Viking Center in York: Sound, Color, and Smell!

Viking Center in York: Sound, Color, and Smell!
Entrance to the Viking Center in York


I sold the cloak clasp that Icelanders sent me and bought herrings; I also exchanged my arrows for herrings due to crop failure.
Vis Eyvind. M.I. Steblin-Kamensky. Proceedings in Philology. St. Petersburg: Publishing House of St. Petersburg State University, 2003


Museums of the world. It so happened that back in 1976, the Archaeological Trust of the British city of York, headed by director Peter Ediman, began excavating a small part of the ancient city, the territory of which was previously cleared for reconstruction. It took five years to carry out these excavations - the most thorough of all that have ever been carried out in the city. As a result, valuable discoveries were discovered, the age of which was a thousand or more years, on the basis of which one of the most interesting museums of Great Britain, the Viking Center “Yorvik” was later created.


And whom only we will not meet in this center! Here is an Arab merchant with a bag of dirhams

The Vikings called York City the current city of York. The Viking Center is built under its modern shopping center. The museum recreates a vivid picture of York X century. The central part of the museum is a life-size reconstruction of the streets of the ancient city with five houses under thatched roofs.


The blacksmith and his son

This quarter was, however, only a small part of the thriving ancient Viking city. Then York was the second largest British city after London, a center of agriculture and a river port, from which trade was carried out with the most remote possessions of the Vikings: from Scandinavia to the Bosphorus. Among the discovered finds are Arab coins, silk, apparently made in Byzantium, a shell from the Middle East. During the excavation, stamps were also found for minting coins, which suggests that in York there was a mint of its own. All the exhibits found during the excavations were subjected to the most thorough analysis, so that the employees of the Archaeological Trust can explain everything, even the smallest details of the Viking street they recreated.


Part of the excavation has been preserved and covered with a glass floor! You walk on it and look ...

Visitors to the exhibition pass through it on ... special cars that move on magnetic tape. They trace recreated history York backwards: from the 1066th century to the Norman conquest of XNUMX, and then to the Viking era. Unfortunately, this trip is not accessible to everyone today, but let's visit this museum, so to speak, virtually, imagining everything that it can show us ...


Fisherman and fisherman

And here we are in the museum. Time seemed to stop, and not just stopped, but stopped on a very specific date. This is October 28, 948, and we are located on Coppergate Street - the street of coopers and cup manufacturers. Let's stop for a minute and watch what is happening in this street market by the end of the day. Here's a bone carver, Torfastur, trying to sell the remaining combs and buckles from deer horns. Here is the apprentice turner in wood, Lodin, heading to his machine - this tool is skillfully restored on the basis of archaeological finds and is an exact copy of the machine on which the ancient craftsmen who gave the name Coppergate Street worked. Here is a tanning shop: in it, the old, obese Blafotre (which means the Blue Foot) can not find shoes that would fit his disfigured gout legs. Although we do know that on Coppergate Street shoes and boots of various styles were made. Yes, apparently, he was a little stingy on new things ...

All these people came to life thanks to the skill of the sculptor Graham Ibbsen, who managed to take a snapshot of all these inhabitants of the ancient city, frozen by his efforts in movement. Here is a counter with metal products, and next to it stands the court king, nicknamed the Blood Ax - the famous Norwegian nobleman Arinbjorn. In general, everything is very, very natural here, everything and everything is moving, even a rat eating a piece of fish looks like it is alive!


Viking hunter, a resident of Yorvika

The time of the busiest trading is over, but still on the street it is still noisy: we hear voices that are heard from all sides. This is done with the help of a sophisticated sound device with 64 audio tracks. Therefore, we can hear the authentic sounds of an ancient Viking street: neighbors gossip, children play, artisans sing at work, old people tell stories. For six months, University of Nottingham professor Christine Fell taught a group of children and adults in a North Yorkshire village the Viking language - Old Norse. A group of specialists even traveled to Iceland and made a number of sound recordings there, because the Icelandic language of all modern Scandinavian languages ​​is closest to Old Norse.


He is with a dog!

Now we move on to the embankment of the Foss River. On both its banks are houses, workshops, warehouses and courtyards. Some buildings are half-rooted in the ground: some are built of oak logs and planks, others, older ones, are made of twigs and coated with clay. There are one-story houses, there are houses with attics and even two-story ones.


Tanner

This is a very lively place: turners grind a tree, jewelers make brooches, rings and pendants from jet and amber, women spin, weave, dye fabrics. In the distance, the manufacturer of coins mint a bargaining chip.

Here we turn off our route and go into one of the houses. Here, life is concentrated around the hearth: people eat, sleep, cook, play, work at the loom around it. The walls are made of rods, but it’s very cozy inside, although sometimes it’s a bit cramped ... If you go out into the back yard, all sorts of smells strike your nose. If you sniff, you can count up to 12 different smells that are specially created by the company, which usually produces means for their destruction. It smells of moldy apples, rotten fish and something worse. Smells actually come from tablets placed in special vessels; the tablets are heated all the time and changed daily. Here are the pigs digging in the corral, nearby - pits with garbage and another pit replacing the restroom.


Weaver

And now we are already at the river. A Norwegian cargo ship was pulled ashore. His team unloads rolls of leather, fur, barrels of herring and takes it all to warehouses. The port of Jorvika is a transshipment point of trade in the North Sea Basin; products from all cities of Northern Europe are brought here.


The slaver is a very honorable occupation at that time!

The smaller boat is a copy of the ancient Viking four-row boat, the fairing, which was made at the National Museum of Navigation in Greenwich. A large cargo ship is a copy of one of the five Viking ships found at the bottom of the Roskild Fjord in Denmark. It was equipped under the guidance of a recognized authority in the field of Viking shipbuilding and navigation, Dr. Alan Binza from Gull University. The sails of the ships were sewn from linen and strengthened with jute and leather - for the museum they were made by Alf Redman, a specialist in the manufacture of sails from the city of Whitby in north Yorkshire.


Priest. Well, where without him! Offers the dying

On the deck of the ship, sailors repair the nets that were brought here from the Gambia, no matter how hard it is to believe. The organizer of the museum, Phoebe Mac-Leod, searched the whole of England in search of natural fiber networks and only thanks to the television program about the Gambia did she manage to find exactly what she needed.


Narrator. He was also a very respected Viking man, without him a feast is not a feast!

Sailors always tell stories, and guys always love to listen to them. Here is a little boy, his mouth agape, listening to the stories of his father and grandfather. The boy’s name is Toki, this name was chosen for him by the Yorkshire guys who took part in a special contest: “What was the boy’s name?”

And now it's time to turn the time machine again: ancient Yorvik goes to bed, and you and I are transported to 1979, to the excavation site that went here from 1976 to 1981. Here, at a level of six meters below the surface, we see a picture of archaeological excavations even before the Norwegian Viking Center was created in their place.


So at that time they made money. Whoever wanted as much as he did!

We see how, using special steel shields, the walls of the excavations were strengthened, as well as a small cabin in which archaeologists and workers drank tea during the break. We see the excavated remains of sheds, houses and workshops exactly in the form in which they appeared before the eyes of archaeologists after a thousand-year burial underground. Based on this irrefutable evidence, York archaeologists have recreated the ancient Coppergate Street as it was in the Viking Age.


Just a frying pan

The planks and logs found during the excavation were for several months in a solution of polyethylene glycol and wax - thus they were able to be stored and put back into the places from which they were excavated. In Jorvik, in this way we can see the best Viking-era wooden structures in Europe.


“A place for relief”

From the excavation site we will head to the room where individual finds are stored. The room is a basement of a candy factory that was once located on Coppergate Street. During the excavations, more than 35 thousand finds were discovered - all of them had to be washed, dried, marked, packed and sent for research and identification - everything from coins and jewelry to fleas, beetles and their eggs. And all this can be seen here ...

However, our time travel ended there. We managed to see the real past, recreated with the help of a beautiful illusion, the excavations themselves and all the painstaking work associated with them, and as a result, an amazing reconstruction of the long-buried past, which was discovered with the help of a shovel of archaeologists.

PS The author and the administration of the site "Military Review" thank the Directorate of the Center for the opportunity to use its photo materials.
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  1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 5 May 2020 05: 52 New
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    I have no words!!! Gorgeous, already envy took maleho !!!
    Vyacheslav Olegovich thanks for the tour, good afternoon comrades !!!
    1. Catfish 5 May 2020 06: 24 New
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      I join Vladislav! smile I especially liked about the money:
      So at that time they made money. Whoever wanted as much as he did!
      good Eh ...
      1. Phil77 5 May 2020 08: 52 New
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        Quote: Sea Cat
        I join Vladislav! I especially liked about the money:

        Friends, I'm with you !!!!
        Good morning everyone!
        Vyacheslav Olegovich liked your virtual tour!
        1. rich 5 May 2020 16: 28 New
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          A memorable tour for any age. I think that both adults and children will like it. You ride in a little trolley and look at the reconstituted Viking village. The cost of pleasure is 10.25 £. It is interesting to see, but the price is a bit overpriced for such a short and not very informative trip.
      2. knn54 5 May 2020 09: 24 New
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        The money was made of metal, in this case silver and gold. These are not debt notes with portraits of the presidents.
        Vyacheslav Olegovich. Pluser. It is SUCH Centers that Russia needs, and not Yeltsin Centers.
        Waiting for the next excursion.
        1. kalibr 5 May 2020 09: 49 New
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          Quote: knn54
          Waiting for the next excursion.

          Getting ready!
        2. AllBiBek 5 May 2020 14: 16 New
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          So there are more and more ethno-villages every year, and, as far as I can tell, they are opening in most regions.
    2. kalibr 5 May 2020 06: 39 New
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      Glad you liked it. Soon, that's the only way we will travel ...
      1. Zmeelov 5 May 2020 13: 06 New
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        Quote: kalibr
        Glad you liked it. Soon, that's the only way we will travel ...

        God forbid with your political views, we will "get some rest" before the collapse of Russia! Sorry and write a complaint .. wink
        1. Catfish 5 May 2020 22: 47 New
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          And where does the political views of the author? "In the garden of elderberry, but in Kiev, uncle?" You still can’t calm down? Drink bromine and watch TV.
          1. Trilobite Master 5 May 2020 23: 24 New
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            Quote: Sea Cat
            "In the garden of elderberry, but in Kiev, uncle?"

            A person’s task is to insert a line about Putin in a negative sense in any topic. You can envy him - we are sitting for free, and he makes money on quarantine.
            Damn, when will the “official science” start paying my salary? I’ve broken so many copies about the armor of pseudoscientific ignorance, the Academy of Sciences could have thrown a ruble from each member on my cognac on Fridays ... laughing
            1. Catfish 6 May 2020 00: 09 New
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              Michael, good night. smile
              ... from each member

              You do not mind people, there and so with potency, not everything is normal, but here with each member ... laughing
              And about the armor, spears will not work here, you need a tool more efficiently, otherwise you won’t get through. drinks
            2. Astra wild 6 May 2020 07: 05 New
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              Michael "Trilobite", and you are a gourmet: "cognac on Fridays."
              -Our people don’t go to the bakery by taxi.
              I don’t have an extra scar, but + I promise
  2. Vadim Golubkov 5 May 2020 07: 07 New
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    Great! Thank you!
    1. rich 5 May 2020 16: 10 New
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      Viking Center in York
      I recommend to see. Really curious.
      Vidio from Russian tourists.
      1. sniperino 5 May 2020 16: 33 New
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        Quote: Rich
        Viking Center in York
        You won’t surprise us with this ... There are centers
        And in them you can not stare at mechanical dolls, but at living work,

        chat with people <went further, singing>
        English wise man to help work,
        Invented the car behind the machine.
        And our Russian man, since he’s unable to work,
        So tighten his native club.
        1. Catfish 5 May 2020 22: 54 New
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          "Hey, cudgel, let’s get out!" am
          And it didn’t occur to you that besides clubs, people may be interested in many other things that civilization is rich in. By the way, if you weren’t a "wise Englishman," you would still walk in your bast shoes and wave your club at your pleasure. Dubye doesn’t roll against the machine gun in any way, but his own and original patriotic! laughing
          1. sniperino 6 May 2020 08: 14 New
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            Quote: Sea Cat
            And it didn’t occur to you that besides clubs, people may be interested in many other things that civilization is rich in.
            Cho really ?! belay
            1. Catfish 6 May 2020 09: 00 New
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              Cho really ?!

              True - true, take a word, or read books, do you know tea and tea?
  3. Borz 5 May 2020 07: 33 New
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    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich! I read your article with enthusiasm. Very interesting and informative. Great photo.
    1. rich 5 May 2020 16: 13 New
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      I am joining. Thank you, Vyacheslav! good
  4. Fishery 5 May 2020 08: 49 New
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    cool) about the money though there are some doubts, but this is apparently from the category of barbaric imitations) and so really cool.
  5. 3x3zsave 5 May 2020 09: 03 New
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    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
    UPDATE.
    According to legend, in 948 in York, Egil Skallagrimsson composed the famous hanging "Redemption of the head."
    1. Krasnodar 5 May 2020 11: 18 New
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      Redemption of the head is cool)),
      1. 3x3zsave 5 May 2020 11: 46 New
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        Moreover, on its own.
        1. Krasnodar 5 May 2020 12: 52 New
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          brustu broddar,
          en bitu oddar,
          báru hörvar
          af bogum örvar.
          Buoy virgin again
          ready to continue the fight.
          Horseshoes ring
          sea ​​horse.
          Steel tips
          greedily
          flew from the strings
          hawks to the goal.
          -----
          Impressive)).
      2. Hantengri 5 May 2020 11: 55 New
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        Quote: Krasnodar
        Redemption of the head is cool)),

        It’s just that Eirik was not in vain called the Blood Ax, and Egil really wanted to live ... I had to "lick".
        1. Krasnodar 5 May 2020 12: 56 New
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          Play in burim
          broddar
          oddar
          hörvar
          örvar
          1. Astra wild 5 May 2020 15: 10 New
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            horvar-hogvard, remember rowing "gary potter"
            1. Krasnodar 5 May 2020 17: 51 New
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              I don’t remember - to be honest, I don’t get carried away with Potter at all)).
        2. 3x3zsave 5 May 2020 18: 43 New
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          I had to ... Although each other was worth it. Egil killed for the first time at the age of seven.
          1. Hantengri 5 May 2020 18: 49 New
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            Quote: 3x3zsave
            Egil killed for the first time at the age of seven.

            Yes, really ... Not bad, so, they drove the ball, mentally! lol And at 9 he, in my opinion, killed his father’s slave because his father killed his friend (Egil) and wanted to kill him.
            1. 3x3zsave 5 May 2020 18: 53 New
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              Oh, this Icelandic football !!! laughing
            2. 3x3zsave 5 May 2020 19: 04 New
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              This is a different version. Type: "On that day, Piglet finally decided to run away from home and become a sailor" (C) laughing
  6. Edward Vashchenko 5 May 2020 10: 19 New
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    Vyacheslav Olegovich! Thanks for the tour, eh, everyone didn’t get to the “glorious city”.
  7. Alex013 5 May 2020 10: 34 New
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    I read the article - and how I ended up in the time machine.

    Thank you very much, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
  8. Undecim 5 May 2020 11: 34 New
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    Visitors to the exhibition pass through it on ... special cars that move on magnetic tape.

    In total, as a result of excavations, 250 ceramic products, 000 tons of animal bones and 5 other items were recovered.
    1. Undecim 5 May 2020 11: 38 New
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      This is how the excavations look.
    2. vladcub 5 May 2020 12: 31 New
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      V.N.Thank you for not being too lazy to add illustrations
    3. AllBiBek 5 May 2020 14: 21 New
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      Somehow a little, to be honest. Even for one specific layer.

      And - a ceramic product and a fragment of ceramics - it's still different. Even if you consider as such only solid bottoms, corollas, handle-covers, and only ornamented sidewalls the size of half a palm.

      And so, it begs that they opened from half a hectare to a hectare in total
      1. Undecim 5 May 2020 14: 36 New
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        The excavation area is 1000 square meters or 0,1 ha.
        1. AllBiBek 5 May 2020 15: 05 New
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          So lucky to get stuck in a large garbage bin, which suggests itself based on the number of bones.

          Well, how lucky? So-so luck, to be honest. Usually this is a shapeless pit of incomprehensible depth, and what’s more than full, but there really is little valuable, burial places in this regard are much more interesting. But it's all sorting out, washing, sorting, counting and counting ...

          Usually, at all times, when the garbage was getting really big, they stupidly dug an even bigger hole nearby, dropped as much as they could, and scooped up soil scattered around. So the chronology of objects is so well shot down, and the false mainland is the norm, and not one.

          So respect, that on the basis of this pulled all this is remakeable and in this form, really a lot of work.
  9. vladcub 5 May 2020 12: 29 New
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    Vyacheslav Olegovich, I’m not an impressionable young lady, but a bastard. Your excursion in me has aroused envy. Of the harmful remark: “from AGATE (jet does not exist) and amber”
    1. Undecim 5 May 2020 12: 37 New
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      Out of mischief remark: "from AGATE (jet does not exist)
      Not out of harm. The jet exists. This is a sedimentary rock that can be easily processed and polished by ornamental stone. Also known under the names black amber, black jasper or gisher.
      In the Brockhaus Encyclopedia, an article about the jet was written by D.I. Mendeleev.

      It looks like in jewelry.
      1. vladcub 5 May 2020 13: 06 New
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        B. Thank you for enlightening us. Honestly, I thought that V. O accidentally made a reservation
      2. Astra wild 5 May 2020 15: 05 New
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        Oh, if someone gave me such a decoration
    2. AllBiBek 5 May 2020 14: 24 New
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      By the way, the largest jet of the known ones at that time in Europe - just around York. They there, including because of this, banged away a large craft center, this pebble was valued approximately as an amethyst among the Romans. And for the same reasons, it protects against poisoning.
  10. BAI
    BAI 5 May 2020 12: 55 New
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    Viking hunter, a resident of Jorvik. He is with a dog!

    Weak Vikings against modern Rus, the nation-forming people.
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. Krasnodar 5 May 2020 13: 54 New
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        Duc of Rurik is also - that ... Vikings .. and the princes were also one of them ... in my opinion.
        1. AllBiBek 5 May 2020 15: 08 New
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          Still, Vikings and Varangians are a little different, it’s about the same as the Baltic Fleet and the Caspian Flotilla.
          1. Krasnodar 5 May 2020 15: 44 New
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            I read that the Varangians in general - the estate ..))
            Let's put it another way - Ruriks and princes were Scandinavians from the Vikings.
            1. AllBiBek 5 May 2020 15: 50 New
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              At one time, it was more likely a seasonal phenomenon characteristic of many social strata of a number of tribal groups.

              Although, in part, you are right to drag yourself into new lands to farm there - this is the handwriting of the Norwegians and - especially - the Danes, but the Swedes are more ... Well, let’s say this: they "defrauded" on the ground, acting either as a roof or torpedoes (in terminology of our 90s).
              1. Krasnodar 5 May 2020 15: 52 New
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                the Vikings came there to protect and, accordingly, to rule. From there, the first ruling dynasties of Russians
                1. AllBiBek 5 May 2020 16: 50 New
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                  They were ready to come anywhere to live worthy by the standards of their fjord.

                  Here, kmk, an important point is that they came a) without their women b) with arms, and the ability to handle it.

                  As for me, well done, even then they realized that one needs to go in search of a better life a) by the crowd b) without women (there will always be new ones anywhere) c) knowing how to not only plow and remove manure, but also to swing the ax with to the enemy, better - the crowd.
                  1. Krasnodar 5 May 2020 17: 43 New
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                    This is all right. So they became the ruling dynasty of Russians.
        2. 3x3zsave 5 May 2020 20: 21 New
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          also - that ... Vikings
          And on the ensign of Rurik - the Khazar tamga !!! laughing
    2. Golovan Jack 5 May 2020 13: 38 New
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      Soslepu did not immediately understand what this guy is holding on to and what he wants to do with the wedmede repeat

      But also as it is - also not bad good
    3. sniperino 5 May 2020 16: 55 New
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      Quote: BAI
      Weakheads Vikings against modern Rusich
      To be honest, this Rusich could easily pass for an Azerbaijani ... And the signature "where is the bear’s meat on the market"
  11. Astra wild 5 May 2020 15: 02 New
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    Quote: Sea Cat
    I join Vladislav! smile I especially liked about the money:
    So at that time they made money. Whoever wanted as much as he did!
    good Eh ...

    In fairness, Vyacheslav Olegovich, a small addition (all dissatisfaction with Vladkub, envy is contagious) "whoever wanted it, he did as much" of his silver or copper. Otherwise, it turns out that the Vikings lived under communism: take breech silver and mint money for yourself. It was necessary to clarify this point
    1. AllBiBek 5 May 2020 17: 17 New
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      Uh ... Not Vechiachlav Olegovich, but I’ll clarify a little.

      They there, in Scandinavia, have their own specifics of raw materials.

      They couldn’t but hang in the Mesolithic (and you won’t make another ax from local raw materials), they couldn’t develop in Bronze (it’s bad with copper and possible components at the level of their technology of that time), and they couldn’t help shooting Iron. On their raw materials (and there is a swamp under the swamp), and on its quality (and there are generous swamps) in technology, again, of their time and region.

      There is no silver there. Basically. Therefore, they dragged him as much as they could (and from where they could - all the more vigorously he was not appreciated there).

      Gold - they respected, as much as three times as much silver. But they valued a lot more, so a lot of kg of silver - shitty by our standards, there ligatures 2/3 - were dragged to the homeland by all means.

      For such a cultural paradigm.

      As soon as they became Christians - for what years it came to naught, in general. For - why in the afterlife that they believed in?

      Something like that.
      1. Astra wild 6 May 2020 16: 26 New
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        AlliBiBek colleague, if there is no silver there, from what did they mint coins for themselves, after all, not from ordinary metal? And gold at that time was in large, large deficit.
        1. AllBiBek 6 May 2020 16: 33 New
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          Yes, like the whole of Europe at that time, mostly dirhams melted. Silver mines in Saxony and Bohemia were not yet discovered, and the Spanish were still raked by the Romans.

          Apart from this, only Kievan Rus', in it the raw materials of the coin, are Frankish coins, they were bought by weight. And, strangely, they cleaned them of ligature, in them two-thirds of them somewhere.
    2. sniperino 5 May 2020 17: 44 New
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      Quote: Astra wild
      Otherwise, it turns out that the Vikings lived under communism: take breech silver and mint money for yourself.
      I can’t live under communism and take the treasury, because the state no longer exists.
      1. sniperino 6 May 2020 08: 20 New
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        Quote: sniperino
        the state is no more
        The minors are unaware, it is likely that according to Marxism the state will die together with the disappearance of classes, because it arose in close connection with the division of society into classes. There is communism - there are no classes, there is no state. You can put your emotional disadvantages into yourself in any suitable place for this.
  12. Trilobite Master 5 May 2020 15: 23 New
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    Hello everyone, colleagues.
    We cannot build such a thing. Rodnovers fly in, led by the next operator, and break everything. But they won’t break it - they will whine, so that they’ll block their ears.
    The picture will be in oil: a prince with a squad in Scandinavian outfits with Scandinavian weapons, a Scandinavian merchant is trading with an Arab merchant, and a poorly dressed Finn offers a bunch of squirrels nearby. There are no Slavs - everyone in the field works, well, maybe a couple came to sell fresh fish or exchange anything ...
    We, the proud heirs of the Russo-Aryans, cannot do this to ourselves. And nevermind that the Scandinavians and Finns, like the Slavs, are our direct ancestors.
    1. sniperino 5 May 2020 17: 50 New
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      Quote: Trilobite Master
      a prince with a squad in Scandinavian outfits with Scandinavian weapons, a Scandinavian merchant is trading with an Arab merchant, and a poorly dressed Finn offers a bunch of squirrels nearby. There are no Slavs - everyone in the field works
      Oil painting ... It is not clear why the Russian language has so few Germanisms, and it is closer in composition to the Indo-European than German and all Scandinavian.
      1. Trilobite Master 5 May 2020 23: 16 New
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        Quote: sniperino
        closer in composition to the Indo-European,

        This has yet to be proved. Actually also far away. But the closest is Lithuanian. Just for five centuries, or even more, Lithuania, according to the figurative expression "The Tale of the Perdition of the Russian Land" "did not come out of the swamps", and so it retained the original language in a more pristine state. This can not be said about Russia, therefore, our language is more different from the common ancestral language.
        And by the way, if your thesis about "closer in composition" were true, this would mean only one thing - the speakers of this language have been isolated for a long time and, therefore, lagged behind in development.
        The question is different. Why are the British not embarrassed to talk about their past, proud of it and even manage to make money on it? And we, even though our situation is much less dramatic - no one conquered us, unlike them - we are embarrassed and try to disown him by any means? What if your ancestor personally was just the same Scandinavian Rus that came with Rurik to Ladoga and built the Russian state with him, himself and in his descendants? Or was he among those whom the annals call “all” and “miracle” that made the decision on “calling the Vikings” on the council along with Slovenes and Krivichs? And so you are now decisively disowning them ...
        And the answer to this question - “why” - is simple as ... I don’t know how something is very simple and primitive, for example, the thinking of a typical ordinary dolboslav. And it consists in the fact that the British learned to respect themselves, they do not consider themselves worse than someone and are not shy, not ashamed of their ancestors, their history. In this sense, we have something to learn from them. Don't you think so?
        1. kalibr 6 May 2020 06: 35 New
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          Quote: Trilobite Master
          In this sense, we have something to learn from them. Don't you think so?

          +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
        2. sniperino 6 May 2020 07: 52 New
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          Quote: Trilobite Master
          This has yet to be proved. Actually also far away. But the closest is Lithuanian.
          This was proved long ago by the French Slavic Mayo, highlighting with the help of comparative linguistics 3 languages ​​that are closest in composition to the pre-Indo-European reconstructed by philologists: Russian, Lithuanian and Sanskrit.
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          The question is different.
          This question is not for me. But I can assume that since the mid-80s this topic has been intentionally peddled, and for greater suggestibility of the population, the Kashpirovsky-Chumak project was launched in parallel.
          1. sniperino 6 May 2020 11: 51 New
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            Quote: sniperino
            But the closest is Lithuanian.
            How does he differ from Russian? Polonisms? So polish away. Romanesque more ... Europeans came to their place of residence because of the Carpathians, from the East.
        3. sniperino 6 May 2020 08: 40 New
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          Quote: Trilobite Master
          the English learned to respect themselves
          Also controversial thesis. The British, if we take not everyone individually (there will be options), but as an ethnographic phenomenon, “a little Nazis”, i.e. they cannot respect themselves without belittling other nations, which perhaps they see as "the burden of a white man." If you have "learned", then I would like to not stop there.
        4. sniperino 6 May 2020 10: 03 New
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          Quote: Trilobite Master
          this would mean only one thing - the speakers of this language were isolated for a long time and, therefore, lagged behind the rest in development
          No, not only. This may mean that the Russians and Lithuanians are autochthonous ethnic groups that previously had a common language and history, and Sanskrit is the changes that have arisen in their (Proto-Slavic) language due to the migration of part of its speakers "from Scythia to India" in the 3rd millennium before P .X.
        5. sniperino 6 May 2020 11: 04 New
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          Quote: Trilobite Master
          nobody conquered us
          And about Germanism. Why did the German-speaking nobility begin to study the language of the Slavs so thoroughly poking around somewhere in the field, and did not leave them as many Germanisms in the Russian and Lithuanian languages ​​as there are, for example, Turkisms. Princely power is much closer and more influential than infrequent relations with the Basques. Where are germanisms?
          1. Trilobite Master 6 May 2020 12: 50 New
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            I am not a specialist in linguistics, I know and understand only some basic principles of this science, but I am sure of this knowledge. However, I am afraid that what you wrote contradicts it, which means it does not inspire confidence.
            Polish, Czech, Serbo-Croatian languages ​​are much closer to Russian than Lithuanian, if only because they are Slavic, and Lithuanian belongs to a group of Baltic languages ​​that stood out from the common European language at the same time as the Proto-Slavic at the turn of the new era. The division of the Pre-Slavic into modern Slavic languages ​​occurred much later, so they are closer to each other.
            I don’t want to argue on this topic - the topic of linguistics.
            I will only note once again that the British, in my opinion, treat their history much more carefully and wisely, despite the fact that it is no less dramatic and ambiguous for us than for us and it also abounds in us, both light and dark stained. And in our country, as from the time of Lomonosov, this complex of our own historical inferiority was born, so it still cannot be eliminated.
            1. sniperino 6 May 2020 13: 08 New
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              Quote: Trilobite Master
              However, I'm afraid that what you wrote contradicts them
              Do you base anxiety
              How does he differ from Russian? Polonisms? So polish away.
              I agree, I printed too much, because I was not a philologist and I missed the Baltic languages, and Mayo called the Frenchman ... Memory aberrations + sporadic blackouts. This does not change the essence of the matter: 3 languages ​​(Russian, Lithuanian and Sanskrit).
              1. AllBiBek 6 May 2020 16: 52 New
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                1. Mayo is not a linguist, he is a Slavic philologist with a specialization, by the way, in the Belarusian language.
                2. Sanskrit is not a spoken language and has never been, it is a ritual language.
                3. Sanskrit - 4 pieces, and they are very different.
                4. “Proto-Indo-European languages” being reconstructed by linguists - even more, only in Russia two groups are working on this, and they have slightly different languages. In Europe, there are six more only at large universities, and to some extent, private enthusiasts. Variants of the "source language" there, of course, are very different.

                Mayo - as a philologist - worked with living language as of his time, he did not work with ancient versions of living everyday language, not his profile. With literary ones, yes, but there is also its own specifics.

                In general, try reading Sanskrit texts, and there is at least something to understand, there are options in Latin and Cyrillic on the net. You can even listen to how any Vedic hymn sounds live, of this good in the net, also in bulk.

                Both there and there - you will not understand a word either through reading or through listening.
                1. sniperino 7 May 2020 13: 40 New
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                  Quote: AllBiBek
                  Mayo is not a linguist, he is a Slavic philologist with a specialization, by the way, in the Belarusian language.
                  “By the way” is “why is he with Russian and Lithuanian closest to Sanskrit”? Treat it like a prof. competence, unless proven otherwise, or how its bias ...
            2. AllBiBek 6 May 2020 17: 13 New
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              By the way, no, they really, really do not like to remember their defeats and military failures.

              And as for the proto-language - any - for the time of its existence, he was in fact a bundle of rural dialects, and they are not so good from tribe to tribe, there in two neighboring villages it is not a fact that they understand what the neighbors are talking about.

              And for that matter, the closest to the Indo-European is generally Hittite, although its phonetics has not been reliably established.
              1. Trilobite Master 6 May 2020 18: 10 New
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                Quote: AllBiBek
                they really, really don't like to remember their defeats and military failures.

                Not to like to remember (who likes to remember such things?) And to try to distort in their “favor” - things are different. Unfortunately, we have such garbage, and we are fighting with it. smile
                Although, personally, I absolutely do not understand the humiliating nature of recognizing Russia as a multinational state even at the very first stages of its formation. Well, and the ethnicity of the founder of the dynasty is, in my opinion, generally a second-third order issue.
                1. sniperino 7 May 2020 15: 14 New
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                  Quote: Trilobite Master
                  recognize Russia as a multinational state at the very first stages of its formation
                  And I am almost sure of this, otherwise I will not understand our future history. But it is not possible to put together very, very tolerant Scandinavian proto-feudal warriors with Slavs-slaves in the mind, given that the Scandinavian cult formed this very warrior, was the basis of his identity and understanding of the world. “You can’t just take it” and forget Odin, score on Asgard and Valhalla and finally tie up a belene broth, so what? .. To hire a interpreter, to study yet not great and mighty, to praise other gods on him who do not help Slavs, but brought them to the pen ... Some naive and at the same time cynical-tolerant crisis managers instead of the Vikings. Rurikovich did not speak their native language, and the Romanovs began to master and promote the bilingualism of the elite. There is some mystery here ...
                  1. Trilobite Master 7 May 2020 16: 13 New
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                    Quote: sniperino
                    forget Odin, score on Asgard and Valhalla

                    Thoughts of a modern man brought up in a monotheistic religious tradition with numerous examples of martyrdom and self-sacrifice for religious ideals.
                    For the Scandinavians, and for any pagans it was all easier. God in order to help. There are many gods, they live in clans, these clans are approximately equivalent and each clan has its own territory. It’s we who are used to the fact that God is “omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent” among the Gentiles. Some gods are stronger here, others are stronger. Ask for help and advice from those gods who can really help. Thor and Odin are far away, and Perun or Veles - here they are, nearby. Even the images on the mountain stand.
                    In a saga it is clearly written about this - the leader says so: we will return home - we will pray to our gods, and while we are here, we need to contact the locals, they have the strength here.
                    Quote: sniperino
                    Scandinavian proto-feudal warriors with Slavs-slaves

                    It’s you who write, not me, you yourself invented it yourself. Or it was suggested by some enemy provocateur who either is not familiar with history or is knowingly lying, such creatures also occur, unfortunately.
                    To criticize a story, you need to first study it. You will not find passages like yours in any professional historian.
                    There was a Slavic and Finno-Ugric aristocracy of landowners, "proto feudal lords", and there was a Scandinavian retinue aristocracy. Their peaceful (mainly), natural merger with the undoubted advantage of the local component gave rise to the feudal class, forming Russia first as an estate, and later Russia as a state.
                    1. sniperino 7 May 2020 17: 04 New
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                      Quote: Trilobite Master
                      This is you writing, not me, you thought it up yourself
                      Why me? In Europe, the United States interprets the etymology of the Slavs in this way (from slave, not from fame or word)
                      Quote: Trilobite Master
                      It’s we who are used to the fact that God is “omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent” among the Gentiles. Some gods are stronger here, others are stronger.
                      Strange Novgorodians: they call it people with a foreign language and faith, but according to decent rumors (it’s not like Kievans), they complain that Putyata baptized them with a sword, and Dobrynya fire refused to plunge into the river three times ... In this situation, a tangle of contradictions turns out, whatever one may say.
                      1. sniperino 7 May 2020 17: 36 New
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                        Quote: sniperino
                        In Europe, the United States interprets the etymology of the Slavs in this way (from slave, not from fame or word)
                        Zaparka, on the contrary, is a slave from the Slavs.
                      2. Trilobite Master 7 May 2020 17: 50 New
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                        Quote: sniperino
                        In Europe, the United States interprets the etymology of the Slavs in this way (from slave, not from fame or word)

                        Familiar with such a hypothesis. laughing But, unfortunately for some, it is not considered in scientific circles. That is, in general. Maximum, some believe that the Greek "slave", "captive" comes from the name "Slavs" and that this hypothesis is not seriously considered. The exact origin of the word "Slavs" is controversial, but the vast majority of researchers agree that this is a self-name. So seriously consider the origin of the name "Slavs" from "slave" from the point of view of science - stupidity. And to broadcast this stupidity on the air can, again, either fools or provocateurs. To listen to both those and others, I do not recommend you.
                        The relationship of pagan denominations between themselves and with Christianity, absolutely intolerant of other religions, is also not worth it. Believers in Odin did not stop believing in Perun and vice versa. Believers in Christ destroyed another faith in the bud. Huge difference.
        6. sniperino 6 May 2020 13: 55 New
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          Quote: Trilobite Master
          therefore, our language is more different from the common ancestral language
          To a slightly greater extent.
          But this gently leads away from the topic "the prince and the squad were Germans, but there were no Germanisms."
          1. Trilobite Master 6 May 2020 14: 14 New
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            Quote: sniperino
            the prince and the squad were Germans, but there were no Germanisms

            Yes, and enough. And not just Germanism, namely Scandinavism. But, basically, these words are outdated, in modern Russian either are not used, or are used extremely rarely. In general, this is not surprising - the last regular contacts with the Scandinavians (hiring, dynastic marriages, etc.) ended with the collapse of the Old Russian state, and after the arrival of the Mongols, they generally communicated with each other only looking over the shield. smile
            Look at this article, it is interesting not only in terms of the number of borrowings, but also in terms of the areas in which these Scandinavisms penetrated. Very revealing.
            https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/tematicheskaya-klassifikatsiya-skandinavskih-zaimstvovaniy-v-russkom-yazyke/viewer
            1. sniperino 6 May 2020 15: 24 New
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              Quote: Trilobite Master
              Yes, and enough. And not just Germanism, namely Scandinavism. But, basically, these words are outdated, in modern Russian either are not used, or are used extremely rarely.
              It's not about modernity, but about annals, all the words are counted there. The text looked, not about that.
              1. Trilobite Master 6 May 2020 15: 50 New
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                Quote: sniperino
                about annals

                So most of them are taken from Scandinavism. In modern Russian, very little remains of them, and in the annals there is a sufficient amount. And this taking into account the fact that the earliest annals were written after the most active contacts with the Scandinavians were completed.
                1. sniperino 6 May 2020 17: 35 New
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                  Quote: Trilobite Master
                  And this taking into account the fact that the earliest annals were written after the most active contacts with the Scandinavians were completed.
                  Your position is understandable, but for me the prevalence of the language of the “ruling class” is too weak, since its development by dependent people is always somehow related to the increase of their status, as well as our lack of worship of the Scandinavian gods (you think the ruling class needed change your pantheon?). Louis II in 839 attributes the people to the Normans, i.e. to the place of residence, Nestor - to the Varangians, i.e. to the occupation, but the most important attribute of an ethnos is language (in Russian, these are generally synonyms); PVL states that "Slovenian and Russian language - one is." Leaving the Baltic with all relatives ("sineus") and squad ("truvor") in the Novgorod forests, from where their predecessors (not Russia) had recently been expelled, the tribe was more likely either Slavic, who understood the language and had a common pantheon with other Slavs, or ethnically heterogeneous and therefore - tolerant, like ear-flaps, later - Cossacks, where both Muslims and Buddhists fell.
                  1. Trilobite Master 6 May 2020 18: 26 New
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                    Before the advent of DNA examinations and extensive archaeological materials on Novgorod, Ladoga, Smolensk (second half of the XNUMXth century), one could somehow argue on this topic. Only argue, nothing more, in my opinion, since the names and dynastic ties of the first princes also testify to their deep Scandinavian ties unambiguously. On the side of the opponents of the "Scandinavian" Rurik - only "logic" and "common sense", or more simply, extrapolating modern concepts to the deep past and dancing with tambourines on the inconsistencies resulting from this.
                    DNA showed N1c in Rurikovich, with a subclade originating from the Uppsala region, archeology yields in the XNUMXthth centuries. the unequivocal result is to know the squad, which is basically the same thing, dressed like the Scandinavians, decorated themselves with Scandinavian pendants, fought with Carolingian swords made according to the Scandinavian model, and carried out burials according to the Scandinavian rite.
                    Well, as for the pantheon of gods, the pagans at all times were on the drum what the neighbors believe. It’s even fun - you yourself ask for help about Odin, and Perun’s neighbor in the ranks - you look at one of them and help, there are twice as many chances to get help. And who exactly helps - Perun or Odin - is not important. The main thing is to help.
                    1. sniperino 6 May 2020 18: 42 New
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                      Quote: Trilobite Master
                      the names and dynastic ties of the first princes also testify to their deep Scandinavian ties unambiguously.
                      Names change much faster and easier than language and religion: to beat Valhalla in those days, I believe few Viking people would have decided, and a complete change of language, being armed with the ruling layer, without any conflicts, like the one that happened with the previous ones Varangian roofers, being able to communicate with their circle in their native language, are less likely than bilingualism such as sub-French nobility in the Republic of Ingushetia.
                      1. sniperino 6 May 2020 18: 58 New
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                        PS And from bilingualism to the common people, the same “sharamygs” (Fr. Scher) and “scoundrels” (German profos) would fall on top only in a much larger volume, because in RI after Peter, foreign languages ​​were pushed into knowing as strangers, from time to time German came to him, and here - all the sineus with a rub smile
                      2. Trilobite Master 6 May 2020 19: 55 New
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                        There were precedents before that - remember the Franks in France and the Bulgars in Bulgaria. There were similar cases after the Normans in Normandy. The conquerors, or in the case of Russia, invited mercenaries, seize political power, transfer their name to public education and dissolve in its people, adopting its language and customs. Absolutely normal practice, and this is just immediately and offhand. To do this, only two conditions are needed - a higher level of social development among the conditionally conquered people and their own personal nobility, capable, on the one hand, of influencing the implementation of decisions of the supreme power, and, on the other hand, inclined towards a peaceful settlement of relations with this power. In this case, members of this nobility will inevitably be included in the circle of the new country's newcomer elite, and due to the "numerical advantage" it will inevitably absorb and digest this elite. Roughly speaking, in each next generation of pure “newcomers” it becomes less, and pure “old” more. Historical practice shows that three generations for complete assimilation of newcomers is quite enough.
                      3. sniperino 6 May 2020 22: 22 New
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                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        two conditions - a higher level of social development of a conditionally conquered people and their own personal nobility, capable, on the one hand, of influencing the implementation of decisions of the supreme power, and, on the other hand, disposed to a peaceful settlement of relations with this power.
                        By the way, I did not see Slavic Nobility in your picture among merchants and others. I now saw the writer S. Tsvetkov’s argument
                        The title of kagan was worn by the rulers of two states - the Khazars and the European Accident. The latter in 839 already disappeared from the political map, the Byzantines knew the Khazars well enough to confuse them with the people "growing up". Outside the nomadic world, the title "kagan" was applied to the rulers of only one people - the Rus, and sources note its use in two geographic regions that do not coincide with each other.
                        Byzantine Emperor Filaret calls the representative of the Rus Hagan, but not a king, as he would call a Scandinavian.
                      4. sniperino 6 May 2020 22: 37 New
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                        Quote: sniperino
                        Filaret calls the representative of the Rus Hagan
                        The cuckoo flew off and it was time for me to sleep. Goodnight!
                      5. Trilobite Master 6 May 2020 22: 59 New
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                        Quote: sniperino
                        By the way, I did not see Slavic Nobility in your picture

                        Everything is in the field. smile
                        Seriously, I imagine it approximately like this.
                        The role of the Slavic-Ugro-Finnish nobility in everyday life is seen by me as a presence not in the city center itself, but rather, directly on the territory of the clan that they head. The city of Ladoga is a trade and craft center, a transshipment point where merchants transfer from sea vessels to river vessels and vice versa. An exchange of goods takes place in it, something is done by artisans, fish are caught a little, but the main product, the subject of circulation, is fur and food is produced outside. By the time Rurik arrived, the Slavs had already begun the full transition from the tribal system to the state, so the concept of “tribal” or “tribal” territory was probably outdated, one could probably say “territory of individual chiefdoms”. So, the leaders of these chiefdoms were those same nobles who were able to withstand power in the city, but were ready to obey it. If they lived in the city all the time, they would simply be killed, just in case, that's all. But they, as suggested by “logic and common sense,” each lived on their own territory and together completely controlled forests, rivers, swamps, dew and all that the city could not exist without, and, most importantly, almost the entire population. Well, their yards, of course, they had in their cities, warehouses with goods or goods, sales representatives ... But they were constantly "on the territory", coming to the city only to resolve important issues, at "trading sessions", etc. .P.
                        So when I described my installation, I just did not see them there.
                        By the way, if the conversation was about summer time, then we would not have seen the prince there either - since the spring he and his retinue had left, most likely, to sell the polyuds to Birka or Uppsala, or even if Rurik and Rorik Frieslandsky are one person, some Dorestad. In winter, however, you won’t find him either - in fact, the Polyudye collected this very thing. Only in the spring - when he returned from the polyud, tired, but happy, or in the autumn, when he was only going to the polyud - peppy and angry. smile
                        Quote: sniperino
                        Byzantine Emperor Filaret calls the representative of the Rus Hagan

                        I have four articles about Rurik, in the first part there about it in more detail than I can explain in a comment.
                      6. sniperino 7 May 2020 12: 27 New
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                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        leaders of these chiefdoms
                        Elected? In my view, the closest analogy arises: the Cossacks in the village and nonresident ones are outside, only the "Cossacks" do not work in the field, and the "nonresident" (farmer-lapotniki) do not fight, but there are much more of them. The Lapotniks have tribal democracy, and the Cossacks have feudal lords. So?
                      7. sniperino 7 May 2020 13: 00 New
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                        Quote: sniperino
                        closest analogy
                        More distant in time (the Bronze Age) is the Varna system, but for some reason it looks more pumped. Regress ... One thought does not give rest, for which the brahmanas, ksatriyas and vaisyas learn the language of sudras and accept their gods.
                      8. Trilobite Master 7 May 2020 14: 22 New
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                        Quote: sniperino
                        Elected?

                        Not anymore. Most likely, already hereditary. If we are talking specifically about nobility, then this is a group of people that has strengthened in power and transmitted this power by inheritance.
                        Quote: sniperino
                        So?

                        Quote: sniperino
                        So?

                        Not quite.
                        In general, analogy is a very dangerous tool, requiring very delicate and careful use. At a certain depth of research, any analogy will be false.
                        The chiefdoms leaders undoubtedly had their own ... squads that could not be called, so some kind of armed group. They were more likely policemen than warriors, designed to solve internal issues, and not even suitable for repelling external aggression, not so much for carrying out aggressive campaigns.
                        And the city is the place where it is most convenient to stop the merchants and collect money from them. In the same place, it is convenient for merchants to discard part of the goods, to buy something new - hence, bargaining, warehouses. Change ships from one type to another - hence the security, the barracks. Repair the same ships, weapons, tools, make household utensils (and sell) - a craft. Every man has a wife, hence a house and a vegetable garden. There was wealth - those who wanted to take it appeared - walls appeared.
                        In the city, people are rabble, mainly either alien or born already in the city. Everything is focused on ensuring the functioning of the main source of income - transit trade. Most of the population are Scandinavians, but there are Slavic and Finnish courts, although there are fewer.
                        The center of power is inexorably shifting to the city, but has not yet completely shifted. The main "feudal lords" so far live outside its borders. Attempts by one of them to seize urban financial flows run into the resistance of others. Plus, the external threat is growing - the city is getting richer, rumors are creeping, the number of people wanting to profit is increasing. They strayed from some, but they will either return the next year themselves, or another who will come. Sooner or later, someone serious will come and be ill. Need a head, governor, defender. They chose a decent person, invited. He agreed, arrived, looked around and decided that, in general, the place was good, promising, declared himself the main one, killed all the dissatisfied, with whom he could not agree ... that's all.
                      9. sniperino 7 May 2020 16: 15 New
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                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        In general, analogy is a very dangerous tool, requiring very delicate and careful use. ... They chose a decent person, invited. He agreed, arrived, looked around and decided that in general the place was good, promising
                        Also an analogy! But note, the analogy with the postmodern manager, who safely takes his and several families of his colleagues to work in a large company somewhere not in Somalia, where there are no problems with translation and understanding, all value and worldview conflicts can be settled in a convertible currency and their professionalism is needed. In my opinion, this is precisely why it poses a danger that we understand it, but I fear the Viking, no; dangerous choice of character and situation in history. I insist that my proposed analogies of a Scythian with a Cossack will be much more understandable to a Viking than your crisis manager, safer ... smile He is not going to work on a contract, but forever.
                      10. Trilobite Master 7 May 2020 16: 50 New
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                        He, this called-up prince, whoever he was, most likely he had been to Ladoga several times before, was personally acquainted with many people, carried on business, established himself as a good warrior, a fair leader, naturally, could speak Finnish and in Slavic. Surely among the residents of the city, he and his retainers had not only acquaintances, but also direct relatives. For him, it was not "the end of the earth", some kind of Tmutarakan, but rather a proposal for promotion in the same company, if you use your terms.
                        Read G.S. Lebedev, he generally writes that by the XNUMXth century in the Baltic region, in his opinion, a special civilization (!) has developed, which he calls the Scando-Baltic. As for "civilization", I personally am not sure, but the fact that for conditional Rurik, no matter who he is, a change of residence from the conditional Uppsala to Ladoga did not significantly affect any aspects of his life, I have no doubt. It’s akin to moving from Tver to Moscow, even easier because he came with his team.
                        This is the case if Rurik was an ordinary ordinary leader of a small squad.
                        And if we assume that it was Roerick of Friesland - in general, the beauty is obtained. Enemy to the Swedes - times. A window to Europe, duty-free trade through Dorestad - two. He spent his childhood and youth on the border with the Slavic lands - the language and Narva of the Slavs means he knew - three. Let me remind you that Novgorod Slovenes are Western Slavs, not Eastern Slavs. Plus, an excellent pedigree (royal blood), a strong reputation as an active and aggressive ruler and huge connections in the Carolingian empire. The perfect candidate. Moreover, not married, which is important.
                      11. sniperino 7 May 2020 17: 39 New
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                        I have not heard your argument against “Slovenian and Russian language - there is one thing”, or interpretation. If I may.
                      12. Trilobite Master 7 May 2020 18: 17 New
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                        Quote: sniperino
                        Slovenian and Russian language - one thing is

                        I don’t remember from which particular record this phrase is and I don’t remember the context in which it was used. There is one more thing - I can’t vouch for verbatim, the meaning says that Slovenes and Varangians later became known as Russia. Too lazy to seek now.
                        Here, in fact, everything is also not too complicated and tense.
                        The earliest chronicle, from those that have come down to us, has as its photographer a text written at the beginning of the XNUMXth century. By that time, the final merger of the new Russia and local Slovenes and others had already taken place a long time ago, as the chronicler stated. What used to be called the Slovenian language is now called Russian. The fact that the Slovenian component in the Russian language is predominant is simply stated.
                      13. sniperino 7 May 2020 18: 25 New
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                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        I don’t remember from which particular record this phrase
                        PVL, in the very context of the calling of the Varangians. By the way, the new old interpretation of Sineus and Truvor confirms the lack of the Svej language in Russian. And Ediks often presented the girls with an unusual ear with names in the AWOL to girls. Where are these Ediki ?! - I remember such a question
                      14. Trilobite Master 7 May 2020 18: 30 New
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                        PVL exists in different editions, depending on the annals in which it is included.
                      15. sniperino 7 May 2020 18: 45 New
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                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        PVL exists in different editions
                        Edition, which is in 1 volume PDRL. no at hand
                    2. Trilobite Master 7 May 2020 18: 45 New
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                      Quote: sniperino
                      PVL, in that context

                      Found. smile
                      And the words ѣ ск nesk language ’and Russian one. From the Varangian, it is nicknamed Russia, and the first is more than words;

                      In general, in my opinion, everything is obvious. At first there were Slovenes, then they were nicknamed Rus from the Varangians, and the language remained the same - Slovenian.
                    3. sniperino 7 May 2020 19: 01 New
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                      Quote: Trilobite Master
                      from the Varangians they nicknamed Russia, but the language remained the same - Slovenian
                      The language remained the same for Rurik and the Varangians who came with him, or for the Novgorodians, who muttied each other at the veche over political disagreements (in this they did not concede to modern Kiev residents) and drove out the Scandinavian roofers?
                    4. sniperino 7 May 2020 19: 26 New
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                      Quote: Trilobite Master
                      everything is obvious
                      The version - the Slavs who went to the Varangians and got the name Rus from them, who rose in authority and returned to the predominantly Slavic city to restore order because of the lack thereof - somewhere collapses with obviousness?
                    5. sniperino 7 May 2020 19: 45 New
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                      Quote: sniperino
                      received from them the name (language?) Russia
                      + a portion of DNA over many years and a bunch of Scandinavian names, clothes and weapons
                    6. Trilobite Master 7 May 2020 20: 14 New
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                      Quote: sniperino
                      obviously collapsing?

                      Yeah. And indeed, with obviousness.
                      Ladoga, at the time of calling the Varangians, the city is more Scandinavian than Slavic. More than half of archaeological finds are Scandinavian. The burials are Scandinavian, the methods of laying logs in the crowns are Scandinavian (in the ancient layers), so the city, for the most part, was exactly that of Scandinavian. The neighboring villages are Slavic, the Lyubshan settlement, destroyed somewhere at the same time (two hypotheses: either these are traces of local strife when "the clan was born," or Rurik did it when he seized power) - Slavic, and Ladoga - alas. Novgorod then was not there at all.
                      Sources, as if they did not belong to them, are openly silent about some overseas campaigns of the Slavs in this region, although reports of such campaigns from the side of the Slavic Slavs are abundant. But then Lyutichi, Bodrichi, in short - the western part of the Slavic ecumenical. Even about the predatory campaigns of Estonians - Estonians! - evidence is available. About our ancestors - nothing. request
                      All terms used in Russian to mean everything related to sea voyages are Scandinavian, as are half of the terms used in the field of public administration.
                      Archaeologically, the construction by the Slavs of more or less large ships was recorded here only from the XNUMXth - XNUMXth centuries, as well as the appearance of professional military equipment - swords, helmets, chain mail, shields with umbrellas. Prior to this, only arrows, spears, knives, axes - objects, a maximum of dual purpose, and so - pure household. Finds of weapons - namely weapons - are single. Compared to the Scandinavians of the same period, they are simply negligible.
                      So to produce superfluous entities, such as to invent a campaign of the Slavs with a subsequent return, hardly makes sense.
                      As for the language, it seems to me that the reading of the annals is obvious - the language was called Slovene, now it is called Russian, although it is one and the same. As well as the Slovenes themselves are now called Rus, although this, again, is one and the same.
                    7. sniperino 7 May 2020 20: 22 New
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                      Quote: Trilobite Master
                      Ladoga, at the time of calling the Varangians, the city is more Scandinavian than Slavic
                      Where was Slavic the language of interethnic communication and the city itself had a Slavic name?
                    8. Trilobite Master 7 May 2020 22: 12 New
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                      Ladoga - the name is certainly not Slavic. Well, no way. smile Most likely Finnish. Alde yoki, it seems. A river with low banks. From this river the name was given to the city, from the city, much later - the lake, which in the time of Rurik was called Nevo.
                      The Scandinavians called Ladoga Aldeygya or Aldeyyugorg. What language was spoken in it - a question, I think, rather, in Scandinavian. They wrote, in any case, with Scandinavian runes, although this does not mean anything.
                  2. sniperino 7 May 2020 21: 19 New
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                    Quote: Trilobite Master
                    to invent a campaign of the Slavs with a subsequent return hardly makes sense
                    It’s not me who invented it, but I spoiled the insertion into the “same context” of a phrase written in a completely different way - after Rurik’s death. Thank! hi
                  3. Trilobite Master 7 May 2020 22: 15 New
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                    Quote: sniperino
                    It’s not me who invented

                    And by whom?
                    Quote: sniperino

                    insert in the "same context" of a phrase written in a completely different way - after the death of Rurik - I slap

                    Do not understand. request
                    Please explain exactly what phrase you have in mind and what context.
                  4. sniperino 8 May 2020 08: 37 New
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                    Quote: Trilobite Master
                    which phrase do you mean and what context.
                    The phrase "And the words ѣ ск один язык язык приз и и и" "" "" "in the context of the calling of the Varangians have been sitting confidently for more than 30 years. How it got there in the wake of public interest in this topic is a question ... I blamed the concept of such a “Slavic reverse” on B. Rybakov, but it seems to have nothing to do with it either. Yes...
                  5. sniperino 8 May 2020 09: 01 New
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                    Quote: sniperino
                    he has nothing to do with it, like
                    Fishermen:
                    Appeared in Kiev 300 years after the first mention of the "people of ROS", the Vikings began to be called Rus
                    His scheme is built through the influence on the annals of the Anglo-Swedish curators Nestor
                  6. sniperino 8 May 2020 10: 21 New
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                    Quote: sniperino
                    Fishermen
                    His presentation. On the website of the RSL, it is his “Origin of Russia and the Formation of its Statehood" under lock and key. Paganism of the Slavs, Russia-at least learn. Downloaded. I clarify.
                  7. sniperino 8 May 2020 11: 49 New
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                    Quote: sniperino
                    I clarify.
                    Fishermen:
                    The tribe of Roses, or Rus, was part of the Slavic massif in the first centuries of our era
                    In the VI – VII centuries. a powerful alliance of Slavic tribes formed in the Middle Dnieper. Foreigners called it “Ros” or “Rus”. The memory of the borders of this Russian Union was preserved until the XNUMXth – XNUMXth centuries.
                    By the middle of the XNUMXth century Russia began to be called as all the East Slavic lands that paid tribute to Russia, as well as mercenary units of the Varangians who took part in the affairs of Russia.
                    There is no "reverse". The next argument must be from historiography.
                  8. sniperino 8 May 2020 12: 21 New
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                    Quote: sniperino
                    There is no "reverse".
                    Fishermen:
                    the impact should then be considered not Norman, but Frankish, only “transferred” by persons of Scandinavian origin. In essence, this was the impact of Frankish statehood on state formation processes among the Eastern Slavs.
  • sniperino 7 May 2020 18: 01 New
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    Quote: sniperino
    with all relatives ("sineus") and squad ("truvor")
    The interpretation has changed ... For a long time I did not pick up checkers.
  • AllBiBek 6 May 2020 17: 15 New
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    How was it not?
    The Romanovs won the Dagmars very often, and they are the Danes.
    1. Trilobite Master 6 May 2020 18: 32 New
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      Quote: AllBiBek
      How was it not?

      In commercial quantities was not. I certainly don’t remember, but Guess of Wessex seems to be the last demobilistic chord in this matter. Then they switched to Polovtsy - it became more relevant to relate to them. And among themselves, the opportunity has already arisen to conclude marriages.
      Well, the Romanovs didn’t marry anyone. smile
      1. AllBiBek 6 May 2020 18: 41 New
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        So it is logical, since the political center has shifted to Kiev.

        By the way, to destroy the temples of the enemy gods and to overthrow their statues - it has always been from ancient times. A favorite pastime for almost everyone.
  • Astra wild 6 May 2020 16: 32 New
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    Mikhail "Trilobit", read Fomenko with Klesov or wait, Bar and others will put ALL of you on the shelves
  • Astra wild 5 May 2020 15: 34 New
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    Vyacheslav Olegovich, since you became our guide, I have questions
    -Dear guide, why specifically on October 28, 948? Indeed, with equal success, the date may be September 8 and any other
    - "Bloody ax", you mentioned, but did not show and did not say what he is known for? Either a desperate brave man - one or some maniac - another
    1. kalibr 5 May 2020 17: 51 New
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      This is not a question for me, but to the management of the museum - why did they choose this day. I did not ask them ...
      1. 3x3zsave 5 May 2020 19: 41 New
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        The museum staff probably calculated and Samhain came on October 28, 948.
        1. AllBiBek 6 May 2020 17: 24 New
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          He at that time - the beginning of November, the first three days seem.
          1. 3x3zsave 6 May 2020 17: 27 New
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            And there is. Later, Christianity tied the pagan holiday to the "day of all saints."
    2. 3x3zsave 5 May 2020 18: 03 New
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      My respect, Beautiful Stranger!
      Eirik the Bloody Poleax was at that time the king of Northumbria (York).
    3. Hantengri 5 May 2020 18: 18 New
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      Quote: Astra wild
      "Bloody ax", you mentioned, but did not show and did not say what he is known for? Either a desperate brave man - one or some maniac - another

      Both the "one" and the "other", but the "other" more. Scumbag, in general, even by Viking standards. He overwhelmed his brothers, for example. Björn the Sailor - definitely, by lawlessness, but about Olaf and Sigröd - a moot point, but it also turned out badly. I think, by the degree of frostbite, Eirik Haraldson is a worthy "brother by reason" to the above-mentioned Egil Skallagrimson.
  • Astra wild 5 May 2020 15: 43 New
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    "a slave trader is a very honorable occupation at that time," judging by the red braid, the slave trader brought the girl a Scandinavian. Was the Viking custom to sell each other into slavery?
    1. AllBiBek 5 May 2020 17: 25 New
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      Did not have.

      But the attitude towards women, whose pedigree they did not know, and if possible the presence of unnecessarily scrupulous relatives, indignant at the fact that their relative is already with a belly, and already a wife, and therefore - the mistress of a farm - give such a forehead with a butt or a blade axes - well, I would also use them in their place.

      And I would not disdain to collect a pack of old comrades, with whom the oars were hauled together and waved with axes on the subject of what lands my grown up son has the right to.

      And if they had called me to such a showdown for the same reason, they would have come too, and not alone, but with everyone who could. Especially if my neighbor has a grandson from my daughter and from his son (and both from local women).

      What would you do differently in such a situation?
      1. Astra wild 6 May 2020 15: 52 New
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        "What did you do like that in such a situation?" The question is complicated, but actually everything is confused
        1. AllBiBek 6 May 2020 16: 11 New
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          What's so complicated?
          They married local women quite willingly. They married, they did not have slavery as such.
          They are, first of all, farmers, the thinking there is appropriate. The household needs a wife, and that’s the point.
    2. kalibr 5 May 2020 17: 52 New
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      The red-haired woman is most likely Irish ...
    3. 3x3zsave 5 May 2020 18: 09 New
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      judging by the red braid, the slave trader brought the girl a Scandinavian.
      I would say that a woman has blond hair. Thus, the geography of its origin is very wide.
  • Free wind 6 May 2020 06: 26 New
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    Very interesting!!!!! I’ll allow myself a little bit of fun, hair combs, buckles, were made from bull horns, and now they are actually doing it. It is problematic to make a deer antler, or rather impossible, rather fragile material. The hunter has a Tuzik that is huge, or the hunter is very small, and why on the chain. After all, on the hunt it will ring, and a red deer, a very shy animal. Okay, put a chain near the booth, but only a belt when hunting. And I plunged myself into such a frying pan, from a plowing machine’s disk, welded a ring under the grill into it. It’s so interesting sometimes to fry something in it, together with barbecue.
    1. kalibr 6 May 2020 06: 33 New
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      Quote: Free Wind
      The hunter has a Tuzik that is huge, or the hunter is very small, and why on the chain. After all, on the hunt it will ring, and a red deer, a very shy animal.

      Observation and life experience helped to make many interesting discoveries!
      1. Astra wild 6 May 2020 06: 53 New
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        Vyacheslav Olegovich, well said
    2. AllBiBek 6 May 2020 16: 22 New
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      Nevertheless, somehow they were made. Google, for example, the "crest of Altendorf", it’s just for the period discussed here, and this is the antler.

      I immediately recall the crests of a deer antler at the Scythians. Not a frequent subject, very infrequent, but - there was a place to be.

      I’ll say more, they are also known by the Mesolithic, that is, they cut them with flint plates even then. He himself witnessed a find of this. Small, and the teeth are very short. For matted hair on the head - such a solution, but for a beard - kmk - very much so.