“Give me some bread!” Famine in Russia in 1929-1934

Comradely trial of a simulator in the Yasnaya Polyana agricultural cartel, p. Lishnya, Kiev region, 1935

Do not answer the fool for his foolishness, lest you also become like him; but answer the fool for his foolishness, lest he become a wise man in his eyes.
Book of Solomon 26: 4, 26: 5

History and science. Not so long ago, a debate erupted in the comments of VO about whether one of the commentators wrote correctly that the famine was 1932-1933. millions of Soviet citizens died. As is often the case in VO, unfortunately, doubts about the veracity of the phrase about millions were expressed in an exceptionally rude manner - “he lost his mind”. Well, since we don’t choose people here and work with what we have, let's forget for a while about the lack of culture of some of our fellow citizens and look at the problem of “millions” in essence.

Immediately make a reservation that I personally did not deal with this topic, it is not interesting to me. The knowledge that Wikipedia has in this case is also sufficient. However, in the comments, an interesting conversation began with a certain Vladimir U, who, recognizing, in principle, that there was hunger and the horrors of hunger (well, Sholokhov himself wrote about this to Stalin, you can’t argue with that!), Categorically spoke out, first, against the "millions", and secondly, against the numbers given on Wikipedia. The reason, however, is understandable: they say that Wikipedia happens to give inaccurate materials (and yes, that happens), and it also gives data from Ukrainian historians, and they are biased, they introduced the concept of "famine" and generally ... "they are bad." In the sense of engaged!

But what kind of historians are “good”, are there any credible sources on this subject, and how was it studied at all? That is, without a doubt, studied! And for sure, documents related to the “hungry topic” are available in archives such as the GARF, in the Russian State Autonomy and Information Agency, and in the FSB archive. I wrote the last one right away, explaining what is needed, why, and why. But the answer that came from the archive turned out to be somewhat discouraging: wait 30 days, and then we will answer you. That is, of course, you can wait. But we all know that an egg is expensive for Easter. Therefore, I thought: while the trial and the case, you can look for other sources of information on this topic.

And it turned out that there are not just a lot of them, but a lot of them, and that we have been dealing with this topic for a long time. Which, however, is not at all surprising. Available was a collection of documents “Hunger in the USSR. 1929-1934 years. ".

Organizers and participants of the project:

Federal Archive Agency.
State Archive of the Russian Federation.
RGAE.
RGASPI.
Federal Archive Agency.
State Archive of the Russian Federation (GARF).
Russian State Archive of Economics (RGAE).
Russian State Archive of Socio-Political History (RGASPI).
Central Archive of the Federal Security Service (CA FSB of Russia).

The Federal Archival Agency presents a collection of documents identified in the Russian federal archives: the Russian State Archive of Socio-Political History (the former Central Party Archive of the Institute of Marxism-Leninism under the Central Committee of the CPSU), the State Archive of the Russian Federation, the Russian State Archive of Economics, as well as the Central Archive of the Federal security services of the Russian Federation.

This is a print edition in 4 volumes

It came out quite a while ago: "Hunger in the USSR".

On December 24, 2013, the Federal Archive Agency announced that the third volume of the documentary series “Hunger in the USSR. 3-1929 years. " (Famine in the USSR. 1934–1929: In 1934 vols. T. 3. Summer 3 - 1933. M .: MFD, 1934. - 2013 pp.) This international project of the Russian Archive was completed, and published a short article about the project of its scientific adviser - Doctors of historical sciences, professors V.V. Kondrashina.

The full version of this text is on this page.

There is such a collection of documents by year and month:

A collection of documents from the GARF, RSAE, RGASPI, CA FSB of Russia on the topic "Famine in the USSR. 1930-1934."

Contents:

1) Documents of 1930
January
April
May
June
September
December

2) Documents of 1931
July
September
October

3) Documents of 1932
January
February
March
April
May
June
July
August
October
November
December

4) Documents of 1933
January
February
March
April
May
June
July
August
September
October
November
December

5) Documents of 1934
January
February
March
June

It turned out that the doctor of historical sciences, professor V.V. Kondrashin is my colleague at Penza State University, we just worked in different departments and, in general, did not particularly intersect. It turned out that he is the author of many studies on this topic. Actually, this is precisely his theme, in 2010 he traveled to Ukraine and took part in its discussion with Ukrainian historians. You can read about how it was and what he told them then here.

That is, today there is a solid documentary base that allows us to study this issue and work on its basis. There are letters of Kosior to Stalin and letters of Stalin to Kosior, there are reports of Kaganovich and a lot of reports to the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks about the famine, as well as reports from the Chekists about what is happening in the starving regions. If desired, everyone can find it all.

What not everyone can find, in general, is dissertations on this topic, in which, along with everything else, there is data on the number of victims. Here are some of these theses, the contents of which can be judged by their names.

The repressive policy of the Soviet state in the countryside in the 1930s. The topic of the dissertation and abstract on the Higher Attestation Commission of the Russian Federation 07.00.02, candidate of historical sciences Kolomiets, Konstantin Anatolyevich, 2005, Penza.

The repressive policy of the Soviet state in the 1930s and the political mood of the population: on the materials of the Belgorod, Kursk and Oryol regions. The topic of the dissertation and abstract on the Higher Attestation Commission of the Russian Federation 07.00.02, candidate of historical sciences Varfolomeeva, Margarita Ivanovna, 2002, Kursk.

From the history of political repression in the Tatar Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic: late 1917 - early 1950s. The topic of the dissertation and abstract on the Higher Attestation Commission of the Russian Federation 07.00.02, candidate of historical sciences Ivanova, Oksana Anatolyevna, 2009, Kazan.

The repressive policy of the state in 1928-1939. and its consequences: on the materials of the Central Black Earth Region. The topic of the dissertation and abstract on the Higher Attestation Commission of the Russian Federation 07.00.02, candidate of historical sciences Shashkova, Olga Leonidovna, 2000, Kursk.

However, although the abstracts of these works are downloaded for free, you should pay 500 rubles to get the work itself, i.e., the amount is unthinkable for an uninterested citizen of the Russian Federation. And again, I could get the work of Kolomiyets, for example, for free, but ... now it is simply impossible.

On the other hand, why read candidate dissertations and rummage through trifles, even interesting ones, when there are already a large number of summarizing monographs by reputable authors, written with the involvement of all the documents mentioned above? As an example with dissertations for the degree of candidate of historical sciences, I just wanted to emphasize that the basis for more serious research is more than sufficient, that is, archival data both at the level of central archives and local, on the basis of which such studies are just held.

Well, the works of famous professional historians - here they are.

Doctor of Historical Sciences Polyakov V.A. Famine in the Volga region, 1919−1925: origin, features, consequences.
Doctor of Historical Sciences Ivnitsky N.A. Famine of 1932-1933 in USSR.
Doctor of Historical Sciences Aralovets N.A. Famine of 1932-1933 in the USSR and its demographic consequences.
Doctor of Historical Sciences Danilov V.P., Zelenin I.E. Organized hunger. On the occasion of the 70th anniversary of the general peasant tragedy.
Doctor of Historical Sciences Kondrashin V.V. The tragedy of the Russian village.
Doctor of Historical Sciences Zima V.F. Famine in the USSR 1946-1947: the origin and consequences.

What are the documents cited by the authors of these studies? Let's see at least some.

From the special help of the Secret Political Department of the OGPU on cases of famine in the regions of the Far Eastern Territory and the Ural Region, April 3, 1933, number 277. Top secret.

“On the Sunalinskiy collective farm“ Culture ”, a number of starving collective farmer families eat cats and dogs. In agricultural artels them. Kalinin collective farmers go to the cattle cemetery of the village of Lugovoi, pull out the fallen horses from the pits and eat them ... Sharp negative moods are noted among part of the collective farmers due to labor difficulties: “They survived, we have to die from hunger, the children shout“ bread ”, and where will I take them ? And, probably, they will have to crush the children and decide their own life, because it’s hard to die by starvation. ” “Did I think that in the summer I worked until you drop - tattered, naked, barefoot, so that now I can sit without bread and swell from hunger, because I have 7 people. And everyone is sitting and shouting: "Give me bread," but how can mother transfer it? I’ll go under the tractor, I can’t bear this suffering ... "

(Head of SPO OGPU G. Molchanov.
Assistant to the head of the SPO OGPU Lyushkov.)
Source: TSA FSB of the Russian Federation. F. 2. Op. 11. D. 42. L. 113−116.

Specifically about the role of Stalin:

January 1932 I. V. Stalin and V. M. Molotov in a telegram to S. V. Kosior and members of the Politburo of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine (b):

“We consider the situation with grain procurements in Ukraine alarming. Based on the data available in the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks (b), workers in Ukraine spontaneously focus on the failure to fulfill the plan for 70–80 million pounds. We consider such a prospect absolutely unacceptable and intolerant. We consider it a shame that Ukraine this year, with a higher level of collectivization and more state farms, prepared 1 million poods on January 20 of this year. less than last year. Who is to blame: the highest level of collectivization or the lowest level of management of the procurement business? We consider it necessary that you immediately arrive in Kharkov and take into your own hands the whole grain procurement business. The plan must be implemented completely and unconditionally. The decision of the plenum of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks (October 1931) must be implemented. ”

(Stalin. Molotov.)

After this telegram, violence and excesses in grain procurements intensified. General searches were conducted among collective farmers and individual farmers, and if they found bread, all property was taken. Beatings of peasants began to be widely practiced, often with mutilation, illegal arrests, etc.

In order to prevent the peasants distraught from starvation, not breaking into the cities where small bread rations were given (300-400 g), the OGPU was instructed to establish cordons on roads, railway stations and prevent starving people from moving.

Directive of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks and the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR "On Preventing the Mass Exit of Starving Peasants" on January 22, 1933 (winter of 1932-1933, the peak of mortality from starvation):

“The Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks and the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR got information that a mass exodus of peasants“ for bread ”began in the Kuban and Ukraine in the Central Black Sea Region, on the Volga, Moscow Region, Western Region, and Belarus. The Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks and the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR have no doubt that this departure of peasants, as well as their departure from Ukraine last year, was organized by enemies of the Soviet power, Socialist-Revolutionaries and agents of Poland with the aim of agitating “through peasants” to the northern regions of the USSR against collective farms and generally Soviet power. Last year, the party, Soviet and Chekist bodies of Ukraine missed this counterrevolutionary venture of the enemies of Soviet power. This year a repeat of last year’s mistake cannot be made. The first one. The Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks and the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR instruct the regional, regional executive committee and the PP of the OGPU of the North Caucasus to prevent the mass exodus of peasants from the North Caucasus to other territories and to enter their territory from Ukraine. The second one. The Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks and the Council of People's Commissars instruct the Central Committee of the Communist Party (Bolsheviks) U, Ukrsovnarkom, Balitsky and Redens to prevent the mass exodus of peasants from Ukraine to other regions and entry into the region from the North Caucasus. The third. The Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks and the Council of People's Commissars prescribe the PP of the OGPU of the Moscow Region, Central Black Sea District, Western Region, Belarus, Lower Volga to arrest the "peasants" of Ukraine and the North Caucasus who have made their way north and, after the counter-revolutionary elements have been taken away, to place the rest in their places of residence . Fourth. The Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks (Bolsheviks) and the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR instruct the GPU TO Prokhorov to give an appropriate instruction to the GPU TO system. ”

(Chairman of the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR V. Molotov.
Secretary of the Central Committee of the CPSU (B.) I. Stalin.)
Archive of the Politburo of the Central Committee of the CPSU. RGASPI. F. 558. Op. 11. D. 45. L. 109. 1934.

1934 Special communication of the PP OGPU in Gorky about a pauper in the Omutninsky district. April 30, 1934 Source: Soviet village through the eyes of the Cheka-OGPU-NKVD. 1918-1939. Documents and materials. In 4 t. / T. 3. Book. 2. pp. 566−567 Archive: CA FSB of the Russian Federation. F. 3. Op. 1. D. 747. L. 195-196. Script. No. 213:

“In Omutninsky district, the influx of a mendicant element from the Udmurt region and the Komi-Permyatsky district is increasing. Among the poor there are many women with young children. Recently, there are 200 people in the working village of the Leskovsky plant. beggars who arrived from the Kudymkar district of the Komi-Permyak district. Without documents for work they are not accepted. They go around in groups and ask for bread. They stop in workers' villages and villages, talk about hunger in their districts, the collapse of collective farms, etc. In the house of a worker of the Leskovsky Filippov factory, a beggar Mozunin who arrived from the Komi-Permyatsky district said: “We came here for 300 miles, in our area there is a terrible famine . In 1933, we had a crop failure, but the grain procurements were fully recovered from us. In the fall, we ate one straw, birch sawdust and different grass. From such food people began to die. In our village of Tidilivo, only 20 houses remained alive in 8 families, the rest all died without exception. Of the 50 households in the village of Otopkovo, 4 were left alive. The dead are in the houses, there is no one even to clean them. The collective farms have all broken up. The land has remained unoccupied ”... We inform the krai of the CPSU (b) and the krai executive committee about the appearance of a mendicant element in the Omutninsky district. We have taken measures to seize the beggars who come out with active a / agitation and engage in theft. ”

(Start of SPO PP OGPU GK Graz.)

1935. Report of the UNKVD in the Voronezh region. about food difficulties. June 5, 1935 Source: Soviet village through the eyes of the Cheka-OGPU-NKVD. 1918-1939. Documents and materials. In 4 volumes / T. 4. pp. 107−108 Archive: CA FSB of Russia. F. 3. Op. 2. D. 1088. L. 368. The original. No. 29:

“People's Commissar of Internal Affairs of the USSR, Comrade Yagoda.
Recently, some collective farms in the Mordovia region have been experiencing serious food difficulties. A particularly difficult situation was created on the collective farms. Kosyreva, Red Star, Wave of Revolution, Red Plowman ... Some collective farmers who do not have bread are engaged in poverty. Among part of the collective farmers, anti-collective farm sentiments are noted, and tendencies for leaving the collective farm and leaving for cities and industrial centers have intensified. Collective farmers in food difficulties are not provided with any assistance on the spot. ”

(The head of the secretary-polit. Department of the GUGB G. Molchanov.)

And at my disposal there are also such publications. In particular, in this, for 1935, no less than 830 pages of curious reading. It’s a kind of “Masaraks” (“The World Inside Out”), that is, in it what the Soviet peasants really spoke about in the village and what really happened there ... An excellent manual for schools and universities!

All this is good, of course, no doubt some of our readers will say, but where are the numbers? Where are the numbers ?! The ones that talk about those who died of hunger ... However, there are numbers, and even a lot, to choose who likes what!

Author / Year / Number of victims, million people:

F. Lorimer / 1946 / 4,8
B. Urlanis / 1974 / 2,7
S. Whitcroft / 1981 / 3,4
B. Anderson and B. Silver / 1985 / 2-3
R. Conquest / 1986 / 8
S. Maksudov / 2007 / 2-2,5
V. Tsaplin / 1989 / 3,8
E. Andreev et al. / 1993 / 7,3
N. Ivnitsky / 1995 / 7,5
State Duma of the Russian Federation / 2008/7
O. Rudnitsky and A. Savchuk / 2013 / 8,7

As you can see, all the numbers are different. Moreover, historians began to consider human lives lost due to hunger as early as 1946, first foreign and then ours. And the minimum number turned out to be 2 million, and the maximum - 8. However, in our country there is a state body of people who were elected to it by our own citizens - this is the State Duma. And she also worried about the number of victims of hunger in our country. The following document was compiled:

STATE DUMA OF THE FEDERAL MEETING OF THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION OF THE FIFTH CONVOCATION
STATEMENT of April 2 2008
IN MEMORY OF VICTIMS OF HUNGER OF 30-X IN THE TERRITORY OF THE USSR

The State Duma of the Federal Assembly of the Russian Federation shares the tribulations with the peoples of the former USSR in connection with the 75th anniversary of the terrible tragedy - the famine of the 30s, which covered a significant part of the territory of the Soviet Union.

Archival documents examined by modern historians reveal not only the scale of the tragedy, but also its causes. The following tasks were solved by extraordinary methods: to destroy the small proprietors, to forcibly collectivize agriculture and push the peasants out of the village in order to obtain an army of workers for the accelerated industrialization of the country.

As a result of the famine caused by forced collectivization, many regions of the RSFSR (the Volga region, the Central Black Earth Region, the North Caucasus, the Urals, Crimea, part of Western Siberia), Kazakhstan, Ukraine, Belarus suffered. About 1932 million people died from starvation and diseases associated with malnutrition in 1933-7.

The peoples of the USSR paid a huge price for industrialization, for the gigantic economic breakthrough that occurred in those years. The eternal monument to the heroes and victims of the 30s was the Dnieper Hydroelectric Power Station, Magnitogorsk and Kuznetsk Iron and Steel Works, metallurgical giants of Ukraine Zaparozhstal, Azovstal, Krivorozhstal, large coal mines in Donbass, Kuzbass, Karaganda, Kharkov Tractor Plant, Moskovsky and Gorkov Automobile factories - more than 1500 industrial enterprises in total, many of which still provide for the economic development of independent states in the former USSR.

In an effort to solve the food supply problems of sharply growing industrial centers at all costs, the leadership of the USSR and the Union republics applied repressive measures to ensure grain procurements, which significantly aggravated the grave consequences of the 1932 crop failure. However, there is no historical evidence that famine was organized along ethnic lines. Millions of citizens of the USSR, representatives of various peoples and nationalities living mainly in agricultural regions of the country became its victims. This tragedy does not and cannot have internationally established signs of genocide and should not be the subject of contemporary political speculation.

The State Duma reaffirms its commitment to the provisions of the joint statement of delegations of a number of UN member states, adopted at the 58th session of the UN General Assembly in 2003, which expressed sympathy for millions of victims of the tragedy, regardless of their nationality.

Deputies of the State Duma, paying tribute to the victims of the famine of the 30s on the territory of the USSR, strongly condemn the regime that neglected the lives of people in order to achieve economic and political goals, and declare the unacceptability of any attempts to revive totalitarian regimes in the states that formerly belonged to the USSR neglecting the rights and lives of their citizens.

You can relate to state power in your own country in any way, but what you can’t do is ignore it. And until the opposite is proved, it is necessary to rely on those figures that it provides. Believe it or not, this is already a matter of professional competence of every citizen, and it is clear that the opinion of a doctor of historical sciences, who has studied this problem for many years, has much more weight than the opinion of a stubborn amateur.

In any case, even if we take the smallest number of dead, and this is 2 (2-3) - 2,7 million, it will be obvious that this is not a few thousand and not one million, but all that is more than one, it is “a lot,” and, therefore, our reader and commentator under the nickname Olgovich did not “cheat,” but cited the pure truth in his commentary, even if you count only at this minimum!

PS Well, when in 30 days the answer comes from the FSB archive and if it is interesting enough, then it will be possible to write another article ... Already on the materials sent!

Comments

[Mavrikiy]

Wikipedia happens to give inaccurate materials (and yes, this happens), and it also gives data from Ukrainian historians, and they are biased, introduced the concept of "famine" and generally ... "they are bad." In the sense of engaged!

That's right, nasty and corrupt.

The collection of documents “Hunger in the USSR. 1929-1934. "

All international projects on the history of Russia ..., dig your hands with soap, 3 times.

[Deniska999]

Oh, and commentators here will bother their nerves here today ... For the sake of what, here's the question. Because there will be only emotions, but there is no normal discussion.

[Basil50]

I tried to find data on hunger from 1929 to 1935 in France-Poland-Germany-America-Italy and I did not find. There are many references to the fact of hunger, but the causes and sizes of hunger are all different.
According to the United States, there are data on hunger and * disappearance * from the lists of citizens from three to eleven million people, while the cause of hunger is either a crisis or drought, but there is very little data and all the figures for losses are only indirect.
In Europe, data is generally kept secret. Even about Germany during the * crisis *. According to Poland, there is no data today, but today there are a lot of reasoning and fantasies about the * famine * on the outskirts

[Octopus]

Quote: Vasily50

According to the United States, there are data on hunger and * disappearance * from the lists of citizens from three to eleven million people,

Again in America, blacks hang what you will do!

The little problem is that no one has gone anywhere. Census 1930 123 million people, 1940 132 million people.

The great Russian historians from LJ discovered the Roosevelt Holodomor in an elementary way: during the 20th, the US population increased by 16%, and in the 30th only by 7%. Consequently, the great Russian historians write that these missing percentages of growth, exactly 10 million people - victims of Guverism-Rooseveltism, are not excluded that they are eaten alive.

The idea that population growth in the 20s and 40s, when it was again high, was largely due to post-war migration, which was relatively weak in the 30s, to Russian LJ historians is disgusting.

[Varyag_0711]

Octopus
Again in America, blacks hang what you will do!

Not again, but again. To consider the causes of famine in the USSR, it is necessary to consider the reasons that prompted it, and this is not possible to consider in isolation from the world situation. For some reason, it is customary for us to cry out about hunger ONLY in the USSR, not taking into account global trends.
In general, the article is another govnovbros from Shpakovsky, to raise the hype and the next govnosracha on the forum.
The author does not consider it necessary to mention that for help in the industrialization of the USSR, the collective West accepted almost only grain from the USSR as payment.
He cites as sources some books written by the same pseudo-historians as the author himself.
So the article is another bottom in the performance of the "historian" (as he himself believes) shpakovsky.

Do not answer the fool for his foolishness, lest you also become like him; but answer the fool for his foolishness, lest he become a wise man in his eyes.
Book of Solomon 26: 4, 26: 5

That is precisely why I go into these foul-smelling articles so that the author of the roll does not relax.
After reading Shpakovsky, I want to go to the shower, the feeling like in shit was bathed.

[Malyuta]

Quote: Varyag_0711

In general, the article is another govnovbros from Shpakovsky, to raise the hype and the next govnosracha on the forum.

Well, you set out everything. I support.

[Octopus]

Quote: Varyag_0711

Not again, but again. To consider the causes of famine in the USSR, it is necessary to consider the reasons that prompted it, and this is not possible to consider in isolation from the world situation. For some reason, it is customary for us to cry out about hunger ONLY in the USSR, not taking into account global trends.

Well why. Famine in the USSR and in the colonies of the same Bengal 42-43 years.

Quote: Varyag_0711

The author does not consider it necessary to mention that for help in the industrialization of the USSR, the collective West accepted almost only grain from the USSR as payment.

The collective West, naturally, accepted money from the USSR. But the fact that the USSR could offer little to the collective West is yes.

Although in your own way, you are right. The disgusting grimaces of capitalism, when unprincipled traders - Kahn, Ford and others - built factories in the USSR literally on human bones, will be waiting for their artists for a long time to come. This is not to expose your cooperation with the Reich.

[Varyag_0711]

Octopus
This is not to expose your cooperation with the Reich.

Here is more detailed please. Did the USSR cooperate with the Reich alone or together with the USA, Britain and others? And what is cooperation? Trade? So the United States traded with the Reich before the opening of the "second front", how can you count it, "whistleblower" unfinished?

[Octopus]

Quote: Varyag_0711

how to count, "whistleblower" unfinished?

Yes, whatever you think. The meaning of the replica is different.

In how differently the phrase "money does not smell" is perceived by various good people in relation to cooperation with the Reich and cooperation with the USSR. I find it funny.

[210ox]

Well, do not write to him how we fought hunger, or rather, they resolved this issue in the second half of the 40s and early 50s .. These are not his principles. We need to find a problem, but to tarnish better.

[Pilat2009]

Quote: Varyag_0711

The author does not consider it necessary to mention that for help in the industrialization of the USSR, the collective West accepted almost only grain from the USSR as payment.

And what? Is this a reason to starve the population? I didn’t read, but I condemn

[Basil50]

It always touched that all the incidents in Europe or in the * cited * USA * if anything happens, it is * natural processes *, just like incorrect statistics or something else that is just as regular. Today it is also cultivated. Among fans of European democratic regimes, this persists - a trend however.
That's just where in the USA people disappeared, the question remains unanswered, as indeed in Europe during the same period. But hunger in Europe and the USA was. Until it is denied. Here are just the data so far secret in these very democratic regimes

[Blacksmith 55]

My mother told me about that famine. She is from the age of 25, and I don’t know if she herself remembered, or heard from someone. And now you won’t even ask her.
She talked about terrible things in the village.
Honestly, then I was not very interested.
Naturally, she could not name any numbers, but said that many people died.

[Blacksmith 55]

You write nonsense about the help.
Everyone believes in what he wants to believe, and to prove to such a person his wrong is almost impossible.
Who to believe, if not mother?

About the village, below the octopus already answered correctly.
Na-in Ukraine never lived.

[ser56]

Quote: Mavrikiy

Name, address, life time of a mother and a certificate from a psychologist, two, or you are my friend ......., and possibly a liberal.

Can I see your mental health certificate? The problems with it clearly follow from your text ...

[DED_peer_DED]

Sowing 2020 spring.
Who is "guilty of death"?
Why was this lawlessness done?
Who will be responsible for this?

[Looking for]

Russian will never use the word "village". He will say - "village". Long ago from Ukraine?

[Octopus]

The village has a church, the village has no church.

Oh, these defenders of the Russian language.

[Octopus]

Do not want to learn Russian - I do not force.

[your1970]

Quote: Varyag_0711

The village and the farm are South Russian concepts, namely in Ukraine, the Don and the Kuban. The village is a purely Russian concept.

- forget ... and whence then in Volga region the village of Uzen Fortress and the villages of Olonovka and Kurovka ??? as well as the Kharlamov Sad farm and the Pendeevs (Old, New and simple)?
About Bagarbay and Sultanbek farms - I'm afraid to ask anyone else ....

Z.Y. all the listed settlements were in this status under the kings in the 19th century and after 1917 - also in it

[Korax71]

It’s a little tense with the Russian, just with you, if you don’t know the difference between the village and the village

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Blacksmith 55

My mother told me about that famine

One grandfather also told me, and later, his son, 22 years of birth.
Grandfather spoke of severe hunger, but no one in their village died (Sumy region. Krolevetsky district.) His son, remembering, laughed - Lezhu says - the fly is creeping for me, the old man is telling me - drive the fly away, - I - and Why drive her away, I’ll die anyway, the Old Man and my mother laughed.
And one more, very important evidence of that time.
I haven’t read it myself, I won’t lie, but the one who read it told me - an appeal to Konotop (Sumy region) RONO about the need to open a school with. Elm is additionally another first class, due to the large number of children.
The report is dated 1939.
If we take into account the fact that children studied at school from eight years old, then they are born in 1931. How could they survive the famine?

[Normal ok]

Quote: Deniska999

Oh, and commentators here will bother their nerves here today ... For the sake of what, here's the question. Because there will be only emotions, but there is no normal discussion.

This is the problem of the current VO. Some emotions, no content. It's a pity that there was a good site.

[sniperino]

Quote: Deniska999

there will be only emotions, but no normal discussion.

There is no way to clear the discussion of all the emotional husk, semantic tricks, departures and repetitions, to clarify the thesis and antithesis, to add arguments and counter-arguments without time limit and display them side by side in text blocks, put footnotes with sources. Not an expert in web design, but it seems to me that the "Discussions" section with special rules and a control panel could well provide such opportunities, and would attract good experts in the relevant fields to such normal discussions, and with them an increase in the number of participants ... The increase in advertising revenue could satisfy the legitimate private interests of the owners, but such a format of discussion would be extremely disadvantageous to party propagandists.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Mavrikiy

Wikipedia happens to give inaccurate materials (and yes, this happens), and it also gives data from Ukrainian historians, and they are biased, introduced the concept of "famine" and generally ... "they are bad." In the sense of engaged!

That's right, nasty and corrupt.

The collection of documents “Hunger in the USSR. 1929-1934. "

All international projects on the history of Russia ..., dig your hands with soap, 3 times.

authors of terrible, horror-causing horrors of an unprepared person, documents from OGPU, NKVD, prosecutors, government agencies, and :

Federal Archive Agency.
State Archive of the Russian Federation.
RGAE.
RGASPI.
Federal Archive Agency.
State Archive of the Russian Federation (GARF).
Russian State Archive of Economics (RGAE).
Russian State Archive of Socio-Political History (RGASPI).
Central Archive of the Federal Security Service (CA FSB of Russia)

... all -.... "nasty and corrupt historians?"

Or maybe just someone does not want to open their eyes and see the real price of blissful fairy tales from a non-existent parallel "reality" invented by dirty and corrupt individuals for a small ration in a special distributor and a well-fed life?

Quote: Mavrikiy

In the case, right, he did not know the words democracy and grant
B. Urlanis / 1974 / 2,7
the very first, everyone danced from him for the hillocks and ours. Ours after 1990 is corrupt scum, doctors became for the dirt poured on the USSR.

Do not write nonsense: they wrote about the tragedy long to this miracle performing ORDERS AND INSTALLATIONS OF THE PARTY , and your party officially and brazenly LIED that hunger in 32-33, 47 years -NOT WAS. how there was not a single starvation!

That's what she stated in terrible cannibal February 1933 IN THE FACE to the poor peasants themselves:

We have made the millions of poor people who lived before starving, become PEOPLE SECURED.

What does it mean? This means that at least 20 million peasants, at least 20 million poor people - were saved from poverty and ruin, saved from kulak bondage and turned through collective farms in wealthy people.

It is a great achievement, comrades. This is an achievement that the world has not yet known. and which no state in the world has yet reached.

it is very difficult to come up with more hypocritical mocking cynicism about "an achievement unseen in the world".

And further, soon, it is declared:

life has become better, more fun. the population began to multiply much faster than in the old days. Now we have about one year of net population growth. three million souls. This means that every year we get an increment for the whole of Finland.

Stalin, in 1930, our growth was 3 million

Stalin, 1934, us 168 million

The census, 1937 showed ......162 млн instead of the promised 177 млн- CATASTROPHE!

It remains to be added that, despite the already occurred death of millions and massive cannibalism in the autumn and winter of 1932-33, the export of bread abroad was stopped only in .... APRIL 1933

Truly deadly export!

Thanks a lot to the author for the topic raised and the documents cited.

The true history of the country must be known in its entirety.

PS from the 1930s began the DEMOGRAPHIC CATASTROPHE of the Russian people, leading to the Russian Cross

[Plantagenet]

“A general war that will break out will crush the Slavic alliance and destroy these petty dumb-headed nationalities up to and including their name.

Yes, the coming world war will wipe out not only reactionary classes and dynasties, but also entire reactionary peoples, and this will also be progress. ”

"... We now know where the enemies of the revolution are concentrated: in Russia and in the Slavic lands of Austria ... We know what to do: extermination war and unbridled terror."

Fr. Engels

[Octopus]

Quote: Olgovich

The census of 1937 showed ...... 162 million instead of the promised 177 million - CATASTROPHE!

Here, by the way, is an interesting point, the discussion of which I somehow did not come across.

All estimates of the losses of the Second World War are demographic, based on the change in population.

And from what figures of pre-war numbers are they considered? Is it from the census of the 39th year?

[Jura 27]

[/ quote] And from what figures of the pre-war strength are they considered? Not from the census of the 39th year? [Quote]

It can be calculated from this: 199,92 million people, - the number of inhabitants of the USSR as of July 01.07.41, XNUMX, according to the USSR State Planning Committee.

[Normal ok]

Figs with him, partially identified, if desired - will be found. My wife's grandfather was a sapper (3 orders of the red star), a battalion commander. For those who like to "debunk enemies", he was a member of the "special troika" in one of the Baltic republics. (God forbid remember) .. My grandfather was an officer of the automobile troops from 1938. First I drove cars from Iran, then I was at the front. He had 50% of former convicts under his command (he said that they shot at him) .. He met victory in Prussia. After the war, he served as the commander of an autorot at uranium mines in Germany (formally an NKVD officer). What is all this for? In addition to the fact that they all told that it was REALLY, at the indicated time, the local villagers, exhausted, hungry, crawled to Odessa in search of devour !! and died on the streets !!! Glory to Communism damn it!

[Normal ok]

Once again banned for real facts. Is the order alive? or insanity grows stronger?

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Normal ok

Once again banned for real facts. Is the order alive? or insanity grows stronger?

I slapped you minus. Justified. After my grandfather, my grandfather was sent coal to mine. So he earned so much there that my grandmother did not work after the war, she sat at home.

[Okolotochny]

Is the order alive?

And what is he doing? He does not suffer from communism. Or transfer arrows to someone? I put a plus, by the way.

[Looking for]

Only contemporaries can know the true story.

[DED_peer_DED]

Quote: Seeker

Only contemporaries can know the true story.

Yeah. And on TV of that time they were supposed to show, necessarily and believably.
And how else?

[Vladimir_2U]

Since in the comments I do not see the author of the article in which I will mention Mr. Shpakovsky, I will attach my answer to Olgych's comment, "truthful and objective" as the State Duma of Russia of 2008

[Quote]You can relate to state power in your own country in any way, but what you can’t do is ignore it. And until the opposite is proved, it is necessary to rely on those figures that it provides. Believe it or not, this is already a matter of professional competence of every citizen, and it is clear that the opinion of a doctor of historical sciences, who has studied this problem for many years, has much more weight than the opinion of a stubborn amateur.[/ Quote]
However, for some reason, the State Duma liked the figure of 7 million people. And this same State Duma adopted a statement on the Katyn case:
[Quote]In official Soviet propaganda, responsibility for this atrocity, collectively called the Katyn tragedy, was attributed to Nazi criminals ... ... In the early 1990s, our country took important steps towards establishing the truth in the Katyn tragedy. It was recognized that the mass extermination of Polish citizens on the territory of the USSR during World War II was an act of arbitrariness of a totalitarian state, which also repressed hundreds of thousands of Soviet people for political and religious convictions, on social and other grounds.[/ Quote]
Despite the conclusions of the commission, Burdenko, despite a lot of evidence of the guilt of the German Nazis, despite the lack of motive from the Soviet government of those years, despite the literary cries of researchers in this case about falsification of documents in 90, etc., despite direct harm to Russia and its international prestige, the State Duma adopted this shameful document. And a legitimate question arises: why, having adopted the document about Katyn directly harming Russia and its people, based on Nazi lies and the rigging of the 90s inspired by Russophobic circles of Poland, the 2008 State Duma could not accept the statement on hunger no less harmful for Russia and its people 30s, and with obviously false numbers? She accepted.
This was done for momentary political reasons, or due to the corruption of deputies (there is such a version in the Katyn case), the question is different.
[Quote]it is clear that the opinion of a doctor of historical sciences, who studied this problem for many years, has much more weight than the opinion of a stubborn amateur.[/ Quote]
The author of the article forgets, if at all takes into account such things, about personal decency and adherence to principles and impartiality, without which any most professional "doctor of historical sciences" can be just an engaged opportunist with scientific titles.

[/ Quote]In any case, even if we take the smallest number of dead, and this is 2 (2-3) - 2,7 million, it will be obvious that this is not a few thousand and not one million, but all that is more than one, it's a lot"[/ Quote]
Thanks to HanTengri, thank you very much, and the link provided to them for statistics documents of those years
[quote] http://istmat.info/files/uploads/44830/rgae_4372.92.161_l.1-34.pdf
Table No. 3. [/ Quote]
I changed my point of view on the figures of super-mortality of 32-33 years. and forced to recognize the figure of 2,7-2,8 million people. However, the death of so many people by a number of researchers is explained by other reasons, in addition to hunger:
[Quote]Moreover, in the summer of 1932 more people died than in the hungry winter of 1932-1933.
A simple calculation shows that this “abnormal”, abnormal mortality in 1933 accounts for about 75 thousand people in cities and 800 thousand in villages, that is, more than half of those who died in that fateful year in Ukraine, by definition, could not die of hunger. What is the matter? ...
.. The evidence was surprisingly easy. The Dnipropetrovsk regional department of the GPU in a memorandum dated March 5, 1933 reports: “In the Novovasilievsky district, high mortality refers to mass diseases of tropical malaria, which has become a mass epidemic with a large number of deaths.”[/ Quote]
https://lenta.ru/articles/2015/11/28/golodomor
[Quote]Our reader and commentator under the nickname Olgovich didn’t “cheat,” but cited the pure truth in his commentary, even if one considers only this minimum![/ Quote]
It is a rare case, and even then purely formal, since only a liar and a Russophobe can count the false figures from the "works" of Konquist, Kulchitsky and the State Duma's statement "true". And this is confirmed by the fact that Olgovich avoids answering direct questions about both the 7 million figure and the Katyn massacre.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

And this is confirmed by the fact that Olgovich avoids answering direct questions about both the figure of 7 million and the Katyn execution.

SOVIET OFFICIAL FIGURES victims of hunger and its causes -from the statements of your general secretaries, ministers, all kinds of chairmen, owls. "scientists", books, newspapers, programs, monographs -AT THE TABLE!whistle-blower!

RUSSIA-gave an official assessment.

On the Poles, you are all answered.

But did it come to that?

[Sergey S.]

Quote: Olgovich

RUSSIA-gave an official assessment.

They were given not by experts, but by politicians relying on historians.
And what do they understand about overcoming hunger.

I once brought me to a scientific and technical conference, which brought together biologists, physicians and biologists from agricultural. Mainly discussed the problems of genetics in agriculture. According to the modern: it is possible or impossible GMOs, and how to do without it.
...
In one of the speeches it was said that hunger in Russia, as in many other countries, occurred regularly, with a frequency of about 20 years ....
After the report questions rained down, during the break - he was surrounded by ...
The short meaning is that Russian agriculture was extremely backward. Peasants, even in the Stalin years, made up (from memory) about 80% of the population, and could not cope with the food of the city ...
In the post-war period, already one collective farmer fed one citizen ...
While in the most advanced countries of Europe, the farmer fed 4 - 5, and somewhere even 8 townspeople.
At the same time, about 5% of the country's population was already considered the minimum limit for the rural population.

Now about hunger.
The main thesis is the famine of the 1930s - the last famine in the USSR and Russia.
It was collectivization, or rather mechanization, that saved the country and the peoples of the country from future famines.
They themselves did not have time, and future generations saved. And they ensured, including the Great Victory.
It would not be possible to make such massive calls and deploy so many industrial giants if the collective farms worked manually in the old fashioned way ...
Another reason for the famine is well-known and understandable to everyone - a planned economy in the hands of dogmatists.
Plans for harvesting grain were prepared in a single version and did not take into account crop failure ... There is nothing to argue here, everything is clear.
But this lack of leaders has not yet been eradicated ... And ruins ... in other areas ...

And about the family.
Grandmother said that my great-grandfather was the last in the village to join the collective farm ...
With tears he gave away a brand new Riga - a grain barn, two horses, two cows ....
At the same time, my grandmother’s daughter wrote all her life with errors and capital letters, because she went to school only until she was 10 years old. Further work for 14 hours a day. The most joyful thing is to sit at home with youngsters ... and do housework ...
The family has no sympathies for Soviet power. But an understanding of the logic and irreversibility of the historical process is present. So I'm trying to explain something.

By the way, the question is, why do not we discuss the famine of the 1860s, which was really man-made?
After the liberation, some peasants turned out to be landless, and many others sowed just enough to feed themselves .... And they didn’t care what would happen in the cities ... They suffered a lot and broke down in their previous involuntary life ... Apparently, decided ...

[Olgovich]

Quote: Sergey S.

They were given not by experts, but by politicians relying on historians.
And what do they understand about overcoming hunger.

1. Estimates were given by SPECIALISTS-demographers, historians, economists, political scientists, there are many of them

2. NOBODY interferes: THE SOVIET official NUMBERS of the victims of hunger and its causes - from statements by colleagues, secretaries general, ministers, various chairmen, books, newspapers, broadcasts, monographs - ON THE TABLE!

Quote: Sergey S.

The short meaning is that Russian agriculture was extremely backward. Peasants, even in the Stalin years, made up (from memory) about 80% of the population, and could not cope with the food of the city ...

It studied very quickly - before the VOR - about 40% is covered by cooperation, millions studied at agricultural courses.

Quote: Sergey S.

It was collectivization, or rather mechanization, that saved the country and the peoples of the country from future famines.

Collectivization led to the UNKNOWABLE famine: it was in the areas of mass collectivization that it happened.

1,5 million deaths in 1946-48 did not save hunger, wild hungry lines in 1952-53, consumption less than in 1913 until the 1950s is proof of this.

The collection of granary in 1913, 5,27 billion pounds. 1953 g-5,05 billion pounds.

Shame ...

Quote: Sergey S.

They themselves did not have time, and future generations saved. And ensured, including the Great Victory

In the Second World War there were cases of starvation mortality in the rear and even cannibalism, and this with the enormous food assistance of the West! For comparison, in WWI, Russia is the only starving country (except for the USA)

Quote: Sergey S.

It would not be possible to make such massive calls and deploy so many industrial giants if the collective farms worked manually in the old fashioned way.

Who told you that Russia would stand still ?!

She is a leader in the pace of development before the Thief!

Quote: Sergey S.

lans for harvesting grain were prepared in a single version and did not take into account crop failure ... There is nothing to argue here, everything is clear.

Stalin: "The harvest of 1932 is NOT WORSE than 1931"
1
By the way, the question for you is: WHY the leadership did not turn to the WORLD -for helphow in 1921 when such help saved MILLIONS, but was silent about the tragedy?

What right did it have to deprive the dead of this last chance of salvation?

Who gave them such a right?

[Sergey S.]

Quote: Olgovich

She is a leader in the pace of development before the Thief!

Again the same thing ...
Only the leader in terms of lagging behind England, France, the USA.
No tanks, no airplanes in serial production.
And from where - not a single serial engine for tanks or aircraft ....
Where are the motors from? No rolling bearings!
And for sliding bearings, a country with a copper mountain sung by Bazhov imports bearing alloys in volumes up to 90% of what is needed ... Moreover, before the First World War, mainly from Germany.

Then come the storytellers and compose why the evil uncles staged a revolution in the most prosperous country.

Quote: Olgovich

By the way, the question for you is: WHY the leadership did not turn to the WORLD -for helphow in 1921 when such help saved MILLIONS, but was silent about the tragedy?

And how did the WORLD respond to the starving ???
Thanks not to the WORLD, but to the CITIZENS of the WORLD, namely F. Nansen and, oddly enough, to the Americans. I practically don’t know about the help of the rest of the world ...

Our country has provided assistance to others many times and has initiated proposals in this direction. So what...
Almost everything is rejected or even defamated ... So it’s better not to remember the world.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Sergey S.

Again the same thing ...

Where is it?
And here you have instead of a SPECIFIC answer to a SPECIFIC question:

SOVIET official NUMBERS of the victims of hunger and its causes - from statements by colleagues, secretaries general, ministers, various chairmen, books, newspapers, broadcasts, monographs - ON THE TABLE!

- empty, already set the teeth on edge, chatter about "motors".

where are your advised with numbers? Inconvenient questions, huh?

By the way, the first diesel-electric ship in the world, like the world's first diesel substrate-Russian-on Russian diesels. Like the world's first television show and radio and much more

learn what Russian diesel is.

And the pace of industrial development in Russia before the VOR was higher than that of France and Germany.
Vorovtsy also hammered the country into the Stone Age, then courageously overcame, yes ...
and your answer is no:

Collectivization led to the UNKNOWABLE famine: it was in the areas of mass collectivization that it happened.

1,5 million deaths in 1946-48 did not save hunger, wild hungry lines in 1952-53, consumption less than in 1913 until the 1950s is proof of this.

The collection of granary in 1913, 5,27 billion pounds. 1953 g-5,05 billion pounds.

and it’s clear: you again have NOTHING to answer ...

Quote: Sergey S.

And how did the WORLD respond to the starving ???
Thanks not to the WORLD, but to the CITIZENS of the WORLD, namely F. Nansen and, oddly enough, to the Americans. I practically don’t know about the help of the rest of the world ...

and we ought to know - these people saved us - even the starving Germans helped, the Swedes, the British, all took part overe 30 public international and national organizations various social and confessional orientations from America, Europe, Asia

Quote: Sergey S.

Our country has provided assistance to others many times and has initiated proposals in this direction. So what...
Almost everything is rejected or even defamated ... So it’s better not to remember the world.

what is the habit of answering questions .... whatever, but not the answer?

You can not answer. I am ashamed. say so!

One more time:

WHY the leadership did not turn to the WORLD for help, as in 1921 when such help saved MILLIONS, but was silent about the tragedy?

What right did it have to deprive the dead of this last chance of salvation?

Who gave them such a right?

?

[Sergey S.]

Quote: Olgovich

And here you have instead of a SPECIFIC answer to a SPECIFIC question:
SOVIET official NUMBERS of the victims of hunger and its causes - from statements by colleagues, secretaries general, ministers, various chairmen, books, newspapers, broadcasts, monographs - ON THE TABLE!
- empty, already set the teeth on edge, chatter about "motors".

Have you read my post, written on the basis of communication with specialists of the highest level?
There was no denial of hunger, there was no political husk ...
Are you hungry in the period after the abolition of serfdom figured out?

Now about your question.
I understand, it is difficult for you to understand my main idea.
It is about the fact that the problem of hunger in the 1930s faced our people for the last time.
Of course, war made adjustments. When only women remained in the villages, and then armless and legless ones were added (sorry for the bare truth without embellishment), when the fascists captured the grain fields and crops, it was difficult to avoid starvation ...
... and my relatives ate in the village, including swans and nettles ...
My mother returned to Leningrad from Vesyegonsky district with a 12-year-old girl. Somewhere the children were invited and given a gift - sweets, something like a cake - she ate and cried.

But one must have a conscience, for these tears the Germans answered ...
And you are always looking for enemies among our people. And it is precisely among those who gave their lives for the future of our people. And they ran into one-sided political stupidity - blame the Bolsheviks for everything ...
I am ready to discuss any political misconceptions; I myself can be mistaken.
But I call bastards only those who spit in the souls of people who lie for personal gain and who live by open robbery - a rentier, the appropriation of profits made by the team and appropriated by the owner or boss ...

And do not demand from me social statistics.
I practically do not use these numbers. Due to the fact that I do not believe them, neither today's Russian, nor Soviet, nor foreign, nor royal, even ancient Greek.
For some chiefs published them for some purpose ...

The area that is known professionally is not discussed at all in posts about the current state ... For I love my homeland, and I can’t afford to destroy fairy tales for children and the faith in Santa Claus.

So I didn’t publish any figures and I’m not going to publish further.
You could have guessed it yourself. And just like MariVanna from the fifth grader, it makes no sense to demand crazy posts from me.

Quote: Olgovich

where are your advised with numbers? Inconvenient questions, huh?

My good friends, scientists who started working in Soviet times, do not deal with propaganda issues ...
Moreover, probably, it is already clear that I am not friends with such persons ...
neither with the Soviet nor with the imperialist ...

Quote: Olgovich

By the way, the first diesel-electric ship in the world, like the world's first diesel substrate-Russian-on Russian diesels. Like the world's first television show and radio and much more
learn what Russian diesel is.

Yes ... Advocates have read ...
So.
1. The first diesel-electric ship motor ship in the world - I mean an oil-loading self-propelled barge, now the river tanker, "Vandal", would be classified. It was actually built in Russia in Sormovo. The diesel-electric installation was mounted in St. Petersburg at the Ludwig Nobel plant, but the diesels were manufactured in Sweden at the Nobile plant, but by a Swedish family ...
2. The world's first diesel submarine - meaning "Lamprey", built by the Baltic Shipyard. It actually had two diesel engines from the Ludwig Nobel plant, which we consider to be the first reversible four-stroke diesels. This is of course a success ... But one must bear in mind that a little earlier the German company MAN made the first reversible diesel engines for a French submarine ... and the French refused to operate them due to low reliability. By the way, the French also missed their mark and replaced diesel engines with steam engines.
And on the "Lamprey" mechanics, headed by our famous diesel submariner G.M. Trusovs exploited domestic diesels heroically ... G.M. himself. Trusov called diesels "Lampreys" - "diesel in two sledgehammers". Two parking brakes hung on straps at the ends of the diesel engine. To start the engine, it was necessary to perform all the stipulated actions and hit the fuel rail, which was stuck in the Hartrung regulator. And to stop, put the steering wheel on a stop, and beat the handbrake from the other side ...
And this is all about the "Russian Diesel", that is, about the "Ludwig Nobel" plant.

Quote: Olgovich

And the pace of industrial development in Russia before the VOR was higher than that of France and Germany.
Vorovtsy also hammered the country into the Stone Age, then courageously overcame, yes ...
and your answer is no:

I can’t answer such a thing in the literary language.
But I wonder, is it when, after the Great October Socialist Revolution, our country was associated with the Stone Age?
There are two options:
1. In the period before the implementation of the GOELRO plan.
2. After the voucherization of the whole country and predatory mortgage auctions.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Sergey S.

Have you read my post, written on the basis of communication with specialists of the highest level?
There was no denial of hunger, there was no political husk ...

That is, you confirm. that during the Soviet era, the worst catastrophe in the history of our country in peacetime was NOT investigated, not mentioned, NOT recognized, NOT discussed, NOT immortalized, just like there were no such people in the world.

I note that the problems of mortality, feeding and conservation .... CATTLE in the same time -Discussed at the Politburo. SNK, the press, etc.

For you, this is normal, but for normal people, no

Quote: Sergey S.

It is about the fact that the problem of hunger in the 1930s faced our people for the last time.

Lying.

Wild hunger with swelling and starvation were and in 1937, (the year of built socialism!) starved in 1939,1940gg.

absolutely terrible famine, death and cannibalism in 1946-48 with casualties from 800 to 000 people. In Gagauzia, up to 1% of the village population died.
and yes, in the war there wasn’t even that!

Hungry 1951,52,53

you pretend you don’t see, and I repeat:
The amount of barn grain 1913 5,27 billion pounds. 1953 g-5,05 billion pounds. (statement by the Secretary General).

And this is a SHAME!

Quote: Sergey S.

And you are always looking for enemies among our people.

lying again: show where I said it.

Quote: Sergey S.

And it is precisely among those who gave their lives for the future of our people. And they ran into one-sided political stupidity - blame the Bolsheviks for everything.

The people gave for their freedom many more livesthan the Bolsheviks, see structure of losses in the Second World War.

Who leads, he is responsible, do not know this elementary rule?

And their result, over 70 years, is the EXTINCTION of the Russian people towards the end of their power and the borders of the 17th CENTURY. Those. titanic work of the Russian people for centuriescat under the tail!

Quote: Sergey S.

Yes ... Advocates have read ...
So.

Facts are Just Facts

Quote: Sergey S.

So I didn’t publish any figures and I’m not going to publish further.
You could have guessed it yourself. And just like MariVanna from the fifth grader, it makes no sense to demand crazy posts from me.

Your numbers are of no interest to anyone. Interested in the numbers of the authority you mention

Quote: Sergey S.

And this is all about the "Russian Diesel", that is, about the "Ludwig Nobel" plant.

Those. You do not know what Russian diesel is and why it is so named.

Quote: Sergey S.

I can’t answer such a thing in the literary language.

Yes, you DO NOT FOR ANY QUESTION can answer in Russian, directly, briefly specifically: read WHAT is asked and WHAT by you ...... is answered

Quote: Sergey S.

But I wonder, is it when, after the Great October Socialist Revolution, our country was associated with the Stone Age?
There are two options:
1. In the period before the implementation of the GOELRO plan.
2. After the voucherization of the whole country and predatory mortgage auctions

One option - as a result of the VOR and its GV, ALL industry was destroyed, s * x, science, culture, education. Somehow, as soon as the level of 1913 was restored, it was possible only by 1930, i.e. ten years for development - thrown down the drain.

And yes, I’ll ask. just in case, THIRD TIME !:

П

WHY did the leadership not turn to the WORLD — for help, as in 1921 when such help saved MILLIONS, but was silent about the tragedy?

What right did it have to deprive the dead of this last chance of salvation?

Who gave them such a right?

You can, at least once, "notice" the question and answer it to the point?

[Sergey S.]

Quote: Olgovich

That is, you confirm. that during the Soviet era, the worst catastrophe in the history of our country in peacetime was NOT investigated, not mentioned, NOT recognized, NOT discussed, NOT immortalized, just like there were no such people in the world.

What do you mean confirm?
Neither I nor you are given the right to confirm or refute real events.
If you were correct, you would ask something like - Do you know ....
But I do not ask you, do you confirm that the Great Social Event in the history of mankind was the Great October Socialist Revolution?
As a balanced person, I only need my knowledge of the subject, and I do not require confirmation from anyone.
You, with a strange pressure for discussion, demand from the interlocutor denials, affirmations, repetitions.
This is not correct in relation to your counterpart.
It is no secret that our society is split into red and white.
And ideological battles do not subside ... television witness ...
Someone short-sighted believed that the development of society can be directed forcibly wherever you want, then choose smart, (this is about V.I. Lenin), strong (this is about I.V. Stalin), just a charismatic leader (this is about EBN) or rich (they are forever behind ...).
In fact, history has its own laws, which are also the laws of Nature. And our task is to identify these laws and apply them for the good of our people. But what kind of isism will be realized is not the main thing. The main thing is that development should be faster, citizens develop and multiply, and happiness grows ....

And in your quote there is not a single correct word.
Hunger. that is, the scientific works of Soviet scientists are devoted to crop failures and successive multiple crop failures. I began with the fact that, not being a specialist in this field, due to organizational circumstances, I attended a public discussion of these problems. “So,” she said.

Personally, I knew about the terrible famine from childhood from my family - my grandfather was the first to leave the village for Leningrad, settled down, "ordered" my grandmother to his place, - the number of hungry mouths decreased ... At scientific conferences this was discussed. - So, - this terrible problem was mentioned and, therefore, admitted.

If researched and mentioned, then discussed.

But about "immortalized", you are right. We have no tradition of erecting monuments to the defeats of the Russian army, to the troubles of the Russian state.
More precisely, until the recent past it was not. There were monuments in cemeteries, including memorials.
Why, after 1991, repentant monuments were imposed on us, it becomes clear only now, when it came to denying the Great Victory, the Greatness of the Motherland, the Greatness of the Russian people.
Is it really not clear. There is nothing for us to repent of. Our history is complex, events are multidirectional, but this is our history.

But about "how there weren't these people in the world" I can not understand, what are you talking about? People died 90 years ago. The cruel war cut so many families to the root ... And this is also the law of History. In order to be remembered about a person, it is necessary to create something outstanding for people. We remember Alexander Nevsky Dmitry Pozharsky, Alexander Suvorov, Prince Bagrationi, General Ermolov, Admiral Nakhimov, artist Vereshchagin, F.M. Dostoevsky, D.I. Mendeleev, pilot Nesterov, Marshal Zhukov, Academician Aleksandrov, Yuri Gagarin.
I hope I was able to create a list of indisputable names.
The memory of ordinary people, unfortunately, remains in the closest ones even if a person’s life was consistent with our ideals - disinterested, working. caring ...
Therefore, attempts to perpetuate the memory of innocent victims are attempts at a kind of public censure ... which. usually. made by groups of people. not having real support among the masses.
I am writing about this with regret. The topic is sad. But it is not worthy to arrange political trials on a mountain of people, moreover, without delving into the natural essence of the problem.
I do not regret that I got involved in a meaningless argument, but I regret that the topic in which all people have approximately the same point of view on the event itself caused a political battle for the right to be the most intelligent and conscientious.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Sergey S.

What do you mean confirm?
Neither I nor you are given the right to confirm or refute real events.
If you were correct, you would ask something like - Do you know ..

You, with a strange pressure for discussion, demand from the interlocutor denials, affirmations, repetitions.

All you need is ANSWER to a specific question. all!

And we have a conversation between the blind and the deaf: you about Thomas, you about ... Erem.

Moreover, the further I talk about Thomas, the more you ... about Yerem!

And it even becomes interesting: how LONG can you stay in this outline of NONSENSE!

so, for the FOURTH TIME I ask SPECIFIC questions:

Collectivization led to the UNKNOWABLE famine: it was in the areas of mass collectivization that it happened.

from starvation, death * 0,8 * 1,5 million in 1946-48 did not save, wild hungry lines in 1952-53, consumption less than in 1913 until the 1950s is proof of this.

The collection of granary in 1913, 5,27 billion pounds. 1953 g-5,05 billion pounds.

Agree / No?

The following simple question:

WHY the leadership did not turn to the WORLD for help, as in 1921 when such help saved MILLIONS, but was silent about the tragedy?

What right did it have to deprive the dead of this last chance of salvation?

Who gave them such a right?

Again DO NOT SEE the question?

You tried to give one answer:

Quote: Sergey S.

And in your quote there is not a single correct word.
Hunger. that is, the scientific works of Soviet scientists are devoted to crop failures and successive multiple crop failures.

But again, very rude and disrespectful to the interlocutor, LIED: NO work, analysis of Soviet scientists about the disaster of 32-33 years, there is no infestation of your politicians, leaders and there is NOTHING!

But there are letters from Sholokhov to Stalin and reports on how they tortured, beaten, blackmailed, and bullied the peasants.

[Sergey S.]

Quote: Olgovich

And we have a conversation between the blind and the deaf

Your recognition of blindness is enough for me.
Good luck!

[Olgovich]

Quote: Sergey S.

Your recognition of blindness is enough for me.
Good luck!

Shame .....

Cowardice, ignorance, illiteracy and idle talk-that you fell asleep, instead of specific answers, comments.

What for?!

[sniperino]

Quote: Sergey S.

attempts to perpetuate the memory of innocent victims are attempts at a kind of public censure

I would leave one monument to the victims of the fratricidal war where there are unidentified remains of the Reds and Whites, I would reburial the former enemies in one mass grave and lay flowers on November 7, otherwise many still do not understand: "with whom is reconciliation, with whom consent "

[Sergey S.]

Quote: Olgovich

Those. You do not know what Russian diesel is and why it is so named.

I tried to explain to you that you personally take information from charlatans or lay people, possibly from Wiki, when I try to explain your technical illiteracy to you, you are simply angry and incapable of perceiving information.
It turns out that your posts are completely unreliable facts, and this does not bother you.

As for the "Russian Diesel" I didn't even understand, did you know that this plant in the past was named "Ludwig Nobel"?

And the last one. Why do you think it is possible to poke a stranger who is trying to help you better understand the issue under discussion? What are the causes of extreme negligence in thoughts, letters and punctuation? Do not respect me, as I understand you, but other forum users will obviously read you ...
At first I thought you were a descendant of an officer of the tsarist army or a nobleman .... It doesn't seem like ...

[Olgovich]

Quote: Sergey S.

Quote: Olgovich

Those. You do not know what Russian diesel is and why it is so named.

I tried to explain to you that you personally have information take from charlatans or non-professionals, possibly from Wiki, when I try to explain your technical illiteracyYou are just angry, and not capable of perceiving information.
Пunreliable facts in your posts, and it doesn’t bother you.

..

Everything is written correctly and correctly for me. None of the facts you have denied. No one.

At the same time you:

1. do not know how, alas, to read in Russian - deny that which has not been stated

2. Run away from the topic.

Quote: Sergey S.

As for the "Russian Diesel" I didn't even understand, did you know that this plant in the past was named "Ludwig Nobel"?

You apparently don’t even know that Nobili became Russian back in the early 19th century.
Why Russian Diesel, you don’t know, alas

Quote: Sergey S.

And the last one. Why do you think it is possible to poke a stranger who is trying to help you better understand the issue under discussion?

1. You lie sadly: NEVER you poked. And for what?

2. what to understand ??

Quote: Sergey S.

What are the causes of extreme negligence in thoughts, letters and punctuation?

Wow, you’re also an expert on the Russian language!

Offhand: finally learn what "introductory words" are and how they stand out in Russian. You often use them, but ... absolutely illiterate, alas.

Negligence? Illiteracy? Disrespect for the interlocutor?

ps I sometimes skip the comma, in a hurry, and not ... "as a sign of disrespect"

And yes:

Quote: Sergey S.

Do not respect me, as I understand you, but other forum users will obviously read you ...

Quote: Sergey S.

At first I thought you were a descendant of an officer of the tsarist army or a nobleman .... It doesn't seem like ...

oh, I have much better blood: I am a descendant of RUSSIAN PEASANTS.
And proud of it!

[Sergey S.]

Quote: Olgovich

You apparently don’t even know that Nobili became Russian back in the early 19th century.

Ha-ha-ha!
And, like real Russians, they fled to Sweden ....

That's enough.
You even write a surname with an error ... For in Nobel they write them, and those who knew them personally pronounce with an emphasis on the last syllable - Nobel ...

And so in every paragraph. Three lines, figuratively, four errors each.
And you advocate with such material here for Russia - competent, friendly, strong and beautiful ...?
All your activity on Topvar is compromising evidence on real Russia.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Sergey S.

And, like real Russians, they fled to Sweden ....

You even last name write with an error.

Oh yes, this is a big typo, yes! Weli!

For the sake of her, it’s worth, yes, to dirty the monitor ..

Quote: Sergey S.

And so in every paragraph. Three lines, figuratively, four errors each.

1 present them, you liar. Like the facts "poking you what you mean brazenly lied earlier.

2. Introductory words mastered, finally?

3. Now learn, finally, what is taught in the third grade. about the union of "I" and commas.

Aren't you ashamed to write SO ?:

Sergey S You are just angrysmiling and nnot capable of perceiving information.
It turns out that your posts are completely unreliable faqt, and BThis does not bother you.

And where necessary, there’s a comma ... no

And so-in ... EVERY paragraph!

Shame ...

Quote: Sergey S.

And you advocate with such material here for Russia - competent, friendly, strong and beautiful ...?

And you are with this .. oh! , such "knowledge" - in the Kalashny series?

Quote: Sergey S.

All your activity on Topvar is compromising evidence on real Russia

I express my opinion on the topics of articles, and do not "act" - for this, there are comments.

You are discussing .... me, and even give me ratings (chihabelny) ...

You have nothing to do?

PS I will wait. someday, the answer to the questions posed by the TOPIC of the article (repeat them to you FIFTH TIME ?!

No, of course, I won’t wait, because you are afraid to answer, you are not able to answer, you have nothing to answer.

So admit it directly, and do not bother your head, and even around the bush ... commas

[Sergey S.]

Quote: Olgovich

Now learn, finally, what they teach in the THIRD grade about the conjunction "I" and commas.

Again pierced ....
This is you about two sentences ... related ... There the comma is due to the requirement to separate completed semantic constructions.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Sergey S.

This is you about two sentences ... Related... .

What is this incoherent nonsense?

Quote: Sergey S.

. There, the comma is determined by the requirement to separate completed semantic constructions.

1st sentence: "you" and "you",
2nd sentence "you and" yours.

What ... "constructions", what ... comma after "and"?

What are you carrying ?

Shame ....

You flood-not tired?

It’s just amusing to me HOW you bob your head around letters and commas ..... NOT answering questions about the ARTICLE.
And let me ask SIXTH time:

WHY the leadership did not turn to the WORLD for help, as in 1921 when such help saved MILLIONS, but was silent about the tragedy?

What right did it have to deprive the dead of this last chance of salvation?

Who gave them such a right?

If you don’t answer the questions, then again, don’t bother to write, you’re tired of penny quibbles ....

[sniperino]

Quote: Olgovich

oh, I have much better blood: I am a descendant of RUSSIAN PEASANTS. And proud of it!

Do not overdo it with pride. I have nothing against the Russian peasants, and my ancestors are there, but when I saw in Tatarstan and at the entrance to it beautiful, lovingly groomed houses and courtyards in Tatar villages and shabby, neglected in Russians, for some reason I was a little ashamed.

[Olgovich]

Quote: sniperino

Do not overdo it with pride.

Do not overdo it with tips - nobody needs them.

Quote: sniperino

but when I saw in Tatarstan and at the entrance to it beautiful, lovingly groomed houses and courtyards in Tatar villages and shabby, launched in Russians, for some reason I was a little ashamed.

70 years robbed Russians in favor of ALL-remember this.
In 1989, Russia subsidized small Moldova for a BILLION rubles, ($ 1,5 billion) - and so, every year and to every national.

[sniperino]

Quote: Olgovich

In 1989, Russia subsidized each nationality.

In the Ulyanovsk region, villages with a predominantly Tatar population were given subsidies, but not with a Russian? Or were they given out according to the "nationality" column in the passport? Stop lying. Subsidized regions were determined by economic, not ethnic, indicators.

[Olgovich]

Quote: sniperino

In the Ulyanovsk region, villages with a predominantly Tatar population were given subsidies, but not with a Russian? Or were they given out according to the "nationality" column in the passport? Stop lying.

To school, ignoramus!

And your advice-there-in-one company with the Soviets!

Bullied already with his illiteracy ....

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Olgovich

Collectivization led to the UNKNOWABLE famine: it was in the areas of mass collectivization that it happened.

False Olgych, as usual, in the year 21 there was no collectivization, but there was hunger.

Quote: Olgovich

It studied very quickly - before the VOR - about 40% is covered by cooperation, millions studied at agricultural courses

Will false Olga give a link?

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Olgovich

RUSSIA-gave an official assessment.

State Duma is not Russia

Quote: Olgovich

On the Poles, you are all answered.

False Olgych in his repertoire. There is no answer to direct questions. But I will repeat:
Does Olgych recognize that he is the figures of the "Holodomor" drawn by the enemies of Russia, and recognized by the State Duma, directly harming modern Russia? Yes or no?
Does Olgych admit that he supports the Polish-Nazi version of the Katyn case, recognized by the State Duma, directly harming modern Russia? Yes or no?
Just either yes or no.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

False Olgych in his repertoire. There is no answer to direct questions.

This is Vovochka's answer from 2nd "U" .. to a direct question:

SOVIET official figures of the victims of hunger and its causes -from the statements of your general secretaries, ministers, all kinds of chairmen, Sov. "scientists", books, newspapers, programs, monographs - ON THE TABLE !, exposer of lies!

?
a disgrace ....

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Does Olgych recognize that he is for numbers "Holodomor" withdrawn by the enemies of Russia, and recognized State Duma, right harmful modern Russia? Yes or no?

even the 2nd grade of special schools makes it possible to formulate the PO-Russian question. But alas. it is not given to you.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

State Duma is not Russia

The State Duma-LEGISLATIVE AUTHORITY OF RUSSIA, elected in direct, free, universal, secret, competitive, equal elections of the PEOPLE. Chop on your forehead. There wasn’t any such thing with you.

Got it, no?

Not Russia is a power that NOBODY NEVER EVER elected, but which, with its incompetence, ignorance and stupidity, led to the death of 7 million people in peacetime in a few months. - Many times more than in WWI

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Does Olgych admit that he supports the Polish-Nazi version of the Katyn case, recognized by the State Duma, directly harming modern Russia? Yes or no?

You are answered in the appropriate topic. Today is OTHER, a Flood lover.

[kalibr]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

I changed my point of view on the figures of super-mortality of 32-33 years. and forced to recognize the figure of 2,7-2,8 million people.

Well, well, at least that is good. To begin with ... As for tropical malaria, there will be a good comment below ... That it was so deadly at 33, but not at all fatal in the 34th. That is, also the inventions of the woman who invented this. But God is with her. So far, this is enough. Good. And here’s the answer from the archive so that no one would blame me that I didn’t even write there and that’s all scarecrows:

Force majeure circumstances. But we will return to this topic when the epidemic subsides.

[Olgovich]

Quote: kalibr

Force majeure circumstances. But we will return to this topic when the epidemic subsides.

Hello, Vyacheslav Olegovich!

Yes, no one doubts ...


Tell me, Vyacheslav Olegovich, if it doesn’t complicate: what is wrong with these questions of mine regarding the deaths of 32-33 g:

WHY the leadership of the country did not apply to WORLD - for helpas in 1921 when such help saved MILLIONS, but- was silent about the tragedy?

What right did it have to deprive the dead of this last chance of salvation?

Who gave them such a right?

?

Whoever I ask them (resp. Vladimir 2 y, Sergey S. and others), they all fall .... in a stupor!

In the best case, they start ... the comma counters (illiterate) or carry something about ..doOR engines!

And ... not a word on the topic ....

[kalibr]

Therefore they bear that there is nothing to say in response. But this will be. Material about the hunger of the 21st and the role of the ARA in its elimination, and there is also the answer to your question. It was like this: I was preparing an article about hunger in the 21st for scientific publication, and I formatted a lot of central and local newspapers. But something did not grow together ... and only the popular version of this material remained. I’ll probably give it now. And then, when isolation ceases, I’ll shoot everything in the newspapers again.

[Olgovich]

Quote: kalibr

Therefore they bear that there is nothing to say in response. But this will be. Material about the hunger of the 21st and the role of the ARA in its elimination, and there is also the answer to your question
Reply

Thanks and look forward to!

[kalibr]

In principle, the material is written. But moderation is already 6, so it will be 7, this is at least a week and a half ...

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: kalibr

Well, well, at least that is good. To start

Do you imagine that this is your merit? And yet, we are talking about supermortality.

Quote: kalibr

As for tropical malaria there will be a good comment below ...

And where is?

Quote: kalibr

That she was so deadly at 33, but not at all deadly at 34th. That is, also the inventions of the woman who invented this.

The difference between 33 and 34 years is analyzed.

In Ukraine, the peak incidence occurred in 1934, but mortality did not increase that year. Why?
We can only guess about the reasons - but we can guess. Firstly, in 1934 there was no famine, the population was stronger - because an organism weakened by hunger resists any disease worse. Secondly, as we have already written, four forms of malaria are known, and only one is especially dangerous. There is no disaggregation by type of disease in the TSUNHU data. However, simple logic says that during an epidemic, the struggle is primarily with the most dangerous forms, and if the Ministry of Health of Ukraine has focused on areas affected by tropical malaria (even to the detriment of others), such a mismatch could very well have occurred.

Well, in addition to malaria, there was typhoid, for example.

In 1933, over one hundred thousand people exceeded the indicators for typhus (212 people) and malaria (644 people)

http://m.log-in.ru/books/reader/elena-prudnikova-ivan-chigirin-mifologiya-golodomora/

Quote: kalibr

That is, also the inventions of the woman who invented this. But God is with her.

Not fiction but one of the versions, and it’s very believable and verifiable, as it turns out. Well, this woman, as a historian, with archival figures is better than you can work even though she is not a historian by education.

Quote: kalibr

And here’s the answer from the archive so that no one blames me that I didn’t even write there

Yes, please, what will it prove, that you are far from objectivity and profitable to you and people like Olgych and other Russophobes? We are already in the know.
It’s funny by the way, I specifically checked it, but for this article your comments appeared only a couple of days after publication, and for the rest your comments appear almost immediately.
Coincidence? I do not think.

[icelord]

Do you consider yourself more informed than the Russian government? It can attract any experts, so yes, and Katyn and the Holodomor, a refutation will be another matter

[sniperino]

Quote: Olgovich

The census of 1937 showed ... 162 million instead of 177 million - CATASTROPHE!

Who promised and when?

On January 6, 1937, a new population census (P. n.) Of the USSR was conducted. However, in view of the fact that they made their way to the leadership of P. n. the enemies of socialism — the Trotskyist-Bukharin agents of foreign intelligence — wreckedly organized P. SNK of the USSR in a resolution of September 23, 1937 recognized the organization P. n. unsatisfactory, and the census materials themselves are defective. SNK of the USSR indicated that P. n. 1937 was held TsUNHU Gosplan of the USSR with a gross violation of the elementary foundations of statistical science, as well as a violation of government-approved instructions.

No? For this they shot the guilty or innocent?

[Olgovich]

Quote: sniperino

Who promised and when?

read / count, do not know how?
Stalin, in 1930, 1935 our growth of 3 million

Stalin, 1934us 168 million

The census of 1937 showed ... 162 million instead of 177 million.

What's not clear?

Quote: sniperino

On January 6, 1937, a new population census (P. n.) Of the USSR was conducted. However, in view of the fact that they made their way to the leadership of P. n. the enemies of socialism — the Trotskyist-Bukharin agents of foreign intelligence — wreckedly organized P. n., the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR in a resolution of September 23, 1937 recognized the organization of P. n. unsatisfactory, and the census materials themselves are defective. SNK of the USSR indicated that P. n. 1937 was held TsUNHU Gosplan of the USSR with a gross violation of the elementary foundations of statistical science, as well as a violation of government-approved instructions.
No? For this they shot the guilty or innocent?

what strange questions: of course, innocent, they have long been all are justified. The leader was even awarded for the census — before the execution — as far as I remember ...

so called SNK, versed in the science of statistics, like a pig in oranges, attributed the criminal consequences of its incompetent, ignorant, adventurous so-called to specialists. "activities" for the leadership of the country

[sniperino]

Quote: Olgovich

Stalin, 1934, us 168 million

By the year 34, he still did not have a vertical of power, allowing him to get an objective picture throughout the country and from places, and not one in which the authorities always and everywhere act optimally, sometimes even selflessly

Quote: Olgovich

what strange questions: of course, innocent, they have long beenall are justified.

I have no more confidence in acquittals of the 90s than in those of 30s. Yes, and under Khrushchev, laundered in question, and not otmazyvayutsya. Or is the political engagement of the courts a thing of the past? Typing from simple questions, or what is their "weirdness"

[Olgovich]

Quote: sniperino

By the year 34, he still did not have a vertical of power, allowing him to get an objective picture throughout the country and from places, and not one in which the authorities always and everywhere act optimally, sometimes even selflessly

and?

Ignorance gives the right to risky adventures such as collectivization, not agreed upon by anyone and not supported by anyone?

Do you know how many YEARS they give for killing one person inadvertently?
There are millions ...

Quote: sniperino

I have no more confidence in acquittals of the 90s than in those of 30s. Yes, and under Khrushchev, laundered in question, and not otmazyvayutsya. Or is the political engagement of the courts a thing of the past? Typing from simple questions, or what is their "weirdness"

How many months / years does the process related to terrorism, treason, etc., last?
And how many MINUTES like, the "trial" lasted in the 1930s, when sentences were passed in a year by millions.

[sniperino]

Quote: Olgovich

Ignorance gives the right to risky adventures such as collectivization, not agreed upon by anyone and not supported by anyone?

Was there then an opportunity without collectivization to urgently carry out industrialization? I guess not. And without industrialization, we would certainly not have won the war. Thank God, I have never been able to choose between millions and tens of millions, but I think it’s difficult. Do you have a plan, how then could this be avoided? You may not answer strange questions, I ask them to myself.

[Olgovich]

Quote: sniperino

Was there then an opportunity without collectivization to urgently carry out industrialization? I guess not. And without industrialization, we would definitely not have won the war

1. there is a rule: If you do not know how otherwise, DO NOT TAKE!

2. In any case, the people are not used! And I didn’t sign up for such sacrifices, I would never allow such a thing and I would never allow it, like yourself, knowing that your children may suffer from hunger and die !. .

I know that people were not then thick-skinned and less vulnerable. They suffered terrible, inhuman suffering, watching how slowly, in torment, those who are closest to all are fading away. What can justify this?

Answer yourself honestly to this question!


3. By 1928, the agricultural sector had almost recovered. You just had to leave the peasants alone, provide them with goods, good prices and they would flood the country.

Can not, can not? Go away, let those who can and can do it!

4. Bread did not play a special kind in export; there the main thing was forest. But from death he would save!

5. Therefore, to take away really the last, in the suspicion that they are "hiding" a lot of grain, there was not much meaning.

6. The USSR could and had to (if he cares about his citizens) he will turn to WORLD FOR HELP, as it was only 10 years ago, when the world, exhausted by the WWII, still saved MILLIONS from death.
it was impossible to keep silent and lie about the fact that everything is good is a crime against the starving!

7. and yes: the catastrophe of hunger very badly affected the very sterilization itself ....

Quote: sniperino

You may not answer strange questions, I ask them to myself.

Why is it strange? Didn’t I ask them myself? And how!

For me, trained at the Soviet school-institute-army, these famines never existed, because they were not in the textbooks, and people were simply afraid to talk about it.

Then it just came out worse and worse ...

There is quite a communist site "Historical Materials". There are collected documents = primary sources-summaries of the OGPU, NKVD, (very interesting in terms of the mood of the peasants, vysturleniya, prodzaddeniyam), letters, Decisions and pr-http: //istmat.info/node/43753- there from the year 1927 to 1939. about what was happening below, among the people. A lot, but you can master it.

And, I will not tell you, just type "cannibalism in the country, and read the reports of the same NKVD in the Yeisk district, etc., etc."

It's creepy to read ...

[sniperino]

I haven’t read the whole answer yet, but it requires an explanation of item 2. What question should I answer? Would I have begun to carry out collectivization in order to have time to prepare for a war with the German Nazis, whom the Anglo-Saxons have fostered since 1919, if I had not seen another way? Naturally. Arguments like "but it was not necessary at all ..." I certainly would not suit me, since ...

[Olgovich]

Quote: sniperino

but requires clarification of paragraph 2. What question should I answer ?.

2 a. In any case, the people are not used to! And I didn’t sign up for such sacrifices, I would never allow such a thing, and I would never allow it, as and you yourself, knowing that your children may suffer from hunger and die !? .

2b of 2a: What can justify this?

[sniperino]

Quote: Olgovich

3. By 1928, the agricultural sector had almost recovered. You just had to leave the peasants alone, provide them with goods, good prices and they would flood the country.

It’s great only where it was to hire migrant workers who could arrange the release of Katyush, T-34 and so on.

[Olgovich]

Quote: sniperino

It’s great only where it was to hire migrant workers who could arrange the release of Katyush, T-34 and so on.

As in ALL TIMES hired in the WORLD.

"Don't you know how? -From the beach!"

[icelord]

there wouldn’t have been another war, there would have been, but most likely the Germans would have never been trapped in the PMV

[sniperino]

Quote: Olgovich

worse and worse ...

About the horrors of that famine, I heard from eyewitnesses as a child, I definitely won’t get into the archives. But this is to the thesis about the benefits of fasting, and not about our question.

[Olgovich]

Quote: sniperino

But this is to the thesis about the benefits of fasting, and not about our question.

I didn’t understand anything: what is the use of what fasting? Who switched to cannibalism?

Quote: sniperino

not about our question.

This is my question

[sniperino]

Quote: Olgovich

I didn’t understand anything: what is the use of what fasting?

I am not discussing the question of whether the famine was terrible, but I raise the question of what the alternative was. You cannot present it from the word at all, but you are carrying something about "ALL TIMES AROUND THE WORLD." At that time, who would have come to us without a weapon? Moreover, to build factories, produce equipment? American unemployed?

[Olgovich]

Quote: sniperino

I do not discuss the question of whether the famine was terrible, but I ask the question, what was the alternative. You present it can't from the word at all,

READ ONCE AGAIN all 7 pointsif it didn’t get right away!

And everyone would be alive.

Quote: sniperino

but you are carrying something about "ALL TIMES AROUND THE WORLD". At that time, who would have come to us without a weapon? Moreover, to build factories, production

HIRING PEOPLE-come on, no?

They offer MONEY, CONDITIONS, BENEFITS and people go, study, work.

which ... without weapons? Are you out of your mind?

[sniperino]

Quote: Olgovich

Are you out of your mind?

Yes. Which I wish you too. And further. Bydovlivost and rudeness can not be justified by peasant origin. If you did not know.

[Olgovich]

Quote: sniperino

Yes. .

Do you judge?

Quote: sniperino

And further. Bydovlivost and rudeness can not be justified by peasant origin ..

And who justifies you?

PS There are no answers to the questions ... NOT ONE ..

Shame ....

[sniperino]

Quote: Olgovich

Can not, can not? Go away, let those who can and can do it!

In that situation, it’s more like giving up and running away. Do you think that there were many people around who knew and knew how to carry out forced modernization of such countries? I strongly doubt this, as well as the fact that after Stalin left the power would not have started without the mitigation of the reactionary classes, and the catastrophe of hunger and subsequent occupation could be total and probably the last for Russia.

[Olgovich]

Quote: sniperino

More like giving up and running away. Do you think that there were many people around who knew and knew how to carry out forced modernization of such countries?

And this "expert" was, right?

It is visible from the millions who died of starvation.

Quote: sniperino

I strongly doubt this, as well as the fact that after Stalin left the power would not have started without the mitigation of the reactionary classes, and the catastrophe of hunger and subsequent occupation would be total and probably the last for Russia.

guesses ...

And in Russia before the red starvation with deaths it has long been gone, and such a terrible catastrophe, generally did not exist, is a fact

Without them, 1945 would simply have simply taken place in 1918 - this is a fact.

Without them, Russia is a miracle, how it grew in territories and people for THOUSAND years.

After them, catastrophe with everything.

And yes, Stalin did not speak at all, did not write, was silent about the NEED of millions of victims for the sake of sterilization. Silent, for some reason.
The rest of the Bolsheviks were silent. Until they poked face . Why so?

were shy, right?
Think yes.

Reply, look, do not want:

2 a. In any case, the people are not used to! And I didn’t subscribe to such sacrifices, I never allowed such a thing and I would never allow it, just like You yourself, knowing that your children may suffer from hunger and die !? .

2b of 2a: What can justify this?

But the HONEST answer removes ALL the questions are strange ...

[sniperino]

Quote: Olgovich

You yourself, knowing that your children may suffer from hunger and die !?

That hunger is a significant moment in the history of my family, and it took several of my relatives uncles and aunts. Your speculations (arguments about the alternative) on this topic should be built around the question, do you see at that moment an opportunity to save all your children, only some, or no one at all, and then choose the lesser of all evils. This is the most honest answer. Avoiding responsibility for the party that brought the country into this situation at a time when ideological Trotskyists imprisoned in the world revolution served in the SNK, General Staff, and NKVD in many key positions, for whom a hundred or two, even 100500 million, is not a question (for them it was not children, but brushwood), would mean betrayal. He acted as the father of nations, this is the secret of his popularity: most of the children were saved.

[Olgovich]

Quote: sniperino

Your speculations (arguments about the alternative) on this topic should be built around the question, do you see at that moment an opportunity to save all your children, only some, or no one at all, and then choose the lesser of all evils.

Ah, already speculation?

Do not carry nonsense - no inevitable alternative about the salvation of tens of millions at the cost of life ... millions did NOT EXIST and in sight, cut it to yourself on the forehead! And neither Stalin nor anyone else about it didn’t even stutter! Never!

These fiction of today's tebils is speculation - on the bones, in an attempt to justify the crime of the death of millions.

Where mass collectivization was carried out — there was mass starvation mortality and cannibalism — this is a millet fact.

But even in that already fatal situation of autumn-winter 1932, they did practically NOTHING, although there were ALL material resources to avoid death.

But instead, they persecuted bread. who could save people to the west right up to APRIL 1933! There are thousands of tons of oil, meat, canned goods.

At the same time, instead of a cry for help to the whole world, they SILENT, depriving people of hope

It's just FACTS ..

And yes, chop it on your forehead, collectivization has NOT led to more production and consumption of food in the country, as you are probably sure.
Consumption was much BELOW 1913 and 1928. A terrible famine with many DEATHs was in 1937, 46,4 years, and in the rest of the years, the hungry outlined for bread, read the Bolsheviks themselves in the documents.

Collectivization-to take away more, and better to feed.

Quote: sniperino

Most of the children were saved.

And they should have lived and could-EVERYTHING. Unclear?

Quote: sniperino

Their children themselves would be thrown into such a critical situation in the hope that some very smart uncle will come and ruin everything?

Where does this really strange question come from?

Once again I ask, if it didn’t come to a conclusion: do you agree that your children will die in the throes of hunger for the sake of something there (sterilization, chemicalization, figization, or whatever you or anybody else will invent)? At the same time, yes, we remember - from you it no one demandson the contrary, they tell you that you ride like cheese in butter! And try it stutter about his light "sacrifice" to the light altar
.

[sniperino]

Quote: Olgovich

HONEST answer removes ALL questions

Would they abandon their children in such a critical situation in the hope that some very smart uncle would come and ruin everything?

[atalef]

Quote: Olgovich

The USSR could and was obliged (if it takes care of its citizens) to turn to WORLD FOR HELP, as it was only 10 years ago, when the world, exhausted by the WWII, still saved MILLIONS from death.

my opinion is why he converted in 1921 and did not convert during the famine of the 30s,
Soviet power, led by the Communists, is an inhuman, cannibalistic power for which the life of a simple person has never been of any value. the only thing they were afraid of was maintaining their power.
Therefore, in 1021, while the councils were not sufficiently strengthened, and the people had not yet been etched the memory of life before the commies - they were stupidly afraid. Understanding that there is a possibility of popular rebellion and they will simply be demolished with all their giblets and their empty slogans.
In the 30s, they already realized that power is stable, punitive organs are nourished and the power vertical is stable - therefore, as always for personal purposes and, God forbid, not to show that in the country the power of workers and peasants - people die of hunger and eat to their own kind - they hid it all, spitting on millions of their own citizens and leaving them to die in millions.
Communists - this is the worst thing that could happen to Russia, their power and tyranny threw the country away in its development and potential decades ago, turning the people into an amorphous entity, believing nothing but screaming approval at all meetings.
Until there is an honest trial of all this gang and the realization of all that grief and consequences that brought the power of the Bolsheviks to Russia, there will be no progress.
Without repentance, there is no forgiveness, but here it does not smell.

[Olgovich]

Quote: atalef

Quote: Olgovich

The USSR could and was obliged (if it takes care of its citizens) to turn to WORLD FOR HELP, as it was only 10 years ago, when the world, exhausted by the WWII, still saved MILLIONS from death.

my opinion is why he converted in 1921 and did not convert during the famine of the 30s,
Soviet power, led by the Communists, is an inhuman, cannibalistic power for which the life of a simple person has never been of any value. the only thing they were afraid of was maintaining their power.
Therefore, in 1021, while the councils were not sufficiently strengthened, and the people had not yet been etched the memory of life before the commies - they were stupidly afraid. Understanding that there is a possibility of popular rebellion and they will simply be demolished with all their giblets and their empty slogans.
In the 30s, they already realized that power is stable, punitive organs are nourished and the power vertical is stable - therefore, as always for personal purposes and, God forbid, not to show that in the country the power of workers and peasants - people die of hunger and eat to their own kind - they hid it all, spitting on millions of their own citizens and leaving them to die in millions.
Communists - this is the worst thing that could happen to Russia, their power and tyranny threw the country away in its development and potential decades ago, turning the people into an amorphous entity, believing nothing but screaming approval at all meetings.
.

it's like that.

Quote: atalef

Until there is an honest trial of all this gang and the realization of all that grief and consequences that brought the power of the Bolsheviks to Russia, there will be no progress.
Without repentance, there is no forgiveness, but here it does not smell.

1.KS Russia said his word.

2. Crimes condemned at the level of official power of.

3. the main thing, I think, is to continue and further tell the truth about that time (in monographs, collections of primary sources, articles and speeches, based on documents, evidence and facts, let people judge

There’s no one to repent today — how do you imagine this?

[icelord]

That's right

[zenion]

There was no bread since the creation of the USSR, right up to 2000. And since 2000 there is always bread and circuses. And the people at the time of the USSR, ate everything with cakes and other non-bread products. They endured as much as they could. Now they can choose the bread ruler and eat only bread. By the way, in the days of the USSR, cakes were sold in galoshes, that is, to galoshes in the load they gave thorites for a quarter of the price of galoshes. People were indignant, they wanted cakes in condoms. Rubber at home will always fit, you can carry water.

[Mavrikiy]

In the case, right, he did not know the words democracy and grant

B. Urlanis / 1974 / 2,7

the very first, everyone danced from him for the hillocks and ours. Ours after 1990 is corrupt scum, doctors became for the dirt poured on the USSR.

Alexander Petrovich Babenyshev
(Sergey Maksudov)
Citizenship (citizenship) USSR USA
Occupation geologist, historian, sociologist, demographer, human rights activist, publicist

Normal liberal rubbish.

This tragedy does not and cannot have internationally established signs of genocide and should not be the subject of contemporary political speculation.

Shpakovsky, this is about you.

[apro]

Well ... it’s understandable that everyone died with a gododuha. And everything’s not enough in red. All the bread was taken and let's fatten. I believe it myself.
What happened to the author during that period of time? What led to such consequences?

[Mavrikiy]

strongly condemn the regime that neglected the lives of people in order to achieve economic and political goals, and declare the unacceptability of any attempts to revive the states that were formerly part of the USSR, totalitarian regimes that neglect the rights and lives of their citizens.

They are from a great mind. It happens. Out of habit, they always see loot or sedition. The question was about the physical existence of the people, the bastards of democracy (France, England and the USA ) staged genocide on our land, for it was they who set Hitler on us

[Alekseev]

Quote: Mavrikiy

They are from a great mind.

You apparently think your mind is even bigger.
As you know, when it comes to crimes of power, and famine in the USSR is an undoubted crime, although they didn’t specifically organize it (it’s true, famine is a logical consequence of the wrong policy, but is it easier from that), a slip, they say, came out, a group of comrades, about which the author wrote in the epigraph, begins to mumble unprovenly about the enemies of the motherland, grant-eaters, etc. crap. There are enemies and grant-eaters, but not in this case, and the defenders of all crimes themselves are worse than enemies.
И there is no way to answer “who is stupid because of his stupidity, so that you don’t become like him”, because they do not recognize the facts and do not give counter-arguments when it comes to the crimes of Lenin and his Jews, the leader of the peoples and his people's commissars. Only squeal and moaning. Now, if the apologists of the dictatorship of the proletariat would have their hungry children ask for bread, and they couldn’t get anywhere, then they could ... But give an asshole, not give an assault - it is tantamount to abusing the memory of millions of our compatriots who died innocently. Somewhat reassuring is only the fact that the bulk of those who committed the outrages in the 30s were subsequently shot, but this is little comfort.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Alekseev

But it’s necessary to give a shit, not to give a shit - tantamount to abusing the memory of millions innocently, stupidly dead our compatriots.

I categorically support our compatriots who innocently perished in a terrible, martyrdom deserve our eternal and bright memory of them.

For-"Nobody is forgotten and Nothing is forgotten"

Denying these millions of victims, even in this, the only thing we can do for them, dancing on their bones and grief, denying them even the right to exist and in memory, simply nonhumans without conscience and fear.

Monument to the victims of hunger in the village of Yasenskaya, Russia.

The monument stands exactly at the place where in 1933 the victims of starvation were buried. There was a pit 15 by 15 m in size. The bodies were brought in on a supply every day and simply sprinkled with lime.

“I go into the house, and my grandfather is lying, chubby from hunger. My mother’s grandfather almost lived to 100 years old. Her mother was only 35 years old and had five children. Mom alone survived, and four were chubby, rats eared eyes. Mom died by morning, ”says Lyubov Mikhailova.

One day, the mother of Lyubov Mikhailova lost all her relatives.
In 1933, more than 1 thousand people died of starvation in Yasenskaya. As eyewitnesses say, about 200 yards in which large families lived simply emptied. The surnames of many cannot be restored now - 82 years have passed. But the search work in the village continues.
"Kuban 24"

[icelord]

But who told you that? Envy of those who have achieved more, a sign of powerlessness

[Talgarets]

There is an alternative point of view:

[Mavrikiy]

S. V. Kosioru and members of the Politburo of the Central Committee of the Communist Party (b) of Ukraine:
“We consider the situation with grain procurements in Ukraine alarming. Based on the data available in the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks (b), workers in Ukraine spontaneously focus on the failure to fulfill the plan for 70–80 million pounds. We consider such a prospect absolutely unacceptable and intolerant. We consider it a shame that Ukraine this year, with a higher level of collectivization and more state farms, prepared 1 million poods on January 20 of this year. less than last year. Who is to blame: the highest level of collectivization or the lowest level of management of the procurement business?

Dont clear? Stanislav Vikentievich decided not to bother, but together with the Central Committee of the Communist Party (Bolsheviks) of Ukraine to do "business": VIKI to help:

February 26, 1939 he was sentenced to death. The sentence is executed on the same day.
After the death of Stalin, Kosior was rehabilitated by the Soviet government on March 14, 1956.
On January 13, 2010, the Kiev Court of Appeal recognized Kosior as one of the organizers of the “genocide in Ukraine in 1932-1933”

[Humpty]

Talgarets. The article that was sent to you is essentially biased towards "organized hunger", but even here there is something to think about, for example, how the hungry people repeatedly made transitions hundreds of kilometers. Consider the fact that they moved from areas rich in natural sources of food, to where they lived from hand to mouth.

[vladcub]

Let’s already say that the Russians were fat, and in Ukraine 16 million died at least

[Free wind]

I am a supporter of the USSR. but there was a famine, I don’t know much about 30. but in 21 years there was a famine in the Volga region. Maybe someone remembers there was even such a saying: are you from the starving Volga region? The male population was knocked out, the Civil War was still burning, the area passed from hand to hand many times. In the villages there were women and children. The famine was such that they asked for help from foreigners. Suppose M Gorky, with the knowledge of the government, wrote a letter asking for help. The assistance was provided by the American ARA, the trade unions of America, Nansen collected assistance. English Union of Workers. From America mainly came egg powder and cornmeal. They didn’t make a secret from this.

[cost]

Regarding the scale of the famine, there is an official assessment prepared by the State Duma of the Russian Federation in the official statement issued on April 2, 2008, "In memory of the victims of famine in the 30s on the territory of the USSR." According to the conclusion of the commission under the State Duma of the Russian Federation, on the territory of the Volga region, the Central Black Earth region, the North Caucasus, the Urals, Crimea, part of Western Siberia, Kazakhstan, Ukraine and Belarus, "from hunger and diseases associated with malnutrition" in 1932-1933 died about 7 million people.

link - Databank "Normative legal acts of the Federal Assembly of the Russian Federation"
RESOLUTION of the State Duma of the Federal Assembly of the Russian Federation of 02.04.2008 N 262-5 DG
"ON THE STATEMENT OF THE STATE DUMA OF THE FEDERAL ASSEMBLY OF THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION" IN MEMORY OF THE VICTIMS OF THE HUNGER OF THE 30TH YEARS ON THE TERRITORY OF THE USSR "
https://duma.consultant.ru/page.aspx?955838

[Free wind]

I wrote about the years 19-22, starving the Volga, from those years, because I know about it firsthand. I don’t know much about the hunger of the thirties. My grandfather was called up in 1930, he served in the border troops.

[Normal ok]

Interestingly, I gave evidence on the subject. But my comment moderated? What is the truth about brother?

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Rich

Regarding the scale of the famine, there is an official assessment prepared by the State Duma of the Russian Federation in the official statement issued on April 2, 2008, "In memory of the victims of famine in the 30s on the territory of the USSR."

Interestingly, and the State Duma can be trusted, or what?

[Sling cutter]

Quote: tihonmarine

Interestingly, and the State Duma can be trusted, or what?

there is no reason.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Stroporez

there is no reason.

They will sing about whatever you want, even "about the lights that do not shine."

[Okolotochny]

Interestingly, and the State Duma can be trusted, or what?

there is no reason.

Zyuganov’s faction (43 seats), too.

[atalef]

Quote: Rich

on the territory of the Volga region, the Central Black Earth region, the North Caucasus, the Urals, Crimea, parts of Western Siberia, Kazakhstan, Ukraine and Belarus "from hunger and diseases associated with malnutrition" in 1932-1933 killed about 7 million people.

I remember as a child we had a neighbor from Alma-Ata, so she told me not once or twice. that as a child, she saw dozens of people starving to death on the streets, it wasn’t strange for me, I wasn’t at all, I was a teenager and somehow didn’t really understand what it was about.
She told this with such horror in her eyes, that I remembered clearly.

[depressant]

Let me join in, Free wind. The famine was. Since childhood, I heard these stories from my grandmother and great-grandmother on the part of my mother, the Kuban villages. We swelled from hunger, ate a quinoa (I know from their stories about that quinoa). Fierce was hunger. They even had to flee to Azerbaijan. For some reason there was no famine there. The older generation of the school friend’s family fled to Abkhazia, and there it took root, and my girlfriend, in fact a Russian, already had a Georgian surname. My seniors then returned to the Kuban, became single-handed and lived very well - both before the war and after (a stone house, a metal roof, 75 hundredths of the Kuban chernozem, a garden, countless chickens, geese, turkeys, a cow, a calf, a pig) until Khrushchev dispersed the one-on-one. Grandma commissars hated. My parents idolized Stalin ...
Famine in those days was almost the entire planet. For various reasons, but it was - the era was so inhuman. Either the state survives due to the atrocious attitude towards its people, or it collapses. It survives by shedding the surplus population as an old shell. I'm more worried about something else. As if now something like this would not happen again.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: depressant

Let me join in, Free wind. The famine was. Since childhood, I heard these stories from my grandmother and great-grandmother on the part of my mother, the Kuban villages.

Of course there is no smoke without fire. My mother-in-law from the village of Bryukhovetskaya, although she was a girl, said that she was hungry, they ate corn, but not so much that they died. Well, if there is hunger in the Kuban, what can we say about the non-chernozem of the Smolensk, Bryansk, Kaluga regions, where there was no famine, and the land there was not the same as in Ukraine and the Kuban, and they smelled of horse and plow.

[vladcub]

Deputy, I'm sorry to say this. You repeat the words of my mother (WWII participant): if only there was no hunger.

[3x3zsave]

The name of the user "depressant" is Lyudmila Grigorievna.

[vladcub]

Thank you for introducing

[3x3zsave]

It's my pleasure. I am a "communicator" in life.

[hohol95]

They even had to flee to Azerbaijan. For some reason there was no famine there.

According to parents in the Azerbaijan Soviet Union, they began to starve after the war, a year of the 50s. Punished not to carry bread in sight. And the rally was received by the grandfather himself - the military technician of the airfield!

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Free Wind

Help provided by American ARA

The bacon is solid.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Mordvin 3

The bacon is solid.

Both are on, minuses were numb. And who was interested in the activities of the ARA, and Wolson with Hubert?

[Olgovich]

Quote: Free Wind

I am a supporter of the USSR. but hunger was about 30 g. I do not know much. but in 21 years there was a famine in the Volga region.

I can’t believe it. that you can live in southern Russia, be interested in its history and not know its worst tragedy in peacetime

Quote: Free Wind

awes changed hands many times. In the villages there were women and children. The famine was such that they asked for help from foreigners. Suppose M Gorky, with the knowledge of the government, wrote a letter asking for help. The assistance was provided by the American ARA, the trade unions of America, Nansen collected assistance. English Union of Workers. From America mainly came egg powder and cornmeal. From this did not make a secret.

And from a more terrible catastrophe, they made a secret and did not even announce it, but after all, help from abroad in 32-33 g, as in 1921-22, could also save millions.

But the grief of the leaders would be immediately asked, how could you, with such a disaster, drive .... for export millions of tons of grain, thousands of tons of meat, ham, canned food, etc.?

[Looking for]

where is the famine of 21 years. which was the result of devastation and the Civil War?

[ser56]

Quote: Seeker

was the result. devastation and

devastation is a consequence of war communism ...

[nikvic46]

The fact that the late years 1975-1986 are cited suggests that much of this is a lie. Wikipedia must be handled carefully. This is a collection of opinions, and not always correct. Russia was pursued by famine before. It was not for nothing that peasant associations appeared. was taken as a basis in the creation of collective farms. And what is meant by hunger? Lack of bread, or people falling in the street? We will continue to deal with similar things. I read the article "Is humanity getting dumber?" To some extent, yes. High technologies take away many worries from a person. He does not need to go to the reading library, subscribe to newspapers, magazines. In live communication, people share experience. Not a picture, but live. But these are all thoughts in haste. Health to all.

[Mavrikiy]

participant in Russian-British projects of the IRI RAS and MVSESEN, (“Peasant revolution in Russia. 1902-1922”, “Soviet village through the eyes of the Cheka-OGPU-NKVD. 1918-1939.”, “The tragedy of the Soviet village: collectivization and dispossession. 1927-1939. ”). In 1992-2008, he was a laureate of grants from the foundations of Ford, Soros, RHF and others for his work on the agrarian history of Russia, the Volga region and Ukraine in the first third of the XNUMXth century.

Probably V.V. Kondrashin really wanted to eat, just pecked from the hand of Soros.

[depressant]

Colleague Mavrikiy, apparently, Kondrashin did not know that there was famine in tsarist Russia. But he took up the "Soviet" hunger as bringing him personal satiety. Everything is clear with him. But the policy of Nicholas II as an irresistible circumstance for an ordinary person impresses me much more.
Just the facts.
The hungry years in tsarist Russia of the 20th century.
1901 - 1902 ...... 49 provinces
1905 - 1908 ....... 29 provinces
1911 - 1912 ........ 60 provinces, this is 14,9% of the population, 30 million people were on the verge of death.
During the period 1901 - 1912, about 8 million people died of hunger. The problem was so burning that the censors replaced the word "hunger" with the word "crop failure". It's like we have now - "negative economic growth". Famine was a regular and widespread phenomenon in tsarist Russia. By exporting grain abroad. Annually - 30% of the harvest! Minister Vyshnegradskiy:
"We'll be undernourished, but we'll take it out!"
The hunger was such that they finally began to issue something called a "hungry loan" - 1 pood of flour per adult and 0 poods per child per month. But the loan could not be received by "parasites" aged 5 to 18, as well as 55 million farm laborers, that is, landless. Widows and orphans had to feed the rural society from ... surplus!
Due to the climate catastrophe, the famine of 1911-1912 was especially terrible. But at the same time, Tsar Nicholas II in one fell swoop reduced the possibilities of zemstvos in the fight against hunger to almost zero, banned the help of the Red Cross, etc. Moreover, he issued a decree, which historians call unique - "On the preparation of bread from bard and straw flour as one that can replace the use of ordinary rye bread."
Marie Antoinette advised at least eating cakes. M-yes ... And then some are surprised at the further course of history. That's what the chairman of the Pirogovsky society D.N. Zhbankov:
"Diseases and cases of starvation, ruin and general begging, mutilation of the moral image - robbery, arson, trafficking in children and oneself, suicide and complete physical and spiritual prostration - all this bring crop failures in Russia."
If only crop failures ...
Only in 1911 did the tsar come to the conclusion that it was necessary not to export 30% of the grain, but, on the contrary, to import it. But it was too late. The tsar got his irresistible circumstance - a counter "negative growth" of confidence on the part of the population.

[Olgovich]

Quote: depressant

Colleague Mavrikiy, apparently, Kondrashin did not realize that there was famine in tsarist Russia. But he took up the "Soviet" hunger as bringing him personal satiety.

You read his work (they are available)?
No? NO!

What then ... judge?

Quote: depressant

Between 1901 and 1912, approximately 8 million people died of starvation.

Well do not carry this ignorant, without reference, long-exposed bullshit!.

Even No one Soviet historian. a demographer, politician, I didn’t write like that, it was a shame!

And yes, so that there is no "lie" about the famine of 32-33, please show correct SOVIET OFFICIAL FIGURES of victims and causes of hunger - from Soviet newspapers, monographs, studies, reports at Congresses of the All-Union Communist Party of Belarus, plenums of the Central Committee, Congresses of Soviets, statements by government members, parties on radio, television, etc.-you are welcome!

Imagine the same!

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Olgovich

Well, do not carry this ignorant, without links, long-exposed nonsense !.

You got it already. Take it:

[ser56]

Quote: Mordvin 3

Take it:

do not share - where is the column of starvation? Figures by years do not differ much ...

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: ser56

do not share - where is the column of starvation?

It's all right?

[ser56]

Quote: Mordvin 3

It's all right?

what will go - you have the usual statistics on demographics - what’s the point? Well, people were dying - small children are more, the difference in years is small ...

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: ser56

what will go - you have the usual statistics on demographics - what’s the point? Well, people were dying - small children are more, the difference in years is small ...

You asked for a column of the dead, I gave it to you.

[Vladimir_2U]

Good day, could you give a link to the tablets, otherwise it is impossible to find from the picture, to me))), but I got to taste something to compare.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Could you give a link to the plates, otherwise it is impossible to find from the picture, to me))

This is at Novoselsky. "Mortality and Life Expectancy in Russia".
http://www.demoscope.ru/weekly/knigi/novoselskij/novoselskij_1916.pdf

[Vladimir_2U]

Thank you, it will be more than oligchelike poke.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Mordvin 3

You got it already. Take it:

1. Poke, Vovochka, you will be to your wife.

2. Where are the dead from starvation?

[Sling cutter]

Quote: depressant

But the policy of Nicholas II as an irresistible circumstance for an ordinary person is much more impressive to me.

Colleague, you are certainly right, because it was not for nothing that they gave birth to children with a margin, you knew exactly 8 you will give birth, 4 will remain, and maybe 2, hence the cynical saying "God gave, God took." - this is just about children.
But to discuss Shpakovsky stuffing or to argue with Altgovich is pointless.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Mavrikiy

Probably V.V. Kondrashin really wanted to eat, just pecked from the hand of Soros.

This is bad, or not?

[Mavrikiy]

Quote: mordvin xnumx

Quote: Mavrikiy

Probably V.V. Kondrashin really wanted to eat, just pecked from the hand of Soros.

This is bad, or not?

It's disgusting. Pour mud over your country for Amer, Japanese, English, Ukrainian, Kazakh, German, Italian, Chinese, Datsky, Swedish, French money. He has already gained three walls.

In 2015, he was a visiting professor at Tohoku University (Japan) (a Russian-Japanese project with Tokyo University “Modern Russian and Japanese researchers of the history of the Soviet peasantry of the 1930th century”, international projects with the University of Melbourne and Nazarbayev University on the topics “World Famine of the 1932th Century”, “ Famine in Kazakhstan in the early 1933s ”, Russian-Ukrainian projects dedicated to the famine of XNUMX-XNUMX in the USSR and the peasant rebel movement in Russia and Ukraine during the Civil War

Here the Japanese are very ill, without the history of the Soviet peasantry of the XNUMXth century.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Mavrikiy

It's disgusting

Well, that’s how our historical author, Shpakovsky, doesn’t think so. He grants Soros ...

[ser56]

Quote: Mordvin 3

He grants Soros.

are you sure? Is there a link to the source?

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: ser56

Is there a link to the source?

Yes, Vyacheslav Olegovich himself wrote that he received a grant from Soros.

[icelord]

Well, but I think it will be difficult to understand.

[Han Tengri]

Quote: nikvic46

The fact that the late years of 1975-1986 are cited suggests that much of this is a lie.

You are partly right, but that’s not entirely a lie. It is rather a manipulation of real facts, for the sake of political conjuncture.
Here is what, for example, Doctor of Historical Sciences Zima V.F. (Winter V.F.Golod in the USSR 1946-1947: origin and consequences.) In the lead to his research:

The world's first “socialist" state, destroying
previous economic ties failed to create new
and parasitized on the exploitation of inherited
human and natural resources. Being in the diplomatic
isolation aggressive Soviet regime forced
construction of a military-industrial complex. To this end
funds and people were taken from the village. In case of war
at the cost of the lives of millions of their citizens unprecedented
formerly food and industrial stocks
goods. They were regularly updated and, as we learn later,
never, even during the years of World War II,
which was part of World War II, were not used
by appointment.
In such circumstances, the main cause of hunger
there were no weather conditions, but the dictates of the ruling elite.
It is difficult to get rid of the idea that hunger was deliberately arranged.
The bread ration was a decisive factor in the implementation
the ambitious designs of the Soviet leaders. Poverty and
by hunger the people were turned into a slaughtered mass of people.
Personalities destroyed and isolated

Is it immediately clear that the doctor's "research" will be absolutely impartial and strictly scientific?

[icelord]

Yes, no doubt he is right

[Octopus]

Quote: nikvic46

The fact that the late years of 1975-1986 are cited suggests that much of this is false.

Excuse me, what years do you need? 30th, Pravda newspaper?

[Krasnodar]

Vyacheslav Olegovich, good morning!
As I understand it, the reasons for the famine were the purchase of equipment abroad in exchange for wheat and the provision of bread to industrial centers and construction megaprojects?

[cost]

good morning albert
Not everything is so simple. I personally don’t understand the claims that the cause of the famine was the export of grain, and that in the second half of 1932 and in the first half of 1933 it grew significantly. Is it so ? Grain harvesting in 1932/33 amounted to 18.5 million tons. And in 1931 there were 22.8 million tons. In 1934, 22.7 million tons of steel. But what is grain export by years? 1930 - 4.7 million tons; 1931 - 5.1 million tons; 1932 - 1.7 million tons; 1933 - 1.6 million tons; 1934 - 0.7 million tons; 1935 - 1.5 million tons. As you can see, there was no increase in grain exports in 1932 and 1333, on the contrary there was a sharp decline in exports. Moreover, from 01.01.1933/01.04.1933/XNUMX, exports fell to a minimum, and from XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX, exports were completely stopped.

[Krasnodar]

Good morning, Dmitriy!
Then what is the cause of the famine? Everything went to the construction site of the century?

[cost]

Purely my opinion, it's all about the weather, and industrialization
In the Volga region, there was intense heat, which led to drought. Similarly in Kazakhstan and in the eastern part of the North Caucasus. The intense heat at 35 degrees, with virtually no rain, stood for two months: July and August. And in early August, the dry winds exacerbated the situation in the Volga region and in Kazakhstan. In some areas of these regions, the crop was completely destroyed.
Another reason in my opinion was that in the early 30s several million people, mostly young men, moved from the village to the city. Industrialization was successfully underway in the USSR. Since the city needed additional working hands, several tens of millions of people.
Another reason for the famine was that they violated crop rotation rules. Too much since the end of the 20s began to sow land and leave little for arable land.

[Krasnodar]

That is, the crop failure and something seized the state for the needs of cities, as a result of which there was a famine in the villages?

[cost]

No. The number of people cultivating the land sharply decreased - they left for the city, plus a sharp increase in the area of ​​land sown by collective farms, to the detriment of arable land - the collective farms sowed not between borders but fields, It was 1931 and 1932 that became the peak in the number of collective farms formed. Hence the sowing quality And all this multiplied by the weather. And, of course, the "quiet sabotage" of the new collective farmers - they used to work for themselves from the heart, for the collective farm - as needed. And naturally associated with collectivization, a sharp reduction in the number of cattle in the country.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Rich

And of course, the "quiet sabotage" of the new collective farmers - they used to work for themselves from the heart, for the collective farm - as needed.

Especially in prosperous agricultural areas of the country.

[Krasnodar]

Quote: Rich

No. The number of people cultivating the land sharply decreased - they left for the city, plus a sharp increase in the area of ​​land sown by collective farms, to the detriment of arable land - the collective farms sowed not between borders but fields, It was 1931 and 1932 that became the peak in the number of collective farms formed. Hence the sowing quality And all this multiplied by the weather. And, of course, the "quiet sabotage" of the new collective farmers - they used to work for themselves from the heart, for the collective farm - as needed. And naturally associated with collectivization, a sharp reduction in the number of cattle in the country.

Now I understand, thanks!

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Rich

No.

Rich, and here I can’t disagree with you!

Quote: Rich

sharp reduction in the number of cattle in the country.

What kind of cattle? - Volov !!! The only force (except for the tractor, which at that time was very small) is able to plow black soil. They didn’t plow the horse with black horse! Only oxen. An ox is a castrated bull.
As I said, and I agree with you, there were many reasons for the famine. He was inevitable in any power!
The authorities at that time did not have the ability to transfer large quantities of food in the shortest possible time, with all its desire.

[vladcub]

Like this

[hohol95]

It turns out that if there is no grain - death. More than the peasantry did not have anything? Bread and grain were staple foods. And without grain, did it immediately collapse?
It turns out that potatoes and other vegetables could not save the situation?
Or were they not actually grown for personal use?
Like in the 90s on 6 acres ...

[cost]

What kind of potato, Alexey? you won’t put much in the yard. They didn’t enter the collective farm empty-handed, but with their property, cattle and allotments of land.

[hohol95]

It turns out that before collectivization (and before the revolution) everything was sown and planted not near the house, but in a clean field. And next to the house there were only quinoa, nettle and burdock growing ...

[cost]

Why only quinoa, nettle and burdock grew? Berry bushes, flowers, trees. But you won’t be fed up with them. Each owner had root for root crops. And in a clean field on its boundaries only grain. It was from these boundary plots that the collective farms made common collective farm fields.

[hohol95]

From your words, a picture is drawn anyway, as in Ireland (the main product is potatoes) - there is no main product - hunger and death. And in Russia, the main product is cereals! And no vegetables could replace his absence. I won’t remember about meat. When joining the collective farms, how many cattle they themselves cut ...

[cost]

I do not understand what you "drew from my words"? You asked where I grew up, how the peasant explained it to you.

[hohol95]

I don’t know what you "drew from my words"?

But isn't that so. No grain - no life. Vegetable growing in large areas have not yet been engaged. Cattle also demanded grain.
No grain - no bread - no meat - hunger ...
They ate little fish. It was tight with vegetables.
A friend of mine told me that after the war his mother’s family survived thanks to one of his younger brothers — he had been fishing for days on end. That fish welding helped!

[cost]

But isn't that so.

Like so

[Undecim]

Each owner had root for root crops.
Dmitry, the threshing floor is not a garden, it is a current on which bread was threshed and stored.

[cost]

Cereals were threshed by chains, dried, and stored in sheepskins and covered currents, and mills were mainly transported to mills, and peas were threshed on threshing bins, and even then in late July and early September, carrots and beetroots grew potato. Again I speak only about my locality

[Undecim]

Not chains - flails. In order to thresh grain with a flail, you need a solid, even, clean area - current. It was prepared for a long time and kept for years, they never planted anything on the current. To grind bread, harmon was also used - a stone gear roller. This also requires current. Threshed bread was stored in barns, clowns, stodolas - they were called differently in different places. The current could be indoor. The current itself, storage and drying rooms - all this is the barn. One of these rooms - a barn or a rig - served for drying sheaves before threshing. The difference between Riga and the barn is in the design of the drying oven.
The manual threshing in the end under the pressure of mechanization and combines disappeared, but this did not happen at once.
Therefore, threshing floors were not used as vegetable gardens in any locality.

[Pane Kohanku]

threshing floor is not a vegetable garden <.......> Not in chains - in flails

Reminded:
Once in Tuileries, he (Bonaparte) enthusiastically met Academician Amelon:
“I am pleased to see you, Ansillon.”
- Sorry, I'm not Ansillon - Amelon.
“Yes, yes, Amelon!” I know you well. You continued the Roman history of Lebon, worthy of general attention.
“Not Lebon — Lebo, Mr. Consul.”
“Lebo, I said so.” And you extended his chronicle until the fall of Constantinople under the blows of the Arabians.
- Not the Arabians - the Turk.
- That's right, Amelon! I meant the Turk ... (V.S. Pikul, "To Each His Own").
I ask you not to be offended with Dmitry, I read with pleasure your (both) comments with the arrangement of concepts.

[hohol95]

Cancer is not fish
Commission of the French Academy of Sciences worked on the compilation of an encyclopedic dictionary. Cuvier entered the hall where the meeting was taking place.
“Glad to see you, Mr. Cuvier,” said one of forty members of the commission. - We just managed to popularly explain a difficult word. We found the definition short and precise, here it is: "Cancer is a small red fish that walks backwards." But still, we would like to hear your authoritative opinion.
“Great, gentlemen,” Cuvier said. “However, let me make a small remark.” The fact is that cancer is not fish, it is not red and does not go backwards. Other than all this, your definition is excellent.

[hohol95]

Well, that is not a GOAT - button accordion ...

[Pane Kohanku]

Well, that is not a GOAT - button accordion ...

this is a dissertation on animal husbandry!

[hohol95]

Morning. Cowshed. A drunken milkmaid enters the zyuzy. Cow:
“Well, have you done it again?”
- Mmmmuuuuuuuh ...
- Come on, hold on to the udder, and I jump ...

I advise the cartoon "Today in our city ..."!
On the decay of collective farms in the USSR.

[3x3zsave]

I am sorry for the linguistic question. Do I remember correctly that "Stodola" (Ukrainian.) Is a barn?

[Undecim]

Shed for storing sheaves.

[3x3zsave]

Powerful building! On the barn does not pull.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: hohol95

It turns out that before collectivization (and before the revolution) everything was sown and planted not near the house, but in a clean field.

And read at least Makarenko's "Pedagogical Poem", it is well described there what was sown and planted and how.

[hohol95]

I will definitely take your advice

[hohol95]

The "Ryazan miracle" in 1959, although it did not lead to mass starvation, but the Ryazan region deprived almost all of the livestock.
But how many years have already been running ...

[tihonmarine]

Quote: hohol95

The Ryazan Miracle in 1959

The first secretary of the Ryazan regional committee A.N. Larionov made an ambitious statement, promising to triple state procurement of meat in the region in one year. The promises, despite their unreality, were approved by the regional party conference, and on January 9, 1959, on the urgent recommendation of Khrushchev and contrary to the opinion of the Agricultural Department of the CPSU Central Committee, were published in Pravda. Several other areas answered the “challenge”. The Ryazan region had not yet had time to start implementing its grandiose program, as awards fell on it. In February 1959, she received the Order of Lenin. Larionov in December of that year became the Hero of Socialist Labor. Under Nikitka, this was not the case, I could tell how my classmate received the Order of Lenin for high milk yields. But this is another question.

[Pane Kohanku]

Larionov in December of that year became the Hero of Socialist Labor.

Vlad, let me add? as far as I remember, Larionov committed suicide after disclosing the deception ...

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Pane Kohanku

Larionov after the disclosure of deception committed suicide ...

I don't mind such people. And even the chairmen of collective farms worked, sent from the cities a set of "ten-thousanders", in agriculture, not a belmes, but how to make a career and make money, they could do it. autumn and in winter for his 16 gram ration of blackies.

[Pane Kohanku]

and how to make a career and make tsatskis, they could

This, I think, is "normal" if non-professionals from any party are engaged in business. But at one time a former combine operator even rose through the party line to the secretary general?

[hohol95]

Only awards did not deprive him ...

[Pane Kohanku]

Only awards did not deprive him ...

"family matters", Alexey. Apparently, they reasoned that "the dead have no shame" ... By the way, it’s interesting, what can the esteemed Konstantin - Sea Cat tell about him? He probably knows about those times in Ryazan!

[hohol95]

So there was a documentary about the Ryazan miracle. Our Lipetsk region also suffered from it. Ryazan residents bought livestock from private owners in all neighboring regions. Locals wrote angry letters to Moscow about the impossibility because of this to fulfill the plan for the purchase of meat from the population! And they were answered - EVERYTHING is possible with Ryazan ... And if you do not fulfill the plan, head off your shoulders ...

[Pane Kohanku]

And they were answered - Ryazan EVERYTHING is possible ... And if you don’t fulfill the plan, you’ll be off your head ...

yeah ... one "thought up", and off we go ...

[hohol95]

Yes sir. Then they learned to "multiply" cotton in papers. And in hospitals cotton wool and gauze disappeared ...
Or wild saigas covered the shortage of lamb ...
"To start the investigation" -
The first movie. "Version"

The investigator for particularly important cases, Stasenko, gets into the development of a case about the loss of a large sum of money and an employee of the collective farm "Progress" Petr Tsar'kov. The investigation showed that clandestine production of counterfeit fruit juices flourished on the collective farm and bulk fictitious operations were carried out while harvesting cattle. Tsar'kov was only a link in the chain of fraud. When trying to hide the theft between fraudsters, a quarrel arose, which ended in the death of Tsarkov.

"Profession - investigator" -

The plot was written based on a criminal case of embezzlement on an especially large scale at the Kolomna Combine of the Local Industry Directorate of the Moscow Region and the Kazbek zagotbaz of the Dagestan consumer union. The crime was uncovered thanks to the exceptional talent and great professional skills of the senior investigator for particularly important cases of the Investigation Department of the Main Investigation Department of the USSR Ministry of Internal Affairs, police colonel Pavel Vasilyevich Lukashev. From his inception, I also worked in his investigative team from the very beginning of the investigation. The preliminary investigation was conducted in 1978–79. In the case, 20 people were brought to justice, including the heads of the plant and base Muratova, Jalilov, and others.

[Pane Kohanku]

Then they learned to "multiply" cotton in papers.

and for this they killed the Aral and Aral!

[hohol95]

With the Aral Sea (lake) is not so simple. At the bottom that was discovered, ancient settlements were found and it turns out that the Aral has either become the largest, or has become smaller.

[Pane Kohanku]

At the bottom that was discovered, ancient settlements were found and it turns out that the Aral has either become the largest, or has become smaller.

I didn't know, honestly! The climate can "dance", of course. But is it possible to restore how it was?

[hohol95]

On the shallow bottom of the Aral Sea, the remains of two settlements and mausoleums were found. The Kerdery Mausoleum dates from the 20th – XNUMXth centuries. For a long time it was at a depth of about XNUMX m. The remains of a XNUMXth-century settlement of Aral-Asar were also discovered.

This is not even known to pundits ...
Looking for ways. Yes, where to get so much water ...

[Pane Kohanku]

Looking for ways. Yes, where to get so much water ...

and the "turn of the Siberian rivers" - not for this "projected"?

[hohol95]

Fortunately, they have already forgotten about this ...
An article about hunger, and you and I ...
It’s good that we didn’t really have to starve.
In the 90s already "doshirak" was sold ... And the parents took a gardener in 6 acres. But the salary was delayed. And the scholarship at the technical school paid me on time ...

[icelord]

The sea itself died

[3x3zsave]

Well, that's how Uncle Kostya is a Muscovite!

[Pane Kohanku]

Well, that's how Uncle Kostya is a Muscovite!

God alone, he has friends who can tell you about it.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Rich

What kind of potato, Alexey? you won’t put much in the yard. They didn’t enter the collective farm empty-handed, but with their property, cattle and allotments of land.

Manor estates were left, even in the non-chernozem strip of Russia, 30 acres, and in other regions, 50 acres. We had a plot of 15 acres, and then there were enough potatoes for 6 people both in drought and in rains. I'm not talking about cabbage, rutabaga and turnips. Yes, it was necessary to work, especially in drought and rains ..

[hohol95]

Manor estates were left, even in the non-chernozem strip of Russia, 30 acres, and in other regions, 50 acres. We had a plot of 15 acres, and then there were enough potatoes for 6 people both in drought and in rains. I'm not talking about cabbage, rutabaga and turnips. Yes, it was necessary to work, especially in drought and rains ..

So nobody worked? Or took everything for the hungry cities?
So understand why people were starving ... Either there were gardens or there were none. A dark story ...
I heard fables that in Ethiopia during the famine our soldiers shot game and fished, but the Ethiopians recognized only their own dead cows and did not eat game with fish. From that and Merly ...

[Okolotochny]

Or took everything for the hungry cities?

There were plans for grain procurement. Failure to fulfill these plans - the settlements were blocked by the NKVD troops, the supply of food was stopped, as a result of the imposition of subjective factors on the crop failure. This happened in the Kuban, in the Rostov region. Failures of these plans (even due to weather factors) were attributed to the opposition of "kulak elements". My family also fell under this "skating rink".

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: tihonmarine

Yes, it was necessary to work, especially in drought and rains ..

You would have watched me bother with the garden. There is no water, to the well - 500 meters, everything is uphill. Carried like a donkey two barrels on a cart.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Rich

What kind of potato, Alexey? you won’t put much in the yard. They didn’t enter the collective farm empty-handed, but with their property, cattle and allotments of land.

Rich, do not tell. No one took back home gardens to the collective farm. And they planted potatoes as much as the family would have had before the new harvest.
My grandfather, about whom I spoke here, had 60 acres near the house, he was the sole individual, and only under Khrushchev they took 20 acres, leaving 40. And from these acres of potatoes, fodder beets, etc. there were enough for himself and pigs, which he cut 2 a year.

[Free wind]

First of all, the potato was not very born, it could dry completely, no one thought to water it, it was almost impossible at that time. There were practically no varieties; one could say a wild game. Other crops also require moisture. But some cases cause misunderstanding, melons and gourds hardly required pumpkins,. watermelons, melons grew perfectly just in these areas of hunger, fish along the Don, Kuban, pearl as abnormal, along the Volga fish came into Kama. What stopped catching her? Kostya, this one, with mullets of mullet, where did he go? On the Black Sea, God forgive me and all sorts of defenders and dolphins hollowed. Sometimes you think, it seems artificially created. Okay, to hell with him it’s hard to keep fish on the don. Damn in the Volga Baskunchak, how much 20 km from the Volga. It’s full of salt, take the fish wherever you want.

[Mavrikiy]

Quote: hohol95

It turns out that if there is no grain - death. More than the peasantry did not have anything? Bread and grain were staple foods. And without grain, did it immediately collapse?
It turns out that potatoes and other vegetables could not save the situation?
Or were they not actually grown for personal use?

So that's the point. Gardens were always and everywhere. The heat burned everything. Famine was everywhere in Eastern Europe.

rich (dmitry) What kind of potato, Alexey? you won’t put much in the yard.

Rich grows potatoes on trees.

[Han Tengri]

Quote: Rich

Purely my opinion, it's all about the weather, and industrialization
In the Volga region, there was intense heat, which led to drought.

+ rust epidemic. + presumably the malaria epidemic in Ukraine in the summer of 1933.

[Undecim]

Too much since the end of the 20s began to sow land and leave little for arable land.
Dmyri, you are abundantly using words from agricultural circulation, but you do not understand their meaning, as a result of which the meaning of your comments is lost.
Arable land - this is the land on which they sow, cultivated. Obviously, you confuse arable land with that part of it (arable land), which is called steam — a crop rotation field that is not occupied by crops during the entire growing season.

[Undecim]

Minute, as I understand it, local couch farmers, firmly convinced that cottage cheese is extracted from dumplings.

[Free wind]

From dumplings, they generally get jam; cottage cheese is growing on cheesecakes. But it’s hard to pick out raisins from buns, quite small.

[Okolotochny]

Yes, do not pay attention.

[Serg65]

Quote: Rich

In the Volga region, there was intense heat, which led to drought. Similarly in Kazakhstan and in the eastern part of the North Caucasus. The intense heat at 35 degrees, with virtually no rain, stood for two months: July and August. And in early August, the dry winds exacerbated the situation in the Volga region and in Kazakhstan. In some areas of these regions, the crop was completely destroyed.

Well, Dmitry, we sorted it out with the Volga region, the North Caucasus and Kazakhstan (although I do not agree in Kazakhstan), but hunger also swept regions like western Siberia, Altai, southern Siberia, and they were also considered the breadbasket of the country! Those. in fact, hunger covered the entire USSR!

Quote: Rich

The number of people cultivating the land sharply decreased — they left for the city, plus a sharp increase in the land area sown by collective farms, to the detriment of arable land — collective farms were sown not in fields but in fields. It was 1931 and 1932 that became the peak in the number of educated collective farms. Hence the sowing quality And all this multiplied by the weather

Probably the cause of the famine will be more developed. Well, I would add here rash, mostly for the record tick, collectivization on the ground.
Well, in Kazakhstan ... the famine in Kazakhstan was artificial, the father of this hunger was Philip Isaevich Goloshchekin. His "Small October" has done business not only in Kazakhstan but also in Kyrgyzstan!

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: Serg65

Western Siberia, Altai, southern Siberia

Three evidences of contemporaries in Western Siberia:
1. Collective farm: "Hunger? Never heard of it."
2. Collective farm: "The famine in 1933? 1933, on the contrary, was well fed! We received so much bread for workdays - they were transported home by vans!"
3. Regional center about 8-9 km from item 2: "In 1921 and 1933 there was famine. - Why? - Unknown" The dead were not recorded.

[Serg65]

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Three evidences of contemporaries in Western Siberia:

At the same time, my father and five of his brothers ate a quinoa and dead plague pigs! And I somehow trust my father more than some fictitious, anonymous witnesses!

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: Serg65

I believe more than some fictitious, anonymous witnesses!

Just like me! I also trust my relatives more than my beloved whose anonymous anonymous father. Yes, even with the brothers.

[Serg65]

Quote: Sahar Medovich

I also believe my relatives more

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Three evidences of contemporaries in Western Siberia

And who has an anonym? And I ask my father not to touch my dirty little hands!

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Mutually! I’ll ask you not to let go of your dirty little hands or the same language!

[Okolotochny]

That's right, the objective factors (weather) were supplemented by subjective ones - "grain at any cost". This "price" has become human lives and destinies.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Rich

it's all about the weather

Not only. The central strip from west to east of Ukraine (Khmelnitsky, Poltava, Kharkov, parts of the Zhytomyr, Vinnitsa, Kiev, Cherkasy regions) were affected by grain diseases.

[vladcub]

Dmitry, "rich" I do not know what the temperature was in the 30s, but that the comrades on the spot "mowed" a lot - 100%.
I will say using the example of our collective farm: before the war, our collective farm had a chairman (full of a blockhead, but with a good profile), he came up with: sowing wheat in the "February windows", but the people say: "Do not be afraid of spring in February, but be afraid of February ". And so it happened: he finished work in the field earlier than everyone else in the district, he was honored in the district committee, and in April frost hit and ... everything was covered with a copper basin. And in the summer there was a drought. It must be assumed that such blockheads with the "correct" questionnaire were a cart and a cart

[Han Tengri]

Quote: vladcub

full with a club, but with a good profile ....),

"Dubolom", about this - it's somehow too politically correct ...

[Sugar Honeyovich]

A relative's story (Perm region):
"- Yes, they had to tighten their belts - they ate quinoa, nettles, linden blossom. But no one died of hunger.
- Why was there a famine?
- Drought, but most importantly - the collective farms have not yet had time to enter the force. Would have entered - the drought would not have led to hunger. "

[ee2100]

Father hails from Perm Region Berezovsky district. He told me that they ate the quinoa, but that they would not die of hunger, this was not.

[Serg65]

Quote: Sahar Medovich

"- Yes, they had to tighten their belts - they ate quinoa, nettles, linden blossom. But no one died of hunger.
- Why was there a famine?
- Drought, but most importantly - the collective farms have not yet had time to enter the force. Would have entered - the drought would not have led to hunger. "

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Three evidences of contemporaries in Western Siberia:
1. Collective farm: "Hunger? Never heard of it."
2. Collective farm: "The famine in 1933? 1933, on the contrary, was well fed! We received so much bread for workdays - they were transported home by vans!"

So they ate quinoa or delivered bread in vans, are you our anonym? You already decide where you lie and where anonymize?

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Everything is determined in advance, hysterical. I do not lie anywhere and do not anonymize anywhere. And before you write a comment, read someone else's text, and before you publish - your own.

[Serg65]

Quote: Sahar Medovich

I do not lie anywhere and do not anonymize anywhere

Yulia in kindergarten do not work part-time?

[Sugar Honeyovich]

So how are you? No.

[fa2998]

Not only grain export was the cause of the famine. Industrialization - people were traveling from the village to the cities. These are millions, and they also want to eat. It was possible to foresee the consequences. Well, collectivization, dispossession, the village was also a mess. Well, export-currency is needed for equipment.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Krasnodar

Good morning, Dmitriy!
Then what is the cause of the famine? Everything went to the construction site of the century?

There are many reasons, as it usually happens, but Shpakovsky is not interested. He needs to get his 30 pieces of silver.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Krasnodar

As I understand it, the reasons for the famine were the purchase of equipment abroad in exchange for wheat and the provision of bread to industrial centers and construction megaprojects?

No, it's wrong. If you are capable of thinking, then, on reflection, you will understand that both before the "Holodomor" and after, the USSR bought equipment abroad. and especially a lot after 32, but there was no hunger. Moreover, all the old people with whom I had to communicate on this topic assured that they began to live well from 37 to 40. Both villagers and city dwellers spoke about this. Why 40th? Because Stalin began to prepare the country for war, not doubting that it would be. He began to build up strategic reserves.

[Krasnodar]

Except for one factor - if everything is superimposed on crop failure.
They prepared for war with 38, they counted on completely rearming by the 43rd.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Krasnodar

Except for one factor - if everything is superimposed on crop failure.
They prepared for war with 38, they counted on completely rearming by the 43rd.

You are inattentive. I talked about creating strategic reserves, not about rearming the army.

[Krasnodar]

Strategic reserves are frozen and canned meat
Grain -

With grain moisture not exceeding 13%, the shelf life of wheat can be 24 months in all regions of the country except the south. There, this period is halved. The same applies to grain storage, the moisture content of which ranges from 13% to 14%. In the south, such a crop can be stored for no more than six months, while in other regions, wheat has been lying well for 12 months.

Source :: https://fermer.blog/bok/zlaki/pshenica/17556-srok-hranenija-pshenicy.html
© Farmer.Blog
Creating strategic reserves - for how long?

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Krasnodar

Creating strategic reserves - for how long?

When they destroyed my factory and exported materials from the warehouses of the oil refineries, I spoke with the manager of the special. department. So he said that the plant could produce its products within 3 months without receiving anything from the outside. And this is only in the warehouses of the NZ plant.
Strategic reserves are not created for a certain period, but based on opportunities.

[Krasnodar]

These are just reserves. Strategic, i.e. long-term and massive, on the scale of a country such as the USSR, another song and wheat are out of the question. Moreover, technical varieties (feed). In my opinion, they went to meet the needs of growing thanks to the industrialization of industrial centers.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Krasnodar

the scale of a country such as the USSR, another song and wheat are out of place here. Moreover, technical varieties (feed). In my opinion, went to

You are mistaken. Even today, Russia has strategic reserves of flour, and, as you might imagine, it is made from wheat.
Technical varieties are used for the manufacture of alcohol, for example, but feed, it is not wheat, this feed grain (oats, barley) goes to feed livestock, for example, horses. The cavalry horse in the hay will not last long, it definitely needs oats. This does not mean that flour, grain is stored for years, no, it changes every year for fresh.

[Krasnodar]

Flour - I agree. 10 years stored. Feed - 4-5 grade wheat.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Krasnodar

Flour - I agree. 10 years stored. Feed - 4-5 grade wheat.

Generally speaking, speaking about the decline in the standard of living in 40, in connection with the beginning of the creation of strategic reserves, I did not mean only food, although this too. Stocks of everything were created. For example: the USSR undertook to supply Germany, under an economic agreement preceding the Molotov-Ribbentropp pact (the USSR put forward a condition to Germany - first the Economic Agreement and only then the Pact), manganese ore. And supplied ... unenriched. The Germans responded to the claims that we do not have enough enrichment capacities. And they themselves enriched and obtained manganese to the required purity. Some went to industry, and the rest went to the reserve, thanks to which during the Second World War the USSR did not suffer from its shortage. At that time, manganese ore was mined only in one place - in Ukraine.
In addition, the number of working hours of the week increased, discipline tightened, holidays were reduced.

[Krasnodar]

Yes, it’s clear that this is a series of events
Including road construction, railway and other infrastructures
By 1943 they should have been ready, as they say, from all sides

[Undecim]

Judging by the first comments, there will be no discussion again. There will be another mega-srach, and the overwhelming majority of comments will be of three categories:
- there was no famine, everyone came up with corrupt liberal historians-grant-eaters-nationalists to defame the USSR and Russia, they all lie;
- there was a terrible famine, the USSR - a monster created by Jewish Bolsheviks with German money to destroy the Russian people. Some commenters will add that in the Russian Empire, people lived on the jelly banks of dairy rivers and did not starve;
- there was a famine, but it was impossible to build the industrial base of socialism in a different way, because these are justified victims in the foundation of socialism.
The real reason and scale in fact, most are not interested.

[Krasnodar]

As I understand it, the history of tsarist Russia was repeated - we sell wheat despite crop failure

[Cyril G ...]

The famine under the tsars was a completely periodic phenomenon in Russia throughout the second half of the 19th century, the beginning of the 20th

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Krasnodar

As I understand it, the history of tsarist Russia was repeated - we sell wheat despite crop failure

Wrong understand. The USSR sharply reduced wheat exports in 32-34. See Rich's post.
But he didn’t completely stop because there were contractual obligations, the failure of which was fraught with consequences.

[Krasnodar]

I already understood it

[3x3zsave]

Hello, Victor Nikolaevich!
The real reason and scale in fact, most are not interested.
I support. There will be another round of demonization of history. To me personally, the debate about the number of victims seems to be immoral dancing on the bones. It is as if 100 thousand to die of hunger are more fun and easier than 7 million.

[Pane Kohanku]

Support.

Yeah, and me too.

There will be another

Exactly! Everything is exhausted by the phrase at the beginning of the article.

let's forget for a while about the lack of culture of some of our fellow citizens

in principle, truthfully ... It was enough for me to read the forum under the previous article!
Then I somehow came across an article by either a Penza or Tambov researcher about an interesting phenomenon in Russia - "daughter-in-law". Darkness, in fact, as the ancestors sometimes amused themselves. So, Anton, I think that if it is brought up for discussion, then everyone will again be divided into politically irreconcilable ones ... and everything will have the same effect as the helmsman Mao bequeathed: "All lies, all cranks, and some - dazibao on the ass!" and, on the contrary, neither side will hear the other behind their own emotions!
Have a nice week! with respect to all

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Pane Kohanku

request
Then I somehow came across an article by either a Penza or Tambov researcher about an interesting phenomenon in Russia - "daughter-in-law". Darkness, in fact

We all go to the toilet and only individual individuals do it where it is impatient. It’s just that there wasn’t a boroscript who could concoct a scientific treatise on this subject. But as soon as he is found, you and I will immediately find ourselves in such crap that Mama don’t grieve. The main thing is that the borer is more talented and that the scientific degree is more solid.

[Pane Kohanku]

and only individual individuals do it where it is

do! This should not be perceived, as ultra patriots do, that they are trying to drive them, "that we are bad, and everyone else is handsome." Every nation, and even in every locality, has its own rattles. But still, this is, unfortunately, part of the story. The phenomenon was not that everyday, but it did occur. The word "daughter-in-law" even became a curse. Even Doroshevich describes a prisoner in Sakhalin who killed his father for “that very thing” ... Well, what kind of “father” should have been, excuse me?

The main thing is that the borer is more talented and that the scientific degree is more solid.

This often, as you turn, it will be so. Regardless of the material and the author. but much depends on our perception of these words. It is useless to anyone to prove anything.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Pane Kohanku

It is useless to anyone to prove anything. yes

Do you want to prove to me that this is a universal phenomenon of life in Russia?
Are you normal It happened that mother-in-law and what? Anywhere or what?
What are you doing out of molehills.

[Pane Kohanku]

Are you normal

Look for the lexicon. Nobody tried to prove anything to you. Good luck.

[rocket757]

Quote: Undecim

- there was a famine, but it was impossible to build the industrial base of socialism in a different way, because these are justified victims in the foundation of socialism.
The real reason and scale in fact, most are not interested.

The real reasons! Those. obviously not one, not one!
Try to list ...
Those that are explicit, i.e. least of all doubts, about five, but this is clearly not all.

[fuxila]

There will be another mega-srach, and the overwhelming majority of comments will be of three categories:
- there was no famine, everyone came up with corrupt liberal historians-grant-eaters-nationalists to defame the USSR and Russia, they all lie;
- there was a terrible famine, the USSR - a monster created by Jewish Bolsheviks with German money to destroy the Russian people. Some commenters will add that in the Russian Empire, people lived on the jelly banks of dairy rivers and did not starve;
- there was a famine, but it was impossible to build the industrial base of socialism in a different way, because these are justified victims in the foundation of socialism.

And what about this option: Jewish-Bolshevik-Trotskyites staged a famine before which hunger strikes in the Russian Empire faded. They did this to discredit the USSR and topple Stalin, who was building the industrial base of socialism. In the 90s. liberal scholarship historians turned hunger up to tens of millions of deaths, orthodox communists said there was no starvation at all.
Here, of course, I exaggerate, but considering the causes of hunger, a huge number of factors must be taken into account: here, total collectivization, which led to large-scale slaughter of cattle and a reduction in crops that did not want to enter the collective farm as sole farmers, and the struggle for power in the party elite between supporters of Stalin and Trotsky, and local incompetence (twenty-five thousandth workers were sent to manage collective farms), and wheat disease (rust), which swept Eastern Europe at that time (Poland also suffered from hunger), etc.

[Krasnodar]

Jews Bolsheviks Trotskyists were against socialism? Well, yes, they immediately wanted communism, but it turned out only among the Mensheviks, only in Palestine and only in a couple of hundred agricultural communes, for some reason anarchist. Sometimes it seems that students write on the site)).

[fuxila]

Quote: Krasnodar

The Jews, the Bolsheviks, the Trotskyists were against socialism? ... Sometimes it seems that schoolchildren write on the site)).

You still distinguish when they write with irony, and when seriously. It is clear that it is incorrect to put it mildly to present intra-party disassemblies in the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks as interethnic (such as Georgians against Jews).

[Krasnodar]

Sorki, braked

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Krasnodar

Sometimes it seems that students write on the site)).

Well, if you are not a schoolboy, but at least a student, then explain to us, illiterate, how the Bolshevik differs from the Trotskyist.
And, by the famine.
No one will argue with the fact that nobody socialized plots of land (gardens). And if so, then the peasant in the garden grew: potatoes, table and sugar (for himself) and fodder (for livestock) beets, other vegetables (carrots, cabbage, etc.), and poultry (hens, ducks, geese) did not socialize. . All this is a source of food.
If we take socialized cows, then they, being on a collective farm, still milked. And I do not believe that farm workers - residents of the village, meekly gave milk to the city under conditions when their children were starving. And this, too, is a source of food.
Therefore, if we agree with the author of the article and with the Olgovichs of all stripes and ranks, that “the Bolsheviks and commissars raked out all the bread”, the peasants still had sources of food that would allow them to live from hand to mouth, but live.
I repeat once again - there was a famine! There was no famine! There are many causes of hunger. And the mistakes of the authorities, and counteraction of the kulak, and weather conditions, and the disease of grains, and the slaughter of oxen, the main draft force, because of the reluctance of the peasant to turn him over to the collective farm. The hand did not rise on the cow-nurse. Therefore, the restoration of the herd of cattle occurred quickly.

[icelord]

But what about the official information, they lie? So when these numbers took Yeltsin was not. 2008 however

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Krasnodar

Jews Bolsheviks Trotskyists were against socialism?

At that stage, yes. Their goal is a world revolution, and only then, if possible, then socialism. Russia, in their opinion, was supposed to play the role of "brushwood in the fire of the world revolution."

[Octopus]

Quote: Undecim

The real reason and scale in fact, most are not interested.

Of course not.

Russia is a country without history.

[vladcub]

V.N., you are absolutely right: a) in the 30s, collective farmers were brought in 5 carts of food; b) Jewish Bolsheviks and Stalin personally, burned all the bread on the orders of the "Zionists". As a result, everyone died out, and the remaining Bolsheviks began to play against each other and now they cannot stop.

[Engineer]

The real reason and scale in fact, most are not interested.

And what prevents us all from trying to figure out at least the scale? Right here in the comments.
And compare with "accursed tsarism", for example. After all, this is one of the forms of comprehending history

Here is a classic work to assess what was going on under the recent tsarism.

V. I. Pokrovsky, Effect of crop fluctuations and grain prices on the natural movement of the population; The influence of crops and grain prices on some aspects of the Russian national economy, ed. A.I. Chuprov and A.S. Postnikov, vol. II, St. Petersburg, 1897

Here is this gentleman

The date of publication clearly indicates that blindly trusting the source should not be, but nevertheless, in a first approximation, it is very useful. On the other hand, Vasily Ivanovich should not be suspected of sympathy for tsarism
For me it was a completely new topic, therefore it was surprising how clear everything is with statistics on the provinces. I didn’t dig the topic, therefore, categorical conclusions are inappropriatebut nevertheless it allows to clarify a lot
For the famine of 1891-1892, I will use the Sammari from Robbins simply because it is easier to find. The calculation is based on Pokrovsky’s data, which is indicated below.

Source
http://library6.com/3596/item/558321
The surge in mortality is 410 thousand.

On the other hand, we have from one and a half to 7 million victims 40 years later with a different level of medicine, social inclusion, transport and agricultural development. Is the difference cool?
But many of our people have an "extraordinary lightness" in their thoughts:

“Nobody deliberately starved people. They just forced grain procurements, and when they realized it was too late.

Do you know what it painfully reminded me of? In the same way, effective managers from Rusnano explained to me their failures at a conference

"We did, but we made a mistake. Well, it happens, but we did at least something

[Undecim]

And what prevents us all from trying to figure out at least the scale?
In order to understand "all together", it is necessary that "all together" have such a desire. However, as the comments show, the overwhelming majority have a ready-made answer and there is no desire to look for another. A long period of using history for propaganda purposes has done its job - history as such is of no interest to anyone.

[Engineer]

In order to understand "all together", it is necessary that "all together" have such a desire.

I still believe that desires all not necessary.
The comprehension of history is a personal and continuous process. Unification of opinions is impossible, but there is simply an extension of the notorious horizons of knowledge. At least on an individual scale.

[Undecim]

With "personality and continuity" I'm fine. And with an "individual scale". Here with participation in srach not very much. This is not my habitat.

[Engineer]

I have no doubt.
My original post is just an invitation to everyone, I think you understand.

[Engineer]

Looking through the comments, he noticed that the theory about the outbreak of malaria in 1933 as one of the main causes of death still found fiery admirers.

So, the MYTH on the Holodomor versus the MYTH on malaria

You can find it here
http://m.log-in.ru/books/reader/elena-prudnikova-ivan-chigirin-mifologiya-golodomora/
Prudnikova's book is devoted to the problem of hunger specifically in Ukraine
The beginning is quite peppy. Excess mortality in Ukraine calculated on the basis of weather statistics
The estimated number of victims of Prudnikova in the Ukrainian SSR (upper threshold) 1 thousand people
Next went the burn
Table 2
Fertility and mortality in the Ukrainian SSR for 1932 and 1933 by month

Looking at this data, you generally cease to understand anything. Hunger in Russia is a studied phenomenon. Mortality from starvation begins in the winter, increases by spring, reaching its peak in March-April, and by the beginning of summer is waning.
The minimum mortality that winter falls on December-January. Since February, it has been growing sharply, both in cities and in villages, in April-May it grows in cities in comparison with January data about two times, in villages where people mostly live on their stocks, in April - four , and in May - almost six times, despite the grass, early vegetables and other gifts of the forest and fields. And then something incomprehensible begins. Instead of the set recession, the growth of mortality continues. In June-July, mortality in cities is two and a half times higher than in January, and in villages - eight and seven times! Then it begins to fall, although it still remains elevated, reaches the January figure by October and decreases further.
Let us now look at the data of 1932 - and see the same picture there. Since February, mortality begins to increase. In May, in cities it rises by only 25%, but in villages - by two-thirds, again reaches a maximum in June (one and a half times more in cities and almost twice as much in villages), in July it keeps at the same level, it starts to fall in August, although not as sharply as in 1933, but when does it reach the January figure? That's right, by October, and is going down further. Moreover, more people died in the summer of 1932 than in the hungry winter of 1932/33.
A simple calculation shows that this “abnormal”, abnormal mortality in 1933 accounts for about 75 people in cities and 000 in villages, that is, more than half of those who died in that fateful year in Ukraine could not die of starvation by definition!
What's the matter?

Mrs. Prudnikova’s root of all ills is malaria, more precisely tropical malaria

As noted in the Russian Medical Journal, “three-day, four-day, and oval malaria are benign infections and almost never lead to death, while tropical malaria with late and / or inadequate treatment almost always leads to the death of the patient” [

Table 3

The abnormal mortality of the author is 875 thousand. Prudnikova directly says that they are victims of malaria. Even the chapter is called Victims of a killer mosquito
We look at table 3. 1933. Ukraine. 767 cases were recorded. Is that all? Well, albeit the statistics are incomplete, but the mortality rate is almost 224%. Where is such a game from? Everywhere we had that latest / inadequate treatment ???
Even more striking is the comparison of patients with malaria in Ukraine since 1934. Their number in 1934 increased almost three times !!! Malaria surpassed hunger in mortality in the terrible 1933. So in 34, the population decline should have been even more significant, even if there was no more hunger. Here are just a table 1 says that this year there was an increase. It turns out that in the year 34, malaria almost ceased to be deadly.
The question arises, what level of intelligence is all this designed for?

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Engineer

The abnormal mortality of the author is 875 thousand. Prudnikova directly says that these are victims of malaria

You should not take an example from the pathological liar Olgych, especially if you brought a link.

In 1933, over one hundred thousand people exceeded the indicators for typhus (212 people) and malaria (644 people)

Typhoid fever is not a paradise either.

Quote: Engineer

So in 34, the population decline should have been even more significant, even if there was no more hunger. Here are just a table 1 says that this year there was an increase. It turns out that in the year 34, malaria almost ceased to be deadly.

There is an explanation for your link:
In Ukraine, the peak incidence occurred in 1934, but mortality did not increase that year. Why?

We can only guess about the reasons - but we can guess. Firstly, in 1934 there was no famine, the population was stronger - pbecause a body weakened by hunger resists any disease worse. Secondly - as we already wrote, four forms of malaria are known, and only one is particularly dangerous. There is no disaggregation by type of disease in the TSUNHU data. However, simple logic says that during an epidemic, the struggle is primarily with the most dangerous forms, and if the Ministry of Health of Ukraine concentrated main efforts in areas affected by tropical malaria (even to the detriment of others), such a mismatch could very well have occurred.

Quote: Engineer

The question arises, what level of intelligence is all this designed for?

You can ask the same about your comment.

[Engineer]

875 thousand deaths in excess of starvation, Prudnikova estimates What are my complaints?

Typhoid fever is not a paradise either.

Even if typhoid is included in the causes of supermortality, nevertheless the death rate from malaria is close to 100%, this has never happened anywhere.

Secondly, as we have already written, four forms of malaria are known, and only one is especially dangerous.
however, simple logic says that during an epidemic, the struggle is primarily with the most dangerous forms, and if the Ministry of Health of Ukraine focused on areas covered by tropical malaria (even to the detriment of others), such a mismatch could well occur.

There are no documents, only speculation. A three-fold increase in the incidence rate says malaria was not defeated by the word at all. If it was tropical, then most likely it remained — the same speculation is only much more logical.

since an organism weakened by hunger resists worse any disease.

Indeed, a sharp jump in deaths from disease is an indispensable companion to hunger. Therefore, the victims of "malaria" (typhoid, whatever) are also victims hunger, for if there hadn’t been a famine, they would have survived, as the statistics of 1934 show

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Engineer

875 thousand deaths in excess of starvation, Prudnikova estimates What are my complaints?

But it was you who tied them to death strictly from malaria

Quote: Engineer

The abnormal mortality of the author is 875 thousand. Prudnikova directly says that they are victims of malaria.

And this, on the example of typhoid, shows what you are confusing, maybe, unlike Olgych, and unintentionally.

Quote: Engineer

There are no documents, only speculation. A three-fold increase in the incidence rate says malaria was not defeated by the word at all. If it was tropical, then most likely it remained — the same speculation is only much more logical.

Those. Do you deny the existence of several types of malaria? Well, the difference from you Prudnikova is based on statistical data and long-term observations.

They were not used in vain - but they still could not prevent the outbreak of this disease, for example, in Belarus: in 1935 the number of malaria patients compared to 1933 increased four times!

So about speculation, this, sorry, is for you.

Quote: Engineer

Indeed, a sharp jump in deaths from disease is an indispensable companion to hunger. Therefore, victims of "malaria" (typhoid, whatever) are also victims of hunger,

And here the concepts of absolute hunger and relative

“There are two forms of hunger - explicit (absolute hunger) and latent (relative hunger: malnutrition, lack or lack of vital components in the diet). In both forms, hunger leads to grave consequences - increased incidence of infectious, mental and other diseases associated with metabolic disorders, to limited physical and mental development (see Starvation), premature death ”

, this is what? And to the fact that when natural comparisons of famine under Soviet power and famine under the tsars begin, then practically any supermortality goes to the Soviets as from hunger, and to the tsars whatever you like, and from anything, from the laziness of the peasant, poor crops, up to "God gave, God took. " but not from hunger.

[Engineer]

But it was you who tied them to death strictly from malaria

Begin already normally, thoughtfully read. And me and Prudnikov

Moreover, it is malaria that gives a characteristic, pronounced summer peak in incidence. We think that there are no other reasons for the summer peak in mortality.

Go ahead

Those. Do you deny the existence of several types of malaria?

So about speculation, this, sorry, is for you.

So, Prudnikova formulates the thesis about tropical malaria killer, but at the same time
1. She does not have statistics on mortality for malaria in 1933. Though tropical though not tropical. There are scanty data for the 20th year from which it is clear that malaria (it is not clear which) is not super-killer.
2. No statistics on tropical malaria (only total for malaria)
3. There are no statistics for 1933 on the peak of diseases in the summer. There is a quote from the big medical encyclopedia. But from nowhere it follows that in 1933 specifically it was just that. Mr. Mironin, for example, argues

In 1933, in Ukraine, the increase in the incidence of malaria was in September 1933, which does not coincide with the peak of excess mortality

Link to the archive

41. RGAE. Fund 1562. Inventory 329. Storage unit 81.

http://www.economics.kiev.ua/index.php?id=999&view=article

If THIS is not a speculative theory, then we have nothing to talk about.

And to the fact that when natural comparisons of famine under Soviet power and famine under the tsars begin, then practically any supermortality goes to the Soviets as from hunger, and to the tsars whatever you like, and from anything, from the laziness of the peasant, poor crops, up to "God gave, God took. " but not from hunger.

I can’t say anything for others. Above, Robbins cited starvation 1891-1892. The calculation is based on the surge in mortality based on statistics on fixing mortality by year. Like Prudnikova

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Engineer

Begin already normally, thoughtfully read. And me and Prudnikov

Oh well,

Quote: Engineer

Moreover, it is malaria that gives a characteristic, pronounced summer peak in incidence. We think that other reasons for the summer peak in mortality can not be sought.

But if you read further, then not very carefully and certainly not thoughtfully. Because having written that "you can not search", Prudnikova for some reason did not stop in search:

Let's go back to Ukraine. The writer Sigismund Mironin put forward the version that a significant part of those who are considered dead from hunger actually died for a completely different reason.
“In order to understand the causes of death of these people, we need to look at the appearance of the dead - they were swollen ... ...
Sigismund Mironin suggested that one of the main causes of death was ... bread!
“Is it possible to poison bread? Can! For example, if it contains a sufficient number of highly toxic parasites. Usually these are fungi. ...

E. Prudnikova does not at all put forward malaria as the main reason for supermortality (I think it is clear why supermortality), she is looking for an explanation of this anomaly in general! From your own link, this is understandable.

Quote: Engineer

But from nowhere it follows that in 1933 specifically it was just that. Mr. Mironin, for example, argues

In 1933, in Ukraine, the increase in the incidence of malaria was in September 1933, which does not coincide with the peak of excess mortality

That's what it is, "But it doesn't follow from anywhere that it was exactly like that in 1933," why would it be from nowhere? Prudnikova directly states:

During the pandemic, the nature of the monthly curve in the USSR changed dramatically: in the European part of the USSR, where the maximum of diseases previously occurred for many years every year in May, he moved in September 1922; in 1923 it was observed in June, and only in the following years the curve again assumed its usual character with a maximum in May.

http://enc.biblioclub.ru/termin/7498001_317 рабочая ссылка.
And Mironin claims:

It is known that at present, mortality from malaria is about 1-2% of the number of cases. Suppose that in 1933 it was 5-10%. Then it turns out that from malaria in Ukraine in 1933, 100 or 200 thousand people died. Even if we accept that about 500 thousand people died from malaria and other infectious diseases

More precisely, it does not state but assumes, but above it is the same:

In the village of Kozhevino (Nizhne-Volzhsk Territory) in 1933 out of 228 dead 81 died of typhus and 125 from malaria.The following figures indicate the scale of the tragedy of the village: in 1931, 20 people died of typhus and malaria, in 1932 . - 23, and in 1933 - over 200

Very strange, don’t you? There is no epidemic, but mortality is almost tenfold.

Quote: Engineer

41. RGAE. Fund 1562. Inventory 329. Storage unit 81

Try it out on this link somewhere.

Quote: Engineer

I can’t say anything for others. Above, Robbins cited starvation 1891-1892. The calculation is based on the surge in mortality based on statistics on fixing mortality by year. Like Prudnikova

Prudnikova relies on ALL-WAY declassified statistics where the ALL figure of supermortality is about 2,7 million in two years, and what does Robbins rely on? For data on only 16 provinces in one year, which does not include data on foreigners and babies up to a year (can I be wrong here)?

Quote: Engineer

based on Pokrovsky's data
The surge in mortality is 410 thousand.
On the other hand, we have from one and a half to 7 million victims 40 years later with a different level of medicine, social inclusion, transport and agricultural development.

If you do not consider the spread of figures from 1,5 to 7 million as a result of speculation, then you didn’t really want the figure (clearly underestimated) of 410 tons. You don’t think the person is big, then you didn’t really want to

Quote: Engineer

If THIS is not a speculative theory, then we have nothing to talk about.

[Engineer]

E. Prudnikova does not at all put forward malaria as the main cause of supermortality (I think it is clear why supermortality), she is looking for an explanation of this anomaly in general!

Once again a reading lesson from Prudnikova for you

Moreover, it is malaria that gives a characteristic, pronounced summer peak in incidence. We think that there are no other reasons for the summer peak in mortality.

But if you read further, then not very carefully and certainly not thoughtfully. Because having written that "you can not search", Prudnikova for some reason did not stop in search:

The trick is that she stopped there, the infection of bread is discussed in the next chapter with a talking title
Why did children die in Moscow?
She does not evaluate the contribution to the Holodomor of grain diseases at all.. Even approximately Even indirectly
Just read, there’s only one chapter, even you’ll master

And Mironin claims:

Exactly. Stalinist Mironin denies the epidemic. Doesn’t cause cognitive dissonance?

Further charming passage

During the pandemic, the nature of the monthly curve in the USSR changed dramatically: in the European part of the USSR, where the maximum of diseases previously occurred for many years every year in May, he moved in September 1922; in 1923 it was observed in June, and only in the following years the curve again assumed its usual character with
maximum in May.

The original post looked like this

But from nowhere it follows that in 1933 specifically it was just like that

We are studying exactly 1933. What is incomprehensible here. Therefore, statistics and observations
needed for 1933. General laws and even those formulated by the example of the 20s are not suitable. Does this need to be explained?

Prudnikova relies on ALL-WAY declassified statistics where the entire figure of supermortality is about 2,7 million in two years

What pathos))). Learn to read and you will find out that in the parsed book Prudnikova gives mortality statistics and estimates only for the Ukrainian SSR

For data on only 16 provinces in one year, which does not include data on foreigners and babies up to a year (can I be wrong here)?

Learn to read. You will find out why the data is only about 16 provinces
Learn to read and find out why the data is for 1892.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Engineer

in the next chapter with a talking title
Why did children die in Moscow?
She does not evaluate the contribution to the Holodomor of grain diseases at all. Even approximately Even indirectly

Teacher You are so-so, because:

As we already wrote, we could not find information on the causes of death in Ukraine in the archives. However data analysis for other republics showed that that year there was another, very strange “epidemic”, the reasons for which we could not find. However, some assumptions can be made - and these assumptions seem terribly real.
And besides, there is no reason to believe that this incomprehensible "epidemic" Bypassed Ukraine.

This chapter directly concerns Ukraine, only on examples of cities of the RSFSR, for:

Not everywhere in the USSR the statistical data collection machine was already debugged, but in the cities of the RSFSR it worked

, but you didn’t master it, in the second, then the whole paragraph, and the masterwork has already broken.

Quote: Engineer

We are studying exactly 1933. What is incomprehensible here. Therefore, statistics and observations
needed for 1933. General laws and even those formulated by the example of the 20s are not suitable. Does this need to be explained?

Yes, because if the data for the 30s. no, but they don’t exist, then extrapolation (the usual technique generally) is applied from similar examples, and why wouldn’t this technique be applied by 1933, why? Explain your logic, which is pretty flawed, as for me.

Quote: Engineer

Prudnikova relies on ALL-WAY declassified statistics where the entire figure of supermortality is about 2,7 million in two years

What pathos))). Learn to read and you will find out that in the parsed book Prudnikova gives mortality statistics and calculations only for the Ukrainian SSR

Hey teacher, where did Prudnikova get the numbers from the Ukrainian SSR? And re-read your own comments, coming with:

Quote: Engineer

The trick is that she stopped there, the infection of bread is discussed in the next chapter with a talking title
Why did children die in Moscow?

She considers Prudnikov’s statistics on the RSFSR, moreover, from the same sources as in Ukraine, but you didn’t even see it in your own comment and contradict yourself, this is the level.

Quote: Engineer

Exactly. Stalinist Mironin denies the epidemic. Doesn’t cause cognitive dissonance?

You wipe your eyes:

Quote: Vladimir_2U

And Mironin claims:
It is known that at present, mortality from malaria is about 1-2% of the number of cases. Suppose that in 1933 it was 5-10%. Then it turns out that from malaria in Ukraine in 1933 100 or 200 thousand people died. Even if you acceptthat about 500 thousand people died from malaria and other infectious diseases

Mironin denies ALL the super-mortality from diseases, but does not deny that part of these figures occurred in epidemics (because 200 people with typhoid are also an epidemic), this is elementary logic, which seems to you to be inaccessible.

Quote: Engineer

For data on only 16 provinces in one year, which does not include data on foreigners and babies up to a year (can I be wrong here)?

Learn to read. You will find out why the data is only about 16 provinces
Learn to read and find out why the data is for 1892.

Well, for you, it’s already clear that if you read carefully that it’s not a fact, you simply can’t understand much (or pretend). But to the table, why is 1891 not indicated? From the text of the table and your comment, this is decidedly incomprehensible. And in the provinces, even if you believe the numbers in the table, the lower limit is indicated in 3 people. and what numbers less than this can not be considered? And what figures can be ignored: 861 t, 3,5 t, 2 t? And even taking 1 t. People who died of starvation and multiplying by the remaining 1 provinces of European Russia (only European!) We get 34 thousand people, and if 34 tons, and if 2 tons? And if we recall about 3,5 provinces of the South- and Northwest Territories, about the governor general, 9 regions of the Central Asian possessions? How easily they forgave the breakthrough of both lands and people that you, that yours

Sammari from Robbins

.
Well, once again I will poke you into an inaccurate account of dead Gentiles and infants, whose birth was simply not registered up to a year (unreliably), about which you modestly did not remember.

[Engineer]

Do you want to argue or sort it out?

Teacher You are so-so, because:

This chapter directly concerns Ukraine, only on examples of cities of the RSFSR, for:

Again. Prudnikova notes mortality from food poisoning in other regions and concludes that in Ukraine it was the same. Who argues. But the contribution to the supermortality of these poisonings has not been analyzed. There is not even a hypothetical assessment. The bridge is not thrown. And since this is not there, there is no need to talk about the contribution to supermortality. Nothing to discuss

Hey teacher, where did Prudnikova get the numbers from the Ukrainian SSR? And re-read your own comments, coming with:

Key word mortality. We talked about mortality. Why jump from chair to chair ?. Mortality statistics are provided only for the Ukrainian SSR. And a mortality estimate of 1.8 million (upper limit) is given only for the Ukrainian SSR. . That's all.

Mironin denies ALL super-mortality from disease

Here I myself am to blame for being too lazy to print "contribution to supermortality from the epidemic"

So, neither malnutrition nor infectious diseases can explain such high numbers of excess mortality.

You can say the same position

Yes, because if the data for the 30s. no, but they are not, then extrapolation is applied

I explain. Extrapolation is an assumption. It is suitable for the working hypothesis accepted by the researcher at the initial level. But if there is no further verification of it with real data, then it remains an assumption. And all conclusions based on speculation are speculative. This is a simple methodology.

But to the table, why is 1891 not indicated? From the text of the table and your comment, this is decidedly incomprehensible. And in the provinces, even if you believe the numbers in the table, the lower limit is indicated in 3 people. and what numbers less than this can not be considered?

Your problem is that arguing is more important than understanding. You expect the opponent to do everything, and you will bring him to clean water. Naturally, I did not repost the entire book. Nevertheless, all the answers are in Robbins' book. She is not big.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Undecim

- there was no hunger, everyone came up with corrupt liberal historians-

The hunger was, and strong. But not on such a scale and not with those culprits that Shpakovsky is trying to convince us of, having pulled quotations convenient for his version.

[Vitaly Tsymbal]

Dear author, what you wrote has long ceased to be something interesting. This topic, in a one-sided presentation - the power at the bottom is bad, because industrialization wanted to eat))) ... In the USSR in the first half of the 80s, and maybe earlier, this topic was not a secret, only students of history and higher schools of the CPSU and The Komsomol (there were such people) studied the topics not who is to blame (the guilty ones - even Sholokhov's work is obliquely indicated), but what was done by the authorities and the party to fight hunger. This topic will remain the basis for political manipulation (Ukraine is an example of that) while historians will cover it in the framework of "you cannot feed it". The comma is now placed mainly after the word morit. To understand the essence, we need not statistics and archives of the repressive authorities, but also documents on the actions of the authorities during the famine to help the hungry. How effective was it in different regions? One gets the impression that no one fought hunger, but specifically killed some for the sake of others ... Therefore, your article is an "empty" shot and is not interesting. Now, if you compared the mistakes and positive actions of the authorities, it would be more interesting and informative. And so ... not even a topic for a more or less serious discussion.

[parusnik]

Vitaly, you are right. Famine is covered only by NKVD documents and moreover, selectively, and not by others: how many cultivated areas, how much is sown, how many are sown, how many have been planted, how many are harvested, weather conditions ... For example, the famine in 1947, my mother told me that it rains there wasn’t, from the word at all, the heat was unbearable, dusty wheat rose, but so low that it was difficult to remove with a sickle, the ear was half empty ...

[Nagaibak]

parusnik "The famine is covered only by the documents of the NKVD and selectively."
They discover all of America))) In Ukraine, they decided on the Holodomor for a long time.))) And who is to blame and what to do. Olgovichi banned the Communists and grace came from them.))))

[Doctor]

To understand the essence, not statistics and archives of repressive bodies are needed, but documents on the actions of the authorities during the famine to help the starving. How effective was it in different regions? One gets the impression that no one was fighting hunger, but they were specially killed for the sake of others.

For personal reasons, he was specially interested in this issue, re-read much of what the author indicated.

Despite the fact that he’s never a fan of Stalin, I got the impression: no one specially I didn’t starve.
We needed grain, including for export.
Although squeezed out of the peasants to the maximum, it seemed at the top that there were still fat, they were hiding, cheating, etc.
We realized when the plague began, and began to return back from the bases. But did not have time.

First, like this:

From a letter of I.V. Stalin V.M. Molotov. About the timing of the export of bread
Not earlier than 23.08.1930/XNUMX/XNUMX
... 2) We still have 1-1,5 months. for bread export: from the end of October (and maybe even earlier) American bread will begin to enter the market on a mass scale, against which it will be difficult for us to resist. If during these 1–1,5 months. we will not take out 130-150 million pounds. bread, our currency situation may then become directly desperate. Again: it is necessary to force the export of bread with all its might1.
Stalin
RGASPI. F. 588. Op. 1. D. 5388. L. 121ob. Manuscript. Autograph.

Then:

Special communication of the Secret Political Department of the OGPU of the USSR about food difficulties in Kazakhstan
22.05.1932
Top secret
In Karkaraly and Bayan-Aul regions of Kazakhstan, due to over-difficulties, a mass movement of the population (mainly collective farmers) to Karaganda is observed in order to find work, and when moving, a significant number of migrants die from exhaustion.
In Palmanovsky r. 1 in the village. Collective farm, Stepnoy, Fun and Tokarevka since the end of March found 50 dead bodies from starvation and 192 people. (including 67 children and 17 teenagers), completely exhausted and unable to move. Local authorities provided help to the starving. Children are placed in an orphanage, and adults are sent to work.
The situation in the regions is informed by the krai and SNK.
The beginning SPO OGPU G. Molchanov
The beginning 2 branches Lyushkov
TSA FSB of the Russian Federation. F. 2. Op. 10. D. 508. L. 452. A certified copy.


We realized:

From the minutes No. 92 of the meeting of the Politburo of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks "On Food Aid to Kazakhstan"
16.03.1932
35/41. Release Kazakhstan additional food loan in the amount of 500 thousand pounds. rye and a million pounds of millet. To oblige the NKPS to complete the delivery to Kazakhstan of an additional food loan.
RGASPI. F. 17. Op. 162. D. 12. L. 9. Certified copy.

[Pane Kohanku]

The beginning 2 branches Lyushkov

Familiar surname! The same one? that a few years later "I entered very interestingly" ... And this was the very last reason for the removal of Yezhov.

[icelord]

Of course they didn’t intentionally stain, robbers also have nothing personal. Your good is necessary and all

[Million]

I read the title of the article, the author’s name Shpakovsky went down ...
I did not read about the villains of the Communists

[Nagaibak]

Million "I didn't read about the scoundrels of the communists."
Well, Shpakovsky has some good articles. Another thing is that people have anti-communist propaganda and different vyser..y against the USSR formed a persistent allergy.)))

[sergo1914]

Quote: Nagaibak

Million "I didn't read about the scoundrels of the communists."
Well, Shpakovsky has some good articles. Another thing is that people have anti-communist propaganda and different vyser..y against the USSR formed a persistent allergy.)))

That's for sure. The mister loves to hack on the "bones". I see the following picture. It seems that the bottom has already been reached. But then another historical somersault - and the next bottom is broken. Further immersion in progress. Well, and periodic advertising of "beloved by millions" of books and "most professional" textbooks. And this person teaches students PR?

[Nagaibak]

sergo1914 "The gentleman loves to use the" bones ".
I don't think he is "hyping". I meant other pretzels. But according to the article, we can say that she was not particularly impressed.))) There is nothing new in it. The usual retelling of the Libertian snowstorm that we have been listening to since the 90s. What's new? There were victims, and who doubts them? The number of victims, well, it depends on the imagination of the authors.))) Condemned the authorities? So who has not condemned those responsible for these victims? The communists were the first in my opinion and condemned ... u for various excesses and so on. And then they just did what they condemned those involved and not involved in this tragedy.

[hhhhhhh]

When our descendants watch the censuses of the 90s, especially in the republics, they will brand the Russians in the 90s-00s famine. Now according to the data, is the population decline not greater than during the war?
If collectivization was to increase labor productivity and a market for agricultural machinery, due to which it was possible to carry out industrialization. The decline of the population of the 90s was for the sake of de-industrialization and to open its market for Western products.

[EvilLion]

Our government still repeats the nonsense that Khrushchev carried from the rostrum, although he was carrying nonsense. And the dead in the Second World War were counted up to 27 million only in order to vaccinate the sufferer complex, although this number is not confirmed by any data, and actually, apparently, 18-19 million with all civilians (underperformance is not taken into account here).

E. Prudnikova in her book on famine comes to a general supermortality over a period of 1.8 million, and a very strange supermortality occurring in the summer, and in the summer, even in the besieged Leningrad, they did not die of hunger. Along the way, a serious epidemic of malaria was discovered in the Ukrainian SSR during the same period, because forestry fell into decay during the war, so no one restored it in the 20s, swamps and mosquitoes became abundant and the epidemiological situation was difficult. A separate topic is the contamination of ergot, such a grain could en masse in cities, respectively, people died there, and not in the village.

As for the Mukhinsky theory that Little Russians out of greed had forgotten draft animals, because the then henchmen explained to them that they would drive everyone to collective farms, and the city would devour them (they didn’t do this in the Great Russian regions, because they didn’t do it on oxen, but they plowed on horses, and Russian horses, as a rule, do not eat (I generally consider this a crime) and slaughtering a horse is meaningless), and then there was nothing to plow, then this is just one of many factors.

And the famine there is very strange, when even in one village almost everyone could eat normally, except for several families, whom the collective farm sent in 3 letters for past "merits". And to pour grain into pits, where it often rotted, and the kulaks outwitted themselves, as if it were also fashionable.

[Million]

Quote: Nagaibak

Well, Shpakovsky has some good articles. Another thing is that people have anti-communist propaganda and different vyser..y against the USSR formed a persistent allergy.)))

Believe it or not, this is already a matter of professional competence of every citizen, and it is clear that the opinion of a doctor of historical sciences, who has studied this problem for many years, has much more weight than the opinion of a stubborn amateur.

The doctor of historical sciences, in addition to competence, may also have selfish or any other interest, which, especially now, is not uncommon ...

[Galleon]

To the author: dear Vyacheslav, accept my sincere thanks for your article. The review of sources and the list of researchers is impressive. Yours sincerely.

[avia12005]

The first figures given by the author on the number of those who died from hunger refer to 1946. Why hasn't anyone bothered to count before? And why was this "truth" revealed to some Lorimer? Why Goebbels during

[avia12005]

The first figures given by the author on the number of those who died from hunger refer to 1946. Why hasn't anyone bothered to count before? And why was this "truth" revealed to some Lorimer? Why did Goebbels not use such a destructive pretext for propaganda during the war? I used Katyn, but here millions were killed at the hands of Soviet power ... What, I didn't know? Did the Abwehr slap? And to believe our State Duma - not to respect ourselves in historical matters. She took this in order to please the Western "partners", which makes no sense to list. But how did it happen that hundreds of thousands of workers appeared "out of nowhere" at the hundreds and hundreds of factories put into operation at the same time? In Kharkov, for example, there is famine, but the Tractor Plant is launched right there? What is it like???

The farther into the forest, the more millions die of hunger.

[Maks1995]

Great article. And without politicism. And with numbers, links, from where alternative options are taken. What a rarity. Respect.

Not everything in the history of Russia is smeared with honey ....

[Cyril G ...]

By the way, and someone on the fingers will explain what we had during the 19-20 century with the cultivation of potatoes? Briefly and in the framework of educational program?

[Engineer]

I do not pretend to be a comprehensive answer, but my opinion was that it was going very little compared to bread
Source Temporary Central Statistical Committee
http://library6.com/3596/item/821665
Page 12

[Cyril G ...]

Thanks for the info

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Cyril G ...

What did we have during the 19-20 century with the cultivation of potatoes? Briefly and in the framework of educational program?

Well, in short ... A recidivist thief comes up to me like that, says: Vovan, teach me to plant potatoes, otherwise I have never planted anything in my life except hemp ... "

[depressant]

From everything you need to learn lessons. But are we extracting? Yes, in the 30s of the 20th century, hunger was caused by industrialization, which was necessary to preserve the country. During the period from 29 to 31 years, 12,9 million people left the villages. The fields remained uncleaned, in some cases even the army was involved in harvesting. Young people and the middle generation went to the city and to construction sites - someone at the call of the party, inspired by the construction of a new society, someone just for a better share. The famine that arose after the 31st due to the lack of those same 12,9 million strong peasant hands, weather conditions, low productivity and the general confusion and even brutality of collectivization was quickly overcome. Eternal memory to the victims ...
And now we have deindustrialization. The decision on the privatization of state enterprises, read the bankruptcy of the remnants of Soviet industry, is in full swing. No one has canceled this decision, it is in force. Of the new ones, only oil and gas transfer enterprises, tankers and ships are created to ensure the transport of fossils in Arctic waters, pipelines. Were the victims of the ancestors in vain?
And I hear:
- Danger! .. Danger! .. Danger! ...
Does this hear our power?
We are not ancestors, and power is not Stalin; the torch is not in our hands. The banner does not hold in hands. Does not put a candle on the window.

[BREAKTHROUGH READY]

From everything you need to learn lessons. But are we extracting?

And right there, without leaving the cash register, you are rewriting history, passing off other people's crimes (incompetence, negligence) as "a necessary sacrifice for the sake of industrialization." Is it some kind of schiz or bipolar?

[depressant]

But have I distorted something? Read carefully, colleague, this and my previous posts. Do you want to say something? So speak without characterizing my personality. Give the facts in favor of your opinion! Should I guess it? Otherwise, what kind of conversation is this? Making a clinical diagnosis to an opponent is not an argument. We are not here at the doctor’s appointment; we are discussing a serious economic and political problem, which is of paramount importance to us, current ones. Namely: how, in the current realities, to pursue an internal state policy in such a way as not to slide to the famine of the pre-revolutionary and post-revolutionary years. And then they’ve taken fashion: it’s almost not so, and you have a diagnosis in your forehead. Calm down, colleague - look indecent. And it would be worthy. Argument your allegiance to the victims.

[parusnik]

depressant Lyudmila, hunger during industrialization ... At the beginning of the 17th century during the reign of B. Godunov there was no industrialization, but there was hunger .. Weather conditions. Natural factors ... Then no one counted how many people died of hunger, but not a few died and cannibalism was ... Yes, and historians B. Godunov do not blame starvation ... And the lessons. The lessons were done after all .. After 1947 there were no hungry years. And what are the lessons. They began to plant forest belts in large numbers, dig ponds and it's all in especially in arid areas .. By the way, N. Khrushchev then closed this large-scale project .. He carried out the imization, closed the forest stations that were engaged in this ... And by the way, there is still a silent film Thirst, shot in the late 20s, if I’m not mistaken .. about reclamation and the plot is far from propaganda ... My post is in addition to your post ... And the last one as a factor ... the USSR was mired deeply in sanctions by Western states, almost from the moment of the proclamation of Soviet power ...

[Free wind]

Khrushchev, of course, I do not think is a good leader, there are a lot of different not-so-smart decisions on his account .. But forest belts were planted right up to the 90s. Forest stations yes removed. There were Leskhozes who were engaged in forest planting, collecting seeds of trees, seedlings were grown. organization of felling. Forest belts obligated to plant state farms and collective farms, explained that it was beneficial for them themselves, since it reduces soil weathering and delays snow, and paid for it. Ponds, ponds organized collective farms primarily for livestock watering. And the attitude to land reclamation in Siberia is ambiguous negative. The thoughtless richest burs were cut down. They could not plow and sow there. and these swamps are overgrown with talnik and stunted aspen. Sanctions, what sanctions, Americans, Europeans sold us advanced equipment, factories.

[Oleg Skvortsov]

Mr. Shpakovsky. you’d better start collecting figures right now, statistics on the current defeat of Russia and the destruction of its population. Go out into the street - hordes of unemployed bearded migrant workers go, the number of homeless people and drunken people who just wallow in streets and stops increases, swollen middle-aged women and men sit in basements, yelling near houses, children are left to their own devices. This is only two months of criminal self-isolation.

[bober1982]

Quote: Oleg Skvortsov

Go outside - hordes of unemployed bearded migrant workers go, in geometric progression the number of homeless people and drunken people who just lie on the streets and stops increases, swollen middle-aged women and men sit in basements, yelling near houses

Will you fantasize, it's just sheer stupidity, why should you be so "fired"

[bober1982]

Quote: Oleg Skvortsov

Go outside

You forgot to mention the starving and feral Russians who lined up for children's benefits.
Attention, do not confuse with queues at public transport stops in the neighboring pseudo-state.

[Nonna]

Beaver, do you mean neighboring Switzerland? I don’t know how it is in London - I haven’t been, but while in Krasnodar, drunk is wallowing at stops in alarming quantities, and the authorities do not care

[bober1982]

Nonna, I mean not Switzerland, but the psycho-units of neighboring, and not only neighboring states.
O. Skvortsov, it’s not professional, failure, it’s just ridiculous.

[depressant]

That's right, Oleg Skvortsov!
It turned out that before the announcement of self-isolation, there were 40 homeless people in Moscow alone. Various funds were engaged in them. The list is easy to find on the Internet. All these organizations were sponsored by someone, but not enough. Therefore, some foundations found day jobs for healthy homeless people, due to which not only workers, but also old and sick homeless people were fed. Now there is no work, sponsorship has died out. Conventionally "Moscow" homeless people began to crawl across the region. The paradox is that they were replaced by thousands of homeless people from all over the country. These are unfortunate people, knocked out of real life by the horror of capitalism. They will tell me now that there were also homeless people in the USSR. However, the normalization of the homeless in the Union was a matter of the desire of the person himself, not of political conditions. Everything could be fixed.
In the winter of 92-93, I happened to see how, from the lawns of the southern city, the policemen packed in black bags the homeless Russian people who died from cold and hunger.
It’s hard to remember so far.

[bober1982]

Quote: depressant

The paradox is that thousands of homeless people from all over the country came to replace them in Moscow.

This can be told from the stage, scream!

[Andrey VOV]

City name

[depressant]

This city is Sochi. It was surprisingly cold winter. For a month there were frosts, alternating with icy showers. There were no snow blowers in the city. On the roads formed terrible high ice with deep ruts. I was wearing a thin autumn coat, which my mother brought across the border ...
Colleague, do not demand from me such more. Please do not return me to my personal memories. Otherwise, I will get sick again.

[icelord]

Ooty ways do not need tenderness, the female sex is not an indulgence

[depressant]

And the male is not an indulgence of heartlessness, is it?))
And "uchi-paths" don't really apply to me. When necessary, I can be very tough. This is on the one hand. On the other hand, I answered - not for you. But I am not mad at you, dear colleague)) And on the third, I really still experience the consequences of a serious illness and am afraid of a recurrence of the attack. Therefore, I carefully avoid memories. I have no good ones. I wish you health and all the best! May all your memories be only happy! )))

[Galleon]

Quote: EvilLion

and in the summer, even in besieged Leningrad, they did not die of hunger

I’ve specifically looked at mortality in besieged Leningrad for the months of 1942:
June - 33716 people
July - 17729 people
August - 8967 people.
Aren't you ashamed to lie? Or for you these people do not count ??

[BREAKTHROUGH READY]

A degenerative planned economy destroyed everything that it could reach.
And okay, in the industry it was a rampant bungling, but when the "plan" got to vital areas, a real disaster immediately began.
First in the USSR, then history was completely repeated in China, then Korea and all other representatives of the "socialist paradise".

[Nonna]

And you see, got rich at the breakthrough capitalist offshore kudrinomika?

[BREAKTHROUGH READY]

I didn’t deserve and didn’t earn any money, but I live well according to my work and I don’t feed parasites, so I don’t complain.
The Russian people have never lived as good as under the “offshore curdinomics”, you would better say thanks to our talented sinfin and treasurer, this is his merit.

[Krasnoyarsk]

= The Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks and the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR instruct the regional, regional executive committee and PP of the OGPU of the North Caucasus to prevent the mass exodus of peasants from the North Caucasus to other territories and to enter their territory from Ukraine. The second one. The Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks and the Council of People's Commissars instruct the Central Committee of the Communist Party (Bolsheviks) U, Ukrsovnarkom, Balitsky, and Redens to prevent the mass exodus of peasants from Ukraine to other regions and entry into the region from the North Caucasus. The third. The Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks and the Council of People's Commissars prescribe the PP of the OGPU of the Moscow Region, Central Black Sea District, Western Region, Belarus, Lower Volga to arrest the "peasants" of Ukraine and the North Caucasus who have made their way north and, after the counter-revolutionary elements have been taken away, to place the rest in their places of residence . =

Pay attention to the last words of the quote - = put the rest into residence =
And now the following quote from Shpakovsky libel -

= Archival documents examined by modern historians reveal not only the scale of the tragedy, but also its causes. The following tasks were solved by extraordinary methods: to destroy the small proprietors, to forcibly collectivize agriculture and push the peasants out of the village in order to get an army of workers for the accelerated industrialization of the country. =

Ph.D. Shpakovsky, the above excerpts from the documents, despite the obvious contradictions, do not cause any bewilderment. Why? Because he is motivated not by the "itch" of the researcher, but by caveman anti-Sovietism.
Shpakovsky cited a list of people who "opened our eyes" on the theme of the famine of 32-33 to support himself. The list even includes the "famous" Conquist, the founder of the myth of the Holodomor.
I draw your attention - MYTH is about HUNGERHOUSE, the TRUTH is about HUNGER 32-33g.
A true historian who wants to give his readers as much information as possible on a given topic will give a list of scholars of this tragedy who have a different point of view on the causes and consequences of hunger. And this is E.Yu. Spitsyn, Yu.N. Zhukov Doctor of Historical Sciences, A. Fursov Ph.D., A.V. Pyzhikov Doctor of History, N.N. Platoshkin, Doctor of Historical Sciences, A. Wasserman, E. Prudnikova. The list goes on.
Yes, E. Prudnikova is not a historian, but she thoroughly studied the topic of hunger, its causes and consequences, and published a book in collaboration with I. Chigirin "The Mythology of the Holodomor".

Here is another interesting quote -
= Among part of the collective farmers, anti-collective farm sentiments are noted, the tendency to leave the collective farm and leave for cities and industrial centers has intensified. =
How is that? According to Shpakovsky of all stripes and ranks, the peasants could not go anywhere because they did not have passports! Those. during the famine, trends only intensified, and did not appear. then the peasants went to the cities before the famine. But what about the lack of passports?

Another quote -
= the poor Mozunin said: “We came here for 300 miles, in our area a terrible famine. In 1933, we had a crop failure, but the grain procurements were fully recovered from us. In the fall, we ate one straw, birch sawdust and different grass. =
And how does "beggar Mozunin" know about the quantitative indicator of grain procurements for "we"? Is he the chairman of the collective farm?
Someone seriously thinks that the NKVD commissioner for "here", interrogating Mizunin, did not ask - where is it - "here"? Village? A collective farm ?. The Commissioner in his memo would certainly indicate both the village and the collective farm (commune)
So!!! Fanfare !!! "ate straw and birch sawdust"! Believe it or not, these words never break a tear. I'm trying to imagine how Shpakovsky eats straw and sawdust.
And not a single peasant would say that they ate "different herbs." He would say: - "nettles, quinoa, sorrel."
Let's leave emotions aside. Let's move on to logic.
Does someone seriously consider the Soviet leadership to be maniacs and bloodsuckers? Someone seriously considers them fools who do not understand what and how?
Someone seriously thinks that Stalin deliberately "cut the hen" that lays GOLDEN eggs? The very eggs for which he bought entire factories (machines, equipment), that is, he carried out industrialization.
But Shpakovsky did not mention a word that Sov. The government was frantically looking for a seller of wheat. The West and the USA refused to sell wheat even for gold. Do not tell me why? Only Persia and Australia sold.
Shpakovsky he is such a Shpakovsky.
Pi.C. The Duma is a political body. Therefore, her "Statement ..." is a political statement. For that particular political moment. There would have been another moment, there would have been another statement.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

Ph.D. Shpakovsky quoted excerpts from documents, despite the obvious Contradictions, do not cause any bewilderment. Why? Because he is motivated not by the "itch" of the researcher, but by caveman anti-Sovietism.

Because they are NOT.

They arose only in cave anti-anti-advisers .

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

A true historian who wants to give his readers as much information as possible on a given topic will give a list of scholars of this tragedy who have a different point of view on the causes and consequences of hunger. And this is E.Yu. Spitsyn, Yu.N. Zhukov Doctor of Historical Sciences, A. Fursov Ph.D., A.V. Pyzhikov Doctor of History, N.N. Platoshkin, Doctor of Historical Sciences, A. Wasserman, E. Prudnikova. The list goes on.
Yes, E. Prudnikova is not a historian, but she thoroughly studied the topic of hunger, its causes and consequences, and published a book in collaboration with I. Chigirin "The Mythology of the Holodomor".

Leave these marginals and imagine OFFICIAL SOVIET DATA about victims and famine 33 g - from Central Committee vkpbeee, SNK, owls "SCIENTISTS, politicians, leaders of the country-monographs, radio, newspapers, books, works-AT THE TABLE!

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

Does someone seriously consider the Soviet leadership to be maniacs and bloodsuckers? Someone seriously considers them fools who do not understand what and how?

Not maniacs, but soulless inept inept false ignoramuses who did not understand what their adventures would lead to and for a long time did not understand what was happening. What is the statement: Harvest of 1932 ..... not worse than 1931
The mountain leaders did not know that there was really little bread and tried to collect what was not in reality

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

Someone seriously believes that Stalin deliberately "cut the hen" that lays GOLDEN eggs?

it was believed that the chicken will not decrease, will increase (still give birth)

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

But Shpakovsky did not mention a word
that Sov. The government was frantically looking for a seller of wheat. The West and the USA refused to sell wheat even for gold. Do not tell me why? Only Persia and Australia sold.

it is convulsive was selling until April 1933 (millions have already died) grain, oil, etc.

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

Pi.C. The Duma is a political body. Therefore, her "Statement ..." is a political statement. For that particular political moment. There would have been another moment, there would have been another statement.

"CORRECT statements by" non-political " leaders of the USSR with "correct " in numbersAT THE TABLE-from Stalin, Khrushchev, Andropov, etc.

Stop ... "false" "speculations!"


Your comrades did not leave you documents. ?

[Krasnoyarsk]

[quote = Olgovich] Because there are NO. [/ quote]
[quote = Krasnoyarsk] to put the rest in the place of residence. [/ quote]
and push the peasants out of the village in order to get an army of workers for the accelerated industrialization of the country. = [/ quote]
Olgovich, here are two quotes in which you and Shpakovsky do not see contradictions.
[quote = Olgovich]
Leave these marginals (Or maybe you and Shpakovsky are marginals? Didn’t come such a thought head?) and submit your OFFICIAL SOVIET DATA about victims and famine - from the Central Committee of the VKPBEE, SNK, owls "SCIENTISTS, politicians, leaders of the country - monographs, radio, newspapers, books, works-ON THE TABLE! [/ quote]
Present data? But will it help you? Sure - no.
[quote = Olgovich] false ignoramuses, [/ quote]
Of course, you have a wise truthfulness.
[quote = Olgovich] it was believed that he would not go away from the chicken, it would increase [/ quote]
will increase in 18 years, and they are needed tomorrow
[quote = Olgovich] it frantically sold until April 1933 (millions have already died) grain, oil, etc. [/ quote]
Read Rich's posts, he gave data on grain export there.
At the same time, the one who has the brains understands that deliveries abroad of any product are made under contracts, and sanctions exist for violation of contractual obligations. Therefore, the Soviet government annulled many contracts for the supply of grain, and where it could not, it was forced to fulfill them. Well, to whom am I?

[Olgovich]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

Olgovich, here are two quotes in which you and Shpakovsky do not see contradictions.

Once again, there are NO contradictions: general policy around the country and for a long period, to provide the city with workers, a PRIVATE situation in the event of hunger-RETURN refugees from hunger-to their place of residence.

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

Leave these marginals (Or maybe you and Shpakovsky are marginals? Didn’t such a thought come to mind?)

There are many tens of millions of us, unlike the senile Zhukov, who carries delirium about fists wandering back and forth. the fat hog Spitsin and the stupid graphomaniac Prudnikova. leading the "battle" for bread where NORMAL people just work.

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

Present data? But will it help you? Sure - no.

It is up to you to submit them CARRYING SOVIET official estimates.

You introduce them AT THE TABLE- honest, mostly direct, unpleasant assessments disaster from your party! And we will figure it out.

But they are NOT, for the cowardly mountain leaders were afraid of responsibility that they would be swept away with a dirty broom

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

Of course, you have a wise truthfulness.

Truth - you're scared like hell incense!

Because- fear of responsibility for the deed

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

will increase in 18 years, and they are needed tomorrow

So let them die ... millions? Who needs? Were these millions of dead dead? They were asked?

You can not / do not know, DO NOT torment!
Without these miracles, the country existed and rapidly growing in the population and territory of a thousand years!
After your worries, DIED and decreased by THREE!

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

Read Rich's posts, he gave data on grain export there.

And?

ONCE AGAIN: MILLIONS have already died, and the country ... continued to drive bread for .... export right up to ... APRIL of the month!

Got it, no?

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

At the same time, the one who has the brains understands that deliveries abroad of any product are made under contracts, and sanctions exist for violation of contractual obligations. Therefore, the Soviet government annulled many contracts for the supply of grain, and where it could not, it was forced to fulfill them.

And who ... forced them? With a gun, huh?

Imagine, by the way, the evidence of your LIES about sanctions for undelivered bread.

And, yes, why are you silent: WHY are your party members did not request help from the world in the face of this worst disaster in the history of the world ?!

What right did they have to deprive tens of millions of people of this help and who did not give it to them?

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Olgovich

Once again, there are NO contradictions: the general policy for the country and for a long period is to provide workers with cities, a PRIVATE situation in case of starvation is RETURN of refugees from starvation to their place of residence.

Isn't the whole made up of particulars?
Once again for the particularly clever - For objective reasons, an industrialization program was adopted. For its implementation, it was necessary to acquire entire factories (equipment) abroad. As you know, your spiritual brethren have fused most of the gold of RI abroad. Without gold and foreign exchange reserves, the Bolsheviks were forced to sell the only goods in demand, for which it was really possible to get currency - wheat. In order for the constructed factories to work, hundreds of thousands of new workers were needed. Where to get them? That's right - in the village. But, in your logic, the Bolsheviks are organizing a famine, starving millions of villagers and leaving the factories built without workers. As a result, their industrialization plan failed. Olgovich, are you all right with your head? I have long noticed that - no.

Quote: Olgovich

There are many tens of millions of us

Did you count it yourself? Or with Shpakovsky?

Quote: Olgovich

And we will figure it out.

You? Are you capable of this?

Quote: Olgovich

Truth - you're scared like hell incense!

Quote: Olgovich

After your worries, DIED and decreased by THREE!

No, it is precisely through your efforts that space in failure, aircraft construction in failure, shipbuilding in failure, workers work 12 hours per shift, education in failure, health care in failure. You failed everything, despite the fact that you have been in power for 30 years. In addition to the oil and gas industry. And this is only because funds are needed to maintain power, otherwise you would have failed.

Quote: Olgovich

And who ... forced them? With a gun, huh?

You do not understand, you are one of the "masters of the word" - gave the word, took the word.
But there is not a word, there is an agreement. Do you have any idea what this is?
I am sure - no, based on your "logic".
I consider further argument pointless. He who does not know how to sit cannot stand. So, lie down, Olgovich, lie down.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

Isn't the whole made up of particulars?

AGAIN, didn't get it?

Once again: ALWAYS, throughout the country-peasants in the city.

IN THIS month, only for THIS area-return starving-back

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

For its implementation, it was necessary to acquire entire factories (equipment) abroad. As you know, your spiritual brethren have fused most of the gold of RI abroad.

Yours -... from which side to this gold and to Russia?

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

For objective reasons, an industrialization program was adopted.

It was not necessary to de-industrialize a country that was successfully industrialized before you

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

Having no gold and foreign exchange reserves, the Bolsheviks were forced to sell ebest-selling single productfor which it was really possible to get a currency - wheat.

You are extremely ignorant - wheat accounted for only 20-30% of foreign exchange earnings, the main commodity is LES, etc.

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

In order for the constructed factories to work, hundreds of thousands of new workers were needed. Where to get them? That's right - in the village.

Are people a thing to "take" them?
In a NORMAL society they are ATTRACTED.

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

But, in your logic, the Bolsheviks are organizing a famine, starving millions of villagers and leaving the factories built without workers.

NOBODY specially I did not like hunger, WHEN will it come?
This is the result of stupidity, stupidity, ignorance, adventurism, incompetence, soullessness and cruelty

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

and leave the built factories without workers. As a result, their industrialization plan failed

The excess rural population before the Thief was about FORTY million (ten you killed in the Civil War, then dispossessed, etc., but still millions), so the factories were not left without workers. ignoramus!

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

Olgovich, are you all right with your head? I have long noticed that - no.

patients always consider themselves ... the most healthy-headed. Think about it!

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

Did you count it yourself? Or with Shpakovsky?

The country counted

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

You? Are you capable of this?

Is that .... your business?

It is up to you to submit them CARRYING SOVIET official estimates.

At the TABLE, honest, mostly direct, unpleasant assessments of the disaster from your party, liar!

What, dumb, huh? ABOUT THE SCOTTLE There are Central Committee resolutions, but MILLIONS of starving people, lack of leisure time to write?

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

No, it is precisely through your efforts that space in failure, aircraft construction in failure, shipbuilding in failure, workers work 12 hours per shift, education in failure, health care in failure. You failed everything, despite the fact that you have been in power for 30 years. In addition to the oil and gas industry. And this is only because funds are needed to maintain power, otherwise you would have failed.

Namely, that YES: the Russian Cross was built by the Vorovtsy, they cut Russia to the borders of the 17th century, they too.

These are the FACTS.

Yours first places in the world :

-absol consumption and ghost alcoholism
-abortion-your RECORD of 5,3 million per year, only recently beaten and a half billion China. in total, you killed, thus, about 200 million potential Russians
rape
-killing
suicide
- by divorce, etc.

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

You do not understand, you are one of the "masters of the word" - gave the word, took the word.
But there is not a word, there is an agreement. Do you have any idea what this is?

The director knows something

So provide evidence of your lies, except for idle chatter? Weak again?
Shame ...

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

I consider further argument pointless. He who does not know how to sit cannot stand. So, lie down, Olgovich, lie down.

you are THIRD time avoiding the answer to the SIMPLE question:

WHY did your party-bearers not ask for help from the world in the face of this worst disaster in the history of the world ?!

What right did they have to deprive tens of millions of people of the right to receive this help and who gave it to them?

Shame ....

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Olgovich

Yours -... from which side to this gold and to Russia?

1. This gold is mined by the hands of the peoples of RI.
2. To us in the army, during the civil war, 5 million people signed up.
To YOU ​​- 200 000. Do you catch the difference?
So, 5 million has more reason to qualify for RI gold.

Quote: Olgovich

IN THIS month, only for THIS area-return starving-back

Yes, yes, it is this particular region. and this month lived according to separate laws. True, they did not realize that it was Olgovich who granted them such a privilege - to live according to separate laws.

Quote: Olgovich

It was not necessary to de-industrialize a country that was successfully industrialized before you

I’ve been telling you the same thing in the 90s, but you didn’t obey, parasites.
I'm leaving. you can continue to face you in the mud, but you have to go.

[icelord]

Well, who needs your space? I want to eat, a good apartment, a car, clothes

[Courier]

There was no hunger and could not be.
Neither dispossession, nor collectivization, nor surplus-appropriation, nor forced relocation can not cause hunger.

[Looking for]

Do not believe a single edition !!!!. Dedicated to the history of the USSR. published after 1990. Also, you should not believe the Shpakovsky sample of 1990-2020. How can you believe the Renegade. ???

[Pane Kohanku]

How can one believe a Renegade. ???

I have this word, for some reason, associated with the classic ...
And who does not honor quotes,
he is a renegade
To that on a butt we will stick datszybao!
Who will argue with Mao
that will be repulsed
His wife along with friend Lin Biao. (V.S. Vysotsky)

Most of all in this picture, the leader of the group (puff with a mouthpiece), who took a position behind the back of an aggressive girl, captivates ... and yes, the ideological fraud of the then Chinese society was expressed in the Chinese-initiated conflict on Damansky!

[Engineer]

Vyacheslav Shpakovsky once again threw a stone into the sleepy Stalinist swamp of Topvar.
This time around, the stone’s caliber is especially decent.
It often seems to me that the author’s articles are a little incomplete in terms of conclusions and analytics. And now, when assessing the number of victims, it was necessary to dwell a little on the structure of the dead (exhaustion, increased infant mortality, outbreaks of diseases affecting weakened organisms) and assessment methods. Although this would greatly extend the article.
Nevertheless, the main thing has been done.
By the way, I came to an unexpected conclusion.
Shpakovsky is the only one of the authors of VO who systematically opposes the Topwar mainstream, right through to the pro-Soviet and pro-Stalinist. It turns out that the whole discourse is conducted mainly around his articles.
Shpakovsky is now the only one at VO who conducts educational work in his specialization, releasing relevant historical articles, some of which can be marked as "for dummies", and in a positive, cognitive sense
It turns out that Mr. Shpakovsky is currently the most valuable author for the resource ????

So far, few typical mantras from opponents:
#Featured libera
# anti-adviser is always Russophobe
# prisarietheumyralimillion

Well, when after 30 days the answer comes from the FSB archive

I wish all of us to live to these days

[Andrey VOV]

Yeah, the best shot, knowing his biography ....

[Engineer]

You mix personality and professional activities. In most cases, this leads to erroneous conclusions.
Samsonov, Skomorokhov, Staver, Kharaluzhny can be heroes, wonderful family fathers, volunteers, etc.
Only their articles from this will not become better and more valuable for the resource. This is my opinion

[Andrey VOV]

I don’t mix personality, I don’t have a habit of trusting people. They change their views in life, adjusting to the current moment and have a sharp sense of smell.

[Engineer]

Why trust someone?
There is an article. There is a statement of the problem. There are arguments. Next came the reader’s analysis — a purely technical process.

[Andrey VOV]

Shpakovsky has the best articles, which are about models that are different, you can immediately see that this is from his heart and he is well versed in this, the rest ... well, not his, not his, just like interesting articles about Skomorokhov's technique, but his "analytics" .... so ... just everyone should do their own thing, then even a single person will have order

[A.TOR]

I read comments and feel such animal hatred of those present for each other's points of view on the history of the country, which is somehow uncomfortable.
Even scary.
If history causes such an intensity, then what about today?
Oholonite, friends, you live in the same country! If you decide to dispute some "well-known facts", then be more correct to each other! Calm down! Yes, it was a terrible, in some ways terrible time, but you cannot, you cannot discuss it with such a clearly visible desire to “strangle” your opponent! Make arguments, refer to documents, but control yourself!
especially surprising is the position of the defenders of "Soviet Power - it does not need SUCH protection. There was a lot of bad, there was a lot of good.
Yes, the price of good is great and bloody, but it's still history

[bober1982]

Quote: A.TOR

You live in one country!

Not quite so, a significant% of respected commentators live abroad.

[A.TOR]

Yes, but those who participate in hot battles, they want to admit it, or not, spiritually here.

[depressant]

I’m wondering who is here from abroad? I am from the bear corner of Moscow Region. Krasnoyarsk - from Krasnoyarsk. The rest, as far as I understood from other discussions, are also from Russia. Well, maybe someone from Belarus, but these are native to us. The heat is not due to our location, but because our familiar, understandable world collapsed in a couple of months. Bad or good, but understandable. We knew how to live in it. But we don’t know how to live in a new one. And his contours have not yet been outlined. The future is dark. People are confused, nervous. In such cases, you always want to blame someone. We need to stick together, colleagues.

[bober1982]

Quote: depressant

The future is dark. People are confused, nervous.

The future does not like when they look into it, why is it nervous.
For every taste, to whom it suits - ...... the day has passed and Thank God .... what will happen, what will happen, ..... and there will be a holiday on our street, ..... what should be, that cannot be avoided ..... there is no happiness in life, etc.

[depressant]

Millions of us shape the future - each with its own actions, weak, strong. Or inaction. The addition of partial vectors gives a general direction. Does nothing depend on us? You're on the forum, aren't you? )))

[Andrey VOV]

And what, there are still "bear corners" in the Moscow region?

[depressant]

There are even deaf wilds that only stalkers roam in search of the past.

[Andrey VOV]

Any Shatura, Jaws or Taldom?

[depressant]

And you look at the Moscow region on a Google map. There are many amazing large structures to which there are no roads. Probably, there were roads once, but now they are overgrown with forest. And in the videos of stalkers there are abandoned military units, columns of rusty military equipment, rest homes and entire factories, where most of the equipment has been preserved. There are even astronomical complexes. But the main thing is a giant abandoned hangar. Inside - two "Buran", and further away - a white rocket, soaring up several floors. And the inscription on it is "Federation". And all this is surrounded by wall-to-wall, thoroughly rusted staircases, which are scary to step on, and majestic shuttles and a rocket are strewn with rust. And the floor is littered with rubbish. The Motherland appears through the jungle of oblivion.

[Andrey VOV]

And what to watch Google ... two concrete rings around Moscow, it was all a missile shield ... and, accordingly, it was stuffed with everyone and everything .... 30 km from Kashira to the south of the antenna fields and the arms of the "Caucasus" system abandoned after the escape of one from the developers ... and so on and so on ...))))))

[BAI]

A little bit about the causes of hunger.
Is Stalin also to blame for the invasion of rodents and "black mold" (destruction of 30% of the harvested crop) and drought? He personally slaughtered the oxen in Ukraine (so that there was nothing to plow)?

[BAI]

And the numbers ... Everything needs to be treated critically, you can’t blindly believe anyone. How, after 90 years, to distinguish death from hunger from death due to illness. After all, they all fall into one pile, especially from the point of view of the demographic pit. It is indecent to give a joke here, but you have to:
Doctor - Nurse, write "Death by covid19".
The nurse is a Doctor, but the corpse has 5 stab wounds and 2 gunshot wounds that are not compatible with life.
Doctor - Okay, write "Death from covid19, aggravated by concomitant diseases."
As you know, Russia is a country with an unpredictable history. And if Ukraine knows Yushchenko’s direct indication (when he was president) about the number of victims, then why are the estimates in the Russian Federation not subject to political conditions?
Only one thing can be reliably stated - there was a famine. Not only in Ukraine, but also in other territories of the USSR. Everything else is demagogic upholding of the point of view on which you are sitting the fifth point.

[parusnik]

He personally scored oxen in Ukraine for meat (so there was nothing to plow)?

... Wow ... Bulls and bulls were massively slaughtered: in Ukraine, the Kuban, Rostov Region and other Chernozem regions .. Protest against collective farms? One thing ... but they came to my great-grandfather from the village council, where are you from? .. They said: you won’t let the cattle under the knife, we’ll let the red rooster ... Great-grandfather, I didn’t cut the cattle, nor any cattle ... And then there’s the grandfather from the courses the red directors returned ... Something happened with the red cock .. According to my grandmother .. And the question is that this was someone planned action or popular madness ...?

[vladimirvn]

Events took place in the North Caucasus. Father told. We found shoes in a landfill and cooked it; there was nothing to eat. He and his little brother were thrown into an orphanage, and then they came to pick up, but there is no small one. Either adopted by someone, or died. Father spent all his life searching for him, but he never found him. The family was repressed. But his father respected Stalin and spoke very negatively about Khrushchev.

[vladcub]

The hunger of the 30s was 1000%, but for some reason this topic was hushed up for us. Therefore, in the 90s there were people who started to create political capital in the famine: Yushchenko, Poroshenko and drg
What V. Oh, cites data about the poor, though in childhood I heard adults talking.
My grandfather had a lot of swans in the garden and I somehow picked up and pulled out, and my grandfather ripped me off.

[Fishery]

a couple of times I dug pots and bottles with the remains of grain, apparently hid (for sowing or from hunger

[Alexander Greene]

The Holodomor is a massive falsification. Especially in Ukraine. In the Sumy region, for example, in the village of Andriyashivka, half a thousand now living local residents were recorded ... in the book of memory of the victims of the Holodomor of 1932-1933.

[Undecim]

Green, when you are profitable, you change your shoes in a jump. Firstly, in the village there are less than a hundred inhabitants in total. Secondly, this case, when a local official, not knowing that the list will be published so as not to bother, sent the voter lists, he was immediately discovered and made public. The book was republished.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Undecim

The book was republished.

In the Sumy region, there was a scandal: in the village of Andriyashivka, half a thousand now living local residents were written down ... in the book of memory of the victims of the Holodomor of 1932-1933.
This fact was discovered by the village librarian - Nadezhda Ovcharenko. It was she who first came across the Book of Memory of the Victims of the Holodomor of the Sumy Region. The librarian says that data on the victims of the Holodomor was collected by the whole village, and for almost a year, but she did not find this data in the book, but she saw living fellow villagers. “After the trick was discovered, the village head immediately took the book,” she says.
Locals are confident that the incident hastened the death of a 48-year-old man. "He was seriously ill, and then he found himself on the list of the dead. I think this hastened his death," Zinaida Yakovlevna believes.
“I, my husband and our daughter got into the book,” Lyubov Poznyak, a resident of Andriyashivka, told Segodnya. “And in the church they served a panikhida for people who were still alive! a young official from the district administration. "
As explained in the Romensky district administration, she was instructed to prepare lists of victims of hunger, and for some reason she submitted voter lists. The district authorities reported that the official was fired, the lists were corrected. The entire circulation - three thousand - is confiscated, but nobody is going to retype the book, there is no money, thirty pages with the names of the living will be torn out and the names of the dead will simply be pasted in their place.
https://www.segodnya.ua/ukraine/v-cpicok-zhertv-holodomora-zapicali-poltycjachi-zhivykh-izbiratelej-169741.html

PS And this is just one of endless falsifications.

[Undecim]

Green, you will confirm your "endless" references to facts. I noticed one of your peculiarities - as soon as you do not have an answer that suits you, you freeze and move the arrows. I wrote to you in Russian, there are a hundred inhabitants in the village for twenty years, but again you are talking about your own, about half a thousand. That is, you are the same forger.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Undecim

You will confirm your "endless" links to facts.

My answer was lost somewhere. I repeat.
Dear, do not look for fleas where they do not exist, and try to think at least a little before blaming anyone for anything.
I already wrote to you that I believe the author of the note more than you.
I explain.
Wikipedia He writes that the population of Andriyashevka itself according to the 2001 census was 2089 people. Books of "memory" were compiled under Yushchenko, 16 years ago. The number of 500 voters, this is a fourth of the inhabitants, for such a number of villagers is quite real.
The fact that now there are 100 people left is also quite real, because Ukrainian village is now being intensively destroyed.
But turn on your brains. Andriyashevka (Romensky district, Sumy region, Ukraine). It is the administrative center of the Andriyashevsky village council, which, in addition, includes the villages of Gudymy, Lutsenko, Melniki, Novitskoye and Krinichki.
And since elections are held there, then there are lists of all voters. Really, in them 500 people will not be typed?

[Undecim]

Yes, typed, Green, typed. However, you were broadcasting about endless falsifications. In addition to this, turn your brains on and give more examples.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Undecim

Yes, typed, Green, typed. However, you were broadcasting about endless falsifications. In addition to this, turn your brains on and give more examples.

Are you still not convinced of falsifications? Especially for the lazy:

1. For example, the "Book of memory of the victims of the Holodomor" of Zaporizhzhya region:
City Berdyansk:
Mileshko Alexander, 20 years old, working, Russian, date of death - 18.12.1932/XNUMX/XNUMX, cause of death - alcohol poisoning
Shushlov Vladimir, 49 years old, date of death - 18.03.1933/XNUMX/XNUMX, asphyxia, acute alcohol poisoning
Vorobyova Marina, 7 years old, from a family of workers, date of death - 09.10.1933/XNUMX/XNUMX, crushed by a bus
Nechipurenko Aleksey, 13 years old, from a working class family, Russian, date of death - 03.09.1933/XNUMX/XNUMX, cerebral hemorrhage from a bus blow
City of Zaporozhye:
Ryabtsev Vasily Ivanovich, 45 years old, working, Russian, date of death - 23.11.1932/XNUMX/XNUMX, concussion, alcohol depression
Zinovievsky Village Council:
Zheleshkov Mikhail, 25 years old, worker, Ukrainian, date of death - 08.11.1933/XNUMX/XNUMX, killed by a motor vehicle
Vasilievsky Village Council:
Myagky Pavel Pavlovich, 6 years old, from a family of the one-man individual, Ukrainian, date of death - 09.08.1933/XNUMX/XNUMX, got into a car
Belogoryevsk village council:
Konovalenko Luka Pavlovich, 34 years old, collective farmer, Ukrainian, date of death - 16.06.1933/XNUMX/XNUMX, killed by lightning.

2. The lion's share of “victims of the Holodomor”, of course, was given by the most populated industrial eastern regions. Especially a lot of them were among the miners. Absolutely all deaths from injuries sustained in the production of Donbass or in mines are also attributed by the compilers of the “Book of Memory” to the results of the famine. In the Luhansk region, for example, the miners Miron Volikh, Kostya Kolin, Vasily Lysenko, Fedor Miroshnik, V. Moroz, Ivan Paliyanko, each of whom stated: “died in a mine,” are classified as “victims of the Holodomor”.

3. The same picture in the "Book of memory" of Odessa region. Here is an extract from the death certificate of 70-year-old Philip Karpovsky from the city of Balt: "senile senility, chronic alcoholism." 40-year-old Odessa resident Nikolai Melnichenko died from "alcohol poisoning." A collective farmer from Balta, Fedor Astratonov, was killed by a bull on July 26, 1932 - how can this be considered death from hunger ?! Winemaker Moshe Roisenberg from the same city in August 1932 was killed by bandits. 24-year-old resident of the Big Fountain Viktor Zabava died under a tram, and a 40-year-old resident of the village of Nerubayskoye Belousov Season - under a train.

Here, the brains do not even need to be included.

[Undecim]

Here, the brains do not even need to be included.
We must, Green, we must. If you included them, you would know that the "Book of Memory" quoted by you includes ALL deaths recorded in the books of the registry offices in 1932-1933. The compilers specifically report this. Therefore, out of the 33805 entries in the book, 526 people directly died from hunger. However, bell-ringers like you all call about falsification.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Undecim

However, ringleaders like you all call for fraud.

No dear, people like you are calling. Already 7-10 million have been called. Only under the pressure of revelations, the numbers began to gradually decrease. .

PS When the working people will have power, he will certainly deal with these falsifications.

[Undecim]

Green, ten million have been called the same as you, only they have another idea in service.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Undecim

Green, ten million have been called the same as you, only they have another idea in service.

Do not transfer from a sick head to a healthy one.

[Undecim]

All Green, we will say goodbye. Lecture to young Marxists as long as their parents allow it. Until we meet again.

[Korsar4]

I will say one thing. From my grandfather at one time I heard a saying: "Eat water, drink water." This does not happen by chance.

[ser56]

"Until proven otherwise, you should rely on the numbers it provides."
author idealist - in the heat of fervor, red propagandists deny even direct quotes from the VIL

[DED_peer_DED]

"Tovagischi scientists, associate professors with candidates, give up your experiments, get lost and lost ..."
Tomorrow will be the sale of people to each other.
End of the world.
Can't you see?
Satan is already on the surface of the earth. Therefore, all these races are arranged.
Otherwise, why?

[ee2100]

The author is in his element. Made a stuffing in and from the side watching the passions in the comments. The members of Shpakovsky's circle were somehow sluggishly snapping, realizing that the truth about the famine of the 30s is information not only from "correct" historians. The set of arguments refuting the so-called Holodomor is presented here in full. Everyone agreed that there was famine. Have people died? Yes, but how much really we are unlikely to find out. As always, everyone remained unconvinced. Once again I was convinced that reading comments is much more interesting than some articles.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Undecim

Green, you will confirm your "endless" references to facts. I noticed one of your peculiarities - as soon as you do not have an answer that suits you, you freeze and move the arrows. I wrote to you in Russian, there are a hundred inhabitants in the village for twenty years, but again you are talking about your own, about half a thousand. That is, you are the same forger.

You know, for some reason I believe in the author of the article cited by me more than you.

[icelord]

believe not believe, there is official information, that's it

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Icelord

believe not believe, there is official information, that's it

Really, the official authorities have never deceived you with their official information?

[nemez]

And it’s not really said that the RSFSR lost 800-900 tons, KSSR-200-300 tons, and Ukraine, having lost the same 300 tons, speaks of millions, mainly of the Russian-speaking population. The author is minus.

[beeper]

Thank you, dear Vyacheslav Olegovich Shpakovsky, for the word of Pravda!
The same (about the barriers of the OGPU-NKVD, "edible" straw, roots of reeds and grass, ruthless "Komsomol members" and "authorized" with revolvers, despite the tears of mothers with many children, who beat up even the last grain and corn cobs with beatings, leaving nothing for food, about villages that have died out from hunger and "loading with a pitchfork onto carts" the bodies of all deceased children and educators of the district orphanage, about "deprivation of the right to vote", as a "black mark" of death, and much more ...) relatives and friends (the Ukrainian South-East), who only miraculously survived this and others (after the civil war, in the 1919-20s and the post-war, at the end of the 40s) "hunger strikes (as our people called it, and not in a strange way , in Amerodiasporyan - "famine"!) ".
One of our relatives, my grandmother's cousin, in despair that there was nothing to feed and the exhausted children would die, took them to the station and secretly put her two young sons on a freight train going towards Russia (later, after the Great Patriotic War, she I learned that one of her sons then, at the age of 33, survived, but died at the front ...).
ALL local villagers died and suffered from the famine of the 30s, without distinction of nationality (in our area, in the historical Dik Pole-Novorossia, since tsarist times there were numerous German, Bulgarian, Serbian settlements, which were just as starving to death as the rest multinational local population!), and not only local Ukrainians (as the "Ukrainian" Galicians, who survived their "Holodomor" as part of the Commonwealth, like to tell us now!)!