Victory announced early: Chinese engines for 5th generation fighters revealed a serious flaw

The other day, the Chinese media published a statement that now the fifth-generation serial fighters for the PLA air force are equipped with Chinese-made engines. Materials came out under the slogan "We did it!" But, as it turns out, victory in the aircraft engine industry was announced early.

We are talking about new versions of the WS-15 engines, the afterburner traction of which was designated at 18 tons. On this basis, it was concluded that now Chinese fighters are superior to the American F-22 fighter.

However, only a couple of days passed, and the euphoria of the Chinese media about equipping the J-20 with improved engines of local production noticeably died out. What is the reason?

It turns out that the engine thrust (not afterburning), which is about 14,9 tons, requires "unexpectedly" high fuel costs. It is noted that the total consumption in comparison with the AL-31F engines with which the J-20 fighters of the so-called first series are equipped is higher by an average of 27%. In afterburner, these indicators grow by another 9-10%. This despite the fact that the thrust of the engines varies (again, according to Chinese data on WS-15) by about 17%.

Thus, a significant lead is detected in terms of fuel consumption over indicators of increased traction. This is a serious flaw.

Hence, it follows that somewhat reduces the euphoria of Chinese journalists. A significant increase in fuel consumption rates leads to a decrease in the combat radius of these aircraft. If you keep the characteristics aviation J-20 engines at the current level, then in order to compensate for the combat radius, it will be necessary to increase the "onboard" fuel reserves. For obvious reasons, this will lead to deterioration on a number of metrics, including payload and maneuverability.

Apparently, after all, the Chinese media announced early on "incredible success." This is also underlined by the fact that just a few weeks ago in China they wrote about the importance of acquiring the Ukrainian Motor Sich with its actually Soviet scientific assets (unless, of course, those assets were already sold to a third party).

Comments

[Maks1995]

And no one has previously declared profitability.
Declared: done. That is, there is a cruising sound system (???) and space for upgrades ....
(for F 35, too, about 2 years ago, they said: “done.” A long afterburner like. And nothing, everything is fine)

[Sergey39]

The Chinese have to go the American way further - to begin mass production of new engines (like the F-35), in the hope of subsequently upgrading them.

[Vasyan1971]

Quote: Sergey39

The Chinese have to go the American way further - to begin mass production of new engines (like the F-35), in the hope of subsequently upgrading them.

The main thing here is to find patience and "convince" them to buy for real money.

[hydrox]

Americans do not convince, they simply order.
The trick is different: just yesterday there was material here that it is "not recommended" to drive the F-35 for a long time in afterburner mode, because this makes the engine unrepairable. A figure of 5 minutes of permissible afterburner got out of the discussion, but why? Run away?
Only in the Su-57 supersonic is the cruise mode - then who is the American pilot going to run away from in the F-35? Again, no one has heard that the ball is completely stuck with the umbrellas of American air defense systems, under which the American "drummer" can find refuge ...
Maybe it’s easier to press the lever of the catapult and surrender ... again, the catapults on these aircraft are very unsafe for the rescue operation.

[missuris]

can I link ?, I just saw about the tail and cover

[hydrox]

Sorry, I couldn’t find the material for the fast and the furious (I didn’t copy it), instead check out this:
https://oko-planet.su/politik/politikarm/584098-nelepoe-amerikanskoe-oruzhie-f-35-maloboesposobnyy-gemorroy.html

[Vasyan1971]

Quote: hydrox

Americans do not convince, they simply order.

"Convince" was in quotation marks.
Who can ORDER Chinese?
This is what we are talking about.

[Cyril G ...]

Are Pakistani Thunder buying exactly with Chinese engines or are they with Klimovsky engines?

The main problem of Ketai motors is low resource.

[Vasyan1971]

Quote: Cyril G ...

The main problem of Ketai motors is low resource.

This is not a problem of sellers, but of buyers.

[TermNachTer]

Are you suggesting the Chinese Ministry of Defense as "tolerated"?))) It's unlikely, they shoot for such things. In general, the Chinese are incorrigible optimists - the only problem has been solved, while their engine is one big problem. I really want to know - the assigned resource of these miracles - engines and real.

[Vasyan1971]

Quote: TermNachTER

Are you proposing as "endured" the Chinese Ministry of Defense?

Of course not. "Terpily" are those who, in addition to them, will buy this wunderwaffe. At the very beginning, it was about the "American way":

Quote: Sergey39

The Chinese have to go the American way further - to begin mass production of new engines (like the F-35), in the hope of subsequently upgrading them.

[Cyril G ...]

At the end of last year, there was a note that on the WS-10 of the latest model, the assigned resource was announced at 1200 hours. From across the ocean they maliciously hinted that it’s good if 900 comes out ... I repeat it already

[Tuesday]

In fact, it turned out 800 as far as I remember.

[Cyril G ...]

senks, quite realistic ........

[Vasyan1971]

Quote: Cyril G ...

From across the ocean they maliciously hinted that it’s good if 900 comes out ...

The usual thing. I have a declared 72 N • m force on a working screwdriver, and in kind - God forbid 32 scrape together. Not to mention the battery capacity ...

[TermNachTer]

Of course, such an engine is much more complicated than a helicopter - turboshaft. But the Chinese analogue of TV - 3 - 117, with an assigned resource of 1000 hours, rarely nurses 900, usually 700 - 800.

[D16]

on WS-10 of the latest model, the assigned resource is declared at 1200 hours. From across the ocean they maliciously hinted that it’s good if 900 comes out ...

The AL-31F still has 1000 hours. Already at 41m to 4000 raised.

[Cyril G ...]

Not certainly in that way.
Al-41FP (Su-30SM) has a resource assigned at 1500 hours
Al-41FM1 (Su-34) has a designated resource of 2000 hours

[D16]

Only not 41, but 31.

[Cyril G ...]

Oh! Excuse me. Zapororted. Of course AL-31FP and AL-31FM1

[Rostislav Prokopenko]

I read somewhere that the Chinese are actively building nuclear plants, but in Africa, but ours or the French are building them.
Now they will find someone to push and that's it

[missuris]

So the F-35 had no problems with the engine, there the tail and coating on supersonic fall off.

[Sergey39]

Chinese engines and American F-35s in general have problems. What does the tail have to do with it?

[missuris]

the F-35 has no problems with the engine, at least I have not seen anywhere else information that the Americans have problems with the dviglom, it still works fine with the F-22

[Cyril G ...]

On the F-22 is "119" Pratt Whitney, on the F-35 "135". They are not the same thing. Further development of ts

[Sergey39]

Quote: missuris

the F-35 has no problems with the engine, at least I have not seen anywhere else information that the Americans have problems with the dviglom, it still works fine with the F-22

Problems with the plane. And the details - with paws or tail - these are their problems and I feel violet.

[Liam]

Quote: Sergey39

Problems with the plane

At what altitudes?

[Sergey39]

Quote: Liam

Quote: Sergey39

Problems with the plane

At what altitudes?

The plane has more than a thousand unsolved problems, and more than 400 tons have already released them.

[Liam]

We should have their problems

[shonsu]

I completely disagree. Do you think they have less problems? I think a lot more. Here we have how much money they have. )))

[D16]

the F-35 has no problems with the engine, at least I have not seen anywhere else information that the Americans have problems with dviglom,

P&W expects to deliver the F135 below the cost of the F119, even though it is a more powerful engine. [13] However, in February 2013 a cracked turbine blade was found during a scheduled inspection. The crack was caused by operating at high turbine temperatures for longer periods than usual. [14] In December 2013 the hollow first stage fan blisk failed at 77% of its expected life during a ground test. It will be replaced by a solid part adding 6 lb (2.7 kg) in weight.
In July 2014 there was an uncontained failure of a fan rotor while the aircraft was preparing for take-off. The parts passed through a fuel tank and caused a fire, grounding the F-35 fleet. [25] During high g-force maneuvering three weeks before flight, there was excessive rubbing at the seal between the fan blisk and the fan stator causing the failure. The engine "flex" generated a temperature of over 1,000 ° C (1,900 ° F) in materials designed to fail at 540 ° C (1,000 ° F). Micro cracks appeared in third-stage fan blades, according to program manager Christopher Bogdan, causing blades to separate from the disk. The failed blades punctured the fuel cell and hot air mixing with jet fuel caused the fire. [26] [27] [28] As a short term fix, each aircraft is flown on a specific flight profile to allow the rotor seal to wear a mating groove in the stator to prevent excessive rubbing. (C) Wiki.
In short, and in Russian:
Hollow fan blades worked out only 77% of the required resource. The shoulder blades are no longer hollow and light. A heavy fan with large G numbers deviates from the axis and friction of the blades with the motor housing is enhanced. The problem is solved by limiting the permissible overload. So now no problem

[Vasyan1971]

Quote: missuris

So the F-35 had no problems with the engine, there the tail and coating on supersonic fall off.

Not. It was:

Quote: Sergey39

start mass production of new engines (like the F-35), hoping to subsequently upgrade them.

Klyuchnoye - "in the hope of later modernizing them."

[Putnik119]

Those. You don't know that F35 is prohibited to fly in supersonic mode, because does it fall apart? So you got a "cornman" at $ 100 million apiece and it's "all right"? No, gentlemen. I see here an attempt to translate the arrows from the American failure. Here is a conversation between an American and a Chinese: "And your planes are falling apart" - "And yours consumes 14% more fuel"! Uniquely comparable disadvantages for combat aircraft!

[Tuesday]

Interestingly, did he even understand what he said?

[peter rusin_2]

Of course nothing! Now even a supersonic flight for the FU-35 is recommended no more than a couple of three minutes, otherwise the design will fall apart!

[Mikhail m]

afterburner traction which is designated at 18 tons

Refine: Chinese tons.

[hydrox]

Can you tell me the coefficient for converting Chinese tons to European?

[shonsu]

One to two))

[Mastrer]

Optimistic however

[avg]

In terms of PR, the Chinese are not equal. And if it’s also a commercial competitor, then they will scam anyone regardless of decency.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: avg

As for PR, the Chinese are not equal

Roughly in terms of research, there is no equal to the "British scientists". ))

[Albert1988]

Quote: Stas-90

So writes the Times.

That’s all said ....

[niki233]

Quote: Stas-90

Or maybe we are here behind the shouts of "Hurray!" and admiration for our developments do not want to see what is happening in the world.
Meanwhile, as avia.pro writes:

According to the Syrian Arab News Agency (SANA - approx.ed.)
The Syrian military criticized the Russian radar facilities used by the S-300 air defense system and the Pantsir-S air defense missile defense system, stating that they were completely useless with respect to Israeli cruise missiles. As it turned out, the radars of these complexes are completely unsuitable for hitting such targets, however, unlike the Russian radars, the Chinese provide much higher efficiency - thanks to them, the latest Israeli attacks were repelled.

So writes the Times.

referring to avio is like English scientists!

[shonsu]

For sure! You quote type avia.pro what SANA wrote. all three sources are trustworthy. I’m better off. I read AIDS. )))

[knn54]

Can compensate
- reducing take-off take-off,
- reduction in acceleration and / or climb time.
In general, to work on the aircraft itself.

[Alexey Sommer]

Quote: knn54

Can compensate
- reducing take-off take-off,

Not understood...
What to compensate for?

[Vladimir_2U]

Duration of flight, of course, shorter take-off run - longer flight!

[Mikhail m]

Wider step - less wear on the boots. Sorry, boots are out of fashion, but the idea remains.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Mikhail M

but the idea remained.

Moreover, the idea has risen to a new, aviation level! )))

[Eug]

The wear of the boots is less, but the risk of tearing the pants is higher ...

[novel66]

or pinch something

[hydrox]

And for this you need to wear jeans underwear (the most fashionable even sew them from tarpaulin (tomorrow's fashion will be on the elephant skin!))!
Happy Holidays!

[Mouse]

Quote: hydrox

the most fashionable even sew them from tarpaulin

masochists? will rub the farm .... do not go to the grandmother ....

[hydrox]

And there will be used me-ya-ya-ya-racing such a fur pad (with wings!)
But for the armies of the northern flank of NATO, a diaper for 40 liters of carrying capacity in a Kevlar shell is recommended: "Saving our asses is the most important task of our states!"

[Mouse]

Quote: hydrox

Me-I-I-I-I-racing such a fur lining (with wings!

oh how many wonderful discoveries bring enlightenment spirit ....

[hydrox]

Happy Holidays!
When and gnawing, if not under the glass and in a good mood

[Mouse]

Your truth! mood is good! Happy Holiday !!!

[APASUS]

The Chinese media are on the path of a joke ........................... and you also say!

[Pvi1206]

the road will be overpowered ...

[Mountain shooter]

Quickly they ... and I looked into the water. Well, I do not believe in jumping over the abyss in two jumps ...

[askort154]

Thus, a significant lead is detected in terms of fuel consumption over indicators of increased traction. This is a serious flaw.

An aircraft engine has the following parameters: Size, weight, thrust, fuel consumption, resource, etc. One of the most important is the resource. Even We (the USSR and Russia) still lag behind world leaders in this. Therefore, China will for a long time be in the role of catching up. To create a modern aircraft engine is decades, even for countries that have a century-old basic technology platform for its creation.

[Cyril G ...]

Right! About 10 years ago I heard that the WS-10 engine finally reached a resource of 200 hours. Last year, China announced that it had reached a resource of 1200 hours. Import did not agree with them and said that no more than 900 hours. Our Al-41 has a resource of about 4000 hours.

[Courier]

Themselves, the same problems with the engines for Su 57

[Cyril G ...]

No. Our resource is many times higher. And the Americans are higher than ours .. Catch up really if the opponent just scored a bolt to improve

[gvozdan]

It is possible to fasten the afterburner thrust with an increase in consumption to any engine, unfortunately the sense of excess thrust of 1 ton is not enough if 1 ton of fuel is added to the mass of the aircraft.

[Cossack 471]

The Chinese are twisting everything with self-tapping screws. Apparently the self-tapping screws turned out to be the wrong system.

[Eug]

A very strange ratio of afterburner-18 tons. and non-afterburner-14.9 tons. traction. Two afterburners come to mind - 1st (which is conventionally not considered afterburner, but in fact it is) and 2nd already afterburner from all points of view (including from the Chinese). According to published data, the ratio of the rods of the "product 30" is 11 and 18 tons.

[shonsu]

In! I wanted to write the same thing, but I decided to read the comments first! And I wasn’t mistaken; you were ahead of me. The Su-57 Type 30 is expected to receive 18 tons in afterburner, and without afterburner only 11 tons. And here the Chinas have already announced almost 15 tons of afterburner traction with the same afterburner! Somewhere forgery in numbers, stopudovo.
But hell, nevertheless I hurried, did not read your comment to the end and repeated. But you forgive me, I won’t wash, it won’t hurt. )))

[Eug]

Over time, I hope it will become clear where the Chinese fooled. It’s not just that they increased the afterburner consumption, if I’m not mistaken, on the AL-31 without afterburner 0.67 and afterburner 2.2., But here is some obviously intermediate value. And the dimensions of the engine and its elements are unclear. It would be nice to study their data, but so far unrealistic ...

[D16]

Over time, I hope it will become clear where the Chinese fooled.

I can share my version . Formally, afterburning fuel is fed into the chamber behind the turbine. This is due to temperature limitations in the COP. But with the advent of new materials and technologies, KS and TVD allows increasing the fuel supply to the KS. It will naturally die out in FC, but this is not considered an afterburner. Hence the wild increase in fuel consumption in afterburner mode. The same trend is observed in new American engines. I'm talking about fuel consumption.

[Eug]

It is very likely that this is exactly the case. Did I understand correctly that part of the fuel in the compressor station does not burn and "flies" through the turbine blades, burning already in the FC? According to the consumption figures, it seems that it also turns out. Thank you, I didn't know this before.

[D16]

Did I understand correctly that part of the fuel in the compressor station does not burn and "flies" through the turbine blades, burning already in the FC?

If we take into account the tendency toward an increase in the length of the engine, and it can be traced very clearly (4.850 for the F-100, 5.160 for the F-119 and 5.590 for the F-135), then most likely they increase the length of the CS. So it can and has time to burn out. On the other hand, this event is clearly not conducive to increasing efficiency in cruising regimes. Maybe that's why Al-31-41F before afterburner is much more economical.

[Eug]

It turns out that we switched to a "two-stage" afterburner - one with a moderate increase in consumption by 30-40%, and a full one with a threefold .. very relevant.

[Barmaleyka]

However, only a couple of days passed and the euphoria of the Chinese media about equipping the J-20 with improved engines of local production noticeably diminished. What is the reason?

The reason is clear as God's day - Chinese engines

[gurzuf]

Something about the engine resource is silent.

[Boa kaa]

Quote: Stas-90

So writes the Times.

So she wrote about Novice too ... Don Fake News calls them.
But the Russian air defense, even amami fear and recognize the most powerful today.
About the Arabs. The Israelis always beat them, but as soon as the Soviet guys sat down at the remote controls, the Israelis (after getting in the face) stopped all flights for two weeks in order to realize: - "Why was that ???"
Therefore, as my supervisor said: Lame even get rich, he will not be the first to finish! And the Russians say: Do not feed the horse!
Although, in skillful hands, the rolling pin is a two-handed sword -
AHA.

[calm]

The main advantages of the 5th generation fighters:
- supersonic cruising mode (SCS);
- technology of radar and infrared stealth.
The J-20 does not have an engine capable of providing long-term supersonic sound in non-afterburning mode, as the Americans have (the Pratt Whittney F-119 and General Electric F-120 engines).
In addition, the use of axisymmetric nozzles of engines, ventral fins and PGO, located quite far from the wing, does not leave stone unturned from the presence of a 5th generation fighter in China. In principle, while there is only one such aircraft - F-22, and it has nothing to do with China.

[123456789]

Quote: gurzuf

Something about the engine resource is silent.

However, only a couple of days passed,

So we have not yet managed to determine the resource, while only the consumption

[shonsu]

Ahaha! Right! Resource next week will be determined and announced!
P.S. for those who do not understand, there are 168 hours in a week. )))

[avg avg]

Quote: TermNachTER

It’s unlikely that they will be shot for such things.

Do not tell me links to materials on the execution of Chinese designers? I'd like to get acquainted with the list of posts and, preferably, the names of the victims of totalitarian socialism with Chinese characteristics.
The general answer, such as Google, does not roll. Concrete is needed.

[bratchanin3]

Soviet scientific assets, together with key specialists, have long been working in Russia.

[tolmachiev51]

Chinese burned - a failure of the copy machine !!! Not everything is so simple in technology.

[Mario Alfonso]

Noticias reales muchas gracias!