The cost of Mistral and UDC domestic construction: analysis


Recently, an article by S. Yuferev “Twice as expensive as the Mistral.” Two universal landing ships for the Russian Navy ", in which the respected author came to the conclusion that the UDC planned for the bookmark will cost our the fleet more expensive than Mistrals ordered in France. Although not doubled, about 10% percent, approximately, but still.


Let's try to understand the comparative cost of Mistral and new domestic UDC.

Two words about inflation


The logic of S. Yuferev is very simple. With a contract value of 1,2 billion euros, the acquisition of Mistral cost us approximately 49 billion rubles, while today the estimated cost of the contract for 2 UDCs, which are planned to be built on the Black Sea Gulf, is 100 billion rubles. That’s the double difference! True, the author immediately makes a fairly fair reservation about changing the ruble against the euro and makes a new calculation. At the average rate for 2020, it turns out that our UDCs cost 1,317 billion euros, which is still more expensive than the contract for the supply of French ships.

Everything seems to be true, but, unfortunately, the author missed one very important point. The fact is that not only the ruble, but also the euro was subject to inflation.

The fact is that inflation is an integral feature of a market economy. Moreover, its small size is considered an unconditional good, as it does not allow money to “stagnate” and makes them “work”. The logic here is very simple: if there is no inflation at all, you can put money in a stocking and keep it there for as long as you want. Nothing will happen to them. But if there is at least slight inflation, then the purchasing power of money will be slowly lost. That is, over time, the money from the stocking will turn out to buy less and less goods. This, according to the logic of a market economy, will force you not to store money in a stocking, but to invest it, or at least put it in a bank that will do it for you.

So, the euro is subject to inflation. The transaction with Mistral was concluded by the Russian Federation in June 2011, and then it cost 1,2 billion euros. But what would happen if the Russian Federation tried to conclude a similar deal now? The inflation calculator shows that the purchasing power of the euro from June 2011 to December 2019 (alas, you can’t find out for today) has decreased significantly: today you could buy as many goods as 1000 euros as needed in June 2011 spend only 900,32 euros. Thus, if we concluded a deal on Mistral in December 2019, then two French UDCs would cost us 1332,9 million euros. And if we concluded this deal right now, it would be even more expensive, because for the period from December 2019 to May 2020, the euro inflation did not sit still.

At the same time, a contract for two UDCs of domestic construction was signed in May 2020, that is, when the value of the euro reached 80 rubles. At the exchange rate on May 27 (77,79 rubles / euro), the value of the contract is 1285,5 million euros. But even if we take it at the average rate for 2020, which on the same May 27 amounted to 75,95 rubles / euro, then in this case 100 billion rubles. will amount to 1316,7 million euros. In fact, UDCs are even cheaper - the fact is that the contract for their construction did not cost 100 billion rubles. and in the amount of "about 100 billion rubles."

That is, in comparable prices, UDCs of domestic production definitely cost us cheaper than French ones. But the numbers are still comparable - the difference we calculated is on the strength of interest, if not their share. Why so, because domestic salaries and prices for raw materials are not French at all?

Size matters!


UDC “Mistral” has a standard displacement of 16 tons and a total displacement of 500 tons. Unfortunately, the displacement of domestic UDCs is unknown: on the frames of the Zvezda TV channel, alas, they will not be considered.


But it is indisputable that our ships will be much heavier than the French, and that's why.

It is known that our UDC have a large landing capacity - up to 1 marines and up to 000 units. technology against 75 and 900 at UDC "Mistral". Unofficial sources have repeatedly given information that the standard displacement of the UDC planned for laying on the Black Sea will be 60 tons. Perhaps this is not so: the figure is suspiciously similar to walking in the network of technical characteristics of the universal landing ship “Surf” developed by the Krylovsky State Scientific Center (KSCC). At the same time, it is known that UDK will be built in the Gulf according to the project of another developer - Zelenodolsk Design Bureau. Nevertheless, the author of this article assumes that the standard displacement of our UDC will indeed significantly exceed 25 tons and will approach 000 tons. Here's the thing.

Firstly, as mentioned above, our UDC is more capacious. Secondly, the Mistrals were built according to the canon of civil shipbuilding, which our military would hardly have done, designing the UDC from scratch. It can be assumed that the underwater protection of domestic ships is much more powerful than that of the Mistral. The increased width of our ship, relative to its French “colleague”, also hints at this. Thirdly, the Mistral developed a maximum speed of 19 knots, and it is very doubtful that our Navy would arrange such speed in a new project. The same "Surf" had 22 nodes. A high speed, and even with an increased width, obviously requires a much more powerful power plant. Fourthly, we recall that the Surf, apparently taking into account the wishes of the sailors, just meant transporting up to 1000 paratroopers and up to 75 pieces of equipment, but it had a standard displacement of 25 tons.

Finally, the most approximate estimates show that if the Mistral, with a length of 199 m, a hull width of 32 m and a total displacement of 21 t, has a draft of 300 m, then a domestic ship with its 6,3 m length, 204 m wide and draft It will have 38 m with more or less similar contours and even a lower fullness factor of no less than 7,5-28 thousand tons! Which, again, is very close to the UDC "Surf" indicator, which has a total displacement of 30 tons.


Thus, we are probably not too mistaken in assuming that the UDC planned for laying will have a standard displacement of 23-25 ​​thousand tons and a total displacement of 26-28 thousand tons. But this means that domestic universal landing ships will be at least 40% heavier than the Mistral!

But that is not all


Of course, as the respected S. Yuferev writes, we must not forget about the composition of the armament and on-board equipment that our new UDC will receive. The same "Surf" was supposed to be equipped with three ZRAK "Broadsword" and two "Armor-ME". The author does not know exactly what the new UDC will be armed with, but this should be taken into account.

The contract on the Mistral assumed their equipment with domestic weapons. In other words, in the amount of 1,2 billion euros of the cost of the contract concluded in June 2011, the cost of these weapons and a number of systems (such as communication systems) was simply not included - after all, domestic enterprises had to manufacture and deliver them. But in the case of the UDC, which will be built on the Black Sea, this cost is obviously taken into account: the “Gulf” will acquire armament and install it on ships, and of course, this will be paid by the RF Ministry of Defense, which means that it fell into the cost of the contract.

There is one more important aspect. World practice in the construction of warships shows that the lead ship is always more expensive than the serial one. So, the construction of the Mistral was put on stream by the French, and the French UDC built for the Russian Navy, although they had some design differences, were essentially serial ships. In our case, the Gulf will build one head and one serial UDC, which, obviously, should cost more.

conclusions


It can be assumed that by concluding a contract in the amount of "about 100 billion rubles." For the construction of two UDCs, the Russian Navy will receive two ships, almost one and a half times heavier than it could order in France. Moreover, with weapons already included in the price of the contract, and not without it, as in the case of orders abroad. And it will cost about the same amount and even a little cheaper, despite the fact that the ships will be built according to a new project, and not according to proven serial technology.
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  1. tlauicol 1 June 2020 04: 53 New
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    Optimistic painted. Just do not be afraid to put the calf against the egg, that our managers will not fit into any 100bn. And they will not fit into 300 billion. It’s better not to say anything about deadlines and quality ...
    1. Uncle lee 1 June 2020 05: 28 New
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      Quote: Tlauicol
      About deadlines and quality

      "Do not put salt on my wound"....
      1. The leader of the Redskins 1 June 2020 06: 46 New
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        I heard an expression
        "To share the skin of a dead bear ..."
        And here already hang on this skin and the price tag?
        1. Tatyana 1 June 2020 15: 52 New
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          I will add the following to the analysis of the author of the article.

          The advantages of Russian UDC under construction compared to Mistral The functional improvement of the design of such helicopter-carrying landing ships with landing on the shore also applies. Namely.

          The design of the Russian UDC under construction provides for the hinged nose of the ship to simplify the tasks of landing directly on a dry surface, and not on water. What the “Mistral” doesn't have.
          And this improvement in the design of the Russian landing ship - compared with the French Mistrals - is also worth a lot!
          1. TermNachTer 1 June 2020 16: 42 New
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            Among other things. A huge plus - Russian factories, workers, taxes and taxes to the budget of Russia work. There is no dependence on such a "dumb" supplier like France.
            1. Ross xnumx 2 June 2020 05: 45 New
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              Quote: TermNachTER
              A huge plus - Russian factories, workers, taxes go to the budget of Russia.

              On the example of Rosneft and Gazprom, do you need to prove anything? Didn’t get rid of taxes that “hit” the country (or offshore?)?
              Quote: NEOZ
              the road will be overpowered, not aching!

              The road is overpowered by the walker, and not by zeroing and always projecting. Enough for us thirty years of tales about our bright "the day after tomorrow" ...
              The displacement of domestic UDC, unfortunately, is unknown: on the frames of the Zvezda TV channel, alas, they cannot be considered.

              Here, from which side to look. And in an estimate:

              about 23 tons.
              Dear Andrey! Are you from the Urals? You talk so bravely about the benefits of domestic shipbuilding and its economic benefits that you take the hell out of the uprising "villains" and "gods" who put their clumsy sticks into the wheels of Russian progress and elsewhere.
              Tell me, the issue of power plants (power units) for this project has been resolved or will everything be the same as with the Su-57? belay
              You have so nicely told us about inflation and cost indicators in a given period of time that you can only hope that there will be no situation similar to electronics, when you gave apartments and cars for VCRs and color TVs, and then in this junk “we looted ".
              But the main and most important thing is not here.
              “CRAGNY MISTRALS” WERE READY AND RESOLD TO EGYPT IN 2015. AT THE YARD IN THE MIDDLE OF 2020, AND YOU WITH YOUR URAL naivete convince us that Zelenodolsky ideas are the apotheosis of the achievements of the Russian shipbuilding industry.
              In other words, you want to say that the “French tit” is in the hands, worse at times of the “Putin Siberian Crane” (or whose “crane”? Who will warm his hands on the implementation of the next project and defense order?) In the sky ... wassat
              Remember the words of the song: “We are born to make a fairy tale come true”?
              And your song:
              “Zero to make plans dust!”
              All for you, bye ...
              1. TermNachTer 2 June 2020 15: 21 New
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                Do you think everything is so bad in Russia? Come to Ukraine, in a couple of weeks, Russia will be like New Year to you, and Putin, the best president in the world.
                1. Akuzenka 2 June 2020 15: 48 New
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                  You know, we do not live in Ukraine. And about the bad: you can not imagine how much. It’s just that in Russia it has become more difficult to “distribute cookies,” because the liberals are quietly sitting.
                  1. TermNachTer 2 June 2020 15: 53 New
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                    So bad? And you do not want to live on a pension of 1800 grivnas, despite the fact that the average housing and communal services payment for a kopeck piece in the winter is 2500 grivnas. How much is the minimum pension in Russia and how much do we pay for the apartment?
                    1. 2 Level Advisor 3 June 2020 15: 47 New
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                      I have in winter the total payment for an apartment with heating ~ 12500 ..
                      and anticipating the offers of exchanging a senior citizen for 1 piece ..:
                      In 1 - a pensioner in our country, cannot support, it turns out 3k apartment ..
                      In 2 - 1k apartment - 9000 contents ..
                      The minimum pension in the region is 8200 ..
                      Well, now the namesake, compare the magnitude of the power of Russian pensioners to Ukrainian.
                      1. TermNachTer 3 June 2020 18: 02 New
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                        I don’t know what regions you are talking about, but my godfather, in Nizhny Novgorod, paid less for odnushka for the whole winter than I did in Zaporozhye for a month.
                      2. 2 Level Advisor 3 June 2020 19: 04 New
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                        on an individual, it’s quite possible, although honestly, it’s less during the whole winter than you did in a month, he turned it down, even on an individual, it’s a maximum of 3 times cheaper, and Stavropol is much warmer than Nizhny .. I have central heating, the city of Stavropol , in the area almost all houses are centrally
                    2. Usher 4 June 2020 09: 47 New
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                      Quote: 2 level advisor
                      I have in winter the total payment for an apartment with heating ~ 12500 ..
                      and anticipating the offers of exchanging a senior citizen for 1 piece ..:
                      In 1 - a pensioner in our country, cannot support, it turns out 3k apartment ..
                      In 2 - 1k apartment - 9000 contents ..
                      The minimum pension in the region is 8200 ..
                      Well, now the namesake, compare the magnitude of the power of Russian pensioners to Ukrainian.

                      Brazenly lying, what kind of pension is 8200? maximum per apartment 3-5 thousand. My mother retired at 45 (private security). pension over 20
                    3. lazy 11 June 2020 18: 41 New
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                      in general, if for utilities services, if they pay more than 20 percent of social security income, so that it is no more than 20, and then why do you take the minimum pension and not the average?
                    4. 2 Level Advisor 11 June 2020 22: 42 New
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                      For example, I brought the situation and wrote the minimum .. and so all my friends (not state / law enforcement officers) have a pension of no more than 12tr .. this is a fact .. not much better .. I didn’t know about social protection, thanks for the info .. more It was that a person does not believe that the communal utility can reach 12tr in winter ..
                2. Oleg Zorin 3 June 2020 19: 58 New
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                  Dear, let's not discuss life in / in Ukraine, Burkina Faso, Mars, etc., etc. The topic of the article is indicated, why deviate?
              2. TermNachTer 2 July 2020 18: 39 New
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                And I am very happy for Russia. For those who are very tired of Putin, I will give a simple example. Yushchenko is a collective farm accountant, his wife is a Bandera from the USA, Yanukovych is twice convicted of robberies, Parashenko is a huckster, an alcoholic, Zelensky is a clown. Good change of power? Without looking, I am changing our wholesale for your Putin.
            2. K298rtm 1 July 2020 20: 05 New
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              Everything is known in comparison (after a week of driving around Naples, I realized that we have polite and tidy drivers and normal roads in St. Petersburg). The author of the article correctly compared the cost of UDC.
          2. Parabelum 3 June 2020 08: 46 New
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            Those. that ships will be built in Russia is bad? Let's only without the lyrics, all sorts of "nullifying the example of oil" there. Directly write: "Building ships in Russia is bad, you can’t." Are you trying to say that?
            1. Vladimir Mitin_2 6 June 2020 13: 18 New
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              It’s bad to build ships in Russia - you can’t
          3. aleks399 8 June 2020 23: 19 New
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            Bravo !!!! I fully support! I'm afraid the reality is even worse! Remember what Zelenodolsk Design Bureau designed so far ???? and the Nevsky and Northern sideways !!!!! Tatars, Aksyonov and CUT !!!!!!!!!!!!
    2. businessv 2 June 2020 16: 18 New
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      Quote: Leader of the Redskins
      And here already hang on this skin and the price tag?

      An order estimate was always created before the order itself, so everything is in order with this skin! Another thing is that in the process of performing work and fulfilling the order, this estimate increased, sometimes, by multiple!smile
  2. NEOZ 1 June 2020 12: 54 New
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    Quote: Uncle Lee
    "Do not put salt on my wound"....

    the road will be overpowered, not aching!
    1. Uncle lee 1 June 2020 13: 59 New
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      Quote: NEOZ
      the road will be overpowered

      Only no one is already going nowhere ....
      1. NEOZ 1 June 2020 14: 06 New
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        Quote: Uncle Lee
        Only no one is already going nowhere ....

        well then keep whining ... it will help!
        1. Uncle lee 1 June 2020 15: 24 New
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          And this is not a nagging, but a statement. And you continue to rejoice ... And praise Mr. PJ!
          1. NEOZ 1 June 2020 15: 26 New
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            Quote: Uncle Lee
            And this is not nagging

            no, this is a nagging!
            Quote: Uncle Lee
            and statement

            nagging!!!!
            Quote: Uncle Lee
            And you continue to rejoice ...

            I just do not whine !!!!
            Quote: Uncle Lee
            And praise Mr. PJ

            and who is it?
            1. Uncle lee 1 June 2020 15: 28 New
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              You need to know the classics! You are our optimist.
              1. Dart2027 1 June 2020 19: 42 New
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                Quote: Uncle Lee
                You need to know the classics
                Also classic
                1. Oleg Zorin 3 June 2020 20: 01 New
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                  Well, these guys from the picture, really, everything was gone. And Kozodoev was the first to understand :)
        2. Ross xnumx 2 June 2020 05: 54 New
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          Quote: NEOZ
          well then keep whining ... it will help!

          Yes, this is your team all aching and aching. Insolent to lawlessness continues to refer, then to the Mausoleum on Red Square, then to the "hungry and cold" Soviet legacy, then to sanctions, to inflation, then to world crises, then to a pandemic while increasing the number of chins, cheeks and stomachs.
          It is you who are constantly starting to whine (howl, scold and insult) people for the questions that are natural in these situations: “WHERE?”
    2. Akuzenka 2 June 2020 15: 49 New
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      going, and not aching, will overcome the road!

      I agree that there is no one to follow the path of progress and improve life in Russia.
  • svp67 1 June 2020 07: 15 New
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    Quote: Tlauicol
    Optimistic painted.

    Yes Yes...
    Everything seems to be true, but, unfortunately, the author missed one very important point. The fact is that not only the ruble, but also the euro was subject to inflation.
    Maybe that author missed, but this author misses that:
    - the salaries of French shipbuilders and ours are different and strongly, and not in our favor
    - the cost of metal, for the construction of these ships the same is different, and here it is not in favor of the French ...
    - etc...
    1. antivirus 1 June 2020 08: 07 New
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      many times I mean “profit at all costs ...” there is no problem to make it cheaper and better - there is a task to get more profit from one transaction (contract).
      fundamental contradictions of the capitalist system of the Russian Federation and the mobilization plans of individual thinkers.
      according to Mkhazin, the IVS belonged (?) to the clan of the General Staff-- i.e. break through at all costs -100 years run for 10 ..
      for 30 years of the existence of Russia, we have no goal (and never had) to build the Navy "as in the United States"

      and the ships will be independent combat units, and not only scare the natives by size - it means much more expensive than French
      1. Deck 1 June 2020 08: 28 New
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        Forty and forty - forty ruble, matches taken - did not take, four rubles from you! So the author of the article. An increase in ship dimensions of 2-3% in his opinion will lead to an increase in displacement by 33% and the weight of the metal hull by 40%. It is surprising to me, as a shipbuilding engineer, to look at these bold calculations. Of course, it’s possible to cover up the extra 2 tons of iron as in “Viktor Chernomyrdin”, but besides the plant this is of no interest to anyone (it should be)
        As for the increase in prices by tens of percent, I am sure that it will be so. Otherwise, it will be the first ship in the history of modern Russia.
    2. bar
      bar 1 June 2020 10: 17 New
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      Maybe that author missed, but this author misses

      Both that author and this missed an important thing. Investing in a domestic project will create new jobs and will modernize at least the Zaliv shipyard in Kerch. And this is much better for the country than stupidly selling oil and gas and giving this money to the French. And only for the sake of this should stir up this project.
      I have already expressed this seditious thought in comments to the previous article, and for it I was vigorously covered by the local sect of all-mutters with the label “Hooray quack”.
      1. NEOZ 1 June 2020 13: 01 New
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        Quote: bar
        and for it it was hard-nosed by the local sect of all-mutters with the labeling "Hooray quack".

        This is a special operation of the couch troops of a neighboring country to discredit the scientific and industrial potential of the Russian Federation !!!!
      2. ccsr 1 June 2020 13: 46 New
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        Quote: bar
        Investing in a domestic project will create new jobs and will modernize at least the Zaliv shipyard in Kerch. And this is much better for the country than stupidly selling oil and gas and giving this money to the French. And only for the sake of this should stir up this project.
        I have already expressed this seditious thought in comments to the previous article, and for it I was vigorously covered by the local sect of all-mutters with the label “Hooray quack”.

        On the whole, you wrote everything correctly, but as far as I know, you cannot lay the cost of modernizing the enterprise in the price of military products — you can be sued for this. The scheme looks, I think, in a different way - for the modernization of factory equipment, a loan is taken at interest, and its maintenance and closure is already carried out at the expense of profit received at the end and transfer of finished products to the customer. So that the cost does not fly up to heaven, the cost of work and materials is tracked by military representatives. This encourages manufacturers of military equipment to complete work on time, and at the same time gives the customer the opportunity to choose those who better fulfill the defense order. In the case of the choice of the Gulf, there is one more factor - this will be our largest shipbuilding company on the Black Sea, and therefore they will be given preferences, possibly in terms of taxes, to carry out modernization not only due to a military order.
        1. KVIRTU 8 June 2020 18: 47 New
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          You described how it should be. Meanwhile, the gulf is on strike for a week, they pay half the salary, the policemen brought the case to the organizers, the director was removed, he didn’t finish his palace, yours is hiding, so anyone will become a proverb.
          1. ccsr 8 June 2020 18: 56 New
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            Quote: KVIRTU
            You described how it should be.

            In my time, that was just the way it could be.
            Quote: KVIRTU
            Meanwhile, the gulf is on strike for a week, they pay half the salary,

            Not a factory, but only a pipe workshop, as far as I know from Kerch sources, although few people are happy:
            https://kerch.fm/2020/05/29/na-zavode-zaliv-v-kerchi-ljudi-gotovjatsja-k-zabastovke.html

            Quote: KVIRTU
            the director has been removed, he hasn’t finished building his palace, yours is hiding, so anyone will become a drunkard.

            This is not an indicator in order to disrupt the defense order - even Ulyukaev took bribes from us, but the Ministry of Finance is still working. Everything will settle down, I think so ...
            1. KVIRTU 17 June 2020 22: 49 New
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              God forbid, I live in Crimea, we would like to see all the Gulf as a leading enterprise in this industry, it will be shallow.
      3. Parabelum 3 June 2020 09: 40 New
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        Plus, comrade. For any, absolutely any news, there will always be a fiery revolutionary comment about how everything is bad and we will die.
    3. g1v2 1 June 2020 11: 00 New
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      A ship of a new project and class that we have not yet built. The project leads a KB, which has never dealt with such large ships and especially helicopter carriers. The plant was only just brought into a tolerable state after the Ukrainian collapse and on which large warships had not been built for a long time. The lack of the possibility of block production. And against this, a modern shipyard in France, owned by a Korean company that built the Mistrals in a block method according to a well-developed project. The fact that the price and terms will be different is clear initially. There was even no thought that the construction of such helicopter carriers could take less than 7-8 years against 3-4 from the French. And the cost of developing and building a ship of the first rank of a new class will also be incomparable.
      But after the construction is completed we get the following result.
      1. The Gulf Plant, which from Ukrainian ruins will turn into a shipyard capable of building ships of any class, from boats to an aircraft carrier. Sizes of slipways allow. Plus it can also be upgraded.
      2. The project of helicopter carriers and the conversion of Zelenodoltsy into a KB capable of designing ships of the first rank and aircraft carriers in particular.
      3. 2 ships of the first rank. And it is quite possible that there will be another order for 2-4 of these ships later. The contract on the Mistral was like that.
      4. Opportunities for the Marine Corps for overseas landing and expeditionary operations.
    4. Doccor18 1 June 2020 12: 38 New
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      I agree with the author and commentators. Our UDC, if they are built nevertheless, will be larger and better protected. However, it is hardly believed that the amount of 100 billion was enough. This is not real. Firstly: this is a new shipyard. Secondly: a new type of ship that has not yet been built. Ivan Rogov was a very long time ago, not very successful and much smaller in size. Therefore, these first UDCs of the Russian fleet will cost a pretty penny, which I suppose will be two times higher than the original price. Well, since our rulers have that kind of money available, then it’s better to build UDK on it than mansions on the Cote d'Azur.
      1. sedoj 1 June 2020 16: 45 New
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        Quote: Doccor18
        Well, since our rulers have that kind of money available, then it’s better to build UDK on it than mansions on the Cote d'Azur.

        In our realities, one does not interfere with the other.
    5. NEOZ 1 June 2020 12: 56 New
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      Quote: svp67
      the salaries of French shipbuilders and ours are different and strongly, and not in our favor

      payment of housing and communal services in the Russian Federation, in comparison with the French, is strongly in our favor !!!
  • bayard 1 June 2020 07: 35 New
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    Quote: Tlauicol
    And they’ll not fit into 300 billion

    And where is so much pessimism from?
    Are you really sure that the price will increase 3 (THREE) times?
    I fully admit that inflation and unforeseen expenses can lead to an increase in interest by 20 percent. Even by 30%, given that the plant is just coming to life and some amounts can go for its re-equipment, that suppliers will raise prices during the construction process ... Although inflation (estimated) is also usually included in the price of the contract ...
    Or is it your ardent desire? smile
    1. tlauicol 1 June 2020 07: 54 New
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      Quote: bayard
      Quote: Tlauicol
      And they’ll not fit into 300 billion

      And where is so much pessimism from?

      Or is it your ardent desire? smile

      this is cautious optimism. and experience of recent decades
      1. bayard 1 June 2020 16: 46 New
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        Well, "Gorshkova" is still passed, and a little corvettes. An aircraft carrier will also pass through our harbor ... and UDC in the wake.
        Someday . repeat
  • Viktor Sergeev 1 June 2020 08: 45 New
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    Why not a trillion? Yes, the price will rise, definitely, but 3 times you turned it down, maybe 20 percent.
  • Civil 1 June 2020 08: 54 New
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    The fact is that inflation is an integral feature of a market economy. Moreover, its small value is considered an unconditional good, as it does not allow money to “stagnate” and makes them “work”

    Yes, yes)) the collapse of the ruble from 30 to 70 r))))) inflation)))
    1. vVvAD 1 June 2020 19: 38 New
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      A collapse matters only when there is a purchase in foreign currency - past the cash register. It is necessary to evaluate the purchasing power parity of the currency in the domestic market. Then it will become quite clear why our products are 2-3 times cheaper than American ones.
  • Stas157 1 June 2020 09: 11 New
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    Quote: Tlauicol
    our managers will not fit into any 100bn

    Then do not go to the grandmother! Traditionally, any of our mega projects in the terminal minimum double the price rise. What is characteristic, these unfortunate menagers as a result are also twice as rich. Hello to the Rotenberg family with the Crimean contract!
  • NEOZ 1 June 2020 12: 53 New
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    Quote: Tlauicol
    Just do not be afraid to put the calf against the egg, that our managers will not fit into any 100bn.

    afraid of wolves - do not go to the forest! .... this is not about us !!!!
    1. Ross xnumx 2 June 2020 05: 58 New
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      Quote: NEOZ
      afraid of wolves - do not go to the forest! .... this is not about us !!!!

      Naturally! fellow About you: "No matter how much the wolf feeds ..." and "To be afraid of the teeth ..."
      lol
  • Nordport2 1 June 2020 18: 23 New
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    I’m more than sure that you saw the ships in the picture or on TV. What do you mean when talking about quality? Welding and hull works, power plants and auxiliary mechanisms, pipelines and valves, marine electrics, etc., what exactly will be bad qualities, in which it will be expressed, if possible, with explanations. Without seeing a specific product, you as an expert have passed your verdict, amazing insight. You know in advance that the metal will not meet the requirements, welding seams will not be checked from the word at all, the main the engine will not be centered with the shafting, but the shafting with a shafting, which of all this will be done on these ships. What I agree, I can’t meet the deadlines, that's for sure.
  • Vladimir Mitin_2 6 June 2020 13: 14 New
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    absolutely agree
  • mark1 1 June 2020 05: 37 New
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    Money then remains in the country and works for our economy. Or not?
    1. ALARI 1 June 2020 12: 01 New
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      No they will not work. Money is frozen in iron, and require expensive maintenance. It’s good to play soldiers when there is extra money. Do we have them?
    2. Genry 1 June 2020 12: 15 New
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      Quote: mark1
      Money then remains in the country and works for our economy. Or not?

      No.
      The Gaidar model works when investments are made and profits are exported. This model is sacredly supported by the Russian Central Bank under the direction of the IMF.
      The situation can be changed only by changing the Constitution, where the Russian state bank, controlled by the Ministry of Finance, will be declared instead of the "independent" Central Bank (IMF branch)
    3. vVvAD 1 June 2020 19: 40 New
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      No, no, that you, EVERYTHING LOST !!! wassat wassat wassat
    4. Vladimir Mitin_2 6 June 2020 13: 26 New
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      What economy, for tailoring masks?
  • Zvolinski alex 1 June 2020 05: 41 New
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    why not see 23000 t
    1. Ross xnumx 2 June 2020 05: 59 New
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      Quote: Zvolinski Alex
      why not see 23000 t

      "About 23 tons" yes
  • Thrifty 1 June 2020 05: 51 New
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    Andrei hi only now I’m personally not sure that we will build the ships not only on time, but also meet the budget, because kickbacks have become commonplace with us. Therefore, if we get the ships, they will come out much more expensive, because there is also a problem in the assembly technology. We can use French knowledge, but at our shipyards it is high time to carry out a total modernization of equipment and Russia does not release its equipment according to the good old habit! Therefore, ships will come to us much more than the declared prices!
  • mmaxx 1 June 2020 05: 55 New
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    Why all this to consider? Ships are building for us. This money should remain in the country. And it doesn’t matter that somewhere it will be cheaper.
    The French had a normal factory, which no one plundered or sucked out money. It will be cheaper and faster. But the military must understand who they are protecting. And give the allocated money to people who work in their country.
    We had a smart guy, a whole chief, the General Staff. Counted money. His tanks were dear to him. I wanted to buy German.
    If the military needs something: let it be built here. And money for the barrel.
  • LeonidL 1 June 2020 06: 30 New
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    I agree that the UDC (which they will be so far no one really knows), but will not be “Mistrals”, but more adapted to the conditions of Russia. First of all, it is seaworthiness - if the French troughs swam always in "friendly" and warm waters and always had the opportunity to call at almost any port, then Russian UDC should be prepared for problems similar to Sueta for Kuznetsov. Hence the increased requirements for seaworthiness, controllability, speed, power of the power plant, the choice of propulsion ... The conditions of navigation in the Arctic waters impose additional requirements for survivability (ice class of any kind), according to the living conditions and combat service of the crew and landing. The French have never, and indeed no one has ever really wandered into the Arctic, either on the UDC or on aircraft carriers other than the Russian Navy. Well, the original “Mistrals” are practically unarmed - this weapon is purely colonial, to restore order in the former French colonies. Russian UDCs need defensive weapons, at least short-range / medium-range air defense / missile defense. Well, for long trips in the ocean zone (it’s understandable with an avalanche from tugboats, tankers to supply vessels), as part of a certain ship group, with the minimum possibility of entering ports, you need to have all types of supplies and, alas, distinguish crew and landing troops on board. T e - in my opinion, the Russian UDC, even outwardly, is unlikely to completely look like clones of the "Mistral". By the way, recall how the hectic fighting life of the Mistrales in Egypt takes place there? That's even when conducting operations in the Sinai they were not ...
    Well, and about the already begun floating about stolen pennies ... maybe it's too early to sprinkle chapters with ashes? For example, the cost of the Crimean bridge was even lower than the design. But guardians are silent about this in a rag. Why is it so sweet for some to look for thieves in advance in their own country?
    The construction will provide, among other things, jobs for a long time. It will provide an influx of young people to vocational schools, technical schools and institutes, and not to "economists, sales managers and others ...". Of course, if you build - first of all, what the country needs, build from your own, build for yourself, for your money, with your own hands, the brains of your engineers and designers. This is import substitution. Thank God the liberals dream that for oil and gas everything will be good uncles in their mouth to drip like manna from heaven was covered with a copper basin.
    1. Avior 1 June 2020 08: 49 New
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      The French have never, and indeed no one has ever really wandered into the Arctic, either on the UDC or on aircraft carriers other than the Russian Navy.

      Wandered, though rarely
      https://inforos.ru/ru/?module=news&action=view&id=83521
      https://news.usni.org/2019/01/08/navy-may-deploy-surface-ships-arctic-summer-shipping-lanes-open
      This fall, when the Garry S. Truman aircraft carrier group operated for several weeks north of the Arctic Circle, the carrier himself managed the environment well, but his smaller escort and supply vessels, on which the carrier relied, were on the high seas in more severe conditions. states and icy waters. Similarly, when Iwo Jima's landing assault force sailed from Iceland to Norway in October, the larger landing ship sailed safely, but the smaller landing ship was damaged in stormy seas and had to turn back.

      machine translation clumsy, sorry.

      hi
      1. Looking for 1 June 2020 15: 37 New
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        as far as I know. Not even a single aircraft carrier has been built with a heated deck. Take off from the icy deck somehow, you can throw out the catapult. But how do you land?
        1. Avior 1 June 2020 15: 59 New
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          Sitting is even easier
          The hook will catch on the finish line, the plane will stop.
          He doesn’t stop with brakes on the chassis
        2. Vladimir Mitin_2 6 June 2020 13: 30 New
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          It seems to me, we are talking about helicopter carriers, what kind of catapult?
      2. LeonidL 2 June 2020 00: 02 New
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        You are right, Sergey, but this is the case that you “wandered” and quickly left. This exception confirms my assumptions about the specificity of future UDCs, and not dumb cloning.
  • Shadow041 1 June 2020 07: 46 New
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    There is another important issue that Andrei forgot to mention, with which I completely agree. When ordering the Mistral in France, there was a problem with the placement of domestic helicopters on them, which required higher hangars. The French decided to solve problems head-on by simply lifting the ceilings of the helicopter hangar, which increased the upper weight of the Mistrals for the Russian Federation and the height of their freeboard. As a result, during the tests at sea, the Mistral showed fairly mediocre seaworthiness and stability. Of course, domestic designers should have taken this point into account, and once they took into account, the underwater part of the domestic UDC will have significantly greater draft, and stability and seaworthiness are better than Mistral intended for the Russian Federation.
  • Angelo Provolone 1 June 2020 07: 55 New
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    something in the picture is a ship with a bulb. Like for swimming in the ice should be .. Some garbage ...
  • arhitroll 1 June 2020 08: 56 New
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    Steal from profits ... let all those who participate and finish on time receive a bonus in the form of these 20% exceeding the estimate. And then no one will be sorry. So no - from advances kickbacks will already be shared ...
  • smaug78 1 June 2020 09: 32 New
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    Dear author, I forgot to add one, as our Russian practice shows, during the construction process the product usually rises in price ...
    1. Looking for 1 June 2020 15: 30 New
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      at times. and even tens of times.
  • Esaul 1 June 2020 10: 09 New
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    The author also forgot about Russian specifics - to take into account the amount of bribes, kickbacks and theft in value.
  • Andylw 1 June 2020 10: 55 New
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    I can’t understand why S. Yuferev and the author of the article compare the prices in euros with manic obstinacy?
    Do we have salaries in Euros paid in Crimea, or have we already replaced so much that we will also buy metal, equipment and engines for our UDCs for euros?
    The calculation of the price of Crimean UDC as 2 times the French is absolutely correct.
    We paid the French in euros at the rate, converting 49 billion budget rubles at the time of the conclusion of the contract
    We simply pay the bay 100 billion rubles! why translate them into euros is unclear.
    The difference in price is explained by the general inefficiency of shipbuilding in Russia and low labor productivity
  • xomaNN 1 June 2020 11: 13 New
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    People got excited about the news about the Kerch order of UDC. smile Already a few notes on this topic.
    The main plus is that at the finish line the Navy should include 2 large combat units. I hope in an acceptable time frame. Of course, they will not invest in the planned 100 billion rubles. Any head order, in my experience in shipbuilding, reveals a lot of inconsistencies, mistakes of designers and technologists. Corrections of CD and alteration of already manufactured structures are required. Moreover, the choice of a KB designer raises questions for me. In the USSR, specialization was and the experience of each team is unique to \ different types of ships. Such large NKs were always designed by St. Petersburg design bureaus.
    And most importantly, combat-ready MILITARY ships should be obtained, and not adapted civilian vessels.
    1. Vladimir Mitin_2 6 June 2020 13: 43 New
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      Naturally, St. Petersburg design bureaus should design, but not the manufacturer, they will design half a sea
  • Ros 56 1 June 2020 11: 26 New
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    We are greedy for defense, it will cost more in case of conflict.
    1. Looking for 1 June 2020 15: 32 New
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      "budgetary pumps" are also counting on such a psychology.
  • Engineer 1 June 2020 11: 30 New
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    For some reason, no one expressed seditious thought
    Two UDC in total displacement more than de Gaulle.
    Who of the Moreman explained that UDC crap, and our aviki is everything?))))
    1. Potter 1 June 2020 18: 07 New
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      It is necessary to have both UDC and aircraft carriers. But aircraft carriers now really can not afford the country. And on these ships you can seriously train.
    2. vVvAD 1 June 2020 19: 46 New
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      They have a slightly different purpose. More precisely, completely different. And disputes about tasks are not appropriate at all - they are determined by the General Staff.
  • Looking for 1 June 2020 15: 28 New
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    The fleet will respond to provocations. Can he answer at least a month of a real war ?? No wonder JV Stalin realized only after the war that with songs like ".. If tomorrow is war" you will not manage.
  • Looking for 1 June 2020 15: 42 New
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    In general, UDC is a weapon of aggression. But what about the Russian doctrine of defense.?
    1. Potter 1 June 2020 18: 05 New
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      This is a weapon to protect the interests of the country. The Syrian express with Soviet-built BDKs breathing incense proved the need for such ships.
  • Rudkovsky 1 June 2020 17: 31 New
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    == It can be assumed that by concluding a contract in the amount of "about 100 billion rubles." for the construction of two UDC, the domestic Navy will receive two ships ==

    You can assume anything, but in reality for this money there will be no UDC. The cost of the mistral should be multiplied by at least two, because kickbacks in the military commissar are plus or minus half the price of the contract, and to the already doubled price add the price of all the other chips - the uniqueness of the project, a large displacement, etc., etc. Plus, the project is long, before 2035 you should not wait, another 5% to the price every year "just like that" and "for seeds" to managers.

    So consider.
  • shoroh 1 June 2020 18: 00 New
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    There will certainly be air defense. Polement-redoubt at least. And most importantly, such ships are very necessary. They are very flexible in use. They can carry both attack helicopters and marine corps. And even be a command center.
  • Potter 1 June 2020 18: 04 New
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    Glad to see Andrew's article! Unconditional plus!
    Unfortunately, instead of specific members of the forum, the uneducated whiners paid for came.
  • Potter 1 June 2020 18: 27 New
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    And now on the case. The Navy of the USSR approached the UDC titanium ships in project 1174, Rhino, Ivan Rogov and his comrades. Built in the 1970s and 80s 3 pieces. Displacement 14000t. 50 tanks, 80 infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers, battalion of marines (500 h). 4 helicopters Ka-29. Docking chamber. Ships did not go very well. Stint on the size. As a result, limited capabilities for landing the first wave from helicopters, average in the dock chamber. GEM - gas turbines. They then led to the early exit of ships from the lists of the fleet. If the parameters are close to the slipping characteristics, there will be ships that are extremely necessary for our fleet. And to project interests in the world, and to protect the Kuril Islands. Well, screams of kickbacks, bribes and theft are expected. Gentlemen are not familiar with the real situation on major government contracts. I hope the times of thieves from Spetsstroy have passed. Let the organs do not sleep. The price, perhaps, will be higher - 30% is the normal value for a completely new type of ship for us. I suppose so. Thanks again to Andrey, I miss you without his articles.
    1. Vladimir Mitin_2 6 June 2020 13: 37 New
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      Judging by the fact that Bursuk is still free, times have not passed.
  • Egor53 1 June 2020 21: 04 New
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    The Mistral “procurement” project from France was an excellent development of our special services.
    The price of the Mistral was overstated by France at least 25-30%. The Russian side received a 20% pullback from the French, of which 5% was rolled back to the French.
    It was expected that the United States, with high probability, would force France to refuse to supply the Mistrals, which France was forced to do in the end. Also, a fine to pay for non-delivery of 500 million euros.
    As a result, Russia received a penalty of 500 million, plus a + 15% kickback, i.e. 180 million euros, in the amount of 680 million

    And France could not sue. Their courts are corrupt before and beyond. But for some reason, it is not customary to cite data on kickbacks in the courts.
    1. Oleg Zorin 3 June 2020 20: 15 New
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      Good plot of a spy novel. When will your book be printed?
  • Chingachguck 1 June 2020 21: 06 New
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    Do not forget about taxes and in particular VAT. Mistrals were exported from France and were not taxed. For the French fleet, they would cost 20% more. Accordingly, in Russia, for comparison, the VAT should be deducted from the mentioned price. In addition, we must not forget about deductions for the income of individuals from the salaries of workers at the shipyard, as well as other taxes that will remain in our country.
  • ser56 1 June 2020 21: 38 New
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    The author is right, but one more touch - taxes (along the entire supply chain) will remain in the country, so the state is even more profitable ...
  • iouris 1 June 2020 22: 06 New
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    There is nothing to analyze here. It is necessary to force effective “managers” to answer with their head for failure to meet deadlines, and consider stealing money as treason. Although there seems to be no such thing. Well, then it must be entered.
  • Xnumx vis 1 June 2020 22: 36 New
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    Quote: NEOZ
    Quote: bar
    and for it it was hard-nosed by the local sect of all-mutters with the labeling "Hooray quack".

    This is a special operation of the couch troops of a neighboring country to discredit the scientific and industrial potential of the Russian Federation !!!!

    Recently, well, a lot of sofas have left their neighboring country from their positions ... The stench is from the exhaust from their sofas ... Probably they burn fuel! Or pay them little, not enough for quality ....
  • Avarron 3 June 2020 03: 53 New
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    I wonder why the author considers the cost of already Russian UDC, which will be built at Russian shipyards, in euros? I did not read the article, because the delirium is delusional.
  • 2 Level Advisor 4 June 2020 09: 55 New
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    Quote: Usher
    Brazenly lying, what kind of pension is 8200? maximum per apartment 3-5 thousand. My mother retired at 45 (private security). pension over 20

    The Law of the Stavropol Territory of October 08, 2019 No. 68-kz “On the value of the living wage of a pensioner in the Stavropol Territory for 2020” “establish for 2020 the value of the living wage of a pensioner in the Stavropol Territory in the amount of 8297 rubles.”
    I'm waiting for an apology for accusing me of being a liar.
    P.S. whose mom is a State Duma deputy, so there’s a great pension there ..
    Let me take off my winter paycheck for 12tr, and you send me the cognac, have you agreed?
  • IC
    IC 8 June 2020 02: 01 New
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    Why do not compare the construction time? With the stated deadlines for the Gulf, it can be expected that by the end of construction the cost could rise by 50%.
  • IC
    IC 8 June 2020 02: 14 New
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    All commentators forgot to discuss one major issue. Where do they plan to land after 2030. Is there still a new Syria?
  • Saireg 8 June 2020 18: 12 New
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    hmm, let's go over our relatively close competitors from the Pacific Ocean minus the United States, in terms of construction (taking into account the planned and planned) UDC \ = helicopter carriers: China - 6 units (project 075), Japan - 4 units. (2 - Hyuga, 2 - Izuma), South Korea - 3 units (Dokdo)., Australia - 3 units. (2 - Canberra, 1 - Bay). On the issue of cost, let’s say the head Izuma was valued at 53 billion yen, it’s about 87 billion rubles, at the current rate, so that it will cost at least a third more than the declared 50 billion rubles + 25-30 billion rubles), to solve related issues and cost
  • Saireg 8 June 2020 18: 27 New
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    Quote: IMS
    All commentators forgot to discuss one major issue. Where do they plan to land after 2030. Is there still a new Syria?
    Yes, we simply take the list of our partners for orders from the military-industrial complex or trade there, and we get at least Egypt, South Africa and Algeria (there used to be Libya, but Russia got wiped out without landing), then we check the list of African countries that have been forgiven debts and check that that they have access to the ocean for political or economic benefits (do not forget that the countries of the Islamic World and China will furiously invest in Africa)
  • Saireg 8 June 2020 18: 36 New
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    Just in case, I remind you, sometimes it’s better to act as a neutral, say to send the UDC to cover its consul or ambassador, while also protecting that ruler (s) who will ask for political asylum and solve humanitarian tasks along the way, showing the flag something like that ... the Russian Empire in Korea in the 19th century defended the consulate and simultaneously Queen Ming and the heir when the Japanese invaded them.
  • lazy 11 June 2020 18: 47 New
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    annoying comments about "everything was stolen and nothing was built" in a large stone a shipyard was built which in the Far East, even under the Communists, was not capable of building ships with a displacement of 100000 tons, but Komsomolsk is already building 3 corvettes
  • Polente the Wanderer Yesterday, 20: 43 New
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    Вывод- к КАКОМУ СТОЛЕТИЮ их построят?