Military Review

Last Thanks to General Denikin

291
Last Thanks to General Denikin

В stories many names. History stores the names of saints and villains, heroes and scoundrels, in history there are many things. But there is a separate cohort that stands apart. These are the so-called historically controversial individuals.


That is, those about which you can argue ad infinitum.

I will not give examples, since the person I want to talk about is himself such a person for many. Controversial.

Although for me personally there is no doubt what kind of person Anton Ivanovich Denikin was, for a long time. I will not impose my opinion on anyone, but for me, General Denikin is an example of how a person who is honest and sincere in his beliefs should live a life. Not for sale or for any good.

Let's leave the biography of Anton Ivanovich aside, anyone can get acquainted with it without our help. And we will focus on events related to the Great Patriotic War, the benefit of the event was more than significant and interesting.

It is no secret to anyone that General Denikin was not a supporter of Soviet Russia and participated in the Civil War on the side of the White Movement.

“My always sincere desire was for Russia to come to this by evolution rather than revolution” (A. I. Denikin).

But first, a small retreat, throwing us back during the Civil War. And I'll start it with one statement.

General Denikin did not like the Germans.

There is no direct evidence of this; Anton Ivanovich was a very politically correct person, but his actions testify in favor of my statement.

First, Denikin led a very delicate political game to replace the pro-German Cossack chieftain Peter Krasnov with the allied-oriented African Bogaevsky. We can say that the game was a success, and Krasnov left for Germany for citizenship, and later - to serve Hitler and get the rope from the Soviet court.

Secondly, more than strained relations with the hetman Pavel Skoropadsky, the creator of the somewhat awkward Ukrainian state. The Germans stood behind that Ukraine, and they did not like Denikin’s policy at all. Denikin deprived himself of the influx of both volunteers from Ukraine and German weapons. But - what has been done is done.

In general, Anton Ivanovich never considered the Germans, former adversaries, as allies. And he never agreed on this issue with Krasnov, who really wanted a German hand on his leash.

However, to each his own.

Was Denikin an enemy of Soviet power? Oh yeah! Intransigent and open.

“As before, and now I consider inevitable and necessary an armed struggle with the Bolsheviks until their complete defeat. Otherwise, not only Russia, but all of Europe will turn into ruins ”(A. I. Denikin).

Were Denikin an enemy of Russia? No.

Very clearly distinguishable line. Denikin hated the Bolsheviks and stood for the complete eradication of Soviet power by all available methods, except one. Anton Ivanovich simply was hindered by any attempt to intervene from without.

That is, the problem of the system in the country should have been solved only by Russians. Not British, not Germans, not French. Citizens of Russia, whatever it may be, an empire or a federation.

An important point.

1933, Hitler came to power in Germany, for which, at that time, nationalist forces were already perfectly visible. The farther Germany strengthened, the more attention of the Russian emigration attracted this fact.

It is no secret that over the past 20+ years, not all emigrants have completely cooled down, many have revived the ideas of restoration. However, the development of the USSR made it clear that it was impossible or unrealistic to do this with internal forces.

Accordingly, one could only hope for external factors such as Great Britain or Germany.

Interestingly, Denikin initially arrived precisely in the stronghold of Russophobia, in Britain. But after Prime Minister Lord Curzon decided to use Denikin in negotiations with the Bolsheviks, Anton Ivanovich left the country. And he lived in Belgium, Hungary, France.

As soon as they started talking in Russian emigre circles that "Europe will help us", referring to Hitler's Germany, Denikin instantly reacted. And just as a combat general could have reacted, he beat the Germans in the fields of the First World War.

Yes, Anton Ivanovich could no longer fight, but from a military general he turned into a very advanced and respected writer and publicist. "Essays on Russian Troubles" is a very accurate and fairly stated point of view on what is happening in the country. And this is not Solzhenitsyn, this is Denikin.


So, given the ability of Anton Ivanovich to “burn the hearts of people” with a verb, as well as the newspaper Volunteer, which appeared in Paris from 1936 to 1938 and where Denikin published his articles, we can say that the general made the best use of his potential in the upcoming war with the Germans.

And at the turn of 1937-39, a real split occurred among Russian emigrants. A fairly large number of prominent figures of the emigrant movement spoke out in every way to support any actions against the USSR, including the participation in hostilities against the Red Army.

It is clear that due to the absence of Pyotr Wrangel (who had died by then), the center of such a movement was General Pyotr Krasnov. Which was connected with Denikin fierce "friendship" since 1919. But Krasnov threw himself into Hitler’s arms, but Denikin’s reaction was very peculiar.

Anton Ivanovich began to speak out against the Nazis. Moreover, he began to prove the need for support by emigrants of the Red Army in the event of a war.

No, everything is fine, Denikin did not "change his shoes." According to his plans, it was the Red Army, defeating the Germans, that it would sweep the Bolsheviks out of Russia with a steel broom. Here, of course, the general was a little mistaken, but the result was very effective.

Emigration thought for a while.

In reality, Denikin’s weight in the exile environment was very, very. Perhaps someone could compete with him, but really from the military it was Peter Wrangel. The rest, excuse me, were smaller in caliber.

“It is impossible - they say alone - to defend Russia, undermining its forces by the overthrow of power ...
It is impossible, others say, to overthrow the Soviet regime without the participation of external forces, even those pursuing exciting goals ...
In a word, or the Bolshevik noose, or a foreign yoke.
I don’t accept either the loop or the yoke.
I believe and confess: the overthrow of Soviet power and the defense of Russia. "


An interesting position that Denikin outlined in his great work “World Events and the Russian Question” in 1939. He read it as a lecture and even published it as a separate book.

The lecture actually caused a split in the ranks of emigration, dividing into those who considered it their duty to go and fight in the ranks of the Wehrmacht with the Red Army, and those who abandoned this idea.

There were a majority of those who refused. Yes, the Cossack part of the emigration went after Krasnov to serve the Germans. Someone can be regretted, but these people themselves determined their fate.

Then there was the fight against the EMRO, the Russian All-Military Union, an organization that also planned to participate in the military struggle with the Soviet Union. In contrast to the EMRO, the “Union of Volunteers” was created, the main idea of ​​which was the work on “brain cleaning”. Perhaps you should not say who became the first head of the "Union"?

As a result, the ROVS as a combat structure in World War II did not take part, but its members fought on both sides of the front.

In general, the Germans appreciated the work against the Reich. And when France surrendered, Denikin had to go through many unpleasant minutes. Here and the arrest with the conclusion of his wife, and living under the supervision of the Gestapo, and the prohibition of a large number of articles and brochures in which the general spoke out against the Nazi idea of ​​the Germans.


The Germans did not beat, well done. Could completely complicate the life of the general until its suppression, but did not. But in that case, Denikin would instantly become a symbol of resistance, completely unnecessary to the Germans, and have behind him an angry Russian White Guard emigration scattered throughout Europe, even considering the power of the Gestapo, whatever one may say, the hemorrhoids would be very large.

And so it turned out that the Cossacks and some part of the emigration, supporting Krasnov, went to serve Hitler, while the bulk of the emigration simply remained to sit at home.

Not the most stupid part of emigration, as practice has shown.

How else? General Denikin, the smartest and most cultured person who could have done just as well as a word with a shell, and even a patriot, although emigration respected him in his own way, as a strong person should.

Yes, Denikin until his death remained an adversary of the Soviet system on the one hand, dreamed of overthrowing the Soviet regime, even by military means, but on the other hand, urged emigrants not to support Germany in the war with the USSR.

The slogan “Defense of Russia and the overthrow of Bolshevism”, which was preached by Anton Ivanovich, turned out to be very effective. And together with Denikin's dislike of the Germans ...

You can talk a lot about the fact that General Denikin was a controversial person. Although, in my opinion, he was not in dispute. He was just a person, a patriot of Russia, his own Russia. And, most importantly, what Denikin did was split emigration with his articles.

Just think and evaluate how many Brandenburgs and Nachtigales could be recruited and created from the White Guards?

And that would be serious: smart, educated, knowledgeable about the history and customs of the country, fluent in the language ...

The NKVD really would have to be hard.

But in real life, only Cossacks, who could not be taken seriously even then, went sort of like fighting. Well, chasing the partisans.

You can argue, you can express your opinion, you can not agree with mine. But such was my opinion that Anton Ivanovich Denikin, with his articles and speeches, deprived the Wehrmacht and Abwehr of many valuable employees. And those who nevertheless went to serve Hitler did not feel comfortable, because Mr. General was able to cover with a bend those who went to fight against his country.

Well, everyone has their own understanding of patriotism and service to the motherland.

My opinion is that during the Second World War, General Denikin did not just fulfill his duty, but did it as a true patriot. And his contribution to the victory was. And you have to be grateful for him.

Today, Anton Ivanovich Denikin does not care what they say and write about him. I think it’s enough just to stop considering him a “controversial person,” General Denikin did not argue with anyone. He just lived like a true patriot of his country lives. General Denikin lived his life in the name of his Russia so that God forbid everyone to live that way.
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  1. avia12005
    avia12005 5 May 2020 05: 45 New
    33
    What can we talk about, if every now and then there are laudatory articles about "father" Panvitsa and his Cossacks. In some places on the Don, they even sing songs about him. The state is silent without ideology, and therefore there are endless opportunities to equate Denikin and Krasnov, and to glorify Mannerheim with Vlasov.
    1. carstorm 11
      carstorm 11 5 May 2020 05: 48 New
      +5
      trying does not mean the result. Denikin and Krasnov can be equated only by people who cannot even read. well, or think. Denikin Roman is right, the personality is not at all controversial. he was a patriot of his Russia. they remained their whole life.
      1. Basil50
        Basil50 5 May 2020 06: 48 New
        41
        Denikin is the one who openly traded the remains of the RUSSIAN EMPIRE. What is the merit of this former general? The fact that he did not sell to the Germans, but to the French-British. The fact that * Germans did not tolerate *?
        The bloody acts of the army under the command of Denikin are known, * whites * from the Germans differed only in the language of the teams. The ferocity and ruthlessness of intimidation and robbery were very similar.
        1. carstorm 11
          carstorm 11 5 May 2020 06: 57 New
          +8
          In exile, he refuses the support of Churchill and aristocratic English circles, promising major financial injections. A few months later, the white general left for France. His life in exile was modest, he lived in subsistence farming, but he still carefully monitored the situation in Russia, leaving no hope of returning. What did he sell there? do not you think that this refusal does not at all combine with what you say?
        2. The leader of the Redskins
          The leader of the Redskins 5 May 2020 07: 07 New
          24
          That this article would appear was predictable. Even yesterday, about General Krasnov, the author expressed his ambiguous position towards Denikin and guessed that Roman would try to "consolidate the success."
          But yesterday, one phrase was cut ... Here it is:
          Krasnov was worthy of a bullet. As an officer of the enemy army. But as a Russian who called for and facilitated the killing of Russians, excuse me
          This is a quote from yesterday's article. Well, there it was about the Second World War. Today about Denikin ... But was not the White Guard general a participant in the White Terror? Didn’t give orders for battles with the Red Army? With the very one from which the army of winners in the Second World War later grew?
          Or were these other Russians? ...
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. RUSS
            RUSS 5 May 2020 13: 00 New
            -14
            Quote: Leader of the Redskins
            That this article would appear was predictable. Even yesterday, about General Krasnov, the author expressed his ambiguous position towards Denikin and guessed that Roman would try to "consolidate the success."
            But yesterday, one phrase was cut ... Here it is:
            Krasnov was worthy of a bullet. As an officer of the enemy army. But as a Russian who called for and facilitated the killing of Russians, excuse me
            This is a quote from yesterday's article. Well, there it was about the Second World War. Today about Denikin ... But was not the White Guard general a participant in the White Terror? Didn’t give orders for battles with the Red Army? With the very one from which the army of winners in the Second World War later grew?
            Or were these other Russians? ...

            Denikin crushed the Reds and was very successful, in general for him, like for most whites, the Reds were impostors who seized power, terrorists and ban formations.
            1. Marine engineer
              Marine engineer 5 May 2020 13: 49 New
              17
              “Denikin nipped red and very successfully,”

              Well, yes, I ached that I didn’t notice how I ended up in Novorossiysk with a decomposed army.
              1. RUSS
                RUSS 6 May 2020 13: 27 New
                -2
                Quote: Marine Engineer
                Well, yes, I ached that I didn’t notice how I ended up in Novorossiysk with a decomposed army.

                As a result of negotiations between the Poles and the Bolsheviks, a secret agreement was concluded, under which the Bolsheviks pledged to suspend hostilities on the northern sector of the Polish-Soviet front (Dvinsk - Polotsk), and the Poles did not launch an offensive to assist General Denikin on the Kiev-Chernigov front. Moreover, in order to hide the fact of a double game, the Polish mission in the White Guard rate continued to "work" as if nothing had happened, and at the headquarters of the Entente, Polish officers reported that "everything is going according to plan." The fact that Pilsudski’s plans did not include support for the White Guards is also evidenced by the verbal message, which, before entering into secret agreements, was transmitted by the Polish officer to the representative of the Bolsheviks, Y. Marhlevsky. In it, in particular, it was said: “Assisting Denikin in his struggle against the Bolsheviks does not correspond to Polish state interests. A blow to the Bolsheviks in the direction of Mazyr would undoubtedly help Denikin and could even become the decisive moment of his victory. Poland on the Polessky Front had and is strong enough to carry out this strike. Have we implemented it? Was this not supposed to open the eyes of the Bolsheviks? ”
                One of the prominent red commanders of those years M. Tukhachevsky also wrote that it was Poland’s position that predetermined the strategic defeat of the whites: “Denikin’s attack on Moscow, supported by the Polish offensive from the west, could have ended much worse for us, and it’s hard to even predict end results ... "

                Thus, the White Guard movement was doomed to slow and painful liquidation. This is also evidenced by the recollections of another Polish general Galler, who noted that “the too quick liquidation of Denikin did not correspond to our interests. We would prefer that his resistance last, so that he would for a while tie up Soviet forces. I reported on this situation to the Supreme Leader (Pilsudski). Of course, it was not a matter of real assistance to Denikin, but only an extension of his agony. ”
          3. Zementbomber
            Zementbomber 8 May 2020 02: 22 New
            -2
            But was not the White Guard general a participant in the White Terror? Didn’t give orders for battles with the Red Army?

            And what was illegal or immoral in that. to join the battle with the boors who raised an armed revolt, who called themselves the "Red" Army? (really the Army - it became, yes - but much later, only in 1941)
            And yes - my late great-grandfathers were among the "reds" and among the "whites" and among the "Petliurites".
            1. gsev
              gsev 10 May 2020 15: 27 New
              +1
              [quote = Zementbomber] And what was illegal or immoral in that. to join the battle with the boors who raised an armed revolt, who called themselves the "Red" Army? [/ quote
              Look, Denikin recognized France’s right to Ukrainian Railways for helping France. That is, for his victory, he sold the welfare of his country. And those whom you call boors defended the state property of their homeland from plunder by such crooks as Krasnov, Petlyura and Denikin. Of course, Denikin didn’t act as meanly as Pan Vygovsky, who paid the Ukrainian slaves with the Crimean Tatars for military assistance after the Konotop battle. And the Petliurites killed, raped, and robbed their fellow citizens no less cruelly than the Crimean Tatars at the time of the Ruin.
              1. Zementbomber
                Zementbomber 10 May 2020 23: 04 New
                0
                Look, Denikin recognized France’s right to Ukrainian Railways for helping France. That is, for his victory, he sold the welfare of his country.

                I recommend reading at least the Soviet historical works dedicated to that period. The deal on the transfer, after the victory over the Bolsheviks, of the "state railways of the Southwest Territory" in the concession (EMNIS, for 50 years) to the "French Society of State Railways" - was concluded by a certain Lieutenant General Baron Wrangel. How did "Tsar Anton" feel about "Tsar Peter IV", his actions and views - should you remind them?
                By the way, here we can recall the concession policy of the Bolsheviks themselves and the sale of cultural treasures and reserves of precious stones of Russia to the "decaying West".
                Of course, Denikin didn’t act as meanly as Pan Vygovsky, who paid the Ukrainian slaves with the Crimean Tatars for military assistance after the Konotop battle.

                And Hetman Khmelnitsky, his heirs in the positions of the Left Bank ("Russian") Ukraine and the Russian voivods who acted with them in aggregate - with the Crimean Tatars allied to them - did not pay with Ukrainian slaves, no? Oh yes - this is a "non-template" !.
                And the Petliurites killed, raped, and robbed their fellow citizens no less cruelly than the Crimean Tatars at the time of the Ruin.

                Ask why Semyon Mikhailovich Budyonny was sentenced to "suspended execution" when he was the commander of the First Horse. What was the former official ally of the "red" RPAU? And other interesting things. hi
                1. gsev
                  gsev 11 May 2020 07: 58 New
                  0
                  Quote: Zementbomber
                  Russian governors - with allied Crimean Tatars

                  It was the greed of the Tatars that forced Khmelnitsky to turn to Russia for help. As the Russian state strengthened, fewer Russian, Circassian, Ukrainian, and Polish slaves were sold to Turkish harems. As far as I know, after 2014 the flow of Ukrainians to the Turkish slave market began to grow.
                  1. Zementbomber
                    Zementbomber 11 May 2020 09: 23 New
                    0
                    Those. - on none of the points cited by me - are there no objections? wink And thank you! smile
                    Well, think about why a classmate of my former stepdaughter has a flourishing business of importing girls to Turkey (and she and her Turkish husband are still picking them up a lot), and "for some reason" they go to "prosperous and dynamically developing" Russia (for with rare exceptions) well, that's not interesting at all. Not to trade for myself, nor for other activities ...
                    1. gsev
                      gsev 12 May 2020 16: 05 New
                      0
                      Quote: Zementbomber
                      Those. - on none of the points cited by me - are there no objections? wink And thank you! smile
                      ), and "to a prosperous and dynamically developing" Russia - they "for some reason" go (with rare exceptions) well, that's not at all interesting. Not to trade for myself, nor for other activities ...

                      At our enterprise there are quite a lot of ladies from Ukraine. Pretty good accountants, managers. Usually over time, they accept Russian citizenship. I suppose that, unlike the 1990s, life in production is not easy in Russia, but there is a prospect and a feeling of reliability in production work and in trade.
                      1. Zementbomber
                        Zementbomber 13 May 2020 08: 48 New
                        0
                        What is the starting salary for such a "manager-accountant" and what city are you talking about?
                      2. gsev
                        gsev 13 May 2020 15: 38 New
                        0
                        Quote: Zementbomber
                        What is the starting salary for such a "manager-accountant"

                        Accountants and managers are different people. Their salary is a trade secret and I do not know. But the status and salary of an accountant and a sales manager in our company are often higher than my constructor salary.
      2. Pravodel
        Pravodel 5 May 2020 08: 20 New
        11
        Dear, there was a civil war in which both parties raged. Denikin and the citizens of Russia, then Russia, who stood behind him, lost, but, correctly, the author of the article says: many of the losers were not traitors to their homeland, their homeland, since they understood it, and despite the hatred of the Soviet regime, remained patriots of Russia until the end of their lives. These patriots just belonged A.I. Denikin. You can argue a lot about Denikin’s actions during and after the civil war, about his struggle against the Soviet regime, but here’s what Denikin is with, and such as A.I. Denikin, never fought, so it is with Russia, with his homeland, which they were forced to abandon. And therefore, while remaining a patriot of Russia, A.I. Denikin, and such as Denikin, while remaining consistent anti-Bolsheviks and being in exile, could not imagine how one could become an enemy of their homeland, Russia, their homeland, fight against it, against their people. By the way, it should be not only about A.I. Denikin, but also about all our compatriots who assisted the USSR in the fight against fascism, who fought underground, who died in the dungeons of the Gestapo. All of them have a bright eternal memory. And the traitors of the Russian people - a rope.
        1. Basil50
          Basil50 5 May 2020 11: 42 New
          +2
          truth
          Well, you can’t. The figures of the * white movement * were not CITIZENS; they officially declared themselves subjects. Under any monarchy there are only subjects. KNOW.
          Denikin did not suffer temporary because of the overthrow and for the arrest of the king. He positioned himself ONLY as a subject. True, Nicholas number two also despised.
          1. RUSS
            RUSS 5 May 2020 12: 58 New
            -2
            Quote: Vasily50
            Well, you can’t. Figures of the * white movement * were not CITIZENS, they officially declared themselves subjects

            Brad, most of the leaders of the white movement were "Republicans"
            1. LeonidL
              LeonidL 6 May 2020 06: 06 New
              +7
              The White movement did not have a unified ideology, there was no clear understanding of "republicanism", there and then they could be slapped for republicanism. Some of the officers recognized the Constituent Assembly, some simply and stupidly considered it necessary to drive them into the barn (read Budberg), some - to enter Moscow with a white horse, and then, after the "purge" ... Most of "For a single and indivisible", the smaller part of "God Save the Tsar!" ... Denikin was never able to formulate the fundamental idea of ​​the White movement, Kolchak could not, Wrangel did not have time. Read the memoirs of whites, written hot on the trail in exile. But there was no smell of republicans, Denikin is a republican? Okostya! Maybe Semyonov, Krasnov, Dutov, Kalmykov, Shkuro, Ungern, Molchanov, Pokrovsky ... Republicans? When the Kuban vyaknula something like that for the "republic", then Pokrovsky with a company quickly hanged vyakolschikov.
          2. Astra wild
            Astra wild 5 May 2020 16: 01 New
            +9
            Vasily 50, Nicholas 2 has only one positive quality - a loving husband. This quality is catastrophically small for the head of state
          3. Sneaky Urus
            Sneaky Urus 6 May 2020 14: 02 New
            0
            Why would Denikin be a monarchist? As he wrote, until 1917 he was a supporter of the constitutional monarchy. Accusers of white, as always, do not own equipment.
            1. ccsr
              ccsr 6 May 2020 18: 24 New
              -2
              Quote: Sneaky Urus
              Why would Denikin be a monarchist?

              But didn’t the monarch bestow the officer rank on his father? Why shouldn't Denikin be a monarchist if the monarch raised his family from mud to riches? Then it turns out that he is not a man of honor, but simply an opportunist, instead of standing by the wall for monarchism, he took the position of constitutional restrictions. I don’t know what you know about the theory of monarchism in Russia, but I’ll remind you just in case that Lev Tikhomirov, the son of an officer, was an outstanding theoretician of that time, although his life path is more complicated than that of Denikin.
              1. Sneaky Urus
                Sneaky Urus 12 May 2020 13: 57 New
                0
                What does the award of ranks have to do with political views? yes
                1. ccsr
                  ccsr 12 May 2020 14: 00 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Sneaky Urus
                  What does the award of ranks have to do with political views?

                  This is related to the decency of a person.
                  1. Sneaky Urus
                    Sneaky Urus 15 May 2020 10: 03 New
                    0
                    Is Denikin dishonorable? Stirred while standing. :) Comrades, whispers of whites, before you carry the blizzard, you should at least read special literature, and not just Wikipedia.
            2. Zementbomber
              Zementbomber 11 May 2020 01: 15 New
              0
              Why would Denikin be a monarchist? As he wrote, until 1917 he was a supporter of the constitutional monarchy. Accusers of white, as always, do not own equipment.

              Until 1992 - I myself belonged to the "white" (even "white-black" smile ) - although “nominal republicans” - and I can note that “defenders of“ whites ”- it would also be nice to“ own materiel. ”A supporter of a constitutional monarchy is also a monarch, but yes. wink
              1. Sneaky Urus
                Sneaky Urus 12 May 2020 13: 58 New
                0
                in my quote I wrote "until 1917". Read the literature on topics - there will be no overshoots. wink
        2. mat-vey
          mat-vey 5 May 2020 11: 50 New
          +5
          Quote: The Truth
          Dear, there was a civil war in which both parties raged.

          Only for some reason many forget that one of the parties was rampant before the civil war ...
          1. Pilat2009
            Pilat2009 13 May 2020 09: 02 New
            0
            Quote: mat-vey
            Quote: The Truth
            Dear, there was a civil war in which both parties raged.

            Only for some reason many forget that one of the parties was rampant before the civil war ...

            And how did she rage?
            1. mat-vey
              mat-vey 28 June 2020 05: 12 New
              0
              Quote: Pilat2009
              And how did she rage?

              So you do not know about serfdom? Do you not know about the executions and flogging of peasants until the revolution?
        3. Pushkar
          Pushkar 5 May 2020 15: 25 New
          14
          Quote: The Truth
          but with what Denikin, and such as A.I. Denikin, never fought, so it is with Russia, with his homeland, which they were forced to abandon.

          Well, yes, I never fought. I didn’t fight that I escaped after the war in the USA and defended the war criminals who had fled to the states from among German lackeys, didn’t object to the war with the USSR, only tearfully asked not to dismember Russia. Roman, did not expect from you the glorification of bastards who spilled the rivers of blood of our fellow citizens and so descended into the world without repentance.
      3. RUSS
        RUSS 5 May 2020 12: 53 New
        -3
        Quote: Vasily50
        Denikin is the one who openly traded the remains of the RUSSIAN EMPIRE.

        How is that?
      4. RUSS
        RUSS 5 May 2020 13: 10 New
        0
        "Denikin is a fanatic of the empire. His goal was Russia within the borders of the Romanov empire. Denikin did not recognize any Ukraine, only Little Russia and Little Russians. No independent Finland, the Baltic states, Poland (although Denikin himself was half Pole). The empire is united and indivisible. All the rest questions - the economy, the political system, he was interested insofar as. And he, as a military man, did not really understand this. "
        1. itis
          itis 10 May 2020 15: 07 New
          +1
          the desire to restore the monarchy (after February and October) and was the main reason for the defeat of the "white movement" (that's why it was called)
        2. gsev
          gsev 12 May 2020 16: 16 New
          0
          Quote: RUSS
          His goal was Russia within the borders of the Romanov empire. Denikin did not recognize any Ukraine, only Little Russia and Little Russians. No independent Finland, the Baltic states,

          As far as I know, Denikin de facto recognized the inviolability of the northern borders of Georgia and Azerbaijan. Wrangel de facto recognized the rights of Poland to the right-bank Ukraine. Japanese and Americans quickly explained to Kolchak that the Supreme Ruler of Russia in the Trans-Baikal region is political zero.
      5. Pilat2009
        Pilat2009 10 May 2020 17: 35 New
        0
        Quote: Vasily50
        Denikin is the one who openly traded the remains of the RUSSIAN EMPIRE. What is the merit of this former general? The fact that he did not sell to the Germans, but to the French-British. The fact that * Germans did not tolerate *?
        The bloody acts of the army under the command of Denikin are known, * whites * from the Germans differed only in the language of the teams. The ferocity and ruthlessness of intimidation and robbery were very similar.

        I beg you. What did Denikin sell to the French, what would the Bolsheviks not give / sell? As for the bloody deeds, this is my friend’s war. Not for life but for death. And the Reds also did not stand on ceremony
    2. Alekseev
      Alekseev 5 May 2020 09: 55 New
      -13
      Quote: carstorm 11
      Denikin Roman is right, the personality is not at all controversial. he was a patriot of his Russia. they remained their whole life.

      That's for sure! And, A.I. Denikin, though after death, achieved his goal. The Bolshevik regime collapsed, and he rested in Moscow, in his native Russian land. And the monument to him was erected by the President of Russia personally (for personal funds). Thanks to Roman for the article.
      Opinions like
      Quote: Vasily50
      Denikin is the one who frankly traded the remainder
      from ignorance. fool
      Ask such an ignorant "orthodox Bolshevik" to give a historical example: what exactly did Gen.Denikin sell to the Anglo-French? Will puff into two holes and be silent.
      It is necessary similar to those who are nostalgic for the dictatorship of the proletariat (although what is the proletariat in this dictatorship? lol ) periodically give a shake, despite the merciless screech and minus.
      To act differently does not give a damn about the memory of millions of our compatriots who died innocently destroyed by evil will during the years of repression, collectivization and stupidity that appeared in the state. management, too, mainly from repression during the war.
      Although, undoubtedly, the years of communist rule are years of contrast. Great achievements coexisted with terrible crimes. But the story cannot be undone, everything is as it is.
      1. Octopus
        Octopus 5 May 2020 11: 07 New
        -16
        Quote: Alekseev
        A.I. Denikin, though after death, achieved his goal. The Bolshevik regime collapsed

        The Bolshevik regime, like a tick, fell off from Russia, when it could no longer suck Russian blood. He fell off for a while, after a couple of years the Russians in the name of the one and indivisible again threw firewood into the fire. Guilty of Denikin personally in this state of affairs is enormous. He is one of those who was obliged to stop the Bolsheviks, to lose anything, to agree with anyone, to hell, with the devil, but to stop. How did Mannerheim, how did Franco, the Poles, the Baltic states. But not Denikin. The blood of millions of victims of the Bolsheviks is on it too.

        What about WWII? What do we see? The same nepotism that already cost him Russia. What did he do to hinder the expansion of the USSR? Nothing. What did he do to save the Russians, how much could be saved? Nothing. He sat waiting for the Americans. Trotsky made for liberation from the Bolsheviks, if not Russia, but Europe, more than Denikin. Therefore, Comrade Stalin appreciated the merits of Comrade Trotsky, but not Denikin.

        Cardboard fool.
        1. AllBiBek
          AllBiBek 5 May 2020 12: 00 New
          +9
          For example, he collected money and sent a medicine car to the USSR in 1943. Although he himself did not show off in exile, especially during the WWII, and was, to put it mildly, under the supervision of the Gestapo. Is that not enough?

          At least, Andrei Gordeev mentions this with reference to archival documents, and he dug deeply over that period.
          1. Octopus
            Octopus 5 May 2020 13: 09 New
            -3
            Quote: AllBiBek
            he collected money and sent a medicine car to the USSR in 1943. Although he himself did not show off in exile, especially during the WWII, and was, to put it mildly, under the supervision of the Gestapo. Is that not enough?

            For the nominal head of Russia in exile? Is a mockery.

            Speaking of the Gestapo. And why did he live under this very supervision? It was not his personal choice, was it?
            1. AllBiBek
              AllBiBek 5 May 2020 13: 25 New
              0
              An alien soul - dark, but - a counter-question - why was the Gestapo to produce martyrs in the white emigration?

              The article, of course, indicates that most of it remained inert, but the lists of personnel of the same French SS Charlemagne division say a little bit differently.

              What Denikin stirred up and how - I do not know, but at one time it was painfully staring into the mouth of the Americans, and they like to warm and warm such characters.

              They even have a Tatar gay pride in the role of the self-proclaimed head of Tatarstan, and you've even heard about him, most likely, this is the mug that was promoted as "Novichok's developer". They also have enough other freaks with geopolitical ambitions for all occasions, and for any country and region.

              If I remember correctly the facts excavated by Gordeev, then the medicine car is a fee for Denikin’s works published in the USA, and also delivered through the Americans. But the Germans stupidly did not allow him to publish, in general.
              1. Octopus
                Octopus 5 May 2020 13: 35 New
                +1
                Quote: AllBiBek
                But the Germans stupidly did not allow him to publish, in general.

                What a tragedy.
                Quote: AllBiBek
                An alien soul - dark, but - a counter-question - why was the Gestapo to produce martyrs in the white emigration?

                Well, you see. What understanding people worked in this organization, who would have thought.
                1. AllBiBek
                  AllBiBek 5 May 2020 13: 44 New
                  +1
                  And in such organizations, fools never play any important roles.

                  Why put a chicken under a knife that could potentially start to lay golden eggs?

                  To scare and beat a chicken is not the best way to increase its egg production.
            2. Zementbomber
              Zementbomber 8 May 2020 02: 31 New
              +1
              For the nominal head of Russia in exile?

              ShtA? belay Anton Ivanovich never not was neither "nominal" nor "real" Head of All Russia. The last one was the admiral laughing Kolchak.
              Speaking of the Gestapo. And why did he live under this very supervision? It was not his personal choice, was it?

              Yes, I understand that it is strong - 146% - cooler - to throw an F-1 grenade through the window of the Gestapo office in the prefecture. But not everyone was born for "Simbu Tokubetsu-Kogekitai" - even in the so far One and Only Japanese Empire ... hi
              1. Octopus
                Octopus 8 May 2020 06: 06 New
                -1
                Quote: Zementbomber
                Anton Ivanovich has never been either "nominal" or "real" Head of All Russia

                And Denikin, as I recall, was his deputy. Including at the time of the execution.
                Quote: Zementbomber
                Yes, I understand that it is strong - by 146% - cooler - to throw an F-1 grenade into the window of the Gestapo branch in the prefecture

                No. It’s better for the Russian patriot to do what is necessary for the Russians and Russia. Sitting in Normandy under German supervision is not the most obvious decision.

                You can say anything about Krasnov and Shkuro, but they didthat was considered correct. Denikin did nothing. No, it has the right, no one is obliged to be a hero, especially in retirement.
                1. Zementbomber
                  Zementbomber 10 May 2020 23: 32 New
                  0
                  And Denikin, as I recall, was his deputy.

                  The "deputy" of the Supreme Ruler was the eldest of the Pepeliaev brothers. Lieutenant General Denikin - was the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of Yugoslavia and the Commander-in-Chief over the South of Russia on the authority received from the Supreme Ruler. "The same as Semenov, Miller, Yudenich in" their "lands.
                  No. It’s better for the Russian patriot to do what is necessary for the Russians and Russia. Sitting in Normandy under German supervision is not the most obvious decision.
                  You can say anything about Krasnov and Shkuro, but they did what they thought was right. Denikin did nothing. No, it has the right, no one is obliged to be a hero, especially in retirement.

                  I rate Krasnov far above Denikin. With a bold sign "-", but above all the leaders of that rather vague and shapeless coalition, which is customary in Russian-language literature and journalism to be called the "white movement." However, although I profess kami-no-michi kokutai, I think it is completely wrong to demand self-sacrifice from others with a 146% guarantee of sawing, and even more so. My observations show that 99.99 ...% of such "harsh judges" have never been under bullets. Denikin did what he could, and as best he could. IMHO. You can blame him for many mistakes (major, perhaps even fatal for the White Cause) - yes, of course. But no way not for the fact that he did not go in 1940 to the "partisans and frantirers" and other "poppies".
                  1. Octopus
                    Octopus 10 May 2020 23: 45 New
                    +1
                    Quote: Zementbomber
                    but I think it’s completely wrong to demand self-sacrifice from others with a 146% guarantee of cutting and their and their family members all the more

                    As I already said,
                    Quote: Octopus
                    has the right, no one is required to be a hero, especially in retirement.

                    Quote: Zementbomber
                    But not for the fact that he did not go in 1940 to the "partisans and frantirers" and other "poppies".

                    I am very far from the desire to see Denikin in the French La Resistance. I am sure that in the United Kingdom or the United States he could have done much more if he had not chosen a province by the sea.
                    1. Zementbomber
                      Zementbomber 11 May 2020 00: 07 New
                      0
                      Octopus, sorry, but one of my three diplomas was called "Operational art of the Wehrmacht in the Campaign in the West 1940". I still have some idea of ​​the chaos in the French rear after the breakthrough of the "Weygand Line" and the announcement by the Council of Ministers of the Republic of the "voluntary but recommended evacuation of civilians". To try to get then from the Parisian region to a very poor private person of little interest to Cherbourg, Brest or Nantes and still be able to "get out" there a place on a ship leaving for the British Isles? An undertaking with such-yourself chances of success, I can tell you ... Do not forget - Denikin for French and British homo directivus has not been a "figure" since 1920. And already in the fierce foxes June 1940 ...
                    2. Octopus
                      Octopus 11 May 2020 00: 24 New
                      +2
                      )))
                      Again. I do not argue with Denikin, everyone has their own truth, and especially not for me to judge him. I only declare that if there is a collection of silver spoons to cast him an equestrian monument, I will not bear mine.
                    3. Zementbomber
                      Zementbomber 11 May 2020 01: 49 New
                      0
                      So do I. smile For I generally have a negative attitude towards "equestrian monuments". smile
      2. Pushkar
        Pushkar 5 May 2020 15: 32 New
        +3
        Quote: AllBiBek
        For example, he collected money and sent a medicine car to the USSR in 1943.

        Where he collected and sent to the USSR? In German-occupied France? Where does this nonsense come from?
        1. AllBiBek
          AllBiBek 5 May 2020 15: 41 New
          +1
          The book is called "General Denikin" (this article is a condensed retelling) by Gordeev, it seems, Andrei-Batkovich, and then it went from it to other books: I definitely came across it in the book "The Way of a Russian Officer", I don't remember the author.

          As far as I know, "General Denikin" is the first biography involving the Soviet archives.

          And - yes, she is from the bulkokhrustny period, when from each iron sounded first "Leafing through an old notebook ..." Talkov, and then the very same "And Schubert's waltzes and the crunch of a French roll" by the "White Eagle" group, and winked at everyone Rasputin with a vodka label.
        2. Zementbomber
          Zementbomber 10 May 2020 23: 35 New
          0
          If you replace the 1943rd with the 1942th - it was theoretically real. The USSR maintained official diplomatic relations and other contacts with the Vichy regime, EMNIS, November 1942.
  2. Astra wild
    Astra wild 5 May 2020 16: 07 New
    +1
    "History cannot be undone" to your chagrin?
  3. gsev
    gsev 12 May 2020 16: 20 New
    +1
    Quote: Alekseev
    And the monument to him was erected by the President of Russia personally (for personal funds).

    From 1941 to 1944, the German occupation administration forced the population of the USSR to equip monuments to German occupants with personal funds. In 1945, they were all demolished, and the graves were plowed up.
  • Krasnoyarsk
    Krasnoyarsk 5 May 2020 09: 58 New
    +5
    Quote: carstorm 11
    personality is not at all controversial. he was a patriot of his Russia.

    That is precisely what is ours, not ours. His Russia, this is the Russia of the Michelsons, Friedman, Alikper, Fox, Potanin, etc., etc., etc.
    Had he been alive, he would have rejoiced in the 93rd overthrow of Soviet power.
    “My always sincere desire was for Russia to come to this by evolution rather than revolution” (A. I. Denikin).
    What, before that?
    = Firstly, Denikin led a very delicate political game to replace the pro-German Cossack chieftain Peter Krasnov with the allied oriented African Bogaevsky. We can say that the game was a success, and Krasnov left for Germany for citizenship, and later to serve Hitler and get a rope from a Soviet court. =
    How can this paragraph be understood? Only in this way - Denikin helped Krasnov finally decide on the choice of an ally and take the side of Hitler.
    = That is, the problem of the system in the country should have been solved only by Russians. Not British, not Germans, not French. Citizens of Russia, whatever it may be, an empire or a federation. =
    And the Russians in the civil war decided to support the Bolsheviks. But "clever" Denikin did not agree with the choice of the Russians and cruelly destroyed the Russians for their choice.
    We can draw one conclusion from here - Denikin did not need Russia, Denikin did not care about her fate, but Denikin needed the personal sweet life of the master, who was destroyed by the Bolsheviks.
    Singing praises to this man is the height of cynicism!
    Ah, he did not go to serve Hitler! So what? Turkey did not enter, and in fact could, in the "axis" Berlin-Rome-Tokyo, should we, Turkey now thank for this and sing her praises?
    = According to his plans, it was the Red Army, defeating the Germans, that it would sweep the Bolsheviks out of Russia with a steel broom. =
    And who, after these words, will call Denikin smart? Well, perhaps, - R. Skomorokhov.
    1. Octopus
      Octopus 5 May 2020 11: 11 New
      +2
      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
      His Russia, this is the Russia of the Michelsons, Friedman, Alikper, Fox, Potanin, etc., etc., etc.

      I don’t know about Michelson, but all the rest are members of the CPSU or, as a last resort, the Komsomol. Alekperov is generally deputy minister of the oil industry of the USSR.

      I do not see a place for claims to Denikin here.
      1. Krasnoyarsk
        Krasnoyarsk 5 May 2020 15: 09 New
        +1
        Quote: Octopus
        ... but all the rest are members of the CPSU or, as a last resort, the Komsomol. Alekperov so generally deputy oil minister

        With the advent of Khrushchov and the subsequent purge, no communists remained in the upper echelons of power. So what if Alekperov was deputy minister? What is this talking about, I do not understand?
        1. Octopus
          Octopus 5 May 2020 16: 43 New
          -4
          Quote: Krasnoyarsk
          So what if Alekperov was deputy minister? What is this talking about, I do not understand?

          This suggests that you have been describing the members of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union that have come true in Russia since 1979, and for some reason you are making claims to Denikin, who did not sympathize with this party.
          1. Krasnoyarsk
            Krasnoyarsk 5 May 2020 18: 22 New
            +2
            Quote: Octopus

            This suggests that you have been describing the members of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union that have come true in Russia since 1979, and for some reason you are making claims to Denikin, who did not sympathize with this party.

            I wrote that he would applaud these "communists". Because they have absolutely the same views on Russia. Russia is for them, not for the people. The people are only their servants. The people for the army, ensuring their sovereignty, protecting their territory of enrichment.
            VKPb would not allow this, so Denikin fought with her and with the people who supported her.
            1. Octopus
              Octopus 5 May 2020 18: 32 New
              -3
              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              he would have applauded these "communists". Because they have absolutely the same views on Russia.

              For some reason, it seems to me that you are extremely familiar with Denikin’s views on Russia. Moreover, for some reason it seems to me that you do not distinguish between any views on Russia other than the opinion of Comrade. Stalin and the wrong.
              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              VKPb would not allow this, so Denikin fought with her

              For some reason, I’m sure that both the CPSU (B.) And personally Comrade Stalin completely allowed the existence of the CPSU in 1952. In the Novokuibyshev city committee, for example, worked Viktor Zelmanovich Mikhelson, father of Leonid Mikhelson. Not in the know if the last member of the CPSU, but man became a member of the Komsomol as expected, back in school.
              1. Krasnoyarsk
                Krasnoyarsk 5 May 2020 18: 46 New
                +5
                Quote: Octopus

                For some reason, it seems to me that you are extremely familiar with Denikin’s views on Russia.

                Do you always judge a person by his views, and not by his deeds?
                The views of Denikin, Kolchak, Yudenich - this is a spoon of honey in a barrel of tar they did perfect.
                Quote: Octopus

                For some reason, I’m sure that both the CPSU (B.) And personally Comrade Stalin completely allowed the existence of the CPSU in 1952. AT

                You pay too much attention to the "book cover" and not pay any attention to its content.
              2. ccsr
                ccsr 5 May 2020 19: 02 New
                +5
                Quote: Octopus
                In the Novokuibyshev city committee, for example, worked Viktor Zelmanovich Mikhelson, father of Leonid Mikhelson. I do not know if he was the last member of the CPSU, but he became a male member of the Komsomol as expected, back in school.

                For objectivity, you already tell about the red bow of one of the relatives of Nicholas II - it will be more honest and objective. The fact that there are offspring in the families of high-ranking officials, to say the least mildly, has been known since the time of the emperors of Ancient Rome, and therefore your link does not mean anything if Michelson’s father worked honestly.
                1. Octopus
                  Octopus 6 May 2020 02: 22 New
                  -1
                  Quote: ccsr
                  The fact that in the families of high-ranking officials there are offspring, to put it mildly, of an obscure type,

                  Some kind of strange argument. The fact that every single so-called Yeltsin’s wave oligarchs are members of the CPSU or the Komsomol, but not a single veteran of the Supreme Soviet Union is a fact.
                  1. ccsr
                    ccsr 6 May 2020 11: 30 New
                    +2
                    Quote: Octopus
                    Some kind of strange argument.

                    Nothing strange - the former president of France, his son turned out to be a bribe taker and a corrupt official.
                    Quote: Octopus
                    The fact that every single so-called Yeltsin wave oligarchs - members of the CPSU or the Komsomol,

                    So they could not be them - their brains worked fine, and they knew how to dodge in any situation. The presence of brains does not mean the automatic presence of principles - Ostap Berder has long proved this.
                  2. Octopus
                    Octopus 6 May 2020 11: 45 New
                    +1
                    Quote: ccsr
                    So they could not be them - their brains worked fine, and they knew how to dodge in any situation.

                    What an interesting argument.

                    We discussed that Russia of Denikin and Russia of Putin are one and the same Russia.
                  3. ccsr
                    ccsr 6 May 2020 12: 23 New
                    0
                    Quote: Octopus
                    We discussed that Russia of Denikin and Russia of Putin are one and the same Russia.

                    No, not one - you want to exclude the Soviet period?
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Alexander Suvorov
    Alexander Suvorov 5 May 2020 10: 28 New
    16
    carstorm 11 (Dmitry)
    trying does not mean the result. Denikin and Krasnov can be equated only by people who cannot even read. well, or think. Denikin Roman is right, the personality is not at all controversial. he was a patriot of his Russia. they remained their whole life.
    Well, yes, one must really be a "patriot" calling on the United States to war with its homeland and its people. And most importantly, indicating how best to do it. And he asked the people if the people wanted "liberation" at such a price.
    Why are American bombs better than German bombs? Are they more democratic? A traitor, he is also a TRAITOR in Africa and Denikin, as he is not washed by a TRADER, will remain so.

    In the photo, of course, not Denikin, but from the same opera.
    1. carstorm 11
      carstorm 11 5 May 2020 11: 44 New
      -4
      you either read across or I don’t know ... this is what the article is about. that Denikin did not do this and did not want to go under Hitler. read the text of the article first and then argue.
    2. fuxila
      fuxila 5 May 2020 15: 10 New
      +1
      In the photo, of course, not Denikin, but from the same opera.

      In fact, an article about Denikin, and you dragged these photos just out of stupid hatred of the Orthodox Church, otherwise you would have printed here also photos of members of the Communist Party of Generals Vlasov, Zhilenkov, Malyshkin, Zakutny and many others who swore an oath to defend the country and betrayed her. Because those who stumbled, deceived and outright traitors were among the white emigrants and among the communists. Yes, and the movement was called precisely Vlasov's, and not Denikin's and not even Krasnov's, and mind you, they called it Vlasov's, it was the Soviet people, because the "whites" who stumbled, lost their relatives and friends in civilian life and did not swear to the USSR can still be understood, but not the communist Vlasov and others like him.
  • Valery Nikolayevich
    Valery Nikolayevich 6 May 2020 22: 20 New
    -1
    That's right, he was a patriot of "his", that is. bourgeois Russia of "their nobility", while Russia was foreign to him and the rabble, and he was going to destroy it!
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 5 May 2020 07: 23 New
    -12
    Quote: avia12005
    about "father" Panvitsa and his Cossacks. On the Don in some places even songs about him are sung.

    give specific examples: text, where, when. Or just chatter?

    by article:
    more than strained relations with the hetman Pavel Skoropadsky, the creator of the somewhat awkward Ukrainian state. The Germans stood behind that Ukraine, and they did not like Denikin’s policy at all. Denikin deprived himself of an influx of both volunteers from Ukraine and German weapons

    He had strained relations precisely because the Germans with the UPR and Skoropadsky prohibited the formation of a Volunteer Army in the territory of Little Russia.

    Subsequently, the volunteers of New Russia and Little Russia amounted to almost half of the army.

    It is no secret to anyone that General Denikin was not a supporter of Soviet Russia and participated in the Civil War on the side of the White movement
    .
    He fought on the side of RUSSIA, on the side of the legitimate authority of the Russian state, with the goal of return to the people the right, through the CSS, to determine the fate of the state itself, by force taken from him by the Bolsheviks.
    And he did not impose his vision in any way: as the people decide, so it will be!

    fought for United and Indivisible Russia, which was not ..... Ukrainian belay Odessa, Mykolaev, Kherson, Kharkov, etc., that arranged Russophobes opposing him, 5 million km2 cut off from it

    A true patriot of Russia, flesh from its flesh.

    And lies in its center, revered by descendants.

    Thanks to the author! hi
    1. Insurgent
      Insurgent 5 May 2020 07: 35 New
      12
      Quote: Olgovich
      Thanks to the author!

      Last Thanks to General Denikin

      yes "Thank you" yes



      Poster in Komi.
      Traditional pre-festive girls-designers.
      Pictured is a Finnish soldier in Lapland since 1944.
      There is a strong opinion that until huge fines and criminal cases are started for this, all this will be repeated from time to time.
      1. Alex013
        Alex013 5 May 2020 09: 42 New
        +5
        Yeah. Moreover, something similar happens from year to year ... the unfinished designer is wondering how she justified herself - that in the 44th, the Finns in Lapland were already against the Germans, or what? Editor's oversight
        1. Insurgent
          Insurgent 5 May 2020 09: 49 New
          0
          Quote: Alex013
          Editor's oversight

          Fatal "oversight" by the AUTHORITIES !

          If for such an effective punishment was provided (applied), there would be no such "mistakes".
      2. Zementbomber
        Zementbomber 10 May 2020 23: 45 New
        0
        Poster in Komi.
        Traditional pre-festive girls-designers.
        Pictured is a Finnish soldier in Lapland since 1944.
        There is a strong opinion that until huge fines and criminal cases are started for this, all this will be repeated from time to time.

        While your "patriotism" will be a tedious job of obligating the unskilled, to which at best they are indifferent, and at worst - with disgust - and do it only for the sake of a sandwich with cheap sausage, and all the governing and controlling authorities of the executor will not care -nafig on the result - neither fines nor "deeds" will help. And the failures will continue.
        Actually - the simplest example from a related field: it is enough to compare the bottom "level" of "kremlebots" and the level of "khasbarA" (even those working in RuNet - about the English-speaking ones - I'm not even talking about).
    2. Krasnoyarsk
      Krasnoyarsk 5 May 2020 10: 04 New
      11
      Quote: Olgovich
      He fought on the side of RUSSIA, on the side of the legitimate authority of the Russian state

      Was this power that overthrew the LAWFUL king through revolution a legitimate power? Okst, Olgovich!
      1. AllBiBek
        AllBiBek 5 May 2020 12: 05 New
        +1
        This is Nicholas II overthrown?

        Sorry, but who exactly? He himself actually renounced.

        The Bolsheviks threw off the Provisional Government. And the Soviets took over the functions of the local authorities, basically, by the way, at that time the Socialist-Revolutionaries ruled there.
        1. Krasnoyarsk
          Krasnoyarsk 5 May 2020 15: 12 New
          +2
          Quote: AllBiBek
          He himself actually renounced.

          Yeah. In the morning I woke up and thought - let me renounce it. laughing
          1. AllBiBek
            AllBiBek 5 May 2020 15: 44 New
            -2
            Well, he woke up with this thought at that moment most likely more than once, not two, and not ten, but one fine morning decided to act.

            Or, do you have something else written somewhere? Share what and where?
            1. Krasnoyarsk
              Krasnoyarsk 5 May 2020 15: 55 New
              +2
              Quote: AllBiBek
              and one fine morning decided to act.

              Not - "decided to act", but he was forced to renounce. Because the "February Revolution" is called bourgeois, because power has passed from the tsar to the bourgeoisie.
              1. AllBiBek
                AllBiBek 5 May 2020 16: 58 New
                -1
                Uh ... And when and where was they called her, and by analogy with what - did you try to figure it out?

                On the ground, this was perceived as a) a coup and b) which cashed out the power of what was already taxing in a larger territory. Power of the Soviets. And these same tips at that time - in 70% of cases they are not Bolsheviks at all. Social Revolutionaries.

                At that time and in the periodicals of its time - it is not a revolution. It became such after the Civil one, starting in 1923, and the dynamics of propaganda on this issue are tracked there from the epicenter and circles around.
                1. Krasnoyarsk
                  Krasnoyarsk 5 May 2020 18: 35 New
                  +4
                  Quote: AllBiBek

                  Uh ... And when and where was they called her, and by analogy with what - did you try to figure it out?

                  Uh ... First, a child is born, and only then they give him a name. And it does not matter where, when and who gave this name. It is important that if the bourgeoisie came to power (will you dispute this?), Then the name will be corresponding - the bourgeois revolution, if the Soviets came to power (and the Soviets included workers and soldiers, etc.), then the name is appropriate.
                  What does the word "revolution" mean, I hope you can figure it out for yourself.
                  1. AllBiBek
                    AllBiBek 5 May 2020 19: 43 New
                    -2
                    Naturally I will.

                    How could something that did not come to power there?

                    Where is the bourgeoisie and what?

                    It at that time was a hundred years old even in France.

                    But who was building himself out of himself and in what historical retrospective relevant at that time - well, google for the same Ungern.
                    1. Krasnoyarsk
                      Krasnoyarsk 5 May 2020 22: 48 New
                      +2
                      Quote: AllBiBek
                      Naturally I will.

                      How could something that did not come to power there?

                      Where is the bourgeoisie and what?

                      It at that time was a hundred years old even in France.

                      But who was building himself out of himself and in what historical retrospective relevant at that time - well, google for the same Ungern.

                      You want me to lecture you on watered. read the economy?
                      So I'm just too lazy. hi
      2. Olgovich
        Olgovich 5 May 2020 12: 36 New
        -7
        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
        Was this power that overthrew the LAWFUL king through revolution a legitimate power? Okst, Olgovich!


        to know the history of their homeland is necessary not through the Bolsheviks through false textbooks. and on the facts that were in reality: Emperor Nikolai denied Mikhail's favor and ordered Lvov to form a government (it was formed at the head of Lvov), Emperor Michael called his subjects to submit to the Provisional Government before the Constitutional Court. Like Nicholas called for the same.

        VP held an election campaign; the world's first popular, free, universal, equal election.


        Then the Bolsheviks came to the elections and seized power by force and column carnage with 10 million corpses.

        Denikin's program is a return to the legitimate authority of the people through elections in the Constitutional Council and its work.

        Everything is logical and consistent.

        What's not clear?!
        1. Krasnoyarsk
          Krasnoyarsk 5 May 2020 15: 33 New
          +4
          Quote: Olgovich

          Then the Bolsheviks came to the elections and seized power by force

          The question is - why should the Bolsheviks unleash a "slaughter" if the power is already in their hands?
          Quote: Olgovich
          Denikin's program is a return to the legitimate authority of the people through elections in the Constitutional Council and its work.

          In order to take power away from the Bolsheviks, Denikin and others like him began the massacre with "10 million corpses" as you say.
          Everything is logical and consistent.
          What's not clear?
          But the phrase - "return to the legitimate rule of the people" is generally a masterpiece of Olgovich's thought. laughing laughing
          It turns out - under the king and the VP, the people had power laughing but the Bolsheviks came and took power from the people, and then Denikin fought to take that power from the Bolsheviks and return it to the people again. Chuckle.
          Olgovich, once again, okst.
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 5 May 2020 20: 39 New
            -5
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            In order to take power away from the Bolsheviks, Denikin and others like him began the massacre with "10 million corpses" as you say.

            belay fool
            WHO attacked the Government of Russia ?. Who dispersed the deputies?

            With what fright TENS OF MILLIONS of citizens of the country who chose their power (non-Bolshevik) should have submitted ..... to a losing minority? fool

            с
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            But the phrase - "return to the legitimate rule of the people" is generally a masterpiece of Olgovich's thought.
            It turns out - under the tsar and the VP, the people had power, but the Bolsheviks came and took power from the people, and then Denikin fought, to take this very power from the Bolsheviks and again return it to the people. Chuckle.

            That is exactly what happened! yes

            For YOURs were paranoid and were afraid of the elections of the people ALL their lives — until night sweats and squeals, hiccups and incontinence — and have never held an election.
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            Olgovich, once again, okst.


            Ignorant-in SCHOOL- for knowledge on the history of their homeland!
            1. Krasnoyarsk
              Krasnoyarsk 5 May 2020 23: 00 New
              +4
              Quote: Olgovich
              WHO attacked the Russian government?

              Is it on the Kerensky government? So the people attacked. Because this government, unlike the Bolsheviks, decided to continue the war. In the name of whose interests? Do not tell me?
              Quote: Olgovich

              With what fright TENS OF MILLIONS of citizens of the country who chose their power (non-Bolshevik) should have submitted ..... to a losing minority?

              Did these tens of millions tell you this?
              Why did the Bolsheviks win? Because they were supported by the PEOPLE!
              And if this is not clear to you, then urgently to the doctor. I, and no one else, of course, except the doctor, can help you.
              Success in treatment. hi
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 6 May 2020 06: 14 New
                -6
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                Is it on the Kerensky government? So the people attacked.

                Who called a bunch of foreign tourists .... people? fool lol Themselves ... Intourists?
                "Argument", yes ... fool lol

                And the people didn’t suspect the thief, and go to the SCHOOL !.
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                . Because this government, unlike the Bolsheviks, decided to continue the war.

                What nonsense .... VP ensured ELECTIONS. peace issues. state building decided CSS

                At least honor your bald Karl from the Swiss and so-called. so-called decrees "Sov." authorities: All-Russian Congress
                Councils of workers, soldiers decides:

                To educate for governing the country henceforth before convocation
                Constituent assembly
                , Temporary workers and peasants
                government

                In the name of the Government of the Republic, elected All-Russian 25
                Congress of Workers 'and Soldiers' Deputies with the participation of peasant
                The Council of People's Commissars decides:
                1) Elections to the Constituent Assembly must be held in
                due date, November 12
                .

                They promised voters WORK in the CSS. brazenly lied and plunged the country into a massacre.
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                Why did the Bolsheviks win? Because they were supported by the PEOPLE!

                fool
                PEOPLE chose NOT Bolsheviks. ignoramus.
                If a thug in the gateway turns your cheekbone down then he is right. time was stronger?
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                And if the you it is not clear then urgently to to the doctor. I, and no one else, except of course the doctors, we can’t help you.

                poke -will be your wife -together with the doctor, yes.

                PS Reply to simple the question could not:
                With what fright TENS OF MILLIONS of citizens of the country who chose their power (non-Bolshevik) should have submitted ..... to the minority who lost the election?


                What are you, "folk". election of the people were afraid to animal horror?

                Shame ....
                1. Krasnoyarsk
                  Krasnoyarsk 6 May 2020 09: 56 New
                  +2
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  PS I could not answer a simple question:

                  Why did the Bolsheviks win the civil war?
                  As soon as you can correctly answer this question, it will become clear to everyone present, ”the doctor helped. In the meantime, heal hi
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 6 May 2020 11: 12 New
                    -7
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    Why did the Bolsheviks win the civil war?


                    didn't get it?

                    then THIRD times:
                    WITH WHAT A Fright OF TEN MILLIONS of citizens of the country who have chosen in a popular election NON-Bolshevik power should have obeyed ..... the minority who lost the election?


                    If a thug in the gateway turns your cheekbone down then he is right. turned out to be stronger?
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    doctor helped. In the meantime be treated


                    poke your doctor with your wife

                    Got it, no? hi

                    and - look at State flag of Russia over the Kremlin, "winner" lol laughing
                    1. Krasnoyarsk
                      Krasnoyarsk 6 May 2020 12: 28 New
                      +2
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      didn't get it?

                      Yes, the doctor didn’t help either. Then to the morgue.
                    2. Olgovich
                      Olgovich 6 May 2020 12: 55 New
                      -5
                      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                      Yes, the doctor didn’t help either. Then to the morgue.

                      US, why are you telling where you are going? belay request
            2. Pilat2009
              Pilat2009 10 May 2020 17: 47 New
              -1
              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              Is it on the Kerensky government? So the people attacked

              It wasn’t the people who attacked. The troops controlled by the Bolsheviks attacked. By and large the people are now, then in parallel. But if he knew what awaited him, maybe he would hang the Bolsheviks on the streetlights
              1. Krasnoyarsk
                Krasnoyarsk 10 May 2020 18: 14 New
                0
                Quote: Pilat2009
                Not the people attacked. The units controlled by the Bolsheviks fell

                And the troops, in your opinion, consisted of Martians, or, after all, of the citizens of the Republic of Ingushetia?
                1. Pilat2009
                  Pilat2009 10 May 2020 19: 46 New
                  0
                  Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                  And the troops, in your opinion, consisted of Martians, or, after all, of the citizens of the Republic of Ingushetia?

                  Of the Latvians, sailors and other asocial elements who succumbed to agitation. Not all the people
                  1. Krasnoyarsk
                    Krasnoyarsk 10 May 2020 22: 28 New
                    0
                    Quote: Pilat2009

                    Of the Latvians, sailors and other asocial elements who succumbed to agitation. Not all the people

                    Yes, yes, I know. These "sailors, Latvians and other asocial elements" defeated the "white army", which consisted mainly of professional officers of the tsarist army and the army of the interventionists. They were not sickly "asocial elements".
                    The Bolsheviks were a handful, but they were supported by the PEOPLE. And the people, as we know, are invincible. tongue
                  2. Pilat2009
                    Pilat2009 11 May 2020 09: 08 New
                    -1
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    The Bolsheviks were a handful, but they were supported by the PEOPLE.

                    The Bolsheviks simply mobilized the people, by force or propaganda, promising the kingdom of heaven. And against the backdrop of 200 thousand officers, the 5 million Red Army somehow turned out to be stronger. Yes, and the main industrial enterprises were behind the Bolsheviks, while whites were sitting for help from over the hill. They blocked the help and all.
                  3. Krasnoyarsk
                    Krasnoyarsk 11 May 2020 09: 34 New
                    0
                    Quote: Pilat2009
                    propaganda, having promised the kingdom of heaven. And against the background of 200 thousand officers, 5 million the Red Army somehow turned out to be stronger.

                    So what did the whites not promise "the kingdom of heaven"? Why did their propaganda turn out to be worse than that of the Reds? Maybe not worse? Or maybe the whites simply could not promise anything, except for a 12-hour working day in hard labor conditions, illness, lack of education for the broad masses and a war for someone unknown in whose interests? And the Bolsheviks promised and gave, and universal education and health care and everything else.
                    Maybe that's why the Bolsheviks have 5 million army, and the White 200 thousand?
  • AllBiBek
    AllBiBek 5 May 2020 17: 02 New
    0
    How so what?
    For example, on what basis do you unsubscribe from a whole layer of sources on the basis of an ideology that is not yours at the moment.

    "Bolshevik Sources", yes.

    Or do you think that for a century in such a science as "source study" - everything is completely sad?

    Believe me, there the corrections for the situation are a separate science in the direction of accurate ones.

    And then we know those millions who were personally raped by Stalin only Germans, and in between shootings by him personally - billions of Soviet citizens of tolerant nationalities ...
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 5 May 2020 20: 52 New
      -8
      Quote: AllBiBek
      How so what?

      what language is it in?

      Answer: - "so what?"
      Quote: AllBiBek
      For example, on what basis are you unsubscribe from the whole reservoir sources based ideologieswhich is not yours at the moment.

      Again, please write in Russian: "on what basis, on a basis that is not yours" - what is this? belay
      Quote: AllBiBek
      Or do you think that for a century in such a science as "source study" - everything is completely sad?

      What are you about? Themselves invented-themselves ... answered?
      Quote: AllBiBek
      And then we know those millions who were personally raped by Stalin only Germans, and in between executions, to them personally - billion Soviet citizens tolerant nationalities ...

      What did billions and who? belay

      again incoherent absurdity ... request ..
  • Yury Siritsky
    Yury Siritsky 6 May 2020 12: 49 New
    -1
    He knows everything directly, it’s disgusting. By the way, did you learn the history from which textbook?
  • ccsr
    ccsr 5 May 2020 11: 13 New
    11
    Quote: Olgovich
    He fought on the side of RUSSIA, on the side of the legitimate authority of the Russian state, with the goal of returning to the people the right, through the US, to determine the fate of the state itself, by force taken from him by the Bolsheviks.

    What kind of "legal power" could be in the Russian Empire after the February Revolution? You have some kind of two-faced approach - it means that overthrowing the king in one revolution is a legal act, and overthrowing those who overthrew the king in another revolution is a crime. Isn't it a shame to wriggle around in your own conclusions so as to once again spoil Soviet power? Maybe that's why you are not respected here?
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 5 May 2020 12: 44 New
      -14
      Quote: ccsr
      What kind of "legal power" could be in the Russian Empire after the February Revolution? You have some kind of two-faced approach - it means that overthrowing the king in one revolution is a legal act, and overthrowing those who overthrew the king in another revolution is a crime. Isn't it a shame to wriggle around in your own conclusions so as to once again spoil Soviet power? Maybe that's why you are not respected here?

      1. Regarding the rule of law, see higher

      2. Regarding biting the "Soviet" government: how is it herself she’s spoiled, no one else is able to: a complete collapse by 1991 (the collapse of the country, coupons for cowards, an endangered nation, etc.) utterly rotten owls. politicians for whom it’s not that the people did not stand up, but even their .... own party.

      That's the whole story!
      1. ccsr
        ccsr 5 May 2020 12: 50 New
        10
        Quote: Olgovich
        That's the whole story!

        The excuse didn’t go away - you didn’t say that after the February authorities there was legal power in Russia or not.
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 5 May 2020 13: 26 New
          -13
          Quote: ccsr
          The excuse didn’t go away - you didn’t say that after the February authorities there was legal power in Russia or not

          already written oncesee above!
  • tihonmarine
    tihonmarine 5 May 2020 09: 20 New
    +2
    Quote: avia12005
    The state is silent without ideology, and therefore there are endless opportunities to equal Denikin and Krasnov, and to glorify Mannerheim with Vlasov

    Red, or white, they fought for Russia, but you can not compare all the whites with Krasnov, Shkuro, and even more so with Vlasov. Not many betrayed their country. I met in Canada with my great-grandson and his grandmother, daughter of Adjutant Denikin. During the war, they transferred their money to the Soviet Fund in the fight against fascism.
  • Pessimist22
    Pessimist22 5 May 2020 05: 50 New
    +4
    And I thought that a patriot and a Russian officer is like V. Pikul's in "I have the honor" to serve Russia regardless of those who are in power with the motto "May Russia be exalted! May our names disappear!"
    1. carstorm 11
      carstorm 11 5 May 2020 06: 38 New
      -4
      Now it’s easy to talk about it. and judge the deeds. but let's be honest, what happened then you need to feel with your skin in order to draw conclusions. He agreed to serve. just failed.
  • Uncle lee
    Uncle lee 5 May 2020 05: 56 New
    18
    Denikin has been an implacable enemy of Soviet power and a patriot of Russia all his life! How could it coexist! Didn’t he see the development and rise of Soviet Russia under the leadership of the Bolsheviks? What could he not understand? And all his merit is that he did not conspire with the Nazis.
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 5 May 2020 06: 16 New
      +1
      Denikin has been an implacable enemy of Soviet power and a patriot of Russia all his life! How could it coexist!

      Good morning, Vladimir! hi Everything could easily coexist and coexist, because Russia and the Soviets were by no means synonymous for him. The people of his age and his formation were very well shown in His Excellency's Adjutant. General Kovalevsky performed by Vladislav Strzhelchik. A man of the kindest soul, but the Bolsheviks are a mortal enemy. And all because they belong to different worlds and will never converge. The enemy, but not (the word was blotted out, insert yourself), and the way of Shkuro and Krasnov was not unacceptable for him. Denikin is a man of honor, but Krasnov, alas, is not. request
    2. Pessimist22
      Pessimist22 5 May 2020 06: 24 New
      -1
      He did not like Soviet power, although he himself was from a proletarian family.
      1. carstorm 11
        carstorm 11 5 May 2020 06: 33 New
        0
        he is an officer and the son of an officer. also a family deeply believing in God. and was against politics in the army in general.
        1. Insurgent
          Insurgent 5 May 2020 07: 23 New
          +5
          Quote: carstorm 11
          he is an officer and the son of an officer. also a family deeply believing in God. and was against politics in the army in general.

          Nevertheless, he carried out the instructions (orders) that politicians gave him.

          An army (any), by definition, cannot be outside politics ...
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 5 May 2020 07: 56 New
            -12
            Quote: Insurgent
            Nevertheless, he carried out the instructions (orders) that politicians gave him.

            Give the orders of politicians given to the Commander-in-Chief and executed by him and their names
            1. Insurgent
              Insurgent 5 May 2020 08: 26 New
              +4
              Quote: Olgovich
              Give the orders of politicians given to the Commander-in-Chief and executed by him and their names

              Do you think that they are not, or cannot be found in the age of the Internet?

              Here is one of many orders :




              http://krym.rusarchives.ru/node/1189
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 5 May 2020 09: 49 New
                -9
                Quote: Insurgent
                Quote: Olgovich
                Give the orders of politicians given to the Commander-in-Chief and executed by him and their names

                Do you think that they are not, or cannot be found in the age of the Internet?

                Here is one of many orders :




                http://krym.rusarchives.ru/node/1189

                1. I know that they are not and that it is impossible to find what is not.

                Denikin possessed supreme power and did not obey anyone.

                2. Is this telegram an order? belay lol Who?

                3. As before, I don’t see the orders, their implementation and the politicians commanding Denikin.
          2. carstorm 11
            carstorm 11 5 May 2020 08: 12 New
            -3
            very likely. she is now out of politics. it is enough that a soldier simply cannot be a party member. campaigning prohibited. that's how it should be.
            1. Sotskiy
              Sotskiy 5 May 2020 09: 20 New
              +7
              Quote: carstorm 11
              very likely. she is now out of politics.

              Oh! lol And who then beat the tanks in the Supreme Soviet in 1993? Not otherwise, gangs?
              1. Insurgent
                Insurgent 5 May 2020 09: 25 New
                +1
                Quote: Sovetskiy
                Oh! And who then beat the tanks in the Supreme Soviet in 1993? Not otherwise, gangs?

                Short and capacious good
              2. Clerk
                Clerk 5 May 2020 10: 21 New
                -6
                Quote: Sovetskiy
                Oh! lol And who then beat the tanks in the Supreme Soviet in 1993? Not otherwise, gangs?

                You forgot to mention that those who beat the tanks before captured the Moscow City Hall and took everyone hostage there, attacked the police and internal troops on the Garden Ring and rioted there, and when they crushed the Interior Ministry officers and seized their vehicles with weapons, they besieged The Ostankino television center is like a medieval castle (even the gates rammed). After all this, no matter what peaceful slogans the supporters of the Supreme Council were hiding - they were real gangs, because in order to preserve their power, the communists with the twin Nazis and their supporters were ready to step over the corpses of their compatriots and start a new civil war.
                1. strannik1985
                  strannik1985 5 May 2020 10: 25 New
                  0
                  After all this, no matter what peaceful slogans supporters of the Supreme Council

                  A strange claim, power structures, if you are about them, if necessary, must step over the corpses. Forced change of power by the legislation of the USSR is not provided.
                  1. Clerk
                    Clerk 5 May 2020 11: 16 New
                    -1
                    Quote: strannik1985
                    A strange claim, power structures, if you are about them, if necessary, must step over the corpses.

                    Aw, don't lie! Power structures (Moscow Region, Ministry of Internal Affairs, Ministry of Security) were on the side of the newly formed Russian Federation and the president. Supporters of the Supreme Council are communist fanatics. There were very few security officers there - and for the most part they were retired: with the exception of Makashev, the rest were mostly Afghan veterans.

                    Quote: strannik1985
                    Forced change of power by the legislation of the USSR is not provided.

                    The USSR no longer existed for about two years - and what is its current legislation, if the Russian Federation already existed?

                    Violent actions were launched by the Supreme Council and its fanatical supporters when the president issued order No. 1400 on his dissolution to create a parliament in which all factions, not just communists and nationalists, would be represented. So it was the Communists who were the first to shed the blood of compatriots, and not the supporters of the president.

                    Yeah, it means that a violent change of power, if this is not a Soviet power, is welcomed by the communists in every possible way, but when they are displaced, it immediately begins "by law is not provided. Double standarts?
                2. Sotskiy
                  Sotskiy 5 May 2020 10: 48 New
                  +4
                  Quote: clerk
                  After all this, no matter what peaceful slogans the supporters of the Supreme Council were hiding - they were real gangs, because in order to preserve their power, the communists with the twin Nazis and their supporters were ready to step over the corpses of their compatriots and start a new civil war.

                  Do not recall what preceded these events and what decree No. 1400?

                  Quote: clerk
                  because for the sake of preserving their power, the communists with the twin Nazis and their supporters were ready to step over the corpses of compatriots and start a new civil war.

                  Aren't you excited about the "spike"? You are a nice person, probably underestimate that situation. If the communists were really ready to step over the "corpses of compatriots", the Yeltsinists would self-destruct within a week. Remind me how your democrats sat on their suitcases waiting for "guests"?
                  1. Clerk
                    Clerk 5 May 2020 11: 49 New
                    -5
                    Quote: Sovetskiy
                    Do not recall what preceded these events and what decree No. 1400?

                    The union fell apart, Russia became a sovereign country. In its composition, rudiments of the Soviet era that were not relevant to the challenge of time and current realities remained valid. All this began to be put in order, to get rid of remnants and archaisms. There were those who desperately clung to power, opposed the course of history and tried to reverse it. For the sake of this, they raised a local rebellion. Here is such a brief retelling.

                    Decree No. 1400? Decree on the dissolution of the Supreme Council. The country was already a sovereign, not a Soviet republic. The Supreme Council was needed by the country as a dead poultice. In addition, the people sitting there were in every possible way opposed to any changes in the country and did not let anyone do anything. So they dissolved him, and instead of him they created the State Duma.

                    Quote: Sovetskiy
                    Aren't you excited about the "spike"?

                    Who was in the White House? There were mainly so-called. "Unity" - i.e. representatives of the Communist Party of the Russian Federation, "Agrarian Union", as well as the "Fatherland" faction of communist radicals of all stripes / military junta with the "Russia" faction - an association of communist and nationalist parties. When nationalism and socialism / communism unite, what happens? Either National Bolshevism, or National Socialism (just like Hitler), or some other related trend. Add to this the radicals and the military - you get a direct thermonuclear mixture!

                    Quote: Sovetskiy
                    If the communists were really ready to step over the "corpses of compatriots", the Yeltsinists would self-destruct within a week.

                    As far as I remember, supporters of the Supreme Council were so determined that they even attacked law enforcement officers, taking away their weapons and vehicles. There were killed Interior Ministry officers, their spilled blood. When did the communists shell the telecentre from RPG-7? Isn't that step over corpses?
                    Be calm for the Yeltsinists - they were preparing to meet you fully armed. Almost all of Moscow was against the commies.

                    Quote: Sovetskiy
                    Remind me how your democrats sat on their suitcases waiting for "guests"?

                    Could it be more specific to say exactly who was sitting on the suitcases? Nervous and faint-hearted? So this is a certain part of the total number of supporters of the Russian Federation was, and not the vast majority. Most participated in the siege of the Supreme Council and the Lyuli weighed you after it was taken - even the besieging soldiers had to protect you so that they wouldn’t beat you hard!
                    1. Sotskiy
                      Sotskiy 5 May 2020 12: 16 New
                      +4
                      Quote: clerk
                      In its composition, rudiments of the Soviet era that were not relevant to the challenge of time and current realities remained valid.

                      Ay, what a beauty! Just like that, "not corresponding to the challenge of the times and current realities" to the Coup or what?belay lol
                      So what then are the claims to the Bolsheviks in 1917, when power was generally lying underfoot?
                      By the way, what was the Constitutional Court's decision on this decree 1400? Or is the Constitutional Court of the Russian Federation also "a rudiment of the Soviet era"? laughing
                      1. The comment was deleted.
                      2. Sotskiy
                        Sotskiy 5 May 2020 13: 19 New
                        +7
                        Quote: clerk
                        I understand that for you "Reich" is eternity

                        My dear, you didn’t go too far? For such words, you can rattle in the ban.
                        Quote: clerk
                        How “good” was the Soviet power if the army, militia, internal troops and special forces later turned away from it?

                        You certainly lived in the Union? Until 1985, I don’t remember that they dreamed of independence. I remember that at that time there was one reformer who made everyone sick, I recall that he was also the General Secretary of the CPSU, with the subsequent transfer, well, the purely Soviet post of President of the USSR. lol So did not his "reforms" become the catalyst for the subsequent general separatism?
                      3. Clerk
                        Clerk 5 May 2020 18: 22 New
                        -5
                        Quote: Sovetskiy
                        My dear, you didn’t go too far? For such words, you can rattle in the ban.

                        What are you saying! And what was boorish, offensive? Please answer, I think it will not bother you. Or maybe you want to show your true nature of homo sovieticus - similar to when an ignorant Neanderthal pounces with an club on everything unknown and promising danger, you pounce on everything that runs counter to your only true communist beliefs?
                        You probably just do not know that from the Germanic "Fuhrer" and from the Italian "Duce" are translated into the great and mighty as "leader". Was Stalin the "Leader"? And Brezhnev, after Khrushchev, tried to follow in Stalin's footsteps. So draw your conclusions.
                        Specifically for you, I recall that the site is Russian, not Soviet.

                        Quote: Sovetskiy
                        I remember, then there was one reformer that made everyone sick

                        Soviet citizens were sick of all their leaders. No wonder their funeral was popularly called "carriage races".

                        Quote: Sovetskiy
                        So did not his "reforms" become the catalyst for the subsequent general separatism?

                        "Who is the last one and daddy" - is that what you think? And nothing that at the dawn of the formation of the Union of the republics joined it not of their own free will, but through the militarized "establishment of Soviet power" in them? Is it okay that Stalin thought of transferring Nagorno-Karabakh, inhabited by Orthodox Armenians, to the Muslim Azerbaijan? Or the Foothill region of Ingushetia as part of North Ossetia? And to deport all Chechens from Chechnya to the Kazakh steppes and liquidate the republic, creating the Grozny region from it - did he even think about the consequences? The union began to disintegrate even before Gorbachev fussed with his projects "Union of Soviet Sovereign Republics" and "Union of Sovereign States" - this was his attempt to keep the union republics with similar handouts, even though in the form of a confederation. It is possible to blame him for the fact that the republics of the RSFSR - Tatarstan, Checheno-Ingushetia, North Ossetia, Bashkartostan and others - became sovereign republics like Ukraine or Kyrgyzstan under these damned projects.
                  2. Clerk
                    Clerk 6 May 2020 10: 31 New
                    0
                    Quote: Sovetskiy
                    So what then are the claims to the Bolsheviks in 1917, when power was generally lying underfoot?

                    The claims to the Bolsheviks are as follows:
                    1). Lenin's close ties with the German General Staff, his assistance to him so that in Russia with his comrades-in-arms he would create confusion and lead the country out of the First World War. It is funny that the dubious connections of Denikin and other whites with foreigners cause you severe condemnation, but the fact that Lenin before and during the war received support from the Germans is that you miss your eyes and ears;
                    2). Read the programs of the Cadets and Socialist-Revolutionaries - there is everything that later the Bolsheviks and Communists passed off as their own: an 8-hour working day with a 5-day working week, a pension, free health care and universal compulsory education, protection of workers' rights, and so on. And they tried to achieve this in a natural, "evolutionary" way, and not by dictatorship. However, the Bolsheviks staged a civil war, seized power alone, eliminated all their opponents, and appropriated their programs and passed them off as their own - posthumously defeating opponents at the same time and denouncing them as enemies of the people.
                    3). In 1917, the Reds fought a civil, fratricidal war. In 93, the first blood was shed again by the Reds, not by the President’s supporters. And the Reds were ready to arrange a civil war in 93 again - they just couldn’t capture Ostankino just so that it broke out throughout the country.

                    Quote: Sovetskiy
                    By the way, what was the Constitutional Court's decision on this decree 1400? Or is the Constitutional Court of the Russian Federation also "a rudiment of the Soviet era"?

                    The Constitutional Court acted within the framework of the laws of states that did not exist by that time for 2 years already - the USSR and the RSFSR. There was already the Russian Federation. And the court considered its decision on decree No. 1400 on the basis of the Brezhnev Constitution of 78, which did not provide for such Yeltsin actions. According to it, if I'm not mistaken, the RSFSR was a Soviet republic. Only now the RSFSR was no longer - there was the Russian Federation - a presidential republic, within which the governing bodies of the previous state had not yet been completely liquidated and a new constitution had not been chosen. In addition, Yeltsin was supported by the whole of Moscow, the country and all the power structures - the Ministry of Defense, the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the Ministry of Defense (This indicates how "good" Soviet power was if none of the true patriots of their country - the siloviki - except for a handful of veterans of Afghanistan, Transnistria or Abkhazia did not defend her). Therefore, his decision was essentially nothing. You yourself probably do not recognize the relatively recent (like February) decision of the Constitutional Court not to recognize the Russian Federation as the successor of the repressive and totalitarian regime of the USSR? Here and here with the decision of COP 93 the same way!
                  3. ccsr
                    ccsr 6 May 2020 11: 44 New
                    +6
                    Quote: clerk
                    3). In 1917, the Reds fought a civil, fratricidal war.

                    At least you don't lie in it - the Civil War began later, and they arranged it after the White Terror began against the leaders of the new government.
                  4. Clerk
                    Clerk 6 May 2020 15: 14 New
                    -3
                    Well, here I agree, he wrote in haste the 17th year and did not even notice this. Of course, the civilian began a little later. But then you are already wrong, because the civil one began when the Bolsheviks dispersed the Constituent Assembly and created a one-party political system led by themselves. The terror of the White Bolshevik leaders is already a consequence of the dispersal of the US and the creation of the one-party by the Bolsheviks, and not the reason for the beginning of the civil. So you are lying.
                    What is the rest of my lies?
                  5. ccsr
                    ccsr 6 May 2020 18: 14 New
                    +1
                    Quote: clerk
                    because civil began with the fact that the Bolsheviks dispersed the Constituent Assembly

                    The constituent assembly in the sense as the Orthodox people understood it then could not take place - the king was overthrown in the country, and this is not only a coup d'etat, but also a shock for believers, because the tsar played a huge role in our Orthodoxy.
                    It was not for nothing that he was canonized as a martyr - so what kind of congregation could then be spoken about if the country was in discord?
                    Quote: clerk
                    The terror of the White Bolshevik leaders is already a consequence of the dispersal of the US and the creation of the one-party by the Bolsheviks, and not the reason for the beginning of the civil. So you are lying.

                    I’m not lying, it’s you just don’t know how the enemies of the Soviet regime were released from prisons on parole and no measures were taken towards them.
                  6. Clerk
                    Clerk 7 May 2020 01: 00 New
                    0
                    Quote: ccsr
                    The constituent assembly in the sense as the Orthodox people understood it then could not take place - the king was overthrown in the country, and this is not only a coup d'etat, but also a shock for believers, because the tsar played a huge role in our Orthodoxy.

                    You yourself now understand what kind of nonsense you have frozen? And who then was the “All-Russian Constituent Assembly,” which existed from 17 until the moment of its dispersal by the Bolsheviks, consisting of Cadets, Socialist-Revolutionaries, Mensheviks, Bolsheviks, Socialists, Social Democrats and representatives of other political trends?

                    Quote: ccsr
                    I’m not lying, it’s you just don’t know how the enemies of the Soviet regime were released from prisons on parole and no measures were taken towards them.

                    I don’t understand: why are you trying to hang noodles on my ears like a small child? What are you trying to tell me tales about if even the Khrushchev’s rehabilitation of the repressed people like you at the present time causes burning pain below your back?
                  7. ccsr
                    ccsr 7 May 2020 12: 24 New
                    +1
                    Quote: clerk
                    And who then was the “All-Russian Constituent Assembly,” which existed from 17 until the moment of its dispersal by the Bolsheviks, consisting of Cadets, Socialist-Revolutionaries, Mensheviks, Bolsheviks, Socialists, Social Democrats and representatives of other political trends?

                    An almshouse, like the current Duma, where Putin decides everything, United Russia supports its decisions, and clowns like Zhirinovsky at a dance.
                    Quote: clerk
                    I don’t understand: why are you trying to hang noodles on my ears like a small child?

                    In fact, it’s useless to explain something serious to you - you have a mindset not of Soviet sourdough, so you carry nonsense with a smart look, not understanding the essence of the phenomena. Now there are such experts on political shows TV a dime a dozen, but truly competent ones.
                    Quote: clerk
                    Is Khrushchev’s rehabilitation for those who are repressed for you at the present time causing burning pain lower than your back?

                    Why do you think so? Under Stalin, people were convicted illegally, for which they then shot the leaders of the NKVD, so Khrushchev had to restore historical justice. But this does not mean that all repressed were illegally convicted. For example, Tukhachevsky for his art in the field of weapons had to be shot immediately, and the war proved it.
                  8. Clerk
                    Clerk 7 May 2020 18: 15 New
                    0
                    Quote: ccsr
                    An almshouse, like the current Duma, where Putin decides everything, United Russia supports its decisions, and clowns like Zhirinovsky at a dance.

                    It is clear that all who are not red are clowns and nonsense for you. Tolley is your helmsman!

                    Quote: ccsr
                    In fact, it’s useless to explain something serious to you - you have a mindset not of Soviet sourdough, so you carry nonsense with a smart look, not understanding the essence of the phenomena.

                    He is the Soviet hegemon - he knows everything, knows everything and is the bearer of the Only True Opinion. Moreover, all who disagree with him are the mistakes of nature.

                    Quote: ccsr
                    Why do you think so? Under Stalin, people were convicted illegally, for which they then shot the leaders of the NKVD, so Khrushchev had to restore historical justice. But this does not mean that all repressed were illegally convicted. For example, Tukhachevsky for his art in the field of weapons had to be shot immediately, and the war proved it.

                    Disingenuous. Those who were really punished for the case were just a tiny fraction of the repressed. This is about how, in order to eliminate one terrorist, you need to drop an atomic bomb on an entire populous city. As the abbot of the Cistercian monastery of Sito said in the Middle Ages: "Kill everyone, the Lord will recognize his own" - so what?
                  9. ccsr
                    ccsr 7 May 2020 18: 23 New
                    +3
                    Quote: clerk
                    It is clear that all who are not red are clowns and nonsense for you. Tolley is your helmsman!

                    I am not a member of any party, so past the box office.
                    Quote: clerk
                    He is the Soviet hegemon - he knows everything, knows everything and is the bearer of the Only True Opinion.

                    The hegemon managed in 91, so by definition he could not be the bearer of what opinion for those who ruled the country. They themselves decided what to do in the interests of the hegemon, but ran into ingratitude.
                    Quote: clerk
                    Slyly. Those who were really punished for the case were simply a tiny fraction of the repressed.

                    You do not know these data, and therefore I am not going to take your words for granted. Although my mother’s uncle was completely rehabilitated and even restored to the party, although he had not been alive for a long time by this time.
                  10. Clerk
                    Clerk 7 May 2020 19: 29 New
                    -1
                    Quote: ccsr
                    I am not a member of any party, so past the box office.

                    Really. You are just a pathetic propagandist.

                    Quote: ccsr
                    The hegemon managed in 91, so by definition he could not be the bearer of what opinion for those who ruled the country. They themselves decided what to do in the interests of the hegemon, but ran into ingratitude.

                    Since, unlike me, you have a Soviet mentality, it means you and the hegemon.

                    Quote: ccsr
                    You do not know this data

                    Why do you think so?
                  11. ccsr
                    ccsr 8 May 2020 11: 22 New
                    +2
                    Quote: clerk
                    Since, unlike me, you have a Soviet mentality, it means you and the hegemon.

                    Class - I couldn’t even think of such a thing. I even didn’t belong to the hegemon in the days of the USSR, but your train of thought does not amaze me anymore, because you cannot hear such a set of lies from everyone.
                    Quote: clerk

                    Why do you think so?

                    From the fact that you do not have them, otherwise you would have cited the data.
                  12. Clerk
                    Clerk 8 May 2020 14: 53 New
                    0
                    Quote: ccsr
                    Class - I couldn’t even think of such a thing.

                    Did I mention "class" somewhere in the text? It is already from what you have written that it occurred to you!

                    Quote: ccsr
                    From the fact that you do not have them, otherwise you would have cited the data.

                    Ohhh, well then you will have to wait a bit while I prepare the material.
                  13. ccsr
                    ccsr 8 May 2020 15: 36 New
                    +1
                    Quote: clerk
                    Did I mention "class" somewhere in the text?

                    You are definitely not Russian - when you say "Class", it means not the social structure, but admiration, either from the joy of communication, or from the stupidity of the interlocutor.
                    Quote: clerk
                    Well then, you will have to wait a bit while I prepare the material.

                    I look forward to your opus - the paper will endure everything.
                  14. Clerk
                    Clerk 8 May 2020 16: 10 New
                    +1
                    Quote: ccsr
                    You are definitely not Russian - when you say "Class", it means not the social structure, but admiration, either from the joy of communication, or from the stupidity of the interlocutor.

                    But who knows what is on your mind? Am I your telepath to know what you meant?

                    Quote: ccsr
                    I look forward to your opus - the paper will endure everything.

                    Done.
  • carstorm 11
    carstorm 11 5 May 2020 12: 01 New
    -6
    firstly I said NOW. not 30 years ago. secondly, they beat them, following the order of their superiors. his disagreement can be expressed simply by executing a report. and as a civilian it is later to go and defend this Supreme Council.
  • Ryaruav
    Ryaruav 5 May 2020 10: 07 New
    -5
    the white officers before the revolution overwhelmingly lived on military allowance and did not eat land, newspapers, ships. I think they went to the white army because of the Brest peace, just at that time there was a massive increase in the number of white
  • ccsr
    ccsr 5 May 2020 11: 32 New
    12
    Quote: carstorm 11
    he is an officer and the son of an officer. also a family deeply believing in God. and was against politics in the army in general.

    This still cannot fully characterize this historical figure, which even in the current realities looks doubtful from the point of view of his position in Russian society of that time. Firstly, he was considered an upstart in an officer environment and was never considered an outstanding commander during his service in the Republic of Ingushetia. Secondly, he was not rich and his grandfather was a serf, and not the centuries-old history of a noble service family, which is why he was considered a plebeian among officers in the same Imperial Army. Thirdly, he also had personal grievances - this is well known from the incident during his studies, and his career growth in power would hardly have been a success if there hadn't been a Civil War. Fourth, the very defeat of the White Army dealt a severe blow to his psychology, because it turned out that his general talents were unsuitable at such a difficult moment in the history of our state. In general, a person turned out to be demoralized and thrown to the sidelines of history, which is why emigration was so ambiguous to him, and did not believe him. I’m not going to blame anything or extol this person’s fate, but against the background of serving the Fatherland the same Shaposhnikov or Karbyshev, he doesn’t look very beautiful in our history, although of course the events of the Civil War are connected with his name. And in conclusion, I will give only a small text from what was previously written in VO so that the romantic fleur would disappear about this person:
    In the summer of 1946, 73-year-old General Anton Ivanovich Denikin, who by then lived in the USA, sent a letter to US President Harry Truman. In it, Anton Ivanovich Denikin returned to the old and battered question, which he had forgotten somewhat during the war — to the confrontation of Bolshevism. "Patriot" Anton Ivanovich outlined in a letter his recommendations to the West to contain the Soviet Union and its political expansion in Europe and the world as a whole. That is, the general refused to cooperate with the Nazis, but as soon as Germany was defeated, he immediately became a volunteer consultant to the United States on confronting the Soviet Union.

    https://topwar.ru/155269-kak-denikin-daval-ssha-sovety-po-borbe-s-sssr.html
    So he loved our country, that he was ready to become a consultant to the Americans on what facilities to deliver nuclear strikes in the USSR.
    1. Octopus
      Octopus 5 May 2020 13: 31 New
      -6
      Quote: ccsr
      So he loved our country, that he was ready to become a consultant to the Americans on what facilities to deliver nuclear strikes in the USSR.

      Well, actually the link retelling Comrade. Polonsky famous letters from the adm archive. Lekhi, of a rather dubious authorization (starting from the way he found this letter in this archive, and not in the archive of the president).
      However, in the text of the letter, long published by the liberals in the official journal of the RF Ministry of Defense, there is no talk of any nuclear strikes, and even more so of no consultations with Denikin.
      https://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/4399991.html

      Congratulations to you, Mr. Sovramshi.

      A number of things should be noted:
      1. The main occupation of Denikin in the period under review was writing letters to Sportloto. He is nobody and there is no way to call him. In those cases when it was not the addressees, of course, of his messages, but the clerks from their offices considered it necessary to write him an answer, this was indicated directly.

      2. In Denikin’s letter, everything is written not so much true (although much is true), as in accordance with official papers, the Department of State, which after Roosevelt redirected itself to anti-Sovietism. First of all, the Kennan doctrine, of course. Which greatly reduces the intellectual value of his work.
      1. ccsr
        ccsr 5 May 2020 13: 50 New
        +6
        Quote: Octopus
        Well, actually the link retelling Comrade. Polonsky famous letters from the adm archive. Lahi, a rather dubious authorization

        Let's say this is a provocation, but who would become its beneficiary in the West? Its meaning is, especially since this document is not from the archives of the CPSU Central Committee. Tell us in more detail where these documents came from.
        Quote: Octopus
        However, in the text of the letter, long published by the liberals in the official journal of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, no nuclear strikes

        Denikin as a professional could not help but appreciate the nuclear weapons of the Americans - it’s only people like you who cannot immediately understand what military professionals understood immediately, especially in 1946.
        Quote: Octopus
        and moreover, there is no question of any consultations with Denikin on this issue.

        His initiative was considered undeserving of attention, and did not see any sense in him, after many Soviet prisoners of war and Vlasov began to cooperate with the Americans, fearing return to the USSR.
        Quote: Octopus
        Congratulations to you, Mr. Sovramshi.

        This scam will not work - you have no evidence that this letter was concocted by US intelligence agencies. And even the author of LJ did not present anything proving that it was a fake, so you are a miserable liar trying to refute the article of 1946.
        Quote: Octopus
        A number of things should be noted:
        1. The main occupation of Denikin in the period under review was writing letters to Sportloto. He is nobody and there is no way to call him.

        Tell this to Shushkevich and Gorbachev, who entered into a polemic about the causes of the collapse of the USSR.
        Quote: Octopus
        Which greatly reduces the intellectual value of his work.

        The question is not in its value, but in how he treated the USSR after such a bloody war, and why this "patriot" suddenly decided to turn to the Americans, and not to Stalin, in order to unite the emigrants to help rebuild the country.
        1. Octopus
          Octopus 5 May 2020 14: 27 New
          -6
          Quote: ccsr
          Let's say this is a provocation, but who would become its beneficiary in the West?

          It's not about whether it is a provocation or not. Denikin and his opinion in itself are not interesting to anyone, except for the White emigre crowd. The point is that this card was in the suit of the "realistic" part of the then State Department, and Denikin's comments on this initiative were not preserved.
          Quote: ccsr
          Denikin as a professional could not help but appreciate the nuclear weapons of the Americans

          In the text of the letter there is not a word about nuclear attacks on the USSR. Moreover, an absurd plan is proposed, which does not imply such attacks.
          Quote: ccsr
          This scam won't work

          What it suddenly does not pass.

          The original letter of Denikin or not, but this
          Quote: ccsr
          he was ready to become a consultant to the Americans on what facilities to deliver nuclear strikes in the USSR.

          in the text published in the VIZH no. Moreover, there is not a word about the use of nuclear weapons against the USSR.
          Quote: ccsr
          Tell this to Shushkevich and Gorbachev, who entered into a polemic about the causes of the collapse of the USSR.

          If they had conducted this controversy in the year 46, this could have been relevant to the issue under discussion.
          Quote: ccsr
          and why this "patriot" suddenly decided to turn to the Americans, and not to Stalin, in order to unite the emigrants to help rebuild the country.

          Because while Comrade Stalin was alive, no restoration of the country was supposed. This seems to be quite obvious. For Denikin, for sure.
          Quote: ccsr
          His initiative was deemed undeserving,

          WW3 planning is the business of the General Staff, at that time Eisenhower, and not the Russian-speaking columnist from France.
          Quote: ccsr
          after many Soviet prisoners of war and Vlasov began to cooperate with the Americans, fearing return to the USSR.

          In fact, most of this asset, who did not manage to scatter, was transferred to the USSR by the Americans. Not only that, Denikin, who wrote about this in League of Leaf Reforms Eisenhower received from the apparatus of the latter the answer that no one was going to sort out the Russian varieties.

          Actually, this is the result and result of the work of the White Cases in general, and Denikin in particular in exile.
          1. ccsr
            ccsr 5 May 2020 18: 55 New
            +5
            Quote: Octopus
            It's not about provocation or not. Denikin and his opinion in itself are of no interest to anyone except the white emigre party.

            So you do not deny the authenticity of the letter? So who is the liar here?
            Quote: Octopus
            and Denikin’s comments on this initiative did not survive.

            The letter could be negotiated as confidential, and therefore was not commented on.
            Quote: Octopus
            In the text of the letter there is not a word about nuclear attacks on the USSR.

            For you this is a difficultly predicted event, and professionals perfectly understood why he turned to those who possessed these weapons, and not to the UK or France, for example. Naturally, in such a letter, he could not write down the details of the future US doctrine - apparently you are simply inadequately evaluating his proposal from the point of view of implementation.

            Quote: Octopus
            Moreover, there is not a word about the use of nuclear weapons against the USSR.

            It was assumed based on the methods of using nuclear weapons against the USSR - all plans of that period indicated objects for its use on our territory.

            Quote: Octopus
            Because while Comrade Stalin was alive, no restoration of the country was supposed. This seems to be quite obvious.

            They began to rebuild the country during the war - there is plenty of evidence for this.

            Quote: Octopus
            Actually, this is the result and result of the work of the White Cases in general, and Denikin in particular in exile.

            The point is not in the results, but in how he continued to hate the Soviet people, and went on to offer himself to be an adviser to the American military - this is best said by what kind of "patriot" he is of our Motherland.
            1. Octopus
              Octopus 6 May 2020 02: 48 New
              -3
              Quote: ccsr
              So you do not deny the authenticity of the letter?

              I do not doubt that there is such a document. He looks rather strange, Denikin doesn’t authorize him, but he doesn’t particularly contradict his post-war statements, so we conditionally accept.
              Quote: ccsr
              So who is the liar here?

              You, of course. You wrote here about the White Guard Dropshot, it wasn’t blown away by the wind.
              Quote: ccsr
              apparently you are simply inadequately evaluating his proposal in terms of implementation.

              Quote: ccsr
              It was assumed based on the methods

              Appending a letter to Denikin to Truman is a rather funny thing, probably. Shaggy probably increased.

              The only thing that makes sense to discuss in relation to this document is how it ended up in Lehi's archive.
              Quote: ccsr
              There is plenty of evidence for this.

              You are wrong to offend Comrade Stalin. There is plenty of evidence that it was not more important for a young Soviet country than the development of AB and delivery vehicles. Usually people of your views are proud of it. And battleships, battleships again appeared on the horizon, damn them, pr 24, 66, 82, the latter are already on the stocks,
              Quote: ccsr
              It’s not about the results, but about how he continued to hate the Soviet people,

              The fact is that the differences between Russian and Soviet Mr. Eisenhower were not interesting for a while, and such figures as Denikin helped to permanently and permanently remove this issue from the agenda.
              1. ccsr
                ccsr 6 May 2020 11: 40 New
                +3
                Quote: Octopus
                You, of course. You wrote here about the White Guard Dropshot, it wasn’t blown away by the wind.

                This is the logic of armed struggle - you are simply far from understanding military affairs, hence the misunderstanding of my words.
                Quote: Octopus
                Appending a letter to Denikin to Truman is a rather funny thing, probably.

                You simply do not know how to read between the lines - for this a certain experience is needed, which is why you cannot understand the whole essence of the letter, and what is hidden behind it.
                Quote: Octopus
                You are wrong to offend Comrade Stalin.

                On the contrary, I respect the leader of the peoples, so do not attribute to me your fantasies.
                Quote: Octopus
                And battleships, battleships again appeared on the horizon, damn them, pr 24, 66, 82,

                In fact, battleships were laid before 1941, but the war prevented. So this is not an argument - military construction is based on scientific forecasts of a future war.

                Quote: Octopus
                and such figures as Denikin,

                Regarding Denikin, I have already expressed my opinion - he is far from our hero and not a patriot, as some figures of the current flood are trying to put him out.
                1. Octopus
                  Octopus 6 May 2020 11: 52 New
                  -2
                  Quote: ccsr
                  hence the misunderstanding of my words.

                  So it Yours the words?
                  Didn’t you ascribe Yours words to Denikin?
                  Quote: ccsr
                  he was ready to become a consultant to the Americans on what facilities to deliver nuclear strikes in the USSR.

                  No, you did not write this?
                  Quote: ccsr
                  You just can't read between the lines

                  And I’m not going to. Unlike you, I do not pass off my fantasies as the words of other people. I am trying to indicate where the facts are, and where are my altistorical ideas, and not bear the blizzard, which is written between the lines of the VIZH.
                  Quote: ccsr
                  In fact, battleships were laid before 1941, but the war prevented.

                  Yes, yes, and I about the same. The war prevented the peace-loving Soviet state from preparing for war with the sea powers. Scientific forecasts from the Institute of Scientific Communism.
                  Quote: ccsr
                  he is far from our hero and not a patriot, as some figures of the current flood are trying to expose him.

                  He can be both a hero and a patriot. But not a politician. So he was out of place.
                2. ccsr
                  ccsr 6 May 2020 12: 30 New
                  +2
                  Quote: Octopus
                  And didn’t you ascribe your words to Denikin?

                  At that time, one country owned nuclear weapons, and Denikin was a military specialist in Russia, because he connected his whole life with the army, and monitored the situation in the USSR. Or do you think that the Americans against the USSR would not use nuclear weapons for humane purposes?
                  Quote: Octopus
                  Yes, yes, and I about the same. The war prevented the peace-loving Soviet state from preparing for war with the sea powers. Scientific forecasts from the Institute of Scientific Communism.

                  Military science dealt with these forecasts, so past the cash register.
                  Quote: Octopus
                  He can be both a hero and a patriot.

                  This is doubtful, even based on the results of the Civil.
                  Quote: Octopus
                  But not a politician.

                  So he chose his own path, so this is not an argument to whitewash him.
                3. Octopus
                  Octopus 6 May 2020 12: 42 New
                  -2
                  Quote: ccsr
                  Or do you think that the Americans against the USSR would not use nuclear weapons for humane purposes?

                  What the Americans would use there is their American business. Denikin in his alleged letter gives advice of a completely different plan. I’m not ready to accept your idea that it was Denikin who taught the Americans to attack the USSR, and it would never have occurred to them themselves.
                  Quote: ccsr
                  These predictions were made by military science,

                  Military science curtailed all projects on LC immediately after the death of Stalin. The idea that there is nothing more important than AB (despite the fact that the USSR had delivery vehicles in the 63rd) also does not apply to military science.
                  Quote: ccsr
                  based even on the results of the Civil.

                  The results of the war show who won it, and not who was a hero and patriot there. It's a little strange to explain it.
                4. ccsr
                  ccsr 6 May 2020 12: 58 New
                  +2
                  Quote: Octopus
                  Denikin in his alleged letter gives advice of a completely different plan.

                  Teaches them global politics - well, well ...
                  Quote: Octopus
                  Military science curtailed all projects on LC immediately after the death of Stalin.

                  This is not so - all work under Khrushchev was curtailed. But nonetheless, aircraft carriers began to develop later.
                  Quote: Octopus
                  The results of the war show who won it, and not who was a hero and patriot there.

                  The enemy’s behavior in the war can cause respect - for example, the attitude towards our military in Japanese captivity in the early twentieth century after the end of the Russo-Japanese war. By the way, then none of our people stayed abroad in protest against the tsarist regime, although some were threatened with punishment for defeat.
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 5 May 2020 07: 35 New
    -9
    Quote: Uncle Lee
    Denikin has been an implacable enemy of Soviet power and a patriot of Russia all his life! How could it coexist!

    Who brought the country to disaster 91 , the extinction of the fastest growing Russian peopleto the borders of the 17th century? Denikins? belay

    But the power that solely ruled and led to this, can not be a patriot.

    And vice versa.

    What is incomprehensible? belay
  • Octopus
    Octopus 5 May 2020 11: 17 New
    -1
    Quote: Uncle Lee
    Didn’t he see the development and rise of Soviet Russia under the leadership of the Bolsheviks?

    Of course I did. I saw how almost all of Russia, taken by the Bolsheviks, was fighting with a small piece of the former Russia, the VKF. The result spoke for itself.

    And not one Denikin saw it.
  • Pilat2009
    Pilat2009 10 May 2020 17: 51 New
    0
    Quote: Uncle Lee
    Didn’t he see the development and rise of Soviet Russia under the leadership of the Bolsheviks?

    He saw what he saw, but he also saw repression. In general, they put it cool against the wall. For example, they sent to Siberia under the tsar. However, the bloody tsarist regime
  • apro
    apro 5 May 2020 06: 06 New
    12
    And I thought why there are no portraits of the Verkhonny Commander-in-Chief in the Great Patriotic War at official events anywhere. And they are preparing a place for Denikin. Thanks to his genius, the Soviet Nazis won ..... it was he who organized the white emigration so much that a bunch of talkers turned from the military community and he helped the country that he didn’t see.
    The author is well done ... enlightened in his old age. Who is the main character here.
    1. carstorm 11
      carstorm 11 5 May 2020 06: 20 New
      -10
      why juggle? who is talking about his genius and other nonsense? he just did what he thought was right. it is in your opinion not worthy of respect? I recall that in March 1917 he was called to Petrograd by the Minister of War of the new revolutionary government Alexander Guchkov, from whom he received an offer to become chief of staff under the newly appointed Supreme Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Army, General Mikhail Alekseev. Being freed from the oath by Nicholas II, he accepted the proposal of the new government. On April 5, 1917, he took office, in which he worked for more than a month and a half, having worked well with Alekseev. After Alekseev was removed from his post and replaced by General Brusilov, he refused to be his chief of staff and on May 31 (June 13) 1917 was transferred to the post of commander of the armies of the Western Front. In the spring of 1917, at a military congress in Mogilev, he was sharply criticized by Kerensky’s policy aimed at democratizing the army. At a meeting of the Headquarters on July 16, 1917, he advocated the abolition of committees in the army and the removal of politics from the army.
  • unknown
    unknown 5 May 2020 06: 49 New
    -17
    What development under the leadership of the Bolsheviks can we talk about?
    The Great October Zionist Revolution is an "orange revolution" funded by US financial circles. On the spot, in Russia, the leadership of this project was carried out by the Communist International.
    It was possible to push back the Commintern, and then for a very short time, only to Stalin. After his murder, Khrushchev continued the Commintern policy, which ultimately killed the USSR.
    1. Pushkar
      Pushkar 5 May 2020 16: 00 New
      +3
      Quote: ignoto
      What development under the leadership of the Bolsheviks can we talk about?

      The average annual GDP growth of the USSR from 1922 to 1956 was 15%. In 1913, Russia was the seventh economy of Europe, in 1982 - the second, and perhaps the first, world economy.
  • bober1982
    bober1982 5 May 2020 06: 53 New
    -1
    The article is both curious and amazing.
    Denikin was a liberal to the core, and in my opinion, he was not as sincere as he is represented, including in the article. By the way, he was rather vague in nature, and he scandalized everyone and everywhere - in the gymnasium, academy , in the army, with the king, with the Minister of War, with Wrangel and Krasnov, etc.
    Krasnov was an anti-Semite (in the current language) and a monarchist until his mind became confused. To understand all the behavior and actions of Ataman Krasnov, we can give an example with Ataman Annenkov, who in the pre-revolutionary period commanded one of the squadrons in the Krasnov regiment and was his favorite.
    Being in exile, Krasnov, closely watched the bloody adventures of his favorite, as far as this of course was possible. And Krasnov made such a conclusion - he (Annenkov) lost his mind. Something similar can be said about Krasnov, who was ruined by some kind of fierce hatred of the Bolsheviks, which Denikin did not have.
  • igorra
    igorra 5 May 2020 08: 20 New
    +7
    The author remembered the crunch of French rolls? Russia is the people that inhabit it, and if the people decide that its elite is rotten and does not need it, then that is what it should be. Denikin went against his people and he wanted or did not want intervention, but he fought against it against Russia. And then, to stay little white, I fought against the Bolsheviks. You know how in rape or murder, I didn’t seem to participate directly, I stood on the sidelines, but in fact the same scum.
  • tihonmarine
    tihonmarine 5 May 2020 08: 43 New
    0
    Just think and evaluate how many Brandenburgs and Nachtigales could be recruited and created from the White Guards?
    Anton Ivanovich did not fight during WWII, but he did no less for Victory than a combat general. Everyone should read "The History of Russian Troubles". He did not betray his people and country, like Krasnov and Shkuro. I respect him, as well as my grandfather, who was also against the Bolsheviks, but when the Second World War began, he blessed all his children and brothers to fight Hitler.
    1. bober1982
      bober1982 5 May 2020 09: 09 New
      0
      Quote: tihonmarine
      Anton Ivanovich did not fight during WWII, but he did nothing less than a military general for Victory

      Very controversial and strange statement, and surprising, like the article.
  • parusnik
    parusnik 5 May 2020 09: 15 New
    +4
    Denikin until his death remained an adversary of the Soviet system on the one hand, dreamed of overthrowing the Soviet regime, even by military means, but on the other hand, urged emigrants not to support Germany in the war with the USSR.
    ..... Yeah, "I love Russia, but a strange love" .. laughing Ataman Krasnov, too, suffered such love ... but more radically, even with Hitler, but against the Bolsheviks ... But both loved Russia ... One wanted to liberate Russia from the Bolsheviks with the "angels", the other with the "devils" laughing
    1. Insurgent
      Insurgent 5 May 2020 09: 33 New
      -1
      Quote: parusnik
      One wanted to liberate Russia from the Bolsheviks with the "angels", the second with the "devils"

      I will slightly correct your comment:

      " One wanted Russia with the "angels" "release" from the Bolsheviks, the second with "devils" "
      1. parusnik
        parusnik 5 May 2020 12: 00 New
        +2
        Insurgent....Thank...
    2. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 5 May 2020 12: 10 New
      -1
      Quote: parusnik
      Yeah, "I love Russia, but a strange love"

      Both white and red loved Russia, but some loved Tsarist Russia, while others loved Bolshevik Russia, we loved Soviet, and also modern Russia. God is the judge to us all.
  • Alex013
    Alex013 5 May 2020 09: 35 New
    -5
    “The author of the essay about Denikin, the historian Yuri Gordeev, referring to archival documents, wrote that the white general puzzled the Soviet authorities when in 1943 he decided to send a carriage of medicines purchased with his own accumulated funds for the Red Army soldiers to their homeland. Stalin, according to the historian, , was in a difficulty: to accept or not? We decided to use the help, but not to say a word to anyone, from whom it came. "
    1. parusnik
      parusnik 5 May 2020 12: 25 New
      +9
      Tell me, through which country and from which port and on which ship did this wagon leave or so, directly through the Eastern Front and how many people were involved in this operation and how did the Gestapo blink, since Denikin lived under supervision ...? And even in the semi-occupied France there was free sale of medicines or buying up, shipping went through Switzerland .. And the telegram was given to Stalin from the local post office in Mimizan, where Denikin lived? Devote details, terribly interesting ... Yes, I didn’t find information about such a historian on the Internet .. Perhaps the Swiss Red Cross was involved in the operation? .. And most importantly, where did the money come from, even the money ... Denikin himself didn’t have enough money, he made ends meet you?
      1. Alex013
        Alex013 5 May 2020 13: 23 New
        +1
        Therefore, I put it in quotation marks, because more questions than answers. Although I read that medicines and not only were supplied through funds, one of which was related to Denikin.
        About "the carriage and its own accumulated funds" are the fantasies of historians / journalists.
  • bober1982
    bober1982 5 May 2020 09: 42 New
    -4
    Where A. Suvorov went, this one would succumb to everyone, both ours and yours.
    Denikin acted on him like a red rag on a bull.
    1. Alexander Suvorov
      Alexander Suvorov 5 May 2020 10: 12 New
      12
      Yes, here I am, here. For me, Denikin’s personality is unambiguous, definitely a TRADER! Just competing with Skomorokhov is more expensive for himself, and already on the verge of a foul.
      And for those who doubt Denikin’s letter to help Truman, I won’t bring his text to anyone who needs to find it. The only difference between the traitor Denikin and the traitor Krasnov is that one sold out to the French, the British and the USA, and the second to the Germans. And so the same feces ... negative
      1. Octopus
        Octopus 5 May 2020 11: 27 New
        -5
        Quote: Alexander Suvorov
        Denikin's letter to Truman

        Denikin, while he was alive, knew about the existence of his letter to Truman? What about Truman?
      2. tihonmarine
        tihonmarine 5 May 2020 12: 12 New
        0
        Quote: Alexander Suvorov
        For me, Denikin’s personality is unambiguous, definitely a TRADER!

        Well, and whom did Denikin, Tsar Nicholas II, betray, but it seems he remained a monarchist until the end of his days.
  • Edward Vashchenko
    Edward Vashchenko 5 May 2020 10: 24 New
    +5
    The Germans did not beat, well done.

    Millions of killed Soviet civilians: children, women, who are already so young.
  • Edward Vashchenko
    Edward Vashchenko 5 May 2020 10: 31 New
    +8
    Just think and evaluate how many Brandenburgs and Nachtigales could be recruited and created from the White Guards?

    Yes, but how many deaths of true Russian people who at that time fought against German gangs?

    And that would be serious: smart, educated, knowledgeable about the history and customs of the country, fluent in the language ...

    The Nazis were also "smart, educated, knowing history," and what we are - bastards, savages, illiterate. Gentlemen, all in Paris, how dare our grandfathers, savages, such "smart and fluent in the language", interrupt and take such a cultural capital by storm, just some savages.
    The NKVD really would have to be hard.

    It would be hard for these traitors to Russia, like Krasnov or Shkuro. The NKVD knew its job tightly, and the whole people, from pioneers to the elderly, would help.
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 5 May 2020 13: 18 New
      -6
      Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
      Not sweet would have to to these traitors of Russia, like Krasnov or Shkuro.NKVD knew his business tight,


      This is yes-tight, but not in relation to hypothetical failed "traitors" of Russia, but in relation to quite himself really recognized as traitors Supreme Court of the USSR top leaders of the Red Army, party and governmentwho fought .... with Denikin in the civil war: this is the top leader of the Red Army. beginning of the General Staff of the Red Army until 1926, People's Commissars, Presovmin, deputies, members of the Polituro. Central Committee, etc.

      in the Court of the USSR they are named "department of GESTAPO and SS", "spies of the Reichsphere, etc.

      The Prosecutor General of the USSR officially about these heroes of the fight against Denikin at the Court: “Scum, stinky patal, dung, stinking heap of garbage, filthy dogs, damned reptile, scorched crooks, vile creatures, crooks, bandits, arrogant, despicable adventurers”, etc. yes

      Did he say such a thing about whites? belay request no ...


      You will recognize in the steel gauntlet of these heroes gr. the war of Trotsky. Uborevich, Tukhachevsky, etc., etc.? yes
  • Marine engineer
    Marine engineer 5 May 2020 10: 39 New
    +8
    “As before, and now I consider inevitable and necessary an armed struggle with the Bolsheviks until their complete defeat. Otherwise, not only Russia, but all of Europe will turn into ruins ”(A. I. Denikin).

    Denikin was and remained a patriot of “his Russia” of the 1917 type - representing the periphery of the then capitalist countries.
    He was a patriot of “that Russia”, which due to the lack of development of entire industries (technological backwardness) already lagged behind the advanced countries and over time this gap would only widen.
    The Bolsheviks showed a different path of development and the majority of the people followed them and Denikins followed. Hence the hatred and intransigence of this patriot.
    1. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 5 May 2020 12: 21 New
      +2
      Quote: Marine Engineer
      The Bolsheviks showed a different path of development and the majority of the people followed them and Denikins followed. Hence the hatred and intransigence of this patriot.

      One power leaves, another comes, but the people are always someone more, someone less remains faithful to the previous government. The Soviet Union left, a new government came, but some remained faithful to the previous government, others to the new government, but we all love our Motherland Russia, whoever we are. And hatred for a simple person, and for a patriot is not appropriate here. Hatred should be only to traitors, both former and present, who still live.
      1. Marine engineer
        Marine engineer 5 May 2020 14: 17 New
        +1
        +100 I agree with every word.
        1. tihonmarine
          tihonmarine 5 May 2020 14: 40 New
          0
          Quote: Marine Engineer
          +100 I agree with every word.

          And many do not agree, and life goes on, and what we lay it, such will be the children and grandchildren.
          1. ccsr
            ccsr 5 May 2020 19: 15 New
            +5
            Quote: tihonmarine
            And many do not agree, and life goes on, and what we lay it, such will be the children and grandchildren.

            The trouble with the current generation is that in Soviet times, my parents never bothered to teach me who was right in the Civil and what the personality cult was. My father gave the only assessment when I was already a mature person about Stalin - "There was a cult, but there was also a personality," and he did not engage in any kind of co-operation, although the participant in the war and his brother died at Stalingrad. That is why I consider his assessment of that time to be objective. But many current parents revile the Soviet era, and the period of the Civil and Patriotic Wars, and think that their descendants will grow up loving their Motherland and their history on their hatred. This is a big misfortune, and the example of Ukraine has shown well what kind of scoundrels one can make of the younger generation, one has only to start distorting and spitting on one's history. So it's time for some whistleblowers to think about what they will reap ...
  • 1536
    1536 5 May 2020 10: 51 New
    +2
    One thought comes: how strong Russia would be, how good its people would live, that it would be in peace, if the country remained united and indivisible, if there were no destructive revolutions, civil fratricidal wars, if smart, strong people did not kill each other in these wars, if they were not set against each other, if everyone lived in peace and harmony. Is this not part of the national idea, is it necessary to move forward with the future, is it not necessary to learn from the history of our country?
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      Edward Vashchenko 5 May 2020 12: 02 New
      +9
      There is a good Russian proverb about this: if so, if only mushrooms were growing in the port.
      how well her people would live,

      if serfdom were abolished not in 1861, but earlier,
      if the late Romanovs carried out "modernization" in the nineteenth century,
      if the Cossacks did not flog the peasants who wanted land and will, in 1905-1907.
      if the peasants had not been flogged at all before 1905 for any reason.
      if bread were not exported to Europe, but fed its own population into hunger, which periodically happened in Russia every ten years after 1861
      if the nobles did not squander their estates in Paris, at first these "if"
      well, and only then, about the "revolution"
      1. parusnik
        parusnik 5 May 2020 13: 50 New
        +8
        I will continue the topic of your comment: oh, if there were no revolutions in the Netherlands in the 16th century, in England in the 17th century, in America and France in the 18th century, etc. ... In other words, "Oh, if only, oh, if not life was, but a song! "(c) smile
        1. Edward Vashchenko
          Edward Vashchenko 5 May 2020 13: 59 New
          +4
          "Ah, if only, ah, if it were not life, but a song!"

          good
        2. vladcub
          vladcub 5 May 2020 17: 25 New
          +1
          Exactly
      2. tihonmarine
        tihonmarine 5 May 2020 14: 52 New
        +1
        Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
        if serfdom were abolished not in 1861, but earlier,
        if the late Romanovs carried out "modernization" in the nineteenth century,

        All the same, "beans would grow". No matter how hard you try, the world cannot stand in one place, demoralizing processes are always going on, in spite of everything "if", as the tagged bitch used to say, "the process has started." And after any process of decomposition, when the process of recovery came, it was necessary to make sure that decay did not lead to decomposition, but the moment was missed. Now, no "if" will help, because again the whole process must go through a full stage.
    2. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 5 May 2020 14: 41 New
      0
      Quote: 1536
      Is this not part of the national idea, is it necessary to move forward with the future,

      In this one hundred years, capitalism is trying to do, and not without reason.
  • Graz
    Graz 5 May 2020 12: 08 New
    -2
    the person is ambiguous, I would not call him evil, like good, a man of his bloody time, I will not take sides, neither for those who advocate for him, nor for those who reject
  • Zmeelov
    Zmeelov 5 May 2020 13: 12 New
    +5
    Today, Anton Ivanovich Denikin does not care what they say and write about him. I think it’s enough just to stop considering him a “controversial personality”

    Well, that begins before May 9 "tricky articles" .. Soon I think about Vlasov and such an article will be ..
    I won’t be surprised .. soldier
    1. RUSS
      RUSS 5 May 2020 15: 16 New
      0
      Quote: Zmeelov
      Today, Anton Ivanovich Denikin does not care what they say and write about him. I think it’s enough just to stop considering him a “controversial personality”

      Well, that begins before May 9 "tricky articles" .. Soon I think about Vlasov and such an article will be ..
      I won’t be surprised .. soldier

      Vlasov and Denikin are completely different personalities
  • Million
    Million 5 May 2020 13: 55 New
    +1
    Everyone loved and love Russia. Only in different ways.
    Denikin with his "love" was ready to destroy at least half of its population, since they became Bolsheviks ...
    1. RUSS
      RUSS 5 May 2020 15: 15 New
      -4
      Quote: Million
      Everyone loved and love Russia. Only in different ways.
      Denikin with his "love" was ready to destroy at least half of its population, since they became Bolsheviks ...

      What the Bolsheviks embodied from 1917 to 1937
      1. Million
        Million 5 May 2020 15: 35 New
        +4
        Would Denikin and Co. act differently?
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. RUSS
          RUSS 5 May 2020 20: 50 New
          -4
          Quote: Million
          Would Denikin and Co. act differently?

          We won’t know it anymore.
    2. vladcub
      vladcub 5 May 2020 16: 59 New
      +4
      Comrade Million, in the Civil War there are no "white and fluffy" ones. There are either downright scum or relatively decent
      1. mat-vey
        mat-vey 5 May 2020 17: 29 New
        -2
        Quote: vladcub
        Comrade Million, in the Civil War there are no "white and fluffy" ones. There are either downright scum or relatively decent

        Ek, you are about millions of people ... and for example, the same N. Ostrovsky, in what category of your classification would you classify?
      2. RUSS
        RUSS 5 May 2020 20: 51 New
        -2
        Quote: vladcub
        Comrade Million, in the Civil War there are no "white and fluffy" ones. There are either downright scum or relatively decent

        What events in the Donbass proved once again
  • vladcub
    vladcub 5 May 2020 16: 55 New
    +3
    "In real life, only the Cossacks, who were not taken seriously" Roman, do you mean Panwitz's regiment? In fact, this regiment was quite active against the Yugoslav partisans. During the Second World War, there was a case on the territory of Ukraine when a special anti-partisan Cossack battalion with weapons and ammunition went over to the side of the partisans. After this incident, the Germans did not begin to form Cossack units for action against the Soviet partisans. A book was published about this case: "The Rebel Battalion"
  • vladcub
    vladcub 5 May 2020 17: 21 New
    +3
    Quote: Graz
    the person is ambiguous, I would not call him evil, like good, a man of his bloody time, I will not take sides, neither for those who advocate for him, nor for those who reject

    This is reasonable. You and I cannot, even if we want, to change what happened. There was a Civil War, Denikin was on the side of the Whites, and Andrei Andreevich Vlasov in the Civil War was in the Red Army. In the Second World War, the first remained a patriot, and the second was sold to the Germans. In 1942 Vlasov sent his emissaries to Denikin, and he put them out: "I don’t talk to traitors to the Motherland."
  • Colonel
    Colonel 5 May 2020 17: 22 New
    -1
    The first, over the past couple of years, Skomorokhov's article, with which I completely agree.
  • cniza
    cniza 5 May 2020 18: 04 New
    +1
    “My always sincere desire was for Russia to come to this through evolution, and not revolution”


    And how relevant is it today ...
  • faterdom
    faterdom 5 May 2020 20: 14 New
    +1
    Well yes, that is the position.
    Both fighters against the Bolsheviks: Krasnov and Denikin, only the first became an enemy of Russia (whatever it was called at that moment) and led supporters, and the second did not become an enemy of Russia, and did not lead supporters. True, he did not lead against the Germans either, did not create Resistance, and so on.
    It is difficult to say who and how would act in their place in their winding fate, that de L. Kornilov, if he had lived, or Wrangel, where Kolchak would have been ...
    One can assume about those, but these did so.
    The most serious sin still remains on Nicholas II (as well as on Gorbachev) - the Judas sin, to betray those whom you control, who believe you, whose life depends on you, a glaring weakness - at the most crucial moment, an attempt to "become just a private person." ...
    1. vladcub
      vladcub 6 May 2020 13: 16 New
      +1
      "the gravest sin still remains on Nikolai 2. I agree with you in many ways, but as R. Skomorokhov says:" the devil hides in the little things. " tavo.
      Kolyan, I tried to collect the kents, but I didn’t ask who I was and they all snuffled
      1. Vlad world
        Vlad world 7 May 2020 11: 39 New
        -3
        That Nikolay, that Gorbachev were both henpecked. And such faithful friends and supporters practically do not exist.
  • LeonidL
    LeonidL 6 May 2020 06: 14 New
    +5
    Quote: mat-vey
    Тfor some reason, many forget that one of the parties was rampant before the civil war. .
    The flywheel of the Civil War was launched, alas, it was white people. Read the memoirs for example, "the grandmother of the Russian counter-revolution" Nesterovich-Berg "In the fight against the Bolsheviks", Count Zubov, Shulgin, Drozdovsky, Makhrov, Mamontov, Shkuro ... You will see a lot from a different angle.
  • gennadii
    gennadii 6 May 2020 06: 28 New
    0
    You need to know the history of the country, but sometimes you need to think about what to write about, and in a few years it will turn out that Hitler was the greatest liberator and humanist.
  • Valery Potapov
    Valery Potapov 6 May 2020 08: 50 New
    +2
    The heroization of the murderers of the Russian people, accomplices of foreign interventionists is an attempt of their own rehabilitation of the killers of the USSR, the crazy occupiers of Russia.
    1. Clerk
      Clerk 6 May 2020 10: 36 New
      +3
      But does Lenin mean white and fluffy in us, not financed by the German General Staff and not acting in his interests?
      1. ccsr
        ccsr 6 May 2020 11: 48 New
        +4
        Quote: clerk
        But does Lenin mean white and fluffy in us, not financed by the German General Staff and not acting in his interests?

        Until the spring of 1917, practically no one in Russia knew Lenin - believe less the official course "History of the CPSU", but rather read what he thought about the prospects of the Socialist Revolution when he told his comrades-in-arms that we would hardly see it.
        1. Clerk
          Clerk 6 May 2020 12: 26 New
          0
          And where does his fame in the empire and the support from the German General Staff? How do they fit together - please explain. And then in your opinion it turns out that only a famous person can support. If only they didn’t know him a lot - he was an underground then. By the 17th, he crawled out of the underground and began to shine with his mug left and right as a statesman.
          1. ccsr
            ccsr 6 May 2020 12: 38 New
            +2
            Quote: clerk
            And where does his fame in the empire and the support from the German General Staff?

            And despite the fact that in our history Grishka Otrepiev was both Marina Mnishek and Emelyan Pugachev, so study our history to understand Russia.
            Quote: clerk
            If only they didn’t know him a lot - he was an underground then.

            We recently Kvachkov out of prison - he was more than Lenin was sitting, but something is not visible that he will be able to become the leader of Russia.
            1. Clerk
              Clerk 6 May 2020 12: 58 New
              +2
              Quote: ccsr
              And despite the fact that in our history Grishka Otrepiev was both Marina Mnishek and Emelyan Pugachev, so study our history to understand Russia.

              This I already know that since they cannot defeat us by military means, they are trying to do it by means of cunning, intrigue and attempts to elevate "their" person to the throne. Trying to use shorter methods of establishing power in the banana republic.

              Quote: ccsr
              We recently Kvachkov out of prison - he was more than Lenin was sitting, but something is not visible that he will be able to become the leader of Russia.

              I asked a question: where is the little-known and sponsor from abroad. What is the relationship between them and logic. You are still trying to drag here about a prison term. Does term and obscurity somehow beg for sponsorship from abroad? If Denikin is bad for you because he had business with foreign countries, then how good is Lenin in this regard? You did not even answer my previous question.
              1. ccsr
                ccsr 6 May 2020 13: 10 New
                +1
                Quote: clerk
                If Denikin is bad for you because he had business with foreign countries, then how good is Lenin in this regard?

                Denikin, in addition to the misfortunes of our country, brought nothing to Civil, but Lenin began the construction of a great state, which later became the second largest in the world in terms of potential, so feel the difference.
                1. Clerk
                  Clerk 6 May 2020 13: 25 New
                  +2
                  Of course, I know that history does not tolerate the subjunctive mood, but if not for Lenin, then the cadets with essays would have done what they ultimately hacked at Lenin’s carbon copy — an 8-hour working day, universal education, and so on, which the Bolsheviks attributed to themselves .
                  Could you list what specific troubles you brought about? It suddenly became so interesting ... But I know about the Bolsheviks and the Communists: there are repressions / famines and so on. But about Denikin it would be very interesting to hear from you!
                  1. ccsr
                    ccsr 6 May 2020 18: 06 New
                    +1
                    Quote: clerk
                    Could you list what specific troubles you brought about?

                    If he refused to participate in the war on either side, he alone would benefit our Fatherland. There is nothing good to soak your hands with the blood of your compatriots - it is not for nothing that General Rokhlin refused high awards in our time.
                    Quote: clerk
                    I know about Bolsheviks and Communists: there are repressions / famines and so on.

                    Then it was a more difficult time, and it is impossible to characterize it with a set of stamps. When you have more life experience, you can start studying the documents of that period, and then you will learn a lot of interesting things about the life of that time. In the meantime, do not believe what businessmen are writing right now - they are fulfilling an order, or just scoundrels in fact.
                    Quote: clerk
                    But about Denikin it would be very interesting to hear from you!

                    Read his books, and you will learn a lot about that time. But we must not forget that he was not much favored by that power, and this also affects personal memories. His book is interesting in many details describing the life of that time and his service in the army. By the way, as a paradox, I studied in the same building in which Denikin studied, and what he writes about is very familiar to me from the years of my youth.
        2. Clerk
          Clerk 6 May 2020 12: 33 New
          +2
          Here you understand what the question is: when the Communists talk about the violent overthrow of someone’s power, this is good, and when they are overthrown, it’s immediately bad; when they say that some kind of personality on the part of the whites received support from foreigners or was in their society for some time - this is bad, but about the fact that their Bolshevik revolutionaries received support from the imperialists and lived abroad for a while - that’s stubbornly ignore or set cons. When they justify the October Revolution of the 18th, this is in their opinion good, because the predecessors, in their opinion, brought the country to the Stone Age, and when they were removed from power in the 91st and finally in the 93rd for the same reason, this is immediately bad. This is directly some kind of Jesuit duplicity, arrogance and resourcefulness, double standards on the part of the Communists.
          1. ccsr
            ccsr 6 May 2020 12: 42 New
            +3
            Quote: clerk
            Here you understand what the question is: when the Communists talk about the violent overthrow of someone’s power, this is good, and when they are overthrown, it’s immediately bad;

            It is not the Communists who say that any power uses its slogans that are advantageous to it. You simply interpret the world history too naively, and hence the inappropriate requirements for the same Bolsheviks who, by and large, bloodlessly seized power in a crumbling state in October 1917.
            Quote: clerk
            This is directly some kind of Jesuit duplicity, arrogance and resourcefulness, double standards on the part of the Communists.

            Well then, give me an example of the decency of American democracy, or British politicians, to finally understand what kind of mess in your head.
            1. Clerk
              Clerk 6 May 2020 12: 53 New
              +1
              Quote: ccsr
              It is not the Communists who say that any power uses its slogans that are advantageous to it. You just too naively interpret world history, and hence the inappropriate requirements for the same Bolsheviks,

              Specifically, on this site, one can only hear the whining of the communists. Moreover, the Soviets are from among ordinary citizens, and not from those in power. Therefore, your attack from the category of "nothing".

              Quote: ccsr
              You just too naively interpret world history

              "First go!"

              Quote: ccsr
              and hence the inappropriate requirements for the same Bolsheviks who, by and large, bloodlessly seized power in a crumbling state in October 1917

              Is the civil war bloodless? And what are then the claims to Yeltsin for the fact that he "bloodlessly took power into his own hands in a crumbling state" - why then so much whining from the Soviets?

              Quote: ccsr
              to finally understand what kind of mess in your head.

              "If a person claims that everything is in order with his head and he is psychologically healthy, then this is one of the signs of a psycho." How was Ray Bradbury in Fahrenheit 451? "If they ask how old you are, answer that you are seventeen and that you are crazy" - so what? At least my conscience is all right.

              Quote: ccsr
              Well then, give me an example of the decency of American democracy, or British politicians, to finally understand

              I have little interest in their "kitchen" - my shirt is closer to my body.
              1. ccsr
                ccsr 6 May 2020 13: 07 New
                +3
                Quote: clerk
                Specifically, on this site, only the whining of the Communists is heard.

                I do not whine, I only grieve for the future of my descendants, because the Soviet era was more humane in relation to my compatriots. But scaling up under capitalism will destroy our people, and instead of ideas of justice, they will be guides by the principles of virtuosity, and ultimately degrade to the level of guzzling Americans, who generally have no principles other than love for money, no matter how they are received.
                Quote: clerk
                And what are then the claims to Yeltsin for the fact that he "bloodlessly took power into his own hands in a crumbling state" - why then so much whining from the Soviets?

                So he speculated on the ideas of the Communists about equality - they forgot how he rode in a trolley bus?
                Quote: clerk
                At least everything is in order with my conscience.

                This makes me happy. But rely on the conscience of those who turn out to be more successful and cunning than you.
                Quote: clerk
                I have little interest in their "kitchen" - my shirt is closer to my body.

                And if she’s taken off, then what will you sing?
                1. Clerk
                  Clerk 6 May 2020 13: 19 New
                  +1
                  Quote: ccsr
                  I do not whine

                  I'm not talking for you alone

                  Quote: ccsr
                  I only grieve for the future of my descendants

                  Send literary receptions and dramaturgy.

                  Quote: ccsr
                  because the Soviet time was more humane in relation to my compatriots

                  Civil war, surplus surplus, cannibalism, arbitrariness of the NKVD, purges, labor camps, poverty - is this "humanism" in your understanding?

                  Quote: ccsr
                  But capitalization under capitalism will destroy our people

                  Capitalism is a catchword for the end of the 19th and the beginning of the 20th century. Stop using the thinking categories of the time. And stop reducing everything to extremes-poles: good \ evil, communism \ capitalism.
                  And what in Soviet times were all completely intellectuals and intellectuals? And who then cleaned the toilets? Robots? And then where did these robots go after the 91st? Russian rednecks drank them?

                  Quote: ccsr
                  and instead of ideas of justice he will be guides

                  Yes, it’s so good, sitting on the toilet to talk about the beauty of nails.

                  Quote: ccsr
                  and eventually degrades to the level of guzzling Americans, who generally have no principles other than a love of money, no matter how they are received.

                  I have a feeling that you are an introvert and a homebody, that you do not have any social skills.

                  Quote: ccsr
                  This makes me happy. But rely on the conscience of those who turn out to be more successful and cunning than you.

                  Woe to the vanquished, the victors write the story ...

                  Quote: ccsr
                  And if she’s taken off, then what will you sing?

                  Could it be more specific what you meant?

                  Quote: ccsr
                  So he speculated on the ideas of the Communists about equality - they forgot how he rode in a trolley bus?

                  Does the idea of ​​equality belong to the authorship of the communists? It seems that Cromwell invented it. And it’s not like the Communists had (Yeltsin).
                  1. hhhhhhh
                    hhhhhhh 6 May 2020 15: 42 New
                    +1
                    The Communists taught you to write and read. The capitalists ... destroyed our education now with us.)))
                    The rest is in favor of the poor debate.
                    1. Clerk
                      Clerk 6 May 2020 16: 38 New
                      0
                      No, if you please, listen to a portion of warm words addressed to you since you started such a conversation! They taught me to write and read, as well as other wisdom, I was not pioneers, not Komsomol members and not party functionaries, but ordinary people, most of whom, even by convictions, were not communists — they were a drum before politics.
                      And about the destruction of education ... it’s in vain that you put on a bad record ...
                      1. ccsr
                        ccsr 6 May 2020 18: 18 New
                        0
                        Quote: clerk
                        And about the destruction of education ... it’s in vain that you put on a bad record ...

                        That's when you find out how much education costs in a modern school now, when you have to pay for a child, including for sections, additional classes and tutors, then you may understand how capitalism differs from socialism. Interestingly, do you personally have children?
                      2. Clerk
                        Clerk 6 May 2020 21: 16 New
                        +2
                        Oddly enough, they go to school, secondary, state. And for some reason I don’t have to pay money for their training. Would you like to get out of the cave completely into the white light and shake the mold out of your head, which you have there instead of reality. Sections by itself are paid - for a person this is a profession, as well as for tutors. And leave your arguments to the children of the dungeons and to the disabled bedridden. As you can see, you have not crossed paths with reality for a long time - you locked yourself in your detective after the 91st and wrapped yourself in icteric jugs.
                      3. ccsr
                        ccsr 7 May 2020 12: 03 New
                        +1
                        Quote: clerk
                        Oddly enough, they go to school, secondary, state. And for some reason I don’t have to pay money for their training.

                        You are a miserable liar, because I paid for classes in the sports section at school, I also paid for all additional classes without which it is impossible to enter a university. I also had to pay for a tutor, and not because my son did not study well, but because the program is so primitive that the teachers themselves advised to study additionally. You are too far from life, and you even have no idea what is going on even in good Moscow schools, and here you are lying, not embarrassed, apparently paying well.
                        Quote: clerk
                        As you can see, you have not crossed paths with reality for a long time - you locked yourself in your detective after the 91st and wrapped yourself in icteric jugs.

                        Relax verbiage - I have been indulging in small business since 1996, and have seen a lot of different rags from office plankton, so I don’t take your demagogy seriously. But you still haven’t yet learned how to lie. The costs of the exam are visible.
                      4. Clerk
                        Clerk 7 May 2020 18: 37 New
                        +2
                        Quote: ccsr
                        You are a miserable liar, because I paid for classes in the sports section at school, I also paid for all additional classes without which it is impossible to enter a university.

                        First, don't generalize: separate the compulsory education at school and the section at school. Children study for free in public schools and colleges. When I was receiving secondary vocational training, we also had sections at the technical school - volleyball, basketball, "rocking chair" and hand-to-hand fighting, in which the classes were taught by teachers. I didn't pay a penny for classes there. Maybe you just keep silent that your school is simply renting out premises for some private owner?
                        Secondly: tutors are hired teachers, one can say that they are self-employed. Thank you, they will not do anything like no call specialist - their job is their bread. They have little relation to the system of state budget education. The school can only provide them with space.

                        Quote: ccsr
                        I also had to pay for a tutor, and not because my son did not study well, but because the program is so primitive that the teachers themselves advised to study additionally.

                        If the curriculum is so primitive - why didn’t you take care of your child as a very learned scientist in the Soviet system? At times, they would shut up the whole modern education system! Would show Kuzkin Mother!

                        Quote: ccsr
                        we are too far from life and even have no idea what is going on even in good Moscow schools,

                        I saw one Moscow school: all in uniform, with security, with a chic hall with a glass ceiling from which corridors go to classes in all directions, with a taekwondo section. And the school is not some kind of private there, but the usual general educational state, budget. Even in our countryside, at school, children learn to fly drones. So I know more about you on this topic.

                        Quote: ccsr
                        apparently pay well.

                        Quote: ccsr
                        visible costs of the exam.

                        Change the training manual, political boat. You are not even a person - you are just a virtual bot. You are here on the site as a flea on a dog.

                        Quote: ccsr
                        I have been brewing in small business since 1996

                        Come in those "holy" years to the local scourges pushed a stick?
                2. hhhhhhh
                  hhhhhhh 6 May 2020 20: 09 New
                  +1
                  Who would teach you in the favelas of rogues? Who told you that you are from 2% of the rich, and 8% of the service staff, you are from 90% of the poor. Your children can’t read already.
                  What makes you think that teachers wanted microloans for dumplings? Teachers built communism, and during the war it was not the summer cottage that they defended, but the country of the Soviets.
                  "And as for the destruction of education ... it was you in vain that you put on a hackneyed record .." - in the USA, school mass education has not been destroyed? ))) nu-nu.))
                3. Clerk
                  Clerk 6 May 2020 21: 09 New
                  +2
                  Quote: hhhhhhh
                  Who would teach you in the favelas of rogues? Who told you that you are from 2% of the rich, and 8% of the service staff, you are from 90% of the poor.

                  You need to go to Bobruisk, hamlo.

                  Quote: hhhhhhh
                  Your children can’t read already.

                  You know better from the sofa. My children will be more educated than you.

                  Quote: hhhhhhh
                  What makes you think that teachers wanted microloans for dumplings?

                  Absolutely chtoli bad?

                  Quote: hhhhhhh
                  Teachers built communism

                  Just do not need propaganda!

                  Quote: hhhhhhh
                  and during the war, it was not a summer cottage that they defended, but a country of Soviets.

                  They defended Russia, which you almost pissed off in the 41st.

                  Quote: hhhhhhh
                  in the USA, mass school education is not destroyed?

                  What does the USA have to do with it?
                4. The comment was deleted.
                5. ccsr
                  ccsr 7 May 2020 12: 30 New
                  +1
                  Quote: hhhhhhh
                  2. I prosrali Homeland in 1991, where were you at that time?

                  He is embarrassed to talk about this, but he uses the set of template answers well. I think that this is one of the crooks specializing in paid propaganda - they do not care who they wet or defend, if only they pay.
                6. Clerk
                  Clerk 7 May 2020 18: 39 New
                  +2
                  Quote: ccsr
                  He is embarrassed to talk about this, but he uses the set of template answers well. I think that this is one of the crooks specializing in paid propaganda - they do not care who they wet or defend, if only they pay.

                  Say something to yourself?
                7. hhhhhhh
                  hhhhhhh 10 May 2020 19: 43 New
                  0
                  You are ridiculous.)))) You do not understand how the world works))) The propaganda from you is so rushing.
        3. Pilat2009
          Pilat2009 10 May 2020 19: 36 New
          0
          Quote: hhhhhhh
          "And as for the destruction of education ... it was you in vain that you put on a hackneyed record .." - in the USA, school mass education has not been destroyed? ))) nu-nu.))

          So the problem is that they did education in the USA. They optimized it. As one doctor said, fortunately, they didn’t fully optimize healthcare. And it would be like in Italy
  • ccsr
    ccsr 6 May 2020 17: 51 New
    0
    Quote: clerk
    Send literary receptions and dramaturgy.

    No tricks - my son finished school last year and I know very well how their generation differs from mine.
    Quote: clerk
    Capitalism is a catchword for the end of the 19th and the beginning of the 20th century

    Give your definition of the current system, since you are more talented than Marx.
    Quote: clerk
    And what in Soviet times were all completely intellectuals and intellectuals?

    No, it’s just that people were more decent then and there was no irreconcilable stratification of society. Do you think that Abramovich and you are personally socially equal to our society? I think he doesn’t think so.
    Quote: clerk

    Woe to the vanquished, the victors write the story ...

    This incidentally, Hitler professed. I hope you know the final.

    Quote: clerk
    I have a feeling that you are an introvert and a homebody, that you do not have any social skills.

    I also get the impression of you as a not-so-distant person, even if you are not typing texts at home. As for my active work, it was most likely when you probably were not yet in the world. Now I’m just curious to understand those who replaced us.

    Quote: clerk
    Could it be more specific what you meant?

    Before my eyes there are several fates of people who in the nineties grabbed God by the beard, and now, to put it mildly, they live very modestly. And some even died, although they were worthy people in Soviet times - but these are vicissitudes of fate from which no one is safe. Or did the Lord write you a life insurance policy?

    Quote: clerk
    Does the idea of ​​equality belong to the authorship of the communists? It seems that Cromwell invented it.

    I don’t know what Cromwell invented there, but in ancient Greece they thought about a humane society, as I recall.
    1. Clerk
      Clerk 6 May 2020 21: 35 New
      +3
      Quote: ccsr
      No tricks - my son finished school last year and I know very well how their generation differs from mine.

      Just do not start here about how the current generation is spoiled. All old people are grumbling about it at all times. You might think at his age you were serious, responsible, wise and so on.

      Quote: ccsr
      Give your definition of the current system, since you are more talented than Marx.

      I do not encroach on the laurels of Marx, but I am inclined to believe that this is conservatism with an admixture of social liberalism. The presence of a market economy does not mean that the state is capitalist.

      Quote: ccsr
      No, it’s just that people were more decent then and there was no irreconcilable stratification of society. Do you think that Abramovich and you are personally socially equal to our society? I think he doesn’t think so.

      I had a friend who believed that in ancient Greece there was no alcoholism, courage and bestiality and other things. He believed that this was all fiction, but in reality that it was all as romantic as in myths. So is it you. About the fact that in ancient times people were more decent than the current Confucius wrote.
      Was your Stalin equal before society? What about party functionaries? And Lenin himself, who had accounts (!!!) in Swiss (OFFSHORE !!!) banks?

      Quote: ccsr
      This incidentally, Hitler professed. I hope you know the final.

      "Woe to the vanquished" (Latin Vae victis) is an ancient Latin dictum. "The Winners Write History" by Anton Drexler, head of the German Workers' Party. Hitler has only that relation to this phrase that he subsequently headed this party.

      Quote: ccsr
      I also get the impression of you as a not-so-distant person, even if you are not typing texts at home.

      Can you give me a little more detail? What did you mean? Interestingly write, ambiguously. Go on!

      Quote: ccsr
      Or did the Lord write you a life insurance policy?

      What am I going to live forever?

      Quote: ccsr
      I don’t know what Cromwell invented there, but in ancient Greece they thought about a humane society, as I recall.

      Well, in general, as long as humanity exists, there are so many hopes for a brighter future. In this way, the Communists walk in the woods.
      1. ccsr
        ccsr 7 May 2020 12: 15 New
        +1
        Quote: clerk
        Just do not start here about how the current generation is spoiled.

        I do not say that it is corrupted - I do not see their prospects, and the reason here is in those values ​​that those who hold power now profess.
        Quote: clerk
        I do not encroach on the laurels of Marx, but I am inclined to believe that this is conservatism with an admixture of social liberalism

        But I am inclined to believe that you are simply verbiage, who could not understand the ideas of Marxism. Or maybe they pervert them on purpose, since you get paid for it.
        Quote: clerk
        Was your Stalin equal before society?

        Judging by the fact that he started from the bottom and became a great leader, society gave everyone equal opportunities. What opportunities do you have, for example, with the capabilities of the daughter of Sobchak or with the sons of Chaika? None and you know it, even if you curry favor with them.
        Quote: clerk
        Hitler has only that relation to this phrase that he subsequently led this party.

        And what does your mind mean if I told you that Hitler held these views?
        Quote: clerk
        Go on!

        When I consider it necessary, I will continue.
        Quote: clerk
        What am I going to live forever?

        Yes, you may be a preacher of Jehovah's Witnesses.
        Quote: clerk
        In this way, the Communists walk in the woods.

        Why so? On the contrary, it is they who have built socialism in the multimillion-dollar USSR, and not cheap popular capitalism of Norway, where the entire population is a couple of Moscow regions.
      2. Clerk
        Clerk 7 May 2020 18: 53 New
        0
        Quote: ccsr
        I’m not saying that it is spoiled - I don’t see their prospects,

        Your parents, I think you were of the same opinion.

        Quote: ccsr
        But I am inclined to believe that you are simply verbiage, who could not understand the ideas of Marxism.

        Well, where can I, the rural cattle, before comprehending the Great Ideas of Marxism! Whether it’s you, a ray of light among us pigs!

        Quote: ccsr
        Judging by the fact that he started from the bottom and became a great leader, society gave everyone equal opportunities

        We are all equal from birth - because we are born naked and have nothing. If so, what kind of claims can you have towards current politicians? After all, like you, you were born in the territory of this country, studied in secondary schools, worked, got into institutions?

        Quote: ccsr
        What opportunities do you have, for example, with the capabilities of the daughter of Sobchak or with the sons of Chaika?

        Exactly the same as the chances of a simple collective farmer to become a Kremlin official in Soviet times.

        Quote: ccsr
        None and you know it, even if you curry favor with them.

        No one during birth gives anyone any guarantees who will become who in life gives. It all depends purely on the person. A 100% guarantee can be given to you by only one person in the whole world - the undertaker - that sooner or later you will turn out to be his client.

        Quote: ccsr
        And what does your mind mean if I told you that Hitler held these views?

        Well, so the Bolsheviks adhered to these views: as soon as the civil war ended, so immediately in all history textbooks they wrote down how to counteract them as enemies of the people and bandits.

        Quote: ccsr
        Yes, you may be a preacher of Jehovah's Witnesses.

        You are a very sociable person - you obviously have something to say to this world. I already understood this for sure. But I want to give you one piece of advice: when there is nothing to say, it is better to remain silent. So at least for the smart get off.

        Quote: ccsr
        Why so? On the contrary, it is they who have built socialism in the multimillion-dollar USSR, and not cheap popular capitalism of Norway, where the entire population is a couple of Moscow regions.

        The size of the population is not the merit of the USSR and socialism. The population of Ingushetia before the Bolsheviks came to power was even greater. And the Bolsheviks began to systematically drive him to the grave with their policies, up to the point that they left us a poor demography as their inheritance.
        But in India there are about one and a half billion people - but there is no socialism there. So you are once again in flight.
  • Clerk
    Clerk 6 May 2020 15: 21 New
    0
    Quote: ccsr
    And if she’s taken off, then what will you sing?

    You’re better off taking off your shirt, but go talk instead of lying:
    Quote: Maria95
    Hello)) My name is Masha, I am 23 years old. I want to find a man for intimate meetings and vulgar communication. I will be glad to answer everyone, write to me on a dating site, here is my page - loveto.one/masha96
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 6 May 2020 17: 54 New
      0
      Quote: clerk
      You’re better off taking off your shirt, but go talk instead of lying:

      I didn’t even suspect how primitive your imagination was. But I realized what worries you - now it’s clear that the puberty period is not over yet.
  • hhhhhhh
    hhhhhhh 6 May 2020 15: 46 New
    +2
    "There is no such direct evidence" - Many generals remained in Russia and proved to the Motherland that they were Russians.
    I consider Denikin a traitor. Article minus.
  • 7,62h54
    7,62h54 6 May 2020 16: 14 New
    0
    Or good, or nothing. I will not say anything.
  • dvina71
    dvina71 6 May 2020 17: 13 New
    0
    We must thank such people ..

    And the question is ... didn’t Alekseyev have Denikin’s headquarters? The one who persuaded H2 to abdicate .. plunging the country into anarchy and civil war.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Brancodd
    Brancodd 6 May 2020 17: 17 New
    0
    Patriot means. Well, let everyone appreciate the degree of patriotism of the general
    From a letter from Denikin to US President Harry Truman, written in the summer of 1946.
    Denikin’s letter is kept at the US National Archives in Admiral Leah’s collection We publish excerpts from this letter.
    - A new and especially serious danger is growing due to the new game, which the Soviets started with the Germans and the Japanese. Flirting with feelings of national humiliation and resorting to fraudulent promises, the Soviets prepare hordes of mercenaries
    Constantly changing the form and intensity of his actions, resorting to the help of propaganda, local armed conflicts, riots, strikes and uprisings, Stalin follows the path of Bolshevization of the world. The only question is time. Circumstances may accelerate or ultimately delay an impending storm. And, obviously, everything will depend on the degree of decomposition of peoples by the Bolshevik propaganda and their provocative policies.
    - It should be remembered that if the Soviets can use the atomic bomb on an appropriate scale, the possession of these weapons will lead to an immediate and frankly inhumane action on the part of the USSR. The attack will be carried out without declaring a reason, without warning, without attention to the possibilities or appeals for peace on the part of Western democracies, and even despite the complete surrender to Soviet demands.
    - Since the future portends the inevitable struggle between democratic peace-loving countries and the Soviets, whatever the forms of struggle, it is necessary to immediately take steps that guarantee the most favorable conditions during the upcoming conflict. The following measures should be taken without delay:
    A. Close cooperation, especially between English-speaking powers. Do not succumb to the provocations of the Soviets, which inflate and take advantage of discord. The task of paramount importance is to protect France and Spain from communization.
    b. Refusal to provide the USSR with any credits (American or British) until absolute guarantees of the cessation of any military, political and propaganda aggression are received. However, one can hardly expect effective guarantees, since the Bolshevik "plan for the restoration" of the USSR is known: all Russia's resources will be directed to guns, airplanes and atomic bombs in accordance with the new five-year plan recently announced by Stalin. On the other hand, the food and supplies required to provide for the people are supposed to be obtained from the Western democracies, from the very countries against which weapons are stockpiled.
    c. Immediately end the current opportunist policy towards the Soviets. Appeasement will not prevent conflict and will only lead to greater insolence on the part of the Soviets and their vassals — the foreign communist parties. Moreover, appeasement helps strengthen communist influence in the eyes of the intoxicated masses and weakens the prestige of democratic governments.
    1. Clerk
      Clerk 6 May 2020 17: 29 New
      +2
      Well, a patriot of Russia, not the Soviet Union and communism!
      1. ccsr
        ccsr 6 May 2020 18: 29 New
        +1
        Quote: clerk
        Well, a patriot of Russia, not the Soviet Union and communism!

        Russian people have no moral right to destroy their compatriots, except for traitors - this is our patriotism towards the Motherland, and not to the system that currently exists.
        1. Clerk
          Clerk 6 May 2020 21: 03 New
          +3
          Quote: ccsr
          Russian people have no moral right to destroy their compatriots, except for traitors

          ... and that is precisely why all those wealthy peasants who were "dispossessed", all those dissatisfied with Stalin's policy and other victims of totalitarianism, you branded "enemies of the people" ...

          Quote: ccsr
          this is our patriotism towards the motherland

          Your homeland is the USSR, not the Russian Federation. The site will remind you - not Soviet, but Russian. Therefore, I ask you to respect the country, its flag and its deeds.

          Quote: ccsr
          and not to the system that currently exists.

          So you slept!
          1. ccsr
            ccsr 7 May 2020 11: 54 New
            +1
            Quote: clerk
            and that is precisely why all those prosperous peasants who were "dispossessed", all those dissatisfied with Stalin's policy and other victims of totalitarianism, you branded "enemies of the people"

            And we condemn the period of repression - even the party recognized this as a mistake. But then you also remember about the church schism and the fate of the Old Believers, who were sometimes burned alive in their churches. You don’t know such a fact from our history? By the way, how many people died early in the nineties in Russia before they even reached fifty? Of my childhood friends, five people did not live up to the year 2000, and they were not homeless people, but a navigator, an aircraft technician, an electrical engineer, a locomotive driver, and other normal people who were ordinary people. Do you have to present an account or is this enough?
            Quote: clerk
            Your homeland is the USSR, not the Russian Federation.

            Yes, my homeland is the USSR, and I am glad and proud of it. What can you be proud of now to spit in the direction of the USSR?
            Quote: clerk
            The site will remind you - not Soviet, but Russian.

            And who are you, in fact, to use what was created in Soviet times and to have the audacity to tell others what they should write on a Russian site? You yourself are Russian and live in Russia? I do not believe.
            Quote: clerk
            Therefore, I ask you to respect the country, its flag and its deeds.

            Are you not from the cage of paid propagandists by accident?
            Quote: clerk
            So you slept!

            I do not fall for it - I always express the truth in the face of various crooks, apparently this time too she reached the addressee.
            1. Clerk
              Clerk 7 May 2020 19: 24 New
              0
              Quote: ccsr
              And we condemn the period of repression - even the party recognized this as a mistake.

              This was done first by Khrushchev's supporters after he came to power, and then to a greater extent by democrats in the 80s. Stalin and the Neo-Stalinists did not recognize anything.

              Quote: ccsr
              And about the church schism, remember the fate of the Old Believers, who were sometimes burned alive in their churches.

              There are no activist fanatics on this site for whom a similar topic would be a pretext for propaganda. Either Communists, for whom they are not yet in power, are all bad and wrong, all thieves and bandits.

              Quote: ccsr
              By the way, how many people died early in the nineties in Russia before they even reached fifty? Of my childhood friends, five people did not live up to the year 2000, and they were not homeless people, but a navigator, an aircraft technician, an electrical engineer, a locomotive driver, and other normal people who were ordinary people.

              Well, people tend to die. It is one thing when their life does not work out, they die at the hands of a robber or do not find themselves, and the other is when the state purposefully starves them and arranges for them to hunt according to the order as spies and pests.

              Quote: ccsr
              What can you be proud of now

              Than? Improving the standard of living, civil liberties and rights - when you are not put on the wall and slapped for marrying a foreigner, reading forbidden literature, doing business, having an opposite point of view; the absence of a commodity and food shortage, the development of those areas of science that were lagging behind in Soviet times, the reunification with Crimea penetrated by you, because we have a solid political weight on the world stage.

              Quote: ccsr
              And who are you, in fact, to use what was created in Soviet times,

              1). The foundation of the railway network in the USSR was laid back in the empire
              2). Industrialization began in Empire
              3). Electrification is the same, even in pre-revolutionary times.
              4). An 8-hour working day with a 5-day working week, legislative labor protection, universal free education, the equality of all citizens without gender and nationality, equality and equal opportunities for all, the idea of ​​a welfare state, a multifaceted economy, the fight against unemployment and everything else is the brainchild of the Cadets and Socialist-Revolutionaries
              5). Free schools and hospitals for peasants began to appear in the territory of the Republic of Ingushetia in the second half of the 19th century
              6). Helicopter engineering (Mil, Kamov), rocketry (Korolev) and other industries are the brainchilds of those who were educated under the emperor and survived the purges. What kind of "Soviet science" can there be?
              Aren't you ashamed of yourself?

              Quote: ccsr
              Are you not from the cage of paid propagandists by accident?

              Have you started talking about yourself again?

              Quote: ccsr
              I do not fall for it - I always express the truth in the face of various crooks, apparently this time too she reached the addressee.

              The truth in you is like water in the desert.
              1. abc_alex
                abc_alex 7 May 2020 22: 08 New
                +1
                Quote: clerk
                1). The foundation of the railway network in the USSR was laid back in the empire

                The foundation of you is laid by your grandparents. On this basis, are you ready to deny merit in your birth of your parents?

                Quote: clerk
                2). Industrialization began in Empire

                Not only did not start, but was not even planned. Several disparate industrial centers are not an industry. Even from the point of view of the military-industrial complex, the Republic of Ingushetia was not industrial, there were entire classes of weapon systems that the Empire could not produce on its own.


                Quote: clerk
                3). Electrification is the same, even in pre-revolutionary times.

                Again, you are wrong. Simply because you don't understand what electrification is all about. These are not only new generators. This is a huge set of measures from the "Ilyich's lamp" to the transfer of the entire industry to electric traction. The Empire did not even think about it.

                Quote: clerk
                4). An 8-hour working day with a 5-day working week, legislative labor protection, universal free education, the equality of all citizens without gender and nationality, equality and equal opportunities for all, the idea of ​​a welfare state, a multifaceted economy, the fight against unemployment and everything else is the brainchild of the Cadets and Socialist-Revolutionaries

                It ideas and fantasies Cadets and Socialist-Revolutionaries. By the way, you attributed to them a lot of superfluous. But the Bolsheviks REALIZED all this. There is, you know, a difference.

                Quote: clerk
                5). Free schools and hospitals for peasants began to appear in the territory of the Republic of Ingushetia in the second half of the 19th century


                So what? There is the same difference between a central vocational school and one zemstvo hospital in a 200 verst district and the Soviet system of free education and healthcare, as between a baby doll and a living child.

                Quote: clerk
                6). Helicopter engineering (Mil, Kamov), rocketry (Korolev) and other industries are the brainchilds of those who were educated under the emperor and survived the purges. What kind of "Soviet science" can there be?

                ??? Interesting logic. As I understand it, now there is no Russian science, since everyone who moves it has received education in the USSR, or studied with those who received education in the USSR. :)

                But Ilyushin, is he a Soviet designer? And Antonov, he went to school from 1915 to 1922. Is he Soviet? Kamov, by the way, entered the university in 1918. Well, he just couldn't have done it before, he was born in 1902. Is he Soviet or not? Miles and at all 1909. He entered the university in 1928. Obviously he is also "not Soviet", right? Here is Sukhoi - yes, he is from the "old" 1895, entered and graduated from high school, and entered the school in 1915. True, he was drafted to the front almost immediately. And he returned to study only ... in 1921, by virtue of the resolution adopted by the Bolsheviks on the mandatory return of students to higher educational institutions.
                Lavochkin is the same age as the 1900s. graduated from high school in 1927, by the way from 1918 in the red army.
                It is strange that you did not mention Polikarpov. Although they should have. He is truly a Russian imperial science. He worked with Sikorsky.
                Korolev had the same misfortune - he was born in 1906 and began training in the engineering specialty in 1922-24. And he became addicted to aviation in the framework of the 30s-promoted aviation company of the Bolsheviks. And he received a second free higher education in 1924-1926. Well, the GIRD even arose on the basis of OSOAVIAHIM ...

                Maybe not so simple, huh?
                1. Clerk
                  Clerk 8 May 2020 17: 18 New
                  0
                  Quote: abc_alex
                  The foundation of you is laid by your grandparents. On this basis, are you ready to deny merit in your birth of your parents?

                  Well, we are one people. But our political convictions (ie "which way to go and how to do it") may be different.

                  Quote: abc_alex
                  Not only did not start, but was not even planned. Several disparate industrial centers are not an industry. Even from the point of view of the military-industrial complex, the Republic of Ingushetia was not industrial, there were entire classes of weapon systems that the Empire could not produce on its own.

                  "... and only the Soviet government gave our country the opportunity ..." - it feels like reading you I read old Soviet textbooks. It began under Nicholas the First. The empire produced tractors, airplanes, submarines, cars, the navy, there was a textile industry, mechanical engineering - all this was even before the USSR: https://www.politforums.net/historypages/1516338454.html

                  Quote: abc_alex
                  Again, you are wrong. Simply because you don't understand what electrification is all about. These are not only new generators. This is a huge set of measures from the "Ilyich's lamp" to the transfer of the entire industry to electric traction. The Empire did not even think about it.

                  ... here is some material about electrification in the Empire:
                  https://statehistory.ru/3973/Elektrifikatsiya-v-dorevolyutsionnoy-Rossii/
                  https://wowavostok.livejournal.com/6122553.html
                  https://harmfulgrumpy.livejournal.com/543193.html

                  Quote: abc_alex
                  These are the ideas and fantasies of the Cadets and Socialist-Revolutionaries. By the way, you attributed to them a lot of superfluous. But the Bolsheviks REALIZED all this. There is, you know, a difference.

                  Not ideas and fantasies, but party work programs.
                  Specifically, what did I attribute to them too much?
                  If the Bolsheviks had not dispersed the Constituent Council and started the Civil War, then these, as you put it, "fantasies" would have been realized by other people, not your Kartavy.

                  Quote: abc_alex
                  So what? There is the same difference between a central vocational school and one zemstvo hospital in a 200 verst district and the Soviet system of free education and healthcare, as between a baby doll and a living child.

                  It is necessary to compare phenomena that are not different in time, but from one year but from different places - for example, Soviet medicine and western medicine in the 80s, when we still used catheters and reusable syringes with might and main, and they were in full swing re-equipped with modern technology. If this is the case then I’m afraid you will soon come to a comparison of the Stone Age with the futuristic future. The fact here is not which of the systems was more sophisticated, but that despite the communists' assertions that there was no medicine before them - there was still medicine. So no one argues that modern medicine is any better than the one that was in the 19th century. But the point here is that free medicine for commoners was before the advisers.

                  Quote: abc_alex
                  ??? Interesting logic. As I understand it, now there is no Russian science, since everyone who moves it has received education in the USSR, or studied with those who received education in the USSR. :)

                  In modern science, there is no such bashful phenomenon when the fact of using the achievements of past generations for propaganda purposes is ignored. Everywhere it is said in black and white who where what sharazhka finished, what is based on what developments of the Union and so on - no one seeks to hide this as in the Union in order to show the superiority of the socialist system.

                  Quote: abc_alex
                  But Ilyushin, is he a Soviet designer? And Antonov, he went to school from 1915 to 1922. Is he Soviet? Kamov, by the way, entered the university in 1918. Well, he just couldn't have done it before, he was born in 1902. Is he Soviet or not? Miles and at all 1909. He entered the university in 1928. Obviously he is also "not Soviet", right? Here is Sukhoi - yes, he is from the "old" 1895, entered and graduated from high school, and entered the school in 1915. True, he was drafted to the front almost immediately. And he returned to study only ... in 1921, by virtue of the resolution adopted by the Bolsheviks on the mandatory return of students to higher educational institutions.
                  Lavochkin is the same age as the 1900s. graduated from high school in 1927, by the way from 1918 in the red army.

                  Well, here, like on this site - a certain part of users are citizens of the Russian Federation, but the USSR is considered their homeland)

                  Quote: abc_alex
                  It is strange that you did not mention Polikarpov. Although they should have. He is truly a Russian imperial science. He worked with Sikorsky.

                  I tried to be extremely concise.

                  Quote: abc_alex
                  Maybe not so simple, huh?

                  In what sense?
              2. ccsr
                ccsr 8 May 2020 11: 17 New
                +1
                Quote: clerk
                Either Communists, for whom they are not yet in power, are all bad and wrong, all thieves and bandits.

                There are just such units here, but the current regime is reproached by many of those who, like you, are trying to defraud the Soviet regime and they consider the current rulers thieves.

                Quote: clerk
                when they don’t put you on the wall and slap you for marrying a foreigner,

                Everything is clear - the Solzhenitsyn fosterling is immediately evident.
                Quote: clerk
                . 8-hour working day at 5-day working week, legislative labor protection,

                A blatant lie - there were no restrictions on hourly employment in RI.
                Quote: clerk
                . Free schools and hospitals for peasants began to appear in the territory of the Republic of Ingushetia in the second half of the 19th century

                Heinous lies - there were only TsPSh, and even then they were not obligatory for visiting. My grandmother, born in 1905, remained illiterate, because it was believed that the girls had nothing to do there, but parents needed help at home.
                Quote: clerk
                Helicopter engineering (Mil, Kamov), rocket engineering (Korolev) and other industries are the brainchild of those who were educated under the emperor

                Education does not mean that all doors to success in tsarist Russia were open to man — it was the Soviet government that allowed everyone to achieve high results in the USSR without regard to their origin thanks to their work. Even now it is destroyed - but crooks, like you, are trying to prove to everyone that the children of our oligarchs will be in the same conditions as the children of ordinary teachers or workers. You are either a big swindler or a big scoundrel, since you decided that now there is no estate of oligarchs and officials, and there is the rest of Russia, which is not shining.
                Quote: clerk
                The truth in you is like water in the desert.

                But from you lies whip like from a cornucopia.
                1. Clerk
                  Clerk 8 May 2020 16: 36 New
                  +1
                  Quote: ccsr
                  There are just such units here, but the current regime is reproached by many of those who, like you, are trying to defraud the Soviet regime and they consider the current rulers thieves.

                  Yes, I know all of you - squabbler, Nord Ural and the rest. Some of you are hiding your political beliefs, someone is parading. But all of you here are engaged in propaganda. I don’t need to tell you that there are only a few of you - in any article you litter comments on politics on an industrial scale, as if you are paid a dollar for each comment.

                  Quote: ccsr
                  Everything is clear - the Solzhenitsyn fosterling is immediately evident.

                  And where is Solzhenitsyn? You are so hated that a person is a person who from birth has natural human rights, to whom the state gives civil liberties? In your opinion, is man a material resource, soulless utensils that will endure everything? And what does Solzhenitsyn have to do with it again?

                  Quote: ccsr
                  A blatant lie - there were no restrictions on hourly employment in RI.

                  Instead of tearing out a phrase from the context and, on its basis, trying to slander your interlocutor, it would be better to take off the cosmetic mask from your face and read that these are programs of cadets and Socialist-Revolutionaries, which they brazenly stole and gave out as a burry Revolutionary.

                  Quote: ccsr
                  Heinous lies - there were only TsPSh, and even then they were not obligatory for visiting. My grandmother, born in 1905, remained illiterate, because it was believed that the girls had nothing to do there, but parents needed help at home.

                  So before the Second World War, how many were those who simply graduated from LikBez? How many peasants who, upon arrival in the city, confused a night pot with utensils? And under Brezhnev, how many collective farmers hardly graduated from secondary school?
                  The fact is that not some schools were under the Republic of Ingushetia, but that the first state schools for commoners in the country did not appear under the Soviets, but under the emperor.

                  Quote: ccsr
                  it was Soviet power that allowed everyone, without regard to origin, to achieve high results in the USSR thanks to their work.

                  ... especially these results will be high if reprisals and a criminal offense immediately follow for failure to fulfill a plan or for any violation - this is the strength of Comrade Nagan, who looks from one back to the other!
                  But nothing that most of these fathers of the industries originally sat in the NKVD camps and almost disappeared there?

                  Quote: ccsr
                  Even now it is destroyed - but crooks, like you, are trying to prove to everyone that the children of our oligarchs will be in the same conditions as the children of ordinary teachers or workers.

                  And that the children of collective farmers and the children of party functionaries were on an equal footing?

                  Quote: ccsr
                  You are either a big swindler or a big scoundrel,

                  "You, Zin, strive to offend everything, you run into rudeness!"
                  1. ccsr
                    ccsr 8 May 2020 16: 49 New
                    +1
                    Quote: clerk
                    But all of you here are engaged in propaganda.

                    It’s a lie — we are only telling the truth about the USSR and we are not giving it a slander to modern idiots.
                    Quote: clerk
                    And where is Solzhenitsyn? You are so hated that a person is a person,

                    He is a miserable fittler, able to write, and no more.
                    Quote: clerk
                    that these are the programs of the Cadets and Socialist-Revolutionaries, which they brazenly stole and gave out as a burry Revolutionary.

                    Lies - Lenin's genius as a theoretician is recognized throughout the world, even by those who refute Marxism. So he does not need to steal anything - his ideas are still used.

                    Quote: clerk
                    And under Brezhnev, how many collective farmers hardly graduated from secondary school?

                    I don’t know the exact numbers, but with me higher education graduates of rural schools received - I don’t remember that they were dumber than others.
                    Quote: clerk
                    and the fact that the first public schools for commoners in the country did not appear under the Soviets, but under the emperor.

                    You would give the Bolshoi Theater as an example of the high culture of all citizens of the Russian Empire.
                    Quote: clerk
                    And that the children of collective farmers and the children of party functionaries were on an equal footing?

                    We passed the entrance examinations all together, so that everything depended only on the knowledge of the applicant - this is what I remember well. Although it may have been blat somewhere, but usually these people did not go to study where I studied.
                    Quote: clerk
                    "You, Zin, strive to offend everything, you run into rudeness!"

                    No, I only give an objective assessment of the texts of opponents.
                    1. Clerk
                      Clerk 8 May 2020 17: 34 New
                      0
                      Quote: ccsr
                      It’s a lie — we are only telling the truth about the USSR and we are not giving it a slander to modern idiots.

                      Why did you suddenly get something that you are distributing - right? Because you yourself claim this? Well, and what is the truth? So, unfounded empty words.

                      Quote: ccsr
                      He is a miserable fittler, able to write, and no more.

                      I ask: where does Solzhenitsyn and human rights / freedoms? What is your logical relationship in this?

                      Quote: ccsr
                      Lies - Lenin's genius as a theoretician is recognized throughout the world, even by those who refute Marxism. So he does not need to steal anything - his ideas are still used.

                      Some are engaged in bootlicking, others know the true value of themselves and Kartavom.

                      Quote: ccsr
                      I don’t know the exact numbers, but with me higher education graduates of rural schools received - I don’t remember that they were dumber than others.

                      Those who received the tower with you are the followers of collective farm children throughout the country? There were no others besides them?

                      Quote: ccsr
                      You would give the Bolshoi Theater as an example of the high culture of all citizens of the Russian Empire.

                      Alas, you don’t even have this as an indicator of a high culture of homo sovieticus ...

                      Quote: ccsr
                      No, I only give an objective assessment of the texts of opponents.

                      They would give objective - in addition to praising the USSR, they also dumped a pile of slops on it. And so you only give out your biased point of view as the truth in the last instance.
                      1. ccsr
                        ccsr 9 May 2020 12: 42 New
                        +1
                        Quote: clerk
                        Why did you suddenly get something that you are distributing - right?

                        Because I lived and worked then, so I do not know life from the propaganda materials of the present time.

                        Quote: clerk
                        Those who received the tower with you are the followers of collective farm children throughout the country?

                        No need to blunt - already in the USSR, urbanization led to the fact that rural residents became less than urban. But collective and state farms existed, and they did not bend, and from there people came to enter universities in the capital cities.


                        Quote: clerk
                        Alas, you don’t even have this as an indicator of a high culture of homo sovieticus ...

                        So you, except how to spit in the USSR through the monitor, have not learned anything - what then is your "culture"?
                        Quote: clerk
                        then in addition to praise in the USSR, they also dumped a pile of slops on it.

                        You are a slop specialist - why should I help such poor people? I'm not going to be a gold miner in your place.
                        Quote: clerk
                        And so you only give out your biased point of view as the truth in the last instance.

                        This is the point of a sane person - you simply do not understand.
                      2. Clerk
                        Clerk 9 May 2020 14: 01 New
                        0
                        Quote: ccsr
                        Because I lived and worked then, so I do not know life from the propaganda materials of the present time.

                        And what did you live then? You may not really have lived then - here and on the Internet, everyone can write anything about himself. Memories are not any tangible evidence - a person under the guise of memories can say something that was not in reality. You are like a little child.

                        Quote: ccsr
                        No need to blunt - already in the USSR, urbanization led to the fact that rural residents became less than urban. But collective and state farms existed, and they did not bend, and from there people came to enter universities in the capital cities.

                        And how many of these people who came from state farms and collective farms to the First See and Kulturnaya to obtain a tower in relation to the total number of all collective farmers / state farmers? How many of these same "specialists" have become "personalities of historical significance"? Are they all polls? Do you know the answer? As much as today!

                        Quote: ccsr
                        So you, except how to spit in the USSR through the monitor, have not learned anything - what then is your "culture"?

                        Why did you get this that apart from criticizing the object of your sighs, I don’t know anything else?

                        Quote: ccsr
                        You are a slop specialist - why should I help such poor people? I'm not going to be a gold miner in your place.

                        So your small business in the 90s - this is slurry?

                        Quote: ccsr
                        This is the point of a sane person - you simply do not understand.

                        You are investing in sanity at all the wrong meaning. Moreover, in Germany in the late 20s and early 30s, the people were also "sane" - they chose as their leader a war hero, patriot Futterland, an unknown artist ...
                      3. ccsr
                        ccsr 9 May 2020 16: 46 New
                        +1
                        Quote: clerk
                        You are investing in sanity completely the wrong value.

                        Certainly different from that of the "Memorial" propagandists. But you continue to work out thirty pieces of silver, their sponsors will count it for you.
  • Oleg Alekseevich
    Oleg Alekseevich 6 May 2020 19: 31 New
    +1
    Quote: hhhhhhh
    "There is no such direct evidence" - Many generals remained in Russia and proved to the Motherland that they were Russians.
    I consider Denikin a traitor. Article minus.


    I totally agree.
    Denikin betrayed the tsar, having sworn allegiance to the provisional government, betrayed him and, having raised a mutiny together with Korniloai, fought against the people, having committed massive atrocities, it was not for nothing that his "White Army" was popularly nicknamed "the hornbeam army" ...

    What honor and decency can we talk about?

    Did not accept the proposal of the Nazis for cooperation? This is good, but does it put him on the same rank as the officer with General Karbyshev? And the author of the starttopic is trying to do just that.

    I did not become a collectionist - thanks, but not a hero.
    1. abc_alex
      abc_alex 7 May 2020 22: 44 New
      0
      Quote: Oleg Alekseevich
      Denikin betrayed the tsar, having sworn allegiance to the provisional government, betrayed him and, having raised a mutiny together with Korniloai, fought against the people, having committed massive atrocities, it was not for nothing that his "White Army" was popularly nicknamed "the hornbeam army" ...

      What honor and decency can we talk about?

      You just do not fully understand what the Russian front-line officer lived and thought in 1915-1917. When the war turned into a state of bloody mess, on which some perished and others profited, many were looking for the guilty at the top. And H2 with his "German wife" and Rasputin by the Russian society were suspected of dragging out the war, or even betrayal. By this time, the patriotic fervor had subsided, but the feeling of disaster, on the contrary, increased. The opinion about the need to remove H2 from the throne was very widespread, especially since his brother, who was just a much more remarkable person, was not given to George for shooting at crows. Therefore, with the honor of a Russian officer, everything was in order there, the tsars come and go, but Russia remains. In this regard, Constantine's rejection of the throne was an extremely unpleasant surprise for everyone. But the logic was the same: you need to defend the country from the Germans. First, reflect an external threat, internal affairs - then. Denikin was not a politician, he was still an officer. And the politicians of that time were mostly civilians. Yes, and everything was clear to the military: the enemy is here he is! And the main thing is the enemy.

      Naturally, in order to protect the Fatherland, you can swear to the Provisional, especially since it is the Provisional, until the founding assembly, where it is quite possible, the monarchy will be restored. As the Romanovs once brought, they could have brought others as well.

      And he fought with the Bolsheviks, too, not out of fierce hatred of the people. Just in the heat of political struggle, the Provisionals dismissed the accusation of the Bolsheviks of collusion and corruption to the Germans. And many believed! Moreover, the Bolsheviks really started talking about peace almost immediately. For many officers, the war with the Bolsheviks was not a civil war, but a continuation of the war with the Germans but the front to the east. After all, the idea of ​​a world revolution was somehow poorly spread among the Russian imperial officers :) and it was extremely difficult to believe that the Brest Peace would kill the German Reich, especially since it was voiced by some kind of "whether Olin or Lenin, you do not know who is this"?

      The desire for revenge was an imperative for Denikin.

      The war should not be waged against Russia, but exclusively to overthrow Bolshevism. You can’t mix the USSR with Russia, the Soviet regime with the Russian people, the executioner with the victim. If the war begins against Russia, for its division and Balkanization (Ukraine, the Caucasus) or for the rejection of Russian lands, then the Russian people will perceive such a war again as a Patriotic warrior. If the war is not waged against Russia and its sovereignty, if the inviolability of the historical frontiers of Russia and its rights, which ensure the vital interests of the empire, are recognized, then it is quite possible that Bolshevism will fall through a popular uprising or internal coup.

      Perhaps because he opposed the war with the Bolsheviks, he saw how they began to "win back" the lost empire. Ukraine, part of Poland, the Baltic states, part of Finland.
      And then the war with the Germans was, in his eyes, a noble and worthy cause. Here he writes in 1946.

      The first period of the war ... Defense of the Fatherland. Brilliant victory of the army. The increased prestige of our country ... The heroic epic of the Russian people. And there was no doubt in our souls then. In our thoughts, in our feelings, we were one with the people.


      But he was, sorry, a soldier, and so he remained. Political zigzags remained alien and incomprehensible to him. In 1946, he continues to think in categories of the 20th. At the same time, it demonstrates the extreme narrowness of the political horizons.

      But the Soviet government did not set its goal on the benefit of Russia, but on the world revolution, even introducing a corresponding position in the charter of the Red Army ... The Soviets, like Hitler, were going to “blow up the world” and for this purpose created such colossal weapons. Meanwhile, if there was a national Russia, with honest politics and strong alliances, there could have been no “Hitler danger”, there would have been no WWII itself ...


      And the absolute do not understand the logic of the policies of leading countries:
      In any case, it can be said with confidence that the vital interests of Russia will not suffer damage and that neither the Anglo-Saxons nor anyone else will oppose Russia, unless Bolshevism somehow grabs them by the throat.
      In anticipation of such a possibility, it is extremely important that the world does not identify Soviet power with the Russian people. Therefore, it is unacceptable to hush up the evil that it does, to refrain from condemning, and, even more so, to justify it, out of fear of allegedly "harming Russia." Nothing can harm Russia like an excuse for the Bolshevik regime and Bolshevik aggression.

      February 1, 1946 .. Before Fulton's speech Churchill had less than 2 months.
      1. ccsr
        ccsr 8 May 2020 11: 35 New
        +1
        Quote: abc_alex
        Just in the heat of political struggle, the Provisional dismissed the accusation of the Bolsheviks of conspiracy and corruption to the Germans. And many believed!

        I understand your position and in many ways I agree with you about the state of minds of officers of the time when they were at a crossroads. But how do you then explain that there were more officers serving in the Red Army than in the White Army? After all, this was historically proved on the basis of lists of personnel of officers of the tsarist army who served in the Red Army - how then to understand them? Brusilov, Shaposhnikov, Karbyshev - you cannot erase them from our history.
        1. Clerk
          Clerk 8 May 2020 17: 37 New
          0
          Quote: ccsr
          I understand your position and in many ways I agree with you about the state of minds of officers of the time when they were at a crossroads. But how do you then explain that there were more officers serving in the Red Army than in the White Army? After all, this was historically proved on the basis of lists of personnel of officers of the tsarist army who served in the Red Army - how then to understand them? Brusilov, Shaposhnikov, Karbyshev - you cannot erase them from our history.

          Why do I get the impression that you are chatting with your second account?
          PS - about the repression: the material is ready - I ask you to get acquainted (it is at the very bottom of the comments)
          1. ccsr
            ccsr 9 May 2020 12: 46 New
            +1
            Quote: clerk
            Why do I get the impression that you are chatting with your second account?

            This is not for me - since you suspect this, then most likely you should go to the specialists yourself.
            Quote: clerk
            PS - about the repression: the material is ready - I ask you to get acquainted (it is at the very bottom of the comments)

            I initially don’t believe you - you are too deceitful and uneducated type to take your writings seriously.
            1. Clerk
              Clerk 9 May 2020 13: 52 New
              0
              Quote: ccsr
              This is not for me - since you suspect this, then most likely you should go to the specialists yourself.

              Since when does the ability of people to make assumptions indicate that they need to consult a specialist? In your opinion, everyone who is able to manifest at least any thought processes is psychologically abnormal?

              Quote: ccsr
              I initially don’t believe you - you are too deceitful and uneducated type to take your writings seriously.

              You should not have expected anything else.
          2. abc_alex
            abc_alex 10 May 2020 03: 17 New
            +1
            Quote: clerk
            Why do I get the impression that you are chatting with your second account?

            Have you forgotten a snack? :)
        2. abc_alex
          abc_alex 10 May 2020 03: 16 New
          +1
          Quote: ccsr
          I understand your position and in many ways I agree with you about the state of minds of officers of the time when they were at a crossroads. But how do you then explain that there were more officers serving in the Red Army than in the White Army?


          Definitely difficult to answer. I think there are several reasons. Firstly, a change in the estate of officers. You yourself know what a disaster 14-15 years were for field officers. Cartridge and shell hunger, bayonet attacks ... By the 17th, officers from raznochintsy were already pretty good.
          Secondly, many have seen that the Bolsheviks turns. That instead of endless chatter and delaying the deadlines, they abruptly and immediately began to act. It’s not like everyone is used to, but they act.
          And yet, many were smart enough to understand who the people of an agricultural country would follow, for the Whites with their idea of ​​"turn it back" or for the Reds with their distribution of land to the peasants.

          And again, to those who saw how the army collapsed in the years 16-17, how spontaneous soldier disobedience erupted and reprisals began, the idea that the Bolsheviks were to blame for everything, which no one had really heard about in the army, might have seemed just ridiculous.
          1. ccsr
            ccsr 10 May 2020 11: 06 New
            +2
            Quote: abc_alex
            I think there are several reasons. Firstly, a change in the estate of officers. You yourself know what a disaster 14-15 years were for field officers. Cartridge and shell hunger, bayonet attacks ... By the 17th, officers from raznochintsy were already pretty good.

            Yes, this greatly influenced the officers, which became more amorphous and heterogeneous, compared with what was before the war.
            Quote: abc_alex
            And again, those who saw how the army collapses in the years 16-17,

            I think they just saw firsthand how the Russian Empire was collapsing, and understood from what was happening in the country that only the Bolsheviks could somehow unite the people and stop the complete collapse of the Fatherland. Indeed, among them there were many who saw how rotten the tsarist elite was, which is why they did not oppose the February Revolution, which marked the beginning of the great turmoil.
          2. Clerk
            Clerk 10 May 2020 12: 29 New
            +1
            Quote: abc_alex
            Secondly, many have seen what the Bolsheviks do.

            And what did they do in a couple of years? They just did what they rode on the ears. No wonder that they relied on the most illiterate and uneducated part of the population!
            1. abc_alex
              abc_alex 11 May 2020 00: 59 New
              0
              Quote: clerk
              And what did they do in a couple of years?

              Finished the war with the Germans. They decided a radical and final agrarian question. This is already 100500 times more than the Temporary.

              Quote: clerk
              No wonder that they relied on the most illiterate and uneducated part of the population!

              Which was more than 70% of the population. The whites did not understand this, so they ended the days in the Paris gateways.
              1. Octopus
                Octopus 11 May 2020 11: 48 New
                +2
                Quote: abc_alex
                Which was more than 70% of the population.

                You are absolutely right.
                Russians and blacks

                What a strange comparison? - the reader will think. “How can one of the races be placed next to one of the nations?”

                Matching is possible. Negroes later than all freed from slavery and still bear the heaviest traces of slavery - even in advanced countries, because capitalism cannot “accommodate” any other liberation except legal, and this last is in every way curbing.

                About Russians, history says that they "almost" freed from serfdom in 1861. Around the same time, after the civil war with American slaveholders, blacks in North America freed themselves from slavery.

                The liberation of American slaves occurred through a less "reformist" way than the liberation of Russian slaves.

                So now, half a century later, there are far more traces of slavery left on the Russians than on the Negroes. And it would even be more accurate if we talked not only about tracks, but also about institutions ... But in this article we will confine ourselves to one small illustration of what was said: the question of literacy. Illiteracy is known to be one of the traces of slavery. The majority of the population in a country oppressed by the Pasha, Purishkevichs, etc., cannot be literate.

                - In Russia, illiterate 73%, not counting children under 9 years of age.

                Among blacks in the North American United States, illiterates (1900) - 44,52%.


                Vladimir Ilyich lied to everyone, but not to himself. An important quality for the politician, which the white leaders were completely deprived of, with rare exceptions.
  • Ham
    Ham 6 May 2020 22: 42 New
    +1
    as the scripture says:
    "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" ...
    and Anton Ivanovich Denikin paved a pretty piece of it
  • colotun
    colotun 6 May 2020 23: 24 New
    0
    Famous General Denikin Russian patriot
  • Sniper Amateur
    Sniper Amateur 7 May 2020 04: 34 New
    -1
    Denikin deprived himself of the influx of both volunteers from Ukraine and German weapons. But - what has been done is done.

    Nope. This was called "shvidky (fast)" Berlin-Kiev-Don-Volunteers. "The Kaiser betrayed weapons in transit through the Hetmanate to the Don Krasnov Army - and those most of it - to the Volunteer Army. Which remained" all in white. "But the German guns and shells - received regularly.
    1. Zementbomber
      Zementbomber 8 May 2020 02: 44 New
      +2
      Only not "German" (the caliber, however, "not the same" - 77- and 76.2-mm, respectively), but captured Russians. smile Which "the Kaiser" - was then more than enough. wink
  • Engineer
    Engineer 8 May 2020 14: 09 New
    0
    Last Thanks to General Denikin

    Thank you, Anton Ivanovich, for cooperating with the CIA for the good of our country.
    1. Sniper Amateur
      Sniper Amateur 9 May 2020 14: 41 New
      0
      Listen, how could the CIA "cooperate" with General Denikin? Did they revive him for a while? Or did you establish a paramedic connection with the otherworld? Cool!
      1. Clerk
        Clerk 9 May 2020 15: 03 New
        +2
        Well, as it was in the 19th century, it was: a dark room, a cloudy ball in the middle of the table, sitting at this table and holding hands a bunch of mediums laughing "We appeal to your spirit!" laughing
  • Clerk
    Clerk 8 May 2020 16: 06 New
    -1
    Quote: ccsr
    From the fact that you do not have them, otherwise you would have cited the data.

    So, according to the "Memorial" society, about 4,5-4,8 million people were repressed for political reasons, including the notorious 58th article of the Criminal Code - "counter-revolutionary activity." According to the data of the regional departments of the KGB of the USSR, cited in 1988, the Soviet authorities (Cheka, GPU, OGPU, NKVD, NKGB, MGB) arrested 4 people for political reasons. A close figure - I think that your soul lies with the one that is smaller. Note - we are talking specifically about those repressed by the "troikas" for political reasons, and not about ordinary criminals - robbers, thieves, robbers, rapists, who were already in prison - they simply spent the term and released them upon its expiration. Nobody rehabilitated them. They went through the camps under the USSR as prisoners now go through corrective labor colonies. You can also add the deported peoples, dispossessed for prosperity, victims of the law "on spikelets", hunger, collectivization, peasant exile - then the figure will become completely indecent. But now we are talking about those who were "taken" in 308-487 years. So, the rehabilitation took place in several stages: the first stage began in 37. Then, for the absence of corpus delicti, 38 1961 people were rehabilitated, from 737 to 182 another 1962 1983 were rehabilitated. The second stage began at the end of 157-055: then all the repressed leaders of the CPSU (b) were rehabilitated, and many of those who were declared "class enemy" - cases were investigated for 88 people, 89 more people were rehabilitated on them. The third stage began in 856 with the signing of the Law on the Rehabilitation of Victims of Political Repression. Since its entry into force and until 582, more than 844 million people have been rehabilitated. Now he counts how many rehabilitated ones we have: 740 + 1991 = 2015 (first stage) +3,7 (second stage) +737182 (third stage) = 157055. You can also add those who were released immediately after Stalin's death in 894237 by the decree "On Amnesty" - up to one and a half million. However, according to Law 844740, those who themselves participated in the repressions did not receive rehabilitation. Now think: if the number of those rehabilitated exceeds the number of those repressed for political reasons, then it turns out not only that 3700000% of them were relatively innocent, but also that people from other categories of victims - victims of dispossession of kulaks, excessively harsh punishments for minor offenses and others.
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 9 May 2020 12: 48 New
      +1
      Quote: clerk
      So, according to the data of the "Memorial" society

      You don't have to read any further - yet another liar from the "memorial" crowd decided to engage in "enlightenment".
      All at once in the basket - this is a garbage order.
      1. Clerk
        Clerk 9 May 2020 13: 48 New
        0
        : "I have not read - but I condemn." What auto-authenticated sources can you cite in addition to your "memories"?
        By the way - did the liars also sit in the KGB?
        Everything is clear with you, Monsieur. Okay, I will not further exacerbate your insanity.
        PS - do not forget yet and put a minus on this comment, comrade intolerant of someone else's point of view!
    2. abc_alex
      abc_alex 10 May 2020 03: 45 New
      0
      Quote: clerk
      So, according to the data of the "Memorial" society

      This is alarming already.

      Quote: clerk
      Note - we are talking specifically about those repressed by the "troikas" for political reasons

      ??? More and more alarming. The political article was not an attribute of "triplets". Political articles were generally considered in the usual manner. The troikas themselves existed for a very short time from August 1937 to November 1938. And their competence included the passing of sentences in a wide range of cases, including criminal ones. There was only one condition: the materials of the investigation had to unambiguously expose the defendant. For this, a prosecutor was included in the troika. So you are either this or that. Either only in threes, or only for political articles. And then somehow the conditions were set crooked. Since from October 1, 1936 to November 1, 1938, the organs of the NKVD of the USSR arrested 1 people. Including arrested in the order of the NKVD order No. 565 (THIS IS THE TROIKS) - 702 656 person. During this time, 1 people were convicted.

      Quote: clerk
      and not about ordinary criminals - robbers, thieves, robbers, rapists who were already in prison - they just shook the term and they were released after it

      Again, somehow crooked. The fact is that robbery - the forcible theft of another's property - then could well go under a political article. The article itself (then read it carefully) considered the usual compositions but in the presence of political motives.

      Quote: clerk
      Nobody rehabilitated them.

      You are wrong. For example, those convicted under the law "seven-eight" were massively rehabilitated even before 1940.

      Quote: clerk
      if the number of those rehabilitated exceeds the number of those who were repressed for political reasons, it turns out not only that 95% of them were relatively innocent, but also that people from other categories of victims — victims of dispossession, excessively harsh punishments for petty misconduct, received an amnesty or acquittal. .

      And I still think that for a long eyeliner with tail wagging! :)
      The Korolev case. What's in it? Waste and misuse of funds. What article? Political. The specifics of applying a political article was such that it fell under itself quite a criminal offense, if, for example, social damage was done. property, or crime entailed the disruption of an important government task. Therefore, so much has been rehabilitated.
      1. Clerk
        Clerk 10 May 2020 11: 21 New
        +1
        Quote: abc_alex
        This is alarming already.

        CSSR, log in. But what about the KGB investigation data in the 88th? For some reason, you persistently strive to pretend that in addition to the Memorial data, I did not cite anything else as an example!

        Quote: abc_alex
        ??? More and more alarming. The political article was not an attribute of "triplets". Political articles were generally considered in the usual manner. The troikas themselves existed for a very short time from August 1937 to November 1938. And their competence included the passing of sentences in a wide range of cases, including criminal ones. There was only one condition: the materials of the investigation had to unambiguously expose the defendant. For this, a prosecutor was included in the troika. So you are either this or that. Either only in threes, or only for political articles. And then somehow the conditions were set crooked. Since from October 1, 1936 to November 1, 1938, the organs of the NKVD of the USSR arrested 1 people. Including arrested in the order of the NKVD order No. 565 (THIS IS THREE TROIKS) - 041 00447 people. During this time 702 people were convicted.

        I really don't have that much free time to have long discussions on this site - unlike most self-isolating ones, I have to go to work. That is why I try to write briefly, but succinctly. Regarding the "triplets" and 37-38 years, I agree with you - here I wrote in a rush without thinking. I was guided by the "Note by A. N. Yakovlev, V. A. Medvedev, V. M. Chebrikov, A. I. Lukyanov, G. P. Razumovsky, B. K. Pugo, V. A. Kryuchkov, V. I. Boldin, GL Smirnova in the Central Committee of the CPSU "On the anti-constitutional practice of the 30-40s and the beginning of the 50s" "dated 22.12.1988 - it contains the countdown date of the number of repressed - from the 30s to the 50s. So yes, it was me who made a mistake here, both temporarily and stretching the existence of the triplets for the entire period of repression.

        Quote: abc_alex
        Again, somehow crooked. The fact is that robbery - the forcible theft of another's property - then could well go under a political article. The article itself (then read it carefully) considered the usual compositions but in the presence of political motives.

        If article seven or eight is in the Criminal Code, then does it come from this that other articles in this code are political? Those who went to the gulag for theft, robbery, robbery and other unlawful actions are not much different from those who in modern times felling wood at felling or sewing mittens - for them this is the same corrective labor colony. They are ordinary criminals, and there is nothing half-political in their crimes. if they are considered repressed, and not punished for illegal actions, then the number of repressed will be about 15-20 million (in different sources - different data). Do you need it? After all, we are talking about those who were seized on denunciation or suspicion, taken to a dungeon, brought to self-accusation in "counter-revolutionary and subversive activities, espionage for foreign states, organizing or assisting the Trocyst underground" and other false accusations - and either sent to camps, along with ordinary convicts, were either used up.

        Quote: abc_alex
        You are wrong. For example, those convicted under the law "seven-eight" were massively rehabilitated even before 1940.

        Massively - how much? What sources did you get the data from? So far I have found only this discussion:
        https://ihistorian.livejournal.com/93966.html
        According to it, it turns out that about 300000 - not really that and it looks like "massively". In my opinion, those who were supposed to fight, including Zhukov, were released from the camps in an expedited manner. If there were no war, they would have rotted there.

        Quote: abc_alex
        And I still think that for a long eyeliner with tail wagging! :)

        Could you put it more bluntly - what is my "tail wag"?

        Quote: abc_alex
        The Korolev case. What's in it? Waste and misuse of funds. What article? Political. The specifics of applying a political article was such that it fell under itself quite a criminal offense, if, for example, social damage was done. property, or crime entailed the disruption of an important government task. Therefore, so much has been rehabilitated.

        As they say, there would be a person - but there will always be an article. Those. in your opinion the "political" background in his case was fair in relation to him? I am also silent about the so-called "misappropriation" - read this: https://aviator9298.livejournal.com/152279.html

        All the same, it’s amusing to watch the Stalinists and Communists think when their whole country is the enemies of the people (i.e. their own enemies), and the only immaculate, infallible and the only icon of justice is Stalin.
        1. Clerk
          Clerk 10 May 2020 11: 50 New
          +1
          Quote: clerk
          All the same, it’s amusing to watch the Stalinists and Communists think when their whole country is the enemies of the people (i.e. their own enemies), and the only immaculate, infallible and the only icon of justice is Stalin.

          Continuation. The peasants for you are enemies (otherwise they will think of some kind of counter-revolution - you have to starve them!), Prosperous peasants aka kulaks are enemies (the so-called Polish degenerates, bourgeois individual farmers), the intelligentsia are enemies (as he said in his time lisp: "the intelligentsia is the shit of the nation" - he said so about domestic scientists, writers, artists, musicians!), the military are enemies (they are constantly plotting some kind of coups - you did not have any nerves with them at all!) workers are enemies (so enemies that all the founding fathers of the RSFSR and the USSR who made the revolution were eliminated). All your people were an enemy, whom you tried in every possible way to "defeat". The whole problem was in you - among the people you saw your main and potential enemy, who could deprive you of power over him. And that is why every time you strive to bring discord among the people, set it off between each other, constantly avert your eyes from your attempts to sit on our necks with your old song about "oligarchs", "corruption" and "impoverished Russia."
        2. abc_alex
          abc_alex 11 May 2020 01: 42 New
          0
          Quote: clerk
          I actually do not have much free time to conduct lengthy discussions on this site - unlike most self-isolated people, I have to go to work.

          I, if you pay attention to the time of fasting, also do not write during working hours.
          :)

          Quote: clerk
          So yes, I made a mistake here

          +100 to you in reputation.

          Quote: clerk
          If article seven-eight is in the Criminal Code, does it really come to them that the rest of the articles in this code are political? Those who went to the gulag for theft, robbery, robbery and other illegal actions are not much different from those who in modern times cut down forests on logging or sew mittens - for them this is the same forced labor colony


          You misunderstand the practice of the application at that time. "Political" articles considered quite classical criminal structures. For example, the same waste. The PURPOSE and the object to which the harm was inflicted gave a political coloring. If the theft was committed from a private person, the article was criminal, and if from a collective farm or state. enterprise - could be political. In the camp for a political and a criminal could sit for the same composition. If the second stole a bag of grain from a peasant from a barn, and the first from a collective farm.

          And by the way, let's all the same, be serious: prisoners were not sent to the GULAG. In the same way, no one is being sent to the FSIN now. They are sent to a camp or to a special. settlement, to prison. Let's not be like semi-literate foreigners and "liberal sensation seekers".

          Quote: clerk
          We are talking about those who were seized on denunciation or suspicion, taken to a dungeon, brought to self-accusation in "counter-revolutionary and subversive activities, espionage in favor of foreign states, organizing or assisting the Trocyst underground" and other false accusations - and either sent to camps, along with ordinary convicts, were either used up.


          So most of the "political" cases began with a denunciation. Actually cunning fellow citizens quickly realized that it was easy to apply "political" articles to their own benefit. The same Korolev case began with a denunciation and not at all about Korolev, by the way. And if his case is considered an ordinary one, then you can see: the investigation ultimately set aside all political accusations, leaving economic ones. And the political coloring of the case was given by the fact that an important state project was put under the disruption.

          Quote: clerk
          Massively - how much? What sources did you get the data from? So far I have found only this discussion:

          Pykhalov, Igor Vasilievich. "Law on five ears" // Terra Humana: Scientific and theoretical journal. - St. Petersburg.
          This work provides year-round data on convicts and serving sentences. In 1940, this article served 25 people throughout the USSR. Moreover, since the adoption of the "seven-eight" law, about 544 thousand people have been convicted under it. Moreover, most in 180, and in 1933, more than 1935 thousand were served on it.

          Quote: clerk
          As they say, there would be a person - but there will always be an article. Those. in your opinion, the "political" background in his case was fair to him? I am also silent about the so-called "misappropriation" - read this:


          I saw copies of court materials.
          The court does not operate with the concept of "just or not fair". He operates only with the concept "legal - not legal". The investigation proved waste and negligence. The political composition was drawn to him for having put the most important state under the disruption. order. Could the court have done otherwise? No, the investigation lacked competence in physics, the only available expert was the initiator and informer.
          And from an ethical point of view, the issue is complex. On the one hand, a young scientist, researcher, might not be able to keep accounts. And on the other hand, should there be responsibility for those who spend other people's money?

          Quote: clerk
          All the same, it’s amusing to watch the Stalinists and Communists think when their whole country is the enemies of the people (i.e. their own enemies), and the only immaculate, infallible and the only icon of justice is Stalin.

          Stalin was never mentioned in my posts. Otherwise, you wrote bullshit in this quote. And in the next post, too. I am not you. in my posts, I do not express my opinion. I am only correcting the factual.
          And let's not get down to throwing feces.
        3. Zementbomber
          Zementbomber 11 May 2020 01: 43 New
          +1
          it was expeditedly released from the camps of those who were to fight - including Zhukov.

          STA-A ???? belay belay
  • ecolog
    ecolog 11 May 2020 15: 19 New
    0
    Krasnov lost power because his bet on Germany did not materialize - the Germans lost the WWII.
    Denikin, waging a civil war, essentially continued the world war on the side of the Entente. And the Entente supported White with an eye to Russia’s return to war with Germany. When the war ended, White became unnecessary and merged.
    You may not want someone else's "interference" in the war unleashed by you as much as you like, but since the whites did not have their own rear and defense, they were entirely dependent on external forces. Denikin was not "friends" with the Germans, but with the British and Americans completely, and if they had attacked the USSR, and in the 20s it was quite real, he would not have stayed away.
  • EvilLion
    EvilLion 13 May 2020 08: 39 New
    0
    The usual white-bellied who sold the country of Entente. That's the whole tale of Denikin.