Military Review

The Chinese transition to the 7,62x51 NATO caliber: "The 7,62x54 mm variant was created back in tsarist Russia"

69

China touched on the topic of improving the effectiveness of small arms weapons. In particular, we are talking about creating a CS-LR4 sniper rifle under a cartridge of 7,62x51 mm caliber. Ammunition, as you know, has a nomenclature of .308 Win or 7,62 × 51 NATO, which indicates the western origin of the concept of its caliber.


In China itself, it is noted that the production of cartridges of precisely this caliber has been established in the country. Causes are also called. So, in the military-thematic section of the Sohu portal, it is stated that the transition of the rifle from NORINCO in this case to a caliber of 7,62x51 mm is due to the fact that the "Soviet version" of 7,62x54 mm, used earlier, is "morally obsolete."

From the material about the Chinese transition to 7,62x51 mm:

The 7,62x54 mm variant was created back in tsarist Russia. Soviet gunsmiths also decided to take it as a basis. But today we can say that 7,62x54 mm R has relatively low ballistic characteristics.

In China, it is noted that small arms chambered for 7,62x54 mm will be discontinued, and existing ones will probably be transformed into 7,62 × 51 NATO ammunition.

Chinese TV:

At present, China launched the production of DFL3 bullets and their improved version of DFL3A for sniper weapons. These are bullets with a brass shell. There are options for using steel. In the first case, there may be a problem with the mass production of such bullets, since in China there are few copper mines, and copper itself is in demand in high-tech industries.

It is noted that the production in China of weapons for a caliber of 7,62 mm "marks the return to service of medium-caliber weapons and at the same time high practicality and efficiency."

Also added is the expansion in China of the niche of modular weapons - small arms under cartridges of several calibers.

Returning to the CS-LR4 rifle - its length is 1100 mm, magazine capacity - 5 rounds, type - manual reloading with a rotary shutter. It is noteworthy that there are no open sights on it. Installation of various optical sights is proposed.
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  1. Sky strike fighter
    Sky strike fighter 13 May 2020 12: 19 New
    +1
    China joins NATO? lolThe US arms market is being squeezed in broad daylight.
    1. novel66
      novel66 13 May 2020 12: 27 New
      +3
      well, at least not with us ..
      1. Sky strike fighter
        Sky strike fighter 13 May 2020 12: 42 New
        0
        We have already. The same MLRS Polonaise in Belarus and the A-200 in Azerbaijan.
        1. novel66
          novel66 13 May 2020 12: 50 New
          +4
          and now they have a positive!
          1. Sky strike fighter
            Sky strike fighter 13 May 2020 13: 09 New
            -1
            Quote: novel xnumx
            and now they have a positive!


            Yeah. Positive.
            Chinese media reported that China launched a missile strike on the Indian military. It is noted that these actions could cause full-scale hostilities.
            According to the source, the incident occurred on May 10. India, for unknown reasons, fired at the border guards of the PRC, to which Beijing decided to strike back. As a result of the conflict, about seven people were injured, and India lost an armored car.

            https://argumenti.ru/world/2020/05/665265
            1. novel66
              novel66 13 May 2020 13: 10 New
              +3
              something in that corner is restless, the Indians are stirring something ...
              1. Sky strike fighter
                Sky strike fighter 13 May 2020 13: 23 New
                -4
                Quote: novel xnumx
                something in that corner is restless, the Indians are stirring something ...

                Americans through the Indians muddied. wink
                1. novel66
                  novel66 13 May 2020 13: 33 New
                  +1
                  to receive the bracelets of the bracelets, if something, they don’t understand something?
                  1. Sky strike fighter
                    Sky strike fighter 13 May 2020 13: 50 New
                    +2
                    Quote: novel xnumx
                    to receive the bracelets of the bracelets, if something, they don’t understand something?

                    They think that the Americans will cover them. Like America with us. Ha ha laughing lol
                    1. novel66
                      novel66 13 May 2020 13: 54 New
                      +1
                      someone else's example will never teach anyone anything!
                      1. Sky strike fighter
                        Sky strike fighter 13 May 2020 13: 58 New
                        +1
                        Some of them and their examples, and their experience are never taught anything. Why wonder?
                      2. novel66
                        novel66 13 May 2020 13: 59 New
                        +1
                        Indian naivety, how much their Anglo-Saxons have - and all are not in the horse feed
        2. Polite Moose
          Polite Moose 13 May 2020 18: 31 New
          +2
          Quote: novel xnumx
          and now they have a positive!

          There would be much more positive if the author gently suggested at the end of the article that the transition to a new cartridge is also connected with simplification of logistics in supplying ammunition to the advanced airborne assault units of the PRC during their offensive military operations. wink
    2. Deck
      Deck 13 May 2020 12: 54 New
      0
      well, at least not with us


      We have weapons produced under .308 and ammunition, and is in service
      1. Kalmar
        Kalmar 13 May 2020 13: 26 New
        0
        Quote: Deck
        We have weapons produced under .308 and ammunition, and is in service

        And what do we have under .308 in service?
        1. Deck
          Deck 13 May 2020 13: 35 New
          +2
          In the army - a sniper rifle Steyr SSG-08. There are a lot of things in the FSB and SSpN
          1. Kalmar
            Kalmar 13 May 2020 13: 46 New
            +3
            Quote: Deck
            In the army - a sniper rifle Steyr SSG-08. There are a lot of things in the FSB and SSpN

            As far as I know, specifically SSG-08 was not adopted into service. Once upon a time, some of these rifles were purchased for the Airborne Troops under the guise of sports; what is happening to them now is not known.

            The FSB - those yes, according to rumors, are buying some foreign samples in small batches. But this is already so, on the little things.
            1. Deck
              Deck 13 May 2020 19: 34 New
              +2
              As far as I know, specifically SSG-08 was not adopted into service.


              Your knowledge is incomplete, not only accepted, but even enrolled in sniper schools.

              FSB - yes, it is rumored that they are buying some foreign samples in small quantities


              Not rumored - like the Sako TRG-22. Adopted.
              1. Kalmar
                Kalmar 13 May 2020 19: 41 New
                0
                Quote: Deck
                Your knowledge is incomplete, not only accepted, but even enrolled in sniper schools

                Received - yes, at that time - in the status of a sports weapon, as they wrote in the press. But what was accepted - there must be an order, the cartridge must have the GRAU index assigned and all that. None of this information came across.
                1. Deck
                  Deck 13 May 2020 19: 53 New
                  +1
                  I’m not writing about the information in the press. I will not list the documents here. If you want to check - try to buy or reissue in FRA
                  1. Kalmar
                    Kalmar 14 May 2020 08: 08 New
                    0
                    Quote: Deck
                    If you want to check - try to buy or reissue in FRA

                    Well, I do not know. Judging by the Hansa, SSG-08 is quite sold and bought (search in the section "buy and sell a rifle" for "SSG-08").
                    1. Deck
                      Deck 14 May 2020 08: 30 New
                      0
                      Judging by the hansa
                      ]

                      Source of knowledge?
                    2. Kalmar
                      Kalmar 14 May 2020 08: 47 New
                      0
                      Quote: Deck
                      Source of knowledge?

                      No, just a bulletin board where "forbidden" rifles for some reason are quite routinely sold and bought.
        2. Insurgent
          Insurgent 13 May 2020 13: 46 New
          +3
          The Chinese transition to the 7,62x51 NATO caliber: "The 7,62x54 mm variant was created back in tsarist Russia"

          7,62X54R, normal cartridge in terms of performance, significantly depending on the characteristics of the powder and the quality of manufacture of the cartridge.
          The only significant drawback in comparison with the NATO patron is the notorious, archaic, originally from the IXX century, the rim of the case bottom, "flange" ...
          1. Alexfly
            Alexfly 13 May 2020 17: 58 New
            0
            You are right, most likely only the financial component sits in this. Otherwise, the cartridge would have been improved and remade long ago ...
          2. Nikolaevich I
            Nikolaevich I 14 May 2020 05: 28 New
            +1
            Well, maybe, weighing 7,62x51mm and 7,62x54mm, it is worth remembering 12,7x99mm and 12,7x108mm? There is an opinion that in terms of kinetic energy (power) these cartridges are equal, "thanks" to the "specialness" of American gunpowder!
  • tanki-tanki
    tanki-tanki 13 May 2020 12: 22 New
    -6
    Thank you for the article. In China, a new rifle has appeared.
    1. The leader of the Redskins
      The leader of the Redskins 13 May 2020 12: 53 New
      -6
      Are you doing an experiment?
      I notice that you have almost all your publications - "thanks for the article." Are you hoping for the author's pluses to leave? Try to expand your vocabulary. There are enough windbags without you.
  • Shadow041
    Shadow041 13 May 2020 12: 22 New
    +4
    Yes, the cartridge is 7,62 by 54, with a rim outdated and causes a number of inconveniences, but the transition to the cartridge 7,62 by 51 will lead to a decrease in its power, since it is no longer possible to put a similar propellant charge into a shorter sleeve. It requires modernization of the cartridge 7,62 to 54, and not the transition to the short 51 sleeve
    1. Kalmar
      Kalmar 13 May 2020 12: 37 New
      +7
      Quote: Shadow041
      switching to cartridge 7,62 by 51 will lead to a decrease in its power, since a similar propellant charge can no longer be inserted into a shorter sleeve

      The difference in muzzle energy there is not so great, and it’s not just the case volume.

      Quote: Shadow041
      It requires modernization of the cartridge 7,62 to 54, and not the transition to the short 51 sleeve

      Perhaps the main motives are hidden here. The 7.62x54 needs to be modernized, while the 7.62x51 may already have quite suitable (by the standards of the Chinese military) performance - it remains only quietly to "borrow" it. Well, the export potential of weapons, of course, will be higher.
      1. Shadow041
        Shadow041 13 May 2020 14: 44 New
        +3
        The difference there when using the same gunpowder will be decent. For example, a PM pistol (police, army) using a 9 by 18 cartridge gives a bullet speed of 315 meters per second, breaking through a light bulletproof vest. The IZH-71 pistol (collectors, security guards) using a 9 by 17 cartridge gives a bullet speed of 280 meters per second and the bulletproof vest doesn’t pierce anymore ... Upgrading to a 7,62 by 54 cartridge needs to be pummeled, just give up the collar and follow his ass on the model cartridge 7,62 by 39, from SKS and AKM ... Bullets on domestic NATO cartridges are not inferior ... just a little refine the sleeve
    2. paul3390
      paul3390 13 May 2020 12: 38 New
      +5
      A moot point. It depends on which gunpowder to use.
    3. V.I.P.
      V.I.P. 13 May 2020 12: 57 New
      -4
      But why. Instructions for NATO snipers under this cartridge: defeat of the chest figure-600m, growth -900m ..... The instruction on SVD-Fire from a sniper rifle is most effective at distances up to 800 m. The direct shot range for the chest figure is 430 m, and for the running figure - 640 m ... Feel the difference. SVD and cartridges are heavier. Plus SVD automatic shooting. But in contrast, the NATO troops have Marxman with the same cartridge 7,61 * 51 and automatic rifles with a longer barrel .....
      1. Shadow041
        Shadow041 13 May 2020 14: 46 New
        +1
        You yourself answered your own question. A rifle with a pancake with a heavier barrel will shoot further and more accurately than a rifle with a shorter and lighter barrel, even if they shoot with the same rounds.
    4. orionvitt
      orionvitt 13 May 2020 13: 54 New
      +2
      NATO cartridge 7,62x51, at one time, did not satisfy anyone except financiers. And the concept of "morally outdated", as applied to the "Mosin" patron, is, as the Chinese believe, very elastic. Here is the rim, yes, it would be removed. And as a purely rifle and machine gun, it is quite good for itself.
  • Shadow
    Shadow 13 May 2020 12: 24 New
    -1
    In 1900, in 1929 and in 1969 its characteristics were quite sufficient - the sparkling heels of the Chinese themselves showed this. lol
    1. V.I.P.
      V.I.P. 13 May 2020 12: 49 New
      +3
      In 1969, the Chinese were stopped by the Grad attacks ......
  • Cowbra
    Cowbra 13 May 2020 12: 26 New
    -2
    Alaverdi to the Chinese ... When was the MiG-21 created?
    https://afirsov.livejournal.com/544055.html
  • V.I.P.
    V.I.P. 13 May 2020 12: 31 New
    0
    I wonder why the trunk does not have a DTK? And what is her effective firing range? Usually, automatic rifles are made for this cartridge ........ It's strange, but in my opinion they needed to make a boltovik under the cartridge .338 Lapua Magnum (8,6 × 70 mm) The main niche of 338 Lapua Magnum is sniper shooting at long distances. High accuracy (0,5 MOA) and a flat trajectory of the bullet allow for effective aimed fire up to 1500 meters and beyond.
    1. Cowbra
      Cowbra 13 May 2020 12: 38 New
      -2
      DTK reduces accuracy. Vintar is sniper.
    2. Korax71
      Korax71 13 May 2020 14: 40 New
      0
      It all depends on the tasks. 118LR is quite enough for a sniper of a company link. The same floor is an angular minute. 338 are nevertheless battalion links and there are no snipers of such qualification to shoot 1km + into each squad or platoon.
      1. Cowbra
        Cowbra 13 May 2020 22: 00 New
        0
        And what's more, he is a burden to you in contact combat. Especially in the city, it’s not in vain that the oar is called like an elephant with tusks - without turning around) Everything is littered, everything is normal - we got a sniper stuck! - How stuck? It was true) It’s exactly like that in a broken-up aperture with a muzzle and a butt, you pull it - it’s neither here nor here, the shit is small!
    3. AUL
      AUL 13 May 2020 15: 16 New
      0
      Quote: V.I.P.
      I wonder why the trunk does not have a DTK?

      When fired, the DTK raises dust and snow harder, moves leaves, which is absolutely useless for an ambush sniper!
    4. Cowbra
      Cowbra 13 May 2020 21: 57 New
      -1
      Minutes, let's get started about slotted, specialists. minus and I can stick. Any DTK is asymmetrical, it doesn’t care at the oar - but she’s a marksman marksman at the squad, here is a sniper. Hello minusers!
  • Kosh
    Kosh 13 May 2020 12: 35 New
    +4
    They are now experimenting with a caliber of 8,6x70mm
  • KSVK
    KSVK 13 May 2020 13: 02 New
    +1
    But today we can say that 7,62x54 mm R has relatively low ballistic characteristics.

    This is not true. Cartridges in their ballistics are very similar. If we compare 7,62NATO and 7,62x54R
    Ammunition is known to have a .308 Win or 7,62 × 51 NATO nomenclature

    These are DIFFERENT ammunition. Often irreplaceable. Same as .223 and 5,56 NATO.
    small arms chambered for 7,62x54 mm will be discontinued, and the available ones will probably be transformed into 7,62 × 51 NATO ammunition.

    The cost of this "transformation" will be higher than the new weapon. Do not forget that 7,62x54 and 7,62 NATO, in addition to different casings, also have DIFFERENT BULLETS in diameter.

    So sorry, the article .... nothing. Replacement sewed on soap. And for a lot of money.

    As practice shows, even the US, with their military budget, do not dare to make such "transitions". And then there we are talking about a PRINCIPALLY different ammunition to replace the 7,62 and 5,56.
  • bunta
    bunta 13 May 2020 13: 07 New
    +1
    The presence of a flange on the Russian cartridge is a design feature, and not a sign of moral aging.
    1. bk0010
      bk0010 13 May 2020 13: 31 New
      +3
      Actually a sign. In tsarist times, the cost of a cartridge with a rim was several times less than the equivalent without a rim (the rim eliminated problems from possible inaccuracies in the manufacture of the sleeve). Now the rim complicates the loading automation (but all problems with it have long been resolved).
      1. bunta
        bunta 13 May 2020 15: 49 New
        +2
        Factor of? At the expense of the complexity of automation, I would like more.
        1. bk0010
          bk0010 14 May 2020 08: 56 New
          0
          Quote: bunta
          Factor of?
          Yes, he was surprised when he found out. High accuracy was required in the manufacture of the sleeve so that the gases did not escape towards the shutter. Or a rim that cheaply solves this problem.
          Quote: bunta
          At the expense of the complexity of automation, I would like more.
          The cartridge, in which the sleeve with the edge cannot be immediately fed into the chamber from the tape, will not miss the edge. You must first shove it in the opposite direction, and then send it to the chamber.
          1. bunta
            bunta 14 May 2020 10: 01 New
            0
            Quote: bk0010
            High precision liner manufacturing required

            This has nothing to do with accuracy. In mechanical engineering this is called basing from a supporting surface. In this case, the flange. Waferless cartridges are based on the slope of the sleeve, but only because there is nothing more to base on. No, you can still cut the sleeve like in a gun, but there are limitations. For machine guns, a sleeve with a flange has a tangible superiority, since it allows for a longer barrel with the overall dimensions of the weapon. The tape runs directly above or below the locking assembly. In the firmware tape, this is impossible in principle. Therefore, either the barrel is shorter or the size of the weapon will be larger. It is not possible to use a flangeless cartridge with an extraction tape due to the grip reliability. Therefore, for machine guns with tape power, the Russian cartridge is ideal and has a clear advantage in terms of the reliability of all weapons. In store-powered rifles, the flange, when fed from the magazine, rubs the lower cartridge sleeve as a cutter. This really is not gut. But in SVD stores this problem was solved. There are no problems when designing weapons for this caliber. The problem is sucked out of the finger. We should be proud of our welcoming cartridge for its so long military service, and not look for problems where they do not exist.
            1. bk0010
              bk0010 14 May 2020 10: 25 New
              0
              Extremely interesting, thanks. Nevertheless, about the price: http://samlib.ru/p/polishuk_w/patron.shtml
              1. bunta
                bunta 14 May 2020 14: 35 New
                0
                Quote: bk0010
                http://samlib.ru/p/polishuk_w/patron.shtml

                speculation. Cartridges are made on rotor lines, where the cost of equipment is leveled. The chamber here is generally no side. The difference in price is mainly due to the bullet, this is where accuracy is really needed and there will be more tool wear and additional costs for quality control. Radial runout of the center of mass of 0,01 mm and accuracy of more than three MOA (I can not vouch for the figure). The party failed in accuracy - it was defective, and in the party a million rounds - how can it be recouped? In general, as the daughter of the officer said, not everything is so simple.
            2. ifdru74
              ifdru74 14 May 2020 11: 10 New
              0
              And why are there no stores with more than 10 rounds of ammunition under 7.62x54R? There is an opinion that because of the welt.
              1. English tarantas
                English tarantas 14 May 2020 12: 07 New
                0
                Well, actually there is.
              2. bunta
                bunta 14 May 2020 14: 24 New
                0
                Because of the welt. More cartridges, more feed spring force in the magazine, even more resistance to the cartridge at the feed due to friction of the welt against the sleeve.
  • Black Colonel
    Black Colonel 13 May 2020 13: 09 New
    0
    Why should Russia not start production of 7,62x54 rounds instead of 7,62x54R and start producing new ones and remaking existing weapons for them? Alteration of the existing ones will not be so costly - it will be necessary to redo the chamber and the ejector. After the Second World War, the Americans altered the captured MG-42 under 7,62x51, taking them into service as the MG-3.
    But in the future, our gunsmiths became much easier task to design small arms for this caliber.
    1. ssergey1978
      ssergey1978 13 May 2020 14: 06 New
      +2
      The game is not worth the candle. The costs will be gigantic, and the exhaust is dubious. Rant does not carry many problems, he is simply anochranism.
  • Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 13 May 2020 13: 12 New
    +1
    It seems to me that we will also come to this .... Americans are testing machine guns at 8-10 mm, if we go the same way, then 7,62x54 will probably become obsolete. Or it will be necessary to do something more advanced in this size
  • zwlad
    zwlad 13 May 2020 13: 22 New
    +3
    China prepares and switches to a caliber of a probable enemy in advance so that then it does not carry its ammunition to the territory of a probable enemy (joke)
    And so, yes, the arms market is overwhelming.
  • rotmistr60
    rotmistr60 13 May 2020 13: 27 New
    +2
    A cartridge with a rim is really outdated today, tk. creates certain inconveniences in the design of weapons, but I do not agree with the Chinese about ballistics. We will use it for a long time, of course. the "life cycle" of SVD and PC is not over yet.
  • ssergey1978
    ssergey1978 13 May 2020 14: 04 New
    0
    Of course, it makes no sense to change 7.62x54 to 7.62 NATO. The characteristics are approximately equal, but in terms of arms sales, of course, 7.62 NATO is promising.
  • Brenneke
    Brenneke 13 May 2020 21: 18 New
    0
    Our three-line needs modernization:
    - replacing the Berdan system capsule with a Boxer - this will increase the pressure and stability of the shot.
    - apply bullets BC above 0.5. Analogs of TMK or VLD.
    - High-energy and stable gunpowder is needed!
    And Our cartridge will exceed .308th.
    Yes ... there will be no pairing of trajectories with old cartridges ... But the production of the "new" one will be much more expensive.
    1. ifdru74
      ifdru74 14 May 2020 11: 13 New
      0
      You can't just take and equip a cartridge with new powder with a primer. There will always be "talents" who will insert a "new" cartridge into an "old" weapon and will be surprised to see the barrel burst if the bolt carrier does not hit their foreheads.
      1. Brenneke
        Brenneke 14 May 2020 16: 39 New
        0
        "You can't just take" ... what will it cost to change the cartridge in service - "the concept of the concept" - no. As well as understanding the concept - modernization.
        PS: Progress in shooting disciplines is, unfortunately, without the Russian Federation.
  • mister-red
    mister-red 14 May 2020 00: 05 New
    0
    In China, it is noted that small arms chambered for 7,62x54 mm will be discontinued, and existing ones will probably be transformed into 7,62 × 51 NATO ammunition.

    Is it really that simple to remake a weapon? Probably easier to do new
  • Pavlik K.
    Pavlik K. 14 May 2020 00: 08 New
    0
    "Its length is 1100" ... don't give a damn - the length of the barrel ?? On the plane - the engine, on the rifle - the length of the barrel? With cartridges and gunpowder then ...
  • The comment was deleted.
  • sachasavvin
    sachasavvin 14 May 2020 11: 41 New
    0
    Over time, we also need to switch to 308, our currency will be below the dollar, the euro and the renminbi, and many others such as hryvnias, etc. for another 100 years. which gives us competitive opportunities in the market, our 308 will eventually become the most affordable and massive, which will greatly delight many countries without their own production of cartridges, it is time to start thinking like capitalists and take advantage of the fall of the ruble like the Chinese at one time
    1. Brenneke
      Brenneke 15 May 2020 20: 40 New
      0
      The lot of 7.62x39 was "shooting in the back" in ambushes ... from 300 meters of fire contact, the western weapons school is moving away at a rapid pace! .308 in the case of the Russian Federation - ruinous stupidity! (He is destined for the fate of 7,62x39) This is what I need ... Modernization 7.62x54! 5.45x39 in version 7H39 I ... .338 Norma Magnum, .408 Chey Tac!
      PS: Optics for every infantryman! Without fanaticism of course)