Military Review

The Russian army never came up: about the Italian armored jeep IVECO

79
The Russian army never came up: about the Italian armored jeep IVECO

As you know, the Russian army currently uses the Russian-made Tiger family of armored vehicles as armored vehicles. But it could happen that instead of the Tigers, the Russian army could use the Italian Iveco M65E19WM 4x4 armored vehicles, better known in Russia as the Lynx. Where did the Italian armored cars appear in our army from and why they never came up for adoption, let's try to answer in this article.


Italian Iveco


The first appearance of Iveco armored vehicles in Russia was in 2009: two light armored vehicles Iveco M65E19WM 4x4, better known as LMV (Light Multirole Vehicle - light multi-purpose vehicle), purchased and imported KAMAZ to Russia at its own expense. A test cycle was called as the import target.

We note that Italian armored cars are unlikely to have appeared in Russia without coordination with the highest military-political circles, and Anatoly Serdyukov, who launched large-scale reforms at that time, was undertaking large-scale reforms: changing the organizational structure of the army and the procurement system, reducing the number of troops, launching the rearmament program and etc. Therefore, shortly after the appearance of IVECO in Russia, reports appeared in the media that the "Italians" would soon be adopted by the Russian army. While tests were carried out on the first two units of the Lynx (Lince - ital. The name of the armored car), in early 2010, KamAZ bought two more armored cars, and at the end of the year the Ministry of Defense purchased as many as 10 IVECOs, "assembled" at KamAZ by screwing on the plate with the inscription "Lynx" on the radiator. The machines were sent for testing.


In the future, the Ministry of Defense signed an agreement with IVECO on the joint assembly of the "Lynxes" at the enterprise in Voronezh; since 2011, it has been planned to collect 1775 armored cars for the Russian military department in five years. With the cost of one “Italian” at that time more than 20 million rubles, the entire procurement program was estimated at more than 30 billion. At the same time, Serdyukov planned to increase the purchase of the “Rysy” to 3 thousand units, even a corresponding application was sent. However, in 2013, the production of an armored car, by the way, adopted by the Russian army in 2010, was discontinued.

What's wrong?



In 2013, already under the new Minister of Defense, Sergei Shoigu, information appeared that the Russian army was abandoning the Italian armored car in favor of domestic development, as it turned out later, it was the Tiger armored car. There were many reasons for the refusal at that time, even more assumptions were made, both supporters of the refusal and ardent defenders of the Italian armored car appeared.

Earlier, the Ministry of Defense explained the need for mass purchase of light armored vehicles "Lynx" plans to create several light brigades that were supposed to move on these armored vehicles. In addition, they were supposed to equip special forces, reconnaissance, airborne forces, that is, those units that are fighting away from good roads. This was one of the reasons for abandoning the Lynx in favor of the Tiger. In essence, the MRAP class armored car, designed primarily for use on paved roads as an escort or patrol car, tried to put into service units that did not even dream of moving along the highway. The second reason was called the small capacity of the armored car, which accommodated only five people and a small amount of space for equipment and ammunition.


In 2016, information appeared that the Lynx armored vehicles remaining in the arsenal of the Russian army would go into service with the military police. It was assumed that armored vehicles would be used to escort convoys and patrol the perimeters of military installations. At the same time, the reason for the rejection of the "Lynx" was called insufficient patency.

According to the representative of the Ministry of Defense, "on the basis of tests conducted from November 2013 to December 2014, the Lynx (IVECO) in the area of ​​patency, armor protection and weapons was not recognized as fully meeting the requirements of the Russian military."

Most likely, having thoroughly studied all the capabilities of the Italian armored car, the Russian Ministry of Defense came to the conclusion that the domestic Tiger, at least the big complaints of the Russian family of armored vehicles from the military, would be better suited to use as an light off-road armored car and perform other tasks. did not cause.

Perhaps the rejection of the “Italian” has other reasons, because the decision was made at the highest level, but they will not be brought to us. So we confine ourselves to the option where the Italian road armored jeep simply did not fit the Russian army in the quality in which it was supposed to be used. We will not consider the option with the continued procurement of Italian armored cars and the consequences for the Russian army from this.
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  1. Mavrikiy
    Mavrikiy 7 May 2020 08: 44 New
    +8
    Perhaps there are other reasons for the rejection of the "Italian"
    Economic, spare parts for $. request
    1. venik
      venik 7 May 2020 09: 54 New
      14
      Quote: Mavrikiy
      Economic, spare parts for $.

      ======
      And that too! good In addition, the "Lynx" made of imported components, even when assembled at KAMAZ, cost almost twice as much as the "Tiger"!
      1. Pike
        Pike 7 May 2020 18: 52 New
        +2
        It seems like three times, I remember the cost of both cars was quoted in the press at that time ...
        1. venik
          venik 7 May 2020 19: 13 New
          0
          Quote: Pike
          It seems like three times, I remember the cost of both cars was quoted in the press at that time ...

          ========
          Maybe! I don’t remember the exact numbers anymore, but I remembered that it’s not at%, but at times! drinks
  2. figwam
    figwam 7 May 2020 08: 45 New
    17
    Sanctions would stop Iveco’s assembly and we would be left with nothing.
    1. The leader of the Redskins
      The leader of the Redskins 7 May 2020 09: 47 New
      -26
      The whole article can be explained by the morality of the fable "The Fox and the Grapes", where the fox, without having tasted the berries, began to argue that he was both sour and tasteless ...
      So it is with us - the opportunity to get a modern armored car broke off, so they began to praise the "tiger". Although they both have advantages and disadvantages ...
      1. The leader of the Redskins
        The leader of the Redskins 7 May 2020 10: 46 New
        -17
        In, the minusers woke up ... Something was late for jobs ...
        1. Bersaglieri
          Bersaglieri 7 May 2020 15: 21 New
          -14
          "Minusators" - from "pots-shkolota" (s) usually.
      2. Bersaglieri
        Bersaglieri 7 May 2020 15: 20 New
        -12
        And there is. By # materiel
  3. Aristarkh Lyudvigovich
    Aristarkh Lyudvigovich 7 May 2020 08: 46 New
    38
    The explosion on a TM-62M mine of an armored vehicle Lynx (IVECO 65E19WM) of the RF Armed Forces in Syria with our soldiers. The soldiers were not injured, the car worked perfectly. An Italian vehicle can withstand a 6 kg explosive blast without seriously wounded or even "two hundredths" from the crew.
    1. Aristarkh Lyudvigovich
      Aristarkh Lyudvigovich 7 May 2020 08: 50 New
      11
      In Naberezhnye Chelny, Tatarstan, JSC "Remdizel" assembled armored vehicles "Lynx" (Iveco LMV). The plant had two contracts for their assembly - from 2013 for 207 cars, and from 2015 for the assembly of 83 units. The machines were handed over to the customer. Interestingly, due to the sanctions of the European Union from 2014, the logistics had to be changed - if the LMV cars of the first batch were delivered to Russia by trucks, then the second had to be transported by sea due to the ban on their transportation by some EU countries. The amount of Remdizel's proceeds from works on 290 Lynxes is only 7,8 million rubles, which came from the addition of standard hours (it takes 24 standard hours to assemble each machine from three modules). Photo from the site of JSC "Remdizel".
      1. Name Surname
        Name Surname 7 May 2020 11: 13 New
        +2
        1st module - the machine itself, 2nd module - nameplate "Ry", 3rd module - nameplate "sm"?
    2. Insurgent
      Insurgent 7 May 2020 09: 39 New
      +5
      Quote: Aristarkh Ludwigovich
      The Italian vehicle can withstand the explosion of 6 kg of explosives without seriously wounded or even "two hundredths" from the crew

      Apparently "three hundredth", and not" two hundredths ", because I know enough cases when" heavy three hundredths "after recovery returned to duty, or everyday normal, civilian life, but "two hundredth" - never No. request



      Such plates, with excellent quality double-sided lamination, scattered dill in our positions, using "propaganda" 120mm mines, with the aim of moral and psychological suppression of drugs ...
    3. venik
      venik 7 May 2020 09: 59 New
      -2
      Quote: Aristarkh Ludwigovich
      An Italian vehicle can withstand a 6 kg explosive blast without seriously wounded or even "two hundredths" from the crew.

      ======
      This, of course, is its advantage (perhaps the only one) .... But with ballistic protection there are problems!
      1. Alexandra
        Alexandra 8 May 2020 13: 18 New
        +1
        Ballistic protection of the car's interior is from 7,62 mm B-32 rifle armor-piercing incendiary bullet. "Problems" are where the ballistic protection of the interior is only from 5,45 mm and 7,62 mm PS automatic bullets with a steel core.
    4. Bersaglieri
      Bersaglieri 7 May 2020 15: 22 New
      0
      Delta (c) worked
  4. Mikhail3
    Mikhail3 7 May 2020 08: 46 New
    -10
    Oh yeah! The Ministry of Defense "carefully studied all the possibilities" ...
  5. donavi49
    donavi49 7 May 2020 08: 51 New
    15
    The Ministry of Defense concluded that for use as a light off-road armored car


    But as the crush with the Americans in Syria showed, off the road, that the Tiger, that Oshkosh, that Cyprus - buried on the bottom and that’s it.

    However, Oshkosh, Cyprus and Iveco are able to save l / s from the most relevant damaging factor (IED). No, of course, if 3 bags are buried and undermined on the way, it’ll break. But the ideology of MRI and simply elevated explosion-proof vehicles with a complete saturation of parts is built on this. The buckets dug under the road become ineffective. This means that the women are forced to make powerful VCA - and this is a greater risk of getting at the stage of collection, promotion and bookmarking. Also, instead of 5-6 IEDs, 1 IED is laid, which is also generally better for the occupation / patrol forces wink .
    1. Bad_gr
      Bad_gr 7 May 2020 12: 08 New
      14
      Quote: donavi49
      But the ideology of MRI and simply elevated explosion-proof vehicles with a complete saturation of parts is built on this.

      It doesn't hurt to remember that the "Tiger" MO ordered with the third class of protection, and then suddenly rolled out claims, why they did not correspond to the 5th. The police immediately ordered a 5th - and got them.
      By the way, "The Tiger was still rejected due to the fact that the engine was Comins, that is, not Russian, but for Iveco, for some reason, such questions did not arise.
      The purchase of Iveco, (like the Mistral) was purely political.
  6. BARKAS
    BARKAS 7 May 2020 08: 58 New
    +7
    Why compare completely different cars on IVECO except for the machine gun and the radio station there is nothing more to install, if it is a replacement then an UAZ in the war zone, and the replacement is expensive, albeit not bad.
    1. Alexandra
      Alexandra 8 May 2020 13: 43 New
      -1
      Quote: BARKAS
      Why compare completely different cars


      These are cars of one weight category. The only difference is that the ASN-233115 has six seats:

      http://roe.ru/catalog/sukhoputnye-vosyka/bronirovannye-avtomobili/asn-233115/

      And the Lynx has five.
    2. Alf
      Alf 8 May 2020 17: 46 New
      0
      Quote: BARKAS
      Why compare completely different cars

      What are they different? Only to the extent of the manufacturer’s nonsense.
  7. knn54
    knn54 7 May 2020 09: 01 New
    11
    "Strange" act of Serdyukov.
    The British gave a lot of negative feedback on the experience of operating in Afghanistan. There are much "advanced" equipment from Germany or Switzerland.
    Shoigu did the right thing. Italian technology there is only 20-30%, the rest - German, American, Dutch and other countries. 3 countries make armor, a German transmission, an Italian engine. A bunch of American components.
    ALL NATO. And without spare parts TODAY the army would be in a deep ... pit.
    And the third class of protection "Tiger" was "registered" in the technical specification for development ... for some reason.
    1. donavi49
      donavi49 7 May 2020 09: 09 New
      13
      Well, another brainchild is already Shoigu.

      This one has a CAT engine + RR water cannons. ALL NATO! Build mega-series. Bought through gaskets.


      BK-16 - has a Seatek engine from lush Lombardy and Castoldi water cannons from near Milan (someone successfully went for shopping laughing ).


      Both types are being built in a large series, import substitution is not even planned.
      1. Insurgent
        Insurgent 7 May 2020 09: 57 New
        +8
        Quote: donavi49
        Well, another brainchild is already Shoigu.

        This one has a CAT engine + RR water cannons. ALL NATO! Build mega-series. Bought through gaskets.



        BK-16 - has a Seatek engine from lush Lombardy and Castoldi water cannons from near Milan (someone successfully went for shopping laughing ).


        Both types are being built in a large series, import substitution is not even planned.


        Wow! But for the simple reason that the line of Russian engines simply has no analogues of high-speed engines and water cannons ...

        And it takes time and money to develop and establish production ...


        But to create your own cool an armored car class MRAP, Russia has it all.

        But for some reason he is not ... request Neither under Serdyukov, nor under Shoigu.
        1. Bad_gr
          Bad_gr 7 May 2020 12: 26 New
          +4
          Quote: Insurgent
          But to create your own cool armored car class MRAP, Russia has it all.
          But for some reason he is not ... request Neither under Serdyukov, nor under Shoigu.

          A lot of these cars are produced:




          1. Insurgent
            Insurgent 7 May 2020 12: 45 New
            +5
            Quote: Bad_gr
            A lot of these cars are produced:

            Then please explain where the publications about the absence of a "light" class MRAP vehicle in the RF Armed Forces come from, which some of the samples you submitted are not, and the "Punisher" is not an army car at all?

            Moreover, publications with opinions not from bazaar experts, but from those quite close to the military-industrial complex and the army ...
            1. Bad_gr
              Bad_gr 7 May 2020 13: 28 New
              +4
              Quote: Insurgent
              Then please explain where the publications about the absence in the RF Armed Forces of a "light" class MRAP vehicle come from

              So, in order for them to appear in the troops, they need to be ordered and bought. MRAP class cars, mainly for police functions for the armed forces, are more suitable for armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles - can this be connected?
              Quote: Insurgent
              and "Punisher", so not an army car at all
              I don’t argue here, but the car is made with MRAP technologies, that is, for our industry to make a car for any tasks is not a problem, there would be a buyer.
              1. Insurgent
                Insurgent 7 May 2020 13: 59 New
                +1
                Quote: Bad_gr
                So, in order for them to appear in the troops, they need to be ordered and bought.

                That's what I wrote about that, that they are not in the troops, and those that are, the domestic "Tiger" and the foreign car "Lynx", according to certain parameters, the army does not satisfy.

                Quote: Bad_gr
                there would be a buyer.

                yes ,with money...
              2. Graz
                Graz 7 May 2020 14: 03 New
                0
                Mirapses are needed in the army for organizing supply and supply convoys for changing personnel to positions, well maybe intelligence will come in handy somewhere, EVERYTHING
            2. V.I.P.
              V.I.P. 7 May 2020 20: 35 New
              0
              On Typhoon, the tires, engine and gearbox are Russian? ... Everything was imported
            3. would
              would 9 May 2020 08: 40 New
              +2
              Then please explain where the publications about the absence of a "light" class MRAP vehicle in the RF Armed Forces come from, which some of the samples you submitted are not, and the "Punisher" is not an army car at all?


              This is explained in an elementary way - they are not purchased. Or they buy, but not everywhere. There are many reasons and you can paint a lot.

              And there are 4x4 mine-protected vehicles: Scorpion LSHA-2B, KamAZ-53949 "Typhoonok", modification of the Tiger Tiger-M. There were also developments that did not enter service. Also, do not forget that you just have to place a large order for development and purchase and everyone will start to work hard.

              But there is no order.
      2. Genry
        Genry 7 May 2020 16: 21 New
        +4
        Quote: donavi49
        Both types are built in a large series,

        Why didn't they say "a huge series"?

        BK-16 from 2014 built as many as 7 pieces. Plus 2 on trials.
        Raptor from 2014 as many as 16 pieces.
        Even "small-scale" production does not work here.

        For such quantities, leading expensive OCD makes no sense. And the more finished components are used, the cheaper the unit of production.
        1. donavi49
          donavi49 7 May 2020 17: 03 New
          -1
          Total of those contracted for 30. For comparison:
          Grachata - 24
          Sable (this is a small boat for 6 border guards with a machine gun and German diesels) - 32
          Mongoose (this boat is half the size of Sable by 3 border guards and with German diesels) - 75-80 pieces.
          Tugs of the project 90600, 400t Pell kids - 50 pieces

          Here Raptor + BK16 / 18 - is in the TOP-5 of the largest series of modern shipbuilding wink
          1. Genry
            Genry 7 May 2020 17: 22 New
            +2
            Quote: donavi49
            Total of the contracted for 30.

            So what do you want to say that there is large-scale production (in fact - piece)?
            Or what is necessary for each product to use an engine only of its own production? Then OCD with certification, testing and organization of production will turn out to be a hundred times more expensive than the purchase of finished imported.
            1. donavi49
              donavi49 7 May 2020 17: 35 New
              +1
              I just point out that the Raptors and BK16 are in the TOP5 by the number of units built (even taking into account the border service and all kinds of tugboats) in Russia.

              Piece - these are all sorts of corvettes 20385/386
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 7 May 2020 11: 06 New
      +3
      Quote: knn54
      "Strange" act of Serdyukov.
      The British gave a lot of negative feedback on the experience of operating in Afghanistan. There are much "advanced" equipment from Germany or Switzerland.

      The technique is there, but who will give it. During the tests of the "Centaur", we also wanted to test the "Boxer" - the Germans refused to provide it. So the Italians turned out to be the best choice available to us.
      1. Alexandra
        Alexandra 8 May 2020 14: 33 New
        -1
        Lightweight Iveco LMV was developed even before the Americans occupied Iraq in 2003, and in the process realized that they needed MRAP. In Afghanistan, they still realized that they needed not just MRAP, but cars capable of moving not only on asphalt, but also off-road. I mean lung MRAP. Since then, nothing better than Iveco LMV has appeared in the MRAP light class (well, not the four-seater Oshkosh L-ATV in the end), except for the LMV-2:

    3. pereselenec
      pereselenec 10 June 2020 17: 18 New
      0
      Quote: knn54
      "Strange" act of Serdyukov.

      Say this in person to those soldiers who had become trotted after a TM-62M mine detonation in Syria:

  8. Maks1995
    Maks1995 7 May 2020 09: 07 New
    -8
    And again, there is no important thing: how much did you manage to collect it?
    A billion bucks under the Italians .... It can be seen that under the Effective Manager Serdyukov Putin didn’t work with the Tricky Plan ....

    And it’s good to compare the Lynx and the Tiger next to (with drawings), maybe, on the basis of the Lynx they hung a kit more powerful ???
    1. Bad_gr
      Bad_gr 7 May 2020 12: 34 New
      +6
      Quote: Max1995
      And it’s good to compare the Lynx and the Tiger next to (with drawings), maybe, on the basis of the Lynx they hung a kit more powerful ???

      We have already compared them more than once, even at the time when it was only decided to purchase them.
      Iveco was originally a purely civilian car, which was hung with all kinds of protection. The armored capsules, which are sometimes remembered, are not even there, unlike the same "Tiger".
      On the passability "Tiger" loses outright (in net somewhere there is a video with these tests.)
      It’s worth adding here that their keromic armor does not hold our frosts.
      1. Maks1995
        Maks1995 7 May 2020 17: 54 New
        0
        Here, you in 2 words told almost everything. Thank.
        Wait a minute straight to the plus from the heart, not like some))))
      2. Bad_gr
        Bad_gr 7 May 2020 20: 09 New
        +1
        Quote: Bad_gr
        on which they hung all protection. The armored capsules, which are sometimes remembered, are not even there, unlike the same "Tiger".

        Iveco:
        • Red - ballistic protection
        • Gray - armored glass
        • Green - standard panels
        • Blue - metal frame


        Bottom photo "Tiger"
  9. APASUS
    APASUS 7 May 2020 09: 08 New
    +2
    Here the politician most likely played a role. The main factor most likely was the origin of the car, we can’t buy MRAP class cars from NATO countries
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 7 May 2020 13: 32 New
      +3
      Quote: APASUS
      Here the politician most likely played a role.

      More precisely, the nonsense of politicians, because initially to anyone who knows the production and operation of military equipment, it becomes clear that with a procurement scale of thousands of units in any situation, it is more profitable to develop and produce them in Russia.
      Quote: APASUS
      The main factor most likely was the origin of the car,

      Berlusconi's personal friend was more expensive than others.
      Quote: APASUS
      we can’t buy MRAP class cars from NATO countries

      Naturally, we cannot - with such volumes without pants, we will remain even on this secondary technique. Yes, and side problems dofiga.
  10. Asad
    Asad 7 May 2020 09: 10 New
    +4
    No matter how trite it sounds, you still have to try to produce all your own! Let not everything work out right away, but the "partners" will not throw it!
  11. gabonskijfront
    gabonskijfront 7 May 2020 09: 17 New
    -1
    In Italian, now no one is fighting, it’s like in the evening where everything is haute couture, come in a miserable rushing at the port.
    1. BREAKTHROUGH READY
      BREAKTHROUGH READY 7 May 2020 09: 28 New
      +6
      Iveco LMV is in service with a dozen countries and is actively used from Afghanistan to Africa.
      1. Bad_gr
        Bad_gr 7 May 2020 12: 45 New
        +4
        Quote: READY FOR BREAKTHROUGH
        Iveco LMV is in service with a dozen countries and is actively used from Afghanistan to Africa.

        The enterprise that produces the "Tiger" also produces the BTR-80, which are in service with 4 dozen countries, and when creating the "Tiger", the experience of operating the entire line of armored personnel carriers, from the BTR-60 to the BTR-82, could not but be used.
  12. Double major
    Double major 7 May 2020 09: 29 New
    +7
    There, as I recall, there were problems with starting at below -15 degrees. The Italian Centaur was also present at the trials with the Lynxes, the tank had to be pulled on the cable, and the tower could not be deployed - the rotary electronics controlling the process froze ... The climate is different, there are no roads, where can we find this European?
    1. Alexandra
      Alexandra 8 May 2020 15: 23 New
      -2
      On the LMV, a modification of the diesel used on light trucks and minibuses Iveco Daily.

      where do we need this European weakness ?!




      For the Norwegian theater, of course.)
  13. Strashila
    Strashila 7 May 2020 10: 27 New
    +4
    It all starts with the simple, and what the customer needs. From a modest design experience, I can say, to disassemble and study, in fact to do your own, is always real. I do not think that the Italians have something beyond abstruse there. You can contact the Yuarovtsy, those on the basis of our Urals rivets technology, they have experience in manufacturing since the era of the USSR. You can drink tea with the Kazakhs, see what their experience with the same Yuarovtsy led. Now captured equipment is coming from Syria, you can send specialists to Yemen and study the trophies there. But there is only one result, Russian technological and production capabilities. If in the days of the USSR, technology and samples of materials would have been simply stolen, now they are to give all this wealth to. Private traders are pissed off, they are shaking for loot, stolen and pulled over a hill. So prosrali own aluminum industry.
  14. Aviator_
    Aviator_ 7 May 2020 11: 54 New
    +1
    Yes, I remember that this Italian miracle also got stuck in the snow. Put Marshal Taburetkin there and send mine to Palmyra.
    1. Alexandra
      Alexandra 8 May 2020 15: 49 New
      -1
      We put chains on the wheels, it stopped getting stuck. The Michelin XML tires that the LMV was bought with have a tread pattern designed for sand and mud, not snow. For the Tiger, along with the KI-115 tires, Michelin XZL tires are used. Their tread pattern for snow is calculated.

      Quote: Aviator_
      Put Marshal Taburetkin there and send mine to Palmyra.


      In 2017, Major General Pyotr Milyukhin lost both legs and an eye during a land mine explosion in Syria. Of the six people in the car, four were killed. Evil tongues slander that the general was traveling in an armored car "Tiger" when the land mine was blown up:

      https://www.rbc.ru/society/06/03/2017/58bccf439a7947abbdee4871

      After this episode: "Armored vehicles" Lynx "and" Typhoon-K "were sent to Syria for sappers of the MPMC of the Armed Forces of Russia"

      https://bmpd.livejournal.com/2488644.html
  15. iouris
    iouris 7 May 2020 13: 32 New
    -1
    Is chain mail short?
  16. Ded_Mazay
    Ded_Mazay 7 May 2020 15: 08 New
    +2
    The main disadvantage of Iveco is that it is Iveco.
    Too many "features of exploitation" give rise to its foreign origin.
    I don’t understand at all whose “bright” head the “wonderful” idea to buy them came up with.
    1. Alf
      Alf 7 May 2020 19: 35 New
      +2
      Quote: Ded_Mazay
      I don’t understand at all whose “bright” head the “wonderful” idea to buy them came up with.

      In the same as the Mistral.
      1. Ded_Mazay
        Ded_Mazay 8 May 2020 11: 01 New
        0
        Maybe, but not a fact. The fact that the stool has put a squiggle does not mean that he himself, without "good" advisers, invented it.
        1. Alf
          Alf 8 May 2020 17: 32 New
          0
          Quote: Ded_Mazay
          Maybe, but not a fact. The fact that the stool has put a squiggle does not mean that he himself, without "good" advisers, invented it.

          Most likely, "good advisers" were there, but does the Minister of Defense really not understand how the purchase of foreign military equipment can come back to haunt?
          1. Ded_Mazay
            Ded_Mazay 8 May 2020 21: 28 New
            +1
            The thinking of people supporting the purchase of "such" foreign technology is beyond my understanding ...
            1. Alf
              Alf 8 May 2020 21: 35 New
              0
              Quote: Ded_Mazay
              The thinking of people supporting the purchase of "such" foreign technology is beyond my understanding ...

              In Russian business, such methods of economic interaction as banking, trading, consulting, franchising are absent. In Russian business, there is only one way of economic interaction-rolling.
              1. Ded_Mazay
                Ded_Mazay 9 May 2020 09: 12 New
                +1
                Quote: Alf
                banking, trading, consulting, franchising

                The practice of our Western "partners" shows that this is also a kind of "kickback" form ...
                1. Alf
                  Alf 9 May 2020 15: 09 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Ded_Mazay
                  Quote: Alf
                  banking, trading, consulting, franchising

                  The practice of our Western "partners" shows that this is also a kind of "kickback" form ...

                  As Ostap Bender-I used to say, there is no objection to this either.
  17. Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 7 May 2020 17: 31 New
    0
    The same Tigers in the initial version with Kamins and Allison could not produce for the RM, though, units for commercial vehicles.
  18. bk0010
    bk0010 7 May 2020 22: 44 New
    -1
    It seems to me that a real MPAP based on a heavy truck would be useful to ours. For wire columns and patrols. Armed with four towers with KPVT and AGS. It is relatively inexpensive, the resource is large, the parts are cheap, expensive motor hours of all kinds of armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles are saved, in the event of an attack by saboteurs, there are more chances to survive and repulse the attack than armored personnel carriers, even with a cannon (the infantryman still flew into it or 14 mm) .
    And why do I need a Tiger in the presence of the BTR-70, I do not really understand. It is expensive, there is little space in it, the protection is the same (I'm talking about Grade 3, and up to Grade 5 you can also weigh armored personnel carriers), and the APC’s traffic is better. That mines armored personnel carrier holds bad.
    1. Alf
      Alf 8 May 2020 17: 35 New
      0
      Quote: bk0010
      Armed with four towers with KPVT and AGS.

      The length of this car presented? If you book it, how much will it weigh? And which dvigun to put on it?
      1. bk0010
        bk0010 8 May 2020 23: 22 New
        +1
        Meet: KamAZ-6560, can carry 23 tons, the price is 8-9 million. Let the price double due to armor and KPVT, all the same, for the price of one T-90 (118 million) it will be possible to take 6-7 MCUs and get 24 surveillance channels and 24 destruction channels with an incomparably longer resource and lower operating costs.
        1. Alf
          Alf 9 May 2020 15: 26 New
          0
          Quote: bk0010
          Meet:

          Once again I say, estimate the LENGTH of such a monster with four towers.
          Will this KAMAZ be protected as well as the T-90?
          Quote: bk0010
          And why do I need a Tiger in the presence of the BTR-70, I do not really understand.

          Because the Tiger is a big jeep, and the armored personnel carrier is an armored car.
          1. bk0010
            bk0010 9 May 2020 21: 29 New
            0
            Once again I say, estimate the LENGTH of such a monster with four towers.
            Will this KAMAZ be protected as well as the T-90?
            Sorry, I don’t understand what the problem is, what is wrong with the length? This is not a tank tower, there are only KPVT and AGS. Such a Tiger fits without problems. What prevents to put 4 of these in a staggered manner on the MCI?
            Quote: Alf
            Because the Tiger is a big jeep, and the armored personnel carrier is an armored car.
            What tasks can a tiger perform and cannot an armored personnel carrier? For the price: BTR-80 without weapons is now sold at 3.5 million, and the Tiger - from $ 60000, that is, it is not at all cheaper.
            1. Alf
              Alf 9 May 2020 21: 58 New
              0
              Quote: bk0010
              Sorry, I don’t understand what the problem is, what is wrong with the length? This is not a tank tower, there are only KPVT and AGS.

              Take the diameter of the BTR-70 tower + barrel throwing radius and try to place FOUR towers, even in a checkerboard pattern. Can you figure out which barn you get?
              Quote: bk0010
              What tasks can a tiger perform and cannot an armored personnel carrier?

              A tiger machine for reconnaissance groups, an armored personnel carrier (APC) for transporting infantry out of combat.
              The difference is about the same as between sneakers and model shoes. In shoes, you can also run and jump, but it’s better to do it in shoes adapted for this.
              1. bk0010
                bk0010 9 May 2020 22: 11 New
                0
                Quote: Alf
                Take the diameter of the BTR-70 + towerradius throw the barrel and try to place FOUR towers, even in a checkerboard pattern. Can you figure out which barn you get?
                Everything, I understand what you see the problem. The tower does not have to rotate 360 ​​degrees: the other side is closely watched by other towers.
                Quote: Alf
                Intelligence Tiger Machine
                That is, is it a new BRDM? Not floating, no wheels to be lifted ... Well, at least this time they hung more armor, otherwise it was completely cardboard.
                1. Alf
                  Alf 9 May 2020 22: 16 New
                  0
                  Quote: bk0010
                  no wheels to lift ...

                  Have you ever heard that these wheels would use bardadymka? They were blocked immediately upon arrival at the unit, because their drive was constantly breaking down, but there was no sense from them.
  19. Sarkazm
    Sarkazm 8 May 2020 01: 19 New
    -2
    VPK, our manufacturer of Zaporozhets, sorry BTR-82, including the Tigers. The military-industrial complex is part of the GAZ Group, which belongs to a type of talented (married) businessman, as well as to the oligarch Deripaska, but it’s easier then the Family. Tigers and Lynxes were in Syria, there were explosions of this and that, the result in the studio please.

    Our industry is able to create an armored car no worse than Iveco, another question is whether the developer will let him release it and whether he will receive an order. Nobody asks about our army about anything, let’s at least here we will not drive the snowstorm to each other. We are again scratched about the supply of BTR-82A / AM and they say some of them, about 160 units. produced anew, not modernized. What’s new, what’s modernized there, you can’t do it yourself, there’s no money for the Boomerang, so at least keep someone else’s:

    How long will our landing force jump into the side windows? The Romanians, with their level of industry engaged in the eternal modernization of our T-50s from the time of the King of the Peas, upgraded the BTR-70 even then, when will we? What is our army ecstatic about the method of landing from BTR-80/82? Does our army directly stick out from the Tiger's mine resistance, which even in the latest modification is inferior to the Italian? Iveco had cars with a greater carrying capacity and internal volume, talk about the alleged model having a specific problem with this model and comparing it with the Tiger, well, where’s the conscience? ...
  20. Alexandra
    Alexandra 8 May 2020 14: 07 New
    -2
    Quote: knn54
    The British gave a lot of negative feedback on the experience of operating in Afghanistan. There are much "advanced" equipment from Germany or Switzerland.


    Will you quote? What are more advanced vehicles from Germany or Switzerland than Iveco LMV 10 years ago in Afghanistan?



    When you call any MOWAG Eagle IV, do not forget to indicate its protection level according to STANAG 4569 and the axle load.
  21. Alexandra
    Alexandra 8 May 2020 14: 22 New
    0
    Quote: Insurgent
    But to create your own cool armored car class MRAP, Russia has it all.

    But for some reason he is not ...


    Typhoon-K is cool, and like Lynx in Syria today. A light MRAP armored car is much more difficult to develop than a heavy one. How is the same VPK-3927 "Wolf" doing there? The last time something was heard about him (2015), he tried to re-test.
  22. Alexandra
    Alexandra 8 May 2020 14: 57 New
    0
    Quote: Bad_gr
    Iveco was originally a purely civilian car, which was hung with all kinds of protection. The armored capsules, which are sometimes remembered, are not even there, unlike the same "Tiger".


    Iveco LMV was originally an army armored car, proactively developed by Iveco in the late 90s and early 2000s (the first prototype was ready in 2001) based on the experience of the Italian peacekeeping contingent in Bosnia. There are also unarmored versions purchased, for example, by the Italian Ministry of Civil Protection. Iveco LMV has a frame-panel structure - a space frame and conventional or armored panels installed on it. The domestic armored vehicle VPK-39271 "Wolf" has the same design and was never put into service. "Tigr-M" has a frame structure and a welded cockpit made of armor steel 5 mm thick. As a result, "Tiger-M" is significantly inferior to Iveco LMV / "Lynx" in ballistic and mine protection with a slightly higher weight (ASN-233115 - curb weight 6880 kg, gross weight 8080 kg). The "Tiger-M" has more seats and better geometric cross-country ability, as it is corny more and has larger wheels. The cross-country ability of the LMV-2016 presented in 2 with an increased wheel diameter and ground clearance:

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/1965265.html

    It is comparable to the "Tiger-M" cross-country ability, as well as the total mass of these machines (8080 kg and 8100 kg, respectively). Payload of ASN-233115 "Tiger-M" - 1200 kg, Iveco LMV-2 - 1500 kg.
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  24. DeKo
    DeKo 28 June 2020 08: 28 New
    0
    Very well, our Ukrainian "comrades" approached the production of an armored car. They have such a MRLB Kharakternik. Reconnaissance Vehicle Lightly Armored Character. Having bought heels like Volkswagen Cuddy from landfills, they fastened tin with rubber on them, stuck a spark from Maximov or NURS into the body