Military Review

Victory announced early: Chinese engines for 5th generation fighters revealed a serious flaw

83

The other day, the Chinese media published a statement that now the fifth-generation serial fighters for the PLA air force are equipped with Chinese-made engines. Materials came out under the slogan "We did it!" But, as it turns out, victory in the aircraft engine industry was announced early.


We are talking about new versions of the WS-15 engines, the afterburner traction of which was designated at 18 tons. On this basis, it was concluded that now Chinese fighters are superior to the American F-22 fighter.

However, only a couple of days passed, and the euphoria of the Chinese media about equipping the J-20 with improved engines of local production noticeably died out. What is the reason?

It turns out that the engine thrust (not afterburning), which is about 14,9 tons, requires "unexpectedly" high fuel costs. It is noted that the total consumption in comparison with the AL-31F engines with which the J-20 fighters of the so-called first series are equipped is higher by an average of 27%. In afterburner, these indicators grow by another 9-10%. This despite the fact that the thrust of the engines varies (again, according to Chinese data on WS-15) by about 17%.

Thus, a significant lead is detected in terms of fuel consumption over indicators of increased traction. This is a serious flaw.

Hence, it follows that somewhat reduces the euphoria of Chinese journalists. A significant increase in fuel consumption rates leads to a decrease in the combat radius of these aircraft. If you keep the characteristics aviation J-20 engines at the current level, then in order to compensate for the combat radius, it will be necessary to increase the "onboard" fuel reserves. For obvious reasons, this will lead to deterioration on a number of metrics, including payload and maneuverability.

Apparently, after all, the Chinese media announced early on "incredible success." This is also underlined by the fact that just a few weeks ago in China they wrote about the importance of acquiring the Ukrainian Motor Sich with its actually Soviet scientific assets (unless, of course, those assets were already sold to a third party).
Photos used:
Flickr / sunson guo
83 comments
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  1. Maks1995
    Maks1995 1 May 2020 11: 58 New
    -2
    And no one has previously declared profitability.
    Declared: done. That is, there is a cruising sound system (???) and space for upgrades ....
    (For F 35, they also said about a year ago 2 years ago: “they did it.” It’s like a long afterburner. And nothing, everything’s fine)
    1. Sergey39
      Sergey39 1 May 2020 12: 44 New
      +4
      The Chinese have to go the American way further - to begin mass production of new engines (like the F-35), in the hope of subsequently upgrading them.
      1. Vasyan1971
        Vasyan1971 1 May 2020 12: 52 New
        +8
        Quote: Sergey39
        The Chinese have to go the American way further - to begin mass production of new engines (like the F-35), in the hope of subsequently upgrading them.

        The main thing here is to find patient and "convince" them to buy for real money.
        1. hydrox
          hydrox 1 May 2020 13: 11 New
          14
          Americans do not convince, they simply order.
          The trick is different: just yesterday there was material here that the F-35 "is not recommended" to go long afterburning, because of this the engine becomes unrepairable. The figure of 5 minutes of permissible afterburner got out of the discussion, but why? To run away?
          Only the Su-57 supersonic - this is a cruising mode - then from whom is the American pilot on the F-35 going to run away? Again, no one has heard that the umbrellas of American air defense systems are completely poked on the ball, under which the American "drummer" can find refuge ...
          Maybe it’s easier to press the lever of the catapult and surrender ... again, the catapults on these aircraft are very unsafe for the rescue operation. laughing
          1. missuris
            missuris 1 May 2020 13: 35 New
            +4
            can I link ?, I just saw about the tail and cover
            1. hydrox
              hydrox 1 May 2020 16: 18 New
              +1
              Sorry, I couldn’t find the material for the fast and the furious (I didn’t copy it), instead check out this:
              https://oko-planet.su/politik/politikarm/584098-nelepoe-amerikanskoe-oruzhie-f-35-maloboesposobnyy-gemorroy.html
          2. Vasyan1971
            Vasyan1971 1 May 2020 14: 00 New
            +2
            Quote: hydrox
            Americans do not convince, they simply order.

            "Convincing" was in quotation marks.
            Who can ORDER Chinese?
            This is what we are talking about.
        2. Cyril G ...
          Cyril G ... 1 May 2020 13: 12 New
          +2
          Are Pakistani Thunder buying exactly with Chinese engines or are they with Klimovsky engines?

          The main problem of Ketai motors is low resource.
          1. Vasyan1971
            Vasyan1971 1 May 2020 14: 01 New
            +4
            Quote: Cyril G ...
            The main problem of Ketai motors is low resource.

            This is not a problem of sellers, but of buyers.
        3. TermNachTer
          TermNachTer 1 May 2020 13: 33 New
          +6
          Do you propose that the Chinese Ministry of Defense "suffered" the Chinese?))) This is unlikely, they are executed for such things. In general, the Chinese are incorrigible optimists - the only problem is solved, while their engine is one big problem. I really want to know - the assigned resource of these miracles - engines and real.
          1. Vasyan1971
            Vasyan1971 1 May 2020 15: 00 New
            -1
            Quote: TermNachTER
            Do you propose the Chinese Ministry of Defense as a "patient"?

            Of course not. "Terpils" are those who besides them will buy this wunderwaffle. At the very beginning, it was about the "path of the Americans":
            Quote: Sergey39
            The Chinese have to go the American way further - to begin mass production of new engines (like the F-35), in the hope of subsequently upgrading them.
          2. Cyril G ...
            Cyril G ... 1 May 2020 17: 31 New
            0
            At the end of last year, there was a note that on the WS-10 of the latest model, the assigned resource was announced at 1200 hours. From across the ocean they maliciously hinted that it’s good if 900 comes out ... I repeat it already laughing
            1. Torak
              Torak 1 May 2020 18: 55 New
              +1
              In fact, it turned out 800 as far as I remember.
              1. Cyril G ...
                Cyril G ... 2 May 2020 00: 41 New
                0
                senks, quite realistic ........
            2. Vasyan1971
              Vasyan1971 1 May 2020 19: 30 New
              +2
              Quote: Cyril G ...
              From across the ocean they maliciously hinted that it’s good if 900 comes out ...

              The usual thing. request I have a declared 72 N • m force on a working screwdriver, and in kind - God forbid 32 scrape together. Not to mention the battery capacity ...
            3. TermNachTer
              TermNachTer 2 May 2020 08: 17 New
              0
              Of course, such an engine is much more complicated than a helicopter - turboshaft. But the Chinese analogue of TV - 3 - 117, with an assigned resource of 1000 hours, rarely nurses 900, usually 700 - 800.
            4. D16
              D16 2 May 2020 14: 21 New
              0
              on WS-10 of the latest model, the assigned resource is declared at 1200 hours. From across the ocean they maliciously hinted that it’s good if 900 comes out ...

              The AL-31F still has 1000 hours. Already at 41m to 4000 raised.
              1. Cyril G ...
                Cyril G ... 2 May 2020 18: 03 New
                0
                Not certainly in that way.
                Al-41FP (Su-30SM) has a resource assigned at 1500 hours
                Al-41FM1 (Su-34) has a designated resource of 2000 hours
                1. D16
                  D16 2 May 2020 18: 14 New
                  +1
                  Only not 41, but 31.
                  1. Cyril G ...
                    Cyril G ... 2 May 2020 18: 25 New
                    +1
                    Oh! Excuse me. Zapororted. Of course AL-31FP and AL-31FM1
        4. Rostislav Prokopenko
          Rostislav Prokopenko 1 May 2020 18: 58 New
          0
          I read somewhere that the Chinese are actively building nuclear plants, but in Africa, but ours or the French are building them.
          Now they will find someone to push and that's it wink
      2. missuris
        missuris 1 May 2020 13: 33 New
        +3
        So the F-35 had no problems with the engine, there the tail and coating on supersonic fall off.
        1. Sergey39
          Sergey39 1 May 2020 13: 38 New
          +2
          Chinese engines and American F-35s in general have problems. What does the tail have to do with it?
          1. missuris
            missuris 1 May 2020 16: 45 New
            +2
            the F-35 has no problems with the engine, at least I have not seen anywhere else information that the Americans have problems with the dviglom, it still works fine with the F-22
            1. Cyril G ...
              Cyril G ... 1 May 2020 17: 36 New
              +2
              On the F-22 is the "119th" Pratt Whitney, on the F-35 is the "135th". This is not the same thing. Further development of t.s.
            2. Sergey39
              Sergey39 1 May 2020 17: 36 New
              +1
              Quote: missuris
              the F-35 has no problems with the engine, at least I have not seen anywhere else information that the Americans have problems with the dviglom, it still works fine with the F-22

              Problems with the plane. And the details - with paws or tail - these are their problems and I feel violet.
              1. Liam
                Liam 1 May 2020 17: 41 New
                0
                Quote: Sergey39
                Problems with the plane

                At what altitudes?
                1. Sergey39
                  Sergey39 1 May 2020 17: 48 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Liam
                  Quote: Sergey39
                  Problems with the plane

                  At what altitudes?

                  The plane has more than a thousand unsolved problems, and more than 400 tons have already released them.
                  1. Liam
                    Liam 1 May 2020 19: 25 New
                    -2
                    We should have their problems
                    1. shonsu
                      shonsu 2 May 2020 02: 35 New
                      0
                      I completely disagree. Do you think they have less problems? I think a lot more. Here we have how much money they have. )))
            3. D16
              D16 2 May 2020 14: 18 New
              +2
              the F-35 has no problems with the engine, at least I have not seen anywhere else information that the Americans have problems with dviglom,

              P&W expects to deliver the F135 below the cost of the F119, even though it is a more powerful engine. [13] However, in February 2013 a cracked turbine blade was found during a scheduled inspection. The crack was caused by operating at high turbine temperatures for longer periods than usual. [14] In December 2013 the hollow first stage fan blisk failed at 77% of its expected life during a ground test. It will be replaced by a solid part adding 6 lb (2.7 kg) in weight.
              In July 2014 there was an uncontained failure of a fan rotor while the aircraft was preparing for take-off. The parts passed through a fuel tank and caused a fire, grounding the F-35 fleet. [25] During high g-force maneuvering three weeks before flight, there was excessive rubbing at the seal between the fan blisk and the fan stator causing the failure. The engine "flex" generated a temperature of over 1,000 ° C (1,900 ° F) in materials designed to fail at 540 ° C (1,000 ° F). Micro cracks appeared in third-stage fan blades, according to program manager Christopher Bogdan, causing blades to separate from the disk. The failed blades punctured the fuel cell and hot air mixing with jet fuel caused the fire. [26] [27] [28] As a short term fix, each aircraft is flown on a specific flight profile to allow the rotor seal to wear a mating groove in the stator to prevent excessive rubbing. (C) Wiki.
              In short, and in Russian:
              Hollow fan blades worked out only 77% of the required resource. The shoulder blades are no longer hollow and light. A heavy fan with large G numbers deviates from the axis and friction of the blades with the motor housing is enhanced. The problem is solved by limiting the permissible overload. So now no problem lol
        2. Vasyan1971
          Vasyan1971 1 May 2020 15: 04 New
          +2
          Quote: missuris
          So the F-35 had no problems with the engine, there the tail and coating on supersonic fall off.

          Not. It was:
          Quote: Sergey39
          start mass production of new engines (like the F-35), hoping to subsequently upgrade them.

          Klyuchnvoe - "in the hope of subsequently upgrading them."
    2. Putnik119
      Putnik119 1 May 2020 13: 02 New
      0
      Those. You do not seem to know that the F35 is forbidden to fly in supersonic sound, because does it fall apart? So they slurped a "corn" for $ 100 million apiece and is this "all right"? No Lord. I see here an attempt to translate the arrows from the American failure. Here's an American conversation with a Chinese: “And your planes are falling apart” - “And you consume 14% more fuel”! Definitely comparable flaws for military aviation!
    3. Torak
      Torak 1 May 2020 18: 53 New
      +2
      Interestingly, did he even understand what he said?
    4. peter rusin_2
      peter rusin_2 2 May 2020 14: 13 New
      0
      Of course nothing! Now even a supersonic flight for the FU-35 is recommended no more than a couple of three minutes, otherwise the design will fall apart!
  2. Mikhail m
    Mikhail m 1 May 2020 12: 05 New
    16
    afterburner traction which is designated at 18 tons

    Refine: Chinese tons.
    1. hydrox
      hydrox 1 May 2020 16: 41 New
      +1
      Can you tell me the coefficient for converting Chinese tons to European? laughing
      1. shonsu
        shonsu 2 May 2020 02: 36 New
        0
        One to two))
        1. Mastrer
          Mastrer 2 May 2020 05: 02 New
          0
          Optimistic however laughing
  3. avg
    avg 1 May 2020 12: 07 New
    13
    In terms of PR, the Chinese are not equal. And if it’s also a commercial competitor, then they will scam anyone regardless of decency.
    1. Vladimir_2U
      Vladimir_2U 1 May 2020 12: 34 New
      +9
      Quote: avg
      As for PR, the Chinese are not equal
      Something like the part of research is not equal to the "British scientists." )))
    2. The comment was deleted.
      1. Albert1988
        Albert1988 1 May 2020 14: 08 New
        +5
        Quote: Stas-90
        So writes the Times.

        That’s all said .... wink
      2. niki233
        niki233 1 May 2020 16: 53 New
        +4
        Quote: Stas-90
        Or maybe we are here behind the cries of "Hurray!" and with admiration for our developments, we do not want to see what is happening in the world.
        Meanwhile, as avia.pro writes:

        According to the Syrian Arab News Agency (SANA - approx.ed.)
        The Syrian military criticized the Russian radar facilities used by the S-300 air defense system and the Pantsir-S air defense missile defense system, stating that they were completely useless with respect to Israeli cruise missiles. As it turned out, the radars of these complexes are completely unsuitable for hitting such targets, however, unlike the Russian radars, the Chinese provide much higher efficiency - thanks to them, the latest Israeli attacks were repelled.

        So writes the Times.
        request

        referring to avio is like English scientists!
      3. shonsu
        shonsu 2 May 2020 02: 41 New
        +1
        For sure! You quote type avia.pro what SANA wrote. all three sources are trustworthy. I’m better off. I read AIDS. )))
  4. knn54
    knn54 1 May 2020 12: 10 New
    -4
    Can compensate
    - reducing take-off take-off,
    - reduction in acceleration and / or climb time.
    In general, to work on the aircraft itself.
    1. Alexey Sommer
      Alexey Sommer 1 May 2020 12: 24 New
      +6
      Quote: knn54
      Can compensate
      - reducing take-off take-off,

      Not understood...
      What to compensate for?
      1. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 1 May 2020 12: 35 New
        10
        Duration of flight, of course, shorter take-off run - longer flight! laughing
        1. Mikhail m
          Mikhail m 1 May 2020 12: 57 New
          12
          Wider step - less wear on the boots. Sorry, boots are out of fashion, but the idea remains.
          1. Vladimir_2U
            Vladimir_2U 1 May 2020 13: 25 New
            +2
            Quote: Michael m
            but the idea remained.
            Moreover, the idea has risen to a new, aviation level! )))
          2. Eug
            Eug 1 May 2020 13: 41 New
            +6
            The wear of the boots is less, but the risk of tearing the pants is higher ...
            1. novel66
              novel66 1 May 2020 14: 56 New
              +2
              or pinch something
              1. hydrox
                hydrox 1 May 2020 16: 47 New
                +3
                And for this you need to wear jeans underwear (the most fashionable even sew them from tarpaulin (tomorrow's fashion will be on the elephant skin!))! laughing
                Happy Holidays!
                1. Mouse
                  Mouse 1 May 2020 18: 48 New
                  +4
                  Quote: hydrox
                  the most fashionable even sew them from tarpaulin

                  masochists? will rub the farm .... wassat do not go to the grandmother ....
                  1. hydrox
                    hydrox 1 May 2020 22: 11 New
                    +2
                    And there will be used me-ya-ya-ya-racing such a fur pad (with wings!) laughing
                    But for the armies of the northern flank of NATO, a diaper of 40 liters of carrying capacity in a Kevlar shell was recommended :: "The salvation of our asses is the most important task of our states!" belay
                    1. Mouse
                      Mouse 1 May 2020 22: 18 New
                      +4
                      Quote: hydrox
                      Me-I-I-I-I-racing such a fur lining (with wings!

                      oh how many wonderful discoveries bring enlightenment spirit .... laughing
                      1. hydrox
                        hydrox 1 May 2020 22: 22 New
                        +2
                        Happy Holidays!
                        When and gnawing, if not under the glass and in a good mood
                      2. Mouse
                        Mouse 1 May 2020 22: 25 New
                        +4
                        Your truth! mood is good! Happy Holiday !!! drinks
  • APASUS
    APASUS 1 May 2020 12: 12 New
    +5
    The Chinese media are on the path of a joke ........................... and you also say!
  • Pvi1206
    Pvi1206 1 May 2020 12: 14 New
    +1
    the road will be overpowered ...
  • Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 1 May 2020 12: 56 New
    +5
    Quickly they ... and I looked into the water. Well, I do not believe in jumping over the abyss in two jumps ...
  • askort154
    askort154 1 May 2020 13: 02 New
    +5
    Thus, a significant lead is detected in terms of fuel consumption over indicators of increased traction. This is a serious flaw.

    An aircraft engine has the following parameters: Size, weight, thrust, fuel consumption, resource, etc. One of the most important is the resource. Even We (the USSR and Russia) still lag behind world leaders in this. Therefore, China will for a long time be in the role of catching up. To create a modern aircraft engine is decades, even for countries that have a century-old basic technology platform for its creation.
    1. Cyril G ...
      Cyril G ... 1 May 2020 13: 17 New
      +6
      Right! About 10 years ago I heard that the WS-10 engine finally reached a resource of 200 hours. Last year, China announced that it had reached a resource of 1200 hours. Import did not agree with them and said that no more than 900 hours. Our Al-41 has a resource of about 4000 hours.
  • Courier
    Courier 1 May 2020 13: 31 New
    -9
    Themselves, the same problems with the engines for Su 57
    1. Cyril G ...
      Cyril G ... 2 May 2020 00: 44 New
      0
      No. Our resource is many times higher. And the Americans are higher than ours .. Catch up really if the opponent just scored a bolt to improve
  • gvozdan
    gvozdan 1 May 2020 13: 33 New
    +5
    It is possible to fasten the afterburner thrust with an increase in consumption to any engine, unfortunately the sense of excess thrust of 1 ton is not enough if 1 ton of fuel is added to the mass of the aircraft.
  • Cossack 471
    Cossack 471 1 May 2020 13: 36 New
    +2
    The Chinese are twisting everything with self-tapping screws. Apparently the self-tapping screws turned out to be the wrong system.
  • Eug
    Eug 1 May 2020 13: 40 New
    +6
    Very strange ratio afterburner-18 tons. and afterburning-14.9 tons. traction. Two afterburners come to mind - 1st (which conditionally is not considered afterburner, but actually is one) and 2nd afterburner from all points of view (including and from Chinese). According to published data, the ratio of the rods "product 30" - 11 and 18 tons.
    1. shonsu
      shonsu 2 May 2020 02: 51 New
      +3
      In! I wanted to write the same thing, but I decided to read the comments first! And I wasn’t mistaken; you were ahead of me. The Su-57 Type 30 is expected to receive 18 tons in afterburner, and without afterburner only 11 tons. And here the Chinas have already announced almost 15 tons of afterburner traction with the same afterburner! Somewhere forgery in numbers, stopudovo.
      But hell, nevertheless I hurried, did not read your comment to the end and repeated. But you forgive me, I won’t wash, it won’t hurt. )))
      1. Eug
        Eug 2 May 2020 05: 49 New
        +2
        Over time, I hope it will become clear where the Chinese fooled. It’s not just that they increased the afterburner consumption, if I’m not mistaken, on the AL-31 without afterburner 0.67 and afterburner 2.2., But here is some obviously intermediate value. And the dimensions of the engine and its elements are unclear. It would be nice to study their data, but so far unrealistic ...
        1. D16
          D16 2 May 2020 13: 31 New
          +1
          Over time, I hope it will become clear where the Chinese fooled.

          I can share my version repeat . Formally, afterburning fuel is fed into the chamber behind the turbine. This is due to temperature limitations in the COP. But with the advent of new materials and technologies, KS and TVD allows increasing the fuel supply to the KS. It will naturally die out in FC, but this is not considered an afterburner. Hence the wild increase in fuel consumption in afterburner mode. The same trend is observed in new American engines. I'm talking about fuel consumption.
          1. Eug
            Eug 2 May 2020 15: 37 New
            0
            It looks like it is. I correctly understood that part of the fuel in the compressor station does not burn and “flies” through the turbine blades, already burning in the FC? In terms of consumption figures, it seems, too. Thanks, I didn’t know this before.
            1. D16
              D16 2 May 2020 17: 55 New
              0
              I correctly understood that part of the fuel in the compressor station does not burn and “flies” through the turbine blades, already burning in the FC?

              If we take into account the tendency toward an increase in the length of the engine, and it can be traced very clearly (4.850 for the F-100, 5.160 for the F-119 and 5.590 for the F-135), then most likely they increase the length of the CS. So it can and has time to burn out. On the other hand, this event is clearly not conducive to increasing efficiency in cruising regimes. Maybe that's why Al-31-41F before afterburner is much more economical.
              1. Eug
                Eug 3 May 2020 06: 40 New
                0
                It turns out that we switched to a “two-stage” afterburner - one with a moderate increase in consumption by 30-40%, and a full one with a three-fold .. If at the same time, for a moderate afterburner, you can refuse a foreburner for a full afterburner - you can significantly reduce the total engine length, which for LMFS very relevant.
  • Barmaleyka
    Barmaleyka 1 May 2020 14: 00 New
    -1
    However, only a couple of days passed and the euphoria of the Chinese media about equipping the J-20 with improved engines of local production noticeably diminished. What is the reason?
    The reason is clear as God's day - Chinese engines
  • gurzuf
    gurzuf 1 May 2020 16: 42 New
    0
    Something about the engine resource is silent.
  • Boa kaa
    Boa kaa 1 May 2020 17: 54 New
    +3
    Quote: Stas-90
    So writes the Times.

    So she wrote about Novice too ... Don Fake News calls them. yes
    But the Russian air defense, even amami fear and recognize the most powerful today.
    As for the Arabs. The Israelis always beat them, but it was worth the Soviet guys to sit at the consoles, and the Israelis (after getting in the face) stopped all flights for two weeks at all to realize: - "What was it ???" belay
    Therefore, as my supervisor said: Lame even get rich, he will not be the first to finish! And the Russians say: Do not feed the horse! am
    Although, in skillful hands, the rolling pin is a two-handed sword - smile
    AHA.
  • calm
    calm 1 May 2020 18: 43 New
    +2
    The main advantages of the 5th generation fighters:
    - supersonic cruising mode (SCS);
    - technology of radar and infrared stealth.
    The J-20 does not have an engine capable of providing long-lasting over-the-air supersonic sound like the Americans have (Pratt Whittney F-119 and General Electric F-120 engines).
    In addition, the use of axisymmetric nozzles of engines, ventral fins and PGO, located quite far from the wing, does not leave stone unturned from the presence of a 5th generation fighter in China. In principle, while there is only one such aircraft - F-22, and it has nothing to do with China.
  • 123456789
    123456789 1 May 2020 19: 07 New
    0
    Quote: gurzuf
    Something about the engine resource is silent.

    However, only a couple of days passed,

    So we have not yet managed to determine the resource, while only the consumption
    1. shonsu
      shonsu 2 May 2020 02: 57 New
      +1
      Ahaha! Right! Resource next week will be determined and announced! lol
      P.S. for those who do not understand, there are 168 hours in a week. )))
  • avg avg
    avg avg 2 May 2020 05: 15 New
    0
    Quote: TermNachTER
    It’s unlikely that they will be shot for such things.

    Do not tell me links to materials on the execution of Chinese designers? I'd like to get acquainted with the list of posts and, preferably, the names of the victims of totalitarian socialism with Chinese characteristics.
    The general answer, such as Google, does not roll. Concrete is needed.
  • bratchanin3
    bratchanin3 2 May 2020 14: 34 New
    -1
    Soviet scientific assets, together with key specialists, have long been working in Russia.
  • tolmachiev51
    tolmachiev51 2 May 2020 18: 53 New
    -1
    Chinese burned - a failure of the copy machine !!! Not everything is so simple in technology.
  • Mario Alfonso
    Mario Alfonso 3 May 2020 05: 27 New
    0
    Noticias reales muchas gracias!