Military Review

Reds versus whites: attempts to project conflict today

359

About a hundred years ago, a civil war broke out in our country, which claimed millions of lives of citizens who found themselves in the ruins of the Russian Empire. Some of them died from weapons in hands, being parties to the conflict on one of the parties. Others simply became accidental victims of this massacre, finding themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time.


For white or for red?


For a long time there are no living witnesses of those events, and the Civil War itself is a thing of the distant past, in history.

But when in our time polls are conducted on the topic “If you lived during the Civil War, you would go for the Reds or the Whites,” the discussion invariably becomes hot. Passions boil so that the debaters will look at checkers and Mausers. Some with foam at the mouth defend the position of the red, others favor white.

Actually, for such events a hundred years is not a deadline. For example, in the United States, the Civil War ended half a century earlier than ours, but complete reconciliation has still not come about.

Before we enter or not enter into a dispute between the white and red of the XNUMXst century, let us determine the indisputable moments.

There is nothing to argue about


Without a doubt, the Civil War alone did not bring any benefit to Russia. I do not mean the reasons for this war, nor the further achievements of the new government, nor the problems that it may have solved, but the events of the war itself. Many of our citizens died, industry and agriculture were destroyed, education almost ceased to exist, and the country itself was thrown back in development far back.

The next indisputable moment. In the Civil War, the Reds defeated. And apart from the individual memoirs of emigrants or the works of contemporary authors, all that we know about this period, we know from the works of supporters of the "red" idea.

Moreover, all further achievements and victories of our country are based on the victory of the Reds in the Civil War. In other words, today Russia is what it is, thanks to the fact that the red won, not the white. And what would happen if White won, we do not know and will never know.

And the Reds won because of their solidarity and harmonious ideology. And most importantly, the people followed them. After the victory of the Reds, did the people receive what they counted on or not, this is a completely different question.


Another point that is often forgotten. Many of the participants in the Civil War took up arms not of their own free will, but were mobilized by the authorities that were currently operating in a certain territory. No one was interested in their views, they were simply armed, and then sent to kill and die.

All against all


For some reason, the Civil War in Russia, in my opinion, is designated too schematically - as the struggle of the Reds against the Whites. Moreover, whites include all those who were opposed to the red. But in reality there were not two or even three parties to this war. Moreover, these parties were allies yesterday, and tomorrow they became opponents. If yesterday the Makhnovists shoulder to shoulder with the red troops cleared the Crimea of ​​whites, and tomorrow the same Red Army men began to destroy the troops of Makhno.

Take even one of the most famous works about the Civil War - Bulgakov’s novel “The White Guard”. There, among the many dramatic events described, the struggle between white and red is mentioned casually.

By the way, the essence of the Civil War was most accurately reflected in Sholokhov’s novel The Quiet Don. And this was recognized by both the red winners and the white emigration. Sholokhov doesn’t have a division into “good and bad” there

Move on. If you carefully consider what the Red Army did during the years of the Civil War, especially in its last years, it turns out that she had to exert the lion's share of efforts to fight banditry. Moreover, often under this brand there was a suppression of peasant uprisings, which had nothing to do with the white movement. And the suppression by the Bolsheviks of the rebellion of the Kronstadt sailors also does not fit at all in the picture “red versus white”.

I don’t even take national movements or intervention so as not to completely confuse the issue.

Ideas and their implementation


There is one more point. For some reason, many people forget that there is a huge difference between slogans and real politics, sometimes even an abyss.

White proclaimed "One and indivisible Russia." In fact, they did not even have a unified ideology, what other unity can we talk about. Among them were anyone - from terry monarchists to Republicans and even Socialist-Revolutionary bombers. It is unclear how they generally got along with each other. So it’s quite possible to say that the “white idea” is a myth.


Reds are easier to analyze, because they won this fight. Therefore, it is possible to compare the slogans proclaimed by them with real actions.

It was generally accepted, especially in Soviet times, that in the Civil War the workers and peasants converged against the landowners and capitalists. In this statement, "white thread" is visible even with the naked eye. First of all, where it was possible to take in the country so many landowners and capitalists to put together whole armies. Based on this, it is easy to guess that there were probably many peasants and workers in the White armies who also served in the Red Army.

With the Reds, too, not everything is simple. Take at least the leadership of Soviet Russia. How many peasants and workers were among the top leaders? For the most part, the red movement was led by the so-called commoners, professional revolutionaries, nobles, etc. And by the end of the war, so many former White Guards served in the Red Army that a saying appeared:

The Red Army is like a radish. Outside is red, and inside is white.

And you can still take the famous Bolshevik slogan “Power - to the Soviets! Earth - to the peasants! Peace to the people! ” and disassemble it "on the shelves." Immediately after the revolution, the Bolsheviks, instead of transferring power to the Soviets, cleaned them from representatives of all other revolutionary parties and movements, making them "pocket". The peasants never received the promised land. After several years of war, the long-awaited peace in the first half of 1918 came to almost all participants in the First World War. Russia this year received a more terrible and bloody war than the one from which it had just emerged. It turns out that none of the three promises were fulfilled.

I don’t dwell on whites in more detail just because they lost and could not prove themselves by gaining power. In this case, most likely, everything would be even worse. Given how "motley" the white movement was, it was hardly worth hoping for an end to the Civil War if White came to power. Further, for sure, an armed conflict would begin among the winners, which would eventually drive Russia somewhere into the Stone Age.

And do we need it?


Today, someone advocates a white idea, someone red. And this is strange, because both of them have already outlived their own. This is some kind of chronic disease. For some reason, we like to throw rotten tomatoes on one part of our story and idealize the other. Although, it seems to me, the historical process is continuous and interconnected. It would be good for us as the Chinese, who, on the basis of the teachings of Confucius and under the wise leadership of the Communist Party, have created a powerful market economy, without experiencing any discomfort from internal contradictions.

When the USSR collapsed, either our people had the wisdom, or the stars just came together, but the sharp political contradictions, fortunately, did not cause armed clashes. Neither revolution nor civil war happened then.
We then only lacked this.

As for the Civil War in Russia, which occurred at the beginning of the XNUMXth century, you should not try to project a conflict of red and white today. It seems to me that it is high time to consider both red and white ideas a part of our history, treat it with respect, carefully study the events of the Civil War so that they do not happen again.

If we talk about the Russian national idea, then of course we need it. But such an idea, in my opinion, should not be either “red” or “white”. It should unite the people of Russia and make the country stronger, and not divide its population.
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  1. tihonmarine
    tihonmarine 7 May 2020 14: 08 New
    20
    But when in our time polls are conducted on the topic “If you lived during the Civil War, you would go for the Reds or the Whites”
    Although I am a supporter of the monarchical system, but now, and 50 years ago, I said that I would go for the Reds, but in 1917 I do not know who I would go for.
    1. Barmaleyka
      Barmaleyka 7 May 2020 14: 19 New
      21
      Quote: tihonmarine
      but in 1917 I don’t know who I would go for.

      and in the year 17 in October or February, the author somehow forgot that October did not arise from scratch
      White’s main problem is the lack of a single idea and a single charismatic piece that would unite them; the Romanovs betrayed Russia, but there was no new Pozharsky
      1. tihonmarine
        tihonmarine 7 May 2020 14: 24 New
        30
        Quote: Barmaleyka
        The Romanovs betrayed Russia, but there was no new Pozharsky

        And the Romanovs betrayed and the Romanovs betrayed, but a new Pozharsky was found, this is Vladimir Ilyich Lenin and the Bolshevik Party.
        1. Barmaleyka
          Barmaleyka 7 May 2020 14: 32 New
          12
          in this situation, the fact that they betrayed the Romanovs for the second time, the fact that the Romanovs merged into the toilet, in this family there were fleas on the courtyard barboska and not one of them raised the banner in the fight against the usurpers of power from the point of view of the dynasty
          we will be objective Lenin, with all the sympathy for the fact that the Bolsheviks REALLY saved the country from complete collapse, still had slightly different plans than the salvation of a single Russia
          1. Kapellan23
            Kapellan23 7 May 2020 16: 47 New
            -41
            They “saved” by dividing the country into parts, creating “rebellions” for nationalities who never had statehood.
            1. Leshy1975
              Leshy1975 7 May 2020 16: 59 New
              20
              Quote: Kapellan23
              They “saved” by dividing the country into parts, creating “rebellions” for nationalities who never had statehood.

              Do not write nonsense. In the Republic of Ingushetia there was also a territorial division. RI joined other territories and states, but which the indigenous population already lived. And there were also uprisings in the Republic of Ingushetia, type in the network - the massacre of Russians in Turkestan in 1916.
              The hair on his head stands on end, from the cruelty that was happening. First, during the uprising, and then during the suppression.
              1. Kapellan23
                Kapellan23 7 May 2020 17: 48 New
                +1
                The Russian Empire was a unitary state. Separate Ukraine and Belarus never existed in Russia - they were created by socialists, giving them the right to exit and making countries the founders of the UN without the RSFSR.



                The socialists were the first to recognize the independence of Finland, although they did not even think about this before the October Revolution.
                Yakutia, the size of Western Europe, built around a micro-ethnic group that even now does not reach 500 people, and at the time of the formation of the republic it was generally a miserable handful.
                More than half of today's Central Asia was developed and settled by Russians, these were Russian provinces. A particularly striking example is Kazakhstan, which almost entirely exists on the Russian South Siberian lands, in the "Kazakh steppes" of which the Kazakhs almost did not live, but Russians lived (the capital of Kazakhstan Astana is the old Russian city of Akmolinsk with 100% Russian population, now there are about 15% of Russians and continues to shrink).
                Before the revolution:

                The result of Soviet national policy:

                https://zhenziyou.livejournal.com/tag/украинизация
                https://zhenziyou.livejournal.com/tag/белоруссизация
                1. Leshy1975
                  Leshy1975 7 May 2020 18: 11 New
                  27
                  Quote: Kapellan23
                  The Russian Empire was a unitary state. Separate Ukraine and Belarus never existed in Russia - they were created by socialists, giving them the right to exit and making countries the founders of the UN without the RSFSR.



                  The socialists were the first to recognize the independence of Finland, although they did not even think about this before the October Revolution.
                  Yakutia, the size of Western Europe, built around a micro-ethnic group that even now does not reach 500 people, and at the time of the formation of the republic it was generally a miserable handful.
                  More than half of today's Central Asia was developed and settled by Russians, these were Russian provinces. A particularly striking example is Kazakhstan, which almost entirely exists on the Russian South Siberian lands, in the "Kazakh steppes" of which the Kazakhs almost did not live, but Russians lived (the capital of Kazakhstan Astana is the old Russian city of Akmolinsk with 100% Russian population, now there are about 15% of Russians and continues to shrink).
                  Before the revolution:

                  The result of Soviet national policy:

                  https://zhenziyou.livejournal.com/tag/украинизация
                  https://zhenziyou.livejournal.com/tag/белоруссизация

                  Listen to this. When the socialists recognized Finland, there was no real opportunity to keep it in the Republic of Ingushetia. Finland was actually lost much earlier. Source VO: So, during the revolution of 1905-1907. empire’s law enforcement agencies could not operate in Finland. The security department had to operate in Finland with the help of secret agents - as in a foreign country. It was impossible to conduct a "counter-terrorist operation" with the help of gendarmes and Cossacks.
                  Like Poland, it was already actually lost. And when the Bolsheviks came to power, it was ridiculous to talk about a single country in general. By this time, control and unity of territories from a common state center was already lost. And only as a result of the civil war won by the Bolsheviks, was it possible to bring together the rest.

                  PS Grand Duke Alexander Mikhailovich Romanov, grandson of Nicholas I: “the guard of Russian national interests was none other than the internationalist Lenin, who in his constant speeches did not spare his strength to protest against the partition of the former Russian Empire».

                  VV Shulgin, one of the ideologists of the White Movement, in 1921: the Bolsheviks "restore the military power of Russia ... restore the borders of the Russian state to its natural limits". He clarified: “Of course, they think that they have created a socialist army that is fighting“ in the name of the International, ”but this is nonsense. They only think so. In fact, they restored the Russian army ... As crazy as it may seem, but it is so ... The banner of United Russia was actually raised by the Bolsheviks... Of course, Lenin and Trotsky continue to blow the International ... In fact, their army beat the Poles like Poles. And it was precisely because they seized purely Russian regions»

                  PPS What other arguments do you need, even if the representatives of the Romanovs and ideologists of the White movement understood that the Bolsheviks saved and restored Russia as a single state.
                2. Ryaruav
                  Ryaruav 7 May 2020 18: 19 New
                  -8
                  Dietrich, you all perfectly depicted, with the cards perfectly, let's say that we lost the RSFSR
                3. Jack sklo
                  Jack sklo 7 May 2020 18: 59 New
                  +9
                  The Russian Empire at different periods of its existence had a completely different structure. In the XVIII century on the territory of Little Russia there existed hetmanism and the Zaporizhzhya Sich with their government and army, finally destroyed only by Catherine II. Later there were the Kingdom of Poland, the Grand Duchy of Finland, the Central Asian khanates and the emirates. Russia has always been a huge, complex state.
                4. Alexander Suvorov
                  Alexander Suvorov 7 May 2020 19: 13 New
                  26
                  Kapellan23 (Dietrich)
                  The socialists were the first to recognize the independence of Finland, although they did not even think about this before the October Revolution.
                  Brad is not tired of carrying? Finland disconnected de facto already at the time of the abdication of the king. More precisely, even earlier, even in the Republic of Ingushetia, Finland had almost complete sovereignty while retaining only the appearance of citizenship of the Republic of Ingushetia. Like Poland, by the way, we simply stupidly fed these parasites at the expense of Russia.
                  I’m wondering, why the hell did Finland surrender to you? That all of you here suffer so much in the territories allegedly lost by the Bolsheviks, which we don’t need for nothing in the barn. In addition to hemorrhoids from the Poles and from the Finns, Russia had nothing to expect.
                  Yes, I was against the collapse of the USSR both then and now, but objectively looking at things, we must admit that with the breakaway of 15 former "fraternal" republics from Russia, Russia only won. The need to feed the parasites disappeared, because in the USSR there were only TWO republics that produced more than they consumed, these are the RSFSR and the BSSR, all the rest in fact only pulled Russia down. You can scream as much as you like, but it's a fact.
                  Although, of course, I am for the Stalinist empire of the USSR!

                  P.S. And the author on this passage:
                  When the USSR collapsed, either our people had the wisdom, or the stars just came together, but the sharp political contradictions, fortunately, did not cause armed clashes. Neither revolution nor civil war happened then.
                  We then only lacked this.
                  I want to ask, how old are you? Or have you forgotten the mountains of corpses of gang warfare, and millions that didn’t fit the market, but heated conflicts around the outskirts of the former USSR? Few? Is this not a full-fledged civil war, but in a slightly different form?
                  So learn the history of your country, if it is of course your country.
                  1. Kuzmitsky
                    7 May 2020 20: 22 New
                    +9
                    Godkov is enough for me, and I remember the collapse of the USSR perfectly. He served at that moment in the Soviet Army and in the glorious city of Moscow. And this country is mine. And even the Civil War not so long ago found, however, a little different.

                    But since you asked, I will repeat once again: "political contradictions did not cause armed conflicts" Where did I write here that there were no armed clashes at all? Neither interethnic conflicts, nor bandit showdowns took place due to political differences. But if armed clashes over politics began, there would be little room for everyone. As in the Civil War, only at times worse. Maybe they still wouldn't have cleared it.

                    But I’m constantly teaching the history of the country, and constantly I find something new for myself, it’s too painful for us to have a large country, and its history is rich.
                    1. Alexander Suvorov
                      Alexander Suvorov 7 May 2020 20: 31 New
                      23
                      Well, that's nice, I also served exactly from 1991 to 1993, and not in Moscow, but in the Caucasus and I had seen enough of the war. This was a civil war, only it wore a different color, not interclass, but interethnic. BUT it was still a war, and it was a civil one.
                      You may have a different opinion on this score, but the one who saw the massacre in North Ossetia, Ingushetia, Dagestan, Chechnya and other hot spots will most likely be my opinion.
                      And yet, the fact that in central Russia those events did not turn into a massacre is not a merit of anyone, but the elementary absence of weapons from the majority is no more and no less.
                      1. evgeniy.plotnikov.2019mail.ru
                        evgeniy.plotnikov.2019mail.ru 8 May 2020 13: 12 New
                        +4
                        Not really, dear Alexander Suvorov. The collapse of the Union and ,, international wars ,, in the post-Soviet territory - this is precisely the class struggle. The struggle of the big bourgeoisie of the world (,, imperialists ,,, ,, globalists ,,, ,, world behind the scenes ,,, ,, financial elite ,, ...) against the workers and peasants of the USSR (Russia). They namerenn about ignited ethnic conflicts. Intentionally betrayed to this war such a color. Disguise. ,, Camouflage ,,.
                        ... Before the excited crowd went to smash the Russians in 1986 in Alma-Ata, they were given to drink vodka that did not pour from the sky. The Chechens would have nothing to fight with the Yeltsin RF, if there, in Chechnya, a “caring,” someone had not left their weapons, including heavy, sufficient to arm several regiments of NE. Arms did not fall from the sky. In Karabakh, at the end of the last century, high-ranking Russian-speaking ,, instructors ,, (,, observers ,,, ,, curators ,,) were on both sides. The flames of international war, globalists skillfully ignite and support all over the world. But the war, like 100 and 200 years ago, is class war.
                        On our own, we add that it is necessary to look at this war on a LARGE, BIGGER, and DEEPER. This is not just a war of the exploiters and the exploited. All the more serious. This is a thousand-year war of PEOPLE and INHUMAN.
                        In the art of pitting people, nonhumans are great masters. And the WWII and WWII - this is their ,, creativity ,,. Those still ,, architects ,,. Wanted to earn? They wanted and earned. But everything is much worse. And their ,, earnings ,, - not the main thing. Inhumans are Satanists. And they are primarily interested in the bloody CHAOS, the insane and senseless mass extermination of people. Remember the areal bombing of residential areas of German cities and ,, ignoring ,, industrial enterprises. ,, Joint ,, by the way.
                        And the author of the article needs to read more memoirs and art books of the 20s of the last century. So many ,, blunders ,,, no offense.
                        How does this ,, intervention confuse the question ,,? Very unraveling. Having abandoned, having forgotten, the great war, the imperialists, of all countries, rushed to Russia. The cunning thief decided to profit from someone else's good. Having decided that, the owner’s house, ... And who were supported by these newcomers? Was White supported? The author of the article never heard the proverb: ,, Tell me who your friend is ... ,,
                        How is it that the Reds have not kept their promises ?! It was OUR country, where ,, steered ,, OUR state (with all its shortcomings). We worked at OWN factories and received a decent salary, lived in OWN wages on received apartments and paid utility bills, a penny, rested in OWN Rest Houses for a mere kopek, flying there ON YOUR airplanes. We had OUR art, OUR hospitals and schools ... What are you talking about, Sergey? Why are you ,, pointing a shadow at the fence? The red state of the USSR did not pay the USA, a tribute, in the form of a crazy dollar to ruble exchange rate, did not creep in front of the USA or Israel.
                        ... So it was until the 70s of the last century (as long as the participants in the Revolution and the Civil War were alive). All the lying, dirty and aggressive rubbish in different countries of the world we called ,, white ,,. ,, Belochekhs ,, ,, Belokitaytsy ,,, ,, Belofins ,, ... There is a famous poem by Konstantin Simonov on this subject. And it was EXACTLY. So it is in the world. Wheat and tares, rams and, children of God and ,, children ,, of Satan.
                        And absolutely, baby talk about the armies of the capitalists. When were the traders warriors? Hire, buddy. Not only bad people are sold, but ordinary people are also sold. I want to eat, I need to feed my family. To the army - how to work. But this does not remove the spiritual and moral responsibility from ,, worker. By the way, the Red Army was paid and a link to banknotes, often not suitable for evaluating the actions of ordinary soldiers. Do you have no eyes? Can't you see what Kolchak is doing over the prisoners? Can't you see what the white whispers are doing over Russian women and girls?
                        For some reason, the article leads away. There are OBVIOUS things that people do not make sense to discuss. True (in general) was on the side of the Reds, so God was with them and they could not help but win. But not everyone, Homo sapiens, choose the side of the Creator. So it was then, this is happening now
                    2. IS-80_RVGK2
                      IS-80_RVGK2 7 May 2020 23: 10 New
                      14
                      Quote: Kuzmitsky
                      And I’m constantly learning the history of the country, and constantly I find something new for myself

                      Any stupid nonsense and outright stupidity, however, you wrote pretty much in the article. Another attempt to reconcile the oligarch and the locksmith failed. You can hang up noodles about “this is our Motherland”, “we are one people”, “the red idea is outdated” as much as you like, but these noodles will not save you from class contradictions. Just as capitalism will not save from innate shortcomings, which sooner or later will lead it to a natural change to a more advanced OEF.
                    3. ccsr
                      ccsr 8 May 2020 16: 28 New
                      +2
                      Quote: Kuzmitsky
                      But I’m constantly teaching the history of the country, and constantly I find something new for myself, it’s too painful for us to have a large country, and its history is rich.

                      I bet that if in five years you post the same article text without any corrections, then the discussion will not change in any way, and again the same conclusions and arguments will be between different opponents. So it is unlikely that in the next decade we will come to a reconciliation on this issue, although I personally have not been looking for either the right or the guilty in that war for a long time, because for me it is primarily the tragedy of our people. I think that it is time to stop looking for the right and the guilty - it will be better for all of us and for our descendants.
                5. Barmaleyka
                  Barmaleyka 9 May 2020 07: 12 New
                  +3
                  Quote: Kapellan23
                  In Russia, there have never been separate Ukrainian

                  read something about the Principality of Finland and HOW the Finns behaved there in relation to the Russians
              2. Ryaruav
                Ryaruav 7 May 2020 18: 16 New
                0
                Goblin, but these territories did not have their own ministries, it was primarily a centralized state and no federations (in the USSR they understood it but were afraid to correct mistakes, but the state was almost a monarchy) they asked to participate in the rear works, this is not with a mosquito against German howitzers, let's not exaggerate, the truth is in the middle
                1. Leshy1975
                  Leshy1975 7 May 2020 18: 57 New
                  19
                  Quote: Ryaruav
                  Goblin, but these territories did not have their own ministries, it was primarily a centralized state and no federations (in the USSR they understood it but were afraid to correct mistakes, but the state was almost a monarchy) they asked to participate in the rear works, this is not with a mosquito against German howitzers, let's not exaggerate, the truth is in the middle

                  Some of these territories even managed to get the status of states, such a collapse of RI was:
                  1918 year. Peter Nikolaevich Krasnov. Having taken the reins of government, an active military leader writes several letters to the Kaiser of Germany Wilhelm asking for a protectorate new state education of the Cossacksas well as assistance with weapons and money. The most interesting thing is that the German authorities, in fact, recognized the government of Peter Krasnov.
                  A similar situation was in Ukraine, where Petlyura made an alliance with the Poles:
                  Directory in exchange for recognition by its "supreme government independent Ukraine"Agreed to annexation to Poland of Eastern Galicia, Western Volhynia and part of Polesie (in total Poland annexed 162 thousand km2 of Ukrainian territory with a population of 11 million people)

                  And there are many more examples. The fact that the truth is somewhere nearby agrees with you completely. hi
                  But to say that it was the Bolsheviks who divided the country into parts, it’s not even close to the truth. After all their merits, of course, by participating in a bloody civil war, by collecting fragments of the Republic of Ingushetia back into a single state. If there were no Bolsheviks at that time, it is not yet known what would generally remain in the composition of a single state.
                2. your1970
                  your1970 11 May 2020 16: 31 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Ryaruav
                  but these territories did not have their own ministries,ri is primarily a centralized state and no federations

                  that is why in RI released personal money for Finland and the ruble of the empire didn’t officially go there - was it not obligatory for settlements ???? fool fool
                  go nuts centralization - with their SEPARATE laws, power and money fool fool
            2. Barmaleyka
              Barmaleyka 7 May 2020 17: 49 New
              +3
              Quote: Kapellan23
              They “saved” by dividing the country into parts, creating “rebellions” for nationalities who never had statehood.

              do not write stupid things, the collapse of the country began in February with the abolition of the unifying principle in the form of a monarch, but the national policy in the USSR was not quite right, maybe it was in the form in which we know it was necessary in the 20s, but after the war it definitely needed to be changed, but I can recall the mediocre national policy in the Republic of Ingushetia, an example is Poland and Finland
            3. Victorio
              Victorio 9 May 2020 11: 48 New
              0
              Quote: Kapellan23
              But such an idea, in my opinion, should not be either “red” or “white”. It should unite the people of Russia and make the country stronger, and not divide its population.

              ===
              I agree with you, but in fairness - the one who does nothing is not mistaken.
              and ri had to do something / change. and revolution did it for her.
          2. alecsis69
            alecsis69 9 May 2020 01: 09 New
            +1
            Lenin was a practitioner and pragmatist when the revolution in Germany was suppressed and it became clear that there was no need to wait for a world revolution in the foreseeable future, it was he who raised the question of building socialism in a single country, in contrast to Trotsky, Kamenev, Zenoviev, etc. continued to rave about the world revolution and spend a lot of effort and money on the Comintern.
        2. Malyuta
          Malyuta 7 May 2020 15: 13 New
          0
          Quote: tihonmarine
          Although I am a supporter of the monarchical system, but now, and 50 years ago, I said that I would go for the Reds, but in 1917 I do not know who I would go for.

          For me personally, a person adhering to communist views, the current "white" are more associates than opponents.
          All sane people have long understood for themselves who the true enemy is and what threatens our long-suffering Homeland.
          In this case, with all the internal differences, only unification can save us all.
          Threat. In 2018, we completely calmly interacted with all patriotic organizations and I do not care that there is a mutter of siu, women and other figures, I know one thing that we all have nothing to share when the country is in real danger.
          1. Leshy1975
            Leshy1975 7 May 2020 17: 27 New
            +8
            Quote: Malyuta
            Quote: tihonmarine
            Although I am a supporter of the monarchical system, but now, and 50 years ago, I said that I would go for the Reds, but in 1917 I do not know who I would go for.

            For me personally, a person adhering to communist views, the current "white" are more associates than opponents.
            All sane people have long understood for themselves who the true enemy is and what threatens our long-suffering Homeland.
            In this case, with all the internal differences, only unification can save us all.
            Threat. In 2018, we completely calmly interacted with all patriotic organizations and I do not care that there is a mutter of siu, women and other figures, I know one thing that we all have nothing to share when the country is in real danger.

            Also such an opinion. Especially stubborn on both sides, they only harm, because they are non-negotiable.
            And the USSR sample of 1939 and 1975, this is a completely different country. Although there and there is a country of reds.
            And what are modern "whites"? Monarchists? Or what is their idea?
            We need to take everything, all ideas that are beneficial to Russian society, which will contribute to the growth of well-being and the number of peoples of Russia.
            Is the idea of ​​justice only white or red? Or can modern whites be against the idea of ​​equality? Hardly.

            PS I myself am a conscious supporter of leftist ideas. Because I am comparing today's RF and the USSR, what achievements the USSR was able to provide, from almost complete zero, and how the modern RF "develops".
            We need to take all the best that is only applicable in modern conditions from leftist ideas and try to add competition and initiative. Competition incl. and politically. There cannot be only one party in the country, we already know what this leads to. And the economy also needs competition, where it is acceptable, where concentration of huge resources is not required.
            After all, there were artels and private labor under temporary detention facilities. With its own characteristics and limitations, but existed, 8 out of 10 enterprises served the household needs of the people - from hairdressers and repair shops to the manufacture of furniture and building materials.
            1. Sling cutter
              Sling cutter 7 May 2020 23: 29 New
              +4
              Quote: Malyuta
              I know one thing that we all have nothing to share when the country is in real danger.

              Quote: Leshy1975
              Especially stubborn on both sides, they only harm, because they are non-negotiable.

              Speak correctly, Comrades! That's right, we have already been "unraveling" enough, now it's time to unite.
          2. IS-80_RVGK2
            IS-80_RVGK2 7 May 2020 23: 13 New
            +4
            Quote: Malyuta
            In 2018, we completely calmly interacted with all patriotic organizations and I do not care that there is a mutter of siu, women and other figures, I know one thing that we all have nothing to share when the country is in real danger.

            There is always something to share. And not any white allies.
            1. Sling cutter
              Sling cutter 7 May 2020 23: 47 New
              +3
              Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
              There is always something to share. And not any white allies.

              Kamrad! hi Why are you so categorical? The current "whites" are quite negotiable, I do not take into account the "ultras".
              By the way, Lenin also spoke of allies.
              You know why the left movement in the Russian Federation is weak, and that’s why we don’t know how to negotiate, some of us are the most Marxists, others aren’t we are Marxists cooler, still others scream and we’re Marxists-Leninists, so we’re the main ones. I think that at the moment there is a contention away, only to unite under the very same simple slogan Freedom, Equality, Brotherhood, we have no other way!
              Threat. although there is of course, all together, but separately in the cemetery.
              Agree, this route is not impressive.
              1. IS-80_RVGK2
                IS-80_RVGK2 8 May 2020 12: 29 New
                0
                Quote: Stroporez
                Do you know why the left movement in Russia is weak

                I perfectly understand why it is weak. And negotiability there somewhere in 10th place.
        3. Alekseev
          Alekseev 7 May 2020 15: 41 New
          +8
          Quote: tihonmarine
          and betrayed the Romanovs, but found a new Pozharsky

          The main thing is not to fight on sofas for claudia with each other, but to gain your mind so as not to repeat the horrors of the beginning of the XNUMXth century.
          And in order to do this, one must seriously, not at the level of propaganda newspapers, study the history of the Fatherland. It's boring, reading archival materials is not reading a novel, but you have to ...
          Everyone is to blame for the civil war. To varying degrees, of course.
          The king is that he was not able to conduct the evolutionary development of the country. And he paid, as A.I. Denikin wrote, with the death of his and his family for all the sins, free and not free, before the Russian people. The nobility is that it has degenerated as a class and has ceased to be capable of serving its state. Those who had and who didn’t have lost everything, at best they managed to find themselves in the service in the new state or emigrate abroad.
          The bourgeois bastard, who was eager for power, destroying together with tsarism and the army, and the very foundations of Russian statehood suffered, by the way, the least. Having money, many did not at all get involved in the struggle of white and red and quickly faded abroad.
          The dark men are to blame for having divorced on promises that they would receive "tithes of two hundred" each and, most importantly, believed that they would be allowed to work for themselves on these tithes. They, of course, are sorry, the dark ones, but they also had to pay millions of them with their prematurely interrupted life due to repression, hunger strikes, and inept conduct of hostilities ...
          About those who were nothing, but I won’t be anything special, some citizens fall into schizophrenic ecstasy when discussing them, where historical objectivism is already there ... lol
          But they also did not pass "this cup". And marshals, and the most-most responsible secretaries, and even security officers request, including, their commissars and dozens of old Bolsheviks hit a mass as spies and enemies of the people.
          It would seem that History itself clearly teaches us that there is no need for guys to divide into white and red.
          1. revnagan
            revnagan 7 May 2020 20: 45 New
            +9
            Quote: Alekseev
            Everyone is to blame for the civil war. To varying degrees, of course.

            It so happened that now I am rereading A. Gaidar, "School". I am rereading as a mature man, well for the fortieth century. I am rethinking. It's a strong thing. And I understand, the tsar and his clique are to blame for bringing the country to revolution and civil war. "White" are to blame. unequivocally, because trying to drive the people into a stall in order to live "as before" prolonged the chaos and intensified the devastation, which is why the "dark men" did not receive the full promise. And what ordinary people received was well written by Sergey Kara- Murza. But of course you will not read it, there are tables, calculations, data analysis ... From which it turns out that ordinary people still healed better. Not like nobles, taking their place and receiving their privileges, but better.
            1. New Year day
              New Year day 7 May 2020 20: 59 New
              +4
              Quote: revnagan
              And I understand, the tsar and his clique are to blame for bringing the country to revolution and civil war. "

              in today's language, an inefficient manager! Next, everything coincides with today
            2. Cyril G ...
              Cyril G ... 7 May 2020 21: 30 New
              11
              People were given education, and the possibility of a career, regardless of class. It was worth a lot.
          2. IS-80_RVGK2
            IS-80_RVGK2 7 May 2020 23: 16 New
            +3
            Quote: Alekseev
            It would seem that History itself clearly teaches us that there is no need for guys to divide into white and red.

            The story itself, as I see it, has not taught you anything personally. For if you taught you would understand such a division will be independent of your Wishlist such.
      2. Svarog
        Svarog 7 May 2020 14: 28 New
        11
        Quote: Barmaleyka
        White’s main problem is the lack of a single idea and a single charismatic piece that would unite them; the Romanovs betrayed Russia, but there was no new Pozharsky

        You can add corruption, as now .. lack of clear goals .. ignoring ordinary people, as well as now ..
        1. Squelcher
          Squelcher 7 May 2020 14: 45 New
          -24
          Well, in the end the communists turned the USSR into George Orwell's "Animal Farm".
          1. Barmaleyka
            Barmaleyka 7 May 2020 15: 01 New
            +8
            Excuse me, how old are you?
            1. sleeve
              sleeve 7 May 2020 16: 20 New
              -7
              What is wrong with the applicant's age?
              1. Barmaleyka
                Barmaleyka 7 May 2020 16: 57 New
                +7
                and what is wrong with the question?
          2. Sertorius
            Sertorius 7 May 2020 15: 31 New
            15
            Well, in the end the communists turned the USSR into George Orwell's "Animal Farm".

            Something tells me that you either did not read this work, or did not understand it. The Animal Farm is a society of equality and justice. It ceased to be such when the pigs, by the military seizure of power, destroyed (perverted) its ideology ("animalism") and became bourgeois. It is very similar to Gorbachev and the Yeltsin gang, only Gorbachev was no communist. The insides of him and his entourage had long been bourgeois and rotten.
            1. Squelcher
              Squelcher 8 May 2020 00: 38 New
              -3
              Maybe all the same you will read this work before giving advice to others, then you will not look silly.
        2. paul3390
          paul3390 7 May 2020 15: 40 New
          13
          Actually - and who said that the civil war is over ?? Nothing of the kind, there was just a respite for 70 years .. Now, in connection with the temporary revenge of the whites and the catastrophic consequences of this, the second phase is brewing, alas - it seems no less bloody. And each one will again have to choose the color of the banners for himself .. And again the red one will win, for this is inevitable. This time - let's hope that finally ...
          1. New Year day
            New Year day 7 May 2020 21: 01 New
            +7
            Quote: paul3390
            Actually - and who said that the civil war is over ??

            absolutely right! While she walks in the minds.
            1. IS-80_RVGK2
              IS-80_RVGK2 7 May 2020 23: 32 New
              +3
              This war is due to the laws of development of human society. Therefore, even if everyone forgets about it all at once tomorrow, anyway, by virtue of these, the pattern will flare up again after some time. This is inevitable.
      3. Kapellan23
        Kapellan23 7 May 2020 16: 42 New
        -14
        All volunteers of the Russian army had a common idea - “United and Indivisible Russia”.
        1. boris epstein
          boris epstein 7 May 2020 17: 49 New
          +6
          Please read AI Denikin "Sketches of Russian Troubles" and his policy of non-determination. He specifically stated that no disputes about the future structure of Russia are acceptable until the victory of the whites. And this is the absence of a unifying idea.
        2. AA17
          AA17 7 May 2020 23: 56 New
          +4
          Dear Kapellan23 (Dietrich). If you are talking about the White Volunteer Army, then the main core of this Army was the former "Russian officer corps". Most of the officers were nobles. (Volkov SV "RUSSIAN OFFICER CORPUS. Formation of the first volunteer officer units on the Don and the creation of the Volunteer Army." Http://swolkov.org/tro/041-1.htm)
          In the Red Volunteer Army, workers and peasants constituted the bulk. Both the Red Volunteers and the White Volunteers stood for “One and Indivisible Russia”. The only difference was that the White Volunteer Army was supported and assisted by the bourgeois governments of European countries, while the Red Volunteer Army was supported and assisted by the Russian people. Therefore, the essence of the Civil War in Russia is very simple: part of the country's population, after the collapse of the Monarchy, wanted to keep their noble PRIVILEGES (for the preservation of the estates), and most of the Russian population was against these PRIVILEGES (for the abolition of the estates). And since the opponents of privileges were in the majority, they won. Now they are again trying to impose estates on us. Examples in plain sight: the children of many high-ranking officials are "very talented" and therefore at an early age already occupy high positions in state structures.
    2. Uncle lee
      Uncle lee 7 May 2020 14: 22 New
      +3
      "The steamer goes - water rings,
      Let's feed the fish with the Komsomol members!
      И
      "Street, street, bastard Denikin blinks,
      That the Siberian Cheka exchanged Kolchak "!
      Well, blood has spilled ... And God forbid repetition!
      1. To be or not to be
        To be or not to be 7 May 2020 15: 19 New
        +9
        White Army, black baron
      2. figwam
        figwam 7 May 2020 15: 33 New
        11
        Kolchak paid gold for
        English uniform
        Shoulder strap french
        Japanese tobacco,
        Omsk ruler.
        1. Sklendarka
          Sklendarka 7 May 2020 18: 03 New
          +3
          Would you go to Vanek soldiers
          There are bayonets in the Red Army
          The Bolsheviks will manage without you ...
          1. revnagan
            revnagan 7 May 2020 20: 52 New
            +6
            Quote: Skalendarka
            There are bayonets in the Red Army

            "In the Red Army bayonets TEA, there will be ..."
            Poor, mischievous peasant. And he served in the Red Army. And he trolled "whites" in such a way that our contemporaries never dreamed of.
            "Ih fangge an, I am
            es-ist for all soviet places
            for Russian people from edge to edge
            Baron's Unzero Manifesto.
            You have my surnames famous
            their bin von Wrangel, Herr Baron
            I am the best, most garbage
            there is a candidate for the royal throne.
            Listen, red soldier
            Why are you beating me?
            My whole government is democratic
            not some pig ... " laughing .
            1. Sklendarka
              Sklendarka 7 May 2020 20: 57 New
              +5
              Aging, starting to forget ... hi
            2. Sklendarka
              Sklendarka 7 May 2020 20: 57 New
              +1
              Aging, starting to forget ... hi
    3. Deniska999
      Deniska999 7 May 2020 14: 24 New
      +6
      Already need to stop these endless skirmishes red vs. whites, after all, this is our common story. No matter how many comments you get, sheer aggression against both sides. In the end, one must calmly accept what has happened without emotion and try to look impassively at the past. After all, you can’t change it already.
      Although, the current generation, I think, is already free from prejudice both against the Bolsheviks and the white movement.
      1. tatra
        tatra 7 May 2020 15: 04 New
        19
        And sheer aggression is a consequence of the fact that the "whites" that 100 years ago, that now, for their country and people there is only malice AGAINST the "red", but for themselves, and for their country and people, they have nothing and no one good no . And the result of the 30-year seizure of the USSR by the "whites" is that both they and the "reds" discuss the Soviet period every day. And there are always much more comments on the Soviet period on the Internet than about the post-Soviet period, because the Soviet period has those who are FOR and who are AGAINST, but those who are AGAINST the Soviet period are not able to offer the country and the people a better alternative.
        1. Vlad world
          Vlad world 7 May 2020 18: 28 New
          -6
          This is when White captured that. Pro-Western liberals, yes. Captured and in order to continue to stay in power, some are being bred. Divide and rule. Especially in the division they are helped by the "heirs of Ilyich".
          Those who lived under "communism" or their heirs. Ideological or natural.
          We have seen your alternative and know it.
      2. To be or not to be
        To be or not to be 7 May 2020 18: 51 New
        +7
        It is not a matter of whites and reds, it is a matter of private ownership of fixed assets and the procedure for distributing profits ...
        Some own and get everything, while the rest plow on them, getting crumbs (a slave should be afraid to lose the last .... ha ha almost on the neck ..). And when the first is pressed ... then white and red appear ...
        And even now, during the coronavirus period, even the concept was introduced from above. It is really out of place, - "social distance" ... No, to put it bluntly, social inequality in the capitalist system .. However ...
      3. The leader of the Redskins
        The leader of the Redskins 7 May 2020 21: 48 New
        -5
        Probably, it would be right to create another park, like the "patriot". Only, for example, "memory". Place the same busts of significant military and political figures of that era around the perimeter, in a ring. At the bases there is a short description of the ideas, and inside the perimeter there are already techniques of those times, high-quality models, dioramas ...
        This is all OUR story ...
        1. Alexander Suvorov
          Alexander Suvorov 7 May 2020 23: 44 New
          12
          Chief of the Redskins (Nazarius)
          Arrange around the perimeter, the ring the SAME busts of significant military and political figures of that era.
          Another "conciliator" was found. Who are you going to put the busts to? Krasnov, Shkuro, Panvits, Mannerheim, Kolchak, Denikin, Yudenich, Wrangel, etc.? Well, expose, I will have someone to spit at. What is not a gold-running trash, then a traitor and Judas.
          I don’t understand such conciliators as you, are you ready to reconcile with anyone, with a white-haired abomination, with Bandera, with whom else are you ready to reconcile, who is next? Vlasov, Hitler, who is next in line for reconciliation?
          Your rotten position, if my grandfather held that position, then the Nazis would reconcile us both somewhere in the Zmievsky beam or somewhere else where you live there.
          1. The leader of the Redskins
            The leader of the Redskins 8 May 2020 06: 22 New
            -9
            Inattentively read, you are our invincible! I clearly indicated - write ACTS and not exploits! And the busts are the same - that would not exaltation, nor diminution!
            Will you spit in the monuments of Brusilov or Shaposhnikov too? Saliva is enough for the whole history of our long-suffering?
            1. Alexander Suvorov
              Alexander Suvorov 8 May 2020 09: 16 New
              +7
              Don't need your ROTTED excuses here. The question was specific, will you pose the busts to Krasnov, Shkuro, Panvitsa, Mannerheim with a description of their "exploits"? And if you will, whose busts will be opposite? Karbyshev, Shaposhnikov, Malinovsky? Do you want to reconcile them with each other? Dodelnik pancake ...
      4. IS-80_RVGK2
        IS-80_RVGK2 7 May 2020 23: 20 New
        +1
        You don't understand nichrome. You would have demanded the laws of physics to cancel which do not suit you. laughing
    4. Svarog
      Svarog 7 May 2020 14: 26 New
      +5
      Moreover, all further achievements and victories of our country are based on the victory of the Reds in the Civil War. In other words, today Russia is what it is, thanks to the fact that the red won, not the white. And what would happen if White won, we do not know and will never know.

      Russia is as it is, now thanks to the Vlasovites, who have been in power for 30 years.
      And thanks to the victory of the Reds, finally people became literate, they began to be treated free of charge, demography, despite several wars, rushed up, just like science, education industry ...
      Under the whites, we would have remained an agrarian underdeveloped power, which the Second World War would not have won .. with all the consequences ...
      1. Squelcher
        Squelcher 7 May 2020 14: 46 New
        -29
        When the whites, near Moscow, the Germans did not stand ....
        1. Svarog
          Svarog 7 May 2020 14: 47 New
          10
          Quote: Squelcher
          When the whites, near Moscow, the Germans did not stand ....

          Because there were no more whites, and if there were, then a German would be hosted beyond the Urals ..
          1. Lexus
            Lexus 7 May 2020 15: 28 New
            12
            Because there were no more whites, and if there were, then a German would be hosted beyond the Urals ..

            Now the Germans, Americans and others, as well as their hangers-on with dual or five citizenship and numerous residence permits, are in charge throughout Russia. The ball is ruled by the "blue".
            1. SVM
              SVM 7 May 2020 15: 32 New
              0
              Quote: lexus
              Because there were no more whites, and if there were, then a German would be hosted beyond the Urals ..

              Now the Germans, Americans and others, as well as their hangers-on with dual or five citizenship and numerous residence permits, are in charge throughout Russia. And the "blues" rule the ball.

              In fact, this is the case, they did not run away anywhere and again wait in the wings. To finally throw Russia into the abyss of unrest and blood .. There is another buildup of the country.
            2. IS-80_RVGK2
              IS-80_RVGK2 7 May 2020 23: 24 New
              +2
              Yeah, as always, some traitors, reptilians, conspiracy of Masons are to blame. Hand face. With such socialist communists no enemies are needed.
          2. Squelcher
            Squelcher 9 May 2020 01: 50 New
            -1
            So the communists signed the Brest peace?
        2. Barmaleyka
          Barmaleyka 7 May 2020 15: 05 New
          +8
          Quote: Squelcher
          When the whites, near Moscow, the Germans did not stand ....

          do you think you really wrote something wise? !!
          deeply mistaken
          in WWI, our country fought not with united Europe but with its part, in the west there was a fairly powerful front
          in the Second World War, we fought against a united Europe and the Germans did not have a Western front, and the entire European industry was working hard on the Reich
        3. tatra
          tatra 7 May 2020 15: 08 New
          12
          Millions of whites ran to grovel before the invaders of their homeland by the invaders and the Nazis, and after the capture of the USSR they made the collaborators of the Civil and Great Patriotic War their "heroes", and openly declared that Hitler was better for them than Stalin, that Hitler had to surrender the USSR to Hitler.
          1. SVM
            SVM 7 May 2020 18: 18 New
            +8
            Quote: tatra
            Millions of whites ran to grovel before the invaders of their homeland by the invaders and the Nazis, and after the capture of the USSR they made the collaborators of the Civil and Great Patriotic War their "heroes", and openly declared that Hitler was better for them than Stalin, that Hitler had to surrender the USSR to Hitler.

            All right hi .Now the Vlasovites in power have driven everything out of caches!
            It was the liberals who ruined the Russian empire ustat (the Mensheviks, Socialist-Revolutionaries and other white generals)
            The February revolution, it’s the 90s of the USSR, well, if you compare it roughly .. But the Bolsheviks took power when Peter and Moscow were left from Russia! And the Germans had already taken Ukraine and were approaching Peter along with all sorts .. In Arkhangelsk, the Anglo-Saxons, in the Far East, the Japanese .. Belochek!
          2. Vlad world
            Vlad world 7 May 2020 22: 22 New
            -3
            Well then. The deputy chief of intelligence of the Baltic military district on the second day of the war was already with the Germans. White means a communist. And there were many. Vlasov is also white in your opinion.
        4. Ryaruav
          Ryaruav 7 May 2020 18: 36 New
          +5
          with whites you are erudite, our German reached Tsaritsyn if you know where it is
      2. your1970
        your1970 11 May 2020 16: 41 New
        0
        Quote: Svarog
        demography, despite several wars, rushed up,
        -Remember that nowhere and never rushed up demographics not an indicator of a good life.
        It is enough to recall Africa with its frantic demography and Europe with its 1,8 child. When there is nothing to eat, the people begin to multiply, because workers are needed ...
        And this is confirmed by the USSR in the 70-80s: when they began to live well - the number of children began to decline
    5. populist
      populist 7 May 2020 14: 37 New
      +7
      For whom would I go in 1917 - the question is false and meaningless. hi To answer this question, one had to live at that time and occupy a certain position in society.
      The so-called “white idea” is inflated by the authorities to deceive the masses, manipulate the consciousness of the population and create their own social base. wassat
      Behind this false white-red contradiction, as behind a screen, you can create various dark affairs and pump trillions of dollars out of the country. bully
    6. Same lech
      Same lech 7 May 2020 14: 41 New
      +6
      In relation to some crooks at that time it was possible as General Charnoth used to say ... Well Paramosha smile I would purposely sign up for the Reds ... I would shoot you and write you back.
    7. Civil
      Civil 7 May 2020 17: 44 New
      +7
      At the moment, whites have won, gentlemen in the parliaments of all levels - the majority.
    8. nickname7
      nickname7 11 May 2020 15: 19 New
      0
      . First of all, where could one take so many landowners and capitalists in the country to make whole armies of them

      The author froze stupidity, where is it visible that the owner of the ship, worked as a sailor? The capitalist does not personally fight, he hires for money and drinks brandy on the beach, fights with the wrong hands
  2. Barmaleyka
    Barmaleyka 7 May 2020 14: 13 New
    +3
    When the USSR collapsed, either our people had the wisdom, or the stars just came together, but the sharp political contradictions, fortunately, did not cause armed clashes. Neither revolution nor civil war happened then.
    and here you can argue
    and the revolution happened and civil war, which is not on the territory of the USSR to this day
  3. Virus-free crown
    Virus-free crown 7 May 2020 14: 13 New
    +9
    I'll tell you about my grandfather, who was for the "red" ...

    If during the abolition of serfdom all the peasants would have been distributed land - there would have been no revolution at all ...

    My grandfather fought NOT for the Reds - but for the land - he was promised and he became "red" ...
    1. Barmaleyka
      Barmaleyka 7 May 2020 14: 15 New
      +1
      Quote: Corona without virus
      If during the abolition of serfdom all the peasants would have been distributed land - there would have been no revolution at all ...

      I think that it would be, in the first the revolution did not happen because of the land, in the second the peasants, although they were the majority in the Republic of Ingushetia, but they were not the driving force in the BOTH revolutions, February and October
      1. Virus-free crown
        Virus-free crown 7 May 2020 14: 30 New
        0
        I base myself on the words of my grandfather: if he had his own land, he would defend his property both against the "whites" and against the "reds" bully

        in his village, almost everyone began to fight for the "red" - because of the land - they were promised "red"))

        without such "hicks" the Bolsheviks would not be able to defeat the "whites"
        1. Barmaleyka
          Barmaleyka 7 May 2020 14: 37 New
          +1
          Quote: Corona without virus
          he would defend his property against both the "whites" and the "reds" with arms in hand

          based on the history of those who fought with both the red and the white there was enough result we know
          Quote: Corona without virus
          without such "hicks" the Bolsheviks would not be able to defeat the "whites"

          and if Catherine hadn’t turned the nobles from the service class into parasites, if Peter hadn’t messed up, if ...
          then the revolution could not have taken place in 17, something happened to which the Romanovs led the strona for at least 300 years, maybe not a rag Nicholas came to power, but again, history showed that this did not happen in the dynasty, maybe everything turned out differently
          1. Virus-free crown
            Virus-free crown 7 May 2020 14: 39 New
            10
            The power at that time - by 1917, SO had screwed up - that the Revolution was only a matter of time ...
            Everyone hated everyone ... well, right now)))
            1. mat-vey
              mat-vey 7 May 2020 14: 59 New
              +4
              Quote: Corona without virus
              Power by that time - by 1917, SO

              Well, here's the answer to the "if" - there could be no "if" no one who gave up the land, the whites fought mainly for something that would again become as it was with some disagreements how to arrange this "new" as it was ".
              1. Virus-free crown
                Virus-free crown 7 May 2020 15: 08 New
                -2
                Let's explain on the fingers)))
                My grandfather’s landowner had about 2000 hectares of land — and in the village there were 1000 peasants — what prevented them from giving out peasants from serfdom to distribute 1 hectare per ROD ??? and the peasants would have a landowner in their arms would have worn dust particles from him))) but would not have burned the estate in 1917, and they would have hanged him on a birch ...
                1. mat-vey
                  mat-vey 7 May 2020 15: 10 New
                  +1
                  And what is the explanation? Once again - no one was going to distribute the land ... They are at the top - they decide their affairs, and the people are down there and do not care what he is and how ...
                  1. Virus-free crown
                    Virus-free crown 7 May 2020 15: 28 New
                    -1
                    I apologize, I could not convey the idea that I’m here on the same side of the barricade with you !!! hi drinks
                    1. mat-vey
                      mat-vey 7 May 2020 15: 46 New
                      +2
                      Well, maybe I was too "short" .... but it's just that the whole story before the "abolition" of serfdom, after which it shows - no one considered the people for people. And the whites did not change their attitude towards the people.
                      1. Virus-free crown
                        Virus-free crown 7 May 2020 15: 50 New
                        +2
                        Quote: mat-vey
                        Well, maybe I was too "short" .... but it's just that the whole story before the "abolition" of serfdom, after which it shows - no one considered the people for people. And the whites did not change their attitude towards the people.

                        here !!! drinks
                        when, after the February Revolution, peasants in the village of my grandfather decided that freedom had come and divided the land of the landowner, then literally a month later a detachment of Cossacks and EVERYTHING rushed into the village !!! the male population was flogged with rods ... My grandfather until his death at 86 years old could not forget his shame ... Therefore, after the October Revolution the body of the landowner was already hung on a birch)))
                      2. mat-vey
                        mat-vey 7 May 2020 15: 54 New
                        +2
                        Quote: Corona without virus
                        Therefore, after the October Revolution, the body of the landowner was already hung on a birch)))

                        In-in, and here many about the "red terror" drown. Yes, the Bolsheviks often had to restrain the peasants on the contrary ..
                      3. Virus-free crown
                        Virus-free crown 7 May 2020 16: 02 New
                        +2
                        I confirm))) According to my grandfather, when some kind of "white" army entered their village after the distribution of land to the peasants from the Reds and demanded "eggs and milk" - the village still has two cemeteries - near and far ... on the far just that detachment is buried ... well, then they buried all suicides and all such ...
            2. Sertorius
              Sertorius 7 May 2020 16: 22 New
              +9
              which prevented the distribution of peasants from serfdom to distribute 1 ha

              Somewhere we already heard. At the classic. P.P. Balls. Almost literally.
              In fact, after this the peasants would fight each other because the neighbor got the land better, then it turned out that in addition to land, he needed a horse to plow the land, and he, the infection, was only at the landowner in a commercial quantity, the seed stock had already been devoured , because they’re used to it being borrowed by the same landowner, and if not the crop, who should borrow the grain from? In short, they would burn down the landowner’s estate, the neighbor’s house - and on the big road.
              Your reasoning stumbles over your ignorance about how the mechanisms of the Russian peasant community worked as a form of collective farming, including in landowner estates. You also obviously do not know that since the time of Alexander the First, the share of enslaved peasants decreased by the reform of 1861 and amounted to about 35% of the total population of the country. That is, the majority of the population in the village lived as a community.
              Since the 90s, it has been dumbed to us that collective farms are a violent form of management. But the collective farm had a prototype familiar to the peasants — the peasant community, which is why the introduction of the collective farm form of management did not lead to the social collapse of agriculture. The Communists clearly understood what they were doing.
              Discussions about free farmers with their own hectare are the tales of modern "economists". As a result, after the "successful" transition from collective forms of management to the so-called. "Farming" in Russia, all the land was first in the shares of former collective farmers, and then - in the hands of modern landowners - agricultural holdings. An excellent result of good intentions from the "share everything" series. Respectfully, brought up in the USSR.
              1. Virus-free crown
                Virus-free crown 7 May 2020 16: 32 New
                -3
                About the "community" lol
                Actually, at the disposal of the grandfather’s family — father, mother, 9 children — the community allocated 10 acres if rude ...
                My business had two options - FOREVER becoming a laborer for a penny or going to the city ... I have known my grandfather all my life - I believe him !!! am drinks

                About the division of land in his village in 1917 after the February Revolution - that there wasn’t a single incident that someone would kill someone when the land of Pans was divided among their own, brotherly))) EVERYTHING !!! were satisfied !!! laughing

                On the collective farm - yes, they drove - the grandfather himself participated as a grinder repeat current from 2000 hectares of land to the collective farm took 1000 hectares of land, and the rest was distributed among the peasants ...

                ... and I need to hang noodles on my ears, I myself remember my childhood as a "slave in the galleys", when closer to autumn I had to dig out potatoes in the fields of my grandfather - I still cannot forget how my back hurt))) and this my grandfather did NOT have the largest plot in the village laughing
                1. Sertorius
                  Sertorius 7 May 2020 16: 49 New
                  0
                  There was not a single case that someone would kill someone when the land of Pans was divided between their

                  This is the only argument you have made. Unfortunately, it is not true. After the revolution, there was no need to "restore justice" in the uneven distribution of goods expropriated from landowners by means of murder. It was enough to inform the state authorities about the counter-revolutionary activities of the neighbor - and now he is dispossessed. This is the story of my family. As Zinoviev wrote - democracy as it is. At the same time, mind you, I am defending the Soviet regime. Yes! And you, too, minus. For the lack of constructiveness in the discussion.
                  1. Virus-free crown
                    Virus-free crown 7 May 2020 17: 00 New
                    +1
                    My grandfather was in the forefront of those who "drove the people into collective farms" - I confess hi

                    Only now, when I walked around the village as a boy, everyone respected me respectfully !!!

                    For all the land at their disposal was in bulk !!! And the main problem for everyone was how to harvest laughing This is me talking about the USSR about 1970-1980 drinks Therefore, there was a principle like this - "today I help you collect potatoes in your field - tomorrow is the opposite" drinks
                  2. Sertorius
                    Sertorius 7 May 2020 17: 10 New
                    +1
                    For all the land at their disposal was in bulk !!! And the main PROBLEM for everyone was - how to harvest a laugh. I'm talking about the 1970-1980 years about the USSR drinks

                    Are we talking about one country? My grain was imported after experiments with corn. We still have enough land. Only now she is not yours and mine. hi
                  3. Virus-free crown
                    Virus-free crown 7 May 2020 17: 15 New
                    -1
                    Quote: Sertorius
                    For all the land at their disposal was in bulk !!! And the main PROBLEM for everyone was - how to harvest a laugh. I'm talking about the 1970-1980 years about the USSR drinks

                    Are we talking about one country? My grain was imported after experiments with corn. We still have enough land. Only now she is not yours and mine. hi

                    About one)))

                    At the same time, when corn on the fields of our collective farm forced us to grow corn, but it didn’t grow in our country, and made us pay exorbitant taxes for each bush or tree, at the same time my relatives planted potatoes on their personal lands survived))) There were a lot of potatoes - because there was NOT a tax on it)))
                  4. Sergej1972
                    Sergej1972 7 May 2020 20: 05 New
                    -3
                    For each bush and tree they took under Stalin.
                  5. Virus-free crown
                    Virus-free crown 7 May 2020 20: 16 New
                    +3
                    What are you saying !!! bully
                    When Steel didn’t, my grandfather planted and grew his apple orchard, but he personally cut down under the root with crunch
          2. mat-vey
            mat-vey 7 May 2020 17: 07 New
            0
            Quote: Sertorius
            This is the only argument you have made. Unfortunately, it is not true.

            And your "arguments-reasoning" and what "reality" are based?
          3. Virus-free crown
            Virus-free crown 7 May 2020 17: 11 New
            -2
            Quote: Sertorius
            ... This is the story of my family already. As Zinoviev wrote, democracy is as it is. At the same time, note that I defend the Soviet government. Yes! And you too minus. For the lack of constructive discussion.


            a brief history of my family wassat

            I PERSONALLY believe that "less than 5 cm is not dirt, but more - it will fall off by itself" drinks

            but my Zhinka believes that even ONE speck of dust is a mess lol laughing

            however, we have been living together for 20 years crying

            and here - "Let 1000 flowers bloom" - (c) Chinese folk wisdom - everyone is right)))
        2. Sergej1972
          Sergej1972 7 May 2020 20: 03 New
          +3
          What kind of community is this, in which a large family had ten hundredths? Maybe ten acres?
      2. Sergej1972
        Sergej1972 7 May 2020 20: 20 New
        +1
        Read Vorontsov, Danielson, and Lenin. The community also existed among the landlord peasants until the abolition of serfdom. There were differences in its functioning among the landlords, state and specific peasants. Relative unification occurred after the abolition of serfdom. Communities were very different from each other, because their activities were based on customary laws that differ in different places. In some places she was alive, in others (among individualistic Ukrainians, for example) she was nominal. Some communities were redistributable, others refused redistribution. Somewhere the community and rural society coincided, somewhere not all members of the rural society were part of the community. And 90% of the work was done by members of the community by individual yards. Comparison with the collective farm is incorrect, because the community was not a production unit. And collective labor was not particularly practiced there.
    2. Barmaleyka
      Barmaleyka 7 May 2020 17: 53 New
      -1
      Quote: Corona without virus
      what prevented the release of peasants from serfdom to distribute 1 ha per ROD ???

      and community in the form of a community would allow ?!
      1. Virus-free crown
        Virus-free crown 7 May 2020 18: 00 New
        -3
        After the February Revolution, "society" distributed the same hi what prevented this from being done after the abolition of serfdom ?! laughing
        1. Barmaleyka
          Barmaleyka 7 May 2020 18: 06 New
          -3
          do not compare the role of the community in 1861 and in 1917, and the leadership of the Bolsheviks is difficult to compare with the womanizer and rake Alexander 2
          1. Virus-free crown
            Virus-free crown 7 May 2020 18: 11 New
            -2
            Quote: Barmaleyka
            do not compare the role of the community in 1861 and in 1917, and the leadership of the Bolsheviks is difficult to compare with the womanizer and rake Alexander 2

            I will answer tricky, "scientific" - "Practice is the criterion of truth" drinks

            Something after the abolition of slavery in 1861, NO one happy working peasant in our village died ... bully Grandfather told me how his grandfather - at that time - almost went into a bout - my grandfather’s grandfather didn’t understand the abolition of slavery - then his landowner ripped off ... - THEN people already wanted land and will)))
          2. Barmaleyka
            Barmaleyka 7 May 2020 18: 19 New
            0
            Quote: Corona without virus
            Something after the abolition of slavery in 1861, NO one happy working peasant in our village died ...

            let's not rush slavery and serfdom are two different things
            Quote: Corona without virus
            already THEN the people wanted land and will)))

            leave the stamps again, you are aware that many just didn’t really want to be free, there are different reasons for this, but the fact is the fact
          3. Virus-free crown
            Virus-free crown 7 May 2020 18: 33 New
            -2
            Quote: Barmaleyka
            Quote: Corona without virus
            Something after the abolition of slavery in 1861, NO one happy working peasant in our village died ...

            let's not rush slavery and serfdom are two different things
            Quote: Corona without virus
            already THEN the people wanted land and will)))

            leave the stamps again, you are aware that many just didn’t really want to be free, there are different reasons for this, but the fact is the fact

            This is NOT the first forum, where I would recommend giving the opportunity to write only to those who can READ in the Forum Rules;)

            you about the FURTHER cemetery of my village have read that ?! wassat
          4. Barmaleyka
            Barmaleyka 7 May 2020 19: 27 New
            +1
            Well, read something on the topic of serfdom, and do not make yourself an intellectual master
        2. IS-80_RVGK2
          IS-80_RVGK2 7 May 2020 23: 41 New
          -1
          Quote: Barmaleyka
          slavery and serfdom are two different things

          But by the efforts of our valiant nobles in the Republic of Ingushetia, one practically did not differ from the other.
        3. Barmaleyka
          Barmaleyka 8 May 2020 07: 05 New
          -1
          not really, by study the laws of that time
  • Sergej1972
    Sergej1972 7 May 2020 20: 24 New
    +3
    In fact, most of the yards had several hectares of land. In most communities there were redistributions, which were carried out at regular intervals. The amount of land depended most often on the number of male souls in the family. In addition, wealthy peasants bought land, it was considered private property and the community did not have any rights in relation to it.
  • Sklendarka
    Sklendarka 7 May 2020 18: 08 New
    0
    Hit the whites until they turn red
    Beat the Reds until they turn white.
    The inscription on the cart in the film "Adjutant ..."
  • Cyril G ...
    Cyril G ... 7 May 2020 14: 43 New
    +2
    Yes, the peasants were released, but how !!!! And yes, the revolution of the 17th year is the fruit of the greed and stupidity of the then noble elite. They freed the pancake, and the land in the mortgage for 49 years !!!
    1. Virus-free crown
      Virus-free crown 7 May 2020 14: 53 New
      -3
      Well, imagine the "freedom" of the seventh youngest son in a peasant family without land hi
      A young boy, hormones are seething, and "no cola, no yard" - and even in PROSPECTIVE - only a farm laborer wrestle all his life - well, or in the city where the thread is going request
      ALL!!! that's all the perspectives ...
      1. 2 Level Advisor
        2 Level Advisor 7 May 2020 16: 43 New
        -2
        The peasants who wanted this could get the land on a mortgage since 1907, under the Stolypin reforms, and when resettling beyond the Urals, there were many more - and in fact in installments .. From this appeared "kulaks" who were not afraid to take risks and who, as you say, their land and got hold of it, though not for free ..
        Probably the grandfather meant that right here they will give for free ..
        1. Virus-free crown
          Virus-free crown 7 May 2020 16: 49 New
          +1
          Tek-s ... "project" the then situation to the present time wink

          You are 17 years old ... NI penniless ... a pregnant wife is in her arms ... call me a bank, where will you contact me right away and they will give you a mortgage on your house and land ??? honestly asking - WITHOUT jokes))
          1. 2 Level Advisor
            2 Level Advisor 7 May 2020 23: 54 New
            0
            without jokes .. everything is the same (wife, child) .. 29 years old .. start-took a loan, sold the car .. rented an office .. and after 10 years of round-the-clock work, I’m sure, in moderation, in myself and in the future .. and about the mortgage .. yes, then that’s what they gave it to everyone who desires and takes a chance .. I’m not joking, don’t believe, read about the Stolypin reforms .. and now, yes, they won’t give it ...
            1. Virus-free crown
              Virus-free crown 8 May 2020 00: 30 New
              0
              Quote: 2 level advisor
              without jokes .. everything is the same (wife, child) .. 29 years old .. start-took a loan, sold the car .. rented an office .. and after 10 years of round-the-clock work, I’m sure, in moderation, in myself and in the future .. and about the mortgage .. yes, then that’s what they gave it to everyone who desires and takes a chance .. I’m not joking, don’t believe, read about the Stolypin reforms .. and now, yes, they won’t give it ...

              in our outback, where my 17-year-old grandfather lived, they did not even hear about any Stolypin reforms (((
              I personally myself, from the age of 17, have been making a living myself)) I asked about the principle)) if it were right now - even the 18th kid - where could he immediately get a loan and a mortgage ??? )
              1. 2 Level Advisor
                2 Level Advisor 8 May 2020 00: 39 New
                0
                Nowhere. Then they gave. This is my answer .. but for the fact whether my grandfather heard about the reforms - you will not answer, you cannot know .. maybe - there are "good" officials - what they did not bring, maybe something else .. I just stated the facts, as it was according to the laws .. but there is a fact, about the reforms and many who took advantage of them, the kulaks came out of there .. ah, 100 years ago, boy, if he knew, he could take the land, but now he cannot ... that's all fact .. but then, I myself, from the age of 16, went to the military, after school, on my own ..
                1. Virus-free crown
                  Virus-free crown 8 May 2020 00: 43 New
                  -1
                  I don’t know how in your area at that time, and then my grandfather - an active Komsomol member - could be determined in kulaks when after the October revolution they were given land and he began to plow on his hectare like papa Carlo with my grandmother))) " lived - did not grieve "- in short;) gave land - worked - earned good
                2. 2 Level Advisor
                  2 Level Advisor 8 May 2020 00: 46 New
                  +4
                  well, that’s what it is about .. my ancestors are the same .. at first they were distributed, then taken away .. and if according to my ancestors, half of mine fought on the side of the Reds and half for the white .. where I would go now, I don’t know .. God forbid, do not choose this ...
                3. Virus-free crown
                  Virus-free crown 8 May 2020 00: 59 New
                  +2
                  laughing my family situation is even funnier)) My grandfather is a Komsomolets - (in those years it was wow !!!) - Zhinka's grandfather - a repressed fist from Ukraine, who was relocated to the Urals by the whole family crying according to noneshnye views - roughly - I would be for "white" then - my wife would be for "red" then fool
  • Sergej1972
    Sergej1972 7 May 2020 20: 27 New
    +3
    After the abolition of serfdom, landowner property was declining every year, and at a fairly rapid pace.
  • Leo_59
    Leo_59 7 May 2020 15: 01 New
    +1
    Crown, how did your grandfather assess the outcome of his life? Did he get what he wanted? This I mean that the author (not original) calls to find our "idea". (Apparently, we lost her movement during the campaign .. :)
    1. Virus-free crown
      Virus-free crown 7 May 2020 15: 30 New
      -2
      Got!!! Until now, in the village, as a grandfather’s house, about 1 hectare of the new owner’s property was sold wink
      1. Leo_59
        Leo_59 7 May 2020 15: 54 New
        +1
        Glad for him :)) (and his successor). I hope your grandfather This Happiness has had a long period of his life ...
        I heard that in Belarus, even the elderly people are single-handedly controlled (with the sensitive support of the state), even from 8 hectares! :))
  • Ryaruav
    Ryaruav 7 May 2020 18: 59 New
    +6
    even if White carried out a land reform and distributed the land to the peasants very quickly, these hopes would have ended up among the kulaks and further to the latifundists, these are the laws of the capitalist economy, but the collective farms saved the poorest peasantry from tearing away, and all the good things happen immediately tomorrow, fight for it and I have to work, I was lucky to live with Leonid Ilyich, before that the Russian people never lived like that
  • AU Ivanov.
    AU Ivanov. 7 May 2020 15: 13 New
    -8
    But he never received the land. To promise is not to marry.
    1. Virus-free crown
      Virus-free crown 7 May 2020 15: 32 New
      +3
      He replied that he received 1 ha))) in a previous post

      Another question is that under Khrushchev, he cut down his apple orchard with tears in his eyes, because the tax on each tree was such that it became cheaper to buy apples in the store am
      1. Sergej1972
        Sergej1972 7 May 2020 20: 36 New
        -1
        And my relatives told how under Stalin such a tax was paid, and, as collective farmers, and from personal subsidiary plots, they were obliged to hand over milk and eggs according to certain standards. According to their stories, just under Malenkov and under Khrushchev, living in a village has become better and easier compared to the late Stalin era. Large (seven children) my father’s parents built a good house for those times in Khrushchev’s times. And just then apple trees were planted. With all the eccentricities of Khrushchev, in 1964 the collective farmers lived richer than in 1953.
        1. Virus-free crown
          Virus-free crown 7 May 2020 20: 46 New
          0
          Quote: Sergej1972
          And my relatives told how under Stalin such a tax was paid, and, as collective farmers, and from personal subsidiary plots, they were obliged to hand over milk and eggs according to certain standards. According to their stories, just under Malenkov and under Khrushchev, living in a village has become better and easier compared to the late Stalin era. Large (seven children) my father’s parents built a good house for those times in Khrushchev’s times. And just then apple trees were planted. With all the eccentricities of Khrushchev, in 1964 the collective farmers lived richer than in 1953.

          Here is my grandfather how he returned from the war - in 1946 and planted his garden (to be honest - the deadline expired - I bought some of the seedlings from the kolkhoz apple garden guard))) but when Khrushchev came to him, they described EVERY bush and tree and They rolled out such a tax that my grandfather drank without drying for a week (this was already said by my grandmother) and then 90 percent I personally cut down with an ax - I only had a dozen apple trees and 1 pear left with me
  • sergo1914
    sergo1914 7 May 2020 14: 16 New
    11
    The red idea united wide sections of the population. White idea ... Better keep silent.
    1. tatra
      tatra 7 May 2020 15: 18 New
      +7
      And for 100 years, the "whites" did not have any other idea, except for the maniacal fix idea of ​​RETAKING the country from the "red", and shamanic spells about "freedom" with which they seized the USSR, with which they arrange their "color" coups - Maidans on the territory of the captured USSR.
      1. 2 Level Advisor
        2 Level Advisor 8 May 2020 00: 22 New
        -3
        You have a strange notion of whites .. they have nothing to do with America and color revolutions, they have nothing to do with it, they fought for Russia, not the USA, and they all died for a long time - and in poverty (in the majority), in the capitalist world .. however, like the red ones, it’s not at the helm ..
        Maybe they were wrong, but color revolutions do not apply to them.
  • demo
    demo 7 May 2020 14: 17 New
    12
    When the USSR collapsed, either our people had the wisdom, or the stars just came together, but the sharp political contradictions, fortunately, did not cause armed clashes. Neither revolution nor civil war happened then.
    Transnistria, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and many others are not armed conflicts. But Georgia, Azerbaijan, Armenia - are peaceful demonstrations followed by fraternization of the parties?
    Or does the author mean Russia?
    What about Chechnya?
    These are all links of one chain.
    The collapse of the country - the USSR led to a series of bloody skirmishes.
    And the displacement of Russians from the former "union" republics - is that a voluntary and calm departure "to their native land"?
    And in Russia itself, the war of those who were born here with those who were forced to move here is what if not a war?
    For years and decades people have to prove that they are not "camels".
    And we, "indigenous" and do not care about this.
    "Nashahataskrayushniki" - that's who we are.
    1. Jager
      Jager 7 May 2020 14: 35 New
      +7
      Ukraine with its kookies, with the Crimea and the Donbass - these are the echoes of the collapse of the USSR. It can also be attributed to Yugoslavia.
      1. demo
        demo 7 May 2020 18: 00 New
        +2
        I specifically did not mention these conflicts.
        Since they are very distant conflicts.
        The USSR collapsed well, not at all peaceful. And to declare that the blood did not spill is from the category of illiteracy and spit.
        It didn’t spill as much as in Civil - yes. And thank God.
        But we know our national mentality. Just give us. Then you won’t stop.

        Even the fact that the impoverished and robbed population could not "fit into the market" at once is not a deliberate murder.
        After all, the ghouls knew where they were pushing the country.
        And with pleasure sadists pushed.
        And now they are not just living out their lives, but also in power and in money.

        All. I can’t calmly write about it.
  • lucul
    lucul 7 May 2020 14: 19 New
    +1
    Never, never will you adequately consider and sort out the history of the Revolution and the Civil War in Russia, if you do not understand who was the customer in it and who was the executor. All historians "close their eyes" to the customers of the revolution, and strenuously procrastinate only the topic of performers ...
    And as you know, to investigate a case only by examining the performer means that you don’t really know anything ....
    1. Barmaleyka
      Barmaleyka 7 May 2020 14: 29 New
      +2
      Quote: lucul
      All historians "close their eyes" to the customers of the revolution, and strenuously procrastinate only the topic of performers ...

      the problem is not in the customers and not in the performers, the problem is that the Romanovs like Gorbachev in 91 stupidly merged
      the situation and 17 and 91 are absolutely identical
      in both cases, they destroyed the foundation of the leveling natural centrifugal forces in the Empire in 17 it was the institution of the monarchy (with a good or bad monarch this is a separate topic) and in 91 they destroyed the Institute of the CPSU and in 17 and 91 the authorities which were supposed to counteract the collapse of statehood she withdrew, even if at 17, Thu at 91 in power, a strong-willed person with no fear of blood, everything could have gone differently, regardless of the Wishlist of the real customers of both revolutions
      1. demo
        demo 7 May 2020 18: 02 New
        +5
        the situation and 17 and 91 are absolutely identical
        The monarchy was destroyed by the court hangers-on.
        The CPSU destroyed the Supreme Changeling.
    2. Jager
      Jager 7 May 2020 14: 34 New
      10
      In a healthy state, revolution is impossible.
      1. Virus-free crown
        Virus-free crown 7 May 2020 14: 37 New
        0
        Totally agree!
      2. AU Ivanov.
        AU Ivanov. 7 May 2020 14: 46 New
        +1
        But any state can be infected artificially. Today, with such a development of political technologies - easily.
        1. Jager
          Jager 7 May 2020 14: 47 New
          0
          Political technologies have always been, the difference in methods and in the situation of a particular moment.
        2. Virus-free crown
          Virus-free crown 7 May 2020 15: 46 New
          -1
          Quote: AU Ivanov.
          But any state can be infected artificially. Today, with such a development of political technologies - easily.


          Come on, tell me how you can infect me "artificially"? )))
          1. demo
            demo 7 May 2020 18: 18 New
            +3
            You know, here's the thing.
            Suppose you are a person of harmonious views, possessing an analytical mind, staunchness and balanced psyche.
            Reformatting you is a waste of time.
            But according to sociologists, depending on belonging to different social groups that are engaged in different types of activities (someone grows bread, someone pours metal, someone designs mechanisms, someone conducts research, someone puts on plays and makes films, and someone else is so young and not formed as a person), there is a clear percentage of degenerates.
            And each group has its own percentage.
            According to the list that I provided, it increases from 10% to 90%.
            Degenerate - Certain gene defects that accumulate from generation to generation.
            A striking representative of the degenerate was Alois Johann Schilkgruber (Adolf Hitler at home).
            And such degenerates in commonwealth with the same begin first to bear overt heresy and nonsense over a beer.
            They are looked at as eccentric and malacholny.
            If they arrange small coups, then they are planted, for a year or two.
            And on parole release.
            And then they come to power and impose everything on those who looked at them as idiots from their point of view on everything and everything. And they also control everyone. So as not to filonil and not pretend.
            So.
            You can be sure that no one will persuade you.
            Your place will be similar to you at best on the sidelines of the life that will come.
            This is at best.
            Otherwise - a concentration camp and smoke through the pipe.

            Sorry for the grim script.
            But history has such an amazing property - to repeat.
            And I know for sure that there will also be a place for me if nothing is done.
            1. Virus-free crown
              Virus-free crown 7 May 2020 18: 47 New
              +2
              ok, I’ll answer with a fresh example = literally = in less than a week smile

              Self-isolation, Moscow region, "Marya Ivanovna" are sitting on a bench at their entrance, admiring the sun - because before that it was cold here ...

              Our local police officer (and the sun with us - the windows all opened - so I listened to the whole yard)))

              A BRIEF POLITIC AND MULTI-MATREMATUS OF THEIR half-hour conversation can be reduced to several phrases:

              - "Mary Ivanovna", we have self-isolation, all the business, I ask you to return home!
              - "Kolka", damn it, why did you "confuse the banks" ?! YES WE KNOW YOU WITH DIAPERS !!! You are not a decree to us !!!
              - It was ordered by the Most Important !!!
              - Then tell this Most Important Person that you will never learn more, "what is Vaska doing from apartment 7" am

              "Vaska from apartment 7" then almost kissed their feet ...))) But the district police officer became the enemy of "Mary Ivanovna" number 1 - the second is, as always, "Vaska from apartment 7" yes

              Well, here's the question: WHO infected "Mary Ivanovnyh" out of the blue ???? !!! what Where are the vorogami ??? who infected them ??? ... it seems that at the same time there was NOT a single foreign spy - the entire yard is a witness)))
        3. Vlad world
          Vlad world 7 May 2020 18: 44 New
          +1
          Not necessarily need modern political technology. But the Russian state was indeed infected with the infection. And the infection was brought and developed by Peter and it is called - worship of the West and Contempt for one’s own people.
          Well, then the process went on developing.
      3. Barmaleyka
        Barmaleyka 7 May 2020 15: 08 New
        -1
        Quote: Jager
        In a healthy state, revolution is impossible.

        difficult question
        firstly there are no absolutely healthy states, except for a swarm of bees, everything is specifically delineated there, secondly, most revolutions are made in capitals and very often look like ordinary palace coups, a beautiful fairy tale is populated to the population, and a new government begins its life
    3. Svarog
      Svarog 7 May 2020 14: 45 New
      -1
      if you don’t understand who was the customer in it

      People, a simple layman was customers .. Try to raise people who live in a relatively fair society, where laws work and everyone is equal before the law and at the same time there is a social package from the state .. In such a society, no one will organize a revolution, because people don’t raise .. But where there are huge problems that are not solved .. is it possible ..
      1. Barmaleyka
        Barmaleyka 7 May 2020 15: 08 New
        -2
        Quote: Svarog
        In such a society, no one will organize a revolution, because people will not be raised ..

        Are you serious, but people generally ask someone? !!!
        1. Svarog
          Svarog 7 May 2020 15: 12 New
          +1
          Quote: Barmaleyka
          Are you serious, but people generally ask someone? !!!

          And without a people, a revolution will not work .. have you seen a lot of revolutions without the participation of the masses? wassat Not coups .. namely revolutions ..
          1. Barmaleyka
            Barmaleyka 7 May 2020 15: 15 New
            -2
            Quote: Svarog
            And without a people, a revolution will not work .. have you seen a lot of revolutions without the participation of the masses?

            ALL
            or do you think that in 17 the masses did a revolution ?? !!!!!
            so no in October quietly entered the winter without the cries of shots and other tinsel, it was the same in October

            the people you speak of are used as extras after
            1. Virus-free crown
              Virus-free crown 7 May 2020 19: 09 New
              0
              I DO NOT like to get personal, but this is NOT the first time you write, such nonsense that "ears fade" (((

              Well, they entered, made a coup, but after all, it is ONE more precisely the masses that sided with the Bolsheviks throughout the country !!!
              Did you study the history of your country at school? or so, "in Kamchatka" played tic-tac-toe? fool
              1. Barmaleyka
                Barmaleyka 7 May 2020 19: 26 New
                -3
                well, it’s not necessary to twist the mind a lot, what masses supported the drunk in 91, people stupidly confronted the fact, also in 17 after someone who was forcibly voluntarily attracted and involved in the process, ANY revolution is made by a bunch of associates and not by the masses
                1. Virus-free crown
                  Virus-free crown 7 May 2020 19: 33 New
                  -1
                  Quote: Barmaleyka
                  well, it’s not necessary to twist the mind a lot, what masses supported the drunk in 91, people stupidly confronted the fact, also in 17 after someone who was forcibly voluntarily attracted and involved in the process, ANY revolution is made by a bunch of associates and not by the masses

                  I’ve never COMMONLY been Yeltsin in '91 when, on August 19, a LOT of people from the army students personally agitated and brought to the barricades on the evening of August 19 am

                  Do you know = WHY ?! wassat because on TV these pi ... pi ... pi ... STATED that ALL army students will be sent for potatoes am am am

                  as soon as I told my friends and acquaintances about this - in an instant 30+ people from the hostel were loaded with empty bottles and we rushed to defend OURS !!! freedom DO NOT ride potatoes !!! hi bully
                  1. Cyril G ...
                    Cyril G ... 7 May 2020 20: 39 New
                    +1
                    Nifiga you do not understand what a thrill for a potato ride !!! laughing
                    1. Virus-free crown
                      Virus-free crown 7 May 2020 20: 50 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Cyril G ...
                      Nifiga you do not understand what a thrill for a potato ride !!! laughing

                      in the army "left" laughing
                      autumn, early morning, +5 degrees "in chocolate", you are walking behind a tractor in one cotton, picking potatoes and SIN in its exhaust gases tongue good
                      1. Cyril G ...
                        Cyril G ... 7 May 2020 21: 28 New
                        +2
                        And at school and already in the navy. It was necessary to appreciate .... Hehe .. Schaub was specially frozen I don’t remember this ...
                      2. Virus-free crown
                        Virus-free crown 7 May 2020 21: 40 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Cyril G ...
                        And at school and already in the navy. It was necessary to appreciate .... Hehe .. Schaub was specially frozen I don’t remember this ...

                        nobody specially froze us specially)))
                        rise at 6 in the morning - and at 8 in the morning we are already picking potatoes))) according to the rules - it is too early to give winter clothes, but freezing at night)))
                      3. Cyril G ...
                        Cyril G ... 9 May 2020 11: 03 New
                        0
                        By the way, pea jackets quite all the summer even were at hand, you never know.
                      4. Virus-free crown
                        Virus-free crown 9 May 2020 11: 06 New
                        0
                        and we, land, jackets were not supposed hi
        2. Vlad world
          Vlad world 7 May 2020 22: 44 New
          -3
          Well, the masses of the people were against the Bolsheviks — the Tambov uprising, in the Kronstad, and so on. Read the slogans-for the Soviets without the Bolsheviks.
          And on the side of the Bolsheviks were the Bund fighting detachments, Latvian arrows, Chinese detachments, socially close criminals, their own fighting detachments, and so on. Look at the percentage of the leadership of the repressive organs - yes and units. Especially at the beginning.
          So do not talk about the people. And we are a little interested in history and know how the official history is lying.
          1. IS-80_RVGK2
            IS-80_RVGK2 7 May 2020 23: 49 New
            +5
            O Fomenkovists from the petty bourgeoisie arrived. And they gave a ton of hidden knowledge to the mountain. laughing
        3. AU Ivanov.
          AU Ivanov. 8 May 2020 00: 18 New
          -7
          50/50 Half supported the White movement. Otherwise, there would have been no civil war. And the school taught history in a distorted communist interpretation.
          1. Cyril G ...
            Cyril G ... 8 May 2020 11: 05 New
            +2
            Far from half. You're wrong.
            1. AU Ivanov.
              AU Ivanov. 8 May 2020 11: 57 New
              -2
              If it were much smaller, then there would be no civil war lasting several years. There would be a rebellion that the Reds would quickly crush. In reality, a force of comparable strength was opposed by red.
              1. Cyril G ...
                Cyril G ... 8 May 2020 13: 10 New
                +2
                This is not true. In addition, you decided to forget about the interventionists, as well as the rebellion of the Czech Corps at once crushing the country into enclaves
                1. AU Ivanov.
                  AU Ivanov. 8 May 2020 13: 20 New
                  -2
                  The interventionists rendered assistance to the White Movement was purely nominal; they pursued their own goals. The third force. The Czechs also fought for their interests, and not for the Soviet power and not for the One and the Indivisible.
                2. Cyril G ...
                  Cyril G ... 8 May 2020 13: 21 New
                  +1
                  Read did not try anything?
                3. AU Ivanov.
                  AU Ivanov. 8 May 2020 13: 29 New
                  -1
                  In the end, the Entente White movement threw a banal. There is such an opinion and I completely agree with him:
                  “The meaning of the so-called intervention in Russia was also not at all in the goal of crushing Bolshevism and communist ideology, but also not in the goal of helping the White movement to restore the former united Russia. The main motives were always geopolitical and military-strategic, which explains the alternate cooperation or partnership. with the Red Army against the White, then on the contrary, which ended as a whole in the Entente's betrayal of the White Army. The policy of the Entente was an example of ignorance towards its ally Russia and reflected the attitude towards it as prey for plunder. "
                4. Cyril G ...
                  Cyril G ... 8 May 2020 13: 31 New
                  +1
                  Already warmer. For it was precisely in 1918 that the Chekhov insurgency provoked from the outside and provoked an essentially full-scale war.
  • AU Ivanov.
    AU Ivanov. 8 May 2020 00: 28 New
    -4
    The February revolution is a revolution from above. The people acted as an extras in a carefully rehearsed play. Since the artificial famine in the capital.
  • mat-vey
    mat-vey 7 May 2020 16: 33 New
    +2
    Quote: Barmaleyka
    and people generally ask someone? !!!

    And who, in your understanding, are the people? These same "whites" are actually people too ... And all the Bolsheviks with Mensheviks, Socialist-Revolutionaries and Cadets, and the same monarchists ..
    1. Barmaleyka
      Barmaleyka 7 May 2020 17: 55 New
      -2
      Quote: mat-vey
      And all the Bolsheviks with the Mensheviks, Socialist-Revolutionaries and Cadets, and the same monarchists ..

      the people themselves are no one, before the advent of Bonaparte, Robespierre, Lenin, ....
      the people sit quietly and only after the above individuals commit with a handful of loyal supporters do the people begin to move
  • Sertorius
    Sertorius 7 May 2020 16: 34 New
    0
    All historians "close their eyes" to the customers of the revolution

    Again a conspiracy of "damned" historians. lol I think historians themselves served as the cause of the revolution with all its troubles. yes
    There is no need to name the guilty at once - they with their socio-economic reasons and prerequisites.
  • iouris
    iouris 7 May 2020 14: 20 New
    12
    It is not abstract ideas that divide the population, but the results of privatization, private ownership of the means of production, a way of appropriating what is being produced, monstrous exploitation, the disempowerment of most workers, cultural counter-revolution carried out.
    1. Cyril G ...
      Cyril G ... 7 May 2020 20: 40 New
      +2
      That's right, I will add a lack of elementary justice in relation to the poorer strata
  • Demagogue
    Demagogue 7 May 2020 14: 27 New
    -18
    The modern population of Russia has nothing to do with whites. 99.9 percent are descendants of serfs. Half of the urban educated population of the Republic of Ingushetia died in ruin or migrated. The rest finished off from the late 20s to the 37th inclusive. From here we have a modern state. A pyramid with slaves at the bottom and overseers from the organs at the top. What generation of descendants of serfs will be able to create a full-fledged state, God alone knows. Under the tsar, at least there was a full-fledged local government, not the current booth. At least in some structures, people organized themselves. And in general, as a result, what was the point of changing the pre-revolutionary elite with the aristocracy, albeit annoying, for the gopniks, it is not clear. Now a crowd will come running to agitate for the USSR. You can not write your valuable thoughts to me, I lived there and do not want to. If the scoop worked, then it would work until now, and did not fall apart.
    1. unaha
      unaha 7 May 2020 14: 56 New
      -12
      100 years of negative selection ... alas ...
      1. tatra
        tatra 7 May 2020 15: 23 New
        +7
        And you can immediately see a person with the mentality of "whites", who have a contemptuous attitude towards both the people in the Russian Empire and the Soviet people, and towards the peoples in the USSR republics they have captured, and a Kholui admiration for the rich and noble parasites on the necks of the people, who they declared it "the gene pool and color of the nation."
        1. unaha
          unaha 7 May 2020 15: 34 New
          -6
          somehow overly pathetic)))
          And the "Soviet people" joyfully applauded any leader who had grasped power, and then (as now) complained about the "traitors" of the country.
          How does it turn out that a wonderful nation in a better state has either a head or a traitor?
          1. tatra
            tatra 7 May 2020 15: 42 New
            +9
            One of the distinguishing qualities of the "whites" / anti-Soviet people is that whenever they write about them, they compare them with the "red" -Soviet people, accuse them, they equally respond on the cowardly principle of "self", "defense through attack", with malice against the Soviet the people, blaming the Soviet people for blame and responsibility. None of their "whites" are capable of defending themselves and each other.
            1. unaha
              unaha 7 May 2020 16: 07 New
              -3
              One of the distinctive qualities of the orthodox, regardless of "color", is the representation of the world in a polar form - theirs / foes. Whereas I do not speak from the position of any "camp" and am guided solely by logic and common sense.
              And since the techie - the expression of words is not impressive at all. I would have the facts, and preferably in numbers.
              1. IS-80_RVGK2
                IS-80_RVGK2 7 May 2020 23: 57 New
                +5
                What can you do. These are our techies in the ege era. And about the logic is not necessary .. she asked to convey that you are not friends with her. laughing
                1. unaha
                  unaha 8 May 2020 10: 30 New
                  -3
                  Of course, when there is nothing to say on the essence of the issue under discussion, we switch to individuals. )
                  1. IS-80_RVGK2
                    IS-80_RVGK2 8 May 2020 11: 09 New
                    0
                    So I said in fact, your personality as well. laughing
                    1. unaha
                      unaha 8 May 2020 11: 54 New
                      0
                      And when there is nothing to answer at all, rudeness begins. Nothing new )
                      1. IS-80_RVGK2
                        IS-80_RVGK2 8 May 2020 12: 15 New
                        -1
                        Do you propose to discuss for the hundredth time your impolite nonsense from State Department manuals dragged to holes?
                      2. unaha
                        unaha 8 May 2020 12: 20 New
                        0
                        You are a troll. That's all.
                      3. IS-80_RVGK2
                        IS-80_RVGK2 8 May 2020 12: 30 New
                        -1
                        It is impossible with you otherwise. laughing
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. Demagogue
        Demagogue 8 May 2020 08: 20 New
        -4
        These people do not understand that their state propaganda pushed for striving into the Soviet past. In their ignorance, they see their beliefs as a fig even against the state. In fact, the Soviet period has long been meaningfully popularized with us. The reason is simple, any government needs legitimacy. It is impossible to draw it in pre-revolutionary Russia. Just people who associate themselves with ri, a minimum. And in the USSR there was a huge layer of population who did not want to consider themselves losers from an inferior state. It `s naturally. And that is why power derives legitimacy from succession with the scoop. Officially, on the sidelines they are all kings and princes. From the scoop it’s easier to lead, there were all rootless there, this is not a genealogy to lead to Rurik. In general, discussing with washed people is pointless. Let them think that they will soon return to the USSR.
        1. IS-80_RVGK2
          IS-80_RVGK2 8 May 2020 09: 45 New
          0
          Here you are not at all surprised. Not that our people are not that. Does not understand the benefits of an elite whip. laughing legitimacy, elite, family trees. You didn’t move on kukukha on monarchism an hour?
    2. unaha
      unaha 8 May 2020 10: 43 New
      -1
      "And you can immediately see a person with a" white "mentality, who have a contemptuous attitude towards both the people in the Russian Empire and the Soviet people" - this is such a veiled statement that as a result of several wars and fundamental breakdowns of the state system, the selection was purely positive?
      1. IS-80_RVGK2
        IS-80_RVGK2 8 May 2020 11: 15 New
        0
        You check on everyone. The tail of the horns and hooves you have not grown for an hour from a purely negative selection. laughing
  • IS-80_RVGK2
    IS-80_RVGK2 7 May 2020 23: 53 New
    +5
    ..
    Quote: unaha
    100 years of negative selection ... alas ...

    .. and you turned out. laughing
  • AU Ivanov.
    AU Ivanov. 7 May 2020 15: 06 New
    0
    Denikin, as the son of a former serf, is related to the White movement. And what else.
  • Barmaleyka
    Barmaleyka 7 May 2020 15: 10 New
    0
    Quote: Demagogue
    And in general, in the end, what was the point of changing the pre-revolutionary elite

    the problem is that in 17, the elite ceased to be an elite; a civil war showed it specifically
    Quote: Demagogue
    I lived there and do not want to. If the scoop worked, then it would work until now, and did not fall apart.

    Excuse me, but who were you there, that the particular was bad PERSONAL FOR YOU?
  • iouris
    iouris 7 May 2020 20: 33 New
    +3
    Quote: Demagogue
    I lived there and do not want to

    And nobody asks you what you want. And the topic is relevant: they will begin soon.
  • Sergej1972
    Sergej1972 7 May 2020 20: 43 New
    0
    Serf landowner peasants accounted for a third of the country's population by 1861. There was still a huge stratum of state peasants, with a different mentality.
  • IS-80_RVGK2
    IS-80_RVGK2 7 May 2020 23: 52 New
    0
    Are you our elite or what?
  • victor50
    victor50 8 May 2020 21: 00 New
    0
    Quote: Demagogue
    If the scoop worked, then it would work until now, and did not fall apart.

    If the capitalist RI worked, it would still work, and did not fall apart in 1917. laughing
  • Pvi1206
    Pvi1206 7 May 2020 14: 27 New
    0
    After the victory of the Reds, did the people receive what they counted on or not, this is a completely different question.

    people used ... people are free ... the result of any revolution ...
  • Courier
    Courier 7 May 2020 14: 29 New
    -8
    Achievements thanks to the red, I agree, but that's all crime also because of them.
    The Brest peace and subversive activities on the fronts of World War I are the merit of the Reds, because of this they got Hitler and 1 years old.
    Without this, Russia would now be, with all of Poland, with straits and with a population of under half a billion.
    1. Cyril G ...
      Cyril G ... 7 May 2020 14: 40 New
      +1
      None of this would have happened. We look at Romania and penetrate. There wouldn’t be any straits
      1. unaha
        unaha 7 May 2020 14: 58 New
        -3
        Neither the straits, nor Poland (and many other things, either) would definitely not exist. But the population of half a billion is not excluded.
    2. Jager
      Jager 7 May 2020 14: 56 New
      +4
      The collapse of the state is entirely the fault of Nicholas II. That desire to arrange a small victorious war that ended in incredible shame, then the entrance to the First World War. Destroyed, by the way, 4 empires! Plus absolutely crooked controls. But in fairness, Nicholas received a state that is already moving into peak E, and it was very difficult to get out of it. Personal mistakes and mistakes of past rulers reached a critical mass. So it exploded. And it was not the Bolsheviks who became the detonator, but their own intelligentsia.
      1. Doctor
        Doctor 7 May 2020 15: 11 New
        -5
        But in fairness, Nicholas received a state that is already moving into peak E, and it was very difficult to get out of it.

        Yes there was no peak, a slight decline maximum.
        Just do not get involved in meaningless wars and everything will be OK.
        Remove from the Nikolaev history Russian-Japanese and the First World War and there would not smell of any revolution.
        Now the same song, 9 years in Syria, no end in sight, zero meaning.
        1. Kronos
          Kronos 7 May 2020 15: 47 New
          +3
          And the exploitation of the working class was far from intensifying; they did not want to give the right to the people, so it’s not only about wars
          1. Sergej1972
            Sergej1972 7 May 2020 20: 46 New
            +1
            Even in Soviet textbooks, the fact of the adoption of a fairly progressive labor legislation of the 90s was recognized. 19th century. The only thing is that it did not apply to small enterprises.
            1. Kronos
              Kronos 7 May 2020 20: 48 New
              +3
              Strange, but the salary of workers was less than that of other developed countries, the number of educated also as medicine
      2. Kapellan23
        Kapellan23 7 May 2020 17: 22 New
        -9
        Stalin, too, in the 41st wanted to arrange a small victorious war?
        1. Barmaleyka
          Barmaleyka 7 May 2020 17: 59 New
          +1
          Quote: Kapellan23
          Stalin, too, in the 41st wanted to arrange a small victorious war?
          a rezuna or something to read at night
        2. Kronos
          Kronos 7 May 2020 20: 48 New
          +3
          Did Stalin attack Germany?
    3. Barmaleyka
      Barmaleyka 7 May 2020 17: 58 New
      +1
      Quote: Courier
      Without this, Russia would now be, with all of Poland, with straits and with a population of under half a billion.

      and who would allow this to Russia? !!!!
      would be the next "Berlin congress" with all the following things
      By the way, you forgot to mention the loss of the RI part of Sakhalin and the entire ridge
      1. Sergej1972
        Sergej1972 7 May 2020 20: 49 New
        +1
        The ridge was given to the Japanese in 1875 in exchange for recognizing Sakhalin as Russian.
      2. Kronos
        Kronos 7 May 2020 20: 50 New
        0
        All empires fell apart anyway in the 20th century the last were British
    4. Deniska999
      Deniska999 7 May 2020 18: 23 New
      0
      How do you know how it would be? It is absolutely unrealistic to predict.
    5. IS-80_RVGK2
      IS-80_RVGK2 8 May 2020 00: 03 New
      +2
      Yeah, there would be a galactic RI and interstellar empire ships plowed the expanses of the universe. Good grass. laughing
  • Doccor18
    Doccor18 7 May 2020 14: 30 New
    14
    "It seems to me that both red and
    It’s high time to consider white ideas as part of our history, to relate
    to her with respect ... "

    And what was the white idea?
    To regain undeserved wealth and further practical
    exploit 95% of its
    people? Yes there was no
    what an idea.
    They went for the red ones, because
    what they promised equality
    and justice for everyone.
    And the "Kolchakites" are even running out
    skillfully robbed of their struggle
    Siberian peasants than
    more expedited their end.
    1. AU Ivanov.
      AU Ivanov. 7 May 2020 14: 51 New
      -10
      And what did the big landowners and manufacturers fight in the White Army? By that time they were sitting in Paris. The same Denikin - the son of a serf, did not acquire wealth, all of his privileges, as a general, are deserved by military labor.
      1. tatra
        tatra 7 May 2020 15: 28 New
        +8
        "Whites" all 100 years after the October Revolution prove that you were eager to take the country away from the "Reds", but none of you is able to answer - WHY? That is why, for what purpose, and for whom did Denikin yearn to seize Russia? For what power and socio-economic System for Russia and its people. I read his memoirs, but I could not find an answer.
      2. Kronos
        Kronos 7 May 2020 15: 49 New
        +2
        Yes, it was the nobles mainly and Cossacks + rich peasants. They just didn’t need the poor because they were going to leave the land as it was before in the bourgeoisie
        1. AU Ivanov.
          AU Ivanov. 7 May 2020 18: 12 New
          -8
          Nobles in RI were only 1,5%. And that’s it. A prosperous peasant is a hard worker, and the Cossack, in addition to farming, also defended his homeland. And with his equipment.
          1. IS-80_RVGK2
            IS-80_RVGK2 8 May 2020 00: 09 New
            +4
            Yeah, a hard worker stripping his own villagers. And the Cossack defended, including the ruling class, from its own people, dissatisfied with poverty and lack of rights.
  • knn54
    knn54 7 May 2020 14: 32 New
    +6
    The Bolsheviks saved Russia from plunder and even partition.
    For everything was in the hands of foreigners — bowels, banks, factories, steamboats.
    The intervention provided, first of all, for the return of property, weakening Russia by the Civil War.
    And disputes are needed for those who do not want to allow the unity of the Society.
    1. AU Ivanov.
      AU Ivanov. 7 May 2020 15: 10 New
      -16
      Is that all right? Morozov, Putilov, Ryabushinsky and a whole list of large entrepreneurs, since when did they become foreigners? The Bolsheviks brought the country to ruin, and then heroically overcame it. Because in the field of economics they couldn’t even hit the dirt with their fist - Theoretical.
      1. Kronos
        Kronos 7 May 2020 15: 50 New
        +5
        Morozov, Putilov, Ryabushinsky are no better than foreign bloodsuckers
        1. AU Ivanov.
          AU Ivanov. 7 May 2020 18: 16 New
          -8
          Bloodsuckers were just Bolsheviks. Especially with the food surplus you live great. This is a gangster method: to squeeze out from the peasant the products that they later raised on their own. No wonder food detachments with weapons were. But they were also planted in the pitchfork.
          1. Kronos
            Kronos 7 May 2020 18: 18 New
            +8
            An additional reconnaissance was conducted by the tsar in 1916
            1. AU Ivanov.
              AU Ivanov. 8 May 2020 00: 10 New
              -7
              Entered. We bought food from peasants at a fixed price. But they didn’t take it away, like the Bolsheviks. Feel the difference.
      2. Barmaleyka
        Barmaleyka 7 May 2020 18: 01 New
        +1
        Quote: AS Ivanov.
        The Bolsheviks brought the country to ruin, and then heroically overcame it.

        Do not specify what happened from February to October ?!
        by the way, for the sake of interest, find out what role Morozov played in the creation of the Bolsheviks.
        1. AU Ivanov.
          AU Ivanov. 7 May 2020 18: 08 New
          -10
          The main devastation began after the October Revolution, with the introduction of the policy of war communism and the subsequent collapse of the financial system. Morozov is sorry, a man was a beautiful soul, a philanthropist. The Bolsheviks used it, where promises, and where threats.
          1. Barmaleyka
            Barmaleyka 7 May 2020 18: 17 New
            +4
            Quote: AS Ivanov.
            and the subsequent collapse of the financial system

            and you do not know that the financial system collapsed just by the efforts of the interim government?
            Quote: AS Ivanov.
            The Bolsheviks used it, where promises, and where threats.

            oh, let's not talk about the naivete of Russian merchants and industrialists, not funny
            1. IS-80_RVGK2
              IS-80_RVGK2 8 May 2020 00: 10 New
              +5
              Quote: Barmaleyka
              and you do not know that the financial system collapsed just by the efforts of the interim government?

              Which is not surprising if there were the same economic talents as ace Ivanov. laughing
            2. AU Ivanov.
              AU Ivanov. 8 May 2020 00: 11 New
              -6
              Morozov was an idealist, which destroyed him. I chose the wrong company.
      3. IS-80_RVGK2
        IS-80_RVGK2 8 May 2020 00: 05 New
        +7
        You still live on the economic achievements of these theorists, storyteller.
  • Amateur
    Amateur 7 May 2020 14: 35 New
    +2
    Valley of the Fallen (Spanish: Valle de los Caídos) is a monumental complex in Spain, not far from the Escorial Monastery, 58 km from Madrid in the mountains of Guadarrama, including a Catholic basilica, abbey and memorial. It covers an area of ​​1365 hectares. The bodies of more than 33 civilian casualties on both sides are buried here.

    Franco wanted to reconcile the nation and bury all those who fell in this war under the motto "Those who died for God and Spain."

    Franco himself was also buried there. But the current "democrats" threw his body out of the memorial cemetery.
    The former dictator Francisco Franco, who had been in power for almost 40 years, was reburied in Spain. The coffin with its remains was transferred from the Valley of the Fallen to the Mingorrubio cemetery, where the politician’s wife rests.

    To settle scores with the dead, monuments and memorials is a favorite pastime of the current "crap" around the world.
    1. Kapellan23
      Kapellan23 7 May 2020 17: 25 New
      -4
      Only in Spain in the government are not "democrats", but "socialists". For them, “Settling scores with the dead, monuments and memorials” is a favorite pastime.
      1. Amateur
        Amateur 7 May 2020 17: 27 New
        +1
        Only in Spain in the government are not “democrats", but "socialists"

        Do you distinguish between them? How. Share please.
        1. Kapellan23
          Kapellan23 7 May 2020 18: 23 New
          -5
          Party The chairman of the government is called the "Socialist Workers Party".
      2. Kronos
        Kronos 7 May 2020 18: 19 New
        +5
        I did not know that the Christians who demolished the monuments and temples of the pagans are socialists
      3. IS-80_RVGK2
        IS-80_RVGK2 8 May 2020 00: 14 New
        +7
        There is nowhere for a seal on your Eurosocialists. There has long been one name from socialism. Political institutions that protect the interests of capital and fool the people.
    2. Kronos
      Kronos 7 May 2020 18: 18 New
      +5
      correctly made the monuments to the Nazis and Provakov do not need
  • Doctor
    Doctor 7 May 2020 14: 39 New
    -5
    One of the main features of the Civil War, which was hidden throughout the Soviet period, was that both the Red and White armies were actually red and white.
    More precisely, white and red.

    Both there and there, the officer corps consisted mainly of former officers of the tsarist army, and non-commissioners and soldiers from peasants.

    Most these the commanders of the Red Army were then liquidated in the course of the "Spring" case and other cases, and colorful characters like Chapaev were put in the foreground.

    Of the people, Budyonny achieved the deservedly highest position, and he became the main symbol of the "commander of the Red Army".
    1. AU Ivanov.
      AU Ivanov. 7 May 2020 15: 12 New
      -1
      Do not forget that Budyonny is also the full holder of the St. George Cross, received for Faith, Tsar and Fatherland. This is a warrior.
      1. Doctor
        Doctor 7 May 2020 15: 26 New
        0
        Do not forget that Budyonny is also the full holder of the St. George Cross, received for Faith, Tsar and Fatherland. This is a warrior.

        That is yes. But I was talking about something else.
        Budyonny army commander. Fasting high. But he also had a boss.
        We all remember and know our illustrious marshals during the Second World War. As a rule, they commanded the fronts.
        Do we remember the commanders of the fronts of the Red Army in the Civil?
        For example, the head of Budenny, the commander of the Western Front, Comrade Egorov.



        In the photo he has 4 orders. But actually there is still:

        Order of St. Stanislav III degree (VP of March 10, 1907).
        Cross “The 50th Anniversary of the End of the Caucasian Wars” (EaP from August 31, 1909).
        Medal "In memory of the 100th anniversary of the Patriotic War of 1812" (August 15, 1912)
        Medal “In memory of the 300th anniversary of the reign of the Romanov dynasty” (February 21, 1913)
        Order of St. Anne of the III degree (VP of April 6, 1914).
        Order of St. Anne of the IV degree (VP of March 30, 1915).
        swords and bow to the Order of St. Anne of the III degree (VP from March 30, 1915).
        Order of St. Stanislav II degree with swords (VP ​​of May 30, 1915).
        Order of St. Anne of the II degree with swords (VP ​​of October 23, 1915)
        St. George's weapon - for the battle of Busk on August 13, 1914 (VP from January 24, 1917.)
        Order of St. Vladimir of the IV degree with swords and bow (VP from February 12, 1917).
        1. AU Ivanov.
          AU Ivanov. 7 May 2020 18: 21 New
          +3
          Zhukov - two George
          Rokossovsky - one George
          Malinovsky - one George
          Vasilevsky - Anna and Stanislav.
          1. Doctor
            Doctor 7 May 2020 18: 32 New
            -1
            Zhukov - two George
            Rokossovsky - one George
            Malinovsky - one George
            Vasilevsky - Anna and Stanislav.


            Yes. But they were lucky, their posts in the Civil were small, inconspicuous.
            And I'm talking about the top command of the Red Army. Which 90% consisted of the same royal officers.

            No white and red.
            White-red versus white-red.

            The main secret of the Civil War. Therefore, they could not write her story for a long time. And now it’s not really written.
    2. tatra
      tatra 7 May 2020 15: 31 New
      14
      What nonsense was it that the Civil War was hidden under the USSR? It is you, the "whites" who are throwing out from the history of our country all facts that are unfavorable to you, including the White Terror and the atrocities of the interventionists, the atrocities of the Nazis against the Soviet people. It is clear, because you were allies of both the interventionists and the Nazis.
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. Kronos
          Kronos 7 May 2020 15: 51 New
          10
          And the Reds aren’t close. Even at the beginning, the white gang commanders were released on parole
          1. Doctor
            Doctor 9 May 2020 14: 59 New
            0
            And the Reds aren’t close. Even at the beginning, the white gang commanders were released on parole

            Who for example? Have specific surnames?
            1. Cyril G ...
              Cyril G ... 9 May 2020 15: 13 New
              +2
              Krasnov himself was arrested, but then released on parole not to oppose the Soviet government. He broke his word, went to the Don, where he continued the anti-Bolshevik struggle

              This is for example, and he is not alone.
      2. Doctor
        Doctor 7 May 2020 16: 07 New
        +1
        What kind of nonsense was they hiding the Civil War during the USSR?

        We saw the commander of the Western Front, Egorov, the immediate chief of Budenny.
        And who else served with Semyon Mikhailovich under his command?

        The composition of the Western Front except the First Horse included:

        12th army, commander Nikolai Alexandrovich Zhdanov, major general of the tsarist army.
        Awards:
        He was awarded the Order of St. George 4th degree (July 31, 1917, for the difference in command of the 43rd Siberian Rifle Regiment) and St. George's Arms (August 20, 1916).
        Also awarded the Order of St. Stanislav 3rd degree (1898); St. Anne of the 3rd degree (1907); St. Stanislav 2nd degree (1908); St. Vladimir 4th degree (1910); St. Vladimir 3rd degree (1913); St. Anne of the 2nd degree with swords (12.1914); swords for the Order of St. Vladimir 3rd degree (12.1914). The highest favor (28.05.1915/XNUMX/XNUMX; for differences in business).


        3rd Army, commander Mikhail Stepanovich Matiyasevich, colonel of the tsarist army.
        From the nobility of the Smolensk province. He graduated from the Yaroslavl Cadet Corps (1895) and the Odessa Infantry Junker School (1897). In 1904, with the outbreak of the Russo-Japanese War, with the rank of lieutenant, he voluntarily departed for the theater of operations as part of the 220th Epifansky Infantry Regiment.
        Awards:
        For this battle near Liaoyang on the Shahe River, he was awarded the Order of St. Anne of the 4th degree with the inscription "For Courage"

        4th Army, commander Gaspar Karapetovich Voskanov, lieutenant colonel of the tsarist army.
        Awards:
        Order of St. Anna IV-th degree with the inscription "For Bravery" (VP 3.01.1915)
        St. George's Arms (VP ​​18.07.1915/XNUMX/XNUMX)
        Order of St. Stanislav of the 20.10.1915rd degree with swords and bow (VP XNUMX)
        Order of St. George 4th degree (VP 29.07.1916).
        Two orders of the Red Banner (1920 - No. 3143, 1922 - No. 221 with the mark "2").


        15th Army, Commander Mezheninov, Sergey Alexandrovich, Captain of the Tsarist Army
        Awards:
        Order of St. Anne of the 4th degree with the inscription "For courage" (VP 10.02.1915)
        Order of St. Vladimir, 4th degree (VP 7.05.1915)
        Order of St. Anne of the 3rd degree with swords and bow (13.09.1916/4/XNUMX) [XNUMX]
        Order of St. Stanislaus of the 2 degree with swords (10.04.1917)
        Order of the Red Banner (1922).
        Order of the Red Star


        Have you heard about these heroes of the Civil War?
        Want to know who their chiefs of staff were?
        Or go down to the level of divisions?
        Or maybe not a little thing, because in the Red Army there was more than one Western Front?
      3. Doctor
        Doctor 7 May 2020 16: 42 New
        +3
        What kind of nonsense was they hiding the Civil War during the USSR?

        Do you know who commanded the entire Red Army in the Civil War?
        Probably think Comrade Ulyanov, or (pah, pah) Comrade Bronstein?

        Get to know:
        First Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of the RSFSR (from September 1, 1918 to July 9, 1919)

        Vatsetis Ioakim Ioakimovich, Colonel of the Russian Imperial Army.


        Awards:
        Order of St. Stanislav 3rd degree (1906)
        Order of St. Anne of the 3rd degree (16.03.1911)
        Order of St. Stanislav 2rd degree (6.06.1914)
        Order of St. Vladimir 3rd degree with swords (10.04.1917/XNUMX/XNUMX)
        swords for the Order of St. Stanislav 2nd degree (29.05.1917/XNUMX/XNUMX)
        4th degree St. George's Cross (1917, by order of the regiment’s soldiers ’meeting)
        Order of the Red Banner (20.02.1928)
        Order of the Red Star (15.01.1934/XNUMX/XNUMX)


        Second Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of the Republic (from July 10, 1919 to April 1924)
        Kamenev, Sergey Sergeevich, Colonel of the Russian Imperial Army.
        Here he is still a young student of the Nikolaev Academy of the General Staff.



        Awards:
        Order of St. Stanislav 3rd degree (06.12.1912).
        Order of St. Anne 3-th degree (05.03.1915)
        Order of St. Stanislav of the 2 degree (2.04.1915)
        Order of St. Anne of the 2nd degree with swords (15.04.1916/XNUMX/XNUMX).
        Order of the Red Banner (1920)
        Order of the Red Banner of the Khorezm People's Soviet Republic (30.12.1921/XNUMX/XNUMX)
        Order of the Red Crescent, 1st degree, Bukhara People's Soviet Republic (17.08.1922/XNUMX/XNUMX)
        Golden military weapon with the sign of the Order of the Red Banner
        Honorary revolutionary weapon (1919)


        It was these "comrades" who defeated the "whites".
      4. Kapellan23
        Kapellan23 7 May 2020 17: 29 New
        -9
        So the terrorist group “International” was the interventionists fighting against the Russian army.
        1. iouris
          iouris 8 May 2020 10: 20 New
          -1
          Short story.
          The Russian army disintegrated. It was corrupted by the leaders of the "industrial party" closely associated with the "Western democracies" (especially the British!), Who overthrew the tsarist regime in order to seize power. They seized power, but could not keep it. The generals and officers, who violated the oath given to the emperor, and "supported the bourgeois-democratic revolution" dreamed of accelerating their careers and rising, but after the revolution they found themselves in the position of a "spherical horse in a complete vacuum", the soldiers raised them ... on bayonets.
          The Bolsheviks turned out to be the only force. Obviously, some grouping in the General Staff made a bet on them, and this (was) the most thinking and informed part of the military organization.
      5. AU Ivanov.
        AU Ivanov. 7 May 2020 18: 23 New
        -9
        They did not hide the civil war under the USSR, everything was much worse - it was romanticized. We romanticized the shameful page of our history when a brother went to his brother and his son against his father.
      6. Doctor
        Doctor 7 May 2020 18: 36 New
        +3
        What nonsense, that they were hiding the Civil War during the USSR? What nonsense, that they were hiding the Civil War during the USSR?

        We continue to recognize the heroes of the Civil War.
        General Staff of the Reds.
        Comrade Stalin was headed by Zhukov, Shaposhnikov, Vasilevsky Antonov.

        And who is Comrade Trotsky? Who planned the rout of the white hordes? Who are these red heroes?
        At first the General Staff of the Reds was called the headquarters of the PBC, then the Field Headquarters, then the General Headquarters, and finally the headquarters of the Red Army.

        From 1918 to 1924, the chiefs of the General Staff Reds were:
        Rattel Nikolai Iosifovich - RIA Major General.



        Kostyaev Fedor Vasilievich - RIA Major General. (Second row, rightmost).



        Bonch-Bruevich Mikhail Dmitrievich - RIA Major General.



        Lebedev, Pavel Pavlovich - RIA Major General.



        And then ...
      7. Doctor
        Doctor 7 May 2020 18: 42 New
        +3
        What kind of nonsense was they hiding the Civil War during the USSR?


        Chiefs of General Staff Workers and Peasants Red Army. To be continued.

        Stogov - Nikolai Nikolaevich - Lieutenant General of the RIA.



        Svechin Alexander Andreevich - RIA Major General.



        And then Rattel again.

        These are they, the commanders of the Red Army.

        Read their biographies to find out how the Bolsheviks thanked them for having won the Civil War for them.
    3. NordUral
      NordUral 7 May 2020 17: 20 New
      +3
      This is you, an hour, not about Tukhachevsky?
      1. Doctor
        Doctor 7 May 2020 17: 31 New
        -2
        This is you, an hour, not about Tukhachevsky?

        Partly about him.
        He is simply younger than the rest, therefore, at the RIA he rose to the rank of second lieutenant, but by half the nobleman, the cadet corps, the Alexander School, the Life Guards Semyonovsky Regiment.
        A career officer could very well be on the side of the whites.
        1. Cyril G ...
          Cyril G ... 9 May 2020 11: 26 New
          +1
          There are no half nobles. Tukhachevsky is either a nobleman or not. Whoever his mother was. Read something on the topic. Now about the officers. All these Bon-Bruevichs, Nemitsev, Snesarevs were forcibly driven into the Red Army? And nothing that about 30 percent of the highest officers of the Red Army in the Second World War quite managed to serve as officers of the RIA. Read the books "commanders", "corps corps" ....
          1. Doctor
            Doctor 9 May 2020 14: 51 New
            0
            All of these Bon-Bruevichs, Nemits, Snesarevs were forcibly driven into the Red Army? But nothing that about 30 percent of the top officers of the Red Army in the Second World War completely managed to serve as officers of the RIA.

            So I am about the same. The officer corps of both the white and the red consisted mainly of former RIA officers.
            But it is not customary to recall the real commanders of the Red Army by their last names, they know mainly the commanders of Budenny and Voroshilov, and of the commander of the 25th division Chapaev.
            But who remembers Chapaev’s neighbor, the commander of the 24th division, Lieutenant Pavlovsky?

            And by the way, they voluntarily entered the Red Army before the uprising of the Czechoslovak Corps, and from June 1918 - mobilization. If you want, you don’t want, but you have to ...
  • aybolyt678
    aybolyt678 7 May 2020 15: 06 New
    +5
    do not try to project a conflict of red and white today.

    from what? White they are not even for the king, they fought for bourgeois money ...
    this is firstly. secondly, today there is a conflict between the social and personal significance of actions, laws ....
  • Slavs
    Slavs 7 May 2020 15: 15 New
    +1
    And whose land was under the reds?
    1. AU Ivanov.
      AU Ivanov. 7 May 2020 15: 21 New
      -7
      State. It was given to the peasant for use, and by no means in ownership.
      1. Slavs
        Slavs 7 May 2020 15: 35 New
        +7
        All right. What's bad about it?
        Now the property of the elite and what is the result?
        1. AU Ivanov.
          AU Ivanov. 7 May 2020 15: 38 New
          -11
          What is so good about it? The farmer must be the owner of the land. In the full sense of the word.
          1. tatra
            tatra 7 May 2020 15: 50 New
            10
            Unlike your anti-Soviet myths, the Bolsheviks promised the people, then GIVEN. And the world - they took Russia out of the First World War, which was unnecessary for her and the people, and the factories and plants were given under "workers' control", and the land was distributed to the peasants. But the external and internal enemies of the Bolsheviks immediately after the October Revolution unleashed the Civil War with the aim of seizing and dismembering Russia, and the workers and peasants did not cope with the duties assigned to them. The industry became a mess, and the peasants, who produced 20% of food in the 90s compared to 1913, began to give away marketable grain - only 30% of the 1913 level, and in the late 20s, cards had to be introduced in the cities.
            1. AU Ivanov.
              AU Ivanov. 7 May 2020 16: 04 New
              -9
              Yeah, they gave it. Land for use, and then wrung out the fruits of peasant labor. Free of charge, that is, gratis, often together with seed, dooming peasants to starvation. The Tambov peasant uprising did not appear from scratch. Gas them and howitzer fire. In general, there were four times more peasant uprisings in the first 10 years of Soviet power than during the entire period of Nikolashka's rule. Not just like that, probably? And then, in general, they collectivized everything from the peasant, without asking his consent (hello to the "people's" government). The civil war is a direct consequence of the Bolsheviks' unwillingness to share power with other political parties, and, meanwhile, the elections to the Constituent Assembly of the RSDLP failed miserably. And the subsequent introduction of war communism finished off the already beaten industry and financial system, plus hit the peasantry.
              1. NordUral
                NordUral 7 May 2020 17: 00 New
                +9
                Andrew! The peasant's greed would have ruined the country. Read the novel by E. Zola "Earth". Ours did not differ from the French.
            2. Kapellan23
              Kapellan23 7 May 2020 17: 32 New
              -6
              Only after the conclusion of the "peace" the war continued and a huge territory was torn away from Russia, and then they organized a civil war, ditching the population 10 times more than died in the First World War.

              1. Barmaleyka
                Barmaleyka 7 May 2020 18: 04 New
                +6
                Quote: Kapellan23
                , ditching the population 10 times more than died in the First World War.

                show you a map with losses in '91?
                By the way, do not specify everything and it remains or all the same by the year 45 there have been changes ?!
              2. Ryaruav
                Ryaruav 7 May 2020 20: 04 New
                +3
                Well, how long did the Brest peace last?
        2. Vlad world
          Vlad world 7 May 2020 18: 59 New
          -2
          You don’t know
          Then millions of tons of grain were imported.
          And now we are exporting millions of tons of grain. And this is at minus 200 million hectares of sown area.
      2. IS-80_RVGK2
        IS-80_RVGK2 8 May 2020 00: 20 New
        +4
        And your state, like all adherents of capitalism, as always, is some kind of spherical in a vacuum? Or worker-peasant?
    2. aybolyt678
      aybolyt678 7 May 2020 16: 21 New
      +4
      Quote: Slavs
      And whose land was under the reds?

      state! means general, folk
      1. AU Ivanov.
        AU Ivanov. 8 May 2020 00: 03 New
        -5
        State means a draw.
        1. aybolyt678
          aybolyt678 8 May 2020 07: 07 New
          +3
          Quote: AS Ivanov.
          State means a draw.

          Private means a stranger! not everyone is destined to be born the son of a nobleman
  • nikvic46
    nikvic46 7 May 2020 15: 36 New
    -1
    We are the only country where civil war is still booming in our minds. And all this spilled over 30 years ago. There was no man like the king of Spain who called our people to the world. We pulled out a ghost and fight around it.
    1. Kronos
      Kronos 7 May 2020 15: 52 New
      +3
      Not at all in Finland or Spain so far many remember their civil wars
      1. Shadow
        Shadow 7 May 2020 16: 25 New
        +1
        Spain is more likely to have a national motive: the supporters of independent Catalonia benefit from the antagonism of the "country of victorious fascism" and "free and unyielding Catalans." Well, and the Spanish nationalists, who, if not Franco and Primo de Rivera, raise to the shield.
    2. mat-vey
      mat-vey 7 May 2020 15: 59 New
      +2
      Quote: nikvic46
      We, the only country where civil war is still booming in our minds, and all this spilled over 30 years ago

      That's how they started to forget, so 30 years and "poured out" ..
    3. IS-80_RVGK2
      IS-80_RVGK2 8 May 2020 00: 22 New
      +1
      This ghost is more alive than all living things. Both here and in Europe.
    4. Cyril G ...
      Cyril G ... 8 May 2020 11: 10 New
      +2
      We are far from the only one. Last year, and across the United States, relapses of their civilianism were expressed in the pogrom of monuments to the Southerners. So there was agreement, there is none. A new round is coming.
  • Leo_59
    Leo_59 7 May 2020 15: 41 New
    +4
    Since the author touched on "radishes";) (see my avatar), and China> CCP-Confucius, and, as a result, urged to look for the national idea, he could not refrain from commenting.
    Proposition # 1 is:

    As part of the VO in detail! to discuss the history of the Chinese phenomenon over the past 40 years.
    - How they cleverly used the "imperialists" and themselves "rose" by leaps and bounds,
    - how they have arranged (in detail!) now the national distribution system. product
    - how peaceful (for now) capitalism and socialism / communism coexist (rumored :))
    Etc....

    We will help, citizens, than we can, to our helpless Edru;)), the Communist Party, the Liberal Democratic Party and others ... !! Let us turn to all Doctor of Economics, academicians with these questions (this is to the editorial office of VO) !!
    1. aybolyt678
      aybolyt678 7 May 2020 16: 31 New
      +2
      Quote: Leo_59
      As part of the VO in detail! to discuss the history of the Chinese phenomenon over the past 40 years.

      write an article .. I think it will enrich readers and you with the help of comments laughing generally a good idea.
      Quote: Leo_59
      We will help, citizens, than we can, to our helpless Edru;)), the Communist Party, the Liberal Democratic Party and others
      how will we help them? they are self-sufficient. They are allocated money from the budget. Another thing is that the national idea in the form of patriotism is very much disliked by users of foreign goods, villas, cars, yachts, and the owners of the subsoil ... It is more like a torch of war than a unifying factor, due to the very different goals in power and population
      Quote: Leo_59
      - how peaceful (for now) capitalism and socialism / communism coexist (rumored :))

      As far as I understand, the main principle of the Chinese economy is the creation of industry-forming enterprises, machine tools, and the rest is already a small business. In agriculture, a private trader cannot hire more than seven people, that is, there is regulation and restriction of capitalism there.
      1. Leo_59
        Leo_59 7 May 2020 18: 45 New
        +5
        Thanks for support:)
        - I do not have detailed information on all my questions about modern China. And in the internet it is not, and in the media. It’s strange, because it cannot be secret (in theory).
        And I want to know all this. To make your suggestions # 2 and # 3 (so far intuitive and half-mature). Maybe someone else from VO readers also wants to know ...

        “My appeal to help our food parties is, of course, ironic, a hint of their terrifying meekness.”

        - It looks like you also have a superficial understanding of the Chinese economy >>
        Their most powerful manufacturing corporations (with billionaires) cannot be out of 8 people :)
    2. Flinkfan
      Flinkfan 7 May 2020 16: 49 New
      0
      Why discuss?
      In the wake of their refined anti-communism, their comrades wanted to ruin and show the worthlessness of one of the main tenets of communist ideology: there can be no antagonistic contradictions between proletarian states.
      At that time, Chinese friends ate sparrows, steel-cast iron in every village courtyard melted ....

      Well, they played it off, on their own head, slipping all their production to the Chinese proletariat for the evil bloody USSR.

      True, the Chinese did not particularly refuse sparrow delicacies ...
    3. Flinkfan
      Flinkfan 7 May 2020 17: 02 New
      0
      Why discuss?
      In the wake of their refined anti-communism, their comrades wanted to ruin and show the worthlessness of one of the main tenets of communist ideology: there can be no antagonistic contradictions between proletarian states.
      At that time, Chinese friends ate sparrows, steel-cast iron in every village courtyard melted ....

      Well, they played it off, on their own head, slipping all their production to the Chinese proletariat for the evil bloody USSR.

      True, the Chinese did not particularly refuse sparrow delicacies ...
    4. populist
      populist 7 May 2020 17: 43 New
      +2
      Quote: Leo_59
      Leo_59 (Sergey) Today, 15:41
      +1
      Since the author touched on "radishes";) (see my avatar), and China> CCP-Confucius, and, as a result, urged to look for the national idea, he could not refrain from commenting.
      Proposition # 1 is:

      As part of the VO in detail! to discuss the history of the Chinese phenomenon over the past 40 years.

      The Chinese path of the last 40 years has been well studied. In the newspaper "Tomorrow", a Chinese scholar Yuri Tavrovsky writes a lot on this subject. A supporter of the Chinese system is academician S. Glazyev. Glazyev calls this system integral. He has articles on Chinese experience. A sufficient number of books on the development of China have also been written.
      Only the authorities in Russia do not need this knowledge. In China, oligarchs and businessmen are developing the country under the leadership of the CCP and in the interests of the entire population. Our country serves as fertile soil for officials and oligarchs. Thus, the system in Russia is directly opposite to the Chinese and the Chinese experience is completely rejected.
      1. Leo_59
        Leo_59 7 May 2020 19: 15 New
        +2
        Thanks for the general tips.
        Your skepticism about "benefits for the authorities"
        understandable (it was my ironic passage to them), but without the widespread popularization of such valuable knowledge, our PEOPLE !! remains in ignorance and turns into a herd of helpless sheep, not knowing how it could be. And with what! real example.
        If you don’t know exactly what you want, you will never get it.

        And Glazyev can only wish to urgently bring his "popularizer-interpreter" to VO :))
    5. Kuzmitsky
      7 May 2020 20: 41 New
      +2
      Great idea! I'll take it on a pencil. I think it’s worth offering management.
  • Shadow
    Shadow 7 May 2020 16: 16 New
    +4
    The Civil War is a matter that they always and everywhere try to forget as soon as possible and, whenever possible, never raise this topic. It's like cleaning the restroom - you have to do it, but there’s absolutely nothing to boast about.
    1. Walrus fang
      Walrus fang 7 May 2020 20: 51 New
      +5
      Quote: Shadow
      The Civil War is a matter that they always and everywhere try to forget as soon as possible and, whenever possible, never raise this topic.

      During Soviet Russia, the heroes of the Civil War were very popular! You don't need to go far for the films "Chapaev", The Avengers "..
      They were not in vain fighting and shed blood .. What a country became the USSR!
      Quote: Shadow
      It's like cleaning the restroom - you have to do it, but there’s absolutely nothing to boast about.

      Well, is it on liberal terms (like in the 90s)? .. Here we are on different trenches .. negative
      1. AU Ivanov.
        AU Ivanov. 8 May 2020 00: 05 New
        -8
        The Civil War, when a brother went to his brother, is the most disgraceful page in our history.
        1. Walrus fang
          Walrus fang 8 May 2020 12: 34 New
          +4
          Quote: AU Ivanov.
          The Civil War, when a brother went to his brother, is the most disgraceful page in our history.

          Well, not the most disgraceful, but for a just cause, for the idea of ​​the social state of working people ..
          They dispersed all the bloodsuckers of the bourgeoisie and others .. And what country of the USSR the World Power was built with a high-tech social system!
          And you came the grandchildren and great-grandchildren of the White Guards and Vlasovites, and what did you do for the country? While marauding what remains of the USSR, you still can’t squander anything .. And just whine!
          1. fif21
            fif21 9 May 2020 14: 29 New
            +2
            Quote: Walrus Fang
            And what country of the USSR was built by a high-tech world power with a social system!

            But stealing officials (party nomenclature) in this country was dangerous! Therefore, they decided that they should not be called a comrade, but a master! Here they are with the ease of women with low social responsibility, and fell under the decaying mattress world order. And the people for those and others, as was a workhorse, remained. hi
        2. fif21
          fif21 9 May 2020 14: 36 New
          +1
          Quote: AS Ivanov.
          Civil war, when brother went to brother - this is the most disgraceful page in our history

          You can not call the brothers a worker and a bourgeois, a peasant and a landowner. Wrong! And with mobilized what demand? One was caught by white and placed under a gun, the other was red. hi hi hi
          1. Walrus fang
            Walrus fang 9 May 2020 16: 03 New
            0
            Quote: fif21
            Quote: AS Ivanov.
            Civil war, when brother went to brother - this is the most disgraceful page in our history

            You can not call the brothers a worker and a bourgeois, a peasant and a landowner. Wrong! And with mobilized what demand? One was caught by white and placed under a gun, the other was red. hi hi hi

            It's a pity that not everyone was killed ... hi
  • faterdom
    faterdom 7 May 2020 16: 22 New
    +2
    In principle, the article is a good answer to those who blame those who served in 1991: "Why didn't you prevent / jumped out / hit / hang? (Underline the necessary)"
    They, of course, know better from the "bright future", but I think - thank God that the army did not hit anyone then (we will not count the three holy fools who fell from the tank). At least someone deserved to hang, but it would definitely not have been better, but worse - quite easily. And no one took responsibility for any actions, no one gave legitimate orders either.
    So it was not Yeltsin who "won", and Yazov did not take upon himself the sin ... Yes, it is not enough to defend Gorbachev's wishes, and he himself did not want to - not the slightest sign of adequacy or even a thirst for power. Yanaev as an alternative - well, hello ...
    So, there were no violent leaders, and the same Yeltsin was cowardly until his wet pants, but Korzhakov convinced him that it was safe for him to speak, and no one was going to kill or arrest him ... Comfortable conditions for the "leader of the revolution."
    It’s just that a lot of everyone was swimming in this hole, and Yeltsin surfaced. But that millions for this were not killed right at the same time - it is still progress, and it’s good, definitely!
  • Shadow041
    Shadow041 7 May 2020 16: 36 New
    12
    You can consider anything, your right, but the facts are stubborn and what caused the civil war in 1917, we often see today on the streets of our cities! Some have small potatoes, others have diamonds and the gap between rich and poor is only widening! A number of businessmen behave the same as in tsarist times, selling for a penny the interests of the country and the people! Today, these irreconcilable contradictions are aggravated by a conflict on national grounds, which is only growing due to the Kremlin’s favorable attitude towards the entry into the Russian Federation of citizens of Russophobia who separated from Russia, the countries of the former USSR, many of whom previously participated in unpunished pogroms of the Russian population on ethnic grounds, in their post-Soviet states! Arriving in Russia, they behave defiantly, often gang up ethnic gangs, which naturally infuriates the indigenous population of Russia and this negative addressing people not only towards migrant patients with Russophobia, but also towards the government that gave permission for their entry into Russia! The situation with the coronovirus only added gas to this fire, as many worked without registration, because they could not find other work and today they are sitting penniless, others were sent to quarantine, but they pay not the salary, but the minimum wage! The government’s refusal to quarantine those who came to Russia from abroad led to an outbreak of infection in the Russian Federation, since all these tourists, with the connivance of the Russian government, did not comply with home quarantine! Talks of the government about the removal of quarantine in the Russian Federation today sound generally wild, as more than 10000 people a day get sick every day, and quarantine was introduced at much lower numbers !!!
  • Flinkfan
    Flinkfan 7 May 2020 16: 39 New
    +3
    ... To keep the country from revolution and civil war is a task for all time.
    Our liberals, in their own way, foaming the themes of freedom, repression, play dangerously with fire. According to the results of their 1991 revolution, today everyone can judge this personally.

    Any “revolution” is not the kingdom of law and order. Joseph de Mestre, using the example of the French Revolution of 1789, precisely noted: “it is pointless to fight the abuses of power with the help of the revolution, because the revolution itself generates incomparably greater abuses.”
    The revolution throws up not the best human material. Moreover, this material also mutates over time, it is modified genetically (or it is consciously ... genetically modified).

    After the revolutionary coup of 1917, all of the twentieth anniversary of the country was the Civil War - where it is hot, aggressive, where sluggish, bucolic. The Civil War is the immediate product and continuation of the revolution. In school books it is written that the Civil War ended in 1921. So even in the song it was sung: "And in the Pacific Ocean they finished their campaign."
    In fact - not finished.

    It is impossible to take a stroke of a pen under a registered decree ... and end the civil war!

    That civil battle lasted until the Great Patriotic War. It is known that already during the Patriotic years many continued to see the Germans as liberators from the Bolsheviks. Only when he saw clearly why Hitler came to our land, did the people finally rally against a common enemy.

    It is regrettable that in Russia it’s still not kosher to erect memorials in memory of the victims of all revolutions and civil wars, ANNOUNCING the names of the INITIATORS who brought the people to a bloody massacre, both on one side and the other.

    "Until the last soldier is buried ...." in our time received a new sound: "Until the true initiators, customers, gesheftmakers and beneficiaries are identified ...". - the war is not over.

    A politically expedient historical half-truth, in the end, always comes sideways. Poland, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, and even that Ukraine, are worthy examples.

    By the way, I propose a Ukrainian compromise - to appoint Kiev as the capital of Israel.
    First: God's chosen ones at all key posts
    Secondly: he is not sorry ...

    PS Anticipating the righteous anger of individual super-talented fellow citizens:
    "One Jewish friend asked me how I feel about Jews.
    He answered him that exactly as they relate to the Russians.
    He called me an anti-Semite .... "

    PPS Do not know why?
    1. A.TOR
      A.TOR 7 May 2020 19: 08 New
      -4
      designate the capital of Israel Kiev

      Well you yes ... in general ...
      Will you fight with Tsakhal around Donbass?
      Something tells me that the results of the "battles" will be a tracing of the "6 - day" war

      And you can't wave a nuclear bomb - there is also the "other side" ...
    2. NordUral
      NordUral 7 May 2020 21: 23 New
      +4
      It is regrettable that in Russia it’s still not kosher to erect memorials in memory of the victims of all revolutions and civil wars, ANNOUNCING the names of the INITIATORS who brought the people to a bloody massacre, both on one side and the other.

      It was not the Bolsheviks who led the country to the massacre;
      1. Flinkfan
        Flinkfan 9 May 2020 11: 30 New
        0
        How nice it is with the "white terror against the red terror" (and vice versa "for the sake of the gesheft of the" tsakhali nuclear bomb vendors ":-)))

        I repeat for those who soon, perhaps, will find a place in kindergarten, where they will be taught to think and reason a little: "Until the true initiators, customers, gesheftmakers and beneficiaries are identified and named, war in civil society (civil war) not over "
        1. NordUral
          NordUral 9 May 2020 12: 19 New
          +1
          Apparently drank a little. Happy Holidays, Flinkfan!
    3. IS-80_RVGK2
      IS-80_RVGK2 8 May 2020 00: 27 New
      -2
      You have reasoning at the kindergarten level.
  • NordUral
    NordUral 7 May 2020 16: 47 New
    +7
    Today, someone advocates a white idea, someone red. And this is strange, because both of them have already outlived their own. This is some kind of chronic disease.

    No, the author, the red idea, dimmed by 91, is reborn again. The white idea has shown itself in all its "glory" over the years. It would have been the same if White had won in the Civil.
    1. Shadow
      Shadow 7 May 2020 19: 49 New
      +4
      Rainbow-gray "idea" came: iPhone in hand and sirloin warm. And she is much more terrible than the Cheka, and the SS, and Chikatilo combined and squared - her followers will eat us alive, smiling and having fun.
      1. NordUral
        NordUral 7 May 2020 21: 19 New
        +4
        I agree, Dmitry. But can wake up? Otherwise, it’s completely sad.
        1. Shadow
          Shadow 7 May 2020 21: 59 New
          +5
          I don't see any special prerequisites for this. Elites feel more than ever at ease in the absence of restrictions, primarily moral; society is thoroughly imbued with the spirit of consumerism and all-embracing squabbles, and especially its avant-garde and guide in the postmodern era - pseudo-elite groups: the very "universal stars of Instagram" of various calibers and similar elements; With the information space, everything is clear anyway: if you say something unpopular or, God forbid, going beyond the "eat-and-shit" framework, you will immediately be declared an enraged cannibal. We have in front of us not just fashion, but the most powerful, ruthless and base dictatorship, the dictatorship of world rot.
    2. Walrus fang
      Walrus fang 7 May 2020 21: 01 New
      +6
      Quote: NordUral
      No, the author, the red idea, dimmed by 91, is reborn again. The white idea has shown itself in all its "glory" over the years. It would have been the same if White had won in the Civil.

      Well, if these White Guards drowned the people in the blood .. There wouldn’t be anything good .. Just entered the Entente! If Kolchak’s scarecrows were scared, they handed over and part of the gold was dragged away .. Here she is the power that hung up and the password indiscriminately .. And it was not for nothing that they cut this bug-selling seed from Russia
      Now they are in power again and we endure for the time being ..
      1. NordUral
        NordUral 7 May 2020 21: 21 New
        +4
        Would not endure. And then at present a new Bonaparte has appeared in Moscow - the Moscow mayor of All Russia
    3. Cyril G ...
      Cyril G ... 8 May 2020 11: 13 New
      +1
      It would be much worse than in red reality. WWII would have come anyway. Maybe 10 years later than our reality
  • Yuri Mikhailovsky
    Yuri Mikhailovsky 7 May 2020 16: 48 New
    11
    Explain to the peasants that the land will again go to the master and send him, the peasant, to defend this desire of the master, and wish the workers in the trenches to continue the war until the last soldier. What is the author about?
    1. agond
      agond 7 May 2020 17: 25 New
      +3
      All disputes, conflicts, unrest, uprisings, terror and terrorism, revolutions have a common ground or reason, the reason for this is a violation of the balance of interests of the parties in the sense of parity in rights, freedoms, duties, in turn, the very reason for the violation of the balance of interests of the parties is a consequence of another reason for inequality forces of the parties to the conflict, that is, the first side considers the second unable to fight back and therefore ignores it, for the time being.
      1. Cyril G ...
        Cyril G ... 8 May 2020 13: 14 New
        +1
        It is true, and the stubborn current "best people" (all possible officials, owners of factories, palaces .............. (s.) And others) in their endless greed are pulling the country back to a social explosion and blood
  • cniza
    cniza 7 May 2020 17: 20 New
    +3
    When the USSR collapsed, either our people had the wisdom, or the stars just came together, but the sharp political contradictions, fortunately, did not cause armed clashes.


    Of course, they were, but not so large-scale, and still ongoing, the same Ukraine ...
  • boris epstein
    boris epstein 7 May 2020 17: 40 New
    +6
    China also had a civil war in the 30s and early 40s and Japanese intervention. And in the 70s there was a cultural revolution, hunweibins, jiaofani and Mao Jie Dong senile. And they also broke firewood from the heart, fought with sparrows, smelted cast iron at home ... I would definitely have been civilian for the reds — my father and mother divorced when I was 8 and my sister 3. With the tsar and the victory of the whites, I would definitely have nothing to shine, but in the Soviet Union I have secondary technical and higher education, served a fairly sophisticated telegraph apparatus, starting with mechanical eskim to electronic, secondary compaction equipment, arm of telegraph. And such as I-millions.
  • Fanur Galiev
    Fanur Galiev 7 May 2020 17: 55 New
    +7
    I am a little hurt by the rumor "the peasants did not receive the land as their property." Dear author, you may not be aware, but the peasants never demanded ownership of the land. On the contrary, the peasants have always opposed land ownership and socialization. From time immemorial, peasants have lived in communities and redistributed land after a certain period of time. With the establishment of Soviet power, the land of the landowners, clergy and other landowners was transferred to the peasants, who again distributed and redistributed it within the community. In other words, the communication was done. The only problem was that for a long time in the European part of the country there was simply not enough land with a growing population. That, in the conditions of backward processing technology, often led to hunger.
    1. agond
      agond 7 May 2020 18: 33 New
      0
      Quote: Fanur Galiev
      “The peasants didn’t get the land ownership” a little bit.

      The peasants knew the commandment of the Lord "do not sell the land, for it is not yours, it is mine," and people on earth are temporary users
  • Swetliy
    Swetliy 7 May 2020 18: 05 New
    -2
    Read the literary work ,, Ice Campaign ,, ... ,, Good ,, were both these and these. Civil War. There is no good to anyone.
  • A.TOR
    A.TOR 7 May 2020 19: 04 New
    0
    Good article. calls, IMHO, "to the right".
    The only remark is that the Chinese Communist Party at first pushed so much pressure in China that population losses are calculated, according to various estimates, ... well, very "strange numbers.
    The Bolsheviks in Russia, too, so to speak, did not immediately become "immediately."
    But many people suffered
  • GUSAR
    GUSAR 7 May 2020 20: 23 New
    -2
    A very correct article in my opinion
  • Comrade Michael
    Comrade Michael 7 May 2020 20: 59 New
    +3
    There is nothing more stupid than constant references to history. It must be studied and seen neutrally, but it is better to look into the future. My ancestors, both under the tsar and under the communists, were respected, and did not go crazy either according to the tsar or according to the gene secretaries. But thieves and deceivers were always not loved either in the tsarist or in the late Soviet execution, much less in the present. The creators of the public good have always been loved and respected in our family. Generally I do not understand passionately loving leaders and system (any). Any passion blinds, makes it uncritical, and therefore harmful (with the exception of certain points).
    1. tatra
      tatra 8 May 2020 13: 14 New
      +2
      So the fact that we have been discussing the Soviet period every day for the past 30 years, including the events of 100 years ago, is also the result of the capture of Russia by the "whites". They are not capable of GIVING anything and anyone good, useful to the country and the people, only to take away, instill anger, hatred of the history of our country, and cowardly whine that they have "nothing" to do with responsibility for what they did in the Soviet period, after their capture of Russia, and to account for their capture of Russia.
  • Gato
    Gato 7 May 2020 22: 43 New
    0
    The best way to reconcile the two sides is to find a third common enemy.
  • Zementbomber
    Zementbomber 8 May 2020 02: 11 New
    +5
    YOKLMN - well, there are key, benchmark words: "in the States," national reconciliation "between" federals "and" confederates "has not yet come to 100%! How can it come in the foreseeable future in Russia ?? In the XXII century - maybe And even then - not even at the beginning ...
  • Sasha_rulevoy
    Sasha_rulevoy 8 May 2020 07: 32 New
    -4
    she had to exert the lion's share of efforts to fight banditry. Moreover, often under this brand there was a suppression of peasant uprisings,


    Example: the White army recaptures a city from the Reds. The population is in the city. Hungry (wherever there were red, hunger reigned). Need to feed him urgently? Is this difficult to do? No, it's easy to do. Peasants are sitting in villages in the vicinity of the city. They have huge reserves of food hidden in the underground from the red food detachments. They are eager to exchange this food for manufacture (according to our nashenm - manufactured goods). We just need to allow them to take this food to the city and sell it in the markets. Allow without restriction any private trade, open shops, shops, markets and fairs. The problem of hunger was solved in less than one day. But we also need sources of income for the local population. So that they have something to buy this food. There are enterprises in the city: factories, factories, workshops, warehouses, power plant, sawmill, etc. Each of the enterprises has or had a legal private owner. It only remains to find this owner (or heir, if the owner is no longer alive), to restore his rights to this property, to provide all possible assistance for damages - something was stolen there. The owner is least interested in a simple business. Downtime is a loss of personal income for him. Without any prodding, he will turn out of his skin to start the work of the enterprise. When the population has money, there will be a demand for cultural and entertainment institutions: cinematography, theaters, restaurants, taverns, amusement parks, etc. to street couplets. Demand for press in all directions. The intelligentsia will find jobs. In general, life in the "white" cities did not differ much from 1916; to those people it seemed paradise. There was even more freedom and foreign goods. Let's watch communist films about the GW, where they show the white rear. They will certainly show people having fun in a restaurant, smart ladies riding in cabs and cars, street coupletists. And then an intellectual or a worker leaves the restaurant. Money in bulk, ate well, and a recruiter to him: join, citizen, voluntarily into the white army. He just felt a taste for life, and to him: go, they say, dust your boots on the roads. Is he really? In fact, his happiness was, of course, very ephemeral, but he did not know that. To those people, Soviet power seemed ephemeral. Everyone was amazed that the Bolsheviks had not yet collapsed by themselves.

    And now the example is the opposite, the same city is taken by the Reds: the factories are nationalized, i.e. closed and plundered. Only military enterprises and the railway are working. But they pay not in money, but in special rations. And they give armor from being drafted into the army. You can also go to the institution as a co-worker (bureaucrat), compose information. They also give special rations and armor. But this is only through pull or through membership in the party, and then it was also possible to join the party only through pull. The third option: the Cheka or the food detachment, it also requires pulling, some ideological and sadistic inclinations. (To get to these "warm" places, you must certainly bring a certificate from the house committee. From the military commissar that you are on the military register. And if you are a party member, then you will be registered with the party committee. At any time, you can guess from a warm place into the trenches , by decision of the party committee, for example, for the post of political worker, and then it is in your personal interests to show military courage, because the road to captivity is closed). Private trading is prohibited. There is a black market, but you have time to barter a lot there? A pair of boots is a loaf of bread, a jacket is another loaf, a cap is a couple of potatoes. Nobody needs rolls of Sovznak. Ilyich said directly about this: "A bread card, a bread monopoly, will be a powerful means of coercion. Stronger than the Convention with its guillotine. The guillotine only intimidated, broke down active resistance. This is not enough for us. We need to break passive, even more harmful and dangerous resistance." So you come running with broken passive resistance to the mobilization point, wagging your tail. Where are you going? All taps are closed. That is the whole secret, where did Ilyich get two million fresh bayonets in 1919.

    But what about the peasantry? He cannot be driven into the army by hunger. The peasantry in 1918-1919 remained neutral. Until the spring of 1920, the Bolsheviks prudently did not touch them, not counting some selective food surpluses, but they were more a necessary measure. The peasants established an autonomous power for themselves, formed self-defense units and thought, fools, that they would sit out forever. And why did Ilyich need millions of new bayonets in the army in the spring and summer of 1920? That he, those two million could not cope with a handful in the Crimea? To follow the victory over Poland to carry the proletarian revolution to Europe. For all of Europe, two million bayonets might not be enough. But it didn’t work out. The scope of the peasant uprisings was not foreseen by the Bolsheviks. The campaign to Europe had to be postponed. By the summer of 1921, the war (Second Civil) had reached such a degree of fierceness and scale that the Communists had to make concessions for the first time. Mobilization in the army was stopped, food surplus was canceled, private trade and small business were allowed, all participants in the uprisings were given amnesty.

    Then, of course, the peasantry was broken, but in other, more sophisticated ways.
    1. Cyril G ...
      Cyril G ... 8 May 2020 11: 16 New
      +4
      What a washed Mosk up to white !!!
      Nothing that the white food service was much more fun?
    2. hhhhhhh
      hhhhhhh 8 May 2020 15: 44 New
      +3
      funny you)))) The peasants went to the Red Army.
      How did Lenin say? "If not for Kolchak, the peasantry of Siberia would not follow the Bolsheviks" Kolchak destroyed the peasants in the villages.
  • hhhhhhh
    hhhhhhh 8 May 2020 15: 41 New
    +3
    What is reconciliation with the master? The master on a pitchfork.
  • hhhhhhh
    hhhhhhh 8 May 2020 15: 45 New
    +2
    Quote: Sasha_rulevoy
    Then, of course, the peasantry was broken, but in other, more sophisticated ways.

    You would still live in the village.
  • hhhhhhh
    hhhhhhh 8 May 2020 15: 51 New
    +2
    Stop talking nonsense about reconciliation.
    Who wanted reconciliation immediately from the White Army came to Red to the Bolsheviks
    The Red Army, led by the Bolsheviks, defeated Europe with Hitler.
    The White Army served Hitler.
    How can you reconcile with the enemies of Russia? It is impossible.
    The argument is over.
    1. lelik613
      lelik613 8 May 2020 19: 22 New
      +1
      A small note: A group of swindlers who rose up after the February coup after the February putsch would not have been a civil war. In this struggle, the army of the RSFSR smashed to smithereens this whole circus from Kornilov to Kolchak and Wrangel. "White" "idea ?!" ended. Now there can be no "white" physically, and those who declare themselves to be them are impostors and swindlers!
      1. hhhhhhh
        hhhhhhh 8 May 2020 19: 28 New
        +1
        Until 1918 there was a triumphal procession of Soviet power.
  • victor50
    victor50 8 May 2020 20: 54 New
    -1
    Excellent article.
  • Sasha_rulevoy
    Sasha_rulevoy 8 May 2020 21: 48 New
    -1
    Quote: hhhhhhh
    You would still live in the village.


    If it were not for the scale of the uprisings of 1921, and the Leninist course would not have changed, then to this day, in 2020, the bread was forcibly taken from the peasants in the surplus appropriations, brought to the city by carts, and then you would get it by the bread card. Say thanks to Antonov.
    1. lelik613
      lelik613 9 May 2020 05: 29 New
      +1
      Lenin was smart enough to understand that changes in the economy were necessary and they were made. And now let's look at the last 35 years ... The 3rd generation of hereditary crooks rebuilding, accelerating, optimizing our pockets has already grown. And of course there is no alternative to this course (not 37 years old!). But Lenin laid the bomb!
      And the men didn’t know. And the rights of Shuvalov’s dogs to the constitution are mandatory ...
  • AKS-U
    AKS-U 9 May 2020 02: 32 New
    +1
    “If we talk about the Russian national idea, then we certainly need it. But such an idea, in my opinion, should not be“ red ”or“ white. ”It should unite the people of Russia and make the country stronger, and not to divide its population. "
    7 May 2020
    "The Russian banker was arrested in connection with the withdrawal of 500 billion rubles from the country." https://lenta.ru/news/2020/05/07/nomoney
    Both articles were written on the same day. 07.05.2020/XNUMX/XNUMX And now the question is what national idea we are talking about. About "red", about "white", about "banking", about "national". What national idea can the State have if the entire "System of Government" has dual and triple citizenship?
    And it’s funny and sad.
  • Sasha_rulevoy
    Sasha_rulevoy 9 May 2020 06: 59 New
    -2
    Quote: lelik613
    Now let's look at the last 35 years ..


    If a modern average Russian gets into a time machine, flies to 1980 and talks about his lifestyle to the then-Russian: a separate apartment (some, but his own), his own car, a couple of televisions with satellite television, a personal phone, and finally an electric coffee maker, a washing machine, a food processor, etc., he visited Italy, France, bathed in Turkey or Thailand, and can have any sausage and jeans; then the Russian in 1980 will decide that in front of him is someone at the level of secretary of the regional committee, no less.

    Illusions aside: Yeltsin and Putin are probably the worst choices of the Russian people of all. Their families, lured oligarchs, "new Russians", bureaucrats, "deputies", secular "elite" - almost all of them are the most vile of scoundrels, traitors, usurpers, destroyers, corrupted by power and luxury, etc. and so on, and it is difficult to argue with that. But here's the paradox: with the worst version of capitalism, with the collapse of the state, with scoundrels in power, ordinary people still live a hundred times better than under the communists. And if there had been decent power, the people would have lived much better.
    1. strannik1985
      strannik1985 9 May 2020 07: 14 New
      +1
      But here’s the paradox: with the worst version of capitalism, with the collapse of the state, with bastards in power

      And it depends on how you tell it - the average resident of Chechnya, Karabakh, Transnistria, Tajikistan and other national republics, anyone living in the 90s about capitalism will tell a lot of interesting things.
  • Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 9 May 2020 07: 19 New
    +1
    Quote: Leshy1975
    Quote: Kapellan23
    The Russian Empire was a unitary state. Separate Ukraine and Belarus never existed in Russia - they were created by socialists, giving them the right to exit and making countries the founders of the UN without the RSFSR.



    The socialists were the first to recognize the independence of Finland, although they did not even think about this before the October Revolution.
    Yakutia, the size of Western Europe, built around a micro-ethnic group that even now does not reach 500 people, and at the time of the formation of the republic it was generally a miserable handful.
    More than half of today's Central Asia was developed and settled by Russians, these were Russian provinces. A particularly striking example is Kazakhstan, which almost entirely exists on the Russian South Siberian lands, in the "Kazakh steppes" of which the Kazakhs almost did not live, but Russians lived (the capital of Kazakhstan Astana is the old Russian city of Akmolinsk with 100% Russian population, now there are about 15% of Russians and continues to shrink).
    Before the revolution:

    The result of Soviet national policy:

    https://zhenziyou.livejournal.com/tag/украинизация
    https://zhenziyou.livejournal.com/tag/белоруссизация

    Listen to this. When the socialists recognized Finland, there was no real opportunity to keep it in the Republic of Ingushetia. Finland was actually lost much earlier. Source VO: So, during the revolution of 1905-1907. empire’s law enforcement agencies could not operate in Finland. The security department had to operate in Finland with the help of secret agents - as in a foreign country. It was impossible to conduct a "counter-terrorist operation" with the help of gendarmes and Cossacks.
    Like Poland, it was already actually lost. And when the Bolsheviks came to power, it was ridiculous to talk about a single country in general. By this time, control and unity of territories from a common state center was already lost. And only as a result of the civil war won by the Bolsheviks, was it possible to bring together the rest.

    PS Grand Duke Alexander Mikhailovich Romanov, grandson of Nicholas I: “the guard of Russian national interests was none other than the internationalist Lenin, who in his constant speeches did not spare his strength to protest against the partition of the former Russian Empire».

    VV Shulgin, one of the ideologists of the White Movement, in 1921: the Bolsheviks "restore the military power of Russia ... restore the borders of the Russian state to its natural limits". He clarified: “Of course, they think that they have created a socialist army that is fighting“ in the name of the International, ”but this is nonsense. They only think so. In fact, they restored the Russian army ... As crazy as it may seem, but it is so ... The banner of United Russia was actually raised by the Bolsheviks... Of course, Lenin and Trotsky continue to blow the International ... In fact, their army beat the Poles like Poles. And it was precisely because they seized purely Russian regions»

    PPS What other arguments do you need, even if the representatives of the Romanovs and ideologists of the White movement understood that the Bolsheviks saved and restored Russia as a single state.

    Great comment.
    A selection of documents and maps +++++++++
  • Comrade Michael
    Comrade Michael 9 May 2020 10: 03 New
    +2
    I will say one thing, until 1917, in our Temnikovsky district of the Tambov province they supported the uprising of Stepan Razin, for which the good tsarist government organized repressions with flogging to death, burning them alive (in huts, in a steel furnace), cutting down sabers. And then ours supported Pugachev, although he did not reach our places, the punitive imperial units acted brutally. And between these uprisings our periodically killed the bar and the managers and burned the estates for violence and abuse against the peasants ..... So no one spared especially the priests and the king, the Reds in our area did not commit atrocities, even during the period of repression. Our regions have always been for the Reds and now too (although now we have the Ryazan region). Support for the Reds is a long-term trend in our poor lands.
  • fif21
    fif21 9 May 2020 14: 00 New
    0
    Power to the Soviets! Factory workers! Land for the peasants! And power flew out from under the feet of the landowners and capitalists, like a stool from under a gallows. The soldiers of the "white movement" were easily propagandized, there were no fools to die for other people's interests. The Bolsheviks temporarily entered into alliances with all who were loyal to them (anarchists, Socialist-Revolutionaries, bandits ...) The backbone of the "white movement" consisted of officers loyal to the ideas of the monarchy, natives of the nobility, landowners, officials, landowners ... Hence the officer regiments (privates there were not enough soldiers, and the mobilized peasants and workers fled). There was no unified command of all anti-Bolshevik forces. Kolchak, Yudenich, Petliura, Wrangel, Czechs, Japanese, British .. The victorious "Reds" soon forgot their promises, and power passed to the party nomenclature. What happened in the 90s is natural, people are tired of waiting for a bright future. And what they got in return (gangster privatization, impoverishment, a wild market and harsh exploitation) also does not please everyone. The class struggle is intensifying. The mood of protest is growing. Unfortunately, the gap between the poor and the rich in Russia is growing, and therefore any scenario is possible, including the most pessimistic one. hi
  • fif21
    fif21 9 May 2020 14: 16 New
    +1
    Quote: AKS-U
    And now the question is what kind of national idea are we talking about?

    The national idea to create a state of workers and peasants failed. Now in Russia there is one idea uniting all - personal enrichment, there are no other unifying ideas and will not be. hi
  • Leo_59
    Leo_59 10 May 2020 15: 27 New
    +1
    :) AHA. Well, that was followed by a lightning fast-yet another and unequivocally exhaustive answer ^ to the author's brief question :))

    "Patriotism should be to devote oneself to the development of the country and its movement forward," said President Vladimir Putin, he said in an interview with the program "Moscow. Kremlin. Putin", a fragment of which was published on his Instagram by journalist Pavel Zarubin.
    Answering a journalist's question about what the Russian national idea is, he said: "In patriotism." “I think that nothing else can be,” Putin said.
    At the same time, the president noted that patriotism cannot be "leavened, musty and sour." He urged not to "grasp only at our heroic past", but also to look into "an equally heroic and successful future." “This is the key to success,” Putin is convinced.

    More:
    https://www.rbc.ru/politics/10/05/2020/5eb7ac579a7947e750a4bc6f

    "Putin has repeatedly spoken about the important role of patriotism for the country. Thus, the president called it the only possible unifying idea for Russia, the 'sacred duty of Russians' and 'moral guideline' for adolescents."

    More:
    https://www.rbc.ru/politics/03/02/2016/56b1f8a79a7947060162a5a7

    Extras .:
    ".. In 2004, at a meeting with his proxies, Putin said that the national idea of ​​Russia is competitiveness. A person must be competitive, a city, a village, an industry and the whole country. This is our main national idea today," Putin said.

    In 2011, in an interview with VIP-Premier magazine, Putin called “saving the people” a national idea, citing Alexander Solzhenitsyn.

    In the summer of 2014, Patriarch Kirill made his attempt to define the national idea. The head of the Russian Orthodox Church declared that "the ideal, the national idea" of Russia is holiness. "

    ??? !!! P.S .:

    And here I am of a different opinion :) (they didn’t ask me :):
    A national idea can only be fully conscious of the population and the chosen economic-socio-political system (i.e., their way of life desired by people in the country).
    (For details - see in the minds of citizens :))
    1. Selevc
      Selevc 10 May 2020 23: 05 New
      +1
      I want to note one point about the Civil - as if the Reds were not scolded, but still they carried the ideas that were cutting-edge for that time ... Understood by everyone from an uneducated peasant to an intellectual ... How then the Reds brought these ideas to life is another matter .. But precisely at the time of the Civil War, more progressive forces defeated it ...
      Leo Tolstoy writes that in 1902 (in peacetime), exhibitions of selling paintings for foreigners were organized in secular salons, and profit went to starving peasants !!! )) This is hunger in the granary of Europe !!! This is a famine in a country in which Faberge made flowers and eggs from diamonds for the royal family ... In which high society spoke French, lived for decades abroad, had millions of gold rubles, palaces, personal trains, indulged in morphine and visited houses of tolerance !! !
      Such a country was doomed - unprecedented luxury and unheard of poverty !!! This is Nikolaev Russia !!!
  • itis
    itis 11 May 2020 22: 02 New
    +1
    The stars converged and then dispersed .... Stars, such stars
  • Growlers
    Growlers 13 May 2020 08: 10 New
    +1
    What is there to argue about? The Whites fought for the enslavement of Russia by the British first of all, and therefore they kicked them out of the country. And those who pour tears on them, or idiots or scoundrels.
    On November 15 (28), 1917, the Supreme Council of the Entente made an official decision to intervene in Russia. Already on December 10 (23), 1917, the leaders of the European core of the Entente - England and France - signed a convention on the division of Russia into spheres of influence .. They were not going to restore any monarchy. And they certainly did not intend to make Russia an equivalent "partner". They were going to turn Russia into a colony. It was obvious (it is still obvious).
    “... It would be a mistake to think that throughout this year we fought on the fronts for the cause of the Russians hostile to the Bolsheviks. On the contrary, the Russian White Guards fought for our cause. This truth will become unpleasantly sensitive from the moment the white armies are destroyed, and the Bolsheviks establish their rule throughout the vast Russian empire. ” Churchill V. World Crisis. Chapter 12
    The Grand Duke Alexander Mikhailovich Romanov, the Russian admiral (his wife was the sister of Nicholas II) in the book of memoirs, writes in the epilogue of his book (he died in 1933 in Paris) - as a kind of testament:
    "- Apparently, the" allies "are going to turn Russia into a British colony, Trotsky wrote in one of his proclamations to the Red Army. And was he not right this time? Inspired by Sir Heinrich Deterding (British" oil king ".), or simply following the old Disraeli-Beaconsfield program (Britain's most influential statesman in the 1840s and 1870s), the British Foreign Office displayed a daring intent to deal the death blow to Russia ... The arbiters of European destinies seemed to admire their own ingenuity They hoped to kill with one blow both the Bolsheviks and the possibility of the revival of a strong Russia. ”The position of the leaders of the White movement became impossible. On the one hand, pretending that they did not notice the intrigues of the Allies, they called ... for a holy struggle against the Soviets, on the other hand, the guard of Russian national interests was none other than the internationalist Lenin, who in his constant speeches did not spare forces to protest the partition of the former Russian Empire... ".
  • boni592807
    boni592807 13 May 2020 18: 41 New
    0
    Already much has been said.
    I repeat, without appropriating the words of Delyagin: "The reconciliation of the Reds and Whites took place in 1941. The bulk of the White emigration was on the side of the people of Russia (USSR), although they might not understand him ..."
    I always dreamed that they would find the basis for understanding and uniting the efforts of the Turbins and Korchagins, because for them the main thing was still the HOMELAND - RUSSIA, and not their own ambitions.
    Since the Civil War, former beneficiaries have been playing the ETU card, as now. By discussion, this is visible. To the detriment of Russia and to the benefit of MYSELF.
    It's time to draw conclusions, taking useful, and it was from the Reds (USSR) and Whites (RI), taking into account the mistakes, to put things in order at home. Russia will win, we will all win. Partners will not wait and will not make more "mistakes".
    Let's go through, this is the "NEEDLE eye", and there is better brainstorming (who knows), for the benefit of children and grandchildren. Than lava on lava with a checker and each other at "0". Helping pertners to clean up their own territory.
    Or how?!
  • Vladimir Mashkov
    Vladimir Mashkov 25 May 2020 20: 24 New
    +1
    Perhaps I am mistaken, but it seems to me that most of today's Russian patriots would be FOR the “red” and would be with the “red”, and today's liberals and Western worshipers would be FOR “white” and would be with the “white”. Previously, the "whites" were for the "father" tsar, and now they are for the West and the State Department, although they say that this is for the sake of Russia.