Military Review

Named the reason why Rafale fighters will not have new chances in the Indian market

70

The Chinese media published material on the postponement of the delivery of French Rafale fighters. The author recalls that New Delhi signed a contract with France for the supply of 36 fighters, the first four of which were to arrive in India by the end of April this year.


The publication Sohu expressed bewilderment about how it was possible to conclude such a contract, which involves the purchase of aircraft at a price of about 218 million euros per unit. Yes, this amount includes training for Indian pilots, arms supplies, maintenance, but in any case it is very expensive.

From the material:

In India, they are now disappointed with the French “miracle fighter,” its price. All this grew into a big scandal. Indeed, it’s difficult for the Narendra Modi government to explain how the 36 Dassault Rafale could be acquired at a cost of 218 million euros per unit. This is more than twice the price at which the Americans sell the F-35 to their allies.

Earlier, Military Review reported that India, after signing the contract, suddenly turned to France with a request to reduce the cost of purchased aircraft.

At the same time, India still has not decided which planes to purchase (minus 36 Rafales) for updating its air forces with 114 latest fighters. When new demands were made in New Delhi, the Swedish aircraft manufacturer Saab Jas 35 Gripen left the tender in which the Russian Su-35 and MiG-39 participated. The Swedes then said that they could not remain in the tender with the changed requirements against the background of the unchanged financing of the future contract. However, after some time, the Swedish company returned to the tender. At the same time, there is no official data on what caused the return.

Meanwhile, in India, an already signed contract with the French is really being actively discussed. The main complaints are against the government of the country, which agreed to the purchase of “Rafales”, now called “gold” because of their incredibly high prices for the Indian budget. However, no one has been able to prove the fact of the corruption component in the deal. At the same time, it is believed that Rafale will no longer have new chances in the Indian market (except 36 contracted), if France does not reduce the price, and significantly. The main reason is the very price that is currently very high.

Against this background, Indian analysts believe that the chances of acquiring Russian MiG-35 fighters are high. It is stated that they will cost less than $ 50 million per unit.
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  1. Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 5 May 2020 08: 55 New
    +2
    218 million $$$ is a record for a fighter? Or is a raptor more expensive?
    1. Avior
      Avior 5 May 2020 08: 59 New
      +3
      This is the price of the contract, not the plane
      The plane itself is cheaper, although Rafael is not a very cheap plane
      1. Zaurbek
        Zaurbek 5 May 2020 09: 02 New
        +6
        This is understandable ..... Su35S with all the houses for China cost $ 100 million about. Grippen NG exceeded 100 million. But the Hindus do not understand, they are fighting for every cent, then 218 +++ generation are buying at $ 4 million.
        1. figwam
          figwam 5 May 2020 09: 49 New
          +4
          The Mig-35 costs $ 40 million; 180 aircraft could be bought with Indian money.
          1. Zaurbek
            Zaurbek 5 May 2020 11: 20 New
            +4
            But there is Rafal, but no MiGa35S yet ....
            1. il-z
              il-z 5 May 2020 14: 35 New
              +3
              And like Rafal is, but in India it is not ....
              1. Zaurbek
                Zaurbek 5 May 2020 14: 50 New
                0
                But he is sold in other places and flies .....
                1. bayard
                  bayard 5 May 2020 19: 09 New
                  +3
                  The Commander-in-Chief of the Indian Air Force watched the MiG-35, and its pilots circled it during a targeted visit to Russia. And they liked the MiG-35. There will be no problems with retraining and maintenance - the MiG-29 has long been in service with India. And some elements of the avionics of foreign production at the option of India can be integrated into it without any problems, for example with the Su-30 for their air force.
          2. Blondy
            Blondy 6 May 2020 17: 08 New
            +1
            Quote: figvam
            The Mig-35 costs $ 40 million; 180 aircraft could be bought with Indian money.

            Having screwed up it's hard to count on anything. The Ministry of Defense does not want it either - only "colossal export potential" remains.
      2. sabakina
        sabakina 5 May 2020 09: 42 New
        -10
        Quote: Avior
        This is the price of the contract, not the plane
        The plane itself is cheaper, although Rafael is not a very cheap plane

        You want to say 218 million is for 36 Rafale? 6 million apiece? And subtract training / weapons = 2-3 million?
        1. Avior
          Avior 5 May 2020 09: 50 New
          +2
          Of course not
          There is no piece contract for each side
          218 million is if the contract value is divided by 36.
          In the contract there is something that relates to one side, and there are general expenses immediately for all-type, organization of services.
          218 is the average cost of a contract in terms of 1 side
          1. sabakina
            sabakina 5 May 2020 09: 55 New
            +1
            Sergey, you contradict yourself. On the one hand you write
            218 million is the contract value divided by 36.

            With another
            218 is the average cost of a contract in terms of 1 side

            Do you need to divide the tech by these 218 million or multiply?
            1. Avior
              Avior 5 May 2020 10: 02 New
              +5
              If you take the entire value of the contract and divide by 36, it will turn out 218 million.
              Sorry if I wrote vaguely.
              The total contract value is $ 7,86 billion
              https://topwar.ru/161679-nazvana-ogromnaja-stoimost-istrebitelej-rafale-dlja-vvs-indii.html
              hi
              1. sabakina
                sabakina 5 May 2020 10: 03 New
                +2
                Well, thank God, we figured it out, otherwise I already wanted to go for a glass. wink
                1. Avior
                  Avior 5 May 2020 10: 18 New
                  +1
                  Well, thank God, sorted it out

                  and this is not a sin and note smile
      3. alleksSalut4507
        alleksSalut4507 6 May 2020 08: 47 New
        0
        Avior, the price of a contract for bare Rafal, for iron without weapons and without maintenance?
    2. venik
      venik 5 May 2020 09: 10 New
      +3
      Quote: Zaurbek
      218 million $$$ is a record for a fighter? Or is a raptor more expensive?

      =========
      The prime cost of the Raptor is $ 146,2 million (for 2008), and the full price including all indirect costs is approx. $ 350-379,5 million
      A dear-headed bird turned out (even by American standards), especially since this is not a strategic bomber or reconnaissance aircraft of the B-2 or SR-71 type, but a kind of "front-line" apparatus for conquering superiority ...
      1. Zaurbek
        Zaurbek 5 May 2020 09: 15 New
        +1
        I note that $ 1990th year .....
        1. venik
          venik 5 May 2020 09: 20 New
          +3
          Quote: Zaurbek
          I note that $ 1990th year .....

          =========
          It is in prices 2008 of the year! ...According to the United States General Audit Office (GAO), at the end of 2010, the full price of one F-22 aircraft (taking into account the cost of the development program) reached [b] 411,7 million dollars....
          It's funny that the cost of gold in 2006 was approx. $ 17.77 million / ton. Those. the cost of 19,7 tons of pure gold (the weight of an empty F-22A) during this period was the same $ 350 million. So "Raptor is not called an airplane" worth its weight in gold!
          PS I immediately remembered the bearded anecdote "from the life of the new Russians" about the Panasonic TV set made of a pure piece of gold, which is not watched - which SHOWS !!! laughing
    3. missuris
      missuris 5 May 2020 21: 01 New
      0
      for such a small record, the Raptor is certainly more expensive but the Raptor and the engines are exactly 2 times more powerful and more. like the plane itself)
    4. TermNachTer
      TermNachTer 6 May 2020 20: 18 New
      0
      The raptor seems to be 250 lem each, though in dollars, if converted into euros, it will be nearby, but still a bit cheaper. However, this is a fifth generation car. And even the mattress mattresses considered it expensive, and it is ridiculous to compare the economies of the USA and India.
  2. gabonskijfront
    gabonskijfront 5 May 2020 08: 58 New
    +9
    Hindus are well done, in the grace with which they endure the brain of potential sellers they have no equal.
    1. knn54
      knn54 5 May 2020 09: 15 New
      +5
      You have not encountered the Iranians yet.
    2. Mountain shooter
      Mountain shooter 5 May 2020 09: 16 New
      +1
      Quote: gabonskijfront
      Hindus are well done, in the grace with which they endure the brain of potential sellers they have no equal.

      What does the brain have to do with it? The size of the "rollback" is unimaginable, Rosoboronexport does not give so much laughing
      1. Kurare
        Kurare 5 May 2020 12: 23 New
        +2
        Quote: Mountain Shooter
        The size of the rollback is unimaginable

        Whoever has worked at least a little in the Indian market knows that the corruption component is simply off scale. The owner of one plant directly told me: "They will demand a rollback from you, do not give, but come to me directly. I know even who will demand, but I cannot dismiss him, since I cannot find such specialists."

        The French welded on the first project about 2,5 times the market value. So, they will stay where they are, and the Rafale will go down in history as the most expensive car of the 4th generation. Black money will never be found here, since the strings stretch to the saaaam top. You can't just hide this size of "bakshish".
    3. Sky strike fighter
      Sky strike fighter 5 May 2020 09: 30 New
      +5
      Quote: gabonskijfront
      Hindus are well done, in the grace with which they endure the brain of potential sellers they have no equal.

      The purpose of this brain drain is to master the technologies and master them in India. This is proved by the story of Rafal, and with the joint development of a two-seat modification of the T-50, and with the Il-214. Indians put in their industry, but they need technologies that Nobody gives them. Neither we nor the French. They bet on Tejas 2 and the project of the 5th generation fighter AMCA. And they are trying, by hook or by crook, to bargain someone with us or with the French for technology.
  3. Sergey Medvedev
    Sergey Medvedev 5 May 2020 09: 01 New
    +3
    After signing the contract, India suddenly turned to France with a request to reduce the cost of purchased aircraft.

    The fact that the Indians are dancing does not surprise anyone. But now the Swedes pulled themselves towards them.
    However, after some time, the Swedish company returned to the tender.

    Popular wisdom says: "To live with wolves - to dance like a wolf!"
    1. Avior
      Avior 5 May 2020 09: 52 New
      0
      The Swedes are forced, the Indians are constantly changing requirements
  4. Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 5 May 2020 09: 12 New
    -1
    Normal "kickback" gypsies slobber !!! I wonder if they will receive it in bitcoins? And then dollars or euros are tracked ... and even in such volumes laughing
  5. Pvi1206
    Pvi1206 5 May 2020 09: 32 New
    0
    they wanted to deceive, but they deceived themselves ...
  6. Tuzik
    Tuzik 5 May 2020 09: 39 New
    0
    damn, for 30 years this tender for fighters for india, like Indian cinema, 30 episodes dance before the change of scenery
  7. Maas
    Maas 5 May 2020 09: 43 New
    +6
    Probably such a price was requested by the French in the realization that these aircraft would be studied and copies would then be made with Indian sauce? They decided to cut the dough for last. If not, correct it.
    Our stolen Chinese friends have always done this, bought a small batch of planes from Russia, impudently copied and then pressured Russia in its markets, selling goods of questionable quality.
    Here, many tear one place for China, they say, an ally is also for us. Do not be, no matter what he is not an ally and not even a friend. There is probably no worse nation in the world, they are like locusts. Read what they leave behind on leased lands in the same South America. Never loved them. Soryan, if he went too far like racism.
    1. Avior
      Avior 5 May 2020 09: 56 New
      0
      Rafal is an expensive airplane in itself (and also f-35 is called expensive smile )
      Plus, this is the first service, you need to train technicians and pilots, create a system of maintenance, and this equipment and more.
      The second batch may be slightly cheaper, but it seems, it will not be
    2. PilotS37
      PilotS37 5 May 2020 12: 48 New
      +2
      Quote: Maas
      Probably such a price was requested by the French in the realization that these aircraft would be studied and copies would then be made with Indian sauce?

      In fact, initially, as far as I remember, this tender involved the transfer of technology or even the organization of mass production in India, but then the French somehow so cleverly threw the Indians and they were left with 36 Raphael for fabulous money, but without officially transferred technologies and without mass production (therefore, apparently, instead of 114 and bought only 36 - the rest were to be produced in India ...).
      At the same time - unlike the Chinese - the Indians, it seems, are more sensitive to other people's intellectual property: they still do not have a CCP ...
    3. Hyperborean
      Hyperborean 6 May 2020 10: 13 New
      +1
      But have all other countries not done and are doing so? Didn't our tank, automotive, aviation industry do that in due time? We did not copy amer airplanes, amer cars, etc ....? So this is absolutely normal ..
      1. nedgen
        nedgen 7 May 2020 01: 39 New
        0
        Quote: Hyperborean
        But have all other countries not done and are doing so? Didn't our tank, automotive, aviation industry do that in due time? We did not copy amer airplanes, amer cars, etc ....? So this is absolutely normal ..

        Excuse me, Sergey, but in your opinion is it a simple matter to copy a plane? Do not be mistaken. The design itself is not difficult to copy, but the materials are a completely different matter. Here the materials are everything. Why do you think the Indians so strive to get to technology? Copying the design of a turbojet engine, though difficult, but not so much as to be able to repeat it, but MANUFACTURING the turbine blades is completely different, and if the plane is partially made not from dural but from titanium or composites, it is almost impossible without technology if you don’t have very advanced science in this field.
    4. kot28.ru
      kot28.ru 6 May 2020 15: 52 New
      0
      Maas (Ruslan) Yesterday, 09:43
      +6
      Probably such a price was requested by the French in the realization that these aircraft would be studied and copies would then be made with Indian sauce? They decided to cut the dough for last. If not, correct it.
      Our stolen Chinese friends have always done this, bought a small batch of planes from Russia, impudently copied and then pressured Russia in its markets, selling goods of questionable quality.
      Here, many tear one place for China, they say, an ally is also for us. Do not be, no matter what he is not an ally and not even a friend. There is probably no worse nation in the world, they are like locusts. Read what they leave behind on leased lands in the same South America. Never loved them. Soryan, if he went too far like racism.
      Maas (Ruslan) Yesterday, 09:37
      +3
      The rating of the party “Servant of the People” by Vladimir Zelensky fell to an anti-record
      This is not surprising. Party members and those close to them are constantly spotlighted in extremely ugly situations. Plus for the year of reign Zelensky not ONE corrupt official was planted.
      I still had hopes for him for the first six months, but then ....
      Although I did not vote for him.

      In general, I can say that the new team is not so radical in terms of further Ukrainization of the country, but the same pro-oligarchic and anti-people.
      And the Cossack is mishandled hi
  8. APASUS
    APASUS 5 May 2020 09: 53 New
    +1
    Everything would be fine, even at such a price for one plane of $ 218 million, if India got the technology. And until you hear that the French are transmitting something, there is a complete failure
    1. Ataka smertnikov
      Ataka smertnikov 5 May 2020 10: 46 New
      +2
      Quote: APASUS
      Everything would be fine, even at such a price for one plane of $ 218 million, if India got the technology. And until you hear that the French are transmitting something, there is a complete failure

      Let them turn to Israel .. They have extensive experience in theft of fighter technology, etc. in France hi
      1. APASUS
        APASUS 5 May 2020 10: 48 New
        0
        Quote: Ataka smertnikov
        Let them turn to Israel .. They have extensive experience in theft of fighter technology, etc. in France

        Turn to a Jew for technology? lol lol lol Israel does not give away anything for nothing, everything will cost money, and given the American influence ................... it is not yet known what they can get there?
      2. Pavel57
        Pavel57 6 May 2020 00: 30 New
        0
        I think the French know who and how handed over the Mirage documentation to Israel.
        1. Zaurbek
          Zaurbek 7 May 2020 08: 16 New
          0
          There were articles on this subject .... either stolen, or simulated the theft ..... but there is a culprit.
  9. +5
    +5 5 May 2020 09: 55 New
    +5
    Ohhh ... Indian tenders will not end even after signing the contracts! I love them!
  10. Doccor18
    Doccor18 5 May 2020 10: 23 New
    +1
    And what is the amount of the contract
    remained until this moment
    secret? Why bewilderment and surprise?
    Yes expensive, but it does not cost so much.
    This is the past generation. But in
    the contract amount includes both aircraft maintenance and pilot training as
    in France and in India.
    Of course you could buy
    in Russia. It would have gone where
    cheaper. But the Indians have their own
    political troubles.
    1. Oyo Sarkazmi
      Oyo Sarkazmi 5 May 2020 11: 05 New
      +1
      Quote: Doccor18
      Why bewilderment and surprise?

      Well, it seems that the tender was for 100 aircraft with localization. After winning the tender, the French refused to localize. And then it turned out that they couldn’t deliver more than 36, the cancellation of aircraft from the French Air Force was canceled. But the amount has remained the same!
      1. Avior
        Avior 5 May 2020 11: 16 New
        0
        on the contrary, this India refused to buy more
        Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar said on May 21, 2015, that India would neither build additional Dassault Rafale fighters under license, nor purchase more than 36 complete vehicles that the Indian side had recently agreed to purchase.

        In an interview with several Indian television stations on the occasion of the completion of the first year of his tenure, Parricar said that the money India would save by not acquiring the remaining 90 Rafale should be redirected to purchase more than 200 Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) national fighters Indian production.
  11. Maks1995
    Maks1995 5 May 2020 10: 30 New
    +1
    Is it how low they rate MIG that they were ready to buy Raphael 4 times more expensive?
  12. Ataka smertnikov
    Ataka smertnikov 5 May 2020 10: 43 New
    0
    In India, they are now disappointed with the French “miracle fighter,” its price.

    Shaw again? Well, the Indians are hit, not in vain the gypsies come from there ...)))
    As a result, they will buy from Russia, having knocked down the price in half ... laughing
  13. Fedorovich
    Fedorovich 5 May 2020 11: 22 New
    0
    Again dancing with elephants? ..
  14. orionvitt
    orionvitt 5 May 2020 11: 39 New
    0
    However, no one has been able to prove the fact of the corruption component in the deal.
    Of course. Ordinary fighter, at a prohibitive price. No corruption. laughing
  15. Incvizitor
    Incvizitor 5 May 2020 12: 53 New
    0
    In general, I think the Indians would have gone flu, but they are unlikely to be able to push it;
  16. Romanenko
    Romanenko 5 May 2020 13: 40 New
    0
    A logical ending, two sides - the niggardly agreed on a deal, each figuring out how and how much they would "shoe" the counterparty. The result is obvious, now around Rafal there is a scythe and a stone and a labyrinth and a screw, but it seems that it will not work.
  17. Junior Private
    Junior Private 5 May 2020 14: 01 New
    +1
    It may be not only the cost of the aircraft, but the cost of subsequent maintenance of all this aviation (and not only) vinaigrette. Flies to the rupee. And with the Indians it’s really hard to conduct business. They act like gypsies at a horse fair.
    1. Paul K.
      Paul K. 5 May 2020 22: 31 New
      0
      Well, Indians, they can’t be redone ... But on airplanes - here money calculators are secondary (if prices are comparable). There are military applications. Three or four countries can boast of them (I mean the whole chain from fundamental things - experience, base, history, personnel, academic foundations, etc. - to real offers on the market. (China is not near here it was)
  18. And Makarov
    And Makarov 5 May 2020 14: 03 New
    -1
    Again, the Chinese consider Tugriks in someone else’s pocket
  19. Old26
    Old26 5 May 2020 15: 53 New
    +2
    Quote: sabakina
    You want to say 218 million is for 36 Rafale? 6 million apiece? And subtract training / weapons = 2-3 million?

    Hardly. If you believe open sources, then the price of "Raphael" (per unit), depending on the configuration, from 85 to 125 million dollars per unit.
  20. Ratmir_Ryazan
    Ratmir_Ryazan 5 May 2020 18: 27 New
    +1
    I hope our MiG-35 wins, it will be beneficial both to India and naturally to us.
  21. ACCUSED
    ACCUSED 5 May 2020 21: 37 New
    +1
    In the case of the Indians, they rummage like a pig in oranges. They would eat a fish and x .. sit!
  22. kamikaze
    kamikaze 5 May 2020 22: 12 New
    +1
    greed stingy ruined. laughing laughing laughing
  23. Sarkazm
    Sarkazm 6 May 2020 03: 08 New
    +2
    Hindus have nowhere to go and have no choice. The backbone of their air force is a relatively small number of Su-30MKI, which are already in need of modernization. While the probable "friend" China is armed with the largest number of fighters of the Su-27 family - Su-35, and with more advanced avionics than we offered the Indians, plus fighters of the 5th generation of our own design. So there is nothing to oppose the Chinese Air Force to the Indians themselves, there is no industry and science capable of giving birth to a fighter capable of competing with Chinese developments, we are not able to offer anything newer than the Su-30 and Su-35, one of which is already in service with the Indians, only Rafale remains , Influenza from European (Eurofighter does not count) or American fighters. With Americans, love among Indians is only at the stage of publicity, from European ones it is easy, even if modern Grippen clearly does not suit the Indians, so on Rafal for the Indians the light came together like a wedge, the French understand this and will twist ropes from the Indians, but break off their race.
    1. Cyril G ...
      Cyril G ... 6 May 2020 12: 50 New
      0
      ok 260 Su-30MKI. Slightly less than half of all Indian Air Force tactical aircraft
    2. V.I.P.
      V.I.P. 7 May 2020 08: 24 New
      0
      F-16 updated as in Israel will suit the Indians quite ...
  24. Yran
    Yran 6 May 2020 03: 44 New
    0
    yes they bastards, Indians, could these grandmothers and through us to drive!
  25. Sarkazm
    Sarkazm 6 May 2020 23: 34 New
    0
    Quote: Cyril G ...
    ok 260 Su-30MKI. Slightly less than half of all Indian Air Force tactical aircraft
    50 we delivered assembled, plus 222 assembly kits in India, totaling only 272 units minus losses. Plus, the Indians initially announced plans to order 18 units, and later increased their plans to collect 40.
    Even with these 40, they do not reach the number of Su-27 - Su-35 in service with China, which is the largest operator of these fighters, in addition, China has several of its own very modern models of aircraft of the 4th and 5th generation.
    In the end, the Indians jump, and after playing enough with the French and Rafal, they will return to us for the Su-57, because they don’t have any options at all to get a 5th generation fighter, except for the American F-35, but there it’s a turn for years to come, as they say.
    Fighters of conditional generation 4 ++ and 5 are 95-130mln. dollars per car, plus more spare parts, weapons, training, simulators, etc., this is about 100 million. dollars. For Indians, the amount is unbearable, it is much easier to buy our Su-57 on the engines of the first stage, since there is continuity, etc., plus we still promised joint production, which means that, as in the case of the Su-30MKI before 50% of the cost of the car will be the share of Indian companies. In the latter case, the Indians have a chance to rearm their Air Force.
    The "Rafale" of the latest modifications is certainly stronger than our Su-30MKI, and it will probably be able to fight our Su-57, BUT ... but the Indians simply cannot afford it, ambitions are ambitions, and there is no money, then there is nothing to be done.
  26. Sarkazm
    Sarkazm 6 May 2020 23: 36 New
    0
    Quote: Yran
    yes they bastards, Indians, could these grandmothers and through us to drive!
    They won’t go anywhere. Our neighbors and former countries of the USSR, for example, can still get off by buying Chinese planes, and there are simply no other options for Indians.
  27. Tycoon
    Tycoon 7 May 2020 07: 15 New
    0
    What a crazy article ??? Give a link to the original ....... Where did the figure 218 million come from ????
  28. V.I.P.
    V.I.P. 7 May 2020 08: 22 New
    0
    There and F-16 (adapted for India F-21) they are offered at a good price. So, there is a high probability that they will buy the F-16 ....
  29. Pavel57
    Pavel57 7 May 2020 11: 17 New
    0
    Let's see how the Indians will have an accident with the Rafals.
  30. Sarkazm
    Sarkazm 8 May 2020 00: 14 New
    0
    Quote: Tycoon
    What a crazy article ??? Give a link to the original ....... Where did the figure 218 million come from ????
    This is the cost of the contract divided by the number of vehicles, that is, with weapons and training, etc. per unit supplied.
  31. Sarkazm
    Sarkazm 8 May 2020 00: 16 New
    0
    Quote: V.I.P.
    There and F-16 (adapted for India F-21) they are offered at a good price. So, there is a high probability that they will buy the F-16 ....
    There is no point in this for the Indians, although with their level of corruption, where they outdid us, of course, all can be expected, but hardly.