Military Review

Latniki of medieval Iran

156
Latniki of medieval Iran
Siege by the Mongols of Alamut 1213-1214 Miniature "Jami at-tawarih" Rashid ad-Din. National Library of France, Department of Manuscripts, Eastern Division.


Blade, chain mail, long spear
And a good horse - when with such an outfit
You crossed the border, they say:
Surf can not argue with a waterfall.
Rings fly off enemy chain mail
Like feathers of birds, beaten by a strong hail.
The enemy rushes about, hunted like a beast
And captivity to him is an unexpected reward.
Abu-t-Tayyib ibn al-Hussein al-Jufi (915-965) Translation from the Arabic language Volosatova V.A


Warriors of Eurasia. Readers of “VO” have probably already noticed the disappearance from the pages of the website of a series of articles on Eurasian warriors from 1050–1350 based on the materials of a two-volume monograph by the English historian Dove. Nicolas. But there is only one reason - the lack of materials for decoration. The fact is that after the last material of the cycle "Warriors of North Africa 1050-1350" such chapters should have followed: Maghrib and Sicily, Andalusia, Arabia, The Fertile Crescent, Iraq and Syria, and Islamic Anatolia. And in the monograph of D. Nicolas there are graphic depictions of artifacts and miniatures. But where to find their originals? Nicole himself worked for many years in the East: first at the Arabica Air Force, then, having received a PhD degree at the University of Edinburgh, he read for many years history Islamic and world architecture at the University of Yarmouk in Jordan, well, traveled all over the Near and Middle East, museums and ruins, churches and monasteries. Today, things have become more complicated. Many museums are simply plundered and do not function. Others do not respond to requests from Russians. The fourth on the Internet posted only their names and opening hours. It seems to be an age of information, but on many topics it is simply impossible to find. So I had to abandon many topics, unfortunately. But today we are returning to the publication of articles in the cycle and expanding its chronological framework due to the peculiarities of the development of oriental culture.


Saber Shemshire Indo-Iranian specimen, whose blade dates from 1748–1749 or 1750–1751. Iranian blade, scabbard and bandage - Indian. Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York

And we will talk about the warriors of Iran, including the Turks who lived in Azerbaijan and the neighboring Iranian province of Adharbajan, who appeared in this region relatively recently, as well as the Kurds of Iran, Iraq and southeastern Turkey.

The power here from 934 to 1062 belonged to the Buids, a Shiite military dynasty that managed to transform the Abbasid caliphate into the Iranian empire. Its founders were the brothers Ali, Hassan, and Ahmed Buid, who came from the highlands of Dale in Gilan (Northern Iran), who were mercenary military leaders who managed to rise during the Ziyarid dynasty. The Buids are known for adhering to the traditions of the old Persian culture, and from 945 to 1055 they even ruled Baghdad (while occupying the inherited post of Amir al-Umara, the post of Supreme Commander and Commander of the Guard of Ghouls) and most of the lands of modern Iraq. The paradox of the situation was that they did not officially recognize the spiritual authority of the Sunni caliph in Baghdad. In relation to Christians and Sunni Muslims, a policy of tolerance was carried out. Smart people. They realized that the civil war did not bode well for them. But in the second half of the XI century, the Buids nevertheless fell, becoming victims of the invasion of the Seljuk Turks and their allies.


Horseman of the Buid cavalry. Iranian 1976 History Guide Sale dovvome rahnamai, p. 29


Shemshire from Persia (circa 1800), it is made from Indian Damascus steel. The luxurious thing: small pearls are inserted into the slot near the blade, the decoration is made with enamel, gold, emeralds, “fish skin”, an ivory hilt. Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York


The appearance of a warrior-dalemith Same source


Turkish toothfish or kylych. The blade dates from 1550–1551. Again, the range of such blades was very wide, there are also Armory Kremlin chamber (saber of Prince Mstislavsky). Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York

Interestingly, initially their power rested solely on the army, consisting almost entirely of the infantry of the Dalemit Highlanders, famous for their ferocity and love of garlic. And the Sassanids willingly used them as an elite infantry, for which they eventually paid. Moreover, the severity of weapons Dalemity did not differ.


Warriors of Iran X-XI centuries. Illustration by Angus McBride: 1 - Sassanid horseman of the X century; 2 - rider of the cavalry of the Buid dynasty; 3 - infantryman-delemite, beginning of the 4th century; XNUMX - Guardsman of the Ghaznavid army, mid-XNUMXth century

The Dalemites themselves were belligerent, but somewhat culturally backward, known for their terrifying appearance and the habit of wearing swords not only on their belts, like the Arabs, but also on the bandages, like Persians or Turks. For a long time they were known as good mercenaries. Where they just did not serve: from Afghanistan to Syria and Egypt! Their armament was quite limited, but nonetheless effective: a set of short copies and also a large, brightly colored shield. Swords, battle axes and bows (the latter, perhaps, were used by the arrows that were behind the spearmen infantry). If armor was used, then it was mainly chain mail. The tactics of the battle of the Dalemites were simple but effective: the infantry had to hold the front even during the advance. Meanwhile, the cavalry, divided into units, attacked the enemy several times, attacking and retreating in the traditional Arabic style. The horseman’s traditional weapon was the moon-shaped tabarzin ax (literally “saddle-ax”), which was also used in Fatimid Egypt.


Typical Iranian chain mail plate armor of the XVI century. Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York

According to their military traditions, they are very similar to the Ghulam, but they were Sunnis, so the rivalry between the two groups was very fierce.

The Seljuks, who destroyed the Buid state, were nomadic steppes, the main striking force of which were horse archers. However, having subjugated Iran, the Seljuks soon adopted its principles of forming their army. The country was divided into twenty-four military regions, each of which was under a regional command. In fact, these were the provincial military governors who had to collect, train and equip a certain number of soldiers every year, who regularly gathered in pre-equipped places to spend the summer either in training or participating in a military campaign. As for the nomadic element represented by Turkmen soldiers who did not want to settle down, they would be transferred to border areas where they acted as semi-official armed forces raiding enemy territory. In these campaigns it quickly became clear that the ghouls of the Baghdad caliphs were better disciplined, better “armored”, better trained and, as a rule, more universal as warriors. Gulam’s tactics included archery both on target and in squares, both in open combat and during a siege, and this technique required constant practice and great skill. They were also better prepared for close combat, in which they were very effective because of their heavy armor, which often included horse armor. The written sources list the equipment of these elite warriors: a spear, a dart, a sword, a bow, a mace, a lasso, a hauberk and a helmet with a hood or decorated with a horse tail, with the spear giving priority. These professional warriors were described by the Byzantine princess Anna Komnina as more knightly than even the Western European crusaders.


1050th century Seljuk warrior Fig. Angus McBride from the book by Nikolle D. “Saracen Faris AD 1250-XNUMX”

Kurds as warriors became known only at the end of the Seljukids, when they became the original basis of Ayubid power in the late XII and early XIII centuries. For a long time they were considered effective cavalry, rode relatively large horses, wore generally heavier armor than the Arabs, and their sword was their favorite weapon. Kurdish infantry is rarely mentioned, but the Kurdish cavalry was used by the Ghaznavids and served Saladin and his other heirs, as well as in Egypt and Syria. But it was in the service of Ayyubids that the Kurdish horsemen became most famous and played a very important role in the wars in the East, as they were the personal guard of Saladin.


Gulyams - armored men of the army of Saladin in a battle with the crusaders. Fig. Angus McBride


Persian horseman of the beginning of the 1050th century Fig. Angus McBride from the book by Nikolle D. “Saracen Faris AD 1250-XNUMX”

After the invasion of the Mongols and the inclusion of this region in the state of Ilkhanov, all these warriors fell sharply in terms of prestige towards the Mongols and their descendants. However, they continued to serve their new rulers, as did mercenaries from much more distant lands, including Europeans, probably mainly as crossbowmen, although some may have continued to serve as heavy cavalry. Italian sailors or marines are even mentioned in sources serving on the Black Sea; some of them were recruited for sailing on ships in the Arabian (Persian) Gulf. Some sources report that Italian sailors in the XIII century sailed even in the Indian Ocean, while being in the service of the Mongol ilkhans!


Ghazakhand's eastern armor (a), described by Osama ibn Munkiz (see also the previous figure in the upper left). It was a complex chain mail armor of several layers: the first outer layer was bright Bukhara fabric, the second layer was a “Frankish” heavy chain mail of large rings, underneath it was a cotton quilted Bukhara fabric, the fourth layer was Iranian chain mail from small rings, and, finally, under it Silk lining of Chinese silk. Osama ibn Munkyz wrote that on top of such armor for a horse attack they also put on a shell of plates (!), Which provided complete protection in the complex, but when leaving for reconnaissance at night, such a shell was removed, since the plates clattered loudly against each other. B - a button to it



Dresden Armory. Tatar saber (?) With a point for piercing chain mail

However, the following is interesting: in spite of everything, the influence of those who arrived in the lands of modern Iran and Iraq was not at all as great as it might have seemed, including in the military field. Over time, a very peculiar complex of protective armor and offensive weapons developed here. Since the rider’s main weapon was a bow, the helmets here were never completely closed. The shoulder girdle was supposed to have maximum mobility. Hence the dominance of chain mail, and with short, to the elbow, sleeves. The torso was covered with forged carapace, both front and rear, and from the sides. But, unlike the European anatomical shell, a simple “fold” was used here on loops of four plates: charayna - “four mirrors”. It consisted of a bib, a back plate and had one plate under each arm, and was worn over a thin chain mail. The hips were protected by chain mail, descending below the knees, and the knees themselves - with forged convex kneecaps. Finally, Persian kalkan shields were widely used, small in size, made of brass, iron and ... reed! And distinguished by the presence of four ombons.


Charaina - “four mirrors”, XVIII century Appeared in Persia in the XVI century. Pay attention to the amazing, engraved on it domestic and hunting scenes. Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York


Iranian equestrian armor of the XVIII century. Illustration from the book “Cavalry. The history of fighting elite 650BC - AD1914 »V.Vuksic, Z.Grbasic

Well, then on the expanses of the Persian state, centuries of unrest began. Who only did not come here and did not fight here!

Only with the capable and energetic Nadir Shah (1736-47) did the state manage to be brought into relative order, which made it possible to have a disciplined army, consisting mainly of cavalry. He first defeated Turkey, then recaptured the Caspian coast from Russia, which gave him the opportunity to fight Afghanistan, from where a new threat was coming from the Pashtun tribes or the Gilja. In response, he entered Afghanistan and took Kabul. Then he captured Lahore and Delhi along the Indus valley to the Arabian Sea, then again turned north through Kandahar and Turkestan, and captured Bukhara and Khiva.


Iranian-Turkish soldiers of the 1th century: 2 - infantryman from Western Anatolia in the first half of the 3th century, XNUMX - Turkish horseman-ghazi, first half of the XNUMXth century, XNUMX - Turkmen horseman in the beginning of the XNUMXth century Fig. Angus McBride

The Persian army participated in this large-scale campaign, consisting of equestrian nobility (an analogue of the local cavalry of pre-Petrine Russia), light nomadic cavalry, infantry and artillery. Moreover, from the end of the XNUMXth century, infantry and artillery units appeared in it, which had firearms and were trained by European instructors. However, the tactics and equipment of the cavalry remained the same, although the quality and beauty of armor, chain mail and sabers reached their zenith in the XNUMXth century. The main weapons of the Persians of the upper class at this time were a light spear, composite bow and saber. They also used a mace and short steel spears carried in a case.

References

1. Zakeri, Mohsen (1995). Sasanid Soldiers in Early Muslim Society: The Origins of 'Ayyārān and Futuwwa. Otto Harrassowitz Verlag. pp. 1–391.
2. Nicolle, D. Arms and Armor of the Crusading Era, 1050 - 1350. UK. L .: Greenhill Books. Vol. 2. pp. 219-251.
3. Vuksic, V., Grbasic, Z. “Cavalry. The history of fighting elite 650BC - AD1914. " pp. 148-149
4. Nicolle, D. Saracen Faris 1050-1250 AD.L.:Osprey (Warrior No. 10), pp. 1-48

To be continued ...
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  1. tlauicol
    tlauicol 6 May 2020 06: 23 New
    +3
    Interestingly, the bifurcated spear tip from the third drawing moves apart on impact and spring back? Maybe even collapse and water hammer?
    1. Bar1
      Bar1 6 May 2020 07: 34 New
      -18
      the pictures in the Rashid ad Din's Annals are fakes created to distort the image of the people living in those days.
      We have already talked about this, but Shpakovsky persists in opinion, although he is not able to show in which edition these miniatures are.
      1. kalibr
        6 May 2020 07: 41 New
        +5
        "Jami at-tawarih" Rashid ad-Din. Bibliothèque nationale de France, Département des manuscrits, Division Est.Vous y allez, ...., et nous trouvons tout. Vous pouvez contacter le chef de service et lui poser toutes vos questions.
        1. Bar1
          Bar1 6 May 2020 07: 46 New
          -15
          you can write whatever you want, prove it.
          1. Deniska999
            Deniska999 6 May 2020 08: 01 New
            +7
            Here is just write to the National Library of France)
          2. tlauicol
            tlauicol 6 May 2020 08: 08 New
            +7
            Quote: Bar1
            you can write whatever you want, prove it.

            Like, defeat the coronavirus, open the borders, and take me to France, hire a translator and take me to the library?
            1. kalibr
              6 May 2020 13: 09 New
              +4
              By the way, there specifically for the period of virus quarantine until May 14, the remote search system SINDBAD was opened. Just for those who want to work with them remotely ...
            2. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 6 May 2020 13: 18 New
              +7
              Quote: Tlauicol
              defeat the coronavirus, open the borders, and take me to France

              Show the person the map where Rashid ad-Din would be drawn, with Jami at-Tavarih in his hands, so that there were visible pictures and the signature should be, excluding any doubts. Maps are generally the only source of reliable historical information, and only those where Tartaria is depicted.
              Do you have a map with Tartaria and Rashid ad-Din? No? Well, what to talk about with you then?
              laughing wassat laughing
              1. Hantengri
                Hantengri 6 May 2020 15: 37 New
                +5
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                Show the person the map where Rashid ad-Din would be drawn, with Jami at-Tavarih in his hands, so that there were visible pictures and the signature should be, excluding any doubts.

                And he will tell you that it is the official historians who specially falsified the portrait of Rashid ad-Din with Jami at-Tavarih in his hands, heating up pictures in it. And the signature was also falsified (after all, it is clear that the old signature was painted over!). But in fact, there, in the purest Russo-Tartarian language, it was written: "Men, Rashid ad-Din, on Jami at-Tavarih, the picture draws emas. Mom, I swear!". tongue
                1. Trilobite Master
                  Trilobite Master 6 May 2020 16: 05 New
                  +3
                  Is "Emas" something like a male genital? I just understand oriental languages ​​Yaman. Keel Manda, Yakshi Belme and Yaman Baska - my limit. laughing
                  And about this character - yes, there’s only a lobotomy here, which has been repeatedly noted by colleagues. It would have been reprogrammed lightly, and launched by the Americans, it would have brought benefits, reducing the general intellectual level of their population, and so ...
                  but that’s what it is, that is.
                  1. Hantengri
                    Hantengri 6 May 2020 16: 55 New
                    +3
                    Quote: Trilobite Master

                    Is "Emas" something like a male genital?

                    laughing Nearly. "Emas" is a denial, something like a "not" particle. Draw emas - did not draw.
                    1. Trilobite Master
                      Trilobite Master 6 May 2020 18: 00 New
                      +3
                      Thank. And then it’s already embarrassing - the Tatar historian, and I don’t know the emas. Well, now hold on to the world community. “I will go without tenderness” with Tatar pseudo-historians - emas to you and all Yakshas. laughing
  2. Olgovich
    Olgovich 6 May 2020 06: 30 New
    -3
    ,
    then recaptured the coast of the Caspian Sea from Russia, which gave him the opportunity to fight Afghanistan

    It was very briefly: in the 19th century, Persia was defeated, the north of Iran fell under the influence of Russia and in the beginning of the 20th century the Caspian Sea became practically the inland sea of ​​Russia.
    1. Operator
      Operator 6 May 2020 08: 49 New
      +2
      According to the pre-war plan approved by Nicholas II, northern Iran, populated by Turkic-speaking Azerbaijanis, was to become part of the Russian Empire.

      What Stalin tried to implement in 1946, but refused under pressure from the United States, which at that time had a monopoly on nuclear weapons.
    2. DDT
      DDT 13 May 2020 17: 20 New
      0
      Quote: Olgovich
      , It was very briefly: in the 19th century, Persia was defeated, the north of Iran fell under the influence of Russia and in the beginning of the 20th century the Caspian Sea became practically the inland sea of ​​Russia.

      Well, they didn’t sit for 100 years, then Iga wasn’t ... crying
  3. Catfish
    Catfish 6 May 2020 07: 21 New
    +4
    Good morning friends and good day to all! hi
    Thanks to Vyacheslav Olegovich for the new article. There is a question, the second picture below shows
    Iranian equestrian armor of the XVIII century. Illustration from the book “Cavalry. The history of fighting elite

    If this is exactly the XNUMXth century, then where is at least some gunshot? Are they going to fight the European armies with hatchets and chain mail? Kind of weird. It’s beautiful, but at that time it’s completely not functional, especially since you write
    Moreover, from the end of the XNUMXth century, infantry and artillery units appeared in it, which had firearms and were trained by European instructors.
    And does cavalry mean anything, as it got stuck in the XNUMXth century, and "not a step forward"?
    They have at least something changed, I mean the equipping of riders?
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 6 May 2020 07: 28 New
      +5
      Uncle Kostya! hi
      But is there any reason to change something, if this, on a regional scale, works so well?
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 6 May 2020 08: 00 New
        +7
        Hello Anton! hi
        So it’s one thing in your region, but if someone comes to visit you from another? laughing
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 6 May 2020 08: 07 New
          +5
          In order to work for the future, you need to realize this perspective.
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 6 May 2020 08: 09 New
            +5
            What is it about? That's why the question was asked. wink
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 6 May 2020 08: 16 New
              +4
              It turns out that he himself answered. The Middle East until the mid-18th century was a "thing in itself."
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 6 May 2020 09: 11 New
                +5
                The Middle East until the mid-18th century was a "thing in itself."

                But now "the whole thing is from itself" laughing I mean, nowadays you won’t get bored with them, only instead of Kalash’s bows and Faustpatrons. request
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 6 May 2020 09: 23 New
                  +5
                  If this gopota were not funded from outside, for them even now karmaltuki would be considered as prodigals.
                  1. Catfish
                    Catfish 6 May 2020 09: 36 New
                    +4
                    You can’t argue with that. And they don’t care from whom to take money, we are all dogs for them unfaithful. Today they cut alone, and tomorrow with no less pleasure already these. Mentality ... I won’t continue, otherwise they will be soldered for “inciting”. soldier
                  2. Krasnodar
                    Krasnodar 6 May 2020 09: 52 New
                    +3
                    Hello Anton!
                    Why from outside? They have oil)).
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 6 May 2020 16: 42 New
                      +2
                      Albert! hi Well, you are better than everyone present understand the situation there! You do not assume that the "cannon fodder" of the barmalei are UAE nationals?
                      1. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 6 May 2020 17: 33 New
                        +1
                        They are the finances of the barmalei)). In addition, the main source of financing in the occupied Cheon \ green territories are taxes that are ripped off by them from the population of the controlled settlements. Moreover, according to a very competent, in my opinion, Russian correspondent in Syria, Yevgeny Poddubny, a part of the population who prefers a traditional and primitive way of life is not opposed to the authorities and the payment of taxes, respectively.
        2. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku 6 May 2020 11: 52 New
          +7
          So it’s one thing in your region, but if someone comes to visit you from another?

          the picture shows very well the armament of the two non-commissioners - front and back - halberds. In the 18th century they had this form. It was possible to even align the system, and crack a negligent subordinate pole under the ass, so that he would walk more vigorously on the buckshot! Perhaps the front officer lacks an esponton in his hands. hi The last to introduce such weapons in the Russian army was Pavel Petrovich.
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 6 May 2020 12: 00 New
            +5
            Hi, Nikolay! hi
            So Pal Petrovich, as they say, tried to copy Friedrich in everything, and the picture just shows the attack of the Prussian infantry, the idea of ​​Esponton? laughing drinks
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 6 May 2020 12: 06 New
              +9
              So Pal Petrovich, as they say, tried to copy Friedrich in everything

              Pal Petrovich spent almost twenty years in Gatchina, and his mama’s lovers wiped their feet on him. The only thing - went to Europe, including, and looked at Friedrich. He compared the rules and the degree of respect for the person of the monarch, and for his person in Russia ... Here you will inevitably want to bring Catherine’s nobility! angry
              ide esponton?

              probably, under Gross-Egersdorf personally Rumyantsev selected! request And he broke a stick ... crying
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 6 May 2020 12: 15 New
                +5
                I can’t, Kohl, as soon as I hear the name of Rumyantsev, Bender-Zadunaysky instantly pops up! That's all my life it haunts me and I can not do anything. wassat
                1. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku 6 May 2020 12: 18 New
                  +6
                  I can’t, Kohl, as soon as I hear the name Rumyantsev

                  there is a very good historical novel "Kutuzov" by Rakovsky. By the way, Pikul later transferred some scenes from him to his novel "To Each His Own."
                  http://militera.lib.ru/bio/rakovsky/index.html
                  EMNIP, it describes that Rumyantsev at one time was deeply offended by the young Mikhail Illarionovich - he blurted out something without thinking. what Since then, the future winner of Bonaparte and learned to keep his mouth shut! wink
                  1. Catfish
                    Catfish 6 May 2020 12: 24 New
                    +6
                    Kohl, what are you talking about? With all due respect and patriotism, in what battle did Kutuzov defeat Napleon? As Averchenko once wrote, "Napoleon, entering Russia, constantly endured victory, but I didn’t hear about defeats. request
                    1. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 6 May 2020 12: 29 New
                      +9
                      With all due respect and patriotism, in what battle Kutuzov defeated Napleon

                      And where does the battle? bully You can arbitrarily “lead by points”, and then lie down from a knockout. Be that as it may, there was a "great army" - and there is no "great army" of the model of 1812. request
                      And in what battle did Napoleon defeat Kutuzov? (Austerlitz is not to be mentioned; there, Lexander Palych and his "friend" Franz were encouraged! stop ) drinks
                      1. Catfish
                        Catfish 6 May 2020 12: 54 New
                        +5
                        And in what battle did Napoleon defeat Kutuzov?

                        So I didn’t say that he defeated him, but under Borodin the battlefield remained for Bonaparte, and you know how the victories were counted in those days. Another thing is that he lost the war with Russia, but Waterloo was not here. smile
                      2. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 6 May 2020 12: 59 New
                        +5
                        but under Borodino the battlefield remained behind Bonaparte

                        yes but Bonaparte didn’t reach either its the main goal - the defeat of the Russian army. If he had achieved - everything, "paws uphill", there is no one to defend Russia!
                        Another thing is that he lost the war with Russia

                        yes, history judged so that the "great emperor" died in St. Helena, and his only friend was the girl Betsy Balcombe, with whom the "Bonnie", as she called him, willingly fumbled, and with whom he taught a number of subjects ... hi
                        Matured Betsy:
                      3. Catfish
                        Catfish 6 May 2020 13: 04 New
                        +4
                        “Bonnie” in his old age was carried away by nymphet, without a serious adultery, I hope. wink
                      4. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 6 May 2020 13: 06 New
                        +5
                        “Bonnie” in old age was carried away by nymphet, without a serious adultery, I hope

                        he was carried away there by the wife of his close associate, Madame Montolon, according to rumors. They write different things, including dirt. no Girl .. no, I think he just didn’t have enough children! hi
                      5. Catfish
                        Catfish 6 May 2020 13: 12 New
                        +6
                        Nobody bothered him to live differently. In another way, he could not, and there was nothing to be sad about. Man himself forged his fate and history. Peace be upon him. Amen. drinks
                      6. hohol95
                        hohol95 6 May 2020 13: 35 New
                        +6
                        They write different things, including dirt.

                        Leonem mortuum etiam et catuli mordent.
                        Even puppies bite a dead lion.
                        Publius Sir
                      7. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 6 May 2020 13: 55 New
                        +7
                        Even puppies bite a dead lion.

                        Alexei, I just offhand somehow looked at extracts from someone’s memoirs about Montolonsha. In general, sort of .. "something" they still had. request But we won’t kick Bonaparte! stop man-era, whatever it may be! soldier
                      8. hohol95
                        hohol95 6 May 2020 13: 59 New
                        +6
                        Once Stalin was informed that Marshal Rokossovsky had a lover - the famous beauty-actress Valentina Serova. What are we going to do with them now? Stalin took a pipe from his mouth, thought a little and said:
                        - That we will, that we will ... we will envy!

                        It’s always hard for great people to live from envious people!
                        Especially after death ...
                      9. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 6 May 2020 14: 04 New
                        +6
                        - That we will, that we will ... we will envy!

                        This is my favorite historical joke about Joseph Vissarionovich. By the way, Serova and Rokossovsky then unlocked - they say, there was nothing! stop
                      10. hohol95
                        hohol95 6 May 2020 14: 08 New
                        +4
                        In the negotiations, there was debate about the post-war borders, and Churchill said:
                        - But Lviv has never been a Russian city!
                        “And Warsaw was,” Stalin objected.

                        I say - the Great is always hard from envious people!
      2. DDT
        DDT 13 May 2020 17: 25 New
        +1
        Ai there was no great army ... Kuttuz-khan defeated the Mongolian troops and lay down, or what about Fomenko? wassat
      3. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 13 May 2020 17: 26 New
        0
        Kuttuz-khan defeated the Mongolian troops and lay down, or what about Fomenko?

        honestly, Fomenko did not read, but anything can be assumed. Although reptilians with haplogroups of the wrong system!
      4. DDT
        DDT 13 May 2020 17: 30 New
        +1
        lol What is true is true. I don’t understand why Nadir Shah pressed the north of Iran and Transcaucasia from the Republic of Ingushetia, at a time when the Republic of Ingushetia did not smell close there? And what does Berezino and the armored men of medieval Iran have to do with it ?! wassat
      5. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 13 May 2020 17: 31 New
        0
        why Nadir Shah pressed the north of Iran and Transcaucasia from RI

        and the jester knows him. I need to ask Nadir.
        And what does Berezino and the armored men of medieval Iran have to do with it ?!

        word for word ... wink
      6. DDT
        DDT 13 May 2020 17: 41 New
        +1
        lol Let’s better talk about the naturous beauties of Crete ... and more interesting and informative and more pleasant bully
      7. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 14 May 2020 09: 32 New
        +1
        and more interesting and informative and more pleasant

        oh, how right you are .... winked
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 6 May 2020 13: 26 New
    +5
    Quote: Sea Cat
    With all due respect and patriotism, in what battle did Kutuzov defeat Napleon?

    Since here today, the French language is held in high esteem as follows: C'est Beresina. smile
    1. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 6 May 2020 13: 58 New
      +6
      C'est Beresina.

      Mikhail, as you turn it around, it will be so. In response, they will say that Kutuzov came too late, Wittgenstein was deceived, and Chichagov frowned. wink Here it is necessary to judge by the total. drinks And the result is the same winged expression that you mentioned, which entered the French language in the same way as the Swedes - "Poltava", and the Germans - "Stalingrad". hi
    2. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 6 May 2020 14: 16 New
      +4
      That is why I used it in French. smile Whoever said anything about this battle, and the French determined its outcome as clearly as possible. smile
    3. DDT
      DDT 13 May 2020 17: 26 New
      0
      Et, qu'est-ce que s'est passé à Beresina? Pourriez vous me rafraishir la memoire?
  • Catfish
    Catfish 6 May 2020 16: 54 New
    +6
    Nothing of the kind, under Berezin, he suffered another, and the last, victory in Russia. laughing
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 6 May 2020 16: 46 New
    +5
    Bender-Transdanubian instantly pops up!
    "Pan Ataman Gritian Tauride!" (C) laughing
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 6 May 2020 16: 58 New
      +5
      It is not necessary to equate the cute Osu with all gangster trash.
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 6 May 2020 17: 10 New
        +4
        Ah, sorry uncle, the "holy" hurt !!! repeat repeat laughing
        As for me, the "icon of the genre" are J. Peters and E. Tucker. From the present, D. Ocean.
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 6 May 2020 17: 30 New
          +4
          Everything ingenious is immortal, and these two blockheads are indisputable! good
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 6 May 2020 17: 01 New
    +4
    “And Captain Mikhailov is captured in the image of the late Emperor Pavel Petrovich. Sometimes he builds serfs on a pasture, picks up half-planted drains and drives them into a herd of cow. Saying,“ Keep the order! ” "and cursing in vain at the negligent" (From denunciations)
    1. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 6 May 2020 18: 08 New
      +2
      "And Captain Mikhailov, in the image of the late Emperor Pavel Petrovich, was captured.

      Emperor Pavel Petrovich could have been saved if the commander of the main guard had not been at a loss - too executive, but too narrow-minded captain from the “Gatchins”. Zubov shut him up, and the captain took the soldier to the guard.
      Sablukov's memoirs:
      https://readli.net/chitat-online/?b=928290&pg=15
      The main guard in the courtyard of the castle (as well as the external sentries) consisted of a company of the Semenovsky Grand Duke Alexander Pavlovich regiment and was under the command of the captain, of the Gatchins [66]
      Explanation: 66 Captain Paker, who previously served in the Gatchina Naval Battalions. According to gr. Langeron, "all the soldiers and officers of the guard of the Mikhailovsky Palace were consecrated secret, except for the commander of the guard, Paker, an insignificant and stupid German."
      Letters from Nikita Muravyov:
      http://www.hrono.ru/libris/lib_m/mu_ap_pav1.html
      The main guard was held by Captain Mikhailov with his company. He was a Gatchina, a worthy example of these officers: rude, illiterate, and a drunkard. The soldiers of this guard also raised a murmur that they were not led to calm the noisy. Lost, Mikhailov turned for advice to Ensign Konstantin Markovich Poltoratsky, who was with him on guard. Understanding the essence of the matter, he replied that he did not dare to give advice to his commander.
      Mikhailov led the soldier out of the guardhouse. Climbing up the front staircase, on its platform, he met Count Zubov and asked: “Captain, where are you going?”
      Mikhailov replied: "Save the sovereign."
      The count gave him a good slap in the face and ordered: "To the right around." Mikhailov, with due obedience, took his soldiers to the guardhouse.

      Muravyov during those events still walked under the table. All that I heard - from someone else's talk. Sablukov wrote his memoirs after many years, in England, and in English. But the compilers had comments and clarifications - probably, they took the words of Langeron, who was also not present, but heard Palen's story. Therefore, the surname of the incompetent captain remains open. hi
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 6 May 2020 18: 17 New
        +2
        Well, well, in more detail about the ensign Konstantin Markovich Poltoratsky? This surname is very interesting to me!
        1. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku 6 May 2020 18: 24 New
          +2
          Well, well, in more detail about the ensign Konstantin Markovich Poltoratsky? This surname is very interesting to me!

          Anton, I think, can be found on the internet. A bunch of people wrote memoirs about that night, and no one said - "I personally killed!" Most of this is a retelling of other people's stories. Bennigsen, in general, like that Figaro, tried to relieve himself of responsibility. Like, "it's not me, I generally left the room!"
          In general, most of all it is worth believing Sablukov, as the most disinterested. On the other hand, when he talks about the dispute between Paul and Zubov, who demanded that he sign the renunciation:
          The emperor, full of sincere desire to bring happiness to his people, to preserve indestructibly the laws and decrees of the empire and to administer justice everywhere, entered into a debate in Zubov, who lasted about half an hour and which, in the end, took on a stormy character.
          it raises questions! Well, there wasn’t so much time. Everything was decided in a matter of minutes. Would a drunken frightened crowd drag out for half an hour a showdown with Paul, when they could be “covered” at any time? hi
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 6 May 2020 18: 41 New
            +2
            Poltoratsky are generally interesting to me, in connection with the relationship with the Olenins.
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 7 May 2020 11: 22 New
              +2
              Poltoratsky are generally interesting to me, in connection with the relationship with the Olenins.

              well, and what should I do? request in the sense of how to move the noble knight so that he becomes a minstrel from history, moreover from normal history, that he is "free" from great tartars and superethnoses? hi
            2. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 7 May 2020 17: 20 New
              +2
              Nothing to do. Everything will grow together in due time.
  • kalibr
    6 May 2020 07: 38 New
    +6
    Good morning! Why be surprised if both the samurai and our local cavalry before Peter shunned firearms. It was the same in Iran ... but why is it a noble horseman? His great-grandfather’s armor, he saved a new saber, gave 5 mares ... and also to buy this stinky and dirty his hands in gunpowder? There is infantry from the boors!
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 6 May 2020 08: 08 New
      +8
      There is infantry from the boors!

      These louts of noble knights were buried. laughing
      1. kalibr
        6 May 2020 08: 10 New
        +5
        Exactly!
      2. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 6 May 2020 12: 04 New
        10
        These louts of noble knights were buried.

        not really, Konstantin. I mean, I’ll concretize! drinks They were buried not just "these", but "these", who began to stray into gangs with a clear organization and tactics, plus their types of weapons and armor. hi

        With the divided roles of arquebuzirs and pikemen, under the guidance of competent infantry officers, one had to try to defeat them.
        Instead of undisciplined knightly squads and a somewhat armed militia consisting of dull villans, from the mid-end of the 14th century, professional infantry entered the battlefield. And these people are exactly what KNOW THE PRICE! soldier They "ruined chivalry." hi
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 6 May 2020 12: 17 New
          +5
          And the pictures are that yours and mine are almost the same, change your uniforms and banner and everything will come out that way. laughing
          And - no, the gunshot decided everything, and do not argue with me, young man! drinks
          1. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku 6 May 2020 12: 24 New
            +5
            And - no, the gunshot decided everything, and do not argue with me, young man!

            If about chivalry, then everything was decided by the interconnection of organization-tactics-weapons (and firearms, including, of course! drinks ) And the gunner decided to fight when the bayonet finally came into fashion. That's when the infantry, with proper construction, got the opportunity to fight off the cavalry. fellow And then - pikemen lasted almost until the middle of the 18th century, and in the territorial and irregular troops - even longer. hi
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 6 May 2020 13: 00 New
              +5
              ... pikemen lasted almost until the middle of the 18th century ...

              Well, the inertia of the military military is well known that generals, that admirals (almost everything and everywhere) have always been preparing for the last war. Semen Mikhailovich, even after the forty-fifth year he considered the cart to be the best weapon of all time. request
              1. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 6 May 2020 13: 04 New
                +6
                Semen Mikhailovich

                Before his death, Semyon Mikhailovich admitted that he always wanted to be a farmer ... To each his own. Budyonny is not an indicator! hi Rather, he was even somewhat out of the galaxy of commanders. By the way, he was absolutely not stupid, he insisted on the timely withdrawal of troops from the Kiev boiler. soldier
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 6 May 2020 13: 10 New
                  +5
                  My father worked with him immediately after the war, more precisely under his leadership. Horse breeding trust of the Stavropol Territory of the USSR Ministry of Horse Breeding, father was the director of this office. As Syoma directed and how he solved all problems, Dad popularly told: checkmate, yes fist, that’s the whole guide. His father did not notice much mind. "... that the habit of horses is visible from the manners." (with). drinks
                  1. Pane Kohanku
                    Pane Kohanku 6 May 2020 13: 11 New
                    +6
                    As Syoma directed and how he solved all problems, Dad popularly told: checkmate, yes fist, that’s the whole guide.

                    hmm .. valuable information, Konstantin! good bow down
                    1. Catfish
                      Catfish 6 May 2020 13: 18 New
                      +6
                      It’s a pity I don’t have a hefty album of blue velvet here, stuffed with photographs, official and not very, otherwise I could post something. By the way, in the film "Brave People" both "father" horses and real horse breeders were shot, it was funny to hear how your father said with a finger at the screen, but this one (called a name) rolled you on Abrek, and I was only a year old then . My father was transferred to Moscow and this film was shot after our departure.
                    2. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 6 May 2020 13: 23 New
                      +6
                      By the way, in the film "Brave People" both "father" horses and real horse breeders were shot, it was funny to hear how your father said with a finger at the screen, but this one (called a name) rolled you on Abrek, but I was only a year old then . My father was transferred to Moscow and this film was shot after our departure.

                      Our esteemed Konstantin, here, one asks - "Why are we silent as a Belarusian partisan?" soldier There are such memories! Already on the article! good But this is valuable, understand? In order to give a picture of how people lived with these very memories. By the way, such articles are read with a bang - everyone loves to remember their life. yes
                      No, as from Viktor Nikolaevich - everything must be dragged with ticks! drinks
                    3. Catfish
                      Catfish 6 May 2020 13: 31 New
                      +6
                      ... you have to drag everything with ticks!

                      In-in, this is your whole animal predatory essence ... not to put a bottle! laughing drinks
                    4. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 6 May 2020 13: 51 New
                      +7
                      no to put a bottle!

                      to everyone who could write, put a bottle - there’s not enough glass containers, it’s easier to bring an alcohol line to each with a tap and a counter. wink
                    5. Catfish
                      Catfish 6 May 2020 13: 53 New
                      +4
                      Yeah, with a counter ... Mercantility above all else, and even Muscovites are scammed for the vile nature. Where are we to the children of "the cradle of all revolutions." laughing
                    6. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 6 May 2020 14: 00 New
                      +5
                      Mercantility is above all, and Muscovites are also blamed for the vile character.

                      Phil has a very cute character! drinks
                      Where are we to the children of "the cradle of all revolutions."

                      yeah yeah! Let's be measured by cities and other things! laughing
                    7. Catfish
                      Catfish 6 May 2020 14: 04 New
                      +5
                      Let's be measured by cities and other things

                      In figs! You and Anton better come to me when the mess ends, we sit at a table in the garden and from the bottom of our hearts we will measure into how much you fit. wink drinks
                    8. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 6 May 2020 14: 10 New
                      +6
                      and from the heart we’ll measure ourselves into whom it fits.

                      always like that .. Only you want to cleanse karma, enlighten, become Bodisattva, but no, they are literate tempters, then ardent, and then women ... recourse It turned out only to be ennobled by Francis of Assisi with his austerity! request
                    9. Catfish
                      Catfish 6 May 2020 14: 20 New
                      +5
                      ... then it’s fermentative, and then women still ...

                      Notice, I was not the first to talk about women "(almost S.) stop
                      But if you so want:
                    10. The comment was deleted.
                    11. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 6 May 2020 15: 16 New
                      +7
                      But if you so want:

                      ... said Konstantin, looked out the window, at the pond and the three graces splashing with a giggling laugh, and licked his lips, like Emperor Bokassa, on "sugar pork" ... winked
                    12. Catfish
                      Catfish 6 May 2020 15: 19 New
                      +6
                      Damn, I have deja vu, about Bokassa it seemed to be about pork too. I'm going to brew coffee.
              2. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 6 May 2020 19: 18 New
                +2
                we will measure in whom it will fit.
                "" Ha ha "(three times)," as they say in theatrical circles of St. Petersburg!
              3. Catfish
                Catfish 7 May 2020 17: 09 New
                +3
                They didn’t revolve in theatrical circles; here, more and more according to the working-peasant custom, it is customary here. I mean, they take it to the chest. drinks
        2. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 6 May 2020 19: 12 New
          +4
          So! Counted as hitting! To you, uncle Kostya, do you need to build an alcohol pipeline from St. Petersburg to Ryazan? So no question! I'll do it, Nikolay will draw up the paperwork. Will you go through the documentation as "Artificial Educated Living Intelligence Konstantin" (hereinafter referred to as "IOJIK") Agree?
        3. Catfish
          Catfish 7 May 2020 17: 13 New
          +3
          Hitting does not count, counting only arrival. According to the documentation, I already went to the Office at one time, but I don’t know which Jozhik they glued to me. So I do not agree even once.
  • kalibr
    6 May 2020 15: 13 New
    +7
    Where is the text of at least 8000 characters? So the question must be raised !!! Or we’ll cut off our ears and stop the tail!
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 6 May 2020 15: 21 New
    +7
    Where is the text of at least 8000 characters? So the question must be raised !!! Or we’ll cut off our ears and stop the tail!

    Hmm .. Vyacheslav Olegovich, where do we start? hi Your offer has found a response! soldier Against the cocky General Augereau of the Sea Cat tanker, of course, I will not survive .. recourse Marshal Davout Viktor Nikolaevich will crush me myself .. stop but to poke a lazy Anton, who with the stubbornness of a maniac refuses to write - always welcome! drinks
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 6 May 2020 16: 32 New
    +6
    Quote: kalibr
    Where is the text of at least 8000 characters? So the question must be raised !!! Or we’ll cut off our ears and stop the tail!

    So them, lazy unscrupulous! Correctly! They don’t catch mice at all, just scribble comments for free!
    Be ashamed, colleagues! Everyone has a syllable and intellect and knowledge, and they are exchanged, like small children, for hehanki and khahanki. Already on one small article could argue. Even without pictures - we will survive, we are strong.
    And do not need this - do not! The fact that you are here blushing in front of the monitors and tearing your hair in all places with shame, we, as potential readers, do not care and will not care. “Text at least 8000 characters” to the studio or then repair your torn karma, fill yourself with tears of regret for the unfulfilled and tell the children and grandchildren how you could, but did.
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 6 May 2020 19: 23 New
    +3
    Okay, demons ... Sami asked for it.
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 6 May 2020 15: 46 New
    +6
    Quote: Sea Cat
    put a bottle!

    We know these excuses. no It is impossible to write without a bottle, and with a bottle it is no longer possible. laughing
    I agree with Nikolai - ticks and rods! A bottle, or even more than one, is already in the process of discussion, not earlier. smile
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 6 May 2020 16: 00 New
    +6
    I agree with Nikolai - ticks and rods!

    The caliber said a truly incendiary slogan! fellow
    A bottle, or even more than one, is already in the process of discussion, not earlier.

    Do not take care of yourself, Mikhail, do not take care at all! laughing all think of the motherland! drinks
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 6 May 2020 16: 11 New
    +4
    Quote: Pan Kohanku
    all think of the motherland!

    Yes! yes
    For:
  • Catfish
    Catfish 6 May 2020 16: 45 New
    +5
    Kolya, let’s start with you! “Young people are dear to us everywhere ...” You won’t erase a word from a song, when will the article be? fellow
  • Catfish
    Catfish 6 May 2020 16: 50 New
    +6
    Mikhail, it’s good that you don’t become like the famous sadist Shpakovsky, he generally offered to deprive me of my ears and tail. Well, I didn’t think of anything else (yet), otherwise I was already brutalized there, in my Penza. You see what writing work brings to ... crying
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 6 May 2020 17: 51 New
    +4
    Quote: Sea Cat
    Well I didn’t think of anything else (yet)

    Thought, a sinful thing, slipped through, repent. repeat But, in my deep conviction, to deprive a person (or a cat) of something should only be done, and not done. Someone will write an article on the topic of pseudo-history, I’ll be the first to propose “cutting, cutting to hell, without waiting for peritonitis”. And for lazy people - only in karma, let them suffer morally. smile
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 6 May 2020 19: 33 New
    +2
    Drop it, uncle! This is human envy, but bright, in my humble understanding.
    For this, I remain, my nephew sincerely loving you!
  • Catfish
    Catfish 7 May 2020 17: 15 New
    +3
    Somehow about bright envy, doubts arose. request
  • Krasnodar
    Krasnodar 6 May 2020 17: 54 New
    +3
    I had another Muse of writing texts - not a bottle laughing
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 6 May 2020 18: 38 New
    +3
    A bottle of muse cannot be. Only an incentive. In the style of "here I’ll add a glass, but for now, no, no." I don’t even want to talk about other drugs. And do not persuade. smile
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 6 May 2020 19: 38 New
    +3
    Everyone had this muse. Another thing is that I wrote my first serious text on the wave of dislike for a woman.
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 6 May 2020 17: 46 New
    +3
    Yes, hell with two! The junior officers decided everything!
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 6 May 2020 18: 19 New
      +4
      Yes, hell with two!

      Even three! Army, aviation fleet.
      The junior officers decided everything!

      No, my friend - non-commissioned officer !!!
      Based on this, General Sect formed the German Reichswehr. And when, at the right moment, he became the Wehrmacht, then non-commissioned officers became officers, and corporal non-commissioners. And, with a “flick of the wrist” a small professional army became the strongest, and perhaps not only in Europe.
      So yes! I’ll say without false modesty: any army holds on to us, non-commissioned officers! Any officer without the support of sergeants is worth little. The Americans have long thought of this, and they have another sergeant receiving a salary higher than some colonels. But that’s nothing, we, too, didn’t blow our nose for our Soviet chervonets and we can do something. soldier
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 6 May 2020 18: 31 New
        +3
        Did I mind somewhere? In my perception, a normal sergeant, a normal army, is equal to a lieutenant. By the way, Americans appreciate it. They and a three-star general can give honor to a sergeant.
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 6 May 2020 18: 57 New
          +2
          I talked about this, and smart officers knew us perfectly well who we could really rely on.
          When young flyers came to us from the school, my comrades built them in the company’s office, called us sergeants, and gave a very short speech: “Here are your sergeants, as you live with them, your service will go!” Almost everyone heeded, and to whom it did not reach, it was already clearly visible in a couple of months. My captain was called Gennady Ionovich Andrianov, was a cool man and clever. good soldier
  • Fishery
    Fishery 6 May 2020 14: 03 New
    +5
    I’ll add, and the impoverished nobility who did not hesitate to go into the infantry and stand next to the common people, I'm particularly talking about Spanish hidalgo)
    1. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 6 May 2020 14: 07 New
      +7
      and the impoverished nobility who did not hesitate to go into the infantry and stand next to commoners, I in particular about the Spanish hidalgo

      in fact, the main units in the New World consisted of such! hi Yes, and the Landsknechts also participated in the search for Eldorado - Ehinger, Federman, Hoermouth. drinks
  • alebor
    alebor 6 May 2020 11: 59 New
    +6
    our local cavalry before Peter abhorred firearms
    Maybe someone abhorred, but nobles and children of the boyars had a duty to have firearms. Here, for example, is a quote from the royal letter to the governors of 1637:
    "... Many noblemen and children of the boyar go to battle with only pistols, but they don’t hold long rifles to pistols and that short fight to the Tatar battle without carbines is thin and short; and who ride with a pistol, and they would go forward to those pistols they held carbines or squealed for a long time, but with one pistol alone there were no Nikaks in the regiment, and those who traveled with the Saadaki and those with the Saadak had pistols, and those who would be with them in the regiment, and traveled with the Saadaki and beam shooting own, and those would have been in Saadaks, and which people would not be behind them without Saadaks, and t x people have been used for many squeaking or carbines good "
    1. kalibr
      6 May 2020 15: 15 New
      +4
      Quote: alebor
      those who travel with a saadaki, and those with a saadak would have pistols. And which people will be with them half a kilometer, and ride with the Saadaki and control the archery, and those would be in the Saadaks, and which the people would not be behind them without the Saadaks, and those people would have squealed long or good carbines "
  • Mihaylov
    Mihaylov 6 May 2020 14: 23 New
    +4
    Quote: kalibr
    and our local cavalry, before Peter, shunned firearms.

    Good afternoon, in the 17th century, the Russian local cavalry still massively switches to firearms, this is evident from the categories: if in the 16th century it is mainly saadak in the inventory, then in the 17th century the number of onions rapidly decreases to a minimum percentage and then mainly in the provinces and so are pistols and carbines.
  • Edward Vashchenko
    Edward Vashchenko 6 May 2020 08: 20 New
    +9
    Konstantin I welcome
    I will express my opinion:
    1. and during the 18th century. in arming riders associated with nomadic culture, a firearm could be absent. Just saying: while the gun is reloaded, the archer will release a few arrows, so this is not a problem.
    2. On one of the paintings of Vereshchagin there is a similar horseman in the 19th century, also without a firearm.
    And does cavalry mean anything, as it got stuck in the XNUMXth century, and "not a step forward"?

    3. But it is difficult to agree with this thesis, it seems to me that the development was significant, again, just for modern Western researchers “all in one face”.
    I can exaggerate, but the details are not enough, hence, by the way, torment for weapons collectors and a paradise for fakes.
    Iranian weapons were popular in both Turkey and Russia, with their own production centers.
    Although, of course, the weapons of the 13th and 17th centuries had a significant development, even “rings” on chain mail, and what can we say about swords and sabers, in the same 13th century swords prevailed, in the presence of, of course, I write sabers according to archaeological data), and in 17 swords of course not used, etc.
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 6 May 2020 08: 57 New
      +4
      Hi Edward! hi
      ... in the armament of riders associated with nomadic culture, a firearm was absent. Just saying: while the gun is reloaded, the archer will release a few arrows, so this is not a problem.

      That's right, but here the starting point is “nomadic culture,” in the XNUMXth century European armies cavalry was one of the main branches of the army, but there were no bows.
      1. Edward Vashchenko
        Edward Vashchenko 6 May 2020 09: 12 New
        +7
        That's right, but here the starting point is “nomadic culture,” in the XNUMXth century European armies cavalry was one of the main branches of the army, but there were no bows.

        Quite so, but with the Russian noble militia, bows were used both in the XNUMXth and early XNUMXth centuries, although judging by the discharge books, of course, the firearm was used in large numbers, the riders had more than one pistol.
        After the Time of Troubles, due to impoverishment, they were forced to apply.
        The Europeans fought little with the “nomadic” cultures, I want to say the battle tactics were very different from the one that the Russian noble militia was to conduct against the Tatars.
        Although, there was a war with the Turks, and all the light cavalry: both the Hungarians, the Poles and the Croats, and the Serbs, used a bow along with a firearm.
        Or, for example, the Indians in the United States.
        The bow was relevant as long as it could compete in reload speed with firearms, plus relative relative cheapness, traditions and inaccessibility of technology.
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 6 May 2020 09: 21 New
          +5
          The bow was relevant as long as it could compete in reload speed with firearms, plus, relative cheapness, traditions and inaccessibility

          Well, yes, that’s the whole point: Rate of fire and low cost ... And with the advent of this:

          In short, Lobengulla could tell how it is with spears and bows on a machine gun. I'm talking about the Cecil Rhodes raid.
          1. hohol95
            hohol95 6 May 2020 12: 18 New
            +4
            Chinese “boxers” were no better!
            As Comrade Chapaev used to say - with bare heels and a saber ...
            Only scrap against scrap!
            hi
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 6 May 2020 12: 26 New
              +4
              Hi Aleksey hi , when I wrote this post just about the "bare heel on the saber" and thought. smile
              1. hohol95
                hohol95 6 May 2020 13: 28 New
                +3
                Hi Constantine! hi
                That is the interest - the states were only in the north of Africa and even then with the help of different conquerors. The Arab states, like China and India, were engaged in petty strife and stopped in technical development. And only the “kicks” from the “occupying colonialists” from Europe shook the East and Asia (the first came to be “Japan”).
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 6 May 2020 13: 49 New
                  +4
                  ... ("Japan" was the first to wake up).

                  Alexei, do you mean Commodore Matthew Perry's raid, which ended the Japanese policy of "isolation"?
                  1. hohol95
                    hohol95 6 May 2020 13: 56 New
                    +3
                    But the Portuguese and the Spaniards were not the first at this "feast"?
                    1. Catfish
                      Catfish 6 May 2020 13: 59 New
                      +4
                      There were, of course, but, in my opinion, they had a slightly different motivation, and the time, and the situation, too.
                    2. hohol95
                      hohol95 6 May 2020 14: 02 New
                      +4
                      But the beginning was laid, as with the colonization of India and China. And indeed throughout Southeast Asia.
                      This later the Spanish colonies began to take over the British and French. And then by the Americans.
                    3. Catfish
                      Catfish 6 May 2020 14: 07 New
                      +5
                      Well, our ancestors didn't really miss either. As Lieutenant Khvostov from his frigate "Juno" "set the brains" for the same Japanese, it was true that he was already in the service of the Russian-American company, and she had her own fleet.
                    4. hohol95
                      hohol95 6 May 2020 14: 13 New
                      +5
                      As Lieutenant Khvostov from his frigate Juno "set the brains" on the same Japanese, it was true that he was already in the service of the Russian-American company, and she had her own fleet.

                      But, unlike the Chinese, the Japanese then learned the lessons and then distributed their teachers "nuts"! They started with the Chinese, continued with the Russians, and after the Dutch and the British with the Americans showed "where the crabs hibernate." True, they thereby "tore their samurai navel!" But so they themselves were taught by the Anglo-Saxons ...
                    5. Catfish
                      Catfish 6 May 2020 14: 24 New
                      +5
                      About the "samurai navel" is well said, I still stick out re-reading what was under Midway.
                      The cry of a Japanese officer: "These planes are not American alcoholics !!!" (with). laughing
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 6 May 2020 14: 39 New
    +4
    And with the advent of this

    I wonder what were the horizontal pointing angles of this machine gun? what
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 6 May 2020 14: 46 New
      +4
      But hell knows! There, instead of a vertical screw, some kind of chock is substituted, so it's hard to say how it was in the complete set. But in the form in which it is - twist it and twist it as you like until your hands get tired, and in this case there should be a second number, and then a third, etc., change the main tape and loop out of it until the trunk will not melt. good
      1. Edward Vashchenko
        Edward Vashchenko 6 May 2020 15: 19 New
        +3
        Overheating the trunk - this is the key bar of the restriction, as PC was repairing with an overheated barrel, and thought, oddly enough, about Maxim.
        A lot of things in the hands of the exotic "kept" in the service, but maxim didn’t reach
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 6 May 2020 15: 26 New
          +6
          It didn’t work either, although several boxes were sent to us from the factory with a complete set: the body of a machine gun, an unassembled machine, spare trunks and a bolt, everything was in pushhal, a box with boxes, tapes (without cartridges) in them, I brought in him, but it didn’t work out, although there was an idea. He, go on, and to this day rolls around in the storeroom with un drilled trunks. At least I did not drill them then.
          1. Edward Vashchenko
            Edward Vashchenko 6 May 2020 15: 33 New
            +4
            Yes, gun grease is also a "substance." lol
            At least I did not drill them then.

            We mutilated by welding.
  • Edward Vashchenko
    Edward Vashchenko 6 May 2020 15: 15 New
    +6
    YEAH!
    There is an easy answer to a difficult question,
    We have Maxim - they don’t have it laughing
  • Mihaylov
    Mihaylov 6 May 2020 15: 09 New
    +5
    Quote: Edward Vashchenko
    one of Vereshchagin’s paintings has a similar horseman in the 19th century, also without a firearm.

    Greetings to Edward! I will say more: Vereshchagin has more than one such picture:


    And not only Vereshchagin:
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      Edward Vashchenko 6 May 2020 15: 16 New
      +3
      Greetings!
      Thank you!
  • Operator
    Operator 6 May 2020 08: 37 New
    -1
    I didn’t know that the 18th century, according to the author’s reckoning, refers to the Middle Ages - purely specifically chronicity, however bully

    PS Dumb Persians still advertise their "country of Aryans" as a state with a 2500-year history, despite the fact that on the territory of modern Iran, the motley Akhamenid, Parthian, Sassanid, Arab, Seljuk, Mongolian and Azerbaijani states managed to survive .
    Persians and Azerbaijanis speaking the Indo-European and Turkic languages, respectively, are ethnically close peoples (the basic haplogroup J2), but fell under different invaders - the Black Sea Aryans and Central Asian Turkmens.
    1. kalibr
      6 May 2020 15: 20 New
      +4
      Quote: Operator
      The author’s 18th century dates back to the Middle Ages -

      In a number of areas of the East, the Middle Ages continued until 1935!
      1. Operator
        Operator 6 May 2020 15: 52 New
        -4
        Apparently - and in Penza too laughing
        1. kalibr
          6 May 2020 18: 17 New
          +2
          Quote: Operator
          Apparently - and in Penza too

          I will say - it will be!
  • Undecim
    Undecim 6 May 2020 09: 33 New
    +8
    And we will talk about the warriors of Iran, including the Turks who lived in Azerbaijan and the neighboring Iranian province of Adharbajan, who appeared in this region relatively recently, as well as the Kurds of Iran, Iraq and southeastern Turkey.
    It is obvious to talk about the "warriors of Iran" in relation to the period of the X-XIV century and the territory outlined by the author is still incorrect. Here the definition of "warriors of Greater Iran" is more suitable - a historical region that at different times was under Iranian cultural influence.

    Geographically, Greater Iran includes the entire Iranian plateau, south of Central Asia; (Bactria) and the Pamirs in the northeast; Afghanistan and West Pakistan (Suleiman Mountains) in the southeast and east; Kurdistan, the country of Zaza, Syria and the Caucasus in the northwest.
  • Talgarets
    Talgarets 6 May 2020 10: 39 New
    +4
    an army consisting almost entirely of infantry from the Dalemit Highlanders, famous for their ferocity and love of garlic

    Chemical weapon? laughing
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 6 May 2020 14: 54 New
      +3
      Or maybe they also helped from the devils? laughing
      1. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar 6 May 2020 17: 59 New
        +4
        Scared off vampires))
        Father-in-law grew up in Georgia, he said that local Azerbaijanis always carried garlic in their pocket
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 6 May 2020 18: 26 New
          +3
          On a fig so that the wife does not smell the wine?
          1. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar 6 May 2020 21: 10 New
            +2
            Do not know laughing Maybe, in case you need a snack in the dining room. Apparently, Georgian food seemed to them not spicy enough)).
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 6 May 2020 21: 50 New
              +4
              Everything is simple. To Georgian vampires, the appeal of the victim to Allah is violet, for they are in a different paradigm. And garlic, although a weak remedy, but universal.
    2. rich
      rich 6 May 2020 22: 14 New
      +5
      an army consisting almost entirely of infantry from the Dalemit Highlanders, famous for their love of garlic

      Quite strange, because in Islam the attitude to garlic is quite special.
      From the Qur'an: The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said the following regarding garlic: “Everyone who ate onions and garlic should not approach the mosque (until the smell of these vegetables passes)! If you want to eat, then boil it, eliminate the smell! ”(Bukhari, 5452; Muslim, 564; Abu Dawood, 3822)
      There are certain rules regarding the use of onions and garlic in Islam. If a person uses these and similar products, observing adabs and rules, there will be nothing reprehensible in their use, and there will be no question as to whether or not angels will enter his house
      More details: https://islam-today.ru/veroucenie/ovosi-i-frukty-upomanutye-v-korane-cesnok/
      1. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar 6 May 2020 22: 57 New
        +2
        If a person uses these and similar products, observing adabs and rules, there will be nothing reprehensible in their use, and there will be no question as to whether or not angels will enter his house
        ---------
        Most likely observed
        In addition, there is adat - local traditions. Perhaps these violations were not considered very egregious)). And from the 10th to the 30s of the 20th century, fundamentalism among Muslims was not respected, the observance of absolutely all the requirements - respectively
        1. rich
          rich 6 May 2020 23: 13 New
          +5
          Albert hi
          But it turns out strange, the forum is full of Muslims, and only you and I, who have nothing to do with Islam, noticed this inconsistency
          1. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar 6 May 2020 23: 16 New
            +3
            laughing
            With all due respect to Muslims, for the most part, Russian-speaking adherents of Islam "float" in religious matters, about Arabic - even I, with my patrol knowledge of the language, can give most of them a head start))).
  • Yaik Cossack
    Yaik Cossack 6 May 2020 23: 12 New
    +6
    In the caption to the illustration, the Warriors of Iran of the X-XI centuries mistake: 1 - not the Sassanid horseman of the X century, but the Samanid horseman. In the original English so it is written. And what kind of Sassanids can be by the XNUMXth century?
    1. The comment was deleted.
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    3. abrakadabre
      abrakadabre 7 May 2020 16: 13 New
      +2
      Quote: Yaitsky Cossack
      In the caption to the illustration, Warriors of Iran X-XI centuries error

      The article is generally full of errors. Both small ones, like the one you indicated, and large, principled ones. For example, to describe the 10th-13th centuries and provide illustrations for the 17th-19th centuries, to put it mildly, it is not correct for a serious article. For this, no justification is given at all. Even erroneous ones, like "especially persistent traditionality."
    4. kalibr
      7 May 2020 17: 07 New
      +1
      The font was very small. And think ... alas, no. Yes, sometimes. It’s good that there are such attentive people like you.
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  • Molot1979
    Molot1979 8 May 2020 14: 19 New
    0
    I did not understand, but how did the Sassanids pay for the use of dileymites?
    For some reason, the signature to the first illustration indicates that there is a horseman-sassanid of the 10th century. In the 10th century, no Sassanids were already 300 years old, as they were not. They were demolished in the era of the “righteous caliphs”.