history (and not only) you are not ice. Spain has declared itself a neutral country in WWII,

                There is no need for the verbiage "historian" - the sending of volunteers to the Eastern Front, manned, including by regular military personnel, suggests that Spain can be considered "neutral" rather tentatively:
                Nominally considered to be staffed by members of the Spanish Phalanx, the Blue Division was actually a mixture regular soldier Civil War veterans and members of the Phalangist police. It was compiled according to the Spanish canons: four infantry regiments and one artillery.

                Quote: Liam
                In Spain, by the way, Franco was not fascism.

                It doesn't matter what his name was, but he destroyed his ideological opponents no worse than Hitler, because of which a scandal has now arisen, and a decision had to be made to transfer his ashes. So not everyone in Spain has forgotten what this "hyper-Catholic phalangist" was doing, since it came to this after so many years.
              3. Liam
                Liam 12 June 2020 14: 59 New
                +2
                Quote: ccsr
                No matter what he was called, but he destroyed his ideological opponents no worse than Hitler

                If you gather your willpower, remember another country where internal ideological opponents were destroyed with cruelty and on a scale that Franco Mussolini and Hitler did not dream of combined
          2. Krasnoyarsk
            Krasnoyarsk 13 June 2020 14: 35 New
            +1
            Quote: ccsr
            Franco refused to send regular units to the Eastern Front, so there is no need to engage in fine-tuning when evaluating

            And the "Blue Division" sent Franco in three well-known letters and went to the Eastern Front itself. So?
          3. ccsr
            ccsr 13 June 2020 14: 44 New
            0
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            And the "Blue Division" sent Franco in three well-known letters and went to the Eastern Front itself. So?

            This was not a full-time division of the Spanish armed forces, but a bunch of volunteers, so Franco legally did not send regular troops to war with the USSR. Such voluntary formations were formed in other countries, including France, so this was not something unusual.
          4. Krasnoyarsk
            Krasnoyarsk 13 June 2020 15: 51 New
            +2
            I especially liked your classification - "a bunch of volunteers"
            = Not wanting to openly drag Spain into World War II on the side of Hitler and at the same time trying to strengthen the Phalanx regime and ensure the country's security, Francisco Franco took up the position of armed neutrality, giving Germany on the Eastern Front a division of volunteers who wished to fight on the German side against the Soviet Union . De jure Spain maintained =
            Pay attention to the words - "PROVIDING GERMANY"
            "A gathering of volunteers" is - on July 13, 1941, a division, numbering 18 693 people (641 officers, 2272 non-commissioned officers, 15 780 lower ranks.,
            this is the artillery division of the division consisted of four battalions (three batteries each).
            it is an assault battalion, armed mainly with submachine guns.
            this - Of the volunteer pilots, the Blue Squadron (Escuadrillas Azules) was formed, armed with Bf aircraft. 109 and FW-190. At the expense of the pilots of the squadron, 156 downed Soviet planes were recorded.
            it is - The division also included 1 thousand members of the Portuguese legion “under the Spanish flag”.
            Over the entire existence of the division, more than 40 thousand people have passed through its composition (according to other sources and estimates, more than 50 thousand).
            Franco, of course, has nothing to do with it. request

            Quote: ccsr
            troops for the war with the USSR. Such voluntary formations were formed in other countries, including France, so this was not something unusual.

            Yes, but these countries were occupied by Germany. And Spain is not. Do you catch the difference?
          5. ccsr
            ccsr 13 June 2020 16: 35 New
            0
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            Franco, of course, has nothing to do with it.

            I did not say that Franco had nothing to do with it - I just emphasized that he maintained neutrality with respect to the USSR, which is why there were no regular formations from Spain.
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            Yes, but these countries were occupied by Germany. And Spain is not. Do you catch the difference?

            The only difference was that Hitler needed Spanish ports for trade with the United States, which is why he did not drag Franco into allied relations. And he could have done it, as a payment to the Germans for victory in the Civil War.
          6. Revolver
            Revolver 14 June 2020 03: 30 New
            0
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            Yes, but these countries were occupied by Germany. And Spain is not. Do you catch the difference?

            From the Danes, Norwegians, and basically all other Swedes of volunteers, the Viking SS division was formed, and Sweden seemed to be neutral. Well, do not forget the SS division of Galicia.
          7. Krasnoyarsk
            Krasnoyarsk 14 June 2020 11: 20 New
            -1
            Denmark, Norway and Ukraine were occupied. Why are you writing? Show that you know something? So I have no doubt about it.
            hi
            Quote: Nagan

            From the Danes, Norwegians, and basically all other Swedes of volunteers, the SS Viking division was formed, and Sweden seemed to be

            Foreign volunteers fought in the Viking division from, as it was called in Nazi jargon, “racially acceptable peoples” (Flemings, Dutch, Walloons, Danes, Norwegians, Swedes, Estonians and Finns). However, foreigners made up only about 10% of the division’s personnel (1000 out of 11000). The Viking was the first division of the SS troops, which included foreigners.
            And we are talking about the "Blue Division" with 100% Spanish personnel, under the command of SPANISH officers!
  • Revolver
    Revolver 14 June 2020 03: 23 New
    +1
    Quote: Sergey S.
    He passed the Jews and Communists to Hitler.

    And I was reading the memoirs of a Jew who was captured by the Italians and survived. Instead of being handed over to the Germans, he was convoyed with other prisoners to Italy. The Italian camp was, of course, not a resort, but there was nothing like the German POW camps. There were no death camps in Italy at all, from the word "absolutely".
    And he began to transfer to Hitler when the Kingdom of Italy left the war in 1943, and the Germans in northern Italy organized the puppet Italian Socialist Republic led by Mussolini, whom Otto Skorzeny stole from prison.
  • Krasnoyarsk
    Krasnoyarsk 12 June 2020 11: 29 New
    +2
    Quote: Liam
    Under Mussollini, by the way, there were no death camps either.

    What are you surprised at? Mussolini was a fascist and never a Nazi.
    Hitler was a Nazi and never a fascist.
    1. Liam
      Liam 12 June 2020 12: 48 New
      +1
      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
      Quote: Liam
      Under Mussollini, by the way, there were no death camps either.

      What are you surprised at? Mussolini was a fascist and never a Nazi.
      Hitler was a Nazi and never a fascist.

      And what is the difference between fascism and Nazism
      1. kalibr
        12 June 2020 13: 08 New
        +5
        Very big, by the way. But to tell for a long time when there is a Network and Google
        1. Liam
          Liam 12 June 2020 13: 29 New
          +6
          Exactly. It was just that Soviet propaganda leveled and mixed everything. And she had her own motives for doing this.
          W. Eco gives a good description of fascism in his essay Il fascismo eterno. . If you carefully read and compare, it becomes clear why the Soviet propagandists so diligently blabbed everything
          1. kalibr
            12 June 2020 13: 54 New
            0
            Quote: Liam
            If you carefully read and compare, it becomes clear why the Soviet propagandists so diligently blabbed everything

            Exactly! You probably saw here my article about the TRUTH of 1933, where there were just a lot of articles about fascism in Germany ... including theoretical ones!
            1. Liam
              Liam 12 June 2020 14: 22 New
              +1
              I read but did not participate)

              https://www.google.com/amp/s/echo.msk.ru/amp/blog/echomsk/1716012-echo/
              Here is a good translation of this essay
          2. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 12 June 2020 17: 07 New
            +3
            Just the Soviet propaganda leveled and mixed everything.
            Exactly!
            Another striking example: a mixture of the Spanish Inquisition and the Inquisition in general. Thanks to Grigulevich! negative
            1. Liam
              Liam 12 June 2020 18: 30 New
              +2
              Hello)
              The poor Inquisition was also credited with the witch hunt which the Protestants sinned.
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 12 June 2020 19: 07 New
                +1
                My respect, colleague!
                I have written more than once that "inquisito" is a method of inquiry that has replaced the "horde". That it originated in the early 13th century, was developed in the 14th century. That the accusation of "witchcraft" in the early 15th century. was so serious that even in Paris they tried to reduce it to criminal articles ...
    2. vladcub
      vladcub 12 June 2020 21: 06 New
      +1
      Do you want to justify the Nazis?
  • Krasnodar
    Krasnodar 12 June 2020 14: 35 New
    +3
    Quote: Liam
    Under Mussollini, by the way, there were no death camps either.

    Under Mussolini, only 29 political opponents were executed.
    1. Liam
      Liam 12 June 2020 14: 49 New
      +5
      Quote: Krasnodar
      Quote: Liam
      Under Mussollini, by the way, there were no death camps either.

      Under Mussolini, only 29 political opponents were executed.

      To be precise, the special tribunal from 1926 to 1943 considered political cases against 5.619 accused. 4.595 of them were found guilty. 988 were acquitted (a good percentage of those acquitted for the fascist dictatorship)
      The perpetrators were sentenced to a total of 27.752 years of imprisonment, 3 life sentences, 42 death sentences (31 were executed), and with respect to 19, the case was terminated due to the death of the accused.
      1. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar 12 June 2020 15: 14 New
        +2
        Thank you - I remember this figure from an Israeli school))
      2. Astra wild
        Astra wild 12 June 2020 19: 34 New
        +2
        So much for the fascist dictatorship. And if we take his closest follower of Hitler, then the numbers will be completely different.
        Liam colleague, but what about this in Romania and Hungary?
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 12 June 2020 19: 59 New
          +2
          In Bulgaria it was more interesting. The Bulgarians blocked trains transporting Jews to concentration camps. Bulgarian priests lay on the rails in front of the locomotives.
  • vladcub
    vladcub 12 June 2020 15: 45 New
    0
    I don’t know anything about it
  • Jünger
    Jünger 12 June 2020 14: 08 New
    +4
    Quote: Slavutich
    Moscardo is a fascist

    There is nothing wrong with discarding Soviet garbage from this word. A fascist is just a statesman. A man who puts his state at the highest level in the scale of values.
    1. Sergey S.
      Sergey S. 14 June 2020 10: 00 New
      +1
      Quote: Junger
      There is nothing wrong with discarding Soviet garbage from this word. A fascist is just a statesman. A man who puts his state at the highest level in the scale of values.

      Theorists ...
      ... spoke ... spoke ... agreed ...
      There is such a postulate - Theory without practice is dead.
      Practice has shown what fascism is.
      Or will we review the decisions of the Nuremberg Tribunal?
      Or ... no further words ..
      In addition to your semantic twists, you must understand that fascism is a state ideology in which the minority suppresses the majority. In this, for the time being, there was no extreme abomination - this is about Julius Caesar and others like them. They apologized for the fact that both sides tried to take care of Rome. (Now historians will start to peck at me for letting the ancients think about the country). But when personal mercantile interests were included, it was me about capitalism, fascist ideology began to serve exclusively vile interests. And the Nazis themselves became corrupt girls with the rich.
      It was for this reason that Hitler was born a perversion - National Socialism - the essence is the same, and the words are fake of the native people. Not long to deceive a large number of people it turned out ...
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 12 June 2020 11: 12 New
    +6
    My respect, Vyacheslav Olegovich. hi
    Of course, I am not special in the Spanish Civil War, but even to me the comparison of the defense of the Toledo and Brest fortresses seems too bold. smile
    I don’t really want to support the discussion who was “good” and who was “bad” in that war, in general, in my opinion, there are no good and bad in civil wars - all are the same. There is no desire to argue from the standpoint of who was "ours" and who was "not ours" - it is obvious to me that those who fought on Franco's side and then came to fight in the USSR on Hitler's side are not ours. But the fact that you, as the author, saw something in common in the circumstances of the defense of Toledo and Brest fortresses interested me.
    Personally, I see much more differences than similarities.
    Firstly, the number of participants in the defense, the scale of the battle. In Brest, the number of defenders along with civilians was about ten thousand people — ten times more.
    Secondly, it was not the "people's militia" that attacked the Brest Fortress, but the assault units of the Wehrmacht - by far the best army on the planet at that time, in all respects.
    Thirdly, the organized resistance in the Brest Fortress lasted only about a week, all that came later was, in fact, the Germans' attempts to finish off the scattered remnants of the garrison.
    Fourth, the defenders of the Brest Fortress had no connection with the outside world, and they had no hope of liberation - they simply fought to death against a strong, well-organized, trained and superbly equipped enemy, honestly fulfilling their military duty in accordance with the oath.
    1. Undecim
      Undecim 12 June 2020 13: 28 New
      +3
      Comments vividly illustrate the destructive effect of propaganda on the mental apparatus of citizens. It seems that the three traditional types of weapons of mass destruction, nuclear, chemical and bacteriological, can be classified as new - propaganda. It only affects the brain, even for those who have almost none.
      1. kalibr
        12 June 2020 13: 56 New
        -1
        Quote: Undecim
        It only affects the brain, even for those who have almost none.

        I wrote the second article from the cycle about PR and advertising, where it is shown on the examples of our Penza. Soon she will appear. And then there will be material on the examples of Germany and other countries ...
        1. Astra wild
          Astra wild 12 June 2020 19: 25 New
          +2
          Quote: kalibr
          Quote: Undecim
          It only affects the brain, even for those who have almost none.

          I wrote the second article from the cycle about PR and advertising, where it is shown on the examples of our Penza. Soon she will appear. And then there will be material on the examples of Germany and other countries ...

          Vyacheslav Olegovich, I’m not Wang, but I predict: a flurry of emotions and accusations.
          However, from time to time, and on emotions I can speak nasty things.
          1. kalibr
            14 June 2020 20: 39 New
            0
            Quote: Astra wild
            Vyacheslav Olegovich, I’m not Wang, but I predict: a flurry of emotions and accusations.

            Don't care at all!
      2. Astra wild
        Astra wild 12 June 2020 18: 59 New
        0
        Alas, there are a lot of such people
    2. Astra wild
      Astra wild 12 June 2020 19: 18 New
      0
      Mikhail "Trilobite", you caught Vyacheslav Olegovich being too lazy to think, when a person is too lazy to think he resorts to ready-made cliches. We have long established ready-made cliches: if an air ram is a kamikaze, a besieged fortress is a Brest fortress, if Ukraine is about "ready-made horses", etc. If a person makes an effort and turns on the thought process, then he will find other comparisons. So Vyacheslav Olegovich, if he turns on the thought process, he finds interesting comparisons
    3. Krasnoyarsk
      Krasnoyarsk 12 June 2020 21: 44 New
      -1
      Quote: Trilobite Master

      Thirdly, the organized resistance in the Brest Fortress lasted only about a week, all that came later was, in fact, attempts to finish off the Germans

      And this one there, downplaying the feat - you think, just a week! And as many as 10 thousand !!! And only lasted a week. So only trilobites and their owners can brazenly lie. Whether it’s the business of the French, the arrogant Saxons, the mattresses, that’s who the real warriors are, and even the Germans.
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 12 June 2020 22: 59 New
        +3
        Let’s do this: you write where I specifically lied, and if it turns out that you are right, I will publicly in the place indicated by you in VO and at the time indicated by you I acknowledge it.
        If it turns out that the information presented by me is reliable, then at the place indicated by me on the site and at the time indicated by me, you acknowledge that you are not able to read what is written, but see what you think is necessary in the written. Is coming?
        Well, if you refuse or keep silent, you are empty-handed, not ready to answer for your words. And my attitude towards you will be appropriate - as to insignificance.
        I am waiting for an answer a day.
        1. Krasnoyarsk
          Krasnoyarsk 13 June 2020 08: 40 New
          -2
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          I am waiting for an answer a day.

          Who are you to set conditions for me?


          Commander-in-Chief of the Governor-General (Ia): from Combat Journal No. 1

          About the shooting at the North Gate and the capture of the commander

          23.07.1941/23.07/5 In the middle of the day, 1/XNUMX, the [territory] cleaning team was fired from a casemate at the North Gate, the remaining enemies [in the casemate] were shot. XNUMX people were injured. During the subsequent combing of the fortress, another soldier was wounded. One Russian senior lieutenant was taken prisoner.

          [...] 24.07.1941

          [...] As a result of combing the Brest-Litovsk fortress for the presence of surviving enemies, only 7 dead Russians were found [18].
          Pay attention to the date - July 23 !!!
          And this is more than a MONTH !!! But there are facts of battles in AUGUST, too, I can’t bring for unconfirmation.
          So who among us is a jerk?
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 13 June 2020 12: 49 New
            +3
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            So who among us is a jerk?

            It was written to me:
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            organized resistance in the Brest Fortress lasted only about a week, all that was later - already, in fact, the Germans' attempts to finish off the scattered remnants of the garrison.

            You write about German "combing". What is "combing" you need to explain? What is "organized resistance"?
            And before that:
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            So only trilobites and their owners can brazenly lie.

            So where's the blatant lie? Specifically: where and in what?
            Either admit that you do not know how to read and correctly understand the written text, or find and show where my words contain a lie. If neither of these follows, then the insignificance is you. request
            1. Krasnoyarsk
              Krasnoyarsk 13 June 2020 15: 26 New
              -3
              Quote: Trilobite Master
              You write about German "combing".

              1. You probably didn’t notice, but I didn’t write it. I quoted it.
              2. = Organized resistance .... lasted only about a week =
              How much is this? 5 days? 6 days? or 8 days? Maybe 11 days?
              3.
              Quote: Trilobite Master
              all that came later was already, in fact, the Germans' attempts to finish off the scattered remnants of the garrison.

              3.1. "Attempts to finish off" is how? What is an attempt?
              3.2. "To finish off the scattered remnants ..." And, I'm ashamed to ask, did the "scattered remnants" resist?
              How could they resist if they are "not organized"?
              If three fighters survived in a casemate, and the more experienced one says - "Vanya, you take this position, and you, Petya, this one, and I will take that one ...", this will be considered a resistance organization or Did they just go out for a walk?
              = To do something, a person must receive a command. =
              =. happens after some action, the cause of which is the command given =
              Therefore, even if one person is still alive, and he continues to shoot at the enemy, he carries out the order given by the deceased commander. And the order is the ORGANIZATION of the defense of the fortress. Hence the organized defense.
              If you did not know this, then it’s time for you to swap places with trilobite. This is your master trilobite, therefore ka smarter.
              Therefore, the "blatant lie" is removed. This requires a little more brains.
              All that remains is your misunderstanding of what you write and how you write.
              1. Trilobite Master
                Trilobite Master 13 June 2020 22: 26 New
                +4
                Do not pretend to be a holy fool, like you don’t understand anything.
                "Attempts" are, among other things, the very "combing" about which the Germans write, and you quote.
                "Organized resistance" is when opposition to the enemy is carried out under a single leadership. When everyone fights on his own - this is not an organization, but a mess, and this is exactly how things were in the fortress after the fall of the Eastern Fort on June 29 (a week, yes), when the Germans launched a huge land mine there. Separate, scattered and not connected with each other centers of resistance, which were in the fortress right up to August, and maybe even longer, are not signs of organized resistance. It is possible and necessary to understand this even with your powers.
                Will you continue to spin like in a frying pan or will you admit that you don’t understand the written text? smile
                And so, finally.
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                To do something, a person must receive a command.

                Are you here on the team? Well then, if I were your boss, I would have fired you for being stupid. smile
                1. Krasnoyarsk
                  Krasnoyarsk 14 June 2020 11: 07 New
                  -2
                  Quote: Trilobite Master

                  "Organized resistance" is when opposition to the enemy is carried out under a single leadership.

                  I am surprised, but in your, not quite clever head, sometimes clever thoughts flicker. Although, it seems to me, this is not your thought. Where did you read?
                  But back to the thought. Yes, opposition to the enemy is carried out under a single leadership. There is no arguing. In the squad — the squad leader, in the platoon — the platoon commander, and no one else, in the company — the company commander. You will not believe it, but with a lively battalion commander, the regiment does not directly direct the battalion. He only sets the task to the battalion commander, and he sets the task to his com. mouth. And so on downward. In the absence of a superior, the leadership of the battle, defense, and offensive is performed by a subordinate. Weed up to. branches.
                  You probably did not serve in the army and do not understand the essence of the concept - one-man management.
                  Each commander in his area carries out the leadership of the battle
                  Quote: Trilobite Master
                  Separate, fragmented and unrelated hotbeds of resistance that existed in the fortress until August, or maybe longer, are not signs of organized resistance.

                  Is it just because the Supreme was not leading this resistance?
                  By your stupidity you exceeded my wildest expectations.
                  What was the challenge for the defenders of the fortress? - Stay up to your approach. What should be done for this? - 1. Shoot at the enemy, 2. prevent him from capturing one or another part of the defense, 3. inflict possible losses on the enemy.
                  All three orders are communicated to every soldier. What other orders should have come from the "unified leadership"? To whom and how to aim and when to pull the trigger?

                  Quote: Trilobite Master
                  that you don’t understand the written text?

                  That's it. You wrote the TEXT without understanding what you wrote.
                  You, like a marabou bird, fell into the drunkenness, and that which did not fit into you, is carried to the pages of VO. And most do not like this food.
                  A decent person, noticing this, would stop writing.
                  But you for two reasons do not notice it. 1. Your task is this. 2. denyushka is dripping.
                  Quote: Trilobite Master

                  Well then, if I were your boss, I would have fired you for being stupid.

                  No, well, it does. He himself does not know the meaning of the word "organization", but I am stupid. laughing
                  Do not know the ford, do not go into the water!
                  1. Trilobite Master
                    Trilobite Master 14 June 2020 12: 07 New
                    +3
                    Still fooling around? Your right, especially since there is nothing left for you to do. smile
                    I present you in the role of a kind of commander-organizer: "Everyone to fight to the death!" - and go to the rear. "Well, I gave the order, but what else is needed to organize resistance? .."
                    If for you there are separate handfuls of unbroken people, without communication with each other, without supply, without a single command, acting exclusively at your own peril and risk - organized resistance, what can I tell you? If I had a choice before whom to entrust the organization of any simple process - to you or to a male chimpanzee, I would choose a chimpanzee, there would be more sense in him.
                    The most interesting thing is that you yourself understand that you wrote nonsense in that comment, but you continue to dodge and make new nonsense, for which, when the polemic fuse passes, you yourself will be ashamed.
                    But the courage to admit your mistake and apologize is, alas, not given to you.
                    Thinking about the need, while reading something written by another person, to try to understand HIS thought, and not to reproduce your own nonsense on the basis of the "read" you also cannot ...
                    Emotions, unwarranted ambitions, a very average level of intellectual development and education ... How old are you? Fifty? Sixty? Seventy? Plus age-related changes - weakened memory, increased categorization of judgments, intolerance of other people's opinions ... And at the same time, the willingness to anger and dodge, humiliating yourself by writing obvious stupidities, in a deliberately hopeless attempt to preserve at least the illusion of self-esteem ...
                    I even felt sorry for you. That slight irritation and the same hostility that I still felt towards you have been replaced by a sense of pity and contempt.
                    Good luck.
                    1. Krasnoyarsk
                      Krasnoyarsk 14 June 2020 12: 35 New
                      -2
                      Quote: Trilobite Master
                      to stand to the death! "- and to the rear." And what, I gave the order, and what else is needed to organize resistance? .. "

                      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                      experienced, says - "Vanya, you take this position, and you, Petya, this one, and I will take that one ...", this will be considered a resistance organization

                      No comment.
                      Quote: Trilobite Master
                      If I had a choice before whom to entrust the organization of any simple process - to you or to a male chimpanzee, I would choose a chimpanzee, there would be more sense in him.

                      And I had no doubt that you would choose a chimpanzee, and even SAMCA! Because you are at the same stage of intellectual development, well, why the male, well ..., it’s clear here. We will not go into details.
                      Quote: Trilobite Master
                      try to understand HIS thought,

                      Your THOUGHT is simple - to belittle the feat of the defenders of the Brest Fortress and to exalt the "feat" of the defenders of the Alcazar fortress. All. On this Thought ceased to exist. Therefore, they sat in a puddle.
                      Quote: Trilobite Master
                      How old are you? Fifty? Sixty? Seventy? Plus age-related changes - weakened memory, increased

                      You are telling us this here - how do you understand such concepts as "commanding a unit in battle"? And how does it differ from "organized leadership"
                      Learn Russian, ignoramus.
    4. Krasnoyarsk
      Krasnoyarsk 13 June 2020 14: 19 New
      +1
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      in general, in my opinion, in civil wars there are no good and bad - all are the same.

      Even with the goals pursued by the warring parties?
      Someone does not want to remain a slave anymore, but someone wants to make him stay with them and, in your opinion, they are "the same"?
      Right - a giant of thought. fool
  • Operator
    Operator 12 June 2020 12: 16 New
    -2
    The author, at the call of his soul, a CPSU historian, went too far — where is the Civil War in Spain with mutual executions of hostages, cutting out the wounded, desecrating relics, and where is the defense of the Brest Fortress in World War II?

    At the same time, they burned down crypto-Jews (such as Friedland) to the fullest - they are, as always, in the forefront of the provocateurs of civil conflicts (from Russia and Spain to America) bully
    1. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 12 June 2020 14: 41 New
      +1
      Quote: Operator
      The author, at the call of his soul, a CPSU historian, went too far — where is the Civil War in Spain with mutual executions of hostages, cutting out the wounded, desecrating relics, and where is the defense of the Brest Fortress in World War II?

      At the same time, they burned down crypto-Jews (such as Friedland) to the fullest - they are, as always, in the forefront of the provocateurs of civil conflicts (from Russia and Spain to America) bully

      Yeah. In the forefront of 50 thousand German Jews saboteurs, led by rabbis from the Levitic and Cohen clan, who are Black Sea arias lol
      1. Krasnoyarsk
        Krasnoyarsk 12 June 2020 21: 48 New
        -2
        Quote: Krasnodar

        Yeah. In the forefront of 50 thousand German Jews saboteurs, led by rabbis from the Levitic and Cohen clan, who are Black Sea arias

        Nah. These rabbis personally led their flock to be shot in the Baltic states in 41-42
  • Undecim
    Undecim 12 June 2020 12: 26 New
    +6
    The result of his career was the honorary post of chancellor of the imperial order “Yarmo and Arrows”, established by Franco and named after the ancient symbols of Castile and Aragon.
    Small clarification. Yoke and arrows are not ancient symbols of Castile and Aragon. The yoke is the heraldic symbol of Ferdinand II of Aragon, and the bunch of arrows and the Gordian knot is Isabella I of Castile. Their unification symbolizes the creation of the Spanish Empire.
    A bunch of arrows and a yoke were adopted as a symbol of the Spanish Phalanx.
  • bubalik
    bubalik 12 June 2020 13: 20 New
    +7
    they made a sortie to a neighboring granary and managed to get as many as two thousand bags of grain there
    ,,, or the siege was request such a "siege" or a beautiful fairy tale. Let the bag average 50kg, did they drag 100 tons at night? belay
    For some reason, on a lame flea from that shore of the sea that the hare cannot fly over, the eagle cannot cross, even though the sea is not the sea, and so, a puddle in the middle of the city, where the shadow of the flea on the hare fell and killed to death, and the sheepskin coat came out of the hare and went wherever eyes look, and then the hare will jump! ..(C) laughing
    1. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 12 June 2020 13: 34 New
      +2
      Which hare? smile
      1. bubalik
        bubalik 12 June 2020 13: 37 New
        +3
        ,,, repeat? Well, that means the same flea from the other side of the puddle ... winked
    2. kalibr
      12 June 2020 13: 58 New
      +1
      Quote: bubalik
      ,,, or the siege was such a "siege" or a beautiful fairy tale. Let the bag average 50kg, did they drag 100 tons at night?

      Why bought, then sold. It surprised me myself. But what can I do? I can only convey what is written in English and Spanish ... Well ... maybe several trucks loaded ...
      1. bubalik
        bubalik 12 June 2020 14: 10 New
        +4
        Well ... maybe several trucks loaded ...
        ,,, so I say means such a "siege" was.
        1. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 12 June 2020 14: 42 New
          +5
          Changed for gold or ammunition - in civil wars this is practiced))
          1. bubalik
            bubalik 12 June 2020 14: 52 New
            +3
            ,,,so, recourse they got the grain (fantastically of course in such volumes), they ate the horses. And where was the water taken? request
            1. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar 12 June 2020 15: 15 New
              +4
              Wells, most likely
          2. Liam
            Liam 12 June 2020 19: 10 New
            +8
            In that sortie, on a tip from a peasant, they took 25 bags of 90 kg. On mules and a horse that were in the fortress. It must be understood that a considerable part of the population sympathized with them and helped them, including food. Many "sorties" were just going to the house and took away the food that the residents had prepared and collected. Yes, and among the besieging military they had many secret and open sympathizers. They were from the same army, colleagues and friends until that moment. And the shooting of the colonel's son and the shooting of priests and political opponents did not add support to the Republicans from the population
            1. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 12 June 2020 22: 49 New
              0
              Quote: Liam
              25 bags of 90 kg.

              Heavy bags, however. I have never seen such, and have not heard about them.
              1. Liam
                Liam 12 June 2020 23: 17 New
                +2
                Quote: mordvin xnumx
                Quote: Liam
                25 bags of 90 kg.

                Heavy bags, however. I have never seen such, and have not heard about them.

                In my childhood, the collective farm used the so-called Cuban bags. Per 100 kg
                1. Mordvin 3
                  Mordvin 3 12 June 2020 23: 18 New
                  0
                  Quote: Liam
                  Cuban bags. per 100 kg

                  Have not met. request
      2. Krasnoyarsk
        Krasnoyarsk 12 June 2020 21: 53 New
        0
        Quote: kalibr

        Why bought, then sold. It surprised me myself. But what can I do? I can only convey what is written in English and Spanish ... Well ... maybe several trucks loaded ...

        Those. all your fables from the category - OBS? I always talked about this. But many here admired, and now continue to admire. Naive.
        Wherever you write, you drag everything here? A people hawala.
  • Jünger
    Jünger 12 June 2020 13: 57 New
    -1
    An interesting article about events little known to me.
    In the photo, fighters of the republican militia who pulled out the remains of monks from the tombs of the Toledo churches desecrated by them

    Here is a beast sitting on our neck for 70 years. Franco is a great fellow that chopped off scum hands.
    1. kalibr
      12 June 2020 14: 23 New
      0
      Quote: Junger
      Here is a beast sitting on our neck for 70 years. Franco is a great fellow that chopped off scum hands.

      You, of course, put it a little rudely, Paphnutius, but ... on the whole, very true. But we had the same thing without Franco. If I'm not mistaken, 40000 security officers "chopped off" their own hands ... I won't talk about Beria ... But about another minister ... Pavel Sudoplatov in his book "Special Operations" recalled Abakumov:
      "... He continued to completely deny the charges against him even under torture," confessions "from him were never obtained. ... he behaved like a real man with a strong will ... He had to endure incredible suffering (he spent three months in the refrigerator in shackles), but he found the strength not to submit to the executioners. He fought for life, categorically denying the “conspiracy of doctors.” Thanks to his firmness and courage in March and April 1953, it became possible to quickly release all those arrested involved in the so-called conspiracy, since it was Abakumov who was charged with to blame that he was their leader. " And nevertheless, already in 1954 he was shot anyway ... Three NKVD people's commissars, a minister ... "The revolution is devouring its children" - it was not without reason that Georges Jacques Danton said. So it was with them, with us, in Spain - everywhere!
      1. vladcub
        vladcub 12 June 2020 21: 00 New
        +2
        VO, out of harm,: "The revolution is devouring its children," said Danton not.
        The author of this aphorism, Vernier, is the leader of the Girondins. Before his execution, he said: "revolution like the god Saturn devours his children."
        Danton said to the executioner in front of Kazan: "do not forget to show the crowd my head ... it's worth it."
      2. Jünger
        Jünger 12 June 2020 22: 30 New
        +1
        Quote: kalibr
        But we had the same without Franco.

        We criminals killed criminals. But the root of crime was never condemned and uprooted. From here we have problems to this day.
    2. Pilat2009
      Pilat2009 12 June 2020 21: 26 New
      +1
      Quote: Junger
      Franco is a great fellow that chopped off scum hands.

      You are interested to take an interest in how many casualties there were. Maybe Pinochet is also well done? Chileans and Spaniards should be asked about this and not from outside to comment
      1. Jünger
        Jünger 12 June 2020 22: 25 New
        +1
        Quote: Pilat2009
        Maybe Pinochet is also well done

        I was not particularly interested in this topic, but if Alendo also nailed priests to the doors of churches, then, perhaps, Pinochet is a positive character. But, I repeat, I was not interested and not sure.
        But I am definitely sure who the characters are purely negative - these are the Communists and any leftist idiots. Visual evidence is the photograph presented.
        Quote: Pilat2009
        Chileans and Spaniards should be asked about this and not comment

        As fans of the Bolsheviks like to say here on the site, since they won, they were supported by the people. So - since Franco and Pinochet went into the ladies, it means that the peoples have spoken their word.
        There is no one to ask, the modern representatives of any people are not at all identical to their grandfathers and fathers. The mentality is not the same.
  • bubalik
    bubalik 12 June 2020 15: 04 New
    +4
    ,,, besieging all that was not enough: heavy artillery, flamethrowers, attack aircraft, sappers and organization. repeat
    1. hjvtp1966
      hjvtp1966 14 June 2020 21: 33 New
      +1
      Rather, in the reverse order ... laughing
  • bubalik
    bubalik 12 June 2020 15: 06 New
    +3
    Dad, they say that if you don’t surrender the Alcazar, they will shoot me.
    “What to do, son.” Depend on the will of God. I can’t surrender the Alcazar and betray everyone who has trusted me here. Die worthy of a Christian and a Spaniard


    "I don’t change a soldier for field marshals"
    1. Astra wild
      Astra wild 12 June 2020 18: 36 New
      +2
      Words from the film Ozerov: "Liberation". As a child, when I watched this film, I cried.
      Soviet films about WWII did not leave anyone indifferent, and the current tapes of WWII are relatively good, there is an outright lie, they do not touch the soul.
    2. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 12 June 2020 18: 52 New
      +2
      The only prisoner I would exchange for Paulus is the leader of the German Communists Ernst Thalmann
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 12 June 2020 20: 32 New
        +2
        Hmmm, an interesting statement! And why is Telman so pretty for you that you are ready to exchange him for one of the best Wehrmacht staff?
        1. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 12 June 2020 20: 34 New
          0
          This is not for me, this is also attributed to Stalin on the proposal to exchange his son for field marshal
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 12 June 2020 20: 40 New
            +2
            Damn, for such "experiences" in the Russian language there are brackets, quotes and other punctuation marks!
            1. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar 12 June 2020 20: 50 New
              +2
              So I have education - 3 classes, 5 corridors laughing
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 12 June 2020 21: 17 New
                +3
                Somehow a lot, for a person who speaks three languages, one more at the "street" level, another at the business level ....
                Did I forget something?
                Oh yes! You still swear in all the languages ​​of the North Caucasus and express your readiness to learn Swahili! laughing
                1. Krasnodar
                  Krasnodar 13 June 2020 07: 46 New
                  0
                  Quote: 3x3zsave
                  Somehow a lot, for a person who speaks three languages, one more at the "street" level, another at the business level ....
                  Did I forget something?
                  Oh yes! You still swear in all the languages ​​of the North Caucasus and express your readiness to learn Swahili! laughing

                  Mats in all 120 languages ​​of the North Caucasus?
              2. Astra wild
                Astra wild 12 June 2020 21: 30 New
                +1
                Wow 5 corridors! Ordinary people have 1 corridor
      2. vladcub
        vladcub 12 June 2020 20: 52 New
        +3
        It is a pity that Stalin was not familiar with you, perhaps he obeyed the advice?
        1. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 12 June 2020 20: 52 New
          +1
          This phrase is attributed to Stalin himself.
          1. Liam
            Liam 12 June 2020 21: 00 New
            +2
            This is naturally a fake. In addition, Stalin despised Vasya’s son, so he wouldn’t give a captain for him, not even a field marshal
            1. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar 12 June 2020 21: 01 New
              +4
              This was said about son Yasha. Allegedly.
              1. Liam
                Liam 12 June 2020 21: 07 New
                +3
                I, too, about Jacob. By mistake, Vasya wrote. On the contrary, he loved Vasily. To the extent that such feelings were available to this person
            2. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 12 June 2020 21: 24 New
              +2
              And where does Vasily Stalin, if we are talking about Jacob Dzhugashvilli?
              1. bubalik
                bubalik 12 June 2020 21: 28 New
                +3
                ,,, how can it be without official media at that time? fellow


              2. Liam
                Liam 12 June 2020 21: 29 New
                +4
                I mistakenly wrote Vasya instead of Jacob. He despised Jacob, to say the least
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 12 June 2020 21: 42 New
                  +4
                  We cannot judge this. The parental feelings of great politicians for their own children are something other than the "third basic instinct."
                  1. hjvtp1966
                    hjvtp1966 14 June 2020 21: 40 New
                    0
                    https://www.anekdot.ru/id/893421/: - Может вы антисемит? Евреев не любите?
                    - I am an internationalist! I do not like anyone!
  • vladcub
    vladcub 12 June 2020 15: 08 New
    +5
    Quote: Liam
    Quote: Leader of the Redskins
    Honest, noble

    In civil wars, honest and noble ones are always few. Atrocities and cruelties prevail and the Spanish war is no exception. Republicans also committed atrocities unworthy of normal people, especially against the church, which set up the majority of the Spanish people who were very religious.

    Quite right: in a civil war: "there are no white and fluffy". There may be filthy scum and relatively decent
  • vladcub
    vladcub 12 June 2020 15: 32 New
    +1
    Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Yes - Fascist!
    But everything is known in comparison !!! Someone else's valor and firmness must be respected.

    You can’t argue with that
  • bubalik
    bubalik 12 June 2020 17: 21 New
    +2
    In 1939 he was already a division general, and then a lieutenant general. He was president of the Olympic Committee of Spain and a member of parliament. The result of his career was the honorary post of chancellor of the imperial order “Yarmo and Arrows”, established by Franco and named after the ancient symbols of Castile and Aragon.

    In 1948, in recognition of his services to the country, Franco awarded Moscardo the title of Count Alcazar de Toledo, which automatically made him a Spanish grand. Well, in 1972 this title was already received by his grandson Jose Luis Moscardo y Morales-Vara del Re
    ,,, and such a gap? In World War II, what was he doing?
    1. Comrade Michael
      Comrade Michael 14 June 2020 10: 46 New
      +1
      He fought in Russia ...
  • ser56
    ser56 12 June 2020 18: 16 New
    +4
    Thanks to the author - an interesting article! Toledo was an interesting city ...
  • Astra wild
    Astra wild 12 June 2020 18: 20 New
    +4
    Vyacheslav Olegovich, I have a few comments: 1) a colonel in a cap, and not a small one, but generals in caps.
    2) what does the script snapshot have to do with the siege of Alcatraz? Along the way, another remark: "republican militia" is a loose concept: both anarchists and socialists and "bass nationalists", and these are completely different formations and different idials.
    3) "to shoot at him and the rebels who have settled there right in front of the cameras" and the photographs are given: "defenders of Alcatraz" and "guarding the front-line airfield" - Are you not attentive?
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 12 June 2020 23: 56 New
      +5
      My Beautiful Stranger!
      Do not confuse Alcazar and Alcatraz
      1. Astra wild
        Astra wild 16 June 2020 18: 03 New
        +1
        You are right, then I saw it myself, but it's too late to fix
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 16 June 2020 18: 37 New
          +1
          Everything is fine, my Beautiful Stranger! Everyone is wrong, even God.
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 12 June 2020 18: 24 New
    +2
    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
    I would like to note that any commentator would be nice to know, at least "in the axes" the history of Spain, and the mentality of the peoples inhabiting it, and not be guided by the textbooks of "modern history" published in the early 70s.
    1. kalibr
      14 June 2020 20: 48 New
      +1
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
      I would like to note that any commentator would be nice to know, at least "in the axes" the history of Spain, and the mentality of the peoples inhabiting it, and not be guided by the textbooks of "modern history" published in the early 70s.

      ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 14 June 2020 21: 17 New
        +2
        Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich! Simply, I do not like militant imbeciles.
  • vladcub
    vladcub 12 June 2020 20: 41 New
    0
    Quote: Olgovich

    sergo1914

    Perhaps, on the "automatic" he continued his service .. He could think something like this: "The king is no longer there, but there is Spain and I serve her"
  • bamu
    bamu 12 June 2020 20: 44 New
    +1
    Thanks, very interesting.
  • Normal ok
    Normal ok 12 June 2020 21: 08 New
    -5
    Well, for many Republicans, the Alcazar has become a kind of place ... leisure. Journalists were brought here to show them how the war was going on, and the prominent Republicans themselves did not deny themselves the pleasure of shooting at the rebels who had settled in it right in front of the cameras.

    It looks like modern Donbass, where all sorts of Porechenkovs went to PR for someone else's blood.
    PS, "Nothing is new under the moon." Karamzin.
  • Astra wild
    Astra wild 12 June 2020 21: 25 New
    +1
    Quote: 3x3zsave
    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
    I would like to note that any commentator would be nice to know, at least "in the axes" the history of Spain, and the mentality of the peoples inhabiting it, and not be guided by the textbooks of "modern history" published in the early 70s.

    Not in "my pebble garden"?
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 12 June 2020 21: 59 New
      +2
      You are dubious, my Beautiful Stranger! And your assumptions are insulting! Do you really think that I can throw a stone at a woman ???
  • Astra wild
    Astra wild 12 June 2020 21: 26 New
    +2
    Quote: Normal ok
    Well, for many Republicans, the Alcazar has become a kind of place ... leisure. Journalists were brought here to show them how the war was going on, and the prominent Republicans themselves did not deny themselves the pleasure of shooting at the rebels who had settled in it right in front of the cameras.

    It looks like modern Donbass, where all sorts of Porechenkovs went to PR for someone else's blood.
    PS, "Nothing is new under the moon." Karamzin.

    I thought these were Shakespeare's words.
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 12 June 2020 21: 34 New
      +2
      You can recall the Ecclesiastes. Someone can dig deeper.
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 12 June 2020 22: 01 New
        +3
        I’ll get to the bottom.
        "Everything will pass" (C)
        1. Liam
          Liam 12 June 2020 23: 05 New
          +3
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          Everything will pass "(C

          But the traces will remain
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 12 June 2020 23: 12 New
            +3
            Another legend says that on the inside of the ring it was inscribed: "This too will pass."
          2. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 12 June 2020 23: 14 New
            +1
            Quote: Liam
            But the traces will remain

            The holiday is over. In this presentation
            The actors, I said, were perfumes.
            And in the air, and in the clear air,
            Having completed their work, they melted. -
            So like ghosts without flesh
            Someday melt like smoke
            And the clouds crowned mountains
            And the proud palaces and temples,
            And even the whole - oh yes, the whole globe of the earth.
            And as from these disembodied masks,
            They will not survive a trace.
            We are made of the same substance
            What are our dreams. And surrounded by sleep
            Our whole little life ...

            Our William, Shakespeare.
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 12 June 2020 23: 26 New
              +3
              "There is no sleep, no awakening,
              Only rustles around
              Just burns the touch
              Nervous fingers, tender lips "
              E. Shklyarsky
    2. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 12 June 2020 23: 48 New
      +2
      Very often, Shakespeare is credited with authorship of various aphorisms, for example:
      "The Moor has done his job, the Moor can go." This is Schiller, "The Fiesco Conspiracy in Genoa"
  • Kosh
    Kosh 13 June 2020 15: 04 New
    +5
    In general, it is very unfortunate that these friends of the Nazis and Nazis were not killed in this castle.
  • UrraletZ
    UrraletZ 13 June 2020 20: 09 New
    +1
    Author, die your lying whiteness ...
    1. kalibr
      14 June 2020 20: 51 New
      -1
      Andrey, for a start, sit down to write on VO, forget the appeal "you". Available?
      1. UrraletZ
        UrraletZ 19 June 2020 09: 21 New
        0
        Why aren’t you immediately heroizing Hitler?
        1. kalibr
          19 June 2020 12: 40 New
          0
          And you, Andrei, know his worthy deeds? Share information ... And once again, did you happen to make a mistake on the site? It is not customary to poke strangers here.
  • Comrade Michael
    Comrade Michael 14 June 2020 10: 34 New
    +2
    What modern Russia has become for fascists? Let me remind you that ours were on the side of the Republicans. And these fascist heroes later joined the "blue division" ... Enough to crawl under all the Nazis, if they fought with the Reds. Let me remind you that our grandfathers were red, red republicans. And the Nazis killed ours. And then they fought against us on the territory of Russia. And the fact that they are supposedly against the communists is a lie. They are against us, they have always invented an excuse to kill us without hesitation and pity .... We are still red in our souls, in the majority ... Some of the children of the red and the poor have fled, but the bulk are not.
    1. kalibr
      17 June 2020 13: 49 New
      0
      Quote: Comrade Mikhail
      We are still red in the shower, most ..

      And UO too!
    2. Slug_BDMP
      Slug_BDMP 21 June 2020 17: 21 New
      0
      Here is a rather interesting lecture on the blue division:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugavGR1NjJk
      Everything is not so simple here. For Franco, "GD" was an opportunity to dispose of the Phalangists who did not fit into a peaceful life. Former Republicans also joined it. One to surrender to the red. Others - in order to deserve forgiveness from the new government.
  • The comment was deleted.
    1. kalibr
      14 June 2020 20: 53 New
      -1
      Quote: Uncle Vasya
      if it was a fascist rebellion

      Learn the story ...
  • Slug_BDMP
    Slug_BDMP 21 June 2020 10: 38 New
    0
    Wow, neither in the article, nor in the comments, no one remembered the "widely known in narrow circles" poem:
    "... Long live OUR Toledo!
    Long live OUR Alcazar! ... "