One more last tale - and my annals are over


Kiev Pechersky Monastery. Miniature under 1051 from the Radziwill Chronicle, XV century


... and may the Lord give to everyone according to his truth and his truth ...
26 Samuel 23:XNUMX


Historical science against pseudoscience. This is the last material on the subject of our annals. Surely under this material, as in the comments to the previous article, statements will again appear in the spirit, they say, "the Germans wrote them to us." One wants to exclaim: until! But I decided to do it differently. It's better. Since there is absolutely nothing in the texts of the annals to hurt our honor and dignity, I decided to rewrite one of the annalistic texts myself - in the same language, in the same words. This is an example of what could be done with the texts if you want to defame us. True, I have not seen such texts.

They will tell me: what about the notorious “Calling ...” However, if you read it carefully, it will become clear: there is nothing reprehensible there either. In Russia there is an institution of reign, and, therefore, an early feudal state. There are cities ... And now a foreigner is invited to the place of the prince, and ... that's all. And from this someone made a whole theory? That is, a circumstance, which is not worth mentioning, is so insignificant, for some it serves as a source of "theory". It’s funny if it weren’t so sad. But, however, now we will talk about something else. About how it would be possible to change the text of the story about the same Battle of the Ice, if the "malicious German academics" would want to do this.

The most detailed and detailed story about the Battle of the Ice is in the Novgorod 1st annals of the elder edifice - and here we rewrite it ...

“In the summer of 6750. Go prince Oleksandr from Novgorodtsi and with his brother Andrei and from Nizovtsi to the Chyadsky land on Nemtsi and all the way to Pskov. And drive out Prince Pskov, seized Nemtsi and Chyud, and, having fettered, sweat to Novgorod, and you will go to Chyud. And as if being on the earth, let the regiment go into prosperity, and Domash Tverdislavich and Kerbet were in the runway, and I sat down Nemtsi and Chyud at the bridge, and lost one. And you killed that Nemtsi Domash, the brother of a posadnik, and beat him with him, and you took him with your hands, and you resorted to the prince in pursuit of the prince. And God forbid them for many of their sins. The prince, however, climbed up to the lake, while Nemtsi and Chyud went about them. Having seen Nemtsi and Chyud, Prince Oleksandr and Novgorodtsi, and having set up a regiment on Chyudskoye Lake, on Uzmen, at Voronya Kameni. And Oleksandr grabbed the fear and the speech of God help thy servants before the brothers of your holy cross. And we flew that one to the regiment Nemtsi and Chyud, and the spirit-filled warrior erupted in a pig through the regiment. And God and Saint Sophia and the holy martyrs Boris and Gleb, even for the sake of Novgorod, Prince Oleksandr could not help but were great sinners and people like him. And the padeh was one and the same, and the Nemtsi had 50 deliberate governors of Novgorodtsi, and the prince Oleksandr himself and his death with him who had escaped and had come to Novgorod and shut up and were in sorrow. And with a month of April 5, the memory of the holy martyr Claudius, the praise of the Holy Virgin, and the Sabbath. ”
It turned out well, right ?! This is how the “Germans” should be written. And they?..


Synodal list of Novgorod First Annals (GIM)

And now we continue the story about what our most famous chronicles are. The most important thing is their content, which is different in each annals. Which, again, could not be reproduced by any “counterfeiters”. Even our people are able to get confused in the peculiarities of language and content, styles and manner of presentation, and for foreigners all these subtleties and nuances are a solid filkin letter. Moreover, even for a lot of money they would not be able to find people in Russia who could do this work with their souls. No, they would have taken the money from foreigners, of course, but they would have done the work somehow. We often do it for ourselves somehow, and to try for unchristians, and they will do it anyway - and this is the opinion we have always had with regard to foreigners! In addition, there are simply a lot of subtleties in the content of the annals.

Here, for example, how things were in Novgorod, where the boyar party won. We read the record of the Novgorod First Annals about the expulsion of Vsevolod Mstislavich in 1136 - and what do we see? The real indictment against this prince. But this is just one article from a whole set. Because after 1136, all annals were revised. Before that, it was conducted under the auspices of Vsevolod and his father, Mstislav the Great. Even its very name, “Russian temporary”, was remade into “Sofia temporary”, to emphasize that this chronicle is kept at the Cathedral of St. Sophia in Novgorod. Anything to emphasize the independence of Novgorod with respect to Kiev, and the fact that he can elect the princes and drive them away of his own free will. That is, they just overlooked one article, right? It turns out so!

In each annals, the political idea was often expressed very specifically. So, in the arch of 1200, compiled at the end of the construction of a stone wall to protect the Vydubychi Monastery from erosion of its foundation by the Dnieper waters, Abbot Moses praised the Kiev prince Rurik Rostislavich, who had given money to her. According to the customs of that time, the abbot addresses him to the prince: “Accept our rudeness scripture, as a gift of words to praise the virtues of your reign.” And the "sovereign power" shines "more than (more) celestial stars", and "not only in the Russian ends of knowledge, but also far away in the sea, for throughout the whole earth passed the glory of Christ-loving deeds", and "kyan" (that is Kiev), "are now standing on the wall" and "fun in their souls enters." That is, when necessary, they wrote to the princes anything, including blatant flattery. But how can this be "faked" in relation to the construction of this wall? Rewrite the chronicle and indicate that he did not build it? So here she is ... And if he built, then well done anyway!

Interestingly, the annals were an official document. When the Novgorodians, for example, concluded a "series", that is, the most ordinary contract with the new prince, they always reminded him of the "Yaroslavlich Letters" and the rights that belonged to them and were recorded just in the Novgorod chronicles. The Russian princes carried the chronicles with them to the Horde and there, according to them, they proved to which of them what was supposed to be. So, Prince Yuri, the son of Dmitry Donskoy, who reigned in Zvenigorod, proved his right to reign in Moscow “with chroniclers and old lists, and with his father’s spiritual (will)”. Well, people who could "speak the annals", that is, they knew the content of the annals very well, were at a premium.


Tolstoy list of Sofia's first annals. Meeting of the Manuscript Division of the Russian National Library

Moreover, it is very important that the annals involuntarily give us valuable information about everyday life, and sometimes they help us to understand the spiritual world of people so far away from us. For example, it is believed that the role of women at that time was belittled. But here is the deed of Volyn prince Vladimir Vasilkovich, who was the nephew of prince Daniil of Galich. His testament. He was mortally ill, he understood that the end was not far off, and he wrote a will concerning his wife and stepdaughter. Note that in Russia there was such a custom: the princess, after the death of her husband, was usually tonsured a nun. But what do we read in the letter of Prince Vladimir?

The letter first lists those cities and villages that he gave to the princess “by his stomach,” that is, by death. And at the very end, he writes: “If he wants to go to the blueberries, let him go, if he does not want to go, but how she likes. I can’t stand up to see who will repair (do) on my stomach. ” Although Vladimir appointed a guardian to his stepdaughter, he nevertheless ordered: “Do not give her in captivity to anyone”. Here you have the tradition, here you have the disenfranchised women in Russia.

One more last tale - and my annals are over
Everything is published today - take it and read it!

There was another feature of the chronicles, which at the same time makes them difficult for understanding and forgery. The fact is that chroniclers used to insert excerpts from other people's works, moreover, of various genres. These are the teachings, and sermons, and the lives of the saints, and historical tales. Whoever liked what he inserted, sometimes having some kind of plan, or even simply “wanting to show his education”. That is why the annals - this is really a huge and diverse encyclopedia of ancient Russian life. That's just taken to study it skillfully. “If you want to find out everything, read the chronicler of the old Rostov,” wrote Suzdal Bishop Simon at the beginning of the XNUMXth century in his essay “Kiev Pechersky Patericon”.


"Chronicler of Choice" on the columns. Moscow chronicler of the XVII century. on the columns. Meeting of the Manuscript Division of the Russian National Library

It happens (although this is uncharacteristic) that the chroniclers report in the text the details of their personal life: "That same summer they put me in the priest." Such a clarifying record about himself was made by the priest of one of the Novgorod churches Herman Voyota (Vojata - abbreviated from the pagan name Voeslav).


Chronicler Jonah Solovetsky. Meeting of the Manuscript Division of the Russian National Library

Found in the annals of the text and completely common expressions, and often about princes. “But he lied,” it is written about the prince in a Pskov annals.

Well, and, of course, samples of oral folk art are found all the time in them. When, for example, a Novgorod chronicler tells how one of the posadniks was removed from his post, he writes this way: “Whoever digs a hole under another will fall into it himself.” "Fall", but not "fall." Then they said just that.


Tver Chronicle Collection. Stroevsky list. Collection of M. P. Pogodin, No. 1414. L. 14. Collection of the Manuscript Department of the Russian National Library

Writing chronicle texts was hard work, and rewriting them even harder. And the monks' scribes then made posts in the fields (!) In which they complained about their fate: “Oh, oh, I’m hurting my head, I can’t write.” Or: "A dashing feather, they can not help writing." About a lot of mistakes made by inattention, you can not talk!

A very long and very unusual in content postscript was made by the monk Lavrentiy, at the end of his work:

“The merchant rejoices having made a bribe, and the bailiff, helmsman, has come, and he has come to his fatherland; the book writer is also happy, having reached the end of books. Likewise, the thin, unworthy and many-sinful servant of God, Laurentius of mine ... And now, gentlemen, fathers and brothers, where (if) where he described or rewritten, or did not finish, read (read), correcting God by dividing (for God's sake), and not damn it, the books (because) the books are shabby, and the mind is young, has not reached. ”

In order for the young mind to “reach” everything that needs to be reached, one must begin by reading the complete collection of Russian annals published by us long ago. Their texts are both in print and in digital form. Studying them requires a lot of work, but the result will not be long in coming. Daring itself helps fate!
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  1. Basil50 8 May 2020 06: 01 New
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    Historical disputes are akin to passions in a stadium. A lot of fans and everyone is worried, some shouting requiring modern gladiators to perform exactly how they (the fans) imagine this or that development of the match. All specialists and everyone sincerely root for their
    Thanks to the author. But nevertheless, there are many questions to which there is no answer and WE all welcome the scientific (evidence-based) consideration of historical events. But too often in response we hear either outright rudeness or a refusal to even hear doubt .................................... ..
    It was funny to watch a TV show with M Zadornov on the subject of history. Especially funny there pop in a cassock jumped. Continuous drooling indignation ...................
    1. bober1982 8 May 2020 06: 57 New
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      Quote: Vasily50
      It was funny to watch a TV show with M Zadornov on the subject of history. Especially funny there pop in a cassock jumped

      Then it was no laughing matter, before his death M. Zadornov brought repentance to the Church, was unified in the Moscow church of the Life-Giving Trinity
    2. Basil50 8 May 2020 07: 54 New
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      Weak people, and then M Zadornov never opposed Christianity.
      It is a shame when fattened priests on the TV are talking about * abstinence * then about * conscience *.
      There is one pop ALL WOMEN RUSSIA called prostitutes, and nothing. The priests giggled on the TV and nothing.
      The way priests have privatized the story is generally prohibitively cynical. And they don’t calm down.
      .
      1. 3x3zsave 8 May 2020 08: 07 New
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        And they don’t calm down.
        "It is, they are frowning! The most frowning is coming!" (C)
      2. bober1982 8 May 2020 08: 49 New
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        Quote: Vasily50
        It is a shame when fattened priests on the TV are talking about * abstinence * then about * conscience *.

        I don’t know what to tell you.
        It may be appropriate to recall a popular saying - Shame is not smoke, the eye does not hurt.
      3. Olgovich 8 May 2020 10: 01 New
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        Quote: Vasily50
        It's a shame when fattened priests on the TV are talking about * abstinence * then about * conscience *

        you have something to do with priests that you are ashamed of .... them? belay lol
        Quote: Vasily50
        How privatized history priests it is generally prohibitively cynical.

        Is that you about Russian chroniclesthat were written during centuries, basically, monasteries and metropolises? belay

        Do you have another, correct NON-PRICED version of the story? belay lol Tell her! yes

        This, apparently, the Communists wrote non-cynical, right?

        It was they who pierced the depths of time with a sharp Marxist gaze and told us the truth, right? lol

        According to the articlethe author is absolutely right that it’s absolutely impossible to fake a huge array of documents: for this it should have worked huge scientific institutewhich will develop a historical concept will link THOUSAND nuances of public, church, state, cultural life into a single whole and about what a HUGE amount of paper documents would have to remain — correspondence, instructions, proposals. options. approval, etc.

        And there is NOTHING-except for empty talk about "fakes."

        plus article hi
        1. ee2100 8 May 2020 10: 40 New
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          Only the author speaks about fakes.
          1. kalibr 8 May 2020 11: 07 New
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            Quote: ee2100
            Only the author speaks about fakes.

            Are you probably on the site recently? As for fakes, they are constantly talking here ... You need to read not only your comments.
            1. vladcub 8 May 2020 12: 24 New
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              V. Oh, so other people's comments are boring and once
              1. kalibr 8 May 2020 12: 27 New
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                Yes, but there are such interesting ones ...
            2. ee2100 8 May 2020 14: 20 New
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              No, not recently. It surprises me that it hurts you so much. All that happens here is the same storm in a glass of water. All the same, everyone will remain in their opinion. Why so much strength and emotion?
              1. kalibr 8 May 2020 16: 34 New
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                Quote: ee2100
                No, not recently. It surprises me that it hurts you so much. All that happens here is the same storm in a glass of water. All the same, everyone will remain in their opinion. Why so much strength and emotion?

                Why did you decide that at least something hurts me here? In the words of the Duke of Beaufort, "it will diversify me."
        2. vladcub 8 May 2020 12: 40 New
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          Olgovich, as everyone knows, Miller "squeezed" the true history of Russia at Lomonosov. Fomenko managed to save one copy of the Veles Book.
        3. rich 8 May 2020 15: 55 New
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          If anyone wants to read the "Tale of Bygone Years", or Lavrentievskaya in the Old Russian original with parallel translation, I ask the Library of Literature of Ancient Russia: http://lib2.pushkinskijdom.ru/tabid-4869
      4. vladcub 8 May 2020 12: 22 New
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        "The way priests have been privatized" in more detail:: What? Where? When and how "priests privatized"?
    3. Hantengri 8 May 2020 08: 44 New
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      Quote: Vasily50

      Historical disputes are akin to passions in a stadium.

      The debate on historical topics with alternatively gifted is more like a game of chess with a dove. For the “gifted” differences between the football field and the chessboard do not understand, in principle.
      Quote: Vasily50
      But nevertheless, there are many questions to which there is no answer and WE all welcome the scientific (evidence-based) consideration of historical events. But too often in response we hear either outright rudeness or a refusal to even hear doubt .................................... ..

      And such disgrace is happening not only in the field of history!
      After all, if a certain, especially talented, adherent of the Theory of Flat Earth begins to intrusively present his "scientific" arguments to a representative of official, for example, astronomy, then he also risks learning a lot about his mental abilities.
      This is outrageous and unacceptable! am
      Down with the arbitrariness of official scholars! laughing
      1. 3x3zsave 8 May 2020 09: 05 New
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        What can we say about mathematicians! Any educated person knows that the expression "square root of minus one" does not matter, and these bastards came up with "imaginary numbers! Fsevrut !!!
        1. Hantengri 8 May 2020 09: 13 New
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          Any sane person who knows how to hold a shovel and is not blind knows that there are no square roots at all. They are all round!
          And the Anunaki came up with square ones to fool the heads of ordinary people.
          1. Pane Kohanku 8 May 2020 11: 03 New
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            Any sane person who knows how to hold a shovel and is not blind knows that there are no square roots at all. They are all round!

            Yeah, and the worms breed by a shovel (note to zoologists!). In principle, with a shovel, it is possible to decompose a mathematical term into a polynomial. drinks
            1. Hantengri 8 May 2020 11: 14 New
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              Quote: Pan Kohanku
              In principle, with a shovel, it is possible to decompose a mathematical term into a polynomial.

              And not only mathematical! drinks
              1. Pane Kohanku 8 May 2020 11: 21 New
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                And not only mathematical!

                and not just a shovel! drinks
            2. Mihaylov 8 May 2020 11: 30 New
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              Quote: Pan Kohanku
              In principle, with a shovel, it is possible to decompose a mathematical term into a polynomial.

              Can! but it’s more convenient with a checker: “crying, but sharpening a checker ...”
              1. Pane Kohanku 8 May 2020 11: 38 New
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                Can! but it’s more convenient with a checker: “crying, but sharpening a checker ...”

                in our school version a kitchen knife appeared ... wink
          2. Aviator_ 8 May 2020 12: 35 New
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            And mathematicians came up with a square trinomial! Here even Indians with their Kama Sutra cannot imagine anything.
            1. Pane Kohanku 8 May 2020 13: 07 New
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              And mathematicians came up with a square trinomial!

              Well, you say, Sergey! wassat While imagining, I broke my brains. laughing Urgently - to the Kunstkamera, in that very section with alcoholic wonders, as Tsar Peter bequeathed! drinks
              1. Krasnoyarsk 9 May 2020 10: 43 New
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                Quote: Pan Kohanku
                And mathematicians came up with a square trinomial!

                Well, you say, Sergey! wassat While imagining, I broke my brains. laughing Urgently - to the Kunstkamera, in that very section with alcoholic wonders, as Tsar Peter bequeathed! drinks

                I read comments and admire, - humor gushes directly.
                And no one asked the author a question - why did the “Germans" -
                = But how can this “fake” be applied to the construction of this wall? Rewrite the chronicle and indicate that he did not build it? So here she is ... And if he built, then well done anyway! =
                What's the point of this? What is the point of removing the construction of this wall from the annals? Would this somehow affect the reading of Russian history? No way! But the invitation of a foreigner to reign, and even with the mention that, they say, we ourselves can’t put things in order, and how it affects them. Shpakovsky now and then sprinkles ashes on his head - oh, what unlucky we are!
                And stigmatizes the "false historians." Are there such people? How can science be deceiving? Science can develop in the right direction and in the wrong direction. And we must prove that this direction is wrong, and not call it pseudoscience. And since - pseudoscience, then there is no need to prove anything. The shortcut was hung and the whole short-lived.
                The author is probably not familiar with the expression - "the phrase is taken out of context."
                So from the chronicle, when rewriting, it is easy to pull out one phrase and insert another and the reading of the whole topic will be changed. And for this there is no need to “maintain an entire institution” of scribes.
                But you continue to admire the "true" "historian", continue.
            2. Hantengri 8 May 2020 14: 09 New
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              Quote: Aviator_

              And mathematicians came up with a square trinomial! Here even Indians with their Kama Sutra cannot imagine anything.

              Well ... it’s just they warming up! Then, having summed up a little, they took another 200 each and came up with a cubic four-term and, from that moment, they were no longer stopped ... laughing Here, even Kama himself could not imagine such a disgrace in the morning or in the evening.
        2. Trilobite Master 8 May 2020 14: 08 New
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          Quote: 3x3zsave
          What can we say about mathematicians!

          I agree!
          If you approach it from the point of view of logic and common sense, then you can immediately see that mathematicians are lying!
          The example is old, but very revealing.
          5x5 = 25, right?
          6x6 = 36, right? So, I ask?
          Now the question is: how much will 7x7 be?
          Any normal sane person understands: 7x7 = 47. But not to mathematicians. They are mathematicians - they can. They have 7x7 = 49. laughing I repeat, not 47, but 49! Where is the logic? Where is the common sense? wassat 25 - 36 - 47. Is it logical? It is logical! 25 - 36 - 49. Where is the logic? But these are mathematicians. request And I don’t have to rub anything about arithmetic. I do not know such a word and do not want to know. Here is a simple logical task and I don’t need to produce superfluous entities here, arithmetic-shmarifmetika, better remember Occam's razor.
          Or take addition. How much will it be if you add one and zero? Literally, for very smart mathematicians I will write in mathematical language 1 + 0. How much do you think? From the point of view of normal logic, 1 + 0 = 10. It is obvious. But mathematicians have their own logic, they have 1 + 0 = ... pubs! .. 1!
          I repeat - 1 + 0 = 1! wassat Where's the zero? Where did you get the toe? It was just after all! This is how mathematicians do what they want with mathematics. We want - we put a zero, we want - we remove. A new government will come - we’ll put it, but for now let it hang somewhere somewhere in the archives of Pythagoras.
          Here is another example. How mathematicians do division.
          Let's try to split eight in half. And right away the question that not one mathematician does not cover, not one mathematics textbook has this, but why? An important question - how to share? Along or across? The result depends on the answer to this question. If you divide "8" along, it turns out "3" and "inverse 3", a total of six. If across, it turns out "0" and "0", in sum - infinity. There is a difference? Mathematicians, in order to get around this issue and confuse normal people, came up with a special sign for division - "/". Do you understand? Not along, not across, not ours, not yours. And, of course, they end up with what they need - 4. Where does the “4” come from? Why is "4"? Unclear. But they can, they are mathematicians.
          In short, official mathematics is a complete deception. And this is only at the elementary school level, even kindergarten. Imagine what they have further fancy there? Square roots (where did you see such people?), Polynomials (fu, shame!), These, like them ... holorithms (solid pornography!) - what they want is what they do, villains.
          In short, all math is nonsense. Just as those in power want to turn it around, so mathematicians turn it around.
          1. 3x3zsave 8 May 2020 18: 38 New
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            And if you lie "8" on your side and split in half, there will be two infinities! wassat
            1. Trilobite Master 8 May 2020 18: 44 New
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              Mathematicians even show off here. They say fold. From! (with)
              1. Shahno 8 May 2020 18: 46 New
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                Maybe they show off properly ..
                Ps. It’s me from the point of view that if you haven’t thought of it yet, you are a good historian but a mathematician so-so .... laughing That I am purely empirical ...
              2. 3x3zsave 8 May 2020 18: 57 New
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                Ага.
                "-How much is the laying of a square meter of tile in St. Petersburg?
                -This depends on the installation method.
                -Explain?
                Well, if you put tiles, then from 1000 rubles, and if you lay down, then you can fit into 400. "
                1. Catfish 9 May 2020 05: 55 New
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                  Hello Anton. Regarding the tile, yesterday my PM Szegoga Phil sent me in a personal message.

                  * The Moscow Mayor congratulated the housing and communal services workers on their professional holiday.
                  * Eshelme kuhelme! * - Sobyanin said. *
                  Sobyanin goes out to the balcony and admires Moscow. The tiles are in the tiles, the parks are in the tile, the Moscow river is in the tile, the Kremlin is in the tile! He raises his eyes to the sky. From there a thunderous voice:
                  -Do not even think!!!!*.
                  Happy holiday drinks
                  1. Phil77 9 May 2020 06: 37 New
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                    Good morning Konstantin!
                    Happy Holiday, Great Victory Day !!!
                    After:
                    * On March 23, Sobyanin issued a decree on the self-isolation of people over 65 years old. On March 24, Putin visited the village of Kommunarka.
                    Oh, Putin, oh, and a rebel! He already has a mayor’s decree, not a decree! * drinks
                    1. Catfish 9 May 2020 07: 10 New
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                      Hello, Sergey!
                      And you with the Victory Day!
                      I always remember the magnificent film “Scout's Feat” and the famous Major Fedotov’s toast at a banquet at General Kühn:
                      - For victory ... For OUR victory!

                      For victory!!! drinks
          2. Edward Vashchenko 9 May 2020 17: 34 New
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            Bravo! Brvvo!
            Very intelligible
      2. Pane Kohanku 8 May 2020 11: 01 New
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        Down with the arbitrariness of official scholars!

        To the bonfire of them! am In the name of the great dupernos! (Flat world, Cthulhu, Tartaria - insert the desired). wink
        The debate on historical topics with alternatively gifted is more like a game of chess with a dove.

        Igor, I don’t understand why some of us are trying to prove something to them (alternatively gifted) ... hi
        1. Hantengri 8 May 2020 11: 10 New
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          [quote = Pane Kohanku] [quote]
          Igor, I don’t understand why some of us are trying to prove something to them (alternatively gifted) ... hi[/ Quote]
          Not enlightenment for, but purely for fun.
          This is on the one hand. And on the other hand, they without a “disinfection” will begin to multiply, worse than kronavirus. hi
          1. Pane Kohanku 8 May 2020 11: 25 New
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            Not enlightenment for, but purely for fun.

            Yes, Mikhail has already honed their syllable and knowledge to such an extent that it’s time for him to hang on the avatar of “twice the best site commentator”.laughing Another year of admonition of haplogroup members - and will be generally hung with titles, like dear Leonid Ilyich. fellow drinks
            And on the other hand, they without a “disinfection” will begin to multiply, worse than kronavirus.

            Offer to communicate with like in a mask, and then wash your hands? wink in principle .. some may spill mud so that it’s really better to wash .. what
            1. Trilobite Master 8 May 2020 14: 38 New
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              Quote: Pan Kohanku
              Mikhail has already perfected their syllable and knowledge,

              Yeah, syllable and knowledge ...
              I grew myself a huge gall bladder, you want to say. And in addition to it, poisonous glands behind the cheeks and stinking breath, such that women wandering here, priests frown ...
              Twice do not. And because of the need to meet expectations, my face will be blown away by poison so that it will not fit into the monitor, even though it’s wide and wider than the TV.
              But anyway, thanks for the kind word. smile hi
              1. Pane Kohanku 8 May 2020 14: 46 New
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                such that women wandering here, priests frown ...

                no, ladies adore you wink and if there is an unresolved dispute, there is only one subject. laughing
                And because of the need to meet expectations, my face will be blown away by poison so that it will not fit into the monitor, even though it’s wide and wider than the TV.

                the main thing is not to bury oneself. And then you will believe in your own infallibility and exclusive destiny, and argue something left, as one famous (lost edge) zombie worker. stop however, it does not threaten you! hi
                But anyway, thanks for the kind word.

                Tribute to! You also helped me a lot, Michael. drinks
          2. Trilobite Master 8 May 2020 14: 20 New
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            Quote: HanTengri
            Not enlightenment for, but purely for fun.
            This is on the one hand. And on the other hand, they without a “disinfection” will begin to multiply, worse than kronavirus.

            That's it!
            But for enlightenment too, for they are not alone who read what is written to them.
            1. Pane Kohanku 8 May 2020 15: 01 New
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              But for enlightenment too, for they are not alone who read what is written to them.

              as I usually say to Vyacheslav our Olegovich, "While listening to him, others would certainly sob, and someone even believed ..." drinks The syllable is brilliance, Michael! So what about the sect with the preacher? wink
              1. Trilobite Master 8 May 2020 15: 22 New
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                Quote: Pan Kohanku
                what about the sect with the preacher?

                Yes, the same as with the golden age of the carriages with red beards. smile Satisfying all the lusts of an intellectually developed person is generally very expensive, and if he also has a fantasy, as we have with you - well, figs, this threatens a catastrophe of a planetary scale. Let everything go as it should - without a golden age and sermons.
                1. Pane Kohanku 8 May 2020 15: 29 New
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                  Let everything go as it should - without a golden age and sermons.

                  ... without strollers and beards ... what without stakes and string ... sad (and burst into tears of hysteria! crying )
                  1. Fat
                    Fat 8 May 2020 16: 28 New
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                    Quote: Pan Kohanku
                    Let everything go as it should - without a golden age and sermons.

                    ... without strollers and beards ... what without stakes and string ... sad (and burst into tears of hysteria! crying )

                    In the middle ... nie The best option .... Well ... Go to the local history ....
                    They are all not adequate ....
                    1. Pane Kohanku 8 May 2020 16: 52 New
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                      Go to the local history ....

                      local history closed! sad There are only self-insulated barbecue! request and vodka by correspondence! drinks
                      1. Fat
                        Fat 8 May 2020 18: 01 New
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                        Ha! .. Well, I will not support even once! Have some tea! Thanks for the mood "neighing"
                        Sincerely ... It's sad to me ... I remember my father .. I wanted to ... Write a couple of lines ... I have accumulated a lot of notes by the translator .. It doesn’t fit in any way. Father rarely told the same peasants, in the billiard room, how His regiment was kept. Like his battalion. How is his mortar calculation ....
                      2. Pane Kohanku 8 May 2020 20: 55 New
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                        I wanted to ... Write a couple of lines ... Accumulated a lot of translator's notes ..

                        Alexey Borisovich, I wish you to write this tomorrow. In your own words. As it is. Nevertheless, the holiday is great. They all, living and dead, did one thing - Victory. soldier
                        Father rarely told peasants

                        My grandmother didn’t tell anything at all, although she was a partisan ...
                    2. Fat
                      Fat 8 May 2020 18: 04 New
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                      Pass the formula! We will light all one on May 9
  2. Bar1 8 May 2020 10: 06 New
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    -12
    And in the place of the prince they invite a foreigner, and ... that's it. And from this someone made a whole theory? That is, a circumstance, which is not worth mentioning, is so insignificant, for some it serves as a source of "theory". It’s funny if it weren’t so sad.


    and that's it!
    Like the fact that a foreigner becomes at the helm of Russian statehood for Shpakovsky does not mean anything. Well, it’s nothing for him, but there is something for others. Not only is it a lie, in fact, i.e. the old German falsification of history, as well as falsification from Shpakovsky, like this is nothing, it’s normal. It’s nothing in the eyes, but behind the eyes they usually point with a finger.
    So the Varangian Rurik came by invitation to Russia and began to reign with the Russians, where did he come from? From Novgorod, which stands on the Volkhov River near Lake Ilmen.
    The debate over the fact that Novgorod is not where Fomenko and Nosovsky should have been raised and such arguments are made, I will refresh the memory of those who forgot them.
    -According to OI Novgorod, this is a place of lively international trade, but the Volkhov river’s misfortune is very shallow and rapids and cannot serve the way from the Vikings to the Greeks. There are no such rapids especially by summer, when the Volkhov can go on foot to ford. and troubles with such trade. Therefore, the appearance of a trading city there is generally in doubt.
    -In this Novgorod there is no famous Yaroslavl yard, but there is a site of 20 acres, which does not correspond to the annals.
    -no prince's palace, where did he go? And indeed, archaeological finds for the capital of Ancient Russia simply do not meet expectations.
    - Well, there are mentions in the annals that we say Moscow and Novgorod were connected by a trade road, but they cannot find traces of this road, it is not.
    -the annals say that the princes famously moved from Rostov to Kostroma, through Novgorod !!? This is dumbness of a higher order, it cannot be.
    And where was this Novgorod? On the Volga, now this city is called Yaroslavl.
    I’ll give an Amsterdam map not dated, possibly the 17th century, of the state of Muscovy. We see several names of Novgorod, on Volkhov and two on the Volga. This is the so-called preserved transition map, when the moved name corresponds to two places, the old and the new. On the subsequent maps, the old name is no longer mentioned .

    1. Krasnodar 8 May 2020 12: 28 New
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      Well, that is nothing for him, but there is something for others. Not only is this a lie, in fact, i.e. the old German falsification of history, as well as falsification from Shpakovsky, like this is Nitsche, normal

      Can you take styling lessons from you?
      1. Pane Kohanku 8 May 2020 13: 19 New
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        Can you take styling lessons from you?

        Can. Bar and Michael mutually hone the syllable on each other, like Jekyll and Hyde. fellow I propose for alter historians to also establish a title ("alternative columnist"), but highlight the avatar in a different color. Not gold, but ... for example, pink. repeat Why not, Albert? wink
        so also falsification from Shpakovsky, like it's nothing, okay

        oh, Shpakovsky generally fought back from his clutches for a long time, lives in a falsified world with annals, knights, samurai, but for some reason without Tartaria and ethno-super. request The list of epithets he received from the "patriotic public" is longer than the list of orders by Brezhnev. laughing (Vyacheslav Olegovich - sorry for the modest joke! drinks ).
        1. Krasnodar 8 May 2020 13: 30 New
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          The hiring of world imperialism, encroaching on the spirituality and collegiality of the Soviet hyperetnos of Tartaria, an agent of the Jewish Sohnut and a resident of the Mossad in Third Rome, a caretaker of the glorious socialist lifestyle in Penza, priestess of priestesses Yarila during the days of proletarian holidays, a wrecker at the construction site of communism in a particular country, bourgeois and counterrevolutionary - Zionist Shpakovsky fellow
          1. Pane Kohanku 8 May 2020 13: 35 New
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            Yes, yes, everything was so, we all held a candle! drinks
          2. Fat
            Fat 8 May 2020 18: 28 New
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            Quote: Krasnodar
            The hiring of world imperialism, encroaching on the spirituality and collegiality of the Soviet hyperetnos of Tartaria, an agent of the Jewish Sohnut and a resident of the Mossad in Third Rome, a caretaker of the glorious socialist lifestyle in Penza, priestess of priestesses Yarila during the days of proletarian holidays, a wrecker at the construction site of communism in a particular country, bourgeois and counterrevolutionary - Zionist Shpakovsky fellow

            Mdya Contra and the bourgeois ... And we read, rejoice, wait. Opponents poop stock up ahead of time.
            1. Krasnodar 8 May 2020 18: 33 New
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              Such a malicious sionug, like me, always holds the RZSO with cluster munitions stuffed with kakakha, ready. In the event of the appearance of an adversary who will be given a very disproportionate response in IsraelIsland, worthy of condemnation by the UN Security Council am
              1. Pane Kohanku 8 May 2020 21: 07 New
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                In the event of the appearance of an adversary who will be given a very disproportionate response in IsraelIsland, worthy of condemnation by the UN Security Council

                I realized that all the enemies of Russia - and American fat basses, and European homosexuals, and bearded barmaleys of all stripes, and cunning fans of geishas and rice - must be lured to the Krasnodar Territory. wink We have a secret weapon - Krasnodar! fellow "Poplars" can be removed from service, the army demobilized, sawed fleet. stop For Krasnodar is enough for everyone ... angry Let's put money on children and pensioners! drinks Mmm ... by the way, the Guarantor can also be fired - the country's security is guaranteed! request
                Albert, if the Chinese climb, we will tell you that they owed you five shekels of the third day, and didn’t give it back, okay? repeat Was China ... and where did everyone go? ... request
                1. Krasnodar 8 May 2020 22: 21 New
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                  The Chinese people are cunning - they just buy our non-selling bailiffs - and Krasnodar will sit on the banks of the Yellow River and cry, remembering Zion and five shekels crying
                  1. Mordvin 3 8 May 2020 22: 33 New
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                    Quote: Krasnodar
                    and Krasnodar will sit on the banks of the Yellow River and cry,

                    The sun rises over the Yellow River
                    Krasnodar goes to work.
                    Comes with a kyle on his shoulder,
                    And he sings a song:
                    Ale, Ale, Ale, Ale
                    China rushing forward!
                    1. Pane Kohanku 9 May 2020 01: 11 New
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                      Krasnodar goes to work.
                      Comes with a kyle on his shoulder

                      and with dazibao in the ass, for a hidden renegade! fellow (as bequeathed to V.S. Vysotsky) laughing
                    2. Krasnodar 9 May 2020 01: 54 New
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                      Oh, even Krasnodar and the poor old Jew who went through two operations, let's say, not in Sharit and Shiba lol, but different cool dazzybao can still stab 80 percent of the “patriots” who are not involved in sports on the cheek fellow
                2. Pane Kohanku 9 May 2020 01: 17 New
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                  Chinese people are cunning

                  it is still unknown who is more dodgy - theirs Chinese or our "Krasnodar"! wink drinks
                  Albert, somehow you are setting yourself up incorrectly! stop
                  1. Krasnodar 9 May 2020 01: 56 New
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                    Yes, it’s not a question of who is more dodgy. The question is, who has the most selling environment laughing
        2. 3x3zsave 8 May 2020 19: 08 New
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          Jewish Dying Agent and Mossad resident
          Uh! Be careful with the definitions! Mossad agent, it's me. Shpakovsky worked all his life at the Intellectual Service.
          1. Krasnodar 8 May 2020 19: 10 New
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            At MI-6? And where in Mossad - in Kidon or an operative? )))
            1. 3x3zsave 8 May 2020 19: 15 New
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              Worse! Influence Agent laughing
              1. Krasnodar 8 May 2020 19: 40 New
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                Poisoning a girl’s brain
                Treading their edelweiss? (WITH)
                1. 3x3zsave 8 May 2020 19: 45 New
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                  My girls, already grandmothers ... Alas
                  1. Krasnodar 8 May 2020 20: 51 New
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                    Girls are born new every year))
                  2. 3x3zsave 8 May 2020 20: 56 New
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                    OK. About 17 years later, I dedicate to your daughter! laughing
                  3. Krasnodar 8 May 2020 21: 15 New
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                    Make a billion tanks - I’ll accept, you’ll go through the cutting, you will hand over the giyur and without problems fellow
                  4. 3x3zsave 8 May 2020 21: 40 New
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                    I’ll make you a grandson - you can accept it anyway! laughing
                    What the fuck circumcision ?! In Judaism, kinship is listed on the maternal side, your children are Khazars, and your daughter’s children are squared! laughing drinks
                  5. Krasnodar 8 May 2020 22: 17 New
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                    I will raise my daughter on modest Jewish material requests - if you pull, then we’ll cut off even to the grandchildren wink And even instead of grandchildren - and under the root drinks
                    If according to Halakha, then my children are Russian, because their mother’s mom is Russian. But you have to become a Jew - you put forward the condition of marriage for her, like Kushnir Ivanka lol
                  6. 3x3zsave 8 May 2020 22: 26 New
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                    "Oh, my daughter! My ducats! My ducats are Christian!" (WITH)
                  7. Krasnodar 8 May 2020 22: 38 New
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                    Oh lemons, you are my little chervonchiki, you grow up with Anton on the balcony)).
                  8. 3x3zsave 8 May 2020 22: 49 New
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                    "Pea grains" grow there ...
                  9. Krasnodar 8 May 2020 22: 52 New
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                    Change them for magic beans - 999 golden eggs and so on ..))
          2. Pane Kohanku 9 May 2020 02: 07 New
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            What the fuck circumcision ?!

            Such a chance once in a lifetime! belay We will do circumcision at home, in our opinion, "in Gatchina", as Pal Petrovich said. bully A glass of vodka - and your "excess flesh" to feed the seals! soldier
            put forward the condition of marriage, as Kushnir Ivanke

            think over a new name, Anton, to match Kushnir. laughing
  • Kote Pan Kokhanka 8 May 2020 23: 04 New
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    Quote: Krasnodar
    The hiring of world imperialism, encroaching on the spirituality and collegiality of the Soviet hyperetnos of Tartaria, an agent of the Jewish Sohnut and a resident of the Mossad in Third Rome, a caretaker of the glorious socialist lifestyle in Penza, priestess of priestesses Yarila during the days of proletarian holidays, a wrecker at the construction site of communism in a particular country, bourgeois and counterrevolutionary - Zionist Shpakovsky fellow

    Yeah, shoot twice by hanging!
    To be honest, the dilemma is eating me. If Rurik - a foreigner pounced on Mother Russia, which has since been called so! Who were the foreigners there? And who are we !!!?
    But further even worse, archaeological in the days of Rurik, Novgorod was not !!!
    So it is right for the Chess, Likhachev and Greeks that the Tale of the Temporary Years, although constructed in the form of annals, but written in the 12th century after two centuries and rewritten many times over five hundred years cannot be absolutely common truth and accordingly has inaccuracies and vulnerabilities , including commonplace errors! So to pull it in pieces and parts is not worth it! In essence, it is necessary to treat the Tale as a Tale, and not to make pseudo-historical revelations - “The Volkhov is not navigable”! Therefore, should Novgorod be sought in the place of Yaroslavl?
    Why not in Tmutarakan?
    Despite the inaccuracies, the PVL gives a clear situational picture of two centuries ago, which, in oral tradition, reached the Author of the Story!
    Hence a number of epic moments, for example, tribute to the Khazars with swords or the loss in the narrative of the resettlement of the Ugrians !!!
    So it’s corny to me that Rurik’s nationality is not interesting, it’s important for me that from that moment on the Russian land came!
    Regards, Vlad!
    1. Krasnodar 8 May 2020 23: 18 New
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      That's right. And if you delve into the nationalities of royal dynasties, then in Romanov’s Russian roots it’s not that very ..
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 May 2020 05: 11 New
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        Quote: Krasnodar
        That's right. And if you delve into the nationalities of royal dynasties, then in Romanov’s Russian roots it’s not that very ..

        If vskidku!
        Byzantine, Hungarian, Svejsk and especially Polovtsian share of blood, then diluted with wives from the genus of Genghis Khan!
        The situation is similar for the Romanovs, who deduced themselves from the Prussians!
  • Phil77 8 May 2020 13: 53 New
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    Quote: Pan Kohanku
    lives in a falsified world

    Hello everyone! Add: with alternative weapons! laughing
    1. Pane Kohanku 8 May 2020 14: 02 New
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      Hello everyone! Add: with alternative weapons!

      with clubs of the wrong system, not like the Indo-Hyperboreans? laughing
      1. Mihaylov 8 May 2020 14: 45 New
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        Quote: Pan Kohanku
        with clubs of the wrong system, not like the Indo-Hyperboreans?

        I suppose they fought something like that, but what else?
        1. Pane Kohanku 8 May 2020 14: 51 New
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          I suppose they fought something like that, but what else?

          kpinga? or a similar type of African throwing weapon? drinks yes, Sergey, it was with a well-aimed throw of such a thing that the great-grandfathers of the Scythian-Slavs flunked the mammoth on Wrangel Island! fellow
          Vyacheslav Olegovich note! Subject! wink
          1. Mihaylov 8 May 2020 15: 00 New
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            Quote: Pan Kohanku
            kpinga? or a similar type of African throwing weapon?

            collectors call it "hellish frogs"
            Quote: Pan Kohanku
            with a well-aimed throw of such a thing, the great-grandfathers of the Scythian-Slavs overwhelmed the mammoth on Wrangel Island

            Nikolay, with one throw of such a wunderwaffe, the mammoth not only fell over, but the skin, meat, horns and hooves were immediately divided into separate heaps.
            Wise were great-grandfathers ... laughing
            1. Pane Kohanku 8 May 2020 15: 16 New
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              Wise were great-grandfathers ...

              and developed! yes They just didn’t have time to fly into space, although the Yarilo-1 space shuttle was already prepared for launch with the help of a giant slingshot at the Volosovsky Cosmodrome (named Veles - trained bears served as traction force). Rurik just came from Staraya Ladoga, and vulgarized everything, hire the West. sad And after the adoption of Orthodoxy, they generally got into tartarars. stop Or to Tartaria? belay
              1. Mihaylov 8 May 2020 15: 25 New
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                Quote: Pan Kohanku
                We just didn’t have time to fly into space

                Or maybe they did! Hide not only historians, but also astronauts! And now in space orbit still dangling spaceships of stained oak - seamless dugout. But the Americans on the moon saw this - the lunar Kizhi, but they hide everything! laughing
              2. Pane Kohanku 8 May 2020 15: 33 New
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                But the Americans on the moon saw this - the lunar Kizhi, but they hide everything!

                these basurman were not even in the world as a culture when our ancestors went hiking for ostrich feathers in the prairie of Oregon! soldier Naturally, they hide it - from their great shame for their lack of spirituality and their lack of talent!
                bog oak - seamless grooves.

                hmm .. something vaguely seems to me, Sergey, that our esteemed Eduard Vashchenko is also hiding something ... wink drinks
              3. Mihaylov 8 May 2020 15: 52 New
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                Quote: Pan Kohanku
                our esteemed Eduard Vashchenko is also hiding something ...

                Yes, yes: how did he in his last article try to pass off the remains of a crashed interplanetary Slavic glider as odnodrevka ?! But we know ... laughing
              4. Pane Kohanku 8 May 2020 16: 05 New
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                Yes, yes: how did he in his last article try to pass off the remains of a crashed interplanetary Slavic glider as odnodrevka ?! But we know ...

                Yes Yes Yes! In this picture, a view of the spaceport. The bowstring at the slingshot went into the shaft (upper left) for twenty miles. yes And Edward is trying to pass this off as a fortification! wink This is not strengthening, but the starting point of interplanetary expansion! fellow
              5. Mihaylov 8 May 2020 16: 19 New
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                Quote: Pan Kohanku
                In this picture, the view of the spaceport

                Exactly: a round structure is clearly a launching pad for space shuttle shuttles (or Slavic-Aryan - dolbaks), the stacks were burned as landing lights, and the very form of the settlement was made in the form of a Slavic rune, apparently this is the name of the cosmodrome (there were a lot of them). Unfortunately, not strong in Slavic-Aryan, I do not know how to read. laughing
              6. Fat
                Fat 8 May 2020 16: 38 New
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                Quote: Pan Kohanku
                This is not strengthening, but the starting point of interplanetary expansion

                And ... by the glass?
              7. Pane Kohanku 8 May 2020 16: 41 New
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                And ... by the glass?

                tempting ... in the evening! wink
              8. Fat
                Fat 8 May 2020 17: 33 New
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                Slow down! I didn’t suggest it! (WITH)...
                Do I want, can I .... So anyway ....
                Magnolia ...)))) ()
            2. Mihaylov 8 May 2020 16: 42 New
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              Quote: Thick
              And ... by the glass?

              Notice, I didn’t suggest it.
            3. Pane Kohanku 8 May 2020 16: 45 New
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              Notice, I didn’t suggest it.

              - And who doesn’t drink? Call it !! fellow
          2. Fat
            Fat 8 May 2020 17: 25 New
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            It's Easy!
            Mogu li, ya. If I want to!?
          3. 3x3zsave 8 May 2020 19: 23 New
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            Mogulia ... The best Abkhaz surname.
          4. Pane Kohanku 8 May 2020 21: 11 New
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            The best Abkhaz surname.

            Then, Megrelian, like Comrade Beria! wink
          5. 3x3zsave 8 May 2020 21: 28 New
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            With these questions to Dmitry "Rich."
            Meanwhile, nationality is called: Mingrelian.
            Clever, huh?
          6. Pane Kohanku 8 May 2020 21: 34 New
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            Meanwhile, nationality is called: Mingrelian. Clever, huh?

            Clever, yes! bully Wikipedia writes about miscellaneous pronunciation. hi and about aspects of subtleties - this is to Bar'y!laughing
          7. 3x3zsave 8 May 2020 21: 57 New
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            Well, I'm a jester! I can. I can argue with VikNik, swear with Shpakovsky, compose about "Captain Mikhailov" ...
          8. Pane Kohanku 9 May 2020 01: 09 New
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            to write about "captain Mikhailov" ...

            about the wandering minstrel-knight di Bajini - no, no way? request Okay, I’m composing it myself! laughing
  • 3x3zsave 8 May 2020 19: 20 New
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    What is a glider? It was an ekranoplan!
  • Fat
    Fat 8 May 2020 18: 39 New
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    Quote: Mihaylov
    the skin, meat, horns and hooves were divided immediately into separate heaps.

    This is from the “while you slept” series. Kicking after the hunt .. Uh ... It's good for health, but accounting and control ... So writing was soldered. ))))
  • 3x3zsave 8 May 2020 18: 44 New
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    Better - formal logic.
  • Deniska999 8 May 2020 13: 04 New
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    Nothing is visible on your map.
  • aakvit 8 May 2020 13: 22 New
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    +7
    And there were few invited rulers in other, so to speak, “civilized” countries, huh? William of Orange - Well, a true Britt! If you recall, then almost all the rulers are guests!
  • Trilobite Master 8 May 2020 15: 15 New
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    Here he is - a typical evil critic of historical science. With this science, by the way, is completely unfamiliar.
    Quote: Bar1
    So the Varangian Rurik came by invitation to Russia and began to reign with the Russians, where did he come from? From Novgorod, which stands on the Volkhov River near Lake Ilmen.

    To begin with, the arrival of Rurik Novgorod was not yet. Not at all.
    But he is also the same expert on geography:
    Quote: Bar1
    the Volkhov river is very shallow and rapids

    Photos Volkhov see laziness. Or didn’t get it easy. We believe Fomenko is small and rapids.


    The second photo - Volokhov at the source, in Novgorod itself.
    There was a small rapids site, but quite passable, much less extended and dangerous in comparison with the rapids on the Dnieper.
    Quote: Bar1
    there is no famous Yaroslavl yard, but there is a site of 20 acres

    Well, so, tentatively, 300x300 m., Total 90000 sq.m. How many times is 20 acres?
    Quote: Bar1
    no prince’s palace, where did he go?

    Rurikovo settlement? No, did not hear and do not want to hear.
    Quote: Bar1
    And indeed, archaeological finds for the capital of Ancient Russia simply do not meet expectations.

    The capital of Russia in the XNUMXth century? I wonder what your expectations are ...
    Quote: Bar1
    there are mentions in the annals that, say, Moscow and Novgorod were connected by a trade road, but they cannot find traces of this road, it is not there.

    Volga - Tvertsa - Vyshny Volochek (there was a drag, if that) - Msta - Ilmen - Novgorod. There was also the so-called "Seregersky way", a detour, across Lake Seliger, bypassing Torzhok. Longer, but in some cases safer.
    Quote: Bar1
    in the annals they say that the princes famously moved from Rostov to Kostroma, through Novgorod !!

    There was something like that, I don’t remember exactly, the message of the times of the Great Feudal War, about the Shemyaki route, it seems. Dismantled already, if my memory serves me, with Rurik (there is such a user). Remind me that there in the annals (which are all as one - fakes, by the way) is written specifically, I forgot. In my opinion, the point was that Shemyaka first left for
    Novgorod, where he was welcomed, and then, collecting troops there, from Novgorod went on a campaign to Kostroma.
    Quote: Bar1
    And where was this Novgorod?

    We pose the question in a slightly different way: And how many of these Novgorod were there? Well, at least by the XNUMXth century? I can immediately recall four - Novgorod the Great, Novgorod Nizhny, Novgorod-Seversky and Novogrudok. Most likely, there were more. Which one are you interested in?
    1. Bar1 8 May 2020 17: 17 New
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      Quote: Trilobite Master
      To begin with, the arrival of Rurik Novgorod was not yet. Not at all.


      this can already be finished. Where did the trilobite see that Novgorod was not there? Here is the Laurentian Chronicle.
      ... the first inhabitants of Slovenia in Novgorod.

      where is it written that Novgorod was not? What about trilobite?

      Quote: Trilobite Master
      Photos Volkhov see laziness. Or didn’t get it easy. We believe Fomenko - small and rapids


      Your photo is the source near the lake, there the river is wide, but such a river is on the rapids.
      and he walked from shore to shore.


      Quote: Trilobite Master
      Well, so, tentatively, 300x300 m., Total 90000 sq.m. How many times is 20 acres?

      no.
      You repeat the false idea that Yaroslav's court-palace is a marketplace on the right bank of the Volkhov, but this is nonsense. Yaroslav the palace was on the left side in the Novgorod Detins / Kremlin, so according to the OI, there were also many thousands of people’s veche / evening, but only there is no way to place all these actions inside this fake Kremlin, this serf is small, even the younger brother of Novgorod, Pskov / Pleskov, and the Kremlin is bigger there.


      Bidding was on the one hand, and the fortress on the other, and then what was this fortress closing? Any raid on an insecure bargain across the river and there is no bargaining. This is not done.
      1. Trilobite Master 8 May 2020 18: 42 New
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        Quote: Bar1
        where is it written that Novgorod was not?

        You are a fool, Bar, a fool and an ignoramus. You tell me where it says that he was at the time of the arrival of Rurik.
        And the three brothers from their birth gave up, singing along the whole of Russia, and came: the oldest Rurik, and the other - Sineus on Bele Lake, and the third Izborst Truvor. From those nicknamed Ruska land, novogorodtsi, these people are nougorodtsi from the sort of Varangian. Previously, Besha Slovenia.
        After two years, Sineus will die and his brother Truvor. And priya the power of Rurik, and giving her husband
        Grads: ovom Polotesk, ovom Rostov, another Beloozero. And by that city, find the essence of qi; The population is in Slovenia, Polotsky Krivichy, in Rostov Merya, in Bel-Ozero the whole, in Murom of Murom. And those all possessed by Rurik.

        This is the Laurentian Chronicle.
        And the three brothers got rid of their clan, and belt all over Russia, and came to the word “righteous”. And cutting down the city of Ladoga. And here is the eldest in Ladoz, Rurik, and the other, Sineus on Bѣlѣ lakes, and the third Truvor in Izborsk. [59] And from that varyag the Rus land was nicknamed. After two years, Sineus and his brother Truvor died. And Priya Rurik had power all alone, and came to Ilmer, and cut down the city of Volkhov, and nicknamed Novgorod, and this one, the prince, and distributing to the husband his volosts and cities chopped down: to the ost Poliesk, to the ost Rostov, to another Bulozero. And for the city, the essence of the foundress is Varyazi; The population is in Novgorod Slovenia, and in Polotsk Krivichi, Rostov Meryans, entire Bѣlѣozerѣ, Murom Murom. And all possessed by Rurik.

        And this is Ipatievskaya.
        Let it be known to you that Rurik initially sat in Ladoga, and Novgorod arose later, perhaps during his reign, but the existence of the city is archaeologically confirmed only from the beginning of the tenth century. Ladoga was too open for attacks from the sea, so the prince (Rurik or Oleg, it’s hard to say) transferred his main capital to the source of Volkhov, where it was impossible to get to sea drakars because of the thresholds I mentioned. River vessels passed, but sea vessels did not. Just the rapids Ladoga fortress and guarded.
        Next.
        A simple Yandex search indicates that your picture depicts the Sugoda river - a small rivulet in the Vladimir region, a tributary of Klyazma. She has nothing to do with Volkhov. I wonder where you took this photo ... laughing Perhaps I have not heard more ridiculous and ridiculous stupidity from you.
        The Volkhov is a large river, wide and full, collecting all the water that flows into Ilmen, and these are such large rivers as Msta, Lovat, Pola, Shelon and many smaller rivers. That's all that they bring to Ilmen - Volkhov makes it. And along the way he takes a few more quite decent rivers. See a map, google photo, etc. In my photos - just a typical Volkhov.
        Quote: Bar1
        Yaroslav the palace was on the left side precisely in the Novgorod Detinets / Kremlin, so according to the OI,

        "According to the OI" Yaroslav's yard was where it is now - on the Trade side on the banks of the Volkhov River, next to the Nikolo-Dvorishchensky Cathedral. What imbecile told you what was different - find out for yourself. In Novgorod, in general, there were often two nights - on the Sofia (where Detinets) and on the Trade (where Yaroslav's yard) side. And the prince generally lived on the so-called. "Rurik hillfort", it is even further south, three kilometers upstream of the Volkhov from Yaroslav's courtyard.
        Quote: Bar1
        there were many thousands of national veche

        Also exist only in sick fantasies of Fomenko and other wretched minds. Only free male bosses went to the veche, only a couple of thousand were recruited on both sides, three from strength. Both Detinets and the Yaroslavl Courtyard fully accommodate such masses of people.
        Everything else that you wrote is the same nonsense. For example, have you heard anything about urban suburbs?
        In short, not horse feed. You have already been flooded with so many times by what you apparently think is God's dew, that it smells of your comments, but you all do not give up. Would go to the doctor, rest a month, would heal ... Leave VO, give people a break from homeric laughter.
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                1. Bar1 9 May 2020 00: 50 New
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                  Quote: Trilobite Master
                  Regarding Novgorod - I can give a link to V.L. Yanin, for example. To search?


                  don’t need Yanin is just a forger.


                  Quote: Trilobite Master
                  What did Olearius do in the impenetrable impassable places? What brought him there? And then how did he get out of there?

                  Olearius is not a merchant and did not deal in goods, so his luggage was not heavy.
                  Quote: Trilobite Master
                  Why are you afraid that Karamzin, a Normanist, a hiring German ideological saboteur, a court historian Alexander I, has become such an authority for you.

                  I have already said it several times. It’s not realistic to fabricate a story 100% even to Karamzin and to nobody at all, so they do it, change details, but something remains true, we are looking for this truth.

                  Quote: Trilobite Master
                  Yes, and one more question - do you know the word "drag"? And the word "barge hauler?"


                  the drags were unconditional, but, as in the case of Olearius, they did not carry a heavy load. But if the drag determines the weight and size of the goods, then this is no longer a great market, therefore, this is clearly not the same Novgorod.
                  As for the haulers, I know the haulers on the Volga.
                  The Volga is better, a large full-flowing river. It is not surprising that large ships walked along it. I dropped a van der Aa engraving about Nizhny Novgorod below Kohanke, there were already galleons going on in the 17-18th century, but how?
                  Well, as usual, it means the Volga-Baltic water system was built earlier than the OI tells us.
                  Therefore, it is Yaroslavl / Novgorod that is the correct answer.
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    2. Pane Kohanku 8 May 2020 21: 40 New
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      Bidding was on the one hand, and the fortress on the other, and then what was this fortress closing?

      closed important administrative buildings - Voivodship courtyard (not preserved) and the archbishop's courtyard (it is on the lower left in the photo). Moreover, Vasily Kalika created the same courtyard, to which we owe the term "non-possessors". So arrange? Also Detinets was located from the western direction - from the most threatened. Because no one came from the east, but from the West - for God's sake, all of cultural Europe. hi
      write about the highest tower? or where did the lions in front of the museum come from? Not for you - for Michael. soldier
      and then

      what? nothing. He piled on his shoulder. The movie "Afonya". Enrages such a syllable. negative
    3. Pane Kohanku 9 May 2020 01: 54 New
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      Your photo is the source near the lake, there the river is wide, but such a river is on the rapids.
      and he walked from shore to shore.

      Where is this bridge located? landmark, locality? hi
  • Pane Kohanku 8 May 2020 21: 18 New
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    The second photo - Volokhov at the source, in Novgorod itself.

    If desired - navigable. In Staraya Ladoga, a strong bend in front of the mound - the "grave of Oleg". Pleasure boats go quietly in Novgorod. Ilmen - yes, it’s too small - now there are boats, mainly. drinks
    In the Middle Ages - navigable freely throughout. soldier What can I say - on the coat of arms of Polotsk, which is on the Western Dvina, is depicted galleon! Sorry, such ships came. request And the Daugava - the river will be much thinner ... hi
    You also have not heard of the Novgorod bridge ... Sadness. That was the name, by the way, of the Great Bridge. On it, it happened two nights converged - to find out whose veche is better.

    not just two nights - two sides of the city! Yes, and found out ... Michael! Bred for an article! wink
    1. Trilobite Master 8 May 2020 22: 26 New
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      Quote: Pan Kohanku
      Bred for an article!

      Aha (licked predatoryly). smile
      1. Pane Kohanku 9 May 2020 01: 20 New
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        Aha (licked predatoryly).

        like the emperor Bokassa on the "sugar pork"? wink (usually I say that about dear Konstantin and his five "graces" of student age that bathe in his pond) drinks the call is accepted, Michael! bully With me an article, with you - a motivated article-supplement-comment-refutation! "Let's rock!" (film "Mask") good
    2. Bar1 9 May 2020 00: 26 New
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      Quote: Pan Kohanku
      What can I say - on the coat of arms of Polotsk, on the Western Dvina, a galleon is depicted! Sorry, such ships came. And the Daugava - the river will be much thinner.


      I don’t know Dvin, there are no thresholds.
      here is an engraving by Van der Aa 17-18 in Nizhny Novgorod, we see the galleon on the Volga. The question is how he got there, because the Volga-Baltic water systems are the Mariinsky system of the 19th century. OI have not yet been built. Has it flown over the sky? True, they write about the Vyshnevolotsky system, such as 1709, but then they wrote that it did not work.

      https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Вышневолоцкая_водная_система

      Therefore, the appearance of a large ship of the ocean zone in the Volga and most likely back in the 17th century is again the problem of OI.

      1. kalibr 9 May 2020 06: 55 New
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        Quote: Bar1
        large ship of the ocean zone

        What shows that it is large and oceanic?
        1. Bar1 9 May 2020 08: 18 New
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          Quote: kalibr
          Quote: Bar1
          large ship of the ocean zone

          What shows that it is large and oceanic?


          Well, probably from the fact that it looks like a galleon or a caravel, and these are exactly ships of the sea zone. And the galleons were usually not built small.
          1. kalibr 9 May 2020 17: 26 New
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            Quote: Bar1
            And the galleons were usually not built small.

            Take an interest in the size of the Russian-built Frederic and Eagle vessels sailing along the Volga. These are also galleons ...
            1. Bar1 9 May 2020 18: 25 New
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              Quote: kalibr
              Quote: Bar1
              And the galleons were usually not built small.

              Take an interest in the size of the Russian-built Frederic and Eagle vessels sailing along the Volga. These are also galleons ...

              why do you think this is an eagle?
              1. kalibr 9 May 2020 20: 51 New
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                Painting by Konrad Dekker depicting "Eagle" at Astrakhan.
                I do not think. Just on the Volga there were shipyards capable of building a ship of large sizes and similar architecture, that's all. But the "Eagle" took as a basis the Dutch Pinass built. And he looked just as well. The shipyard was in the village of Dedinovo near Kolomna (now it is the Lukhovitsky district of the Moscow region). By the way, while he was sailing from Dedinovo to Astrakhan (3 months), many, including foreigners, could see him. Including artist Conrad Dekker and others ...
  • Fat
    Fat 8 May 2020 16: 33 New
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    Timur! Please ... Well crap ....
  • Basil50 8 May 2020 13: 59 New
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    In historical science, modern geology, climate, and even the settlement of peoples extrapolate to what happened in antiquity.
    Sometimes the stubborn reluctance of historians to relate archaeological finds to reality is surprising.
    The most telling case for me is when they dug up a terracotta army with a watch from Mao's wife.
    1. kalibr 8 May 2020 15: 38 New
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      Another stupid conspiracy theory: Concord, dazzle, burn, and collect nearly 9000 of these clay statues is a titanic work. Each of them has individual facial features, and among them there are no two identical. Clay making time is very easy to determine today. Figures were studied by different historians. To blame China for fake would be a sensation, this man would become famous forever. And someone from those who made them would certainly blurt out. But ... failed. No one!
      1. Vlad world 10 May 2020 19: 41 New
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        The so-called "VKS" is for you the historical reality of 2000 years of endurance, or the construction of the 20th century on the orders of Mao. I mean the one that tourists are led to.
        For information, as far back as the middle of the 17th century, monks describing China on behalf of the Pope. They wrote - Do not believe the Chinese if they bring Ancient things to you.
    2. Fat
      Fat 8 May 2020 19: 03 New
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      You messed up all at once FSE interpolation, extrapolation, navigation .... Rangers ...
  • Pvi1206 8 May 2020 06: 37 New
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    Historical science is politicized .... there can be no talk of objectivity ... unless, of course, we want to deceive ourselves ... this is neither good nor bad ... it cannot be another ...
  • Catfish 8 May 2020 06: 57 New
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    Good morning friends! smile
    I have after a night "watch"
    "Oh, oh, I’m hurting my head, I can’t write."

    Thanks again to Vyacheslav and all have a nice day and good luck! drinks
  • Van 16 8 May 2020 08: 23 New
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    "Their study is worth a lot of work"
    That's right. I tried to just read “The Word of Igor’s Regiment”, I cursed everything in the world)) I don’t even get to the middle.
    Because a great respect to Vyacheslav Olegovich, and to everyone who works with manuscripts.
  • ee2100 8 May 2020 08: 28 New
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    Good afternoon! An article, if the author writes about the annals, only about one. Go and read, the whole truth is there. But let the author himself determine this historical work or fiction based on historical events.
    1. kalibr 8 May 2020 09: 20 New
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      Quote: ee2100
      But let the author himself determine this historical work or fiction based on historical events.

      Just about all four articles about it ...
      1. ee2100 8 May 2020 10: 37 New
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        A worthy answer from a professional historian. "I twist and turn, I want to confuse!" When it is profitable, and when not, it is a work of art. Different writers wrote, and they "saw it"
        1. kalibr 8 May 2020 10: 43 New
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          Quote: ee2100
          When it is profitable, and when not, it is a work of art.

          No, not so: sometimes a document to a greater extent, sometimes a work of art to a greater extent. Moreover, it has long been clarified which documents contain more. And the difference is palpable.
          1. ee2100 8 May 2020 10: 47 New
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            It doesn’t happen - I believe here, but I don’t believe here. This determines that the annals are works of art.
            1. kalibr 8 May 2020 10: 51 New
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              Quote: ee2100
              It doesn’t happen - I believe here, but I don’t believe here. This determines that the annals are works of art.

              That's just what happens. But, you, Alexander, want in your own way? I do not mind: write a dissertation, where you prove it, and I will be the first to applaud your discovery and popularize it!
              1. ee2100 8 May 2020 11: 24 New
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                You perfectly understand what I want to say. And more about reading and perceiving what was written. We will not argue about logic and common sense at all. Who helps authorities of all stripes use history to their advantage? Historians who themselves decide what is true and what is not. In the comments M. Zadorny was mentioned. Thanks to him for stirring up interest in his own story among part of the population. Now on the Internet, as you know, professional historians cover the same events in different ways. It is not surprising that there is no faith to anyone. On this site, where there are practically no "random" people to a direct question, you answer that historians have agreed on what and how to read, what and how to interpret. And an answer like: "do not like write a dissertation defend and I will applaud the first" just says that you can "agree" and review. With all due respect to your work, a huge part of it is aimed at preventing the interpretation of history by “inquiring minds” not from among professional historians.
                1. kalibr 8 May 2020 12: 29 New
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                  Quote: ee2100
                  non-admission to the interpretation of history by "inquiring minds"

                  And you prove that your mind is inquisitive, not stupid! To interpret, you must first know! Shukshin had a wonderful story, "Cut!" - read it, it will be interesting.
                  1. ee2100 8 May 2020 14: 08 New
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                    Read. Do you like this story?
                    1. kalibr 8 May 2020 15: 29 New
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                      He is indicative. It is simply not enough to state the critical orientation of your mind. It is necessary that others confirm this. That is why in science there is the concept of abstracted labor. That is, one that is published in a peer-reviewed and may be subjected to comments and criticism of specialists. Not anonymous, as here. And if this is not, there are no articles here, which are also very significant, then ... sorry. I do not accept any comments from such people. That is, once again, before interpreting - you need to know. And then there was one "interpreter", and did not even know what historiography was.
                      1. ee2100 8 May 2020 15: 51 New
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                        You had an article in May about the artistic images of Prince Alexander. In my commentary on it, I asked several questions on the text of the annals regarding the so-called The battle of the ice. No answer, no greetings. This is the topic "what historians are silent about." ““ Inquiring minds ”I’m not about myself, but about those who are interested in the history of their homeland. If they are just interested, do you think they will drop everything and run to the history department? "teachers" with all the ensuing consequences. If you have published about 1300 articles on this site, then you need to do this for some reason. Does it make sense to make "enemies" for yourself? You are a historian, but not my teacher, but
                      2. kalibr 8 May 2020 16: 12 New
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                        Quote: ee2100
                        then for some reason you need it

                        What for? You are working? What for?
                      3. kalibr 8 May 2020 16: 14 New
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                        Quote: ee2100
                        The point of making "enemies"?

                        And ... they do not sow, they do not blow, they themselves will be born! At all you will not please in any case!
                      4. kalibr 8 May 2020 16: 15 New
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                        Quote: ee2100
                        No answer, no greetings.

                        So he considered that they were not worth either an answer or a hello. And where is it written that here the author is obliged to answer to VO?
                      5. Fat
                        Fat 8 May 2020 17: 06 New
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                        Vyacheslav Olegovich! You still never track "uncomfortable questions" .... And sometimes, simply, there is nothing to answer. Everything is visible in a short remark ... Whether you have to answer or not is yours and right ... And Thank you for that ... We have something to think about ...
                        Always grateful, you accompany your thought ... ....
                      6. ee2100 8 May 2020 17: 51 New
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                        How many cents have you added?
                    2. ee2100 8 May 2020 17: 08 New
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                      We talked very fruitfully. You have explained your position. Good weekend.
  • AllBiBek 8 May 2020 13: 10 New
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    So to speak; the annalistic vault — any — is the second diluted with the inserts of the first, and that’s where these inserts and the difference between them are in different vaults — that’s how they actually stand out.

    The chronicles, by today's literary standards, are a digest magazine, only very large, for many years, and read by very few people.
  • Free wind 8 May 2020 08: 57 New
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    Well, the author, as it’s not clear, you seem to have thought of Alexander Nevsky yourself, rewrite it earlier, copy it, now it’s to change history. A neighbor at the desk breathing in my ear asked me to write, not rewrite. It is interesting that the chronicler was transferred to the priests. Typically, chroniclers in monasteries are black monks and could not be transferred to priests, since priests are white monks. Maybe the chronicler was not tonsured a monk. Probably the age of the chronicler was not long, just like a clerk. There were no reading rooms, the chronicler worked in a cell with a splinter, I don’t think there were panoramic windows. He probably began to work on serious texts from the age of 20. Well, he was unlikely to be able to modify them until he was 40 years old. Neither points, nor laser correction then seemed to be there. Although if the clerk is nearsighted, it can take longer to write without glasses. And then the farsightedness after 35 in many develops rapidly. Thanks for the article, Happy Victory Day for all of you.
    1. kalibr 8 May 2020 09: 21 New
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      Quote: Free Wind
      you seem to have come up with about Alexander Nevsky

      An article about this is written!
    2. Senior seaman 8 May 2020 10: 33 New
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      Quote: Free Wind
      Typically, chroniclers in monasteries are black monks and could not be transferred to priests, since priests are white monks.

      To go nuts!
      I will tell you a terrible secret. Monks may well be both deacons and priests. Moreover, even parish, which are colloquially called "priests."
      1. Free wind 8 May 2020 11: 19 New
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        A monk cannot be a deacon by definition, a monk a black monk who has recently taken tonsure, say Peresvet and Oslyabya. And the deacon belongs to the white monks. And they are not priests or even parish, they cannot conduct divine services and church rituals, deacons can help to conduct rituals for priests, for beauty, but not necessarily. They have not grown yet to the rites and will not grow, there is no education. But priests can already conduct church services and rituals.
        1. Senior seaman 8 May 2020 11: 55 New
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          Quote: Free Wind
          A monk cannot be a deacon by definition

          Where did you get this heresy?
          Practice is the criterion of truth. The current Patriarch Cyril was tonsured April 3, 1969, and ordained hierodeacon on April 7, that is, already being a monk.
          The hierodeacon is a deacon of the monks. Just like a hieromonk - a monk priest. And this has little to do with education. Take at least Deacon Kuraev. He graduated from the seminary, and the theological faculty.

          And for example, in Catholicism, where there is no white clergy at all, priests go through the following steps: novice, monk, subdeacon, deacon, and only then becomes a priest.
          1. vladcub 8 May 2020 14: 59 New
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            Senior sailor, are you a ship priest by any chance? Until 1917, a priest was on every ship, and then their "pumps" were replaced.
            In fact, the priests were military and political officers were brave, but in the past. In my time - LODAR
            1. Senior seaman 8 May 2020 18: 19 New
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              Quote: vladcub
              Senior sailor, are you a ship priest by any chance?

              No. And it is necessary?
              Quote: vladcub
              Until 1917, a priest was on every ship.

              Emnip, only first-ranking, but that's not accurate.
              Quote: vladcub
              In my time - LODAR

              Uh ... loafers? Well, in mine, in general, too. Our educational pomp was of the first rank, as was the commander. They said that he didn’t receive an admiral for a small one, just as the GKChP started, he set the wrong people. Not to say that a bad man, but nothing to praise. Neither the candle nor the devil of the poker.
        2. Fat
          Fat 8 May 2020 23: 29 New
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          Black priests spend quite a service. Only treby do not serve.
          Deacons help bishops and priests in worship, but cannot stand on their own at a Christian meeting and perform sacraments

          Doubt it? Look at the nearest monastery, ask how the white is different from the blackberry. There they will explain to you how the worker differs from the priest.
          PS You do not know if, so do not "foolishly" If you have never been a pilgrim.
    3. AllBiBek 8 May 2020 13: 21 New
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      You correctly argue, but there are nuances in the equipment.

      For example, in the letter of the charter, there is no concept of handwriting at all, they wrote to him standing with his elbow on his weight, according to a separate method, with a bunch of abbreviations with the title (or even without it), and no more than a page and a half a day. This is actually comparable to a detailed redrawing of the icon.

      Writing clerks - this is a little different period than the time of writing Lavrentievskaya or Ipatievskaya or Elder Novgorod.

      Who and how copied and in what rank he was appointed to this obedience - there is no consensus.

      In theory, there is no need to be able to write or read, it is enough to be careful and at least some skill of the artist.
      1. Fat
        Fat 8 May 2020 23: 33 New
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        Quote: AllBiBek
        In theory, there is no need to be able to write or read, it is enough to be careful and at least some skill of the artist.

        Here! Exactly! good
  • Senior seaman 8 May 2020 10: 31 New
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    No, they would have taken the money from foreigners, of course, but they would have done the work somehow.

    something like "secret protocols to the pact"? repeat
    1. kalibr 8 May 2020 10: 44 New
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      It may very well be ... Although the example with the protocols to the pact itself is unsuccessful. The events that follow indicate that they were.
  • vladcub 8 May 2020 14: 38 New
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    Quote: Pan Kohanku
    And not only mathematical!

    and not just a shovel! drinks

    You are more careful there, otherwise they still do not produce spare members
    1. Pane Kohanku 8 May 2020 14: 55 New
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      You are more careful there, otherwise they still do not produce spare members

      When we multiply any term by zero, we get zero. Mathematics, Svyatoslav! drinks
  • arturpraetor 8 May 2020 15: 23 New
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    I can’t help but dwell on disputes involving “history is entirely wholly ordered, there is nothing to be trusted there” and “official history is wholly truthful, annals are the ultimate truth” laughing Why can’t I?

    Yes, everything is simple - if you don’t unexpectedly be lazy and dig deeper than historians do, it turns out that from a year ago 2010 on certain topics regarding the same history of Russia, historians themselves began to revise many views from the past, due to the emergence of new sources and cross-comparisons with old. And for some reason, the majority these historians, whose writings I have encountered, are always critical of the texts of chronicles and chronicles, recently - especially, and more and more often from them the recognition has been heard that chronicles and chronicles, with rare exceptions, were not devoid of a political element, and therefore could in assessments over-praise "their", and denigrate "strangers." It is also allowed that random errors and deliberate falsifications were made in the chronicles. But only with what it should suddenly nullify the historical value of the annals, if, when cross-comparing, most of the factual information provided is still confirmed? request

    "Be simpler and people will reach for you." Discarding the annals right away, and trying to write history from scratch, based solely on your fantasies and subjective preferences - bad manners, this is not even an alternative story, as I say Aishnik smile But to assert that once the annals say it means it is the ultimate truth, is also bad news, because the chronicler almost always had a cartridge, or the chronicler himself preferred someone (for example, a local prince, not some to the distant one, although both are Rurikovichs), or the chronicler, not being himself a witness to certain events, could be misinformed - in short, the human factor is in full growth. This also applies to Western chronicles, if that.

    In short, one cannot regard history as an absolutely exact science. You can’t even draw from it a drawbar, wherever you turn it, it turned out there. It is always necessary to make a start from chronicles and chronicles, and only then make cross comparisons, comprehension, analyze and try to draw on the realities of time or character traits of the characters described ... History is primarily an analytical and logical science. Without proper skills in these areas, as well as the ability to drop emotions and cheers, it is better not to get down to business at all. And there will never be a certain limit of knowledge in history, for historical knowledge of a normal historian is formed not only from reading a couple of sources and sitting in archives, but also from a great experience of analytical work. And even if all this is there is no guarantee that the answers will be accurate and reliable. There are no guarantees that the answers will be at all ... Exact sciences are sometimes easier ...

    Miles sorry for verbal diarrhea and a stream of consciousness hi Simply, somehow, this is the very thing, and these people’s battles on the topic of “official history” still tire and amuse people - at the same time, many of the participants don’t even imagine what it is and what processes are happening there ...
    1. kalibr 8 May 2020 16: 17 New
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      Quote: arturpraetor
      They were not deprived of a political element, and therefore could in their assessments overestimate “their own people” and denigrate “strangers”. It is also allowed that random errors and deliberate falsifications were made in the chronicles.

      Isn't that just what is written here?
      1. arturpraetor 8 May 2020 16: 24 New
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        So this was not a pebble in your garden, dear colleague. It’s just that sometimes it’s hard for some to read the material of the article, but comments are easy. My colleague Mikhail S already somehow faced this when he was in a cycle about Rurik laughing And in general, my comment is more likely from the category of "sick of it." I live on several sites regularly, I visit many periodically, and similar fractions between one sort of die-hard and a different order already ... I wrote the comment only after meeting with the discussion. Regarding history, as far as I know, our views coincide in many respects.
        1. kalibr 8 May 2020 16: 32 New
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          Quote: arturpraetor
          and similar fractions between one sort of die-hard and another order already ...

          Dear Artem! Without this, it’s impossible ... Well, no way ... There are reasons!
    2. kalibr 8 May 2020 16: 18 New
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      Quote: arturpraetor
      And even if all this is there is no guarantee that the answers will be accurate and reliable. There are no guarantees that the answers will be at all ... Exact sciences are sometimes easier ...

      You are absolutely right in this. Only microcephals have answers to all questions!
    3. Trilobite Master 8 May 2020 16: 34 New
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      You know, Artem, I agree with you in many ways. There are enough difficulties in reading and, most importantly, understanding the sources, and their list is by no means limited to what you wrote.
      Any annalistic text, before it reaches the reader, goes through several stages - the collection of information, its processing by the author and the editors. I believe that the final version of the text, before being beautifully and scrupulously rewritten and hemmed, was edited repeatedly.
      Any information in its transmission is inevitably distorted. In the chain "event - source (direct - eyewitness, or indirect) - author of the text - editor - reader" at the "source" stage can be any number of sub-steps, as a result, the initial information about the event reaches the reader inevitably with distortions.
      And here, already actually for a modern researcher, there comes yet another significant problem that did not confront contemporaries of the chronicler. A modern researcher needs to understand what his author wanted to say with his test. This was understandable to contemporaries of the author and did not require any explanation; the distortion at the “editor - reader” stage was minimal. In the case of our contemporaries, these distortions can be gigantic, changing the whole meaning of the test. In this regard (I mean the understanding of the sources), certain hopes are assigned to historical psychology, a science that is only emerging.
      1. arturpraetor 8 May 2020 16: 53 New
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        Taki completely agree with you, dear colleague. At the same time, I repeat for some, all these doubts and 100500 reservations are not a reason to completely discard historical sources as absolutely unreliable, while emphasizing unrestrained sexual-historical fantasy and cheers-patriotic preferences, after which the Hyperborean empire appears , the primordially Slavic population of Italy, and other nonsense, which does not have any objective basis, only subjectivity, emotions and Wishlist wassat
      2. kalibr 8 May 2020 17: 44 New
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        Quote: Trilobite Master
        In this regard (I mean the understanding of the sources), certain hopes are assigned to historical psychology, a science that is only emerging.

        What a clever Mikhail we have!
      3. 3x3zsave 8 May 2020 20: 07 New
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        certain hopes are assigned to historical psychology, a science that is only emerging.
        You know, Mikhail, I suddenly found out that historical psychology, as a discipline, has been a hundred years old.
        1. Trilobite Master 8 May 2020 21: 06 New
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          Quote: 3x3zsave
          already a hundred years old.

          Oh well ... I would read something so fundamental, dedicated to the Middle Ages. There are options?
          1. 3x3zsave 8 May 2020 21: 18 New
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            Johan Heyzinga "Autumn of the Middle Ages", from the modern, Olga Togoeva and Tatyana Ryabova, the latter, in part.
            1. Trilobite Master 8 May 2020 21: 48 New
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              Thanks, I’ll take a look. This topic has attracted me for a long time, I'll see what you can profit from there. )))
              By the way, I know Togoev. I didn’t read it, but in the list of literature I had it ...
              1. 3x3zsave 8 May 2020 22: 03 New
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                I am attracted by the word "completely"! Togoev is better to read in "paper", to Heyzing too.
          2. AllBiBek 9 May 2020 12: 55 New
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            "Annals of history," the whole binder.
            This is Mark Blok and his group, and this is the foundation on which medieval studies stands as a separate historical discipline.
            “To understand the history of the period, you need to understand what happened in the heads of the people who lived in it,” is their motto.

            If you need a domestic analogue - there is a magazine “Chronicle of Moscow Region” in the public domain in the public domain, it is made according to the same principle. I can give a link. It rests on the enthusiasm of a number of colleagues, but - there really are local history experts with a historical, mainly teaching staff, RSUH.
            1. Trilobite Master 9 May 2020 14: 05 New
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              Quote: AllBiBek
              “To understand the history of the period, you need to understand what happened in the heads of the people who lived in it,” is their motto.

              The correct motto. smile
              It is strange in general to realize that before this issue was not given pure attention. Rybakov, it seems, said that people over 1000 years have not changed ...
              1. AllBiBek 9 May 2020 16: 25 New
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                It was done, even how. Source science as a science is also Miller's Notebooks, and they weigh more for source science than all of Lomonosov’s conclusions.

                Blok laid the foundation of historical psychology (on the materiel of his time, and there is Freudianism), and Skrynnikov shot well in this area, he is still a guru in Grozny and the Time of Troubles. Valishevsky worked well, but he is a controversial author. Although almost certainly hooked, he has an easy syllable.

                But Rybakov - could not understand the mentality of the studied era, alas. Deformation in the other direction worked.
    4. ee2100 8 May 2020 18: 04 New
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      You can subscribe to almost every word. But the author’s goal, in addition to making money, is to besiege all those interested in history. His paradigm is that only a historian can reason about history. “And who are you?” “No, who are you, I ask ?!” “And who are you ?!” Here is the credo of the author.
      1. kalibr 8 May 2020 18: 53 New
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        Quote: ee2100
        His paradigm is that only a historian can reason about history.

        Michael, for example, is not a historian. But his knowledge and reasoning will honor any historian. Demonstrate something similar and no one will say a word to you. So far, there is nothing besides empty words from you!
        1. ee2100 8 May 2020 20: 00 New
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          laughing wrote for Michael, not for you. I'll think about the offer
      2. AllBiBek 9 May 2020 12: 57 New
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        Yes, how can I tell you? Anyone can talk about female genitalia, for example, but about the processes, diseases, pathologies, and so on - after all, the gynecologist’s opinion is more competent, don’t you?

        Any science needs a basis, but anyone climbs into a story with a smart look. Worse only in philology, linguistic - this is a disaster.
  • tth
    tth 8 May 2020 18: 41 New
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    Vyacheslav, thanks for the next article, it’s really gone!
    The question has ripened, but do you have your own thoughts / analysis of the Novgorod birch bark letters?
    The volume is not as large as the annals, and gives an idea more about the life of ordinary people of medieval Russia.
    ps in addition, it is interesting to hear Bar's opinion on the fake of birch-bark letters by the Germans in the 18th century.
    1. kalibr 8 May 2020 18: 55 New
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      Dear Nicholas! In my opinion, we already had a conversation about letters. I promise that I will look for information at all available levels.
      1. AllBiBek 9 May 2020 13: 06 New
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        Uh ... Everything is more complicated than it seems, the letters have a tight binding to the territories up to a specific estate, and people up to a specific kind, and without digging into the context of the withdrawal - you won’t understand anything there.

        In Novgorod there are a little less than one thousand two hundred, for each of them there is at least an article about primary reading in the context of finds (and most of it will be layer / square / depth / next to that), then decryption options, then linking with others diplomas, and - generalizing.

        According to the grouped ones, there are also a couple of monographs about each group, and there are more than half of them, and groups are from 2 to two dozen.

        Imagine the volume that will need to shovel?

        I do not dissuade, just by general strokes indicate what is there and how.
        1. kalibr 9 May 2020 16: 49 New
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          Quote: AllBiBek
          Imagine the volume that will need to shovel?

          And you think why I still did not write anything about them ... But we must someday begin ... We will begin, as always, with the historiography of the issue.
        2. tth
          tth 9 May 2020 21: 32 New
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          I read the translation of these letters and roughly understand what you are talking about. That’s why I turned to Vyacheslav with a request for “dummies” like me. Given the fact that the amount of information on the annals is much more voluminous and more difficult to understand.
  • depressant 8 May 2020 20: 16 New
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    I read the article, laughed at the heartbreaking, woeful fake of the description of the battle. Further, I especially liked the expression "crawled." And completely shocked by the erudition of colleagues. I liked the jokes. It used to be - "Physicists are joking" ...
    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich! love
    1. kalibr 8 May 2020 20: 58 New
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      Quote: depressant
      I read the article, laughed at the heartbreaking, woeful fake of the description of the battle.

      Glad you liked it. I tried. It turned out to be not so easy to write. And "proligat" is a great word. Our ancestors would give odds to Chekhov himself!
  • Vlad world 10 May 2020 19: 59 New
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    I read the article and did not understand what and why it was written. If for the assertion that Everything in the annals is True, to put it mildly, It is not true. If, for the assertion that the Germans were historians of the time of Peter the Great, they could not have copied them, then they could not, because whoever did not speak Russian at all, and who could hardly barely. Such "experts" were in Russian history.
    Well, in the annals of chaos and frank lies enough. Some time passed - the political attitude changed - and during the next correspondence of the annals, the coverage of some events changed and even events could disappear, and some would appear. And if it was impossible to rewrite, then it came to scraping the old text and applying a new one.
    1. agond 25 June 2020 22: 07 New
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      Peter 1 abolished the old chronology, that is, removed it from the history of the event for 5.5 thousand years, by his order, in pain of death, all sorts of ancient documents were taken from everywhere to Moscow, for example, on wooden tablets, where they disappeared, but in many copies appeared that Now they are in the archives and they can be thrust under the nose to researchers of history.