Military Review

How the German military spoke about captured PCA

243
How the German military spoke about captured PCA

During the Great Patriotic War, the Shpagin submachine gun became the most massive submachine gun in the Red Army. And it was no coincidence. Weapon earned a lot of positive feedback, including from enemies - German soldiers.


Like German weapons to Soviet soldiers, our submachine guns also sometimes fell to the Germans as trophies. Wehrmacht soldiers were very surprised by the excellent characteristics of the PPSh-41. Maschinenpistole 717 (r) - exactly so, with the small letter "p" - "Russian" in brackets, the Germans called PPSh-41.

So, shooting from a Soviet submachine gun created a high density of fire, the rate of fire was higher than that of the MP-40. Sighting range also differed in a favorable direction. In addition, which was very important, the 71-round magazine made it possible to achieve a significant advantage: the Wehrmacht soldier had to change two MP-40 magazines, and during that time the Red Army soldier shot only one PPSh disk.

After the same period of time there was still a significant supply of ammunition, "and this turned out to be decisive for the outcome of some battles,

- German authors Rainer Liedshun and Gunter Wallert write in the book "Small Arms Yesterday (1918-1945)."

Another undoubted advantage of the PPSh-41 was a massive wooden butt. Thanks to him, the submachine gun turned into an excellent weapon for hand-to-hand combat. There was nothing for German soldiers armed with an MP-40 with a folding butt to counter the PPSh, if it was possible to converge in hand-to-hand combat. The Soviet soldiers affectionately called the Shpagin submachine gun “Daddy”, and the German soldiers “the small machine gun”.

We tried to get the Russian "small machine gun." The disk seemed to have 72 rounds, and with good care it was a very formidable weapon. In general, Russian weapons were appreciated for their simplicity and reliability. But it was very poorly protected from corrosion and rust. Our weapons were better crafted

- recalled the corporal Wehrmacht, who happened to fight near Moscow.

PPSh was also distinguished by simplicity: one of the former soldiers of the SS troops already after the war recalled that it was possible to learn the principle of disassembling the Soviet submachine gun very quickly, no instructions were required.


Since the number of submachine guns and machine guns in the Wehrmacht units was, contrary to the prevailing myth, smaller than in the Red Army, the German soldiers were very happy when they got a trophy “small machine gun” Shpagin. Indeed, the company, as a former Wehrmacht soldier recalls, had an average of 15-20 assault rifles, and the rest of the soldiers were armed with carbines. Naturally, in this situation, the PCA, even with certain shortcomings, was still the best weapon.

The popularity of PPSh in the units of Hitler’s troops was so significant that in October 1942, SS Obergruppenführer Felix Martin Julius Steiner, commander of the Viking SS division, turned to Heinrich Himmler with a proposal to launch production of submachine guns similar to the Soviet PPS at German factories.

Russian assault rifles are widely used in our division, they have proven themselves to be very reliable even in the most adverse conditions,

- wrote the SS Obergruppenführer to his boss.

Himmler gave the green light to modify the PPSh for the standard 9x19 mm cartridge used in the Wehrmacht. The new weapon was called MP-41 (r). Arms factories quickly produced 10 thousand barrels for Soviet PPSh. Particularly often reworked PPSh were used in the "elite" SS divisions. The enemy knew a lot about weapons and spoke about the PCA with respect. Still: 900 rounds per minute from PPSh against 500 from MP! There is a difference?
Author:
243 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must to register.

I have an account? Sign in

  1. Mavrikiy
    Mavrikiy 22 May 2020 17: 33 New
    16
    How the German military spoke about captured PCA
    Yes, like our spoke about Schmeiser. Got in battle and thank God there is something to fight, especially in intelligence.
    1. AUL
      AUL 22 May 2020 17: 49 New
      40
      According to the stories of my father, a front-line soldier, the 71-cartridge disk was very heavy (an empty half kilo) and uncomfortable to wear. In addition, disk charging was a very slow and hemorrhoid process. When the modification with the carob store was created, the soldiers liked it much more.
      The rate of fire was higher than that of the MP, but to call it an advantage is debatable enough.
      And PPSh had one inherent flaw. When falling on a hard surface, he began to shoot, spinning on the ground. And he did not fall silent until the cartridges ran out. However, this applies not only to PCA.
      This was told to me by my father, who went through both the Stalingrad and Kursk battles with the PPSh.
      1. ssergey1978
        ssergey1978 22 May 2020 17: 59 New
        +6
        PPS also has a trouble fuse
      2. Catfish
        Catfish 22 May 2020 19: 58 New
        +7
        Exactly! I myself have heard this story more than once or twice. The PPSh, thrown to the ground, will not "calm down" until it gives a full turn and fires off the entire store. The same thing in winter, with poorly removed lubrication, the cartridges in the disc would freeze, and if you hit the butt against a wall or a tree, the PPSh would throw the entire disc into white light as a pretty penny.
        1. 210ox
          210ox 23 May 2020 06: 23 New
          12
          This is in the event that the machine was "on the platoon." Shooting was carried out from an open bolt.
          1. Bobrovsky
            Bobrovsky 23 May 2020 07: 46 New
            +2
            It was enough to hit their butt with something, the shutter bounced back and shots started.
      3. BAI
        BAI 22 May 2020 21: 41 New
        +5
        I happened to charge the PPSh disk. Very uncomfortable. Maybe if you train, things go faster.
      4. Nehist
        Nehist 23 May 2020 00: 56 New
        +3
        The most important drawback of PCA was the lack of interchangeability of makazines. The store of one PPSh did not approach another
        1. AUL
          AUL 23 May 2020 06: 16 New
          15
          Quote: Nehist
          The store of one PPSh did not approach another

          This was at the beginning of the release of weapons. Then they solved this problem.
        2. Crimean partisan 1974
          Crimean partisan 1974 23 May 2020 19: 34 New
          +3
          The main drawback of the PCA was the lack of interchangeability of makazin ........... all this, they read along the wiki, it was a system of rejection from different factories. which straightened in the field and it wasn’t a problem, the main problem of the dad was the trigger system
        3. Altona
          Altona 24 May 2020 13: 20 New
          +2
          Quote: Nehist
          The most important drawback of PCA was the lack of interchangeability of makazines. The store of one PPSh did not approach another

          ---------------------------
          Well, what to do? The production base was low, assembly conductors at the sites were different. You can complain a lot about this, but you need to look at the situation as a whole, and not just from the point of view of the one looking into the sight. We could not afford expensive production then.
      5. martin-159
        martin-159 23 May 2020 06: 59 New
        +5
        Quote: AUL
        71 cartridge drive was very heavy (empty one and a half kilos)

        800 g full.
        1. AUL
          AUL 23 May 2020 07: 12 New
          +9
          Quote: martin-159
          800 g full.

          The mass of the drum magazine without cartridges: 1,15 kg.
          The mass of the equipped drum magazine: 1,94 kg.

          The weight of the equipped "horn" is 1.14 kg.
      6. AK1972
        AK1972 23 May 2020 09: 59 New
        +1
        There was one more drawback. When firing in long bursts, the PPSh spontaneously "broke", so the shooter was forced to hold the receiver with his left hand from above, this can be seen in the frontline chronicle frames. I was told about this by the head of the RAV service, unfortunately now deceased, who had to shoot from the PPSh, because even after decommissioning, a huge amount of PPShs remained in the mob's warehouses. reserve.
      7. vskursk
        vskursk 23 May 2020 12: 01 New
        +6
        Land, (address to Alexander from Kursk) with Victory Day! If your father is alive, then good health and many years to him, if the Eternal memory has rested! Thank you for keeping the memories of your father, the hero of the land of Kursk
        1. AUL
          AUL 23 May 2020 15: 49 New
          12
          Quote: vskursk
          If your father is alive, then good health and many years to him, if the Eternal memory has rested!

          Thank you countryman! Unfortunately, his father died in 83. Age (he was born in 1904) and frontal wounds ... But now in Kursk he is remembered as a front-line soldier, teacher, archaeologist, local historian, writer. Eternal memory to him!
      8. Andrey Krasnoyarsky
        Andrey Krasnoyarsky 23 May 2020 13: 38 New
        +1
        When falling on a hard surface, he began to shoot, spinning on the ground.
        In support of your words, I will cite my colleague's story of how his grandfather died. The soldier went through almost the entire war without receiving a single wound. On May 9, 1945, the news of the end of the war came. The soldier with the words "how tired she is, damn", took his PPSh and threw it aside. The machine gun hit the wall of the dugout and fired a burst right into the owner's chest.
      9. pereselenec
        pereselenec 26 May 2020 14: 16 New
        -2
        Quote: AUL
        In addition, disk charging was a very slow and hemorrhoid process.


        I will say more - because of the large tolerances, each PCA was produced with two drives specially adapted for a specific instance, and strangers could not be used on it.
    2. Petrik66
      Petrik66 22 May 2020 22: 08 New
      14
      PPSh - more suitable for assault units, as well as for armament of high-quality reinforcement units (company of machine gunners). The German MRs were popular with the scouts precisely because of the specifics of their tasks behind the front line, where the adversaries strained if they heard the firing of PCs in their rear, sent their soldiers to catch enemies. And, if they heard the crack of IR, then they perceived it as the norm of a difficult life.
      1. Thunderbolt
        Thunderbolt 23 May 2020 00: 21 New
        +2
        Quote: Petrik66
        German MRs enjoyed success with scouts precisely because of the specifics of their tasks behind the front line,

        Here! I agree with this use, for the sake of this they saved it. And so, they used it as it was, shot it and threw it away.
        1. Bobrovsky
          Bobrovsky 23 May 2020 07: 48 New
          +3
          One of the veterans recalled how a dozen Germans who went in a group and nobody paid any attention to it were put from a German machine gun in their rear.
    3. Paul Siebert
      Paul Siebert 24 May 2020 08: 00 New
      +5
      Yuri Bondarev has a story "Weapon" in "Moments". In it, he walks and examines captured German weapons.
      Graceful curves of "Walters", mother-of-pearl handles of "Parabellums", brilliant bluing of "Schmeissers".
      The author admires and resents at the same time - to put so much labor and talent into the instruments of death!
      Make killing machines beautiful!
      “Our weapons are rougher than the German ones,” says Bondarev.
      But a weapon should kill, not delight.
      And "Daddy" had no problems with that! .. wink
      1. Thunderbolt
        Thunderbolt 24 May 2020 10: 09 New
        +3
        Bondarev knew what to state. It can be said that he simply poured out what accumulated in the souls of Soviet veterans.
        P.S. For the destruction of three firing points, a car, an anti-tank gun and 20 enemy soldiers and officers in the vicinity of the village of Boromlya, Sumy Region, he was awarded the medal “For Courage”
    4. Incvizitor
      Incvizitor 28 May 2020 00: 56 New
      0
      The big store was also a minus when they acted quickly and covertly (the same scouts) and the crews were much more comfortable then for them there were PPS of course, but they also did not disdain shmeisers.
  2. The leader of the Redskins
    The leader of the Redskins 22 May 2020 17: 39 New
    +3
    Given that the penetration ability of a 7,62 mm cartridge is higher, the MP40 lags even further.
    True, the "daddy" stores were not interchangeable at first, but that's another story.
    1. svp67
      svp67 22 May 2020 17: 51 New
      10
      Quote: Leader of the Redskins
      Given that 7,62 mm

      Especially when you consider that this is one in one German Mauser cartridge ... then the Germans did not have problems with ammunition
      1. Aleksandre
        Aleksandre 22 May 2020 19: 19 New
        +5
        Quote: svp67
        Especially when you consider that this is one in one German Mauser cartridge ... then the Germans did not have problems with ammunition

        7,62 × 25 mm TT
        7,63 × 25 mm Mauser
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 22 May 2020 19: 35 New
          10
          Here's how to measure. Someone measures on the fields, and someone on the cuts. The cartridge is the same.
          1. Vladimir Ilyich
            Vladimir Ilyich 23 May 2020 01: 10 New
            +4
            One hundredth of a millimeter in the diameter of the bullet does not matter, the manufacturing error is even greater.
          2. Revolver
            Revolver 23 May 2020 09: 15 New
            +2
            Quote: Sea Cat
            Here's how to measure. Someone measures on the fields, and someone on the cuts.

            I don’t believe that the depth of the PPSh rifling is only .005mm. The PPSh barrel has the same caliber and rifling as Mosin and Nagan. So much the same that the Naganov and PPSh trunks were made by cutting the defective Mosin trunks. I looked into the barrel of my revolver, and by the appearance of the rifling they are measured in tenths of a millimeter, and not in thousandths. Unfortunately I don’t have a caliper to measure for sure.
            1. Hwostatij
              Hwostatij 23 May 2020 19: 16 New
              +2
              Do you want to change the cuts in thousandths of a millimeter with a caliper? How, if not a secret?)))
              1. Revolver
                Revolver 24 May 2020 00: 54 New
                +1
                I won’t be able to measure the thousandths, but the tenths completely. Measure the inner diameter of the trunk in the fields and, respectively, in the cuts, subtract the smaller from the larger, divide the result in half. That's just such a small caliper for measuring inside the barrel 7.62 I do not have.
            2. Bobrovsky
              Bobrovsky 26 August 2020 21: 32 New
              0
              The diameter of the rifle bullet is 7,92 mm, and the bullets of the TT and PPSh pistols are 7,85. That is, the rifling in the rifle barrel is deeper than in the TT, revolver and submachine gun.
              1. Revolver
                Revolver 27 August 2020 19: 56 New
                0
                Quote: Bobrovsky
                rifle grooves are deeper than in TT, revolver and submachine gun

                You don't have to carry it. In the TK of the tender for a revolver, which in 1895. won the Nagant, it was clearly stated that the caliber, depth, and rifling pitch of the revolver should be exactly like the three-line rifle of the 1891 model. Nagan barrels were often made from defective rifles. And if I remember correctly, the PPSh barrel was obtained by cutting the barrel of the 1891/1930 rifle in half. I'm not sure about the TT, I didn't hold it in my hands, but taking into account the fact that the same cartridge was used for TT and PPSh, most likely the rifling is the same.
        2. Revolver
          Revolver 23 May 2020 09: 06 New
          +3
          Very close, but not quite. The Soviet cartridge had a larger weight of gunpowder and a bullet with a steel core, respectively, a slightly different ballistics. Regular firing by the Soviet cartridge could have killed Mauser 1896, not designed for such loads. PPSh calmly used German cartridges, but accuracy and penetration ability suffered, especially at firing distances close to the maximum aiming range, emnip 200m. But in general, machines were usually used at distances less than 50m, at which the difference was not very strong, if at all, noticeable.
          1. konchitawurst
            konchitawurst 30 May 2020 20: 27 New
            -1
            A bullet with steel appeared either at the end of the war or after. The Germans had a bullet with a steel-baked middle
            1. Revolver
              Revolver 30 May 2020 20: 30 New
              0
              It seems like an armor-piercing bullet for PPD and TT (PPSh was not in the project then) was used as far back as the Finnish war. And she was exactly that with a steel core.
              1. konchitawurst
                konchitawurst 30 May 2020 20: 44 New
                -1
                I just watched the info recently. The Germans appeared, from baked metal. Ours didn’t, at least in commercial quantities. Later they began to do it
        3. svp67
          svp67 23 May 2020 09: 08 New
          -2
          Quote: Aleksandre
          7,62 × 25 mm TT
          7,63 × 25 mm Mauser

          They are identical, they just took measurements differently, for us on the upper edge of the rifling, for Germans on the inside
          1. Aleksandre
            Aleksandre 23 May 2020 11: 37 New
            +1
            Quote: svp67
            They are identical, they just took measurements differently, for us on the upper edge of the rifling, for Germans on the inside

            Understood, thanks to all who answered.
          2. Bobrovsky
            Bobrovsky 26 August 2020 21: 34 New
            0
            The bullet of the Mauser cartridge is one hundred square meters thicker. And those who fired from the K-96 Mauser noted that when you shoot from it with TT cartridges, the spread is greater.
      2. Cetron
        Cetron 22 May 2020 19: 59 New
        +1
        Logistics! One cartridge for the gun and PP. What is Germany, what is the USSR. One cartridge for a rifle and machine gun.
        1. svp67
          svp67 23 May 2020 09: 11 New
          +1
          Quote: Cetron
          Logistics! One cartridge for the gun and PP. What is Germany, what is the USSR. One cartridge for a rifle and machine gun.

          For the USSR is not true. For the USSR, the fact that for the production of trunks it was possible to use the same measuring instruments played a greater role. We got to the point that defective trunks for rifles and machine guns, after inspection and decision making, were sent further for the manufacture of submachine guns, pistols or revolvers, into marriage ...
          1. Bobrovsky
            Bobrovsky 26 August 2020 21: 36 New
            0
            If this is done before rifling, since the depth of the rifling of rifles and pistols TT and PPSh is different and they will have a large spread of bullets.
      3. aws4
        aws4 23 May 2020 05: 34 New
        0
        not one to one .. you have a small gap in knowledge here)))))
      4. Errr
        Errr 23 May 2020 07: 45 New
        +1
        Quote: svp67
        Especially when you consider that this is one in one German Mauser cartridge ...
        And what side is there Mauser? Literally all MP (not only MP.38 / 40) were sharpened under the cartridge 9 × 19 mm Parabellum developed by Luger.
        1. svp67
          svp67 23 May 2020 09: 13 New
          0
          Quote: Herrr
          And what side is there Mauser?

          So they were used to provide units, units, and even formations (one of the SS tank divisions), the armament of which was trophy, not re-armed PPSh-41
          1. Errr
            Errr 23 May 2020 12: 30 New
            0
            I, in fact, that the cartridge 7,63x25 Mauser in some way does not look like the cartridge 9x19 Parabellum (Luger). smile
            On this issue, you can well stretch the brain very sensible article at https://cont.ws/@MexanikD/1136986.
    2. ssergey1978
      ssergey1978 22 May 2020 17: 58 New
      +1
      9pair better stores energy on the trajectory, also more severe injuries, healing of wounds from steam is longer.
      1. Alexfly
        Alexfly 22 May 2020 18: 24 New
        +6
        The energy of 7,62 Current is still higher than that of 9mm steam. Formula, hopefully remember. Stopping action on the contrary, but this is a problem for the development of bullets, since there was no diversity. Accepted the cheapest result, suitable according to the requirements. Tokarevsky cartridge has a lot of stock for modifications and upgrades. True, this is a different story.
        1. ssergey1978
          ssergey1978 22 May 2020 18: 38 New
          -5
          Where does 7.62x25 get more energy?
          1. Alexfly
            Alexfly 22 May 2020 18: 59 New
            +6
            In this case, the square of speed plays, count.
          2. certero
            certero 23 May 2020 01: 02 New
            +8
            From physics, there is such a science.
      2. mr.ZinGer
        mr.ZinGer 22 May 2020 20: 12 New
        +3
        Translate for me Russian "better saves energy on the trajectory."
        1. ssergey1978
          ssergey1978 22 May 2020 20: 18 New
          0
          If you do not understand the elementary why climb out? To save energy on the trajectory, this means the bullet spends less energy on overcoming a certain distance
          1. mr.ZinGer
            mr.ZinGer 22 May 2020 20: 39 New
            -2
            And in more detail, how can this bullet spend less energy and more energy to overcome the trajectory?
            There is energy that is defined in joules, do you remember the dimension?
            And the end of the trajectory has more energy that body that possessed more energy initially. Mauser’s bullet has more energy.
            Read a physics textbook for grade 6.
            1. ssergey1978
              ssergey1978 22 May 2020 20: 51 New
              -3
              Does the balistic coefficient not tell you anything? Read the textbook for grade 6 yourself.
              1. mr.ZinGer
                mr.ZinGer 22 May 2020 20: 56 New
                12
                You made two mistakes in the word "ballistic". Read also the textbook of the Russian language.
                1. ssergey1978
                  ssergey1978 22 May 2020 21: 00 New
                  -1
                  Sintered physicist. And I thought, tell me how a 12-caliber bullet with energies of 4000 J. Flies as much as 7.62x54 with an energy of 4000 J. Physics says this. And look at the energy on the trajectory of the grendel.
                  1. mr.ZinGer
                    mr.ZinGer 22 May 2020 21: 53 New
                    +2
                    An expert on the Russian language, what is the contradiction? Bullet 7.62 will have more energy on any part of the trajectory than a bullet with a diameter of 18,5 mm at the same energy at the muzzle end, due to greater speed (remember the formula mVe square).

                    But we talked about pistol cartridges, give me at least one figure on the cartridge of the Mauser and Luger, such as a BALLISTIC coefficient or residual energy in joules, to prove my point.

                    If you have a stopping action, then the Luger bullet has it higher because the mass of the bullet is greater and the braking speed is higher.
                    1. ssergey1978
                      ssergey1978 22 May 2020 22: 03 New
                      -5
                      What are you clinging to the square of speed? It works at speeds of 1500 ms. For example, it is clearly visible on the BPS. At a pistol bullet the speed is small and your square there does not make weather. What is the figure and what kind of Mauser are we talking about? Bullet energy affects the conservation of bullet energy. You can find its value for 7.62x25 and 9x19 on ADE. Ada is a little table.
                      1. mr.ZinGer
                        mr.ZinGer 22 May 2020 22: 51 New
                        +2
                        The formula em ve square acts at any speed, then there would be no stopping effect.
                        Yes, the ballistic coefficient affects the range but I did not find specific figures for pistol cartridges.
                        Based on the energy at the muzzle end and flight range, we can say that the Mauser bullet has more energy on any part of the trajectory compared to the bullet luger.
                        If you convince me otherwise, I will be pleasantly surprised.
                      2. ssergey1978
                        ssergey1978 22 May 2020 22: 58 New
                        +3
                        7.62x25 balkof 0.113
                        9x19 balkof 0.130
                      3. ssergey1978
                        ssergey1978 22 May 2020 23: 11 New
                        +1
                        I found a table on the example of faculty and MP28 up to 350 meters TT merges mercilessly, if you tell me how to put a screenshot, I’ll post it
                      4. Korax71
                        Korax71 22 May 2020 23: 52 New
                        +3
                        This is only in greenhouse conditions and in a vacuum. In fact, everything is much more complicated. You correctly give the formula, but you forget one main nuance that it has an invariable component, like a bullet mass.5.5gr 7.62x25 versus 8gr 9x19. at a distance of up to 100m, but lost them to a range of 200m. roughly speaking, the speed at the muzzle end and at a distance of 200m was less than 2 times, and at this range on acorns he already lost 9x19. 7.62x25 had a number of advantages as a little more the trajectory (difference from 9x19-20cm) increased penetration (4 boards 25mm at a range of 25m versus 3), but there were a number of significant drawbacks: weak stopping effect of the bullet due to the smaller cross-sectional area, worse terminal ballistics.
                      5. ssergey1978
                        ssergey1978 23 May 2020 05: 29 New
                        -2
                        Nobody forgets about the weight, of course. The light bullet and the speed one have short advantages, but at the pistol speeds they are scanty and the designers easily neglected them by choosing 9th. By changing 9 pairs to a lighter bullet, we get speeds of 600 ms.
                2. ssergey1978
                  ssergey1978 22 May 2020 22: 07 New
                  0
                  About OD, do not you think the contradiction between the statement about a larger mass and the braking speed, but what about physics? OD of the luger is really higher in the numbers OD 9x19 is 44, OD 7.62x25 is 27 but OD is composed of many factors.
                  1. mr.ZinGer
                    mr.ZinGer 22 May 2020 23: 12 New
                    0
                    No, the higher the braking speed, the higher the stopping effect (the speed of energy transfer from one body to another), this is the same em square with the opposite sign. A pointed bullet slows down more slowly (when it penetrates the body), respectively, energy is transmitted over a longer period of time.
                  2. ssergey1978
                    ssergey1978 22 May 2020 23: 15 New
                    +3
                    An acutely finite bullet has the property of somersaulting in contact with obstruction; the physics textbook does not work here. Moreover, with an acute final bullet, the effect of water hammer is present; the bullet practically does not lose energy and the OD is huge
                  3. mr.ZinGer
                    mr.ZinGer 22 May 2020 23: 33 New
                    +1
                    OD physics is based on a sharp decrease in the velocity of a bullet, the transition of kinetic energy to potential. And this is achieved in different ways (also somersaults or the effect of water hammer) Lead bullet has a greater OD than usual due to deformation. Explosive bullets with a released nose had disgusting ballistics, but inflicted terrible wounds.
                    If possible, post a link to ballistic coefficients.
                  4. ssergey1978
                    ssergey1978 22 May 2020 23: 46 New
                    +3
                    It doesn’t work, tomorrow I’ll take the computer from the child, it will probably work out.
                    in words
                    PPP 500 ms and 690 joules
                    MP 28 340 ms and 462J
                    at a distance of 500 meters
                    PPP 204 ms and 114 j
                    MP28 187 ms vs 140 J
                  5. mr.ZinGer
                    mr.ZinGer 22 May 2020 23: 52 New
                    0
                    Yes, interesting numbers, I look forward to continuing.
                    thanks for the info
                  6. ssergey1978
                    ssergey1978 22 May 2020 23: 57 New
                    0
                    I recommend visiting the Hansa, = in fact if there are weapons, there are many competent specialists, including athletes. A lot of theoretical calculations. The TT cartridge and 7.63 Mauser died for a reason even at the dawn of the 20th century.
                  7. Alexfly
                    Alexfly 23 May 2020 10: 52 New
                    0
                    Dead? Yeah, resurrected at 5,7x28 FN. I already said, the 25mm sleeve has more options ...
                  8. ssergey1978
                    ssergey1978 23 May 2020 11: 21 New
                    0
                    what is common between them? Bottle sleeve?
                  9. Alexfly
                    Alexfly 23 May 2020 18: 35 New
                    0
                    Based on the TT liner, you can make the best cartridge ... at least ...
                  10. ssergey1978
                    ssergey1978 23 May 2020 20: 12 New
                    0
                    Based on the liner TT made the liner PM
                  11. Alexfly
                    Alexfly 26 May 2020 14: 58 New
                    0
                    Well? Why is it bad to do anything else more interesting?
                  12. ssergey1978
                    ssergey1978 26 May 2020 17: 42 New
                    0
                    Well? What's so good about her? What do you want good from a cartridge that appeared in the wake of the 80s of the 19th century. In 00 years of the 20th century, they realized the fallacy and removed this caliber from pistols, but you still can’t forget it.
                  13. Alexfly
                    Alexfly 28 May 2020 18: 25 New
                    0
                    Fallacy? In what? In mass? By the way, this is one of the most powerful pistol cartridges ...
                  14. ssergey1978
                    ssergey1978 28 May 2020 20: 04 New
                    0
                    AND? The fallacy in the following is always the caliber of rifles and pistols was also the same when inventing homeless gunpowder and in 1880-1900 invented a lot of pistols and revolvers 7-8 mm, but soon came to the conclusion that with a cylindrical cartridge case the cartridge is weak, and with bottle power not in demand , efficiency is low, and weapons are more complex.
                  15. Alexfly
                    Alexfly 29 May 2020 10: 30 New
                    0
                    And so in the 2000s, a family of 5,7x28, 4,6x30, etc. appeared.
                    Development proceeds in a spiral, needs have appeared and has become necessary for the emergence of new ammunition. So it’s too early to write off this sleeve, it may come in handy.
                  16. ssergey1978
                    ssergey1978 29 May 2020 12: 27 New
                    0
                    These above listed cartridges do not linger, this is only an attempt no more. The pistol caliber is without promising. The pistol loses its inherent qualities as a prostate, reliability, resource and efficiency, but does not acquire anything but problems. Since the speed is not sufficient for the whirling effect. A somewhat increased breakdown force, and 9 pair with a special bullet sews well but does not lose OD.
              2. konchitawurst
                konchitawurst 30 May 2020 20: 34 New
                -1
                In 20 years, our commission also came to the conclusion that the adoption of a 9 mm Para cartridge is the best option.
  3. bunta
    bunta 23 May 2020 09: 27 New
    +1
    You would bring the data for another kilometer. Pistol cartridges are designed for use in PP at a distance of up to 200 meters. Here are the test data for April 45g. Distance 200 meters, 30 shots, 6 boards. Through penetrations of PPSh - 27, MP-40 - 20. Source - Noblemen.
  4. mr.ZinGer
    mr.ZinGer 24 May 2020 16: 42 New
    0
    I found this table, undertook to check with a pencil with a calculator, the numbers do not beat.
    The ballistic coefficient is different for different distances. And when calculating the formula for changing the speed and the formula based on the mass, diameter and shape of the bullet, completely different values ​​are obtained.
  5. ssergey1978
    ssergey1978 24 May 2020 16: 51 New
    0
    This table has been verified by many experts. What formulas you use, I do not know. These tables are taken from official sources and instructions. Do not forget that the ammunition equipment has a large number of especially 9 pairs, the weight of the bullet fluctuates in a large range as well as the bulkoff
  6. mr.ZinGer
    mr.ZinGer 24 May 2020 19: 12 New
    0
    If you take the change in speed in the area 0-100 and then 0-200 the BALLISTIC coefficient has a different value, but this should not be. Ball. odds there is const.
  7. ssergey1978
    ssergey1978 24 May 2020 19: 22 New
    0
    Assuming the bullet is not stabilized? That is, at a distance of over 100 meters, disturbances begin in it? Of course I am too lazy to delve into, so just throwing. If it’s not a secret, what is your interest in external balistic?
  8. mr.ZinGer
    mr.ZinGer 24 May 2020 19: 36 New
    0
    This topic is unfamiliar to me, and therefore interesting.
    So thank you.
  9. ssergey1978
    ssergey1978 24 May 2020 19: 42 New
    0
    On the Hanseatic League there are specialized sections on realoding and yispishnikov. To you there. And so buy a gun and go to the shooting range. Then the ballistic will move into a more useful channel regarding your weapons. Successes. We can talk in the open spaces of the Hansa, though it has not been there for a long time. And I haven’t been to the shooting range for a long time.
  10. Alexfly
    Alexfly 23 May 2020 11: 09 New
    0


    You are right, the less pointed the bullet, the greater its resistance when it stops (bullet deformation is also possible) 6 and therefore the stopping action.
  • konchitawurst
    konchitawurst 30 May 2020 20: 30 New
    -1
    They had energy equal to 50 meters of flight — to 100 meters there was no advantage for the TT bullet. 9mm it retained inertia better due to the large mass of the bullet. There was no particular advantage for the TT bullet before 9 Steam
  • My doctor
    My doctor 23 May 2020 14: 52 New
    0
    Quote: ssergey1978
    If you do not understand the elementary why climb out? To save energy on the trajectory, this means the bullet spends less energy on overcoming a certain distance

    About seven years ago such a pearl could still surprise or make laugh. Now it's the norm
    1. ssergey1978
      ssergey1978 23 May 2020 20: 11 New
      +1
      And why exactly seven years? Seven years ago, someone in the forest died?
  • svp67
    svp67 23 May 2020 09: 14 New
    0
    Quote: ssergey1978
    9pair better stores energy on the trajectory, also more severe injuries, healing of wounds from steam is longer.

    It all depends on the range. The fired bullet from the PPSh saved energy, and therefore flew a little further
  • Zeev Zeev
    Zeev Zeev 22 May 2020 21: 36 New
    0
    Penetration is greater, less striking. Mauser bullet from PPSh inflicted less dangerous wounds than 9x19 Parabellum.
    1. Alexander Seklitsky
      Alexander Seklitsky 25 May 2020 21: 00 New
      0
      Quote: Zeev Zeev
      Penetration is greater, less striking. Mauser bullet from PPSh inflicted less dangerous wounds than 9x19 Parabellum.

      but only, given the rate of fire, at the same time you will get two bullets. This thereby increasing the likelihood of death
  • sergo1914
    sergo1914 22 May 2020 17: 42 New
    +9
    The author quotes a very remarkable two-volume book on small arms. There is also the Today volume. Very competent and detailed work. This should be in every library.
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 22 May 2020 19: 53 New
      +4
      And what, in this "wonderful two-volume" and written about what is not? I mean the nonsense called MP-41 (r).
      1. sergo1914
        sergo1914 22 May 2020 21: 19 New
        -5
        Quote: Sea Cat
        And what, in this "wonderful two-volume" and written about what is not? I mean the nonsense called MP-41 (r).


        You read a book. And then carry all the nonsense.
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 22 May 2020 21: 43 New
          +2
          I don’t need to poke, I didn’t drink vodka with you and I’m not going to do it. And read books, since real samples are not available to you, "specialist" from a plush sofa. fool
          1. sergo1914
            sergo1914 22 May 2020 22: 53 New
            -8
            Quote: Sea Cat
            I don’t need to poke, I didn’t drink vodka with you and I’m not going to do it. And read books, since real samples are not available to you, "specialist" from a plush sofa. fool


            I repeat. Read the article on PCA in this book. Then carry nonsense, expert. However, it’s too early for you to read such books, Rambo cardboard. Yes, and mom, I suppose, will not give money. They are dear.
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 23 May 2020 06: 23 New
              +6
              My mother died in 1984. And you are not just a boor, you are also a fool, just talking in a similar way to people completely unfamiliar to you. At one time, your ancestors should not have regretted the chervonets for an extra abortion.
              1. sergo1914
                sergo1914 23 May 2020 06: 57 New
                -6
                Quote: Sea Cat
                My mother died in 1984. And you are not just a boor, you are also a fool, just talking in a similar way to people completely unfamiliar to you. At one time, your ancestors should not have regretted the chervonets for an extra abortion.


                Again. Article. About PPSh. From the specified book. And then bring nonsense, sucked up from nowhere.
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 23 May 2020 06: 59 New
                  +2
                  Sorry, but you yourself suck out what you like from what you like. laughing
      2. Petrik66
        Petrik66 22 May 2020 22: 11 New
        0
        You don’t understand anything. Comrades took trophies, shot from them, this is a fact. But, then our political workers in letters from corpses in Stalingrad found the information about this magical PPSh. It is about how these bastards children were afraid of him and dreamed of having such a house.
  • KVU-NSVD
    KVU-NSVD 22 May 2020 17: 54 New
    0
    Himmler gave the green light to modify the PPSh for the standard 9x19 mm cartridge used in the Wehrmacht. The new weapon was called MP-41 (r).
    It would be interesting to shoot and compare with ours (from this I had to)
    1. Sancho_SP
      Sancho_SP 22 May 2020 18: 34 New
      +1
      Fenced under 9 mm sold as a hunter.
      1. KVU-NSVD
        KVU-NSVD 22 May 2020 18: 49 New
        0
        Quote: Sancho_SP
        Fenced under 9 mm sold as a hunter.

        Yes ? I didn’t know .. I should search for friends and publications. But all the same, in the KO version he is an embossed toy. poyuzat in a combat version ..
  • ssergey1978
    ssergey1978 22 May 2020 17: 57 New
    +2
    The article was written by an amateur. PPSh had advantages. But the wooden butt is rather a flaw. The disc is also not ice, it was soon abandoned. 7.62 TT is also probably not an ice, the bullet quickly lost energy and already at a distance of 200 it lost 9PARA of about 50 J. Rate of fire 900. definitely a drawback (overheating, cartridge overruns, worse control) And PPSh is a good machine, working.
    1. Alf
      Alf 22 May 2020 18: 32 New
      +6
      Quote: ssergey1978
      But the wooden butt is rather a flaw.

      What is the disadvantage?
      Quote: ssergey1978
      and already at a distance of 200 9PAIR was losing about 50 J.

      Believe me, it’s enough to perforate a person; there was no BZ then.
      Quote: ssergey1978
      cartridge overrun,

      But the density of fire ...
      1. ssergey1978
        ssergey1978 22 May 2020 18: 38 New
        -3
        Throw a berdank with a wooden butt behind your back and run through the forest, the answer will come by itself. J is not only a hole in it, but PP has initially little energy and the loss on the trajectory is sad.
        1. Alf
          Alf 22 May 2020 18: 52 New
          +5
          Quote: ssergey1978
          Throw a berdank with a wooden butt behind your back and run through the forest, the answer will come by itself.

          Weight affects accuracy, a wooden butt in a melee is an indispensable thing, aiming is more reliable. Not ?
          Quote: ssergey1978
          7.62 TT is also probably not an ice, the bullet quickly lost energy and already at a distance of 200 it lost 9PARA of about 50 J.



          Where is the weaker cartridge there?
          1. ssergey1978
            ssergey1978 22 May 2020 19: 09 New
            -3
            This place is 200 meters from the trunk
        2. Alexfly
          Alexfly 22 May 2020 19: 07 New
          +2
          And I walked, and I walk, and God forbid, I will still walk and carry the "Berdan" ...
      2. Catfish
        Catfish 22 May 2020 20: 06 New
        +2
        But the density of fire ...

        But the overheating of the barrel, after the shooting of the first disc, the PPSh began to "spit". In addition, difficulties with disk equipment, capriciousness of supplying cartridges in frost or dusty summer.
        He had nothing to do but was replaced by a sector store.
        But the wooden butt is rather a flaw.
        What is the disadvantage?

        But the p / p with a wooden butt is not necessary for everyone, tankers are just such a hindrance.
        1. hohol95
          hohol95 22 May 2020 20: 47 New
          +2
          Good evening, Constantine! And "Suomi" did not "get sick" with such shortcomings -
          But the overheating of the barrel, after the shooting of the first disc, the PPSh began to "spit". In addition, difficulties with disk equipment, capriciousness of supplying cartridges in frost or dusty summer.
          .
          It is clear that the PPSh or PPD were "uncomfortable" for tankers. But just with TT or "Nagan" they were even worse!
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 22 May 2020 20: 55 New
            +1
            Hi Aleksey! hi
            "Suomi", an infection, was heavy, there was even a milled barrel cover. It was not possible to shoot with it, but it was possible to compare it by weight with PPSh, and it turned out not in favor of the Finn.
            But just with TT or "Nagan" they were even worse!

            Well, we took this into account, both the designer, and the "above", and, in spite of everything, in the midst of the war there was a PPS. And since a new sample is put into production during the war, it means that there is an urgent need.
            1. hohol95
              hohol95 22 May 2020 21: 10 New
              +1
              I wrote a comment at the end of the thread. Read it, Constantine. hi
        2. AllBiBek
          AllBiBek 22 May 2020 22: 00 New
          +2
          The Izhevsk residents posted a video for so long ago, where they shoot all the stores that were found from the PPSh in a row. Two discs, three dozen horns, and another disc.

          He began to spit towards the end of all the horns, and the first delay - like the second, and the third - on the last disk. Because of the disk, moreover.
        3. Siberian54
          Siberian54 23 May 2020 14: 04 New
          0
          Recently, the video was watched-shot at overheating, somewhere from the tenth disk it overheated .. Almost a machine gun-700 shots ..
    2. Borz
      Borz 22 May 2020 18: 39 New
      +2
      Regarding the wooden butt: I read something like the recollections of one of the fighters, and so he said that cases when the butt of the PPSh cracked as a result of a blow to a helmets wrapped in a helmet were quite common. In the heat of hand-to-hand fighting, choosing a place of impact was somehow a leisure.
    3. Alexfly
      Alexfly 22 May 2020 19: 03 New
      +1
      And who shot at 200 meters? Pistol cartridges for this are not calculated! A canopy of what? Count the excess .....
      1. ssergey1978
        ssergey1978 22 May 2020 19: 15 New
        +3
        For two hundred meters, they shoot from the PP, moreover, they shoot at the shooting range from the hunting PPSh at 300.
        1. The comment was deleted.
          1. ssergey1978
            ssergey1978 22 May 2020 19: 50 New
            0
            Broes nonsense fence. The distance of 200 meters is scanty, on the PPSh and on the rear sight 100 and 200 the MT is hard to make a mistake, and the main one is not a mortar trajectory, there are no terrible errors.
        2. Alexfly
          Alexfly 22 May 2020 19: 58 New
          0
          put a 2-inch board at 200 meters, make a shot, hit it, and then post a photo here and we will discuss the energy of bullets ....
          1. ssergey1978
            ssergey1978 22 May 2020 20: 07 New
            0
            And why argue this is your destiny. At a distance of 200, 7.62x25 energy will have 170 railways, and 9 pairs will have 220j. I shoot Saiga MK 7.62x39 no PCA.
            1. Alexander Seklitsky
              Alexander Seklitsky 25 May 2020 21: 09 New
              0
              Quote: ssergey1978
              why argue this is your destiny. At a distance of 200, 7.62x25 energy will have 170 railways, and 9 pairs will have 220j. I shoot

              At 200 meters, a 9 mm bullet simply does not reach. There is already no flatness.
              1. ssergey1978
                ssergey1978 26 May 2020 05: 06 New
                0
                And the whole world doesn’t know. And what kind of flatness? You would not be dishonored. It is clear that most of the inhabitants of Weapons were seen periodically but stupid then why write
  • svp67
    svp67 22 May 2020 17: 57 New
    +3
    Since the number of submachine guns and machine guns in the units of the Wehrmacht was, contrary to widespread myth, smaller than in the Red Army,
    Here the author involuntarily cast a "shadow on the fence". The fact is that at that time submachine guns bore the proud name machine gun, so here you have to write "pistols or machine guns" and then this is really correct. Since the "Vyatskiye Polyany" PPSh alone produced more than three and a half million.
    But if there are "submachine guns and machine guns", then this is the question. And then what is meant by "automatic"? That is, a manual individual rapid-fire weapon chambered for a rifle or intermediate cartridge. And there are not many answers here, and it is such that there were plenty of them in the German army, but in the Soviet army, such weapons appeared only after the war.
    In general, the Germans, who were in battles with the Red Army, quickly appreciated the advantages of the Soviet machine gun, and began to arm themselves with captured items. The captured PCA were adopted by the German army under the index MP 717 (r).



    The German industry even released a kind of invader kit: a barrel for PPSh under a 9 mm Parabellum cartridge and an adapter frame for stores from MP-40. Such converted PPSh were designated MP 41 (r).


    From 11 minutes of the 40th second ...
    It is worth noting that the SS men preferred PPSh without alterations.
  • alex aircraft
    alex aircraft 22 May 2020 18: 25 New
    +4
    Front-line soldiers rarely equipped a 71-cartridge disc. Often there was a misalignment of the cartridge and the spring weakened over time. Therefore, we equipped 50-55 rounds of ammunition. 35-arm cartridges were much more reliable
    1. Cetron
      Cetron 22 May 2020 20: 16 New
      -4
      I still can not understand the logic. With the simplicity of the design and low cost of production of PPSh, such hemorrhoids with a disk: individual adjustment, inconvenience of loading, heavy weight, etc. What design thought was not enough? Or so that the service of honey did not seem to the Russian soldier? And so in all the armaments of the USSR of that time, an excellent example, upon closer examination, it smells like dermis!
      Little dirty trick or nonsense?
      The question is generally rhetorical.
      1. bairat
        bairat 22 May 2020 21: 04 New
        +2
        Simplicity allowed the basic work to be done on the basis of workshops. Stamping, welding. With the appropriate level of workers. Hence the range of sizes and individual fit.
      2. AllBiBek
        AllBiBek 22 May 2020 22: 05 New
        -1
        No.
        As always, they overtook and overtook the damned capitalists.
        In this particular case, the Finns. They could make a tambourine without a throat on a cartridge more than those for Suomi, and PP is easier than Suomi. Actually, PPD-40.

        And after this tambourine migrated to PPSh. Well, how did you migrate? Individual Russian fit of two pieces to each trunk the first year and a half of production.
      3. Sahalinets
        Sahalinets 23 May 2020 00: 08 New
        0
        Yes, it’s just that the Finns saw the Suomi PP with a disk of 70 rounds and ordered to do more without fail. And all sorts of minor questions about convenience did not bother the high authorities.
      4. svp67
        svp67 23 May 2020 09: 23 New
        0
        Quote: Cetron
        With the simplicity of the design and low cost of production of PPSh, such hemorrhoids with a disk: individual adjustment, inconvenience of loading, heavy weight, etc. What design thought was not enough?
        In addition to the "design thought" there is also a "customer requirement". The disk store is from this "opera". Moreover, the requirement was to maximize the use of the design of such a disk used on the Finnish PP "Suomi", so we have disks on the PPD and PCA.
        Quote: Cetron
        And so in all the armaments of the USSR of that time, an excellent example, upon closer examination, it smells like dermis!

        And with what weapon of which country is wrong, at that time, and even now? Everywhere "smelled and smelled like crap."
      5. Alexfly
        Alexfly 23 May 2020 18: 43 New
        0
        I understand that the problems were with the springs for the stores, could not adapt them or something else. I can’t say for sure, unfortunately ..
  • Alf
    Alf 22 May 2020 18: 29 New
    +6
    I am surprised at the Germans.
    They praise our submachine guns, they don’t know about our Iksperds, like it wouldn’t be the night before the remembered Karbayn-Zeus, who spit this very PCA from top to bottom.
    By the way, a rare photo with a burnt Valentine.
  • Undecim
    Undecim 22 May 2020 18: 37 New
    +5
    The new weapon was called MP-41 (r).
    Such weapons did not exist in nature. There was a Hugo Schmeisser MP-41 submachine gun.

    MP 717 (r) under the cartridge 9x19 mm did not have a separate designation.
    Still: 900 rounds per minute from PPSh against 500 from MP - is there a difference? ..
    The figures indicated are the rate of fire, that is, the rate of fire theoretically possible for this design.
    In real conditions, they use such a characteristic as practical rate of fire.
    PPSh-41 has a practical rate of fire when shooting with single shots - 30 rounds per minute, in short bursts - 70 rounds per minute, in long bursts - 100 rounds per minute.
    The MP-40 has a practical rate of fire in short bursts - 50 rounds per minute, long 80-90.
    1. hohol95
      hohol95 22 May 2020 19: 22 New
      +1
      practical rate of fire.

      Battle?
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 22 May 2020 19: 29 New
        +1
        I just wrote on the MP-40 from the German manual, they have a practical one. The point is the same.
    2. Catfish
      Catfish 22 May 2020 19: 49 New
      +4
      Vic, good evening! hi
      It’s good that I read the comments to the end, otherwise I would also go over the author and the mythical subscriber MP-41 (r)
      Below is MP 717 (r) along with MP-40.
    3. AllBiBek
      AllBiBek 22 May 2020 22: 09 New
      0
      You are so-so with knowledge of the hardware of the issue, and the desire to develop it, since feel free to drive the specified name into Google, namely MP-717. Even without the "r".

      These reworked for SS PPSh under the box from MP-38 in runet are sucked even in more detail than MP-41.
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 22 May 2020 22: 11 New
        -1
        Can you articulate your thoughts clearly? What did someone suck and what did you want to say?
        1. AllBiBek
          AllBiBek 22 May 2020 23: 04 New
          0
          Yes, it’s as if I see that I’m not the first one who hasn’t read the comment to the end) It happens.
          1. Undecim
            Undecim 22 May 2020 23: 10 New
            +1
            Yeah, okay. Until the end, not everyone can read the comment. Rather, not only everyone can read it. Few can do this.
  • 7,62h54
    7,62h54 22 May 2020 18: 57 New
    -10
    And for defense, there was nothing better than the three-line, especially with an attached bayonet.
    1. hohol95
      hohol95 22 May 2020 19: 24 New
      +8
      And for defense, there was nothing better than the three-line, especially with an attached bayonet.
      Especially if this "mosinka" is actually SVT or ABC. And behind the back is the M-30 battery. And even further is the ML-20 battery! A T-34 brigade is in ambush! Etc...
      1. bairat
        bairat 22 May 2020 21: 07 New
        +2
        And the enemy goes on the attack from three hundred meters in full growth. Then yes, shooting gallery.
  • hohol95
    hohol95 22 May 2020 19: 19 New
    +2
    Himmler gave the go-ahead to modify the PPSh for the standard 9x19 mm cartridge used in the Wehrmacht.

    Maybe in the Waffen SS?
    The alteration began in 1944 and was carried out in the weapons workshops of the Dachau concentration camp, in total about 10 thousand were produced.
  • polpot
    polpot 22 May 2020 19: 22 New
    +2
    PPSh jigsaw of Stalin, a weapon of the era.
  • acetophenon
    acetophenon 22 May 2020 20: 21 New
    0
    I remember that in the USSR-ovskie times at the NVP at school, the military instructor gave me a PPSh to "play". Sawed trunk. The firing pin is cut. But the rest is in place. I took it in my hands and went nuts - what a rough piece of iron. After the "Kalashnikov" something! And when he opened it, he ran to the military officer with a question, they say, where is everything else inside, except for a piece of iron on a spring. wassat DP is not so surprised. A Mosin rifle ... It only liked the bayonet lol Well, then I was 15 years old ...
  • hohol95
    hohol95 22 May 2020 21: 08 New
    +3
    Dear VO participants!
    We compare a lot of different types of weapons with which our ancestors and their enemies fought!
    And you yourself, what would you prefer in the submachine gun category to the beginning of World War II?
    PPD-34 (box magazine 25)
    PPD-34/38 / PPD-40 (drum magazine for 73 rounds, later 71 rounds)
    PPSh-41 (drum 71 cartridge)
    Kirali submachine gun (box magazine for 40 rounds; 4,46 kg (equipped))
    Thompson submachine gun (box magazines for 20 and 30 rounds (0,2 kg) drum magazines for 50 or 100 rounds; 4,9 (empty, M1928A1), 4,5 (empty, M1A1))
    Beretta MAB 38 (magazines for 10, 20, 30 and 40 rounds; 4,2 (MAB 38A, empty); 4,7 (MAB 38A, equipped), 3,27 (MAB 38/42, empty), 3,25 (MAB 38/49, empty))
    MAS 38 (2,87 (empty) 3,56 (charged), box magazine with 32 rounds)
    MP28 (4 kg, in-line magazine for 20 or 32 rounds)
    Steyr-Solothurn S1-100 (box magazine for 20 or 32 rounds, 3,5 (without magazine))
    STEN (box magazine for 32 rounds, 3,18 kg)
    Suomi-konepistooli M / 31 (box magazine for 20, 36, 50 rounds; drum for 40 or 70 rounds, 4,6 kg)
    Our ancestors fought what the USSR industry gave them. And with this weapon they won.
    And you, their descendants are free to choose what you like ...
    By the fact that the rank and file infantry of the Red Army with PPSh or PPD, PPS reached the other Reichstag in Berlin ...
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 22 May 2020 21: 37 New
      +2
      My purely personal opinion is the best submachine gun of the Second World War - PPS-43 designed by Alexei Sudaev.

      If we talk about the very beginning of the Great Patriotic War, I would prefer the MP-40, a reliable store, a low rate of fire and the famous "German quality".
      1. hohol95
        hohol95 22 May 2020 21: 49 New
        +3
        Then, Konstantin, you would have to "take" the MP-40 thanks to "something Soviet"!
        From a knife to a hand grenade. hi
        And constantly look for cartridges and spare magazines (they would even gut the pockets of killed German officers for "extra" cartridges) for their MP-40.
      2. AllBiBek
        AllBiBek 22 May 2020 22: 10 New
        +2
        About a reliable store - you’ve bent it ..).

        His more than 25 bullets were not stuffed from their lack. And the twin springs in it, too, were not massively set up from a good life.
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 23 May 2020 06: 35 New
          0
          Pair springs set to reduce the rate of fire. And the Schmeiser store was copied by everyone who was not lazy, of those who were armed with a 9x19 pistol cartridge.
          1. AllBiBek
            AllBiBek 23 May 2020 12: 44 New
            0
            Schmeiser - to slow down? Where can I further reduce it?) There is not even a translator of fire modes, as unnecessary.

            He has a congenital disease - a skew in the output, this is a standard sore when rebuilding in one row. That's just the neck of the receiver is already flimsy, and it was also loosened, due to the fact that you need to hold onto your left hand for something while firing, and the barrel there is like that king, naked, and the special glove on your left hand is not dressed is always.

            And also the feed spring sagged significantly in the cold, so two springs are a more frequent occurrence in winter positions.
      3. AllBiBek
        AllBiBek 22 May 2020 22: 29 New
        +2
        Jumping he.
        The fee for simplicity, slowing down the rate of fire - stupidly due to the shutter step.

        MP is also jumping, it has no compensator at all. The exact relative is stupid due to the cartridge, and due to the mass, the MP without a magazine is almost half a kilogram heavier than the PPS without it.
      4. Thunderbolt
        Thunderbolt 22 May 2020 23: 58 New
        +1
        Quote: Sea Cat
        My purely personal opinion is the best submachine gun of the Second World War - PPS-43 designed by Alexei Sudaev.

        Argument your opinion against a German car, if you can, or is it your aesthetic opinion?
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 23 May 2020 10: 14 New
          +1
          This is not only my opinion, but also the opinion of the Germans themselves, because after the war, in western Germany, they successfully copied the PPS under the name "Dux" and chambered for 9x19, adopted it into service with their border guards. And for some reason they "forgot" about their 38/40.
          1. AllBiBek
            AllBiBek 23 May 2020 12: 46 New
            0
            Well, nevertheless, the Spaniards brought to mind the MP (they stood on the arsenal after the WWII for a quarter of a century), and in its pure form, Turkey copied it.

            True, the post-war number of PPP clones in the same Asia - for the release of more at times and dozens of times.
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 23 May 2020 12: 54 New
              +1
              Interestingly about the Turkish MR, if not difficult, discard the link where you can look. And I know the Spanish STAR series - for sure, they licked off the German "forty".
              1. AllBiBek
                AllBiBek 23 May 2020 12: 58 New
                +1
                On the Hansa, the post-war clones of the German arrows were somehow discussed, and from there it was postponed.
                It seems like subsequently surfaced in Africa and the BV.
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 23 May 2020 13: 01 New
                  +1
                  Thank you, I’ll try to search, I have never heard of the Turks. They copied Walter PP, I know, but I would like to see the gloomy Turkish genius with MRishka. hi
                  1. AllBiBek
                    AllBiBek 23 May 2020 13: 06 New
                    +1
                    The "History of Weapons" section, most likely even its archive. About five years ago, the topic was, if not more. And not a profile one, it just slipped into this steppe.
      5. bunta
        bunta 23 May 2020 10: 01 New
        0
        Quote: Sea Cat
        reliable boutiques
        ? !!
        http://weaponland.ru/publ/mp_38_prichiny_otkazov_oshibka_pri_konstruirovanii/7-1-0-53
    2. AllBiBek
      AllBiBek 22 May 2020 22: 37 New
      0
      You missed two very massive Germans.
      MP-35 and ZK-323

      He held only mock-ups in his hands, but - both lay very, very comfortable. Even more comfortable than PPSh.
  • bairat
    bairat 22 May 2020 21: 12 New
    +3
    In a German company, there may have been fewer machine guns, but each compartment had a machine gun, followed by the main firepower.
  • Thunderbolt
    Thunderbolt 22 May 2020 23: 49 New
    +1
    Where is the article How the Soviet military spoke about the captured MP named "Schmeiser"
  • bistrov.
    bistrov. 23 May 2020 04: 57 New
    +1
    The author is confusing or fantasizing. In the infantry units of the Wehrmacht, the shooters ("Schütze") were not armed with a submachine gun. Their standard weapon was the Mauser 98K carbine. The infantry squad had only one submachine gun, the squad leader. And this is not necessarily MP-38-40. There were also other systems. They were still in service with the commanders of infantry platoons and company commanders. And in general, in the infantry department, everything was built around the machine gun.
    Even the soldiers of the Wehrmacht airborne units had the same Mauser carbine, only a different modification 33/40 (t) with a folding stock, the mountain-jaeger units were armed with the same 33
    / 40, only in its own modification, their butt on one side was bound with a special metal plate and had a "galosh" type rear plate, i.e. it could be used as an apel stock.
    Yes, the PPSh was a good weapon, but it had many shortcomings, it was difficult, the initial disk magazines for 71 rounds had an individual fit, they were very time-consuming to equip, they often had skewed cartridges, they had their own difficulties with cartridge case extraction, an unreliable fuse, and even the free shutter principle had flaws. According to instructions, the store was to be inserted with the cocked shutter and immediately had to open fire, if not, it was necessary to put the cocked shutter on the fuse, which, if dropped, accidentally engaged, and even if it was simply working out, could go out of the socket and a spontaneous shot occurred . In addition, when the shutter was cocked, extraneous objects often fell into the hole for extracting the sleeve, which is located on top and is not covered by anything, and caused delays in firing. If the shutter was put on the fuse in the deflated state, the magazine did not fall into place and the latch could not to close. On the other hand, the PPSh had a longer range and better accuracy of fire than other pps due to the powerful 7,62x25mm cartridge and had practically no recoil since it had an effective muzzle brake-compensator in the casing itself. And most importantly, its high manufacturability. All its parts, except the barrel (defective Mosin rifle trunks went to the barrels), a very simple shutter (essentially blanks) and a couple of USM parts that required mechanical processing were made by stamping, so a quick release of PPSh was organized at once at several enterprises and the Red Army received a powerful automatic weapon, which was very convenient in close combat. On the other hand, with a single shot the enemy could be hit at a distance of up to 300 meters. Who knows, at such a distance, even from a rifle to hit the target is not so simple. Therefore, in the rifle division of the Red Army, half of the riflemen armed with rifles, half with submachine guns. Tankers had it in service
    Therefore, the PPSh-41 was released during the war years in an amount of more than 6 million, not a single country in the world has produced such a number of submachine guns.
    PCA was in service with the Soviet army and border troops until almost 90 years, and fought in almost all armed conflicts in Asia, Africa and America. In some places it is still used.
    1. AllBiBek
      AllBiBek 23 May 2020 13: 12 New
      0
      It does not confuse and does not fantasize, it’s just the Germans.
      The Wehrmacht is one thing, but the SS is another. Most of the pictures where the Germans with PPSh - that’s what they are.

      The SS generally liked PP, all kinds of exotic type MP-35 or Czech ZK-323 only went there. MP-41, emnip, was also sucked in by him, until he was seized and given to the Romanians.

      Transferred PPSh under 9 Luger and a store from MP - this is also for the SS and not for the Volkssturm.

      Although I didn’t meet people who understand Volkssturm grades in nature, maybe he had his own in the SS, and in each division.
  • Nikolaevich I
    Nikolaevich I 23 May 2020 08: 47 New
    +1
    900 rounds per minute from PPSh against 500 from MP Well, actually, in various sources they usually write: PPSh - (900-1000) / min. ; MP-40 - (400-500) in / min. .... occurs even: (350-400) in / min.
    MP-41 (r)? Well, maybe...! But there was such an MP-41!
    But MP-41 (r) (and maybe MP-717 ...) looked like this ...
    And there are also allegations that the Germans began to remake the PPSh under the 9x19 mm cartridge at the end of the war, when they needed weapons for the Volkssturm ... and until then the PPSh and the Mauser cartridge of 7,63x25 mm were not converted ...
    1. AllBiBek
      AllBiBek 23 May 2020 12: 51 New
      0
      PPSh really does not have a stable rate of fire, it floats in a good such limit from batch to batch and from manufacturer to manufacturer and depending on the degree of wear of the mechanism.

      The realities of mass military production from the iron that is available.
      1. mmaxx
        mmaxx 24 May 2020 07: 26 New
        0
        In general, the way it should be. The regulator of rate of fire is essentially only a spring. A spring with stable characteristics is now a difficult task to make, and during the war it is generally impossible. Yes, and to nothing.
  • Pavel57
    Pavel57 23 May 2020 09: 00 New
    +1
    Reducing the rate of fire with submachine guns was one of the main tasks of gunsmiths.
    1. prodi
      prodi 23 May 2020 11: 51 New
      0
      it was not necessary to reduce the rate of fire - a cutoff for three rounds was needed
    2. AllBiBek
      AllBiBek 23 May 2020 12: 53 New
      0
      Yes, she still hasn’t gone anywhere).
  • Nikolai Redko
    Nikolai Redko 23 May 2020 13: 24 New
    0
    There are many PCA shooting videos. Surprising accuracy and pace. Those. the compensator fulfills its role at 100%. Yes, it’s heavy, but the disk store was not convenient to replace and generally capricious. But 71 rounds. And most importantly, in war: the ability to produce almost in a workshop. The most difficult element is the manufacture of the barrel.
    1. AllBiBek
      AllBiBek 23 May 2020 13: 37 New
      0
      By the way, no, in the conditions of workshops - especially partisan ones - they nevertheless preferred to use the PDP as the basis. For the milling machine can still be replaced with a file (even if this is a long time), and you can get bicycles as the primary source of raw materials, but you can bend the rectangular casing, and before that cut oval holes in it - this is only at a full-fledged enterprise, and not at one .
  • IMHO and DOT
    IMHO and DOT 23 May 2020 16: 08 New
    +2
    Oh, do not star you in vain. Did any of the commentators hold the PCA in their hands? Have you outfitted the store? Have you done at least one shot? Do not use - do not write. All your arguments are based on the stories of veterans, unfortunately, recently, more and more often mummers. Shpagin created a great machine for his time. The rest - go ahead.
    1. AllBiBek
      AllBiBek 24 May 2020 10: 36 New
      0
      You know, we have a proverb: "The most experienced specialist on any expedition is a student after the second year, who completed the mandatory internship that season."

      Here you have - which shot from the PCA? And bursts? And not from pneumatics?
  • xomaNN
    xomaNN 23 May 2020 16: 30 New
    +1
    The gunsmiths considered excessive rate of fire of 1000 / min. And according to the fighting experience, our gunsmith Sudaev in his submachine gun slowed down to 600 rds / min. His teaching staff after 1943 was the best!
    1. AllBiBek
      AllBiBek 24 May 2020 10: 14 New
      0
      Uh-huh.
      And that is precisely why of the nearly one million stamped in Leningrad, less than half went into the troops. More than half a million went to the warehouses right away, and nowadays it’s either mmg, then pneumatic, or remelting ....
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 25 May 2020 19: 50 New
        0
        Quote: AllBiBek
        And that is precisely why of the nearly one million stamped in Leningrad, less than half went into the troops.

        Are the statistics the same for Moscow and Tbilisi faculty?
    2. Dmitry V.
      Dmitry V. 25 May 2020 11: 14 New
      0
      Quote: xomaNN
      His teaching staff after 1943 was the best!


      That's right, only the teaching staff of the besieged 1943 is poorly done.
      After breaking the blockade, the quality grew.
  • Alexey G
    Alexey G 24 May 2020 03: 00 New
    0
    All this suggests that our weapon in 1941 was no worse than German, so the Soviet soldier was let down by the inability to use weapons. As for the disk, the principle of the disk store itself is still applied on the AK-12, for example!

    The benefit is that the machine becomes a mini-machine gun and in some hot situations, for example, in a defensive battle, when you need to put the advancing infantry, tearing into the trenches drive steeper than the horn!
    Therefore, the Fritz wore disks and horns to him, depending on the situation on the battlefield.
    1. mmaxx
      mmaxx 24 May 2020 07: 44 New
      +1
      Fans of disks and complex weapons should visit a normal army like that. You need to understand that war is just terrible fatigue and dirt. And cleaning and fussing with weapons is the last thing a soldier needs.
      And as I imagine that it is necessary to carry and charge the disk store, I ask a simple question: "Why the heck?" The horn is more practical. Moreover, the PPSh is still a piece of wood in terms of weight and ease of carrying.
      In PPSh drives only fit a specific machine. And the horns were rather weak, a product of wartime. The walls were bent, etc., cartridges were not fed. It is clear why the Germans dragged both of them. You can’t charge a disk quickly, therefore you can reserve the horns.
    2. AllBiBek
      AllBiBek 24 May 2020 13: 32 New
      0
      Uh, sorry, of course, but what were the fritzs and discs and horns worn during WWII?
      1. Alexey G
        Alexey G 25 May 2020 00: 58 New
        0
        [Here is an example in this photo. Combination of a disk or a store. I read that the Viking used this combinationcenter][/ Center]
        1. AllBiBek
          AllBiBek 25 May 2020 01: 00 New
          0
          Well, at least try to stick this tambourine into this neck with this photo, just do not forget that a tambourine without a throat will not crawl into the neck, that’s nothing at all, it’s physics.
          1. Alexey G
            Alexey G 25 May 2020 01: 03 New
            0
            In the second half of the war, the undetermined number of captured PPSh-41 submachine guns was redone for firing with 9mm Parabellum cartridges and received the designation MP-41 (r).
            During refinement, the MP-41 (r) submachine gun received new 9 mm barrels and a slot for shops for the German MP-38 and MP-40 submachine guns with a capacity of 32 rounds. This alteration was reversible - it was possible to return the old barrel and shoot Soviet bullets.
            1. The comment was deleted.
              1. Alexey G
                Alexey G 25 May 2020 01: 20 New
                0
                This mouth is easily taken out!
              2. Alexey G
                Alexey G 25 May 2020 01: 27 New
                0
                https://youtu.be/nPhNCfto5Xs Вот посмотри там покажет...
          2. Alexey G
            Alexey G 25 May 2020 01: 23 New
            0
            Why insert a luger into a Mauser ??? Listen to the neck. I wanted to send a video of how they do it, but it didn’t work out! After you take out, you insert the disc either under the German cartridge or under the Russian, but then you need to change the barrel!
            1. AllBiBek
              AllBiBek 25 May 2020 01: 31 New
              0
              PPSh naturally replaces the barrel with the same - it's such a pleasure ...
              And then there is a chamber of a different geometry.
              Re-shamming a native tambourine under 9Pair or sculpting it from scratch is generally a perversion even for Germans and even in peacetime.

              A photo of this set was made already in the 21st century, and I even suspect who carried out this still life.
              1. Alexey G
                Alexey G 25 May 2020 01: 32 New
                0
                Look at the video, I dropped the address for you and the trunk on the PPSh changes when disassembling weapons it is not difficult!
              2. Alexey G
                Alexey G 25 May 2020 01: 34 New
                0
                https://youtu.be/wegmPPCkKb0 здесь показано как ствол снимать с ППШ
              3. Alexey G
                Alexey G 25 May 2020 01: 49 New
                0
                Anatoly. I just saw a video where a man took a barrel with PPSh in 5 minutes https://youtu.be/wegmPPCkKb0. Right here. The throat is pulled out in 2 seconds! And so the German became Russian. With a shortage of rounds in the environment is very convenient.
                If the Germans Germanized Russian, then turning it into Russian is even easier. The Germans made the barrel under our machine with its minimal changes. So cheaper. And it turned out.
                The Americans are making their assault rifles also with the ability to replace the barrel under Russian AK ammunition and there are no problems.
                1. AllBiBek
                  AllBiBek 25 May 2020 02: 59 New
                  0
                  Alex, yes how to say ...
                  The vast majority of PPSh of the Soviet military issue on the interchangeability of the main components or their parts - there is no talk at all, and can not go. It’s good there if the problem is solved by peeling in the literal sense. This is if they are their one batch and one plant.

                  With such initial, re-stocked and interchangeable set for a German store and ammunition - it is also individual.

                  More or less, this can be done with the PPSh of the so-called Iranian issue. They are slightly less than a million. There - yes, full-fledged factory production in accordance with all the rules and with all tolerances.

                  The problem is that they weren’t especially in the troops.

                  To allow 10 trophies to re-shoot is still possible. But so that to each one’s own iron also goes, and even replaced with the one under which it was reassigned ...

                  The Germans, of course, are perverts, but not so much ...
                  1. Alexey G
                    Alexey G 25 May 2020 03: 10 New
                    0
                    replaceable with the one under which it was reassigned ...

                    I suppose the Germans did nothing special. They made their insert according to the type of adapter with the ends for our disk! You remove it and insert the Russian disk. Like an adapter for an outlet. It remains to change the trunk, for this you do a complete disassembly of the PPSh. You take the Russian trunk and insert. They got the captured trunks. They took a batch of 10 pieces in 000m more. From our warehouses! So the Russian trunks were already there. They made their own exactly like ours but under their patron. Otherwise, the PPSh itself would have to be changed, and this is expensive, it is easier to make your trunk under the Russian mount. So I think they acted according to Logic. As a result, give the new barrel to the new machine, which he had before and deal with the end.
                    What is the advantage? For example, Demian cauldron! SS surrounded! Ammo is not enough! He removed the adapter, put the Russian barrel, took out the disks, collected cartridges from the killed Russians or from prisoners or from reinforcements captured from the Russians and you are armed and dangerous!
                    The idea is correct and modern! But Fritz developed many modern ideas! I don’t think you need to be surprised!
                    1. Dmitry V.
                      Dmitry V. 25 May 2020 10: 49 New
                      0
                      Quote: Alexey G
                      He removed the adapter, put the Russian barrel, took out the disks, collected cartridges from the killed Russians or from prisoners or from reinforcements captured from the Russians and you are armed and dangerous!


                      Well, it's a fantasy - to carry an extra kilogram of a removable barrel in the hope of getting surrounded :)) fantasy is a masochism to carry a useless barrel with you.
                      Those who served in the army know that the march is a few kilometers — so any kilogram by the end of the race is like a ton ... I want to throw everything away.

                      Yes, and eat up on captured ammunition - it is to remain without them at the most necessary moment and depend on accidents - this is not for the military.
                      There were few PPSh in rifle divisions, and there were even fewer rounds of ammunition, especially in battle.
                      1. Alexey G
                        Alexey G 25 May 2020 14: 05 New
                        0
                        Well, in the first place, the trunk hardly weighed 1 kg, taking into account the fact that the whole PCA without a store weighed 3,6 kg.
                        Secondly, the barrel can be damaged during fights, so the replacement will not be superfluous.
                        Thirdly
                        eat up trophy cartridges - it's left without them at the right time

                        Have you read the article ???
                        German soldiers were very happy when they got a trophy "small machine gun" Shpagin. Indeed, the company, as a former Wehrmacht soldier recalls, had an average of 15-20 assault rifles, and the rest of the soldiers were armed with carbines. Naturally, in this situation, the PCA, even with certain shortcomings, was still the best weapon.

                        The popularity of PPSh in the units of Hitler’s troops was so significant that in October 1942, SS Obergruppenführer Felix Martin Julius Steiner, commander of the Viking SS division, turned to Heinrich Himmler with a proposal to launch production of submachine guns similar to the Soviet PPS at German factories.

                        Thus, the Germans already used our PPSh41 without alteration, which means there were enough trophy cartridges.
                        And the Germans, as follows from the article, had 20 assault rifles per company. With the help of PPSh they wanted to strengthen their firepower.
                        A universal machine for its patrons and strangers is not a fantasy or masochism. You just didn’t fight. And they ran around with weapons. Which is not the same thing.
                        But getting into an operational environment is not a hope, but the reality of the second half of the war for the Germans, when they were surrounded more often than Russians.
                        In addition, the Soviet 7.62x25 cartridge was made on the basis of the Mauserian 7.63x25, which, in turn, was made from the weaker but geometrically almost identical 7.65x25 Borchard. The Nazis themselves willingly used captured PCA even without alteration, since it could shoot 7,63 mm Mauser cartridges. In fact, the 7,62x25 cartridge for PPSh (Shpagin), PPD (Degtyarev), PPS (Sudayev) and TT (Tokarev) is the slightly improved 7,63x25 from the legendary M96 Mauser.
                      2. Dmitry V.
                        Dmitry V. 25 May 2020 14: 33 New
                        0
                        Quote: Alexey G
                        Thus, the Germans already used our PPSh41 without alteration, which means there were enough trophy cartridges.


                        Sit on the defensive for a month - where will the trophy cartridges come from?

                        How is the supply of captured weapons and ammunition? Trophy teams collect available weapons and b / c - during a larger offensive, less retreat (counter-attacks on average do not produce a large number of captured and captured ammunition, in contrast to strategic offensive operations - especially capture of warehouses).

                        Further, the captured weapons and ammunition arrive at the depots and are distributed in parts equipped with these weapons - one part of the SS was armed with captured PCA without redeployment to 9 mm par and it was supplied with a 7,63x25 mauser.

                        Our were obliged to surrender captured weapons.
                        With German weapons, only regimental intelligence went.
                        One trophy PPSh per company - at the very least, you can somehow pick up trophy cartridges.
                        More is basically a weapon useless for the German after 1942, due to the inability to equip it with ammunition in defense and retreat.
                        Well, the Germans loved SVT (Svetka) more so and they had to get cartridges on it - beat off three attacks - there were no cartridges for SVT - climb after them into the neutral band? To risk being blown up on their own mines or getting a Russian bullet - that’s why the captured weapon was either temporary, while it was possible to get the BK or threw it at the expense of the BK or surrendered to the trophies.
                      3. Alexey G
                        Alexey G 25 May 2020 14: 49 New
                        0
                        Sit on the defensive for a month - where will the trophy cartridges come from?

                        1. As I wrote above, without trophy cartridges you can shoot Mauser, which the Germans had and which the PCA were suitable, although they were weaker than ours.
                        2. The Germans seized large stocks of cartridges in 41-42 and they could use some stock of these cartridges.
                        3. You can re-field in the field on your 9mm trunk and that's it.
                        4. The defense of the Germans, like ours, has never been passive. Hit the flank, captured a convoy with weapons, fueled with ammunition.
                      4. Dmitry V.
                        Dmitry V. 25 May 2020 15: 15 New
                        0
                        Quote: Alexey G
                        As I wrote above, without trophy cartridges you can shoot Mauser, which the Germans had and which the PCA were suitable, although they were weaker than ours.


                        Invalid reasoning.
                        There is a milking document flow - which would require 7,63x25 mauser cartridges for supplies - in the subdivision, according to the STATU, infantry units under this cartridge should be armed.
                        The trophy PPShs did not stand for supply - this is the "initiative" below.
                        So the PPSh unit units were supplied at the owner’s fear, while he also had a full-time weapon, but usually handed it over to a convoy (if an officer or non-commissioned officer) or dragged both (non-commissioned or ordinary) and this is terribly inconvenient to carry extra weight - so this rare or short, in a stable front line.
                        In 1943-1944, a German for leaving the encirclement without a gas mask or one of the standard supply units in the kit could be shot or sent to a disciplinary battalion, especially for an abandoned weapon - when breaking out of the Demyansk cauldron - many German "encircled" were shot for the loss of equipment , not that for the loss of weapons:
                        Lance corporal Sayer, 17th Battalion, Light Infantry, Great Germany Division
                        We walked along the muddy stream for about three kilometers and finally found ourselves in front of a large camp, where those who had come here earlier were waiting for us. It got dark. It was raining. The barbed wire was covered with moisture. Two soldiers with machine guns led us into the territory. Then we stopped. Motorcycles have left. We crowded in a small area behind the wire and did not know what to think ....
                        The chief corporal came up and barked like he had in the old days in Chemnitz:
                        - Get ready for inspection, prepare documents and weapons!
                        From this reception we felt completely uncomfortable.
                        “Present the documents,” the gendarme growled again.
                        He was interrogating a lieutenant standing right in front of me.
                        “Where is your platoon, lieutenant?”
                        “Destroyed, Mr. Gendarme.” Some went missing, others died. We had a hard time.
                        The gendarme did not pay attention to his words, continuing to leaf through the documents:
                        “Have you left your platoon?”
                        For a moment the lieutenant was silent. Painful silence reigned.
                        “Is that a military court?” He asked loudly.
                        “I'm asking questions here, Lieutenant.” Where is your part?
                        The lieutenant, and indeed all of us, had the feeling that we were trapped. Few of us could give an exact answer to this question. The lieutenant started to explain, but everything was in vain. The gendarmes did not want to understand anything and demanded only the answer to the questions that were in the questionnaire.

                        Moreover, the lieutenant did not have the binoculars that were due to him. The gendarme was simply amazed. The fact that he was confronted by a miracle, the surviving man who had lost ten kilograms of weight did not surprise him. But the “Zeiss” issued to all the officers, as well as the card case and the platoon list, for which the lieutenant was responsible, disappeared. Too much was missing. The army is not scattered weapons. The German soldier is more likely to die than to throw army property anywhere.
                        The lieutenant was assigned to the penal battalion, and three strings were removed from the buttonholes. He was lucky. It was a pity to look at him. Two soldiers took him aside. We tried to convince ourselves that this was the order in the army. The cold reception is explained by our defeat at Konotop.
                      5. Dmitry V.
                        Dmitry V. 25 May 2020 15: 17 New
                        0
                        My turn has come. I froze in fear. He took out the documents from his inner pocket. The gendarme scanned them, casting a reproaching glance at me. But my miserable appearance softened him somewhat. Silently, he continued to examine the papers.

                        Fortunately, I connected to my unit, so I avoided having to sign any papers. Dizzy, legs became like cotton. The gendarme read out a list of items that soldiers must have. I laid out everything that was at my disposal. It turned out that I had lost four items, including the damn gas mask. And I threw it away consciously.

                        My papers passed from hand to hand: the gendarmes studied them and sealed them. In a panic, I took an idiotic step. To cause their location, I pulled out nine unused cartridges from the bandolier. The gendarme's eyes lit up. He looked like a climber who conquered the summit.

                        - You retreated?

                        “That's right, Mr. Non-Commissioner.”

                        “So why didn’t they shoot back?” He barked.

                        “That's right, Mr. Non-Commissioner.”

                        - What does it mean "so sure"?

                        “We were ordered to retreat, Mr. Non-Commissioned Officer.” [309]

                        - Damn it! He barked. “What kind of soldiers are these?” They are saved without firing a single shot.

                        Papers went around again. The gendarme who was interrogating me leafed through them, moving his eyes from the smudged pages to my face.

                        I watched the movement of his lips. Perhaps he will send me to the penal battalion, and then I will find the front line, mine clearance, a camp where the word "freedom" loses all meaning, and the prohibition of correspondence.

                        I barely held back the tears. Finally, the gendarme returned the papers and the soldier's book to me, and thereby freedom. The penalty battalion passed me. Taking my satchel, I sobbed. Tears also appeared in the soldier who stood nearby.

                        The crowd looked at me in amazement. Feeling completely insignificant, I ran out into the street through the door opposite and joined my comrades. They stood in the rain at the other end of the camp, and did not bask in the soft beds that we dreamed about. Water flowing from the back and shoulders confirmed the collapse of our dreams.

                        Despite the slap we got from our grateful homeland, we were lucky.

                        http://militera.lib.ru/memo/german/sajer/10.html

                        Read - curious reading.
                        What kind of trophy weapon is there - would you save your own or a free company.
                      6. Alexey G
                        Alexey G 25 May 2020 19: 36 New
                        0
                        Do not confuse SS troops and the Wehrmacht! This is not the same thing. You apparently do not know that the Germans, unlike us, were armed in the most diverse way!
                        Czech tanks, Russian T34, French aircraft, and German weapons were very colorful. A bunch of tanks and self-propelled guns of various modifications.
                        The same applies to firearms!
                        And if the Germans themselves armed the Viking PPSh, then it became their staff!
              4. Dmitry V.
                Dmitry V. 25 May 2020 14: 43 New
                0
                Quote: Alexey G
                therefore replaceable will not be superfluous.


                It is in you that the lack of military experience speaks - if the barrel of a personal weapon is "damaged", has fallen into disrepair, together with it, its owner usually becomes unusable.
                There are rare cases when shrapnel broke the stock of a rifle, and a fighter without a scratch - they said "lucky" about such.

                The barrel has such a small area of ​​destruction that the weapon changed 5-6 owners before it fell into disrepair.

                And to have an "extra barrel" is a nobility, a mass army cannot afford that.
                The Germans sent the captured weapons to the West Val - the security battalions did not expend ammunition, and the captured service was enough for the security service.
              5. Alexey G
                Alexey G 25 May 2020 14: 55 New
                0
                Well, the nobility was not the nobility, but the Germans did so and now the Americans do this, making their rifles with the possibility of firing with a removable barrel under the AK. There is a point in this. You will always be with cartridges. With your own or with strangers. The point is that you are always ready for battle.
                And you do not have military experience. Imagine we are fighting outside the city, we are storming the building. The artillery is silent while in the building they shoot from their barrels, guided by the sound of the shots. As soon as your weapon becomes silent you can hit with artillery. This is a signal that the enemy took possession of the building during the assault. but if I shoot from the PCA, then you will think that ours are still fighting and will not iron the building with howitzers.
                In addition, in the battle for the city, many trophies and ammunition are always captured, which are not left idle and used in battle.
              6. Dmitry V.
                Dmitry V. 25 May 2020 15: 51 New
                0
                Quote: Alexey G
                And you do not have military experience.

                :))
                I also served in the Soviet army and the full course of the fighter and the march of throws in full gear, when you should leave the garrison on alert from a nuclear strike - 5 km in 20 minutes.
                He went into the army with a rifle rank and in part he shot best than anyone, he was not once awarded rewards. Participated in exercises, assault and defense - regular exercises.
                So about my military experience - you can only speculate.
                My friend ran at the USSR championships and reconnoitered the GRU’s mouth, and even in the Chechen wars his friends made experience and no one expected to use trophy and did not use it - this is the army! On the way out - we carry everything with us.
              7. Alexey G
                Alexey G 25 May 2020 19: 03 New
                0
                The Germans used and changed the trunks too! It is a fact. Whether you like it or not, it’s a fact. And he is an individual experience. One does not want to take a shovel with him, the other does not take the extra horn, and the third also grants and cartridges in all places and a first-aid kit and a dry bag, etc. Do not measure on your arshin all! This is a weak argument.
                Let's in fact. The Germans division of the SS armed with our PCA is a fact. Wehrmacht soldiers fought with him. It is a fact. there are many testimonies and photographs confirming this! And if this fact does not fit into your experience, then you have it flawed and do not raise it to absolute!

              8. Dmitry V.
                Dmitry V. 26 May 2020 09: 06 New
                0
                Quote: Alexey G
                The Germans division of the SS armed with our PCA is a fact.


                This is a well-known fact - and they were supplied not with trophy cartridges, but as already written by 7,63 mauser. But he had less gunpowder, the muzzle energy was slightly lower.

                Do not jump off the topic - it was a question of dragging an extra barrel for PPSh samples reassigned to 9x19 par, hoping for an environment :).
                This is nonsense because of your ignorance of the elementary rules for supplying ammunition for military units and the lack of military experience - even elementary service in the army.
                Still trying to teach me, even without knowing the hundredth share, without reading the memoirs of the Wehrmacht soldiers.
                Trying to advise me on books, but my friends went through it: wounded, shell-shocked - I only touched briefly - and walked through them in full. Healthy guys, after wounds, dried up like old people, jumped up every half hour at night, screaming without recognizing anyone after the shell shock, you would not see what post-traumatic rehabilitation, theorist ...
              9. Alexey G
                Alexey G 26 May 2020 15: 28 New
                0
                In the second half of the war, the undetermined number of captured PPSh-41 submachine guns was redone for firing with 9mm Parabellum cartridges and received the designation MP-41®.
                During refinement, the MP-41® submachine gun received new 9 mm barrels and a slot for magazines for the German MP-38 and MP-40 submachine guns with a capacity of 32 rounds. This alteration was reversible - it was possible to return the old barrel and shoot Soviet bullets.
                The exact number of converted Soviet submachine guns is not known, but the scale can be estimated. On July 5, 1944, the army command ordered the production of a batch of 9 mm barrels for PPSh assault rifles “in addition to 10000 already delivered.”

                https://www.drive2.ru/b/486369244498363052/
                I do not jump. Here they write about it too. Read. I am a research fellow at a military university. Memoirs read more than a dozen. I have a degree. All my classmates were in the first and second Chechnya. And others are now serving or serving! I teach you because I teach every day people like you and others.
                A barrel of 600g weighing, allowing you to shoot the enemy with ammunition is not superfluous. It is an important part of the equipment of any experienced and intelligent soldier who is able to fight in any situation, including in the environment or in a situation of temporary lack of supply, which is possible with the actions of partisans or lousy.
                Do not want to admit the truth is your business! Nothing to teach me! Especially stupid things!
              10. Alexey G
                Alexey G 26 May 2020 15: 49 New
                0
                This is nonsense because of your ignorance of the elementary rules for supplying ammunition for military units and the lack of military experience - even elementary service in the army.

                Get to know this:
                Modern conditions of warfare impose such requirements on weapons as accuracy, reliability, ergonomics and modularity.
                So what is modularity? Weapon modularity - the ability to transform one unit, depending on the task, for example, from an assault rifle into a machine gun, by quickly replacing the barrel with a heavier and longer one, or vice versa, in conditions of limited space, turn an assault rifle into a short, unfolded weapon. Modularity also implies multi-caliber, that is, the ability to quickly change the caliber by replacing the barrel, the guise of the shutter and the receiving shaft of the store.

                You are a hopelessly retarded analyst! What the Germans did was a step into the future. And you yourself know how stubborn you are!
                FN SCAR combat assault rifle for special operations forces) - a weapon system developed by the American division of the Belgian company FN Herstal to participate in the competition for the creation of a new machine for USSOCOM fighters in 2004.
                There are 3 main options for transformation:

                * SCAR-L (Light - light) caliber 5,56 - light assault rifle

                * SCAR-H (Heavy-heavy) caliber 7,62x51 NATO

                * SCAR SSR (Sniper Support Rifle - sniper support rifle) - 7,62X51 NATO sniper version

                Trunks vary in their length and are set for a specific task. Rate of fire is 600 rounds per minute.

                The complex is in service with many countries of the world.
                CZ 805 is a promising Czech weapons complex, introduced in 2009 and intended to replace the Vz 58. In 2010, this system was announced to be a winner in the competition over the Belgian FN SCAR and to conclude a contract for the supply of several thousand of these machine guns.
                Thanks to the modular layout (similar to FN SCAR), by replacing some components, you can modify the machine, choosing the required barrel length (standard, shortened, as well as the elongated and heavier barrel, indicated by the numbers 1, 2 and 3, respectively) and the cartridges used (5,56x45 NATO, 7,62x39 or 6,8 mm.
                Beretta ARX-160 is an Italian assault rifle created as part of the Soldier of the Future program (Italian: Soldato Futuro). ARX-160 is an element of a promising infantry equipment complex, which also includes an electron-optical sight and a new 40-mm grenade launcher GLX 160. A standard 406 mm barrel can be quickly replaced in the field with a shortened (305 mm) and reinforced 406 mm.

                Cartridges used:

                5,56x45 NATO

                5,45x39 mm.

                7,62x39 mm.

                6,8x43 mm Remington SPC.

                ETC. Read https://zen.yandex.ru/media/weapon_live/5-luchshih-modulnyh-shturmovyh-vintovok-5d013d39a24abc00b53f7c14?utm_source=serp here and in other places!
                Changing trunks is a necessary and useful thing! Clear and accepted by modern military science! Multibalibernost - is part of the modularity of weapons.
        2. Dmitry V.
          Dmitry V. 25 May 2020 16: 05 New
          0
          Quote: Alexey G
          The artillery is silent while in the building they shoot from their barrels, guided by the sound of the shots. As soon as your weapon becomes silent you can hit with artillery. This is a signal that the enemy took possession of the building during the assault. but if I shoot from the PCA, then you will think that ours are still fighting and will not iron the building with howitzers.


          You have a naive idea of ​​managing combined arms combat.
          Can you imagine how and who controlled the artillery in an offensive battle?
          http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/mihin_pa/index.html
          Mikhin Petr Alekseevich
          "Gunners, Stalin gave the order!"
          He described very well who at what level, in what orders controlled the artillery.

          Honestly - I have no time to dispel your errors - read memoirs.
        3. Alexey G
          Alexey G 25 May 2020 18: 56 New
          0
          In a street battle, the conventional fire control system is undergoing major changes! You have a bunch of outdated patterns in your head!
          Read Anti-Terror Tactics Author: Potapov A. A. Publishing House: FAIR. Year: 2008
          There are not charters, but a real picture!
    3. Alexey G
      Alexey G 25 May 2020 19: 37 New
      0
      Dmitry Vladimirovich Your conclusions from the lack of reason! And experience will not help here. Read the author's article above! The Germans carried captured weapons and used them officially! It is a fact!
  • Dmitry V.
    Dmitry V. 25 May 2020 14: 49 New
    0
    Quote: Alexey G
    Well, firstly, the trunk hardly weighed 1kg


    The box, receiver + trigger, barrel - weight distribution of about 30%, so a kilogram about a kilogram.
  • Alexey G
    Alexey G 25 May 2020 14: 58 New
    0
    Look at how the replayed PPSh shoots
    https://youtu.be/-RIi6Kp4HGg
    With a disk and a store!
  • Alexey G
    Alexey G 25 May 2020 14: 59 New
    0
    Well, about a kilogram? Is that so much?
  • Dmitry V.
    Dmitry V. 25 May 2020 15: 42 New
    0
    Quote: Alexey G
    Well, about a kilogram? Is that so much?

    This scribe is how much towards the end of the 5th kilometer a cast march, and if 10 km, if 15 km?
    The most useless thing.
    In a throw march, the machine gunner with the PKK is the worst at all from the squad, so they tried to put the guys tighter and everyone is trying to help the machine gunner in the march throw, but it would seem that the barrel is longer and harder ...
    When you go on the remnants of strength - every kilogram matters.
    If with an armor of 8 kg - it’s generally difficult.
    I say - in your words not a gram of military experience.
  • Alexey G
    Alexey G 25 May 2020 19: 05 New
    0
    Well, you have a lot, but the Germans are fine! Download it!
  • Alexey G
    Alexey G 25 May 2020 22: 57 New
    +1
    [quote Lodge, receiver + USM, barrel, casing from the barrel [/ quote] all this weighs 3,6 kg
    If this 27 cm barrel weighs a kilogram, then the rest is aluminum?

    The casing accurately weighs kg and the butt weighs kg usm and the box is not less than kg means a barrel of 600 grams is not more!
    this is not a machine gun for you! 27cm is 3 trunks from PM together. What kind of kg is it ??? Did you keep the PM?
  • Alexey G
    Alexey G 25 May 2020 23: 09 New
    0
    PM all together with the store and cartridges to carry 810 gr
  • Alexey G
    Alexey G 25 May 2020 03: 29 New
    0
    Especially good at breaking through the environment. You are in the rear of the enemy. You break through the barriers, immediately collect Russian cartridges and go on the attack further!
    Fiercely, but in the SS-sovski.
  • Alexey G
    Alexey G 25 May 2020 03: 39 New
    0
    Compare


    Zoom in and see that it’s just an adapter.
  • Alexey G
    Alexey G 25 May 2020 01: 57 New
    0
    a tambourine without a throat does not crawl into the neck

    So PPSH has no throat at all ...

    And the German throat (insert) flies in a second.
    The trunk is changing in the field, and here is a reversible alteration!
  • Dmitry V.
    Dmitry V. 25 May 2020 11: 01 New
    0
    Quote: Alexey G
    when you need to put the advancing infantry tearing into the trenches a drive cooler than a horn


    When was the last time it was necessary to put infantry rushing into the trenches?
    The fighting has changed a long time.
    Get ready for the past war?

    A drum store is more convenient in assault operations - to crush by fire.
    1. Alexey G
      Alexey G 25 May 2020 14: 16 New
      0
      In my quote, I talked about the Second World War, and not about modern warfare. Now the infantry is storming the Block posts, enemy bases, settlements, and there there will be a disk with a lot of rounds as a mini-machine gun!
      It is also useful during assault operations, again, like a mini-machine gun, but you won’t go into the building with it? Well, at least not ahead. Heavy weapons are heavy ones.
      I’m not preparing for the past war, but no one knows what the future will be, but the lessons of the past need to be learned, without this we will step on the rake a second time!
  • Alexey G
    Alexey G 24 May 2020 03: 32 New
    0
    When you sit on the shoulders in the trench, you want to have something powerful and multi-charged to shut up the attackers, and when you step, you want to have something light and comfortable. In defensive battles for Stalingrad, PPSh was preferable to MP38. Ammo more and more powerful butt. But in offensive battles, this plus became a minus. The weapon is heavy, and even unreliable, because the attacker must fall, jump up, fall again, etc. How to save disks from damage?
    Of course the horns turned out to be more universal, and Sudaev proved this.
    1. AllBiBek
      AllBiBek 24 May 2020 10: 33 New
      +1
      PPSh's horns even have unreliable disks, yet they are not from a good life, and the receiver is there under the tambourine.

      "Ears" catch dirt, and the restructuring of the feed in one row is also the same.

      PPP, originally made for a horn, and a good horn, is really more reliable in this regard.

      This does not negate the fact that being under the same cartridge as the PPSh, and with underestimating the rate of fire due to only a long shutter speed - it kicks like a horse.

      You can immediately forget about aiming firing bursts farther than half a meter. About single further hundreds - too.
    2. Dmitry V.
      Dmitry V. 25 May 2020 16: 18 New
      -2
      Quote: Alexey G
      In defensive battles for Stalingrad, PPSh was preferable to MP38.


      In the battles for Volgograd, grenades were more important than PP, threw a grenade, cleaned the room, one grenade one room.
      Or do you think snipers made it possible to water from windows with impunity?

      They didn’t always have time to cut the street — seconds, they didn’t manage to open fire — they threw grenades — the most effective means of assaulting and repelling an assault, remember this, civilian. and fewer computer games - they are made by amateurs.
      1. Alexey G
        Alexey G 25 May 2020 17: 11 New
        0
        What??? I grew up in Volgograd! And I still live in it! And I still wear epaulettes! What do you know about the storming of Stalingrad ???
        Read the tactics of the assault groups of Chuikov, in the army of which my grandfather heroically fought!

        Read carefully the inscription pseudo-expert of war !!!
        Do you speak computer games? Do not measure everyone under your arshin if you do not have a jug on your shoulders!
        cleaned up the room
        are you talking And what did you clean up with? Grenade and all?
        And if the enemy survived, if he hid behind the wall or was injured? Or did the grenades run out? What will you do?
        Do you eat your party card? Or will you go to battle with a shovel? With Mosin you attack which is so long that you can’t deploy it in the stairwell? Or will you ask for the help of a sniper?
        Oh you!!!
  • Mikhail3
    Mikhail3 24 May 2020 12: 14 New
    0
    the rate of fire was higher than that of the MP-40
    A high rate of fire is the NEGATIVE quality of the machine. Experts around, damn it ...
    1. AllBiBek
      AllBiBek 25 May 2020 01: 21 New
      0
      Sorry, but you are the same expert in this matter, as well as those whom you criticize.

      Because PP of the first generation - and there the primary sexual attribute - a full-fledged wooden bed - was considered just like an ersatz machine gun with the corresponding rate of fire and at about a hundred meters.

      Then there are dances with a tambourine (and a tambourine is also a dance), but the most common solution is two triggers, for single shots, and for the entire store at once with one click on the other trigger.

      Slow-firing all-metal PP with a folding shoulder is another generation and for other tasks. And - yes, MP-38 is a pioneer there.
      1. Mikhail3
        Mikhail3 25 May 2020 12: 57 New
        0
        Quote: AllBiBek
        Because PP of the first generation - and there the primary sexual attribute - a full-fledged wooden bed - was considered just like an ersatz machine gun with the corresponding rate of fire and at about a hundred meters.

        Who was it considered and why? What is this nonsense? The Germans called him "little machine gun", is that what they mean? PP - infantry assault weapon. To cover with fire, you need to put a "wall" of 3, the edge of 4 bullets, this is enough for anyone. However, the high rate of fire of the PP led to the fact that the fighter, on average, landed 6, or even 8 bullets at a time!
        Absolutely excessive consumption of ammunition, which is not enough, and not even a lot. It was because of this serious flaw that the automatic machine had to be equipped with a healthy round wheel, which wedged closer to the end of the store, the cartridge hung on a weakened spring. Actually, this was the biggest drawback of PCA.
  • Dmitry V.
    Dmitry V. 25 May 2020 10: 38 New
    0
    Still: 900 rounds per minute from PPSh against 500 from MP - is there a difference? ..

    Nothing that the AK series has a rate of 600? which is considered optimal?

    MP-38/40 has a difference in rate of fire from 540 to 600 rounds per minute, depending on the modification of the software (gate mass and spring return elastic properties, etc.)
    The MP40 had a rate of fire of 600 rounds per minute, while in the new versions, due to modernization (reinforced return-combat spring, some changes in the damper), the rate of fire reached 750, and in some even 950-1000 rounds per minute.


    Rate of fire is not exactly a problem with software MP-40
    But the initial bullet speed of 320-400 m / s, respectively, the insufficient range of a direct shot - this is well known. Direct shot range not more than 200 m effective 120m

    At the same time, PPSh-41 has an initial bullet speed of 500 m / s, and an effective firing range (aiming range) of up to 200-300 m. But even at a distance of 400-600m, the bullet retained its lethal properties, although it lost much in speed.

    That is, PPSh allowed to conduct effective fire from a distance twice as large as the MP-40, which is of great importance in field battles.

    MP-40 was more convenient in trench battles, urban battles.
    In urban combat, PPS-43 was superior to MP-40.
  • CommanderDIVA
    CommanderDIVA 28 May 2020 07: 18 New
    0
    I read in the memoirs of our front-line soldiers that basically I loaded not more than 70 rounds of ammunition into the PPSh disk, but not more than 50, in order to avoid spring reloading, in my opinion
  • Givi_49
    Givi_49 1 August 2020 07: 34 New
    0
    Only the enemy can objectively assess your weapon, as well as your ability to fight. Everything else is self-promotion.
  • Svidetel 45
    Svidetel 45 21 August 2020 18: 55 New
    0
    A cartridge 25x7,62 is determined by the caliber of the weapon that was created for this cartridge, the caliber of such a weapon if you measure the diameter of the barrel bore along the fields is 7,62 mm, and if you measure the diameter along the grooves, it will be equal to 7,92 them, that is, the depth of the grooved grooves is 0,15 mm, the German cartridge 25x7,63 mm was created for weapons with a bore diameter in the fields of 7,63 mm, that is, only one hundredth of 1 mm more, so that they are completely interchangeable, given that tolerances from the nominal size could be more, or if the barrel of our machine gun was already in operation and had some wear.
  • Valery Radevich_2
    Valery Radevich_2 28 August 2020 00: 03 New
    0
    The PPSh could fire single shots, the MP40 does not.