Military Review

Serial production of the Su-57 in the context of engines

90

Experienced Su-57 with engines of the first stage. Photo UAC / uacrussia.ru


Last year, a contract was signed for the large-scale production of 5th generation Su-57 fighters, and then assembly of the equipment began. This order will take several years to come and will have some interesting features. So, a significant part of the plans is directly related to the promising engine under the code "30".

The latest news


Earlier it was repeatedly reported that two versions, differing in the composition of equipment and equipment, would eventually go into mass production. First of all, the differences of the series will be in the type of power plant. The aircraft of the first lots will receive existing engines, and later they will begin to equip the equipment with new products.

8 May RIA News published excerpts from an interview with Deputy Minister of Defense Alexei Krivoruchko, including and on the topic of the started production of Su-57 aircraft. The deputy minister spoke about the imminent start of the supply of serial equipment, and also noted that the plans for two-stage serial production remain in force.

As previously reported, the first batch of Su-57 will have “4th generation engines”, i.e. existing serial AL-41F1. Deliveries of equipment in this configuration will continue until the mid-twenties. By this time, it is planned to complete all testing and design activities, as a result of which the 5th generation Product 30 engine will be prepared for the series.

More accurate delivery times, the number of aircraft in one or another configuration, etc. remained unnamed. At the same time, A. Krivoruchko pointed out the advantages of promising engines in the form of a reduced life cycle cost and increased fuel efficiency.

2 + 76 = series


As part of the development work on the PAK FA, 10 flight prototypes were built and tested; three more products were intended for various ground events. To date, all major tests have been completed, which allowed to begin mass production.


Su-57 and experienced UAV S-70. Photo by the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation

In August 2018, a contract was signed at the Army forum for the delivery of the first two serial Su-57s in 2019 and 2020. At the end of June 2019, the Ministry of Defense issued a much larger order. The new agreement provides for the construction of 76 aircraft with delivery in 2020-27. As follows from the available materials, work on the assembly of equipment started in 2018.

In November 2019, a photograph of the Su-57 aircraft with tail number “01 blue” and serial number 51001 in the assembly shop of the Komsomolsk-on-Amur aircraft plant appeared in the domestic media. The Ministry of Defense clarified that by the end of the year the car will be handed over to the aerospace forces. In 2020, the delivery of a second such aircraft was expected. Apparently, it was about fulfilling the order of 2018 for two cars.

Just a few weeks later, on December 24, the 01 Blue crashed during a test flight. The test pilot successfully ejected and was evacuated. The media, citing various sources, published possible causes of the incident, but the results of the official investigation remain unknown. It was announced that they will be taken into account when improving the aircraft.

Currently, several serial Su-57s are already in the KaAAZ workshops at different stages of construction. This is the second aircraft of the contract of 2018, as well as the first aircraft of the second order. VKS must adopt this technique before the end of this year. The next batch will go to the troops already in 2021, and similar processes will continue until 2027.

As noted by A. Krivoruchko in November last year, so far it is only about the supply of single aircraft, but already in 2020-21. construction and commissioning volumes will increase at times. However, both then and in the last interview, the deputy minister did not disclose more accurate figures.

Engine issue


While in production remain the so-called so-called the first stage, having the appropriate composition of on-board equipment and power plant. Both lost last year and the aircraft under construction now are equipped with “117” / AL-41F1 engines. The same units will be used on a significant number of subsequent Su-57s.


Engine "117" / AL-41F1. Photo Bmpd.livejournal.com

The exact number of fighters of the first stage has not yet been disclosed. It is only known that they will be produced until the middle of the decade, after which the so-called second stage of the series. “Products 30” will be installed on all new aircraft until the completion of the second existing order. The share of such equipment in the total expected fleet of aircraft also remains unknown.

Deliveries of serial 30 engines to KnAAZ so far remain a matter of the distant future, but necessary measures are already being taken. Since December 2017, flight tests of a prototype aircraft with a 30 engine have been conducted. It was planned to spend about three years on such tests. As far as we know, while testing a plane with a combined power plant. In the near future he will receive two “Products 30”.

Apparently, the customer and the contractor do not intend to rush and force work on the promising engine. All activities are carried out in accordance with the established schedule and without haste, which could harm the project. The benefits of this approach are obvious.

Two engines


The Su-57 fighters of the first stage receive AL-41F1 engines, showing very high performance. Products with afterburner thrust of 15 thousand kgf are able to accelerate the aircraft to high supersonic speeds, as well as provide a similar flight without the use of afterburner. The nozzle is equipped with thrust vector control. The control system is fully electronic with a maximum degree of automation. Also, engines are characterized by high efficiency and an outstanding resource.

A modified version of the 117 engine, AL-41F1S, is already being produced in a large series and is actively used by troops on Su-35S fighters. The basic AL-41F1 passed the full test cycle on the experimental T-50 / Su-57 and is recommended for use on production aircraft.

Serial production of the Su-57 in the context of engines

The first flight of the experimental Su-57 with the engine "30" (left). Photo UAC / uacrussia.ru

So far, not much is known about the engine of the second stage "30". It was reported that during the development of the engine, accumulated experience was used, but it is not a direct development of any of the existing structures. Through the use of modern technologies and solutions, it was possible to increase all the main characteristics - although the exact parameters have not yet been disclosed.

It is expected that the new “Product 30” will differ from the AL-41F1 in higher thrust in all modes with lower specific fuel consumption. The engine will receive a fully electronic automatic control system that independently ensures the operation of all units in optimal conditions. The nozzle with UVT will remain.

New engines "30" will provide an increase in thrust-to-weight ratio. When using “117” products, this parameter for the Su-57 with a maximum take-off weight does not exceed 0,85-0,9. The installation of engines “30” will allow to exceed 1. With normal take-off weight, the thrust-to-weight ratio is expected to increase from 1-1,15 to 1,2-1,35. Accordingly, all the main take-off and landing and flight characteristics, carrying capacity, etc. will grow.

Distant future


Su-57 aircraft with engines of the second stage, as expected, will favorably differ from earlier aircraft in all the basic characteristics that depend on the power plant. However, the equipment of the first stage even without “Products 30” will show very high characteristics, almost beyond the capabilities of aircraft of previous generations.

The expected number of aircraft of the first and second stages is still unknown. Given the announced terms and volumes of the order, you can imagine the approximate pace of production. To have time to hand over 76 cars by 2027 inclusively, industry will have to produce approx. 10 aircraft per year. In this case, starting from the middle of the decade (in 2025-27), it will be possible to produce no more than a few dozen second-stage fighters, and the bulk of the equipment will consist of aircraft with 117 engines.


The tail section of the aircraft close-up. The external differences between the nozzles of the two engines are clearly visible. Product "30" in the foreground. Photo UAC / uacrussia.ru

As far as one can judge, the current contracts for 78 production aircraft will not be the last, and in 2027 the construction of the Su-57 will not be completed. Thus, no later than 2028, we should expect the beginning of the supply of equipment in the following lots. Apparently, they will be in the configuration of the "second stage". Also, it cannot be ruled out that by that time there will be some kind of aircraft modernization project. At the same time, the conventional Su-57M will be equipped with the “Products 30” already familiar for their period, which in our time still remain a distant prospect.

As part of the extensive PAK FA program, it was possible to develop and master in the production a host of new products for various purposes. One of the key components of the program was the promising 30 engine. It remains at the testing stage, but in the foreseeable future the situation will seriously change. The result will be the emergence of the Su-57 in its final configuration - with all the required characteristics and capabilities.
Author:
90 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must to register.

I have an account? Sign in

  1. Mavrikiy
    Mavrikiy 12 May 2020 05: 41 New
    +8
    Also, engines are characterized by high efficiency and an outstanding resource.
    Are you crazy? Such writing, the Chinese will die out, because they can’t eat. And their media will simply be choked with saliva.
    1. Shurik70
      Shurik70 12 May 2020 07: 19 New
      15
      Come on.
      There are plenty of couch experts in China too, so they will explain on fingers that Chinese is better in all respects ...
      And the experts will simply keep silent. And continue to work. What do we have, what do they have.
      1. letinant
        letinant 12 May 2020 07: 50 New
        +4
        Mavrikiy
        Trolling the Chinese, that you attacked a person!
      2. avg
        avg 12 May 2020 12: 03 New
        +3
        And the experts will simply keep silent. And continue to work. What do we have, what do they have.

        It depends on what kind of specialists. Chinese PR experts will definitely not be silent. Moreover, to beat an opponent, for them, perhaps more great valor than praising their own.
        1. strelokmira
          strelokmira 12 May 2020 16: 16 New
          +1

          It depends on what kind of specialists. Chinese PR specialists will definitely not be silent

          While in this thread I see only specialists in PR from the Russian Federation
  2. Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 12 May 2020 06: 24 New
    0
    Test pilot successfully catapulted and was evacuated
    It is written as if taken out of the enemy rear of the pilot.
    1. letinant
      letinant 12 May 2020 07: 47 New
      +9
      Actually, in those places they may not save, there are continuous rivers and swamps.
      1. 3danimal
        3danimal 13 May 2020 09: 54 New
        0
        I agree, looking at the map of the "habitability" of Russia, everything is becoming clearer.
    2. Region-25.rus
      Region-25.rus 12 May 2020 13: 41 New
      +5
      were you there? I've been here ... and you can eject like that ... that you can look for a week with dogs ... but if in the taiga in the hills .... Well ... about "looking for weeks", of course I got excited))) But to evacuate .. . there may be problems with that.
      1. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 12 May 2020 13: 43 New
        +1
        Well, yes, it's near Khabarovsk, something about the middle zone of Russia has wedged me.
      2. not main
        not main 13 May 2020 00: 14 New
        +1
        Quote: Region-25.rus
        were you there? I've been here ... and you can eject like that ... that you can look for a week with dogs ... but if in the taiga in the hills .... Well ... about "looking for weeks", of course I got excited))) But to evacuate .. . there may be problems with that.

        If the "Komar" worked without question during the day! But if not? Then maybe never. I was also there.
    3. Dzungar
      Dzungar 15 May 2020 16: 53 New
      0
      There is wild taiga around, the bears walk. So the pilot really had to evacuate and faster
  3. Dmitry from Voronezh
    Dmitry from Voronezh 12 May 2020 06: 24 New
    13
    The main thing is that the car goes into series. Even with the engines of the first stage. The contract is concluded, if only he would not fall under the sequestration under some plausible excuse. So we are waiting and hoping for 76 new Su-57s.
    1. 3danimal
      3danimal 13 May 2020 09: 59 New
      +2
      They have been talking about 76 for a long time. We will see...
      With new technology, everything is much slower than promises (we recall 2000 T-14 tanks by 2020).
      1. Voyager
        Voyager 13 May 2020 12: 38 New
        +2
        Quote: 3danimal
        (remember about 2000 T-14 tanks by 2020).

        The Ministry of Defense did not promise 2000 rebars.
  4. codetalker
    codetalker 12 May 2020 06: 33 New
    +4
    Haste does not bring to good. She should resort to it in a situation: "either we will run this way, or they will crush us." Obviously, this is not the situation now.
  5. VicktorVR
    VicktorVR 12 May 2020 07: 09 New
    -2
    The thrust-to-weight ratio will be greater than 1, i.e. if put the gun on its side, it will shoot around the corner put the plane upright, can it take off?
    1. Errr
      Errr 12 May 2020 09: 53 New
      +3
      Quote: VicktorVR
      The thrust-to-weight ratio will be greater than 1, i.e. if put the gun on its side, it will shoot around the corner put the plane upright, can it take off?
      Good question. smile
      It can, but not always. The possibility of vertical take-off in this case depends on the load on the machine. The table below shows, for example, the thrust-weight ratio of the F-35 modifications in different applications.
      1. +5
        +5 12 May 2020 10: 35 New
        -1
        Yeah, Penguin is the same flyer ... like Mig-23 or extreme F-16 in growths
        1. Errr
          Errr 12 May 2020 10: 44 New
          0
          Well, somehow so sensational ... smile
          Although without "build-up" type PTB F-16 is quite good.
          1. +5
            +5 12 May 2020 17: 06 New
            +1
            Have you seen Block 70/72? This is not about the PTB .... although the entire 4th generation, except for the Su-27 family, hanged PTBs fly on combat missions. Large volume of internal tanks is one of the most important signs of the 5th generation.
          2. 3danimal
            3danimal 13 May 2020 10: 06 New
            +2
            That's right, the F-16 is no less maneuverable than the MiG-29 or Su-27.
            Lighter, made "aerodynamically unstable."
      2. opus
        opus 12 May 2020 15: 05 New
        +5
        Quote: Herrr
        It can, but not always.

        can not
        Quote: VicktorVR
        if you put the plane vertically, it can take off

        at T / W, TWR 1, 11, or 1,1
        F-35
        1. Do not stand upright
        2. If you put that mass (due to stilts) will increase and 1,1 will not
        3. At the beginning of acceleration, aerodynamic drag will increase and TWR will not be enough
        Zoom
        For PH TWR = 30 -100

        P-42 (Experimental aircraft based on the Su-27) with TWR = 1,39


        also would not take off
        1. Errr
          Errr 14 May 2020 11: 20 New
          0
          hi
          1. Probably about the F-35 you're right ...what There is still an opinion on the network that I have not yet verified that the minimum launch TWR of the launch vehicle should be about 1,15.
          2.
          Quote: opus
          For TW, the pH is 30-100.
          This is for you, as I understand it, for humor. smile drinks
          But seriously, here are the starting TWRs of some promising Russian LVs in increasing order of this parameter:
          Angara-A7 - 1,19
          Angara-A7V - 1,2
          Angara-A7P - 1,22
          Yenisei-5 - 1,42
          Amur-5 - 1,43
          The maximum starting TWR (known to me personally) equal to 6,0 belongs to the "antediluvian" Japanese Lambda-4S. Most likely you were referring to the TWR of rocket engines, not the TWR LV. Below as confirmation of this my TWR assumption of some rocket engines:
          SSME - 73,12
          RD-180 - 73,4
          F-1 - 94,1
          Merlin 1C - 96,0
          NK-33 - 136,0
          Merlin 1D - 150,0
          RD-270 - 189,91
          3.
          Quote: opus
          The P-42 (an experimental aircraft based on the Su-27) with TWR = 1,39 would also not take off.
          And again, humor. smile drinks I love that. laughing
          P-42 with its two P-32s (forced AL-31F) and TWR = 1,93 (not 1,39, your tsifiri changed places) would start at a vertical start much faster than most launch vehicles. And with TWR = 1,39, he would also give heat! (see above TWR boosters, quite comparable to 1,39)
          P-42 was equipped with two forced turbojet AL-31F dual-circuit engines with afterburners, which received the designation "R-32". Compared to conventional AL-31F, afterburning thrust of R-32 engines was increased to 13600 kgf. Two of these engines, together with a small maximum take-off mass of the aircraft, provided a thrust-weight ratio of at least 1,93 kgf / kg. Thanks to this, the aircraft was able to overcome the supersonic barrier in the vertical climb mode. High thrust-to-weight ratio also created a peculiar problem: the brakes did not hold the aircraft at launch. To solve this problem, a heavy tracked tractor was used, to which the plane was attached using a cable and an electronic lock. The tractor was protected by a massive armor plate from a jet stream.
          https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/П-42#Силовая_установка
          Anyway, many thanks for your reply. It was nice to talk. hi
          1. opus
            opus 14 May 2020 12: 19 New
            +1
            Quote: Herrr
            the launch TWR of the booster should be around 1,15.

            not enough: it will collapse immediately if someone nearby farts.
            windage, pillar facticheki, inertia, fuel splashes. aerodynamics "does not work"
            Quote: Herrr
            This is for you, as I understand it, for humor

            sorry. missed for engines rocket carriers

            Quote: Herrr
            Angara-A7 - 1,19
            Angara-A7V - 1,2
            Angara-A7P - 1,22
            Yenisei-5 - 1,42
            Amur-5 - 1,43

            I have not seen a single launch of such missiles. Is this from an alternative story?
            R-7 (8K71): launch weight 280 t, traction at the ground 404 tf = 1,4428
            Proton: Launch mass 705 t (Weight 6 kN) thrust at the ground 923 kN = 10026
            Quote: Herrr
            would start at a vertical start much faster than most launch vehicles.

            1. he had to attach "legs", or a slide for a vertical catapult.
            This would increase mass, reduce TWR and
            Quote: opus
            If you put that mass (due to stilts) will increase and 1,1 will not



            though....
            Powerplant: 1 × Rolls-Royce Avon turbojet engine, thrust 44,6 kN
            Maximum takeoff weight: 3,272 kg.
            TWR = 1,3894
            (he has trouble with the chassis, he won’t give a ride for the Su-27
            2. You need to leave a great deal of acceleration, so as not to fall over 9 while the aerodynamics of the plumage does not work) or cables

            Quote: Herrr
            P-42 with its two P-32s (forced AL-31F) and TWR = 1,93 (not 1,39, your tsifiri changed places)

            may be. it seems to me a mistake and it’s actually empty, lightweight and low on fuel ...
            Quote: Herrr
            Anyway, many thanks for your reply. It was nice to talk

            drinks
            1. Errr
              Errr 14 May 2020 12: 57 New
              0
              drinks Just for completeness, the TWR Saturn-V is less than 1,164. Not blown away even once. lol Although, of course, this bandura was heavy, but its sail is not small, and the ocean winds are not weak. what
              1. opus
                opus 14 May 2020 15: 06 New
                0
                Quote: Herrr
                Just for completeness, the TWR Saturn-V is less than 1,164.

                I’ll open my mouth here and they will bring me insane.
                As a person with the E-1.1 specialty, I am tormented by vague doubts about the starting mass of the "five"
  6. Ross xnumx
    Ross xnumx 12 May 2020 07: 14 New
    -3
    Serial production of the Su-57 in the context of engines

    I would like to see significant reasons in the text in the context of the production of the Su-57. With this engine of the second stage, we are rinsed with brains starting in 2017. Therefore, the question of the compliance of the AL-41F1 engine with the given parameters of the fifth generation aircraft is thus: does this engine give the Su-57 the right to be called a fifth generation fighter or? If not, then why the hell should I release with the engine of the first stage, if in the future modernization is needed?
    Only my belief is growing more and more that Russian production is not ready to supply the RF Armed Forces with the latest weapons, which “not the Bolsheviks” have been talking about, talking about and showing for so long. I can not "get enough" of the abundance of excuses and explanations. Why all these snot?
    We need real developments, products, and not prospects for a distant future, in which the surviving generation of Russian people will be “fooled” by new predictions, animated videos, and explanations of bright hopes.
    1. Andrey Mikhaylov
      Andrey Mikhaylov 12 May 2020 07: 31 New
      -8
      Your masters, from across the ocean demand to abandon the weapons that you call animated videos,
      1. mark2
        mark2 12 May 2020 08: 11 New
        +3
        But they are not yours or have you already attributed yourself to the owners?
    2. carstorm 11
      carstorm 11 12 May 2020 07: 40 New
      +1
      nobody rinses you. the product is already being tested and who in the subject will tell you everything here is that this is years. as for supplies, so let's not have an engine yet, just stop releasing the plane. combat pilots will not learn new cars. technicians will not study materiel. and sit and wait. It has already been said many times, but I repeat, combat readiness. there is such a term. he will always be at the head of any decisions.
    3. Sergey Valov
      Sergey Valov 12 May 2020 08: 39 New
      +5
      “The right to be called a fifth-generation fighter” - what difference does it make to which generation the airplane belongs to, all these conventions and show-offs. The main thing is its performance characteristics and relevance.
      1. Ross xnumx
        Ross xnumx 12 May 2020 15: 50 New
        0
        Quote: Sergey Valov
        The main thing is its performance characteristics and relevance.

        What are you saying? belay And I naively believed that the main thing is that the latest aircraft are delivered (like other latest weapons).
    4. Ka-52
      Ka-52 12 May 2020 09: 15 New
      11
      With this engine of the second stage, we are rinsed with brains starting in 2017

      Seen badly rinse. Or there’s nothing to rinse. Otherwise they would not have asked such stupid questions.
      process create modern turbofan is not a comment for you in HE: the time is a special resource. The Americans won the F119 for as many as 7 years. And after 3 years you salivated.
      Therefore, the question of the compliance of the AL-41F1 engine with the given parameters of the fifth generation aircraft is thus: this engine gives the Su-57 the right to be called a fifth generation fighter

      by what criterion do you consider that the Su-57 does not correspond to the fifth generation (let us omit the point that all these "generations" are complete nonsense. Type of phraseological unit "Kievan Rus")? Dry or specific thrust or afterburner? By resource? By specific consumption? By the degree of bypass?
      why the hell to produce with the engine of the first stage, if subsequently modernization is necessary?

      what are the problems of modernization? History remembers thousands of cases when the next generation of engines, weapons, optics, etc. components began to be developed when the basic model was still undergoing government tests. The same F-22 did not immediately receive its F119 either !!! History has not preserved information - were there among them ehsperd screams about "F100 is not a 5th generation engine! They are rinsing our brains with the F119! Why make an F-22 with an old F-100, and then upgrade!" and other crap
      Only my belief is rooted more and more

      and you try to politicize less and read technical literature more
      1. NEXUS
        NEXUS 12 May 2020 13: 01 New
        +1
        Quote: Ka-52
        by what criterion do you consider that the Su-57 does not correspond to the fifth generation (let us omit the point that all these "generations" are complete nonsense. Type of phraseological unit "Kievan Rus")? Dry or specific thrust or afterburner? By resource? By specific consumption? By the degree of bypass?

        As far as I understand, there is still one caveat ... SU-57, some experts are positioning as a high-altitude interceptor as well. The ceiling is declared at 20 thousand. And in this regard, there is one point - what speed parameters will the fighter reach at an altitude of 20 thousand, given that the air density is heterogeneous at different heights?
        1. Ka-52
          Ka-52 12 May 2020 14: 05 New
          +3
          SU-57, some experts are positioning as a high-altitude interceptor as well. The ceiling is declared at 20 thousand. And in this regard, there is one point - what speed parameters will the fighter reach at an altitude of 20 thousand, given that the air density is heterogeneous at different heights?

          naturally. With increasing height, the thrust falls. The drop in traction is explained by a decrease in the specific gravity of air with height, therefore, a decrease in the second flow rate of air flowing through the engine. High-altitude flight is preferable for economic characteristics, but not for high-speed ones. Because t of air falls, which favorably affects the operation of the compressor. The compression ratio increases, which leads to a decrease in specific consumption.
          1. bayard
            bayard 12 May 2020 23: 59 New
            0
            The working speed of the MiG-25 at an altitude of 20 m. (For the MiG-000 I think everything is the same) - 31 km \ h. The Su-2500 has air intakes of a sufficiently large cross section for flying at such altitudes; speed is also sufficient. MiG-57 at such heights and with such a speed of air is enough.
            1. Ka-52
              Ka-52 13 May 2020 04: 23 New
              0
              The working speed of the MiG-25 at an altitude of 20 m. (For the MiG-000 I think everything is the same) - 31 km / h

              oh well, you exaggerate)) 2,5M at the twenty-fifth is achieved only with the inclusion of the burner behind the turbine. In addition, you should never call the working speed of 2,5M or higher, because at these speeds a thermal barrier arises. Twenty-fifth can fly through it thanks to the materials, but not infinitely long. In addition, the most optimal speed-economy ratio occurs at h = 10 m. At 000, air density is not enough to create optimal operation of the turbofan engine
              1. bayard
                bayard 13 May 2020 13: 53 New
                +1
                Did I write that 2500 km / h is achieved in non-afterburner mode? Our Nasosensky regiment (near Baku) regularly flew high-altitude missions, and always at 20 meters. At the specified working supersonic speed. And the MiG-000 kept this speed confidently for 25 - 20 minutes. Sorry, but I, as a combat control officer, personally tracked these flights.
                And the maximum speed of the MiG-25 was reached precisely at such an altitude, which was also recorded by the Israeli air defense during the flights of the MiG-25RB from Egypt in the seventies. However, it was created for such heights (interception of the Valkyrie).
                1. Ka-52
                  Ka-52 13 May 2020 14: 22 New
                  +1
                  and always on 20 meters

                  you mix different things into porridge. Interceptors went to the ceiling to reduce the temperature rise. Lower density - lower friction - lower heating of the skin.
                  We are talking about the modes of the propulsion system and its altitude parameters. I repeat once again: the optimum for engines (thrust / economy ratio) is in the range of 7-11 thousand. Further, to fly faster you need to move the throttle to the afterburner mode. Accordingly, fuel and resource will fly into the pipe. Like so. Therefore, remember, when the navigator is plotting, then at each mark the speed, fuel consumption and remaining fuel are calculated.
                  1. bayard
                    bayard 13 May 2020 14: 31 New
                    0
                    Quote: Ka-52
                    I repeat once again: the optimum for engines (thrust / economy ratio) is in the range of 7-11 thousand.

                    Yes, I did not argue with that. Initially, it was about maximum speed at altitude.
      2. Ross xnumx
        Ross xnumx 12 May 2020 15: 52 New
        -3
        Quote: Ka-52
        by what criterion do you consider the Su-57 not to be compatible with the fifth generation

        I'm sorry to translate your squalor to normal questions. First, study the post, and then hang dogs on me ... To repeat that your assumptions are not my ideas is silly. I will not waste time ...
      3. Ross xnumx
        Ross xnumx 12 May 2020 15: 58 New
        -1
        Quote: Ka-52
        and you try to politicize less and read technical literature more

        You overslept here - your specific topic:
        https://topwar.ru/171143-stali-izvestny-sroki-okonchanija-gosispytanij-vertoleta-mi-28nm.html
        Do you recommend reading technical literature? Nothing depends on my statements, let Serdyukov and others like him read technical literature. When I needed it, I read literature and knew how the hell was different from an airplane.
        1. Ka-52
          Ka-52 13 May 2020 04: 28 New
          +1
          when I needed it, I read literature and knew how the hell was different from an airplane.

          judging by your writings, in horseradish you understand more than in airplanes. It can be seen and the literature was read hi
      4. not main
        not main 13 May 2020 00: 20 New
        +1
        Quote: Ka-52
        Ka-52 (Andrey) Yesterday, 09:15

        Well on to the same! I was looking for a faithful comment on the spirit, but found that I myself wanted to answer!
    5. EvilLion
      EvilLion 12 May 2020 09: 33 New
      +8
      The fighter has no generation, he has those. requirements and compliance with them. Stop writing nonsense. But the MO didn’t have to say anything about the engine, they would have rolled out the engine, called the Su-57A conditionally. And everyone would be happy, including those about whose logic the same T-34 in the 40th didn’t have to be released until a new gearbox was made, an 85 mm gun was put down, etc., etc.
    6. +5
      +5 12 May 2020 13: 04 New
      0
      And with the current engine, the Su-57 has an LTX of at least the F-22 level (because the glider was better and did not start making flat nozzles that gobble up to 20% of the thrust), but rather better .... therefore having an engine with which superiority will be even greater - not so critical ....
      1. Ka-52
        Ka-52 13 May 2020 04: 47 New
        +2
        and didn’t make flat nozzles that absorb up to 20% of thrust)

        you exaggerate a little. The drop in thrust due to the design of a flat nozzle is about 5-7%. this drop occurs due to an increase in the number of shock waves in the gas stream. But 5% is a lot, if we talk about engine efficiency
    7. Cyril G ...
      Cyril G ... 12 May 2020 15: 32 New
      +2
      Terms of development and refinement of the engine usually exceed those of the aircraft. Because there is nothing terrible this time.
      Secondly. The Al-41F1 engine makes it possible to call the plane the fifth generation,
    8. Voyager
      Voyager 13 May 2020 12: 41 New
      +1
      Quote: ROSS 42
      If not, then why the hell should I release with the engine of the first stage, if in the future modernization is needed?

      Such that the start of mass production of new high-tech equipment is not for ice cream. This requires a lot of effort and provides jobs.
      Quote: ROSS 42
      Russian production is not ready to supply the RF Armed Forces with the latest weapons

      You're lying.
  7. Andrey Mikhaylov
    Andrey Mikhaylov 12 May 2020 07: 33 New
    +5
    No one said that the new engine will be an easy walk, good luck with your development and testing.
    1. K-612-O
      K-612-O 12 May 2020 18: 27 New
      +2
      Everyone who said this here has nothing to do with development, testing and production. Just a sect of witnesses of communism in a single head
  8. pmkemcity
    pmkemcity 12 May 2020 07: 39 New
    -2
    On May 8, RIA Novosti published excerpts from an interview with Deputy Minister of Defense Alexei Krivoruchko, including and on the topic of the started production of Su-57 aircraft. The deputy minister spoke about the imminent start of the supply of serial equipment, and also noted that the plans for two-stage serial production remain in force.

    Isn’t that the one that’s Krivoruchko who used to say to Mikhalkov - we’ll leave one at a time, if anything, we are geologists ...
  9. Hermit21
    Hermit21 12 May 2020 08: 05 New
    +7
    A modified version of the 117 engine, AL-41F1S, is already being produced in a large series and is actively used by troops on Su-35S fighters


    On the contrary, the 117 is an improved version of the 117C with more thrust and a fully electronic control system. And for reference, the "outdated" AL-41-1F differs by 80% from the AL-31F in specific characteristics and is technologically superior to the F119 on the Raptor. It's not about generations. Moreover, this is a simplification for the layman
    1. EvilLion
      EvilLion 12 May 2020 09: 38 New
      0
      F119 is a little larger and gives noticeably greater thrust-free thrust, in this regard, the F-22 has slightly more acceleration capabilities before the battle, when in any case everyone cuts the fast and the furious, after which the Su-57 will most likely have some advantage in dynamic characteristics possibly smaller and better aerodynamics. Well, the emf of the Su-57 is newer.
      1. Hermit21
        Hermit21 12 May 2020 09: 58 New
        +1
        For greater thrust-free traction and lower drag in F119, the bypass ratio was cut to 0,2. But because of this, economy suffers. The optimal mode for it is afterburning flight at M = 1,5-1,6 at an altitude of 10-12 kilometers
        1. EvilLion
          EvilLion 12 May 2020 10: 24 New
          -1
          EMNIP his typical consumption. Optimality happens for some specific parameters. I understand that M = 1.5-1.6 is just an achievable speed at H = 10-12k meters, without afterburner.
          1. Hermit21
            Hermit21 12 May 2020 10: 37 New
            +3
            No, these are altitude and speed parameters at which the engine will show the best performance.
            According to data from open sources, the consumption of F119 is 1,943 kilograms per kilogram-force per hour. The AL-41-F1S has 770 grams per kilogram-force per hour. And the combat radius speaks for itself: 760 km at Khryapa, 1600 at Su-35S. You can also compare the TWR indicator, it is also not in favor of the American. By no means do I want to say that the F119 is a bad engine. At one time he was a breakthrough. But now he no longer shines
            1. EvilLion
              EvilLion 12 May 2020 11: 38 New
              0
              I remember watching the info on the consumption of engines, and it was about the same for everyone. Could not have included F119. But for the F-22, the same wiki brings a fuel reserve of 8200 kg. With such costs, it’s not very clear how to get even half the combat radius of the Su-35, except at the expense of internal. placing weapons when compared with the Su-35 with the suspension of the same 8 missiles. Moreover, such a flow rate is already very close to the consumption of conventional engines afterburner (2350 g / kgf). If for ed. 30 will increase the afterburner thrust by a similar method, it just makes no sense.
              1. Bad_gr
                Bad_gr 12 May 2020 14: 42 New
                +4
                By the way, the F-22, for the sake of stealth, has no wedges in the air intakes, therefore the maximum speed is in the region of 1800-1900 km / h, and not the second with copecks, as in its advertisement.
                And if you compare the sweep of the wing with ours, then its cruising speed should be lower than ours.

                1. voyaka uh
                  voyaka uh 12 May 2020 15: 46 New
                  +6
                  "The F-22, for the sake of stealth, has no wedges in the air intakes" ///
                  ----
                  F-22 is all designed for the sake of stealth, and not for the sake of speed.
                  This is its meaning and essence.
                  1. Ka-52
                    Ka-52 13 May 2020 04: 41 New
                    +1
                    F-22 is all designed for the sake of stealth, and not for the sake of speed.
                    This is its meaning and essence.

                    his speed requirements came from his destination. He is not a high-altitude interceptor, but a plane of gaining air supremacy. 2M +/- him by the eyes.
                2. Hermit21
                  Hermit21 12 May 2020 16: 01 New
                  0
                  Unregulated airspace, to be more precise. Because of this, he does not like large angles of attack - the engines do not have enough incoming air
                3. Ka-52
                  Ka-52 13 May 2020 04: 39 New
                  +1
                  By the way, the F-22, for the sake of stealth, has no wedges in the air intakes, therefore the maximum speed is in the region of 1800-1900 km / h, and not the second with copecks, as in its advertisement.
                  And if you compare the sweep of the wing with ours, then its cruising speed should be lower than ours.

                  the F-22 is a powerful engine that allows you to fend off some of the aerodynamics problems caused by the layout. The Su-57 has a classic influx in the area of ​​the leading edge of the wing, which allows increasing track stability at high speeds. This is visible in your drawing. The Americans have less (influx), in view of the task of reducing the EPR. To do this, they had to model for a long time the angles of the front of the fuselage and air intakes in order to choose the optimal one for creating the necessary vortex bundles.
              2. Hermit21
                Hermit21 12 May 2020 15: 59 New
                +3
                Not the same.) For 30 years, progress has come forward, and you can achieve high after-thrust without drastic measures such as cutting the secondary circuit. For the same AL-41-1F, Vika used to write 9600 kgs, which is not bad at all. Su-57 and with them develops confident afterburning supersonic. You just need something new with a lot of groundwork for modernization
                1. Bad_gr
                  Bad_gr 12 May 2020 20: 27 New
                  +3
                  By the way, for the passenger supersonic Tu-144D aircraft, the RD-36-51A was developed - the world's first gas turbine engine designed for a long supersonic flight without using an afterburner.
                  Supersound without using afterburner .... Moreover, not just supersonic, but almost 2 M:
                  Cruising speed, km / h 2120
                  Maximum speed, km / h 2340 (M = 2.15)
                  1. Bad_gr
                    Bad_gr 13 May 2020 09: 44 New
                    +1
                    Quote: Bad_gr
                    for the passenger supersonic aircraft Tu-144D was developed RD-36-51A

                  2. 75 Sergey
                    75 Sergey 13 May 2020 12: 50 New
                    0
                    And everyone forgot about RD-36-61, although it was even more interesting.
      2. K-612-O
        K-612-O 12 May 2020 18: 28 New
        +1
        Afterburner fight is strong !!!! belay
        1. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh 13 May 2020 10: 12 New
          +3
          90% of the fights between fighter jets were on
          subsonic speeds. Supersound is needed either for interception or for
          running away from pursuit.
  10. Vasily Ponomarev
    Vasily Ponomarev 12 May 2020 08: 49 New
    +2
    > The exact number of the first stage fighters has not yet been disclosed. We only know that they will be produced until the middle of the decade, after which the so-called. second stage of the series. Products 30 will be installed on all new aircraft until the completion of the second existing order. The share of such equipment in the total expected fleet of aircraft also remains unknown.
    roughly the general alignment of the article, I did not learn anything new by dates, I just realized that there will be
  11. Ros 56
    Ros 56 12 May 2020 09: 04 New
    +2
    Dear, enough water to crush the mortar, read comments, some in the forest, some for firewood. That's when the striped hairs once again stir, as after the Vanguard, it means that our silent work correctly, and God himself commanded to troll opponents. The striped 17 intelligence and really don’t know a damn, so we chose Trump or not.
    1. novel66
      novel66 12 May 2020 10: 48 New
      +7
      most importantly, we ourselves do not know whether we chose Trump or not lol
  12. Mokaev Hakim
    Mokaev Hakim 12 May 2020 10: 44 New
    +2
    Please tell the uninformed, the abundance of panels and hatches fixed with rivets, like a phoner on self-tapping screws, is this normal? Or just because the photos of the test aircraft are presented, it is so "roughly made". Worried about build quality
    1. Ros 56
      Ros 56 12 May 2020 12: 06 New
      0
      On this issue, contact the CIA, they lie how they breathe and maybe they will tell you something, well, in an extreme case, in the Chinese Sokha, they are of the same berry field.
    2. psiho117
      psiho117 12 May 2020 12: 14 New
      +4
      Quote: Mokaev Hakim
      this is normal?

      Yes. On the plane, the left dviglo was completely changed, I had to cut the case, then rivet it. On the serial everything will be beautiful and smooth, because special paint / coating of modern combat aircraft is part of a package of measures to reduce radar visibility; any protruding rivet raises the EPR.
      1. Mokaev Hakim
        Mokaev Hakim 16 May 2020 15: 51 New
        0
        Thanks for the answer
  13. well
    well 12 May 2020 12: 51 New
    +5
    You can talk as much as you like about the advantages of the SU-57, development prospects, etc. But until the aircraft is put into service and put into the army, the SU-57 remains just a project, a prototype, and talk of superiority over the f-22, f-35, j-20 remains just talk.
    1. Ka-52
      Ka-52 13 May 2020 05: 37 New
      0
      You can talk as much as you like about the advantages of the SU-57, development prospects, etc. But until the aircraft is put into service and put into the army, the SU-57 remains just a project, a prototype, and talk of superiority over the f-22, f-35, j-20 remains just talk.

      Sorry, but you write nonsense. Both the project and the prototype according to the working documentation are created according to the formulated requirements of the customer. And the customer formulates technical requirements in accordance with the situation that has developed as a result of potential threats. Therefore, to compare the development correctly and there is nothing reprehensible in this
  14. iouris
    iouris 12 May 2020 13: 09 New
    +1
    In the official translation of GOST R ISO 9001-2015, the English language term “Context” is translated as “Organization Environment”.
    According to ISO 9001 version 2015, clause 4.1. The organization is required to understand, track, and analyze the context in which it operates. The context in the standard refers to external and internal factors, as well as the risks associated with them, which are significant in terms of the goals and strategic direction of the organization and which affect the ability of the organization’s quality management system to achieve the expected result (s).
    But in Russian, in addition to swear words, nothing can be said.
  15. Aircraft manufacturer
    Aircraft manufacturer 12 May 2020 19: 34 New
    +1
    I don’t think that we will be able to produce 10 such aircraft per year. Now we are dealing with two somehow. Lack of components and adequate funding.
  16. 75 Sergey
    75 Sergey 12 May 2020 19: 56 New
    -4
    in general - 5 with a minus!
    Let's admit that a full-fledged five will not work out of the Su-57, the plane is built around the engine, and not vice versa.
    I understand that the destructive end of the 80s and the disastrous 90s make themselves felt, and now they are working in the pocket, and not for the Country.
    1. Ka-52
      Ka-52 13 May 2020 05: 53 New
      +1
      the plane is built around the engine, and not vice versa.

      sheer stupidity. A plane is not built around the engine. First, the requirements for the aircraft are formed by flight and technical characteristics: range, speed, mass, wing load, etc. Based on these requirements, an arrangement is created with certain aerodynamic characteristics. Separately, the engine is selected with data that ensures that the requirements are met: parameters for traction, specific consumption, weight, dimensions, etc. Or the task is announced for the design of a new propulsion system.
      1. 75 Sergey
        75 Sergey 13 May 2020 12: 37 New
        0
        Pick up the engine ... for twenty years.
        How many projects have not grown because of this?
        Make a great dvigun and it will fly, and an excellent glider with a horseradish engine, this is it. what we have.
        1. Ka-52
          Ka-52 13 May 2020 13: 05 New
          +1
          Make a great dvigun and it will fly,

          hmm ... flies .... only how and where. I wonder how boldly you talk about what you don’t understand)
          with horseradish engine

          Yes? Well, and by what parameters is it worthless? Which of the tasks assigned to our IFIs, it can not perform because of the propulsion system?
          1. 75 Sergey
            75 Sergey 13 May 2020 15: 14 New
            -3
            Well, since you understand a lot and fucking, so list what he performed ...
  17. Eug
    Eug 21 May 2020 07: 38 New
    0
    I would like to understand the dimensions of ed.30. So far, the increase in engine thrust has been accompanied, albeit by a small, but increase in size. The air consumption will definitely increase - the air intakes on the Su-57 are "exaggerated" as for 117. I wonder if it will be possible to scale it down for the LMFS or will they make a new engine? As for me, one engine ed. 30 in thrust for a small one is just right ... although, of course, two smaller ones are better, they will make it possible to make a more harmonious aircraft. Still, ed. 117 (I am guided by it) is too big both in length and in diameter as for a small plane. You can try two non-afterburning ed. 30, but this is a lot of thrust with an insignificant change in diameter.
  18. FRoman1984
    FRoman1984 17 June 2020 21: 10 New
    0
    And the rivets (in the photo) on the details of the airframe how are correlated with the declared stealth? Behind the cordon, our plane is called "dirty", since it has nothing to do with stealth.
    Put on the Su-35 Belka, Al-41F-1 and Su-57 will not be better.
  19. FRoman1984
    FRoman1984 17 June 2020 21: 18 New
    0
    A funny phrase in the article “there is no hurry” in the context of the fact that both the engine and the aircraft have been in development since the mid-2000s. Indeed, nowhere, given the su-57 entering the VKS with a new engine in the mid-2020s (if), then 20 years on a motor is almost a generation. Horror.
    Americans will rearm the air force, navy, marines, national guard and all their satellites on f-35 by the time we have formed the first regiments of full-fledged su-57. Forever behind.
    1. Arkon
      Arkon 18 June 2020 17: 50 New
      0
      Quote: FRoman1984
      Americans will rearm the air force, navy, marines, national guard and all their satellites on f-35 by the time we have formed the first regiments of full-fledged su-57


      So we are not deploying the Su-57, we are afraid to frighten off. Let everyone re-arm in order to "finally overtake us." Rather, too.