Generals Krasnov and Vlasov: who benefits from putting them next?


Mr. Kiselyov succeeded. What flies into it today is incomparable with Zuleikha, who opens her eyes, and the creators of the pseudo-Tatar epic (by the degree of discharge) series can even take a breath.


We can say that Kiselev caused a fire on himself. Well, not fire, of course, this substance is far from fire. However, what the mouth of the main speaker (and the deputy director of the TRC "Russia") said prompted many to speak out.

It is clear that Mr. shout did not want to cause such a stir around his person, moreover, judging by his statements, he did not fully understand WHAT really flew out of his mouth, but ...

“We need to erect monuments to Kolchak, Wrangel, Denikin, Krasnov. But also to Blucher, Frunze, Dzerzhinsky, Dr. Botkin, who was shot in the Ipatiev House. This can be done only by ceasing to perceive the monument as an icon, and historical figures do not deify. Each has its own contribution, its own idea and its own tragedy. Everyone's experience is instructive. Then we can populate the real image of Russian history with a variety of historical figures in our heads, and make the historical experience richer. In each, positive energy must be allocated, and then they will nourish us, not destroy us.

The list was handed to Kiselev, of course, that one. Blucher, Kolchak, Wrangel - figures historically ambiguous. We simply leave Frunze; he finished earthly affairs rather early. I don’t just respect Anton Ivanovich Denikin, this is one of the symbols of the Russian character for all centuries.

Krasnov ... Ataman Krasnov ...


By the way, yes, when it comes to traitors and collaborators, for some reason they put Krasnov next to Vlasov. Now many will say: “What difference does it make” and will, in my opinion, be completely wrong.

Let's get a look? Carefully and without screaming.

Krasnov was a hereditary Cossack general, and, as befits a representative of this estate, he fought all his life.

Started in Russian-Japanese, then World War I, then Civil. The awards indicate that Peter Nikolaevich was not a coward.

Order of St. Stanislav 3rd degree (1898).
Order of St. Stanislav 2rd degree (1899).
Order of St. Anne of the 2nd degree (1903).
Order of St. Vladimir 4th degree with swords and bow (1905).
Swords and bow to the Order of St. Stanislav 3rd degree (1906).
Order of St. Vladimir 3rd degree (1913).
Order of St. Stanislav of the 1st degree with swords (VP ​​1.05.1915).
Swords for the Order of St. Vladimir 3rd degree (VP 5.03.1915).
Georgievskoe weapon (VP 25.07.1915).
Order of St. Anne of the 1st degree with swords (VP ​​2.08.1915).
Order of St. George 4th degree (VP 30.12.1915).
Order of St. Vladimir of the 2nd degree with swords (VP ​​10.12.1916).

Even Tsar Nikolai II wrote about the ataman Krasnov in his diary.

But the career ended in the Civil War. Yes, Krasnov took a clear anti-Bolshevik position, but was, let's say, somewhat frantic and clearly went too far in his aspirations. Therefore, he was in eternal conflict with the same Denikin, who eventually asked him from the army.


Krasnov and Denikin

Krasnov left for Germany, where he received citizenship and began to engage in journalism. He wrote books and magazines where he zealously criticized the USSR.

And when Hitler came to power, then at Krasnov everything was combed. Krasnov saw in Hitler both a chance for himself and a force that could be relied upon in the war with the Soviet Union, which Krasnov was still an adversary to the last drop of blood.

Therefore, in the forefront, Krasnov rushed to swear allegiance to Hitler, and not only personally, but also dragged the emigrant Cossacks along with him. He served, as they say, not for fear, but for conscience in half with hatred.

Considering that the Germans themselves were willing to cooperate with Russian emigrants and oppositionists, it is clear that they accepted Krasnov with open arms.

And then the chieftain really went too far. Anton Ivanovich Denikin, who already could not stand him even in that life, was indignant and made several speeches that forever drew the line between the Russian emigrants. And today we recall some as individuals who are controversial in historical terms, while others pass by us as traitors.

The first and second are debatable. However, Denikin really should say "thank you" for the fact that the smartest part of the emigration did not go after Hitler to Hitler. Smart people, you know, are always more dangerous than cannon fodder ...

On June 22, 1941, Krasnov made an appeal:

“I ask you to tell all the Cossacks that this war is not against Russia, but against the Communists ... May God help German weapons and Hitler! Let them do what the Russians did in Prussia in 1813. ”

In addition, the chieftain became the author of the "Cossack oath", which sounded like this:

“I promise and swear by the Almighty God, before the Holy Gospel, that I will serve the Leader of the New Europe and the German People Adolf Hitler faithfully and will fight Bolshevism without sparing my life to the last drop of blood. I will execute all laws and orders, from the chiefs given by the Leader of the German People Adolf Hitler, who I have given, with all my strength and will. In what may the Lord God Almighty help me. In conclusion of this oath, the whole Word and the Cross of my Savior. Amen".

Well, until the very end of Nazi Germany, Krasnov was the most devoted supporter of Hitler with all the ensuing consequences. And, I must say, pretty consistently fought until the end of Germany. He just preferred to naturally rush to the West and surrender to the British.

And now, of course, such an interesting question: why did Krasnov not please the British, who had never been our friends (rather, on the contrary), that they betrayed him? In principle, it’s not so important, I think the point here is precisely the fanatical devotion to the Führer. But this is my version, the point is that they returned to the USSR as unnecessary.

Well, ours, remembering everything from 1917, awarded Ataman Krasnov with a rope. On January 16, 1947, at the age of 78, the former head of the Main Directorate of Cossack Forces of the Imperial Ministry of the Eastern Occupied Territories of Germany was hanged according to the sentence of the Supreme Court of the USSR.

Together with his associates.

Do you see a traitor here? Personally, I do not see. Ataman Krasnov did not betray anything to earn the title of traitor. It was an enemy. Yes, speaking with our ancestors in the same language, one, let's say, blood accessories, but - the enemy. He did not swear allegiance to our country, fiercely hated it, and fought with it to the last. And - a loser.

In principle, Krasnov was worthy of a bullet. As an officer of the enemy army. But as a Russian, who called and promoted the murders of Russians, - I'm sorry. But as a faithful and devoted servant of Hitler - even more so.

So if about the bullet I can still argue something like that, then regarding the monuments and the place in history - thank you.

The place for Krasnov is in the same place as, for example, the French pack of similar organisms that licked Hitler’s shoes with great pleasure and shot at their own citizens. It is worth remembering their names, we will return to them: Marcel Boukard Marcel (The French Movement), Jacques Doriot (The National People’s Party), Eugene Delonclés (The Social Revolutionary Movement), Pierre Clementi (The French National Unity Party) ) and Pierre Constantini (French League).

The place for such personalities is only there, next to Hitler. On the side of the losers in that war, in hell.

But Vlasov is a completely different matter.

Photos, sorry, will not be. And so the dirt spread in the article. Although ... This one. The best photo of Vlasov.

Generals Krasnov and Vlasov: who benefits from putting them next?

Agronomist-loser, who decided that the army is more satisfying and promising. Yes, the command courses went to Vlasov's benefit, he managed to fight with Denikin and Wrangel, which provided him with a good career in the army.

Vlasov was appreciated. And rated very well. Among those who spoke decently about him were Khrushchev and Zhukov. There were orders, posts, and all the rest that belonged to the general. And of course, everything was due from Vlasov: party membership card in his pocket, following the party's course, loyalty to the oath, and so on.

And, accordingly, the level of trust was quite right up to foreign trips and work as a military attaché in China.

And nothing? In fact, yes.

I agree that in the tragedy of Vlasov’s 2nd Army there are many points worth discussing, but they do not soften or justify what the commander of Vlasov did.

Well, Vlasov was too eager to rush to cooperate with the Germans. He too readily forgot about the fidelity of the party, the fidelity to the oath. Too - this is because even the Germans saw it. It is no secret that the German command wanted to see General Dmitry Karbyshev at the head of the ROA, but ... General Karbyshev was more firm in his actions than others in words.

And if you look thoughtfully, perhaps the Germans trusted the Cossacks of Krasnov more than the Vlasovites. And initially. For still, there is a difference between those who come to serve voluntarily in the name of some ideals and those recruited from concentration camps.

But here the question is precisely what Krasnov and Vlasov were people of a completely different sense. Yes, they met in the framework of the project to create KONR (a unified organization of Russian anti-Bolshevik forces), but they could not agree, which only confirms my message.

Although there was a common between them. But I do not set the goal of exploring in detail what united them, this is already understandable. Service to Hitler and the rope in the former homeland. Deserved rope, note.

So what's wrong?

But a lot is wrong.

Throughout his life, General Krasnov fiercely hated the Bolsheviks, who had created a new state on the ruins of the Russian Empire, which ataman Krasnov defended as he spared himself. Undoubtedly, right?

General Vlasov swore allegiance to the country that Krasnov so passionately wanted to destroy. But when it seemed to General Vlasov’s thin mental structure that things were incompatible with his concepts, he immediately did everything to be on the German side.

But even this could not be the end of history, in 1945, when the ridge of Germany was broken, Vlasov tried to negotiate with both the Americans and the Spaniards (with General Franco almost came out) for the next wholesale sale of ROA in good hands.

Krasnov, excuse me, stood to the end. A stubborn anti-communist on the one hand and an ordinary temporary defector on the other. Yes, it’s understandable why they couldn’t agree, the difference between them is too big.

And here it is very difficult to talk about betrayal. About treason.

Krasnov ... Krasnov was not a citizen of the USSR. He was not even a citizen of the RSFSR from which the Soviet Union was born. Krasnov immediately became a citizen of Germany from a citizen of Tsarist Russia.

Do we have claims of such a plan against Manstein? To Guderian? Weihsu? No. These are ordinary enemies. Krasnov, perhaps, is comparable with Mannerheim, which is similar in that it is also rooted in the Russian Empire and also tried to fight. Mannerheim was more fortunate, for some reason he did not go to court at all.

And Vlasov? And for Vlasov, I also have an analogy. Yes, and in the German camp there was one like that ... Everyone already understood who they were talking about. That's right, Friedrich Wilhelm Ernst Paulus, Field Marshal, who also really wanted to live.


Yes, I got such a couple. Both faithfully served their country, both went to the enemy camp, becoming "fighters with the regime." Yes, Paulus was useful and beneficial to us, but not his radio broadcast and signature on the flyers were fatal for Germany.

In essence, both are traitors and sworn nobodies.

And now we come to the most interesting part. To the conclusion.

Mr. Kiselev put Krasnov on a par with those who seemingly deserve a monument, that is, memory.

Excuse me, Mr. Kiselev, not in this Russia. In this Russia, you can calmly take to the streets of cities and ask the question “Who is General Krasnov” to everyone in a row in the age category of 15 to 40 years. I am sure that the answer will be one: “And who knows!”

In fairness, the same can be said about Frunze and Blucher.

These people, first of all, through the efforts of our government, which is trying by all means to turn the younger generations into degenerates with the help of the insanely wretched school curriculum on history, have sunk into oblivion.

General Krasnov is the enemy. Normal and honest enemy. Enemies do not have monuments, Mr. Kiselev!

The fact that our authorities opened a memorial plaque to Mannerheim is, excuse me, speaks only about the lack of education from the former Minister of Education. But here it is absolutely normal business.


The fact that today the power mouthpiece on the main television channel says that it is necessary to erect monuments to enemies, by the way, without embarrassing, is also normal.

In a state where there is no ideology at all, everything is possible.



However, following the monument to Krasnov ... By the way, who will we bow to on an alternative basis? Mentioned Manstein? Keitel? Or all at once, why trifle? Or…

I repeat: they don’t put monuments to the enemies. An enemy, especially a defeated one in a heavy battle, can and should be respected. But do not honor and remember when erecting monuments.

Out of respect, General Krasnov deserved a bullet, not a rope. This is, as it were, my opinion, based on the above evidence. But so it turned out that the rope ... Rehabilitate Hitler's servant due to the fact that they were not executed correctly? Well, perhaps this is too much.

General Vlasov, Judah, who betrayed his homeland exclusively for a well-fed and rich life, received what he was supposed to receive. The above twisted or twisted, natural fiber product. Legally and unconditionally.

And no nonsense disguised as a “struggle with the regime”. Traitors in general must be deleted from history.

The fact that in our country they are increasingly dragged out of the darkness of history is, of course, sad. Alas, this is our everyday routine. How dear we are today, not everyone understands. But the fact that she is, to put it mildly, crooked, is already clear and understandable today.

Tomorrow we will erect a monument to the enemy, even the former compatriot, and the day after tomorrow we will honor Judas, the traitor and the traitor.

Decent alignment for the "Great Russia", which the whole world owes, is not it?
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  1. Dart2027 4 May 2020 15: 10 New
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    A sound argument that you do not need to write everyone down to traitors.
    1. Lexus 4 May 2020 15: 35 New
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      The message is that you should not record traitors and enemies in Heroes.
      1. Insurgent 4 May 2020 15: 47 New
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        Quote: lexus
        The message is that you should not record traitors and enemies in Heroes.


        Generals Krasnov and Vlasov: who benefits from putting them next?

        History, the memory of the people, has already determined a place for them, which is fully confirmed by the Nuremberg sentence.

        Everything else is still timid revenge attempts ...
        1. Lexus 4 May 2020 15: 55 New
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          Everything else is still timid revenge attempts ...

          I’m no longer observing any timidity. I see utter impudence and incessant attempts of power "not washing, so rolling" to breathe the missing meaning into the "shit".
          1. Insurgent 4 May 2020 16: 05 New
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            Quote: lexus
            I don’t see any timidity anymore. I see utter impudence and incessant attempts of power "not by washing, so by rolling" to breathe new meaning into "shit".

            Regarding the monument to Krasnov ...

            I deliberately understood this topic, and I will say that its presence does not contradict my thesis about as yet unsure, "timid attempts" ...

            The fact is that the monument is installed on private territory and local and central authorities sing with one voice (singing? because I don’t know the final fate of the statue) that:

            - "This is private land and we cannot ban ... tra-la-la ..."

            That is, they (the authorities) do not dare, at least openly, to promote collaboration, but they do not prohibit this ...

            Openly support the policy of Nazism, still afraid.
            1. Lexus 4 May 2020 16: 13 New
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              That is, they (the authorities) do not dare, at least openly, to promote collaboration, but they do not prohibit this ...

              So, it remains to wait until some bastard "put to the rescue guitar" put on "private land"? Moreover, there is already initiative, by the way, Roman wrote about this. Monument to the Italian fascists in Rossosh.
              1. 210ox 4 May 2020 18: 25 New
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                I do not understand. We have a law to prevent the propaganda of Nazism and fascism, the prohibition of symbols. How this villain in the photo does not contradict the law. Even in private territory. I can only guess. According to Krasnov, this monument was erected by the "Big boss" from the Rostov region, but the Italians should not be touched because of the "friend Berlusconi" ...
                1. lelik613 4 May 2020 18: 52 New
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                  "This foot, who needs a foot ..."
              2. If I am not mistaken, about three years ago, I had a dispute on the forum about the stupidity of renaming one of the prospectuses in the name of Bandera in Kiev.
                Minusov earned immeasurably, although I do not recognize Bandera as a hero in my life.
                So then, the author pointed out to me like "... we don’t erect monuments to traitors and fascists!"
                Then came the Mannerheim board, and now ... Here!
                1. Leshy1975 4 May 2020 20: 56 New
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                  Quote: Leader of the Redskins
                  If I am not mistaken, about three years ago, I had a dispute on the forum about the stupidity of renaming one of the prospectuses in the name of Bandera in Kiev.
                  Minusov earned immeasurably, although I do not recognize Bandera as a hero in my life.
                  So then, the author pointed out to me like "... we don’t erect monuments to traitors and fascists!"
                  Then came the Mannerheim board, and now ... Here!

                  hi Which three years ago? 01.05.2020/XNUMX/XNUMX in an article on VO called: The press reports on the opening in Prague of a memorial tablet in honor of Vlasov
                  I "fought" exactly on the same topic, is Krasnov worthy of a monument? And what do you think, Krasnov found defenders. Here they are:
                  Golovan Jack (Roman)
                  70+ years old man who is only guilty of writing letters, anonymous

                  sniperino
                  Mark merit any of man in front of Russia means to restore its centuries-old history in the public mind

                  Krasnov in general has his own way: he didn’t leave the Civil, he could not forgive the Bolsheviks for the genocide of the Cossacks, the elected position did not allow.


                  And which is characteristic, both of these characters are in the front ranks of the power guards.
                  There is probably some kind of relationship in these matters. The more he defends today's power, the greater the anti-Soviet turns out to be. And to such an extent, people fall into anti-Sovietism that they are ready to justify even Hitler’s minions. And these same people believe that they have the future of the country (and the continuation of Putin's course).
                  I do not want to live in such a future. And I don’t like our present for a long time. Because it has long been clear where all this wind blows and what it will lead to when enemies, opportunists and traitors are recorded in the "heroes".
            2. Was mammoth 4 May 2020 18: 48 New
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              Quote: Insurgent
              Openly support the policy of Nazism, still afraid.

              Krasnov and Vlasov definitely deserved the rope. Not a bullet.
              I am for the Reds, but to the monument to Princess Obolenskaya V.A. like flowers would bring. There is no monument in Russia. Why don't the whites put a monument to her? I think that the “red” would help.
              R. Skomorokhov was tested. Coronovirus?
            3. Sotskiy 4 May 2020 21: 14 New
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              Quote: Insurgent
              "This is private land and we cannot ban ... tra-la-la ..."

              Read, read about this "beauty" lol That is, suppose if someone, let's call him a private trader, starts to expose Hitler’s bust on his site, then according to our legislation, will there be nothing to him? Ah lyapota, this is the legislation, that’s what I understand! Apparently it’s not in vain that “Kolenka” went with bows to the Bundestags. laughing
            4. alecsis69 6 May 2020 00: 17 New
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              Monument to the SSovts, (an organization recognized as criminal at the Nuremberg trials) fully falls under the law banning the propaganda of fascism.
            5. Alt 22 6 May 2020 07: 47 New
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              Interestingly, if a person posts a swastika on a "private page", they will close it. Is a monument to Nazi standing on private land visible to everyone is not the same propaganda of Nazism as the swastika, posted on a public resource ???
        2. NordUral 5 May 2020 13: 13 New
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          Generals Krasnov and Vlasov: who benefits from putting them next?

          Who benefits and needs - he puts.
          The same thing about monuments and memorial plaques.
    2. Svarog 4 May 2020 15: 58 New
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      Therefore, in the forefront, Krasnov rushed to swear allegiance to Hitler, and not only personally, but also dragged the emigrant Cossacks along with him. He served, as they say, not for fear, but for conscience in half with hatred.

      A sound argument that you do not need to write everyone down to traitors.

      Everyone in a row is not needed, but Krasnov is a traitor. He betrayed Russia because of his ambitions .. and in any other way. The man went against his own consanguineous people because of political disagreement and his own mercantile goals, sided with the aggressor from another state. For me, he is not much different from Vlasov, both traitors.
      1. Sotskiy 4 May 2020 22: 04 New
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        Quote: Svarog
        Krasnov is a traitor.

        Judging by the "talking heads", I emphasize, the state media, it turns out that the main thing is that he was a "patriot" and not the main thing that the fascist is convinced, the main thing is that of Russia that is not Soviet.
        Now the question is in connection with the above. Is fascism possible to come to power in Russia or is it already ....? After all, that “talking head” continues to “speak” from the sovereign of the channel.
      2. AU Ivanov. 4 May 2020 22: 57 New
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        Krasnov was also a separatist in Grazhdanskaya, for which Denikin turned him. He already hobbled with the Germans then.
      3. Virus-free crown 5 May 2020 01: 24 New
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        Although the article is controversial, the meaning is simple - Krasnov did NOT betray the USSR ... he was from ANOTHER life and fought for his ideals ... that the USSR, that the RSFSR were ENEMIES for him ... in no way justify him - but let's still distinguish enemies from traitors ... fool
        1. ALARI 5 May 2020 11: 09 New
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          The killer is the killer. A maniac is a bad person, and a hired killer, of course he is not very good either, but a little better. So what to judge about the article?
        2. freddyk 6 May 2020 12: 47 New
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          How do you think? If suddenly the communist DPRK declares war on capitalist Russia, and I, as an ideological communist, fight against the Russian authorities, are I an enemy or a traitor? In my opinion, the answer is obvious - a traitor to the Motherland. For when there is external aggression, all political differences are fading into the background.
        3. Virus-free crown 6 May 2020 14: 27 New
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          offtopic: how can I understand who is responding to my posts? ... repeat notifications on the site come - I click - I get to my post ... recourse how to find out who answers what? )))
    3. 210ox 4 May 2020 15: 59 New
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      Sound reasoning is to write Kiselev himself in this row ...
    4. tihonmarine 4 May 2020 16: 21 New
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      Quote: Dart2027
      that you don’t have to write everyone down to traitors.

      The formula is simple "Betrayed, condemned, hanged." No other is given.
    5. SOVIET UNION 2 4 May 2020 16: 24 New
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      Well, why is everyone in a row traitors !? If we talk about traitors, then let's make a determination of who they are. Who is Gorbachev? Then who is Tsar Boris? Who is Tsar Vladimir? When Russia was baptized, what was it? Betrayal? Or integration? Peter chopped a window to Europe. What was that? Prince Vladimir baptized Russia traitor or hero? Modern Tsar Vladimir is stubbornly trying to integrate into the global economy, who is this? Nikolay the second who welcomed foreigners, who is he? Who is a patriot and who is a traitor? If you take money abroad, are you a patriot? And if you are financed from abroad, are you a traitor? You export money to offshore, so you are a patriot of Russia !? If your money finances me, am I a traitor to Russia and I am selling the Motherland? Is everything in question price? Monument to Peter, Gorbachev Order, EBN memory in granite! Is it like in life? Stole the chicken-term! Stole millions into politics! Well, what is the difference between the Kiev prince Vladimir baptized (sold) Russia from General Vlasov? On a scale? How does Vlasov differ from modern politicians leading Russia's integration into the world economy? On a scale? What Krasnov and Vlasov did not do, they did in the 90s! In 1941, they stubbornly fought back to surrender everything in 50 years! Does the business of Krasnov and Vlasov live and prosper? We drink Bavarian and drive a BMW !? It turns out that they fought in vain in 1941?
      1. Hlavaty 4 May 2020 19: 13 New
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        What a bright mismatch of nickname and thoughts!
        With such thoughts, no Soviet Union would be built ...
        They would have merged in February 1917.
      2. NordUral 5 May 2020 13: 18 New
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        Why so universal in scope, the Soviet Union?
        There are enemies and there are traitors, but neither enemies nor traitors are erected monuments. And if they do, then only our enemies and traitors. There is no other.
    6. dvina71 4 May 2020 16: 53 New
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      Quote: Dart2027
      A sound argument that you do not need to write everyone down to traitors.

      Krasnov became a traitor during the atamanism in the VVD. He had very close relations with the Germans who occupied New Russia and Little Russia. He received weapons from them and even help with bayonets. Including this caused him to suspect DA (Volunteer Army) .. they often turned to him for help with food and parts .. but he either ignored it or executed it formally.
      So it is not surprising that he later switched to the side of the Nazis.
      1. Victorio 4 May 2020 17: 20 New
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        Quote: dvina71
        Quote: Dart2027
        A sound argument that you do not need to write everyone down to traitors.

        Krasnov became a traitor during the atamanism in the VVD. He had very close relations with the Germans who occupied New Russia and Little Russia. He received weapons from them and even help with bayonets. Including this caused him to suspect DA (Volunteer Army) .. they often turned to him for help with food and parts .. but he either ignored it or executed it formally.
        So it is not surprising that he later switched to the side of the Nazis.

        ===
        and from whom did the Bolsheviks receive money?
        1. dvina71 4 May 2020 17: 33 New
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          Quote: Victorio
          and from whom did the Bolsheviks receive money?

          If you have factual data on this issue .. please post ..
        2. svp67 4 May 2020 17: 33 New
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          Quote: Victorio
          and from whom did the Bolsheviks receive money?

          From whom, do you have their receipts? Show them
          1. ser56 4 May 2020 22: 35 New
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            Quote: svp67
            From whom, do you have their receipts? Show them

            from the Germans - everything has long been described and published back in the 1920s - if you do not want to know - this is your right! request
            1. svp67 5 May 2020 04: 19 New
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              Quote: ser56
              from the Germans - everything has long been described and published back in the 1920s - if you do not want to know - this is your right!

              So show them ...
              1. mat-vey 5 May 2020 09: 07 New
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                Quote: svp67
                Quote: ser56
                from the Germans - everything has long been described and published back in the 1920s - if you do not want to know - this is your right!

                So show them ...

                Is this contact with a traveler from a parallel universe planned?
                In ours, even Goebels could not dig anything.
                1. ser56 5 May 2020 15: 24 New
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                  Quote: mat-vey
                  In ours, even Goebels could not dig anything.

                  is Goebbels the highest authority for you? bully I note that if he dug, then you would be the first to shout that you can’t believe him ... request I recommend reading a book prof. Pushkarev - see above - he is reasoned enough ... hi
                  1. mat-vey 5 May 2020 15: 43 New
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                    Quote: ser56
                    I note that if he dug, then you would be the first to shout that it is impossible

                    Too many subjunctives ..
                    But I didn’t dig because there was nothing. And with such tales as “arguments”, I would have looked like a clown.
                    1. ser56 5 May 2020 17: 05 New
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                      Quote: mat-vey
                      Too many subjunctive moods.

                      you just confirmed the hypothesis ...
                      request
                      Quote: mat-vey
                      And with such tales, he would have looked like a “clue”, and generally a clown.

                      if you want to slurp soviet tales - your right ... request about the last Maidan, are you also convinced of its historical inevitability? bully
                      1. mat-vey 5 May 2020 17: 10 New
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                        Quote: ser56
                        Too many subjunctive moods.

                        you just confirmed the hypothesis ...

                        What? What if there are no historical documents that can be replaced by speculation, the main thing is to "scream" louder?

                        Quote: ser56
                        about the last Maidan, are you also convinced of its historical inevitability?

                        Are you talking about 1991 or about 1993?
                      2. ser56 5 May 2020 17: 31 New
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                        Quote: mat-vey
                        if there are no historical documents they can be replaced with speculation, the main thing is to "scream" louder?

                        What do you consider a historical document? bully there is a link - read it .. or are you afraid? bully
                        Quote: mat-vey
                        Are you talking about 1991 or about 1993?

                        other events took place during these years - much more complex ... ready to accept the analogy from 1917 hi
                      3. mat-vey 5 May 2020 17: 35 New
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                        Quote: ser56
                        What do you consider a historical document? bully there is a link - read it .. or are you afraid?

                        Reports, reports, receipts - at least, at least something that can really be presented .... Why do I need to read these nonsense several times?
                      4. ser56 5 May 2020 17: 40 New
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                        Quote: mat-vey
                        Reports, reports, receipts - at least, at least something that can really be presented.

                        and in these "ravings" are given data (indicating the original source - a document) about the destruction of the Bolsheviks that you indicated back in November 1917 ... Do you have to check or go? hi I repeat - want to believe - believe! bully .
                      5. mat-vey 5 May 2020 17: 48 New
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                        Quote: ser56
                        and in these "nonsense" data is given (indicating the original source - a document) about the destruction of the Bolsheviks that you indicated back in November 1917.

                        But information about the destruction of the destruction of the document to destroy the document was not found?
                      6. ser56 5 May 2020 18: 06 New
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                        Quote: mat-vey
                        But information about the destruction of the destruction of the document to destroy the document was not found?

                        you probably think it's smart ... bully if you want to live in ignorance - live ... hi
                        went flood, want to continue - write PM
                      7. mat-vey 5 May 2020 18: 11 New
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                        Quote: ser56
                        went flood, want to continue - write PM

                        I do not believe in fairy tales from childhood ... What is there to "discuss"? What has been chewed for a long time? Do you like "to be not like everyone else" - be.
  2. ser56 5 May 2020 15: 21 New
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    Quote: svp67
    So show them ...
    have you been banned in search engines? bully
    http://ruslo.cz/index.php/component/k2/item/765-nemetskie-dengi-bolshevikov-ili-skolko-stoit-revolyutsiya
    read - here briefly and links to the source ...
    more details at prof. Pushkareva
    http://lenin-rus.narod.ru/01.htm
    I'm not ready to convince you - believe in Lenin’s grandfather - your right ... request
    but there are curious facts of his biography that are built into the system, if, of course, you want to see hi
  3. mat-vey 5 May 2020 17: 55 New
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    Quote: svp67
    Quote: ser56
    from the Germans - everything has long been described and published back in the 1920s - if you do not want to know - this is your right!

    So show them ...

    And their Bolsheviks destroyed by penetrating the German headquarters and the Treasury, while removing all the witnesses and participants ... as well as their relatives, acquaintances and friends.
    1. ser56 5 May 2020 18: 08 New
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      Quote: mat-vey
      And their Bolsheviks destroyed by penetrating the German headquarters and the Treasury, while removing all the witnesses and participants

      it’s not your desire to just read, but to look like a fool that amuses you ... request the first link shows the source data from Germany -explore! Although, probably, you don’t know languages ​​... repeat
      1. mat-vey 5 May 2020 18: 16 New
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        Quote: ser56
        the first link shows the source data from Germany -explore!

        So how did the Bolsheviks infiltrate Germany? Doesn’t it say in your “source”? Have you killed the guard of the General Staff? Or did Karl Marx help?
        1. ser56 5 May 2020 19: 07 New
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          Quote: mat-vey
          Does your "source" not say?

          read ... hi

          Quote: mat-vey
          They killed the guard of the General Staff? Or did Karl Marx help?

          probably you think it is smart and humorous - disappoint - it's stupid! request I see no reason to convince you - you don’t want to learn new things - live in propaganda tales, if it is more convenient ... hi
          1. mat-vey 6 May 2020 14: 33 New
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            Quote: ser56
            you don’t want to learn new things - live in propaganda tales, if it’s more convenient ...

            This is your "new" at least four times already ridiculed - in the 20-30s, 50-60s, 80-90s, well, in the 21st century more than once ... Nowadays, being waged and referring to Sisson's fakes is the same from which distant parallel world must wander ..
          2. ser56 6 May 2020 17: 21 New
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            Quote: mat-vey
            This is your "new" at least four times already raised a laugh

            1) I indicated the date - 1920 - can this be new? bully
            2) everything that you don’t like to declare as fakes is an old method of propaganda ... hi
            however, there are facts - VIL was released in AB 1914, passed through Germany in 1917, its policy in 1918 is anti-state, but in the interests of Germany ... wink And he returned the gold - 100t ... crying
            “Only one document was found in Russia related to this problem. It was found in the so-called“ Special Folders ”of the Politburo of the CPSU Central Committee, General Dmitry Volkogonov, who gained access to Soviet secret archives after the collapse of the USSR, and the famous historian Anatoly Latyshev.

            Top secret. People’s Commissariat for Foreign Affairs.

            Petrograd, November 16, 1917.

            Chairman of the Council of People's Commissars

            According to the decree issued by the meeting of people's commissars Comrade Lenin, Trotsky, Podvoisky, Dybenko and Volodarsky, we have fulfilled the following:

            1. In the archive of the commission of justice from the case of “treason” of Comrade Lenin, Trotsky, Kozlovsky, Kollontai and others, the order of the German Imperial Bank No. 7433 of March 2, 1917 on the release of money to comrade Lenin, Zinoviev, Kamenev was withdrawn Trotsky, Sumenson, Kozlovsky and others for promoting peace in Russia.

            2. Checked all the books of Nia Bank in Stockholm, concluding the accounts of Comrade Lenin, Trotsky, Zinoviev and others, opened on the warrant of the German Imperial Bank No. 2754. These books were transferred to Comrade Müller, sent from Berlin.

            Commissioners of the People's Commissar for Foreign Affairs

            E. Polivanov, G. Zalkind.

            Left-wing Russian historians, stubbornly denying the obvious facts, naturally declared this document a fake. "Are you sure this is a perestroika fake too?" bully
          3. mat-vey 6 May 2020 18: 07 New
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            Did you advise something about “using the search engine”? Try to follow the advice yourself - type “Sisson.” There are already 90 years of explanations for all of these “documents” of yours. Well, you’ll be interested in one about the “sealed carriage” - there are at least four calls there were hundreds of all kinds of "political" with "all kinds of" politicians "
            Quote: ser56
            1) I indicated the date - 1920 - can this be new?

            Well, for a long time it has already been exposed and disassembled and sucked - I "pointed out" to you in the 20-30s ...
            Quote: ser56
            2) everything that you don’t like to declare as fakes is an old method of propaganda ...

            And this fake is so old that sympathy is already for those who still rush with it ..
          4. ser56 6 May 2020 19: 35 New
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            Quote: mat-vey
            Well, for one thing about the "sealed wagon" you will take an interest - there were at least four calls and hundreds of all kinds of "political" with "all kinds of" politicians "

            Does this change anything in essence? Are the events of 1914 or 1917? Or do you want to see the chain? bully
            Quote: mat-vey
            There on all these your "documents"

            They are not mine request
            Quote: mat-vey
            already sympathy is for those who still rush with her ..

            your stubbornness in the Short Course is tender hi however - as you wish, live in the shower with VIL, a good grandfather who, however, urged to shoot people like insects ... do you want a link? their PPP? bully
          5. mat-vey 7 May 2020 14: 42 New
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            Quote: ser56
            your stubbornness in the Short Course is tender

            Your blind faith in the fakes that were taken apart, taken apart on shelves almost a hundred years ago, causes simple sympathy ...
            Quote: ser56
            who really called to shoot people like insects ... want a link?

            Come on - you have a collection of all kinds of ancient fakes.
            PySy - from you it never sounded like the Bolsheviks managed to destroy documents in the German archives ..
          6. mat-vey 7 May 2020 14: 46 New
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            Quote: ser56
            Well, for one thing about the "sealed wagon" you will take an interest - there were at least four calls and hundreds of all kinds of "political" with "all kinds of" politicians "

            Does this change anything in essence? Are the events of 1914 or 1917? Or do you want to see the chain?

            and what is your “essence”? Did the Germans have a time machine?
          7. ser56 7 May 2020 15: 36 New
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            Quote: mat-vey
            and what is your “essence”? Did the Germans have a time machine?

            trite - they planned to use the revolutionaries to decompose the army, and did it request
            like no japanese at 05
            Quote: mat-vey
            who took apart took apart on shelves

            Are you talking about a collection in German? hi
            Quote: mat-vey
            from you it never sounded like the Bolsheviks managed to destroy documents in the German archives ..

            yes trite - the Germans themselves removed the traces, although they didn’t hide it especially ... request
            Quote: mat-vey
            you have a collection of all kinds of ancient fakes.

            aha, VIL - "How do we organize a competition" ... will you find yourself? repeat
          8. mat-vey 7 May 2020 15: 42 New
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            Quote: ser56
            trite - they planned to use the revolutionaries to decompose the army

            With you, in principle, everything is clear - when your supposedly decomposers of the army went to Russia, the army did not need to be "decomposed" yet .. well at least the fact that the "Bolsheviks overthrew the tsar" does not sound ..
            Quote: ser56
            from you it never sounded like the Bolsheviks managed to destroy documents in the German archives ..

            yes trite - the Germans themselves removed the traces, although they didn’t hide it especially ...

            Again, "okumenty" from the Sisson series will be? Please ..
          9. ser56 7 May 2020 16: 07 New
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            Quote: mat-vey
            With you, in principle, everything is clear

            happy for you... bully
            Quote: mat-vey
            supposedly the decomposers of the army were going to Russia to “decompose” the army already

            1) recall who published the trench truth and when?
            2) the carriage is the 2nd stage, the VIL went to turn the imperialist war into a civil one and succeeded ...
            By the way - what chiches did he print and contain the Red Guard? bully .
            Quote: mat-vey
            Again, "okumenty" from the Sisson series will be?

            you are given links to the collection - read ... hi but you are too lazy ...
          10. mat-vey 7 May 2020 16: 12 New
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            Quote: ser56
            1) recall who published the trench truth and when?

            And who in your universe did this?
            And yet - what about "yes corny - the Germans themselves removed the traces, although they didn’t hide it especially ..."
          11. ser56 7 May 2020 16: 32 New
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            Quote: mat-vey
            And yet - what about "yes corny - the Germans themselves removed the traces, although they didn’t hide it especially ..."

            I gave links above - read ... do not believe the authors - there are links to collections of documents. request
            Quote: mat-vey
            And who in your universe did this?

            The State Secretary (Minister of Foreign Affairs) of Germany Kühlman noted in a letter to the Kaiser on December 3, 1917: “Only when the Bolsheviks began to receive from us a constant flow of funds through various channels and under different labels, they became able to put their main body on its feet “Truth”, conduct energetic propaganda and significantly expand the initially narrow basis of your party. ”[13] [14] On July 3, State Secretary Zimmermann teased with satisfaction that “Lenin’s peaceful propaganda is becoming stronger and his newspaper Pravda is already published in 300 copies.” [000]

            Quote: ser56
            By the way - what chiches did he print and contain the Red Guard?

            will the answer be? I do not ignore your questions ... wink
          12. mat-vey 7 May 2020 16: 58 New
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            Quote: ser56
            In Germany, Kühlman noted in a letter to the Kaiser on December 3, 1917: “Only when the Bolsheviks began to receive from us a constant influx of funds through different channels and under different labels did they become able to put their main body Pravda on its feet, conduct energetic propaganda and significantly expand the initially narrow basis of his party ”

            As a counterintelligence, it was mistaken in 1917, then ... the investigation turned into a bunch of volumes and they didn’t find German money .... Even your beloved Volkogognov, and then reluctantly admitted it for fake ...
            As I understand it, your old tales haven’t ended - while the fakes that are the longest sorted out come from you ..
          13. ser56 7 May 2020 17: 12 New
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            Quote: mat-vey
            As I understand it, your old tales did not end -

            "As a result, in July 1917, Moor appeared in Russia and provided the Bolsheviks with a" loan "in the amount of $ 32, allegedly from the inheritance received." hi
            Quote: mat-vey
            but German money was never found.

            why did they find ... "On June 1, 1917, the French captain P. Laurent handed over to the chief of counterintelligence of the Petrograd military district, Lt. Col. B.V. Nikitin, telegrams intercepted by the Allied intelligence services. Their authors and recipients were Lenin, Zinoviev, M. Yu. Kozlovsky, A. M. Kollontai, E. M. Sumenson and Ganetsky. "

            Quote: mat-vey
            Even your beloved Volkogognov, and then reluctantly recognized this for fake ...

            stored in a special folder? bully
            Quote: ser56
            will the answer be? I do not ignore your questions ...

            laughing
  • gsev 4 May 2020 20: 32 New
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    Quote: Victorio
    from whom did the Bolsheviks receive money?

    Few people know that in the sealed car the main passenger was not Lenin, but Nathanson, the leader and ideological leader of the Social Revolutionaries. Chernov, the leader of the Right Socialist Revolutionaries, with representatives of Pilsudski in the spring of 1914, discussed how Russia would fall apart after the 1st World War. The biggest accusation to the Bolsheviks is Parvus’s money, and there are no clear obligations of the Bolsheviks for this money to change their homeland. And the opponents of the Bolsheviks did not hesitate to take money, shells and work them out. Krasnov had to pay with shells, Novodvorskaya was ready to sell for one trip to the United States, the administration of Lipetsk for the promise of investment from the Italians.
    1. ser56 4 May 2020 22: 40 New
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      Quote: gsev
      Few people know that in the sealed car the main passenger was not Lenin,

      So the Swiss Social Democrats agreed for the Socialist-Revolutionary? bully
      Quote: gsev
      this is Parvus’s money, and there are no clear obligations of the Bolsheviks for this money to change their homeland.

      1) German money, Parvus is the link ... hi for everything is normal, to take money from the enemy of the motherland during the war and go through it? bully
      2) you do not have a homeland? repeat
      3)
      Quote: gsev
      And the opponents of the Bolsheviks did not hesitate to take money, shells and work them out.

      White took from the allies request
      Quote: gsev
      Novodvorskaya was ready to sell in one trip to the United States

      do you know her personally? bully
      1. gsev 8 May 2020 14: 18 New
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        [quote = ser56] do you know her personally? [/ quote
        I just saw her photo on the Internet in a T-shirt "I will not give Russian." Only the last prostitute will be photographed in this form!
        1. ser56 8 May 2020 15: 03 New
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          Quote: gsev
          in a T-shirt "I will not give Russian."

          I would not have taken from her ... bully She is a permanent revolutionary, crazy on Russophobia ... request
          Quote: gsev
          last prostitute

          ideological prostitute is nonsense ... hi
      2. gsev 8 May 2020 14: 35 New
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        Quote: ser56
        German money, Parvus is the link ..

        As far as I know, the red underground woman was able to take money from Old Man Makhno. This was considered a successful operation by the underground against Makhno. And I was informed that Boris Nemtsov distributed $ 30 million for the subversive and sabotage struggle with Russia before his death. I suppose that part of this money was intended to replicate the charges against Lenin and the CPSU (b) of the 20s. The fact that the Germans handed over shells to Krasnov six months later to shoot at the Bolsheviks says that the Bolsheviks were the main enemies in Russia after the October Revolution. And Krasnov was a puppet of the German military.
  • gsev 4 May 2020 20: 22 New
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    Quote: dvina71
    Krasnov became a traitor during the atamanism in the VVD.

    I think that Krasnov would prefer to win the civil war himself. However, the situation was that he had to reckon with powerful players in his environment. In the summer of 1918, he more openly accepted help from the Germans than Denikin. And getting 2 times more shells from the Germans had to show at least 2 times more their loyalty. In 1920, the Bolsheviks apparently overestimated the threat from Wrangel to Gallipoli and surrendered the Armenian Kars and Ararat to the Turks. And on the other hand, do not be in concession to Kars Ataturk, there was no testament of his friendship with Russia, which was probably a kettlebell that prevented Turkey from entering the war in an alliance with Bulgaria and Germany in 1941.
  • svp67 4 May 2020 17: 32 New
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    Do you see a traitor here? Personally, I do not see.
    But I see. Krasnov, no matter how they tried to shield him - a collaborator. That is, a person who went to the SERVICE of the enemies of his country. And the point. He, along with them, brought misfortune and sorrow to our land. And what, someone believes that Hitler had won, then Krasnov would begin to build the Russian state?
    And they judged and executed him rightfully, he is guilty of many crimes against the civilian population
  • Alekseev 4 May 2020 17: 55 New
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    Quote: Dart2027
    that you don’t have to write everyone down to traitors.

    In general, reasoning is sound.
    But ... the gene. Krasnov is still a traitor. He is a Russian general, the ataman of the Donskoy Army, went to the service of Germany. And he fought not for Hitler against Stalin, but for the Germans and their allies against the Russians. Say, they succumbed to the Bolsheviks. The gene just gave explanations here. Denikin: although it is pathetic that history put the Bolsheviks in power at that time, this is not an excuse to serve foreign enslavers, much less Hitler with his ideology about the Russian people, and other "untimely" others. Denikin sent a car of medicines for the Red Army for his personal funds, the management decided to take the medicines, but without publicity. wink
    By the way, the gene. Krasin greatly harmed Denikin, being a Don ataman, his penchant for Cossack sovereignty and Germanophilism, but he could not remove him immediately, although he took measures to this, he was still not a rank of the Volunteer Army, but a Don ataman.
    Vlasov, understanding perfectly all the mistakes and crimes of Stalin, served faithfully and fought relatively well until he fell into a "difficult life situation" request where fully manifested. He was not a full-time commander of 2 ud.A., but was a deputy. Commander of the Volkhov Front. He was appointed to command 2 beats. And, instead of the diseased Gen. Klykov, when it was practically impossible to do anything to avoid defeat. They threw it on the embrasure, so to speak.
    Vlasov lost command and control in the "bag" along with headquarters and guards. If he had not lost and managed to slip out of the encirclement, then perhaps he would have commanded until the end of the war. And for everyone there would be a “General devoted to the Motherland" yes
    And here such a thing ... I immediately remembered the dangers of Bolshevism and Stalinism and became what I became.
  • Hlavaty 4 May 2020 18: 06 New
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    Quote: Dart2027
    A sound argument that you do not need to write everyone down to traitors.

    Well, how sound are they if the author himself is confused in his logic. In one place he writes:
    Ataman Krasnov did not betray anything to earn the title of traitor.

    And in another place it contradicts itself:
    In principle, Krasnov was worthy of a bullet. As an officer of the enemy army. But as a Russian, who called and facilitated the killings of Russians, - I'm sorry.


    That is, "the Russian who called and helped to kill the Russians" turns out to be "Did not betray ... nothing of the sort." The logic however ...

    Why is this picking in different varieties of doctor-erm and a discussion of methods for their disposal?

    All of the above were able to organize and throw under the knife large masses of people, for the sake of some of their goals. They killed many people on both sides, in the name of their illusions or gesheft. For example, the same Krasnov, so hotly washed by the author from the stigma of a traitor, rushed with the idea of ​​creating an open-ended Cossack republic. Yes, yes - after Denikin drove him out, citizen Krasnov stopped fighting for a united Russia, which he swore, and began to muddle his nation - the Cossack Republic from the Rostov and Kuban Cossack troops. First in 1918, and then in 1941. And both times, for some reason, under the protectorate of Germany ... How many Cossacks paid with their lives and the lives of their families for this illusion of his? Yes, only for this it was possible to drown him in the toilet.
    So for me that Krasnov, that Vlasov - the same abomination. Having lost the right to mention any of his merits in the past.

    There should be one approach to those who went to fight against their people as part of the enemy army. Such as it used to be for suicides: no matter how beautiful and well-deserved a person was during his life, and after the mortal sin of suicide, he was not buried in a cemetery, but behind a fence.
    1. gsev 4 May 2020 20: 45 New
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      Quote: Hlavaty
      rushed with the idea of ​​creating an undisturbed Cossack republic.

      I would not exaggerate these aspirations. In 1918, Don Krasnov talked a lot about independence, while this helped him get shells. In 1919, Denikin, in favor of France and Great Britain, launched an attack on Ukraine in order to save the French interventionists, preserve the Ukrainian railways presented to her by Petliura for France, and prevent the formation of the Hungarian Soviet Republic. At that time, Krasnov proposed an offensive up the Volga in order to unite with Kolchak and cut off the Bolsheviks from bread. But Great Britain did not expect that after the victory the Bolsheviks would revive Russia as a great power, and Britain would be reduced to a secondary country. Perhaps a strategic decision to attack Ukraine led White to defeat. In 1919, Denikin became a larger foreign puppet than Krasnov. In 1919, no one spoke seriously about Don’s independence. Just petty politicians in the Don and Kuban demanded awkwardly much attention. This is also in modern Russia. In 1941, Denikin did not go into the service of Hitler and in 1945 was given the opportunity to escape from the NKVD in the United States, and Krasnov smeared himself completely and was extradited by the British along with the SS Cossacks after Stalin's persistent pressure.
      1. Hlavaty 4 May 2020 21: 51 New
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        Quote: gsev
        I would not exaggerate these aspirations.

        No one exaggerates aspirations. I immediately wrote that these were his illusions.
        It’s just that all his aspirations turned into rivers of Cossack blood. Starting from the Don army in 1918 and ending with the tragedy near the Austrian city of Lienz in 1945 (when several hundred Cossacks committed suicide by killing their families before this).
        If Krasnov is such an “officer" all of himself, then he just had to put a bullet in his forehead. And do not run like a whore from the Germans to the British.
        And now he is beginning to heroize by erecting monuments, sometimes even of the most idiotic sense. For instance:
        "In 1994, von Pannvitsu, A.G. Shkuro, P.N. Krasnov, Sultan Klych-Girey, T.N. Domanov and others. In Moscow, on the territory of the All Saints Church, a monument was erected" To the Soldiers of the Russian Military Union, the Russian Corps Cossack camp Cossacks of the 15th Cossack cavalry corps of the SS who fell for faith and the fatherland"."

        Here's how to smoke, so that the "Cossacks of the SS" fell "for faith and the fatherland"?
  • Civil 4 May 2020 18: 23 New
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    As the saying goes - Glory to Russia!
  • siberalt 7 May 2020 04: 10 New
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    Who knows how to insert a picture in a post?
  • Lexus 4 May 2020 15: 10 New
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    Generals Krasnov and Vlasov: who benefits from putting them next?

    Roman, you know them perfectly. It is much more disgusting that they want to put traitors and collaborators next to the True Heroes of the Great Patriotic War. But this still can’t get over.
    1. Kleber 4 May 2020 18: 31 New
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      Quote: lexus
      Generals Krasnov and Vlasov: who benefits from putting them next?

      Roman, you know them perfectly. It is much more disgusting that they want to put traitors and collaborators next to the True Heroes of the Great Patriotic War. But this still can’t get over.


      What is this photo for? I do not see among them the participants and traitors of the civil war and the Second World War. Not tired of making a reputation for cheap populism?
  • iouris 4 May 2020 15: 20 New
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    An article is the result of a loss of meaning by the author, or perhaps a generation, if the author’s position reflects the state of public consciousness. The author picks himself and looks for the difference in the degrees of betrayal. I got up close. And worth it.
    It is noteworthy that it stood on the eve of Victory Day over the most terrible enemy of mankind.
  • Altona 4 May 2020 15: 21 New
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    The current state of occupation and the "bottling of the Bavarian" are generally beneficial. They privatized the victory in order to basically brand it at the UN and add to the people "patriotic" vodka on May 9th. At the same time, ideologically, Vlasov and all this collaboration are much closer to them for a number of reasons, ranging from "victory over Bolshevism" to "joining a free international community", that is, duty-free trade in the homeland.
  • Molot1979 4 May 2020 15: 21 New
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    Uh, no, friend, it won’t do that. Krasnov is precisely a traitor. First he betrayed the Emperor, to whom he swore allegiance. Then he betrayed Russia. Twice. First, licking the Germans everything above the knees, but below the back, and then declaring himself the head of the independent Don. That is - becoming a separatist in German service. Without any relation to the Bolsheviks. And the oath, the old homosexual, was brought personally to Hitler. A fighter with the Bolsheviks ... mother-reel ... The usual treacherous shit. Therefore, they lifted the old man. Because the bullets are just not worthy. Dog - dog death, forgive me honest honest watchdogs for such a comparison. By the way, the Bolsheviks also looked at this matter. Hanged for the betrayal of the motherland. And any civil war was already in progress. And he differs from Vlasov only by his last name. He was also general, was also kindly treated by the Soviet government, showed himself well in battles, had awards. And he also dreamed of fighting Brlshevism. And at the end of his fight, like Krasnov, wheezed in a noose and piled a bunch in trousers.
    1. ser56 4 May 2020 22: 42 New
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      Quote: Molot1979
      First betrayed the Emperor,

      it wasn’t ... request
      1. bya965 5 May 2020 04: 16 New
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        Quote: ser56
        Quote: Molot1979
        First betrayed the Emperor,

        this was not ... request


        It was, he wanted to separate the Cossacks from the Republic of Ingushetia and went into an alliance with the Germans.

        And then thanks to his agitation, many emigrants and Cossacks became traitors to my Russian state.

        As a child, I was nursed by a cousin of General Krasnov.
        1. ser56 5 May 2020 15: 03 New
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          Quote: bya965
          It was, he wanted to separate the Cossacks from the Republic of Ingushetia and went into an alliance with the Germans.

          you have bad facts, it was AFTER the king renounced ... request
          Quote: bya965
          became traitors to my Russian state.

          unfortunately everything is more complicated - the USSR is not a Russian state ... hi
  • vvvjak 4 May 2020 15: 22 New
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    A traitor is one who betrays primarily his people. If Krasnov swore allegiance to the man who set the goal of the physical destruction of your people - then he is the most traitor and a loop on the neck is a well-deserved punishment.
  • Pvi1206 4 May 2020 15: 24 New
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    you won’t erase words from a song, but from actors - its characters ... Stalin once said that history belongs to the Lord ... attitude to history forms the power that currently stands at the helm of the state ... another power will come - it will another story .. it was so even during the existence of the USSR ..
  • Same lech 4 May 2020 15: 24 New
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    Personally, I do not see the difference between Krasnov and Vlasov

    Having embarked on the path of service to Hitler ... the enemy of the Russian people ... they both became traitors to the Russian people and I am completely indifferent to the other differences between them ... both would gladly have brought the highest measure for aiding Hitler.
    1. knn54 4 May 2020 16: 20 New
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      That’s the trouble. In RI, they swore not to the State, but to the Sovereign, that is, the Emperor.
      Krasnov swore twice to Alexander 3 and Nikolai 2. I do not know about the oath to the Provisional Government (there was one).
      Here. indeed, it is appropriate to compare Krasnov with Mannerheim, who considered himself "filed by RI."
      One thing I can say for sure is that Krasnov was not a patriot of Russia. He was a patriot of the Cossacks, whom he considered descendants (?) Ready. And therefore the Aryans.
      Krasnov still had a writing talent.
      1. Altona 4 May 2020 21: 54 New
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        Quote: knn54
        That’s the trouble. In RI, they swore not to the State, but to the Sovereign, that is, the Emperor.
        Krasnov swore twice to Alexander 3 and Nikolai 2.

        -------------------------
        In the monarchy, everyone is considered subjects, so there is no one else to swear. It follows from Krasnov's logic that he swore allegiance to Gottorp-Romanov, that is, to a monarch with German roots. Further, the glittering of the "iconostasis", which was granted by the sovereign for his impeccable service. Then the monarchy and "heaven to earth" fall, and this peppy old man suddenly dawns on the thought that he is a descendant ready, who for some reason became Cossacks. (Why suddenly?) Then there was a zealous struggle with Bolshevism in all available ways, then Germany in the form of the Third Reich and the service was actually Aloizovich. In general, such a "winding" life path, on which he famously moved to another saddle, having gone through such metarmophoses and "painting himself in those colors in which he painted himself." Along the way, chopped off a piece of the empire, which he served according to his brilliant biography, but could not keep due to the "loss of social base." In general, it is difficult to trace the logic of the blasphemy of a known substance in an ice hole. The court ruled against him according to the totality of "merit" and if they pull on the gallows, then the degree of guilt was significant and previous merits no longer matter.
    2. SOVIET UNION 2 4 May 2020 16: 35 New
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      But what about those who integrate into the global economy? See my comment above!
      1. Fanur Galiev 4 May 2020 17: 15 New
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        What a strange question, dear? What are you talking about? Russia is and always has been a part of the global economy. They were never isolated, always traded with their neighbors. Since the foundation. Even during the Soviet Union, Russia remained part of the global economy, being the dominant force in half the globe.
  • Van 16 4 May 2020 15: 26 New
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    "The best photo of Vlasov"
    You can’t say better.
  • Uncle lee 4 May 2020 15: 27 New
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    I have said it once and will repeat it again: they deserve their rope!
  • Amateur 4 May 2020 15: 34 New
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    Patriarch Alexy in 1995 said: "I apologize to the German people for not bringing freedom to him, but another totalitarianism."

    All claims to the deacon Andrei Kuraev. https://diak-kuraev.livejournal.com/1844660.html
  • gabonskijfront 4 May 2020 15: 34 New
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    We need to look for a new ideology, without it many will have a mess in their heads. But on what it should be based, philosophers, political scientists, economists, writers should work. Autocracy, Orthodoxy, nationality and the victory of the proletariat are not suitable.
    1. Fanur Galiev 4 May 2020 17: 20 New
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      Sorry to ask, but let me ask what do you mean by ideology?
    2. BMP-2 4 May 2020 18: 41 New
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      So who does not suit the ideology of social justice?
  • iury.vorgul 4 May 2020 15: 34 New
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    Usually I’m adding articles to Roman, did it now. But ... Arguing about Krasnov, and saying that he was the enemy of the Bolsheviks and therefore became the enemy of the Soviet Union, Roman forgot about fairly well-known facts. The fact that almost immediately after arriving in the Don, Krasnov sold himself to the Germans and served them so earnestly that the Cossacks (white) themselves drove him and replaced him with Bogaevsky. And they did not agree with Denikin, because Denikin was a patriot of Russia, albeit a peculiar one, but he was in favor of "one and indivisible." But Krasnov at first wanted to separate from Russia and become a German lackey, but ended up going to serve the "demoniac". What once again confirmed the maxim that the anti-Soviet is a Russophobe!
  • Doccor18 4 May 2020 15: 39 New
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    Talked the other day with two
    colleagues. The first is a young man, 23 years old. Graduate of a prestigious university. The only thing
    the desire is to buy a house in Finland or Sweden and leave
    there forever. On my question
    why, he answered: “it's cool and calm there” ... The second is a girl,
    25 years. When asked about the dream
    replied: "odnushka in a new building
    and a decent car. "Married
    He doesn’t want to, because it’s "dreary."
    Unfortunately, here's the drum
    what did he say about the "Germans under
    Moscow "alone, and to whom
    to erect monuments to another ...
    And there are many such young people.
    Young people are being stolen from us!
    Here we are in the pages of VO
    outraged ...
    Are there many young people here
    guys? I think no.
    1. Greenwood 4 May 2020 17: 20 New
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      Well, I'm not 30 yet, is that considered youth? lol I fully understand and support the colleagues you mentioned. There is no ideology in Russia, no goal, the country is torn from internal contradictions, disagreements between different sections of society, multiplied by monstrous social inequality and stratification in society, as well as the total lies and hypocrisy of representatives of power structures and the media singing along to them. Television and cinema, and indeed the whole “culture”, have fallen to the level of the plinth and consist entirely of cheap and false shows and no less false and mediocre films. A potential young man, not seeing for himself any future in such an environment, naturally desires to learn as soon as possible, learn foreign languages, gain experience and topple as soon as possible. In MSCs and St. Petersburg, where a more or less high standard of living and salary, this is not so noticeable, and we have a total flight to the Far East.
  • Kleber 4 May 2020 15: 40 New
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    Therefore, he was in eternal conflict with the same Denikin, who eventually asked him from the army.

    The main conflict between Denikin and Krasnov was that Denikin was for a single and indivisible Russia, and Krasnov wanted to separate the Don Territory into a separate state. As a result, Denikin remained faithful to his beliefs and did not sell out to the Germans. And Krasnov ... then a three-story mat.
    1. gsev 4 May 2020 16: 28 New
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      Quote: Kleber
      Denikin was for a single and indivisible Russia, and Krasnov wanted to separate the Don region

      In my opinion, the difference was that the Germans shipped shells for shelling the Bolsheviks directly to Krasnov, and Denikin received them through Krasnov. Therefore, the Denikinites called Krasnov a German prostitute, and Krasnov recalled that this German prostitute washes German shells in the Quiet Don and delivers them clean to volunteers.
      1. Kleber 4 May 2020 16: 41 New
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        Yes you are right. Denikin refused to receive ammunition from the hands of the Germans. But the army needed ammunition. He received them from Krasnov, as from an ally of Russian origin. By this he tried to justify himself. The justification is certainly controversial, but the hopelessness of the situation justifies this.

        PySy: how do you know where the coming Red Army received the shells from?
        1. gsev 4 May 2020 18: 21 New
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          Quote: Kleber
          PySy: how do you know where the coming Red Army received the shells from?

          As far as I know from warehouses in the territory controlled by the Bolsheviks. Tsarist ministers were unable to organize the supply of shells to the front of World War I. I do not know that the foreign powers supplied the Bolsheviks with weapons and ammunition to fight the whites. I do not consider the Germans incapable of controlling their arms supplies. In addition, the Astrakhan army was part of the armed forces of southern Russia, the Germans took part in its formation and which, according to German plans, was supposed to provide Germans control over the supply of Baku oil to Germany. CM. Kirov in Astrakhan was forced to organize a defense against these German puppets, which were considered part of the All-Union Socialist League.
          1. Kleber 4 May 2020 18: 43 New
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            Due to the fact that by the end of 1916 the military industry of the Russian Empire reached full production capacity. Moreover, only in the second half so much ammunition was produced that they had enough to conquer the entire civil war.
            Famous budenovki found also in 1916 ...
            The Astrakhan army is a myth ... less than 2000 people .. regiment in terms of the number of that time, a company in armament.
            1. gsev 4 May 2020 19: 03 New
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              Quote: Kleber
              that they were enough to wage the entire civil war.

              The reason for the defeat of Russia in the Crimean and Japanese war is the inability to deliver to the Far East in 1904 and to Sevastopol in 1956 the necessary number of troops and ammunition. On Saturday, the Bolsheviks quickly repaired steam locomotives and sent shells to the front. In addition, in 1916 they were able to provide the Russian army with 76 mm shells, which was enough for defense. But heavy artillery and heavy shells were not enough to launch a non-German offensive in 1917. Kovalev recalled that during the Finnish war, the bureaucratic military also disrupted the delivery of shells to the Finnish war and troops to Khalkhin Gol, but Stalin quickly replaced the bureaucrats who did not know the state of affairs in the area entrusted to them by more intelligent and strong-willed people. In general, the revolution occurred due to interruptions in the supply of flour and fuel to Petrograd.
              1. Kleber 4 May 2020 19: 29 New
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                Quote: gsev
                The reason for the defeat of Russia in the Crimean and Japanese war is the inability to deliver the necessary number of troops and ammunition to the Far East in 1904 and to Sevastopol in 1955.


                Or maybe the reason is that neither in Sevastopol, nor in Kwantung were able to place troops because of the threat of military action on the western border of the empire? The most efficient troops at that time were the guards, but in both cases it stood at the western border.
                1. gsev 4 May 2020 19: 53 New
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                  Quote: Kleber
                  couldn’t place troops in Kwantung due to the threat of military operations on the western border of the empire

                  As far as I know, we were allies with France then, there were wonderful relations with Germany. Before that, we simultaneously with Germany pressed marine bases from Japan. Germany in Qingdao, Russia in Port Arthur under the pretext of protecting China from the invasion of the Japanese through these ports. The defeat of Russia from Japan endangered the Pacific colonies of Germany. And Japan captured them in 1 world. The reason for the defeat in the Japanese is the poor work of railway transport. Stalin with the same roads won the war on Khalkhin Gol. If the threat in the west were real, then after the victories of Japan, Russia would be attacked.
                  1. Kleber 4 May 2020 23: 40 New
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                    And how about Austria-Hungary?
    2. Stirbjorn 4 May 2020 16: 34 New
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      Quote: Kleber
      As a result, Denikin remained faithful to his beliefs and did not sell out to the Germans. And Krasnov ... then a three-story mat.

      However, the Volunteer Army did not disdain German weapons at first. Here are the words of Krasnov himself
      "Yes, yes, gentlemen! The volunteer army is clean and infallible. But I, the Don Ataman, take German shells and cartridges with my dirty hands, wash them in the waves of the quiet Don and cleanly pass the Volunteer Army! All the shame of this business lies with me! " And the chieftain knew what he was saying. For a month and a half, from mid-May to the end of June, he transferred to Denikin, from the Germans received from the Germans, a third of the shells and a quarter of rounds.

      And then, it was actually in supply with the Entente. British tanks, French airplanes, weapons and ammunition, including cigarettes. Sholokhov in "Quiet Don" very well displayed this moment. So controversial your Denikin, even very much. Gesheft raped, from the overthrow of Nicholas, jumping from the commander of the corps, to the front commanders and so on.
      1. Kleber 4 May 2020 17: 32 New
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        I explained this a little higher, only 1 post higher ...
  • Proton 4 May 2020 15: 42 New
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    Those who betrayed their people, who wished their country died, were betrayed by the homeland and enemies of the people. And it doesn’t matter from what, from hatred or from cowardice they were them. Both Krasnov and Vlasov are indisputable, without any "deep" thoughts. amBut to compare Paulus, in general, stupidity, he was a general of the enemy army that came to our land, and the fact that he remained alive and began to agitate against the war, under some kind of guarantee, is not surprising. He was used as a captured gun or machine gun ,that's all.
    1. Kleber 4 May 2020 15: 51 New
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      Quote: Proton
      Those who betrayed their people, who wished their country died, were betrayed by the Motherland and the enemies of the people. And it doesn’t matter from what, from hatred, or from cowardice.


      And Denikin was so from your point of view?
      1. lelik613 4 May 2020 19: 02 New
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        He was smarter and was engaged by the Anglo-Saxons.
    2. Kleber 4 May 2020 17: 25 New
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      You didn’t answer me, despite the fact that the hour was "shining" online. I’m not Lexus, not Malyuta, not Svarog, not the rest of the Ukrainian heroes of the information war (who now rule the ball at VO, and moreover, being listed in specific units of the IED information war). But they do not interest me .... here there are 10-15 at the same time and 50-75 per day. White generals are such scum, but all without exception, or is one of them worthy of respect? I understand that I will now be put on the anti-Soviet, but I will insist that most of the "white generals" still acted as part of the war. Simply, their desire to leave Russia united and indivisible lost to the masses who followed the promises. The first political technologies: Decree on the land - did someone get the land? The decree of power - someone got power? Here I really declare that the power of SOMEONE got ... but not the one to whom the appeal was, and they still hold power .. The labor decree - here I generally am silent ... this decree proved itself fully. .. for being late for work for a couple of minutes - a couple of years in the camps. Then the decree was fully developed .. the pioneers of the construction (who gave it 10 years), the Komsomol members (25).
      Someone believed that they were for Russia, and someone for the Soviet regime. No difference. And those and those in the end for Russia ... but someone kisses, and for the sake of holding on to power, the Brest Peace also arranged. Now bulk will go to someone who arranged the Brest Peace ... remember the surname! Trotsky, Bukharin, Dybenko. These are basic. Lenin Stalin also played a role, but at that time it was not so significant ... Stalin generally had to be silent, at that time he did not decide anything.

      And you so drunk half an hour to print poorly? :)
  • nikvic46 4 May 2020 15: 46 New
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    What Krasnov and Skuro did not please the British. Perhaps a large number of mouths. Ten thousand is a lot. German generals were also devoted to their Reich. But not a single German would ever think of talking about them with tenderness. Recently, the White Guard generals have been praised in every way. to belittle the commanders of the Red Army during the civil war? But after all, they are the victors in the formation of Soviet power, and during the war years 1941-1945.
    1. carstorm 11 4 May 2020 16: 08 New
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      This is too complicated and difficult topic. officers of the tsarist army who faithfully served Russia are also very many. and the civil war divided them. but Russia waged wars even before the year 17, and very many then covered themselves with glory. and ignoring them is also bad. like to forget. Krasnov (I disagree with Roman here) betrayed both that and Soviet Russia. he was not just possessed. it's too easy. he showed himself to those who generally became a third party at that time. Don’s office says a lot about him as a person. And I personally don’t think it’s a humiliation of the heroes of the Civil War of the Red Army when they remember those who, by the will of time, were divided in their views on the future of the country. they just saw him in different ways. and fought for their beliefs. in such a war there are no right-wingers or vice versa. like winners and losers. Russian people were dying on both sides. it is a tragedy of national scale.
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. Octopus 4 May 2020 16: 34 New
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      Quote: nikvic46
      What Krasnov and Skuro did not please the British

      I didn’t please anything. Ordinary mess. With one hand we plan the Unthinkable, with the other hand we give the most desperate enemies of Soviet power to death.
  • KVU-NSVD 4 May 2020 15: 51 New
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    If you kill your compatriots on the side of the enemy, you are not only the same enemy, but also an unforgivable traitor to your homeland, people and ancestors. Everything else is just the brink of betrayal and verbiage. The author’s arguments are understandable, but unacceptable. Rope and Amen, it would be better to forget what they called. We will leave the degree of meanness of traitors to forensic scholars
    1. Koshak 5 May 2020 09: 41 New
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      "The degree of meanness of the traitors will be left to the predecessors"
      Well said yes Maybe such a section of psychology will look into the window of Overton ...
  • Atlant-1164 4 May 2020 15: 57 New
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    it would be right to put these traitors of the Motherland near .. and shoot.
    1. really 4 May 2020 18: 07 New
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      You can’t shoot those who have already been hanged. Otherwise, this is another deviation.
  • tatra 4 May 2020 16: 01 New
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    The enemies of the Bolshevik Communists on the territory of the USSR are an anomaly of humanity throughout. Nobody before them in world history so brazenly slandered the history of their country and people, so rudely did not insult the leaders of their country, how they insult Lenin and Stalin, did not justify the invaders of their country, as they justify the invaders of Russia and the USSR of the invaders, Hitler and Hitlerites, did not praise the collaborators of their country, who collaborated with the occupiers of their homeland, as they not only justify, but also praise, made the collaborators of the Civil and Great Patriotic War their "heroes".
  • g_ae 4 May 2020 16: 07 New
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    And why actually be surprised. That will be held "Immortal Regiment." And let's imagine that people from portraits will look at the country live. And what will they see? The flags are not Soviet, but White Guard and even Vlasov (from their point of view), the emblem of the king, policemen walk the streets, the mausoleum is shyly covered, capitalist ministers are in power. Mr. Kiselev simply suggests matching the form and content. By the way, it’s funny that Ukraine was criticized, that they “reconciled” Bandera and the Red Army, and how is that? And who else will claim that they are not brothers?
    1. Victorio 4 May 2020 17: 28 New
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      Quote: g_ae
      funny that Ukraine was criticized, that they "reconciled" Bandera and the Red Army, and how is it?

      ===
      But was reconciliation in Ukraine? rather rehabilitation of some, but condemnation of others
  • 7,62h54 4 May 2020 16: 12 New
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    Since Kissel broadcasts from the official Kremlin, the monuments to traitors and enemies are beneficial to those who every year bucks up the mausoleum and stands lonely next to them, taking parades.
  • alone 4 May 2020 16: 18 New
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    I don’t even want to talk about Vlasov ...
    But Krasnov..Krasnov could hate the Bolsheviks, not recognize Soviet Russia, and then the USSR .. But if a person already by the fact that he went into cooperation with National Socialism, already put himself next to them .. and so he didn’t the good of the Russian Empire, anyway, he is a traitor .. what monuments?
  • Never mind 4 May 2020 16: 19 New
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    If such was the brave General Krasnov, why didn’t he die in the Civil War? I do not believe that he did not understand what would have happened if the USSR had lost the 2nd world!
    1. Kleber 4 May 2020 17: 27 New
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      But nothing that Krasnov wanted the defeat of the USSR in the Second World War?
      1. Never mind 4 May 2020 17: 47 New
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        This is obvious, judging by his actions! What is your question?
        1. Kleber 4 May 2020 17: 50 New
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          To your post. It is obvious. Or are you having a holiday like me today?
          1. Never mind 4 May 2020 17: 54 New
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            I don’t understand you. Another time we’ll talk.
            1. Kleber 4 May 2020 17: 59 New
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              In the other, in the other. Sorry if not right.
              1. Never mind 4 May 2020 18: 03 New
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                No, it's just that you have a holiday. And about Krasnov, he fought against his people and not building, for me he is a traitor!
                1. Kleber 4 May 2020 18: 05 New
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                  For me too .... you can re-read all my posts and make sure of this.
                  1. Never mind 4 May 2020 18: 07 New
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                    That's why I did not understand your question.
                    1. Kleber 4 May 2020 18: 09 New
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                      Which one? I will explain everything that you do not understand.
                    2. Kleber 4 May 2020 18: 26 New
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                      But nothing that Krasnov wanted the defeat of the USSR in the Second World War?


                      You did not understand this question. Tell me, what is there in a question that is not clear?
                      1. Never mind 4 May 2020 18: 29 New
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                        The question is understandable, but I can’t understand what’s wrong. I wrote that you asked me
                      2. Kleber 4 May 2020 18: 33 New
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                        This is obvious, judging by his actions! What is your question?


                        This was the answer to the question of why.
                      3. Never mind 4 May 2020 18: 38 New
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                        Thank. I understood you.
            2. Kleber 4 May 2020 18: 07 New
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              fought against his people


              By the way, do not throw such words .... a civil war is when its people are fighting against their own.
              1. Kleber 4 May 2020 18: 07 New
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                And the winner is right.
                1. Koshak 5 May 2020 09: 43 New
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                  Are there winners in civil wars? stop
              2. Never mind 4 May 2020 18: 15 New
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                But wasn’t civil war going on in the year 17?
                1. Kleber 4 May 2020 18: 51 New
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                  World War I, but in Russia it’s also civil for the company.
                  1. Never mind 4 May 2020 18: 56 New
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                    Well, you see.
                  2. Kleber 4 May 2020 19: 11 New
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                    I see that you give me cons for each answer. Of course, I don't care, but they don’t keep the dialogue like that.
                  3. Never mind 4 May 2020 19: 12 New
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                    Why do you think so? I didn’t set one.
                  4. Kleber 4 May 2020 19: 13 New
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                    Well, they didn’t. They didn’t.
        2. mat-vey 5 May 2020 04: 21 New
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          Quote: Kleber
          Civil war is when its people are fighting against their own.

          This is how to bring the people that would go against "their" went ..
  • gsev 4 May 2020 16: 21 New
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    I would definitely write Krasnov into traitors. From June 22.06.1941, 1945 to the very end, he carried out the orders of the German command and was betrayed to A. Hitler. Many traitors went to the service of the Germans. But Vlasov among them was not the most harmful for the Soviet people. Two of his divisions sat almost all the way to the rear of the German rear. In addition, in May 1, his XNUMXst division entered the battle with the Germans. This fight, I think, made Churchill think about the prospects of using emigrants from Russia as the fifth column. Murdered and crippled Germans with broken equipment in that battle could not be used by Churchill for the new Drang nach Osten or to contain Russia. But Vlasov made loud statements against Stalin and these statements about refusing personal loyalty to the leader did not like Stalin then and do not like all modern leaders from liberals to sovereigns. But Krasnov’s devotion to Hitler, the tsar-father, apparently impressed someone. Unfortunately, influential politicians find the history of Russia unpleasant for their parties. And reading the works of famous and prominent historians, Russian people often realize that their views do not correspond to his life experience. Maybe there is an objective analysis of the personality of Krasnov and Vlasov, but I do not know him. In general, a traitor is always considered a vile person. And in my opinion, the monument to Krasnov or Vlasov looks more stupid than, for example, the monument to Eichmann in Tell Aviv.
    1. LeonidL 4 May 2020 19: 19 New
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      Quote: gsev
      Vlasov among them was not the most harmful for the Soviet people. Two of his divisions sat almost all the way to the German rear. In addition, in May 1945, his 1st division entered the battle with the Germans.
      Not true - except for the ROA divisions, the "Eastern battalions" with the ROA emblem fought against the partisans with might and main both on the Eastern Front and the Western, and in punishers. In the memoirs of the war veterans, for example, recorded on the website and in the books of the Drabkin project, through one veteran they recall that the Vlasovites were comparable in stubbornness and hatred of the Red Army with the elite SS men. They tried not to take them prisoner. The “eastern battalions” fought fiercely on the Western Front, against the Allies and against the partisans, destroyed the civilian population, and Hitler’s Cossacks went bloody in Yugoslavia and Italy. And they also fought against their own, especially against the partisans. The "national" battalions adjoined the Vlasov and Krasnovites, for example, the Georgian ones were noted on the Kursk Bulge. Well, it’s logical that this audience came down under the patronage of Himmler. At the end of the war, where did the "racial laws" go? if in the 41st they showed prisoners from Central Asia as an example of inferior Soviet people, then later the whole SS legions were from Turkmens, Azerbaijanis, Tatars, Kalmyks. Purely "Nordic" guises.
      1. gsev 4 May 2020 20: 07 New
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        Quote: LeonidL
        "Eastern battalions" fought with might and main both on the Eastern Front and on the Western, and in punishers against partisans

        I suppose that the eastern or Turkestan battalions did not obey Vlasov. They had their own politicians. It would be foolish for the Nazis to trust Vlasov more than Bandera or other nationalists. In addition, we do not know everything about Vlasov. How did the Abwehr seek to use it, how did the conspirators who decided to overthrow Hitler think it would be used? Hitler could only remain in power on the anti-Soviet trend of the West and on his desire to use it against the USSR. I suppose that the subordinates of Vlasov were less active in fighting than the Lokot RONA or the Cossacks of Krasnov.
  • for
    for 4 May 2020 16: 21 New
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    The motives and causes, etc., etc., are different, but the essence is one Betrayal.
  • Octopus 4 May 2020 16: 40 New
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    Some kind of strange formulation of the question.

    The traitor Krasnov or the hero - depends on whether his case is lost or won. Now his business - the Cossack republic - is lost, so he is a traitor for the country with which he fought.

    How it goes further is no longer a historical issue. Bandera also lost at one time, but it turned around.
    1. Alt 22 6 May 2020 07: 55 New
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      He who fights on the side of the enemies of the Russian people is a traitor to the Russian people. Krasnov helped Hitler kill the Russians - he is a traitor, and everyone who tries to whitewash him is essentially his accomplices, the same enemies of the Russians.
      1. Octopus 6 May 2020 08: 30 New
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        Quote: Alt22
        He who fights on the side of the enemies of the Russian people is a traitor to the Russian people.

        )))
        Why on earth is a "traitor of the Russian people"? Krasnov, from a certain moment, did not consider himself a Russian.
        1. Alt 22 6 May 2020 10: 43 New
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          From this moment on, and after he began to fight against the Russians, he became a traitor.
          And so - anyone can say "I do not consider myself Russian." But if he spoke Russian, was born in Russia from Russians, then his own opinion can be neglected.
          1. Octopus 6 May 2020 11: 22 New
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            He is a Cossack, sorry.

            Of course, his opinion can be neglected.
  • Million 4 May 2020 17: 14 New
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    Kiselev at work. He says what is ordered, and of course he bears a gag. There will be no Kiselev, they will put another one, but the essence of their television programs will not change
  • Tests 4 May 2020 17: 48 New
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    Dear author! Forgive me for not discussing this topic at all, but I’m very curious, in a color photo of the opening of the board I recognized the Chairman of the Russian Military Historical Society V.R. Medinsky, then stands like a sailor - a surface warder, that for 20 years he has not left the deck of a minesweeper, S.B. Ivanov, and then who - I don’t know, maybe you have this photo, which shows the names of everyone who stands next to them. Both Medinsky and Ivanov are notable PEDRoss patriots, it is curious to know who else opened the board to the culprit of the Leningrad blockade ...
  • yasvet 4 May 2020 17: 54 New
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    Ataman Krasnov did not betray anything to earn the title of traitor.

    Fatherland betrayed, sold out to the enemy, swore allegiance.
  • Romey 4 May 2020 18: 17 New
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    I have a huge respect for the author. I agree with everything, but take a word, for purely family reasons, I was interested in the biography of the chieftain. For the first time I am reading this article about P. Krasnov objectively presented, with fairly fair assessments. Before that, there were more stamps. The only controversial point, the text of the oath to Hitler was not Krasnov, but a certain Gannovsky from the Rosenberg department. Which, in principle, doesn’t change things, because he signed ... But as an intelligent person, he could have jumped off, such as V.G. Naumenko, who looked at the realities immediately referred to age and illness.
  • Alexey RA 4 May 2020 18: 24 New
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    The most interesting thing is that General Krasnov was a traitor. But according to the laws of the Empire and the Republic.
    1918 year. There is the First World War. From which the Bolsheviks emerged as a separate world. But the Bolshevik government did not recognize the White Movement as legitimate and, accordingly, neither of its treaties, either. I.e, formally White did not leave the war.
    And here the Russian general, one of the leaders of the White movement, sends a letter to the head of the belligerent state with the following lines:
    And the newly formed state, in full agreement with the Great Don Army, decided not to allow its lands to become the scene of bloody clashes and pledged to remain completely neutral.
    Ataman of the Winter Village of ours at the court of Your Imperial Majesty, I am authorized to ask your Imperial Majesty to recognize the rights of the All-Great Don Army to independent existence, and as the last Kuban, Astrakhan and Terek troops and the North Caucasus are liberated, the right to independent existence and the whole federation under the name Don Caucasian Union.
    To ask to recognize Your Imperial Majesty the borders of the Great Don Army in its previous geographical and ethnographic sizes, to help resolve the dispute between Ukraine and the Don Army over Taganrog and its district in favor of the Don Army, which has owned the Taganrog District for more than five hundred years and for which the Taganrog District is part of Tmutarakan, from which the Don Army became.
    (...)
    The Great Don Army undertakes for the service of Your Imperial Majesty to maintain complete neutrality during the world struggle of the peoples and to prevent the armed forces hostile to the German people from entering its territory, to which Ataman of the Astrakhan Army, pr. Tundutov and the Kuban government, and upon accession, the rest of the Don Caucus Union.
    The Great Don Army grants the German Empire the right to preferentially export surpluses to meet local needs of bread, grain and flour, leather goods and raw materials, wool, fish products, vegetable and animal fats and oils and products from them, tobacco products and products, livestock and horses, wine of grape and other horticultural and agricultural products, in return the German Empire will deliver agricultural machinery, chemical products and tannin extracts, expedition equipment procurement to the state paper with an appropriate supply of materials, equipment for cloth, cotton, leather, chemical, sugar and other factories and electrical equipment.
    In addition, the government of the Great Don Army will provide German industry with special incentives for investing capital in Don industrial and commercial enterprises, in particular for the construction and operation of new water and other ways. A close treaty promises mutual benefits, and friendship, welded together with blood spilled on the common battlefields of the warlike peoples of the Germans and Cossacks, will become a powerful force to fight all our enemies.

    Relations with the enemy of Russia during the war - time. Separatism and the dismemberment of the Empire during the war are two. Separate peace during the war (observe complete neutrality during the world struggle of peoples) - three. Violation of the blockade of Germany (rights of preferential export of excess) - four.
    1. Octopus 4 May 2020 18: 38 New
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      It is very funny to see how people who sympathize with, as it seems to me, the Soviet regime, like you, suddenly start drowning for the One and Indivisible against the separatism of the national suburbs and for the Entente.
      1. Alexey RA 5 May 2020 02: 00 New
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        Quote: Octopus
        It is very funny to see how people who sympathize with, as it seems to me, the Soviet regime, like you, suddenly start drowning for the One and Indivisible against the separatism of the national suburbs and for the Entente.

        And where did you get the idea that I I drown for the One and Indivisible? It’s just amusing for me to look at the Belodel’s doublethink: on the one hand, the red ones - beckons and beeches - for a parade of sovereignty and a raunchy world, and on the other hand, one of the leaders of the White movement doing the same thing - Well, that’s another matter..
        1. Octopus 5 May 2020 03: 32 New
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          Quote: Alexey RA
          on the other hand, one of the leaders of the White movement, doing the same thing - well, this is a completely different matter.

          Krasnov was not the leader of the White movement, as I recall. His excellency Anton Ivanovich Denikin had this point of view. This Soviet power is not different from Mannerheim and Makhno, and they themselves are very different from each other.

          And the fact that the White affair was the same anti-Russian phenomenon as the Red one - there is enough evidence without the group-führer Shkuro.
          1. Octopus 5 May 2020 06: 19 New
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            Quote: Octopus
            Excellency Anton Ivanovich

            Got loose. Excellencies.
        2. sniperino 5 May 2020 07: 42 New
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          Quote: Alexey RA
          It’s just amusing for me to look at the Belodel’s doublethink: on the one hand, the red ones - beckons and beeches - for a parade of sovereignty and a raunchy world, and on the other hand, one of the leaders of the White movement doing the same thing - well, this is a completely different matter.
          Stop! You understand that "doing the same thing"but why doesn’t the "Krasnoedelsky doublethink", which claims that the "reds" quite another matterthat the Bolsheviks who worked for the collapse and defeat of the Russian army during the war, who sold part of the land of Russia together with the population in exchange for power in the remaining territory, who killed millions of their fellow citizens in the Civil War unleashed by them, are not traitors at all and never separatists, but very patriots and philanthropists. If Stalin hadn’t stopped them, they would have thrown the remnants of the “bundle of brushwood” into the fire of the world’s fire without regret, as they gathered, not even being sure until the end that the matter would burn out. This is the logic of people with a maidan of the brain. Maydanutyes need to be stopped in time not somewhere, but here and now, which I, in fact, do as far as possible.
          1. mat-vey 5 May 2020 09: 18 New
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            Everything here is sooooo interesting for you, but about
            Quote: sniperino
            Bolsheviks who worked for the collapse and defeat of the Russian army during the war

            I would like to know in more detail ... Millet is interesting as a half-liter of a man, of which half, in general, was in the immigration of the 15 millionth army could break up ..
            1. sniperino 5 May 2020 09: 47 New
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              Quote: mat-vey
              Everything here is sooooo interesting for you, but about
              Quote: sniperino
              Bolsheviks who worked for the collapse and defeat of the Russian army during the war
              I would like to read more ...
              Begin studying the question with Lenin's article "War and Russian Social Democracy," written by him in September 1914.
              The transformation of an imperialist war into a civil war is the only correct proletarian slogan, indicated by the experience of the Commune, outlined by the Basel (1912) resolution and arising from all the conditions of an imperialist war between highly developed bourgeois countries. No matter how great the difficulties of such a transformation at one moment or another seem, the socialists will never give up systematic, persistent, steady preparatory work in this direction, since the war has become a fact
              Again
              Transforming an imperialist war into a civil war
              Imagine, today Russia would have entered the imperialist war with the United States, and someone (even I guess who) at that moment organized a civil war here to seize power. How would you qualify, who would you call him? A lot has been written about the practical work of propagandists in the army, there would be a desire to study ...
              1. mat-vey 5 May 2020 10: 03 New
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                Quote: sniperino
                there would be a desire to study ...

                So study ...
                “MANIFEST OF THE CC RSDLP“ WAR AND RUSSIAN SOCIAL-DEMOCRACY ”is the first official document of the Bolshevik party that defined and expressed its position in relation to the outbreak of the First World Imperialist War. Written by V. I. Lenin in September 1; published on November 1914, 1 year in the No. 1914 newspaper of the Social Democrat newspaper as an editorial. The manifesto was discussed at a conference of Bolshevik party leaders in Ozerki (near Petrograd) on November 33 (4), 17. It was then published in the newspaper Proletarsky Golos No. 1914, published Petrograd Committee of the RSDLP February 1. The manifesto revealed the true nature and purpose of the war, defined its nature as an imperialist war, exposed the imperialists' attempts to pass off the war as fair, national liberation and defensive. also the centrists who covered up the treason of the social chauvinists, and the "left" opportunists of the anarcho-syndicalists. The manifesto emphasized that one of the main tasks of the social democrats of each country should be the fight against chauvinism in this country. The manifesto developed the tactics of the international proletariat in relation to the imperialist war. "The transformation of modern imperialist war into a civil war," the manifesto said, "is the only correct proletarian slogan indicated by the experience of the Commune, outlined by the Basel (1915) resolution and arising from all conditions of imperialist war between highly developed bourgeois countries." Closely connected with this Leninist position in the manifesto is the slogan of the defeat of "their" bourgeois government in the war, which was put forward in opposition to the bourgeois and social-chauvinistic policies of supporting "their" government and "defending the fatherland." The manifesto emphasized that in Russia, which had not yet completed the bourgeois revolution, the Social Democrats were primarily faced with the tasks of democratic transformation of the country: the establishment of a democratic republic, the confiscation of landowner land, the establishment of an 2-hour working day. In all advanced countries, the slogan of the socialist revolution is on the line of the day. In the manifesto, a proposal was made to create a new, 1912rd International. The Lenin manifesto gave all the revolutionary forces of the world a concrete program of action in the conditions of the unfolding imperialist war. It further developed Marxist provisions on questions of war, peace and revolution. "
                Pay particular attention to "every country" ...
                1. sniperino 5 May 2020 10: 11 New
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                  Quote: mat-vey
                  Pay particular attention to "every country" ...
                  That is, in a situation of war with the USA, would you campaign for a civil war if you were told that someone is campaigning in the USA too? But I, it turns out, on the contrary, if I were a unit commander, without any pity I acted with an agitator according to the laws of wartime.
                  1. mat-vey 5 May 2020 10: 15 New
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                    TE must read what was written then for that time, and not engage in fabrications and fantasies.
                    Quote: sniperino
                    But I, it turns out, on the contrary, if I were a unit commander, without any pity I acted with an agitator according to the laws of wartime.

                    Trying on the red straps?
                    1. sniperino 5 May 2020 10: 28 New
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                      Quote: mat-vey
                      you need to read what was written then and for that time
                      War criminals were then, are now. What is the difference?
                      Quote: mat-vey
                      Trying on the red epaulettes?
                      Do you accept red? I took my shoulder straps.
                      1. mat-vey 5 May 2020 10: 31 New
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                        Quote: sniperino
                        War criminals were then there are now

                        Are they people who drove millions to slaughter for the sake of selfish interest? Indeed, it makes no difference what Georg, Wilhelm, Nikolai ..
                  2. mat-vey 5 May 2020 10: 19 New
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                    And by the way, given the number of Bolsheviks at that time, you would have to dodge quite a lot with a revolver to find at least one ..
    2. Romey 4 May 2020 18: 44 New
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      But here I do not agree. If we ignore political and personal sympathies: 1. What is the point of fighting with Germany if it is physically impossible? The Bolsheviks made peace in Brest for the same reason.
      2. and 3. Separatism. De facto RI and the February Provisional Republic ceased to exist. At that time, Krasnov was guided by purely realism: the Bolsheviks were building their own state in earnest, and it was impossible to defeat the state by volunteering and guerrilla warfare without a social base. Therefore, as an alternative, their state was proposed in the form of a VVD. And at that time, Krasnov was a supporter of federal Russia, which in modern times seems to be a heresy.
      4. To get some basis, trading is necessary. What to do with the goods if they can’t sell them anywhere except the Germans? Again, weapons to fight the Bolsheviks, where to get it? Only the Germans ...
  • lelik613 4 May 2020 18: 48 New
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    Slightly mistaken in the description of what happened. The same thing, not called squeezed out of itself "master", and shovels fly into it ... About the notorious pane ataman"Krasnov himself was arrested, but then released on parole not to oppose the Soviet government." Well, how to regard this? If his army was called German prostitutes their own White Guards?
  • samarin1969 4 May 2020 19: 00 New
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    In VO love to speculate about the "zombie." The novel raised an important topic. What for? I don’t know that. Again, a virtual "civil war" will begin ...
    To Mr. Kiselev, I feel nothing but disgust. But his list of "monuments" is quite adequate. But what does Vlasov have to do with it? ... Those who are "zombified" by ideology will soon be called "Vlasovites" Skobelev, Tyutchev and Pushkin. Stupid General Vlasov showed cowardice and has already been punished by fate. And here are all the other names from Krasnov to Frunze ?! Well, how much can you divide Russia into red and white? !!!
    Well, in a buzz from this, only the "Molokhov capitalism" about which Skoropadsky was broadcasting.
    1. Was mammoth 4 May 2020 19: 05 New
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      Quote: samarin1969
      Well, how much can you divide Russia into red and white? !!!

      Life is forcing.
      1. samarin1969 4 May 2020 19: 37 New
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        Quote: Was Mammoth
        Quote: samarin1969
        Well, how much can you divide Russia into red and white? !!!

        Life is forcing.

        And who for you, dear Alekseev’s character, is “red” and “white” in modern Russia? I do not see either one or the other in our time. Is Rotenberg White? Or Suraykin, is it "red"?
        1. Was mammoth 4 May 2020 19: 59 New
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          Quote: samarin1969
          I do not see either one or the other in our time.

          Refresh the basics of Marxism-Leninism wink
          1. samarin1969 4 May 2020 20: 10 New
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            Quote: Was Mammoth
            Quote: samarin1969
            I do not see either one or the other in our time.

            Refresh the basics of Marxism-Leninism wink

            According to the 1848 Manifesto, I don’t see a “class struggle”. No "patricians" and "plebeians" .... And no struggle !!! ... And so the "international solidarity of the working people" ended on June 22, 1941.
            1. Was mammoth 4 May 2020 20: 16 New
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              Quote: samarin1969
              According to the "Manifesto" of 1848 ...

              Strange! wink Is there something about the "greens" there? Not about Greta Tutberg.
              1. samarin1969 4 May 2020 20: 27 New
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                All this fuss with the sick girl Greta is disgusting to me. But environmental issues are truly more important than even social justice and national identity.
                1. Was mammoth 4 May 2020 20: 36 New
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                  Quote: samarin1969
                  All this fuss with the sick girl Greta is disgusting to me.

                  Read on the next thread about Shpakovsky’s invention. Will pass.
  • LeonidL 4 May 2020 19: 05 New
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    "Traitors in general must be deleted from history." - I do not agree with this. If traitors and enemies are deleted from history, then again they will crawl into it with the help of "well-wishers." In history, it is necessary to clearly and unequivocally give a definition to Judas and enemies, so fully and soundly that no clicks remain for discrepancy. So that "benefactors and well-wishers" could not again drag doubts into the consciousness of people.
    1. Sotskiy 4 May 2020 20: 01 New
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      Quote: LeonidL
      In history, it is necessary to clearly and unequivocally give a definition to Judas and enemies, so fully and soundly that no clicks remain for discrepancy.

      They were given as clear a definition as possible during the lifetime of witnesses to their crimes. But after the counter-revolution of 1991, we were "sung" from official sources that not everything is so simple and those who gave this clear definition - "tyrants and murderers of innocent free people," which means they illegally condemned them. Everything is so smooth, not intrusive, a drop in the brain, a drop on the other, on the third, you look and the subject doubted, and then - on you, already the monument was admired by admirers of “heroes”. fellow
      1. Koshak 5 May 2020 09: 49 New
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        Well yes, the windows of Overton are wide open.
  • parusnik 4 May 2020 19: 24 New
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    And when Hitler came to power, then at Krasnov everything was combed.
    ... In Krasnov, it was combed back in 1918 ... When he asked the Kaiser to take the Don region into citizenship ... It was not in vain that the Denikins called the Krasnovites German women with reduced social responsibility ... The Germans supplied him with weapons from the captured warehouses of the tsarist army ...
  • Sotskiy 4 May 2020 19: 50 New
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    Generals Krasnov and Vlasov: who benefits from putting them next?

    And in truth, how they can be put together. belay One convinced fascist, another traitor, defected to the Nazis.
  • Unknown 4 May 2020 20: 03 New
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    the meaning of the article is simple- red, well, it seems to be a traitor, but he is not a Soviet citizen, so why judge him. he simply hated the Bolsheviks, and since he was a good man, he was for the empire, there were so many awards, then royal ones. so, what I’ll tell the author is Krasnov shit man, here’s a fact about him ..................... "When General Krasnov was released on parole," Trotsky recalled , - it seems that one Ilyich was against liberation, but, surrendering to the others, waved his hand ".......... under an honest officer’s word no longer speak out against the Soviet regime, and then what? where is the given word of the officer? they say correctly once a betrayer, and will betray twice, and there three times, and off we go. it’s right that they hanged, so he needs it. his whole life was at the beck and call of the Germans, then Wilhelm, then Hitler, to whom he himself did not offer, as a corrupt woman, but the Anglicos, for not needing him, gave up for a fair trial. dog's death.
  • 1536 4 May 2020 20: 23 New
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    First of all, a monument to F.E. Dzerzhinsky back to Lubyanka Square.
  • Oleg1 4 May 2020 20: 37 New
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    The author writes: "In principle, Krasnov was worthy of a bullet. As an officer in the enemy army. But as a Russian, who called for and facilitated the killings of Russians, I'm sorry. But as a faithful and faithful servant of Hitler, even more so."
    A man fighting against Russia, no matter what he covers up for, no matter what insults he covers up, no matter what political differences, cannot be called Russian ... And who can be called a person who partially justifies it? Only not RUSSIAN, IN finally became the mouthpiece of the Echo of Moscow ... the author writes mockingly about Kisilev and Co. And why is he better than them? Yes, he is 100 times worse if Krasnov can be justified for him, since he tirelessly tries to destroy Russia. The author struck another day. IMHO.
    1. sniperino 5 May 2020 08: 11 New
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      Quote: Oleg1
      A man fighting against Russia, no matter what he covers up for, no matter what insults he covers up, no matter what political differences, cannot be called Russian ... And who can be called a person who partially justifies it?
      "Bolshevik" or "sympathizer", which is hiding by the fact that the Bolsheviks, they say, were not for the "defeat of Russia", but for the "defeat of the tsarist government."
      1. mat-vey 5 May 2020 09: 21 New
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        Quote: sniperino
        but for the "defeat of the tsarist government."

        Actually, for the defeat of all bourgeois governments ..
      2. Sotskiy 5 May 2020 09: 54 New
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        Quote: sniperino
        "Bolshevik" or "sympathizer", which is hiding by the fact that the Bolsheviks, they say, were not for the "defeat of Russia", but for the "defeat of the tsarist government."

        But nothing, that this Government itself withdrew to the arrival of the Bolsheviks? lol
  • Oleg1 4 May 2020 20: 44 New
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    Quote: 1536
    First of all, a monument to F.E. Dzerzhinsky back to Lubyanka Square.

    Sure! that would be fair.
  • ser56 4 May 2020 22: 30 New
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    "Frunze just leave, he finished earthly enough early."
    well, why - you can remember his promise in the Crimea and then the work of the Countryman ... repeat
    "Ataman Krasnov did not betray anything to earn the title of traitor."
    alas, betrayed Russia hi He was an enemy of the Bolsheviks. The motives of his anti-Bolshevism are understandable and justified by the realities of the GV and the building of socialism, but there is a line when you can take the help of the enemy - when the enemy’s goal is not the destruction of your Homeland and people, but simply the defeat of the current government ...... and Hitler’s goal was precisely the destruction - Denikin saw this, but Krasnov did not ... By the way, RIA officers swore only to the monarch, not Russia request
    "General Vlasov swore an oath to the very country that Krasnov so passionately wanted to destroy."
    and which country swore Vlasov? "I, a citizen of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, joining the ranks of the Workers 'and Peasants' Red Army,"
    "a regular temporary defector on the other."
    all is true, but the question is - why didn’t RIA officers and generals cross the enemy’s side? but the soldiers of the Red Army - in large numbers - maybe not everyone wanted to serve the USSR and the Red Army after everything that happened after 1917?
    "That's right, Friedrich Wilhelm Ernst Paulus, Field Marshal, who also really wanted to live."
    Strongly .. decided to anoint him with mud - anti-fascist? bully It seems that the author has lost coast ... bully Hitlers come and go, but Germany remains - do not agree? The USSR did not set the task of exterminating the Germans and Germany ... repeat
    "Essentially both are traitors and sworn nobodies." in the author’s coordinates all the Bolsheviks are traitors ... request Wished to defeat their country ...
    "And no nonsense disguised as a" struggle with the regime. The traitors in general must be deleted from history. "
    the author has reported - according to it, all revolutionaries and conspirators are traitors ... hi do not confuse the obvious - power and country are different categories! Was Louis a traitor to France when he accepted the crown after the defeat of Napoleon? Were traitors to Germany those who led it after the war? And cherry - was A. Nevsky a traitor if he received a label from a khan?
    1. Octopus 5 May 2020 05: 37 New
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      Somehow everything is messy.
      Quote: ser56
      you can recall his promise in the Crimea and then the work of Zemlyachki

      Pyatakova, Kuna, Zemlyachki. Nothing special for the Soviet government. Woe to the vanquished, the officers might know this phrase, the gymnasium tea ended.
      Quote: ser56
      Hitler’s goal was precisely destruction - Denikin saw it, but Krasnov didn’t ...

      Nonsense. Denikin drowned for Russia, One and Indivisible, which did not fit Hitler's plans (but the Bolsheviks suddenly turned into such pan-Slavists that any of Aleksandrov would envy). But Krasnov stood for the Don Don Region, about which it was possible to agree with Hitler. At least at one time it seemed not only to Krasnov that way. Again, you bring down the Cossacks and Kolchak and Denikin in one pile, and they had a separate tobacco, and quite.
      Quote: ser56
      why didn’t the RIA officers and generals run across to the enemy’s side?

      There, too, is not so simple. You forgot, for example, about the general retinue EIV Mannerheim and his relationship with the Germans in the 17-18 years. And the activities of His Excellency Alexei Alekseevich Brusilov raise some questions. On the other hand, there was no longer any RI, on the third hand, the same Brusilov personally had a hand in this.
      Quote: ser56
      decided to anoint him with mud - anti-fascist?

      Antifascist Paulus, Lord God! What not to hear.
      Quote: ser56
      all the Bolsheviks are traitors ... They wished defeat for their country ...

      And what is wrong? This is the crowning reception of leftist forces in almost any country.
      Quote: ser56
      on it all revolutionaries and conspirators are traitors

      It’s easy to get down to the slippery topic of tyranny.
      Quote: ser56
      power and country are different categories

      Another slippery topic.
      Quote: ser56
      Was Louis a traitor to France when he accepted the crown after the defeat of Napoleon?

      Count of Provence? Of course. But not because he accepted the crown, but because he was an enemy of his people.
      Quote: ser56
      Were traitors to Germany those who led it after the war?

      Of course not. Because Germany is a republic.
      Quote: ser56
      Was A. Nevsky a traitor if he received a label from a khan?

      )))
      You still remember on whose side Dmitry Donskoy fought.

      Alexander Yaroslavovich was not a traitor. He was a confectioner, a dog of war. He did not have a homeland.
      1. ser56 5 May 2020 15: 38 New
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        Quote: Octopus
        Somehow everything is messy.

        so the answers to the author’s stupidities are always chaotic - otherwise you have to write yourself ... request
        Quote: Octopus
        . Woe to the vanquished, the officers might know this phrase, the gymnasium tea ended.

        1) gentlemen, officers are accustomed to believe in the word request When the Bolsheviks were burnt in earnest - they revived the concept of officer honor hi
        2) Civil War - there are no winners or losers - only the victims ...
        Quote: Octopus
        You bring down the Cossacks and Kolchak with Denikin in one pile,

        only in your head - they had in common - anti-Bolshevism, but as you yourself noted, there was a difference! But you pointed out the superficial - the autonomy of the Cossacks, but this is the result of precisely the smaller horizons of the Red - like our hut from the edge, we will save ourselves, but it did not work out ... request
        Quote: Octopus
        On the other hand, RI, as it were already,

        this is key request The rest is your lyrics ....
        Quote: Octopus
        Antifascist Paulus, Lord God! What not to hear.

        and why is he worse than Bock and the others who made an attempt on Hitler? After the defeats, they decided to divide Hitler and Germany ... request
        Quote: Octopus
        This is the crowning reception of leftist forces in almost any country.

        see the beginning of 1MB - there weren’t so many ... request

        Quote: Octopus
        but because he was an enemy of his people.

        was Napoleon a boon to France? bully
        Quote: Octopus
        Of course not. Because Germany is a republic.

        Seriously? under the fifth occupation? you are funny ... request
        Quote: Octopus
        He was a confectioner, a dog of war. He did not have a homeland.

        It's in your stupidities - he was a born prince hi
        1. Octopus 5 May 2020 16: 26 New
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          Quote: ser56
          gentlemen officers used to believe in the word

          Pretty strange idea. By the 20th year, only people with serious mental problems could harbor illusions about the Bolsheviks.
          Quote: ser56
          some injured ...

          Yes. But they could not die with weapons in their hands. And they could, as they died.
          Quote: ser56
          but this is the result of precisely the smaller horizons of Red - such as our hut with the edge, we will save ourselves, but it did not work out ...

          This is a consequence of the greater realism of Krasnov. The idea of ​​a single and indivisible was a mirage, objectively serving the cause of the Bolsheviks, bringing under their banners all the forces with which the Romanovs’ house had been withered for 300 years. There were many of them. To their misfortune.

          Unfortunately, Versailles and the Entente destroyed this version of the future. More precisely, they postponed until the end of the 80s. It is in this that I see the Entente's crime against the Russian people, as well as other peoples of the former RI.
          Quote: ser56
          The rest is your lyrics ....

          Is the lyrics the transition of the commander-in-chief to the service of the rebels who capitulated first to the invaders? Maybe.
          Quote: ser56
          and why is he worse than Bock and the others who made an attempt on Hitler?

          The fact that he did not arrange an attempt on Hitler, as far as I know. Antifascist for double soldering.
          Quote: ser56
          the beginning of 1MB - there weren’t so many ...

          Not so much? Pacifists?
          Quote: ser56
          was Napoleon a boon to France?

          Napoleon lied that he was the emperor of the French. Many believed him, and not without reason. Louis did not lie, he initially and openly represented the Holy Union - an anti-people usurper bloc - in his struggle against the French people. Restoration is a much cleaner example of occupational power than Petten.
          Quote: ser56
          Seriously? under the fifth occupation? you are funny ...

          Watch your tongue. Naturally, we are talking about Germany since the 49th year. The Control Council represented by (first appeal) Zhukov, Eisenhower, Montgomery and de Tassigny were not traitors to Germany. They, you see, were invaders, that's different.
          If your question is about Comrade Peak and others, to comrade Gerlach inclusively, then naturally every single one were traitors and every single one very vainly escaped the ropes. Of the leaders of popular democracies, I will name one and a half decent people, Jaruzelsky and Tito, respectively.

          Quote: ser56
          he was a born prince

          Pereyaslavsky. His activities with Novgorod, Vladimir and Kiev were purely conquistadors.
          1. ser56 5 May 2020 17: 03 New
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            Quote: Octopus
            By the 20th year, only people with serious mental problems could harbor illusions about the Bolsheviks.

            I see no reason to argue - the same Slashchev returned and not one ...
            Quote: Octopus
            But they could not die with weapons in their hands. And they could, as they died.

            bathos... request see the Bolsheviks in 1937
            Quote: Octopus
            This is a consequence of the greater realism of Krasnov.

            to your horizons ...
            Quote: Octopus
            all the forces with which the Romanovs’ house has grown sick for 300 years. There were many of them. To their misfortune.

            but here I agree, there have always been many fools in Russia ... request
            Quote: Octopus
            It is in this that I see the Entente's crime against the Russian people, as well as other peoples of the former RI.

            nonsense! to be a satellite of Germany for you is good for Russia? The Entente was solving its problems, the extra power in the form of Russia then seemed to them unnecessary ...
            Quote: Octopus
            it’s the transition of the commander in chief to the service of the rebels,

            1) he was no longer the commander-in-chief by 1920
            2) Poland attacked ...
            Quote: Octopus
            The fact that he did not arrange an attempt on Hitler, as far as I know.

            the attempt was a consequence of Stalingrad and other defeats, Paulus was simply the first to realize this ... request
            Quote: Octopus
            Not so much? Pacifists?

            who advocated the defeat of his country ...
            Quote: Octopus
            Restoration is a much cleaner example of occupational power than Petten.

            I see no reason to argue - this is a matter of taste, I note that Pétain didn’t go anywhere, but Louis was the result of the wars of France! The Franks, and not only they, were completely fattening under the occupation ...

            Quote: Octopus
            anti-people usurper bloc - in its struggle against the French people

            Rave! Who called the French to Moscow? Alexander was a darling, I would have plundered Paris to a clean and burned ... hi

            Quote: Octopus
            They, you see, were invaders, that's different.

            Quote: Octopus
            The Holy Union - an anti-people usurper bloc - in its struggle against the French people.

            you have double standards ... and this causes laughter ... bully
            Quote: Octopus
            we are talking about Germany since the 49th year

            It is about her - proclaimed under occupation! Ordinary puppets and still ...
            Quote: Octopus
            His activities with Novgorod, Vladimir and Kiev were purely conquistadors.

            I'm too lazy to argue with you - you have your own terminology, which speaks of low sanity ... hi
            Nevsky is just a prince, a medieval Russian prince, but smart ...
            1. Octopus 5 May 2020 18: 13 New
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              Quote: ser56
              the same Slashchev returned and not one ...

              Yes, there were many traitors, you are right.
              Quote: ser56
              see the Bolsheviks in 1937

              If you wanted to show how to face death, then you have chosen a damn unsuccessful example.
              Quote: ser56
              to your horizons ...

              It is a fact. National republics could and were able to defend their independence. Some for two years, some for twenty, someone (one) was completely lucky to get out. The rest restored their statehood with the collapse of the USSR.

              And the One and the Indivisible has never been and never will be. She was dead already in the 17th. The white movement was doomed, because a lie was made its cornerstone, and the old one was tired, bored, and did not deceive anyone for a second, unlike the lies of their opponents, fresh, original, easily adaptable to any circumstances.
              Quote: ser56
              and here I agree, there have always been a lot of fools in Russia

              This is true, but said inappropriately. Properties to choose from two evils new - in human nature.
              Quote: ser56
              nonsense! to be a satellite of Germany for you is good for Russia?

              Invite the German prince to the throne, who did not reach this throne, as did you know who, against Lenin-Trotsky-Sverdlov-Stalin? It’s hard for me to imagine the inner world of a person who thinks for at least a second.
              Quote: ser56
              Paulus was simply the first to realize this ...

              You, I see, equate rebellion against Hitler and speech on Soviet radio. I won’t do it, excuse me.
              Quote: ser56
              they weren’t alone, they were completely fattening under the occupation ...

              This is your Soviet understanding of occupation.
              Quote: ser56
              Alexander was a darling, I would have plundered Paris to a clean and burned ...

              What a military couch you are.

              Do not forget that the struggle with the French people was a sweet, but petty affair for Alexander. Basically, he fought, naturally, with the Russian people, with complete success.

              Quote: ser56
              you have double standards ... and this causes laughter ...

              Well, laugh if you call.

              And what do you see double standards? Did I speak out well somewhere about the Control Council and its members?

              Louis XVIII fought with the French on the side of the invaders who appointed him (although in fact he was shoved by Talleyrand, whom he expelled instantly), and Adenauer fought with the invaders on the side of the German people. Not everything worked out, he did not liberate the GDR, eastern voivodships and East Prussia, but otherwise his successes are phenomenal. These are not double standards, it’s like a story. Different people understand their duty differently.
              Quote: ser56
              proclaimed under occupation! Ordinary puppets and still ...

              Oh my God.
              Quote: ser56
              you have your own terminology, which speaks of low sanity ...

              It's not the same for everybody.
              Quote: ser56
              Nevsky is just a prince, a medieval Russian prince

              Nevsky, aka Kuritsyn, is a person who considers himself an actor. You are talking about Alexander Yaroslavich, nicknamed Nevsky in honor of the famous Neva battle with the Swedes, which was invented by chroniclers about 200 years later.

              You are right, the Russian princes of that time were quite worth each other. However, the specificity of the Novgorod Republic was that the prince was called there exclusively temporarily, on a professional, so to speak, basis for leading the military forces. Actually, the first questions to Alexander are connected with attempts to remain in Novgorod permanently, using the powers given to him for wartime.

              Quote: ser56
              but smart ...

              You're right. If SS gruppenfuhrer Andrei Grigoryevich Shkuro could achieve Hitler's adoption and appointment of himself Grand Prince of Kiev the Reichskommissar of Ukraine, he could be compared intellectually with Alexander Yaroslavich and his adoptive father Batu. But no, it does not hold out.
              1. ser56 5 May 2020 18: 58 New
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                Quote: Octopus
                If you need to face death, then you have chosen a damn bad example.

                not at all - people are born for life in the homeland, not bribery ... request
                Quote: Octopus
                National republics could and were able to defend their independence.

                fools are beaten individually ... called strategy ... request
                The same Poland was defeated in 39, and had no chance ...
                Quote: Octopus
                And the One and the Indivisible has never been and never will be.

                1) dream ... bully
                2) Empires possess objectiveness of subjectivity ....

                Quote: Octopus
                Properties to choose from two evils new - in human nature.

                I say - there are enough fools ... the new and the best are different categories ...
                Quote: Octopus
                It’s hard for me to imagine

                you have a false promise immediately on 2 points:
                1) the princes were their own - VK, and there was an experience of choosing the kingdom ...
                2) there was no such problem — it could have arisen if Denikin had taken Moscow ...
                Quote: Octopus
                This is your Soviet understanding of occupation.

                Seriously ? see Mosopan - Donut ... bully
                Quote: Octopus
                I look, equate rebellion against Hitler and speech on Soviet radio.

                I put the last one higher! Courage must be excellent for this!
                Quote: Octopus
                The rest restored their statehood with the collapse of the USSR.

                it's funny ... hi they have already surrendered part of it to the EU, etc., or they will lose when circumstances arise ... A pandemic accelerates processes ..
                Quote: Octopus
                What a military couch you are.

                are we familiar in reality? hi
                Quote: Octopus
                Basically, he fought naturally with the Russian people,

                what a ford ... the Russian people know well what happens without a king or a weak king ... request
                Quote: Octopus
                that struggle with the french people

                where does this people? the war was with the coalition of Europe under the command of Napoleon! A busted Paris was supposed to return the grandmother for the fire of Moscow and Smolensk, etc., well, for prevention ...

                Quote: Octopus
                Louis XVIII fought the French on the side of the invaders,

                Quote: Octopus
                Basically, he fought, naturally, with the Russian people, with complete success.

                you are funny ...
                Quote: Octopus
                and Adenauer fought with the invaders on the side of the German people

                it seems you live in Germany and work out ... I don’t see the point of arguing - I showed your 2 nd standards ...
                Quote: Octopus
                Russian princes of that time were quite worth each other.

                like the German ... it's feudalism ...
                Quote: Octopus
                then it could be compared in mind with Alexander Yaroslavich. But no, it does not hold out.

                1) I realized that your problem is the loss of the banal - patriotism ... not in propaganda, but simply in love for Russia request
                2) Your analogy is stupid for several reasons, because To transfer the realities of feudalism to the 20th century, one must be extremely careful - Prince Alexander was born a prince and ruled in his inheritance, he had the usual feudal powers and overlords! The latter wanted the usual - taxes and troops! Russia was part of the Horde. Hitler wanted to destroy Russia and the Russians as a nation!
                Okay, I do not see any reason to convince you - the flood has gone, if it is unbearable, write to the PM hi
                1. Octopus 6 May 2020 02: 14 New
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                  Quote: ser56
                  by no means

                  The question is why the old Bolsheviks, and even friends of the people from the relevant departments, who knew everything, understood everything, did everything themselves, waited for the arrest with a suitcase (doprovskoy basket), and not a sawn-off shotgun, wondered many times and usually led to discussions about the slave nature you yourself know what kind of people.
                  Quote: ser56
                  fools beat one by one

                  Everything has its pros and cons. If the White Cause won, there would be something to talk about.
                  Quote: ser56
                  The same Poland was defeated in 39, and had no chance ...

                  Alas, the state that was between Hitler Germany and Stalinist Russia had practically no outs.
                  However, Poland, I recall, was able to avoid (and save Western Belarus and Western Ukraine) the mass of interesting events of the Soviet regime, from (primarily) agricultural undertakings, to the struggle of Comrade. Yezhov, and even Comrade Beria with the Polish Army Organization, in which he personally participated, for example, comrade Rokossovsky. 20 years of (relatively) normal life is not so small, the entire board of the president there since 1999, for example.
                  Quote: ser56
                  dream

                  Oh well.
                  Quote: ser56
                  new and better are different categories ...

                  As it turned out, yes, but who knew.
                  Quote: ser56
                  Courage must be excellent for this!

                  To do what a fellow security officer asks for? Yeah.
                  Quote: ser56
                  they have already passed part of it to the EU

                  Pass statehood in the EU and pass it to Comrade. To Stalin - these are two big differences, you see.
                  Quote: ser56
                  are we familiar in reality?

                  Even if you scribble on the Internet from the trenches of New Russia, or where the battles for the Unified and Indivisible are going on right now, the desire to conquer the Napoleonic Wars, alas, sends you to this category.
                  By the way, a strange effect. For some reason, the desire to regain the WWII / WWII, which is much more common, does not produce such a comic effect. Strange, maybe the point is in my perception.
                  Quote: ser56
                  the Russian people know well what happens without a king or a weak king

                  Yes, yes, great. Here above already turned out to talk about the slave essence.
                  Quote: ser56
                  where does this people? the war was with the coalition of Europe under the command of Napoleon!

                  Since the Holy Union was a union of monarchs against peoples. As for interstate troubles, they did not really care about the sovereigns. War at that time was the norm.
                  Quote: ser56
                  you are funny ...

                  You, I see, have a funny mood. This is a good, quality product.
                  Quote: ser56
                  I showed your 2 standards ...

                  I have no double standards in this case.
                  Quote: ser56
                  like the German ... it's feudalism ...

                  I started with the word "condottier", this is Italy of the Middle Ages. However, in Italy in those years there were people who perceived Italy as one people who needed their own state. In Russia I do not know any such.
                  Quote: ser56
                  The latter wanted the usual - taxes and troops! Russia was part of the Horde

                  Yes Yes. The idea that Baty wanted the usual, and the behavior of Alexander Yaroslavich-Batych - the usual behavior for the Russian Orthodox holy warrior, is familiar to me.
                  Quote: ser56
                  but just love for Russia

                  I'm Russophobe, you see.
                  1. ser56 6 May 2020 17: 14 New
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                    Quote: Octopus
                    about the slavish nature you yourself know what kind of people.

                    Quote: Octopus
                    I'm Russophobe, you see.

                    yes you are even dumber than it seemed ... bully
                    it is especially amusing that you don’t even realize the measure of your complexes sitting on this site ... request
                    I will not chew - imagine yourself smart, it seems - guess for yourself ... repeat
                    Quote: Octopus
                    However, Poland, I recall, was able to avoid (and save Western Belarus and Western Ukraine) the mass of interesting events of the Soviet government,

                    but incited sedimentation - you think better?
                    Quote: Octopus
                    To do what a fellow security officer asks for? Yeah.

                    German generals in the camps did not live in poverty - those who did not want to, did not go into politics, so leave tales for yourself ... hi
                    Quote: Octopus
                    the desire to reconquer the Napoleonic wars, alas, sends you to this category.

                    you do not sew your nonsense to me! bully
                    Quote: Octopus
                    The desire to re-launch WWII / WWII

                    Do you have any complexes?
                    Quote: Octopus
                    ut above already turned on a conversation about the slave nature.

                    do you have a fad? happens with residents of former republics or emigrants ... bully

                    Quote: Octopus
                    The Holy Alliance was an alliance of monarchs against peoples.

                    what nonsense .... bully
                    1) The Union was created AFTER the Napoleonic Wars
                    2) Is there a difference with Yalta 1945? The rulers of the great powers rule the world .... and small states need to sit quietly a la Czech Republic in 1938 - to the question of Krasnov ... request
                    Quote: Octopus
                    In Russia I do not know any such.

                    1) these are your personal problems, from a poor knowledge of the history of Russia ... request I remind you - "where did the Russian land come from", and not Vladimirschina, Ryazanschina, etc .... hi
                    2) in Italy they are still divided, I have been there many times, as, incidentally, in Germany ...

                    Quote: Octopus
                    The idea that Baty wanted the usual, and the behavior of Alexander Yaroslavich-Batych - the usual behavior for the Russian Orthodox holy warrior, I know

                    I understand that demagogy is your method? in response to the specifics, go to the estimates? laughing
  • Gato 4 May 2020 23: 41 New
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    Even Tsar Nikolai II wrote about the ataman Krasnov in his diary.

    He also wrote about Rasputin. He, too, put monuments or vodka of the same name enough?
  • sleeve 5 May 2020 03: 55 New
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    All right. The enemy and the traitor are two big differences, with the same end.
  • DNS-a42 5 May 2020 07: 49 New
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    In a state where there is no ideology at all, everything is possible.

    The lack of ideology is only declared, but it can be clearly traced - this is the propaganda of capitalist values, the White Guard and anti-Sovietism.
  • Tugarin 5 May 2020 11: 05 New
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    Enemies do not sleep angry
  • Alex013 5 May 2020 13: 40 New
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    "Tomorrow we will erect a monument to the enemy, albeit a former compatriot ..."

    and in the village of Elanskaya demolished a monument to Krasnov interesting?
  • Dear Roman! I read your article to the conclusion:
    “Do you see a traitor here? Personally, I don’t see. Ataman Krasnov didn’t betray anything to earn the title of traitor. It was an enemy. Yes, he speaks the same language with our ancestors, one, let's say, of blood affiliation, but an enemy. "He didn’t swear allegiance to our country, he hated it fiercely, he fought with it to the last. And - a loser.
    Roman, did you yourself understand what you wrote ???
    General Krasnov was the most natural traitor !!! General Krasnov betrayed the motherland and it is extremely regrettable to me that you do not understand this !!!
    Bolsheviks, Liberals, New Russians, Gorbachevs, Sovereign Emperors - all this is a product of our Motherland. But Hitler is a completely different matter, Hitler is a conqueror of a foreigner.
    Krasnov hated the Bolsheviks-this is his right !!! He was ready to personally shoot every Bolshevik — and he had the right to do the same — he fought with the Bolsheviks!
    However, to swear allegiance to a foreign conqueror and go to war with his people, this is treason. Betrayal of their own homeland !!!
    ... or am I wrong?
    1. Alexander Naydenov 8 May 2020 15: 07 New
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      you are an ordinary ok, therefore you do not see a traitor and Russophobe in Krasnov.
  • Brigadier 5 May 2020 18: 51 New
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    Arrived! They are trying to justify those who are head over heels in the blood of our people.
    Although, it’s clear why this “someone” wants to do ...
    After all, these “heroes” fought against the Soviet regime, and who is in power in Russia today? CAPITALISTS!
    That is, those for whom all these Krasnov, Denikins, Kolchaks, and skin fought many years ago ...
    And today it’s these CAPITALISTS and they want to make our people consider these black jackals with bloody faces to be considered holy angels with white wings!
    And the main word here is CAPITALISTS !

    Who owns production in Russia today?
    Who is in the Duma today?
    Who is in the government today?
    Who is the President of the Russian Federation - Putin?

    This is it ...
    1. Alexander Naydenov 8 May 2020 15: 05 New
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      Putin is out of place here. he is doing even more for the country than Stalin, this can be seen if you look a little further than his nose and his refrigerator.
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